BosNet INTERVIEW: Senator Bob Dole (BHT)
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editor\'s note: the following interview with former US Senator, Bob Dole, was conducted by BHT journalist Envera Selimovic, to whom we\'re grateful for contributing this text
Washington, D.C. September 16, 1999
ENVERA SELIMOVIC: Senator Dole, for some people in Bosnia since the war, you have been like a member of their families. Your words for them were more than hope, and certainly they are grateful to you.
But Senator, Bosnians don\'t know much about what was really happening here in Washington...what kind of different \"war of persuasion\" Senator Dole was fighting...and what kind of man that lonely fighter was.
I thank you for this great opportunity to convey a message to the people in Bosnia...and the possibility to reveal some details about past times, and about yourself.
For beginners, what are you doing nowadays? What kind of office is this?
SENATOR DOLE: Well, I am in a law office right now. But I do a lot of other things. One thing I do is chair an International Commission on Missing Persons...where we are still looking for 20-to-30-thousand missing in Bosnia, some in Serbia, some on Croatia. And I have been over there...8 or 10 times in the past year-and-a-half. Haven\'t been to Sarajevo recently, but ah...I have also been very active in Kosovo. [I\'ve] tried to be helpful to the Kosovars. So we do that, plus a number of other things.
But...I remember meeting Mr. [Haris] Silajdzic, years ago in my Senate office...and he in effect told me what was going to happen. He spelled it out, almost like it happened. And nobody would listen. Or, a few of us would listen. The Administration didn\'t listen. But there were some of us, in the Congress, Republicans and Democrats, myself and Senator Lieberman, particularly in the Senate...who understood, if we didn\'t do something-lift the arms embargo, let the Bosnians defend themselves-all these bad things would happen. And they all happened.
Those who analyze Bob Dole say that you bear profound scars of your childhood poverty and wartime experience. Some people think that you have that deepest compassion for the weak and the helpless...since a long time ago you were one. Does that help you to understand Bosnians, who once suffered in their solitude?
I think probably it does. I mean I think, obviously, when you saw what Milosevic was doing, way back in the early \'90s, in preparing... And it was President Bush who didn\'t do much. Then there was President Clinton who didn\'t do much. And it wasn\'t until we had 69 out of 100 Senators on our side that the Clinton Administration changed its policy. But the suffering...I mean every day, every day...and the misery of the cold and lack of food, lack of fuel...ah...certainly has an impact, certainly on me, and I think most Americans. Even though many, probably, didn\'t know where Bosnia was, or Sarajevo was...they might have known about Sarajevo because of the Olympics...
You have been involved since the early \'90s. Everyone remembers your assertiveness about Bosnia pushing to lift the arms embargo. On July 26, 1995, the Senate passed the resolution. But it had lots of preconditions. The impression was that you got \"cold feet,\" and probably became afraid about what would happen if the embargo was lifted and weapons were not yet in Bosnia. Would you comment on that?
Oh...I think we felt pretty strongly about the need to do that. I mean we knew we were fighting the [Clinton] Administration. But many of my colleagues, and there were Democrats as well as Republicans, this was bi-partisan, 69 Senators out of 100, saying, \"Let\'s lift the arms embargo.\"
We knew that some arms were getting through, in any event. We understood that there are ways to get arms to Bosnia. But, our view was that that was a basic human right. It\'s in the U.N. Charter: The Right to Defend Yourself. You are talking about people\'s lives, their families. And the right to defend their homes. And they didn\'t have that right. It didn\'t make any sense to me. It doesn\'t make any sense to anyone. I don\'t care whether you are Bosnian-Serb, or whatever. You ought to have a right to defend your home and your family.
In summary then, the impression was that you were much more ready to intervene in the Bosnian tragedy. Senator Dole, you may remember that candidate Clinton also used that kind of rhetoric. But when he became the President, he had a lot of excuses. Do you believe that if you were the President you would have intervened earlier, and that Bosnia would have been a different place?
I think so. I think it\'s not ...we wouldn\'t have had to intervene if we lifted the arms embargo. That was our argument. Why not let people defend themselves? They are not asking for U.S. troops. They are asking for weapons, the right to fight for themselves. To fight for their lives. And that was the argument I made...and the argument that Senator Lieberman, a Democrat, made. And finally, you know, we had 40 votes...45-votes, 50-votes...it finally got up to 69 votes. But neither the Clinton Administration, nor the Bush Administration, in my view, did the right thing.
On the other hand, Senator, you supported the President on sending troops...the most unpopular measure...
When I was running for President, too. Not a very popular thing to do. But, it seemed to me, that once the Commander in Chief, the President, makes that decision, that\'s the decision. And whether you are running against him for office, or whatever, you support it.
I was impressed that even though he was your political enemy you … took his side. But, at that time, you said \"We had better options\"... What options were you talking about?
Well, we frittered [wasted] away those better options. That was lifting the embargo...and more direct assistance. We were playing games...and you know, it\'s not only Milosevic, but you got Tudjman to be concerned about, too-Croatia. And you know, I have visited with both Milosevic, Tudjman and Izetbegovic...and I hope that ...the Dayton Accords stopped the fighting, that\'s about all...not many good developments since...but I think there is still a hope. We look for more democracy, less corruption, if there is corruption, opening up Sarajevo. I think Izetbegovic makes a mistake when he doesn\'t let Serbs return to Sarajevo. How are you going to open up the city if the Bosnian leadership won\'t open up the city? How do you get others to cooperate?
And we all know that it was caused, initially, by Milosevic. And we know what a dark hole the Republic of Srpska is. And we ought to be out there arresting Karadzic and other war criminals. So there\'s a lot to be done. And I am afraid that the American people...and the others who support Bosnia...are going to lose interest, unless there are some changes.
Bosnia is peaceful, but peace is fragile...
Very fragile...yes...
I would like to ask you about something else. Richard Holbrooke just got back from the Balkans...and he says that the Muslims can\'t go to Republika Srpska...and probably Izetbegovic would say that \"It is hard to push people from Sarajevo because they don\'t have a place to go.\" That\'s almost like a Catch-22. What is your overall impression of Izetbegovic and Bosnian politicians...and on the other hand, Tudjman and Milosevic?
Well, there is not much comparison. I mean, obviously, Milosevic was the aggressor. No question about it. He started...he sent signals, over a decade ago, in Kosovo...when he disbanded their legislature, and did all the things that he did. And that was a signal that Silajdzic and others immediately understood. They knew this was the beginning...the breakup... of Yugoslavia. And instead of a rotating presidency, Milosevic wanted all...Greater Serbia...whatever.
So I think, Izetbegovic, you can\'t compare him with Milosevic. I like the President [Izetbegovic]. I hope he\'d be more forthcoming. I mean I think he has an opportunity to exert real leadership. If he made some bold moves, and stood up for democracy, liberty, anti-corruption, he would, I think, provide the leadership needed to solve these problems.
Senator, we have Kosovo and Bosnia full of NATO troops. What would happen if NATO leaves?
(Laughter) You know when President Clinton sent troops to Bosnia, said, \"One year.\" Well, obviously, everybody sort of snickered [laughed] at that. They knew it probably wasn\'t accurate. So now it has been, what, four years?
Definitely...
Kosovo...it\'s going to be a long time. And again, if there is progress being made...the American people, and the taxpayers, and the politicians, will accept that. But if it\'s just...if everybody is standing still, standing in place...just because America\'s there: \" Please send money...please send troops, please send this...we can\'t solve out problems\"...I think there\'s going to be...when we have a new president, in the Year 2000, there age going to be some hard decisions, for either him, or her to make.
I would like to talk about that later. Looking to the future, what do you think the Congress is going to do...and, of course, what is going to happen if the next President is a Republican?
Well, you know, Congress is always looking ...you know they claim that there is not enough money...and it\'s always easier to say, \"Well, let\'s cut the funds in Bosnia...\" I mean, [rhetorically] \"Nobody knows anything about Bosnia.\" \"There are not many Bosnian-Americans\" and...\"We can spend it somewhere else.\" I am not saying that is what will happen, but that\'s always a thought. I know what the thought-process is.
It\'s like foreign aid. Not many Americans support foreign aid. And this [Bosnia] is, in effect, foreign aid. You know, you can say, \"military aid,\" or whatever, or NATO. But...the next election is only about 14-months away...and I do believe, just trying to be objective, there will be a Republican President elected. But again, much can change.
We have this fellow named [Patrick] Buchanan, who is talking about being the Reform [Party] candidate, which would hurt the Republican candidate. I hope he doesn\'t do that, but it is still a long way to go.
Having been in politics for two-thirds of your life, can you tell us where do you think America is heading and what do you think the important trends are in American foreign policy? You mentioned that Americans don\'t care that much about problems in Europe, or sending aid...that they somehow got sick and tired of helping all the time...
I think it\'s a little easier to sell them on Europe. Let\'s take East Timor, where there is problem now. I think the American would say, \"Where is it. We don\'t know where it is. It\'s part of Indonesia. It\'s near Australia. Don\'t do anything...\" That\'s what I think the majority feel.
Plus, we can\'t do everything. We can\'t be everywhere. We can\'t be the world\'s police force, the United States. Unless, it\'s in our national interest.
But I think the former Yugoslavia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Croatia, Kosovo...this is in our interest. That\'s part of...there have been a lot of wars started there. And, also NATO has an interest there...and we have strong ties to Europe. But I think the American people say, \"Well, why don\'t we spend money for people who need it at home.\"
But right now, I think it is up to the people who are there [Bosnia] to provide the leadership...to encourage the American people to continue their efforts, and let the troops stay a while longer...and provide additional funds.
Can we talk about the Clinton Doctrine? Or, was it just an accident that the American Administration, under Clinton, took action in Bosnia....
I think he did it because we were getting enough votes to lift the arms embargo. I think that\'s when he changed his policy...after the United States Senate voted 69 to 20-some, to lift the embargo, which we thought made a lot of sense. And I remember visiting with Prime Minister [John] Major [U.K.] in London, trying to convince him, but the British didn\'t want to lift the embargo. And I think they were very close allies, and always have been. But we went through this long period where NATO, the United Nations, the so-called \"Dual Key Approach\"...that nobody ever understood...and you know, I think the most we ever did was knock out [shelled] a truck, or something. And we were, in effect, in the way...the NATO forces were in the way...the UN forces were in the way...we weren\'t providing any protection to Bosnia.
Having said that, I did agree with President Clinton. I think the troops are there...they ought to stay...continue to be there...for a time, but not forever, of course.
Is it fair to say that there is not much difference between the Clinton and the Dole approaches...they say that under the skin, deep in your hearts, both of you are pragmatists? How can you assess those, let\'s say, descriptions?
I\'m not here to criticize President Clinton, but...I mean, initially, I thought we should do something...that\'s not to send American troops...that\'s to give people the right to defend themselves. President Clinton, you know, dragged his heels, for years, until we finally had the votes. Now he didn\'t have a policy. I think the policy was forced on the President. Because he saw that Congress was going to overturn his policy...and his policy was to, sort of, do nothing, play around with the United Nations...and that\'s not always the best thing to do.
Senator Dole, I would like to ask you about your character, if you don\'t mind. The press was not gentle on you, most of the time...what is the greatest misconception about you?
Well the press in American tends to be very liberal. And I think 9 out of 10 people who cover Congress are Democrats, they vote for Democrats. So, you start off at a disadvantage. But I have a good relationship, generally, with the press. You know, I keep my word. I return my calls. I\'ve always been fair with the press. Been accessible. But, let\'s face it. They have different philosophies. And a lot of things I did probably deserved criticism. But it\'s a known fact that in America, the media tends to be liberal and Democratic.
I would like to ask you about your mother...in coming to the question about the most influential person in your life. Or the most influential politician...First if you could comment about your childhood your mother. It is somehow strange that American politicians and American presidents are talking, most of the time, about their mothers...
Well, mothers and fathers... I think your mother\'s always different. I mean she\'s always there, minute by minute, second by second. Your father\'s not there that much. But they both have an influence. And we lived...we grew up living in a basement apartment. We didn\'t have any money. My father was a working man...which is fine. He enjoyed it. Very proud of it. Wore his overalls [work pants] to work everyday for 42-years. Working with farmers. My mother went out and sold sewing machines. Taught sewing lessons. So we understood that we had to work together as a family. I had one brother who is now deceased, and two sisters who are still living. And you know, grew up in a little town, not unlike little towns in Bosnia. But it\'s home, and there are a lot of good people there and so I don\'t have any.... I think my mother and father were a great influence.
They would say that they are proud of you, even though it is kind of hard for you to talk about that time, I believe…Who, among politicians, was the most influential?
Eisenhower! Eisenhower\'s my hero. I mean in World War II, he was our commander. And, of course, he lived in Kansas, the place I\'m from. And, he sort of brought me into the Republican Party. I mean I didn\'t know whether I was a Democrat or a Republican. But he was, I think, somebody you could trust. I think he had that, sort of...people in the military...have sort of an attraction to people in America. It may be the same in Bosnia. The leaders and the military. But in addition to that, he was, I think a good president. And I have read about everything I could read about Eisenhower. But the bottom line is, you could trust him. You could trust him, and character was important. And accountability, and honesty, and hard work. And that\'s what people like wherever you live. Whether you live here. Whether you live in Bosnia. Whether you live somewhere else.
\"Trust\" is the word you are using often...President Nixon was important for you, on your...let\'s say rise to prominence. How would you characterize those days? That was important for you...
Very important...and I had a good relationship with President Nixon. He selected me as the national [Republican] Party Chairman in \'71. He did things that he shouldn\'t have done. But in the end, you know when he died; he had been rehabilitated...because he...never gave up. It\'s like [former British Prime Minister Winston] Churchill said, \"Never, never, never, never...give up.\" And he never gave up.
And I remember him coming back to Washington after he resigned as President. The first one ever. And coming back and speaking to Republican Senators, Democratic Senators, and he...got into as much about foreign policy as anybody I have ever known.
Senator, you have never said that you were religious, even though you are very often described as a Methodist. What keeps you going?
Well, I have got a lot of energy. I do believe in God, obviously, but you know, my dad used to tell me when he sort of retired, ...it\'s pretty hard when you are an active person to stay home. Every day take out the garbage and sweep the walks. You know...you get old that way. You have got to keep doing something. That\'s why people are living longer. They are out there running around the block, or running around the farm, exercise, lifestyle...and at 76, I am still very healthy. I travel a lot. You know, I don\'t feel that age, but, you know, I guess you do get older.
Now it is time to talk about your \"better half.\" Is she your everything? I mean, if politics is your life, is it fair to say that your wife, Elizabeth Dole, is beyond that?
Oh, no question! In fact, on reason I was late, is that I was talking to Elizabeth. We were talking about her campaign [for President]...and about some things that she is going to be doing this next week. Talk about somebody with faith, and commitment, and discipline. I mean she\'s got it.
You believe in women. Your long-time Chief of Staff, was Shiela Burke. Your speechwriter Mary Will, your assistant for the Balkans...
Mira Baratta, yes...
...a Croatian-American...
The first secretary of the Senate I appointed was a woman... Because my view is it shouldn\'t be based on gender, ethnicity, color.... It ought to be based on your skills.
Senator, it is not the rule. Women still face the so-called \"glass ceiling.\" What chances has Elizabeth Dole, compared to the other presidential contenders?
Well, she runs second in all the polls, and...You know, George Bush has raised a lot of money...and has got a lot of press. There was a piece in the Washington Post about: Why Not More Press for Elizabeth? Why isn\'t there more coverage for this qualified woman? Well, I think it\'s because she is a Republican woman. If she were a Democratic, liberal woman, she gets lots of press coverage. But having said that, I think the press is attracted to Elizabeth, regardless of their philosophy. I\'m kidding there...
But she\'s out there working every day. I know she\'s working today. Supposed to be in Boston today, but she got rained-out. So...one day can be a lifetime in politics. You may be on the top of the world today, and tomorrow, they\'ll say, \"Who was that guy?\"
Senator, failure is not something people normally feel comfortable talking about in any country, especially here in America. You ran three times for President and now you are totally aware that you can be up and you can be down...
It\'s more fun being up...
...but you are not offended, or afraid of facing defeat. In hindsight what went wrong...what would be your best advice to Elisabeth?
What went wrong in our campaign...maybe I wasn\'t the best candidate...I think I did a pretty good job...but we didn\'t have the money. We had a fellow named Steve Forbes, who spent millions beating me up in the primary. And President Clinton didn\'t have an opponent, so he had lots of money. The unions had a lot of money. The Chinese had a lot of money. And that all came at me, too. So, I don\'t know...I think the economy was good and President Clinton is very good on television. He\'ll tell you anything you want to hear...and anything the polls say is popular. But I think when people look back on it they will say, \"Well, maybe we should have voted for Bob Dole, maybe character is important...and trust.\" But I ...when I lost, I accepted it. It\'s my responsibility. I haven\'t spent my three years out criticizing President Clinton...and you have to move on with your life. I think I learned that in World War II when I was in the hospital for three years...and you !
can\'t say, \"Well it\'s over...Why me?\"
You are not giving up....
NO, NO!
...You are not a quitter.
I\'m going to be the first \"First Man\" in America...
Definitely that would be good news for Bosnians...
Yes, it would be good news... Maybe I\'d be the Ambassador.
Having in mind that you are Chairing the Commission on Missing Persons, you are the last hope for some people in my country. Do you believe that your Commission can do certain things...bearing in mind that it is so hard with the different parties and the different politicians over there?
We have made quite a bit of progress, but it is very, very difficult. It\'s going to take a long time and I knows some of...you know, I have met with some of the mothers, and most of them are peasant people. Whether in Serbia, or Croatia or Bosnia...and of course, most of the people who are missing are Bosniaks.
And it\'s very emotional. Because they think that because we are Americans we can find their sons...and they are going to be alive. And there is very little hope of that. But we do owe it to the families, just as we owed it to families in Vietnam...American families...so they can bring closure, so they can say, \"My son is gone, I\'m sure this is my son, or sons.\" I mean there are some people who lost two, three, four or five children.
Getting back to Bosnia...if we are defined as much by what we have lost as by what we have gained, what is your opinion about how the war shaped people...and politicians in my country, regardless of how they feel or picture themselves winners or losers?
I probably wouldn\'t be the best one to answer that question, but we have to keep in mind...because people forget so easily...and I guess that\'s human nature. We move on. We don\'t think about the past. But there are 250-thousand innocent people who lost their lives. And mostly women and children, and older men. Vulnerable groups of people. And that was a terrible price for Bosnia to pay. And it should have...I\'m sure it did have an impact on the leadership. And they never want it to happen again.
And that\'s why I am so hopeful that they are going to continue, on a much faster pace, to, make the right steps to democratize, not only Bosnia, but the other places as well. And, some say it won\'t happen until we have a new generation of leaders....Milosevic, Tudjman...Izetbegovic... Maybe they\'ll be gone. Maybe others can cooperate. It also means that we have to have a presence there, and provide some leadership. I mean, you know leadership doesn\'t always cost money. Just have to, by example, provide leadership.
Talking about leadership, we still have Milosevic in power, even though some people think that this is the closest moment for Milosevic and Tudjman leaving. What is your best prediction: Balkans, in 2004?
I think there will be new leaders in Croatia and Serbia. Maybe Bosnia, too. Izetbegovic is what, how old is he?
Close to your age...
I\'ve heard that he\'s in pretty good health. Tudjman has not been well. Milosevic is the youngest of the three.
He is an indicted war criminal...
I hope they call a taxi and take him to the Hague. That\'s what they should do.
Are you going to visit my country, sir, anytime soon?
I\'m not certain of the date, but it will be fairly soon. I need to go back and meet with the President. Meet with Mr. Silajdzic again...and others. What we are trying to do is transform this Commission into a Missing Persons Institute, so it will have some permanency, so it will be there and continue the work. And we need to get funding from other countries, including the United States. So, we are not quite finished with our assignment. So, I\'ll be going back and hopefully meeting, not just with the people in Sarajevo, but the mothers who live outside of Sarajevo. We always try to meet with the mothers and they always tell us their stories. I think it is, maybe, therapy; I think it makes them feel like somebody cares. And I must say in Serbia, when the mothers ask me to ask Milosevic if he would come and meet with them.
He never even met with the mothers...of the Serbs who were killed. That says a lot about him. Shows you how bad he is. So, I asked him, and he said he would. But he never has. To me, that\'s inexcusable. But, don\'t give up hope. I just say, to the people watching, \"You\'ve got a lot of friends in the United States and around the world...and as long as you are making an effort to make things better, I think that support will continue.
In conclusion Senator, Dole, your life was important for a million souls. Your political decisions were important for my people, especially. If you have a chance, now to ask God, in particular, what question would that be about yourself, or about others?
Well, I think it would be about peace and freedom...in those who go to the next millennium. Just a hope and prayer that that would happen. It may not, but as long as we can keep the faith, and do what we should do, as human beings, regardless of where we are from, there would be a much better opportunity for peace and freedom.
So Senator, I thank you very much ...
Thank you....
See you soon...in Sarajevo.
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