CANADIAN UN GEN. McKENZIE CHARGED WITH SEXUAL ABUSE
U15...@uicvm.uic.edu
RFE/RL Daily Report
No. 229, 30 November 1992
UN GENERAL CHARGED WITH SEXUAL ABUSE. The former UNPROFOR
commander in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Canadian Maj. Gen. Lewis
MacKenzie, is charged with having sexually abused four teenage
Muslim girls held in a Serbian prison camp. According to Zagreb's
daily Vecernji list and Radio Slovenia on 29 November, Bosnia's
military public prosecutor started proceedings against MacKenzie
for alleged war crimes committed against the civilian population
during his stay in Sarajevo. The Bosnian prosecutor is asking that
the military authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina demand that UN
Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali withdraw MacKenzie's
diplomatic immunity. Radio Serbia suggests the charges might be
unfounded, however, because Bosnia's government had been sharply
critical of MacKenzie's alleged pro-Serb leanings. (Milan
Andrejevich, RFE/RL, Inc.)
Copyright 1992, RFE/RL, Inc. All rights reserved.
------- End of forwarded message -------
Andy
Sounds like a typical wartime smear
>
>
Milan Stojanovic
Act of desperation, that will cost them a lot.
I wouldn't dare to post this around.
Regards,
Milan
It seems that, at least according to Dzevad Sabljakovic,
RFI correspondent in Sarajevo, the main witness is the Serbian guy
recently caught in Sarajevo by Muslims, who was interviewed
by J.Burns in NYT as a credible witness. Credible indeed.
Interestingly, J. Burns was not told, or decided to forget
this story.
>
>
>
>>
>>
Jeffrey Hazelwood
Why is this posted here?
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Jeffrey T. Hazelwood Universität Heidelberg
EMAIL: y...@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de Heidelberg, Germany
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Milan Stojanovic
>
>>I wouldn't dare to post this around.
>
>preventing humanitarian aid from reaching Srebrenica, cut off since
>April by Serbian seige.
What is the connection between preposterous accusation ( i.e. another lie )
by Muslim government and real Serbian siege of Srebrenica?
Did I miss something?
>I could not believe the audacity of a local
>Serbian politician there when (just before the latest UN convoy went in)
>he grandstanded: "This is Serbian soil...watch how you walk on it."
>Sickening to watch.
>
Yeh, it is sick that Serbs have some land, isn't it?
I see nothing wrong with this statement. Uninvited visitors
are greeted with bread and salt, but warned that they should
respect wishes of their hosts. This is a tradition, it
could be traced back to 12 century, i.e. Stephan Nemanja meeting
Barbarosa. I think that you should restrain from commenting Serbian
customs.
>BTW, the translation given to the viewing public by the British camera crew
>was diluted, to say the least!
>
How do you know this?
>/Joe Blazic
Milan
Stephanie Moskal Fysh
Well, I guess *somebody* out there thinks that raping prisoners is part
of Canadian and US culture.
--
Stephanie Moskal Fysh | "Today an eighteenth-century scholar may well
Dept. of English | be Jewish, female, or generally irreverent."
Univ. of Toronto | - Lawrence Lipking
(sf...@epas.utoronto.ca) |
Milan Stojanovic
>
>>>I could not believe the audacity of a local
>>>Serbian politician there when (just before the latest UN convoy went in)
>>>he grandstanded: "This is Serbian soil...watch how you walk on it."
>>>Sickening to watch.
>
>>Yeh, it is sick that Serbs have some land, isn't it?
>
>is "some land"...more than 70%?
No, according to the official statements 56%.
>
>>I see nothing wrong with this statement. Uninvited visitors
>>are greeted with bread and salt, but warned that they should
>>respect wishes of their hosts. This is a tradition, it
>
Propaganda deleted. You will be punished after the formation of
soc.culture.croatia for this one 8-).
>>could be traced back to 12 century, i.e. Stephan Nemanja meeting
>>Barbarosa. I think that you should restrain from commenting Serbian
>>customs.
>
>I think you might be wise in not labelling Serbian customs as
>arrogant and boorish, unless this is the image you wish to
>portray. Are you reading what you write??
>
It would be much easier to admit that you missunderstood something.
Once again, when someone asks for shelter, or to pass through ones
land, not only in Serbia, but almost everywhere ( whole Balkan,
CIS, etc ) he would be gladly accepted but warned that he should
respect the host. Quite clear, and nothing bad with it.
Serbian land, so respect Serbian customs and wishes. I suppose that
whenever you visit a country, you start preaching how people are
backwards and should accept your standards in behavior?
Or you never visit any country to avoid being exposed to
foreign influences that might spoil your superiority?
>Please, I know you are out there, would any reasonable Serb denounce
>Milan's sickening arrogance?
>
????
>>>BTW, the translation given to the viewing public by the British camera crew
>>>was diluted, to say the least!
>>How do you know this?
>
>Why are you wasting bandwidth? Because I saw the report, heard what the
>politician said, and the translation.
I am glad that your "Croatian" improved to the extent, that you were
able to understand that.
>
>/Joe Blazic
Faruk od Bosne
In article <1992Dec1.1...@husc3.harvard.edu>,
stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
|> In article <92336.155...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
289...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Andy) writes:
|> >In article <92336.123...@uicvm.uic.edu>, <U15...@uicvm.uic.edu> says:
|> >>
|> >>UN GENERAL CHARGED WITH SEXUAL ABUSE. The former UNPROFOR
|> >>commander in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Canadian Maj. Gen. Lewis
|> >>MacKenzie, is charged with having sexually abused four teenage
|> >>Muslim girls held in a Serbian prison camp. According to Zagreb's
|> >>daily Vecernji list and Radio Slovenia on 29 November, Bosnia's
|> >>military public prosecutor started proceedings against MacKenzie
|> >>for alleged war crimes committed against the civilian population
|> >>during his stay in Sarajevo. The Bosnian prosecutor is asking that
|> >>the military authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina demand that UN
|> >>Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali withdraw MacKenzie's
|> >>diplomatic immunity. Radio Serbia suggests the charges might be
|> >>unfounded, however, because Bosnia's government had been sharply
|> >>critical of MacKenzie's alleged pro-Serb leanings. (Milan
|> >>Andrejevich, RFE/RL, Inc.)
|> >>
|> >>
|> >>Copyright 1992, RFE/RL, Inc. All rights reserved.
|> >>------- End of forwarded message -------
|> >
|>
|>
|>
|> Act of desperation, that will cost them a lot.
|> I wouldn't dare to post this around.
Does it mean that crimes are to be left unpunished? No sir.
This news was posted on BOSNET, Nov 24 1992. Here is my English
translation.
ALMOST UNBELIEVABLE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST THE FORMER UNPROFOR
COMMANDER IN SARAJEVO
General McKenzie war criminal
Eye withness claims that McKenzie was taking four to five specially
selected and kept [Muslim] girls from the female prison [made a bordel
for Serbs], in UNPROFOR armored vehicle, after which their whereabouts
have desappeared.
SARAJEVO - Military Prosecutor in Sarajevo Mr. Mustafa Bisic will probably
open a criminal case against the Canadian General [Lewis] McKenzie, former
UNPROFOR commander in Sarajevo. One of the captured war criminals Borislav
Herak (1971), employee of Export-Import company in Sarajevo, who is accused,
that with Sretko Damjanovic (1961) employee in TAS, killed and slaughtered
more than 40 man in conc. camps and participated in rapes and robberies of
Muslim population, during investigation heavily indicted McKenzie.
Herak claims that he saw McKenzie taking four-to-five specially selected
and kept [Muslim] girls from a women prison in Vogosca, in unknown direction.
He was doing it using armored UN vehicle, after what the girls whereabouts
were lost. Prison's commander Branislav Blaco afterwards was ordering his
secret squad to remove those unfortunate girls, to destroy any trace. The
ivestigation will confirm whether the unpopular general, widely suspected
of being bribed by Serbs, was implicated in those crimes.
S. Lovrenovic
|>
|> Regards,
|>
|> Milan
|>
|>
|> It seems that, at least according to Dzevad Sabljakovic,
|> RFI correspondent in Sarajevo, the main witness is the Serbian guy
|> recently caught in Sarajevo by Muslims, who was interviewed
|> by J.Burns in NYT as a credible witness. Credible indeed.
|> Interestingly, J. Burns was not told, or decided to forget
|> this story.
I have checked authenticity of the story with the top Bosnian level.
It appeared to be true.
Milan Stojanovic
>
>Implicit in what you say, also, is that the people in Srebrenica, because
>they are on "Serbian land" (i.e. Serb-claimed land) have no right to be
>there and thus it is fine to expell or kill them all.
>
No, very city of Srebrenica is not claimed by Serbs. Surrounding is.
Sorry, that is life. You do not form state without negotiating with
everyone, and then expect that world community would help you.
>
>This is plain studity. I will say, though, that it is hard not
>to feel "superior" in the presense of a particular group of
>people (around Srebrenica) who seek the anihiliation of an
>entire civilian centre because they are not of the same race.
First, try to find out what is the race.
Second, whenever you are out of factual arguments you try to
play on emotions and simplifications. No-one is trying to destroy
anyone on the basis of different "race," Serbs are fighting for
self-determination, granted to every _nation_ in ex-Yugoslavia,
even the non-existing ones, except them. Political settlement
in Bosnia is going to include three viable states, and each side would
have to give up some of their claims for that. Croatia would
stay within its ethnical borders, unless they want to destroy a few
more tourist seasons, which would make Istra and Dalmatia think
twice whether they are Croatians or they are what they always were,
Dalmatians.
>
>>>Please, I know you are out there, would any reasonable Serb denounce
>>>Milan's sickening arrogance?
>>????
>
>Of course you can't see yourself.
>
????????
>>>>>BTW, the translation given to the viewing public by the British camera crew
>>>>>was diluted, to say the least!
>>>>How do you know this?
>>>Why are you wasting bandwidth? Because I saw the report, heard what the
>>>politician said, and the translation.
>>
>>I am glad that your "Croatian" improved to the extent, that you were
>>able to understand that.
>
>Once again, written like a true intellect: insults directed at people
>you don't know. What's next from Milan Stojanovic?
Joseph, I think that you are too young to be so forgetful. You know
very well that I know how good your "Croatian" was few months ago,
and I am sincerely glad that it is advancing.
>
>/Joe Blazic
MNS
Andy
What that he was charged? Have you never heard of official disinformation
and smears? I seriously doubt that McKensie was involved with anything like
this, rather it seems like a cheap attempt to discredit McKenzie by smearing
him.
JEVREMOVIC VLADAN
[stuff deleted]
>I have checked authenticity of the story with the top Bosnian level.
>It appeared to be true.
Oh, sure. And I spoke with Mr Karadzic the other day. He assured me the
story was a hoax.
Vladan
Faruk od Bosne
In article <1992Dec4.0...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>,
jevr...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (JEVREMOVIC VLADAN) writes:
|>
|> >I have checked authenticity of the story with the top Bosnian level.
|> >It appeared to be true.
|>
|> Oh, sure. And I spoke with Mr Karadzic the other day. He assured me the
|> story was a hoax.
|>
Bosnian Presidentship with a question if it is true. The response was yes.
|> Vladan
Faruk
Andy
Propaganda and disinformation usually comes from the top."Hello, Dr Goebbels?"
>
>|> Vladan
>
>Faruk
Rasputin
>2. Same goes in Croatia. I gave you the number of people killed (as
> recorded by the UN) behind Serbian lines in Croatia because they
> were not Serbs or "loyal Serbs": 600 this year (during the current
> "peace").
Does that count the number of people killed by Croatian
forces during their regular armed incursions into Serb-held
parts of Croatia? That's also documented by the UN.
--Branko
Faruk od Bosne
>Article 675 of soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:
>Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
>Date: Tuesday, 1 Dec 1992 12:32:21 CST
>From: <U15...@uicvm.uic.edu>
>Message-ID: <92336.123...@uicvm.uic.edu>
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
>Subject: CANADIAN UN GEN. McKENZIE CHARGED WITH SEXUAL ABUSE
>Lines: 26
>
>
> RFE/RL Daily Report
>
> No. 229, 30 November 1992
>
>
>UN GENERAL CHARGED WITH SEXUAL ABUSE. The former UNPROFOR
>commander in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Canadian Maj. Gen. Lewis
>MacKenzie, is charged with having sexually abused four teenage
>Muslim girls held in a Serbian prison camp. According to Zagreb's
>daily Vecernji list and Radio Slovenia on 29 November, Bosnia's
>military public prosecutor started proceedings against MacKenzie
>for alleged war crimes committed against the civilian population
>during his stay in Sarajevo. The Bosnian prosecutor is asking that
>the military authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina demand that UN
>Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali withdraw MacKenzie's
>diplomatic immunity. Radio Serbia suggests the charges might be
>unfounded, however, because Bosnia's government had been sharply
>critical of MacKenzie's alleged pro-Serb leanings. (Milan
>Andrejevich, RFE/RL, Inc.)
>
>
>Copyright 1992, RFE/RL, Inc. All rights reserved.
>------- End of forwarded message -------
>
>
|> >|> >It appeared to be true.
|> >|>
|>
Goebbels?"
|> >|> Vladan
Faruk.
Milan Stojanovic
In article <Byq0p...@ecf.toronto.edu> Joe Blazic writes:
>
>Out of factual arguments?? You deleted a few fundamental facts
>that I wrote:
>
>1. In any part of BiH claimed an controlled by Serbs, ALL non-Serbs
> of ANY non-Serb ethnic group/religion without exception are robbed
> and expelled at BEST.
So are in Croatian parts, so are in Croatia as whole.
Of course, Serbs cannot be victims. They are there, just to
spoil Croatian national identity.
Well, Muslim villages like Janja, where there was no war
going on, and where they asked for protection of the official
Serbian army in Bosnia ( not some irregulars ), there was no
violence. People might be scared, but they were not violated.
Doboj and Brcko initially were like that, until Izetbegovic
called all Muslims to rise against Serbs. Some of them obeyed.
That was at the time when Serbs tried to even form a local militia
with proportional representation in that areas, and invited
Muslims to fight with them for Yugoslavia. Colonel Slavko Lisica,
( ever heard of him? Victorious in Kupres battle ) was badly
attacked ( verbally ) by irregulars for his famous letter to
Muslims and Croats ( we are all brothers and are fighting for the
same cause...).
Do you know that Serbian Republic brought rather tough laws against
"damage of property of the temporarily displaced persons?" Do you know
that after the political settlement every "displaced person"
can claim all the property and take a legal action against those
who committed any crime ( this could be done even now) ?
Do you know that penalty for rape is execution, if person is caught
by Serbian military police - official army units?
>2. Same goes in Croatia. I gave you the number of people killed (as
> recorded by the UN) behind Serbian lines in Croatia because they
> were not Serbs or "loyal Serbs": 600 this year (during the current
> "peace").
Gee, how many Serbs where killed by Croats during same time?
Do you understand that, due to Croatian treats, everyone is heavily
armed there? Including very unbalanced persons. Do you know that,
according to the same reports there was huge number ( over one hundred,
if I remember well ) armed intrusions of the Croats in those regions?
As long as there is a treat by Croats, there will be no normal life in
Krajinas.
>
>Which facts do you deny?
They are incomplete and taken out of context.
>
>>anyone on the basis of different "race," Serbs are fighting for
>>self-determination, granted to every _nation_ in ex-Yugoslavia,
>
>Does self-determination meaning that any non-Serb behind is denied
>the right to LIFE? This is the universal pattern. Please answer.
Of course not. It is not the universal pattern, and that is blind
propaganda you are repeating here, without understanding that I
could do the same. With equally strong argument, even without
bringing in the WWII, I could go on talking about what Croats are
doing.
Anyway, there is interesting continuity of the obsession with
ethnical purity in Croatia. But, this is the discussion for
soc.culture.croatia.thousandyearsoldculture.
Unlike you, I do think that that discussion is pointless, except
for propaganda purposes, and that is not why I am here.
>>stay within its ethnical borders, unless they want to destroy a few
>>more tourist seasons, which would make Istra and Dalmatia think
>>twice whether they are Croatians or they are what they always were,
>>Dalmatians.
>
>Of course you mean the current ethnic borders, i.e. after ethnic
>cleansing...
>
It seems to me that you have been drinking from the same well
for a too long time as Prof. Mladen Wickerhauser and Josip Loncaric
( famous for Klara Mandic is not a Jew - he still did not provide
his sources for that one - and Serbs were killing Jews in
gas utilities - vans/chambers -- equally untrue ) did. Are you hoping
that I would not spend time to answer this?
Current borders between Serbian Republic of Krajina and Croatia
are and were mostly ethnical.
Krajina proper had Serbian absolute majority since 17 century, when
this land was inhabited by Serbs as "desolated lands," i.e. when
Croats run away from Turks. This territory represent far the greatest
part of the territory in the hands of Serbs. Parts of pink zones did
have Serbian majority (in Ogulin, Gospic, Karlovac, part of Drnis ) and
part was taken during the de-blocking of the military bases, and this
is a Croatian mistake.
Vukovar and Ilok had absolute Serbian majority before WWII, when
Pavelic&Stepinec duo cleansed the area and inhabited people from
Western Herzegovina. Nice job. The second generation tried to
finish the job, but they lost, there were no Germans to hold
hands of Serbs. Baranja indeed had majority of non-Serbs, but
Serbian part of Western Slavonia, is now left Serbless, so there
was effectively something like an exchange of territory. And Baranja
was never historically part of Croatia. Also number of Yugoslavs
+ Serbs is bigger then number of Croats in places like Pakrac,
occupied by Croats.
>
>You would do yourself well to look up the words "patronization",
>"insinuation", and as well read a couple very basic books about
>intelligent debating (although most of us don't have to...).
>
Actually, I should clear up this a little bit.
Joe, it is my understanding that if someone is not a native speaker,
and is not versed into the mentality, customs and other things in
some area, interpretation of the speeches given, like the one
you have given to us, is dangerous. Especially if there is initial bias
against the person giving the speech.
It is natural to say what the guy on TV said, try to understand that.
There is nothing arrogant in his speech, although it might have sounded
as a warning. Actually it is a warning.
Those are proud people, proud of _their_ freedom and
_their_ land. No one is going to decide for them what is theirs.
Period. If you cannot understand this, sorry, I do not intend to
spend hours on that.
So, I am not insinuating, but claiming, that you missunderstood
the whole event on TV, for:
a) you are out of touch of customs there
b) you were biased to start with against Serbs
c) you were not able to pick up the fine details in language, unlike
the official translators, to be able to adjust the translation to its
real meaning and tone
Concerning books, there are two books which I could recommend. First one
is Ivo Andric "The bridge over Drina." Author is Catholic Serb
( exotic bird today ! ) and helps understanding what Bosnia is. Anthony Lewis
should read it first. It is much better to read it in original language.
The second one is "Magnum Crimen" by Victor Novak, a Croat. I do not think
that this is a translated book. It is a collection of documents, author's
own comments could be easily skipped. Combined with some historical background
about Clerical vs. National parties in Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia,
one could understand the main causes of the collapse of the new nation
Yugoslavs. Nation that had a bright future. I will provide certain parts
translated on soc.culture.croatia, time allowing.
>/Joe Blazic
Joseph, I do not think that I will go on spending more time on this.
Regards,
MNS
Erland Sommarskog
>No, very city of Srebrenica is not claimed by Serbs. Surrounding is.
>Sorry, that is life. You do not form state without negotiating with
>everyone, and then expect that world community would help you.
So why then this Serbian "custom" or preventing vital transports to
Srebenica? I have to admit being unfamilliar with Serbian habits,
do you regularly starve each other out?
>Serbs are fighting for
>self-determination, granted to every _nation_ in ex-Yugoslavia,
Sure, what about the Albanians? Or they are not a nation? Just
Unter-Menchen? Liar.
If the Serbs cannot get their self-determination by means of
ethnical cleansing it is highly disputable that this slime deserve
it. If they are so lowly primitive creatures, they should be be
put behind lock and have the key thrown away.
Serbian customs, just say no!
--
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
Senad Arnautovic
>Do you know that Serbian Republic brought rather tough laws against
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
what is this? F.R.Y? Where are the Montenegrins?
>"damage of property of the temporarily displaced persons?"
What about those who were forced to sign the papers that their
property belongs to Mr. Karadzic forces?
Now Milan, why don't you pull out the citation of your law that says
"the property transfer is void if Serbian forces catch somebody
who use the force to make people sign off the people's property".
>Do you know
>that after the political settlement every "displaced person"
who is still alive... What about those killed? Though luck, you'd say.
>can claim all the property and take a legal action against those
>who committed any crime ( this could be done even now) ?
>Do you know that penalty for rape is execution, if person is caught
>by Serbian military police - official army units?
Milan, do you REALLY believe in what you have written?
Did you read the excerpts from Mr. Herak (a Serb captured by
Bosnian territorial army) story in NYT about who gave
him orders to shoot, throat-cut, rape etc. The captain
of the regular Yugoslav army. Not some irregulars, not some
lunatics but professional soldiers. So please, save us from
lullabies in which you do not believe yourself.
>Concerning books, there are two books which I could recommend. First one
>is Ivo Andric "The bridge over Drina." Author is Catholic Serb
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>( exotic bird today ! ) and helps understanding what Bosnia is.
In a next iteration you will claim Croats are Catholic Serbs
and all Muslims are the Serbs of islamic confession and so the problem
in the former Yugoslavia is solved, since, according to the
prevailing Serbian doctrine being enforced by guns,
Greater Serbia is anywhere where a Serb lives.
Therefore, Greater Serbia = former YU - Slovenia - Macedonia.
Whoever disagree gets a bullet in the head or is expelled abroad.
>Regards,
>MNS
Senad H. Arnautovic
Milan Stojanovic
>
>>Serbs are fighting for
>>self-determination, granted to every _nation_ in ex-Yugoslavia,
>
>Sure, what about the Albanians? Or they are not a nation? Just
>Unter-Menchen? Liar.
Hold your donkeys, Erland. Have you ever heard me to say something bad
about Albanians?
In ex-Yugoslavia there were six _nations_ and many national minorities.
IL allows self-determination for nations, not minorities. Constitution
of SFR of Yugoslavia allowed for self-determination of nations, not
republics or provinces. So Albanians are entitled to the highest
degree of autonomy, but not to separate state, according to the
international law. Of course, international law was already broken
in the case of Yugoslavia, under pressure of Germany mostly, so
this might not be an argument any more.
In any case, I do believe that there must be territorial settlement
between Albanians and Serbs, which would make all sides equally happy
an equally unhappy, so the future friendly relations would be secured.
>
>If the Serbs cannot get their self-determination by means of
>ethnical cleansing it is highly disputable that this slime deserve
>it. If they are so lowly primitive creatures, they should be be
>put behind lock and have the key thrown away.
>
Erland, you sound just like those Germans who committed 2000 attacks
against their minorities in 1992. This language seems to suit you well.
Milan Stojanovic
>
>Milan, do you REALLY believe in what you have written?
Senad, I have chosen to believe in Karadzic, you have chosen
to believe in Alija Izetbegovic. I recognise that Serbian side
made many mistakes that led to the collapse of Yugoslavia, the
best solution, you do not recognise a single mistake by Alija
in the case of Bosnia. We will see who was right and who was not.
Furthermore, when the political settlement is reached, I would be proud
to be the first one to criticise Karadzic if he does not fulfill his
promises that everyone would be allowed to return and claim property.
Same goes to Krajina. When Croats recognise it, I would be the first
one to sign any petition for Croats to be allowed to return, and
for Krajina to disarm.
>Did you read the excerpts from Mr. Herak (a Serb captured by
>Bosnian territorial army) story in NYT about who gave
>him orders to shoot, throat-cut, rape etc. The captain
>of the regular Yugoslav army. Not some irregulars, not some
>lunatics but professional soldiers. So please, save us from
>lullabies in which you do not believe yourself.
In one of the articles about Herak, he said that he was hiding
in some cases from military police.
And, Herak is a "credible witness" against Canadian general, who
led away four Muslim girls from Serbs in UNPROFOR vehicle.
Faruk od Bosne claims that Sarajevo government stands behind
this preposterous accusation, that shed a new light on the
credibility of this witness.
>
>>Concerning books, there are two books which I could recommend. First one
>>is Ivo Andric "The bridge over Drina." Author is Catholic Serb
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>( exotic bird today ! ) and helps understanding what Bosnia is.
>
>In a next iteration you will claim Croats are Catholic Serbs
Some Catholics are Serbs, nothing more, and nothing less. Their
number used to be rather high. Ivo Andric claimed to be Catholic on
all documents before WWII and claimed to be Serb on all documents
after the WWII. That is all.
Other cases of Catholic Serbs are known. Djaja, Minister of the
Interior under the Petar Karageorgevic was Catholic from Ragusa.
Bogizic, Minister of Justice under Nikola Petrovic was Catholic
from Ragusa Vecchia. Orsatto Pozzo was a Serb Catholic from
Ragusa, known to Dr. Wickerhauser as Medo Pucic. Petar Preradovic,
Rudjer Boskovic...
Holy See has recognised the existence of the Catholic Serbs
in the Convention of March 7, 1902, signed by Cardinal Rampolly ( for
Holy See ) and Count Louis Voinovitch (for Montenegro), convention about
Illyrian College of St. Jerome in Rome.
Idea that Catholics are Croats, Serbs are Orthodox and Muslims are
who knows what, is part of Divide et Impera tactics of the Austria
to cause a split between Yugoslavs.
>and all Muslims are the Serbs of islamic confession and so the problem
As Emir Kusturica said: " My grand-grand parents were Serbs, but that
was few hundred years ago. I am now not Serb." So, I recognise
your right not to be Serb, as long as you do not start to falsify
our common history. About Muslims as a nation, I suggest you
to read anything from Esad Cimic - Muslim Croat, one of the most intelligent
people I had chance to listen to, who was threatened in Sarajevo,
more then ten years ago, for his refusal to be "Muslim." Same
goes to Muslim Serb - Mesa Selimovic.
>Senad H. Arnautovic
So what was bad with MBO - SDS agreement after all? Why did Alija
first endorse it ( according to Zuflikarpasic ), then gave it up?
Do you think that everyone would have been much better off?
Milan N. Stojanovic
U15...@uicvm.uic.edu
From: <U15...@uicvm.uic.edu>
Message-ID: <92342.113...@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: CANADIAN UN GEN. McKENZIE
References: <Byp8n...@ecf.toronto.edu>
<1992Dec3.2...@husc3.harvard.edu> <Byq0p...@ecf.toronto.edu>
<1992Dec6.1...@husc3.harvard.edu>
In article <1992Dec6.1...@husc3.harvard.edu>,
stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) says:
>
>
>Well, Muslim villages like Janja, where there was no war
>going on, and where they asked for protection of the official
>Serbian army in Bosnia ( not some irregulars ), there was no
>violence. People might be scared, but they were not violated.
>
>Doboj and Brcko initially were like that, until Izetbegovic
>called all Muslims to rise against Serbs. Some of them obeyed.
>
>That was at the time when Serbs tried to even form a local militia
>with proportional representation in that areas, and invited
>Muslims to fight with them for Yugoslavia. Colonel Slavko Lisica,
>( ever heard of him? Victorious in Kupres battle ) was badly
>attacked ( verbally ) by irregulars for his famous letter to
>Muslims and Croats ( we are all brothers and are fighting for the
>same cause...).
>
>Do you know that Serbian Republic brought rather tough laws against
>"damage of property of the temporarily displaced persons?" Do you know
>that after the political settlement every "displaced person"
>can claim all the property and take a legal action against those
>who committed any crime ( this could be done even now) ?
>
>Do you know that penalty for rape is execution, if person is caught
>by Serbian military police - official army units?
Do you know Milan what you are talking about!? Your "rhetoric" reminds
me of nazi slogans in front of death-camps: "Work will set you free".
Shame on you in the name of murdered, raped, expeled!!!
Zlatko Sijercic
>
>Regards,
>
>MNS
>
>
>
Ron Newman
--
Ron Newman rne...@bbn.com
Senad Arnautovic
>In article <ByvAJ...@me.utoronto.ca> arns...@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:
>>
>>Milan, do you REALLY believe in what you have written?
>Senad, I have chosen to believe in Karadzic, you have chosen
>to believe in Alija Izetbegovic. I recognise that Serbian side
>made many mistakes that led to the collapse of Yugoslavia, the
>best solution, you do not recognise a single mistake by Alija
>in the case of Bosnia. We will see who was right and who was not.
In my previous communications, I wrote that I did not agree in all steps
what Alija did. I re-iterate that Alija does not represent all Bosnians
and Hercegovians of islamic confession, but respect him as
the President of the Presidency of Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina.
Next year somebody else will come at that position, even though
that could not be the case due to the war situation.
Please tell us, in your opinion, where did Alija make a crucial mistake,
what other option did he have in early fall of 1991 when a Nazi-style
anti-non-Serb hysteria was running in Serbia-controlled media,
when Mr. Draskovic was telling that each Muslim should be cut in
arms if he (a Muslim) raises a hand to identify himself as a Muslim,
when it was no secret that Serbs were running SAOs as parts of
Serbia, when it was becoming clear that B-H would be converted
into another Kosovo province in terms of human rights, when Chetniks
were parading over Romania montain preparing for the "final" solution
by stock-piling the weapons (Foca of 1940s when thousands Muslims
where slaughtered as they are in 1992 easily come to the picture)?
What would you do then if you were Alija?
>Furthermore, when the political settlement is reached, I would be proud
>to be the first one to criticise Karadzic if he does not fulfill his
>promises that everyone would be allowed to return and claim property.
You can start criticizing him at once; he will not be in that position of
power since he will be tried as a war criminal at that time.
You may try mentioning gen. Mladic, the real man of power
in the wolf village of Pale.
>Same goes to Krajina. When Croats recognise it, I would be the first
^^^^^^^^^
recognise what? Why should Croatia recognise its own part of land.
Cultural autonomy? Sure it will recognise.
>one to sign any petition for Croats to be allowed to return, and
>for Krajina to disarm.
>>Did you read the excerpts from Mr. Herak (a Serb captured by
>>Bosnian territorial army) story in NYT about who gave
>>him orders to shoot, throat-cut, rape etc. The captain
>>of the regular Yugoslav army. Not some irregulars, not some
>>lunatics but professional soldiers. So please, save us from
>>lullabies in which you do not believe yourself.
>In one of the articles about Herak, he said that he was hiding
>in some cases from military police.
>And, Herak is a "credible witness" against Canadian general, who
>led away four Muslim girls from Serbs in UNPROFOR vehicle.
>Faruk od Bosne claims that Sarajevo government stands behind
>this preposterous accusation, that shed a new light on the
>credibility of this witness.
Earlier you claimed "all Serbian attrocities are not founded
since there are no witnesses". Now when THE witness was found,
he is not credible witness. Forget about tens of thousands people
telling about crimes, foreign people evidence, etc. Probably
what will convince you that crimes exist against non-serbs as
part of ethnic cleansing, in accordance to your previous post about
the "law" in Serbian occupied Bosnian lands, is that "the crimes
have happened only if members of Serbian military police have
witnessed them, and only if approved by Mr. Karadzic".
>from Ragusa Vecchia. Orsatto Pozzo was a Serb Catholic from
>Ragusa, known to Dr. Wickerhauser as Medo Pucic. Petar Preradovic,
^^^^^^
you mean Dubrovnik? Is omitting the name of Dubrovnik a part
of your claim that Dubrovnik should not belong to Croatia?
>Rudjer Boskovic...
>Idea that Catholics are Croats, Serbs are Orthodox and Muslims are
>who knows what, is part of Divide et Impera tactics of the Austria
>to cause a split between Yugoslavs.
Austria promoted the idea of Bosnian nation, a progressive idea
whose time has come to be promoted even more vigourously. The Serbs
in Serbia opposed that idea of Austria fearing their dreams of
Greater Serbia would not come true. Therefore, it were the Serbs
who applied the tactics of Divide et Impera. Besides, Austria
did not shell Sarajevo in last 2 centuries. Look who is shelling
and destroying the most cosmopolitan city in the former Yugoslavia?
Who is strangling the Sheher Saraj? It will take decades if not
centuries before the Serbs can apply to be considered a part
of a civilized world.
If you consider yourself a Serb who wants to do a good to Serbia,
you should start donating money to re-build the Sheher Sarajevo
from this moment till you are alive.
>more then ten years ago, for his refusal to be "Muslim." Same
>goes to Muslim Serb - Mesa Selimovic.
Regardless what Mesa would say, now he would be executed at once
at a Serbian checkpoint the very moment he would have shown
his identity card with the name of Mehmed Selimovic.
If he would have sent to the Manjaca concentration camp or some
other of many conc. camps (because he carries a Muslim name),
he would have been forced to drink his own urine and eventually
executed since he had a higher education. Following Nazi-doctrine,
the Serbs had executed all educated non-serb prisoners in
the conc. camps.
>So what was bad with MBO - SDS agreement after all? Why did Alija
>first endorse it ( according to Zuflikarpasic ), then gave it up?
Zulfikarpasic is an opposition politician who broke off with Alija
to form MBO. I would not trust what he says. Take Vuk Draskovic
who says he is for peace in B-H, just as any opposition politician
who by definition must oppose the official policy of the ruling
party.
>Milan N. Stojanovic
Senad H. Arnautovic
Nikola Malenovic
>when Mr. Draskovic was telling that each Muslim should be cut in
>arms if he (a Muslim) raises a hand to identify himself as a Muslim,
>Senad H. Arnautovic
small lies go through un-noticed.... so I thought of exposing this small one
:) the big ones I leave for other with wish to argue...
Vuk Draskovic, a charismatic leader of SPO, the initially nationalistic
right movement, said that he will cut one's hand if he puts up the green
flag in Serbia ('odsecicu ruku onome ko zavijori zeleni barjak u Srbiji').
This statement was referring to the possible sucession of Sandzak and Kosovo
regions - he simply stated that sucession is impossible. Vuk Draskovic
worked with Albanian leaders in the coalition as long as those leaders
proposed anything but sucession (autonomy in full was Vuk's proposition).
When those leaders swung to the right, and declared sucession, the whole
opposition - even Vuk Draskovic have left the idea of cooperation. Read a
few VREME articles about this....
Nik
--
U52...@uicvm.uic.edu
Arnautovic) says:
>
>stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>>>Milan, do you REALLY believe in what you have written?
>
>>Senad, I have chosen to believe in Karadzic, you have chosen
>>to believe in Alija Izetbegovic. I recognise that Serbian side
>>made many mistakes that led to the collapse of Yugoslavia, the
>>best solution, you do not recognise a single mistake by Alija
>>in the case of Bosnia. We will see who was right and who was not.
>
>
>when Chetniks
>were parading over Romania montain preparing for the "final" solution
>by stock-piling the weapons (Foca of 1940s when thousands Muslims
>where slaughtered as they are in 1992 easily come to the picture)?
>What would you do then if you were Alija?
>
chetniks did this not only in BiH but parts of Croatia, and Sandzak
>
Milan says that Cro ought to recognize Krajina.
>
>>Same goes to Krajina. When Croats recognise it, I would be the first
> ^^^^^^^^^
>recognise what? Why should Croatia recognise its own part of land.
>Cultural autonomy? Sure it will recognise.
What! That is the most assinine thing I've heard a Chetnik say!
Cro has granted cultural autonomy, but Milan, you've got to be
smoking funny weed if you think historically non-Serb land will
be given to the Serbs because of conquest.
>
Milan says there are such thing as Catholic Serbs.
>
>>from Ragusa Vecchia. Orsatto Pozzo was a Serb Catholic from
>>Ragusa, known to Dr. Wickerhauser as Medo Pucic. Petar Preradovic,
> ^^^^^^
>you mean Dubrovnik? Is omitting the name of Dubrovnik a part
>of your claim that Dubrovnik should not belong to Croatia?
>
>>Rudjer Boskovic...
>>Idea that Catholics are Croats, Serbs are Orthodox and Muslims are
>>who knows what, is part of Divide et Impera tactics of the Austria
>>to cause a split between Yugoslavs.
>
Vuk Stefanovic-Karasomething said that all Cro catholics and muslims
in BiH were Serbs. I could say Nikola Tesla was a Croat. We could
also say that all orthodox in Croatia are Cros.
>Austria promoted the idea of Bosnian nation, a progressive idea
>whose time has come to be promoted even more vigourously. The Serbs
>in Serbia opposed that idea of Austria fearing their dreams of
>Greater Serbia would not come true. Therefore, it were the Serbs
>who applied the tactics of Divide et Impera. Besides, Austria
>did not shell Sarajevo in last 2 centuries. Look who is shelling
>and destroying the most cosmopolitan city in the former Yugoslavia?
>Who is strangling the Sheher Saraj? It will take decades if not
>centuries before the Serbs can apply to be considered a part
>of a civilized world.
>
>
>>Milan N. Stojanovic...I'm a fascist....
>
>Senad H. Arnautovic...what's the "H" stand for...
I must thank friend Senad bashing Milan. Though I'm not sure
about the fact that Austria promoted Bosnian...and Hercegovian?
I have been off for a few days, in that time I had a friend who was
in BiH--more accurately Hercegovina.
HE says that the muslims in Hercegovina(what they told him) are Croats.
-Cro
Faruk od Bosne
In article <Byx5x...@ns1.nodak.edu>, male...@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola
Malenovic) writes:
|> In article <Bywv1...@me.utoronto.ca> arns...@me.utoronto.ca (Senad
Arnautovic) writes:
|>
|> >when Mr. Draskovic was telling that each Muslim should be cut in
|> >arms if he (a Muslim) raises a hand to identify himself as a Muslim,
|>
|> >Senad H. Arnautovic
|>
|> small lies go through un-noticed.... so I thought of exposing this small one
|> :) the big ones I leave for other with wish to argue...
|>
|> Vuk Draskovic, a charismatic leader of SPO, the initially nationalistic
No kidding. You are in love with him.
|> right movement, said that he will cut one's hand if he puts up the green
|> flag in Serbia ('odsecicu ruku onome ko zavijori zeleni barjak u Srbiji').
|> This statement was referring to the possible sucession of Sandzak and Kosovo
^^^^^^^^^
you mean seccession? You simply repeated what Senad said.
|> regions - he simply stated that secession is impossible. Vuk Draskovic
^^^^^^^^^^
Why not? Serbia is illegally keeping both provinces by brute force.
|> When those leaders swung to the right, and declared secession, the whole
If the people of Sandzak and Kosovo do not want to live within Serbia,
why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question. There is
a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.
|> opposition - even Vuk Draskovic have left the idea of cooperation. Read a
|> few VREME articles about this....
^^^^^
I did, VREME is cetnik's weekly, the seed of hatred against non-serbs.
|>
|> Nik
|> --
Faruk.
Faruk od Bosne
In article <1992Dec7.1...@husc3.harvard.edu>,
stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec6.2...@enea.se> som...@enea.se (Erland
Sommarskog) writes:
|> >
|> >>Serbs are fighting for
|> >>self-determination, granted to every _nation_ in ex-Yugoslavia,
|> >
|> >Sure, what about the Albanians? Or they are not a nation? Just
|> >Unter-Menchen? Liar.
|>
Six nations are: Serbs, Croats, Muslims, Slovenes, Macedonians, Monte-Negrins.
Why then, according to your logic, Muslims and Croats cannot secede?
|> IL allows self-determination for nations, not minorities. Constitution
|> of SFR of Yugoslavia allowed for self-determination of nations, not
|> republics or provinces.
This is not true. Constitution of SFR Yu allows precisely the secession of
provinces if their people(s) choose so by the referendum.
|>So Albanians are entitled to the highest
|> degree of autonomy, but not to separate state,
because you say so?
|> according to the
|> international law.
Which one? The secessions of Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia-Hercegovina,
were precisely carried-out and the compliance to the international laws
monitored by western observers.
|> Of course, international law was already broken
|> in the case of Yugoslavia, under pressure of Germany mostly, so
Are you trying to scare Germans?
|> this might not be an argument any more.
why bother then?
|>
|> In any case, I do believe that there must be territorial settlement
|> between Albanians and Serbs, which would make all sides equally happy
|> an equally unhappy, so the future friendly relations would be secured.
|>
According to serbian recipes from Bosnia and Croatia, 90% Albanians should
get 10% of Kosovo. I bet, even then some serbs will be disappointed.
|>
|> >ethnical cleansing it is highly disputable that this slime deserve
|> >it. If they [serbs] are so lowly primitive creatures, they should be
confined within their state - Serbia.
|> >put behind lock and have the key thrown away.
|> >
|>
|> >Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
Faruk.
Faruk od Bosne
Sommarskog) writes:
|> >
|> >>Serbs are fighting for
|> >>self-determination, granted to every _nation_ in ex-Yugoslavia,
|> >
|> >Sure, what about the Albanians? Or they are not a nation? Just
|> >Unter-Menchen? Liar.
|>
|> Hold your donkeys, Erland. Have you ever heard me to say something bad
|> about Albanians?
|>
|> In ex-Yugoslavia there were six _nations_ and many national minorities.
|> IL allows self-determination for nations, not minorities. Constitution
|> of SFR of Yugoslavia allowed for self-determination of nations, not
|> republics or provinces.
This is not true. The Constitution of ex-Yugoslavia allowed separation
of provinces. By the referendum. Precisely as it was done in the separated
provinces.
|> So Albanians are entitled to the highest
|> degree of autonomy, but not to separate state, according to the
|> international law.
Which international law are you refering to? International law precisely
entitles the regions for independence if the population decides so on a
basis of referendum. Western observers were monitoring the compliance
with the international law during referendum procedures in Slovenia,
Croatia, and Bosna-Hercegovina. They were fully aware what the referendum
was about.
|> in the case of Yugoslavia, under pressure of Germany mostly, so
Are you trying to scare Germans?
|> this might not be an argument any more.
|>
|> In any case, I do believe that there must be territorial settlement
|> between Albanians and Serbs, which would make all sides equally happy
|> an equally unhappy, so the future friendly relations would be secured.
According to the serbian recipe from Bosnia and Croatia, 90% Albanians
will get 10% of Kosovo. Even then, I bet, some serbs will be disappointed.
|> If they [serbs] are so lowly primitive creatures,
they should be confined to their state - Serbia.
Faruk.
Ana M. Shane
>If the people of Sandzak and Kosovo do not want to live within Serbia,
>why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question. There is
>a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.
Well, then, why not the same standard for the Serbs? If the Serbs in Croatia
and Bosnia and herzegovina do not want to live within these republics, why
should they be forced?
See, the arguments in this war, the one based on national rights cancel
each other!! And Kosovo is the reversed issue: if you apply arguments
that defend borders of Croatia and BiH, then you also have to defend
the borders of Serbia (which have always included Kosovo, even when it was
an autonomous province, it was a province in Serbia). If you say that Serbia
should give Kosovo to Albanians, then why not the Croatian and the Bosnian
Krajinas to Serbs?
>|> opposition - even Vuk Draskovic have left the idea of cooperation. Read a
>|> few VREME articles about this....
> ^^^^^
>I did, VREME is cetnik's weekly, the seed of hatred against non-serbs.
>|>
No, Vreme is the paper that publishes articles against the war irrelevant of
what is the nationality of the perpetrators. If you have read Vreme you
couldn't conclude that it is a chetnik weekly, unless it is something
else you have read and thought it was VREME. There are as many anti-Milosevic
papers in Vreme as anti-Tudjman, anti-Karadzic, etc...
>|> Nik
>|> --
>Faruk.
With hopes for peace
___ ___
___ _/ \ / //
\_/ @ \ / // _/////
/|-\_ \/ // _/ _/
| \ \__//__/ _/
()/ \ __ /
/ () \_ \____ |////<
() \_ \_______\
\______/
Ana M. Shane voice: (215)-843-2909
334 Winona St.
Philadelphia, PA 19144 e-mail: psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu
Rasputin
>entitles the regions for independence if the population decides so on a
>basis of referendum. Western observers were monitoring the compliance
>with the international law during referendum procedures in Slovenia,
>Croatia, and Bosna-Hercegovina. They were fully aware what the referendum
>was about.
And the people in Krajina had a referendum on May 14, 1991,
when they voted to stay in Yugoslavia.
>|> If they [serbs] are so lowly primitive creatures,
>they should be confined to their state - Serbia.
as defined by Tito - Croatian.
>Faruk.
--Branko
Rasputin
>why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question. There is
>a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.
According to the New York Times, Sandjak is 56% Muslim.
Since it has no formal borders, that number could just
as easily be less than 50% depending on what borders one uses.
>|> opposition - even Vuk Draskovic have left the idea of cooperation. Read a
>|> few VREME articles about this....
> ^^^^^
>I did, VREME is cetnik's weekly, the seed of hatred against non-serbs.
Isn't Vreme an opposition weekly, openly critical of Milosevic,
published in Rijeka? One of it's editors is Milos Vasic, who
is married to a Muslim woman.
>|>
>|> Nik
>|> --
>Faruk.
--Branko
Faruk od Bosne
In article <Dec.9.02.23....@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
|> fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
|>
|> >If the people of Sandzak and Kosovo do not want to live within Serbia,
|> >why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question.
There is
|> >a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.
|>
|> Well, then, why not the same standard for the Serbs? If the Serbs in Croatia
|> and Bosnia and herzegovina do not want to live within these republics, why
|> should they be forced?
|>
|> See, the arguments in this war, the one based on national rights cancel
|> each other!! And Kosovo is the reversed issue: if you apply arguments
|> that defend borders of Croatia and BiH, then you also have to defend
|> the borders of Serbia (which have always included Kosovo, even when it was
|> an autonomous province, it was a province in Serbia). If you say that
Serbia
|> should give Kosovo to Albanians, then why not the Croatian and the Bosnian
|> Krajinas to Serbs?
Well mme, let's go one think at a time.
First I have never said that serbs in "Krajina" should not get the right for
independence. However, at least in Bosnia, they have no "clean" territory. In
some parts of Bosnia serbs are simple majority, however 10 km down the road
they are minority. (In this respect I would rather call "Krtajina" a region,
like Sumadija or Slavonija, etc.) President Izetbegovic used to say that
Bosnia is like a leopard fur pattern. It is impossible to draw ethnic lines
unless they go through the bedrooms. Kosovo for comparison is not. That's
why serbs in Bosnia resorted to the ethnic cleansing.
Second is the humane rights. Nobody ever drudged serbs in Bosnia. That's why
a lot of Bosnian serbs want to live together (listen to bravery award
journalist newswoman from Bosnia Mrs. Dubravka Knezevic, serb). Contrary,
Albanians in Kosovo suffer the most brutal oppression ever known. 10% of
serbian population do not allow 90% Albanians to use their language, to have
any infrastructure like schools, hospitals, newspapers, TV, but anything.
In addition to that serbs are building the largest serbian church in the
heart of Pristina (Kosovo capital). Will the serbs 500 years from now again
claim that Pristina is the cradle of serbian nation because of this church.
Reversing the direction, shall we now believe serbs when they say same on the
basis of Pecka patrijarsija. Or maybe Pecka patrijarsia was built with the
same intentions as the current church in Pristina. Kosovo is an ubiquitous
example of serbian justice toward the non-serbs. That's why no non-serbs
want to live together with serbs, and why all those cries for secessions
have started. Non-serbs have no choice: freedom or death. It was the hope
of non-serbs of former Yugo that USA and the West will see that.
Third are geographic reasons. Kosovo borders with Albania, while "Krajina"
does not. (That's why serbs militants convulsively keep tiny strip south
of Orasje.) That's precisely what defines the notion of minorities: people
not belonging to the mother nation of the state and whose mother state is
disjoint with the region they live in.
Fourth are historic reasons. No Bosnian part (see my previous article about
of Bosnia and her borders in this section), have ever belonged to Serbia.
It was rather other way around: Sandzak and Monte-Negro part (around Niksic)
were part of the Bosnian pashadom, given to Milos Obrenovic who helped
Turkish sultan in suppressing Bosnian uprising for independence led by
Husein Gradascevic (Dragon of Bosnia). Also, Kosovo before 1918 was never
part of Serbia. Before 1918 Serbia used to have their consulate in Pristina.
|>
|> With hopes for peace
|>
|> ___ ___
|> ___ _/ \ / //
|> \_/ @ \ / // _/////
|> /|-\_ \/ // _/ _/
|> | \ \__//__/ _/
|> ()/ \ __ /
|> / () \_ \____ |////<
|> () \_ \_______\
|> \______/
|>
|>
|> Ana M. Shane voice: (215)-843-2909
|> 334 Winona St.
|> Philadelphia, PA 19144 e-mail: psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu
Faruk.
Ana M. Shane
>In article <Dec.9.02.23....@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
>psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>|> fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
>|>
>|> >If the people of Sandzak and Kosovo do not want to live within Serbia,
>|> >why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question.
>There is
>|> >a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.
>|>
>|> Well, then, why not the same standard for the Serbs? If the Serbs in Croatia
>|> and Bosnia and herzegovina do not want to live within these republics, why
>|> should they be forced?
>|>
>|> See, the arguments in this war, the one based on national rights cancel
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> each other!! And Kosovo is the reversed issue: if you apply arguments
^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> that defend borders of Croatia and BiH, then you also have to defend
>|> the borders of Serbia (which have always included Kosovo, even when it was
>|> an autonomous province, it was a province in Serbia). If you say that
>Serbia
>|> should give Kosovo to Albanians, then why not the Croatian and the Bosnian
>|> Krajinas to Serbs?
>
This was my point: the arguments based on national rights cancel each other
and only add to fear hatred and continuation of the war!!!
You proceed to prove who has greater national rights:
>Well mme, let's go one think at a time.
>First I have never said that serbs in "Krajina" should not get the right for
>independence. However, at least in Bosnia, they have no "clean" territory. In
>some parts of Bosnia serbs are simple majority, however 10 km down the road
>they are minority. (In this respect I would rather call "Krtajina" a region,
>like Sumadija or Slavonija, etc.) President Izetbegovic used to say that
>Bosnia is like a leopard fur pattern. It is impossible to draw ethnic lines
>unless they go through the bedrooms. Kosovo for comparison is not. That's
>why serbs in Bosnia resorted to the ethnic cleansing.
I mainly agree that it is impossible to draw ethnic lines and especially
like "unless they go through the bedrooms". This only proves how crazy
it is and how immoral to justify anything in this war by ethnic or
national rights.
But that holds also for Kosovo. Even though it is more homogenuous,
(90% Albanian) Serbian claims based on history and national rights are
even stronger there, maybe, than in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Yet, they are
not just if they hurt the people who live there.
As you say:
>Second is the humane rights. Nobody ever drudged serbs in Bosnia. That's why
>a lot of Bosnian serbs want to live together (listen to bravery award
>journalist newswoman from Bosnia Mrs. Dubravka Knezevic, serb). Contrary,
>Albanians in Kosovo suffer the most brutal oppression ever known. 10% of
>serbian population do not allow 90% Albanians to use their language, to have
>any infrastructure like schools, hospitals, newspapers, TV, but anything.
This, BTW is not quite true, and there is a longer and complicated history
of what was going on in Kosovo during past 50 years. That is why the
problem with Kosovo is even more complicated than the problem with
Bosnia and Herzegovina. And it is preciselly complicated BECAUSE of the
nationalism on both sides and because the history of oppression in
Kosovo runs two ways - That is why any hope for peace there and anywhere
else must not be based on national rights but on human rights!!!
>In addition to that serbs are building the largest serbian church in the
>heart of Pristina (Kosovo capital). Will the serbs 500 years from now again
>claim that Pristina is the cradle of serbian nation because of this church.
>Reversing the direction, shall we now believe serbs when they say same on the
>basis of Pecka patrijarsija. Or maybe Pecka patrijarsia was built with the
>same intentions as the current church in Pristina. Kosovo is an ubiquitous
>example of serbian justice toward the non-serbs.
This is precisely illustrating my point: as long as people insist on
claiming lands and rights on nationalistic and religious basis there
will be no hope for peace. Our first and foremost rights are human
rights. And a second thing, history has been dragged into this war
just to blind everybody and push them into this nationalist frenzy.
People today are BLAMED for what somebody else did 50 years ago, 100
years ago, 1000 or 2000 years ago as if they themselves are guilty.
No one can say: "Hey, these people 500 years ago made terrible mistakes
but they also died 500 years ago and today we should know better."
What I mean is that you can't blame anybody for what their ancestors did,
only for what they (individually) do.
>That's why no non-serbs
>want to live together with serbs, and why all those cries for secessions
>have started. Non-serbs have no choice: freedom or death. It was the hope
>of non-serbs of former Yugo that USA and the West will see that.
Thinking like this is at the root of this war and it was imposed on
you and many others by propaganda. Dividing people into Serbs and
non-Serbs or into Muslims and non-Muslim or anything similar is
preposterous. It is preposterous when some Serbs do it but it is
no less preposterous when anybody else does it.
I can see a reason in deviding pople into Criminals and non-criminals
based on their actual deeds (which can be proven), but I see no
reason to devide people on the basis of their race, nationality or religion.
This latter is precisely a weapon used by the criminal leaders in order
to start mass hysteria which leads to war. While the criminals must be fought
and eventually punished, nations shouldn't. Calling Serbs as a nation
murderers, chetniks, nazis, etc, is the same as calling Croats a genocidal
nation etc... When we come back to normal thinking (I hope one day,
we will all see in this forum - soc.culture.yugoslavia or soc.culture.
bosna-herzgvna or soc.culture.croatia - as well educated intellectuals
that peoples of former Yugoslavia were devided, scapegoated, satanized
and then murdered, raped and tortured by the warmonger yugo-leaders
armdealers and others who, each in their own way, gained a lot (either
meterially or politically).
>Third are geographic reasons. Kosovo borders with Albania, while "Krajina"
>does not. (That's why serbs militants convulsively keep tiny strip south
>of Orasje.) That's precisely what defines the notion of minorities: people
>not belonging to the mother nation of the state and whose mother state is
>disjoint with the region they live in.
My arguments are preciselly against making anybody a majority or a
minority - politically! As long as there are political distinctions
between people based on race, religion and nationality no place in
former Yugoslavia (or the world) can be safe.
>Fourth are historic reasons. No Bosnian part (see my previous article about
>of Bosnia and her borders in this section), have ever belonged to Serbia.
>It was rather other way around: Sandzak and Monte-Negro part (around Niksic)
>were part of the Bosnian pashadom, given to Milos Obrenovic who helped
>Turkish sultan in suppressing Bosnian uprising for independence led by
>Husein Gradascevic (Dragon of Bosnia). Also, Kosovo before 1918 was never
>part of Serbia. Before 1918 Serbia used to have their consulate in Pristina.
I have already said what I think of using historical arguments - anybody
can use a period in history most favorable to their "rights". Instead
of learning from history in order not to make the same mistakes, everybody
is claiming historical "rights"! Greeks and Macedonians in this group
go even to the times of Alexander and Phillip of Macedonia! This dragging
of the history does not help the actual people today resolve the problem:
what to do to live in peace and dignity as human beings?
>Faruk.
All I want to say is that as people Yugoslav (or ex-YU) citizens have been
thrown against each others, devided and conquered by yet unrecognized
and undefined evil forces which do not deserve to be called by any nation's
name, since they are destroying and have destroyed indiscriminately
everybody who is in their way to get whatever it is they want. The
national proportions among these criminals are the same as the national
proportions of the people of ex-Yugoslavia - so they are predominantly
of the Serbian origin. This doesn't, however, mean that they really
are fighting for the Serbian nation (although many foot-soldiers amnog them
may indeed believe so). They are destroying lives of Serbian people in
Bosnia, Croatia and elswhere, as well in Serbia, as effectively as they
are doing it to other people. The other criminals who are not of
the Serbian origin are also very skillfully destroying people - Serbian
as well as other - but they pretend to have a moral advantage of a victim.
The only victim in this war are common people, all of them. And if there
could be any hope for peace it only could be forged if somehow the
people could realize that their enemy is not another nation but
common criminals.
Milan Stojanovic
>|>
>|> In ex-Yugoslavia there were six _nations_ and many national minorities.
>|> IL allows self-determination for nations, not minorities. Constitution
>|> of SFR of Yugoslavia allowed for self-determination of nations, not
>|> republics or provinces.
>
>This is not true. The Constitution of ex-Yugoslavia allowed separation
>of provinces. By the referendum. Precisely as it was done in the separated
>provinces.
Would you mind quoting the relevant chapter in both English and
Serbo-Croatian?
Milan
Milan Stojanovic
>fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
>>If the people of Sandzak and Kosovo do not want to live within Serbia,
>>why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question. There is
>>a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.
>
>According to the New York Times, Sandjak is 56% Muslim.
According to the official census, what is Rascia is 55% Serbian/
Montenegrian. Only in Tutin, Sjenica and Novi Pazar municipalities
there is Muslim majority.
>Since it has no formal borders, that number could just
>as easily be less than 50% depending on what borders one uses.
>
Exactly,
Rasputin
>That is why any hope for peace there and anywhere
>else must not be based on national rights but on human rights!!!
Hear hear. Politicians in the US like to talk about
'the spread of democracy', but democracy without human or
minority rights is no great thing.
Pure democracy can have 51% of the people voting to eat
the other 49%. The Bill of Rights is the best part
of the US government.
Lack of human/minority rights (perceived, feared or actual)
is what's driving so many of the current shooting wars around the
world.
--Branko
Milan Stojanovic
>In article <1992Dec10.0...@husc3.harvard.edu> stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>According to the official census, what is Rascia is 55% Serbian/
>
>What is "the official cencus"? It is difficult to take your information
>on faith.
1991, 1998, 1971 census data.
>
>
>/Joe Blazic
MNS
Victor Wickerhauser
Somehow I am not convinced.
>>/Joe Blazic
>
>MNS
I would say that some are a bit too quick to post, and a bit too slow
to verify.
--
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser <vic...@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone: USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749; FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Milan Stojanovic
>>|>
>>|> In ex-Yugoslavia there were six _nations_ and many national minorities.
>>|> IL allows self-determination for nations, not minorities. Constitution
>>|> of SFR of Yugoslavia allowed for self-determination of nations, not
>>|> republics or provinces.
>>
>>This is not true. The Constitution of ex-Yugoslavia allowed separation
>>of provinces. By the referendum. Precisely as it was done in the separated
>>provinces.
A friend of mine sent me the following:
THE CONSTITUTION OF THE SOCIALIST FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA
Introductory Part
BASIC PRINCIPLES
I
The nations of Yugoslavia, proceeding from the right of every nation to self-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
Not Republics!
Not minorities!
determination, including right to secession, on the basis of their will freely
expressed in the common struggle of all nations and nationalities in the Nation
al Liberation War and Socialist Revolution, and in confirmity with their histor
ic aspirations, aware that further consolidation of their brotherhood and unity
is in the common interest, have, together with nationalities with which they l
ive, united in a federal republic of free and equal nations and nationalities..
(Page 13).
Part One
ArtiCle 3
The Socialist Republics are states based on the sovereignity of the people and
~~~~~~~~~~
|
Not nations!
the power of and self-management by the working class and all working people.
They are socialist, self-managing democratic communities of the working people
and citizens and of nations and nationalities having equal rights. (page 28).
The Costitution of the SFRY, Cross-Cultural Communications, Merrick, NY 1976
*****************************************************************************
So until you find something better, I'll assume that you have
just been mislead by propaganda?
And no mention of "referendum." Oh, yes, Serbs are not people. I understand
that. Nothing changed from Ali-pasha's time.
Milan Stojanovic
>In article <1992Dec12.1...@husc3.harvard.edu> stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>In article <Bz46E...@ecf.toronto.edu> bla...@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>>>>According to the official census, what is Rascia is 55% Serbian/
>>>
>>>Milan, you have a terrible habit of submitting useless information.
>>>What is "the official cencus"? It is difficult to take your information
>>>on faith.
>>
>>1991, 1998, 1971 census data.
> ^^^^
Obviously 1981 census.
>
>Somehow I am not convinced.
>
>>>/Joe Blazic
>>
>>MNS
>
>--
>Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser <vic...@kirk.wustl.edu>
>Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
>Telephone: USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749; FAX: USA(314)727-4963
>Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
MNS
Erland Sommarskog
>Erland Sommarskog (som...@enea.se) writes:
>>>Serbs are fighting for
>>>self-determination, granted to every _nation_ in ex-Yugoslavia,
>>Sure, what about the Albanians? Or they are not a nation? Just
>>Unter-Menchen? Liar.
>
>Hold your donkeys, Erland. Have you ever heard me to say something bad
>about Albanians?
>
>In ex-Yugoslavia there were six _nations_ and many national minorities.
>IL allows self-determination for nations, not minorities.
And the Albanians were not worthy being a "nation" but only a "minority"?
Funny, they were more numerous than the Slovenes, weren't they? And
tell me who are in majority Kosovo?
One excuse I've heard for this bizarre arrangement is that there is
already an Albanian state, so therefore the Albanians in Yugoslavia
could not be a nation. I don't know if Milan Stojanovic agrees with
this argument, but if we apply this funny logic, we can only conclude
that Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina cannot be a nation, only
a minority, since there is a Serbian (and Montenegrin) state, and
therefore they are not granted self-determination.
>Constitution of SFR of Yugoslavia allowed for self-determination
>of nations, not republics or provinces. So Albanians are entitled
>to the highest degree of autonomy, but not to separate state, according
>to the international law.
Please quote relevant parts of international law that makes distinction
between "nation" and "minorites". Particulary were "minority" is used
is the same funny sense the SFRY constitution. But, of course, if
there is such a law, neither have the Serbs in Croatia and B-H any
right to seceede. If you are minority, it doesn't help if you are
actually in majority somewhere, minority you are.
>Of course, international law was already broken in the case of
>Yugoslavia, under pressure of Germany mostly, so this might not
>be an argument any more.
Germany? What has Germany to do with it? Oh, sorry, I forgot, like
any good Serb, he throws in Germany whenever there's need to point
at bad guy. Funny guys, those Serbs.
>In any case, I do believe that there must be territorial settlement
>between Albanians and Serbs, which would make all sides equally happy
>an equally unhappy, so the future friendly relations would be secured.
Well, I am glad to see you say something sensieble. I suppose
you realize that this territorial settlement means that Serbia
will have to kiss almost every sqaure inch of Kosovo bye-bye.
>>If the Serbs cannot get their self-determination by means of
>>ethnical cleansing it is highly disputable that this slime deserve
>>it. If they are so lowly primitive creatures, they should be be
>>put behind lock and have the key thrown away.
>
>Erland, you sound just like those Germans who committed 2000 attacks
>against their minorities in 1992. This language seems to suit you well.
Milan, why do you talk about Germans all the time? And why do you
write "their minorities"? Do those minorities belong to the handful
right-wing extremists who are guilty to these deeds?
How many attacks have Serbs committed against their Croats, Muslims,
Albanians and others this year? Or you don't want to talk about
that? More fun to drivel about Germans and WWII Croats?
Erland Sommarskog
>I did, VREME is cetnik's weekly, the seed of hatred against non-serbs.
Some weeks ago I was accussed for being a Chetnik extremist,
this time Vreme is at the target. Vreme which has been writing
anti-Milosevic articles since Milan Pavlovic knows when. Vreme
which last of all hail any Serbian state or greatness, but has
strongly criticized the on-going atrocities. Actually, sometimes
it's difficult to believe that Vreme is a Serbian magazine.
But, I suppose since Vreme at some page somewhere said something
critical about Bosnia-Hercegovina it is by definition Chetnik.
Boy, I got news for you: the world is full of Chetniks.
Nicholas Jodar
>And the Albanians were not worthy being a "nation" but only a "minority"?
>Funny, they were more numerous than the Slovenes, weren't they? And
>tell me who are in majority Kosovo?
...
>--
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
Aren't the Albanians in Kosovo extinct, by now? The last we
heard before the news blackout was that they had been surrounded
by the Serbs. Unlike Bosnia, this was simple extermination, the
Serbs starting on the perimeter and wiping everybody out as they
pushed toward the center.
That was weeks ago. Surely the Serbs have finished 'cleansing'
Kosovo by now....
-AQ
Senad Arnautovic
>But, I suppose since Vreme at some page somewhere said something
>critical about Bosnia-Hercegovina it is by definition Chetnik.
Erland, again you are exaggerating.
>Boy, I got news for you: the world is full of Chetniks.
Let's be serious, what do you blame the B-H government. What mistakes
did you believe it make? To my opinion, at first it tried by constructive
proposal to defuse the breakup of Yugoslavia. Later, it tried to work out
any deal that will prevent the war between Croatia and Serbia from
spilling over to B-H. At the end, when faced between staying in a rump
Yugoslavia with a prospect of becoming a province Kosovo-style, and
going independent, it chose independence believing it is in the interest
of the the majority of the population that voted for the government
(all three ethnic groups). When the newly-reborn country was attacked
by the Serbians with some help of the local nationalistic Serbs (that
did not support the government anyway), poorely armed B-H government
(in power for only 16 months) asked international community for help,
looked how the world reacted: after months of closing the eyes about
killing fields, it sent some U.N. bureacrats attempting to bring
the aggressor and the victim to the negotiating table in a hope
its top official will get a Nobel price for peace.
How come that the world media downgraded the official B-H government
to "one of the warring factions"?
So, maybe you are right, in the decision-making bodies and media there
may be a lot of Chetniks. Otherwise, the media would not use the adjective
"Muslim-led B-H government". Case in point, today it was reported
that a new "accord" in B-H is signed by a B-H representative Col. Stjepan
Siber, a Bosnian catholic.
>--
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
Senad H. Arnautovic
GENT HITO
In article 13821::soc.culture.yugoslavia aludra.usc.edu (Abdul Qadir) writes:
> Aren't the Albanians in Kosovo extinct, by now?
2000 years ago were the Romans... They came, they left, we remained...
1500 years later were the Osmans... They came, they left, we remained...
(yes, with some alien words in our language, but even those are dying
day by day...)
Somewhere in between there were people from the North. Many people...
They have already left too. A long time ago... Only some of them just
refuse to believe the fact...
I named only three. They were not the only ones. Many others passed
through. Most of them thought they would stay forever, but they left
too. We remained. In the land of our forefathers.
'Extinct'? Now ?????
Maybe some people are preparing yet another frightful tale for
my grandchildren. But... 'extinct'?
No, that's just about too much.
______________________________________________________________________
P.S.> I do not read this newsgroup anymore. Please spare your flames.
Milan Pavlovic
>In article <1gdokp...@GOLEM.MATH.YALE.EDU> wickerhau...@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec12.1...@husc3.harvard.edu> stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>>
>>>1991, 1998, 1971 census data.
>> ^^^^
>
>Obviously 1981 census.
>
>>
>>Somehow I am not convinced.
>>
Don't worry about it, Milane. Maybe if you had gotten a BS in Math at
Caltech and a PHD in Math at Yale, you wouldn't have made the error in numbers.
BTW, is this a dejavu or what :-) ?
Regards,
Milan
===============================================================================
M A C E D O N I A = H E L L A S
===============================================================================
Senad Arnautovic
>Regards,
>Milan
>===============================================================================
> M A C E D O N I A = H E L L A S
>===============================================================================
About this Macedonia=Hellas, this reminds me of a Serbian who in
a chat with an Italian mentioned to the Italian that now when
Croatia is independent Italy should take back parts of Adriatic Croatian
coast that sometime ago were under Italian jurisdiction. The Serb was clearily
falsifying history by implying that they (the Serbians) have liberated
all parts of former Yugoslavia.
With this smear Serbian policy, I would not be suprised to see history
repeat itself by bringing the following banner into reality:
=============================================================================
S E R B I A = B E L G R A D E P A S H A D O M
=============================================================================
For those of you who do not know about Balkan history, that is
historical Serbian state
B. pashadom = current Serbia - Vojvodina - Kosovo - current southern Serbia
Senad H. Arnautovic
Milan Stojanovic
>In article <1992Dec13.1...@husc3.harvard.edu> stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>>In article <Bz46E...@ecf.toronto.edu> bla...@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>>>Milan, you have a terrible habit of submitting useless information.
>>>What is "the official cencus"? It is difficult to take your information
>>>on faith.
>>
>>1991, 1998, 1971 census data.
>
You are waisting our time, Joeseph. There was something called
"Savezni Zavod za Statistiku." It was publishing yearly book on SFRJ
and results of every census. You should go to library and
check whether your university ordered such books.
The same source was used by Croats as an official one, so I am not
quite sure why are you complaining.
>/Joe Blazic
Ana M. Shane
>pavlovi...@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
>Senad H. Arnautovic
Bringing up historical rights to any part of land in the Balkans or
denying the same historical rights to any part of land, to any so called
"warring party" is totally irrelevant, counter-productive, pure emotional
slander! It doesn't help anyone and serves only to feed the hatred and
expand the war. This kind of "thinking" is the best tool of the criminals
who use it to cover up their horrible works and pack them in some
"nationalistic" glitter.
Instead of falling for the wrapping paper like any child, look for
anything that could bring PEACE to the people of the whole region.
Milan Stojanovic
>>Constitution of SFR of Yugoslavia allowed for self-determination
>>of nations, not republics or provinces. So Albanians are entitled
>>to the highest degree of autonomy, but not to separate state, according
>>to the international law.
>
>Please quote relevant parts of international law that makes distinction
Minority rights are defined in the UN Chapter and Helsinki Accord.
You can find them anywhere and try to find the right for self-determination.
You want be able to.
>is the same funny sense the SFRY constitution. But, of course, if
Not really. Minority is a group of people with a primary state somewhere
else. What was funny in SFRY was that there were six nations, instead
of one - Yugoslavs. Big mistake, but now it's history.
>there is such a law, neither have the Serbs in Croatia and B-H any
>right to seceede. If you are minority, it doesn't help if you are
Anyway, Serbs by the definition were not a minority in SFRY, because
they were constituent nation. Now, that situation has changed, and with
one signature EEC has turned Serbs into minority in ex-Bosnia and
ex-Croatia, but Serbs do not recongise it. And they will fight until
there is a change in that decision.
>actually in majority somewhere, minority you are.
>
Well, you are just making an argument for a sake of argument.
Other minorities in the Albanian sense are Hungarians in Yugoslavia
and Roumania, Serbs in Hungary, Albania, Roumania, Germans in
Poland ( this one must be painful, especially after recent incidents
in Poland ), to name few.
>>Of course, international law was already broken in the case of
>>Yugoslavia, under pressure of Germany mostly, so this mightOB not
>>be an argument any more.
>
>Germany? What has Germany to do with it?
According to the P. Carrington and S. Vance, the recognition was
strongly pushed in EEC by one member.
>Oh, sorry, I forgot, like
>any good Serb, he throws in Germany whenever there's need to point
>at bad guy. Funny guys, those Serbs.
I hope that I'll meet you once, so you will have chance to show me how
funny Serbs are. You are showing rather bad behaviour here. Show
more control in future, please.
>OB
>>In any case, I do believe that there must be territorial settlement
>>between Albanians and Serbs, which would make all sides equally happy
>>an equally unhappy, so the future friendly relations would be secured.
>
>Well, I am glad to see you say something sensieble.
Thanks.
>I suppose
>you realize that this territorial settlement means that Serbia
>will have to kiss almost every sqaure inch of Kosovo bye-bye.
>
Not really. There should be first internationally supervised
census. Two last ones ( 1981 and 1971 ) were not done correctly.
People were not allowed to say that they are Gorans, Turks, etc...
Also, there should be estimate how many of those Albanians are
legally in SRY ( there is no automatic citizenship if you are
born in SRY - illegal parents - illegal child - also there is
no amnesty for illegals ).
Calculation of moderate Serbs show that Serbia should get more than
30% of Kosovo and Metohija. Some important cultural monuments would
have to stay out of Serbia, because Serbs were minority there
for a quite a long time, but that is life.
Better that then war. Moreover, such a solution would leave
everyone happy and unhappy and would make a basis for a
good relations.
>Milan, why do you talk about Germans all the time? And why do you
>write "their minorities"? Do those minorities belong to the handful
>right-wing extremists who are guilty to these deeds?
>
No, some rather near future will show the exact percentage of those
supporting the right-wingers there. Descriptions of people watching
with joy youngsters beating Turks are pointing in this direction.
>How many attacks have Serbs committed against their Croats, Muslims,
>Albanians and others this year?
Against Albanians much less than Germans attacks on Turks. Far less.
With Croats and Muslims there is war going on. But Muslims and
Croats in SRY are far safer than Turks in Germany. At least they should be.
Unfortunately streets of Belgrade are not safe as they used to be,
but Serbs are equally unsafe, while armed people are roaming around, at
least that is what my friends are complaining. Thugs cannot
distinguish in Belgrade Muslims and Croats from Serbs the way than
can in Germany Turks from Germans.
BTW, both Croats in Vojvodina and Muslims in Sanjak should have
right for self-determination. Of course in those parts where they
are majority.
> Or you don't want to talk about
>that? More fun to drivel about Germans and WWII Croats?
>--
WWII Croats are 90% same as Croats today. That is, we have
rather mild people in some areas of Croatia, where we had mild people
during the WWII, and vice versa. Spiritual leaders during the WWII
brought up this generation. That is why it is important for people to
realize how deep is hatred toward Serbs and Orthodoxy rooted into
the Croatian Catholic church and that is why I'll post much more
documents showing that. Of course, most of them realize that they
should hide this, so they pretend.
Germans, I do not know. You called me a liar, why shouldn't I call
you Nazi? ( I know that you are not German ).
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
MNS
Senad Arnautovic
> Now, now, no need to get so upset. Here is the map for you, just so you have
>a visual sense of what it is that I'm talking about.
>===============================================================================
> \ I
> \ _____ |
> \ / / |
> \ / \_ / BULGARIA
>\ \_ | \ Southern \
> \_ \ / \ Serbia \
> \__ Adriatic Sea |_ | |
> \ | | |
> / | | _|___________
> \ | | ________/
> \ | ALBANIA \______/
> ITALY \_ | |
> \ | | Province of Macedonia
> \_ | |
> \_ | / G R E E C E
> \ / |
>===============================================================================
>Regards,
>Milan
>_______________________________________________________________________________
> M A C E D O N I A.....G R E E K F O R E V E R
>_______________________________________________________________________________
I am amazed that Milans (Stojanovic + Pavlovic)
in their effort to justify the Serbian land grab (and accompanying
attrocities) of
other south slavic countries (Croatia, Bosnia-Hercegovina and in a near
future seems to me Republic of Macedonia) always invoke parts of
history that serve their purpose. In that quest, they called all
Serbian kings, dukes, etc to claim a piece of land for the Serbians; they
go as far as 1000 years ago. However, never mentioned they Serbian Tsar Dusan
from 13th century when the Serbian empire was the largest. Why?
Because at that time Serbia occupied a large chunk of Greece, going
to the south halfway to the Athenes. The Serbs do not want to remind
that part of their history, fearing to allieniate Greece, their only
ally in the civilized world.
Senad H. Arnautovic
Boris Borcic
I believe this logic indeed played a considerable role. I had real
trouble understanding why so many Serbs living in or out of the territory
of the not-yet-constituted Croatia were so easily convinced that
negociation and playing by the democratic rules in or with the new state
was not an option to get what they wanted, and that an armed fight
was the only possibility/expectation.
The Croatian flag and the backing of the JNA could (and have been)
cited as "reasons". But the 45+ years lapse since the menace of the
offensive feature in the Croatian flag was last actual, as well as the
feeling of power from the backing of the JNA do not match the
impatience and even, considering its timing, hystery of the reaction.
On another hand, one can concieve that the prospect of finding
themselves, in (would-be) Croatia, suddenly on the cutting side
of the ill-principled rethoric on the status of minorities that
had recently gained dominance in Serbia a propos Kosovo
was a surprise with a nasty sting :-(
This view gains plausibility if one also views (as I do, admittedly
from a distance) as a necessity at the time the electoral impact
of a Tudjman-equivalent who would provide the croatian public
with an "personalised" approximation of the nationalistic language
it had been given to hear coming from Belgrade for a couple
years.
What a waste, -- but is there a lesson ?
Boris Borcic
bor...@divsun.unige.ch
PS: this is not to mean I endorse the shape of the croatian
government as it turns out *now*. But war, it seems to me,
started before it *did* anything really significant, and war
favors banditry anywhere.
Faruk od Bosne
In article <1992Dec12.1...@husc3.harvard.edu>,
stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec10.0...@husc3.harvard.edu>
stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
|> >In article <1992Dec9.0...@bnr.ca> fa...@bnr.ca writes:
|> >>|>
|> >>|> In ex-Yugoslavia there were six _nations_ and many national minorities.
|> >>|> IL allows self-determination for nations, not minorities. Constitution
|> >>|> of SFR of Yugoslavia allowed for self-determination of nations, not
|> >>|> republics or provinces.
|> >>
|> >>This is not true. The Constitution of ex-Yugoslavia allowed separation
|> ~~~~~~~~
|> >>of provinces. By the referendum. Precisely as it was done in the separated
|> >>provinces.
|>
|>
|> just been mislead by propaganda?
|> And no mention of "referendum." Oh, yes, Serbs are not people. I understand
|> that. Nothing changed from Ali-pasha's time.
This might be found in Yugoslavia Constitutional Chronology 1986 - 1991
published in: Constitutions of the countries of the world, Editors:
Albert Blaustein & Gisbert Flanz (Yugoslavia supplement), May 1991 Oceana
Publishing Inc., Dobbs Ferry, New York.
On Dec. 23, [1990] Slovenia held a referendum on its right to secession
^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
which was overwhelmingly approved. 94.6% of the voters supported the
principle that the Republic of Slovenia should declare itself "an independent
and sovereign state" ...
1991 Jan 14 .... this did not discourage the Macedonian Assembly to proclaim
the sovereignty of Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian peoples's right
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
to self-determination. It did not call for an and of the Yu federation but
it reserved the right of secession.
A new Constitution of Croatia was promulgated by the Croatian Assembly on
Dec 21. It affirmed its sovereignty and its right to secede from Yugoslavia.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Faruk.
Faruk od Bosne
In article <1992Dec10.0...@husc3.harvard.edu>,
stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
|> In article <Byzqz...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> brg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(Rasputin) writes:
|> >fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
|> >>If the people of Sandzak and Kosovo do not want to live within Serbia,
|> >>why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question.
There is
|> >>a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.
|> >
|> >According to the New York Times, Sandjak is 56% Muslim.
According to 1991 census Vojvodina is only 54% serbian.
Faruk.
Faruk od Bosne
>In article <Dec.10.04.10...@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
>>fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
>|>In article <Dec.9.02.23....@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
>|>psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>|> fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
>|>
>|> >If the people of Sandzak and Kosovo do not want to live within Serbia,
>|> >why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question.
>There is
>|> >a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.
>|>
>|> Well, then, why not the same standard for the Serbs? If the Serbs in
Croatia
>|> and Bosnia and herzegovina do not want to live within these republics, why
>|> should they be forced?
>|>
>|> See, the arguments in this war, the one based on national rights cancel
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> each other!! And Kosovo is the reversed issue: if you apply arguments
^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> that defend borders of Croatia and BiH, then you also have to defend
>|> the borders of Serbia (which have always included Kosovo, even when it was
>|> an autonomous province, it was a province in Serbia). If you say that
>Serbia
>|> should give Kosovo to Albanians, then why not the Croatian and the Bosnian
>|> Krajinas to Serbs?
>
>This was my point:
And point is a point is a point ...
>the arguments based on national rights cancel each other
>and only add to fear hatred and continuation of the war!!!
... and your arguments stink.
Good fence makes good neighbors.
>You proceed to prove who has greater national rights:
Not at all. You lost me altogether. I said, as well as all others,
that all nations have their rights. And my positions is that all nations
have equal rights to exist in freedom and dignity. And I was trying to
give you some facts, with the aim of learning.
>>Well mme, let's go one think at a time.
>>First I have never said that serbs in "Krajina" should not get the right for
>>independence. However, at least in Bosnia, they have no "clean"
territory. In
>>some parts of Bosnia serbs are simple majority, however 10 km down the road
>>they are minority. (In this respect I would rather call "Krtajina" a region,
>>like Sumadija or Slavonija, etc.) President Izetbegovic used to say that
>>Bosnia is like a leopard fur pattern. It is impossible to draw ethnic lines
>>unless they go through the bedrooms. Kosovo for comparison is not. That's
>>why serbs in Bosnia resorted to the ethnic cleansing.
I am talking here about integrity of Bosnia, and separability of Kosovo
from Serbia.
>But that holds also for Kosovo. Even though it is more homogenuous,
>(90% Albanian) Serbian claims based on history and national rights are
>even stronger there, maybe, than in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Yet, they are
>not just if they hurt the people who live there.
... and you through me into the history. Toward the end you will abandon
historic arguments.
>As you say:
>>Second is the human rights. Nobody ever drudged serbs in Bosnia. That's why
>>a lot of Bosnian serbs want to live together (listen to bravery award
>>journalist newswoman from Bosnia Mrs. Dubravka Knezevic, serb). Contrary,
>>Albanians in Kosovo suffer the most brutal oppression ever known. 10% of
>>serbian population do not allow 90% Albanians to use their language, to have
>>any infrastructure like schools, hospitals, newspapers, TV, but anything.
I am talking here about human rights ...
>This, BTW is not quite true, and there is a longer and complicated history
>of what was going on in Kosovo during past 50 years. That is why the
>problem with Kosovo is even more complicated than the problem with
>Bosnia and Herzegovina. And it is preciselly complicated BECAUSE of the
>nationalism on both sides and because the history of oppression in
>Kosovo runs two ways - That is why any hope for peace there and anywhere
>else must not be based on national rights but on human rights!!!
... you brought me into history. BTW, what is that is not quite true?
You want more: indiscriminate killing by serbian police of demonstrators,
youngsters on the market, 0.5 milion Albanians interrogated in serbian
prisons. There is not enough space to tell you everything.
>>In addition to that serbs are building the largest serbian church in the
>>heart of Pristina (Kosovo capital). Will the serbs 500 years from now again
>>claim that Pristina is the cradle of serbian nation because of this church.
>>Reversing the direction, shall we now believe serbs when they say same
on the
>>basis of Pecka patrijarsija. Or maybe Pecka patrijarsia was built with the
>>same intentions as the current church in Pristina. Kosovo is an ubiquitous
>>example of serbian justice toward the non-serbs.
With hopes for peace upon you.
___ ___
___ _/ \ / //
\_/ @ \ / // _/////
/|-\_ \/ // _/ _/
| \ \__//__/ _/
()/ \ __ /
/ () \_ \____ |////<
() \_ \_______\
\______/
>Ana M. Shane voice: (215)-843-2909
>334 Winona St.
>Philadelphia, PA 19144 e-mail: psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu
Faruk.
Faruk od Bosne
>In article <Dec.10.04.10...@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
>>fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
I am talking here about history ...
>This is precisely illustrating my point: as long as people insist on
>claiming lands and rights on nationalistic and religious basis there
>will be no hope for peace. Our first and foremost rights are human
>rights. And a second thing, history has been dragged into this war
>just to blind everybody and push them into this nationalist frenzy.
>People today are BLAMED for what somebody else did 50 years ago, 100
>years ago, 1000 or 2000 years ago as if they themselves are guilty.
>No one can say: "Hey, these people 500 years ago made terrible mistakes
>but they also died 500 years ago and today we should know better."
>What I mean is that you can't blame anybody for what their ancestors did,
>only for what they (individually) do.
... and you brought me to relativism. Which people 500 years ago made
terrible mistakes? You don't know what you are talking about.
>>That's why no non-serbs
>>want to live together with serbs, and why all those cries for secessions
>>have started. Non-serbs have no choice: freedom or death. It was the hope
>>of non-serbs of former Yugo that USA and the West will see that.
>Thinking like this is at the root of this war and it was imposed on
>you and many others by propaganda. Dividing people into Serbs and
>non-Serbs or into Muslims and non-Muslim or anything similar is
>preposterous. It is preposterous when some Serbs do it but it is
>no less preposterous when anybody else does it.
What do you offer? Old Yugo? Yugo is no more. Because its peoples at
least 4 out of 6 decided so. Yugo was the serbian prison of non-serbs.
As it is now Serboslavia for Albanians, Muslims, and other non-serbs.
>and eventually punished, nations shouldn't. Calling Serbs as a nation
>murderers, chetniks, nazis, etc, is the same as calling Croats a genocidal
>nation etc...
>When we come back to normal thinking (I hope one day,
... or one day after that day?
>>Third are geographic reasons. Kosovo borders with Albania, while "Krajina"
>>does not. (That's why serbs militants convulsively keep tiny strip south
>>of Orasje.) That's precisely what defines the notion of minorities: people
>>not belonging to the mother nation of the state and whose mother state is
>>disjoint with the region they live in.
>My arguments are preciselly against making anybody a majority or a
>minority - politically!
What do you offer? Communism?
>>Fourth are historic reasons. No Bosnian part (see my previous article about
>>of Bosnia and her borders in this section), have ever belonged to Serbia.
>>It was rather other way around: Sandzak and Monte-Negro part (around Niksic)
>>were part of the Bosnian pashadom, given to Milos Obrenovic who helped
>>Turkish sultan in suppressing Bosnian uprising for independence led by
>>Husein Gradascevic (Dragon of Bosnia). Also, Kosovo before 1918 was never
>>part of Serbia. Before 1918 Serbia used to have their consulate in Pristina.
>I have already said what I think of using historical arguments - anybody
>can use a period in history most favorable to their "rights".
Read the second sentence. I said No Bosnian part, have ever belonged to Serbia.
>Instead
>of learning from history in order not to make the same mistakes, everybody
>is claiming historical "rights"! Greeks and Macedonians in this group
>go even to the times of Alexander and Phillip of Macedonia! This dragging
>of the history does not help the actual people today resolve the problem:
>what to do to live in peace and dignity as human beings?
If Macedonians feel like Greeks, so be it. However seems they do not.
>Faruk.
>All I want to say is that as people Yugoslav (or ex-YU) citizens have been
>thrown against each others,
No. There is only fight between serbs and non-serbs. Serbs are fighting
everybody to leave their properties to them and leave, live or dead. Do
you know wht does the ethnic cleansing mean? Never heard about?
>devided and conquered by yet unrecognized
>and undefined evil forces which do not deserve to be called by any nation's
>name, since they are destroying and have destroyed indiscriminately
>may indeed believe so). They are destroying lives of Serbian people in
>Bosnia, Croatia and elswhere, as well in Serbia, as effectively as they
>are doing it to other people. The other criminals who are not of
>the Serbian origin are also very skillfully destroying people - Serbian
>as well as other - but they pretend to have a moral advantage of a victim.
Bla, bla, bla...
There is a difference between thinking and .... As Amers say: do what you
do best.
Faruk od Bosne
>In article <Dec.10.04.10...@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
>>fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
I am talking here about history ...
>This is precisely illustrating my point: as long as people insist on
>claiming lands and rights on nationalistic and religious basis there
>will be no hope for peace. Our first and foremost rights are human
>rights. And a second thing, history has been dragged into this war
>just to blind everybody and push them into this nationalist frenzy.
>People today are BLAMED for what somebody else did 50 years ago, 100
>years ago, 1000 or 2000 years ago as if they themselves are guilty.
>No one can say: "Hey, these people 500 years ago made terrible mistakes
>but they also died 500 years ago and today we should know better."
>What I mean is that you can't blame anybody for what their ancestors did,
>only for what they (individually) do.
... and you brought me to relativism. Which people 500 years ago have made
terrible mistakes? You don't know what you are talking about.
>>That's why no non-serbs
>>want to live together with serbs, and why all those cries for secessions
>>have started. Non-serbs have no choice: freedom or death. It was the hope
>>of non-serbs of former Yugo that USA and the West will see that.
>Thinking like this is at the root of this war and it was imposed on
>you and many others by propaganda. Dividing people into Serbs and
>non-Serbs or into Muslims and non-Muslim or anything similar is
>preposterous. It is preposterous when some Serbs do it but it is
>no less preposterous when anybody else does it.
What do you offer? Old Yugo? Yugo is no more. Because its peoples at
least 4 out of 6 decided so. Yugo was the serbian prison of non-serbs.
As it is now Serboslavia for Albanians, Muslims, and other non-serbs.
>and eventually punished, nations shouldn't. Calling Serbs as a nation
>murderers, chetniks, nazis, etc, is the same as calling Croats a genocidal
>nation etc...
>When we come back to normal thinking (I hope one day,
... or one day after that day.
>>Third are geographic reasons. Kosovo borders with Albania, while "Krajina"
>>does not. (That's why serbs militants convulsively keep tiny strip south
>>of Orasje.) That's precisely what defines the notion of minorities: people
>>not belonging to the mother nation of the state and whose mother state is
>>disjoint with the region they live in.
>My arguments are preciselly against making anybody a majority or a
>minority - politically!
What do you offer? Communism? They had it for 45 years.
>>Fourth are historic reasons. No Bosnian part (see my previous article about
>>of Bosnia and her borders in this section), have ever belonged to Serbia.
>>It was rather other way around: Sandzak and Monte-Negro part (around Niksic)
>>were part of the Bosnian pashadom, given to Milos Obrenovic who helped
>>Turkish sultan in suppressing Bosnian uprising for independence led by
>>Husein Gradascevic (Dragon of Bosnia). Also, Kosovo before 1918 was never
>>part of Serbia. Before 1918 Serbia used to have their consulate in Pristina.
>I have already said what I think of using historical arguments - anybody
>can use a period in history most favorable to their "rights".
Read the second sentence. I said no Bosnian part, have ever belonged to Serbia.
>Instead
>of learning from history in order not to make the same mistakes, everybody
>is claiming historical "rights"! Greeks and Macedonians in this group
>go even to the times of Alexander and Phillip of Macedonia! This dragging
>of the history does not help the actual people today resolve the problem:
>what to do to live in peace and dignity as human beings?
If Macedonians feel like Greeks, so be it. However seems they do not.
>Faruk.
>All I want to say is that as people Yugoslav (or ex-YU) citizens have been
>thrown against each others,
No. There is only fight between serbs and non-serbs. Serbs want to ethnically
cleanse Muslims and Croats.
>devided and conquered by yet unrecognized
>and undefined evil forces which do not deserve to be called by any nation's
>name, since they are destroying and have destroyed indiscriminately
>may indeed believe so). They are destroying lives of Serbian people in
>Bosnia, Croatia and elswhere, as well in Serbia, as effectively as they
>are doing it to other people. The other criminals who are not of
>the Serbian origin are also very skillfully destroying people - Serbian
>as well as other - but they pretend to have a moral advantage of a victim.
Bla, bla, bla...
You know there is a difference between thinking and .... As Amers say:
BLAZIC Joseph R
>
>You are waisting our time, Joeseph. There was something called
>"Savezni Zavod za Statistiku." It was publishing yearly book on SFRJ
>and results of every census. You should go to library and
>check whether your university ordered such books.
>
>The same source was used by Croats as an official one, so I am not
>quite sure why are you complaining.
Stunning logic Milan. How could I have been 'complaining' about a
source which you just _now_ revealed to me?
And BTW, I was _questioning_.
/Joe Blazic
BLAZIC Joseph R
>
>strongly pushed in EEC by one member.
That was recognition of Slovenia and Croatia. Bosnia's recognition, on
the other hand, was pushed mostly by the UN (i.e. the US). Carrington
and Vance conveniently ignore this fact (i.e. wash their hands).
/Joe Blazic
Milan Stojanovic
>
>In article <1992Dec12.1...@husc3.harvard.edu>,
>stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>|> In article <1992Dec10.0...@husc3.harvard.edu>
>stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>|> >In article <1992Dec9.0...@bnr.ca> fa...@bnr.ca writes:
Faruk should re-read the following chapter he wrote:
>|> >>This is not true. The Constitution of ex-Yugoslavia allowed separation
>|> ~~~~~~~~
>|> >>of provinces. By the referendum. Precisely as it was done in the separated
>|> >>provinces.
>|>
This is of course not true. I have quoted the relevant chapter of the
Constitution, but nothing happened. He started with:
O>
>This might be found in Yugoslavia Constitutional Chronology 1986 - 1991
>published in: Constitutions of the countries of the world, Editors:
>Albert Blaustein & Gisbert Flanz (Yugoslavia supplement), May 1991 Oceana
>Publishing Inc., Dobbs Ferry, New York.
>
>On Dec. 23, [1990] Slovenia held a referendum on its right to secession
> ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>which was overwhelmingly approved. 94.6% of the voters supported the
>principle that the Republic of Slovenia should declare itself "an independent
>and sovereign state" ...
>
>1991 Jan 14 .... this did not discourage the Macedonian Assembly to proclaim
>the sovereignty of Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian peoples's right
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to self-determination. It did not call for an and of the Yu federation but
>it reserved the right of secession.
>
>A new Constitution of Croatia was promulgated by the Croatian Assembly on
>Dec 21. It affirmed its sovereignty and its right to secede from Yugoslavia.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Faruk.
So where is the quote of the Constitution of ex- SFR Yugoslavia?
Dear Faruk of ex-Bosnia, you should read again carefully
what you wrote and you might see that there is no connection
between what you have just posted and what you have claimed
earlier.
So, you have tried to mislead the audience, if there is any, which I
doubt. Whether on purpose or not, I do not know.
Regards,
Milan N. Stojanovic
Ana M. Shane
made several belittling remarks. I do not write here to insult
anybody, but to voice my opinions which are based in my knowledge
of the situation in the former Yu. I agree that my knowledge does
not exceede an average news and media reader's one + some personal
communication from friends in the former YU (not just one Republic).
I agree also, that anybody can question it and offer more facts.
But I do not approve of personal attacks, since they are insulting
counterproductive, and in general just abuse the network and its
readers. I will aswer some of the Faruk's comments here, because I don't
think he was deliberately malicious (since he doesn't know me personally)
but just hurt. In the future, I will refrain from answering insulting
postings.
fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
>part 1
>>In article <Dec.10.04.10...@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
>>>fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
>>|>In article <Dec.9.02.23....@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
>>|>psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>>|> fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
FARUK:
>If the people of Sandzak and Kosovo do not want to live within Serbia,
>why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question.
>There is
>a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.
ANA:
|> Well, then, why not the same standard for the Serbs? If the Serbs in
|>Croatia
|> and Bosnia and herzegovina do not want to live within these republics, why
|> should they be forced?
|>
|> See, the arguments in this war, the one based on national rights cancel
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> each other!! And Kosovo is the reversed issue: if you apply arguments
^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> that defend borders of Croatia and BiH, then you also have to defend
|> the borders of Serbia (which have always included Kosovo, even when it was
|> an autonomous province, it was a province in Serbia). If you say that
|>Serbia
|> should give Kosovo to Albanians, then why not the Croatian and the Bosnian
|> Krajinas to Serbs?
|>This was my point:
FARUK:
>And point is a point is a point ...
A: In other words, Faruk tells us that Ana is just rattling....
ANA:
|>the arguments based on national rights cancel each other
|>and only add to fear hatred and continuation of the war!!!
FARUK:
>... and your arguments stink.
>Good fence makes good neighbors.
A: There are nicer ways to say the same! And even if it is true that
a good fence makes good neighbors, it is impossible to make a
good fence between the national groups in the Balkans. Somewhere
else you said that (paraphrase) one would have to go through
bedrooms!! So, there is one fact, I hope you agree with me:
borders based on national principle are impossible - or you
have a war like the one going on with "ethnic cleansing".
Do you agree?
ANA:
|>You proceed to prove who has greater national rights:
FARUK:
>Not at all. You lost me altogether. I said, as well as all others,
>that all nations have their rights. And my positions is that all nations
>have equal rights to exist in freedom and dignity. And I was trying to
>give you some facts, with the aim of learning.
A: O.K. Maybe I didn't quite get this about dignity and freedom. In that
I agree with all my heart.
FARUK:
>Well mme, let's go one think at a time.
>First I have never said that serbs in "Krajina" should not get the right for
>independence. However, at least in Bosnia, they have no "clean"
>territory. In
>some parts of Bosnia serbs are simple majority, however 10 km down the road
>they are minority. (In this respect I would rather call "Krtajina" a region,
>like Sumadija or Slavonija, etc.) President Izetbegovic used to say that
>Bosnia is like a leopard fur pattern. It is impossible to draw ethnic lines
>unless they go through the bedrooms. Kosovo for comparison is not. That's
>why serbs in Bosnia resorted to the ethnic cleansing.
>I am talking here about integrity of Bosnia, and separability of Kosovo
>from Serbia.
ANA:
|>But that holds also for Kosovo. Even though it is more homogenuous,
|>(90% Albanian) Serbian claims based on history and national rights are
|>even stronger there, maybe, than in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Yet, they are
|>not just if they hurt the people who live there.
FARUK:
>... and you through me into the history. Toward the end you will abandon
>historic arguments.
A: You missed my point (again a point!) Geographically - yes, maybe
Albanians in Kosovo are geographically easier to separate from
Serbia. Psychologically - no. More Serbians view Kosovo as an
integral part of Serbia from which they have been pushed out by
various manipulations of the former regime, than they view Bosnia
to be a part of Serbia. Today the people of Serbia (within the
borders of Serbia) are very divided regarding the war in Bosnia
and I may even guess that more of them are against it and if
asked would probably vote for its end. And if more of them only
knew about its true nature, even more of them would be against
it. But, their feelings about Kosovo are quite different and
there they are more united. That is why Kosovo isn't any more
separable from Serbia than Bosnia is divisible into ethnic
Kantons. [BTW, I am not justifying the regime in Kosovo here!
I think that it should be stopped immediately. But I have
just tried to outline the state of the affairs].
ANA
|>As you say:
FARUK:
>Second is the human rights. Nobody ever drudged serbs in Bosnia. That's why
>a lot of Bosnian serbs want to live together (listen to bravery award
>journalist newswoman from Bosnia Mrs. Dubravka Knezevic, serb). Contrary,
>Albanians in Kosovo suffer the most brutal oppression ever known. 10% of
>serbian population do not allow 90% Albanians to use their language, to have
>any infrastructure like schools, hospitals, newspapers, TV, but anything.
>I am talking here about human rights ...
ANA:
|>This, BTW is not quite true, and there is a longer and complicated history
|>of what was going on in Kosovo during past 50 years. That is why the
|>problem with Kosovo is even more complicated than the problem with
|>Bosnia and Herzegovina. And it is preciselly complicated BECAUSE of the
|>nationalism on both sides and because the history of oppression in
|>Kosovo runs two ways - That is why any hope for peace there and anywhere
|>else must not be based on national rights but on human rights!!!
FARUK:
>... you brought me into history. BTW, what is that is not quite true?
>You want more: indiscriminate killing by serbian police of demonstrators,
>youngsters on the market, 0.5 milion Albanians interrogated in serbian
>prisons. There is not enough space to tell you everything.
A: I agree as I said that the opression in Kosovo is terrible and
should be stopped immediately. What I meant with "it is not
quite true" is the following: In the recent history (not 500,
or 2000 years ago - but in the past 50 years since the end
of the WWII) the manipulations of the peoples in the Kosovo
region were aimed at both sides. First, (right after the WWII)
the Serbs who fled the region during the War were forbiden to
return to their homes and land. Then the refugees from Albania
were not only taken in, but also given houses, land and rights
of citizenship (without really establishing it) in Yugoslavia.
Then for years the taxes from the whole country, but especially
Serbia were poured into the Kosovo province to help their economy
as an undeveloped region. At the same time, the authorities in Kosovo
embraced education from Albania proper (which was openly hostile
to the Yugoslavian regime and Serbia in particular) - importing
textbooks and curricula which openly fostered hatred toward
non-Albanian neighbors. And while leading Albanians in Yugoslavia
were equal partners in the tops of the federal government and had
not just an autonomy in the ruling in Kosovo, but even the power of
veto over decisions in the Serbian parlament, at the same time
a quiet "ethnic cleansing" of the remaining Serbian population
in Kosovo was going on. This was all possible because the
regime (communist - or call it what you wish) was already playing
their deadly games of devide and rule. Instead of using all the
economic help they have received over the years, the leadership
of Kosovo had held their people in the state of utter poverty,
indoctrinating them with hatred against Serbs. All that in the
times when they had all the rights in the world as an ethinc
group. Why did they do it, I don't know, but what I know is that
there was absolutely NO Serbian domination in Kosovo at that
time - quite the opposite, in fact. The time I am talking about is
the time prior to Milosevic.
That is the complicated "history" of Kosovo - as much as the
Albanians are now oppressed, so were the Serbs oppressed during
the autonomy of the Kosovo region. I do not approve of either
oppression. I think the Albanian people were terribly manipulated
and deliberately kept in poverty by their leaders. I think that
now they are the victims of the Serbian leadership. As well as
the Serbian people in Kosovo were victims of Albanian leaders,
and now are manipulated by the Serbian leadership.
In that one case, one can see how national leaders on both sides
have used and still use nationalism as a tool to separate and devide
people in order to keep them opressed, and at least quiet while
they (the leaders) themselves gain more power and more wealth.
FARUK:
>In addition to that serbs are building the largest serbian church in the
>heart of Pristina (Kosovo capital). Will the serbs 500 years from now again
>claim that Pristina is the cradle of serbian nation because of this church.
>Reversing the direction, shall we now believe serbs when they say same
>on the
>basis of Pecka patrijarsija. Or maybe Pecka patrijarsia was built with the
>same intentions as the current church in Pristina. Kosovo is an ubiquitous
>example of serbian justice toward the non-serbs.
A: You see, it is crazy to invoke history in order to justify criminal
deeds. That holds for Serbs, but also for Albanians, Croats, Bosnians,
Greeks, Macedonians, .... everybody. History should be used to
learn better, to say: Hey, if our forfathers did this, we won't! And,
Hey, If your forfathers did this and that, it doesn't make YOU
guilty! Only with reasoning like that the blood feuds in the Balkans
can be stopped.
ANA:
|> With hopes for peace (upon you. - added by Faruk, a nice touch!)
|> ___ ___
|> ___ _/ \ / //
|> \_/ @ \ / // _/////
|> /|-\_ \/ // _/ _/
|> | \ \__//__/ _/
|> ()/ \ __ /
|> / () \_ \____ |////<
|> () \_ \_______\
|> \______/
|>Ana M. Shane voice: (215)-843-2909
|>334 Winona St.
|>Philadelphia, PA 19144 e-mail: psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu
>Faruk.
And with hopes for a better understanding and peace,
Regards,
Ana M. Shane
____
/ ___)
__________ / /________
________)_
__________)
_____________ ________)
\________)
Faruk od Bosne
writes:
>A: You missed my point (again a point!) Geographically - yes, maybe
> Albanians in Kosovo are geographically easier to separate from
> Serbia. Psychologically - no.
Shall I conclude that Albanians in Kosovo (1.8 out of 2 millions) are
psyhologically not prepared to separate from Serbia? You must be joking.
> That is the complicated "history" of Kosovo - as much as the
> Albanians are now oppressed, so were the Serbs oppressed during
> the autonomy of the Kosovo region. I do not approve of either
> ....
> and now are manipulated by the Serbian leadership.
Either take the history as an argument or not. If you do then inform
yourself. You can start by the book written by Branko Horvat: Kosovsko
pitanje.
>>In addition to that, serbs are building the largest serbian church in the
>>heart of Pristina (Kosovo capital).
This is not a history. This is, what you would call, state of the affairs.
>A: You see, it is crazy to invoke history in order to justify criminal
> deeds. That holds for Serbs, but also for Albanians, Croats, Bosnians,
Guess who is forgeing a history to justify criminal deeds? This is not a war,
since in a war you have two armed parties fighting for their causes. This
is not an ethnic conflict, since only serbs are fighting all others. This
is a genocide systematically carried out by serbs over the non-serb population
of former Yugoslavia. As the UN officer said the ethnic cleansing is not the
outcome but the goal of this campaign.
Faruk.
Faruk od Bosne
In Article 852 of soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna Ana M. Shane writes:
Message-ID: <Dec.16.03.08....@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:08:44 GMT
>A: You missed my point (again a point!) Geographically - yes, maybe
> Albanians in Kosovo are geographically easier to separate from
> Serbia. Psychologically - no.
Shall I conclude that Albanians in Kosovo (1.8 millions) are psyhologically
Faruk od Bosne
In Article 852 of soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Ana M. Shane
replies are aimed at insulting me, and not discussing the issues.
That, however doesn't serve any good to anybody.
For the sake of the argument, I'll make comments on this posting,
just to show that peace-talk is better than war-talk. Please,
do not be ofended, this is not my aim.
fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
>part 2
>>In article <Dec.10.04.10...@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
>>>fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
FARUK:
>I am talking here about history ...
ANA:
>>This is precisely illustrating my point: as long as people insist on
>>claiming lands and rights on nationalistic and religious basis there
>>will be no hope for peace. Our first and foremost rights are human
>>rights. And a second thing, history has been dragged into this war
>>just to blind everybody and push them into this nationalist frenzy.
>>People today are BLAMED for what somebody else did 50 years ago, 100
>>years ago, 1000 or 2000 years ago as if they themselves are guilty.
>>No one can say: "Hey, these people 500 years ago made terrible mistakes
>>but they also died 500 years ago and today we should know better."
>>What I mean is that you can't blame anybody for what their ancestors did,
>>only for what they (individually) do.
FARUK:
>... and you brought me to relativism. Which people 500 years ago made
>terrible mistakes? You don't know what you are talking about.
A: There is nothing relative in what I had said: All of the warring
people 500 years ago (or take any period of war in the Balkans),
all of those who instigated wars, atrocities, genocides, you name
it, made terrible mistakes! Are their children guilty? Are children
of their children, and the generations after, guilty for any part
of the history?
FARUK:
>>>That's why no non-serbs
>>>want to live together with serbs, and why all those cries for secessions
>>>have started. Non-serbs have no choice: freedom or death. It was the hope
>>>of non-serbs of former Yugo that USA and the West will see that.
ANA:
>>Thinking like this is at the root of this war and it was imposed on
>>you and many others by propaganda. Dividing people into Serbs and
>>non-Serbs or into Muslims and non-Muslim or anything similar is
>>preposterous. It is preposterous when some Serbs do it but it is
>>no less preposterous when anybody else does it.
FARUK:
>What do you offer? Old Yugo? Yugo is no more. Because its peoples at
>least 4 out of 6 decided so. Yugo was the serbian prison of non-serbs.
>As it is now Serboslavia for Albanians, Muslims, and other non-serbs.
A: I offer anything that will make people realize that it is not
the people of another nation that oppress them, but their own
leaders together with the leaders of the "other" nations. Please,
there is absolutely no sense in saying that Yugoslavia was a
serbian prison for non-serbs. Serbian people along with everybody else
was equally devastated and economically destroyed by the previous
regime! If Yugoslavia was a prison it was a prison for everyone
and the keepers of that prison certainly were not just Serbs. There
were plenty of Slovenians, Croats, Bosnians (muslim and other),
Albanians, Montenegrinians, Macedonians in the top and middle
and lower ranks in the government! And what these people - all of
them did to Yugoslavia's peoples was a complete theft and economic
destruction and a communist-nationalistic politics that started
deviding people along nationalistic lines at least 20 years
ago (1974 Constitution or even before at the time of the so called
"Croatian Spring").
ANA:
>>and eventually punished, nations shouldn't. Calling Serbs as a nation
>>murderers, chetniks, nazis, etc, is the same as calling Croats a genocidal
>>nation etc...
>>When we come back to normal thinking (I hope one day,
FARUK:
>... or one day after that day?
A: Or the day after that!
FARUK:
>>>Third are geographic reasons. Kosovo borders with Albania, while "Krajina"
>>>does not. (That's why serbs militants convulsively keep tiny strip south
>>>of Orasje.) That's precisely what defines the notion of minorities: people
>>>not belonging to the mother nation of the state and whose mother state is
>>>disjoint with the region they live in.
ANA:
>>My arguments are preciselly against making anybody a majority or a
>>minority - politically!
FARUK:
>What do you offer? Communism?
A: No - democracy in the true sense: civil equality!
FARUK:
>>>Fourth are historic reasons. No Bosnian part (see my previous article about
>>>of Bosnia and her borders in this section), have ever belonged to Serbia.
>>>It was rather other way around: Sandzak and Monte-Negro part (around Niksic)
>>>were part of the Bosnian pashadom, given to Milos Obrenovic who helped
>>>Turkish sultan in suppressing Bosnian uprising for independence led by
>>>Husein Gradascevic (Dragon of Bosnia). Also, Kosovo before 1918 was never
>>>part of Serbia. Before 1918 Serbia used to have their consulate in Pristina.
ANA:
>>I have already said what I think of using historical arguments - anybody
>>can use a period in history most favorable to their "rights".
FARUK:
>Read the second sentence. I said No Bosnian part, have ever belonged to Serbia.
A: So?
ANA:
>>Instead
>>of learning from history in order not to make the same mistakes, everybody
>>is claiming historical "rights"! Greeks and Macedonians in this group
>>go even to the times of Alexander and Phillip of Macedonia! This dragging
>>of the history does not help the actual people today resolve the problem:
>>what to do to live in peace and dignity as human beings?
FARUK:
>If Macedonians feel like Greeks, so be it. However seems they do not.
>>Faruk.
ANA:
>>All I want to say is that as people Yugoslav (or ex-YU) citizens have been
>>thrown against each others,
FARUK:
>No. There is only fight between serbs and non-serbs. Serbs are fighting
>everybody to leave their properties to them and leave, live or dead. Do
>you know wht does the ethnic cleansing mean? Never heard about?
A: The ones who are fighting are not ALL Serbs against ALL non-Serbs:
a) more Serbs are not fighting than fighting
b) Serbs ("moderate") are also fighting against Serbs ("extreme")
c) there are many Serbs among civilian victims and refugees
d) there are deeds against Serbs and Serbian cultural and
historic "property" commited outside the war zones
e) there are many refugees in Serbia who are not Serbs
f) the same five statements can be applied to any of the
nationalities (substitute: Croats, Muslims)
Therefore, this war is a war of evil forces comanded by leaders
who try to justify their crimes by invoking rights of their nation and
satanic nature of all others. (Regardless of their nationality).
ANA:
>>devided and conquered by yet unrecognized
>>and undefined evil forces which do not deserve to be called by any nation's
>>name, since they are destroying and have destroyed indiscriminately
>>may indeed believe so). They are destroying lives of Serbian people in
>>Bosnia, Croatia and elswhere, as well in Serbia, as effectively as they
>>are doing it to other people. The other criminals who are not of
>>the Serbian origin are also very skillfully destroying people - Serbian
>>as well as other - but they pretend to have a moral advantage of a victim.
FARUK:
>Bla, bla, bla...
>There is a difference between thinking and .... As Amers say: do what you
>do best.
I hope you don't take this as another bla, bla bla. Because, I could just
repeat back to you what you said above (but I won't).
> With hopes for peace upon you.
> ___ ___
> ___ _/ \ / //
> \_/ @ \ / // _/////
> /|-\_ \/ // _/ _/
> | \ \__//__/ _/
> ()/ \ __ /
> / () \_ \____ |////<
> () \_ \_______\
> \______/
>>Ana M. Shane voice: (215)-843-2909
>>334 Winona St.
>>Philadelphia, PA 19144 e-mail: psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu
>Faruk.
Ana
Faruk od Bosne
Article 874 of soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna (Ana M. Shane) writes:
ANA:
>>All I want to say is that as people Yugoslav (or ex-YU) citizens have been
>>thrown against each others,
FARUK:
Everybody sees what you want to say. However the facts are different:
serbs fought Slovenians (Slovenians kick them out), serbs fought Croats
and stil fighting, serbs fight Bosnians Muslims and Croats, serbs oppress
Albanians in Kosovo, serbs are treatening Macedonians. On the other side
Slovenians only fought serbs (not Croats etc.), Croats only fought serbs
(not others, although serbs would like to see the fight between Croats and
Muslims in Bosnia - fat chance), Albanians from Kosovo are fighting only
serbs (not Croats or Muslims ...) etc. Therefore the conclusions of those
facts are that serbs are fighting non-serb peoples of ex-Yu, and no other
ex-Yu peoples have been thrown against each other.
So, may I thank but not thank you for your offer of peace.
Faruk.
Erland Sommarskog
>Anyway, Serbs by the definition were not a minority in SFRY, because
>they were constituent nation. Now, that situation has changed, and with
>one signature EEC has turned Serbs into minority in ex-Bosnia and
>ex-Croatia, but Serbs do not recongise it. And they will fight until
>there is a change in that decision.
Is that the only way Serbs know to change their situation? Start a
war and brutally kill people? Don't you guys know of any more
civilized ways?
>No, some rather near future will show the exact percentage of those
>supporting the right-wingers there. Descriptions of people watching
>with joy youngsters beating Turks are pointing in this direction.
Please do also include the manifestations *against* racism and
neo-nazism which have been held in Germany. Manifestations which
have attracted a large number of people.
>>How many attacks have Serbs committed against their Croats, Muslims,
>>Albanians and others this year?
>
>Against Albanians much less than Germans attacks on Turks. Far less.
Milan Stojannovic, you are a big fat liar. In Germany there is
small group of extremists guilty to these attacks. I read in
the paper that there 2200 deed recorded for 1992 with 900 persons
wounded and 17 killed, indeed a tragic number. But in Kosovo the
scheme is government-sponsored, and hardly a single Albanian is
untouched by the oppression. Of course, we can call it one single
attack if you like - but it's a goddamn big one.
It's sickening to see you trying to blackpaint the German people
because of a small number of extremists, when a far greater deal
of your own people is engaged in systematic killing, which you
even seem to justify.
What was spelt Germany (and Croatia) in WWII is very tragically
spelt Serbia in 1992.
--
Erland Sommarskog
>Let's be serious, what do you blame the B-H government. What mistakes
>did you believe it make?
Went on the road to independence when they knew it would lead
to bloodshed. At best this can be described as folliness.
Erland Sommarskog
>(not others, although serbs would like to see the fight between Croats and
>Muslims in Bosnia - fat chance),
Not only the chance is fat, the sad thing is that it has already
happened. Even worse is that we have had Croats fighting Croats.
>Albanians from Kosovo are fighting only serbs (not Croats or Muslims ...)
If things get messy in Macedonia, who do you think the Albanians
will fight?
>Therefore the conclusions of those facts are that serbs are fighting
>non-serb peoples of ex-Yu, and no other ex-Yu peoples have been thrown
>against each other.
A lie, a myth, a piece of propaganda, make your pick. Truth it ain't.
Faruk od Bosne
In article <1992Dec20.2...@enea.se>, som...@enea.se (Erland
If you were watching the pre-war situation closely, the Bosnian governement
had no choice. Serbo-negro gangs were looting BH towns, serbian generals
were black-mailing the population as well as the government, and it was a
full-blown war against Croatia primarily from the Bosnian soil. Serbs were
ordered to harass the government in any possible way. Kosovo was the prior
example of the serbian intent, where serbian police were killing and torturing
Albanians. Izetbegovic did everything to avoid the war. He cautiously
negotiated the way toward the independence with the EC and the UN, and
organized a referendum only after he got a guarantees that the new country
will be accepted to the SCSE and UN membership, what implied an active help
by other members in defending the Bosnian sovereignty. Besides the great
majority of people of Bosnia and Herzegovina approved the independence.
Between freedom and death Bosnians chose freedom. They all knew there is
no freedom without sacrifice. However they may be only disapointed by the
reaction of the free world, the world in which ideals they believe, and for
which ideals they are dieing. The only thing the Bosnians want is to live
in freedom as any other civilized nation.
Faruk.
Senad Arnautovic
>Senad Arnautovic (arns...@me.utoronto.ca) writes:
>>Let's be serious, what do you blame the B-H government. What mistakes
>>did you believe it make?
>Went on the road to independence when they knew it would lead
>to bloodshed. At best this can be described as folliness.
From today's perspective you may be right. However, an international
recognition and membership into the U.N. was supposed to defuse
the tension since the U.N. and the international community
was supposed to help its newly-admitted member against Serbian
aggression, especially when its government clearily asked for
the assistance. How did the West swallow a Sebian propaganda
that this is a civil war and therefore UN charter does not apply?
How come the B-H government is treated as one of the three
"warring fractions" when it represents proportionally
all three ethnic groups. The Bosnian Serbs and Croats are represented
in the B-H government by their moderate politicians, not extreme
ultra-nationalists who seek to join parts of B-H to their respective
proper neighbours.
>--
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
Senad H. Arnautovic
Faruk od Bosne
In article <1992Dec20....@enea.se>, som...@enea.se (Erland
No sir. What you refer to were single incidents, while the fight against
serbs is permanently going on. There is a plenty of evidence that those
wars are liberation wars against serbian oppression. Therefore, the Mace-
donian Albanians will fight for a simple freedom, when it comes.
|> --
|> Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
Faruk.
Ana M. Shane
>Faruk.
Wouldn't it have been less bloody if the Bosnian Government FIRST promoted
UNITY of all the Bosnia and Herzegovina people, decreasing separate
national interests and getting a more united population, BEFORE secession?
Wouldn't it have been wiser to wait at least until the situation with
Croatia had somehow been resolved and more stable? Even with being
dominated by the army?
There is an old story about a baby and two women who both claimed that
it was theirs. When they came with their dispute to king Solomon, he gave
them a choice to cut up the baby and each one take a half. The true
mother then said that the other woman can take the whole baby. Then
king Solomon knew who was the true mother.
Wouldn't the Bosnian government have been the true mother to the people
of Bosnia even if they accepted the alleged dominance of the leadership of
Serbia for a few more years, and in the mean time secured the more united
people within Bosnia, who wouldn't start killing each other?
Another point: the secession of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia&Herzegovina,
and Macedonia, have in fact strengthened the regime of Milosevic, and the war
has prolonged his and SPS's reign. Had the people of all of the republics
united against criminal leadership, today we could have had a democratic
country where no nation dominates, but all help each other in building up
economy and society. This way, each of the republics is much worse off,
much further from any democracy, prosperity, and just laws. Together,
we could have done something. Divided - we are all victims of the
same criminals who became rich sucking the last drops of the blood
of everybody.
I am here pointing to another possibility. I know that to many Bosnians
this will look like defending what the Serbian extremists have done.
I am not, they have already proven that they were not the "true mother
of the baby". The question is who is the "true mother" among the leaders
in this terrible war?
Ana M. Shane
>If you were watching the pre-war situation closely, the Bosnian governement
>had no choice. Serbo-negro gangs were looting BH towns, serbian generals
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do not forget that in this country (USA) as well as in Canada, the majority
of Muslims are African-Americans(Canadians).
Be angry as much as you wish, but don't be a racist!!
>Faruk.
With hopes for
__________ __________ _______ _________ __________
/ ___ / / _______/ / __ | / ____ / / _______/
/ / / / / / / / | | / / /_/ / /
/ /__/ / / /___ / /___| | / / / /___
/ ______/ / ___/ / _____ | / / / ___/
/ / / / / / | | / / __ / /
/ / / /_____ / / | | / /____/ / / /_____
/___/ /_________/ /___/ |_| /_________/ /_________/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ana M. Shane psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Victor Wickerhauser
>fa...@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
>>had no choice. Serbo-negro gangs were looting BH towns, serbian generals
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Do not forget that in this country (USA) as well as in Canada, the majority
>of Muslims are African-Americans(Canadians).
>
>Be angry as much as you wish, but don't be a racist!!
Maybe he meant to contract Serbia-Montenegro? Maybe you should mix a
little understanding with your peace?
Merry Christmas,
Victor
--
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser <vic...@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone: USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749; FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Faruk od Bosne
In article <Dec.24.00.18....@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
|>
|> >If you were watching the pre-war situation closely, the Bosnian
governement
|> >had no choice. Serbo-negro gangs were looting BH towns, serbian generals
|> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|> Do not forget that in this country (USA) as well as in Canada, the majority
|> of Muslims are African-Americans(Canadians).
|>
|> Be angry as much as you wish, but don't be a racist!!
That is your pattern: get away from the truth. Serbo-monte-negro gangs were
looting BH towns, ... Are you happier now.
|>
Faruk.
Faruk od Bosne
In article <Dec.24.00.18....@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
|>
|> >If you were watching the pre-war situation closely, the Bosnian
governement
|> >had no choice. Serbo-negro gangs were looting BH towns, serbian generals
|> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|> Do not forget that in this country (USA) as well as in Canada, the majority
|> of Muslims are African-Americans(Canadians).
|>
understand what I meant.
|> Be angry as much as you wish, but don't be a racist!!
You can't make me angry. I am rather sorry for you.
Faruk.
Erland Sommarskog
>I said:
>>Went on the road to independence when they knew it would lead
>>to bloodshed. At best this can be described as folliness.
>
>From today's perspective you may be right.
I am glad to see that you at least consider the possibility.
>However, an international recognition and membership into the U.N.
>was supposed to defuse the tension since the U.N. and the international
>community was supposed to help its newly-admitted member against Serbian
>aggression, especially when its government clearily asked for
>the assistance. How did the West swallow a Sebian propaganda
>that this is a civil war and therefore UN charter does not apply?
This "supposed to" is exactly part of the folliness. Or, did anyone
at any point in time say: "if you go independent, and the evil Serbs
jump on you, we will intervene, no problem"? Tell me, were there any
such promises?
If the B-H government entered the road to independence in the belief
that any so-call New World Order would protect them, they were com-
mitting a great sin towards its people. What was illustrated in Kuwait
is that you cannot attack a small country without taking the risk
for paying in blood and money. But that does not mean that the world
is prepared to come and save any small country who is playing dangerous
games with a neighbour - or seceding despite strong opposition from
an internal minority. If any world order would give such promises,
there would tens of small Bosnia-Hercegovina all around the world
crying for help pretty quick.
And yes, to some extent this is a civil war, you can never deny that.
--
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
Erland Sommarskog
>when it comes.
Against whom would they fight?
Personally I pray that they will not have to or want to fight against
anyone.
--
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
Erland Sommarskog
>Another point: the secession of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia&Herzegovina,
>and Macedonia, have in fact strengthened the regime of Milosevic, and the war
>has prolonged his and SPS's reign. Had the people of all of the republics
>united against criminal leadership, today we could have had a democratic
>country where no nation dominates, but all help each other in building up
>economy and society. This way, each of the republics is much worse off,
>much further from any democracy, prosperity, and just laws.
Here I have to object. Please describe in what ways you think Slovenia
if far away from any democracy and just laws. Yes, Slovenia is not as
prosperous as it used to be, but so is no Eastern European or ex-Soviet
country today. And Slovenia seems to be doing better than most of them.
--
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se