MEDIA FALSEHOODS ABOUT THE WAR IN FORMER YUGOSLAVIA DISCOVERED
dd chukurov
MEDIA FALSEHOODS ABOUT THE WAR IN FORMER YUGOSLAVIA DISCOVERED
Several of the daily newspapers reported the news that the German
journalist Thomas Deihmann, who was for four years reporting on the war
in Bosnia-Herzegovina, spoke out in the magazine "Novo" about many
examples of his western colleagues whose reports were full of
testimonies by false witnesses. For placing an anti-Serbian falsehood,
the American Roy Gutmann was even awarded the Pulitzer Price for
journalism. It is a question whether one belated confession can rectify
the effects of the previous premeditated actions, reflected in the
saying that a falsehood one hundred times repeated becomes the truth.
At many gatherings where they were exchanging experiences, foreign
journalists many times were pointing out that because of their strives
to come up with a sensation and because of the complex approach to the
complicated problem of the Yugoslav crisis, their conscience completely
gave up. There were also admissions that they were often working at the
orders of some other factors.
Thus the winner of the Pulitzer Price launched the news about the
prison camp in Omarska long before he visited it, and he supported the
entire story with testimonies of a man who himself did not see the
crimes about which he was bearing witness.
Not one from the 350 reporters who have tried to check on the
Gutmann's news could find any proof for the statements contained in his
report, says Deihmann, qualifying such journalistic behavior as
unacceptable and irresponsible. He explains: "Already in autumn of the
year 1994 I could prove that Gutmann engaged the employee of the Croat
Ministry of Information, Miss Jadranka Cigelj, who was giving false
testimony to him and to the other reporters about the alleged raping of
Muslim women in Omarska".
Once so launched false information made their deep mark on the
minds of people and caused a planned effect, while the real truth only
at times and always too late would reach the mind.
About how the American public relations agency Rudder and Finn
created the propaganda activities in favor of Croatia and Muslims, its
director James Harf says the following: "We were working eighteen months
with some breaks, for Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and the parliamentary
opposition in Kosovo. We won because we were aiming at the Jewish public
opinion. The press immediately changed its vocabulary and started using
the terms with strong emotional impact, such as the ethnic cleansing and
concentration camps which started to resemble the Nazi Germany and the
gas chambers at Auschwitz. The emotional charge was so strong that no
one could resist it. It is not our job to check the information, but to
speed up the flow of those which are favorable for us and to direct them
at carefully selected targets".
Further to the individuals motivated by professional reasons, the
war area attracted also those with different intentions. Those latter
ones were more numerous and the media image of the local developments
lost every connection with reality. Whose fault is this and are only the
reporters the guilty ones? According to their own admission, all the
blame can not be placed only on their shoulders because they are only
one ring in the chain. The reports from the front lines, according to
them, had to please both editors and consumers, and not at all the
interests of the economic elite could be neglected and those of the
international organizations, governmental structures and paid lobbyists.
With all the reporters' troubles and aggressiveness of competitive
firms, one had to respect also an in advance prescribed scenario, in
which the roles of victims and aggressors were strictly divided: the
former for the Croat and the Muslims side, and the latter for the
Serbian one.
Only an admission for many uttered falsehoods can be but a small
consolation for those who thanks to the faults of others, found
themselves on the pillar of shame. But the much more important question
remains, however, whether those bestowing justice will take the truth as
the guideline in determining the penalty for the real culprits for
crimes committed in former Yugoslavia. (Borba, January 27, 1997)
Boris Petrov
Gesellschaft fuer bedrohte Voelker
Society for Threatened Peoples
NGO in consultative status (category II) with the
Economic and
Social Council (ECOSOC) of the United Nations
P.O. Box 20 24
D - 37010 Gttingen
Phone: +49/551/49906-0
Fax: +49/551/58028
E-mail: GfbV-G...@OLN.COMLINK.APC.ORG
homepage: http://www.gwdg.de/~mfritz/gfbv.htm
Translation: Owen Beith
Press Release
Goettingen, 20 January 1997
Gesellschaft fuer bedrohte Voelker issues warning
about Serbian opposition leader - Zoran Dzindzic bears
share of responsibility for war crimes in Bosnia.
Gesellschaft fuer bedrohte Voelker (GfbV) has warned the
GermanFederal Government against cooperating too
closely with Serbian opposition leader Zoran
Dzindzic. "Dzindzic bears his share of
responsibility for the war crimes committed in
Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the past, like the anted
war criminal Serb leader Radovan Karadzic, he
advocated the cause of a 'Greater Serbia'", declared
GfbV national chairperson Tilman Zuelch, speaking in
Goettingen on Monday.
What is important now is to support those opposition
groups in Belgrade who have a serious commitment to
democracy, like the student movement and the
Helsinki Committee, instead of concentrating on one
suspect politician. Zuelch likewise urged the
German media not to treat Dzindzic, with his
excellent command of German, as the chief spokesman
for the opposition.
During the course of his meeting with Foreign
Minister Klaus Kinkel in Bonn on Sunday Dzindzic
stressed that "a good relationship between Belgrade
and the 'Serb Republic' in Bosnia" was "conducive to
stability". Coming from a man who has openly
advocated the annexation of the so-called "Serb
sector" and hence the destruction of Bosnia-
Herzegovina as a single entity these words should
make the Federal Government stop and take notice,
said Zuelch.
The programme of Dzindzic's 'Democratic Party',
which has remained unaltered since it was drawn up
in 1993, clearly demonstrates his ideological
proximity to Karadzic. In it Dzindzic issues a
nationalistic call for the "Union of all Serbs
within a single State", recommends a government-
organised birth control programme for the Albanian
opulation of Serbian-controlled Kosovo and calls for
the estoration of the monarchy in the new Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia.
During the war in Bosnia Dzindizic showed his true
character. In February 1994 he went skiing on Mount
Jahorina, arranging to have the slopes floodlit.
Zuelch pointed out that Sarajevo was under artillery
bombardment from Mount Jahorina. A week before
Dzindzic's arrival 68 people were killed in the
lower part of Sarajevo by a Serbian artillery shell.
During the first NATO ultimatum to the Bosnian Serbs
Dzindzic travelled to Pale "to express his
solidarity with the people of the Bosnian Serb
Republic". By his own account he engaged in
intensive discussions with Radovan Karadzic lasting
eight hours. By the beginning of 1992 Dzindzic had
already aligned himself with the emerging Serbian
Nationalist movement and he remained openly
committed to Karadzic's SDS Party until September
1996.
## CrossPoint v3.02 ##
Ivo Skoric ***** isk...@igc.apc.org
PO Box 46, NYC NY 10029, USA
http://www.peacenet.org/balkans/
ivo.html
Boris Petrov
Srpska oporba
Jucer sam vecinu dana proveo analizirajuci materijale pages
srpske oporbe. Mozda vas mogu zanimati neki kljucni zakljucci.
Dakle, osnovnu filozofiju cijele oporbe Zoran Djindjic je sveo
na jednu recenicu u intervjuu koji je dao austrijskoj televiziji
3.12. Na pitanje kako objasnjava cinjenicu da se ni on ni
Draskovic nisu suprostavili ratovima u Hrvatskoj i Bosni,
on je odgovorio:"Milosevic koristi fizicku silu na bezobziran
nacin. CILJEVI NISU RAZLICITI VEC METODE". U masi
dokumenata koje sam procitao nema ni rijeci osude
agresije i genocida u Hrvatskoj i/ili Bosni. Draskovic samo
obecava kako ce radosno isporuciti Milosevica i druge u
Hag, te kako ce "sve izbjeglice vratiti u Knin i Bosnu".
Dakle, nikakve razlike u "vanjskoj politici" nema. Treba,
dakako, kazati da je Vesna Pesic iznimka u vodstvu.
Prava dama koja se od pocetka suprostavljala ratu i
genocidu, ali je njena uloga uglavnom dekorativna.
Sto se sansi na uspjeh oporbe tice, ja sam prilicno
siguran kako je to malo vjerojatno naprosto zbog toga
sto Milosevic zna da ga ceka ili sudbina Causeskua
ili "isporuka" u Hag. Dakle, na kraju on mora primjeniti
silu, a tada se tesko moze predvidjeti razvoj dogadjaja.
Demonstaracije ipak imaju za Srbiju veliki znacaj jer je
u ocima zapadnog svijeta prikazuju kao potencijalno
demokratsku zemlju, sto je, nama je jasno, malo
vjerojatno, ali to Zapadu nije jasno. Oporba je dobila
podrsku velikog dijela srpske dijaspore. Podrzao ju je
pismom princ Aleksandar (koji ima ambicije da u
slucaju kaosa sebe ponudi, uz Britansku politicku igru,
kao soluciju), guverner Ohio state George Voinovic, te
niz Amerikanaca i Francuza srpskog podrijetla. Patrijarh
Pavle zasad nije izrazio misljenje, niti je primio
predstavnike oporbe. Sto se Draskovica i Djindjica tice
sve je manje vise jasno. Draskovic je prvi govorio o
"pravu srpskih mrtvih da glasaju" o granicama i prvi je
sirio antihrvatsku histeriju s knjigama Noz, Molitva i
Molitva II. Njegova je vizija cetnicka Srbija, vjerojatno s
kraljem na celu. On nema djece i pravi je fanatik. Takva
mu je i zena Danica. Posto ih je Milosevic hapsio i
prebijao on bi ga svakako poslao u Hag. Djindjic je
pravi oportunist, neka verzija novog, liberalnijeg
Milosevica. Doktorirao je kod Habermasa (jedan od
pametnijih marksista), prevodio je ruske anarhiste i
pripadao je njemackim ljevicarskim, anarhistickim
krugovima. Rodjen je u Bosanskom Samcu (gdje i
Izetbegovic, mislim??) i podrzavao je bosansku politiku
Seselja i Karadzica. Njemu je cilj osvajanje vlasti. Bio
je ozenjen s Hrvaticom Dunjom Melcic, takodjer
ljevicarkom koja zivi u Njemackoj, ali koja je tijekom
rata humanitarno pomagala izbjeglice u Hrvatskoj i Bosni.
(Moja napomena: Draskovic je ordinarni i vrlo pokvareni,
cetnik. U jednoj svojoj knjizi ovako je huljski "prepricao"
jedan uzasan zlocin nad Hrvatom - katolickim
svecenikom u Bosni. Nesretnik je bio u 2. svj. ratu ziv
uhvacen, (o)gulile su mu zivom cetnicke zivotinje dobar
dio koze, jahali na njemu kao na svinji za klanje i onda
"lagano" przili na vatri dok nije izdahnuo. Draskovic je
TOCNO znao za taj zlocin jer je upotrebio ime i prezime
mucenog svecenika i u svojoj knjizi od zrtve napravio
mucitelja - lik sa tim imenom i prezimenom, katolicki
svecenik, u knjizi ISTIM metodama muci nekog srpskog
seljaka. TO je dakle lik (huljski, krajnje nemoralan) Vuk
Draskovica, cetnicka zivotinja koja mora pod zemlju a
ne postati "demokratska" zamjena za zlocinca
Milosevica. Boris Petrovcic)
Boris Petrov
LA TIMES
Friday,
January 31, 1997
Cut Aid to Bosnia Town, Activists Urge
By NORMAN KEMPSTER, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON--International donors have pumped
more than $3 million in reconstruction aid into a
Bosnian Serb town run by a rogues' gallery of
suspected war criminals, conferring a semblance of
respectability on town leaders and undercutting
investigations by the U.N. war crimes tribunal, a
watchdog group says.
In a 70-page report, Human Rights Watch says
the mayor, deputy mayor, police chief, hospital
director and director of a local organization
claiming to be the Red Cross were all deeply
implicated in "ethnic cleansing" in Prijedor, a
town in northwestern Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Although no one of the five has been indicted
for war crimes, most are under investigation by
the tribunal and all have been cited in United
Nations reports on wartime atrocities. The
report says the municipal officials "got away with
their crimes and became rich men in the process,
having expropriated businesses, homes and other
assets of the non-Serbs of the community, estimated
to be worth several billion" German marks.
"The architects of ethnic cleansing . . .interact
daily with representatives of international
organizations," the report says. "This contact
grants them a wholly undeserved legitimacy,
given that they achieved their positions by
'disappearing' the duly elected mayor of the town,
Muhamed Cehajic, believed killed on July 26,
1992, and thousands of other [non-Serbian] community
leaders and citizens."
Human Rights Watch has called on international
organizations, especially aid groups, to break off
contact with Prijedor officials and end assistance
programs unless there is a guarantee that none of the
money will find its way into the pockets of the
town leaders, a condition that the report says is
unlikely to be met.
"The international community has squandered
much of the leverage available to enforce compliance
with the Dayton [Ohio] peace agreement, especially
by lifting sanctions against Republika Srpska [the
Bosnian Serb entity]," the report says. "Therefore,
the strategic use of reconstruction aid in ensuring
compliance has become all the more important."
The report says millions of dollars in aid have been
invested in Prijedor since the signing of the Dayton
accord. Much of the money was skimmed by town
authorities through methods such as direct pressure on
aid-givers to do business with companies controlled
by the municipal leaders, according to Human Rights
Watch. Although no precise figures are contained in
the report, sources said that aid spending in Prijedor
has totaled at least $3 million.
Acknowledging that the war crimes tribunal has not
charged any of the leaders, Human Rights Watch says:
"While it is important to presume innocence in a legal
sense, neither indictment nor conviction [is] required .
. . to exercise good judgment in distribution of
reconstruction aid. . . . There is no requirement in
the meantime that aid agencies do business with
persons under suspicion of war crimes."
The report contains detailed profiles of the town
leaders, outlining the evidence of their
participation in atrocities:
* Milomir Stakic, the mayor, was accused by
the U.N. Commission of Experts on Bosnian war crimes
of direct involvement in establishment of concentration
camps near the town. He resigned in 1993 but was
reinstated by Radovan Karadzic, then president
of the Bosnian Serbs and now under indictment for
war crimes.
* Momcilo Radanovic, the deputy mayor, was
accused by the U.N. commission of leading a brigade that
committed numerous massacres and was heavily involved
in extortion of money from non-Serbian civilians.
* Srdjo Srdic, president of a group that
calls itself the Red Cross, although it has no sanction
from other Red Cross organizations, was accused by
the U.N. commission of being "personally responsible
for plunder and physical and psychological terror. . . .
He made the false pretense that the Red Cross was helping
prisoners in the concentration camps. He has also been
accused of having organized ethnic cleansing by using
Red Cross vehicles."
* Milan Kovacevic, director of the Prijedor
hospital, has been accused of organizing the shipment of
non-Serbs to concentration camps.
* Ranko Mijic, the acting police chief,
has been accused by former prisoners of being chief
interrogator for all concentration camps in the Prijedor
area.
Paul Andrej Jurcic
>Draskovic je prvi govorio o pravu srpskih mrtvih da glasaju" o granicama i
>prvi je sirio antihrvatsku histeriju s knjigama Noz, Molitva i Molitva II.
>Njegova je vizija cetnicka Srbija, vjerojatno s kraljem na celu. On nema djece
>i pravi je fanatik. Takva mu je i zena Danica. Posto ih je Milosevic hapsio i
>prebijao on bi ga svakako poslao u Hag.
>
Milosevic nemoze biti izrucen sudu za ratne zlocince u Hagu jer protiv njega
nije ni podignuta optuznica. Osim toga treba imati na umu da on suvise toga zna
sto bi bilo vrlo nezgodno za neke zapadne politicare. Ukoliko Milosevic izgubi
vlast i postane nezasticen i osjetljiv onda ce mu se dogoditi "nezgoda",
prometna nesreca, pad sa balkona ili tako nesto slicno.
Paul
Barry S. Marjanovich
On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, dd chukurov (The SERVant) wrote:
> MEDIA FALSEHOODS ABOUT THE WAR IN FORMER YUGOSLAVIA DISCOVERED
>
How The Satan Of Servia Started It All
DATE=2/9/96
TYPE=CLOSEUP
NUMBER=4-08898
TITLE='YUGOSLAVIA: DEATH OF A NATION'
BYLINE=PAMELA TAYLOR
TELEPHONE=619-1101
DATELINE=WASHINGTON
EDITOR=PHIL HAYNES
INTRO: ONE OF THE MORE IMPORTANT BOOKS ABOUT THE DISINTEGRATION
OF THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA WAS JUST RELEASED IN
CONJUNCTION WITH THE WIDELY ACCLAIMED TELEVISION
DOCUMENTARY 'THE DEATH OF YUGOSLAVIA'. THE BOOK, WRITTEN
BY JOURNALISTS LAURA SILBER OF LONDON'S FINANCIAL TIMES
AND ALLAN LITTLE OF THE BBC, IS TITLED 'YUGOSLAVIA:
DEATH OF A NATION'. IT WAS PUBLISHED BY T-V BOOKS IN NEW
YORK. VOA'S PAMELA TAYLOR TALKED WITH LAURA SILBER ABOUT
THE BOOK CRITICS ARE CALLING A DAMNING PORTRAIT OF MEN
WHO FANNED THE FLAMES OF NATIONALISM AND WAR OUT OF A
REALIZATION THEY COULD NOT STAY IN POWER A FREE-MARKET
DEMOCRACY.
PT: LAURA, AS YOU KNOW A LOT OF REVIEWERS HAVE PRAISED THIS
BOOK AND SAID THAT NOT ONLY DOES IT -- AND THE TV
DOCUMENTARY --PROVIDE A UNIQUE AND DAMNING HISTORY OF
HOW THIS TERRIBLE WAR GOT STARTED, BUT YOUR BOOK SHOWS
HOW SERBIAN PRESIDENT SERBIAN PRESIDENT SLOBODAN
MILOSEVIC WAS THE PRIME MOVER. AS IN THE TV
DOCUMENTARY, YOU MANAGED TO DO THIS BY USING THE WORDS
OF SERB LEADERS THEMSELVES. WHICH INTERVIEWS SURPRISED
YOU THE MOST BY WHAT THE PERSON YOUR WERE TALKING TO
INADVERTENTLY REVEALED?
LS: WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT WAS BORISAV
JOVIC [YOH-VITCH], ONE OF MILOSEVIC'S CLOSEST AIDES
SINCE HIS RISE TO POWER. I'M NOT SURE HE INADVERTENTLY
REVEALED IT, I THINK HE DECIDED TO REVEAL IT BECAUSE HE
SENSED MILOSEVIC WAS GOING TO TURN HIS BACK ON HIM.
TIME AND TIME AGAIN WE CONDUCTED FROM 15 TO 16 HOURS OF
OFF THE RECORD INTERVIEWS WITH BORISAV JOVIC AND THEN
FILMED HIM AS WELL LATER ON. AND IT WAS AMAZING TO SEE
JUST HOW MUCH HE WAS WILLING TO TALK ABOUT, HOW MUCH IT
WAS 'WELL, MILOSEVIC AND I DID THIS AND SLOBO AND I DID
THAT' AND THERE WERE TIMES HE REALLY GAVE US REAL
INSIGHT INTO HOW DECISIONS WERE MADE AND WHAT STEPS THE
DECIDED TO TAKE AT A CERTAIN POINT. EVEN BEFORE THE
WAR, THE DECISION TO WAGE WAR. HE REALLY GAVE US THE
MOST INSIGHT OF ANYONE WE TALKED TO.
PT: AND SPECIFICALLY HE SAID SOMETHING I CERTAINLY HADN'T
HEARD SPELLED OUT SO CONCRETELY BEFORE, AND THAT IS WHEN
HE SAID A DECISION WAS TAKEN IN BELGRADE TO ARM THE
BOSNIAN SERBS AND THE SERBS IN KRAJINA?
LS: I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS THE SERBIAN REGIME DOESN'T
LIKE THIS DOCUMENTARY PARTICULARLY IS IT REMINDS THEM
WHAT HAPPENED 5 YEARS AGO, 6 YEARS AGO AND RIGHT NOW ALL
THE REGIMES IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA ARE LOOKING FOR A
CASE OF COLLECTIVE AMNESIA. AND SO WHAT HAPPENED IN
THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE IS THAT JOVIC IS TELLING US,
'WELL WE MADE THIS DECISION. WE MADE THE DECISION TO
HAVE REALLY WHAT AMOUNTED TO A PHONY PULLOUT OF THE
YUGOSLAV ARMY IN APRIL 1992, MAY 1992, AFTER THE WAR HAD
ALREADY STARTED IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA.' WHAT THEY
DID WAS TRANSFER ALL THE SERB ARMY OFFICERS WHO WERE
NATIVES OF BOSNIA BACK TO BOSNIA AND ALONG WITH THEIR
EQUIPMENT. SO WHEN THE YUGOSLAV ARMY PULLED OUT IN MAY
1992, THEY LEFT AN ARMY THERE READY TO WAGE WAR.
PT: YOU ALSO SAID SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT YOU CALLED 'THE
RADIANT GLARE OF NATIONALISM BEING MORE ATTRACTIVE TO
ORDINARY SERBS THAN THE PROMISE OF AN IMPROVED ECONOMY,
NEW CARS, FOREIGN TRAVEL ETC. TELL US ABOUT THAT.
LS: AT THAT TIME YUGOSLAVIA HAD SORT OF A BURST OF
PROSPERITY AND THERE WERE A LOT OF EXPORTED GOODS IN
YUGOSLAVIA. THERE WAS REALLY A SENSE THAT MAYBE ECONOMIC
CRISES COULD BE PUT BEHIND THEM. YUGOSLAVIA SEEMED AT
THAT POINT VERY WELL POSITIONED TO MAKE THE TRANSITION
IN EUROPE. SO WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT PRESIDENT
MILOSEVIC WAS STIRRING UP NATIONALISM, HE GAVE THEM AN
ALTERNATIVE. HE SAID TO THEM, 'WELL, THIS WAS ALL
SURPRESSED FOR SO LONG AND NOW YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO
SAY YOU ARE SERBS AGAIN'. AND THAT'S WHAT THESE PEOPLE
FELT WAS SURPRESSED. MILOSEVIC DIDN'T CREATE THE
NATIONALIST SENTIMENTS. THEY WERE THERE BUT HAD NEVER
BEEN DIFUSED OR DEALT WITH UNDER TITO'S COMMUNIST
REGIME. SO MILOSEVIC WAS JUST MANIPULATING THEM AND
IGNIGHTING FEARS AND SAYING 'IF YOU MAKE THIS CHOICE AND
SACRIFICE EVERYTHING YOU WILL HAVE NATIONAL DIGNITY'.
NEB/PAM/PCH
09-Feb-96 4:04 PM EST (2104 UTC)
NNNN
Source: Voice of America
.
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Y Rapido
Paul Andrej Jurcic wrote:
> Milosevic nemoze biti izrucen sudu za ratne zlocince u Hagu jer protiv njega
> nije ni podignuta optuznica. Osim toga treba imati na umu da on suvise toga zna
> sto bi bilo vrlo nezgodno za neke zapadne politicare. Ukoliko Milosevic izgubi
> vlast i postane nezasticen i osjetljiv onda ce mu se dogoditi "nezgoda",
> prometna nesreca, pad sa balkona ili tako nesto slicno.
>
> Paul
rap: Miloseviceva osnovna globalna osnovica je u Komunistickoj
Internacionali,
koja se takodjer naziva ("da se Vlasi ne dosjete") i Socijalisticka
Internacionala. Njegova zena Mirjana, je oficijelno lider te
ekspoziture u
Srbiji. Predsjednik Socijalisticke Internacionale bio je, npr. i
Boutros Boutros Ghali. Kao takav, Milosevic je favorit Washingtona,
jer Washington podrzava Socijalisticku Internacionalu, kao sto je
podrzavaju i Ujedinjene Nacije (organizam globalisticke Kabale).
Srpski Rojalisti (Cetnici) bili su 1990-tih godina samo pod-grupa,
odn. instrument u rukama Milosevica, a nikada u posjedu stvarne
vlasti. Oni su bili zaduzeni da kolju, siluju, pljackaju, itd. Ta
vrsta rabote. Medjutim, kako se u globalnim okvirima, pogtovo
sa tocke gledanja Washingtona, Srpski Rojalisti smatraju ideoloskom
bracom Ruskih Rojalista (Carista), to su oni TOTALNO nepozeljni
za Socijalisticku Internacionalu (kojom rukovode Rockefeller, preko,
strategije Zbignjeva Brzezinskog u SAD -- i Rotschild, preko
strategije vec "odlazeceg" Kissingera, kao Britanskog agenta).
Oba ova stratega ne dozvoljavaju Rojalistima da dodju na vlast
u Srbiji, a pogotovo ne u Rusiji.
REIN888
Hello! I wanted to share something very important.
You know each of us only has one life to live.
We need to make decisions now that will determine our future.
The God of heaven sent his only Son to this earth
to let us have a way to be right with God,
have God's help in this life and one day be in heaven
with God. There in heaven is peace, rest, love and joy.
We definitely don't want to go to the other place called hell.
In hell, there is darkness, thirst, torment and weeping and
gnashing of teeth. So how can we enjoy God's blessing now
and be in heaven? Simple, receive Jesus Christ as Savior.
It says that if we will confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus
and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead
we will be saved. We can simply pray: Heavenly Father,
forgive me of my sins and I now confess Jesus Christ
as the Lord of my life and I believe in my heart
(with everything in me) that you raised Jesus Christ
from the dead. The Word of God (the Bible) says that you
are now saved! You are now a child of God, transferred
from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light!
Jesus is now your Good Shepherd, taking care of you and
helping you!
Thanks for reading and choosing life. Hope to hear from you soon!
Paul Andrej Jurcic
Rapido wrote:
>Predsjednik Socijalisticke Internacionale bio je, npr. i
>Boutros Boutros Ghali. Kao takav, Milosevic je favorit Washingtona,
>jer Washington podrzava Socijalisticku Internacionalu, kao sto je
>podrzavaju i Ujedinjene Nacije (organizam globalisticke Kabale).
Zasto je onda Whasinghton radio svim silama (i uspio!) da se Butros B Ghali
ponovno ne izabete za glaqvnog tajnika UN i da li je novi tajnik takodjer u toj
Internacionali???
Paul
Nikola A. Olic
Please conserve bandwidth and keep you divine imaginations to yourself.
Thank you.
Nikola Olic
Mirko Stanojevic
Gospodine Borise Petrovcicu,
Vase ime i prezime nedvosmisleno ukazuje na Vase srpsko podrijetlo, jer
kako kaze stara izreka: "Poturica gori od Turcina". S`tim u vezi ja znam
da Vas u zivotu odrzava jedino mrznja prema nama Srbima, pa Vam zato
preporucujem da malo bolje i objektivnije sagledate literaturu gospodina
Vuka Draskovica, sto ce Vas, nadam se, produhoviti i samim tim ce te
svoj stav promeniti.
Mislim da je krajnje vreme da zaboravimo II svetski rat i Jasenovac i da
ako vec ne mozemo da se volimo, onda barem da gajimo dobro susedske
odnose, pa prema tome nemorate da se bojite da cemo da dirnemo ni pedalj
Vase otadzbine.
Pozdrav iz demokratskog Beograda.
Boris Petrov
GLOBUS, 31. sijecnja 1997.
TANJA TORBARINA : KAMIKAZE
Gore od toga da Djapic ne misli svojom glavom je to da svojom
glavom misli.
Paraga, koji dobro poznaje Djapica, ovih je dana napisao da je
Djapic sam za sebe govorio da se sam sebi gadi koliko je
pokvaren. Gadio se ne gadio, on je Paragi oteo stranku. I sad
okolo daje puno intervjua o tom da zene nemaju pravo odlucivati
hoce li roditi ili ne. Zato Paraga pise da to ustvari Djapic iznosi
zahtjeve desne struje Hadezea, od Suska do Seksa protiv
pobacaja. Pa da onda oni tako vide bi li se zabrana isplatila
Hadezeu na izborima. Te Paraga pita da ko je taj Djapic pa da
zenama nesto naredjuje, on koji je do 40. godine napravio sam
jedno dijete, a stanuje u troiposobnom stanu koji mu je dao
Hadeze, vozi Beemve od 100 000 maraka i ima placu od 2 500
maraka. Te ga naziva licemjerom i prostakom. Medjutim, to je
jedan fini muskarac. koji cim vidi neku zenu, iz hlaca izvadi
nesto kruto. To je jedna figurica. Te Djapic izvlaceci figuricu
pita: ima li izmedju mene i fetusa ikakve razlike. Uvjeren je da
nema. Te se odma postavlja pitanje ko je onda taj koji Djapica
nosi u sebi. Susak nije. Odma se vidi da je mrsav. Mogo bi bit
Seks. Ima fino zaobljen trbuh koji mu sve vise raste. Trudnoca
mu je fino uznapredovala. Pregledom bi se moglo ustanovit
hoce i stvarno rodit Djapica. Bit ce problema oko izlaska
povelike glave. I to je zato jer Seks, dok nosi Djapica, jede
zdravo i obilato. Kao i svaka brizna majka. Jer zna da ako se
njemu sta dogodi, automatski ce nagrabusit i Djapic. Kad
jednog dana Djapic u Seksu dosegne razvoj kao da ga nosi
devet mjeseci morat ce se razdvojiti. Tako ce Djapic, cim Seks
odluci da ga rodi, ipak morat pocet mislit svojom glavom. Sto bi
moglo biti jos gore. Zato do razdvajanja ne smije naglo doci.
Neka ga Seks nastavi hraniti. Jer najzdravije je majcino mlijeko.
Hadeze nije bez veze pruzio sve uvjete ne bi li se Djapic jednog
dana razvio u oformljenog covjeka. Jos nista nije ucinjeno da
mu se glava barem malo proporcionalno smanji u odnosu na trup
i noge. Zato mu nije odma trebalo dati velik auto ko Beemve.
Nego su mu trebali da ti peglicu. da mu malo stisne glavu. Mali
volan takodjer je pogodan da mu prsit na rukama ne postanu jos
duzi. A auto niskog krova takodjer je dobar. Jer se onda Djapic
mora prignut i nslonit bradu na volan. Tako da mu se usta
automatski ne otvaraju uvijek kad naporno misli.
Lijepo je sto se Hadeze vec pobrinuo da Djapic vec stanuje u
trosobnom stanu. Za njega bi bilo strsno da spava s vlastitom
zenom kad ga Seks donese iz rodilista. Jer je protiv svake
kontracepcije. Te posebna soba treba da Djapiceva zena ne bi
napastovala Djapica. Uostalom, najsigurnija kontracepcija je kad
je izmedju zene i muskarca zid. Na Djapicu se odma vidi da mu
na pamet ne pada da u trenutku strasti probija zid onim sto mu
nikad ne bi moglo promijeniti osobine borera. Izvrstan oblik
kontracepcije je i svrdlanje zida.
Za sve treba vremena. Djapic i sa 40 godina i sam primjecuje
da nema osobine oformljena covjeka. No treba imati strpljnja.
Za 100 do 200 godina mozda od njega postane covjek. S druge
pak strane pogledajmo Nevenku Tudjman. Svi su mislili da ona
ima neke protekcije. Ali kako vrijeme prolazi, na vidjelo izlazi
prava istina. Nije tocno da je ona preko veze iznajmila vojnicki
prostor za svoj Netel. Nego je ona, kako je rekla: prolazeci
Zvonimirovom ulicom cula i vidjela da duze vrijeme stoji prazan
prostor i od Ministarstva obrane dobila pozitivan odgovor. To je
izjavila na sudu. jer je tuzila one koji su napisali da to,
vjerojatno, nije bilo tako. Zasto se zeni ne bi vjerovalo. Nije
znala sto ce sa sobom. Vrludala je besposleno zagrebackim
ulicama. I zasto da stalno bude na cesti kad je imala ideju kako
se skrasiti. Ima masu zena koje bez veze idu okolo. I to
tramvajem ili autom. Umjesto da pjesace ko Nevenka. Vide
razlicite prazne poslovne prostore po gradu. One kraj tih prostora
prodju mrtve ladne. Onda su besposlene. I onda padnu drzavi
na grbacu. I traze socijalnu pomoc. Neke dobiju i po tristo kuna
mjesecno. Umjesto da, cim spauze neki prazni prostor od vojske,
odma da napisu molbu. Vojska bi im to isti cas iznajmila. Ako je
vojska prostor dala Seki koja nema nikakve veze i protekcije
u ovoj zemlji, zasto ne bi dala i nekoj drugoj bilo kojoj zeni. Sad
je seka izasla iz tog prostora jer joj se Netel nije isplatio. A niti
jedna zena u Zagrebu jos nije poslala molbu za unajmljivanje.
Evo sto su Hrvatice. Bauljaju besposlene, a riskirat ko Seka
nece.
A druge pak strane sad je izaslo na vidjelo u kakvim teskim
uvjetima seka zivi. Jer kaze: pretrpjela sam dusevne boli i u
kontaktu s obitelji, jer zivim s roditeljima i djecom, a komentiranje
tekstova u novinama uobicajeno je u kuci. Da Seka ima svoj
stan, bilo bi drukcije. Taman se nakon posla dodje doma odmoriti,
a onda joj djeca skacu po glavi. I umjesto da se Dejan igra po
bankama, on joj prica sto je procitao u novinama. Onda je to
slomije. A i sekini roditelji su vec u godinama. Oni tupe i tupe.
Oba joj roditelja penzionera. Nemaju sto drugo raditi nego se
dokopaju novina pa citaju i komentiraju povazdan. Doduse,
dobro je da baka i djed pricuvaju Seki djecu dok baulja po
Zagrebu. I trazi pjeske poslovne prostore. Ali kao sto vidimo, to
ipak ima cijenu. Postavlja se pitanje koje su Sekine granice
izdrzljivosti. Kad ce konacno skupiti nesto love pa da ode
barem u podstanare. Eto, kao sto vidimo, svi smo mislili da je
Seki lako. A dosta je bilo pricekati da tuzi novine koje su o njoj
pisale pa da na vidjelo pred sudom isplivaju sve traume
zaposlene zene bez sigurnog zaposlenja i stana. S roditeljima
i djecom na vratu.
Dobro da u skromnoj kuci Tudjmanovoj vlada sklad i
razumjevanje. Izmedju tri generacije. Medjutim, pogledajmo
odnos Stipe Mesica i Josipa Manolica. Bili su ko otac i sin.
Bilo je pitanje dana kad ce to Manolic priznat i na sudu. Onda
su njih dva cak ostavili Hadeze. Onda su svasta rekli o nasem
predsjedniku. Onda se Josip Manolic jedno jutro probudio i pitao
se bi li vise volio da mu je predsjednik drzave Franjo Tudjman ili
Stipe Mesic. Shvativsi da u slucaju da je Mesic predsjednik vjesti
ne bi glasile gdje je predsjednik bio nego gdje je pio, Manolic
se uznemirio. I unervozio. i nije mogo Mesica zamislit s
predsjednickom lentom. Onda je Mesic neposlusnog oca koji
mu vise ne vjeruje htio smjestit u dom. Ali mu je Manolic umakao.
Onda je Manolicu preporucio da ode na vjecni pocinak rijecima:
Ajde, ajde, na Mirogoj, pjevas za mirogojske malisane. I sad,
ovu subotu Mesic je sazvao sabor svoje i Manoliceve stranke
oko koje se parnice cija je. Unajmio je vise desetaka
uniformiranih cuvara. U slucaju da na skup bane Manolic. I
nagovori svih da pristupe Hadezeu. Iz ovog se vidi koliko
penzioneri znaju biti opasni. Kad se otrgnu iz ruku mladima. To
su kamikaze. U Japanu su kamikaze bili piloti samoubojice
koji su se sa zrakoplovom obrusavali na ciljeve. Od 2500
napada 474 je pogodilo cilj. Zato starije treba drzati pod
kontrolom. nema penzionera koji kad primi racun za
struju ne bi sjeo u avijon i strmoglavio se na Elektru. Ako se
Manolic domogne avijona sto posto ce se obrusit na Mesica.
Nesto penzionera kamikaza kojima vise nije do zivota s obzirom
kolike su im penzije angazirat ce stranka na vlasti. Za akciju ce
ih nagaraditi bespalatnim grobnim mjestom i protekcijom u
posmrtnoj pripomoci. Kamikaze cu imat zadatak nadgledat u
kom pravcu iz Hadezea brise clanstvo u vecim grupama. U tom
slucaju strmoglavljivat ce se avijonom na grupu prije nego se
grupa domogne druge stranke. Ovako se s nekoliko hiljada
kamikaza penzionera moze natjerati strah u kosti clanovima
Hadezea. tako da vise u grupama nece napustati stranku. Nego
ce zakamuflirani s granjem, liscem i cvijecem u kosi puzati prema
drugim strankama jedan po jedan.
Zasad je sreca da malo koji penzioner ima avijon. Ali stvari se
drasticno mijenjaju. Za bilo kakve aute u Hrvatskoj se palaca
porez. Ali ako ko kupi avijon ili helikopter, uopce nema carine.
Te se moze dogodit da razni tipovi rasprodaju krntije i kupe avijon.
I cim im nesto nije pravo, odma sjednu u avijon i tres u cilj. Zato je
Mesic bez veze osiguravao svoj skup uniformiranim cuvarima koji
su bauljali po dvorani i pred njom. U Hrvatskoj se frke ne
organiziraju dole. Sve frke organiziraju se odozgo.
Helikopter i avijon treba hitno kupiti Miomir Zuzul, nas
ambasador u Americi. To je vazno da ne gubi vrijeme bez veze.
Jer je, kako sam kaze, za jednog veleposlanika neuobicajeno
puno puta bijo u Bijeloj kuci. Bio Klinton tamo ili ne bio. Neki
vazni americki politicari bili su moji privatni gosti u Imotskom,
rekao je. No, osim sto se ceesto sastajao sa Klintonom, Zuzulu
je Al Gor, podpredsjednik Amerike, rekao: Vidjam vas cesce
nego polovicu moga osoblja. Mene ionako u Bijeloj kuci
optuzuju da sam Hrvat. prema tome, samo to sto nema
helikopter sprecava Zuzula da je stalno kod Klintona. Pa puno
gubi na putu od svojeg stana do Klintonove kuce. ako mu ne
kupimo helikopter, Klinton ce zatraziti, sav ocajan, sto ga Zuzul
svaku noc napusta da Miomir kod nejga ostane spavati. Da mu
daje savjete. Osim toga, mora se srediti stvar oko toga da se Al
Gora zamoli da ipak dozvoli da Klinton ima prednost kod Zuzula.
Uostalom, kad pogledamo vijesti iz Amerike, vidimo da se Klinton
svako malosagne prema svojoj zeni pa je pita, onda ona njemu
odgovora. Klinton je, ustvari, pita: Du ju nou vea iz Miomir nou.
Znas li di je Miomir sada. Onda ona kaze Hi iz et houm in Imocki.
On je kod kuce u Imotskom. Onda Klinton pogledanebo i kaze
O boze kada ce se vratiti. Onda Hilari kaze: Aj rieli dont nou.
Samo Bog zna. Eto, zato Klinton redovito ide u crkvu. Moli se
Bogu da se Miomir sto prije vrati iz Imockog.
Kako li nam je u Hrvatskoj super. Eto, u Srbiji, donedavni sef
kontraobavjestajne sluzbe Vojske Jugosalvije uhvacen je na
beogradskom aerodromu. Poksao je zdimiti iz Srbije. I to sa
74 000 maraka i nesto zlatnog nakita. Pa tamo je zbilja nevidjeni
teror i uzas. Pa koji bi nas vazniji covjek zdimio sa pisljivih
74 000 maraka. Kod nas je sloboda maksimalna. Nasi mogu
iznijeti koliko hoce.
Amerika je bogata. Ali ni tamo se lako ne zivi. Vecinom
glasova zastupnici americkog Kongresa odlucili su da njihov
sef, Gingric", ima platiti 300 000 dolara kazne jer je lagao pred
Kongresom. Kaznjavanje su podrzali i clanovi njegove stranke,
republikanci. On je na nekom fakultetu, a sto ne smije,
agitirao za svoje. A onda je jos nesto oko toga prtljao Komisiji
Kongresa dok ga nisu ufatili da laze. Srecom da kod nas nije
tako. Nek nama nasi politicari lazu koliko hoce. Nemojmo ih
u tom vatat. Imaju, jadni, svega po dvije tri hiljade maraka
place , jedva su dosli do auta i stanova. Kad bi, jadni, morali
plcat kazne od 300 000 maraka - ne bi imali otkud dati. Onda
bi se oni morali snaci da nadju jos 300 000 maraka za platit
kaznu. Onda bi morali lagat odkud im. Onda bi se morali opet
snaci za nekoliko milijuna maraka da opet poplacaju kazne.
A plus toga bi se morali snalazit za aute, kuce, vikendice,
hotele. Prema tome, neka oni lazu slobodno. Bez kazne. Jer,
kad bi ih se kaznjavalo, to bi nas svih strasno kostalo. Lako u
Americi. Tamo u politiku ulaze bogati ljudi. Pa je lako njima
uzeti. A jadni nasi poceli od nicega. I u ovih pet godina jos nisu
mogli stic Amerikance. Zato im moramo dati fore.
Ko zna s koliko bi u Americi kaznili Ljilju Vokic zbog davanja
netocne izjave. Jer je rekla da je rodjena usred 1948., 20.
lipnja. Te kaze: zato uvijek govorim Ne. Tako je Tito rekao
Staljinu. I, fakat, Tito sa Staljinom nije imao djece. Dok ih Ljilja
Vokic ima pet. A mozda je ona zbilja vikala Ne ne ne i ne. A to
joj nije pomoglo. A kad ju je muz pitao kome to one vice Ne,
Ljilja Vokic je odgovarala da ona to kaze Staljinu. A rekla je pet
puta Da. Valjda svaki put kad bi joj se prisunjao muz svucen u
Tita.
Boris Petrov
Mirko iz "demokratskog Beograda" bi da zaboravimo Jasenovac i
gajimo odnose - bez isprike i kaznjavanja desetaka tisuca
zlocinaca odgovornih za genocid nad Bosnom i Hrvatskom a koji
sada "demokratski" protestiraju.... Svasta.
Miroslav D Trajkovic
You just increase his popularity:-)
There is nothing wrong in making Greater Serbia, Croatioa or something
simmilar. It is the methods what matters. If you shoot at refugees (as
Cratian army did last year), than comander has to be sent to Hague.
It's quite silly that Hague Tribunal accused Martic for shelling Zagreb
(and killing five) and did not accuse Tudjman neither for operation
"Bljesk" nor "Oluje", although he has attacked "UN protected areas",
and killed hundreds (in not thousands ) of people.
So, the fact that Djindjic (as same as many Serbs) supports
the "Union of all Serbs
within a single State", recommends a government-
organised birth control programme for the Albanian
opulation of Serbian-controlled Kosovo and calls for
the estoration of the monarchy in the new Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia"
does not make him animal, and I think that it's clear to anyone
that there is nothing wrong in being Chetnik.
BTW, it's not Dzindzic, but Djindjic.
As for monarchy, Serbian royal family has asked Slovenian goverment
for return of their property in Slovenia (to emphasize, private
property, which was bought by the family, and nationalised by
Slovenian Communists after the WWII) - what do you think the Court
has rulled?
The nationalisation was declared lawful, and The Karadjordjevic
family DOES NOT have any right for their private properties.
So much about "democratic western republics".
Miroslav
Aleksandar Erkalovic
Paul Andrej Jurcic (jur...@cadvision.com) wrote:
: Zasto je onda Whasinghton radio svim silama (i uspio!) da se Butros B Ghali
: ponovno ne izabete za glaqvnog tajnika UN i da li je novi tajnik takodjer u toj
: Internacionali???
: Paul
e to se zove TAKTICKI potez da se zavara neprijatelj :-)
--
sutra jutro ja povracam, cehovi na nocni zivot placam,
na duvane i na lozu, na cirovi i nervozu.
Drazen Pozaric
> Mirko iz "demokratskog Beograda" bi da zaboravimo Jasenovac i
> gajimo odnose - bez isprike i kaznjavanja desetaka tisuca
> zlocinaca odgovornih za genocid nad Bosnom i Hrvatskom a koji
> sada "demokratski" protestiraju.... Svasta.
Ono, istina je da je Beograd (pogotovo za nas Hrvate) malo prekasno postao
demokratski grad (kamo srece da su 1990. na ulicama izvikivali parole
protiv Milosevica i rata umjesto ZA Milosevica i za rat), no Mirko nigdje
ne kaze da krivce ne treba kazniti. Oni koji su "skuhali" kojekakve
Jasenovce i 2WW su sada ili u penziji, ili mrtvi, ili u emigraciji ili,
recimo, na vlasti (kao kod nas u Hrvatskoj). Njima, ni u kom slucaju ne
mozemo nista. Zaboraviti se ne smije, ali se moze postici zaborav bar u toj
mjeri da ne krivimo za nesto one koji za to nisu krivi. Jer cak i Ratko
Mladic, koliko god da je neuravnotezeni nacionalisticki krmak, nije nam
kriv za 2WW. Kazniti treba onoga tko je kriv. I zato se u vecoj mjeri
slazem sa Mirkom nego sa vama, gospodine Petrovcicu.
Drazen
P.S.
Btw, cini mi se da niste nicim demantirali tvrdnju o svojem porijeklu ?
Istina je da to meni nije bitno, ali ako je istina, a vi toliko mrzite one
sa kojima iste korijene dijelite...
Boris Petrov
Dear Editor,
I think that you should not have, in your otherwise very
interesting and correct story about Serbian opposition
(Time, January 27, 1997), described Zoran Djindjic, even
through words of Mr. Simic as "completely modern,"
"pragmatic," "young yuppie," "cosmopolitan," and
democratic politician. If you chose Vesna Pesic, a genuine
democrat, who was from the first day of the war opposed
to Milosevic's aggressive and genocidal politics in Croatia
and Bosnia, your choice would be more than justifiable.
(However), in trying to explain Djindjic's lasting support
for Radovan Karadzic's criminal policy, you used an
akward argument stating that "in 1994, as Milosevic was
bending to Western pressure to rein in Bosnian Serbs,
Djindjic tried to embarrass him by paying a high profile
visit to Pale, the Bosnian Serb headquarters." However,
the facts say something different; the visit and a whole
co-operation with Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic
were only a good illustration of Zoran Djindjic's true
political convictions and goals, while his today's behavior
is just an image-making show for Western journalists and
politicians. Even after twelve weeks of protests, he still
did not condemn Serbia's aggressive politics and he still
did not publicly support either the Hague Tribunal, either
Bosnia as a single, multiethnic state. Instead of that, he
looks upon respecting the Dayton agreements as some kind
of vis maior, a necessity not to provoke anger of Western
diplomats. At the beginning of Belgrade demonstrations
he gave an interview to Austrian television (December 3).
A reporter asked him whether opposition's position
towards the war and Bosnia is any different than
Milosevic's. Djindjic answered: "Mister Milosevic uses
forces in a careless manner. We differ from him not in
goals, but in means." Finally, Djindjic's new democratic
image was best exposed by Danica Draskovic,
charismatic wife of the other opposition leader, at the
same time your article was released: "I can not say that
Zoran Djindjic is a moral person, even though today he
is in a coalition with Vuk (Draskovic) because he
supported the war and people in Bosnian Serbs'
government who killed tens thousands of people. If
someone, like Karadzic, Mladic, Plavsic, Krajisnik, and
others, for four years shells the people of Sarajevo,
women and oldsters, among whom there are a lot of Serbs
- and if Djindjic supported them, considering shooting at
people as a public spectacle - then that kind of man, in my
opinion can never be clean. I would forgive him if he
would sincerely apologize, implore on his knees, and
repetantly admit that he was wrong." (interview to Croatian
Nacional Magazine, January 29, 1997). People, especially
politicians, change, adapt their rhetoric and behavior
according to circumstances and necessities. In that sense
perhaps, Djindjic changed. However, I think that Time
would a much bigger favor to Serbian democracy, and
also pay greater respect to victims in Bosnia if it would
ask Djindjic whether he, at least today, condemns
aggression and genocide, and not to describe him as
"yuppie" and "modern politician."
(sent by BL)
Boris Petrov
In <01bc1379$d8775100$Loca...@drazeb.alf.tel.hr> "Drazen Pozaric"
<drazen....@pu.tel.hr> writes:
Kazniti treba onoga tko je kriv. I zato se u vecoj mjeri
>slazem sa Mirkom nego sa vama, gospodine Petrovcicu.
>
>Drazen
>
>P.S.
>
>Btw, cini mi se da niste nicim demantirali tvrdnju o svojem porijeklu
?
>Istina je da to meni nije bitno, ali ako je istina, a vi toliko mrzite
one
>sa kojima iste korijene dijelite...
>
Drazen "prodikuje" da se slaze sa cetnikom koji je u odgovoru
VELICAO pisanije cetnickog ideologa V. Draskovica..... Ali,
ujedno, iako mu to nije vazno, zapitkuje da zasto nisam
demantirao objede cetnickog propagandista koji, kao i
HDZ-ovski propagandisti (isti ljudski smrad prema pokazanom
ponasanju prema Bosnjacima) - lazu kad zinu. Bijedno, vise
nego bijedno i sramotno od Drazena Pozarica. Boris Petrovcic
Galja
Boris,
I agree with you that in the slavering this country has for cute Slavic
protesters, a sort of anything but what we have seen from Serbia so far
mentality,with a secret wish "let them be sane", there have been very
few questions put to the so called leadership of the Zajednost including
who is actually leading, how cohesive is this movement, and what does
anyone plan to implement after the elections are verified? I am also
worried about the numerous people wthat members o fthe Zajednost could
be talking to and planning with and are not. It seems so much, at this
time, a convenient way of changing focus abroad over the leadership
rather than any substantive new leadership at all. New names for old
places, same minds for new faces, that sort of thing.
And yet, we hope, we hope, don't we, for real change. So I look in the
old speeches of Djindjic and I see hope there, for some of his former
policies weren't so bad, even inclusive and realistic.
But it is high time for a few of these dudes to start speaking.
A lot of people would reelly like it if Danica Drashkovic would
magically become a contender in the political arena in fact rather than
in thoughts and dreams. People like her, she has genuine leadership
qualities, and it would show the world that Serbia is not as sexist as
it is.....:)
Galja
Larry Allen
Barry S. Marjanovich wrote:
>
> On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, dd chukurov (The SERVant) wrote:
>
> > MEDIA FALSEHOODS ABOUT THE WAR IN FORMER YUGOSLAVIA DISCOVERED
>
> TYPE=CLOSEUP
> NUMBER=4-08898
> TITLE='YUGOSLAVIA: DEATH OF A NATION'
> BYLINE=PAMELA TAYLOR
> TELEPHONE=619-1101
> DATELINE=WASHINGTON
> EDITOR=PHIL HAYNES
>
>
> PROSPERITY AND THERE WERE A LOT OF EXPORTED GOODS IN
> YUGOSLAVIA. THERE WAS REALLY A SENSE THAT MAYBE ECONOMIC
> CRISES COULD BE PUT BEHIND THEM. YUGOSLAVIA SEEMED AT
> THAT POINT VERY WELL POSITIONED TO MAKE THE TRANSITION
> IN EUROPE. SO WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT PRESIDENT
> MILOSEVIC WAS STIRRING UP NATIONALISM, HE GAVE THEM AN
> ALTERNATIVE. HE SAID TO THEM, 'WELL, THIS WAS ALL
> SURPRESSED FOR SO LONG AND NOW YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO
> SAY YOU ARE SERBS AGAIN'. AND THAT'S WHAT THESE PEOPLE
> FELT WAS SURPRESSED. MILOSEVIC DIDN'T CREATE THE
> NATIONALIST SENTIMENTS. THEY WERE THERE BUT HAD NEVER
> BEEN DIFUSED OR DEALT WITH UNDER TITO'S COMMUNIST
> REGIME. SO MILOSEVIC WAS JUST MANIPULATING THEM AND
> IGNIGHTING FEARS AND SAYING 'IF YOU MAKE THIS CHOICE AND
> SACRIFICE EVERYTHING YOU WILL HAVE NATIONAL DIGNITY'.
>
############
If you substitute Hitler for Milosevic, you will hardly
notice any difference!
LS isn't far off the mark in the remarks above, but the full truth is
that anyone who wants to know what really allowed the Serbs to carry out
the genocide of Muslims must look to the corporate services that were
obtained from Kissinger Assoc. But for Henry and Larry, who lobbied the
USA and allies it could never have taken place. This is a fact that the
media kept inside their vest, since both men were previous Secty of
State and their activities might have been seen by many as bordering on
treason. Another clear instance that proves we have a controlled media.
P.S. Voice of America is a resource of the intelligence community.
Y Rapido
Drazen Pozaric wrote:
> Ono, istina je da je Beograd (pogotovo za nas Hrvate) malo prekasno postao
> demokratski grad (kamo srece da su 1990. na ulicama izvikivali parole
[deleted]
rap: Beograd je kao i svi ostali gradovi SR Srbije (i SR Crne Gore)
tokom 1980-tih godina bio opijen i opijan koljackom ultra-sovinistickom
histerijom. Sjetiti se samo treba RAZBIJANJA izloga "Gorenja" (iz
Slovenije!) sredinom 1980-tih i drugom polovinom 1980-tih, a da o
gorim incidentima i ne govrimo. Sto se tice knjiga, novina,
TV programa, itd., u Beogradu, 1980-tih (druga polovina, pogotovo)
su ta sredstva bila nacional-sovinisticka tribina dovedena do stupnja
alarma!
Medjutim, istina je i to da su studenti u Beogradu marsirali
1990 godine Beogradom i uzvikivali "Slobo, Sadame", te da je
bila jedna manjina medju Srbima koja je bila protiv koljacke
retorike i prakse koju je sproveo velikosrpski koljacki stroj.
U tome ima jedan interesantan podatak, a taj je, da su upravo
te demokratske snage 1990 godine bile potisnute ne samo od
Milosevica, Seselja, Karadzica, Cosica (cijele SANU, JNA, itd.)
i ostalih velikosrba -- nego su bile potisnute i od strane
Franje Tudjmana i njegove kamarile koju je on mobilizirao
1990 godine i nadalje.
Bez Tudjmana, Milosevic ovaj rat nebi mogao niti zapoceti,
a kamo li ga obaviti na ovakav jeziv nacin! Milosevic i
Tudjman idu ZAJEDNO u svemu tome. Bez ucesca Hrvatske
u ratu protiv RBiH i Bosnjacke nacije, taj rat je bio
prakticno unaprijed osudjen na propast, odn. na reviziju i
prije njegovog pocetka -- reviziju koja je mogla biti
spasonostna!
Naravno, tu treba ubaciti i Seseljevog "Ljubimca" Aliju
Izetbegovica koji je na projekat Milosevic-Tudjman pristao
i prije samog stupanja na vlast u Sarajevu, a pogotovu
kasnije. Medjutim, Izetbegovic je tu ipak "mali od
kuzine", a Bosnjacka nacija i lojalni gradjani RBiH
nisu njegovo ucesce do kraja jos shvatili. Ali, kako su
upravo lojalni gradjani RBiH bili za mir i opstanak
demokratskih drzava u jednoj solidnoj i dobronamjerno
postavljenoj konfederaciji drzava koje su sacinjavale
SFRJ, to Bosnjackoj naciji, kao zrtvi, nemozemo naci nekih
ozbiljnih zamjerki.
Jos jednom, napomenuti treba, da su ubilacke snage u
Srbiji u Franji Tudjmanu imale svojeg najjaceg kolaboratora
van Srbije.
To su cinjenice, a raznih teorija ima i bice.
HarizH
Pa Mirkosu normalno da necete kad niste mogli i vise nikada, nikada necete
moci, jer cete dobiti po guzici.
A sada bi da gradis dobrosusjedske odnose, sto ih nisi gradio kada si sa
tenkovima gazio po nenaoruzanom narodu Hrvatske (nase lijepe) i Bosne i
Hercegovine.
Mi cemo graditi te odnose sa gosp. Vladimirom Srebrovom jer jedino je on u
pocetku rata i onoga zvjerstva sto ste uradili po nasim domovinama rekao
da ga je STID sto je Srbin. Izvinjavam se i nekolici onih koji su isto
rekli.
A o Vuku i demokratiji ne smijem da pisem puknuce mi ekran od smijeha.
Loran Pezdirc
On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Miroslav D Trajkovic wrote:
> As for monarchy, Serbian royal family has asked Slovenian goverment
> for return of their property in Slovenia (to emphasize, private
> property, which was bought by the family, and nationalised by
> Slovenian Communists after the WWII) - what do you think the Court
> has rulled?
> The nationalisation was declared lawful, and The Karadjordjevic
> family DOES NOT have any right for their private properties.
Did they also came on the idea to give back the gold and money that their
family in 1941 as they escaped from Yugoslavia?
LP
Drazen Pozaric
Y Rapido <rap...@eskimo.com> wrote in article <32F909...@eskimo.com>...
> Jos jednom, napomenuti treba, da su ubilacke snage u
> Srbiji u Franji Tudjmanu imale svojeg najjaceg kolaboratora
> van Srbije.
Sve sto pise gore stoji na klimavim nogama i predstavlja nista drugo nego
trazenje krivaca da se ublazi ona "svoja". Da ja ubijem nekog Alzirca
ovdje, ne bih mogao naci opravdanja u tome sto u Alziru (pogotovo sada za
vrijeme ramazana) ubijaju sve koji nisu muslimani.
Mikan
>
> A lot of people would reelly like it if Danica Drashkovic would
> magically become a contender in the political arena in fact rather than
> in thoughts and dreams. People like her, she has genuine leadership
> qualities, and it would show the world that Serbia is not as sexist as
> it is.....:)
>
Are you mad? She is nuts and everyone knows it. I hope you were just
sarcastic. It would be nice if Sloba and Vuk could satisfy their wives at
home so that they wouldn't get involved in politics. It's just not for
women...
> Galja
Mikan
Boris Petrov
NYT - February 6, 1997
Analysis: Serbia Crisis Is Not Over Yet
CHRIS HEDGES
BELGRADE, Yugoslavia -- Although the opposition appears
to have won a tremendous victory in its 78-day confrontation
with President Slobodan Milosevic, the crisis that has rocked
Serbia is far from over.
The opposition coalition that now takes control of Serbia's
14 largest cities -- and aspires to wrest power from Milosevic
-- has yet to come up with a vision for this country, which is
mired in economic collapse and political turmoil that shows
no signs of abating.
Although opposition leaders talk frequently of their plans
for a market economy and a "civil society," their
commitment to those ideas remains unproven.
The predominant desire among workers who have lived for
months without salary and hard-pressed retirees is for a
strongman to impose order.
Rather than spell out austerity measures and painful
reforms, opposition leaders rely on the same images and
slogans of Serbian nationalism that ignited the war in
Yugoslavia six years ago and made Serbia an
international pariah.
Wednesday night, for example, one of the leading
opposition figures, Zoran Djindjic, lambasted the
government for abandoning Serbs in the last Serbian-
held enclave in Croatia, due under the Dayton peace
agreement to be returned to Croatian control in July.
The plight of Serbs living outside Serbia's borders was
a key issue for Milosevic as he transformed himself
from communist leader to popularly elected nationalist.
"Our political opposition, as has been the pattern for
most of our history, simply mirrors the government," said
Latinka Perovic, who was purged in 1971 from her post
as head of the Communist Party in Yugoslavia when
she began to push for liberal reforms. "It refuses to
mention our problems in public.
"No one is attempting to build a rational political
program, to be self-critical. Instead the opposition, like
the government, rejects gradual, systematic change
for this archaic, romantic Serbian nationalism that
belongs in the 19th century."
Djindjic insists that he is not a nationalist and that he
is using such oratory only because it is essential to
building any political movement in Serbia. There are
limits, he said in a recent interview, on how quickly
his countrymen can be persuaded to follow the path
blazed by others in the region.
"I have to believe that the majority of Serbs want to
become Western," he said, referring to European
political systems, "but we must also address those
who are afraid of the West. It will be devastating for
us if we make the wrong estimation, if we turn sharply
toward the West and discover that only a minority of
the Serbs want to go in this direction."
Djindjic says he hopes to privatize industry, foster a
free press and build an independent judiciary, but his
is only one voice among an opposition that covers the
spectrum from Belgrade intellectuals who genuinely
espouse democracy to ardent nationalists.
"For the moment our concern is with the cities we
will control," Djindjic said. "But we are fighting a
system that has a total monopoly on all exports, all
production, all state and local expenditures, all
credits and the media. For now we can't even control
city clerks, who have the power to sign away a
200-million-dinar building for a 1-million-dinar bribe."
Unlike many of its neighbors, Serbia has not even
begun to dismantle the political and economic
underpinnings of communism. Most people work for
companies controlled by a government that dominates
every aspect of commerce, from banking to exports.
Staggered by an economic embargo during the years
of the war in Bosnia, Serbia's economy and its bleak,
polluted cities and towns are sad testaments to
communist mismanagement and post-communist
corruption.
Trains, which rarely break 40 miles an hour on old
tracks, can no longer effectively transport goods.
Factories, saddled with obsolete technology from two
decades ago, limp along at 10 or 20 percent of capacity.
Roads are filled with yawning potholes, and the
currency, bloated with a government decision to begin
printing money, is barreling daily toward hyperinflation.
The country has a 60 percent functional illiteracy rate.
Foreign investment is nearly nonexistent, and wages
have dropped from about $800 a month to less than
$100 a month.
The cost of Serbia's flirtation with glory and power can
be seen outside Belgrade's shabby soup kitchens.
At one of the largest, retired men and women, their
bony fingers wrapped around the wire handles of round
tin lunch pails, stood in front of a window in a
distribution center on Bjelanoviceva Street.
Milena Milojevic, 49, is a mother of two who has
worked for 28 years as a checkout clerk in a
government supermarket. She makes $100 a month,
spending $60 a month to rent a tiny apartment that
does not have running water. Her husband has been
laid off from his job at a government factory.
Mrs. Milojevic's family lives in the middle of the country's
capital and uses an outhouse in back of the building.
Her remaining $40 a month does not begin to feed or
clothe her 14-year-old son and 12-year-old daughter.
After nearly three decades as a minor government
employee, she survives on charity.
"Our society has collapsed," she said. "You have to be
a fool not to see this. I don't waste my time with the
opposition rallies -- this is for the middle class. If this
opposition takes power, it will steal like Milosevic. We
need a strong leader one who doesn't go abroad like
these other opposition leaders to speak badly about
Serbia and carry out the orders given by the West. This
is the only way out."
Despite appeals by the opposition coalition for Western
support, the United States and Europe are widely blamed
for betraying the Serbs. And while many use the catch
words of democracy, few seem to understand them.
"The crowds in the street look and sound pro-American,"
said Bogdan Denitch, the director of the Institute for
Transition to Democracy, "but if tomorrow Washington
begins to put pressure on Milosevic to respect the rights
of the Albanian majority in Kosovo, the crowds will
swiftly turn anti-American.
"The opposition does not see its role as one of educating
the crowd to the reality around us. I am worried that with
Milosevic weak and on his way out, he will be replaced by
an even weaker opposition that will have to play to the
sentiments of the crowd, to all these nationalist pressures
from below."
In fact, the state propaganda machine has devoted
increasing space and air time to the plight of the Serbian
minority in Kosovo, the southern province where Serbs
rule over an Albanian majority.
That leaves the opposition, which supports the Bosnian
Serb leadership and was critical of the Dayton peace
agreement, in the position of having to once again outdo
the President as the real defenders of the Serbs.
"It is absurd to speak about Serb ascendancy in a
nation where one-third of the people are non-Serbs and
then call ourselves democrats," said Obrad Savic, the
editor in chief of the magazine published by intellectual
dissidents from the Belgrade Circle, "but it is
symptomatic of the hollowness of our political debate."
Already there are signs that the economic crisis is
shattering the fabric of the society. Without a cohesive
ideology or understanding why their society has
collapsed, many Serbs have begun to flail about in
uncoordinated attacks. Teachers are on strike, with
metal workers and communications workers threatening
now to join them.
"Such strikes will inspire other groups to strike," wrote
columnist Ivan Torov, in the independent daily Nasa
Borba. "The authorities may soon find themselves
trying to put out multiple fires and struggling to stave
off a general conflagration."
But such a rebellion, without a clear political orientation
and led by opposition leaders who refuse to discuss the
causes of the nation's troubles, increasingly worries
many union leaders and intellectuals.
"The opposition has no economic program, and its
supporters parade through the streets wearing
monarchist emblems and clutching crosses and
candles," said Branislav Canak, the president of the
Independent United Branch of Trade Unions. The
economy is collapsing, but we have yet to frame and
unify our political debate. In the end we will be
controlled by numerous angry mobs seeking quick
solutions. This isn't going to work. We are headed for
chaos."
The government daily issues Potemkin-like figures
showing that production is on the rise and the
economy is improving. Prime Minister Mirko Marjanovic
announced recently, for example, that this was "the
year of reforms" and went on to promise "a better,
richer and more humane society."
Even Wednesday as the opposition was poised to take
over city halls across the country, many ordinary Serbs
seemed skeptical.
"The opposition may find that it, instead of Milosevic,
will be blamed for the devastated economy," said
Dragana Lovic, a secretary. "No one will remember that
it was the Socialists who ruined the country and will
begin to look for someone else. We have short
memories."
The student movement has refused, because of its
distrust of the political opposition, to meld its forces
with the Zajedno coalition. But while the student
movement distances itself from the political debate,
its naivete and lack of focus is one of the clearest
examples of the failure by most Serbs to understand
what has happened to them or where they want to
end up.
"The problem," admitted one student leader, Goran
Pavlovic, 23, "is that people know what they don't want.
And they don't know yet what they do want."
</PRE></HTML>
Dream Master
Galja (sp...@erols.com) wrote:
: Boris Petrov wrote:
: >
: > Dear Editor,
: >
: > I think that you should not have, in your otherwise very
: > interesting and correct story about Serbian opposition
: > (Time, January 27, 1997), described Zoran Djindjic, even
: > through words of Mr. Simic as "completely modern,"
: > "pragmatic," "young yuppie," "cosmopolitan," and
: > democratic politician. If you chose Vesna Pesic, a genuine
: > democrat, who was from the first day of the war opposed
: > to Milosevic's aggressive and genocidal politics in Croatia
: > and Bosnia, your choice would be more than justifiable.
: > (However), in trying to explain Djindjic's lasting support
: > for Radovan Karadzic's criminal policy, you used an
: > akward argument stating that "in 1994, as Milosevic was
: > bending to Western pressure to rein in Bosnian Serbs,
: > Djindjic tried to embarrass him by paying a high profile
: > visit to Pale, the Bosnian Serb headquarters." However,
: > the facts say something different; the visit and a whole
: > co-operation with Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic
: > were only a good illustration of Zoran Djindjic's true
: > political convictions and goals, while his today's behavior
: > is just an image-making show for Western journalists and
: > politicians. Even after twelve weeks of protests, he still
: Boris,
: A lot of people would reelly like it if Danica Drashkovic would
: magically become a contender in the political arena in fact rather than
: in thoughts and dreams. People like her, she has genuine leadership
: qualities, and it would show the world that Serbia is not as sexist as
: it is.....:)
: Galja
Ponekad bas preteras...
Sometimes you really over do it...
--
|=|
-------------------------------ooO-( 0 0 )-Ooo------------------------------
Dragutin Cvetkovic (_) arge...@zmajtech.hobbiton.co.yu
Beograd drag...@slin.aubg.bg
Yugoslavia arge...@galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miroslav D Trajkovic
> ozbiljnih zamjerki.
>
> Jos jednom, napomenuti treba, da su ubilacke snage u
> Srbiji u Franji Tudjmanu imale svojeg najjaceg kolaboratora
> van Srbije.
>
hrvatske opozicije, morate da imate na umu da su se u obe republike
pocetkom 70-ih javila dva opoziciona pokreta.
U Srbiji, Liberalizam Marka Nikezica, koji se vise manje zalagao
za trzisnu privredu (dakle pro-zapadni).
I Mas-Pok u Hrvatskoj, koji je po svoj prirodi bio cisto nacionalisticki
(ne znam da li su i tada rehabilitovali ustase).
Po meni, to je bitna razlika.
Miroslav D Trajkovic
That's what you (as me) learnt in the school. Anyway, even if they
took the gold:
1) they took it from Belgrade, not from Ljubljana (btw, was it Leibach
in German ?)
2) Slovenian Government can estimate what the loss was and sue them,
but can not take away private property (remember, this is a sacred
thing, at least in capitalism :-).
Regards
Miroslav
Boris Petrov
"Vijenac" broj 76, 5. prosinca 1996.
Branimir Donat: "Dotepenci bez kinte"
Da sam slucajno staljinist, ponovio bih onu poznatu Staljinovu "sto
gore, to bolje". Hrvatska nije u situaciji da to moze reci. Ali, u
Hrvatskoj ima toliko zgadije koja permanentno proizvodi to "gore"
umjesto "boljega", da se mora reagirati. Trebalo bi odmah sazvati
izvanrednu sjednicu Vijeca za slobodu javnog informiranja. Trenutak
je odvec dramatican, a da mi u ovom skandaloznom cinu ne
iskoristimo svoje pravo na rijec. Znam da nemam nikakvu izvrsnu
moc, ali ovo je posljednji trenutak da reknemo koju o
nekompetenciji mnogih ljudikoji misle da svojim djelovanjem
pomazu Hrvatskoj. Trenutak je da vec jednom kazemo da nam
razni Mudrinici (moja napomena: sjetimo se fa je Tudjman lazno
frfljao da je dao ogroman stan u centru Zagreba tom nepoznatom i
ama po nicemu slavnom povratniku iz Kanade jer da je taj donio
neke silne patente na dar Hrvatskoj), Filipovici i ina dotepena celjad
uopce ne trebaju. Oni kojima TAKVI trebaju neka ih drze doma
kao kucne, a ne i nacionalne ljubimce. Oni o Hrvatskoj ne znaju
nista, a kao ljudi koji su se vratili bez dolara u dzepu samo pokazuju
da su poslovno bili nesposobni, impotentni, a nnajvjerojatnije i ljueni
te da u demokratskom svijetu gdje su sva vrata otvorena za
poduzetne duhove nisu postigli NISTA. Cemu i zasto vjerovati da ce
u Hrvatskoj uciniti ista korisno, kada nisu nista uradili tamo gdje je
to mnogo lakse? Drzali su figu u dzepu ne shvacajuci da se svaka
hrvatska bitka uvijek vodila iskljucivo ovdje u Hrvatskoj.
Moja napomena: B. Donat je u pravu sto se tice importiranih
pripadnika HDZ mafije koji ni u inozemstvu nikad nista nisu ucinili
za Hrvatsku - bilo novcem bilo djelom, a sto je jos gore - mnogi su
bili udbaski dousnici i suradnici progoneci borce za Hrvatsku koji
su se i financijski trosili i bili izlozeni teroru. Medjutim - poanta
je
da Tupavi upravo trazi i zeli lijene, blesave, kompromitirane i
nesposobne - jer takovi su mu slijepo odani i spremni na sve da
odrze sebe i obitelj Tupavog na bogatim hrvatskim jaslama i na
hrvatskoj grbaci. Ne moze se dakle kritizirati zgadiju kao
Mudrinice" a prvo ne pljunuti u lice najvecem hrvatskom gadu -
Franji Tudjmanu.
Boris Petrovcic
PS: Ovaj clanak sam prenio iz "Hrvatske revije" Vinka Nikolica
od prosinca 1996. Taj cuveni casopis sada izlazi u Zagrebu;
nakon pocetnog lizanja riti HDZ mafiji i Tudjmanu osjecaj za
dostojanstvo i ljubav prema Hrvatskoj je konacno proradio -
broj sadrzi jedan od najdirektnijih napada na Tudjmana i HDZ
mafiju koji do sada imao prilike citati.
paja baksis
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95q.97020...@odosha.cip.informatik.uni-muenchen.de>,
pez...@informatik.uni-muenchen.de says...
>
>
>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Miroslav D Trajkovic wrote:
>
>
>
>> As for monarchy, Serbian royal family has asked Slovenian goverment
>> for return of their property in Slovenia (to emphasize, private
>> property, which was bought by the family, and nationalised by
>> Slovenian Communists after the WWII) - what do you think the Court
>> has rulled?
>> The nationalisation was declared lawful, and The Karadjordjevic
>> family DOES NOT have any right for their private properties.
>
>
>Did they also came on the idea to give back the gold and money that their
>family in 1941 as they escaped from Yugoslavia?
>
>
>LP
>
labavo.Kad Kralj i njegovi vrate Slovencima 56 mil.dolara u zlatnim polugama i revalorizovanu
vrednost od 230 miliona ondasnjih Dinara tada ce Slovenija Kralju da vrati kucicu i malo
zemljice oko nje.A i Rembrandta kojeg je drug Stane sebi licno poklonio.
Sta oni nama Slovencima da prebacuju da smo mi lopovi koji donose Zakone kojima kradju
proglasavaju zakonitom.Ma nece ga majci.Da znaju nema vracanja.To je Slovenacki narod napravio
i naslikao .Rembrandta.I nismo mi to drpili kako zli jezici kazu.To je drpila bivsa FNRJ a i
SFRJ.Posto mi Slovenci sa tim fdantomskim tvorevinama nemamo ama bas nista nemamo nista ni da
vratimo Kraljevskoj familiji.Ali ipak kao znak dobre volje mi cemo joj vratiti kucicu.Kad oni
nama vrate zlato i lovu.A do tada drug nas Jansa i Milan i Janez ima da se baskare u kraljevoj
kucici kao u svojoj.Da i oni malo trose kraljevsku imovinu kad je kraljevina trosila
Sloveniju.
Alen Ludas
Boris Petrov wrote:
> .....
> PS: Ovaj clanak sam prenio iz "Hrvatske revije" Vinka Nikolica
> od prosinca 1996. Taj cuveni casopis sada izlazi u Zagrebu;
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> nakon pocetnog lizanja riti HDZ mafiji i Tudjmanu osjecaj za
> dostojanstvo i ljubav prema Hrvatskoj je konacno proradio -
> broj sadrzi jedan od najdirektnijih napada na Tudjmana i HDZ
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> mafiju koji do sada imao prilike citati.
Vidi, vidi.... Pa je li moguce da mi to imamo slobodu
izrazavanja u Hrvatskoj ??? Otkud sad ta iznenadna i
atipicna pojava ??? Koliko se sjecam, velika vecina
sudionika s.c.c tvrdi da u Hrvatskoj nema ni "S" od
medijske slobode....
/Alen
Boris Petrov
Prezivjeli ustaski emigrant s Lipara govori
USTASKA EMIGRACIJA - LIPARI -
Svjedocenje jedinoga prezivjelog.
Zagrebacki tjednik 'Nacional', 31.6.1996, objavio je
na 4 pune stranice reportazu s talijanskog otoka
Lipari, gdje je 30-ih godina ovoga stoljeca bio glavni
logor emigranata ustasa. Rijec je o susretima s ondasnjim
mjestanima koji jos pamte ili su culi od roditelja
pojedinosti o boravku ustaskih emigranata u njihovu
gradicu (tu takodjer saznajemo da je ondje g. 1989.
Mladen Naletilic Tuta (moja napomena: bivsi Udbas a
sada sef HDZ mafije u Svercer-Bosni) postavio
spomen-plocu). Svoju reportazu novinar Igor Kolovrat
zavrsava: "Koliko je ustasa od njih 400 s Lipara
prezivjelo rat i Bleiburg, danas nije poznato, ni nama
ni mjestanima Lipara koji su ih zapamtili kao mirne,
cestite, vrijedne i dostojanstvene ljude, dakle - u
sasvim drukcijem svjetlu od onoga u kojemu su kasnije
predstavljani."
Reportaza se pojavila upravo u vrijeme izlaska knjige
uspomena i svjedocenja zacijelo jedinoga do danas
prezivjelog stanovnika ustaskih logora na Liparima
i Stromboliju, Muhameda Pilava, jednoga od svega dvojice
muslimana koji su se nasli u prvoj ustaskoj emigraciji.
Naslov knjige: "U USTASKOJ EMIGRACIJI S PAVELICEM -
Sjecanja vjecitog pobunjenika, zatvorenika, bjegunca";
izdavac: Bosnjacki institut Zurich-Sarajevo (1966).
Knjiga se moze naruciti uz cijenu od DM15 na adresi:
Bosniaken Institut, Sonneggstr. 4, 8006 Zurich,
Switzerland (tel: 411 261 5370 ili 261 5373,
fax 261 5371).
O "idili" zivota u toj emigraciji, koju nam zeli
docarati ta reportaza, govori nesto i cinjenica da
je jedini drugi musliman ustasa, pored Pilava,
Hasan Huskic, Livnjak, bio ubijen u logoru San
Demetrio. O tome je Muhamedu Pilavu, odmah po njegovu
dolasku na Lipare, ispripovjedio svecenik Matija
Buric, koji je dosao k ustasama po nalogu svoga
biskupa u Senju, da bude dusobriznik izbjeglicama. O
tome Pilav govori: "Kad sam ga [Burica] upoznao
bio je to duboko razocaran, slomljen covjek. Mene je
zavolio i mnoge smo sate proveli u razgovoru. Vidio
je u meni idealista i govorio mi o zlocinackom
duhu i djelima ustaskih vodja, posebno Pavelica,
Budaka, Babica i Bubala. Savjetovao mi je: - Suti,
trpi, budi oprezan i glavu spasavaj. Pametnim i
postenim Hrvatima ovdje nije mjesto. Ja sam dosao kao
dusobriznik, ali ovdje se ne moze nista uciniti... O
Huskicu nemoj nikoga nista pitati. Radoznalost
bi te mogla stajati glave. Bio je to cestit covjek...
Pravi se kao da nikada o njemu nisi cuo..." -
Svecenika Matiju Burica ustase su poslije proglasile
ludim i kao ludjaka ga predali Talijanima da ga izruce
jugoslavenskoj policiji na granici u Rijeci.
Specijalitet ustaskoga vodstva u obracunavanju s onima
koji bi ocitovali svoje misljenje, pogotovu u pogledu
terora koji se ondje propovijedao i poucavao, bio je
odsijecanje glave, tako da talijanska policija nije
mogla ustanoviti identitet tjelesa koja bi na razlicitim
mjestima nalazili.
Sudbine niza znacajnih imena u ustaskoj emigraciji u
Madjarskoj i Italiji, kojima se ondje zameo trag, ostale
su za povjesnicare potpuna nepoznanica; ovo je prvi put
da se iz usta suvremenika i suputnika tih ljudi i
dogadjaja saznaje sto se zapravo tim licnostima dogodilo.
Nekoliko naslova iz knjige: Bijeg od srbovanja; Ni u
Zagrebu nema zivota od cetnika; Lipari; "Doglavnik" i
njegov "pobocnik"; Svecenik u ludnici; "Opasni" Branko
Jelic; Janka-pusta - propaganda i likvidacije; Spijunka
ili osvetnica?; Pismo Mussoliniju; Pismo Pavelicu; Pismo
Trumbicu i Maceku; Beogradski izaslanik; "Potrebna nam
je mocna Jugoslavija" [izjava Mile Budaka beogradskom
izaslaniku u Italiji]; Foca mijenja gospodare; Generalovo
prekrajanje Bosne; Cetnici saveznici Talijana; Hrvatski
robijas; U Jasenovcu; Srpski robijas; Prijatelji
monsinjori; "Mladi muslimani"; Opet u Focu - Tragom
velikog pokolja ...
Knjiga je vise nego izvrsna i zanimljiva - najtoplije ju
preporucam. Boris Petrovcic
lashir
> > magically become a contender in the political arena in fact rather than
> > in thoughts and dreams. People like her, she has genuine leadership
> > qualities, and it would show the world that Serbia is not as sexist as
> > it is.....:)
> >
>
> sarcastic. It would be nice if Sloba and Vuk could satisfy their wives at
> home so that they wouldn't get involved in politics. It's just not for
> women...
>
improvement over the current situation and then you could stay home and
do whatever you seem to be preoccupied with.
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
On 6 Feb 1997, Drazen Pozaric wrote:
> Y Rapido <rap...@eskimo.com> wrote in article <32F909...@eskimo.com>...
> > Srbiji u Franji Tudjmanu imale svojeg najjaceg kolaboratora
> > van Srbije.
Rapido po obicaju brije sto na sat.
Medjutim, uzmi u obzir cinjenicu da je Milosevicu u ozujku 1991, oko onih
*prvih* demonstracija, ruku vrlo uredno pruzio jedan stricek "iz
Paragvaja". :) Jedan od blesavijih poteza. Sto se vrlo brzo pokazalo.
--
vko...@r101.com.hr | I have an attitude and |
vko...@public.srce.hr | I'm not afraid to use it.|
Damir Sokcevic
>Bez Tudjmana, Milosevic ovaj rat nebi mogao niti zapoceti,
>a kamo li ga obaviti na ovakav jeziv nacin! Milosevic i
>Tudjman idu ZAJEDNO u svemu tome. Bez ucesca Hrvatske
>u ratu protiv RBiH i Bosnjacke nacije, taj rat je bio
>prakticno unaprijed osudjen na propast, odn. na reviziju i
>prije njegovog pocetka -- reviziju koja je mogla biti
>spasonostna!
Znaci, Tudjman se dogovorio s Milosevicem da se, npr., srusi sve juzno
od Dubrovnika, Vukovar i okolica, ubiju tisuce i protjeraju stotine tisuca
Hrvata ?
>To su cinjenice, a raznih teorija ima i bice.
Cinjenice ?
===========================================================================
Damir Sokcevic Phone: (385-1) 4561-194
Theoretical Physics Division
Rudjer Boskovic Institute Fax: (385-1) 428-541
Bijenicka c. 54
POB 1016 Internet: sokc...@thphys.irb.hr
10001 Zagreb
Croatia
============================================================================
Boris Petrov
In <Pine.SOL.3.93.970207...@jagor.srce.hr> Vlatko
Juric-Kokic <vko...@jagor.srce.hr> writes:
>
>*prvih* demonstracija, ruku vrlo uredno pruzio jedan stricek "iz
>Paragvaja". :) Jedan od blesavijih poteza. Sto se vrlo brzo pokazalo.
Nisam razumio ovo o "striceku iz Paragvaja" Mozete li mi
objasniti/podsjetiti. Mnogo hvala. Boris Petrovcic
Y Rapido
> Paul Andrej Jurcic (jur...@cadvision.com) wrote:
> : Zasto je onda Whasinghton radio svim silama (i uspio!) da se Butros B Ghali
> : ponovno ne izabete za glaqvnog tajnika UN i da li je novi tajnik takodjer u toj
> : Internacionali???
>
> : Paul
rap: Zato sto Americki Zionisti smatraju da je Boutros Boutros Ghali
previse naklonjen Britancima, tj. da je, kao i cjela njegova familija
uostalom, Britanski agent, tj. Anglo i Anglo-Zionista. Kako se izmedju
Americkih Zionista (Rockefeller-Brzezinski doktrina, ciji zastupnik
u Izraelu je bio ubijeni Yitzak Rabin) i Britanije (Kissinger-Temple
Mount Doktrina, ciji zastupnik je Natanyahu) vodi zestoki
obavjestajni,
diplomatski, propagandni, ... rat oko strategije na Bliskom Istoku,
Americki
Zionisti Rockefellerove doktrine smatrali su Boutrosa Ghalija
nepozeljnim.
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Miroslav D Trajkovic wrote:
> I Mas-Pok u Hrvatskoj, koji je po svoj prirodi bio cisto nacionalisticki
> (ne znam da li su i tada rehabilitovali ustase).
Ajde, Trajkovicu, ne pricaj pizdarije kad nemas pojma. Kakav cisto
nacionalisticki pokret. I Savka i Tripalo i ostala ekipa su bili
*komunisti*. Nastupali su pod motom "za ciste racune". Oni su htjeli da se
o novcu koji se zaradi u Hrvatskoj odlucuje u Hrvatskoj, a ne u centrali u
Beogradu. I da se to isto nacelo primjenjuje za sve.
naravno da su im prisili da su bili nacionalisti. Da su komunisti nekim
slucajem bili vjernici, bili bi optuzili maspokovce da su Krista razapeli.
Goran JUKIC
Miroslav D Trajkovic (miro...@ee.usyd.edu.au) wrote:
...
: U Srbiji, Liberalizam Marka Nikezica, koji se vise manje zalagao
: za trzisnu privredu (dakle pro-zapadni).
Greska! Podjednako su bili "liberalni" za ono vrijeme.
Podjednako su se zalagali za trziste. Pitanje trzista
je bilo i to da su svi mislili da daju previse u
drzavne jasle.
: (ne znam da li su i tada rehabilitovali ustase).
Sta znaci ovo "i tada"?
Za "maspoka" je bilo nacionalista koji su se pokusali
slepati uz Savku i Tripala, al ustastva se ne sjecam
ni u talonu.
U Hrvatskoj ima raznih pokusaja da se nesto
ustaskog folklora rehabilitira, cak je i vrli :-/
sa predsjednickog mjesta napravio par imbecilnih poteza,
ali do sada se nije desilo da se ustastvo rehabilitira u
mjeri koliko cetnicki u Srbiji i tzv. R. Srpskoj.
Ovdje se i medju seljacima uglavnom smatra sramotom
pozivati se na NDH.
: Po meni, to je bitna razlika.
E sad koliko ti mozes vjerovati nekom sa ove strane....
tj. bitna razlika jest, ali sorry, nije u korist srpske
demokratske vecine..
G*
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
On 7 Feb 1997, Boris Petrov wrote:
> Juric-Kokic <vko...@jagor.srce.hr> writes:
> >*prvih* demonstracija, ruku vrlo uredno pruzio jedan stricek "iz
> >Paragvaja". :) Jedan od blesavijih poteza. Sto se vrlo brzo pokazalo.
> Nisam razumio ovo o "striceku iz Paragvaja" Mozete li mi
> objasniti/podsjetiti. Mnogo hvala. Boris Petrovcic
To je citat iz Ferala. Tamo na kraju (u humoristickom dijelu) imaju
vijesti iz buducnosti i stalno spominju izvjesnog "zivahnog starcica,
umirovljenog povjesnicara, F.T. (95), drzavljanina Paragvaja." Aluzija na
"velike" Hrvate koji su iz NDH pobjegli u Juznu Ameriku.
Boris Petrov
In <Pine.SOL.3.93.970209...@jagor.srce.hr> Vlatko
Mnogo Vam hvala. Prestala mi je vec poodavno pretplata
na "Feral". Da li znadete da li ga ima negdje u
elektronskoj formi. Isto tako za rijecki "Novi list"?
Hvala unaprijed. Boris
Y Rapido
Po pitanju razaranja RBiH i genocida nad Bosnjackom
nacijom, niti u Hrvatskoj niti u Srbiji ne postoji
neka znacajna opozicija. Tu jednostavno opozicije
nema niti je u znatnoj mjeri bilo tokom 1990-tih
godina.
Nesto te opozicije bilo je u Hrvatskoj -- i to sa
par nesto razlicitih platformi. Znacajna je
iskrena opozicija koju je pruzio Dragoslav Paraga,
General Spegelj, zatim deklarativna (a mozda i
iskrena) opozicija Mesica i Manolica, kao i
Zdravka Tomca, ali, sveukupno one su vise u cjelokupnoj
slici od R Hrvatske eksploatirane vise kao "dekor
demokracije" nego kao bitna komponenta koja ce
na politiku zvanicnog Zagreba znatno utjecati.
Uglavnom su Hrvati uzeli zdravo za gotovo da mocne
medjunarodne snage stoje iza Franje Tudjmana, te su
se tome smjeru pridruzili. Tudjmana je cijelo vrijeme
tokom 1990-tih podrzavalo barem 50% Hrvata u RH --
pogotovo nakon sto je Tudjman pokrenuo rat HV i HVO-a
protiv Armije RBiH tokom 1992, 1993, pa do 1994 --
dok su tzv. "opozicione" stranke sa vise clanstva,
kao HSLS (oko 20-25% glasova), sluzile kao "tampon
sloj" koji je Tudjmanovu hegemoniju de facto i de
jure ustolicio i odrzavao cijelo ovo vrijeme.
Miroslav D Trajkovic
Vlatko Juric-Kokic wrote:
>
> On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Miroslav D Trajkovic wrote:
>
> nacionalisticki pokret. I Savka i Tripalo i ostala ekipa su bili
> *komunisti*. Nastupali su pod motom "za ciste racune". Oni su htjeli da se
> o novcu koji se zaradi u Hrvatskoj odlucuje u Hrvatskoj, a ne u centrali u
> Beogradu. I da se to isto nacelo primjenjuje za sve.
>
> naravno da su im prisili da su bili nacionalisti. Da su komunisti nekim
> slucajem bili vjernici, bili bi optuzili maspokovce da su Krista razapeli.
>
> vko...@r101.com.hr | I have an attitude and |
> vko...@public.srce.hr | I'm not afraid to use it.|
Jesi li apsolutno siguran u to sto govoris. Ja nisam detaljno izucavao
niti Maspok niti liberale, vec se moje znanje bazira vise na
pojedinacnim clancima.
1) Liberalni pokret u srbiji je bio cisto demokratski i trzisno
orijentisan. Nacija nije uopste spominjana. S drufe strane, liberalni
pokret nije ni imao masovnu podrsku, vec je mahom bio podrzavan od
intelektualaca.
2) Parola Maspoka je bila: "da nase pare ne idu niz Savu", zar ne? E sad
mi kazi, kome to idu niz Savu? Idu u Beograd naravno. A ko je u
Beogradu?
Da li je prosecan hrvat vezivao Maspok za ekonomske teorije i trzisnu
ekonimiju ili za nezavisnu drzavu (ovo je kljucno)?
Pazi, liberali nisu nijedan deo Jugoslavije optuzivali da krade Srbiju,
pokret je bio ogranicen (vise manje) na Srbiju, ali nije bilo ni trunke
nacionalizma !
Dalje, sta mislis kako su se Srbi u SRH osecali za vreme Maspoka?
I najzad, ako je pokret bio tako "cist", jel u njemu bilo Srba?
Miroslav
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
On 9 Feb 1997, Boris Petrov wrote:
> na "Feral". Da li znadete da li ga ima negdje u
> elektronskoj formi. Isto tako za rijecki "Novi list"?
Bio je nekakav feral.org, ali od toga nista, jer im se nije dalo to
raditi. Samo na papiru. Novi list isto tako.
This is not America. :)
Orlan Mirkovich
Gospodine Trajkovicu, vi i ja se razilazimo u pogledima na bitne stvari.
1. Liberalni pokert u Srbiji nije ni postojao.
2. Parola Maspoka je bila:"da nase pane ne idu niz Savu" zato sto su nase
pare isle niz Savu u Beograd, koji se igrom slucaja nalazi u Srbiji. Zato
smo se i zaratili. Jer hocemo svoje pare. Da se Beograd nalazi u Hrvatskoj,
onda bi ste vi imali Maspok itd...
Hrvatski *intelektualac* je znao (kao i srpski u kuloarima, ali ga se nije
ticalo). Hrvatski prosjecan covjek je Maspok vezivao za nacionalne osjecaje
(jer je to i bio problem za razliku od Srbije) i TO JE U REDU, ....(tu sada
dolaze psovke). Vi cete mi nakon 45 godina komunizma i rata koji jos uvijek
traje, opet poceti pricu o hrvatskoj krivnji i to na UGLADJEN nacin!
Zaboravi!!!! (ovo je kljucno :-) Trzisna ekonomija i nezavisna drzava
Hrvatska idu bok uz bok, a to sto ce mi netko stalno govoriti:
danasnja(71) nezavisna drzava Hrvatska = NDH = ustasa = nacizam,
uopce me ne dira jer nije istina. Vi cete reci da je istina, a ja ca reci
da nije istina. E, tako je nastao ovaj rat. Vi ste rekli da sam ja ustasa i
da mi je bolje da budem pod vasim protektoratom, ali to kosta. Ja kazem na
hvala! A vi bum!
I naravno da nije bilo Srba u Maspoku! Niti Jugoslavena nije bilo. Njima je
bilo dobro bez Maspoka. Zato ih nije bilo! Kako vi vucete vodu na svoj
mlin! To je nevjerojatno!!!!
Ja, kao Hrvat, sam PONOSAN na hrvatsko proljece.
Ja sam PONOSAN sto je Hrvatska danas nezavisna.
Ja sam PONOSAN sto je Hrvatska danas visepartijska.
Ja sam PONOSAN sto Hrvatska danas ima svoju valutu.
Ja sam PONOSAN sto Hrvatska danas IMA SVOJ JEZIK I POVIJEST.
Ja, kao Hrvat, imam puno stvari za prigovoriti unutrasnjoj situaciji, ali
to nije vas posao.
Ja, kao Hrvat danas, imam dilema, ali ne ove koje vi navodite. Nisu cak ni
'remotely connected' sa Srbima.
Ja, kao Hrvat 71, imao sam dilema, ali ne ove koje vi navodite.
Miroslav D Trajkovic <miro...@ee.usyd.edu.au> wrote in article
<330030...@ee.usyd.edu.au>...
Boris Petrov
"Narodni list", Zadar - 24. sijecnja 1997
"Danajci i koalicije" - Treci dio
Kritika Profacine grupe
Da i Zadar moze biti mjesto narocite politicke vaznosti pokazao je
ovotjedni skup u Domu mladezi koji su njegovi organizatori, dio
utemeljitelja zadarskog Ogranka HDZ-a, nazvali prvim javnim i
demokratskim istupanjem iz maticne stranke. Uvodno slovo
odrzao je bivsi saborski zastupnik Vice Profaca, neformalni
kolovodja HDZ-ovskih nezadovoljnika s tekstom koji je u nekim
dijelovima imao teze kvalifikacije po stranku na vlasti negoli to
imaju istupi opozicijskih pretstavnika. Uostalom Profacin govor
tangirao je upravo one probleme u drustvu koje i opozicija smatra
kljucnim poput suspenzije pravne drzave, forsiranje interesnih
grupa, negativne selekcije kadrova, degradiranja sustava
vrijednosti u drustvu i stupova gradjanskog poretka u cijim
temeljima stoje obezvrijedjeni i ponizeni ucitelj, lijecnik, sudac i
znanstvenik. Razorna kritika Profacine grupe, slobodno se moze
reci, najtemeljitija je dosadasnja kritika vlastite stranke, nakon
Mesic-Manoliceve secesije. I predsjednik Gradskog odbora
HDZ-a Zivko Kolega kritizirajuci grupu koja je, svjesno ili
nesvjesno, "u sluzbi oporbe pod plastem osnivaca HDZ-a", i za
koju bi, smatra, bilo postenije da je osnovala svoju stranku ili se
pridruzila HND-u, priznao je da se ova grupa razisla s programom
i politikom stranke jos 1991. godine. Ostrina istupa zasmetala je
Kolegi i u onomdijelu gdje se kritizira sam predsjednik drzave,
kao zadnja nedodirljiva instancakoju se grupa drznula dovesti u
pitanje zamjedbom kako ovaj "nije na visini zadatka".
Osnivaci vise ne prepoznaju stranku
U cjelini uzevsi cini se kako grupa utemeljitelja HDZ-a s vlastitom
strankom, bolje reci vecinom njene politicke elite, ne simpatizira
se prakticki od godina njezina osnutka, pa je i demisija zadarskog
Izvrsnog vijeca (1991) na celu s predsjednikom Martinom Drazinom
poodavno pokazala na problem u stranci koji je i rak rana njenog
glomaznog mehanizma koji dijelom ne funkcionira i zbog
razocaranja njegovih osnivaca. Sadasnjim istupom utemeljitelja
stranke (5 od 7 osnivaca) definitivno je zavrsilo "herojsko" razdoblje
HDZ-a na cijem je celu bio sadasnji potpisnikistupa Nikola Jaksic,
te tajnici Hrvoje Matanovic i Gojko Pintur, pored vec spomenutog
prvog covjeka izvrsne vlasti Martina Drazine i nekolicine drugih
istaknutih clanova. Profaca bi rekao - istupili su idealisti. Ostavsi u
manjini ovi idealisti, dakle, prepustili su vlast HDZ-ovoj vecini, onim
stranackim kolegama koji su po misljenju Profacine grupe
ODRZALI KJOMUNIZAM ZIVIM U NOVOJ HRVATSKOJ DRZAVI.
Po njihovu misljenju komunisticki model se je prikrio, ucvrstio i u
medjuvremenu zavladao u Hrvatskoj, jeduci njenu supstancu i
proizvodeci bijedu. Proizlazi da je pobijedila ona struja koja se je
kamuflirala HDZ imenom, a da su idealisti morali odstupiti, priznati
poraz i punu restauraciju komunizma, tj. onih koji su samo prividno
izgubili vlast 1990. Profaca je bio decidiran: uspostavom
prokomunistickog mentaliteta u HDZ-u "ugrozen je opstanak
drzave i nacije".
Mozda se nekom pobuna Profacine grupe moze ciniti okasnjelom,
jer su mnoge negativnosti bile vidljive i ranije; ili, pakk, tempiranom
pred skore izbore, u najranjivije vrijeme za svaku stranku. No, za
svaku je stranku odlazak njenih utemeljitelja simptomatican
pokazatelj da su promjene u izvornom programu i ponasanju takve
prirode da vlastitu stranku vise ne prepoznaju ni oni koji su je
osnivali.
Paul Andrej Jurcic
In article <330030...@ee.usyd.edu.au>, miro...@ee.usyd.edu.au says...
>
>Da li je prosecan hrvat vezivao Maspok za ekonomske teorije i trzisnu
>ekonimiju ili za nezavisnu drzavu (ovo je kljucno)?
Zasto ili/ili? Vezao ih je za jedno i drugo jer se trzisna ekonomija nije mogla
ostvariti u ondasnjoj Jugi.
>Pazi, liberali nisu nijedan deo Jugoslavije optuzivali da krade Srbiju,*****
Pa bili su dovoljno pametni da ne izlaze sa apsurdnim tvrdnjama. A kako su se
"preljevala sredstva" to je svima poznato koji to zele znati. Makedonija i BiH
su glasale za izlazak iz Juge premda su bili neto primaoci u tom "preljevanju
sredstava tek kada je Slovenija i Hrvatska to ucinila. Nije im bilo po volji
ali ja ih razumijem. Nisu zeljeli ostati sami sa Srbima.
>Dalje, sta mislis kako su se Srbi u SRH osecali za vree Maspoka?
Lose, je je Maspok prijetio raspadu Jugoslavije, premda je paradoksalno bio
usmjeren da ju ucvrsti reformama ("cisti racuni").
>I najzad, ako je pokret bio tako "cist", jel u njemu bilo Srba?
Pokret nije bio "cist" ali je bio za ciste racune. U njemu je bilo zanemarivo
malo Srba jer oni (Srbi iz Hrvatske) nisu bili za ciste racune.
Paul
>Miroslav
paja baksis
In article <5dqnmf$7...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, bpe...@ix.netcom.co says...
>
DJ:Restauriran Komunizam????Jel to fora za Jeljcina i Ruse da vam kasnije dele
odlikovanja za borbu protiv fasizma??Nekada se to zvalo fasizam i
nacizam.Verovatno je osnivac mislio na to.A to onda nije kritika nego pohvala
Hrvatima.
>"Narodni list", Zadar - 24. sijecnja 1997
>
>"Danajci i koalicije" - Treci dio
>
>Kritika Profacine grupe
>
>Da i Zadar moze biti mjesto narocite politicke vaznosti pokazao je
>ovotjedni skup u Domu mladezi koji su njegovi organizatori, dio
>utemeljitelja zadarskog Ogranka HDZ-a, nazvali prvim javnim i
>demokratskim istupanjem iz maticne stranke. Uvodno slovo
>odrzao je bivsi saborski zastupnik Vice Profaca, neformalni
>kolovodja HDZ-ovskih nezadovoljnika s tekstom koji je u nekim
>dijelovima imao teze kvalifikacije po straza svaku stranku. No, za
Miroslav D Trajkovic
OK, iz navedenih pisama mogu da zakljucim par stvari
1) Maspok se zalagao za ciste racune
/* Dakle mislili su da ih neko krade a vi pogadjajte ko. Samo, po toj
osnovi Slovenci su imali jos vise razloga da se bune, pa se nisu
bunili - verovatno su pametno koristili polozaj najrazvijenije
republike. Dalje, sta mislite ko je gradio hotele po Jadranu, samo
Hrvatska ili Federacija? I trece, i u EU se bogate zemlje stalno bune
jer moraju da dotiraju one siromasne, kog se djavola onda gurate tamo
ako ste za ciste racune?
Inace, sto se SFRJ tice, najbogatija je bila Slovenija,
zatim Vojvodina i Hrvatska, Srbija je verovatno bila u sredini,
siromasni su Crna Gora (mada i oni imaju more, pa je mozda bilo malo
bolje), BiH i Makedonija, dok je Kosovo van konkurencije.
Verovatno su tako isla i davanja. */
2) Maspok se "de facto" zalagao za nezavisnu drzavu, i bio je
jednonacionalan, sto je samo po sebi sumnjivo u visenacionalnoj
sredini (broj Srba + Jugoslovena je sigurno malo manje od 20%, sto je
relativno malo vise nego Hrvata u BiH a apsolutno malo vise vise)
kakva je BILA Hrvatska.
3) Oni ljudi sa ove liste koji su se javili, a verovatno i vecina
hrvata u to vreme smatralo je da su srbi (u SRH) povlasceni.
/* E ovo je vec neobjasnjiva glupost! Vecina Srba u Hravtskoj
je zivela u gradovima, pa bih molio da mi se objasni kakve oni veze
imaju sa "cistim racunima". Ako je Hrvatska davala, davala je ostalim
federalnim jedinicama, kako to da su SAMO HRVATI to osecali po svom
dzepu, a Srbi (iz SRH) nisu ??? */
Miroslav
paja baksis
In article <01bc1856$26069170$ca3e31ca@hermes>, o...@clearfield.co.nz says...
>
>Gospodine Trajkovicu, vi i ja se razilazimo u pogledima na bitne stvari.
>1. Liberalni pokert u Srbiji nije ni postojao.
>
>2. Parola Maspoka je bila:"da nase pane ne idu niz Savu" zato sto su nase
>pare isle niz Savu u Beograd, koji se igrom slucaja nalazi u Srbiji. Zato
>smo se i zaratili. Jer hocemo svoje pare. Da se Beograd nalazi u Hrvatskoj,
>onda bi ste vi imali Maspok itd...
>
DJ:Pa sad imas svoje pare.Nego koji ces moj u clearifield.co.nz?Tamo ne dele tvoje pare nego
neke jebem li ga valjda nz-emske novce.Zasto nisi u Croatiji?Sada ima para ihahaj kolko
oces.Koji se moj mucis po belom svetu il si tu turisticki pa trosis te velike pare koje sada
ostaju tebi umesto beogradskim pljackasima ili poslovno?Javi da znamo.
>Hrvatski *intelektualac* je znao (kao i srpski u kuloarima, ali ga se nije
>ticalo). Hrvatski prosjecan covjek je Maspok vezivao za nacionalne osjecaje
>(jer je to i bio problem za razliku od Srbije) i TO JE U REDU, ....(tu sada
>dolaze psovke). Vi cete mi nakon 45 godina komunizma i rata koji jos uvijek
>traje, opet poceti pricu o hrvatskoj krivnji i to na UGLADJEN nacin!
>Zaboravi!!!! (ovo je kljucno :-) Trzisna ekonomija i nezavisna drzava
>Hrvatska idu bok uz bok, a to sto ce mi netko stalno govoriti:
DJ:Ima jedan stih koji sam cuo u vreme maspoka negde u Lici tamo neke 70 i neke.Znas kako glasi?
Stih visoke literarne poetske vrednosti.'Kamo moja drvenih korica jesil zeljne srpskih
dzigerica'.Prijatno za cuti?Zar ne?
> danasnja(71) nezavisna drzava Hrvatska = NDH = ustasa = nacizam,
>uopce me ne dira jer nije istina. Vi cete reci da je istina, a ja ca reci
>da nije istina. E, tako je nastao ovaj rat. Vi ste rekli da sam ja ustasa i
>da mi je bolje da budem pod vasim protektoratom, ali to kosta. Ja kazem na
>hvala! A vi bum!
>
DJ:Ma kakva istina!Laz bre!Ko kaze da je istina?Lazovi jedni i barabe!To je bila Nezavisna
Drzava Srbija.Preobuceni cetnici u ustaske uniforme i kolju Hrvate za koje kazu da su Srbi.Pu
majke im ga ...lopovi i lazovi.Javna je tajna da su Srbi formirali Jasenovac i klali Hrvate da
bi kompromitovali sve svetlo hrvatsko.Ali nisu uspeli da nas obmanu.Mi istinu znamo! Da!
>I naravno da nije bilo Srba u Maspoku! Niti Jugoslavena nije bilo. Njima je
>bilo dobro bez Maspoka. Zato ih nije bilo! Kako vi vucete vodu na svoj
>mlin! To je nevjerojatno!!!!
>
DJ:Naravno u pravu si!
>Ja, kao Hrvat, sam PONOSAN na hrvatsko proljece.
DJ:Iako si tada kakio u pelene.To je svesnost istorijska.I tvoje tada malo srce je kucalo iz sve
snage za Savku,Tripala i Tudjmana i ostale velikane hrvatskog proleca.
>Ja sam PONOSAN sto je Hrvatska danas nezavisna.
DJ:Tako treba.Ne jebete Nemce ni 1%.
>Ja sam PONOSAN sto je Hrvatska danas visepartijska.
DJ:Da u pravu si.Ko je gradonacelnik Zagreba?
>Ja sam PONOSAN sto Hrvatska danas ima svoju valutu.
DJ:E jebi ga a ti po nz radis za strane novce.Ma vratices se ti u Croatiu prvom prilikom da te
valute i sam zaradjujes.taj uzitak ti niko nece oduzeti.
>Ja sam PONOSAN sto Hrvatska danas IMA SVOJ JEZIK I POVIJEST.
DJ:Pu majke mu ga nisam ni znao da znam Croatski jezik.Citam ga bre ko bukvar i razumem.A nikada
ga nisam ucio.Jeli bre kako ti mene razumes.Jel treba prevodilac?
I koji ti je izmislio pravopis?Svaka cast tom Croatu.Napravio pravopis u pizdu materinu.Jedan
glas jedno slovi pa pisi kako govoris i citaj kako je napisano.Genije!
>
>
Boris Petrov
(My note: Serbian genocidal murderers are training Hutu genocidal
murderers - what a story!! I am sure that French government
brought them together; France has been active accomplice to two
genocides at the same time - in Bosnia/Croatia and Ruanda.
Also note that ALL borders in this whole area of Africa are
completely arbitrary - made by European colonialists. There is a
panick now - in France, in UN and in Africa that these artificial
and unnatural borders will start to be changed now in many
places - just as the "Yugoslavia" concoction finally blew away -
despite West's support of Serbia's aggression and genocide.)
NYT - February 12, 1997
In Zaire's Unconventional War, Serbs Train Refugees for Combat
By Howard W. French
KISANGANI, Zaire -- Every morning, from an airport at the edge
of this crumbling city, Yugoslav jets with Ukrainian pilots take off
with a scream, headed east toward a huge, shifting war zone,
bombing anything that moves in the impenetrable forest below.
On the ground at the airport, Serbian trainers with tattoos and
shaved heads drill members of an elite Zairian unit, showing them
how to break down and clean the new mounted machine guns and
shoulder-fired rockets that the Serbs have supplied to Zaire in
defiance of an international arms embargo.
Zairian rebels supported by neighboring Rwanda and Uganda
have declared this city, Zaire's third-largest, as their next strategic
target. In an effort to blunt the rebel advance, Zairian government
forces with little appetite for battle have distributed assault rifles
and mortar charges by the planeful to Hutu refugees from
neighboring Rwanda.
Some of the Hutu are militia members who organized mass
killings of members of their home country's Tutsi minority in 1994,
while others are former members of the Rwandan army, which
was defeated by the Tutsi-led forces now in power in Rwanda.
The Rwandan Hutu and a few hundred mercenaries recruited in
haste from a handful of European and African countries form the
backbone of the Zairian government fighting force in what by any
standard has to be one of Africa's least conventional wars.
Zaire's own soldiers, after blazing a trail of looting, rape and
death from the Rwandan border zone, which they fled in November
when the rebellion against President Mobutu Sese Seko began,
remain twitchy and virtually useless in combat and are mostly
left to guard this city.
Because Kisangani has been sacked by unpaid Zairian army
troops twice already in this decade, the population is wary.
Given this mistrust, few soldiers dare circulate in town alone,
despite the assault rifles they wear slung over their shoulders.
"You've got a bit of everything here," said one international aid
worker with long experience in Zaire. "Hutu who have
participated in genocide, Serbs who are most probably war
criminals and, on the other side, Tutsi-controlled forces that
are trying to pull off a genocide of their own."
Credible witnesses, from church workers to captured rebels,
say Tutsi -- the predominant ethnic group among the Zairian
rebels in this region -- have been hunting down young Hutu men
as the rebels have advanced inexorably across the country.
These witnesses said rebels swept into the small town of
Shabunda the other day, encircled as many of the 40,000 or
so Rwandan refugees as they could, separated out the young
Hutu men and machine-gunned an unknown number. The
others were simply allowed to go.
Senior Zairian army officers gave separate accounts of the
"confession" of a captured rebel sentinel whom they identified
as Matthieu Bafanga. They said he told them two days ago
that he had been paid $450 to gather information on the
movements of Hutu refugees through east-central Zaire.
There are as many as 300,000 Rwandans stranded in Zaire.
Most are ordinary men, women and children, but it is widely
believed that there are also thousands of former Hutu militiamen
and soldiers. Many of these people already risk death from
starvation, dehydration and disease, but for their pursuers, that
is not enough.
"The goal of the Rwandan government, and the reason they
have supported this rebellion, is that they are determined to
exterminate the Hutu fighters for fear that one day they will
come back for revenge," said one longtime European resident
who once fought as a mercenary here and maintains contacts in
the war zone.
The rebellion began with a group of Tutsi who have lived in
Zaire for centuries. Since then, Laurent Kabila, a lifelong rebel
from faraway Shaba Province, has assumed leadership and
successfully expanded the force to include other traditional
enemies of Mobutu, Zaire's longtime dictator.
If Zaire's insurrection, which has made impressive gains in
recent days, has become a bid for outright power by Kabila, it
also remains a continuation of Rwanda's civil war in a new
theater, the forested heart of Zaire.
And for Zaire's embattled government, led for 31 years by
Mobutu, who is simultaneously fighting advanced cancer, this
war is most of all a desperate struggle to hang on to power.
At the airport here -- where the grim Serbian trainers were
sweating profusely through their attempts to train Zairian
commandos, who often had no clue as to how to use the new
weapons -- an officer made no attempt to minimize the army's
problems.
"The enemy is hitting us in so many places that it is very
difficult for me to say where the front is," said Lt. Col. Nufuta
B. Kasonga, who traced a spider web of rebel movements with
his finger on a map. "The entire east of the country is affected,
and they seem to be able to push wherever they want to. What
I can tell you is that there is no way that an African rebellion
could achieve all of this by itself."
Kasonga, like the political authorities in the capital, Kinshasa,
insists that Kabila's rebels have been heavily assisted by the
armies of Rwanda, Uganda and, to a lesser extent, Burundi. In
recent days, Washington has officially come around to this view,
publicly warning those countries to stop destabilizing Zaire.
Many of the recent battlegrounds, in towns like Bafwasende,
northeast of Kisangani, have been strongholds of opposition to
the government for three decades.
Earlier insurrectionists, known as the Simbas, were chased by
Belgian mercenaries through the same forests and bombed from
the same skies by CIA-contracted Cuban pilots, veterans of the
Bay of Pigs invasion.
While some Zairian officers spoke with determination about
eventually winning a war that they knew they were losing, others,
who insisted on anonymity, were far more grim. They bemoaned
the undisciplined troops, a corrupt and discredited government
and a population that in many areas has been cooperating with
the rebels.
"There is a grand complicity between the people in most of these
areas and the rebels," said one senior officer, who shrugged as he
spoke of the long odds of his cause. "We don't get any intelligence
from them, and many of them are hunters who have no problem
picking up weapons against us.
"After what the government and the army have done to the
people in this country, who can blame them?"
A second officer, speaking in resignation, said winning the war
was already beyond this army: "It is true when they say our
soldiers are not motivated. They haven't been paid and haven't
been led. The only way out of this now is for the government to
make some gesture."
Suggestions that the government negotiate its way out of this
crisis have been angrily rejected until now. At the same time,
the political system has never been more feeble.
When the opposition called a national strike for Monday to
demand the resignation of Mobutu's prime minister, Kengo wa
Dondo, every major city in Zaire, including Kisangani, was
closed for business.
Foreign diplomats and Zairian military and political analysts
here say that if Kisangani falls to the rebels -- a prospect that
some consider likely -- the government will fall and Zaire will
dissolve into chaos.
People close to the Zairian military say precautions are
already being taken for a last stand to defend this city. They
say that if the threat to Kisangani materializes, mercenaries in
the northeast of the country led by Christian Tavernier, a former
Belgian officer who has taken part in numerous mercenary
adventures here in the last three decades, will be recalled to
mount the city's final defense.
For some, though, the real danger to Kisangani, where few
support the government and many already hate the army,
comes from within.
Since early in his rule, Mobutu has deliberately kept his army
weak and divided, so that it could never threaten his
personalized system of power. Whenever the dictator
encountered a threat to his rule, he was able to rely on foreign
allies, from the United States, Belgium and France to Morocco
and Senegal, to help put down the trouble.
With the loss of the strategic importance that Zaire enjoyed
throughout the cold war, the country also lost the military
training and assistance that outside powers once openly
competed to provide.
As a result, in the recent fighting the army has spent nearly
as much energy chasing deserting units that were pillaging
Zairian towns as it has confronting its battlefield adversaries.
"It is too late to start training people in a country where the
army has no tradition of fighting," said one foreign military
expert. "At the first sign of trouble, those soldiers that resist
looting fire off all of their rounds in the air, strip off their
uniforms and run away."
In recent days, the few commercial aircraft that stop in
Kisangani and Kindu, the only major airports controlled by the
government in the east, have been crowded by the families of
soldiers who, sensing the rapid approach of trouble, have
been fleeing to the capital, Kinshasa. Even as they carry their
families' belongings on board, many cling nervously to their
rifles.
The army is feared more for the internal threat it poses. That
was nearly realized last week when a soldier who was involved
in a deal for diamonds shot and killed a pregnant woman. That
night, hundreds of angry people marched on the governor's
home, and witnesses said many of them were shouting, "We
want Kabila!"
"All it would take is for a few bad soldiers to start acting up
here and this place will go up in smoke," said one longtime
resident. "The rebels probably can't bite off something as big
as Kisangani yet. But if things go wrong here, the population
themselves would become rebels overnight."
<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>
Darko Bubic
On 11 Feb 1997, Orlan Mirkovich wrote:
> Ja, kao Hrvat, sam PONOSAN na hrvatsko proljece.
> Ja sam PONOSAN sto je Hrvatska danas nezavisna.
> Ja sam PONOSAN sto je Hrvatska danas visepartijska.
> Ja sam PONOSAN sto Hrvatska danas ima svoju valutu.
> Ja sam PONOSAN sto Hrvatska danas IMA SVOJ JEZIK I POVIJEST.
> Ja, kao Hrvat, imam puno stvari za prigovoriti unutrasnjoj situaciji, ali
> to nije vas posao.
> Ja, kao Hrvat danas, imam dilema, ali ne ove koje vi navodite. Nisu cak ni
> 'remotely connected' sa Srbima.
> Ja, kao Hrvat 71, imao sam dilema, ali ne ove koje vi navodite.
Niste li vi jednom spomenuli da i niste nikakav Hrvat?
Darko
LIBERATOR
Americans, I fear for you and I.
Please do me a favor, pick up a book called "World Orders, Old and New",
by Noam Chomsky. Thanks.
If you knew what the future was bringing, you would get a gun and
baracade yourself in your house from the government. Our freedom is
deeply in trouble. Greed is what's running this country(as if you havent
noticed yet), and those whose lives arent "productive means" to the
rich, are going to be removed or enslaved.
The government is purposely being lenient on criminals and letting them
out of jail so they cause more tension in society which gives the
government a reason to stomp down and cast more laws giving them more
control over us. And the fear generated causes us to separate from each
other more and more. The court systems have purposely been flawed, this
was planned years ago. Believe it?
The plan entails severing the people using media(press, tv, radio,
newspapers) and creating extreme tension between the races of which
there eventually is going to be a major riot, or revolution. They know
by letting criminals out on "technicalities" they will re-commit the
crimes they previously had, and this will build up, the general public
will become extremely fearful, and the general public allows their
rights to be retracted by the government thinking that the laws that
they cast will bind the criminals, which clearly will not. The laws have
only one purpose, to get you to a point where you cannot defend yourself
when the government wants to take direct control over your life. Where
you go, what you do, when you do it, and if they can what you believe.
Believe me? Please, for your sake, do....
How could you not? Look at technology, how it has skyrocketed. Now why
has'nt society healed, why hasnt the government used what they know to
heal those who cant heal themselves? Because its not profitable.
Are there ethics to dominating those who cannot assume a profitable
life?
Should the rich man care about the poor man? DOES HE? Look at our
society and there is your answer.
Those who could not excel in school, and achieve a high academic
standing, are the ones the government doesnt care about. They will not
be "Profitable entitys to ANYONE", so the government doesnt care about
them, and quite frankly see's them as a hinderance. They bogg the
profitable machine, and are a hassle to the rich corporate leaders(who
are the government)who only want to see themselves get more money than
their corporate buddy next to him. But what about the guy who didnt get
the college education to get the high paying job, the guy who doesnt
want to hurt anyone. Couldnt they sacrafice just a little of their
massive incomes to give a little more money to the lower guy on the
totem pole?
I would think if they believed in GOD they would. Ethically it would be
the right thing to do to give $10,000 more a year to the guy that makes
$20,000 dollars a year. But that $10,000 has to come off of his
$1,004,000 a year, and that would maybe cost him a vacation out of the 3
he takes a year. See what I mean about ethics, if their were some, these
guys wouldnt be doing what they have been doing to the middle class.
These corporate leaders(government) quite frankly I have found don't
believe in GOD, in any form such as I could see. They firmly believe
that their profits make them SUPERIOR, and they should have control of
the world. If you are not profitable in your life to someone, some
corporation, some business, you eventually will not have a place in this
world. The Corporate Structure, will have so many laws in place, that
you will not be able to move without permission. Believe it? Please
start. Its happening.
Population control. A highly desired element of these industry leaders.
All of the post WWII wars were population control wars. Look at them,
you know its true. Think about it. Korea? Viet Nam? Why?
How can the average American citizen have absolute proof that we need to
be engaged in combat to protect "our interest's" (which are corporate
interests, a possible threat to their profits)? We cant, and the "High
Elite" don't want us to be capable of that. Shit, we wouldnt fight if we
knew that it wasnt right to be in battle just for someones profitable
interests. It wouldnt really be ethical, would it?
Anyways, I could go on and on, but if you want hardcore proof, read this
book, it's hot off the presses, and I wouldnt be suprised if Noam
Chomsky life is soon in danger.
Again, "World Orders, Old and New", by Noam Chomsky. He is a professor
at MIT(Massachusettes Institute of Technology). Do yourself two favors,
read this book, and be nice to someone you wanted to be mean to.
Boris Petrov
Montenegrin Church...
Taken from the Independent Montenegrin Weekly... "Monitor"
The Christmas Eve Celebration in Cetinje
A NEW HEAD OF THE MONTENEGRIN
AUTOCEPHALOUS CHURCH
Thousands of believers attended the Christmas Eve celebration
(orthodox Christmas Eve is on the 6th of January) in the old
Montenegrin capital of Cetinje to support the Montenegrin
Autocephalous Church and its new head, Bishop Miras Dedeic. The
Montenegrin Church was annulled by Yugoslav King Karadjordjevic in the
early twenties and its properties were taken by the Serbian Orthodox
Church. Montenegrins reestablished its Church a few years ago. The
first metropolitan was Antonije Abramovic, who died last year.
The Montenegrin Church, which is orthodox as well, has many opponents
in the Serbian Church which still holds confiscated Montenegro's
churches and monasteries. But, properties are not the only reasons for
the antagonism between two churches. By orthodox canon, autocephalous
churches can exist only in sovereign countries. Neither the Serbian
Church nor most of the Belgrade politicians want Montenegro to be
independent. But, many Montenegrins are for that. That is why they
came to Cetinje in large numbers to support new head of the Church.
Bishop Dedeic came to Montenegro after spending many years of service
in the Greek Orthodox Church in Rome. He told Monitor that he would do
as much as he could to strengthen the Montenegrin Church and to get
its properties back but stressed that his main mission is to propagate
tolerance among all religions in Montenegro. This Church will be open
to people of all religious denominations, not only to Montenegrins but
also to Muslims, Albanians, Croats and Serbs.
......................................................................
......................................................................
.....................................................................
Darko Sukovic
Ivo brate, Mujo rece
sto je bilo zaboravi!
Mujo, brate, Ivo zbori
Slozimo se u ljubavi!
Jer nam majka Bosna i
Hrvatska slika raja.
Njena proslost, krv i jexik
Nas ko sveta veza spaja;
Zar prolijevat bratsku krvcu
Zato sto nas vjera djeli?
-Musa Cazim Catic
Boris Petrov
An interesting site with articles from free Croatian newspapers
(in English and Croatian)
http://www.cdsp.neu.edu/info/students/marko/croind.html
Boris Petrov
Oslobodjenje...Jovan Divjak...forgotten man
Excerpts from an interview with General
Jovan Divjak, the top Serb officer in the
Bosnian Army: (Un)suitable son of the
people
by Rajko Zivkovic, Oslobodenje-Svijet, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina,
2/8/96
General Jovan Divjak joined the Bosnian Territorial Defense at the
beginning of the war. Today he is the deputy Chief of Staff of the
Bosnian Army and one of a few Serb officers in the top ranks of the
Army.
What do you think about the present situation?
I don't think that this is a peaceful situation. This behavior was
imposed on Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats by the Europe. On the other
hand, it is obvious that certain things are not functioning. We have
had some incidents on the territory controlled by HVO [Bosnian Croat
militia]. Still, the bulk of activity reminds one of peace. The war
has been interrupted, although the fighting readiness remains on the
highest level.
Mostar, like Sarajevo, was supposed to be a center for the
reintegration of the common life and the multinational nature of
Bosnia-Hercegovina. What are the biggest obstacles?
The majority of those coming to Bosnia come unprepared. I say this
although I have respect for these people. They accept jobs which are
very risky; they even risk their lives. Just remember the
assassination attempt on [the European Union appointed administrator
of Mostar] Kocshnick. Koschnick, as well as some earlier peace
moderators in Bosnia-Hercegovina, has received the informations about
the situation in Bosnia from the enemies of this country. For example,
[European Union peace moderator Thorwald] Stoltenberg spent some 12
years in Belgrade, and his informations and knowledge about Bosnia
came from the people who later attacked Bosnia-Hercegovina. Koschnick
was frequently updated on the situation by the people close to Zagreb,
people whose goal is the division of Bosnia. It is an illusion to talk
about the return of Serbs to the Neretva valley if 200,000 Serbs don't
return to Krajina at the same time and Bosniacs and Croats do not
return to Banja Luka. The situation is complicated and a foreigner
might have a hard time understanding it. It is an illusion to expect
the return of Serbs to Mostar until Bosniacs begin to return to Foca
[a town in eastern Bosnia].
Do you have reliable data about the number of Serbs living in the four
Sarajevo municipalities still under the control of Karadzic's forces:
in Ilijas, Ilidza, Vogosca and Hadzici?
The Bosnian Army is not concerned with those questions. Even the
government doesn't have reliable data. Chris Janowski stated that
there are approximately 40,000 Serbs in those municipalities. Out of
curiosity, from conversations with foreign journalists who visited
Grbavica, I found out that the original inhabitants comprise only 20
percent of total population in those four municipalities. The others
moved in during the war. I am confident that the majority of those 20
percent want to stay in their homes.
What do you think about recent Mr. Izetbegovic's statement that all
soldiers should leave the suburbs which are scheduled to come under
the Federation control and that only civilians should remain?
According to the Dayton agreement, only civilian authorities can
remain. Therefore, all soldiers must be demobilized and remain in the
suburbs as civilians. Of course, the [Federation] authorities must not
tolerate anyone who took part in the genocide. For example, current
mayors, Perisic and Prstojevic, shouldn't wait for the Federation
authorities, since they incited genocide against Bosniacs and Serbs
who remained in Sarajevo. It is probably unnecessary to keep repeating
that anyone not guilty of war crimes should stay. Karadzic and
Krajisnik use in their propaganda only the second part of the
sentence. Of course, if that propaganda is successful, it might
provoke an exodus of Serbs from those territories, which will probably
prod the Serbs from Sarajevo center to leave as well. This would turn
Sarajevo into an ethnically pure city and that is against my ideals.
As a soldier and a fighter since the first days of the aggression
against Bosnia-Hercegovina, do you think that the goals with which you
started the struggle have been fulfilled?
In this moment the most important thing is to preserve, through
political means , the multiethnic nature of Bosnia-Hercegovina. The
Bosnian government and the Army were unrealistic, although patriotic,
in their feeling that Bosnia would almost immediately be constituted
in its internationally recognized borders, on the rivers Drina, Sava
and Una. Still, the platform of the Bosnian presidency from 1992 gave
an impetus for the preservation of the unitary Bosnia. Our expectation
that the world, Europe and the United States would help in the
realization of that idea was at the time unrealistic. However,
Karadzic said in the Bosnian parliament that one people would
disappear from these territories. That people [Bosnian Muslims or
Bosniacs], however, has survived. The war has been interrupted.
Nevertheless, the struggle for the territorial unity of Bosnia
continues, this time with political means.
In this moment, Bosnia-Hercegovina is still divided into three
entities. If the Palestinians have fought for 45 years for their
freedom and autonomy, if Vietnam fought for 30 years against the
greatest world power, than it makes sense that the people with secular
and civic orientation will continue their struggle for
Bosnia-Hercegovina in its historical borders.
What do you as the Deputy Chief of Staff think about the fact that,
besides you, there are no Serbs in the Army Staff? The only Serb in
the command of the First Corps, Rajko Mihajlovic, has recently been
dismissed.
Since the second year of the war, the Bosnian authorities accepted
Karadzic's claim that the common life of Bosniacs and Serbs is
impossible. That influenced the treatment of the Serb Army members. It
should probably be mentioned that, for example, in June, 1992, 18
percent of members of the Army Staff were Croats and 12 percent were
Serbs. Today in the Bosnian Army there is one percent of Serbs and one
percent of Croats. I discussed that problem with the Chief of Staff,
Delic, and president Izetbegovic. Unfortunately, I must say that their
explanation of a small number of non-Bosniacs in the Army was that
other soldiers supposedly don't trust Serb soldiers.
I think that that is not true; during all four years of this war there
were no problems between Serb, Croat and Bosniac soldiers on the
front. I witnessed their tolerance, and respect for each other.
However, as soon as you go up the chain of command to commanders of
platoons and battalions, a different attitude toward Serb and Croat
soldiers is noticeable.
Unfortunately, there was a time when Serb soldiers were not allowed to
fight. They worked on trenches and other engineering jobs. It was
feared that they would be killed from behind. The situation was most
difficult during 1993 and 1994. I know of cases where Serb unit
commanders were dismissed; that shows that Karadzic's methods have
been accepted by the Bosnian Army. Practically that is the same as
ethnic cleansing. I would like to remind you that five months ago Mr.
Siber and I, based on Mr. Izetbegovic's request, were put on a list
for retirement. In the present situation, as the Deputy Chief of
Staff, I have no authority at all. I have been offered by president
Izetbegovic to retire or go to the embassy in Paris, supposedly
because of my knowledge of French; alternatively I was to stay in the
Army but on the sidelines.
Representatives of the Serb citizens [living under control of the
Muslim-Croat Federation] are not taking part in the present round of
negotiations about the future of Bosnia-Hercegovina. I have to remind
that in 1993, my participation in various government and military
delegations was questioned by the Serb side; they refused to talk to a
man who, according to them, had betrayed the Serb people. For them, I
was a war criminal. At the time, the Chief of Staff and Prime
minister, Mr. Silajdzic, were saying that mine and general Siber's
participation in the negotiations was unconditional. Today,
unfortunately, all three delegations discussing the future of
Bosnia-Hercegovina are completely ethnically pure.
It has been said that you are a general for show. Do you really feel
that way?
I've been aware for a long time that there is a bit of truth in every
message of this kind. I said once to a foreign journalist that I felt
like a flower arrangement. Of course someone has to be a flower
arrangement too. But if I'm here only for temporary use, than it is
shameful.[General Divjak is often used as a proof of the multiethnic
character of the Bosnian Army]
The greatest weakness of my Army Staff is that it has never included
me in the decision making process. It's been said in the General
Command that I am one of the best educated and most capable soldiers
in the Bosnian Army; unfortunately, the situation is different in
practice. They tell me that I'm a "shop window general," as my friend
Duro Kozar wrote in Oslobodenje. I must say that I enjoy working with
people and that I like to be able to offer some assistance. Therefore
I do try to solve problems with which people come to me. Things to do
with culture, sport, youngsters, children, orphans, shehid [martyr for
faith in Islam] families; I've been preoccupied with problems of this
kind in the war.
Why does the Chief of Staff, general Rasim Delic, exclude you from the
decision making process in the Army? How do you feel as a general who
doesn't make decisions about military problems?
It is very unpleasant. I was even directly offended in certain
situations. I think that, based on my education and experience, I can
contribute and help find better solutions. However, since I am an Army
member, my opinion is my personal thing. Hopefully, the Chief of Staff
will realize that he has missed an opportunity he shouldn't have.
My opinion is that there is no confidence in me. Unfortunately, I have
a feeling that someone is asking himself:"Why hasn't he gone to the
other side?" My son has been asked that question as well; he was my
escort for a while and this happened when he was arrested and sent to
dig trenches. They swore at his mother and wanted to know why his
father was in Sarajevo instead of in Pale [Bosnian Serb unofficial
capital]. I think that, even today, some people wonder how come Divjak
had enough courage to stay here when he could have finished with a
bullet in the back of his head. I don't think that anyone can give me
a reasonable justification regarding why I'm not allowed to carry out
the duties for the benefit of Bosnia-Hercegovina.
Your own Army arrested you on one occasion. You refused to reveal the
real reasons for your arrest. Is now a good time to talk about this?
I said once that I was arrested. I was supposed to stay in jail for
seven days. Instead I was imprisoned for 27 days. There is a document
which says that I was allegedly arrested because of collaboration with
the Cetniks [nationalist Serbs], weapons trade and so on. It should be
emphasized that I was treated extremely well during the first two days
in jail; they detained me in order to protect me but, even in jail,
some veteran fighters from the Konjic area were threatening me and
accusing me of preventing liberation of Glavaticevo and Bjelimici.
In jail, I was on a hunger strike for 4 days but no one payed
attention. I was interrogated for some 5-6 days. Then, on the seventh
day, they told me that I was free to go, but that I couldn't go back
to Sarajevo because I was in danger from Juka [Prazina]; allegedly he
wanted to abduct me and keep me as a hostage.
What was my most painful experience from that period? On 12 or 14
December, 1992, president Izetbegovic visited Neretvica, actually the
village of Parsovici near Neretvica, where I was detained; I was told
to go to the dining room so that the president could see me.
Naturally, I refused. If the president didn't find it suitable to
visit a man who had risked his life, then I wasn't willing to go out
to the dining room and see the president. Let me remind you that I was
near Izetbegovic during the decisive moments in Dobrovoljacka
[Volunteer] Street at the beginning of the war.
I asked Izetbegovic on one occasion why he had not wanted to see me in
jail. He said that he had had unflattering information about me at the
time. And then he said that I was in jail for only three to four days.
Actually, as I said, I was in jail for 27 days.
Although I was the Deputy Chief of Staff at the time, nobody bothered
to organize my transport over the airport runway in an UNPROFOR
vehicle [before the completion of a tunnel running under the airport
runway, the only connection of Sarajevo with the outside world went
over the runway, in full view of Serb snipers]. As all other soldiers
and civilians I had to run the full length of the runway. I later
asked Halilovic whether he had doubted in me. He said he hadn't. I
don't know if he was honest with me. Later, one of the men who had
arrested me boasted that he was behind that. I have his name as well
as the name of a man who told me about that. But, that will have to
wait for another time.
The founding of a first Serb battalion was announced in Tuzla almost a
year ago. It was even announced that Momcilo Duric was supposed to be
the commander of that unit. However, the battalion has never been
formed. According to some informations, general Muslimovic is
responsible for that. Why wasn't the battalion formed?
Momcilo Duric used to be a battery commander; today he is on a lower
position in the Tuzla garrison headquarters. Bosnia-Hercegovina is a
multinational state; therefore it should have a multinational army
too. I've been thinking about what would happen if such a unit were to
be sent to the front. Serb soldiers would fight Serb soldiers on the
other side. I think that the common army of all Bosniacs, Serbs and
Croats is a much better solution than the formation of separate
national units and armies.
A number of municipalities in western Bosnia have been thoroughly
ethnically cleansed. Was western Bosnia liberated or was it actually
occupied?
As eastern Bosnia was occupied by the army of republic srpska and
military units from Serbia and Montenegro, in the same way the
"liberation" of municipalities in western Bosnia (which have majority
Serb population) is actually an occupation if one has in mind that
both the Serbs and Bosniacs cannot return to their homes on that
territory. It was simply occupied by another state. The Dayton
agreement deadline for departure of foreign fighters has expired.
However, some volunteers from FR Yugoslavia are still in Karadzic's
army and some Croatian army members have been transferred to HVO.
Today, on the territory of Bosnia-Hercegovina, there are several
armies: the Bosnian Army, HVO, republic srpska army, foreign armies,
IFOR... In that context, what is the future of the Bosnian Army?
The documents from Dayton are one thing and what happens in practice
is another. The Dayton agreement accepts the existence of the Federal
Army and republic srpska army. Therefore , first, it is necessary to
establish the Federal Army as a common Army of Croats and Bosniacs; it
should also be accepted by other nationalities. The Bosnian presidency
is supposed to be in charge of these two armies but, in practice, they
are bound to encounter problems. I don't expect that a common army
will be formed in a near future, simply because the western part of
the state is closly entwined with Croatia and the eastern one with
Serbia. Therefore, I don't expect to see a unified army for a long
time.
According to you, who are the greatest criminals on the Bosnian
territory?
The basic responsibility for the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina lies on the
Army Staff of the former Yugoslav Peoples Army. It tried to influence
the transformation of political relations in Yugoslavia. That shows
that there was a military takeover, although the Army stayed in the
background. Milosevic was the main actor in this coup. It is a fact
that the Yugoslav Army put its potential in the service of the idea of
greater Serbia on the line Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag [towns in
Croatia]. Draskovic and Seselj [Serbian nationalist politicians] also
supported this line as a western border of greater Serbia. They are
also responsible in front of their own people in spite of Draskovic's
about face during the war. He supported the idea that Bosniacs and
Serbs cannot live together. His novel "Knife" gave a false picture of
interethnic relations in Bosnia-Hercegovina. As far as Croats are
concerned, the main culprit is a man who said in Paris that the Muslim
nation is a fabrication of the communist system, and that it was used
to disrupt Croat-Serb relations. Individual war criminals are only
exponents of a greater Croatian and greater Serbian policies. The
Hague knows about them. On the Croatian side, there are Blaskic,
Kordic and others. Of course they are also on the Bosniac side.
The most brutal in all this was Mladic; his orders, like the one from
May, 1992, "aim at Velusici (Velesici); there aren't many Serbs
there," or the one "shoot in their bodies, blow up their brains," show
that he is a monster. Unfortunately, he wasn't the only one.
Certain paramilitary formation within the Bosnian Army as well as the
extremists in HVO also committed crimes.
Regarding HVO, I am certain that everything was politically organized.
In Hercegovina, HVO committed a crime against people and against
history.
Since no one has been sentenced for war crimes yet, I don't want to
brand anyone with that accusation. I did say that the members of the
Bosnian army had also committed crimes. At the beginning of June,
1992, a five member Ristovic family was killed in Sarajevo. The Chief
of Staff said at the time that the culprits would be found within 24
hours. He knew who was guilty for that crime six hours later but,
unfortunately, he didn't react. I am sorry that he didn't react
appropriately. That would have helped to maintain the multinational
nature of Bosnia-Hercegovina. Paramilitary formations in Sarajevo used
to decide on their own, actually individuals in those units, whether
someone was an informant for the Serb side. The Bosnian Army did
everything in its power to prevent vengeance among the soldiers who
had lost their loved ones.
All top people in the Bosnian Army, General Delic and you personally,
as well as president Izetbegovic, knew about what Caco, Celo and other
commanders of different paramilitary armies did. What do you think now
about that sort of "tolerance"?
First, I should say that Mr. Pejanovic, the president of the Serb
Civic Council and the president of the Commission for protection of
the constitutional order also knew about that. Pejanovic had data
about the missing and did nothing about it. The question is why all
those responsible for the destiny of Bosnia-Hercegovina failed to
react. Mr. Miro Lazovic was among those who publicly reacted to the
murder of four Croats and a Serb woman in Hrasno. I am not trying to
justify Army's nor president's behavior. On May 27, 1993, I sent a
letter to Mr. president and gave him a detailed description of what
was going on with Caco. He called me and we talked for about ten
minutes. He said that he would take steps to rectify the situation.
The conclusion was that, at that moment, Caco and those like him
weren't dangerous for the president and the Bosnian government. The
moment the president and the government felt endangered they reacted.
On the other hand those units were not paramilitary armies, but legal
formations and a part of the Bosnian Army. The responsibility for
their actions falls on the Army Staff and the Presidency.
Translated on 2/29/96
Boris Petrov
Dario Kordic, a War Criminal Indicted by
the Hague Tribunal, Lives Undisturbed in
Zagreb
by Ivan Violic
Globus, Zagreb, Croatia, July 12 1996
On Monday, July 8, 1996, around noon, Dario Kordic left a building at
26
Gornjanska street, in Tresnjevka, Zagreb, together with his two
children in order
to escort his guest to a car, Opel Vectra with Herceg-Bosna (town of
Grude)
plates, which was parked in front of the building. Unidentified guest
left soon
afterwards, while Kordic remained in front of the building, playing
with his son
Darko and daughter Marija.
He didn't notice when Globus photographer took his picture, nor did we
notice
any type of tightened security in the area. True, during those two
hours which
our reporter spent in Gornjanska Street, Military Police patrol passed
several
times in front of the building. But that probably had nothing to do
with Kordic.
Dario Kordic's presence in Zagreb demonstrates that Croatian
authorities can
reach him. Hence, according to the law about the co-operation with the
Hague
Tribunal for War Crimes, the Croatian authorities should arrest Kordic
and send
him to the Hague.
The public has been informed that Kordic had been indicted by the
International
War Crimes Tribunal for "political, racial and religious persecution of
Bosnian
Muslims in the Lasva river valley in central Bosnia". In the same group
with
Kordic, the International Tribunal issued indictments against Tihomir
Blaskic,
Mario Cerkez, Ivica Santic, Pero Skopljak and Zlatko Aleksovski.
So far, only Tihomir Blaskic, General in the Croatian Army and Croatian
Defense Council, who had voluntarily extradited himself, has appeared
in the
Hague. Zlatko Aleksovski was arrested several weeks ago in Split.
Until now, there was no reliable information about the presence of
other
individuals indicted for war crimes on the Croatian territory. It seems
that even
the Foreign Affairs MInistry lacked reliable information about that. In
June, it
sought from other competent Ministries information whether "two
individuals
[were] currently on the Croatian territory in order to inform the Hague
Tribunal
about that."
According to the Foreign affairs Ministry spokesperson, Vanja Moric,
the role of
the Ministry is to implement state policies and the law about the
co-operation
with the Hague, according to which "the Croatian government is
responsible for
the co-operation with the Hague Tribunal".
Minister Mate Granic on several occasions spoke about the Croatian
obligations
with respect to the Hague Tribunal, and at a recent conference in
Florence in
Italy, which took place in mid June, he said that "those individuals
indicted by
the Tribunal which happen to be on the Croatian soil will be arrested".
What Does the Law Say?
Therefore, the Foreign Affairs Ministry, as well as the Ministry of
Defense and
Police do not know that Dario Kordic is currently in Zagreb, i.e. on
the Croatian
territory. It seems that in the Public Prosecutor's Office is not aware
of that,
since they were surprised when we asked them to comment Kordic's
presence in
Zagreb!
Zlatko Kuretic, the spokesperson of the Ministry for Internal Affairs,
couldn't
comment Kordic's presence in Zagreb for Globus. He suggested that we
contact
judicial authorities.
Constitutional law about the co-operation between the Republic of
Croatia and
the International Criminal Tribunal which was passed on April 19, 1996,
states
that the District court judge can order the arrest of a person indicted
by the
International Tribunal, while the arrest is carried out by the police.
Article 13 of the law specifies that "the investigating magistrate
decides about the
International Tribunal request for urgent arrest".
The arrests should be conducted by the Police even without a warrant if
"an
international warrant has been issued for the accused".
"Police must immediately bring the accused to the District
investigating
magistrate who decides whether the accused should be kept in custody or
released," states the law which was passed in the Parliament almost
unanimously.
The Kordic family has moved to the recently built building on
Tresnjevka in
Zagreb, after the indictment against Kordic had been issued by the
International
tribunal. They live on the fourth floor, in the apartment number 23.
Obviously, this is a temporary shelter for Dario Kordic, whose fate
will be
decided by the highest Croatian officials. Clash between Ministers
Granic
[Foreign Affairs] and Susak [Defense] is caused by the disagreement
regarding
the co-operation with the Hague tribunal.
The international status of Croatia and its return to European
organizations
depend on the co-operation with the International Tribunal; the refusal
to
cooperate with the Tribunal may result in the introduction of
sanctions.
Actually, the International Community will use weak UN sanctions,
similar to
those with which international representative Carl Bildt recently
threatened
Serbia because it hadn't arrested Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic, in
order
to force local states to cooperate with the Tribunal.
Globus' special opinion poll, carried out on July 8 on a sample of 600
persons
shows that 60.7 percent of poll participants think that Croatia should
fulfil its
obligations towards the International Tribunal.
A majority of participants, 54.8 percent, agrees that the indicted
Croats should
be arrested if they are on the Croatian territory. 49.7 parcent believe
that the
Tribunal is objective and a slightly smaller portion of participants
believes that
general Tihomir Blaskic should appear before the Tribunal.
Serious Accusations
Dario Kordic is the highest Bosnian Croat official accused of war
crimes. At the
time the indictment was issued he was the president of the Croatian
Democratic
Union for Bosnia-Hercegovina. The International Tribunal for War Crimes
accused him in November 1995 for alleged crimes committed between May 1
1992 and May 31 1993 in the Lasva river valley in central Bosnia.
"Dario Kordic and Tihofil Blaskic, in that period, with their actions
and failure to
act, in co-operation with others, committed crime against humanity by
carrying
out political, religious and racial persecution of Bosnian Muslims.
They are
responsible for killing and wounding of Muslim civilians and prisoners;
attacks
and bombardment of undefended cities and villages; for deliberate
attacks on
civilians; unlawful destruction of commercial property, houses,
personal
property, and livestock; for unlawful treatment of prisoners;
imprisonment of
distinguished politicians; plunder of houses and personal property;
expulsion of
Muslim population from the Lasva river valley to the territories with
majority
Muslim population and other crimes against humanity."
According to the Hague Prosecutor, Richard Goldstone, Kordic's
responsibility
for the crimes comes from his political and military role during the
war in
Bosnia-Hercegovina. In the aforementioned period he was the
vice-president of
the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, a member of its Parliament, and
HVO commander in central Bosnia with the rank of colonel. He was the
commander of one of four HVO operative zones in Bosnia-Hercegovina.
According to the indictment, Dario Kordic has "demonstrated power,
influence
and control on several occasions and in different ways: by implementing
cease
fire agreements, issuing orders which were directly or indirectly of
military
nature, by wearing the HVO uniform and the accepting the rank of
colonel in
HVO, having an office for military operations in Busovaca, breaking the
cease
fire agreement when the condition were unfavorable, issuing orders for
arrest or
release of distinguished Muslims which were imprisoned by HVO and
negotiating
about the passage of humanitarian convoys and UN vehicles through check
points in central Bosnia".
Kordic's Response
"The indictments issued against me and another five Croats by the
International
tribunal in Hague are, above all, another demonstration of continued
international
pressure of the Croat people in Bosnia-Hercegovina," stated Dario
Kordic in the
interview given to Slobodna Dalmacija on December 5, 1995, after the
indictments had been issued. "I do not intend, nor do I deem it
necessary, to
defend myself. Therefore, I do not intend to defend the Croat people in
this
interview, nor any one of the accused. Because, we only did what every
man,
from any nation, would do in such a situation: we defended family
homes,
protected our lives and lives of mothers and children," emphasized
Kordic in the
same interview.
Before the start of the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina, Kordic was an
anonymous
journalist. He was born in Sarajevo, on December 14, 1960. He graduated
from
the Sarajevo University with the political science (journalism) degree
and worked
as a journalist for the factory paper "Vatrostalac" published by the
company
"Vatrostalna". Except during his studies, he has spent most of his life
in
Busovaca. He was a contributor of the daily Oslobodenje and of the
radio
stations in Sarajevo and Zenica. After the multiparty elections in 1990
he
became the chief of the Defense office in Busovaca municipality. That
was the
start of his military carrier. During the war he had the rank of
colonel in HVO
and he was an assistant of the HVO Chief of Staff. Today he is a
reserve
brigadier of HVO.
His political carrier also started in Busovaca, where he was the
founder of the
local HDZ branch. At the second HDZ Bosnia-Hercegovina conference he
was
elected the vice-president of the HDZ for Bosnia-Hercegovina, and in
1995 he
became its president. He resigned that position after the indictment by
the
International tribunal in the Hague.
His case is interesting for the future treatment of Croatia by the
international
community and for the assessment of the strength of different political
forces in
Croatia.
translated on 10/10/96
Boris Petrov
AP - Croat Defense Minister Summoned
Tribunal Calls Croatia Official
Saturday, February 15, 1997 7:32 pm EST
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- The international war
crimes tribunal for the former Yugoslavia has
ordered Croatia's defense minister to surrender
key documents, or appear before the court to
explain his refusal.
The documents are sought for the trial of Gen. Tihomir
Blaskic, whom the U.N. tribunal accuses of leading
Bosnian Croat forces in massacres of Muslims
during Bosnia's war.
Croatia missed the court's Friday deadline for
handing over the papers. The court issued a second
order Friday, giving Croatia until Wednesday to
surrender the information, tribunal spokesman
Christian Chartier said Saturday.
If that deadline passes, Croatian Defense Minister
Gojko Susak or his representative will have to
appear before the U.N. tribunal at The Hague to
explain, Chartier said.
Croatian officials could not be reached for
comment. The tribunal has repeatedly criticized
the Croatian government for refusing to extradite
war crimes suspects.
Blaskic himself has been in tribunal custody since
April 1996.
Boris Petrov
Slobodna Bosna...Interview with Ibrahim Mustafic about Srebrenica
Presidency and Army Command Sacrificed
Srebrenica
Slobodna Bosna, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, 7/14/96
Ibran Mustafic, representative in Bosnian and Federal Parliaments,
founder of SDA in Srebrenica and the captive of the Serb Army after
the fall of this town, talks about the events about which he had
unsuccessfully tried to speak in the Bosnian Parliament.
Who are the people you accuse and the people you don't trust?
Scenario for the betrayal of Srebrenica was consciously prepared.
Unfortunately, the Bosnian presidency and the Army command were
involved in this business; if you want the names, figure it out
yourself. I understood the situation in Srebrenica and, you can trust
me on this, had I not been prevented by a group of criminals, many
more inhabitants of Srebrenica would be alive today. Had I received an
order to attack the Serb army from the demilitarized zone, I would
have rejected to carry out that order without thinking and would have
asked the person who had issued that order to bring his family to
Srebrenica so that I can give him a gun and let him stage attacks from
the demilitarized zone. I knew that such shameful, calculated moves
were leading my people to a catastrophe. The orders came from Sarajevo
and Kakanj.
What were the consequences of the attacks staged from the
demilitarized zone for the inhabitants of Srebrenica?
That was a conscious giving of a pretext to the Serb forces to attack
the demilitarized zone.
Who in Srebrenica accepted to carry out those orders?
Those individuals who, in the Summer of 1995, without a scratch left
Srebrenica (...). It is well known that that team managed to get out
and take with along the elderly, children and horses. I can only thank
God, that a number of honest people and patriots managed to get out
with them. (...) According to our custom when someone finishes the
foundations for a house, an animal must be slaughtered on top of them.
It seems that Srebrenica was a sacrificial lamb for the foundation of
this state.
Do you think that the events would have been different had Srebrenica
truly be demilitarized?
Had some people then, or later, in 1994 and 1995 accepted to evacuate
the people and to concede the territory, that would have represented
the public division of Bosnia. It seems that they want to divide this
state in a secret, perfidious way.
Who are you talking about?
About the official authorities.
Why wasn't then, as you suggest, Srebrenica surrendered in 1993? What
was the goal of such "games" with Srebrenica?
The basic goal of that game was the illusionary freedom of Sarajevo
and the Bihac region. What hurts the most is the attitude towards the
survivors from the Drina valley who were in Srebrenica in July 1995.
Present attitude of the authorities towards those people is enough to
convince me that the authorities expected that the number of the
survivors would be smaller; it seems that the number of survivors is
too high for their calculations. They made me say this: "It seems you
are afraid of living Srebrenica inhabitants."
What makes you say that?
In the Bosnian Parliament, I initiated the formation of a special
committee whose task would be to search for the survivors from the
enclave (I claim that there are survivors!). There are certainly quite
a few survivors from Srebrenica. I am convinced that at least someone
out of those men who were separated in Potocari, among whom I was,
must have survived, if I have survived. Otherwise, they wouldn't have
released me as a witness. Secondly, when the column which was trying
to get out of Srebrenica was cut in half, the privileged team, which I
mentioned earlier and which had a permission to get out of the
enclave, simply continued and kept throwing fliers behind them; the
majority of the people was so confused that they simply surrendered in
huge numbers. I personally believe that the majority surrendered
alive.
Who was throwing fliers, and what was on those fliers?
They left behind them signs saying that the terrain was mined in order
to confuse the people who had been following them as much as possible.
The column was cut, people were out of their minds. I talked to a lot
of people who came from Srebrenica without injuries and didn't belong
to that team; when they told me about what happened on the way, I was
outraged. I cannot even think about that, let alone speak; these
things are horrible.
Do you think there is no will to find those people?
The fact that in the Bosnian Parliament no one has asked me about that
is enough to demonstrate that no one cares about that.
You suggested something else in the Parliament.
I suggested that a special fund be formed in order to assist the
people who have survived that catastrophe. Unfortunately, when I spoke
about that, prime minister Muratovic had left the hall, as if he had
had a premonition that he shouldn't hear that. I think that a lot of
money has been collected for Srebrenica and is flowing into the
Federal, cantonal and other budgets. I believe that the authorities,
from cantonal over Federal to republican, have benefited much more
from those funds than the people for whose use the funds had been
supposedly earmarked. I've heard that the Srebrenica authorities had
received more that DM 2 million a few months ago. How are they using
those funds, I don't know.
Therefore, this state hasn't fulfilled its obligations towards the
refugees from Srebrenica?
After all, taking into account the local situation, we have to ask
ourselves whether this is a state after all. Take Srebrenica for
example. No one from Srebrenica has been arrested in this state. And I
claim that a good number of people from Srebrenica should have been
arrested by now. They are still showing off, though.
What kind of crimes are you talking about?
The authorities in Srebrenica were not set up in accordance with the
Constitution; it was private matter of a group of individuals. One
could write pages and pages about looting, murders, terror, pressures,
maltreatment and other events in Srebrenica.(...) In Srebrenica, it
was always possible to buy at the market anything one might have
wanted. Hardly anything was lacking. Still the only source of goods
was humanitarian aid. Since not one commercial convoy had ever reached
Srebrenica. Some people established contacts across the frontline, but
as soon as the official authorities heard about that, that someone had
managed to buy something at a lower price, they would intervene
immediately, since they wanted to be the only source for supplies and
hold a monopoly in Srebrenica.
You were the victim of two assassination attempts.
Yes, I was. The first attempt on my life was made on may 25, 1993,
when someone fired a mortar shell from 20 meters away at a room in
which I slept at the time. That shell destroyed the room, but I, thank
God, wasn't hurt. The second attempt occured on May 19 1995. I was
with the former Srebrenica police commander, Hamed Halilovic. He died
in that assassination while I received serious injuries. A whole frame
was fired at me. When the assassins realized that I was still alive,
they fired a bullet in my head from point blank range. I was severely
wounded and consider that to be a double attempt at my life.
Who were the attackers?
The Srebrenica police commander at the time, Hakija Mehuljic, should
know. I can say that the people from the top of Srebrenica authorities
were involved in that assassination(...). That team which was in
Srebrenica gathered around it only uneducated people. They killed
"brains" to get rid of potential competition. As an example, I'll
mention the case of Nurif Rizvanovic. He came from Tuzla to Konjevic
Polje in the summer of 1992 with 450 soldiers; the soldiers were in
uniforms, armed and well trained. Rizvanovic, only because he was
potential competition to someone, was shamefully executed in the fall
of 1992. That is the reflection of everything that happened in
Srebrenica and around it.
At the beginning of our interview you mentioned that your goal is to
reveal the truth about Srebrenica.
Let me again mention that session of the Bosnian parliament. At that
session it was clear who was hiding the truth about Srebrenica. My
foremost task is to stay safe and secure in this state. If something
happens to me, the authorities will be responsible.(...)
How do you see the present situation and the solution for the people
from Srebrenica?
We are in this state 10th class citizens, left to fend for ourselves.
I hope that this people will recognize current political situation and
I think that their situation can only improve after the elections. The
elections should bring some new people who can appreciate people and
human values. The complete ruling team has failed at that test.
The Drina valley inhabitants are in the news because of another
problem - moving into Serb houses in the suburbs of Sarajevo. What
does the Dayton Agreement bring to them, in view of those events? Can
we hope for a return?
The official policy is consciously working for the division of
Bosnia-Hercegovina. I will repeat my words from the Parliament: I'm
convinced that the Serbs would have signed the Dayton Agreement in
1991 or 1992, without a single bullet. I don't think that people
should be forced against their will to live together (..). The only
possibility for the survival of the Muslim-Bosniak people is to return
to the Drina. If we accept this persecution, I am convinced that my
sons, who I hope to have one day, will have to go farther. As far as
moving into other people's homes is concerned, Srebrenica people
hadn't left tents behind them. We need accommodations. Let them return
our property and we will return to Srebrenica. And we also want to be
told what happened with our missing men.
Are there any new developments regarding that?
Taking into account that a lot of lies are circulating in this state,
one can not trust anyone. I found out through some people who are
close to the Croatian secret service who in their turn have contacts
with Serb secret service, that some 5,600 Srebrenica inhabitants are
still alive and held in different locations. Recently, Ms. Merhunisa
Komarica has told me that she had received some data from the Helsinki
Committee for Human Rights which mention 4,500 people. I am ready to
go anywhere and negotiate with anyone in order to win the release of a
single person from Srebrenica. I prefer two living Srebrenica
inhabitants to dead Radovan Karadzic. Finally, I would publicly state
that some men are still alive. The fact that the precise number of
missing is still not known, demonstrates how much the state cares
about those people.
Do you wish to add something at the end of our conversation>
I read the latest issue of Ljiljan last night. I buy that magazine in
order to check what the current official policy is. Anyway, I read
that Mr. Silajdzic [leader of the Party for Bosnia-Hercegovina, former
Bosnian prime minister] is gathering around himself corrupt officials.
Among others, I found my name. My greatest sin, as far as Ljiljan is
concerned, is that I got out of the Serb prisons alive. I should have
died. They don't appreciate living people. They only appreciate the
dead because they cannot talk. They should consider two assassination
attempts I survived in Srebrenica. If they are true believers and if
their religion is not a mask (...). I am a Muslim and a believer. With
my faith, I joined the people who do not spread fear in this state, do
not support looting, who support truth, who do not advocate violence
and support the rule of law. I haven't heard of a Muslim country in
the world in which Islam stands for something bad. Only their [SDA]
version of Islam advocates crime, murders, lies, looting etc. If they
want to advocate that sort of Islam, let them go and present it
somewhere else, not to this people who doesn't deserve to soil its
faith.
Translated on 8/4/96
Boris Petrov
For an extraordinarily well written Analisys of general American
prejudices about "nationalism" please read Slaven Letica's
chapter in the trully outstanding book "This Time We Knew" -
probably THE BEST book written on Serbia's aggression and
genocide.
Boris Petrovchich
Ljiljan... George Soros (fwd)
Soros's War Orphans
by Fahrudin Djapo , Ljiljan, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, 2/28 1996
Geroge Soros, a Hungarian Jew with American passport, millionaire and
financial genius, philanthropist and an advocate of open society is
certainly one of the most controversial and interesting persons from
this end of the century. His foundation Open Society Institute is
present in almost every country in transition. Soros financially
supports hospitals, schools, universities, publishers, refugees,
autonomous businessmen, However his support of independent media is
surely the most transparent part of the arrangement. His Belgrade's
magazine Vreme, Sarajevo's Slobodna Bosna, Split's Feral Tribune,
Ljubljana's (Sarajevo's) Svijet, Zagreb's Arkzin - are the newspapers
with more or less standardized pro-Serbian concept. Their general
opinion is that the war in the Balkans was a result of "nationalism"
or in the case of Bosnia and Herzegovina "nationalist parties" or
"nationalists' leaders". Soros himself does not consider these
newspapers to be too influential or powerful. As an example he
mentioned Feral which "deals with the most delicate issues, however
there is a small number of those ready or willing to listen and accept
responsibilities and consequences".
The Only Bosnian Speaks With a Heavy Serbian Accent
The most powerful "fist" of this 60 year old man, who according to his
own confessions "wishes to change the World", is Radio Slobodna Europa
(Free Europe, program broadcast in South Slavic languages), which has
been led by (recently) the former editor of Sarajevo's TV Nenad Pejic.
It was first broadcast from Munich and later from Prague (capital of
the Czech Republic where Soros's central offices are also located).
The program is available to all listeners from Macedonia to Slovenia.
A formulation such as a "program in south Slavic languages" should
suggest the language openness and representation of all variants as
precondition of political independence and objectivity. However on
Pejic's radio, Omer Karabeg, only member of editorial office who
according to his name and surname is a Bosnian, speaks with such a
heavy Serbian accent (note: never Slovenian nor Macedonian languages
which are also South Slavic languages) on which even Srbislava
Kobilarov, the staff correspondent from Belgrade, could envy him.
The fact that Geroge Soros is interested in the former Yugoslavia is a
clear proof that behind his aureole of a genius in one area of his
work hides a really naive and dilettante man in the other. If we
accept Soros's well-meant intentions to help us surpass the
consequences of the Serbian aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina
and Croatia, then we cannot but ask ourselves the following question:
How come that such a financial wizard who managed to destroy English
pound in just one day at the World Stock Market allowed Serbian lobby
to deceive him and play with him.
Soros "agrees and confirms that Serbia is the aggressor", which is
contrary to the statements of the editor of the radio Free Europe or
contrary to the articles written in the independent media. Consciously
or unconsciously, multimillionaire George Soros has become the puppet
on the string pulled by the quasi democrats Serbs, alleged citizen
alternative who work for Vreme or for Prague's editorial office, whose
highest point of democracy and objectivity is expressed by the
attitude that nationalism is the main reason for the outbreak of war
in Yugoslavia. Milosevic and his Nazi regime derive more profit from
the independent and open Free Europe program than from TV Serbia,
which they hold in their own claws. The Free European reporters from
Serbia engage in a foal play. Trying to sound objective and critical,
Srbislava Kobilarov, Zoran Mamula, Dragoje Zarkovic, Milica Lucic and
others report about dramatic fights in the Parliament between
Milosevic and democratic opposition leaders such as Dindic, Seselj,
Kosutnica...., in which they criticize Milosevic, executioner from
Dedinje, because he has not been more systematic in his genocide
against the Bosniaks. We should not forget that they also regularly
broadcast socio-economic analysis, "with a critical tone". This should
influence the receivers of messages to create a picture of Serbia as
dynamic and somewhat undemocratic society, which still does not
surpass the limits of parliamentary democracy.
Personal and National Interests Drawn From the
Aggression
One of the most indicative examples of the recent democratic changes
in Serbian society was the following case: Milosevic closed down and
put under government control "independent" radio station Studio B.
Soros's Free Europe has decided to protect freedom and independence of
the media at once and tried to sympathize with the colleagues from
Belgrade. At first sight nothing controversial has happened since all
the principles of the democratic state formed the part of the play. To
cry and whimper about the recent shut down of the sisterly radio
station is completely legitimate. The most important news item on
Pejic's radio (what a coincidence) is the one relating to the event
when IFOR captured the group of Bosnian terrorists "trained" by three
Iranians. Free Europe also broadcast (with great pleasure) the news
relating to the quantities of the weapons and explosives in shape of
children's toys found at the spot and the conclusion drawn from the
case was that the aforementioned group was "under the direct control
of the Bosnian Government in Sarajevo".
That's it, then! Milosevic is "not a democrat". He threatens
independent local station. On the other hand Izetbegovic is the
sponsor of "Iranian terrorists". The news are, (what a coincidence
again), published again just before the meeting in Rome. (February
16).
The special reporter from the Italian capital, Srdjan Kusovac, added a
special tone to it all, stating that there were rumors around the city
that Alija Izetbegovic was not willing to leave Sarajevo at the time
of the Ramadan. Such statements were considered funny by Kusovac.
Tendency to interpret events around us by some theories of conspiracy
leads away from truth. We should not doubt the good intentions of
Soros and give negative connotations to his mission without any solid
arguments. One should look at things without any bitterness and excess
of emotions. Then we should ask ourselves how Serbs managed to enchant
and deceive Soros, placing him in the service of their own national
and personal profits.
"Bosnia is more important to me than Croatia", says Soros. In spite of
the fact that Bosniaks are already sick of conspiracies, there are no
reasons to worry about. Critical and open media is not a rare or
miraculous thing in Bosnia. It would not hurt Bosnia if the wealthy
Soros spent a few bucks on the opening of the new newspapers which
would be called "Grude Tribune" or "Slobodne Pale" (Free Pale). There
would not be a lack of journalists who would be working for them
because as one of his ex employees said: "To work for Soros is easy
and there is a pile of money involved."
Translated by: CHC for Human Rights, Zagreb, March 4, 1996
Boris Petrov
Feral Tribune...Secrets of Croatian Justice
The Secret of Mitigated Crimes
by Domagoj Horvat
Feral Tribune, Split, Croatia
Mokronoge Case:Two years after a brutal murder of 9 muslim civilians
the three men charged with the crimes are finally free
The District Court in Zagreb recently released from custody Ivan
Bakovic, a.k.a. Ikach, from Tomislavgrad, one of the three persons
charged with participating in a murder of 9 people in the Duvno valley
village Mokronoge, in the neighboring country Bosnia-Hercegovina. The
crime happened on 8/10/93, around midnight, in a forest not far from
the house of the Baslaga family; the members of the Baslaga family
(Dika, Subra, Husein, Emira and Emir) and the Tiko family (Ibrahim,
Muharem and Mustafa) as well as Simha Duliman were killed from a fire
arm. Their massacred bodies were found the following morning. The
indictment by the District State Prosecutor of the Republic of Croatia
(RC) states that the premeditated crime was committed by the soldiers
from the HVO (Croatian Defense Council, Bosnian Croat militia) base in
helidrom near Mostar, namely forementioned Ivan Bakovic, Albert Tomic,
a.k.a. Poglavnik from Dugo Selo, and Petar Majic from Sisak [eastern
Croatia], born in Konjic [central Bosnia-Hercegovina] and without a
nickname. It is also said that another person, so far unidentified,
certain Ivan, took part in the crime as a driver (?) of the charged
trio.
The indictment says that the murderers, just before midnight, stopped
their car, driven by mysterious "Ivan", nearby the Baslagic's house at
the edge of the village. It is claimed that they were armed with a
semiautomatic rifle (Bakovic), a machine gun (Tomic) and a Kalasnikov
(Majic) and dressed in the HVO military uniforms. They entered the
house and encountered the Baslagics. They forced, while swearing and
threatening to "kill them like rabbits", nine people out of the house
and dragged them 1/2 km toward a forest at the end of the village.
They ordered the victims to lie face down on the ground and then shot
them. None of the victims survived.
Bullet cartriges fired from the Bakovic's and Tomic's weapons were
found at the scene of the massacre. Court experts say that at least
102 bullets were fired at the victims. Besides bullet wounds they
noticed several "cut wounds on dead bodies". Routine HVO military
police patrol also passed through the village that night. They arrived
after a call from a civilian policeman, who heard shots from infantry
weapons and a bomb explosion around midnight. Military policeman Miro
Bakovic was in the military patrol; he later became a defense witness
and stated that "the military patrol did not notice anything
suspicious."
Until now, the most important prosecution witness has been little
Amela Baslagic. It is known how she survived, but no one knows why.
Allegedly her elder sister begged the men in uniform to let Amela go
to sleep to a room on an upper floor. Until now, no one has explained
why the murderers spared little Amela. One can say it was a miracle,
but it doesn't prove anything. Anyway, the girl is alive and, as
stated in an investigation document recognized in Bakovic her brother
Emir's (he was killed that night) school friend. "He was in uniform
and had a gun, like a machine gun," said Amela.
A warrant was issued a day after the murder by the HVO military
police; indictment is based on the data collected by the Ministry of
Defense of the RC. Although both domestic and "foreign" military
institutions were involved in a pursuit, the second accused, Albert
Tomic, is still on the run and is being tried in absentia, while the
rest of the team is defending themselves from freedom: the third
accused, Mojic, for example, has been free for more than a year!
Merciful Indictment
The release of the accused and their defense from freedom was based on
the "quality" of the murders, the category which had been introduced
by the Public Prosecutor's Office [Drzavno Odvjetnistvo]. Namely, the
indictment is based on 9 "plain" murders, which legally assumes a
series of mitigating circumstances. When a murder is deemed to be
"plain" a release from custody is mandatory. The accused Bakovic and
Majic were released following that logic. Besides the opportunity for
the defense from freedom, the maximum punishment for several "plain"
murders is a 15 year jail term. Between idle counting of the possible
years in jail and the actual motive for that decision gapes
(ir)responsibility in the administration of justice. The Deputy State
Prosecutor, Radovan Santek, thinks, however, that everything was done
properly. In other words, the Public Prosecutor's Office was simply
forced by law to do as it did. Public still does not know why the
Public Prosecutor's Office representative decided for a "plain" murder
when he had legal option to call the things with their real name -
"qualified" murder; for which there is enough evidence and which is,
besides, the only suitable name for the merciless massacre which
happened that night. Because the legal term "qualified" denotes "a
cruel and perfidious" murder, "a premeditated attempt to endanger
safety of another person" and motives of "greed, reckless revenge or
other especially low motives." The elements of a "qualified" murder
are numerous in this case - except for "greed". The horror of what
happened that night, certainly exceeds the category of a "plain"
murder and deserves a suitable legal treatment, which is in this case
absent.
However, besides internal "legal difficulties", the external are also
present. It would not be improbable and for a first time that the
Croatian justice system bends backward and "follows orders" in order
to hide the real intentions. Clearly, in a wider context the judicial
mishmash was fabricated because of a state or private interests. That
isn't all that important anymore; what is important is that the
mishmash was "mixed up" against the interests of the judiciary and
justice.
Vow of Silence
Careful thinking might lead us to the understanding of why the
judiciary again allowed itself to be castrated. If we follow the fact
that unlike a "plain" murder, a "qualified" murder encompasses war
crimes, we may be on a right path. This time pressure was applied on
the judiciary to avoid the disclosure of a fact that the accused are,
regardless of HVO uniforms and their place of birth, citizens of the
RC and, until recently, soldiers in the Croatian Army [HV, Hrvatska
Vojska], whose soldiers were not supposed to be on the territory of
another state, nor were they supposed to commit war crimes.
Apparently, this is the main reason why recently the whole case, after
being a public matter for more than a year and being greeted with
numerous newspaper articles in its first phase, became a secret
affair. The case proceedings thus became secret and everyone involved,
from the judicial council, defense attorney, prosecutor to the judges,
is supposed to keep silent about the case, based on the professional
code of conduct. After the Public Prosecutor had turned a massacre
into a "plain" crime, the procedure of closing the main hearing to
public is legitimate and is based on Article 278 of the criminal code:
" The council (judicial, auth. remark) can at any time, officially or
at a suggestion of the parties involved, exclude public from the main
hearing in order to keep a secret (...) protect morality (...) or
protect other specific interests of a social community [society,
state?] (author's emphasis).
Justice in Custody
It is surprising that the case was not secret from the start. Also
surprising is a manic eagerness with which the Tomislavgrad military
and political nomenclatura [authorities] found the culprits and the
heart rending outrage over the crimes as well as generous "guarantees
for the safety of the Muslims remaining on that territory." Those
days, an elegiac atmosphere crept into all the Duvno valley hearts.
Zagreb daily, Vecernji List, for example, 2 days after the murders
wrote how "a sad news that 9 persons of muslim nationality have been
killed, reverberated among the inhabitants of Tomislavgrad." All that
at a time when Smiljko Sagolj was at the top of popularity with his
antimuslim hysteria.
So much sincere compassion and heart rending pain in only one day for
"some Muslims" (Sagolj), only to make the case secret. What has
changed after an orgy of "filantropic" chanting of "We shall punish
the offenders!" (Mijo Tokic, the president of HVO Tomislavgrad) - we
can only guess. That it is possible to act according to the laws and
justice in cases like this one, is suggested by , according to the
significance, almost identical case on the muslim side; their
extremists killed two Catholic priests in Fojnica [central Bosnia]
last year. The criminals were quickly caught and sentenced. It is
interesting that a judge (a Croat) after a while added a few years to
the original sentence.
On the other side, in democratic Croatia, the whole case of reckless
slaughter is viewed from all possible vantage points except for the
most important one - the judicial point of view. The way the things
are right now, the future resolution of this case will remain a secret
for us.
Boris Petrov
France-Presse -- Two new explosions in Mostar
(My note: Is cancer spreading to Tudjman's brain?)
MOSTAR, Bosnia-Hercegovina (Feb 16, 1997 ) - Two new
explosions of unknown origin rocked the city of Mostar overnight, a
spokesman for the NATO-led Stabilization Force said Sunday. There were
no injuries or damage.
The blasts occured in the Moslem-dominated eastern section of the city
at 1940 GMT and 2040 GMT, SFOR Commander Massimo Panizzi said.
Night-time explosions have become a regular occurence in the
Croat-Moslem divided town for more than a week now. None of them have
so far claimed any victims.
SFOR has blamed a Croat terror campaign against the Moslems for most
of the previous attacks.
No arrests have been made despite the deployment of 500 French and
Spanish SFOR troops to increase security and establish a curfew.
Seven explosions went off Friday night. Debris from what looked like a
60-mm mortar shell was found near one of the explosions sites, SFOR
said.
The presence of mortars would signify a sharp escalation of violence
in a town regarded as a litmus-test of the Moslem-Croat Federation.
On Monday, one person was killed and more than 30 injured when Croat
civilians opened fire on a group of Moslems trying to visit family
graves in the west of the city.
An investigation by UN police is expected on that incident within the
next few days.
Since the start of 11 months of fighting in 1993, Mostar has been
effectively divided into a Croat-controlled west and a
Moslem-controlled east, despite June elections intended to reunite the
city.
Boris Petrov
Mr. Edward J. Verlich, Editor
"Zajdnicar"
100 Delaney Drive
Pittsburgh, PA 15235
February 15, 1997
Dear Brother Verlich:
An Open Letter to Ms Mia Brozovich
To Ms Brozovich::
Thank you for proving what I have been trying to say for several years
now, "there is no right, room or tolerance for free expression for all
those who think differently than is prescribed by the ruling Croatian
political party, the HDZ." But first let's introduce ourselves. I am
a
Croatian peasant working in a Detroit factory, with no political
influence or ambitions. You Ms Brozovich are a full time paid member of
a Croatian political lobby group, whose part of the job is to promote
Croatian issues in the United States.
In your attack on the rights of independent thinking Croatians, you
have
proven that you (and others working for or are sympathetic to the group
currently ruling Croatia) will stoop to any level in order to silence
those who don't buy your propaganda and will lie whenever necessary or
expedient. I was amazed at the extent of your lies in the "Zajdnicar"
letter. As matter of fact, that was a "first," (I am assuming that
you
were born in the U.S.); you are the first "American" to attack people
like me. Until now, "Americans" (Croatians born and raised in America)
were tolerant of the opinions of others, they never attacked someone
just because they didn't agree with him and they never lied as you
have
(or at least not as much).
First, I never use the word ALL as you claimed. I did say (and still
do)
that many of the first generation Croatians (those born and raised in
Croatia) who assumed the positions of leadership in the Croatian
communities did so from more than just the love of Croatia. How do I
know? First by watching Detroit's (first generation) Croatians and
the
fact that the family that now emerged on the top never even admitted
to
being Croatian or had anything to do with the Croatian community BEFORE
1991, yet they emerged on the political top. Later I "compared" notes
with Croatians in other communities.
Your next lie was about me supposedly claiming that HDZ assumed
"control
of a totally free and democratic state." I suppose one needs
imagination
to be a full time lobby representative, so I guess you qualify.
You claimed that "... Croatia's potential as a democratic market
economy
- are tremendous," as if I said otherwise. I always did claim that
Croatia could become a great country but only with the right leadership
(and representatives who don't lie).
You claimed"......that Croatia's image had suffered because our
soldiers
and our leaders at home and abroad were too busy fighting a war and
building a country to manage a public relation coup." How dare you
insult the Croatian soldiers by mentioning them in the same sentence as
the many opportunists who used the war ONLY as a way of political and
economical advancement. Too many of our so called leaders in America
were too busy fighting each other for positions in organizations (such
as
yours) to be able to help Croatia or its public relations. As a
matter
of fact, in most cases this "public relations coup" you mentioned fell
on those of us who didn't spend our time "jockeying" for better
positions
but did what we could, by (among other things) writing to the media and
politicians, denouncing the Serbian aggression and the lack of
"Western"
help. I am challenging you here (and now) to get me a name of anyone
in
the Detroit three county area who over the last six years had more
letters
and articles published in all the media and who did more radio and TV
interviews supporting the Croatian cause than I did. I am only
mentioning this because as I said, I am just a semi literate Croatian
peasant, so if the Croatian "elite" and the HDZ activist weren't too
busy
fighting each other for better positions and recognition in Zagreb, can
you imagine how much these "illustrious" group could have accomplished?
As a matter of fact, I would also like you to find any individual or
group who brought more wounded Croatian soldiers for treatment to the
Detroit area than I did (in addition to the Bosnians I brought).
Again,
I am only mentioning this to remind you that you lied when you said
these
"Leaders" of ours were too busy fighting for Croatia to be able to do
anything else. As I said, they were too busy fighting each other and
getting promoted in Zagreb to be able to help anyone else.
Among some of your other claims, there is the one about the need of the
Croatian Diaspora and the Croatian government to have closer
cooperation
and about that being essential. You are almost right on that one. The
need for cooperation IS essential, but what we have instead is an
attempt
by the Croatian government to control this Diaspora, not to cooperate
with it. As I mentioned in my letter to Mr. Chicak (also in the "Z"),
there are states where there is a sincere, open and democratic
cooperation between the "mother country" and its Diaspora. Israel and
the American Jewish Congress is one of them. Croatia is not, at least
not yet. By your lies in the letter to the "Z" you took great pains
to
prove it.
Stjepan Balog
Warren, Michigan
cc: Ms Mia Brozovich,
friends (Internet, etc..)
Boris Tudan
> Znaci, Tudjman se dogovorio s Milosevicem da se, npr., srusi sve juzno
> od Dubrovnika, Vukovar i okolica, ubiju tisuce i protjeraju stotine tisuca
> Hrvata ?
Tako nekako... Zalosno, ali istinito!
Cinjenice: Da saradjuju nije nista cudno. Vidi 95. god, "Oluju" i Krajinu!
To ti nista ne govori!?
--
Ciao & TNX de Tookey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ This msg was sent by Tookey (fly.cc.fer.hr) ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ Also known as Boris Tudan .... - 9A6KTB ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ My phylosophy: ~~
~~ Kurac, Picka, Jebanje, Drkanje, Sperma, Vaginalije ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ +385 (0)47 622312 or Susacka 19, 47000 Karlovac, Croatia ~~
~~~ URL http://fly.cc.fer.hr/~tookey ~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Boris Tudan
zaboravio si antisrpsku politiku i kampanju koj aje trebala (i uspela) da
pokrene nacionalni pokret?!
Boris Tudan
> Ovdje se i medju seljacima uglavnom smatra sramotom
> pozivati se na NDH.
Ne bih se slozio! Ja znam i previse slucajeva koji dokazuju bas tuprotno od
onog sta ti tvrdis. U Karlovcu je prilican fazon biti Ustasa, nije nikog
sramota i nije nikom "neugodno" zbog takve titule. Cak suprotno. 70 %
Karlovcana se time ponosi. Tako je svuda u provinciji.
Damir Sokcevic
>> Ovdje se i medju seljacima uglavnom smatra sramotom
>> pozivati se na NDH.
>Ne bih se slozio! Ja znam i previse slucajeva koji dokazuju bas tuprotno od
>onog sta ti tvrdis. U Karlovcu je prilican fazon biti Ustasa, nije nikog
>sramota i nije nikom "neugodno" zbog takve titule. Cak suprotno. 70 %
>Karlovcana se time ponosi. Tako je svuda u provinciji.
Malo budite svjesni realnosti! Proslo je vise od 50 godina i tko od mladjih
zapravo ima ikakvu predodzbu o NDH i sl.! Posto su "komunisti" proklinjali
NDH, a njih se sada izjednacava s cetnicima, rezultat je predvidiv.
A iza toga ne stoji nikakva "ideologija".
===========================================================================
Damir Sokcevic Phone: (385-1) 4561-194
Theoretical Physics Division
Rudjer Boskovic Institute Fax: (385-1) 428-541
Bijenicka c. 54
POB 1016 Internet: sokc...@thphys.irb.hr
10001 Zagreb
Croatia
============================================================================
Boris Petrov
In <33087...@161.53.129.19> sokc...@thphys.irb.hr (Damir Sokcevic)
writes:
>In <5e9jpv$l...@bagan.srce.hr> too...@fly.cc.fer.hr (Boris Tudan)
writes:
>
>>> Ovdje se i medju seljacima uglavnom smatra sramotom
>>> pozivati se na NDH.
Nova (ZAISTA vrijedna) knjiga
Upravo citam knjigu "U ustaskoj emigraciji s Pavelicem"
jos uvijek zivog cestitog, sposobnog i skolovanog Hrvata
iz Foce, Muhameda Pilava, jedinog prezivjelog
muslimana-ustase iz ranih dana koji bio i u zatocenistvu
na Liparima, covjeka koji je prvenstveno bio HSS-ovac.
Tanka knjizica no upravo neshvatljivo interesantna i poucna;
svjedocanstvo o razdoblju ustastva o kojem se prakticki nista
nezna te o dogadjajima i ljudima o kojima se malo zna, a
cesto potpuno krivo i pristrano. Veoma bih je svima
preporucio - kosta oko $15 a moze se naruciti na:
Ovakova svjedocanstva se pojavljuju jednom u desetljecu.
Razgovore je priredio bivsi urednik "Glasa koncila" i
emigrantske "Poruke". Vlado Pavlinic. Jos jednom -
izvanredno interesantno i od prvorazrednog znacenja.
Boris Petrovcic
PS: Gosp. Pilav (88 godisnji) sada zivi u Zagrebu i uskoro ce mu
biti promocija njegove izvanredno interesantne i poucne knjige
(naravno ako HDZ mafija to ne uspije sprijeciti).
Mruff
This adress no exist. host unknow.
5 KORPUS <tne...@ix.netcom.com> escribió en artículo
<330999...@ix.netcom.com>...
> According ot daily Belgian newspaper "Liberation" there is up to 280
> european mercenaries in Kisangani, Steven Smiths was on the scene:
>
> "You could see them...loading and unloading cargo planes arriving them
> with weaponry..."
> "...says he witnessed arrival of ttwo groups of mercenaries. The first
> included 16 FRENCHMEN, 2 belgians and an Italian. Second group numbered
> about 260 men, and included SERBS, Croats, Poles and Russians.
> Leader of the force is "Christian Tavernier"
>
> Complete report, dated 29 01 1997 can be retrieved at:
>
> gopher://gopher.voa.gov:70/00/newswire/wed/ZAIRE-MERCENARIES
>
Dream Master
Damir Sokcevic (sokc...@thphys.irb.hr) wrote:
: In <5e9jpv$l...@bagan.srce.hr> too...@fly.cc.fer.hr (Boris Tudan) writes:
: >> Ovdje se i medju seljacima uglavnom smatra sramotom
: >> pozivati se na NDH.
: >Ne bih se slozio! Ja znam i previse slucajeva koji dokazuju bas tuprotno od
: >onog sta ti tvrdis. U Karlovcu je prilican fazon biti Ustasa, nije nikog
: >sramota i nije nikom "neugodno" zbog takve titule. Cak suprotno. 70 %
: >Karlovcana se time ponosi. Tako je svuda u provinciji.
: Malo budite svjesni realnosti! Proslo je vise od 50 godina i tko od mladjih
: zapravo ima ikakvu predodzbu o NDH i sl.! Posto su "komunisti" proklinjali
: NDH, a njih se sada izjednacava s cetnicima, rezultat je predvidiv.
: A iza toga ne stoji nikakva "ideologija".
Pa po istoj logici mozemo sasvim lepo da kazemo isto i za cetnike...
Zar ne? :)
Sada se cetnici izjednacavaju sa ustasama... Strasno.
--
|=|
-------------------------------ooO-( 0 0 )-Ooo------------------------------
Dragutin Cvetkovic (_) arge...@zmajtech.hobbiton.co.yu
Beograd drag...@slin.aubg.bg
Yugoslavia arge...@galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 KORPUS
5 KORPUS
Mruff wrote:
>
> This adress no exist. host unknow.
>
> 5 KORPUS <tne...@ix.netcom.com> escribió en artículo
> <330999...@ix.netcom.com>...
way.
Boris Petrov
In <330999...@ix.netcom.com> 5 KORPUS <tne...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>According ot daily Belgian newspaper "Liberation" there is up to 280
>european mercenaries in Kisangani, Steven Smiths was on the scene:
>
>"You could see them...loading and unloading cargo planes arriving them
>with weaponry..."
>"...says he witnessed arrival of ttwo groups of mercenaries. The first
>included 16 FRENCHMEN, 2 belgians and an Italian. Second group
numbered
>about 260 men, and included SERBS, Croats, Poles and Russians.
>Leader of the force is "Christian Tavernier"
>
>Complete report, dated 29 01 1997 can be retrieved at:
>
>gopher://gopher.voa.gov:70/00/newswire/wed/ZAIRE-MERCENARIES
Mercenaries are one thing, but FAR, FAR MORE interesting
item is HOW EXACTLY Serbian jets arrived to Zaire???
Despite arms embargo, etc. A whole chain of collaborating
governments must be involved in this, led, of course,
by France.
Boris Petrovchich
5 KORPUS
> Mercenaries are one thing, but FAR, FAR MORE interesting
> item is HOW EXACTLY Serbian jets arrived to Zaire???
> Despite arms embargo, etc. A whole chain of collaborating
> governments must be involved in this, led, of course,
> by France.
>
> Boris Petrovchich
First of all, I strongly doubt those jets are Serbian. They would
require to be extremely long range, and Serbs dont have that capability.
Also I doubt equipment is Serbian, except maybe small arms and ammo,
since higher quality and cheaper eqipment could be acquired elsewhere.
It is certain though, that France is using Serbs as a force on the
ground, while they control command and logistics. To be honest, this is
one more proof of anglo-ortodox cooperation, but do we really need any
more? We know the way it is, the ones that dont obviously do not want to
know. So it's too much talking about nothing really.
Enis Dzanic
Miroslav D Trajkovic
Boris Petrov wrote:
>
> In <33087...@161.53.129.19> sokc...@thphys.irb.hr (Damir Sokcevic)
> writes:
> >
> writes:
> >
> >>> Ovdje se i medju seljacima uglavnom smatra sramotom
> >>> pozivati se na NDH.
>
>
> Upravo citam knjigu "U ustaskoj emigraciji s Pavelicem"
> jos uvijek zivog cestitog, sposobnog i skolovanog Hrvata
> iz Foce, Muhameda Pilava, jedinog prezivjelog
> muslimana-ustase iz ranih dana koji bio i u zatocenistvu
> na Liparima, covjeka koji je prvenstveno bio HSS-ovac.
>
> Tanka knjizica no upravo neshvatljivo interesantna i poucna;
> svjedocanstvo o razdoblju ustastva o kojem se prakticki nista
> nezna te o dogadjajima i ljudima o kojima se malo zna, a
> cesto potpuno krivo i pristrano. Veoma bih je svima
> preporucio - kosta oko $15 a moze se naruciti na:
>
> bos...@dial.eunet.ch
>
> Ovakova svjedocanstva se pojavljuju jednom u desetljecu.
> Razgovore je priredio bivsi urednik "Glasa koncila" i
> emigrantske "Poruke". Vlado Pavlinic. Jos jednom -
> izvanredno interesantno i od prvorazrednog znacenja.
> Boris Petrovcic
>
> PS: Gosp. Pilav (88 godisnji) sada zivi u Zagrebu i uskoro ce mu
> biti promocija njegove izvanredno interesantne i poucne knjige
> (naravno ako HDZ mafija to ne uspije sprijeciti).
Cini mi se da sam ovu poruku video (par nedelja) ranije.
Zar je nisi vec procitao ?
Boris Petrov
LONDON (AP) -- Nora Beloff, the first woman political
correspondent in Britain and a journalist famed for her tenacity
and unpopular opinions, has died.
She died Wednesday after a short illness. She was 78.
Beloff's journalism career started in 1946 when she worked
for Reuters News Agency and then The Economist magazine
in Paris.
In 1947, she began a 30-year tenure at The Observer, a
national weekly in Britain, as the newspaper's
correspondent in Paris.
She moved to Washington and Moscow in the 1950s and
became Britain's first female political correspondent in
1964, holding the position until 1976. She left the
newspaper in 1978 after a disagreement with the
Observer's new editor Donald Trelford.
``Journalism was obviously the right choice,'' Beloff once
wrote. ``I had the necessary qualifications: inexhaustible
stamina, insatiable curiosity and a thick skin.''
After working for the Observer, she continued as a
freelance writer investigating the Soviet Union and the
former Yugoslavia. Her work led to being arrested in the
Soviet Union and expelled from Yugoslavia.
Despite her outspoken views and unpopularity on Fleet
Street, Beloff was admired by many journalists for her
dedication and talent.
Born to Russian Jewish parents in London Jan. 24, 1919,
Beloff was the third of five children. She studied history
at Oxford University and graduated in 1940.
She wrote five books including her last ``Tito's Flawed
Legacy'' about Britain's relationship with Marshal Josip
Broz Tito, leader of communist Yugoslavia.
In 1977, she married the Observer's former sports editor
Clifford Makins. He died in 1990. They had no children.
Funeral arrangements were not announced.
Boris Petrov
In <330A0D...@ix.netcom.com> 5 KORPUS <tne...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
You may doubt whatever you want, however several articles
specifically described Serbian jets piloted by
Ukrainian pilots. BP
Slavonac
Damir Sokcevic (sokc...@thphys.irb.hr) wrote:
: Znaci, Tudjman se dogovorio s Milosevicem da se, npr., srusi sve juzno
: od Dubrovnika, Vukovar i okolica, ubiju tisuce i protjeraju stotine tisuca
: Hrvata ?
Dali su se dogovrali oko neceg .. jesu ...
Jel je bilo mali milion tajnih sastanka obojice medjusobno ..
A da su se dogovarali o rusilackim akcijama to bas ni u teoriji ne mozemo
reci ..
--
slav...@student.math.hr
http://student.math.hr/~slavonac/
Oni su krali ,al' su i dali ...
ovi kradu ... al' nedaju ..
5 KORPUS
>
> You may doubt whatever you want, however several articles
> specifically described Serbian jets piloted by
> Ukrainian pilots. BP
Ukrainian pilots definetly, they are in mercenary business for a long
time; they piloted ARBIH helicopters (Mi8/17) as well as HVO ones, they
worked for Executive Outcomes in Sierra Leone on Mi 24, as well as
Croatian regular army Mi 24, before domestic crues were trained. I just
dont know which type of Serbian transport jets could have this range.
Unless they are flying from Libiya, which makes sense. Serbia still
leases their pilots to Libiya on one year based contracts. Libiya also
supports many rebel groups in Africa, like recent RUF in Sierra Leone,
or Taylor's guerillas in Liberia.
However I think where the jets come from is irrelevant. One thing that
is certain is you have a pretty large scale serbo/french involvement in
Zaire.
Enis Dzanic
Boris Petrov
> I just
>dont know which type of Serbian transport jets could have this range.<
Which damn range?? Yugoslav jets were delivered to Zaire,
obviously by large collaboration of many governments to
break arms embargo and to do business with Nazi Serbia.
Boris Petrov
See bellow on YUGOSLAV built jets....
Message: 2
To: BPe...@ix.netcom.com
From: Bor...@aol.com
Subject: jets
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:11:10 -0500 (EST)
February 18, 1997
Zaire Jets Bomb Civilians in Rebel-Held Town
By JAMES C. McKINLEY Jr.
GOMA, Zaire -- The embattled Zairian government on Monday for the
first
time used air strikes to punish civilians in a rebel town, sending
three
fighter aircraft to bomb the rebel-held city of Bukavu in eastern
Zaire.
The jets bombarded the town for about five minutes starting at about
5
p.m., hitting a bridge and a marketplace, a Western diplomat said. At
least
four bombs or rockets exploded. It was not immediately clear how many
had
been killed. Aid workers said at least six people were killed and 20
injured.
In the capital, Kinshasa, defense officials acknowledged that they
had
mounted the attack and promised more bombings in the future, the
British
Broadcasting Corporation reported.
The Zairian government has been using Yugoslav-built jets with
mercenaries
as pilots to hammer rebel positions on the front line, along a road in
the
vicinity of Lubutu and Walikali, but Monday's attack was the first that
was
aimed at terrorizing the local population in a rebel-held town.
The planes are based in Kisangani, a major government stronghold
about 300
miles northwest of Bukavu.
The Zairian government carried out the attack as it rejected
entreaties
from the United Nations, several western countries, and opposition
leaders in
Zaire for peace talks with the rebels, who began their military
campaign last
October. The rebels, who have the support of neighboring Rwanda and
Burundi,
have repeatedly routed the Zairian army, taking a 900-mile strip of
territory. They are now threatening Kisangani, the nation's
third-largest
city.
In an angry declaration on Monday, the government repeated its
opposition
to negotiations to end the conflict and accused the United Nations High
Commission for Refugees of ignoring the plight of Zairians displaced by
the
fighting.
"This discriminatory treatment is incompatible with the missions of
the
United Nations in general and with the UNHCR in particular," Foreign
Minister
Gerard Kamanda wa Kamanda said in a prepared statement after meeting a
U.N.
special envoy, Mohamed Sahnoun, who was in Kinshasa, trying to seek a
peaceful solution to the conflict.
There were reports from aid workers in Bukavu that panic-stricken
residents
were running for cover in all directions as the fighters swooped in
above the
lakeside city, sending explosives earthward.
"One bomb fell in the market," said Brenda Barton, a spokesman for
the
World Food Program in Nairobi, who had spoken to aid workers in Bukavu.
"Another fell 50 meters from the World Food Program office, which is
near the
governor's palace."
"There was a sense of panic in the town," she said. "People started
leaving."
The bombing appeared aimed at demoralizing civilians, when support
has been
growing for the rebellion over the last two months. Two weeks ago, the
government's much-ballyhooed counteroffensives fizzled. Since October,
the
rebels have taken town after town up and down the country's eastern
border.
Thousands of youths have joined the rebel army in the last two
months, and
many local Zairians who initially saw the rebellion as sponsored by
neighboring Rwanda have begun to see it as a just fight against Mobutu
Sese
Seko, who has driven the mineral-rich country into poverty in 31 years
of
corrupt and authoritarian rule.
The leader of the rebel alliance, Laurent Kabila, was in Bukavu at
the time
of the attack and may have also been a target, diplomats said. Kabila
has
said he is willing to hold peace talks with the government.
The war in eastern Zaire has its roots in the ethnic conflict between
Hutus
and Tutsis in Rwanda. The Hutu army and civilian militias massacred up
to
800,000 members of the Tutsi minority and moderate Hutus in 1994 before
fleeing in large numbers into Zaire. While living for two years in U.N.
camps, Hutu ideologues from Rwanda stirred up anti-Tutsi sentiment in
Zaire,
leading to the massacre of thousands in the province of Kivu. The
strategy
backfired in October 1996, when Zairian Tutsis took up arms and set off
the
current wave of violence.
The Tutsi rebels have since gained allies from other ethnic groups
tired of
Mobutu's reign and the rebellion has evolved into a full-fledged war to
topple the president, who is suffering from cancer.
Most of the Hutu refugees returned home in November after the rebels
attacked their camps, but there are still about 200,000 refugees hemmed
in by
the fighting at a makeshift camp known as Tingi Tingi, near the town of
Lubutu. Among the refugees are thousands of Hutu militiamen and former
soldiers who took part in the genocide in Rwanda. U.N. officials say
the
Zairian army has been arming these men over the last two weeks to help
fight
against the rebels.
From the beginning, Mobutu and his aides have tried to portray the
rebellion as a foreign-sponsored attack from Rwanda, Uganda, and
Burundi, not
as an indigenous uprising. He has accused those countries of sending
troops
to fight beside the rebels and supplying weapons, a charge all three
deny.
Though there are many ethnic Tutsis among the rebels who speak Rwandan,
there
has been no independent confirmation of Rwandan or Ugandan troops'
fighting
in Zaire.
Kamanda on Monday described the rebels as a group of Tutsi
executioners who
are pursuing a campaign of extermination against Hutu refugees on
Zairian
soil," the Associated Press reported. He said that talks could not take
place
without the simultaneous withdrawal of all foreign troops from Zaire.
Copyright 1997 The New York Times
5 KORPUS
Sorry, misunderstanding. I argued Yugo transport planes were delivering
equipment; that sounded unlikely. But if yugo combat jets were delivered
and are fighting now, that is more then likely. sorry again.
E Dz
Miroslav D Trajkovic
Iz jednog istocnoevropskog casopisa...
Lanac srece
Prekjuce sam u postanskom sanducetu nasao list hartije
na
kojem je pisacom masinom bilo napisano:
"S ljubavlju je sve moguce.
Ovo pismo ti je poslato da ti donese srecu. Original
ovog pisma je
u Novoj Engleskoj. Stici ce te sreca cetvrtog dana nakon
sto si
dobio pismo, samo ga moras poslati dalje. Vec je vise
puta obisao
svet, a sada je sreca poslata tebi. Ovo nije sala stici
ce te sreca.
Postom nemoj slati novac. Posalji kopije ljudima za koje
mislis da
im je potrebna sreca. Nemoj ostaviti ovo pismo, moras ga
u roku
od 96 sati poslati dalje. Posalji molim te 20 kopija i
vidi sta ce se
dogoditi za cetiri dana. Lanac potice iz Venecuele,
napisao ga je
Saul Dautonov iz Juzne Afrike. Zato pismo mora obici
svet. Moras
napraviti kopiju od 20 komada i poslati prijateljima i
znancima. Za
deset dana doci ce iznenadjenje.
Slusaj: jedan farmer u Danskoj dobio je ovo pismo i nije
ga na
vreme poslao jer je krunio kukuruz. Jedno zrno je tako
odskocilo
da mu je uletelo u desno oko sto je dovelo do ostecenja
roznjace i
momentalnog prestanka krunjenja. Sluzeci se levim okom,
farmer
je napisao i poslao pismo. U roku od 96 sati kukuruzu je
skocila
cena (oko je doduse otislo kao rukom odneseno). Jedna
devojcica je pre mnogo, mnogo godina dobila pismo.
Sedeci
pokraj prozora vredno je detinjom rucicom prepisivala
red po red
pisma dok su krupne, besumne pahulje klizile kroz nemo
pozarevacko predvecerje. Posrecilo joj se ne samo da se
uda
nego da njen muz postane vladar.
U Kolumbiji je Konstantin Dijez, kotlokrpa iz okoline
Bogote
resio da pismo prepise u nedelju kad dodje iz crkve. A
dobio ga
je u ponedeljak. U petak ga je ujela zmija, hitno je
prebacen u
Bogotu gde je dobio cetiri seruma. Lekari su se
danonocno borili
za njegov zivot ali je on posle svega dva sata preminuo
iako zmija
uopste nije bila otrovnica. Njegov segrt jeste odmah
zabatalio
posao, ali je napisao i poslao pismo. Nakon cetiri dana
poceo je
sa gazdaricom da zivi u divljem a godinu dana kasnije i
u pravom
braku. Sada ima cetiri sina i dva segrta.
Jedan covek dobio je pismo koje donosi srecu, ali nije
zeleo licno
da ga prekuca i posalje. Rekao je: 'Senta, druze, ti
imas lep
rukopis, prepisi ded ovu glupost i posalji liderima
koalicije
Zajedno, sto da se malo ne nasalimo sa tim amaterima!'
Nareceni
Senta postupio je po naredjenju, pismo je napisao a
kurir ga je
pustio u odgovarajuce sanduce. Zbog javasluka poste
pismo nije
stiglo u odredjenom roku (direktor te ustanove bice
smenjen dva
meseca kasnije a niko nece znati zasto!), ali je na
kraju stiglo.
Cetiri dana po primitku pisma opozicionari su iznenada
dobili
stotine hiljade simpatizera koji su im tri meseca
danonocno klicali
dok su onome koji se pismu hteo narugati zvizdali,
izmisljali
pogrdne nadimke i cak trazili njegovu ostavku. On je na
nervnoj
bazi dobio alergiju zbog koje se nije smeo brijati tako
da je dva
dana proveo u panicnom strahu da ce morati da pusti
bradu i da se
samim tim razvede od zene koja ga je inace stalno
navodila na
dobro. Toga puta, bas, kad je samostalno nesto odlucio,
zena je
bila u Kini, ali nju je lanac srece stitio jer je ona
jos kao pionirka
zasluzila dozivotnu srecu poslavsi pismo na dvadeset
adresa.
Samim tim pomogla je muzu da ostane na vlasti, jer bi
njegov pad i
nju unesrecio, a tako nesto nije dolazilo u obzir.
Gradonacelnik jednog istocnoevropskog grada nije poslao
pismo
srece (kojim je trebalo da pozove skupstinske
odbornike). Ostao
je bez posla i isteran je iz Partije. U isto vreme,
jedna zena je u
Americi dobila ovakvo pismo. Imala je e-mail na
njujorskom RU,
gde je bila zaposlena, otkucala je pismo i poslala ga na
dvadeset
adresa. Kroz 96 sati javljeno joj je da je postala
ministarka
informisanja u jednoj prekomorskoj zemlji. Sudbina je
htela da to
bude bas zemlja u kojoj se pre mnogo godina rodila, a
vlada ciji je
iznenadni clan i ona postala u njenu cast vec osniva
nezavisno
glasilo 'Azania Times'."
Ukoliko nakon ovih sto romanticnih sto zastrasujucih
primera
barem dvadeset citalaca bude kupilo po dvadeset
primeraka ovog
broja "Vremena" u svrhu deljenja prijateljima, lanac
srece ce se
nastaviti ń obuhvatice u najmanju ruku nas u redakciji
(pogotovo
ako zbog velike jagme ovaj broj budemo morali stalno da
dostampavamo).
Peacock
people wrote:
> : >> Ovdje se i medju seljacima uglavnom smatra sramotom
> : >> pozivati se na NDH.
>
> : >Ne bih se slozio! Ja znam i previse slucajeva koji dokazuju bas
tuprotno od
> : >onog sta ti tvrdis. U Karlovcu je prilican fazon biti Ustasa, nije
nikog
> : >sramota i nije nikom "neugodno" zbog takve titule. Cak suprotno. 70 %
> : >Karlovcana se time ponosi. Tako je svuda u provinciji.
>
> : Malo budite svjesni realnosti! Proslo je vise od 50 godina i tko od
mladjih
> : zapravo ima ikakvu predodzbu o NDH i sl.! Posto su "komunisti"
proklinjali
> : NDH, a njih se sada izjednacava s cetnicima, rezultat je predvidiv.
>
> : A iza toga ne stoji nikakva "ideologija".
>
> Pa po istoj logici mozemo sasvim lepo da kazemo isto i za cetnike...
> Zar ne? :)
> Sada se cetnici izjednacavaju sa ustasama... Strasno.
>
Ljudi kada ce te jednostavno zaboraviti te primitivne, nehumane, kafanske
price o cetnicima ustasama enickom ciscenju itd.
Svako ko ima imalo mozga u glavi moze vidjeti ko samo od toga ima koristi.
Ratni profiteri, Privredni i politicki kriminalci, a jadan izmanipulirani
narod se jos uvijek svadja oko mrvica koji padaju sa guzonjinih stolova.
Ne zivi se od proslosti nego od buducnosti. Mi bi iz proslosti samo mogli
nesto nauciti, ali to nam bas ne ide za rukom. Zato prekinimo sa tom
primitivnom nacionalnom netrpeljivoscu i shvatimo da se svi nalazimo u
istom tonucem brodu (BALKANU).
Bruno Zelic
Dream Master
: Ljudi kada ce te jednostavno zaboraviti te primitivne, nehumane, kafanske
: price o cetnicima ustasama enickom ciscenju itd.
: Svako ko ima imalo mozga u glavi moze vidjeti ko samo od toga ima koristi.
: Ratni profiteri, Privredni i politicki kriminalci, a jadan izmanipulirani
: narod se jos uvijek svadja oko mrvica koji padaju sa guzonjinih stolova.
: Ne zivi se od proslosti nego od buducnosti. Mi bi iz proslosti samo mogli
: nesto nauciti, ali to nam bas ne ide za rukom. Zato prekinimo sa tom
: primitivnom nacionalnom netrpeljivoscu i shvatimo da se svi nalazimo u
: istom tonucem brodu (BALKANU).
: Bruno Zelic
Evo ja se slazem sa runom...
I zato pitam sledece: sta mozemo nauciti iz nase proslosti? Mi,
Srbi i Hrvati, i svi ostali?
Boris Tudan
> Ljudi kada ce te jednostavno zaboraviti te primitivne, nehumane, kafanske
> price o cetnicima ustasama enickom ciscenju itd.
> Svako ko ima imalo mozga u glavi moze vidjeti ko samo od toga ima koristi.
> Ratni profiteri, Privredni i politicki kriminalci, a jadan izmanipulirani
> narod se jos uvijek svadja oko mrvica koji padaju sa guzonjinih stolova.
> Ne zivi se od proslosti nego od buducnosti. Mi bi iz proslosti samo mogli
> nesto nauciti, ali to nam bas ne ide za rukom. Zato prekinimo sa tom
> primitivnom nacionalnom netrpeljivoscu i shvatimo da se svi nalazimo u
> istom tonucem brodu (BALKANU).
Nije bit da se zaboravi, vec upravo suprotno, da se upozna, nauci, razume!!!
No to ljudi zbog nedostatka obrazovanja, vremena, zbog vlastite gluposti
ne prakticiraju!!! Ja znam ljude koji slave 10.04. a da jedva znaju sta se
tada uopste dogodilo!!!??? To rade samo zato sta je to IN, sta "misle" neku
svoju filozofiju o svemu... Nikad mi nisu bili jasni, pa nisu ni sada. I sta
je najgore, takvi ograniceni moroni nam vode drzave! i narode!
Boris Petrov
Subject: NYT - 2/28/97 - Tudjman's HDZ Mafia - A Shame Of Croatia
Forever
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:55:07 -0500 (EST)
NYT - February 28, 1997
On Bosnia's Ethnic Fault Lines, Tensions Are High but
the World Is Silent
By Chris Hedges
MOSTAR, Bosnia-Herzegovina -- The local Croatian
authorities insist that the two huge pits being dug along
the old confrontation line in the center of Mostar will hold
the foundations of a theater and a Catholic cathedral. To
their Muslim enemies on the other side of town, they look
like the beginnings of fortified bunkers and an attempt by
the Croats to seize territory in the desolate no man's land
that separates east and west Mostar.
The international peacekeepers here say they suspect
the Croats are building forts, but they show no inclination
to do anything about it.
It used to be that such questions, typical of the dizzying
contretemps between ethnic Croats and Muslims in
Mostar, preoccupied and concerned the outside world,
which invested tens of millions of dollars to unify this
divided city of 70,000 people.
But no more. Exhausted and frustrated by the repeated
refusal of Serbs, Croats and Muslims to honor the
December 1995 peace agreement, the international
organizations have begun a silent retreat from Bosnia.
An international peacekeeping force, 30,000 strong,
remains in Bosnia, but its commanders insist that the
force will leave as planned in the spring of next year.
The European Union, which donated more than $150
million in reconstruction aid, withdrew in disgust in
December. The United States, which brokered a
federation of Muslims and Croats in Bosnia, has yet
to get it to function.
And the Spanish peacekeeping force stationed here,
which lost 17 soldiers in the Bosnian war, recently
received orders from Madrid to avoid violence, senior
NATO officials say. Those commanders say Spanish
patrols, which have been fired on twice this month,
have begun turning away when confronted by groups
of armed Croats.
Mostar, a city split down the middle between ethnic
Croats and Muslims, has always been one of the
country's most visible and dangerous fault lines. But
its current crisis, rather than an anomaly, exposes
what by general agreement is the failure of the
international effort in Bosnia.
The World Bank spent only a third of the $1.8 billion it
raised for Bosnia because of repeated failures to
institute economic reforms or honor the terms of the
peace agreement. And the United Nations High
Commissioner for Refugees was only able to raise a
third of the money it solicited for this fiscal year
because of what refugee agency officials described as
"donor fatigue."
"We have been abandoned," said Ivan Prskalo, the
Croatian Mayor of west Mostar. "The European Union
rebuilt the infrastructure but didn't give us the money to
maintain it. International aid has virtually ceased. Things
are beginning to fall apart. We are in crisis. The world
needs to come back and finish the job."
But the days when the international community saw
this as their job are over. International officials say that
at best, Bosnia will limp along with a tense partition, as
in Cyprus, and at worst will plunge again into war.
Mostar saw savage fighting in 1994, when Muslims
and Croats battled house to house, leaving some
2,000 dead and the city's center a desolate, gutted
wreck. Muslims are now bottled up on the eastern bank
of the Neretva River, which divides the city; the Croats
control the west and access to Croatia and the coast.
Nervous Croatian and Muslim troops eye each other
along the opposite banks, often just a few hundred yards
apart.
The Croatian construction activity along the dividing
line speaks volumes about the attitude of confrontation
that prevails here. The Croats have filled in the windows
in the old high school and several other roofless hulks
with cement blocks. But the builders have left narrow
gun slits in each bricked-up frame.
Abandoned Muslim homes in the no-man's land west of
the river, although already heavily damaged, are flattened
in nightly explosions. And in defiance of the outside world,
the Croats in west Mostar have renewed a campaign to
evict the dwindling and elderly population of some 3,000
Muslims from their sector.
(My note: The primary reason for crimes of eviction is
money for HDZ mafia war lords. Together with narcotics
and smuggling, sale of stolen housing has been one of the
main sources of wealth for local criminals led by Croatia's
Defense Minister Gojko Susak's local mafia boss, former
Communist secret service (Udba) high ranking officer,
Mladen Naletilic-Tuta. Among numerous details about the
absolute power of that criminal, Naletilic-Tuta has forced
Croatian general Praljak (a former theater director who
excecuted orders from Zagreb to destroy the famous Old
Bridge of Mostar) on his knees in front of his troops by
placing a gun in Praljak's mouth - in order to show who
commands Croatian troops imported to the "republic of
Herzeg-Bosnia").
In late November, Croatian police seized the municipal
building, renovated with half a million dollars of European
Union money, and have locked out the Muslims who
under the federation agreement should share offices with
them. West Mostar officials refuse to speak or meet with
their Muslim counterparts.
On Feb. 10, Croatian police officers opened fire on a
peaceful crowd of Muslims who walked into west Mostar to
visit a cemetery during the Muslim holiday of Eid al Fitr.
Spanish troops, stationed at the crossroads where the
shooting took place, withdrew moments before the firing
began and ignored pleas by unarmed U.N. police observers
who witnessed the attack to return to restore order,
according to an internal International Police Task Force
report.
The U.N. police monitors have released a series of color
photographs showing Croatian police officials, including
west Mostar's deputy police chief, Ivan Hrkac, firing pistols
at the fleeing Muslims. But they have been unable to get the
Croats to remove the police officers, who killed one man
and left more than 20 wounded.
"We interviewed the police officers who fired on the crowd,"
said the international police commissioner, Robert
Wasserman, "and every single one of them lied to us. They
told us they were not armed, even though we have photos
of them firing on the retreating crowd." (My note: remember,
firing guns in the backs of retreating civillians/pilgrims)
The Bosnian Croat leadership, who defend the police
action, say the Muslims were carrying knives and were
preparing to "attack Croatian children."
NATO officials say the orders they get from Washington
and most European capitals is to maintain the current
cease-fire and stay out of disputes that could draw
peacekeeping soldiers into a local conflict. This greatly
emboldened the defiance of militants on all sides.
"The situation has become ludicrous," said a senior
Western official in Mostar. "We are handing out pictures
of Croat police shooting women in the back and nothing is
done. It illustrates how weak and futile our presence has
become. It exposes where not only Mostar but Bosnia and
Herzegovina is headed."
The Muslims, who say the shooting is too egregious an
act to ignore, warn that it will end their attempts to reach
out and build a united city and a workable federation
government.
"If these Croat police officers are not arrested and charged
for firing into an unarmed crowd, it will end any hope of
cooperation between us and the Croats," said Dziho Sefkija,
east Mostar's police chief. "This, however, is probably their
goal."
The Croatian leaders in Mostar, backed by Zagreb and
closely linked with organized crime gangs that deal in
drugs and prostitution, seem beyond caring what the
outside world wants or thinks.
The sprawling aluminum factory five miles outside the city,
set to begin operation next month after being closed for five
years, is perhaps the most visible symbol of why the Croats
have no desire to link themselves with the rest of Bosnia
and will protect their de facto integration with neighboring
Croatia.
The $650 million plant, which was hooked up this week
to the Croatian electrical grid, should be the property of the
federation government. Instead, it looks set to become
the property of the local Croatian political leadership.
Miro Brajkovic, who was director of the plant before the
war and is one of the highest-ranking politicians in west
Mostar, dismissed the protests by the Muslims that under
the federation agreement they should also share in the
ownership of what was once a Yugoslav government plant
that employed 5,000 workers.
"The Muslims have their own factories," he said. "This is
ours. I have seen these reports by the international police
and others about our police, about our city. We are tired
of the international community always taking the side of
the Muslims. If there is another war here it will be the
fault of all these international groups."
For those caught in the middle of the fracas there is little
hope that much in their lives will be impartial or fair. In the
last year more than 80 Muslim families have been driven
from their homes and apartments, often by uniformed
Croat police or military, who then swiftly sell the
apartments to friends.
The suffering of those driven from their homes is a small
reminder of the widespread terror that gripped this city
during war and could, with just a spark, grip it again.
Sadeta Rebac, a 64-year-old invalid, sat wrapped in a
blanket in her sister's tiny apartment in east Mostar. She
was dragged a few weeks ago by her arms from her
apartment in west Mostar by three young Croats in military
uniform. They dumped Mrs. Rebac, a widow, with her
crutches on the dividing line and left her to find her way at
night, with none of her belongings, into the eastern part
of the city.
"I hear from neighbors that my apartment, where I lived
for 20 years, was sold by these men to a Croat soldier for
$3,000 dollars," she said. "He and his family live there now.
The rest of my life will be spent here."
My comment: For how much longer will Croatians at home
endure just watching these horrors by Tudjman's neo-communist
mafia. A passive silence and meek protestations once a year
are - outright collaboration in crimes?