Was Ibn Khaldune KABYLE??!!
Fodil
Blanca!, are you NUTS!!..Hey!, you can steal the arabo-muslman Music and
culturre and call them Imazighen, but NOT the true ARAB people!!, come
on!!..
Blanca wrote in her website, what the hell is the following!, the Imazighn
are ARABS!!?
Imazighen as perpetual torch bearers of world civilization brought to
glorious heights Islamic civilization in Tamazgha and Andalusia. They made
major contributions to the sciences, philosophy, theology, jurisprudence,
mysticism, and art. They contributed major thinkers and scientists such as
Ibn Khaldun, the founder of modern scientific history and sociology, and Ibn
Rushd (Averroes), doctor, astronomer, jurist, and philosopher who had a
major influence on the development of western through and civilization. They
taught their European students--among whom is included such as Francis
Bacon--the sciences, philosophy, and arts, and introduced the scientific
method, laying the foundations of the European renaissance.
bmadani
author. I didn't write that. Besides, they were Amazigh.
Fodil
bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:38B0BEF7...@worldnet.att.net...
> Fodil, if getting something from my site, make sure you credit the right
> author. I didn't write that. Besides, they were Amazigh.
>
Ibn Khaldun was a Kabyle!!?, maybe IBN rushd was?
Today, only some Kabylo-Kabyles of Grande Kabylie are Imazighen, usually the
NON-SEMITIC ones, they are of a different race than the rest of the
Algerians, and they have a different flag!!, how come a Muslim and an Arab
is an AMAZIGH!!??,
Please next time you write something about the Algerians, be more specific..
What is Kabyle is Kabyle and what is Chnoua is Chnoua!!, what is MOUZABITE
is MOUZABITE, and what is chaouis is chaoui..Ti most of us Imazighen means
Kabyle and only Kabyle!, and they are the TRUE GENUINE PURE Imazighen!..(or
Am I mistaken?), I don't think that the Mouzabite will appreciate it linking
them with the others, they made it very clear, and they've gained respect by
most Algerians..I don't think that they deny their arabo-musulman heritage!,
I don't think so..Maybe the chaouis do, go ask them!
Note: There also some chnoua and few from petite Kabylie that are of the
same race as the Imazighen, and none of them speak arabic and they are NOT
muslims, none of them is circumcized, they are like some GIA members that
were found to be non-circumcized..Please, correct me if I'm Mistaken!..I
think that they want to be recognized as Imazighen!, and ils revendiquent
leur race/identite Amazigh!, Am I wrong?..
Why do you want to link them with the ARABS and Islam!, it's totally against
their ideology!..They have no arab and no islam heritage in them, "Il sont
tout simplement IMAZIGHEN", Ibn Khaldun was a Jurist Muslim-MALIKI and he
also practiced suffism..By the ways Suffism was NOT a North Africain
creation, it was ARABian!!..
Fodil
bmadani
Fodil wrote:
>
> h.
> >
> It does NOT matter, you know that you are publishing FALSEHOOD!, how come
> Ibn Khaldun was a Kabyle!!?, maybe IBN rushd was?>>
It does not say that Ibn Khaldun was a Kabyle. Don't fabricate.
> > Today, only some Kabylo-Kabyles of Grande Kabylie are Imazighen, usually the
> NON-SEMITIC ones, they are of a different race than the rest of the
> Algerians, and they have a different flag!!, how come a Muslim and an Arab
> is an AMAZIGH!!??,>>
You are so happy being an ignorant.
> > What is Kabyle is Kabyle and what is Chnoua is Chnoua!!, what is MOUZABITE
> is MOUZABITE, and what is chaouis is chaoui..Ti most of us Imazighen means
> Kabyle and only Kabyle!,>>
Then "most" of you need to be educated.
> and they are the TRUE GENUINE PURE Imazighen!..(or
> Am I mistaken?), I don't think that the Mouzabite will appreciate it linking
> them with the others, they made it very clear, and they've gained respect by
> most Algerians..I don't think that they deny their arabo-musulman heritage!,
> I don't think so..Maybe the chaouis do, go ask them!>>
The Chaouis do not deny that they are descendants of Massinisa and
Jugurthen and Kahina.
>
> Note: There also some chnoua and few from petite Kabylie that are of the
> same race as the Imazighen, and none of them speak arabic and they are NOT
> muslims, none of them is circumcized, they are like some GIA members that
> were found to be non-circumcized..Please, correct me if I'm Mistaken!..I
> think that they want to be recognized as Imazighen!, and ils revendiquent
> leur race/identite Amazigh!, Am I wrong?..>>
Just what are you saying?
> > Why do you want to link them with the ARABS and Islam!, it's totally against
> their ideology!..They have no arab and no islam heritage in them, "Il sont
> tout simplement IMAZIGHEN", Ibn Khaldun was a Jurist Muslim-MALIKI and he
> also practiced suffism..By the ways Suffism was NOT a North Africain
> creation, it was ARABian!!..>>
Sufism was not Arabian. You really are batting zero.
Fodil
Yes, some chaouis should say that they are descendant of Massinias and
Yughurten, because they ARE!, but these same chaouis do NOT deny their
ARABITE and Islamite!, they are NOT saying "We are pure blooded Imazighen
culturally and ethnicaly"..The chaouis are talking about their ancient
civilization and culture to make sure that the kabylo-kabyle-Imazighen do
NOT monopolize everything..
And they are NOT saying that Ibn Khaldun was CHAOUI!!
Suffism is originally Arabian!, do you want proof?
O.K., who practiced Suffism before the arrival of islam?, chaouis?, Kabyles
or Mouzabite?, maybe the JEWS?, yes they have Kaballa!, remember that the
jews kept everything for themselves!, and there has never been any jewish
influence of the N.Africans!, never!!..
You said Ibn Khaldune was an amazigh, i.e. either a kabyle, a chaoui,
Mouzabite or chnoua?, you classified earlier the Amazigh people!..
We don't need to be educated, we already are,we know who we were, and we
CHOSE to be who we are..We chose to be Muslims and we chose to adhere to our
Arabite', others can choose whatever..
Questioin: What is the origine of BAGHRIR and el3ssida!?, what about
berkoukes?, I think that you should concentrate on the cooking and household
stuff!, for you'll never understand us..Never!..You are trying too hard..
All this Amazighomania came about to oppose total Arabization.period.
Otherwise The Kabylo-Kabyles would never say anything..
See more answers to your siliness below..
bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:38B13614...@worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Fodil wrote:
> >
> > h.
> > >
> > It does NOT matter, you know that you are publishing FALSEHOOD!, how
come
> > Ibn Khaldun was a Kabyle!!?, maybe IBN rushd was?>>
>
> It does not say that Ibn Khaldun was a Kabyle. Don't fabricate.
>
If he was an amazigh, he must have been one of your Amazigh-speakers group.
Either, a Kabyle, a Chaouim M'zab or Sahraoui?, so who was he?, be
specific?, or maybe an Amazigh from Khmiss Meliana??!!, tell us what kind of
Amazigh!, I hope that you don't mean he was a jew..
> > > Today, only some Kabylo-Kabyles of Grande Kabylie are Imazighen,
usually the
> > NON-SEMITIC ones, they are of a different race than the rest of the
> > Algerians, and they have a different flag!!, how come a Muslim and an
Arab
> > is an AMAZIGH!!??,>>
>
> You are so happy being an ignorant.
Who else is claiming that arabite and islamite is NOT part of their
heritage?
>
> > > What is Kabyle is Kabyle and what is Chnoua is Chnoua!!, what is
MOUZABITE
> > is MOUZABITE, and what is chaouis is chaoui..Ti most of us Imazighen
means
> > Kabyle and only Kabyle!,>>
>
> Then "most" of you need to be educated.
NO, we are all DIVIDED into many groups!, didn't you say so earlier!!.
You need to be reminded that you have NO idea what you are talking about,
and also some Kabyles are "ARABS" and SEMITIC not Indio-Europeans or
Whatever their race is!!
>
> > and they are the TRUE GENUINE PURE Imazighen!..(or
> > Am I mistaken?), I don't think that the Mouzabite will appreciate it
linking
> > them with the others, they made it very clear, and they've gained
respect by
> > most Algerians..I don't think that they deny their arabo-musulman
heritage!,
> > I don't think so..Maybe the chaouis do, go ask them!>>
>
> The Chaouis do not deny that they are descendants of Massinisa and
> Jugurthen and Kahina.
Of course they don't because THEY ARE!, they don't want the kabylo-kabyles
to steal their heritage, but they never DENY their arabite and islamite',
never!..Go Ask them!
>
> >
> > Note: There also some chnoua and few from petite Kabylie that are of the
> > same race as the Imazighen, and none of them speak arabic and they are
NOT
> > muslims, none of them is circumcized, they are like some GIA members
that
> > were found to be non-circumcized..Please, correct me if I'm Mistaken!..I
> > think that they want to be recognized as Imazighen!, and ils
revendiquent
> > leur race/identite Amazigh!, Am I wrong?..>>
>
> Just what are you saying?
I'm saying that the Kabylo-Kabyles , some from petite Kabylie and some
chnoua belong to the SAME race, and the remaining of the Algerians that
still adhere to their arabite and islamite belong to the same RACE and
ETHNICITY, they came from the same stock!..VERY simple!, there exist two
Different races in Algeria.
1. The Pure imazighen race, the one of Maatoub, Maameri and co.
2. The Three in One(arabo-berber-musulman) race, same as Ibn Badis, Abdel
Kader and el-Hadj
> > > Why do you want to link them with the ARABS and Islam!, it's totally
against
> > their ideology!..They have no arab and no islam heritage in them, "Il
sont
> > tout simplement IMAZIGHEN", Ibn Khaldun was a Jurist Muslim-MALIKI and
he
> > also practiced suffism..By the ways Suffism was NOT a North Africain
> > creation, it was ARABian!!..>>
>
> Sufism was not Arabian. You really are batting zero.
It is!, just PROVE otherwise..I have the prof that it is..
Fodil
bmadani
Fodil wrote:
>
> Y
> O.K., who practiced Suffism before the arrival of islam?, chaouis?, Kabyles
> or Mouzabite?, maybe the JEWS?, yes they have Kaballa!, remember that the
> jews kept everything for themselves!, and there has never been any jewish
> influence of the N.Africans!, never!!..>>
Jews and Christians.
>
> You said Ibn Khaldune was an amazigh, i.e. either a kabyle, a chaoui,
> Mouzabite or chnoua?, you classified earlier the Amazigh people!..>>
Amazigh are from all north Africa, Fodil, all the way to the Canary
Islands. Algerians are not the only ones that are Amazigh. And the
Spanish, too, have Amazigh ancestry since these people were constantly
migrating into Spain, as well as bringing in huge armies, and not just
during the time of Islam, but for thousands of years.
And I did not say Ibn Khaldoun was Amazigh. I would not have done that
since I can't prove it. It was someone's opinion based on his research,
and he has a right to that opinion, and to have that opinion heard. It
at least makes sense since the man was from the right area. Saying he
was Yemeni is absurd. There is no proof whatsoever, and that is based
purely on mythology. Recent studies indicate that north Africans did not
come from Yemen, and since Ibn Khaldoun never said his parents or
grandparents migrated from there, he was not Yemeni.
>> Questioin: What is the origine of BAGHRIR and el3ssida!?, what about
> berkoukes?, I think that you should concentrate on the cooking and household
> stuff!, for you'll never understand us..Never!..You are trying too hard..>>
I don't have to concentrate on the cooking. I'm married to a chef.
> All this Amazighomania came about to oppose total Arabization.period.
> Otherwise The Kabylo-Kabyles would never say anything..>>
They wouldn't have had to say anything if it wasn't for arabization
since "ALgerian" would have meant anyone from Algeria, whatever their
ethnicity. Therefore, being "ALgerian" would have been the perfect
identity.
>
> If he was an amazigh, he must have been one of your Amazigh-speakers group.
> Either, a Kabyle, a Chaouim M'zab or Sahraoui?, so who was he?, be
> specific?, or maybe an Amazigh from Khmiss Meliana??!!, tell us what kind of
> Amazigh!, I hope that you don't mean he was a jew..>>
Learn who the Amazigh are first. You seem to know very little about them
if that's all you can come up with.
>
> > > > Today, only some Kabylo-Kabyles of Grande Kabylie are Imazighen,>>
False.
> usually the
> > > NON-SEMITIC ones,
they are of a different race than the rest of the
> > > Algerians, and they have a different flag!!>>
More nonsense.
> You need to be reminded that you have NO idea what you are talking about,
> and also some Kabyles are "ARABS" and SEMITIC not Indio-Europeans or
> Whatever their race is!!>>
The language of the Kabyles is not indo-European. "Indo-European" is a
linguistic designation. And you're telling me I don't know what I'm
talking about? You never get anything straight. You throw out terms
without the least idea what they mean.
>> > Sufism was not Arabian. You really are batting zero.
>
> It is!, just PROVE otherwise..I have the prof that it is..>>
You don't have the proof because it is not true. Sufism is as old as
spirituality. It is found in many religions, though it may have a
different name in each case. What makes Muslim Sufism unique is that
celibacy is not necessarily part of it, though it has been for some,
such as it was for Rab'ia of Biskra.
diasp...@my-deja.com
"Fodil" <arkin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Yes, some chaouis should say that they are descendant of Massinias and
> Yughurten, because they ARE!
Geeeeeeeeeee thanks, Godfather:). Why only SOME?
> And they are NOT saying that Ibn Khaldun was CHAOUI!!
No, he was not. Ibn Khaldun was an Arab! That is what he said: Abou Zid
Abderrahmane ibn Mohamed ibn Mohamed ibn Khaldun Wali Eddine el Tounisi
el Hathrami el Ichbili el Maliki.
His ancestors go back to the tribes of Bani Wail of Hathra Mut, Yamen.
> Suffism is originally Arabian!, do you want proof?
Are you taking TERM of CONCEPT ?
--
diaspora.
dz ithalli...dz assa...dz athacha...algeria forever.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Fodil
<diasp...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:88sqfp$1nv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
> "Fodil" <arkin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, some chaouis should say that they are descendant of Massinias and
> > Yughurten, because they ARE!
>
> Geeeeeeeeeee thanks, Godfather:). Why only SOME?
>
Some chaouis, because others are descendant of OKBA Ibnu Nafi3.
>
> > And they are NOT saying that Ibn Khaldun was CHAOUI!!
>
> No, he was not. Ibn Khaldun was an Arab! That is what he said: Abou Zid
> Abderrahmane ibn Mohamed ibn Mohamed ibn Khaldun Wali Eddine el Tounisi
> el Hathrami el Ichbili el Maliki.
> His ancestors go back to the tribes of Bani Wail of Hathra Mut, Yamen.
>
Et voila a True Amazigh not part of the Imazighen people that deny their
heritage.
Diaspora, I wish you tell me that the Chaoui want to erect a statue for
Kahina just "Zkara fi les Imazighen-Arheists-Racist-Zionists" like gouraya,
Yann and co..
> > Suffism is originally Arabian!, do you want proof?
>
> Are you taking TERM of CONCEPT ?
I'm talking ORIGINE, who invented it?, it started in Medina, earlier
Mohamed's companions used to practice suffism....
The Muslims-Arabs introduced it and taught it to the Muslim-berbers, the
berbers did NOT come up with misticism, some adopted it..
Of course yazzidism and other cults got mixed with sufffism, this was part
of the Druz effect, can be seen mainly in Massine's neiberhoods..
Fodil
diasp...@my-deja.com
> > > Yes, some chaouis should say that they are descendant of
Massinias and
> > > Yughurten, because they ARE!
> >
> > Geeeeeeeeeee thanks, Godfather:). Why only SOME?
> >
>
> Some chaouis, because others are descendant of OKBA Ibnu Nafi3.
No, Bouzanzan, Shawis are descedents of Massinissa, Yughurten and nana
el kahina :)
> Et voila a True Amazigh not part of the Imazighen people that deny
their
> heritage.
Tbanlek bark, sawt el 3arab :)
I think ibn Khaldun was a brillant mind. He was ahead of his time. I
would like to claim him as an Amazigh, but he was not. History is
history!
> Diaspora, I wish you tell me that the Chaoui want to erect a statue
for
> Kahina just "Zkara fi les Imazighen-Arheists-Racist-Zionists" like
gouraya,
> Yann and co..
No, the only reason is: she is our nana :)
Eche ul annek(eat your heart), sawt el 3arab :)
> I'm talking ORIGINE, who invented it?, it started in Medina, earlier
> Mohamed's companions used to practice suffism....
>
> The Muslims-Arabs introduced it and taught it to the Muslim-berbers,
the
> berbers did NOT come up with misticism, some adopted it..
> Of course yazzidism and other cults got mixed with sufffism, this was
part
> of the Druz effect, can be seen mainly in Massine's neiberhoods..
I disagree! The concept of mysticism is an old one. It was practiced
by other religions/philosophies.
Khaled Hammadi
Saha Dias ça fait un bail ! ghir el-khir inchallah.
diasp...@my-deja.com a écrit dans le message
<88sqfp$1nv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>
>> And they are NOT saying that Ibn Khaldun was CHAOUI!!
>
>No, he was not. Ibn Khaldun was an Arab! That is what he said: Abou Zid
>Abderrahmane ibn Mohamed ibn Mohamed ibn Khaldun Wali Eddine el Tounisi
>el Hathrami el Ichbili el Maliki.
>His ancestors go back to the tribes of Bani Wail of Hathra Mut, Yamen.
>
Ce que je trouves ridicule personnelement c'est que au moments ou certains
(à juste titre) exige le droit d'etre définit par eux-même et fustige à
quiconque le droit de leur dire qui ils sont et de quelle origine, ils s'en
trouve parmis eux même qui se gene le moins du monde pour classifier Ibn
Khaldoun ou d'autres selon leur désir alors ces gens disent clairement qui
ils sont.
Des je ne comprends rien à la nature humaine.
Salutations Diaspora
Khaled
Fodil
<diasp...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:88t6l6$a0v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Fodil" <arkin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I disagree! The concept of mysticism is an old one. It was practiced
> by other religions/philosophies.
>
I think in Blanca's mind, it's a jewish tradition. The jews do have
something simillar "kaballa", which means to be accepted. The Rabbis do not
recommend it, because there is no Talmud, it's purely spiritual. But Suffist
developped their owm misticism using chants and music from which RAI music
itself evolved!.."Allah ya Allah Moulana wa elWahed Rebbi", even Ibn Khaldun
did his share in it, so did EAK..
Fodil
diasp...@my-deja.com
> Saha Dias ça fait un bail ! ghir el-khir inchallah.
Labass, Allah issalmek. Kunt fi short vacation.
> Ce que je trouves ridicule personnelement c'est que au moments ou
certains
> (à juste titre) exige le droit d'etre définit par eux-même et fustige
à
> quiconque le droit de leur dire qui ils sont et de quelle origine,
ils s'en
> trouve parmis eux même qui se gene le moins du monde pour classifier
Ibn
> Khaldoun ou d'autres selon leur désir alors ces gens disent
clairement qui
> ils sont.
> Des je ne comprends rien à la nature humaine.
I have given up on figuring human nature a long time ago :)
azo charif
Khaled Hammadi <Khaled....@ensigct.fr> wrote in message
news:88t7eg$bav$1...@news.cict.fr...
>
> Saha Dias ça fait un bail ! ghir el-khir inchallah.
>
> <88sqfp$1nv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >
> >
> >> And they are NOT saying that Ibn Khaldun was CHAOUI!!
> >
> >No, he was not. Ibn Khaldun was an Arab! That is what he said: Abou Zid
> >Abderrahmane ibn Mohamed ibn Mohamed ibn Khaldun Wali Eddine el Tounisi
> >el Hathrami el Ichbili el Maliki.
> >His ancestors go back to the tribes of Bani Wail of Hathra Mut, Yamen.
> >
>
>
> (à juste titre) exige le droit d'etre définit par eux-même et fustige à
> quiconque le droit de leur dire qui ils sont et de quelle origine, ils
s'en
> trouve parmis eux même qui se gene le moins du monde pour classifier Ibn
> Khaldoun ou d'autres selon leur désir alors ces gens disent clairement qui
> ils sont.
>
> Des je ne comprends rien à la nature humaine.
>
>
> Khaled
>
>
azo charif
chaoui donc BERBERE PURE et jen suis fier .je considere les arabes de
maghreb comme des freres compatriotes et non pas des ennemis tant quils
respectent mes origines et ma culture.
le grand maghreb nest exclusivement berbere ni arabe il est maghrebin.
maghrebins arabophones berberphones ou francophones,musulmans ou
non-musulmans nous devons tous nous respecter les uns les autres.la
pluralite des langues et des origines maghrebines est une richesse pour la
culture maghrebine.et seul le maghreb existe comme une unite geographique
historique et culturelle sinon politique.les cinq etats qui le composent ne
sont que des entites artificielles.
azo
Fodil <arkin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:_wjs4.25563$Zp1.8...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>
>
> Yes, some chaouis should say that they are descendant of Massinias and
> ARABITE and Islamite!, they are NOT saying "We are pure blooded Imazighen
> culturally and ethnicaly"..The chaouis are talking about their ancient
> civilization and culture to make sure that the kabylo-kabyle-Imazighen do
> NOT monopolize everything..
>
>
>
Kabyles
> or Mouzabite?, maybe the JEWS?, yes they have Kaballa!, remember that the
> jews kept everything for themselves!, and there has never been any jewish
> influence of the N.Africans!, never!!..
>
> Mouzabite or chnoua?, you classified earlier the Amazigh people!..
>
> CHOSE to be who we are..We chose to be Muslims and we chose to adhere to
our
> Arabite', others can choose whatever..
>
> berkoukes?, I think that you should concentrate on the cooking and
household
> stuff!, for you'll never understand us..Never!..You are trying too hard..
>
> Otherwise The Kabylo-Kabyles would never say anything..
>
>
>
>
> bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:38B13614...@worldnet.att.net...
> >
> >
> > Fodil wrote:
> > >
> > > h.
> > > >
> > > It does NOT matter, you know that you are publishing FALSEHOOD!, how
> come
> > > Ibn Khaldun was a Kabyle!!?, maybe IBN rushd was?>>
> >
> > It does not say that Ibn Khaldun was a Kabyle. Don't fabricate.
> >
>
group.
> Either, a Kabyle, a Chaouim M'zab or Sahraoui?, so who was he?, be
> specific?, or maybe an Amazigh from Khmiss Meliana??!!, tell us what kind
of
> Amazigh!, I hope that you don't mean he was a jew..
>
>
> > > NON-SEMITIC ones, they are of a different race than the rest of the
> Arab
> > > is an AMAZIGH!!??,>>
> >
> > You are so happy being an ignorant.
>
> Who else is claiming that arabite and islamite is NOT part of their
> heritage?
>
> >
> > > > What is Kabyle is Kabyle and what is Chnoua is Chnoua!!, what is
> MOUZABITE
> > > is MOUZABITE, and what is chaouis is chaoui..Ti most of us Imazighen
> means
> > > Kabyle and only Kabyle!,>>
> >
> > Then "most" of you need to be educated.
>
> NO, we are all DIVIDED into many groups!, didn't you say so earlier!!.
>
> and also some Kabyles are "ARABS" and SEMITIC not Indio-Europeans or
> Whatever their race is!!
>
>
>
> >
>
> It is!, just PROVE otherwise..I have the prof that it is..
>
>
>
Fodil
azo charif <a...@chari.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:89vkfo$8ro$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> fodil et les autres berberophobes arretez de dire nimporte quoi moi je
suis
> chaoui donc BERBERE PURE et jen suis fier .je considere les arabes de
> maghreb comme des freres compatriotes et non pas des ennemis tant quils
Ya azo!!..Didn't you tell me once on fr.soc.religion that you, azo cherif is
a berber from EUROPE!?, since when the chaouis became berbers from
europe!!?..
Non, je regrette, les berberes pures sont les TOUAREG .
Fodil
azo charif
or she can of a berber or a indian or watever origins ..use a bit of logic
in your posts son and try to THINK before you BLINK.
Regardsnews:dSUw4.6664$xe1.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Fodil
> if someone was born in europe then he or she is a european no? and still
he
> or she can of a berber or a indian or watever origins ..use a bit of
logic
> in your posts son and try to THINK before you BLINK.
> Regards
> azo
Asmma ya azo!, salem 3alaykum wa aala min tabaa el-berberia!!
You said in your own words: "The Imazighen are NOT only the kabyles, but I,
azo cherif is a berber from europe!", as if there exist european berbers!!.
You didn't tell me that regadless of the fact that you were born in Europe,
you are still atached to your roots..(3ala kuli hal mabrook 3alik). You made
it sound, being in French forum, that some europeans are berbers also, not
only N.Africans!!..Next time you have to be more logical..i.e.
A Berber fom Europe is FALSE
A Berber born in Europe is TRUE, taking the fact that he/she is born from
both berber parents..
Btw what does azo mean?
Fodil
azo charif
tout simplement IMAZIGHEN", Ibn Khaldun was a Jurist Muslim-MALIKI
> and
> > >
first ibn khaldoun spoke very well berbere as well as arabic secondly if he
is not fully berbere in blood he was a berberophile as you can tell from his
writings(his famous saying was:itha orrebet kherrebet )he was also a ufi and
buried in a sufi cemetry in cairo according to 'the oxford companion to the
mind' dictionnary
>>
>Suffism was NOT a North Africain
> > > > > creation, it was ARABian!!..>>
> > > >
> > > > Sufism was not Arabian. You really are batting zero.
> > >
> > > It is!, just PROVE otherwise..I have the prof that it is..
sufism is a mysticism that existed in every culture.there was berber
mysticism before the arabs which is a combination of neoplatonism and old
pagan religion.saint augustin dhippone had been initiated into a berber
mysticism and his mystical teachings are derived from it and incorporated
later in the roman church where the cult of the saint was adopted.
so sufism was a a synthesis of greek berber persian indian and arabic
mysticisms and as you know well MOST OF THE CLASSICAL SUFIS ARE PERSIANS,
TURKS ,CENTRAL ASIANS ,INDIANS,AFRICANS, ANDALUSIANS, AND MAGHREBIS and
there are few if any of sufis from arabia despite the fact that the sufi
terminology is in arabic-- that is because arabic was the language of the
empire-state.
> > >
> > > Fodil
.
Fodil
> tout simplement IMAZIGHEN", Ibn Khaldun was a Jurist Muslim-MALIKI
> > and
> > > >
>
> first ibn khaldoun spoke very well berbere as well as arabic secondly if
he
> is not fully berbere in blood he was a berberophile as you can tell from
his
> writings(his famous saying was:itha orrebet kherrebet )he was also a ufi
and
> buried in a sufi cemetry in cairo according to 'the oxford companion to
the
> mind' dictionnary
Spoke very well berber??!, which one?, tashlhit (soussi), he was born in
Tunisia..
"Idha ourbet khribet", he was talking about the bedoins berbers that came
from Egypt to
do more dammage. don't forget that the berbers kept on fighting each others
for over 60 years with non-stop, while Andalusia was flourishing..
BTW, those berbers were mostly ARAB(ophones) and it's a fact, Jack!
History is repeating itself..You can re-create history, but you can't go
back to it..Ibn Khaldune was a MAGHREBIN and ARAB(ophone) and not an
Amazigh, and there is no doubt about it..
Suffism is an order of ISLAM, some are sunnis others are shites..The other
religions have nothing to do with Islam. The Suffi-Islam started during the
Prophet time, some of his companions praticed it..
Suffi(tassawouf) is an ARABic word, and if it's ARABic it is ARAB, it is the
way it is and it is the way it has always been, and that is a fact, Jack!!
Before Islam, some berbers were christiaans, others were jews and the
majority were pagans!..All pagans and the majority of christians under
Kuceila became Muslims, others and mainly jews submitted around 1100 A.C.,
once IBN TUMART made his FUROU3 and his THREE pillars..
Fodil
> >>
>
azo charif
> > tout simplement IMAZIGHEN", Ibn Khaldun was a Jurist Muslim-MALIKI
> > > and
> > > > >
> >
> > first ibn khaldoun spoke very well berbere as well as arabic secondly if
> he
> > is not fully berbere in blood he was a berberophile as you can tell from
> his
> > writings(his famous saying was:itha orrebet kherrebet )he was also a ufi
> and
> > buried in a sufi cemetry in cairo according to 'the oxford companion to
> the
> > mind' dictionnary
>
> Spoke very well berber??!, which one?, tashlhit (soussi), he was born in
> Tunisia..
>
> "Idha ourbet khribet", he was talking about the bedoins berbers that came
> from Egypt to
berbers in egypt beni hilal are savage arabs wo came originally from
arabian desert
> do more dammage. don't forget that the berbers kept on fighting each
others
> for over 60 years with non-stop, while Andalusia was flourishing..
berbers who founded the faimite empire and built the first university in the
world of al azhar and nor your hilali boulhouli ancesters who destroyed
everything on their way
> BTW, those berbers were mostly ARAB(ophones) and it's a fact, Jack!
> History is repeating itself..You can re-create history, but you can't go
> back to it..Ibn Khaldune was a MAGHREBIN and ARAB(ophone) and not an
> Amazigh, and there is no doubt about it..
>
> Suffism is an order of ISLAM, some are sunnis others are shites..The other
> religions have nothing to do with Islam. The Suffi-Islam started during
the
> Prophet time, some of his companions praticed it..
sohrwardi el maktool .th nnun el misri jamii and others.go and read them
first before making your erroneously wild claims.
>
> Suffi(tassawouf) is an ARABic word, and if it's ARABic it is ARAB, it is
the
> way it is and it is the way it has always been, and that is a fact, Jack!!
in hebrew ain souf which means the trenscendant and in greek sophos which
means wisdom.
Fodil
> > > tout simplement IMAZIGHEN", Ibn Khaldun was a Jurist Muslim-MALIKI
> > > > and
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > first ibn khaldoun spoke very well berbere as well as arabic secondly
if
> > he
> > > is not fully berbere in blood he was a berberophile as you can tell
from
> > his
> > > writings(his famous saying was:itha orrebet kherrebet )he was also a
ufi
> > and
> > > buried in a sufi cemetry in cairo according to 'the oxford companion
to
> > the
> > > mind' dictionnary
> >
> > Spoke very well berber??!, which one?, tashlhit (soussi), he was born in
> > Tunisia..
> >
> > "Idha ourbet khribet", he was talking about the bedoins berbers that
came
> > from Egypt to
> are you nuts berberes from egypt ..what you talking about there aint any
> berbers in egypt beni hilal are savage arabs wo came originally from
> arabian desert
I'm telling that Banu Hillal and banu sulamyman are originally berbers from
Petite kabylie, went to Egypt with the Fatimids and then they were sent back
by the Fatimids to do more damage. some of them were fierce worriors, others
were poets..
They restored peace after a bloody war, the war was already going on between
the different berber tribes, I gave you the history already..
Banu Hillal tartagu dnia!..They were buddy-buddy of the KOTAMA berbers, the
Fatimids of Bejaia, CO INC...Read your history..
As far as SUFFISM is concerned, there was NO SUFFISM before TASSAWEF!, it's
arabic. There were other simillar religious pratices, but not the
Islamic-Suffism!, No Jose'!..Islamic-Suffi has its own style, and it ain't
Kabbala or devil worshiping, like yazzidism...Sufism lost its reputation,
because many other cults got mixed in with it..
Fodil
bmadani
Fodil wrote:
>
> As far as SUFFISM is concerned, there was NO SUFFISM before TASSAWEF!, it's
> arabic.
It's not Arabic. "Sufism" comes from Greek.
There were other simillar religious pratices, but not the
> Islamic-Suffism!, No Jose'!..Islamic-Suffi has its own style, and it ain't
> Kabbala or devil worshiping, like yazzidism...Sufism lost its reputation,
> because many other cults got mixed in with it..
>
> Fodil
It is simply an evolvement of earlier spirituality, which had its
Christian, Jewish, and even pagan influences, and which was modernized
into Islam. But it has more similarity to earlier spirituality than to
orthodox Islam.
bmadani
azo charif wrote:
>
>
> sufism is a mysticism that existed in every culture.there was berber
> mysticism before the arabs which is a combination of neoplatonism and old
> pagan religion.saint augustin dhippone had been initiated into a berber
> mysticism and his mystical teachings are derived from it and incorporated
> later in the roman church where the cult of the saint was adopted.
> so sufism was a a synthesis of greek berber persian indian and arabic
> mysticisms and as you know well MOST OF THE CLASSICAL SUFIS ARE PERSIANS,
> TURKS ,CENTRAL ASIANS ,INDIANS,AFRICANS, ANDALUSIANS, AND MAGHREBIS and
> there are few if any of sufis from arabia despite the fact that the sufi
> terminology is in arabic-- that is because arabic was the language of the
> empire-state.
Excellent, Azo. Thank you. And I would add that the Arabs of Arabia
don't even consider it Arab or Islamic. It's considered by many as
bid3a.
Fodil
Bla! Bla! Bla! Bla!..Bla!,,Bla!!..Bla!!..Bla!!..Blablbala!..
What was it called before the word SUFFISM..
The word Suffism is an ARABIC word and NOT a greek word, "Tassawef"..What is
the GREEK word for suffism??
Fodil
bmadani
Fodil wrote:
>
> Suffi(tassawouf) is an ARABic word, and if it's ARABic it is ARAB, it is the
> way it is and it is the way it has always been, and that is a fact, Jack!!
That is disputed. Some insist the word "Sufi" is from the Greek, not
from the Arabic word for wool. There is a book on the subject by
Annemarie Schimmel. I forget its name, but it goes into the various
theories about the origin of the word. She's a proponent of the Arabic
origin, however, even though she says that the practice originated in
Persia.
Nevertheless, the origin of a word as far as vocabulary goes is not
proof of its origin among the original speakers of the language.
bmadani
azo charif wrote:
>
> are you nuts berberes from egypt ..what you talking about there aint any
> berbers in egypt beni hilal are savage arabs wo came originally from
> arabian desert
> > do more dammage.
Sahit, Azo :)
I agreed with everything in your post except for the above. There were
berbers in the Siwa in Egypt. It is even one of the theories that the
Amazigh may have originated from there. There are those that believe the
Beni Hilal were arabophone berbers, but there are different stories, and
what is correct is difficult to know at this point.
respectfully,
Blanca
Fodil
O.K., it's greek, and they practice suffism in greek language..
You missing the point, Suffism lost its reputaion because of people like you
that introduced foreign additives to Islam, Suffism is an Islamic extension,
until some started to "think" that it is foreign, therefore it became more
or less as "bid3a"!.
Some "Muslims" are called "devil worshipers", it's part of Yazidism, maybe
you are just confused, as usual.
Fodil
bmadani
Fodil wrote:
>
> bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:38CD45D1...@worldnet.att.net...
> >
> >
> > Fodil wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > Suffi(tassawouf) is an ARABic word, and if it's ARABic it is ARAB, it is
> the
> > > way it is and it is the way it has always been, and that is a fact,
> Jack!!
> >
> > That is disputed. Some insist the word "Sufi" is from the Greek, not
> > from the Arabic word for wool. There is a book on the subject by
> > Annemarie Schimmel. I forget its name, but it goes into the various
> > theories about the origin of the word. She's a proponent of the Arabic
> > origin, however, even though she says that the practice originated in
> > Persia.
> >
> > Nevertheless, the origin of a word as far as vocabulary goes is not
> > proof of its origin among the original speakers of the language.
>
> O.K., it's greek, and they practice suffism in greek language..
>
> You missing the point, Suffism lost its reputaion because of people like you
> that introduced foreign additives to Islam, Suffism is an Islamic extension,
> until some started to "think" that it is foreign, therefore it became more
> or less as "bid3a"!.
You don't know what you're talking about.
>
> Some "Muslims" are called "devil worshipers", it's part of Yazidism, maybe
> you are just confused, as usual.
>
> Fodil
I'm not confused, but you are way off, as usual.
995522
<bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>Fodil wrote:
>>
>
>> As far as SUFFISM is concerned, there was NO SUFFISM before
TASSAWEF!, it's
>> arabic.
>
>It's not Arabic. "Sufism" comes from Greek.
Bmdni,
That's bull,you're always backing the zionist by denying Muslim
historical facts,Sufism is an arabic word.
> There were other simillar religious pratices, but not the
>> Islamic-Suffism!, No Jose'!..Islamic-Suffi has its own style,
and it ain't
>> Kabbala or devil worshiping, like yazzidism...Sufism lost its
reputation,
>> because many other cults got mixed in with it..
>>
>> Fodil
>
>It is simply an evolvement of earlier spirituality, which had
its
>Christian, Jewish, and even pagan influences, and which was
modernized
>into Islam. But it has more similarity to earlier spirituality
than to
>orthodox Islam.
>
>
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
azo charif
>
> >
> It is simply an evolvement of earlier spirituality, which had its
> Christian, Jewish, and even pagan influences, and which was modernized
> into Islam. But it has more similarity to earlier spirituality than to
> orthodox Islam.
many people of many traditions and a synthesised spirituallity came into
being as a result..many classcal sufis stated that sufism predated islam
for example awais el qarni was holding a sufi school before and during the
time of mohammedan revelation in southern arabia and he never met mohammed
in his life although he outlived him.
Sohrwardi the murdered sufi stated in his 'hikmet el ishraq' that socrates,
plato ,hermes the thrice,pythgores and the boudda were ancient sufi
teachers.this bold statement of his cost him his life .he was executed for
apostasy like many other sufis under the oulema's fatwas.
for more details on this see:
-keshf el mehjoob by el hujwiri original in persian
-baharistan by jami original INpersian
-hikmet el eishraq original in arabic
-the sufis and the way of the sufi original IN english ishk bookservice
usa.
regards
azo
> Fodil wrote:
> >
>
> > As far as SUFFISM is concerned, there was NO SUFFISM before TASSAWEF!,
it's
> > arabic.
>
> It's not Arabic. "Sufism" comes from Greek.
>
azo charif
> The word Suffism is an ARABIC word and NOT a greek word, "Tassawef"..What
is
> the GREEK word for suffism??
>
name because has intiatory meanings in three words belonging to the 3
greatest languages of the ancient near east greek arabic and hebrew:
in greek:'sophos' means wisdom
in arabic we have suf =wool safa= purity safwa= piety
in hebrew we have 'ain souf' for the 'the transcendent'.
also by using 'hissab el jamal' a coding system used by sufi poets we get
the word 'el hikma el ilahia'=theosophy' by decoding the
word'ettaswwaf'.theosophy is the greek name for sufism.
references:
-the sufis by i shah original english
-el maksad el aksa by nafassi original persian
-keshf el mehjoob el hujwiri original persian
so stop arguing just for argument sake.
azo
>
> bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:38CCCC92...@worldnet.att.net...
> >
> >
> > Fodil wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > As far as SUFFISM is concerned, there was NO SUFFISM before TASSAWEF!,
> it's
> > > arabic.
> >
> > It's not Arabic. "Sufism" comes from Greek.
> >
> > There were other simillar religious pratices, but not the
> > > Islamic-Suffism!, No Jose'!..Islamic-Suffi has its own style, and it
> ain't
> > > Kabbala or devil worshiping, like yazzidism...Sufism lost its
> reputation,
> > > because many other cults got mixed in with it..
> > >
> > > Fodil
> >
> > It is simply an evolvement of earlier spirituality, which had its
> > Christian, Jewish, and even pagan influences, and which was modernized
> > into Islam. But it has more similarity to earlier spirituality than to
> > orthodox Islam.
>
> Bla! Bla! Bla! Bla!..Bla!,,Bla!!..Bla!!..Bla!!..Blablbala!..
>
> What was it called before the word SUFFISM..
>
> Fodil
>
>
>
azo charif
bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message > I agreed with
everything in your post except for the above. There were
> berbers in the Siwa in Egypt. It is even one of the theories that the
> Amazigh may have originated from there.
>There are those that believe the
> Beni Hilal were arabophone berbers, but there are different stories, and
> what is correct is difficult to know at this point.
emmigrated first to egypt before being sent to maghreb by the fatimids those
kutamas who accompanied el muaiz to cairo stayed there and never went to the
south or returned home.
because of the barbarity of the hilalis the arabs tried to call them berbers
as usual so as to blame others for their atrocities according to this
dictonn:'give a dog a bad name and hang him '.
i havent read the whole works of ibn khaldun and if you did please let me
know what is his view on this i know that other ancient arab historians
like ibn rashid ibn battuta and el messaudi believed that hilalis were arab
aghah=pure arabs.
many thanks.
regards
azo
>
> respectfully,
> Blancanews:38CD47AD...@worldnet.att.net...news:4Cbz4.13640$qa.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
azo charif
Some "Muslims" are called "devil worshipers", it's part of Yazidism, maybe
> you are just confused, as usual.
>
> Fodil
yazidis is a cult which was originally a sufi school or tariqa .it was
founded by a sufi sheikh named aadi ibn el mussafir .after his death the
school was taken over by some agent of the omawyade khalifa and turned into
a religeo- political cult by modifying its sufi teachings.
el ghazali in' his kmia essaada in persian' spoke well of aadi and also
described how a genuine mystical teaching can deteriorate into a cult giving
the example of yazidism.
fodil for you the truth any thing that supports your arabosaaudi
agenda...any thing that doesnt is false..
your masters the saudis will be very satisfied with you.
azo
>
> bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:38CD45D1e .72F24E04@worldnet.att.net...
azo charif
> > > you are just confused, as usual.
regards
azo
> Fodil
>
> Fodil wrote:
> >
> > bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:38CD45D1...@worldnet.att.net...
> > >
> > >
> > > Fodil wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Suffi(tassawouf) is an ARABic word, and if it's ARABic it is ARAB,
it is
> > the
> > > > way it is and it is the way it has always been, and that is a fact,
> > Jack!!
> > >
> > > That is disputed. Some insist the word "Sufi" is from the Greek, not
> > > from the Arabic word for wool. There is a book on the subject by
> > > Annemarie Schimmel. I forget its name, but it goes into the various
> > > theories about the origin of the word. She's a proponent of the Arabic
> > > origin, however, even though she says that the practice originated in
> > > Persia.
> > >
> > > Nevertheless, the origin of a word as far as vocabulary goes is not
> > > proof of its origin among the original speakers of the language.
> >
> > O.K., it's greek, and they practice suffism in greek language..
> >
> > You missing the point, Suffism lost its reputaion because of people like
you
> > that introduced foreign additives to Islam, Suffism is an Islamic
extension,
> > until some started to "think" that it is foreign, therefore it became
more
> > or less as "bid3a"!.
>
>
>
> >
azo charif
> > Excellent, Azo. Thank you. And I would add that the Arabs of Arabia
> don't even consider it Arab or Islamic. It's considered by many as
> bid3a.
translation from persian:
''to arab bedouins higher knowledge of sufism is too subltil for them to
comprehend''
by nassir khusru.
by the way the wahhabis the forrunners of saudis have banned any kind of
sufism in the beginnig of this century ..
ben badis the araboislamic did some thing similar by attacking all sufis
both the cultists and the true sufis in the thirties..
regards
azo
>
> azo charif wrote:
> >
> >
> > sufism is a mysticism that existed in every culture.there was be
> > mysticism before the arabs which is a combination of neoplatonism and
old
> > pag ian religion.saint augustin dhippone had been initiated into a
bmadani
azo charif wrote:
>
> hi Blanca i wholeheartedly agree with you.... the empire of islam has united
> many people of many traditions and a synthesised spirituallity came into
> being as a result..many classcal sufis stated that sufism predated islam
> for example awais el qarni was holding a sufi school before and during the
> time of mohammedan revelation in southern arabia and he never met mohammed
> in his life although he outlived him.
> Sohrwardi the murdered sufi stated in his 'hikmet el ishraq' that socrates,
> plato ,hermes the thrice,pythgores and the boudda were ancient sufi
> teachers.this bold statement of his cost him his life .he was executed for
> apostasy like many other sufis under the oulema's fatwas.
> for more details on this see:
> -keshf el mehjoob by el hujwiri original in persian
> -baharistan by jami original INpersian
> -hikmet el eishraq original in arabic
> -the sufis and the way of the sufi original IN english ishk bookservice
> usa.
> regards
> azo
Thanks, Azo. Are the Persian books in English? Or at least in Arabic or
French? I don't know a word of Persian. Who wrote the Sufis and the Way
of the Sufi. I think I've read those.
bmadani
azo charif wrote:
>
> references:
> -the sufis by i shah original english
> -el maksad el aksa by nafassi original persian
> -keshf el mehjoob el hujwiri original persian
My question answered.
>
> so stop arguing just for argument sake.
> azo
LOL, Azo. That's like asking him to stop breathing :)))
bmadani
azo charif wrote:
>
> I still believe that beni hilal and beni selim are arabian desert tribes who
> emmigrated first to egypt before being sent to maghreb by the fatimids those
> kutamas who accompanied el muaiz to cairo stayed there and never went to the
> south or returned home.
> because of the barbarity of the hilalis the arabs tried to call them berbers
> as usual so as to blame others for their atrocities according to this
> dictonn:'give a dog a bad name and hang him '.
> i havent read the whole works of ibn khaldun and if you did please let me
> know what is his view on this i know that other ancient arab historians
> like ibn rashid ibn battuta and el messaudi believed that hilalis were arab
> aghah=pure arabs.
> many thanks.
> regards
If I remember correctly, the banu hilal are considered Arab by Ibn
Khaldun. The arguments against their being Arab, that I have seen, are
more current. However, you may be right and they emigrated to Egypt and
then moved on to the west. I think that part of the reason it is
believed that they were not Arab is because of the lack of genetic proof
of much Arab existence in north Africa. They were suppose to be a large
enough tribe that they should have left their genes around in abundance,
but the strong genes among north Africans that genetists (or whatever
they are called) are finding are Amazigh.
bmadani
azo charif wrote:
>
> bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:38CD4284...@worldnet.att.net...
> > > Excellent, Azo. Thank you. And I would add that the Arabs of Arabia
> > don't even consider it Arab or Islamic. It's considered by many as
> > bid3a.
> ''dar araban khuda sufi'st ma bi fahman''
> translation from persian:
> ''to arab bedouins higher knowledge of sufism is too subltil for them to
> comprehend''
> by nassir khusru.
Salaam, Azul, Hi, Azo,
I had not heard that before :))
>
> by the way the wahhabis the forrunners of saudis have banned any kind of
> sufism in the beginnig of this century ..
Exactly.
> ben badis the araboislamic did some thing similar by attacking all sufis
> both the cultists and the true sufis in the thirties..
> regards
> azo
That's correct. He was trying to "purify" Islam, in other words, take
the Algerian out of it.
Fodil
He proved nothing!, he just proved that it is ARABIC and it is.., it is not
jewish!, hebrew was never used in that era, hebrew died in the firt century
A.C.
Fodil
bmadani
Hebrew still existed religiously. Besides, a language does not need to
be "alive" to influence new words. Whenever we need a new word today,
and not just in English, but in French, Spanish, etc., we go to Latin or
ancient Greek, both languages no longer spoken.
Fodil
>
> Fodil <arkin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:jjcz4.13733$qa.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...>
maybe
> > you are just confused, as usual.
> >
> > Fodil
>
> founded by a sufi sheikh named aadi ibn el mussafir .after his death the
> school was taken over by some agent of the omawyade khalifa and turned
into
> a religeo- political cult by modifying its sufi teachings.
> el ghazali in' his kmia essaada in persian' spoke well of aadi and also
> described how a genuine mystical teaching can deteriorate into a cult
giving
> the example of yazidism.
> fodil for you the truth any thing that supports your arabosaaudi
> agenda...any thing that doesnt is false..
> your masters the saudis will be very satisfied with you.
> azo
> >
And to you, everything that support you jewish or european garbalogy is the
truth..
I never think of saoudis when I think of Arabs, Saudis influence stopped in
632 A.C..
I already wrote about the above, and i'm not in the mood.. Yazzidism was
reffered to us "devil worship", it was druze creation..
Fodil
> > bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:38CD45D1e .72F24E04@worldnet.att.net...
azo charif
azo charif
> -keshf el mehjoob by el hujwiri original in persian
> > > -baharistan by jami original INpersian
> > > -hikmet el eishraq original in arabic
> > > -the sufis and the way of the sufi original IN english ishk
bookservice
> > > usa.
> > > regards
> > > azo
> >
> > Thanks, Azo. Are the Persian books in English? Or at least in Arabic or
> > French? I don't know a word of Persian. Who wrote the Sufis and the Way
> > of the Sufi. I think I've read those.
>
hi Blanca i read all these books in their original language: as to' hikmet
el ishraq' i had a manuscript i bought in southern turkey but there is an
english translation by octagon press in london .'baharistan' in 'four sufi
classics 'is listed below so is''the sufis' and 'the way of the sufi as well
other persian sufi classics in english. i dont know if there is any other
than persian version of 'keshf el mahjoub'.
some of the following books you may be able to borrow from your local
library .check this site for more sufi and sufi scientific related works:
www.ishkbooks.com
regards
azo
ISHK Book Service
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
THE SUFIS
by Idries Shah
First published in 1964, Idries Shah's definitive work, The Sufis,
completely overturned Western misconceptions of Sufism, revealing a great
spiritual and psychological tradition encompassing many of the world's
greatest thinkers: Sadi, Attar, Rumi, Ibn El-Arabi, El-Ghazali, Omar
Khayyam, Francis of Assisi and many others.
The astonishing impact of Sufism on the development of Western civilization
from the seventh century is traced through the work of Roger Bacon, John of
the Cross, Raymond Lully, and Chaucer. Many of the greatest traditions,
ideas and discoveries of the West are traced to the teachings and writings
of Sufi masters working centuries ago.
But The Sufis is far more than an historical account. In the tradition of
the great Sufi classics, the deeper appeal of this remarkable book is in its
ability to function as an active instrument of instruction, in a way that is
so clearly relevant to our time and culture.
"A seminal book of the century"
-- Washington Post
"The most comprehensive, informative work on Sufism."
-- New York Times Book Review
"Incredibly rich in scope and fine detail."
-- Psychology Today
"An astonishing book. The Sufis must be the biggest society of sensible men
there has ever been on earth."
-- Ted Hughes, The Listener
If Sufism is an adventure, a goal of human
perfection attained by reviewing and awakening
within humanity a higher organ of fulfillment,
completion, destiny, why is it so difficult to
assess, to locate in time, to pin down? It is
precisely because Sufism is carried out in every
community and at every time that it has such
diversity -- and this is one of its secrets.
___________
The Sufis by Idries Shah: Octagon Press, London, p. 50. Copyright © 1964,
1977 by The Estate of Idries Shah.
Sufis believe that, expressed in one way,
humanity is evolving to a certain destiny. We are
all taking part in that evolution. Organs come
into being as a result of the need for specific
organs (Rumi). The human being's organism is
producing a new complex of organs in response to
such a need. In this age of the transcending of
time and space, the complex of organs is concerned
with the transcending of time and space. What
ordinary people regard as sporadic and occasional
bursts of telepathic or prophetic power are seen
by the Sufi as nothing less than the first
stirrings of these same organs. The difference
between all evolution up to date and the present
need for evolution is that for the past ten
thousand years or so we have been given the
possibility of a conscious evolution. So essential
is this more rarefied evolution that our future
depends upon it.
___________
The Sufis by Idries Shah: Octagon Press, London, p. 54. Copyright © 1964,
1977 by The Estate of Idries Shah.
THE WAY OF THE SUFI
by Idries Shah
Intended to illustrate something of the richness and range of Sufi ideas,
this remarkable book contains extracts, verses, anecdotes, epigrams,
lectures, contemplation-themes and teaching stories culled from such
classical authors as Rumi, El-Ghazali and Omar Khayyam as well as sources
best known to Sufis themselves.
The Way of the Sufi offers the reader an introductory course of study,
beginning with a review of special problems facing the Western student. Not
least of these is the fact that Sufi writings are instrumental in function
rather than didactic or just literature. Most are written to meet the needs
of a specific community at a particular time, rather than to be universally
or perennially read.
AN ANSWER OF JESUS
Some Israelites reviled Jesus one day as he was
walking through their part of town. But he
answered by repeating prayers in their name.
Someone said to him: 'You prayed for these men,
did you not feel incensed against them?'
He answered: 'I could spend only of what I had in
my purse.'
___________
The Way of the Sufi by Idries Shah: Octagon Press, London, p. 63. Copyright
© 1968, 1980 by The Estate of Idries Shah.
TALES OF THE DERVISHES
Teaching-stories of Sufi Masters over the past thousand years
by Idries Shah
A mysterious chest is buried unopened. A wondrous caravan brings fortune to
a simple cobbler. An outcast princess creates a new life in the wilderness.
Some of the 78 tales in this remarkable book first appeared in print over a
thousand years ago, others are medieval classics. Yet, each has a special
relevance for us on the eve of the 21st century. All are told with Idries
Shah's distinctive wit and grace and the author's own commentary notes.
These are teaching stories in the Sufi tradition. Those who probe beyond the
surface will find multiple meanings to challenge assumptions and foster new
ways of thinking and perceiving.
Tales of the Dervishes is essential reading for anyone interested in Sufi
thought, the significance and history of tales, or simply superb
entertainment.
In accordance with the local culture, the
audience and the requirements of the Teaching,
Sufis have traditionally made use of appropriate
selections from their unparalleled riches of
transmitted lore.
In Sufi circles, it is customary for students to
soak themselves in stories set for their study, so
that the internal dimensions may be unlocked by
the teaching master as and when the candidate is
judged ready for the experiences which they
bring.
-- From the Preface
"An extraordinary psychological test, in that it predicts the complete range
of possible responses to itself."
-- Sunday Telegraph
"Don't be misled if Shah's transmission of the story holds surprises."
-- Tribune
"Tells how people judge by appearances."
-- Evening News
"BEYOND WORDS -- it is not a literary joke...Idries Shah, the writer, is of
course neither a joker nor a crank, but a distinguished authority on Sufism,
some of whose other books have been hailed as 'Book of the Year'..."
-- The Observer
FOUR SUFI CLASSICS
Jami's "Salaman and Absal" translated by Edward Fitzgerald,
Al-Ghazzali's "The Niche for Lights" translated by W.H.T. Gairdner,
Hakim Sanai's "The Way of the Seeker" and Jami's "The Abode of Spring,"
Translated and abridged by David L. Pendlebury
Introduction by Idries Shah
Ghazzali, Sanai and Jami, authors of the four Sufi classics presented here
are among the very greatest names in the Sufi tradition.
These four classical expositions of Sufi thought and experience give a
cross-section of traditional instruction materials studied in dervish
schools-but which are also a part of the literature of the Middle East.
The dates of these translations range from the famous Salaman, published in
1856, to Pendlebury's rendering from The Way of the Seeker, completed in
1979. The introduction to this volume provides informative background as to
the intent of the various works and observations on the translations from a
Sufi point of view.
THE BOSTAN OF SAADI (The Orchard) Books I and II
Translated from the Persian by Mirza Aqil-Hussain, Barlas
Saadi's BOSTAN is one of the greatest of all Sufi Classics. Together with
his GULISTAN, these two books are regarded as supreme accomplishments of
both literature and Sufi thought.
THE ROSE GARDEN
Sheikh Muslihu-d-Din Saadi of Shiraz
translated by Edward R. Eastwick
Saadi's Gulistan, The Rose Garden, is both one of the best-known of the
Sufi classics and a major work of Persian literature. From its creation in
the first half of the thirteenth century this work has attained a popularity
in the East which is unsurpassed. To this day it is quoted by school
children and scholars alike.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
azo charif <a...@chari.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:...
bmadani
azo charif
> reffered to us "devil worship", it was druze creation..
>
> Fodil
birth of druzisme .yazidsme was created during the end of the omawiyades
wheras the druz cult created during the reign of the fatimid calif el hakim
billah .he went into disappearance in the mountains of syria and and the
locals under the influence and propaganda of his dai addarraz divinised him
and believed in him as the divine manifestation..
yazidisme was called devil worshiper because theyr supposed to worship the
peacock angel which is taken as the fallen angel or devil.
as you are told before:
nim ilmi khatri yesdjan.
=half knowledge is danger to your -floppy- mind.
ya laarubi ya essauudi.
regards
azo
Fodil <arkin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:urXz4.3748$Nn6.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> azo charif <a...@chari.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > bmadani <bma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
Fodil
Ya el-kawed de azo, I told you that I'm not in the mood to discuss your
garbalogy, I already wrote about this and you just proved me right..
Ya el-QAWED, the saoudis are NOT the ARABS..They are from Saoud family...
Why don't you explain to us how the Berbers learned MUSIC?
Fodil
azo charif <a...@chari.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8apk08$jko$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
azo charif
>
> Ya el-kawed de azo, I told you that I'm not in the mood to discuss your
> garbalogy, I already wrote about this and you just proved me right..
>
> Fodil
all along in the wrong and you wanted to admit it but you dont want to
loose face..i understand that..
azo
azo charif
> -keshf el mehjoob by el hujwiri original in persian
> > > > > -baharistan by jami original INpersian
> > > > > -hikmet el eishraq original in arabic
> > > > > -the sufis and the way of the sufi original IN english ishk
> > bookservice
> > > > > usa.
> > > > > regards
> > > > > azo
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Azo. Are the Persian books in English? Or at least in Arabic
or
> > > > French? I don't know a word of Persian. Who wrote the Sufis and the
Way
> > > > of the Sufi. I think I've read those.
hi Blanca i ve just come across a review of 'hikmet el ishraq 'in french
below but i couldnt find the exact address of the publisher ..i try to get
you the address of octagon press in london where they have it along many
good other sufi classics in english.
regards
azo
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Le Livre de la Sagesse Orientale(Hikmat al-Ishrâq) de Sohravardï
Commentaires de Qotboddïn Shîrâzî et Mollaâ Sadrâ Shîrâzî, Traduction et
notes par Henry Corbin, établies et introduites par Christian Jambet.
Verdier, Collection « Islam spirituel » dirigée par Christian Jambet, 1987.
220 F
Voici le chef-d'ouvre de Sohravardî, mort à Alep, à l'âge de trente-six
ans, victime de l'intolérance, en 587/1191. Il s'exprime une expérience
extatique de Dieu, « Lumière des Lumières », dévoile dans l'univers sensible
les multiples miroirs des Intelligences et des Ames.
Il ressuscite la sagesse de l'Iran zoroastrien et, fidèle au platonisme,
fonde en métaphysique le sentiment gnostique de la vie : la Ténèbre, les
substances qui « portent en elles nuit et mort » s'opposent aux Lumières
angéliques. Cette philosophie dramatique de l'existence s'achève en un
magnifique chant de l'âme, en l'une des plus puissantes théories de la
béatitude.
Ce livre est, sans conteste, un des monuments de la philosophie en terre
d'islam. Le lecteur trouvera ici, en outre, les deux commentaires qu'en ont
fait Qotboddîn Shîrâzî (VII/XIIIe s.) et Mollâ Sadrâ Shîrazî (XI/XVIIe s.),
lui-même le plus grand philosophe iranien.
Henri Corbin fut l'hôte ultime de la « sagesse illuminative » de
Sohravardi. Sa traduction commentée est la reprise vivante d'une pensée
mystique qui, selon lui, est au cour de notre présent.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Khaled Hammadi
bmadani a écrit dans le message <38D03F54...@worldnet.att.net>...
>
>
>
>If I remember correctly, the banu hilal are considered Arab by Ibn
>Khaldun. The arguments against their being Arab, that I have seen, are
>more current. However, you may be right and they emigrated to Egypt and
>then moved on to the west. I think that part of the reason it is
>believed that they were not Arab is because of the lack of genetic proof
>of much Arab existence in north Africa.
So that's it !
Sorry Blanca In the name of my field there is a word "chemical" : When i
hear or read in news this kind of "proof" i smile :o))
Khaled Hammadi
bmadani a écrit dans le message <38D04018...@worldnet.att.net>...
>
>> ben badis the araboislamic did some thing similar by attacking all sufis
>> both the cultists and the true sufis in the thirties..
>> regards
>> azo
>
>That's correct. He was trying to "purify" Islam, in other words, take
>the Algerian out of it.
aaaaaaaan3am ah sidi !
3ich tchouf 3ich tasma3 !
C'est pour quand ta prochaine biographie sur Abd Al Hamid Ben Badis ?
azo charif
benbadisisme de belhadjisme de khwanigsme bannaiste et de
arabonassirisme..not bad for the djinns shagger..
Khaled Hammadi <Khaled....@ensigct.fr> wrote in message
news:8atokh$su4$1...@news.cict.fr...
Khaled Hammadi
azo charif a écrit dans le message <8atq1n$s12$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>that is what i always try to convey : khaled is preaching un melange de
>benbadisisme de belhadjisme de khwanigsme bannaiste et de
>arabonassirisme..not bad for the djinns shagger..
Yes try, try si azo tu penses que ça n'a pas marché avec des français
malgrés que nombre d'entre eux sont allergiques au mot islam, tu penses que
tu as des chances de réussire ici sur SCA ?!
Good Luck ! comme vous dites dans ta langue maternelle !
bmadani
Khaled Hammadi wrote:
>
> bmadani a écrit dans le message <38D03F54...@worldnet.att.net>...
> >
> >
> >
> >If I remember correctly, the banu hilal are considered Arab by Ibn
> >Khaldun. The arguments against their being Arab, that I have seen, are
> >more current. However, you may be right and they emigrated to Egypt and
> >then moved on to the west. I think that part of the reason it is
> >believed that they were not Arab is because of the lack of genetic proof
> >of much Arab existence in north Africa.
>
> So that's it !
>
> Sorry Blanca In the name of my field there is a word "chemical" : When i
> hear or read in news this kind of "proof" i smile :o))
DNA testing is, like anything "scientific," not necessarily 100 percent
perfect, but enough tests have been made to consider it respectably
reliable nevertheless. Lab mistakes can be made, and those things do
happen, but this is not a common everyday occurrence, except in some
labs, and they will get their reputation. While you can smile about such
things, I can also smile about "proofs" being brought in from "history,"
from "hadiths," both of which have historically been power-geared, and
less "tests" put to them than DNA studies.
azo charif
>
> azo charif a écrit dans le message <8atq1n$s12$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> >that is what i always try to convey : khaled is preaching un melange de
> >benbadisisme de belhadjisme de khwanigsme bannaiste et de
> >arabonassirisme..not bad for the djinns shagger..
>
> Yes try, try si azo tu penses que ça n'a pas marché avec des français
ici pou voir ..?chiches.
> malgrés que nombre d'entre eux sont allergiques au mot islam,
sorte les accusent de racisme chaque fois quil critiquent objectivement
lislam
>tu penses que
> tu as des chances de réussire ici sur SCA ?!
une femme cent fois plus cultuvee que toi a lire ceci et non pas cela..
>
> Good Luck ! comme vous dites dans ta langue maternelle !
=english speaker et ayant langlais
comme langue maternelle=native english speaker..
>
ILL BE BACK TOMORROW.... and i will expose all of your hyopcrisy..
> s
Fodil
no other region in algeria was involved, they found similiraties between
some spaniards..They never did studies on Kabyles, Touareg...
Fodil
azo charif
>They were suppose to be a large
> enough tribe that they should have left their genes around in abundance,
> but the strong genes among north Africans that genetists (or whatever
> they are called) are finding are Amazigh.
>
significance for the hypothesis.first the hilalis enslaved and thus raped
any berber woman they came across in their raidings and it needed only few
generations for their genetic pool to be diluted by interbreeding with
berbers...without resorting to genetics you could spot a maghrebi person by
just his or her outward physiognomy(the phenotype) which is definetely well
distinguished from any middleastern ones
..of course there is not only one maghrebi 'face' there are many according
to the climes but you could almost always recognize intuitively and
instantly that it is a maghrebi 'face'....
we allahu aalem=god knows best
regards
azo
> azo charif wrote:
> >
>
> > I still believe that beni hilal and beni selim are arabian desert tribes
who
> > emmigrated first to egypt before being sent to maghreb by the fatimids
those
> > kutamas who accompanied el muaiz to cairo stayed there and never went to
the
> > south or returned home.
> > because of the barbarity of the hilalis the arabs tried to call them
berbers
> > as usual so as to blame others for their atrocities according to this
> > dictonn:'give a dog a bad name and hang him '.
> > i havent read the whole works of ibn khaldun and if you did please let
me
> > know what is his view on this i know that other ancient arab
historians
> > like ibn rashid ibn battuta and el messaudi believed that hilalis were
arab
> > aghah=pure arabs.
> > many thanks.
> > regards
>
bmadani
azo charif wrote:
>
> >They were suppose to be a large
> > enough tribe that they should have left their genes around in abundance,
> > but the strong genes among north Africans that genetists (or whatever
> > they are called) are finding are Amazigh.
> >
> hi blanca i dont see the geniticists findings as having any real
> significance for the hypothesis.first the hilalis enslaved and thus raped
> any berber woman they came across in their raidings and it needed only few
> generations for their genetic pool to be diluted by interbreeding with
> berbers...
I'm not so sure, Azo. Because they do find Roman genes, and they didn't
bring their women like the hilalis did. But certainly, as you say, the
various gene pools were diluted and the "berber" is the dominant.
without resorting to genetics you could spot a maghrebi person by
> just his or her outward physiognomy(the phenotype) which is definetely well
> distinguished from any middleastern ones
> ..of course there is not only one maghrebi 'face' there are many according
> to the climes but you could almost always recognize intuitively and
> instantly that it is a maghrebi 'face'....
> we allahu aalem=god knows best
> regards
> azo
I agree with you, but tell it to Fodil :))))
Fodil
>
>
> azo charif wrote:
> >
> > > without resorting to genetics you could spot a maghrebi person by
> > just his or her outward physiognomy(the phenotype) which is definetely
well
> > distinguished from any middleastern ones
> > ..of course there is not only one maghrebi 'face' there are many
according
> > to the climes but you could almost always recognize intuitively and
> > instantly that it is a maghrebi 'face'....
> > we allahu aalem=god knows best
> > regards
> > azo
>
> I agree with you, but tell it to Fodil :))))
Of course a Maghrebin person can be distinguished, but a Maghrebin face
cannot easily be found in Kabylo-Kabyle villages, it is much closer to the
ARAB face, and that is a fact, Jack!. So who are the Imazighen?, are they
Maghrebins?, I doubt it!!
Fodil
Khaled Hammadi
bmadani a écrit dans le message <38D2942F...@worldnet.att.net>...
>
>
>DNA testing is, like anything "scientific," not necessarily 100 percent
>perfect, but enough tests have been made to consider it respectably
>reliable nevertheless. Lab mistakes can be made, and those things do
>happen, but this is not a common everyday occurrence, except in some
>labs, and they will get their reputation.
Merci de m'apprendre ce que c'est que l'analyse scientifique.
>While you can smile about such
>things, I can also smile about "proofs" being brought in from "history,"
>from "hadiths," both of which have historically been power-geared, and
>less "tests" put to them than DNA studies.
Blanca c'est nouveau ça ! Je ne savais pas que tu oserais utiliser ces
méthodes !
Alors comme ça c'est moi qui a utilisé du hadith comme "proof" ?!
Expliques toi !
Bmadani52
From: "Khaled Hammadi" Khaled....@ensigct.fr
Date: 03/20/2000 3:39 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <8b4o5c$j20$1...@news.cict.fr>
Expliques toi !>
Khaled, where do I mention you specifically? You use history and the Qur'an.
However, in general, history on the early Muslims comes straight from the
hadiths. Everyone who uses any historical writings on the era are using hadiths
indirectly. Others use hadith directly. To really learn anything about what
happened in the past, one needs to look at all the social sciences and
sciences. That includes history, archaelogy, anthropology, and the DNA studies
are complementary. They are simply proving what archaelogical records have been
saying. You can't just look at one type of source, as it does not include the
wider picture.
Khaled Hammadi
Bmadani52 a écrit dans le message
<20000320084102...@ng-xe1.aol.com>...
tiens tiens comme c'est bizarre !
je participais dans ce fil à partir de SCA et comme par hasards cette
réponse à un de mes post elle n'apparait pas sur SCA.
Cela doit surement être, justement, que dans la liste des groupes de
discussion de destination il n'y a plus soc.culture.algéria
Allez salutations....by the way does a DNA test was conducted for Ibn
Khaldun to get an answer for the question in the title of this thread ?
Khaled
Bmadani52
Date: 3/23/00 5:00 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <8be47i$iil$1...@news.cict.fr>
tiens tiens comme c'est bizarre !
je participais dans ce fil à partir de SCA et comme par hasards cette
réponse à un de mes post elle n'apparait pas sur SCA.>
I don't know how that happened. It is weird.
>Cela doit surement être, justement, que dans la liste des groupes de
discussion de destination il n'y a plus soc.culture.algéria
Allez salutations....by the way does a DNA test was conducted for Ibn
Khaldun to get an answer for the question in the title of this thread ?
Khaled>>
LOL! Now that's way of finding out :))
We do tend to go off the subject heading. I don't remember how that title even
started. Sounds like a Fodilism :)