What Is a Young Whippersnapper?
Kaberi Chakrabarty
by Kaberi Chakrabarty
The other day, my parents and I were visiting a Bengali family that lives
nearby. The father of the family is a colleague of my parents, probably 10 or
15 years their junior; the mother is a professional who works with computers,
and they have a daughter in grade school and two young boys. As I usually do
when I make such visits with my parents, I automatically gravitated towards the
children, particularly the boys. I would occasionally join the discussion the
"adults" were carrying on, and they were perfectly happy for me to do so, but
I would inevitably find myself going back to play with the boys. The topics
of the "adult" discussion were never arcane or over my head; for that matter,
I had those same discussions with other people every day, and yet I always felt
slightly out of place in those discussions. Why did I feel more comfortable
spending my time with boys young enough to be my own children than with adults
who could not be more than 15 years older than I?
Well, obviously, their parents were Old Fogies like my parents, and the
boys were Young Whippersnappers like myself.
But what does that mean? Ever since I used those terms myself to describe
First Generation and Second Generation people, attempting to acknowledge the
distinction while still being light-hearted about it, I have heard people com-
plain, "You cannot possibly describe an entire generation of people with a term
like Old Fogey. It is insulting, and besides, the First Generation people that
are immigrating now are far from old, and do not share all that much with those
who immigrated 20 or 30 years ago. You are just supplanting one unnecessary
stereotype (Fresh Off the Boat [FOB] or American Born Confused Desi [ABCD], for
example) with another."
These people certainly have a point. To dismiss all those who have ever
immigrated to America as, say, antiquated, unfashionably dressed prudes who
speak badly accented English and mistreat their children would undeniably be
doing a disservice to thousands, nay, millions of hard-working, well-educated
decent people who made their way to North America, in part, to build a better
life for their children. While the terms were never meant to be taken lite-
rally, (I, for example, am clearly older than a number of those who have immi-
grated in the last few years, but I am still a Young Whippersnapper and they
are still Old Fogies) their use does indeed suggest that thousands of people
from different backgrounds are still very much alike in sometimes unpleasant
ways over which they would appear to have little control, and they do fall
into the often-criticized category of "generalizations". And yet...
And yet there remains in my mind the conviction that the general division
of these people into generations, regardless of the label one gives them, does
have a basis. There are things that people from one generation or another have
in common, just by virtue of the part of the world in which they were raised,
things which form the basis for childhood memories and adolescent rituals,
things with which one constructs one's ethnic identity, and which allow one to
form a bond, however insubstantial, with anyone with whom one shares these
things. And these are the things that form barriers between Old Fogies and
Young Whippersnappers, some only inches high and easily breached, others see-
mingly miles high and impenetrable.
Young Whippersnappers grow up with TV, to a degree almost inconceivable to
most Old Fogies. In the United States, even the poorest of children cannot
help but come in contact with Mister Rogers, Big Bird and Kermit the Frog. A
Young Whippersnapper's Saturday morning ritual consists of highly sugared
cereal followed by hours of cartoons (some Whippersnappers continue this ritual
into college and even beyond). Young Whippersnappers occasionally take pride
in demonstrating their obscure knowledge of trashy sitcoms like the Brady Bunch
and the Love Boat. And a few years later, whenever they can manage it, Young
Whippersnappers take late night breaks from studying and working to enjoy David
Letterman or Jay Leno.
These days, watching TV consists not only of TV programs, but also of
movies on video. Through this medium, Young Whippersnappers are subjected to
endless doses of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Julia Roberts, Wesley Snipes, Meryl
Streep, Mel Gibson, Demi Moore and Harrison Ford. When Young Whippersnappers
think of directors they think of Spielberg, Coppola, Scorsese and Lucas. Their
classic movie story of good and evil is Star Wars, and their most famous
comedy might be Wayne's World (again adapted from TV). Young Whippersnappers
may read books by Stephen King and John Grisham, but some have a lingering sus-
picion that any book that has no plans for being dramatized as a movie is pro-
bably not worth reading.
While their eyes are being entertained by TV and movies, Young Whipper-
snappers occupy their ears with music, largely from the radio but also from,
not surprisingly, TV and movies. While their tastes vary widely, it is almost
impossible for someone to grow up in America without being exposed to Michael
Jackson, Elton John, Madonna, Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin and Elvis Presley.
Depending on their tastes, Young Whippersnappers may be interested in anything
from Snoop Doggy Dogg to Luther Vandross to Travis Tritt to Itzhak Perlman.
Many Young Whippersnappers are all but unaware of LPs and phonographs; what
would they think of the reel-to-reel tape machine on which my parents used to
play Ravi Shankar tapes brought over from India?
Once Young Whippersnappers enter school, they are invested with a whole
new set of ideas that they share with school-age children across the continent.
They play tag and jump rope, they have spelling bees and science fairs, they
learn about George Washington and Martin Luther King, Jr., they study the
poetry of Edgar Allan Poe, the novels of Mark Twain, and the plays of William
Shakespeare. In the United States, they learn the Pledge of Allegiance and
"The Star Spangled Banner". If they go to a public school, they typically wear
T-shirts and jeans, and sometime in junior high school they engage in customary
rituals like school dances, sleepovers, and eventually, if circumstances
permit, dating.
In school and in other social events, Young Whippersnappers learn Western
(read "North American") values. These are the barriers that are frequently the
most difficult to overcome. Young Whippersnappers are taught that self-esteem
is important, that physically disciplining children, or doing anything that
might leave them with lifelong scars, physical or otherwise, is sometimes clas-
sified as "abuse", that all human beings, regardless of age, sex, color, reli-
gious beliefs, or sexual orientation, are equally deserving of respect, that
people who do not express love by saying, "I love you" may not be feeling love
at all, and that relationships that are not clearly founded on love are often
doomed to failure. And, regardless of whether or not it is appropriate to do
so, they often apply these values to their relationships with Old Fogies, and
that is where the trouble starts.
Of course, Young Whippersnappers, like Old Fogies, vary tremendously,
depending on whether on not they were born here, and if not, how old they were
when they came. For every Whippersnapper who listens to Green Day and sleeps
in his Nikes, there is one who listens to Suman Chatterjee and sleeps in a
panjabi. For every Whippersnapper who can quote Monty Python by heart, there
is one who has made heroes out of Satyajit Ray, Tagore and Gandhi. And of
course, all the Whippersnappers in the United States have their parallels in
Canada, the United Kingdom, Europe, etc. But the fact remains that there are
things that separate immigrants from their children, although sometimes only
in small ways, and that those of the second generation, whatever one chooses
to call them, deserve the acknowledgement that, as much as each has his or her
own separate identity, they have experiences and commonalities that can give
them a sense of belonging that they do not necessarily find from the culture
of their parents, nor from the culture of the country in which they were
raised. Therefore, the title Young Whippersnapper does mean something, and
neither it not its counterpart should necessarily be treated with disdain.
--
________________ _/-\________
/|\ | / /| /| |
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*
saugata basu
: WHAT IS A YOUNG WHIPPERSNAPPER?
:
: by Kaberi Chakrabarty
:
... whole article delted.
why can't we just call ourselves indians and indian americans -- or for
that matter bengalis and bengali americans. wouldn't it be simpler and free
of any perceived prejudice ? why are these terms like "yw" being invented ?
the fact that the b's and the ba's differ in their culture is only to be
expected. it really does not merit such a lengthy article -- in which
amongst other things you have implied that people brought up in india
are *not* taught that all human beings deserve respect regardless
of blah-blah...
saugata.
Kaberi Chakrabarty
saugata basu <sau...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>why can't we just call ourselves indians and indian americans -- or for
>that matter bengalis and bengali americans. wouldn't it be simpler and free
>of any perceived prejudice ? why are these terms like "yw" being invented ?
>
tion and Second Generation were both long and boring. In the article in which
I first used them, I wrote a number of opinions which could have been interpre-
ted as critical of both generations, and I was hoping to defuse that with
terms that were more lighthearted, if possible. There are, of course, other
"light-hearted" terms like FOB and ABCD, but I find them, particularly the
latter, vaguely insulting. I think the word Indian or Bengali is a little too
general by itself, and then begs the question, "What is a Bengali?" (a
question, BTW, which has been asked several times on this newsgroup). You,
naturally, are free to use whatever terms you wish.
>the fact that the b's and the ba's differ in their culture is only to be
>expected. it really does not merit such a lengthy article -- in which
>amongst other things you have implied that people brought up in india
>are *not* taught that all human beings deserve respect regardless
>of blah-blah...
>
I'm sorry if you felt anything I wrote was insulting or a waste of your time.
Naturally, you were not obligated to read it. The difference between the gene-
rations may be obvious to you, but, in my opinion, some of the conflict between
generations stems from the fact that both generations expect the other to think
as they do, and sometimes forget that the fact that these people were raised
in vastly different circumstances can make a big difference in their thinking,
even though YWs are raised by people who believe a particular thing, they may
grow up to believe something entirely different. It has been my experience
that OFs are not often shocked by the idea that in fact not all human beings,
for example children, homosexuals, those of a different religion, etc. are not
worthy of equal amounts of respect. You are presumably an exception.
Daulat Sen
saugata basu <sau...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>> -- in which
>>amongst other things you have implied that people brought up in india
>>are *not* taught that all human beings deserve respect regardless
>>of blah-blah...
I think that Kaberi didn't actually mean to give that impression but it
is true that a lot of people growing up in the West sometimes think that
"everyone back home" grows up warped and somehow more "backward" than
themselves. Because?? - because they don't get Snoop Doggy Dog and
Baskin Robbins etc. etc.. Well, they do now, but thats not what makes
them or Indians abroad what they are. All depends on whether you are
brought up to respect and love or hate and mistrust. Most of us end up
somewhere in between.
This miscomprehension is usually a function of the relationship between
the generations, since away from "home" parents freeze in a time warp of
cultural and social behaviours and fail to evolve, unlike their
counterparts "back home", thus giving the impression (quite succesfully
at times) that they are repressive ogres! :) They do this as a defense
mechanism - holding on to what they know.
On the subject of labels, Kaberi found "abcd" to be offensive, someone
else I know finds "Desi" offensive, I find "FOB" extremely offensive -
so we aren't going to agree on terminology!!
>
>The difference between the gene-
>rations may be obvious to you, but, in my opinion, some of the conflict >between
>generations stems from the fact that both generations expect the other >to think
>as they do, and sometimes forget that the fact that these people were >raised
>in vastly different circumstances can make a big difference in their >thinking,
there you go! But the "vastness" is only superficial, the core values remain fairly constant across the generations. Its all part =
of the learning of the growing up process! :)
On the otherhand, how do you then explain the differences between American (white) teenagers and their parents? Presumably they gre=
w up in a much more homogenous cultural system? (is then generational conflict "normal"? And therefore we should not worry about i=
t and get on with living?)
>It has been my experience
>that OFs are not often shocked by the idea that in fact not all human >beings,
>for example children, homosexuals, those of a different religion, etc. >are not
>worthy of equal amounts of respect.
This should not come as a shock at all. I think you will find that people who truly treat EVERYBODY else with EQUAL respect are ver=
y very thin on the ground, and this is irrespective of age, race and gender. We all have our prejudices, lets not pretend that some=
how being brought up in a "liberal democratic society" makes us any more "saintly" than anyone else. That attitude is frankly naive.=
India can be just as liberal, (she can also be shockingly conservative). The evidence of the non-ideal world is all around us! I=
n America, in the UK, in Kazakhstan, in India!!! I would suggest that part of "growing up" is learning to live in this non-ideal wo=
rld!
But don't take my word for it, I'm just a twisted cynic! :)
Daulat
Dr. Jai Maharaj
The first poster described fogeys and whippersnappers. One note:
the term "fogey," describing one who is behind the times has its
roots in "foggy" which means "fat" or "bloated." It was also
applied to "moss-grown," which yielded the Scottish "fogey."
Whippersnappers are young and behave with impudent boldness, but
with little or no authority.
Jai Maharaj <j...@mantra.com>
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:% Om Shanti %:%:%
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Kaberi Chakrabarty
>In article <4gav87$r...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>,
>saugata basu <sau...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> -- in which
>>>amongst other things you have implied that people brought up in india
>>>are *not* taught that all human beings deserve respect regardless
>>>of blah-blah...
>
>I think that Kaberi didn't actually mean to give that impression but it
>is true that a lot of people growing up in the West sometimes think that
>"everyone back home" grows up warped and somehow more "backward" than
>themselves. Because?? - because they don't get Snoop Doggy Dog and
>Baskin Robbins etc. etc.. Well, they do now, but thats not what makes
>them or Indians abroad what they are. All depends on whether you are
>brought up to respect and love or hate and mistrust. Most of us end up
>somewhere in between.
>
I am afraid I have somehow missed the connection between Snoop Doggy Dogg,
Baskin Robbins, and respect and mistrust.:-)
>
>This miscomprehension is usually a function of the relationship between
>the generations, since away from "home" parents freeze in a time warp of
>cultural and social behaviours and fail to evolve, unlike their
>counterparts "back home", thus giving the impression (quite succesfully
>at times) that they are repressive ogres! :) They do this as a defense
>mechanism - holding on to what they know.
>
This brings up two subjects that I did not deal with in the article: (1) the
definition of an Old Fogey, which of course I did not feel I could do properly
(any of the rest of you are welcome to give it a shot) and the differences
between those who came here 30 years ago, like my parents, and those who have
come here in the last decade or so. I have heard from a number of people in
the latter category who don't much care for being called Old Fogeys. As I
said, the terms were never meant literally, but unfortunately, people have a
hard time thinking of themselves as "old" without cringing. I can understand
that it's a lot less stressful for me to announce that I am going to be a Young
Whippersnapper for the rest of my life that it is for people younger than my-
self to call themselves Old Fogies. Therefore, Shoumyo and the rest of you have
my official permission to call yourselves Young Fogies if that makes you feel
any better.:-)
>>
>>The difference between the gene-
>>rations may be obvious to you, but, in my opinion, some of the conflict >between
>>generations stems from the fact that both generations expect the other >to think
>>as they do, and sometimes forget that the fact that these people were >raised
>>in vastly different circumstances can make a big difference in their >thinking,
>
>there you go! But the "vastness" is only superficial, the core values remain
fairly constant across the generations. Its all part =
>of the learning of the growing up process! :)
>
I am having trouble understanding again. Could you be more specific?
>On the otherhand, how do you then explain the differences between American
(white) teenagers and their parents? Presumably they gre=
>w up in a much more homogenous cultural system? (is then generational conflict
"normal"? And therefore we should not worry about i=
>t and get on with living?)
>
Ah, good question. Yet another one of the "Western values" we pick up over
here. One of the things that are taken for granted here is that teenagers, by
nature, are moody, argumentative, and have a tendency to rebel. According to
my mother, this assumption is not made so much in India. Therefore, here, ado-
lescents are more or less given license to be difficult for a few years,
whereas in India (or Pakistan or Bangladesh, if you wish) they are expected to
behave as well as anyone else.
>
>>It has been my experience
>>that OFs are not often shocked by the idea that in fact not all human >beings,
>>for example children, homosexuals, those of a different religion, etc. >are not
>>worthy of equal amounts of respect.
>
>This should not come as a shock at all. I think you will find that people who
truly treat EVERYBODY else with EQUAL respect are ver=
>y very thin on the ground, and this is irrespective of age, race and gender.
We all have our prejudices, lets not pretend that some=
>how being brought up in a "liberal democratic society" makes us any more
"saintly" than anyone else. That attitude is frankly naive.=
> India can be just as liberal, (she can also be shockingly conservative).
The evidence of the non-ideal world is all around us! I=
>n America, in the UK, in Kazakhstan, in India!!! I would suggest that part of
"growing up" is learning to live in this non-ideal wo=
>rld!
>
>But don't take my word for it, I'm just a twisted cynic! :)
You are completely correct. The only difference that I see in this respect is
that here, the "ideal" is, if not actually more frequent, at least more well
entrenched. That is, here, even racists are generally bright enough to avoid
makind openly racist comments if they are not completely familiar with their
audience. Here, everyone at least pretends to believe in the whole "love thy
neighbor" thing. And, in my opinion, here there is a slightly higher percentage
of people that truly believe in it, or at least consider it an ideal. There,
in my opinion, one can say things like, "_____ people are an abomination and
should be wiped off the surface of the earth!" in public and it is more or less
accepted.
Bapa Rao
*In article <4gav87$r...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu*,
...
*I think that Kaberi didn't actually mean to give that impression but it
*is true that a lot of people growing up in the West sometimes think that
*"everyone back home" grows up warped and somehow more "backward" than
*themselves. Because?? - because they don't get Snoop Doggy Dog and
*Baskin Robbins etc. etc.. Well, they do now, but thats not what makes
One difference Kaberi left out is that OFs know English and YWs don't. :-)
YWs would probably say "backwards" when they mean "backward" and will have
too low an attention span to understand the difference. :-)
My personal views.
Bapa Rao
Suprakash
>>
>>I think that Kaberi didn't actually mean to give that impression but it
>>is true that a lot of people growing up in the West sometimes think that
>>"everyone back home" grows up warped and somehow more "backward" than
>>themselves. Because?? - because they don't get Snoop Doggy Dog and
>>Baskin Robbins etc. etc.. Well, they do now,
Kintu Baskin Robbins kimba Big Bird et al.-er kirti kahini porena
bole tara backward keno hobe- R porlei tara progoti-sheel chintadharar
adhikari hobe, tachara noi??
>I am afraid I have somehow missed the connection between Snoop Doggy Dogg,
>Baskin Robbins, and respect and mistrust.:-)
>
Ashole ei sob-i sobder khela. Je smasya-R katha ei article-e alochito
hoeche, seti khub-i sahaj, durbodhya kichu noi. Generation gap bojhber
jonnyo immigration-ke anar kono darkar nei. Ak desher modhye thekei
bivinyo boeysher lokeder modhye-o ta dekha jai. Jara tin purush dhore
USA-te bash korche, tader grorer siblings-der sathe tader Ma-babar kimba
grand parents-der jibondharai, alochonar bisoi-bostur kono tafat nei?
Prosongoto, article ti suru hoechilo ekti prosno die - keno
apni bachhader songe samai katate bhalo basen. Ei prosner uttorer
sathe ei article-e alochito bisoi bostur mil khub-i kom. Oneker-i
bachhyader proti ekti swavabik akorshan thake - seta onek khetrei
sei bachya Baskin Robbins pore kina Kimba rate kohono-sokhono Jay Leno
dekhe kina tar jonnyo noi. Karon-ti onek khetrei psychological.
Amra western sikhya nie lompho-jhompo korte bhalo basi. Haito
eta western culture-er-i ekti ongo. Tobe majhe modhye nijederke
'Snoop Doggy Dog' zatio sobder modhye harie falee. Chintar ba samosyar
goviree na dhuke sudhui jhin-chak sobder koch-kochi kori. Ami Sougata-R
sathe ekmot je ei bishoi-ti bujhte notun sobder abiskarer kono darkar
nei, haito-ba ei dirgho article-er proyojon chilona. Amar ekti purono
desi kobita mone pore gelo:
Jol pore pata nore
Ei nie poddyo
Likhe fele vablam
Holo ono-boddyo!
Chad chilo futo
Pariniko zante
Zege uthe boshe achi
Bichanar prante...
etc. etc.
Sorry, couldn't write more; Chemistry class 1.00; Pagla kore dichye.
Supu
Kaberi Chakrabarty
Cute, very cute. God knows I marvel at the English some of the OFs use on the
newsgroups. I mean, I know there's such a thing as Indian English, but please!
Teach these people not to use "isn't it?" for "right?" and to form questions
with proper syntax and then come and criticize us for how we speak our native
language, OK?
Sheesh!:-)
Kaberi Chakrabarty
In article <4gidbd$m...@news.missouri.edu>, <Suprakash> wrote:
>
> Kintu Baskin Robbins kimba Big Bird et al.-er kirti kahini porena
>bole tara backward keno hobe- R porlei tara progoti-sheel chintadharar
>adhikari hobe, tachara noi??
>
Perhaps "backward" is not such a good word here, maybe "out of touch"?
Note that I am not actually accusing OFs of being that way, only restating
a comment that one does hear rather often from YWs and other generations the
world over.
Generation gap bojhber
>jonnyo immigration-ke anar kono darkar nei. Ak desher modhye thekei
>bivinyo boeysher lokeder modhye-o ta dekha jai. Jara tin purush dhore
>USA-te bash korche, tader grorer siblings-der sathe tader Ma-babar kimba
>grand parents-der jibondharai, alochonar bisoi-bostur kono tafat nei?
Nishchui. Katha-ta hocche je onek shomoi ma-baba je ei-deshe ashe bhebe thake
je oder baccha oden moton bhabbe; ora shobshomoi busteparena je kano oder
"Bangali" baccha Bangla bolte chai na, khabar bhalo lage na, "I love you" na
bole kandte arombho kore, ittadi. Ei difference in values origin acche to, tai
likhecchi.
> Prosongoto, article ti suru hoechilo ekti prosno die - keno
>apni bachhader songe samai katate bhalo basen. Ei prosner uttorer
>sathe ei article-e alochito bisoi bostur mil khub-i kom. Oneker-i
>bachhyader proti ekti swavabik akorshan thake - seta onek khetrei
>sei bachya Baskin Robbins pore kina Kimba rate kohono-sokhono Jay Leno
>dekhe kina tar jonnyo noi. Karon-ti onek khetrei psychological.
Actually, I was just using that as an example to start. The point was not
the age of the people I choose to spend my time with; this was an extreme exam-
ple of two facts: (1) YWs tend to identify more with YWs of any age rather than
OFs of a similar age (with numerous exceptions, of course) and (2) YWs and OFs
seem to instinctively recognize these distinctions and accept them. Example,
>
>sathe ekmot je ei bishoi-ti bujhte notun sobder abiskarer kono darkar
>nei, haito-ba ei dirgho article-er proyojon chilona. Amar ekti purono
>desi kobita mone pore gelo:
>
> Jol pore pata nore
> Ei nie poddyo
> Likhe fele vablam
> Holo ono-boddyo!
> Chad chilo futo
> Pariniko zante
> Zege uthe boshe achi
> Bichanar prante...
>
Well, what can I say? One always hopes that when one takes time to carefully
think about a subject and write one's opinions that someone out there will
appreciate it. Can't expect to make everyone happy.
Bapa Rao
Why is it so often considered cute when French persons end
their sentences with a confirematory "no?" but jarring when Indians
use "isn't it?" as a catchall for the same purpose? After all, both
are legitimate protests against the ridiculous syntactic demand to
agree with both elements of a principal clause that might be a mile
away. The use of the generic to-be along with the third-person-neutral
shows that we are at least aware that there is a clause back there
somewhere, and we are trying our best in our second or third language,
isn't it? The Frenchies (and college kids in India) just throw in the
lazy filler, "no?"
I'll note that learning the correct use of a single, stand-alone
word or phrase like "backward" vs. "backwards" is comparatively
easier, and should be especially easy for a native speaker, isn't
it?
:-)
My personal views
Bapa Rao
INDRANI DASGUPTA
>
>I had to get my mother to help me translate some of this.:-)
>
>In article <4gidbd$m...@news.missouri.edu>, <Suprakash> wrote:
Ei, ei hochhe ki? Era to shob rebel korbe. Ingreji madhyom-e Bangla
lekha? Shorbonaash, bondho koro eishob kirti kolaap, ekhhoni! :-)
Indrani.
Kaberi Chakrabarty
need such a catchall, this version is the only one I have heard that is gram-
matically incorrect. Besides the Romance "no?" and the American "right?"
there is always the English/Canadian "eh?". Seems like a relatively easy tag
to learn to use. (2) Besides being incorrect, I personally find it very jarring,much more so than other Indian Englishisms like "I am needing" for "I need"
or the use of relatively infrequent words of Latin origin like "superannuation"
for "retirement".
Believe me, you don't want me to start following up to articles pointing out
the atrocities that OFs (and, yes, occasionally YWs too) commit upon the Englishlanguage.
Daulat Sen
frankly the use of particular idioms is largely irrelevant in this day
and age, and more so on a medium such as a usenet newsgroup. I like the
variety of responses that exist - makes for a richer cultural pot to dip
into.
"right/eh/no/innit/int-it/lah/only" - whatever people want to say is
fine by me - makes life more entertaining. The need to say the "right
thing" is more prevalent amongst groups who are trying hard to "fit in"
with their peers who speak in a certain way. If you choose not to fit
in, then that must be ok too? Admittedly, you might have to fight for
the right to do so at times.
I don't think that we can judge someone for their use of language in a
different manner to what we are accustomed to, nor indeed to which we
are accustomed! :). Particularly the inference that "white" expressions
are somehow ok, whilst non-white ones are found to be uncool, is not
very nice. Bedises which, expressions adapt and change and today's hip
phrase is tomorrow's passe gauche expression that only uncool people
would use daddi-o! :) so it doesn't really matter what you say old
chap!
Ultimately it doesn't matter if the language is being massaccred - all
languages evolve by this process. The "English" most of you speak is
generally considered awful by the Brits. :) and standard written
American English much favoured in gmat et al, is the biggest load of
cobblers i have ever seen in my life gor blimey luv a duck stone the
crows apples and pears old bill hows yer father!!! Who the hell speaks
like that anyway?!?!? Besides, its not like English is our mother
tongue, so why do we care??!?!
Daulat
Kaberi Chakrabarty
>
>I don't think that we can judge someone for their use of language in a
>different manner to what we are accustomed to, nor indeed to which we
>are accustomed! :).
I am glad to know that this tendency to be judgemental is something up with
which you will not put!:-)
>Ultimately it doesn't matter if the language is being massaccred - all
>languages evolve by this process. The "English" most of you speak is
>generally considered awful by the Brits. :) and standard written
>American English much favoured in gmat et al, is the biggest load of
>cobblers i have ever seen in my life gor blimey luv a duck stone the
>crows apples and pears old bill hows yer father!!!
Ummm...right....whatever it is you just said. Absolutely.
>like that anyway?!?!? Besides, its not like English is our mother
>tongue, so why do we care??!?!
Well, English *is* my mother tongue, contrary to what a few OFs would have me
believe (my mother among them). However, I do not generally have a problem
with the different varieties of English spoken all over the world. I only have
a problem with those who maybe have not mastered any particular variety of
English who then criticize the use of it by native speakers such as myself!:-)
Daulat Sen
>Me:
>like that anyway?!?!? Besides, its not like English is our mother
>tongue, so why do we care??!?!
>kaberi:
>Well, English *is* my mother tongue, contrary to what a few OFs would >have me believe (my mother among them).
well ... i would suggest that English is your "practical" mother tongue only so far as it is the language with you (like me) are mos=
t familiar. I see from your signature in particular that you still have an interest in your "genetic" mother tongue :)
>However, I do not generally have a problem with the different >varieties of English spoken all over the world.
I would hope not!! If you did then you would be seriously narrow minded! :) I have seen this in some of my Indian friends here and =
I don't much care for it as an attitude to life
>I only have a problem with those who maybe have not mastered any >particular variety of English who then criticize the use of it by=
>native speakers such as myself!:-)
thats quite a relatavistically judgemental statement to make! says he inventing words and expressions as he composes the sentance! =
:) By having "a problem with" them, you are doing exactly what they are doing, isn't it not?:) Perhaps for their needs, they have =
mastered all they need to?
Daulat
D. Nguyen
A friend of mine, Kathy, just move to Houston, TX for a short
business trip. She will be staying there for 3 months and looking for
indian friends. If you are interested, please send me your phone number I
will forward them to her.
Thanks,
--Duy
S Bhattacharyya
>Well, English *is* my mother tongue, contrary to what a few OFs would have me
>believe (my mother among them). However, I do not generally have a problem
>with the different varieties of English spoken all over the world. I only have
>a problem with those who maybe have not mastered any particular variety of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What is it that they used to say about folk who live in glass
houses ? :-)
>English who then criticize the use of it by native speakers such as myself!:-)
>--
> ________________ _/-\________
> /|\ | / /| /| |
> \| | \ \| \| |
> *
Oh Yes, and on FOB's and ABCD's......... FOB's are those snobbish,
smelly, rude characters who come over here, go to school at American
taxpayer expense, and graduate to lucrative jobs. They drive around
in Beamers and Mercs, expostulating all the while in a weird strange
language they are pleased to call English and spend the rest of their
lives telling their kids how to run theirs!
About ABCD's, they are those suave cool dudes and dudette's
who start their careers by going to Cornell and paying for it with
their parent's money, badmouthing them all the while anyway. They also
go on to grad schools of somewhat lesser pedigree, where they usually
fail their PhD Qualifiers at least once. They only date whites and
occasionally other Indians who are not too particular about who they go
out with. They end up marrying a fellow ABCD and break up by their mid
forties, when they *go native* and take a quick trip to India to
"catch up on the culture" and get a spouse. They then spend the
rest of their lives telling their kids the very same things that their
Old Fogey parents told them...............
Generalizations, you say ? Statistics mon, is an
entire bloody subject built on the concept and Nations are made
and broken on these very tenets - never put a generalization
down, or you'll end up a statistic...............
Santanu
Subhajit Sen
S Bhattacharyya <san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>kab...@marist.chi.il.us (Kaberi Chakrabarty) writes:
>
>>Well, English *is* my mother tongue, contrary to what a few OFs would have me
>
>smelly, rude characters who come over here, go to school at American
>taxpayer expense, and graduate to lucrative jobs. They drive around
>in Beamers and Mercs, expostulating all the while in a weird strange
>language they are pleased to call English and spend the rest of their
>lives telling their kids how to run theirs!
> About ABCD's, they are those suave cool dudes and dudette's
>who start their careers by going to Cornell and paying for it with
>their parent's money, badmouthing them all the while anyway. They also
>go on to grad schools of somewhat lesser pedigree, where they usually
>fail their PhD Qualifiers at least once. They only date whites and
>occasionally other Indians who are not too particular about who they go
>out with. They end up marrying a fellow ABCD and break up by their mid
>forties, when they *go native* and take a quick trip to India to
>"catch up on the culture" and get a spouse. They then spend the
>rest of their lives telling their kids the very same things that their
>Old Fogey parents told them...............
>
Echoing similar sentiments Vikram Seth says(pardon if not verbatim),
"The whole world has meant
The exile of our breed,
Who are not home at home
And are abroad,abroad.
......"
Subhajit
rishi bhattacharjee
well. The language that all these "whities" and our "ABCD----H" speak is not
english by any sense of the term. They do not have grammer, spelling (oh my
god), or the phonetics to go along with it. As far as getting into good
graduate schools (somebody claimed we go to schools at US taxpayers money).
Hey the grad school and the entire community choose us to get that money. We
apply from India and they reply in a favorable way 75% of the time; unlike
some of u jokers. Why don't u ABCDs apply and compete for that? U know what
ur problem is? Ur problem is lack of competition. These SATs, MCATs are
childish exams compared to what we do back home. Try sitting for Joint
Entrance, or IITEntrance or IIM Entrance tests. Some of u will start crying
right in the middle of the test. We are brought up the hard way u ABCDs. You
are the pampered lot. Admit it, the hardship some of us hafd to go through to
come to your homeland is beyond description. I know sons of a MURIWALA
(seller of puffed rice) who is a professor of Berkeley. A muriwala back in
India still makes Rs 30/day. Think straight my dear ABCD friends, if ur dad
and moms daily earning would have been $30.00, would you have made it to the
Cornells or DUkes or MITS? I dont think so. U would not have come to the
CRTs where you post these stupid notes everyday. So, get of ur pompous asses
and get to the grind and try respecting ur non-ABCD brothers and sisters.
Jai Hind/Bom Kali
Rishi-moshai
Kaberi Chakrabarty
S Bhattacharyya <san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>Oh Yes, and on FOB's and ABCD's......... FOB's are those snobbish,
>smelly, rude characters who come over here, go to school at American
>taxpayer expense, and graduate to lucrative jobs. They drive around
>in Beamers and Mercs, expostulating all the while in a weird strange
>language they are pleased to call English and spend the rest of their
>lives telling their kids how to run theirs!
> About ABCD's, they are those suave cool dudes and dudette's
>who start their careers by going to Cornell and paying for it with
>their parent's money, badmouthing them all the while anyway. They also
>go on to grad schools of somewhat lesser pedigree, where they usually
>fail their PhD Qualifiers at least once. They only date whites and
>occasionally other Indians who are not too particular about who they go
>out with. They end up marrying a fellow ABCD and break up by their mid
>forties, when they *go native* and take a quick trip to India to
I didn't know there were any ABCD/YWs in their forties? I am nearly thirty
and I am almost the oldest YW I know. I believe the oldest one I know is only
three or four years older than I am. Maybe in the UK?
>"catch up on the culture" and get a spouse. They then spend the
>rest of their lives telling their kids the very same things that their
>Old Fogey parents told them...............
> Generalizations, you say ? Statistics mon, is an
>entire bloody subject built on the concept and Nations are made
>and broken on these very tenets - never put a generalization
>down, or you'll end up a statistic...............
>
Well, all I can say is that this makes me very pleased to not have to call
myself an ABCD. I always knew there was some reason I didn't care for that
term.
Kaberi Chakrabarty
rishi bhattacharjee <ris...@postoffice.ptd.net> wrote:
>some of u jokers. Why don't u ABCDs apply and compete for that? U know what
>ur problem is? Ur problem is lack of competition. These SATs, MCATs are
>childish exams compared to what we do back home. Try sitting for Joint
>Entrance, or IITEntrance or IIM Entrance tests. Some of u will start crying
>right in the middle of the test. We are brought up the hard way u ABCDs. You
>are the pampered lot. Admit it, the hardship some of us hafd to go through to
>come to your homeland is beyond description. I know sons of a MURIWALA
>(seller of puffed rice) who is a professor of Berkeley. A muriwala back in
>India still makes Rs 30/day. Think straight my dear ABCD friends, if ur dad
>and moms daily earning would have been $30.00, would you have made it to the
>Cornells or DUkes or MITS? I dont think so. U would not have come to the
>CRTs where you post these stupid notes everyday. So, get of ur pompous asses
>and get to the grind and try respecting ur non-ABCD brothers and sisters.
Yeah, yeah, and you had to walk five miles to and from school, barefoot, in
monsoon rain, uphill, both ways! Right.
Once again, I am happy to say that I am not an ABCD, so this person is not
talking to me, and I don't have to reply to this load of...stuff.
Dasgupta
the attitude and the spiteful tone he uses in his post.
The way YW's and OF/YF's can get alongis exposure to each other. The attitude,
in my opinion, should be that of "listening" and"accepting", as opposed to
fou muthing.
Regards,
Shoumyo.
Srabani Banerjee
>Not very familiar with this whippersnapper idea, but, I know one thing quite
>well. The language that all these "whities" and our "ABCD----H" speak is not
>english by any sense of the term. They do not have grammer, spelling (oh my
>god), or the phonetics to go along with it.
Probably, if you say so! But what is proper English, pray? `Grammer'
instead of `Grammar'? Your insistence on using `u' instead of `you' and `ur'
instead of `your'? (Might be phonetic, but its hardly English, right?). And I
sincerely believe that a man, even if he is not the son of a `muriwala' could
never be a professor of Berkeley (unless, of course, he was teaching about
Berkeley). He could, of course, be a professor at Berkeley.
Want me to go on?
As far as getting into good
>graduate schools (somebody claimed we go to schools at US taxpayers money).
>Hey the grad school and the entire community choose us to get that money. We
>apply from India and they reply in a favorable way 75% of the time; unlike
>some of u jokers. Why don't u ABCDs apply and compete for that? U know what
>ur problem is? Ur problem is lack of competition. These SATs, MCATs are
>childish exams compared to what we do back home. Try sitting for Joint
>Entrance, or IITEntrance or IIM Entrance tests. Some of u will start crying
>right in the middle of the test.
The people you choose to ridicule didn't ask you to come here. So why do you
think they need to go to India to prove their worth? Why do they need to prove
it, anyway?
We are brought up the hard way u ABCDs. You
>are the pampered lot. Admit it, the hardship some of us hafd to go through to
>come to your homeland is beyond description. I know sons of a MURIWALA
>(seller of puffed rice) who is a professor of Berkeley. A muriwala back in
>India still makes Rs 30/day. Think straight my dear ABCD friends, if ur dad
>and moms daily earning would have been $30.00, would you have made it to the
>Cornells or DUkes or MITS? I dont think so.
If you compare the overall American condition with ours, the majority
of the Indians who come here are no less pampered than their `ABCD' (sorry,
Kaberi) counterpart. The professor you talk about must be a very special
person to have done what he did. I couldn't have made it here if my father made
Rs.30/day. Neither would have any of the Indians I know out here. So what is
your point?
U would not have come to the
>CRTs where you post these stupid notes everyday. So, get of ur pompous asses
>and get to the grind and try respecting ur non-ABCD brothers and sisters.
Respect has to be earned, I believe. Having a bit of self-esteem might help.
>Jai Hind/Bom Kali
Oh, yeah!
Srabani
Shubu Mukherjee
>> some of u jokers. Why don't u ABCDs apply and compete for that? U know what
>> ur problem is? Ur problem is lack of competition. These SATs, MCATs are
>> childish exams compared to what we do back home. Try sitting for Joint
>> Entrance, or IITEntrance or IIM Entrance tests. Some of u will start crying
>> right in the middle of the test. We are brought up the hard way u ABCDs. You
>> are the pampered lot.
First __learn__ what problems ABCDs face. Then crib. You have no
idea of what you are talking about.
Wonder what prompted you to bitch so much ...
>> Admit it, the hardship some of us hafd to go through to come to
>> your homeland is beyond description.
Why didn't you stay back in __your__ homeland instead?
-Shubu
PS: I am a PIGS.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shubu Mukherjee Univeristy of Wisconsin-Madison, Computer Sciences
Anindya Ghoshal
: In article <4h3ebm$g...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
: >fail their PhD Qualifiers at least once. They only date whites and
: >occasionally other Indians who are not too particular about who they go
: >out with. They end up marrying a fellow ABCD and break up by their mid
: >forties, when they *go native* and take a quick trip to India to
: ^^^^^^^^^
: I didn't know there were any ABCD/YWs in their forties? I am nearly thirty
: and I am almost the oldest YW I know. I believe the oldest one I know is only
: three or four years older than I am. Maybe in the UK?
The first Indians to set foot in North America were probably Punjabis(Sikhs)
who settled on the west coast in the late nineteenth and early twentieth
century. There is a quite an interesting anecdote where Indians were not
allowed to become citizens as they were not considered to be whites. I guess
Muslims were but Hindoos weren't. In a case in Oregon one Hindoo Brahmin
argued that since he was an aryan hence he was white and hence he should
be allowed to be citizen. While that was upheld I guess a later law prevented
Indians from being able to emigrate as were other Asians like Chinese.
Anyway back in the early part of the century lot of Indian revolutionaries
were in US forming the movements like Ghaddar Party. Infact a Bengali happened
to have turn in his friends to the authorities in one of the cases. Anyway
that's a different story which goes back to 1915. And I would imagine most of
them somehow stayed back. Regarding UK one should remember that Indians had
been travelling to England since early part of nineteenth century. Both
Rammohun Roy and Dwarkanath Tagore died in UK..Toru and Shoshee Dutt spend
most of their lives in UK..and it goes on...hence it is not unlikely the
second generation (I'm avoiding all those labels of ABCD/YW/OF/PIGS et al
as they make no sense to me) in UK was born in nineteenth century itself.
Infact Dalip Singh (heir to the throne of Ranjit Singh) had to settle down
in London itself after being exiled to England in last century. People like
Ranjitsinghji and Duleepsinghji represented England in their cricket Test
matches. Even as late as 1930s('32?) I. Pataudi (father of Mansur Pataudi)
represented England in the infamous bodyline series against Australia. Its
a different story that he was dropped after scoring 102 because he was too
slow for Jardine. Anyway Indians (especially from northern UP, Garhwal
region) were brought into Carribbean Islands, Fijis, South Africa et al
to work in the sugar plantations et al as laborers (slaves ??) in
late nineteenth and early twentieth century. Thus we have huge Indian
communities in Fiji Isl., Carribbean Isl., SA et al. V.S. Naipaul/Shiv Naipaul
are probably fourth generation in the Carribbeans...Unless you're
considering second generation to the people who emigrated after 1965
when Exclusion Act to Asians in US was scrapped I guess you'd find
many more people of Indian origin outside the Indian Subcontinent in the
Western World. Ahh..I forgot to add that there were hundreds of thousands
of Indian soldiers who fought for Pax Britannica in both WW's in Europe,
North Africa, S. Asia..et al. Infact a recent study revealed that there
was an Indian in the rank of Colonel in the notorious Hitler's SS Waffen.
Anyway broadly that's what I can remember from the top of my head.
Oh..I forgot perhaps the most adoring person in second generation of
Bengali origin is Dr. Anita Bose, daughter of Netaji and Emily Hsckenkel (?)
is in her mid forties and lives in Denmark (?). Mrs. Sckenkel, I guess is
still alive and lives in Austria (pl. correct me if I'm wrong). Abani
Mukherji who died in Stalin's concentration camp along with V.Chattopadhyay
married a Russian and had a daughter who was one of Russia's top neuro
surgeon in '70s at Kiev Univ (??). Dr. Amal Bose, founder of Bose Inc., and
a Professor at MIT is a son of a Bengali father and an European mother
who settled down in US is probably in his fifties...anyway so much for
today...
: >and broken on these very tenets - never put a generalization
: >down, or you'll end up a statistic...............
: >
: Well, all I can say is that this makes me very pleased to not have to call
: myself an ABCD. I always knew there was some reason I didn't care for that
: term.
: --
: ________________ _/-\________
: /|\ | / /| /| |
: \| | \ \| \| |
: *
regards,
Anindya.
--
email address: agho...@eng2.uconn.edu
axg7...@rosie.uh.edu
>this loan is not a large amount in dollar terms, it is sufficient to cover
>the cost of the air passage.
>
>More difficult for someone who is poor, is to find the resources to pay
>for the examination fees (GRE, TOEFL, etc) and the application fees for
>universities, which tend to be astronomical (when converted into rupees).
>If the financially strapped student can somehow manage to pay for these
>expenses by taking loans, however, it is usually easy to pay it back
>within a few months of coming here. I know a few people who were able to
>do this.
>
>-Sayan.
The biggest barrier is not the money
but the lack of information and role models. Of course money plays it part.
Arindam
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4hkdnr$g...@library.erc.clarkson.edu>, sn...@stress.mie.clarkson.edu (Snehasis Ganguly) writes:
SG> Chatro thegano ta important kaaj, kintu India-etey
SG> sob kajei baddo phankibaaji. IMO, thats why life in
SG> India as an Undergraduate is easier than here.
SG> Examples:-
SG> 1. Mugging just two days before final exam, no homeworks, no projects.
That wasn't quite the case in IITK. Are you generalizing from IIT KGP?
SG> 2. Handwriting reports without typing them out. Using hand drawings
SG> instead of AutoCAD etc.
So?
SG> 3. If at all there is a homework in any course, copying from the topper.
Happens in CS sometimes in IITK.
SG> 4.Chatro thegano--> Ardho ghumanto chatr-er samne bok bok koraa.. tar
SG> assignment guno thik korey na dekha..(much phanki as compared to
SG> tutoring here).
SG> 5. Relying more on rote memory(works:-) than understanding.
That again wasn't quite true of IITK.
-Shubu
rishi bhattacharjee
Ami karor oporei khere ba chote nei. Tomra ba ar keu kintu bhul bujhona. Ami
ekta generalization-er against-e amar matamat janiyechi. Amar prachur bhalo
America born bondhu (bong and non-bong) achche. Tadero ami amar post ebong
tar reply gulo dekhiyechi. Tabe ekta katha tader ami bolechi, je kono ek
shakale suddenly amar ei post karar ichche hoini. For the last one month
mushtimeo kayekjan ei YW byaparta niye besh anek kapcha-kopchi koreche ba
korche. SAheta niyei jhamela. Ke bhalo ar ke kharap shei niye amar mantabya
noi, I am protesting the barrage of unauthenticated mud-slinging thrown agaist
us Bhatoodbhuto abong bharote janma bangalider jonyo. Keui kichu bolchilo na,
tai ami tarwal tullam. Tar mane ei noi je ami constructive criticism nebona
ba shunbona. Sheta bokamo. Amar lekhate reality check ache ebong gut-check-o
achche. Tabe some people may find something wrong in that and that is OK.
Shabai to ar shab kichu manbe na. Amar SCB post gulo dictatorial noi. I need
opinion, ja niye amra intellectualra (sop-called) beche achchi. At the end,
my america born brothers and sisters, I have nothing against u guys, only
thing is if u criticise us, please do by the way, give facts and jusr not
hearsay.
Rishi-babu
Thanks Apra
sayan bhattacharyya
Snehasis Ganguly <sn...@stress.mie.clarkson.edu> wrote:
>
> Who will give loans for applying for TOEFL, application fees
> (average $50 per university)?
Obviously academically strapped students cannot enjoy the luxury of
applying to a large number of universities at the same time.
> In fact from the figures of last
> year I heard 1.5lakhs-2.0 lakhs is the current khorcha for
> applying.
What???
Boy, I'm glad that I was not born 5 years later than I was. I could
never have afforded that kind of money for application fees!
Also, isn't there some kind of foreign exchange cap that you cannot
buy more than $200 (or some such figure) from the Reserve Bank of India
for the purpose of application fees within one calendar year? This was in
fact the reason why I had to take the GRE and the TOEFL in two different
years.
If some such cap is still in place, how come people are buying 2 lakhs
worth of dollars from the Reserve Bank of India???
> You and others have pointed out that a few Indian students
> struggle hard to make both ends meet. However, no Indian
> student faces the triple pressures of tuition, room&
> board and back breaking courses.
Similarly no undergraduate student in the USA faces the pressure of
supplementing the family income (on account of aged and retired
parents) that many in India do, because welfare, medicaid and medicare takes
care of the needs of the elderly. There is no welfare in India.
> Have you noticed that a lot of undergraduate students
> can't afford to have cars?
Have you noticed that _no_ undergraduate students in India can
afford to have cars? The comparison is just not valid.
> Also, there are multiple overheads
> like compulsory dorm residence, phone bills(for jobs) and
> books.
Many of my classmates at Jadavpur University were from the districts
and had to stay in rented accommodation for the first year or so
because there aren't enough hostel rooms. Do you have any idea how
expensive rented accommodation can be in Calcutta?
Also, do you mean to say that Indian students do not need to buy books?
-Sayan.
Sambit Basu
>> Chhatro thyangano qualify korbe ki? Ta'le OF-der loDai-er
>> akta jayga aachhe. Noile shommanjonok poshchaatoposhoron.
> Ekdam korbe na. Kothai khabarkhana'i bason dhowa, babysitting kara
> (class 10 ar nursury ek holo Sambit?) ar strip club'e nacha (amar
> ek porichito YW e-i kore Medical school'e jachchhilen) - ar kothai
> chhele thengyano. Chha ghanta kore hapta-i char din nacho na dekhi -
> tengri khule jabe. Ar proman size'r bason theke shuorer chorbi tola
> je ki jinish ta amar nijer experience'ei achhe ... :-)
Guru, tumi amar chhatro-der thyangaoni to, tai bolchho. Bechhe
bechhe typo-ola onko niye ashto - aar kichhutei milto na.
BTW, tomar ak-i logic-e Software programming-er theke
rastay kagoj-kuDono onek shokto :)
[asha kori tomar ba Sayan-er sMriti-te jong dhoreni]
>>> responsible. Deshe thakle jara US'e palate parle bNache, edeshe elei
>>> Bangla culture niye bhulbhal funda debar tempo eshob lok'r eto beRe jai
>>> keno, tai bhabi - chhelemeyeder opor jagakhichuRi experiment ... jak
>>> ge, raat holo ghumote jai.
>>
>> "...nijobaash akanto ojana,
>> aajonmoprobaashi, tai nana -
>> shwodeshiyo sMriti-i bilash..."
> Eta ghatona, noile ar amra SCB'te bhatai ...
Arekta karon aachhe. Biplob-er shohoj paath.
Regards,
Sambit
sayan bhattacharyya
Snehasis Ganguly <sn...@stress.mie.clarkson.edu> wrote:
>
>Please note that unlike India, there is very little system of
>public transport here.
>So, car is needed for survival and not luxury.
I dispute this. I have lived in this country for a total of four
years now, and I have so far refused to learn to drive. I ride
my bicycle 365 days a year. On an average I spend 1-2 hours
each day on my bike. Yes, it is hard when it is snowing
and the roads are slippery, but I manage. Riding a bicycle is
enormously more friendly to the environment than riding a car.
So I posit that, yes, riding a car IS a luxury which you can
dispense with, if you have the will.
-Sayan.
sayan bhattacharyya
Snehasis Ganguly <sn...@stress.mie.clarkson.edu> wrote:
>
Yes, I think.
-Sayan.
Chaitali Basu
> bhat...@heron.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
> >Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
>
> >But what if the "private tuitiony" involves commuting by public transport
> >every day during the Calcutta rush hour? Tate-o kintu Tengri khule jay,
>
> Na guru, jai na. Jatoi tumi balo. O ami-o korechhi. Chha ghanta ar
> ek ghanta-du ghanta ek noi. Neche dekho kayek hapta, tappore bujhbe.
> (Night club'e na nile ekla gharei neche dekho na hoi?)
Prothom du shoptaho khoob kasto hobe. Jodi porjapto porimane pain killer
aar muscle relaxant kheye nachha-ta continue kore jete paren to tarpor
aar ato kasto nayo hote paare.
TachaDa apnar Kolkatar bus/train-e kore rush hour-e giye akta gabet/doshyi
chatro-r kachhe du ghonta bokata temon koTin noye mone holeyi je apnar oi
porichito YW'r-O ota-ke better and easier option mone hobe, eta-I ba
bhabchhen kano?
> >-Sayan.
>
> Apratim.
Chaitali
Chaitali Basu
> >Aar oi middle class kothata bollen bole bhorsha peye akta kotha bole
> >felchhi. Middle class bangali meyeder to "debi" hote shekhano hoye na,
> >tai ota nijeder naam-er pashe dekhle kemon akta psychological pressure
> >poDe jaye. Mone hoye bujhi onno karur shonge kotha bolchhen. Ota baaD dite
> >ki khoob-I kasto hobe?
>
> Shudhu ektibar mukh fute bala'r apekkha. Ta, Ms. Basu cholbe? Naam
> dhore sambodhan swalpo-porichaye baro sayebi kaida. :-)
Akta compromise kora jak. Naam na dhore kotha bolle kemon hoye? Ms.
Basu-tao ektu sayebi-I hoye poDe...ki bolen?
> Apratim.
Chaitali
Chaitali Basu
> Sayan, your silence was golden, now that you have again decided to
> unload your thoughts on poor creatures like us let me tell you
> Guess what? you are being utterly ridiculuous and may I suggest you
> to stick to the topics that most of us don't even care about to read
> or reply.
Even if you read something that you find utterly ridiculous on a topic
that you care to read, you don't need to follow it up...right? You can
just ignore them. The rest who are following him up may agree or
disagree with him but maynot be finding his statements so
utterly ridiculous. Why deprive them?
> Rajiv
Chaitali
Sandeep Kumar Shukla
unload your thoughts on poor creatures like us let me tell you
heard that there is something called productivity, i.e if you ever
work in this country you have to produce results and for that
most of the times you have to work hard, see what I mean? Sometimes
you need to go to office in odd hours, sometimes you need to stay
at odd hours, sometimes you need to visit clients at odd places and
at odd times. Do you seriously believe that buying a car is a luxury
in this country and you can go all places on your bicycle?
Guess what? you are being utterly ridiculuous and may I suggest you
to stick to the topics that most of us don't even care about to read
or reply.
I have been in USA for the last 2.5 years and have stayed in both the
coasts, without a car I have faced so many problems that I don't think
you can imagine. The amount of flexibilty that you lose by not having
a car is so enormous that you can only afford that as a good for
nothing graduate student.
Rajiv
Chaitali Basu
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960311102900.5652B-100000@spcm4> Chaitali Basu <chaitali@spcm4> writes:
>
> >Prothom du shoptaho khoob kasto hobe. Jodi porjapto porimane pain killer
> >aar muscle relaxant kheye nachha-ta continue kore jete paren to tarpor
> >aar ato kasto nayo hote paare.
>
> Eta ki Kolkata'r rush hour sammondheo applicable?
Ei method of action applicable noye kintu Kolkata-r rush hour-eo bayirer
lok-er jato kasto hoye, Kolkatar bashinda-der ki tato hoye? Ei Europe-er
bus-er bhir Kolkatar tulonaye kichhui noye, Shekhane-O lok-e bale
claustrophobic feel korchhe. Ashole shobi oi "shorire-r naam mohashoye ja
shohabe tai shoye" probochon-e fela jaye, particularly physical labour
to a certain extent-er.
> >TachaDa apnar Kolkatar bus/train-e kore rush hour-e giye akta gabet/doshyi
> >chatro-r kachhe du ghonta bokata temon koTin noye mone holeyi je apnar oi
> >porichito YW'r-O ota-ke better and easier option mone hobe, eta-I ba
> >bhabchhen kano?
>
> Bhabchhi na to.
bNachalen. Noeto ami dhonde chilum je Amita Datta CU-er English dept-er
shukher chakri-ta cheDe oi dosh ghonta naach-er practice korar option-ta
nilen kano bhebe.
> Apratim.
Chaitali
Anindya Ghoshal
Regarding your enquiry about the ref. or books to the follow-up I wrote
some weeks back in this thread here are few.
Unfortunately I can't remember all of what i wrote but
I guess your primary query was to the first few lines of the article.
(i) Ram Srivastav & George Kurian: Overseas Indians. 1983. (this contains
about 12-13 publications by experts on this field on overseas indian
experiences in Canada, fiji, Australia, UK and California. Please refer
to Dr.Bruce La Brack's one on Sikhs in California. It traces back its history
to the coming of Sikhs in late 19th Cent .)
(ii) The Asian American: The Historical Experience: ed Norris Hundley 1976.
which included an article originally published by Gary R. Hess in the Pacific
Historical Review in 1974 under the title "The Forgotten Asian Americans:
The East Indian
Community in the United States."
(iii) South Asians in North America: An Annotated and Selected Bibliography
edited by Jane Singh and others :University of California, Berkeley.
(iv) Reconstituting South Asian Studies for a Diasporic Age: Rosane Rocher
Sagar Journal, Vol.1, No.2. In Vol 2., No 1, Rosane Rochar's bibliography
on South Asian American Studies is the most exhaustive one that i've found so
far.
(v) Others text includes: Randhir Singh: Ghaddar Heroes, Bombay, 1945,
M. N. Roy: Collected Works. HarDayal: (a) Collected Papers (2) 40 weeks
in Germany and Turkey. These writings give an insight to the Indians
present in North America at the start of 20th Cent. and of course their
participation in Ghaddar movement. Also a biography of HarDayal by
Emily Brown :Hindu Revolutionary and Rationalist.
(vi) Barrier, N. Gerald and Verne A. Dusenbery, ed. The Sikh Diaspora:
Migration and the Experience beyond Punjab. Delhi: Chanakya, 1989.
(vii) Tatla, Darshan Singh, ed. Sikhs in North America: An Annotated
Bibliography. New York.
(viii) V. Naipaul's autobiographical novels gives a pretty good insight in
the history of his forefathers who were brought as identured laborers from
india to Trinidad. If my memory doesn't fail me badly, I remember there is
an article on this in Overseas Indians as in ref(1) about Indians in
Trinidad but I personally have great reservations on the comparison that was
done between Trinidad's Indians and Indians back at India.
(ix) Two movies: 'Bhaji on the Beaches' and Trilok Malik's 'An Indian in New
York' (Please check the name of the second movie as I can't remember it
from the top of my
head). I found both the movies to be pretty good to watch.
(x) There were a series of articles posted on internet couple of years
back on the origin of Asian American Indians..unfortunately I lost the files
and hence can't forward them. But I guess you can find the back issues
in http://www.dejanews.com
(xi) Here I would refer to the lecture that a Prof. from Brown University
gave here at UCONN Asian American Center on Racism against Asians in US
last spring. The prof. himself was a fourth generation Chinese American and
had written atleast three books on the subject. The Oregon incident was
heard from his lecture. One can also refer to the Vancouver riots that the Asians
including Sikhs faced around 1907 to anyone of the above refs. Randhir Singh
described it in fair details (ref(v)).
(xii) Judith Brown and (sorry can't remember the name of the second author)
came out with a book on 'South Asian immigrants experience in UK' last year.
Prof. Brown's book provides a remarkable insight to such an experience.Not only
the authoress is well known historian, being the Bailor Prof. of Oxford Univ.,
an authority on the sub-continent's history but she was born in India and
regularly travels back to India for lectures and research purposes. Hence
I considered the book to be unique.
Hope this satisfies your query..unfortunately if errors that might have crept
in the articles please don't hesitate to correct me and I apologise for
those mistakes in advance.
regards,
Anindya.
P.S. In this thread I have found that unfortunately most of the first
generation Indians showing practically a contempt for the original article
that KC wrote but fact remains that the same question would be asked by their
next generation especially those who might choose to remain in US. However
I wonder would there be really much difference in the cultural development
of a kid in the 21st Cent. whether here in North America or in India as the global
culture continues to permeate beyond national boundaries. Hence I guess
even those who ultimately return back to India might have to face the
same questions of KC within the next two generations..
--
email address: agho...@eng2.uconn.edu
Apratim Sarkar
>Ei method of action applicable noye kintu Kolkata-r rush hour-eo bayirer
>lok-er jato kasto hoye, Kolkatar bashinda-der ki tato hoye? Ei Europe-er
>bus-er bhir Kolkatar tulonaye kichhui noye, Shekhane-O lok-e bale
>claustrophobic feel korchhe. Ashole shobi oi "shorire-r naam mohashoye ja
>shohabe tai shoye" probochon-e fela jaye, particularly physical labour
>to a certain extent-er.
Tahole OF'ra bishesh kono kashto karen ni bolchhen?
>bNachalen. Noeto ami dhonde chilum je Amita Datta CU-er English dept-er
>shukher chakri-ta cheDe oi dosh ghonta naach-er practice korar option-ta
>nilen kano bhebe.
BNachete pere anandito.
>Chaitali
Apra.
--
No doubt the world is entirely an Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are
imaginary world, but it is only once are my own and shouldn't be construed in
removed from the true world. any way to represent that of my employer.
- Isaac Bashevis Singer.
Apratim Sarkar
>"Aram" is a relative term. Yes, your and my life were incredibly cushy
>compared to the way the majority of people in our country eke out their
>living. At the same time, most (not all) Americans also have many more
>opportunities and better lives than you and I had while we were growing up.
Agreed, but my point was about Rishibabu's naake kNaada wrt first-
generation'der du:kho kashta. American'ra tomar theke bhalo thekechhe
manei tumi du:khe thekechho, ta noi, etai bojhano'r chesta korchhilam
ar ki.
>Eto boRo odbhut kotha holo. Ami ba tumi Ferdinand Magellan-er moto prithibi
>konodin prodokshin kori ni somudrobokshe, kintu tai bole ki "prithibi gol" eta
>sweekar korte amader badha uchit? Loke na jene bhulbhal kotha bole jabe,
>seTa songshodhon kore debo na?
Tar, ebang ki bhul, Sayan? BTW, tomar ki Rishibabu'r kathabarta
thikthak mone hoyechhe naki!? Mone rekho, puro alochana'ta shuru
hoyechhilo first ebang second genration'der niye, shekhane desh'r
aam-janota figure kare na bolei amar dharona.
>-Sayan.
Anindya Ghoshal
: (xii) Judith Brown and (sorry can't remember the name of the second author)
: came out with a book on 'South Asian immigrants experience in UK' last year.
I apologise for the my mistake as above:
The book referred to is:
Judith M. Brown and Rosemary Foot eds : Migration, The Asian Experience,
NY, 1994
Sudeshna Das
: Guru, tumi amar chhatro-der thyangaoni to, tai bolchho. Bechhe
: bechhe typo-ola onko niye ashto - aar kichhutei milto na.
Jao be, amar ek chhatro test nebo bolechhilen bole paRa'r neRi kukur
leliye diyechhilo. (Eta kintu really ghatana. Tomader Salt Lake'r
jato shoukhin kaida.)
: BTW, tomar ak-i logic-e Software programming-er theke
: rastay kagoj-kuDono onek shokto :)
Anek beshi porishram'r bole mone hoi. Shakto kina jani na. Korini to
konodin. Tabe amar to baRi porishkar korlei komor dhore jai. Shab IMO,
of course.
: [asha kori tomar ba Sayan-er sMriti-te jong dhoreni]
Eki mairi Sayan'r shange amar legechhilo SW'r lokeder beshi maine
pabar justification achhe ki nei, e-i niye! Konta beshi shakto ta
niye to noi. Maine'r shange konta beshi shakto (ki for that matter
konta beshi porishram'r) tar ki connection?
: Regards,
: Sambit
Regards,
Apra.
PS: Abdulbabu'r binimaye kichhu pai? Deb Gandhar shunle? Kemon laglo?
Anindya Ghoshal
: Sayan, your silence was golden, now that you have again decided to
A mutual friend tells me that a rightist fundee of the saffron hue
threatened Sayan but don't know whether that caused his silence for a
while.
: unload your thoughts on poor creatures like us let me tell you
: something, being a student almost all your life probably you haven't
: heard that there is something called productivity, i.e if you ever
: work in this country you have to produce results and for that
: most of the times you have to work hard, see what I mean? Sometimes
: you need to go to office in odd hours, sometimes you need to stay
: at odd hours, sometimes you need to visit clients at odd places and
: at odd times. Do you seriously believe that buying a car is a luxury
: in this country and you can go all places on your bicycle?
Its a hilly countryside here with huge ups and downs..the nearest markets
and malls are 10-15 miles away. Mountain biking is a popular sport with
all those trails across Connecticut River Valley. It is practically
impossible to do without a car here as bus/train service are virtually
non-existent excepting linking major cities like Boston, Springfield,
Hartford, New York City...the campus itself is spread over 2 miles
encompassing the Storrs Valley.
: Guess what? you are being utterly ridiculuous and may I suggest you
: to stick to the topics that most of us don't even care about to read
: or reply.
: I have been in USA for the last 2.5 years and have stayed in both the
: coasts, without a car I have faced so many problems that I don't think
: you can imagine. The amount of flexibilty that you lose by not having
: a car is so enormous that you can only afford that as a good for
: nothing graduate student.
It is not an easy thing to walk for a mile and half with wind blowing
across one's face at -15 degrees to get to a place to eat or to buy
some essential items.
: Rajiv
Lastly with hardly anything existing like a pedestrian walk, biking enthusiasts
and soliloquy walkers prove to be hazards to the dreary eyed motorists
in the middle of the night in those winding hilly countryside roads where
there exists hardly any street lighting.
It is an extremely beautiful place with a great lovable snowy winter but alas
not without a car and proper heating ;-) And for us who are motor driving
enthusiasts, driving under icy conditions on hilly roads remains to be
full of thrill and excitement. When was the last time did ye' drove over
a snow bank and didn't get stuck ??? ;-) ;-)
regards,
Chaitali Basu
> Mone rekho, puro alochana'ta shuru
> hoyechhilo first ebang second genration'der niye, shekhane desh'r
> aam-janota figure kare na bolei amar dharona.
> Apra.
Apnar ei post-ta poDe nijer opor astha fire pelum. Amio to prothom-e tai
bhebechilum je shobai akmot hoechhen je first generation Indian jara ashe
tader majority deshe khoob akta financial kasto shojho koreni. Exception
achhe kintu tara exception-I. Tarpor kon fNake je puro middle class
society of India eshe poDlo o taro por thik kakhon labour o taar daam eshe
poDlo, bujhte parini. Ami shompurno discussion-tar kheyi hariye
fele, protyekbaar ja kori shei editor-e lekha asheni-r dohayi diye
khanik shantona paowar chesta korchilum. Thik ei somoy akjon mukhyo
alochok-er mukh theke ato clear cut explanation peye jwathatho-I swasti
bodh korchhi.
Dhonyobaad.
Chaitali