LF started Calcutta riots
Dinesh Agrawal
LF Minister Kalimiddin behind Calcutta riots?
BLITZ SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
June 6, 1996
IT was the fight for control over the Kabitirtha Assembly constituency
between the two local politicians which believed to have led to Calcutta's
hour of shame, last week.
The mindless communal frenzy, which rocked the Southern fringes of the city
on the auspicious occasion of Muhharam, left five persons dead and a
hundred others injured.
Talking to `Blitz', informed officials sources said that there were enough
pointers to believe that the riots were a backlash of the poll outcome in
Kabitirtha Assembly segment.
The controversial left front minister from the area, Kalimuddin Sham
shifted to a safe constituency outside Calcutta this time, leaving the
Kabitirtha Assembly seat to his son Moinuddin. But his son lost to the
Congress nominee Ram Peyare Ram, an arch rival of the Shams.
Kalimuddin, it is alleged, failed to accept the defeat gracefully. His
supporters therefore deliberately stoked passions and resorted to violence
to discredit Ram.
The Congress legislator, needless to say, has its back against the wall. To
his horror, the minority community -- which constitutes a sizeable section
of the electorate in his constituency -- are seething in rage against him,
for his inability to save them from the police ire.
CALCUTTA'S night skyline acquired a reddish hue on May 30, as communal
riots rocked the areas coming under the city's southern outskirts like
Watgunje, Ekbalpore, South Port and Garden Reach. The members of the Hindu
and Muslim communities fought pitched battles, hurling bombs and setting
shops on fire, on the auspicious occasion of Muharram.
While passions flared up, even the police got carried away. Cops in
plainclothes went after members of the minority community, adding to the
lawlessness that had the city under siege for a couple of days.
It was Calcutta's hour of shame and Calcuttans, who prided themselves for
their cultural fineness and religious amity hung their heads in shame.
The ruling Marxists virtually saw red, as they found to their horror the
state's fabled law and order take a severe beating.
At the end of the tumultuous days, when serenity returned, over five people
have been killed and hundred others injured, some grievously.
As Calcuttans picked up the threads of their normal lives once more, the
deep emotional scars remained. The air continues to be thick with religious
distrust mixed with a tinge of hatred.
It all started with taking out an tazia processions on Muharram. The police
had given permission for 13 tazia processions in all. But some minority
members took out another -- albeit an unauthorised one -- and demanded that
they be allowed to go through a 150-metre stretch in Dompatti, a Hindu
dwelling nestling between two minority dominated belts, so that they could
join the main procession at Ekbalpore crossing.
The local police refused and trouble started shortly thereafter.
The processionists put up a roadblock and refused to budge, unless they
were given the right of passage.
The authorities initially sought to talk and negotiate, instead of
resorting to heavy handed measures. That was mistaken as a weakness and the
volatile processionists got more furious by the hour.
The Rapid Action Force had to be finally called to physically remove the
roadblock. In the melee, the tazia overturned and immediately sparks flew.
Rumours spread that a tazia had come under attack. Violence spread and the
entire southern fringe close to the Calcutta Port was engulfed in flames
within no time.
Trouble broke out within minutes. But it took days for normalcy to return.
Queering the pitch were plainclothes policemen from the nearby Alipore
Bodyguards Lines.
They hit back at the agitated processionists, chasing them with lathis and
ransacking whatever that came in the way. The processionists retaliated
with bombs.
All hell broke loose and curfew had to be clamped. Army was called in and
it was only after days that the area limped back to normal.
Such has been the fallout of the riots that the police have gone berserk.
At night, they are knocking at doors and picking up members of the minority
community at will on mere suspicion. While families of those dead grieve,
those who have survived the orgy are stiff scared. The army is still
patrolling the streets of the city's southern fringes, but it would be long
before the compelling fear and the over riding sense of insecurity that
stalks the area goes away.
Supratik Das
On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, Dinesh Agrawal wrote:
> LF Minister Kalimiddin behind Calcutta riots?
> BLITZ SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
> June 6, 1996
>
> IT was the fight for control over the Kabitirtha Assembly constituency
> between the two local politicians which believed to have led to Calcutta's
> hour of shame, last week.
I guess this article is from the magazine Blitz. This report contradicts
Mr. Soumitra Bose's conspiracy theory which I guess was a figment
of his imagination or a product of his creative mind. Thanks for posting
the truth.
Regards,
Supratik.
sayan bhattacharyya
Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> wrote:
>
>I guess this article is from the magazine Blitz. This report contradicts
>Mr. Soumitra Bose's conspiracy theory which I guess was a figment
>of his imagination or a product of his creative mind. Thanks for posting
>the truth.
For all I know, the rioting may well have been initiated by Shams, by
Hindu or Muslim fundamentalists or by some other interested party.
However, it is interesting that the Blitz article quoted by Dinesh
Agarwal merely says that anonymous "sources" claim that "there are pointers
to believe" that the rioting was initiated by Shams. In usenet postings,
we do not take anonymous postings seriously because we see no reason to
to take seriously the claims of persons who do not have the courage to
stand up and be counted for what they are saying. Similarly, whenever
I see a news report which only quotes anonymous "sources" with no independent
substantiation, I am a little wary of accepting it as "truth".
Thus, while not discounting any of the theories floating around, it also
is worth pointing out that Soumitra Bose's conspiracy theory seems
better substantiated at this point than Blitz/Dinesh Agarwal's conspiracy
theory (Soumitra claims that his theory is supported by evidence unearthed
by fact-finding teams of Association for Protection of Democratic Rights,
APDR, hardly a pro-LF organization, by the way -- while Blitz's evidence
rests on vague and undisclosed "anonymous sources").
-Sayan.
BABU RAMABADRAN
This article is written for muslims of indian subcontinent and the
arguments presented herein are based on the following facts:
1. The 75% of the population of the indian populations is hindu
2. About the 50% of indians are illeterate and out of rest only a very
small percentage are Bachelor.
3. The illeterates and the lesser educated are not corrupted by the
pseudo-secularist education and are therefor true hindus ( unlike the
educated pseudo-secular indians encountered on net)
4. There is a rising hatred towards muslims as the muslims are
responsible for the most of communal problems and the division of the
country.
5. The leadership of the muslims in india has moved from traditional
leaders and the mullahs to new muslim champions like Mulayam Singh
Yadav and Lalloo.
6. The hindutva force is getting firmer in india and is now cutting
across the regional and languistic boundries . It is no more located to
traditional cow belt.
7. Hindutva movement has become a mass movement and is no longer in
full control of BJP/RSS/VHP etc.
The recent riots in the calcutta engineered by the muslims is
good pointer to the present scenario in india. I will use the same news
to prove my thesis. This will be a good reading for the muslims of the
indian subcontinent to wake up and realize there real strength and
bargaining power. Many will try to brand me as fascist, communal,
bully etc, they are welcome, but they should pay attention to what i
have tried to convey.
The hatred towards the muslims among hindus dates back to the pre
independence era when the congress leaders promised the independence
but hindus did not know that the independence will come with the
division of the country. NO real patrioit is happy with the freedom
which divided the country. Country feels cheated by NEHRU/GANDHI and
there blunders. More than the division of the country, the numerous
crimes committed on the hindus and the continuence of the same trend is
what irks the hindu most. It was thought that after the division of the
india, the muslims will live like good indians, but the dreams fo the
hindus are shattered as the muslims are still doing what there
forefathers did as muslims against the hindus. The hindus suffered one
humiliation after another with the hope that it will end now. They
concided all the demands of the muslims with the hope that the muslims
will be happy now and will let hindus live peacefully. Nothing
happened, and today hindu finds it in the same situation as he was in
the years before the partition of the country. The muslims of the
india are as much demanding as they were before 1947. They do not have
any guilt of partitioning the india. The muslims feel there fundamental
duty to pseters muslims. After all this is what they learn from the
QUARAN which dictates them to destroy anything that is non-mulims.
There for the hinduism being non-muslims is under constant attack of
mulims. HINDUS have always been ignorant of this partof the quaran that
teaches muslims to destroy non-belivers and idolaters. The muslims of
the pre-partitioned india objected the same thing that they are
objecting now.
1. Oppostion to Vande-mataram
2. Opposition to cow-slaughter ban
3. Restoration of hindu temples
4. The oppostioin to uniform civil code. Rather muslims of the
pre-partitioned india were demandin seperate electorate ( which they
were given also ).
The history repeats itself and we find ourselves in the same
situation in which our forefathers lived. The muslim comnmunalism is
again repeating. That is true, the situation today is same in india but
for one thing, INDIA DOES NOT HAVE GANDHI AND NEHRU TODAY. THE HINDU
PSYCHE IS NOT SAME AS IT WAS IN 1940. MUSLIMS ARE NO LONGER CONSIDERD
AS THE BROTHERS OF HINDUS. HINDUS ARE CONVINCED THAT THERE WILL BE NO
PPEACE IN INDIA UNTILL THE ISLAM IS THERE, UNTILL JEHAD IS THERE And
this fact should make muslims unfomfortable.
The muslims should now try to conform to the hindus.That is the
best way to assure there safety. If they still lived in pre-partition
mental makeup they will invite troubles for them. The anti-muslim
thinking is not limited to some strong hindutvaa supporter like me
only. Every hindu thinks like me to a very large extent . The only
difference between me and other hindus is in the method. I believe that
try to explain muslims, and if they do not understand, then butcher
them. Some hindus differ in straight slaughter and will try to adopot
some moderate method. What ever the difference between me and common
hindus, they all agree that the muslims have crossed the limits and
must be given right treatment. No doubt this will involve bloodshed but
can be avoided if the muslims agree it before bloodshed. It is no use
to accept something after some people have been killed. Muslims must
come out of there medival mentality.
Now I will comment the newsitem
===============news item=======
>
>LF Minister Kalimiddin behind Calcutta riots?
>BLITZ SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
>June 6, 1996
>
>IT was the fight for control over the Kabitirtha Assembly constituency
>between the two local politicians which believed to have led to
Calcutta's
>hour of shame, last week.
>
>The mindless communal frenzy, which rocked the Southern fringes of the
city
>on the auspicious occasion of Muhharam, left five persons dead and a
>hundred others injured.
[ stuff deleted for precision.........]
>
>While passions flared up, even the police got carried away. Cops in
>plainclothes went after members of the minority community, adding to
the
>lawlessness that had the city under siege for a couple of days.
The involvement of the police does not show that the police failed
to do there duty, but it points that the hindus policeman were
convinced that the menace of the muslims cannot be effectivily within
the purview of the law. The extra-legal actions shows that the police
was convinced that the muslims were at fault and force is the remedy.
This also shows the belief among the hindu masses and the police that
if the right action was not taken at the right time, the muslims will
never realize it. After all all the rioters scott free after the dust
settles. It also proves that the policemen reached the limits of there
patience and the find it right to beat muslims. The logic is that the
muslims do not understand anything except terror.
>
>It was Calcutta's hour of shame and Calcuttans, who prided themselves
for
>their cultural fineness and religious amity hung their heads in shame.
It was shame for some pseudo-secularist but was another event
strengthning the hindu aweakening and hindu-millitarization. I am happy
that after all the policemen realized that the millitarization of the
hindu society is must. It should be eye-opener for the muslims also. If
the muslim had agreed to take there procession throught the route
prescribed the administration, there would have been no rioting.
[ more stuff deleted ]
>
>Trouble broke out within minutes. But it took days for normalcy to
return.
>Queering the pitch were plainclothes policemen from the nearby Alipore
>Bodyguards Lines.
>
>They hit back at the agitated processionists, chasing them with lathis
and
>ransacking whatever that came in the way. The processionists
retaliated
>with bombs.
This also shows how agitated were the policemen. Again supports
what I have been saying for long. The hindutvaa movement has reached to
the grassroot levels and it is no longer controllable by some
pseudo-secular leaders and intellectuals. West Bengal is not governed
by the BJP nor it has any respectable presence in WB. Also the it was
congress and LF which was responisble for the riots. It points to the
fact that the hindutvaa is now accepted ideology by people all over
india.
>Such has been the fallout of the riots that the police have gone
berserk.
>At night, they are knocking at doors and picking up members of the
minority
>community at will on mere suspicion. While families of those dead
grieve,
>those who have survived the orgy are stiff scared.
The same kind of the thing again.
Muslims should note that very few hindus are pseudo-seculars. Most
of the hindus are still hindus. In the rural areas, the level of
education is very low . The low level of education is not a shame as
they are not yet corroupted by pseudo-secular education. There hindu
mind is not diverted. There for if a muslims will create problem in
rurla areas , it will be treated properly. Even pseudo-secularist
hindus have begin to understand that the muslims are hard nut to
crack. The only solutioin is to leave them to there own fate and let
them learn by them selves.
Most of the pseudo-secularist are the person who have accepted
whatever they were taught in the schools as true. They do not undestand
the ground realities. But the average indian is not like that. It has
observed over the years that the muslims will not understand unless
there life is at threat.
The present problems is aggravated by the fact that there is no
mulims leader today that can guide the muslim society today. The
traditional leaders like Imam Bukhari, Sayed Shahbuddin,Salman
Khurshid, Gulam Nabi Azad, Jaffer Sherif have lost the faith of the
muslims. On the top of that the Mulayam Singh and Laloo yadav have
beocme the champions of the muslims society. Well most fo the muslims
leaders I mentioned above have lost there MP seats. This has given more
importance to Mulayam and Laloo. But are they true muslims well wishers
or they are interseted in the muslims vote.
There is a strong need for some patriot muslims to come up and
guide muslims. Probabily sikandar Bhakt could help but BJP is not in
power. I am forgetting the name of the muslim guy who was in the BJp
but he deserted when BJP refused to appease him for being muslims. Also
the muslims should know that there are lesser muslim MPs than there
were in 1991 parliament. It will be more difficult for the any muslim
leader to win election in future unless the muslim society of india
convince the hindus that they are as patritotc as they are expected.
The muslims should not pose a obstacle to hindus in matters of hindu
faith as it will not stop hindus from doing what they want to do, but
will only be result in muslim devastation. Definetly noone like this to
happen.
What Muslims should do
========================
1. Renounce communal leaders in muslims and pseudo-seculars in hindus.
2. They should see that if some hindus leaders are cheating hindus and
are talking of muslim intersts, how will they take care of muslims (
after all treator is traitor for every one)
3. Try to understand hindutvaa ideology and its strength. They should
give up all there demand objected by hindus. After all ther life is
more important then the islam. If they feel islam is more important
than there life, then it is different case.
4. Come out of disillusionment of pseudo-seculars.
The pseudo-seculars are guilty of misguiding the muslims and not
letting them understand the hindus. Because of the pseudo-seculars the
muslims feel that there is no anger in hindus; and the muslims have
support of the hindus. That is wrong. Also pseud-secualrs are
resposible for not letting the muslims to adapt to reality. The are
pampering muslims and thus making them vulnerable to violence.
5. Another misconception of the muslims is that hindus are divided in
the name of caste, region, language etc. Yes, if go by electoral
politics but when it comes to the point of hindu-muslims, then all the
hindus are hindus. Therefore even the calcutta is the communist
bastion, but when it came between the hindus and muslims, all hindus
were hindus and the muslims know what happened then. It may be seen
that hindus fight in the name of language and caste, but not anymore,
at least in case of hindu-muslim issues. As every day is passing, the
hindutvaa message is reaching every corner of india and the soon
muslims will find that they have no other option but to dance to the
tune of the hindus. Which there Quran will never allow, therefore they
will have to leave either QURAN or life. The Quran is not needed in
india as hinduism is there to take care of spiritual needs of indian.
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: This article is written for muslims of indian subcontinent and the
: arguments presented herein are based on the following facts:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A more correct statement should read "based on the following mixture of
facts, lies and half-truths."
: 1. The 75% of the population of the indian populations is hindu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought it was around 82-85%.
: 2. About the 50% of indians are illeterate and out of rest only a very
: small percentage are Bachelor.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
!!!!!. I think only a small percentage of the WHOLE population (and not
"of the rest") is bachelor. Rest are married.
: 3. The illeterates and the lesser educated are not corrupted by the
: pseudo-secularist education and are therefor true hindus ( unlike the
: educated pseudo-secular indians encountered on net)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would also like to assure the netters that the illiterates and the
lesser educated have much more tolerance for each other much unlike the
educated, computer literate Hindu fundamentalists like Babu Ramabhadran
: 4. There is a rising hatred towards muslims as the muslims are
: responsible for the most of communal problems and the division of the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: country.
The rising "hatred" if any, is more due to the strident propaganda of the
BJP, SS and RSS. This is Kafkaesque in its similarity with the rise of
Hitler and the Nazi propaganda against Jews.
: 5. The leadership of the muslims in india has moved from traditional
: leaders and the mullahs to new muslim champions like Mulayam Singh
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Yadav and Lalloo.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lalloo controlled a volatile state like Bihar when the country burned
after Babri masjid demolition. Give him credit for what he has done.
There was no riot in Bihar after Ayodhya. This should not be construed as
a support for the misdeeds of Laloo like the Animal Husbandry Scam.
: 6. The hindutva force is getting firmer in india and is now cutting
: across the regional and languistic boundries . It is no more located to
: traditional cow belt.
If your statement is true, then India has disaster staring at her face.
However, my interpretation of the electoral performance of BJP is that
lot of the votes were against Congress rather than being for BJP.
: 7. Hindutva movement has become a mass movement and is no longer in
: full control of BJP/RSS/VHP etc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is frightening. You mean that the frankenstein is now refusing to
obey its own master.
: The recent riots in the calcutta engineered by the muslims is
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You mean Muslims of Rajabazar and Central Calcutta also participated in
the problems in Khidderpore area?
: good pointer to the present scenario in india. I will use the same news
: to prove my thesis. This will be a good reading for the muslims of the
: indian subcontinent to wake up and realize there real strength and
: bargaining power. Many will try to brand me as fascist, communal,
: bully etc, they are welcome, but they should pay attention to what i
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: have tried to convey.
The only reason I pay attention to you is because I believe in Burke's
dictum that the only reason rquired for evil to survive is that good men
keep quiet.
: The hatred towards the muslims among hindus dates back to the pre
: independence era when the congress leaders promised the independence
: but hindus did not know that the independence will come with the
: division of the country. NO real patrioit is happy with the freedom
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am Bengali. We suffered because of the partition. You have a
non-bengali name. What may I ask, do you know of the trauma of partition
that seared the Bengalis? You are nothing but a fascist who wants to
brand everyone else unpatriotic because they are not like you. What may I
ask have you done for the Bengali refugees of Dandakaranya? Partition
happened due to a complex of reasons. Simplified secenarios like the ones
presented by you will lead us to repeat the history and not rebuild the
country.
: which divided the country. Country feels cheated by NEHRU/GANDHI and
: there blunders. More than the division of the country, the numerous
: crimes committed on the hindus and the continuence of the same trend is
: what irks the hindu most. It was thought that after the division of the
: india, the muslims will live like good indians, but the dreams fo the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: hindus are shattered as the muslims are still doing what there
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Most of the muslims do live life like good Indians. It is hate mongers
like you who need to have an outlet for their venom that create the problem.
: forefathers did as muslims against the hindus. The hindus suffered one
: humiliation after another with the hope that it will end now. They
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What were these humiliations? Please list them.
: concided all the demands of the muslims with the hope that the muslims
: will be happy now and will let hindus live peacefully. Nothing
: happened, and today hindu finds it in the same situation as he was in
: the years before the partition of the country. The muslims of the
: india are as much demanding as they were before 1947. They do not have
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: any guilt of partitioning the india. The muslims feel there fundamental
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I fail to see why the present day Muslims in India should apologise for
say Mohammed Ali Jinnah. I don't spend my day apologising for all the
humiliation heaped on the untouchables over generations. While we are at
it , would you list how the "muslims of india are as much demanding as
they were before 1947". Do look up the Govt. of India Act 1935, and who
were eligible to vote under that. The bulk of the people were excluded
from political role. You needed to be a tax payer in order to vote (inter
alia). That means the opinion of the rank and file of muslims (who like
most Indians were poor and therefore non-tax payers and therefore did not
have any voting rights) was not sought in the matter of partition.
: duty to pseters muslims. After all this is what they learn from the
: QUARAN which dictates them to destroy anything that is non-mulims.
: There for the hinduism being non-muslims is under constant attack of
: mulims. HINDUS have always been ignorant of this partof the quaran that
: teaches muslims to destroy non-belivers and idolaters. The muslims of
: the pre-partitioned india objected the same thing that they are
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: objecting now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: 1. Oppostion to Vande-mataram
: 2. Opposition to cow-slaughter ban
: 3. Restoration of hindu temples
: 4. The oppostioin to uniform civil code. Rather muslims of the
: pre-partitioned india were demandin seperate electorate ( which they
: were given also ).
You have raised these issues in another thread also. Today I have posted
a response to your issues raised above. Please read my response in the
other thread.
: The history repeats itself and we find ourselves in the same
: situation in which our forefathers lived. The muslim comnmunalism is
: again repeating. That is true, the situation today is same in india but
: for one thing, INDIA DOES NOT HAVE GANDHI AND NEHRU TODAY. THE HINDU
: PSYCHE IS NOT SAME AS IT WAS IN 1940. MUSLIMS ARE NO LONGER CONSIDERD
: AS THE BROTHERS OF HINDUS. HINDUS ARE CONVINCED THAT THERE WILL BE NO
: PPEACE IN INDIA UNTILL THE ISLAM IS THERE, UNTILL JEHAD IS THERE And
: this fact should make muslims unfomfortable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your strident tone and fascist overbearing attitude makes a lot of people
uncomfortable (including me) and not all of us are muslims (I am not.).
: The muslims should now try to conform to the hindus.That is the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: best way to assure there safety. If they still lived in pre-partition
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who else will have to conform to your dictum Mein Fuhrer?
: mental makeup they will invite troubles for them. The anti-muslim
: thinking is not limited to some strong hindutvaa supporter like me
: only. Every hindu thinks like me to a very large extent . The only
: difference between me and other hindus is in the method. I believe that
: try to explain muslims, and if they do not understand, then butcher
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: them. Some hindus differ in straight slaughter and will try to adopot
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So when are you going to explain to me that I should not eat beef, that I
should salute all the Gods and Godesses, that I should not support
Women's right to read the Vedas (Shankaracharya of Puri created a furore
in Calcutta, when he asked a women not to read the Vedas) and other
assorted whims that you may have and how do you plan to butcher me?
: some moderate method. What ever the difference between me and common
: hindus, they all agree that the muslims have crossed the limits and
: must be given right treatment. No doubt this will involve bloodshed but
: can be avoided if the muslims agree it before bloodshed. It is no use
: to accept something after some people have been killed. Muslims must
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: come out of there medival mentality.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Before the muslims come out of their "medival mentality" should you not
come out of a mentality borrowed from Germany in the 1920s and 1930s?
: Now I will comment the newsitem
: ===============news item=======
: >
: >LF Minister Kalimiddin behind Calcutta riots?
: >BLITZ SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: >June 6, 1996
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have deleted the rest of the newspaper article and I have not commented
on the issue of the incident in Calcutta. I shall await the report from
more neutral newspapers like The Statesman. However, for the netters who
may not be familier with Blitz, it is a tabloid that survives on
sensationalism. The only few time I have purchased Blitz was to look at
the picture in the last page (a woman typically in a swim suit).
: What Muslims should do
: ========================
: 1. Renounce communal leaders in muslims and pseudo-seculars in hindus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hindus should also reject the communal and fascist leaders.
: 2. They should see that if some hindus leaders are cheating hindus and
: are talking of muslim intersts, how will they take care of muslims (
: after all treator is traitor for every one)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And a fascist is a fascist for every one.
: 3. Try to understand hindutvaa ideology and its strength. They should
: give up all there demand objected by hindus. After all ther life is
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: more important then the islam. If they feel islam is more important
: than there life, then it is different case.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The mafia gives a choice that one cannot refuse (read the Godfather). I
shudder at the vision of India that will be there should you people have
power.
: 4. Come out of disillusionment of pseudo-seculars.
: The pseudo-seculars are guilty of misguiding the muslims and not
: letting them understand the hindus. Because of the pseudo-seculars the
: muslims feel that there is no anger in hindus; and the muslims have
: support of the hindus. That is wrong. Also pseud-secualrs are
: resposible for not letting the muslims to adapt to reality. The are
: pampering muslims and thus making them vulnerable to violence.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How have the Muslims been pampered in India? They are still one of the
poorest in India?
: 5. Another misconception of the muslims is that hindus are divided in
: the name of caste, region, language etc. Yes, if go by electoral
: politics but when it comes to the point of hindu-muslims, then all the
: hindus are hindus. Therefore even the calcutta is the communist
: bastion, but when it came between the hindus and muslims, all hindus
: were hindus and the muslims know what happened then. It may be seen
: that hindus fight in the name of language and caste, but not anymore,
: at least in case of hindu-muslim issues. As every day is passing, the
: hindutvaa message is reaching every corner of india and the soon
: muslims will find that they have no other option but to dance to the
: tune of the hindus. Which there Quran will never allow, therefore they
: will have to leave either QURAN or life. The Quran is not needed in
: india as hinduism is there to take care of spiritual needs of indian.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why stop only at spiritual need? Why not tell me that I must not speak
Bengali at home but that I must switch over to Hindi (some Hindi speakers
did wonder in my presence why I don't speak Hindi at home especially
since it is the national language), why not tell women that they must
stay at home, why not ban fish because you may find the smell offensive?
To end this I would parapharase a famous quote called Guilt of the
Bystander. It was a comment made after the Nazi holocaust.
"First they came for the Gypsies, I am not a Gypsy, I did not speak.
Then they came for the trade unionists, I am not a trade uninonist, I did
not speak.
Then they came for the communists, I am not a communist, I did not speak.
Then they came for the Jews, I am not a Jew, I did not speak.
Then they came for the Catholics, I am not a catholic, I did not speak.
Then they came for me and nobody spoke for me."
[I have quoted from memory, can anybody post the correct quote?]
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Ranjan Maitra
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: : >BLITZ SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : >June 6, 1996
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I have deleted the rest of the newspaper article and I have not commented
: on the issue of the incident in Calcutta. I shall await the report from
: more neutral newspapers like The Statesman.
Actually, Nalinaksha, the incident has been widely reported in The Statesman
(two editorials) and at least one major news analysis, with very little
difference. Assuming that you are from West Bengal, you know how unbearable
Kalimuddin Shams has become. That the Left Front is going on with his outright
communal pranks is a matter of shame. (Remember V. K. Mehta and his bodyguard
Mushtaq (or Muzaffar Ali). According to the newspaper, Mr. Shams moved to
some rural constituency because he was afraid to face the people -- but he did
not want to surrender his fiefdom, and all the income from the bootleggers,
etc. so got his son nominated to the Kabitirtha constiteuncy. The latter lost
by a wide margin to Mr. Ram Peary Ram of the Congress-(I); a miffed Shams
organized the riots. (In fact, I think the paper said that even (Hindu) places
of worship inside the police station were attacked by these rioters, but I
could have read it somewhere else, too.)
(Of course, the paper is now on a crusade against a convicted murderer called
some Mondal, who got elected from a Birbhum constituency on a CPI-M ticket,
and who should not have been allowed to contest in the first place! The Left
Front was trying to make him a Minister!)
Ranjan
: --
: Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Ranjan
--
******************************************************************************
Ranjan Maitra, Statistics, Box 354322, U. of Washington, Seattle WA 98195, USA
******************************************************************************
\|/ satyamevajayate | tamasomaajyotirgamaya \|/
-*- | -*-
/|\ TRUTH SHALL PREVAIL | FROM DARKNESS TO LIGHT /|\
******************************************************************************
Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high;
Where knowledge is free;
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic
walls;
Where words come out from the depths of truth;
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection;
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary
desert sands of dead habit;
Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever-widening thought and action -
Into that heaven of freedom, my father, let my country awake!
- Rabindranath Tagore
******************************************************************************
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <31C5A8...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> "V.Tripathi"
<vt...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> writes:
>
>I do not have much time today so I'll just write about
>a funny ritual involving a cow.
Tripathi ji: Who asked you to spent your time here ???? Didnt you
have enough time to think that the COWS AND PIGS are being discussed
in a different thread and this thread was for teaching muslims the
ground realities of the hindutva and india.
Please enlighten us your comments of muslims patriotism and hindu
fascism, if you have any ???
By the way, how is wheather in UK????
> In what is known as the Vaitarani ritual, which is
>a guaranteed recipe for moksha/salvation, you are supposed to
>wade into a river with a stupid cow and chant mantras for hours
>on end holding the tail of the cow in your hands.
> Moksha is attained over varying intervals depending
>upon your luck. The luckiest ones would be kicked hard by the
>bewildered beast and would thus immediately attain moksha. The
>unlucky ones who survive will have to wait till they die
>from other causes.
>
> To end it, I'd like to state that a large number of Hindus
>I know eat beef and they don't advertise it out of respect for
>social norms.
>
> And no sensible person regards the cow as her/his mother.
>
>V.Tripathi
Arun Chawla
BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
< a whole lot of crap which i have deleted here>
Basically going by the reasoning of Babu ji, all the problems that are
being caused in India are due to the Muslims. They are the scum and are
responsible for all that is wrong with India while the good old hindus
are a very tolerant people who just happened to be around in Ayodhya
when the mosque was brought down.
Looks like we are having our own form of the KKK in India, only thing is
that they wear saffron.
I do not even know what to say to you Babu ji. Actually I do but I
believe such expletives should not find their way into the net, so i
shall count till ten and refrain from venting my disgust at such blatant
and pathetically medieval views as yours.
Go get a life my friend.
-
Arun Chawla
------------------------------------------------------------------
Mailing Address Office Address
1110 Wharton Drive 110 Ocean Engineering Lab
Newark De 19711 University of Delaware, Newark De 19716
(302)-738-1843 (302)-831-6550
e-mail: cw...@coastal.udel.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4q4r9d$f...@agate.berkeley.edu> ha...@phnom-penh.berkeley.edu (Amber
Habib) writes:
>
>In article <4q2v17$p...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>BABU RAMABADRAN <bab...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>This article is written for muslims of indian subcontinent and the
>>arguments presented herein are based on the following facts:
>
>
>>mental makeup they will invite troubles for them. The anti-muslim
>>thinking is not limited to some strong hindutvaa supporter like me
>>only. Every hindu thinks like me to a very large extent . The only
>>difference between me and other hindus is in the method. I believe
that
>>try to explain muslims, and if they do not understand, then butcher
>>them. Some hindus differ in straight slaughter and will try to adopot
>>some moderate method. What ever the difference between me and common
>>hindus, they all agree that the muslims have crossed the limits and
>>must be given right treatment. No doubt this will involve bloodshed
but
>>can be avoided if the muslims agree it before bloodshed.
>
>When I first started reading this post I thought of writing a rebuttal
>but it soon became clear that that would be a pointless exercise. And
>then I began to wonder if this was really written by a "strong
hindutvaa
>supporter", or by someone trying to destroy their credibility! Will a
>mainstream Hindutva supporter speak up to clarify this point?
Let me make one thing very clear. Neither I am a BJP guy nor I have
any association with RSS/BJP/VHP . I am an average hindu and I write in
my personal capacity . My views have nothing to do with the views of
the BJP. If you see the BJP in contrast to me, they will look very
moderate. I do not like there moderate views and that is why sometimes
I hate BJP. However I write what I observe is happening and that is
about it. Regarding the credibility of the hindutvaa movement, every
netter is matured enough to think over it and come to conclusion of its
own. No one needs any expalnation for it. The my purpose of the
writing is to present the extreme view so
situation and prepare one for it if it turns real ( although I am
convinced that thing will improve before any thing bad). Why do not
you just read my post like comic or some sensational write-up. You will
be very comfortable then.
>
>It would be interesting to know more about Mr. Ramabadran and how he
came
>to so lose his humanity as to propose mass butchery as a means to
harmony.
>
I do not know how to answer your question becaue you must be in
senses to understand it. I do not advocate mass-butuchary; but history
shows that when the things go out of control, innocents are killed. I
will give you example of "HUNDRED YEAR" war fought between the FRANCE
and ENGLAND. Ther irony is that after 100 years no one know what they
were fighting for. Another example is the demolition of BABRI MASJID.
The BJP leader did not want to demolish it and KALYAN SINGH promised
for its protection. I read the india today published right after the
demolition and it was very clearly mentioned that the KARSEWAKS were
very enthusiastic about it. The situation was no longer in the control
of the BJP leaders. Even after the repeated requests by BJP members,
the determined KARSEWAKS demolished the BABRI MOSQUE. There for the BJP
leaders helpless. It carried on picture in which a man was shown to
saying that if karsewa is stopped this time, the BJP Leaders will get
MAR SEWA ( they will be beaten).
I have brought this event to prove that the hindutvaa movement is
not a movement of some BJP leaders. Hindutvaa is a mass movement and
evry hindu is involved in it in varying degree. There for all should
have there notions about the hindutvaa very clear. It is a mass
movement and a average hindu may not be viewing it in a way the BJP
leaders contemplate. For example you can see that I have strikingly
different view about the HINDUTVAA than the BJP has.
Well because the topic is relevent, I will append an article written by
arun gupta and forwarded to me by my friend. I posted it couple of days
back and you may have read it before also.
=====article by mr arun gupta about the BJP============
- ----------------------------------FWD post-------------------
Regarding Biju Mathew's analysis of fascism in India with reference to
Nicos Poulantzas's "Fascism and Dictatorship", I have the following
comments. I will try to be brief.
***
The three points from Poulantzas are that
1. fascism is one of the responses to the crisis of the liberal
state.
2. there is a four stage growth to fascism : start to point of no
return; no return to when fascism comes to power; the first
period; and the period of stabilization.
3. the subjection of the state to an ideology and the emergence
of a repressive machinery to further the ideology; the emergence
of a homogenizing force attempting to erase or hide class
differences ;
and the explanation of an economic and social crisis in terms of
race,
religion or communal purity.
4. There is an aside as well : "Fascism comes to power in a perfectly
constitutional manner, respecting the forms of the parliamentary
democratic state."
The BJP is "explained" in these terms and is said to be the
parliamentary
wing of an emerging fascism in India. We must fight it before it
reaches
the point of no return.
****
First, where I stand :
>From the dictionary :
ethnic : Of or pertaining to a religious, racial, national, or cultural
group.
ethnicity : The condition of belonging to a particular ethnic group.
The BJP, as far as I know, does not deny that Indians belong to
different
religious, racial and cultural groups. Where it is wrong is in its
assertion that Muslims, by and large, are imperfect Indian nationals.
It is this last assertion of the BJP that makes it a danger to India.
"National" with regard to India, and with regard to the BJP, simply
means
that there is one sovereign power within India. As a counter-example,
the move by some Muslims in Great Britain to form a "Muslim parliament"
which would have sole jurisdiction over Muslim civil law would be
termed
as "anti-national". "National" has no meaning as it does in Europe,
e.g.,
"Germanic people".
****
Now, on to Poulantzas :
The liberal state is, almost by definition, always in a "crisis".
This is because it must be ruled by a coalition -- a majority of people
must consent -- and because of its perpetual self-examination.
Consider the crisis that might lead to fascism -- what symptoms might
it
exhibit ? ( Notice that even Poulantzas is honest enough to admit that
fascism is but one form of response to the crisis. )
My contention is that such a crisis is no ordinary one -- there is an
intense manifestation of the desire to overthrow the liberal state; a
total contempt for the institutions of such a state.
The three classic fascist states were Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's
Germany,
and Franco's Spain. In each case, there were attempts at overthrowing
the
government by unconstitutional means -- Hitler's putsch in 1923,
the rebellion against the Spanish republic, the violence of Mussolini's
blackshirts, just to mention the tip of the iceberg.
We do not see that in the case of the BJP. Yes, fascists ultimately
came
to power by "constitutional" means (if you ignore the incessant
violence that
is not much mentioned in broad historical works). But the stated goal
of
the fascists before they came to power was to abolish the liberal
state.
This is hardly the case with the BJP. A lot of them went to jail in
defense of the Constitution during the Emergency. Once the fascists
came
to power, they abolished the Constitution. In a situation similar to
that
facing the recent BJP government at the Center, Mussolini imposed a
single-party, totalitarian dictatorship. Vajpayee, however, resigned.
Even the closest-to-fascist-government in India : that of Indira
Gandhi,
during the emergency, voluntarily relinquished power.
My diagnosis : we are hardly anywhere near fascism in India, if fascism
means something concrete (e.g., fascism is a state analogous to one of
the three major fascist states in history); and not merely a
progressive
smear word.
That takes care of Poulantzis's items 1, 2 and 4.
****
Regarding item 3 : yes, there is a repressive state apparatus in India;
but its emergence long pre-dates the BJP; it is almost exclusively the
creation of Indira Gandhi and the Congress.
Contrary to popular belief, Bombay/Surat was not the first time that
the
state apparatus participated or connived in communal riots -- the prime
examples are all under Congress rule, long before the BJP was born;
e.g,
Ahmedabad, 1967, for a concrete example.
If all of this indicates that India is on the road to fascism, then it
is
hardly the BJP that is at the vanguard of such forces.
****
Regarding homogenizing forces that attempt to erase class differences;
(and class in India is being interpreted in part as caste ) : if this
is a symptom of fascism, then even the outlawing of discrimination
based
on caste, which is a homogenizing force, can be construed as fascism.
Outlawing of gender discrimination is fascism. Even "hum sab
bharatvaasi
bhai-bhahin hain" in the pledge is fascism. Economic growth that puts
the majority of people into the middle-class is fascism. However,
these
are all very desirable goals.
Lastly, while the BJP does seek to come to power based on an
anti-Muslim
sentiment, it hardly seeks to explain India's ills in terms of Muslims.
The discourse I've been exposed to is more about pseudo-seculars and
consumer-merchandise-multinationals.
****
One must conclude that the progressive analysis of fascism in the
context
of India is more or less intellectually bankrupt. India doesn't
exhibit
the symptoms that preceded Franco, Hitler or Mussolini. Progressives
who
can analyze India only in European terms are trying to shoehorn the
Indian
situation into one of their pet theories.
To understand and deal with the BJP one must come to grips with the
historic
distrust of Muslims on the part of Hindus, which was exacerbated by the
Partition. In fact, in the first place, the "Hindu" identity emerged
as
a response to Islam, it was non-existent before that. Also understand
the
post-independence use of communalism by India's overtly secular rulers.
Therein lies the remedy.
****
- -arun gupta
====================end of arun guptas article=========
Well I am not a social scientist. I am averge hindu who is not as
much educated and enlightened as you people are. Plese ignore if my
language is not refined and I lack the theory , that you guys have read
in " pseudo-secularist text book"
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <31C5E68C...@coastal.udel.edu> Arun Chawla
<cw...@coastal.udel.edu> writes:
>
>BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>
>< a whole lot of crap which i have deleted here>
>
>Basically going by the reasoning of Babu ji, all the problems that are
>being caused in India are due to the Muslims. They are the scum and
are
>responsible for all that is wrong with India while the good old hindus
>are a very tolerant people who just happened to be around in Ayodhya
>when the mosque was brought down.
>
>Looks like we are having our own form of the KKK in India, only thing
is
>that they wear saffron.
>
>I do not even know what to say to you Babu ji. Actually I do but I
>believe such expletives should not find their way into the net, so i
>shall count till ten and refrain from venting my disgust at such
blatant
>and pathetically medieval views as yours.
Chawla Saheb : I do not talk theory. I say what is practical. I was
just trying to explain one thing. "WHILE IN ROME, DO AS ROMAN DO".
Going by same logic I want the muslims to understand that " while they
are in india/bharat/hindustan , they have to live as
indians/bhartiya/hindustanis want. Needless to say that hindus being
80%, if muslims do not want to live as hindus live, at the minimum they
have to conform to the hindus living. And what i meant was that if
they antagonized the hindus, how bad the situation could be. The
calcutta riots is the best example. I want to emphasize that neither
the BJP nor the hindutvaavdi was inovolved in the calcutta riots.
I hope the things are clear in your vision.
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4q2v17$p...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> bab...@ix.netcom.com(BABU
RAMABADRAN) writes:
>
Dear Netters;
I read all your responses between the lines. Most of you condemned me
for using hard words (like butchering etc ) against muslims. In the
court of the netters I was found guilty of distrbuting hate. Some even
compared me with KKK activists. Nila Bhattacharya seemed to be more
cncerned with the HINDI language than the hindu-muslim issue in this
thread and he even dismissed this report; as it was not extracted from
statesman ( which he trusts most perhaps). With all the hypocritic
secualrist I was expecting such a reply anyway. I was,however,
surprised that nobody tried ( inadvertatnly or delibratly ) to paid any
attention to a part of my whole writing. Bhattachary just touched that
part but others neglected it altogether. That issue was the leadership
of the muslims. I would be interested to know the views of muslims and
the pesudo-seculars on the matter of " MUSLIM LEADERSHIP".
Can any personallity be named as representative of the muslims
today. Traditional leaders like Imam Bukhari,Sayed Shahabuddin, Gulam
Nabi Azad, Salman Khurshid, Mufti Mohammad Sayeed etc are no longer
relevent. To me, the muslim society looks like without a leader. The
traditional leaders have lost the trust of the muslims and haave proved
ineffective in furthering the interst of the muslims. The retrogressive
leaders of the past are no longer useful nor they are in power. The
representation of the muslims in parliament is decresing. The educated
muslims have to realize this.
This vaccum at the top of the muslims society has given an
opportunity to self serving leaders like MULAYAM SINGH YADAV and
MULAYAM SINGH YADAV. As the backward leaders they are, they are still
using the same backward trick of the muslims appeasment. Although, they
are being backed by the muslim, but it did not convert into real seats.
The BJP improved its position at the cost of JD in UP and Bihar. The
BJP was able to grab 14 out of 18 reserved seats. Also what ever the
votes mulayam and laloo got was anti-bjp muslims votes , than a
positvie voted to them based on the merit of there agenda and clarity
of there political wisdom. How long will this negative voting will help
muslims ?????. Can laloo, who has been rejected in bihar be the
messiah of muslims?? Same with MULAYAM SINGH.
The problem with the muslims is that they do not trust with the
BJP. And I believe that the BJP and only BJP can provide real
leadership to the muslims. Also , the situation is so building that it
will be impossible for muslims to launch an party as muslims equivalent
of BJP. Not only such party will have very small representation, but
will never be able to get into parliament ( because it will furhter
polarize the hindu society on hindu-muslim lines). The other
possibility is that the muslims join some other party. The congress
cannot be that party because it has already been rejected by the
muslims. Another option is that the muslims join and support parties
like JD/UF. Question arises, how interseted are JD/UF in muslims
affairs. I donot see that they have anything to offer to muslims except
opposing Uniform Civil Code,370 and vande mataram. You must have read
the common minimum programme by UF. It does not say anything specific
about the muslims. No party can say so. Therefore the muslims have to
treat as indians ( not as a muslim voters ). Also the BJP has proved
that the muslims votes are not very important. ONe can be in power
without the muslim votes.
I envision the future ( after 4-5 years ) like this. UF govt may or
may not continue that long. BJP will become more and more popular as
the day passes. It is reaching beyond the traditional hindi belt ( the
pace may be slow enough for critics to oppose this fact). I do not say
that the BJP will sweep east and south india, but will definetly add
many new seat at the cost of congress. The relevence of the muslims
vote is decreasing day by day. All the parties have accepted that the
secularism has been misused in the past and must be revised to meet the
current needs. This will be last and the biggest blow to the muslim
fundementalism. By that time i expect some modern muslim leader to
comeup with liberal views. That leader will not come to challange BJP (
unlike what most of the pseudo-secularists might think) but to work
closely wiht the BJP and resolve the conflict between the muslims and
hindus. Muslims will sing Vande-Mataram; there will be unifrom civil
code in india, Deve Gowda and other secularist will be able to buy
land in KASHMIR.
But before that kind of muslim leader will come up . The muslims
will be befooled by mulayams and laloos.
====my original article for those who missed it. ============
nisankarao chandrasekhar
Dear Cry Baby RaMbadMan: You should consider your self among those
you mention in 2. Wonder as to what on earth you are doing in this
country. Do you clean latrines? Use some phenyle to clean your
filthy mouth and brain (if you have one)
BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: This article is written for muslims of indian subcontinent and the
Virendra Verma
In article <4q2v17$p...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
bab...@ix.netcom.com(BABU RAMABADRAN) wrote:
The leadership of the muslims in india has moved from traditional
>6. The hindutva force is getting firmer in india and is now cutting
>across the regional and languistic boundries . It is no more located to
>traditional cow belt.
>
You mean baffalo-belt to the south of Vindhyachal and pig-belt to the
west of Rajasthan?
I will bash anyone who uses cow-belt for north India.
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4q5f52$p...@crcnis3.unl.edu> nch...@unlgrad1.unl.edu (nisankarao
chandrasekhar) writes:
>
>Dear Cry Baby RaMbadMan: You should consider your self among those
>you mention in 2. Wonder as to what on earth you are doing in this
>country. Do you clean latrines? Use some phenyle to clean your
>filthy mouth and brain (if you have one)
>
Dear nchandra: Please tell me if you deny any of the facts
mentioned by me. I am sure you do not but just you can not tolerate
these facts. I cannot help you in that matter. You have to learn to
coexist with the truth. Truth is bitter but it is true. :-) :-) :-)
If you are really interseted in some meaningful discussion would
you plese write you comments on the lack of leadership in the muslim
society of india. I covered this topic in great length in my previous
post on same thread.
>BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: This article is written for muslims of indian subcontinent and the
>: arguments presented herein are based on the following facts:
>
>: 1. The 75% of the population of the indian populations is hindu
>: 2. About the 50% of indians are illeterate and out of rest only a
very
>: small percentage are Bachelor ( degree holder_ added later).
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Ranjan Maitra (mai...@thelma.stat.washington.edu) wrote:
: Actually, Nalinaksha, the incident has been widely reported in The Statesman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: (two editorials) and at least one major news analysis, with very little
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: difference. Assuming that you are from West Bengal, you know how unbearable
: Kalimuddin Shams has become. That the Left Front is going on with his outright
: communal pranks is a matter of shame. (Remember V. K. Mehta and his bodyguard
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Rest deleted for brevity]
Ranjan,
I subscribe to the weekly edition of The Statesman and it is late often.
Today I received the issue that contained the editorial on Manik Mondol
and Shams. The paper criticised Buddhadev Bhattacharya for not letting
Police deal with the situation in their way.
The point I am trying to make is that while the left front have constituents
like Shams who play the communal card for their own short term gain, we
must differentiate this from BJP which wants to institutionalise
communalism.
If you look at the context in this thread in which the article from Blitz
is quoted, you will see a very broad message that since even someone from
the left front started a communal riot then why blame BJP? I am
countering this message. Shams' conduct is despicable and he should be
punished to the fullest extent of law. However, this still does not
validate the Blitz's claim that Calcutta did a Surat.
Hope I have clarified my point.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Ranjan Maitra
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: Ranjan Maitra (mai...@thelma.stat.washington.edu) wrote:
: : Actually, Nalinaksha, the incident has been widely reported in The Statesman
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : (two editorials) and at least one major news analysis, with very little
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : difference. Assuming that you are from West Bengal, you know how unbearable
: : Kalimuddin Shams has become. That the Left Front is going on with his outright
: : communal pranks is a matter of shame. (Remember V. K. Mehta and his bodyguard
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: [Rest deleted for brevity]
: Ranjan,
: I subscribe to the weekly edition of The Statesman and it is late often.
: Today I received the issue that contained the editorial on Manik Mondol
: and Shams. The paper criticised Buddhadev Bhattacharya for not letting
: Police deal with the situation in their way.
: The point I am trying to make is that while the left front have constituents
: like Shams who play the communal card for their own short term gain, we
: must differentiate this from BJP which wants to institutionalise
: communalism.
First, I do not subscribe to the view, that the BJP wants to "institutionalise
communalism" any more (probably less) than any other political party. More
importantly, the likes of Kalimuddin Shams in West Bengal or Obaidullah Azmi
(the honorable man was given a JD Rajya Sabha ticket for his role in the Gonda
riots by Mulayam Singh Yadav) in UP, and the reluctance of our "secular
leaders" to bell the cat that is in my opinion, the greatest impetus for
the institutionalization of communalism. After all, this amount of blatant
pandering to these trouble-brokers who happen to be Muslim, can only set off
the *people* who are in any case the only guarantors of peace and communal
amity.
: If you look at the context in this thread in which the article from Blitz
: is quoted, you will see a very broad message that since even someone from
: the left front started a communal riot then why blame BJP?
I think the point that was being made in the Blitz report and this is also
valid is that at a time when unscrupulous and unprincipled alliances were
taking place on one perceived issue (namely the defense of secularism), how
come the much-touted record of Calcutta (indeed the Leftists are supposed to
boast the best record in the whole of India) could not be protected?
(One thing I found very curious was the near-total absence of any news on the
Calcutta incidents on The Hindu online; kind of seemed that they were learning
from their American newspaper friends fast!!)
: I am
: countering this message. Shams' conduct is despicable and he should be
: punished to the fullest extent of law.
You are day-dreaming if you think that this will ever happen. Garden Reach,
Iqbalpur, Kidderpore, and even Rajabazar will be up in flames! (Have you been
around there when India plays Pakistan?)
However, this still does not
: validate the Blitz's claim that Calcutta did a Surat.
Compared to the record of Calcutta vis-a-vis itself, it did worse.
: Hope I have clarified my point.
No.
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Ranjan Maitra (mai...@thelma.stat.washington.edu) wrote:
: First, I do not subscribe to the view, that the BJP wants to "institutionalise
: communalism" any more (probably less) than any other political party. More
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I differ with you.
: importantly, the likes of Kalimuddin Shams in West Bengal or Obaidullah Azmi
: (the honorable man was given a JD Rajya Sabha ticket for his role in the Gonda
: riots by Mulayam Singh Yadav) in UP, and the reluctance of our "secular
: leaders" to bell the cat that is in my opinion, the greatest impetus for
: the institutionalization of communalism. After all, this amount of blatant
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do agree that we should not wink at Muslim communalists while decrying
Hindu fundamentalism. The point I have tried to make is that muslim
communalism does not justify hindu communalism.
: : If you look at the context in this thread in which the article from Blitz
: : is quoted, you will see a very broad message that since even someone from
: : the left front started a communal riot then why blame BJP?
: I think the point that was being made in the Blitz report and this is also
: valid is that at a time when unscrupulous and unprincipled alliances were
: taking place on one perceived issue (namely the defense of secularism), how
: come the much-touted record of Calcutta (indeed the Leftists are supposed to
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: boast the best record in the whole of India) could not be protected?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Surely the incident was shameful and should not have happened. However, I
perceived the Blitz article and its citation by Hindu Fundamentalists
differently. It appeared to me that it was implied that because the riots
occurred in Calcutta, therefore there is no difference between BJP and
Left Parties with respect to secular principles. I differ.
Also, may I point out that the bulk of my post was about Babu
Ramabadran's hate mongering against muslims. I suggest that we discuss
the Ekbalpore riots in a separate thread.
: : I am
: : countering this message. Shams' conduct is despicable and he should be
: : punished to the fullest extent of law.
: You are day-dreaming if you think that this will ever happen. Garden Reach,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Iqbalpur, Kidderpore, and even Rajabazar will be up in flames! (Have you been
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: around there when India plays Pakistan?)
Knowing the wheeling dealing that goes on in Indian politics, it is quite
possible that Shams may never be punished. This is unfortunate and
deplorable.
About Cricket, I was never interested in that sport. However, I passed
through Rajabazar every day from 1990-1994 on way to work. Never noticed
any visible support for Pakistan (assuming some cricket matches have been
played between India and Pakistan during that time).
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: I read all your responses between the lines. Most of you condemned me
: for using hard words (like butchering etc ) against muslims. In the
: court of the netters I was found guilty of distrbuting hate. Some even
: compared me with KKK activists. Nila Bhattacharya seemed to be more
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: cncerned with the HINDI language than the hindu-muslim issue in this
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have spelt my name wrong. Also you have not responded to the points I
raised. Moreover, I alluded to Hindi imposition only in one paragraph.
You have a classic ability to pick and choose.
: thread and he even dismissed this report; as it was not extracted from
: statesman ( which he trusts most perhaps). With all the hypocritic
: secualrist I was expecting such a reply anyway. I was,however,
: surprised that nobody tried ( inadvertatnly or delibratly ) to paid any
: attention to a part of my whole writing. Bhattachary just touched that
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: part but others neglected it altogether. That issue was the leadership
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How about responding to my rejoinder? May I request you to follow the
appropriate net convention of quoting from my post when replying.
: The problem with the muslims is that they do not trust with the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: BJP. And I believe that the BJP and only BJP can provide real
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Muslims will have to be supremely naive to trust BJP. Also given your
call to butcher Muslims, your belief about the rightful leadership of
Muslims tell a lot about the policy of that rightful leader.
: ====my original article for those who missed it. ============
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How about responding to my rejoinder to your original article?
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
M.Ranganathan
In article <4q5b21$j...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
BABU RAMABADRAN <bab...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Well I am not a social scientist. I am averge hindu who is not as
>much educated and enlightened as you people are. Plese ignore if my
>language is not refined and I lack the theory , that you guys have read
>in " pseudo-secularist text book"
>
>
>
No you are not an "average Hindu". In fact you don't know the meaning of the
word. If you had been famous, you would be an embarrassment to "average Hindus".
However, given your point of view, I doubt that there is any danger of
that. Regarding your suggestion of ignoring you, I think it is an excellent
one and I will take it- for your language is indeed unrefined and you lack
both theory and practicality. First lets start with your language. You
should talk about "liquidating" non Hindu. It is much more refined than
"kill". Has a sort of technical "change of state" feel to it. One day
you are solid and the next day liquid. Very technical. You see - an idea
is only as popular as its presentation. You need to refine your presentation
skill.
Now on to practical details...
Lets say you and me got together and started to exterminate Non Hindu.
Wait a minute here. Have you thought of how many people that would be -
200 million ! Where would you find the fuel to reduce their remains to
ashes? OK we could use their bone ash in various by products and we could
use their skins to make lamp shades and whatnot. ( I hear some non Hindu
skins make excellent wallets.) However, what will you do with the flesh ?
Face it - you will need to buy fuel. Thats foreign exchange down the drain.
OK lets say you just let them rot. Now we would have a great outbreak of
cholera and us Hindus of Akhand Bharat would die of it. I hope you realize
the impracticality of you plan. I would love to help you but you see
being a rather practical fellow, I am afraid you are going to have to do
it yourself. So I wish you luck and hope you will send me regular progress
reports.
With kind regards and all best wishes.
Very truly (up) yours,
M.Ranganathan.
Ranjan Maitra
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: Ranjan Maitra (mai...@thelma.stat.washington.edu) wrote:
: : First, I do not subscribe to the view, that the BJP wants to "institutionalise
: : communalism" any more (probably less) than any other political party. More
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I differ with you.
Your choice and right.
: : riots by Mulayam Singh Yadav) in UP, and the reluctance of our "secular
: : leaders" to bell the cat that is in my opinion, the greatest impetus for
: : the institutionalization of communalism. After all, this amount of blatant
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I do agree that we should not wink at Muslim communalists while decrying
: Hindu fundamentalism. The point I have tried to make is that muslim
: communalism does not justify hindu communalism.
No, it doesn't. But if we scream at one of them, and pretend that the other is
secularism, it is the latter that takes a back-seat, in the eyes of the people.
: : I think the point that was being made in the Blitz report and this is also
: : valid is that at a time when unscrupulous and unprincipled alliances were
: : taking place on one perceived issue (namely the defense of secularism), how
: : come the much-touted record of Calcutta (indeed the Leftists are supposed to
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : boast the best record in the whole of India) could not be protected?
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Surely the incident was shameful and should not have happened. However, I
: perceived the Blitz article and its citation by Hindu Fundamentalists
: differently.
The Blitz, by the way, is run by Russi Karanjia, who is a Parsi, and more
importantly, was very close to Rajiv Gandhi. Anyway, I doubt that they had
any such intention other than to put forth the truth -- after all, The
Statesman reports are much more scathing in this regard!
It appeared to me that it was implied that because the riots
: occurred in Calcutta, therefore there is no difference between BJP and
: Left Parties with respect to secular principles. I differ.
Your choice again. For years, the Left was in the forefront of the move to have
an uniform civil code. Why the sudden change now? (In fact, the lawyer
representing Shah Bano was one Daniel Latifi (I hope I remember this name
correctly) and he was a card-holding member of the CPI-(M). And what exactly is
their current position on the Muslim Womens' (Protection of Rights Against
Divorce) Act, 1986, given that they had opposed it with such vigour (Mr.
Somnath Chatterjee in Parliament : It is a lawless law) Will they please
clarify? What is their latest position on the Muslim League (which by the way,
unlike the BJP bars non-Muslims from membership)? (I know that they are no
longer in alliance in Kerala since 1987, but what about the "indirect
alliances" as in TN or in AP?) What is their position on Mr. Mulayam Singh
Yadav's massacre of Hindu pilgrims at Ayodhya on November 2, 1990, just because
his administration had failed in its earlier boast to seal off the disputed
structure two days ago? (This is documented in among other reports, Amnesty
International's report.) It is my view that these incidents brought the BJP
into power in UP. (To buttress my argument, consider that in 1989, the winner
of the Faizabad parliamentary constituency was a CPI member by the name of some
Mishra or something like that, I forget his exact name -- since 1991, it has
been held by Mr. Vinay Katiyar of no, not even the BJP, but the more rabid
Bajrang Dal!)
[The twin cities of Faizabad and Ayodhya fall in the Faizabad constituency, in
case you were wondering why I picked upon this one constituency out of 85.]
And what about the rape of women in Muzzafarnagar, or the attack on Allahabad
High Court? I doubt you know the answer to any of these, but if you did, I am
dying to hear them!
: Also, may I point out that the bulk of my post was about Babu
: Ramabadran's hate mongering against muslims. I suggest that we discuss
: the Ekbalpore riots in a separate thread.
Agreed, though the hate-mongering can only be fought by an honest appraisal.
: : You are day-dreaming if you think that this will ever happen. Garden Reach,
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : Iqbalpur, Kidderpore, and even Rajabazar will be up in flames! (Have you been
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : around there when India plays Pakistan?)
: Knowing the wheeling dealing that goes on in Indian politics, it is quite
: possible that Shams may never be punished. This is unfortunate and
: deplorable.
Yeah, but his "secular credentials" will ensure his right to loot the
exchequer as he did so very well in his last stint with potatoes and cold
storage!
: About Cricket, I was never interested in that sport. However, I passed
: through Rajabazar every day from 1990-1994 on way to work. Never noticed
: any visible support for Pakistan (assuming some cricket matches have been
: played between India and Pakistan during that time).
Between 1987-92, there was no visible support, mostly trouble! This happened
when India lost (mostly) or won. Most newspapers do not report all this in the
public interest though when it gets serious, they do.
BABU RAMABADRAN
I posted this befor in thread MUSLIMS LEARN. This was a major point
that I wanted to discuss and wanted to know of more and more muslims.
But nobody responded to it. Lack of credible leader is the biggest
problem of the indian muslims. Therefore I believe that my this post
should invoke serious discussion. I have noticed that flames attract
lots of response but the real issues are burried in the remains of the
WORD WAR. I hope some serious muslim thinkers to participate in this
issue. Cow/PIGS/BABRI etc are no doubt very sensational subjects but
they are not going to solve any problem. Therefor I request to all who
read my flames to read this also and give there comments.
MUSLIMS SOCIETY IS LEADERLESS
=============================
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4q770b$g...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha
Bhattacharyya) writes:
>
>BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: I read all your responses between the lines. Most of you condemned
me
>: for using hard words (like butchering etc ) against muslims. In the
>: court of the netters I was found guilty of distrbuting hate. Some
even
>: compared me with KKK activists. Nila Bhattacharya seemed to be more
>: cncerned with the HINDI language than the hindu-muslim issue in
this
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>You have spelt my name wrong. Also you have not responded to the
points I
Nalinaksha : Sorry for not writing your name completly. I tried to
respond all the points but if still you feel that I have missed
something, please do write it and I will like to answer it. It will be
for my good to present my view.
>raised. Moreover, I alluded to Hindi imposition only in one paragraph.
Bhattachary just touched that
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>: part but others neglected it altogether. That issue was the
leadership
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>How about responding to my rejoinder? May I request you to follow the
>appropriate net convention of quoting from my post when replying.
>
Please put that question again and I will sure write my answer to it.
>: ====my original article for those who missed it. ============
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>How about responding to my rejoinder to your original article?
>
>
See you have violeted the custom open discussion. YOu deleted the
original topic and any newcomer in this thread will not know what is
the original premise.
I will answer your question. I have already promised it.
Tariq Siddiqui
We Muslims will live in India as the Hindus do provided all the hindus in the
US live as the Americans do.
That of course means eating meat and yes, BEEF. Giving up affiliatians to
all Indian organisation like OFBJP etc.
Stop building temples and start worshipping in temples
and oh yes! the hardest one of all - Stop claiming dowry!!
-Tariq
vi...@vossnet.co.uk
BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>
> This article is written for muslims of indian subcontinent and the
> arguments presented herein are based on the following facts:
>
> 1. The 75% of the population of the indian populations is hindu
>
This is wrong. About 85% is Hindu.
2. About the 50% of indians are illeterate and out of rest only a very
> small percentage are Bachelor.
>
> 3. The illeterates and the lesser educated are not corrupted by the
> pseudo-secularist education and are therefor true hindus ( unlike the
> educated pseudo-secular indians encountered on net)
> It is silly to glorify illiteracy
>
>
> The hatred towards the muslims among hindus dates back to the pre
> independence era when the congress leaders promised the independence
> but hindus did not know that the independence will come with the
> division of the country. NO real patrioit is happy with the freedom
> which divided the country. Country feels cheated by NEHRU/GANDHI and
> there blunders. More than the division of the country, the numerous
> crimes committed on the hindus and the continuence of the same trend is
> what irks the hindu most.
What is the point in cyring over spoilt milk especially when it happened 50 years ago.
Rather we should look towards the future and provide a good future for all citizens of
India. This hankering over pre-47 India is very unrealistic and politically
counter-productive and it is a diversion and self-indulgence whcih we can safely do
without. After all, Pakistan and Bangladesh are solid political realities and be good
neighbours.
It was thought that after the division of the
> india, the muslims will live like good indians,
Muslims are good Indians as any other Indian
>
>
>
> The history repeats itself and we find ourselves in the same
> situation in which our forefathers lived.
History repeats itself, first time as tragedy and second time as farce in the shape of
articles like 'Muslims Learn'
.
> Every hindu thinks like me to a very large extent .
Not true
> The only> difference between me and other hindus is in the method. I believe that> try to explain muslims, and if they do not understand, then butcher> them. Some hindus
differ in straight slaughter and will try to adopot> some moderate method.
This kind of crude language is just unbecoming of Indians.
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <Pine.NXT.3.91.960619123409.3383A-100000@violet> Tariq Siddiqui
<txs8...@tree.egr.uh.edu> writes:
>> Chawla Saheb : I do not talk theory. I say what is practical. I
was
>> just trying to explain one thing. "WHILE IN ROME, DO AS ROMAN DO".
>> Going by same logic I want the muslims to understand that " while
they
>> are in india/bharat/hindustan , they have to live as
>> indians/bhartiya/hindustanis want. Needless to say that hindus being
>> 80%, if muslims do not want to live as hindus live, at the minimum
they
>> have to conform to the hindus living. And what i meant was that if
>> they antagonized the hindus, how bad the situation could be. The
>> calcutta riots is the best example. I want to emphasize that
neither
>> the BJP nor the hindutvaavdi was inovolved in the calcutta riots.
>We Muslims will live in India as the Hindus do provided all the hindus
in the
>US live as the Americans do.
>
>That of course means eating meat and yes, BEEF. Giving up affiliatians
to
>all Indian organisation like OFBJP etc.
>Stop building temples and start worshipping in temples
>and oh yes! the hardest one of all - Stop claiming dowry!!
Tariq Siddiqui Janab:
1. Have seen any hindus society breaking the customs and law of united
states?
2. Have you seen hindus breaking churches in Unites States???
3. Have you seen hindus killing and raping Christina men and women in
United States.
4. Have you seen hindus not complying wiht authorities because they
want there procession to go through particular route ?????
5. Have you seen any hindu bombing World Trade Center ??
5. Have you ever seen hindu society changing Constitution of United
States to appease hindu pandits like the muslims did in Shah Banos
Case.
7. Have you seen hindus asking a hindu state out of United States???
There are numerous questions that you can ask to yourself. Anyway
you have come one step closer to peace by accepting that the muslims
will try to coexist with the hindus.( although you put some flimsy
condition ))
Have fun:
N HAZARIKA
In article <4q3dr8$q...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) writes:
> To end this I would parapharase a famous quote called Guilt of the
> Bystander. It was a comment made after the Nazi holocaust.
>
> "First they came for the Gypsies, I am not a Gypsy, I did not speak.
> Then they came for the trade unionists, I am not a trade uninonist, I did
> not speak.
> Then they came for the communists, I am not a communist, I did not speak.
> Then they came for the Jews, I am not a Jew, I did not speak.
> Then they came for the Catholics, I am not a catholic, I did not speak.
> Then they came for me and nobody spoke for me."
>
> [I have quoted from memory, can anybody post the correct quote?]
>
As an aside, one could quote the Zen koan:
If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, does it make a
sound? :-)
Cheers,
--
Neep Hazarika Department of Computer Science and Applied Mathematics
Aston University, Aston Triangle, Birmingham B4 7ET, U.K.
Phone: +44-121-359-3611 Ext. 4652 (work) +44-121-554-8247 (home)
Fax: +44-121-333-6215 e-mail: n.haz...@aston.ac.uk or haza...@aston.ac.uk
ccic
bab...@ix.netcom.com(BABU RAMABADRAN) wrote:
It seem that you Mr. Babu have nothing else to do in your life except
put inflamatory remarks and comments about Islam. Please do us a favor
and get a job some where. Maybe by keeping your self busy, you will
start focusing on yourself and your religion.
It is shameful the people like you having good education still lives
in paranoia.
To answer to your posting, Muslims do not need leaders. They
themselves are leaders. Now get off this band wagon of hate.
Sunit Gala
Ranjan Maitra (mai...@thelma.stat.washington.edu) wrote:
> First, I do not subscribe to the view, that the BJP wants to
> "institutionalise
> communalism" any more (probably less) than any other political party. More
> importantly, the likes of Kalimuddin Shams in West Bengal or Obaidullah Azmi
> (the honorable man was given a JD Rajya Sabha ticket for his role in the Gonda
> riots by Mulayam Singh Yadav) in UP, and the reluctance of our "secular
> leaders" to bell the cat that is in my opinion, the greatest impetus for
> the institutionalization of communalism. After all, this amount of blatant
> pandering to these trouble-brokers who happen to be Muslim, can only set off
> the *people* who are in any case the only guarantors of peace and communal
> amity.
But of course the BJP wish to institutionalize their belief in how an
Indian should live -- it's in their bloody manifesto. Or do you deny
this fact? The BJP keep farting about how the Mughals raped us Hindus,
and now it's pay back time. Most of us paid no attention to this nonsense
in 89-90, and now it's come to haunt us. Langots are quick to point out
that the JD and Congress keep playing the caste card, and have in fact,
institionalized corrections of past abuse of SC/ST/BC/... by Brahmins
by means of reservations. The analogy does not hold. Lower castes are
still abused, and in many ways, still disenfranchised in India. The
last Mughal was Bahadur Shah Zafar. (BTW, I do not believe that
reservations are the answer, and no, I do not know what the "correct"
solution is. While justice must be done, the means are important.)
> I think the point that was being made in the Blitz report and this is also
> valid is that at a time when unscrupulous and unprincipled alliances were
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> taking place on one perceived issue (namely the defense of secularism), how
As opposed to the power grab made by the BJP in which ABV was PM for all
of two weeks! And how do you explain BJP being in bed with Bal Thakre's
goons in Bombay? In fact, why is Bal Thakre not behind bars? The appeasement
you speak of above is universal -- even Indira Gandhi (whom I view
as ultimately responsible for the criminalization of Indian politics over
a decade) tolerated criminals when it suited her purpose -- caste and
religion have no bearing on who is appeased, it's simply a matter of
vote banks. And besides, if secularism is unprincipled, pray tell us,
what is principled? Methodical destruction of mosques? Remember before
shooting off that Mathura and Kashi are on the principled BJP's manifesto.
Once again, this is not a defense of Congress or United Farce. I simply
wish to point out that the BJP are no better than the other parties in
contemporary Indian politics, their tactics equally dirty.
> Ranjan
Cheers,
Sunit.
--
_______________________________________________________________________
Sunit Gala e-mail: su...@netcom.com
San Francisco v-mail: 415-776-1297
Ranjan Maitra
: > First, I do not subscribe to the view, that the BJP wants to
: > "institutionalise
: > communalism" any more (probably less) than any other political party. More
: > importantly, the likes of Kalimuddin Shams in West Bengal or Obaidullah Azmi
: > (the honorable man was given a JD Rajya Sabha ticket for his role in the Gonda
: > riots by Mulayam Singh Yadav) in UP, and the reluctance of our "secular
: > leaders" to bell the cat that is in my opinion, the greatest impetus for
: > the institutionalization of communalism. After all, this amount of blatant
: > pandering to these trouble-brokers who happen to be Muslim, can only set off
: > the *people* who are in any case the only guarantors of peace and communal
: > amity.
: But of course the BJP wish to institutionalize their belief in how an
: Indian should live -- it's in their bloody manifesto. Or do you deny
: this fact? The BJP keep farting about how the Mughals raped us Hindus,
: and now it's pay back time. Most of us paid no attention to this nonsense
: in 89-90, and now it's come to haunt us. Langots are quick to point out
: that the JD and Congress keep playing the caste card, and have in fact,
: institionalized corrections of past abuse of SC/ST/BC/... by Brahmins
: by means of reservations. The analogy does not hold. Lower castes are
: still abused, and in many ways, still disenfranchised in India. The
: last Mughal was Bahadur Shah Zafar. (BTW, I do not believe that
: reservations are the answer, and no, I do not know what the "correct"
: solution is. While justice must be done, the means are important.)
I do not quite see how these contradict my point, assuming all your allegations
are correct. I have cast only fleeting glances at the various manifestos and
I didn't see what you point out in their manifesto. Their are lots that I
disagree within that, too; however I do not believe that they stand apart in
"institutionalizing communalism". Could you please address the points I raised?
Assuming you are aware of the antics of Kalimuddin Shams, or for that matter,
Obaidullah Azmi!
: > I think the point that was being made in the Blitz report and this is also
: > valid is that at a time when unscrupulous and unprincipled alliances were
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > taking place on one perceived issue (namely the defense of secularism), how
: As opposed to the power grab made by the BJP in which ABV was PM for all
: of two weeks!
It is not clear that this was unscrupulous and/or unprincipled. As I see it,
he was asked whether he would be able and willing to form a government -- he
thought that his intentions and programme would be enough to bring in other
like-minded individuals and parties; he was wrong. You may perhaps be able to
deny that the alliance had a limited plurality, something that the others did
not; my democratic inclinations preclude me from doing so. Its a matter of
differing views!
And how do you explain BJP being in bed with Bal Thakre's
: goons in Bombay?
As you explain the Congress, Left Front and the United Front being in alliance
(I guess that is what you meant) with the Muslim League (to be a member of
which, by the way, you have to be some sort of a Muslim; the Shiv Sena does
have one Muslim MLA)! It is all politics!
: In fact, why is Bal Thakre not behind bars?
I am not aware of any court having convicted him; I personally have no
fascination for the guy!
: The appeasement
: you speak of above is universal -- even Indira Gandhi (whom I view
: as ultimately responsible for the criminalization of Indian politics over
: a decade) tolerated criminals when it suited her purpose -- caste and
: religion have no bearing on who is appeased, it's simply a matter of
: vote banks.
Why then the above rant? The appeasement I speak of is unfortunate and will
damage the polity in the long run -- I have reasons to be concerned!
I agree with your comment on Indira Gandhi.
: And besides, if secularism is unprincipled, pray tell us,
: what is principled?
I am afraid that I have never made the statement you attribute me to have made.
You are welcome to provide evidence to the contrary. I'd be happy to clarify
in case my submission was misinterpreted.
: Methodical destruction of mosques? Remember before
: shooting off that Mathura and Kashi are on the principled BJP's manifesto.
I am not aware that Kashi and Mathura are on the BJP's manifesto; in fact, the
versions I have seen summarized did not highlight these. I regret my consequent
inability to comment.
: Once again, this is not a defense of Congress or United Farce. I simply
: wish to point out that the BJP are no better than the other parties in
: contemporary Indian politics, their tactics equally dirty.
A point that I generally agree with, and I thought that was clear in all my
posts on this thread. Why then the outburst?
: > Ranjan
: Cheers,
: Sunit.
: --
: _______________________________________________________________________
: Sunit Gala e-mail: su...@netcom.com
: San Francisco v-mail: 415-776-1297
--
vb_...@netzone.com
bab...@ix.netcom.com(BABU RAMABADRAN) wrote:
>I posted this befor in thread MUSLIMS LEARN. This was a major point
>that I wanted to discuss and wanted to know of more and more muslims.
>But nobody responded to it. Lack of credible leader is the biggest
>problem of the indian muslims. Therefore I believe that my this post
>should invoke serious discussion. I have noticed that flames attract
>lots of response but the real issues are burried in the remains of the
>WORD WAR. I hope some serious muslim thinkers to participate in this
>issue. Cow/PIGS/BABRI etc are no doubt very sensational subjects but
>they are not going to solve any problem. Therefor I request to all who
>read my flames to read this also and give there comments.
>MUSLIMS SOCIETY IS LEADERLESS
>=============================
You are no different than KK or KKK. Your ignorance and lack of
sensitivity towards your fellow humans and citizens are reflected
in your RACIST rhetoric.
I suggest you read Holy Koran, so that you understand about
yourself before you go on dishing out more crap.
Islam is about humans and the almighty ONE. You
probably should read Mahabharatha first, which may bring
some sense of humanity.
BABU or BYE BYE
what is the difference
JUST GO AWAY
N. Tiwari
: > First, I do not subscribe to the view, that the BJP wants to
: > "institutionalise
: > communalism" any more (probably less) than any other political party. More
: > importantly, the likes of Kalimuddin Shams in West Bengal or Obaidullah Azmi
: > (the honorable man was given a JD Rajya Sabha ticket for his role in the Gonda
: > riots by Mulayam Singh Yadav) in UP, and the reluctance of our "secular
: > leaders" to bell the cat that is in my opinion, the greatest impetus for
: > the institutionalization of communalism. After all, this amount of blatant
: > pandering to these trouble-brokers who happen to be Muslim, can only set off
: > the *people* who are in any case the only guarantors of peace and communal
: > amity.
: But of course the BJP wish to institutionalize their belief in how an
: Indian should live -- it's in their bloody manifesto. Or do you deny
: this fact? The BJP keep farting about how the Mughals raped us Hindus,
: and now it's pay back time. Most of us paid no attention to this nonsense
: in 89-90, and now it's come to haunt us. Langots are quick to point out
: that the JD and Congress keep playing the caste card, and have in fact,
: institionalized corrections of past abuse of SC/ST/BC/... by Brahmins
: by means of reservations. The analogy does not hold. Lower castes are
: still abused, and in many ways, still disenfranchised in India. The
: last Mughal was Bahadur Shah Zafar. (BTW, I do not believe that
: reservations are the answer, and no, I do not know what the "correct"
: solution is. While justice must be done, the means are important.)
It is interesting to see Muslims move from the argument that 'we
need more than what we actually are entitled for' to a position that
'we need more since we are weak'. In the pre-partition days, the
Islamic intelligensia by and large, used to seek more representation
in all spheres (including seats in legislature). The reason was:
That we have been historically important. It was for this reason,
that they got more than there fair share of seats in United Provinces
as a consequence of Lucknow Pact (I think in 1920's). The idea of
Muslim superiority (cultural, political and historical) was repeatedly
offered by these folks to extract more than there due share.
And today, purely for reasons of convenience and lust, the intelligensia
has started to label the entire Muslim community as 'low caste'. In
the pre-1947 days, Muslims were ahead of Hindus in socio-economic terms
This was due to the privileges they got from Brits, as well as from
Mughals. They lost this edge because of themselves. This transition
from a more affluent state to relative poverty, was due to intense
'tribalism' of Indian Muslims, which led them to shun modern education
and science. This behavior has been quite frequently acknowledged by
Muslim historians themselves.
So, to argue that Muslims lie in the same category as Shudras, is
a reflection of ignorance to say the least. While the latter were
historically disadvantaged, the former wasted away all they had
and led themselves to lower economic status.
: what is principled? Methodical destruction of mosques? Remember before
: shooting off that Mathura and Kashi are on the principled BJP's manifesto.
****************************************************
So what. What is the problem here. SOmnath was on the agenda of
Gandhi, Patel, and Rajendra Prasad. Taking back your own thing
is not something to be ashamed of. By the same logic, why should
the GOI advocate for an Indian-Kashmir policy.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
=====================================================
750 Tall Oaks Drive 118 Patton Hall
Apt. # 3600 I Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA 24060. Blacksburg, VA 24061.
(540)-951-3979 (540)-231-4611
=====================================================
dchat...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
In article <4q7e5c$i...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, bha...@unixg.ubc.ca
(Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) writes:
> Ranjan Maitra (mai...@thelma.stat.washington.edu) wrote:
>......[deleted]......<
> Hindu fundamentalism. The point I have tried to make is that muslim
In an ideal society, where Hindus simply practice Ahimsa, and are almost
" vegetarian [*] ", one may fantasize that Hindus shall turn their other
cheek towards Moslem communalism. (Incidentally historians like Will Durant
and Sir Jadunath Sircar have shown that such laid-back attitudes of Hindus,
or too much detachment from reality, led to the ultimate demise of Hindu
empire(s).)
Unfortunately, such idyllic (or ideal) societies/ cultures exist in only
fairy tales, and I was under the impression that we all were trying to
come to grips with reality. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Also, your statements (see above) are basically negationist. By accepting
the possibility of communal disharmony, probablly incited by Moslems, you
are basically negating any justification of Hindu " retaliation ". To me
this is basically closed-minded liberalism, since you are denying the fact
Hindus should defend themselves against Moslem communalism, even if the
latter may have instigated such in the first place.
>...../*CHOMP*/......<
> About Cricket, I was never interested in that sport. However, I passed
> through Rajabazar every day from 1990-1994 on way to work. Never noticed
> any visible support for Pakistan (assuming some cricket matches have been
> played between India and Pakistan during that time).
Maybe you were dreaming of idyllic situations and fanciful prose, as is
very typical of Bengalis. I have witnessed almost riots not only
during India-Pakistan cricket matches, but even on situations involving the
soccer matches between East Bengal vs. Mohammedan Sporting or Mohun Bagan
vs. Mohammedan Sporting, near Taltala - Suren Bannerjee Road. I had
many times avoided taking private bus # 39 simply to play safe.
> --
> Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
- deb chatterjee
(a good samaritan)
[*] implied metaphorically and with no insulting innuendos towards any
class of humans.
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
dchat...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
: In an ideal society, where Hindus simply practice Ahimsa, and are almost
: " vegetarian [*] ", one may fantasize that Hindus shall turn their other
: cheek towards Moslem communalism. (Incidentally historians like Will Durant
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nobody is asking to turn the other cheek. All I am saying is that
Hindu communalism is not the answer to Muslim communalism. Also Hindu
communalism can be every bit as fascist as Muslim communalism.
: and Sir Jadunath Sircar have shown that such laid-back attitudes of Hindus,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regarding Sir Jadunath Sircar and his version of History, I would advise
you to read " Bengal Divided" by Joya Chatterjee. She has shown how
Sircar's interpretation was communal in character. I have not read Will
Durant.
: or too much detachment from reality, led to the ultimate demise of Hindu
: empire(s).)
: Unfortunately, such idyllic (or ideal) societies/ cultures exist in only
: fairy tales, and I was under the impression that we all were trying to
: come to grips with reality. Please correct me if I am wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't understand you here. Certainly it is wrong that SOME muslims
should riot if their procession is not allowed to go into an unapproved
route. I condemn it. However, this does not justify the strident postures
of Hindu communalism (suitably represented by Babu Ramabadran). Neither
does it justify forgetting the fact that the riots are essentially
triggered by vested interests and innocent people perish. Would you have
me believe that all the people who died in the riots were the rioters
themselves?
: Also, your statements (see above) are basically negationist. By accepting
: the possibility of communal disharmony, probablly incited by Moslems, you
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The slip show. The communal disharmony was incited by SOME muslims, not
all muslims. How would you feel if a Dalit demand that
recrimination be meted out to you and me (persons born into Brahmin
Caste) because of some torture an upper caste man committed on Dalits.
: are basically negating any justification of Hindu " retaliation ". To me
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: this is basically closed-minded liberalism, since you are denying the fact
: Hindus should defend themselves against Moslem communalism, even if the
: latter may have instigated such in the first place.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The justification is as valid as the Wolf's argument in Aesop's fable
that he (the Wolf) is entitled to eat the lamb because the lamb's father
had dirtied the wate the Wolf drank.
: Maybe you were dreaming of idyllic situations and fanciful prose, as is
: very typical of Bengalis. I have witnessed almost riots not only
: during India-Pakistan cricket matches, but even on situations involving the
: soccer matches between East Bengal vs. Mohammedan Sporting or Mohun Bagan
: vs. Mohammedan Sporting, near Taltala - Suren Bannerjee Road. I had
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: many times avoided taking private bus # 39 simply to play safe.
Of course, the famous East Bengal-Mohun Bagan rivalries were always
peaceful! I do condemn violence but I also condemn attempts to tar the
whole of Muslims with the same brush.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4qf9jb$u...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha
Bhattacharyya) writes:
>~
>I don't understand you here. Certainly it is wrong that SOME muslims
>should riot if their procession is not allowed to go into an
unapproved
>route. I condemn it. However, this does not justify the strident
postures
>of Hindu communalism (suitably represented by Babu Ramabadran).
Neither
>does it justify forgetting the fact that the riots are essentially
>triggered by vested interests and innocent people perish. Would you
have
>me believe that all the people who died in the riots were the rioters
>themselves?
I caught you Nalinaksh at the wakest point here. Yes it is the
commen and innocent muslims that should suffer in the riots. You will
ask why and that is what I am going to explain here.
** Who gives vote to the communal muslim leaders? Answer is so- called
innocent muslims.
** who promises safety for the muslims???? Communal Muslim leaders.
** Who started rioting ?? The so called vanguards of the innocent
muslims.
** Why didnot muslim vote for Honest Hindu leader ?? Becaue he wanted
a communal muslims leaders.
** Why muslims do not choose non-cummunal muslim leaders ?? Becaue such
leaders do not appeal to the communal (muslim minds ) of muslims.
So muslims voted for communal leaders and they are suffering for that.
AS YOU SOW , SO YOU REAP.
Thus nothing wrong in what happened here. The muslims voted a leader
who was interested in the power rather than the development of the
muslims. There for the muslims will now learn who is real leader and
who is power monger. This justify the title of thread.
Plese think practically rather than going into theoritical arguments
becaue theoritcal discussion bring theoritical conclusions only.
Problem still remains unsolved.
>
>: Also, your statements (see above) are basically negationist. By
accepting
>: the possibility of communal disharmony, probablly incited by
Moslems, you
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~
>The slip show. The communal disharmony was incited by SOME muslims,
not
>all muslims.
All the muslims are responsible for giving power to communal muslim
leaders and therefore they deserved to be treated as communal. No
muslim ( or anyother) leader can do anything without support of its
followers. The support of the muslims to communal leaders shows that
the average muslim is equally communal. Therefore all most all the
muslims deserve blame for the communal riot in calcutta.
I hope Nalinaksha that your doubts about the involvement of the
whole muslims will be clear. I whould rather say that QURAN is also
responsible for it as it is the fundamental source of all the ill
teaching that the muslims should not obey anyone except the ALLAH. How
can you except the muslims to listen to ADMINISTRATION when there minds
are already corrupted by the QURAN.
The first step to tackle the menace of ISLAMIC RIOTS IS TO BAN QURAN
IN INDIA or remove the pages covering the JEHAD.
Soumitra Bose
What a stupid argument . I wish I had a god to whom, I could ask with
what materials are the brains of BJP-wallahs are made, or He/She might
say well they had none at all...
Who votes for the communal hindu leaders , well the innocent hindu
voters of Mumbai , so they are liable to be killed ,,,,,great ,
wonderful...
>
> I caught you Nalinaksh at the wakest point here. Yes it is the
>commen and innocent muslims that should suffer in the riots. You will
>ask why and that is what I am going to explain here.
>
>** Who gives vote to the communal muslim leaders? Answer is so-
called
>innocent muslims.
>
>** who promises safety for the muslims???? Communal Muslim leaders.
>** Who started rioting ?? The so called vanguards of the innocent
>muslims.
Who starts the rioting in other parts in India? against the muslims so
they need be killed too....
>** Why didnot muslim vote for Honest Hindu leader ?? Becaue he wanted
>a communal muslims leaders.
>
Where did such thing happen? Where is a honest hindu leader there in
that area, you mean a BJP-non-identity?
>** Why muslims do not choose non-cummunal muslim leaders ?? Becaue
such
>leaders do not appeal to the communal (muslim minds ) of muslims.
>
Throughout Bengal the muslims vote for Hindu leaders too when they fit
him right.BJP poised a Muslim puppet candidate in Satgachia against
Jyoti Basu .BJP thought they would get the muslim votes , The muslims
en-masse voted for Jyoti Basu.It was just one of the extreme
examples...
>So muslims voted for communal leaders and they are suffering for that.
>AS YOU SOW , SO YOU REAP.
>
> Thus nothing wrong in what happened here. The muslims voted a
leader
>who was interested in the power rather than the development of the
>muslims. There for the muslims will now learn who is real leader and
>who is power monger. This justify the title of thread.
>
> Plese think practically rather than going into theoritical
arguments
>becaue theoritcal discussion bring theoritical conclusions only.
>Problem still remains unsolved.
>
>>
>>: Also, your statements (see above) are basically negationist. By
>accepting
>>: the possibility of communal disharmony, probablly incited by
>Moslems, you
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>~~~~~
>>The slip show. The communal disharmony was incited by SOME muslims,
>not
>>all muslims.
>
> All the muslims are responsible for giving power to communal
muslim
>leaders and therefore they deserved to be treated as communal. No
>muslim ( or anyother) leader can do anything without support of its
>followers. The support of the muslims to communal leaders shows that
>the average muslim is equally communal. Therefore all most all the
>muslims deserve blame for the communal riot in calcutta.
On the same token all the hindus are resposible for all the rapes of
Kashmiris and Bombay muslim women .Well, that is exactly why bengalees
wanted to dis-associate with BJP even when they are so-irked by the
social fascists like CPM and the Goodas like Congress. I guess to us
now Social-fascists are better than the religious fascists who
distinguish people through the mark in the genitalia.
>
> I hope Nalinaksha that your doubts about the involvement of the
>whole muslims will be clear. I whould rather say that QURAN is also
>responsible for it as it is the fundamental source of all the ill
>teaching that the muslims should not obey anyone except the ALLAH. How
>can you except the muslims to listen to ADMINISTRATION when there
minds
>are already corrupted by the QURAN.
> The first step to tackle the menace of ISLAMIC RIOTS IS TO BAN
QURAN
>IN INDIA or remove the pages covering the JEHAD.
>
This part is beyond any commentable effort ,as it comes from someone
who does not know how to read a religious scripture.....
>
>
>
N. Tiwari
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: dchat...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
: : In an ideal society, where Hindus simply practice Ahimsa, and are almost
: : " vegetarian [*] ", one may fantasize that Hindus shall turn their other
: : cheek towards Moslem communalism. (Incidentally historians like Will Durant
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Nobody is asking to turn the other cheek. All I am saying is that
: Hindu communalism is not the answer to Muslim communalism. Also Hindu
: communalism can be every bit as fascist as Muslim communalism.
: : and Sir Jadunath Sircar have shown that such laid-back attitudes of Hindus,
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Regarding Sir Jadunath Sircar and his version of History, I would advise
: you to read " Bengal Divided" by Joya Chatterjee. She has shown how
: Sircar's interpretation was communal in character. I have not read Will
: Durant.
: : or too much detachment from reality, led to the ultimate demise of Hindu
: : empire(s).)
: : Unfortunately, such idyllic (or ideal) societies/ cultures exist in only
: : fairy tales, and I was under the impression that we all were trying to
: : come to grips with reality. Please correct me if I am wrong.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I don't understand you here. Certainly it is wrong that SOME muslims
: should riot if their procession is not allowed to go into an unapproved
: route. I condemn it. However, this does not justify the strident postures
: of Hindu communalism (suitably represented by Babu Ramabadran). Neither
: does it justify forgetting the fact that the riots are essentially
: triggered by vested interests and innocent people perish. Would you have
: me believe that all the people who died in the riots were the rioters
: themselves?
: : Also, your statements (see above) are basically negationist. By accepting
: : the possibility of communal disharmony, probablly incited by Moslems, you
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: The slip show. The communal disharmony was incited by SOME muslims, not
: all muslims. How would you feel if a Dalit demand that
: recrimination be meted out to you and me (persons born into Brahmin
: Caste) because of some torture an upper caste man committed on Dalits.
: : are basically negating any justification of Hindu " retaliation ". To me
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : this is basically closed-minded liberalism, since you are denying the fact
: : Hindus should defend themselves against Moslem communalism, even if the
: : latter may have instigated such in the first place.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: The justification is as valid as the Wolf's argument in Aesop's fable
: that he (the Wolf) is entitled to eat the lamb because the lamb's father
: had dirtied the wate the Wolf drank.
: : Maybe you were dreaming of idyllic situations and fanciful prose, as is
: : very typical of Bengalis. I have witnessed almost riots not only
: : during India-Pakistan cricket matches, but even on situations involving the
: : soccer matches between East Bengal vs. Mohammedan Sporting or Mohun Bagan
: : vs. Mohammedan Sporting, near Taltala - Suren Bannerjee Road. I had
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : many times avoided taking private bus # 39 simply to play safe.
: Of course, the famous East Bengal-Mohun Bagan rivalries were always
: peaceful! I do condemn violence but I also condemn attempts to tar the
: whole of Muslims with the same brush.
Nalinaksha: YOur arguments are fine. For instance you argue that
some Muslims create trouble, so why blame the entire community.
That is right. I do not think that such sort of over-arching
characterization is practiced by the hardliners of BJP.
On a parallel note, the habit of massive generalisations was atleast
in India has been started by the Left. Witness how the Leftists
characterized the entire Indian history as a class struggle, and
also created a very good line of arguments supporting reverse
discrimination (against 'upper' castes). The history books have
constantly reminded us that 'upper' castes (a very broad term)
have constantly harbored discrimination against 'low' castes.
Further, they have almost synonymously used 'upper' for Brahmins
and 'lower' for Shudras. Despite the fact that the max. repression
in a general sense was carried out by Thakurs and the landlords.
Still further, the Leftists perhaps deliberately, refused to say
that most of the intellectual resistance to caste discrimination
has also come from the 'upper' castes.
On a somewhat different note, I think that whenever Deb, (esp.
Deb) speaks of Muslims as 'bad' I do not think he means the
Muslim folks. Perhaps I am reading his mind. However, I do think
that Islamic thought in general, is quite blatantly dismissive of
other religions. And it is this thought that has held the grips
on the minds of crores of Muslims in India. Whenever, Muslims
have tried to reform and recd. renewed inspiration from Islam,
they have moved more in the direction of separatism, and
isolationism. We have seen this happen in Bengal, and now
in Kashmir. It is this Islam, that I think Deb is uncomfortable
with. Not Muslims.
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4qghup$2...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> soum...@ix.netcom.com(Soumitra
Bose) writes:
>
>What a stupid argument . I wish I had a god to whom, I could ask with
>what materials are the brains of BJP-wallahs are made, or He/She might
>say well they had none at all...
>
>Who votes for the communal hindu leaders , well the innocent hindu
>voters of Mumbai , so they are liable to be killed ,,,,,great ,
>wonderful...
>
>>
>> I caught you Nalinaksh at the wakest point here. Yes it is the
>>commen and innocent muslims that should suffer in the riots. You will
>>ask why and that is what I am going to explain here.
>>
>>** Who gives vote to the communal muslim leaders? Answer is so-
>called
>>innocent muslims.
>>
>>** who promises safety for the muslims???? Communal Muslim leaders.
>>** Who started rioting ?? The so called vanguards of the innocent
>>muslims.
>
>Who starts the rioting in other parts in India? against the muslims
so
>they need be killed too....
Soumitra : Can you point out a single instance where the riot was
initiated by hindus. All the riots are the result of muslims
stubbornness. We have to deal with it. Can I request to look this
matter in an unbiased manner????
>>** Why didnot muslim vote for Honest Hindu leader ?? Becaue he
wanted
>>a communal muslims leaders.
>>
>Where did such thing happen? Where is a honest hindu leader there in
>that area, you mean a BJP-non-identity?
Yes dada : The problem is that the hones leaders are not elected in
bengal. That is the failure of the calcutta if it can not produce even
a single honest leder. The leader need not be hindu but should be
honest at all the costs. Becaue the politics of the state is in the
hands of the leaders who are less than honest, the muslims are able to
raise there ugly head every now and then.
>
>>** Why muslims do not choose non-cummunal muslim leaders ?? Becaue
>such
>>leaders do not appeal to the communal (muslim minds ) of muslims.
>>
>Throughout Bengal the muslims vote for Hindu leaders too when they fit
>him right.BJP poised a Muslim puppet candidate in Satgachia against
>Jyoti Basu .BJP thought they would get the muslim votes , The muslims
>en-masse voted for Jyoti Basu.It was just one of the extreme
>examples...
you got my point . The leader should not be hindu be name but by
actions also. Do you think that one can call MULAYAM SINGH YADAV and
LALLO PRASAD YADAV as honset hindu leaders. They are not muslims but
are more dangerous than JINNAH/SHURWARDI KHAN/KAMALLUDDIN SHAMS all
combined. I do not think that JYOTI BASU is any better. All are
communal but have hindu names. Such people are shame to hindus.
These leaders cheat hindus with there names but always instigate the
muslims. As a result of it, it is common hindu who suffers. Poor hindus
are killed. Hindus houses are burnt. Hindu children are orphaned. The
muslims enmass voted for Jyoti BASU not because they voted to honest
hindu leaders, but they voted negetavily to a honest muslim leader who
happened to be BJP candidate. Though the JYOTI BASU IS a hindu, but he
is a **** who can compromise anything for power, even lives of bengali
hindus. After all what he is going to loose. It was also foolish of you
to think that if muslims voted the JYOTI BASU instead the muslim BJP
candidate, then JYOTI BASU
became massiah of muslims.
>
>>So muslims voted for communal leaders and they are suffering for
that.
>>AS YOU SOW , SO YOU REAP.
>>
>> Thus nothing wrong in what happened here. The muslims voted a
>leader
>>who was interested in the power rather than the development of the
>>muslims. There for the muslims will now learn who is real leader and
>>who is power monger. This justify the title of thread.
>>
>> Plese think practically rather than going into theoritical
>arguments
>>becaue theoritcal discussion bring theoritical conclusions only.
>>Problem still remains unsolved.
>>
>>>
>>>: Also, your statements (see above) are basically negationist. By
>>accepting
>>>: the possibility of communal disharmony, probablly incited by
>>Moslems, you
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>>~~~~~
>>>The slip show. The communal disharmony was incited by SOME muslims,
>>not
>>>all muslims.
>>
>> All the muslims are responsible for giving power to communal
>muslim
>>leaders and therefore they deserved to be treated as communal. No
>>muslim ( or anyother) leader can do anything without support of its
>>followers. The support of the muslims to communal leaders shows that
>>the average muslim is equally communal. Therefore all most all the
>>muslims deserve blame for the communal riot in calcutta.
>On the same token all the hindus are resposible for all the rapes of
>Kashmiris and Bombay muslim women .Well, that is exactly why bengalees
>wanted to dis-associate with BJP even when they are so-irked by the
>social fascists like CPM and the Goodas like Congress. I guess to us
>now Social-fascists are better than the religious fascists who
>distinguish people through the mark in the genitalia.
It is first time i am reading that the hindus are killing muslims
and raping there women in kashmir and bombay. You are illinformed and
you need to be in touch wiht the news to participate in discussion. As
the matter of fact hindus are suffering in kashmir. 3000000 hindus have
already left kashmir and are living in delhi refugee camps, like
refugees form bengal and punjab lived after are partition . Why this
partition even when the kashmir is part of india. It is your selfish
and apologist mind that does not want to accept the truth .
Also the BJP has gained its position in all the eastern states and
is recognised as the nationals alternative. It is true that it did not
conver into seats, but it was a challange to other parites. AS a matter
of fact in another 5-10 yeaers it will be BJP all around. The reason is
that the left parties have been unable to increase and expand there
vote baSE IN last 50 years. Also it has failed to recruit second
generation leader in its cadre. In another 10 years no leader will
be there to take care of congress and left parites. BJP has strong line
of leaders and lot of youths are joining it. Future generation will be
of BJP. You must understand this dynamics.
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: I caught you Nalinaksh at the wakest point here. Yes it is the
: commen and innocent muslims that should suffer in the riots. You will
: ask why and that is what I am going to explain here.
: ** Who gives vote to the communal muslim leaders? Answer is so- called
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: innocent muslims.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who votes for communal Hindu leaders? Answer is communal Hindus. The
statement (yours and my retort of it) can be equally applied to any
community anywhere.
: ** who promises safety for the muslims???? Communal Muslim leaders.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought our constitution requires that the state ensure sfaety for all
citizens. Obviously I was wrong.
: ** Who started rioting ?? The so called vanguards of the innocent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: muslims.
Some riots are started by Muslims and some are started by Hindus.
: ** Why didnot muslim vote for Honest Hindu leader ?? Becaue he wanted
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: a communal muslims leaders.
How do you know? Of course if your definition of Honest Hindu leader has
people like Bal Thackrey in mind then many Hindus will also vote against
this leader.
: ** Why muslims do not choose non-cummunal muslim leaders ?? Becaue such
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: leaders do not appeal to the communal (muslim minds ) of muslims.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is of course true that the present vocal section of muslim ledership
like Bukhari and Sahabuddin are non-secular. However, I attribute it to
the constant harping of ultra nationalists who seek to impose unilateral
blame on muslims for everything- from partition to temples destroyed 500
years back. It is also true that the ruling party (Congress) have also
accorded lime light to the non-secular portion of Muslim leadership when
it should have lent a helping hand to the progressive section of the
Muslim leadership like Asghar Ali Engineer. Stop your hate propaganda and
over time you will find that secular leaders have become the spokesperson
of the muslim comunity. The left front should also be faulted for
shielding a person like Shams.
:
: So muslims voted for communal leaders and they are suffering for that.
: AS YOU SOW , SO YOU REAP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let us extend your argument to understand the absurdity of your position.
Would you like to say that every Maharashtrian should be killed because
Nathuram Godse was a Maharashtrian? Would you like to say that all upper
caste person in India should be publicly humiliated because of the plight
of the untouchables. Of course such a position would be stupid and
vicious. However, you only require the slightest excuse to go blazing
against the Muslims. As an aside, in the Ekbalpore-Garden Reach area the
elected MLA is Ram Pyare Ram (Congress)
: Thus nothing wrong in what happened here. The muslims voted a leader
: who was interested in the power rather than the development of the
: muslims. There for the muslims will now learn who is real leader and
: who is power monger. This justify the title of thread.
: Plese think practically rather than going into theoritical arguments
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: becaue theoritcal discussion bring theoritical conclusions only.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Problem still remains unsolved.
We are not discussing the role of theoretical arguments in intellectual
progress. However, your underlined portion was source of much amusement
to me.
: All the muslims are responsible for giving power to communal muslim
: leaders and therefore they deserved to be treated as communal. No
: muslim ( or anyother) leader can do anything without support of its
: followers. The support of the muslims to communal leaders shows that
: the average muslim is equally communal. Therefore all most all the
: muslims deserve blame for the communal riot in calcutta.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, riots are started by rioters. Both Hindus and Muslims get killed in a
riot. Blame Kalimuddin Shams for Ekbalpore riots. Don't tar the muslims
with the same brush.
: I hope Nalinaksha that your doubts about the involvement of the
: whole muslims will be clear. I whould rather say that QURAN is also
: responsible for it as it is the fundamental source of all the ill
: teaching that the muslims should not obey anyone except the ALLAH. How
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: can you except the muslims to listen to ADMINISTRATION when there minds
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: are already corrupted by the QURAN.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your argument is certainly very novel and quite amusing at that. However,
do you suppose that the Hindus listen to the ADMINISTRATION all the time
(i.e no Hindu ever take a bribe, obtain illicit gratification etc)?
: The first step to tackle the menace of ISLAMIC RIOTS IS TO BAN QURAN
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: IN INDIA or remove the pages covering the JEHAD.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A large segment of Indian Population of India is illiterate. This section
has representation from Muslims. How do you suppose Muslims from this
strata "READ" the Quran? Let the muslims deal with whatever way do they
might treat Quran. Would you like advice from a muslim to remove those
pages from the Gita/Vedas which has reference to casteism?
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Raghu Seshadri
Nalinaksha writes -
: It is of course true that the present vocal section of muslim ledership
: like Bukhari and Sahabuddin are non-secular. However, I attribute it to
: the constant harping of ultra nationalists who seek to impose unilateral
: blame on muslims for everything- from partition to temples destroyed 500
: years back.
Alas, this reasonable guess is not true. In fact
Shahabuddin despises the secular guys FAR more
than he does the hindutva gang ! This was quoted
in India Today. As this is very puzzling at first
blush, he goes on to explain that secularism is
just a fraudulent pretence by Hindus who are too
cowardly to stand like a man and fight the brave
Muslims.
So, according to he himself, Shahabuddin would
have been nonsecular even if hindutva didn't
exist, and the whole country was filled with
secularists.
RS
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4qn4p0$3...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha
Bhattacharyya) writes:
>
>BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: I caught you Nalinaksh at the wakest point here. Yes it is the
>: commen and innocent muslims that should suffer in the riots. You
will
>: ask why and that is what I am going to explain here.
>
>: ** Who gives vote to the communal muslim leaders? Answer is so-
called
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~
NOPE: The analogy is wrong. "The upper cast hindus accept that the
untouchability is bad ". Not only that the govt has passed legislations
agisnt the untouchability. Also the untouchability is not practiced at
very larege scale now and will vanish soon.
However the problem of muslim communalism has not reduced even after
the division of india. The problem of the muslim communalism has only
become worse in past 50 years. Millions of hindus people are being
killed in kashmir. What action is being taken against that ??. The riot
of calcutta is living example muslim communalism. Why not the muslim
people, leaders and Mullahs condemn the muslim riots and killing of
hindus in kashmir. They will never do that because that will be against
the tenets of the QURAN. When a rioting is done , it is JEHAD and is
supported and endorsed by QURAN.
Of course such a position would be stupid and
>vicious. However, you only require the slightest excuse to go blazing
>against the Muslims. As an aside, in the Ekbalpore-Garden Reach area
the
>elected MLA is Ram Pyare Ram (Congress)
>
>: Thus nothing wrong in what happened here. The muslims voted a
leader
>: who was interested in the power rather than the development of the
>: muslims. There for the muslims will now learn who is real leader and
>: who is power monger. This justify the title of thread.
>
>: Plese think practically rather than going into theoritical
arguments
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~
>: becaue theoritcal discussion bring theoritical conclusions only.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>: Problem still remains unsolved.
>
>We are not discussing the role of theoretical arguments in
intellectual
>progress. However, your underlined portion was source of much
amusement
>to me.
>
>: All the muslims are responsible for giving power to communal
muslim
>: leaders and therefore they deserved to be treated as communal. No
>: muslim ( or anyother) leader can do anything without support of its
>: followers. The support of the muslims to communal leaders shows that
>: the average muslim is equally communal. Therefore all most all the
>: muslims deserve blame for the communal riot in calcutta.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>No, riots are started by rioters. Both Hindus and Muslims get killed
in a
>riot. Blame Kalimuddin Shams for Ekbalpore riots. Don't tar the
muslims
>with the same brush.
Was the man, who was fighting wiht the police for passage of tazia
a muslim leader?? Was he not a common muslim man?? were they not common
muslims who had gathered there for procession,??? Were they not
inspired by the feeling of being muslims?? Were they not there to carry
the tazia, through the dome patti even without the order of police, as
muslims?????
>
>: I hope Nalinaksha that your doubts about the involvement of the
>: whole muslims will be clear. I whould rather say that QURAN is also
>: responsible for it as it is the fundamental source of all the ill
>: teaching that the muslims should not obey anyone except the ALLAH.
How
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~
>: can you except the muslims to listen to ADMINISTRATION when there
minds
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~
>: are already corrupted by the QURAN.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Your argument is certainly very novel and quite amusing at that.
However,
>do you suppose that the Hindus listen to the ADMINISTRATION all the
time
>(i.e no Hindu ever take a bribe, obtain illicit gratification etc)?
>
>
>: The first step to tackle the menace of ISLAMIC RIOTS IS TO BAN
QURAN
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~
>: IN INDIA or remove the pages covering the JEHAD.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>A large segment of Indian Population of India is illiterate. This
section
>has representation from Muslims. How do you suppose Muslims from this
>strata "READ" the Quran? Let the muslims deal with whatever way do
they
>might treat Quran. Would you like advice from a muslim to remove those
>pages from the Gita/Vedas which has reference to casteism?
Yes SIR:: hindus are publically talking to do away wiht the
caste-system even without any inspiration from muslims. Will muslims
discuss publically to remove the pages covering the JEHAD from the
quran?? I am sure they will not. Let me know if they will ??
>
>--
>Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
What ever be the quality of your arguments ,,, I like your name very
much. Do you know what does it mean ??
Nalinaksha( nalin (lotous) + aksha(eyes )= the person whose eyes are
like lotous ) I am not sure if it is reffered to SHIVA or VISHNU.
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: NOPE: The analogy is wrong. "The upper cast hindus accept that the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: untouchability is bad ". Not only that the govt has passed legislations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: agisnt the untouchability. Also the untouchability is not practiced at
: very larege scale now and will vanish soon.
My point was made in connection with your point that as one sows so shall
one reap. Obviously you were using this proverb to justify your hate
against muslims. Now if you hold Muslims of present day India responsible
for say the sacking of Somnath, then by the same token you must hold all
Maharashtrian's guilty of Gandhi's murder or the loot by the Bargi and
all upper caste people to be guilty of untouchablity.
: However the problem of muslim communalism has not reduced even after
: the division of india. The problem of the muslim communalism has only
: become worse in past 50 years. Millions of hindus people are being
: killed in kashmir. What action is being taken against that ??. The riot
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kashmir problem is a separate issue. Firstly, Kashmiri Muslims have also
suffered deprivation in Kashmir. It is not only the Pandits who have
suffered deprivation. Secondly, what makes you think that Muslims from
all over India are accountable for Kashmir? How can you say that all Muslims
from say Moradabad is involved in Kashmir?
: of calcutta is living example muslim communalism. Why not the muslim
: people, leaders and Mullahs condemn the muslim riots and killing of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have already pointed out that Kashmir problem is a separate issue and
Muslims from the other parts of India has no say in Kashmir. Regarding
their condemning or not condemning the driving out of Pandits, would you
be kind enough enough to provide evidence that they have
welcomed/endorsed the plight of the Pandits? I have not condemned
Israel's bombing of a refugee camp in Lebanon-that does not mean that I
support Israel's action.
: hindus in kashmir. They will never do that because that will be against
: the tenets of the QURAN. When a rioting is done , it is JEHAD and is
: supported and endorsed by QURAN.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am an agnostic. I have read the Quran (and Bible and Gita). I have
found statements in all the three books which are acceptable to me and I
have found statements which are unacceptable to me. Religion for many
fulfills a cultural requirement (example-I participate in Durga Puja). A
religion adjusts to its times by reinterpretation of its tenets. Let the
followers of that religion do that. Of course there are muslims who are
fanatics. The point is that ALL muslims are NOT fanatic. Regarding the
specific concept of Jehad, many muslims already interpret Jehad as the
striving within oneself for good.
: Was the man, who was fighting wiht the police for passage of tazia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: a muslim leader?? Was he not a common muslim man?? were they not common
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: muslims who had gathered there for procession,??? Were they not
: inspired by the feeling of being muslims?? Were they not there to carry
: the tazia, through the dome patti even without the order of police, as
: muslims?????
They were Muslims no doubt. But what you are doing here is false
generalisation. Suppose, we talk about the Bombay riots in the aftermath
of Babri Masjid. Now, the main rioting was done by Shiv sena. Obviously,
Bal Thackrey did not lead the action in the field. Some hindus carried
out the action. Would you generalise this to be the participation and
connivance of ALL Hindus? No. Then why do it for Muslims?
: Yes SIR:: hindus are publically talking to do away wiht the
: caste-system even without any inspiration from muslims. Will muslims
: discuss publically to remove the pages covering the JEHAD from the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: quran?? I am sure they will not. Let me know if they will ??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As I have explained earlier the means by which a religion adjusts to the
times is by reinterpretation. Muslims do that too. Your demand for
removal of pages from Quran has more to do with your desire to insult
Muslims than anything else. Regarding caste system and its removal,
please don't tell me that ALL Hindus are talking about removing caste
barriers-for proof open the page of Matrimonial advertisement of any
Indian newspaper.
: What ever be the quality of your arguments ,,, I like your name very
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you for a most ammusing statement!
: much. Do you know what does it mean ??
: Nalinaksha( nalin (lotous) + aksha(eyes )= the person whose eyes are
: like lotous ) I am not sure if it is reffered to SHIVA or VISHNU.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For a militant Hindu like yourself it should be a revealation that the
name refers to Lord Rama.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
dchat...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
In article <4qf9jb$u...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, bha...@unixg.ubc.ca
(Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) writes:
> dchat...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
>......[deleted for brevity].....<
> you to read " Bengal Divided" by Joya Chatterjee. She has shown how
> Sircar's interpretation was communal in character. I have not read Will
> Durant.
If you are being proselytized by some ficticious and unkown character
like Joya Chatterjee, whose " scholarly " opinions on Sir Jadunath
Sircar are at best a pompous display of ignorance, then our argument
stops here.
I suggest you read some works of Will Durant (STORY OF CIVILIZATION)
to educate yourself before jumping onto the bandwagon of garrulous,
[p]secular, counter-culturist hypocrites..
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
dchat...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
: If you are being proselytized by some ficticious and unkown character
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: like Joya Chatterjee, whose " scholarly " opinions on Sir Jadunath
: Sircar are at best a pompous display of ignorance, then our argument
: stops here.
The book exists. Joya chatterjee also exists. Therefore, the use of the
term fictitious is curious. Have you read Joya's book before making your
comments (or at least flipped through it) ?
: I suggest you read some works of Will Durant (STORY OF CIVILIZATION)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: to educate yourself before jumping onto the bandwagon of garrulous,
: [p]secular, counter-culturist hypocrites..
:
I shall do show as soon as I have some time.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
N. Tiwari
: BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: : NOPE: The analogy is wrong. "The upper cast hindus accept that the
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : untouchability is bad ". Not only that the govt has passed legislations
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : agisnt the untouchability. Also the untouchability is not practiced at
: : very larege scale now and will vanish soon.
: My point was made in connection with your point that as one sows so shall
: one reap. Obviously you were using this proverb to justify your hate
: against muslims. Now if you hold Muslims of present day India responsible
: for say the sacking of Somnath, then by the same token you must hold all
: Maharashtrian's guilty of Gandhi's murder or the loot by the Bargi and
: all upper caste people to be guilty of untouchablity.
I do not hold present Muslims responsible of Somnath of Ayodhya plunder. In
fact, no one does. But then, that still does not remove an occupied
mandir from the eyes of mine. A temple as important as Somnath.
So, dismantling an icon of shame, has nothing to do with the
dis-association of the modern mussalman with past acts of intolerance.
: : However the problem of muslim communalism has not reduced even after
: : the division of india. The problem of the muslim communalism has only
: : become worse in past 50 years. Millions of hindus people are being
: : killed in kashmir. What action is being taken against that ??. The riot
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Kashmir problem is a separate issue. Firstly, Kashmiri Muslims have also
: suffered deprivation in Kashmir. It is not only the Pandits who have
: suffered deprivation. Secondly, what makes you think that Muslims from
: all over India are accountable for Kashmir? How can you say that all Muslims
: from say Moradabad is involved in Kashmir?
Like it or not, separatism in Kashmir is closely related to
Islamic theology. In the very much same way, as it was related
when Bengal was separated ON POPULAR DEMAND. How is it, that
the Kashmiri Muslim, who has more than his fare share of
representation in the governance of Kashmir and Jammu, is
still disenchanted with the GOI. Also, if it was not for
Islam, how is it, that the level of acceptance of Burka,
Madarsa style education, Urdu, has been increasing with
the rising millitancy in Kashmir. Afterall, if Kashmiriat
and socio-economic aspirations were the sole purpose of
the entire struggle, why would the rebels try to propagate
Urdu.
: : of calcutta is living example muslim communalism. Why not the muslim
: : people, leaders and Mullahs condemn the muslim riots and killing of
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I have already pointed out that Kashmir problem is a separate issue and
: Muslims from the other parts of India has no say in Kashmir. Regarding
: their condemning or not condemning the driving out of Pandits, would you
: be kind enough enough to provide evidence that they have
: welcomed/endorsed the plight of the Pandits? I have not condemned
: Israel's bombing of a refugee camp in Lebanon-that does not mean that I
: support Israel's action.
You are wrong. At the theological level, Muslims are one. So,
the Kashmiri separatist can only recieve sympathies and assistance
from a devout Muslim. The more devout you are, the more is it
your duty to support the separatism in Kashmir. A good example
of this ummah idea was reflected in the Khilafat struggle. The
Indian Muslim tried his best to ensure that the Khilafat in
Turkey was left intact and unharmed, by the Western powers.
I ask you Nalinaksha, what material reason did the Indian
Khilafites have, to meddle in purely Turkish affairs.
: : hindus in kashmir. They will never do that because that will be against
: : the tenets of the QURAN. When a rioting is done , it is JEHAD and is
: : supported and endorsed by QURAN.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I am an agnostic. I have read the Quran (and Bible and Gita). I have
: found statements in all the three books which are acceptable to me and I
: have found statements which are unacceptable to me. Religion for many
: fulfills a cultural requirement (example-I participate in Durga Puja). A
: religion adjusts to its times by reinterpretation of its tenets. Let the
: followers of that religion do that. Of course there are muslims who are
: fanatics. The point is that ALL muslims are NOT fanatic. Regarding the
: specific concept of Jehad, many muslims already interpret Jehad as the
: striving within oneself for good.
No. Some religions change with changing times. Some like Islam
are eternal, unchangeable, and for all times. That is the message
of Islam. If you have indeed read Koran, you will certainly
be aware of that.
As far as the unacceptableness of some verses in Gita/Koran/Bible
are concerned, there are levels of unacceptableness. If someone
explicitly calls upon the faithful to kill me, it is not only
unacceptable, but dangerous too. That is the intolerance which
we speak about. If you are so confident of the Islamic generosity,
try running an agnostic club in Iran. You pretty well know your
fate in such a nation. As far as Jihad is concerned, your def. is
100% wrong. Any honest Islamic expert will tell that. All these
defs. are just platitudes, which cut no ice. Jihad is war, unrelenting,
against the heathens. We see such attitude in the Prophet himself.
If he was not a good Muslim (since he did not subscribe to your
def., who is). Also, read Voltaire's: Mahomet, Prophet or Fanatic.
: : Was the man, who was fighting wiht the police for passage of tazia
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : a muslim leader?? Was he not a common muslim man?? were they not common
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : muslims who had gathered there for procession,??? Were they not
: : inspired by the feeling of being muslims?? Were they not there to carry
: : the tazia, through the dome patti even without the order of police, as
: : muslims?????
: They were Muslims no doubt. But what you are doing here is false
: generalisation. Suppose, we talk about the Bombay riots in the aftermath
: of Babri Masjid. Now, the main rioting was done by Shiv sena. Obviously,
: Bal Thackrey did not lead the action in the field. Some hindus carried
: out the action. Would you generalise this to be the participation and
: connivance of ALL Hindus? No. Then why do it for Muslims?
When we have generalisations, there are precisely that. Generalizations.
As a rule, generalizations have scatter point. However, the GOI
records themselves clearly show that the Muslim intolerance
has been the biggest factor in the eruption of post-independent
riots. These are the records of GOI, a secular GOI.
: : Yes SIR:: hindus are publically talking to do away wiht the
: : caste-system even without any inspiration from muslims. Will muslims
: : discuss publically to remove the pages covering the JEHAD from the
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : quran?? I am sure they will not. Let me know if they will ??
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: As I have explained earlier the means by which a religion adjusts to the
: times is by reinterpretation. Muslims do that too. Your demand for
: removal of pages from Quran has more to do with your desire to insult
: Muslims than anything else. Regarding caste system and its removal,
: please don't tell me that ALL Hindus are talking about removing caste
: barriers-for proof open the page of Matrimonial advertisement of any
: Indian newspaper.
Islam does not pander to your whims and fancies. There are
certain things in it, which are rigid, immutable, and fixed.
If you do not like it, do not quote it with: "every religion
changes". So, while Hinduism can change, however slowly or
fastly, Islam CANNOT change. That is the difference, which
you are aware of, but are scared to acknowledge.
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
: I do not hold present Muslims responsible of Somnath of Ayodhya plunder. In
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am glad to hear that.
: fact, no one does. But then, that still does not remove an occupied
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Look at the posts of Babu Rambadran and other Hidutwa champions and you
would see that your statement (underlined above) is false.
: mandir from the eyes of mine. A temple as important as Somnath.
: So, dismantling an icon of shame, has nothing to do with the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I assume you are talking of Babri Masjid. Firstly, it is not established
that a temple was destroyed to make a masjid at that spot. Secondly,
given the fact that BJP Chief Minister lied to the Supreme court and made
a false promise of protecting the masjid and the riots that followed and
the heightened rhetoric that was used during Kar Seva, Babri Masjid had
more to do with BJP's cynical search for power than anything else.
: dis-association of the modern mussalman with past acts of intolerance.
: Like it or not, separatism in Kashmir is closely related to
: Islamic theology. In the very much same way, as it was related
: when Bengal was separated ON POPULAR DEMAND. How is it, that
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is quite clear that you have a communal agenda and moreover you do not
understand Bengal. Separitism in Kashmir arose because of many things.
Islamic fundamentalism is not the cause of Kashmiri separatism. Islamic
fundamentalists are just taking advantage of the dissatisfaction to push
their agenda.
: the Kashmiri Muslim, who has more than his fare share of
: representation in the governance of Kashmir and Jammu, is
: still disenchanted with the GOI. Also, if it was not for
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A partial answer could be because successive elections in Kashmir were
rigged by Nehru and his progeny. However, I have not read enough on
Kashmir to discuss further.
: Islam, how is it, that the level of acceptance of Burka,
: Madarsa style education, Urdu, has been increasing with
: the rising millitancy in Kashmir. Afterall, if Kashmiriat
: and socio-economic aspirations were the sole purpose of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do understand this. Political parties and groups try to further their own
agenda using popular discontent. Islamic fundamentalists have their own
agenda and they are trying to push it using the discontent among Kashmiri
people.[In case it is not clear to you, I consider fundamentalism to be
evil and that includes both Hindu and Muslim fundamentalism]. A parallel
example would be a pork eating Jinnah shedding tears for Muslims.
: You are wrong. At the theological level, Muslims are one. So,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Assumption on your part. Just because all Muslims pray to Allah does not
mean they will have the same political agenda.
: the Kashmiri separatist can only recieve sympathies and assistance
: from a devout Muslim. The more devout you are, the more is it
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Two of the most devoted muslims were Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Khan
Abdul Gaffer Khan. I am sure you know about their political view about
the creation of Pakistan. Havildar Abdul Hamid died after destrying
several Pattons in an Indo-Pak war.
: your duty to support the separatism in Kashmir. A good example
: of this ummah idea was reflected in the Khilafat struggle. The
: Indian Muslim tried his best to ensure that the Khilafat in
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Khilafat was a reactionary movement. But once again that took place at a
time when British imperealism was dominant. Surely, part of the Khilafat
movement was an expression against British Imperealism. However, learn
from history and do not repeat it. Also presume a man to be innocent
until proven otherwise. The whole attitude of Hidutwa Brigade is to
somehow tar the muslim community with a brush.
: No. Some religions change with changing times. Some like Islam
: are eternal, unchangeable, and for all times. That is the message
: of Islam. If you have indeed read Koran, you will certainly
: be aware of that.
Very few things in life are eternel. In the matter of religion, surely
the verses of Quran do not change (neither do the verses of the Bible or
the Gita or the Vedas). What changes is the interpretation and the
emphasis people put on them. Bertrand Russel once wrote that in the
middle ages people burned women at the stake because somewhere the Bible
says that 'thou shall not suffer a witch to live'. No devout christian
quotes that passage in the present day. If you look at the social reform
movement in Hinduism, the orthodox did oppose liberal measures on the
ground that Hinduism warrants this or that practice (example Sati, widow
remarriage). They also quoted Slokas from various Shastras. Those slokas
still remain. What is different is that people do not emphasise them any
more.
: we speak about. If you are so confident of the Islamic generosity,
: try running an agnostic club in Iran. You pretty well know your
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only a fool would do that. However, I doubt it my fate would have been
any better if Jagadguru Shankaracharya was in power instead of Ayatollahs.
: When we have generalisations, there are precisely that. Generalizations.
: As a rule, generalizations have scatter point. However, the GOI
: records themselves clearly show that the Muslim intolerance
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: has been the biggest factor in the eruption of post-independent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: riots. These are the records of GOI, a secular GOI.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reference?
: Islam does not pander to your whims and fancies. There are
: certain things in it, which are rigid, immutable, and fixed.
: If you do not like it, do not quote it with: "every religion
: changes". So, while Hinduism can change, however slowly or
: fastly, Islam CANNOT change. That is the difference, which
: you are aware of, but are scared to acknowledge.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Religion is practiced by people and the fervour of the middle ages has
often been quietly dropped in modern times. That certainly happened with
Christianity. When I say that every religion changes, I mean that the
people following that religion tend to emphasise or deemphasises certain
things which might have been very important in an earlier era. Obviously,
the scriptures of no religion will ever change. What changes is their
interpretation.
Regarding your point about my being scared to acknowledge, do you
remember my exchanges with Islamic fundamentalists like Fahmy Qazi and
Zulfiquar Shahnawaz?
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Ranjan Maitra
: N. Tiwari (nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu) wrote:
: : I do not hold present Muslims responsible of Somnath of Ayodhya plunder. In
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I am glad to hear that.
: : fact, no one does. But then, that still does not remove an occupied
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Look at the posts of Babu Rambadran and other Hidutwa champions and you
: would see that your statement (underlined above) is false.
: : mandir from the eyes of mine. A temple as important as Somnath.
: : So, dismantling an icon of shame, has nothing to do with the
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I assume you are talking of Babri Masjid. Firstly, it is not established
: that a temple was destroyed to make a masjid at that spot. Secondly,
: given the fact that BJP Chief Minister lied to the Supreme court and made
The CM did not "lie" to the Supreme Court, in any sense if the term. You are
getting too carried away.
Secondly, the demand for the temple is on the 3 for 3000 (for at least 3000
temples that were destroyed to make mosques). Also, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad
had given an offer that they would relocate the mosque structure. Why was this
not taken up on? Why was the Vajpayee formula for a symbolic transfer not taken
up?
: a false promise of protecting the masjid and the riots that followed and
: the heightened rhetoric that was used during Kar Seva, Babri Masjid had
: more to do with BJP's cynical search for power than anything else.
I suggest you go back and read the newspapers again. The riots were started
by those angry at the destruction of the disputed structure.
: : dis-association of the modern mussalman with past acts of intolerance.
: : Like it or not, separatism in Kashmir is closely related to
: : Islamic theology. In the very much same way, as it was related
: : when Bengal was separated ON POPULAR DEMAND. How is it, that
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: It is quite clear that you have a communal agenda and moreover you do not
: understand Bengal. Separitism in Kashmir arose because of many things.
: Islamic fundamentalism is not the cause of Kashmiri separatism. Islamic
: fundamentalists are just taking advantage of the dissatisfaction to push
: their agenda.
I am surprised at your response here, especially because the answer should have
been: Bengal was not separated on POPULAR demand. It was partitioned in order
to sow the seeds of dissension between the Bengali Hindus and the Muslims --
and very effectively, so.
: : the Kashmiri Muslim, who has more than his fare share of
: : representation in the governance of Kashmir and Jammu, is
: : still disenchanted with the GOI. Also, if it was not for
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: A partial answer could be because successive elections in Kashmir were
: rigged by Nehru and his progeny.
Getting carried away again? The only election that was substantially rigged
(even though even the erstwhile MUF felt would not have made a difference)
was the 1987 elections and the rigging was done largely by the "disco Chief
Minister" Farooq Abdullah's National Conference.
However, I have not read enough on
: Kashmir to discuss further.
You'd better. Care to explain why Ladakh wants to be out of Kashmir and into
the Union as a Union Territory? After all, Hindus cannot tolerate the Muslims
so Jammu or Panun Kashmir does not count, but why the Ladakhis?
: Very few things in life are eternel. In the matter of religion, surely
: the verses of Quran do not change (neither do the verses of the Bible or
: the Gita or the Vedas). What changes is the interpretation and the
You are sadly mistaken; if you look at the version of the New Testament
available in the US, there is no reference to slaves at all.....
: emphasis people put on them. Bertrand Russel once wrote that in the
: middle ages people burned women at the stake because somewhere the Bible
: says that 'thou shall not suffer a witch to live'. No devout christian
: quotes that passage in the present day. If you look at the social reform
: movement in Hinduism, the orthodox did oppose liberal measures on the
: ground that Hinduism warrants this or that practice (example Sati, widow
: remarriage). They also quoted Slokas from various Shastras. Those slokas
: still remain. What is different is that people do not emphasise them any
: more.
: : we speak about. If you are so confident of the Islamic generosity,
: : try running an agnostic club in Iran. You pretty well know your
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Only a fool would do that. However, I doubt it my fate would have been
: any better if Jagadguru Shankaracharya was in power instead of Ayatollahs.
The Congress-I swami? But you see, Hindu thought specifically precludes such
a possibility. Remember the king had two powerful persons: the Senani or the
army chief who would take care of the forces and the Purohita or the priest who
would perform the spiritual duties of the kingdom.
Nachiketa Tiwari
: : mandir from the eyes of mine. A temple as important as Somnath.
: : So, dismantling an icon of shame, has nothing to do with the
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I assume you are talking of Babri Masjid. Firstly, it is not established
: that a temple was destroyed to make a masjid at that spot. Secondly,
: given the fact that BJP Chief Minister lied to the Supreme court and made
: a false promise of protecting the masjid and the riots that followed and
: the heightened rhetoric that was used during Kar Seva, Babri Masjid had
: more to do with BJP's cynical search for power than anything else.
There is ample evidence about the temple-ness of the structure.
The leftist establishment has itself accepted that. The only
argument, which now keeps on coming from that side is: "Show
me whether Ram was born there".
As for Kalyan Singh's involvement, perhaps he was involved.
Perhaps he was not. Perhaps, he could not control the
eventuality. But all that is besides the point. The truth
of the matter is that if you do not solve a problem as
critical as this in a decent period of time, things like
Babri do happen. And the responsibility also lies on the
ones who had delaying the things. So, if Brits do not want
to address the issue of Indian independence, it is only
a matter of time that the Indian folks take the matter
in their own hands. And if Indians do not take that matter
in their own hands soon enough, they run the risk of
perishing. The same argument applies in case of RJB-BM
episode.
: : Like it or not, separatism in Kashmir is closely related to
: : Islamic theology. In the very much same way, as it was related
: : when Bengal was separated ON POPULAR DEMAND. How is it, that
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: It is quite clear that you have a communal agenda and moreover you do not
: understand Bengal. Separitism in Kashmir arose because of many things.
: Islamic fundamentalism is not the cause of Kashmiri separatism. Islamic
: fundamentalists are just taking advantage of the dissatisfaction to push
: their agenda.
The fact that Bengal was divided on communal lines, and also
that most of the Muslims voted for a separate Bengal, and
also the fact that Islamiyat was the driving force behind this
schism, is a sufficient proof that Bengal's division was because
of Islamic ideology. Acknowledging this does not amount to
charges of communalism. If I was a communalist, then you might
as well go ahead and label Voltaire as a communalist too, since
he wrote a drama: "Mahomet: Prophet or a Fanatic".
We see the same reasons behind Kashmiri separatism. While you
can write fat disserations as why Kashmiri separatism is not
because of Islam, you cannot explain one simple thing as to
why the Buddhists in Ladhakh do not want a separate place for
them, even though they are more poor and more unrepresented
in the affairs of the State.
: : the Kashmiri Muslim, who has more than his fare share of
: : representation in the governance of Kashmir and Jammu, is
: : still disenchanted with the GOI. Also, if it was not for
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: A partial answer could be because successive elections in Kashmir were
: rigged by Nehru and his progeny. However, I have not read enough on
: Kashmir to discuss further.
Read above.
: : Islam, how is it, that the level of acceptance of Burka,
: : Madarsa style education, Urdu, has been increasing with
: : the rising millitancy in Kashmir. Afterall, if Kashmiriat
: : and socio-economic aspirations were the sole purpose of
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Do understand this. Political parties and groups try to further their own
: agenda using popular discontent. Islamic fundamentalists have their own
: agenda and they are trying to push it using the discontent among Kashmiri
: people.[In case it is not clear to you, I consider fundamentalism to be
: evil and that includes both Hindu and Muslim fundamentalism]. A parallel
: example would be a pork eating Jinnah shedding tears for Muslims.
Islam is only fundamentalist. It seeks no other allegiance
other than with Islamic fundamentals. These fundamentals
(most of them) are pretty much laid down in pretty unabmigous
terms in Koran and Hadiths. So, the term Islamic fundamentalism
is redundant.
Hinduism on the other hand is diverse, sometimes ambiguous and
unclear. Each line of it, (from Vedas to Puranas) has duality
about it. So, you by any stretch of imagination arrive at a
set of fundamentals, as far as Hinduism is concerned. That
is why we have infinite number of bhasyas in Hinduism. So,
the term Hindu-fundamentalism, is inherently contradictory.
So, any stmt like: "I despise Islamic as well as Hindu
fundamentalism" is dishonest at the worst, or naive at
the best.
: : You are wrong. At the theological level, Muslims are one. So,
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Assumption on your part. Just because all Muslims pray to Allah does not
: mean they will have the same political agenda.
No sir. No assumption by any standards. Ummah is one. The Koran
clearly says so. There is no political-spiritual schism between
the Ummah. Further, the aspirations and the end goals of Islam
are pretty much the same. It does not matter whether you are
a Shia or a Sunni.
Yet, Muslims like the rest of us, fight. Quarrel... Not because
Islam allows that. Rather, it is the triumph of the human nature
over Islam. But it is Islamic desire to overcome that internecine
quarrel, and turn it outwards.
: : the Kashmiri separatist can only recieve sympathies and assistance
: : from a devout Muslim. The more devout you are, the more is it
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Two of the most devoted muslims were Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Khan
: Abdul Gaffer Khan. I am sure you know about their political view about
: the creation of Pakistan. Havildar Abdul Hamid died after destrying
: several Pattons in an Indo-Pak war.
I have 100% respect for Hamid, and Gaffar Khan. They were pretty
devout. I do not know about Hamid, but Frontier Gandhi was not
devout in the sense you claim to be. He actually said that he
was a Pathan first, and then a Muslim.
As far as Maulana Azad, yes he was devout. And what views did
he harbor. Pretty dangerous. It is on record that he held the
opinion that partition was bad. What is also on record that
he held the opinion that partition was bad since because of
that Muslims have delayed the chances of Islamizing the entire
Hindustan, and have rather opted out for a much smaller
Islamic Pakistan.
: : your duty to support the separatism in Kashmir. A good example
: : of this ummah idea was reflected in the Khilafat struggle. The
: : Indian Muslim tried his best to ensure that the Khilafat in
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Khilafat was a reactionary movement. But once again that took place at a
: time when British imperealism was dominant. Surely, part of the Khilafat
: movement was an expression against British Imperealism. However, learn
: from history and do not repeat it. Also presume a man to be innocent
: until proven otherwise. The whole attitude of Hidutwa Brigade is to
: somehow tar the muslim community with a brush.
No Nalinaksha. Khilafat had all to do with Islam. Read more
about the nature of this movement. It had very little to
do with British imperialism in India. Rather the Muslims
were more worried about Khilafat in Turkey. There pain and
agony has been amply demonstrated in the poetry of Iqbal.
Further, there was also this idea to float an army from
India which will actually go and restore the Khilafat.
Still further, the Muslim leadership was all the time quite
supportive of the Brits, except when it had to face the issue
of Khilafat. There is ample historical documentation to sub-
stantiate this claim of mine. For all the time, the Muslim
leadership was actually trying to be in the good books of
Brits. It even labelled Brits as the protectors of Islam. But
the moment they saw that Turkey was being humiliated by
Brits, they started to oppose the Brits.
: : No. Some religions change with changing times. Some like Islam
: : are eternal, unchangeable, and for all times. That is the message
: : of Islam. If you have indeed read Koran, you will certainly
: : be aware of that.
: Very few things in life are eternel. In the matter of religion, surely
: the verses of Quran do not change (neither do the verses of the Bible or
: the Gita or the Vedas). What changes is the interpretation and the
: emphasis people put on them. Bertrand Russel once wrote that in the
: middle ages people burned women at the stake because somewhere the Bible
: says that 'thou shall not suffer a witch to live'. No devout christian
: quotes that passage in the present day. If you look at the social reform
: movement in Hinduism, the orthodox did oppose liberal measures on the
: ground that Hinduism warrants this or that practice (example Sati, widow
: remarriage). They also quoted Slokas from various Shastras. Those slokas
: still remain. What is different is that people do not emphasise them any
: more.
Two things. There are some things in each book which are clearly
clear. Such things need not be re-interpreted, since there meanings
are pretty fixed. Islamic fundamentals are more or less fixed
in that sense. They cannot be re-interpreteed since they are
very clear. And you cannot be TRUE Muslim, if you ignore these
central, fixed beliefs. And if you hold on to these central
beliefs, you become a very dangerous person. In that sense Koran
is a dangerous book, and must be taught with caution and fore-
warning.
Further, you are right in saying that some things can be simply
ignored. For instance the witch line in Bible. Muslims in general
have not yet reached a stage where they can simply ignore such
dangerous passages in Koran. The Christian society has. That is
another difference. This difference is even more acute, if we
look at the behavior of Indian Muslim.
: : we speak about. If you are so confident of the Islamic generosity,
: : try running an agnostic club in Iran. You pretty well know your
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Only a fool would do that. However, I doubt it my fate would have been
: any better if Jagadguru Shankaracharya was in power instead of Ayatollahs.
You bet. A Shankaracharya will be definitely a better bet than
an Ayotallah. Further, the priest in India never had the habit
of ruling. There concern was limited to advice, and spiritual
affairs. The Qazis and Khalifas had spiritual as well as temporal
authority. For instance, Abu Bakr, was quite well in-charge of
the Islamic state, as well as Islamic faith. That is a significant
difference.
: : When we have generalisations, there are precisely that. Generalizations.
: : As a rule, generalizations have scatter point. However, the GOI
: : records themselves clearly show that the Muslim intolerance
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : has been the biggest factor in the eruption of post-independent
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : riots. These are the records of GOI, a secular GOI.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Reference?
I am sure someone will dig them for you. At this point, I cannot.
: : Islam does not pander to your whims and fancies. There are
: : certain things in it, which are rigid, immutable, and fixed.
: : If you do not like it, do not quote it with: "every religion
: : changes". So, while Hinduism can change, however slowly or
: : fastly, Islam CANNOT change. That is the difference, which
: : you are aware of, but are scared to acknowledge.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Religion is practiced by people and the fervour of the middle ages has
: often been quietly dropped in modern times. That certainly happened with
: Christianity. When I say that every religion changes, I mean that the
: people following that religion tend to emphasise or deemphasises certain
: things which might have been very important in an earlier era. Obviously,
: the scriptures of no religion will ever change. What changes is their
: interpretation.
Once again, if I say that Sun rises in East, you cannot interpret
about this fact in two ways. A lot of Koranic verses are as clear
as the above stmt. So, do not hope for a re-interpretation for
those verses.
: Regarding your point about my being scared to acknowledge, do you
: remember my exchanges with Islamic fundamentalists like Fahmy Qazi and
: Zulfiquar Shahnawaz?
Denouncing someone arguing for hate is one thing. However, acknowledging
the roots of this hatred is something other. You can easily label
Fahmy etc. as fanatics and walk off. That is good. But a more basic
thing is: They get inspiration from the Koran itself. Are you willing
to take on that. If you do that, then you are attacking an ideology.
Not individuals, who have subjected themselves (rightly or wrongly)
to that ideology.
Renal Bhalakia
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
:Babu Rambadran wrote :
: : What ever be the quality of your arguments ,,, I like your name very
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Thank you for a most ammusing statement!
: : much. Do you know what does it mean ??
: : Nalinaksha( nalin (lotous) + aksha(eyes )= the person whose eyes are
: : like lotous ) I am not sure if it is reffered to SHIVA or VISHNU.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: For a militant Hindu like yourself it should be a revealation that the
: name refers to Lord Rama.
I beg to differ, it specifically refers to Vishnu,
Mangalam Bhagawaan Vishnu, Mangalam Garuddhwaj,
Mangalam Pundari-ksha, Mangalaya Namo Hari...
Pundari-ksha -> Lotus like eyes.
--
Renal.
===============================================================================
Aap ka aarman, aap ka naam, mera taraanah aur nahin,
In jukhti palko.n ke siva, dil ka thikana aur nahin,
Jachta hi nahin aankhon mein koi, dil tum ko hi chahe to kya ki jiye,
O mere dil ke chain, chain aaie mere dil ko dua ki jiye.....
- Majrooh (Mere Jeevan Saathi)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-mail : mailto:ccr...@cclabs.missouri.edu, mailto:ccr...@missouri.edu
WWW : http://www.phlab.missouri.edu/~ccrenal
Address : 110 Dorsey St., #205, Columbia, MO 65201.
Phone : 573-449-2892
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a perfect world :
Mornings would start later in the day.
(Jim "Garfield" Davis)
===============================================================================
Raja V
When I read the posts of Ranjan and Babu, I feel sympathetic - here are
intelligent people, very knowledgeable ; but bent on the wrong path.
Fundamentalism of all kinds is dangerous to a multi-cultural society like
India..we were a great civilization once because we had the maturity to
capitlaise on the different abilities of different people. So, where has
this xenophobia come from ? Is today's India the same India that once
embraced Jainism & Buddhism ? That conquered various countries ranging
from Burma to Indonesia only to set them free ?
I know that you guys are most worried about the spectre of Islamic
fundamentalism ... as any nation in the world is today. However, why do
you guys not make a distiniction between Indian Muslims and Muslim
Indians ? To my knowledge, the former are the majority in India's Muslim
population and are clearly great citizens..albeit economically backward.
Why do you insist on targeting these people ? They are as much a part of
Indian society and culture as you and I. (unless you want to "delete" me
of course..)
If you people prescribe fundamentalism as a response to fundamentalism,
where does this leave us ? What distinguishes Indians from the rest of
the world ?
Come on guys, enough of this bravura.. lets think rationally about these
things.
Raja V
Lakshmi Venkataraman
Raja V <ra...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>..you guys not make a distiniction between Indian Muslims and Muslim
>population and are clearly great citizens..albeit economically backward.
The Muslim friends I have had and still have are all extremely
wealthy - major real estate and restuarant owners in Madras and
madurai and educated too.
The point I am trying to make is majority of Indians are poor and
those who are middle class and above has a fair representation
from all groups.
Ranjan Maitra
I don't quite see the relevance to sci.j-k and sct, so followups to these
groups are zapped.
Raja,
I cannot speak for Babu so my response is only on my behalf. (This is also
valid for a previous post -- his last on this thread which does not appear on
my newsreader anymore -- by Anindya Ghoshal where he lumps me with Babu
Rambadran as a bigot.) I will address the points raised by you here. Since you
have lumped me together, it is clear that all the points that you make here are
as much valid for me as for Babu.
Raja V (ra...@netvigator.com) wrote:
: When I read the posts of Ranjan and Babu, I feel sympathetic - here are
: intelligent people, very knowledgeable ; but bent on the wrong path.
Thank you for your compliments and your "sympathy".
: Fundamentalism of all kinds is dangerous to a multi-cultural society like
: India..we were a great civilization once because we had the maturity to
: capitlaise on the different abilities of different people. So, where has
: this xenophobia come from ? Is today's India the same India that once
: embraced Jainism & Buddhism ? That conquered various countries ranging
: from Burma to Indonesia only to set them free ?
Fundamentalism of any form is dangerous anywhere. I agree with the rest of your
assessment. I invite you to read Mr. C. R. Irani's "caveat" of June 18(?) 1996
in The Statesman, Calcutta and New Delhi where he echoes very forcefully Mr
Vajpayee's contention that India is secular because it has a "Hindu" majority.
Mr. Vajpayee was the not the first to make this statement -- no less than a
person than Mr. Javed Habib, BMAC convenor has made this statement (in India
Today or Sunday just after Mr. Chandrashekhar took over as Prime Minister in
1991). What concerns me is that there is nowadays an attempt to mindlessly
denigrate one of the world's most tolerant philosophies, to do things in order
to appear secular. As an example, let us start with Doordarshan. For decades
since inception, the motto of this "pillar of truth" (sic) was "satyam shivam
sundaram" and the logo carried that. Last year, I was amused to find that this
motto had been dropped. Why? It was in Sanskrit and secularism meant that this
had to go. (Of course, I wouldn't have minded if this had been dropped to
reflect the true character of the service, but that is beside the point.) Next,
Urdu is being declared as the second language in many states; let us talk about
West Bengal. I have no problem with the language -- in fact, most of my family
members are very fluent in Urdu; my grandfather was Gold medallist at his
Universities and later Professor of Persian and Arabic -- however, why is this
being done. Because it is perceived to be an Islamic language and Muslims being
the largest minority, it must be the second language. Anyone who knows anything
about Bengali Muslims will tell you that that is hardly true. Most Bengali
Muslims have no knowledge of Urdu; in fact, in neighboring Bangladesh, the
language movement was what led to the Liberation war. Statistically speaking,
there are more people who speak English and/or Hindi in West Bengal than Urdu
because the densely populated Calcutta and its suburbs accounts for these Hindi
and/or English speakers; so either of these should logically be the second
language. Also, are we seeing some great advancement of any community as a
result of this? No, we are not. This is just tokenism in order to appear that
we are doing something great for the minority community.
The net result of all this is that today's "Hindu" suffers from a minority
complex. No less a person than Jawaharlal Nehru has identified this as the most
dangerous and sad day for India. Thus we have people writing reams of papers
on the rigged 1987 elections on Jammu and Kashmir, but what about the rigged
mandate of 1996. There was one thing clear about that mandate and that it was
and overwhekming mandate against corruption, and against the Congress-I.
However, we now have the spectacle of a Prime Minister claiming rather
dishonestly that corruption is not the most important issue; economic
development is. That is disingenuous because it is the rampant corruption in
the body politic that has denied us even the basic needs. All this in the name
of keeping the "communal" BJP out of power. This year, the BJP fought the
elections against corruption and good governance; in any case, the democratic
gains have to be respected. Anyway, my point is that all this doublespeak and
these double standards are having an effect on the average person. The result
is that fundamentalism is gradually going to seem the right thing to do and we
have to guard against that. Remove the scourge of double standards. Let justice
and fairplay prevail. That is my prescription. Unfortunately, I cannot see that
happening so I would like my worst fears of a growing backlash proved wrong.
: I know that you guys are most worried about the spectre of Islamic
: fundamentalism ... as any nation in the world is today. However, why do
: you guys not make a distiniction between Indian Muslims and Muslim
: Indians ? To my knowledge, the former are the majority in India's Muslim
: population and are clearly great citizens..albeit economically backward.
: Why do you insist on targeting these people ? They are as much a part of
: Indian society and culture as you and I. (unless you want to "delete" me
: of course..)
As far as I am concerned, I have made no comment on either Indian Muslims or
Muslim Indians. (As far as I know, this last term was introduced by Syed
Shahabuddin and that is the way he insists that Indians who follow the Islamic
way of life be called. I am equally comfortable with either term.) I have not
targetted any people here or anywhere except those "secular" people who play
with sentiments. Some of these are Muslim, most of these would write "Hindu"
as religion if they applied for any government job.
Regarding the deleting part, may I most humbly point out that you are the one
who actually want my opinion to be deleted. In fact, you tie my name up with
somebody else and then make general statements -- such an act is called
stereotyping and is also an ingredient of many crimes, notable among which are
Fascism and racism.
: If you people prescribe fundamentalism as a response to fundamentalism,
: where does this leave us ? What distinguishes Indians from the rest of
: the world ?
There has been no attempt on my behalf to prescribe fundamentalism with that.
You and I obviously are not reading and writing in the same language.
: Come on guys, enough of this bravura.. lets think rationally about these
: things.
I suggest we take you up on it.
: Raja V
Thanks,
Ranjan
PS: This is my last post on this thread. It has now gotten to be inane.
No personal e-mails, please.
Ranjan
Ranjan Maitra
Ranjan Maitra (mai...@louise.stat.washington.edu) wrote:
: Raja,
: I cannot speak for Babu so my response is only on my behalf. (This is also
: valid for a previous post -- his last on this thread which does not appear on
: my newsreader anymore -- by Anindya Ghoshal where he lumps me with Babu
: Rambadran as a bigot.)
Correction. The referred post by Mr. Anindya Ghoshal was in the thread "Babri
Masjid Demolition was NOT a mistake"; hence it does not appear on this thread.
Sorry for my mistake.
Raja V
Ranjan,
Please accept my unreserved apologies for any hurt I may have caused you
inadvertently. My original post was a response to one of your own and in
retrospect, looks ill considered.
Thanks for clearing up the matter. I see your point on the Muslim issue,
afraid I don't have any answers to the questions as yet.
Something bothers me and maybe you can help me. Where does all this
fascination with history start ? How do we get people to "forget" that
and focus on moving forward ?
Raja V
Ranjan Maitra
Raja V (ra...@netvigator.com) wrote:
: Ranjan,
: Please accept my unreserved apologies for any hurt I may have caused you
: inadvertently. My original post was a response to one of your own and in
: retrospect, looks ill considered.
Raja,
Apologies accepted. No hard feelings here; the matter is considered closed.
: Thanks for clearing up the matter. I see your point on the Muslim issue,
: afraid I don't have any answers to the questions as yet.
: Something bothers me and maybe you can help me. Where does all this
: fascination with history start ? How do we get people to "forget" that
: and focus on moving forward ?
My suggestions are as follows. From an academic point of view, it is necessary
to have a "fascination" with history till as far as you can go. Let us not
doctor history because it would hurt us or someone else. Let us put facts as
they are, and nothing else. Together with this comes the message that this is
a story of the past; the untold misery of the past will be the future if this
goes on and on. (This is true for Hindus and Muslims, upper and lower castes,
all sets of people.) More important, let us not go on with all this meaningless
tokenism. It does not get *any* community anything; just serves to harden
feelings and plays into the hands of rabid fundamentalists.
Of course, you would be guilty of hallucination as well if you joined me in
believing that this was actually going to happen!
Ranjan
: Raja V
: >
N. Tiwari
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: : I caught you Nalinaksh at the wakest point here. Yes it is the
: : commen and innocent muslims that should suffer in the riots. You will
: : ask why and that is what I am going to explain here.
: : ** Who gives vote to the communal muslim leaders? Answer is so- called
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : innocent muslims.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Who votes for communal Hindu leaders? Answer is communal Hindus. The
: statement (yours and my retort of it) can be equally applied to any
: community anywhere.
: : ** who promises safety for the muslims???? Communal Muslim leaders.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I thought our constitution requires that the state ensure sfaety for all
: citizens. Obviously I was wrong.
: : ** Who started rioting ?? The so called vanguards of the innocent
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : muslims.
: Some riots are started by Muslims and some are started by Hindus.
Agreed on the previous responses but not this one.
There is a book. Communal Riots in Bengal. The
author is a Bengali, probably a leftist (not sure).
In his preface, he acknowledges, that although most
of the stuff in his book, puts Muslims in bad light,
he is yet sure that both groups are equally responsible.
Later, he goes on to acknowledge, that whatever material
he came across, (and there is a lot of such material)
basically proved the non-innocence of Muslims in Bengal
riots between the times of Curzon and 1947. I can dig
out the name of the author for you, if need be.
: : ** Why didnot muslim vote for Honest Hindu leader ?? Becaue he wanted
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : a communal muslims leaders.
: How do you know? Of course if your definition of Honest Hindu leader has
: people like Bal Thackrey in mind then many Hindus will also vote against
: this leader.
: : ** Why muslims do not choose non-cummunal muslim leaders ?? Becaue such
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : leaders do not appeal to the communal (muslim minds ) of muslims.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: It is of course true that the present vocal section of muslim ledership
: like Bukhari and Sahabuddin are non-secular. However, I attribute it to
: the constant harping of ultra nationalists who seek to impose unilateral
: blame on muslims for everything- from partition to temples destroyed 500
: years back. It is also true that the ruling party (Congress) have also
: accorded lime light to the non-secular portion of Muslim leadership when
: it should have lent a helping hand to the progressive section of the
: Muslim leadership like Asghar Ali Engineer. Stop your hate propaganda and
: over time you will find that secular leaders have become the spokesperson
: of the muslim comunity. The left front should also be faulted for
: shielding a person like Shams.
You do not have to prove anything. History is all out there
for us to observe. From the time of 1890's till this date,
Muslim leadership, which has been popular with the masses
has been basically retrograde in nature. The Congress was
not there in a strong position in 1890's. Yet, Muslims chose
leaders, who spoke of religion, and who sang songs about
Aurangzeb and fanaticism.
Also, in your above assertion, you argue like this:
Muslims do not have progressive leaders since:
a) Hindu rightists impose on the Muslims to prove their
nationalism.
b) Congress leaders have pandered to communal considerations.
c) Leftists have done the same, by shielding netas like Shams.
d) Socialists have done the same, by shielding netas like
Taslimuddin.
Now tell me Nalinaksha, is our Muslim community so bankrupt
that their leadership is so strongly dependent on the whims
and fancies of Hindus, who come in all colors (right, left,
center). Also, if that is not the case, then why do'nt they
produce any signs of change.
: A large segment of Indian Population of India is illiterate. This section
: has representation from Muslims. How do you suppose Muslims from this
: strata "READ" the Quran? Let the muslims deal with whatever way do they
: might treat Quran. Would you like advice from a muslim to remove those
: pages from the Gita/Vedas which has reference to casteism?
I would listen to them. Discuss with them. And if need be,
drop my faith in verses of Gita, if it does not satisfy
my notions of justice. It has happened amongst the Hindus
since times immemorial.
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
N. Tiwari (nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu) wrote:
: Once again, how does movement of all these headquarters
: constitute a threat to WB's economy. I do not comment on
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Concentration of industrial finance in Western Region was an important
step towards development of West at the expense of the East. You see, the
locational advantage was destroyed by freight equalisation, the existing
industry was allowed to be run down by rent seekers, new industries were
diverted by licensing (do keep in mind that licensing was introduced to
"ensure balanced regional development") and financial power was
concentrated in the West to buttress these discriminatory policies.
: As regards licensing, and neglect of infrastructure, these
: have been all India problems. Also, if WB lagged behind
: Maharashtra, why do you not the buy the argument, that one
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: reason for that was that the political and administrative
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: reps. failed to do a sufficient advocacy to ensure that
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: WB recd. its due share. That can be a good argument too.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tell me, as constituent units of India can we legitimately expect fair
treatment or not? You pretend that it was rather a question of raising
issues in Parliament and that would have eliminated the discrimination.
Bofors have been debated in Parliament and still we do not know the
culprits. Structure of power is a complicated matter and not as simple as
you suggest. For a concrete example, look at the setting up of two
railway workshops in Punjab. This was done to ameliorate hurt feelings of
sikh. Now, would you like me to believe that all impartial analysis went
on behind the setting up of these? Take the case of Haldia Petrochemical.
Rajiv gandhi gave the permission with lot of funfare during an election
campaign after dragging the decision for years. Simultaneously the
financial institutions also gave their nod to the project even though
earlier they had maintained that the project was not viable!. How can the
analysis change so suddenly? I have already quoted Milton Friedman on his
experiences with an Indian Businessman on the question of Govt. Control.
The malaise was due to centralisation of power and the remedy lies in
undoing it.
: So. You tangentially do accept that folks from WB did not do
: sufficient amount of lobbying. Afterall, what else is the role
: of an MP in Lok Sabha, besides creating noise. As far as the
: noise generating capacity is concerned, I have seen all kinds
: of MP's excel in it. But when it comes to advocacy of their
: own regions, folks from Orissa, Bihar, E. UP, NE, Assam, and
: WB failed in relative terms. So, I would first put the blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: on my own rep. before raising a finger.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have a very simplistic view of the power structure in India. Your
statement that "folks from Orissa ..... failed in relative terms" is a
tautology because the lack of development of these regions is used to
imply that the MPs from these places have never tried. This is simply not
true. Politicians from these regions have spoken out against the neglect
of center. Biju Patnaik of Orissa once warned that if the discrimination
continues then India will be Balkanised. Laloo Yadav of Bihar has spoken
publicly against the manner his state is discriminated against. The Assam
agitation (basically chauvinistic in character) spoke about the
discrimination when they were not shouting about "foreigners". The left
from West Bengal has been talking about the discrimination for years.
Now you say that, well if the central govt. did not listen to the
grievances of these states, then, it means that these state leaders have
been ineffective! This is a tautology. If this continues any further then
this will give rise to secessionism.
: Shift of financial power is a little too vague. Tell me specifically
: as to how the shift of HQ, leads to differential economic
: access, policies, and privileges. As far as I understand,
: a HQ could as well be in Timbuktoo. But that does not mean
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: that Bombay will not have access to loans, forex, permits,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: etc. The reason for that is that working of these financial
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: institutions is sufficiently decentralized.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Firstly, any organisation in any part of the world must set boundaries of
activity between the region and headquarters. This is done for the
purpose of control. Therefore in any organisation you will find rules
like if you want to spend more than Rs. X then you will have to come with
a proposal to the Head Office. Therefore, your statement is not true for
most of the organisations of the world.
Secondly, if you have had any experience of the working of these
institutions, you will realise that for any substantial project the
decisions to fund or not are made in Bombay. The local office has leeway
only upto a certain limit. I have forgotten that limit now (and they keep
on changing) but for any project of significance the nod has to come from
Bombay.
Thirdly, the charge that the setting up of these institutions in Bombay
was meant to defraud the East is based on the observation that at the
time these institutions were set up, the manufacturing base was in the
East. These institutions were set up under the direct patronage of
Central Govt. One would have expected that at least some of the
instituions would have been set up in the East. Out of the six financial
institutions five was in Bombay and one was in Delhi and not a single
one was in the East. Moreover, the largest bank was shifted out of the
East. These coupled with the other discriminatory policies lies behind
our charge of systematic discrimination.
: In one of your previous posts, have mentioned that labor was
: not the ONLY factor. By that, I understood, that labor was
: atleast a contributor in some sense, to the decay of WB's
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: industry.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is not my contention that labour can never be blamed. There are
instances when the demand of the labour has been unjust. However, if we
examine the overall picture then the usual propaganda about labour truns
out to be shameless exaggaeration. Earlier, I had quoted RBI's study on
sickness in Indian Industry. The share of labour was 2%. Mismanagement
(if you have worked in India you will know that this term also includes
dishonest management) accounted for around 52%. In certain cases labour
have also turned away from the established trade unions and formed their
own organisation. An instance in this will be Kanoria Jute Mill.
: No. I am not. But Pranab should still be smart. If you are
: not smart, then you will suffer. No matter what the system
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In an unfair system, your sufference does not indicate whether you are
smart or not. This is because the dice is loaded against you.
: is. The Center in India has some money. It has to be divided
: into 25 odd states. A good way to do that is to distribute
: it upon the basis of need. Now, if a people are dying in
: Gonda in UP, and the folk from UP does not say that due to
: his ignorance, or casualness or whatever, how will I (assuming
: I am in some sense sitting over that money) allocate a
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: part of that money to Gonda.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have to be blind to make that kind of an assertion. The Govt. has a
bureaucracy to ensure that information comes to it. Consider the Asiad of
1982. Estimates say that between Rs. 1600-Rs.2000 crores were spent in
building all the famous flyovers of Delhi and other infrastructure. That
year there was a drought and drought relief was scanty because all
resources were flowing towards Asiad. The ostensible purpose was to
improve sports in India. We all know how much sports have improved in
India! Now will you tell me that this happened because poor Indira Gandhi
had no way of knowing that there was a drought!
: The present structure of India, need not imply that Center
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: is all powerful, and all responsible. It shares a part of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read the Constitution of India. We have concentrated power in the hands
of the center. In the matter of economics and industrial policy, I have
already given enough instances of what this centralisation has done and
for whose benefit.
: the responsibility. Part of that has to be shared by States
: too. It is this sense of togetherness, and sharing of
: responsibility that makes a nation great and prosperous.
: I am somewhat disappointed, that you Nalinaksha, who so
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: ardently argue for a 'syncretic' system, failed to realize
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: this.
~~~~~~~~~
I have lived and worked in many different parts of India. I believe that
there is a very broad similarity that runs through all the south Asian
cultures. If you read soc.culture.pakistan or soc.culture.bangladesh then
you will find amazing cultural similarity. I would always advocate for a
linkage between the different regions and the states of India. However,
this does not mean that one region can exploit another. The policies
hurting the east has been too many.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
N. Tiwari (nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu) wrote:
: Agreed on the previous responses but not this one.
: There is a book. Communal Riots in Bengal. The
: author is a Bengali, probably a leftist (not sure).
: In his preface, he acknowledges, that although most
: of the stuff in his book, puts Muslims in bad light,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: he is yet sure that both groups are equally responsible.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Possibly you are talking about "Communal riots in Bengal" by Suranjan Das.
The author has given his conclusion (underlined above). Are you trying to
say that part of his statement is true (the part that agrees with your
bias) but the other part is not?
: Later, he goes on to acknowledge, that whatever material
: he came across, (and there is a lot of such material)
: basically proved the non-innocence of Muslims in Bengal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: riots between the times of Curzon and 1947. I can dig
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: out the name of the author for you, if need be.
Nachiketa, nobody claims that no riot was ever started by muslims. What we
point out is that some riots were instigated by Muslim vested interests
and some riots were instigated by Hindu vested interests. It is time we
stop demonising each other. For Bengalis, the rebuilding and cementing of
bridge between the two bengals is a crucial task. We have to remove many
impediments on the way and demolish many sterotype images to achieve this.
Spare us. We can do without the hatemongering of BJP and their muslim
counterparts.
: You do not have to prove anything. History is all out there
: for us to observe. From the time of 1890's till this date,
: Muslim leadership, which has been popular with the masses
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: has been basically retrograde in nature. The Congress was
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: not there in a strong position in 1890's. Yet, Muslims chose
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: leaders, who spoke of religion, and who sang songs about
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Aurangzeb and fanaticism.
If you are talking about India, then Muslims have not supported
communalist parties in West Bengal after 1947. During Shah Bano case,
Hosainur Rahman wrote articles in Desh criticising Rajiv Gandhi's
retrograde step. If you are talking about Bangladesh then you will be
advised to look at the history of Bhasha Movement. If you are talking
about the pre-partition communal politics of the Muslim League, then you
would do well to bear the following facts in mind.
a) Under the Govt.of India Act, 1935, only revenue payers (inter alia)
were eligible for voting. That excluded the vast majority of people (both
Hindu and Muslim) from exercising their franchise. In simple terms no
body asked the bulk of Indian Muslims (who were poor) as to whether they
want Pakistan.
b) Look at the leadership-Jinnah, Surahwardy et al. Jinnah did not observe
any tenets of Islam. Yet he had the gall to ridicule a devout Muslim like
Maulana Azad as the "show boy". Surahwardy hailed from an Ashraf family
of Bengal. At home they spoke Urdu. I have seen accounts of Shurahwardy
eating pork. Do you think they were really motivated by Glory of Islam?
No, they were motivated by power and they rode over the bodies of
millions to achieve their power. BJP plans a replay and I hope that they
would not be successful.
: Also, in your above assertion, you argue like this:
: Muslims do not have progressive leaders since:
: a) Hindu rightists impose on the Muslims to prove their
: nationalism.
: b) Congress leaders have pandered to communal considerations.
: c) Leftists have done the same, by shielding netas like Shams.
: d) Socialists have done the same, by shielding netas like
: Taslimuddin.
: Now tell me Nalinaksha, is our Muslim community so bankrupt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: that their leadership is so strongly dependent on the whims
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: and fancies of Hindus, who come in all colors (right, left,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: center). Also, if that is not the case, then why do'nt they
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: produce any signs of change.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have to look at the overall picture and not lose the forest for the
trees. Shams is a disgrace. But, one of the very glorious achievement of
left in West Bengal is the near absence of casteist or communal rhetoric
in election campaign. That does not mean that we have to be blind to the
misdeeds of Shams. Similarly with Taslimuddin. If he is a criminal,
campaign against him. But why do I see subtle and not so subtle attempts
to underline his "muslimness"? By constantly harping on alleged Muslim
disloyality, BJP and Hindu Nationalists are driving the community in the
arms of Muslim comunalists, who pose as the protector of community's
identity. Stop this talk about banning Quran (ref.Babu Rambadran), this
constant bickering about "how backward Islam is" and concentrate on
solving the real problems of our countrymen (food, clothing,shelter,
jobs, healthcare, education) and the Muslim communalist leadership will
find themselves without a base.
: I would listen to them. Discuss with them. And if need be,
: drop my faith in verses of Gita, if it does not satisfy
: my notions of justice. It has happened amongst the Hindus
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: since times immemorial.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have had Muslim friends who sat down with me and ate pork. I have had
Muslim friends who told me that they were agnostics like me. How do you
know that some muslims are not dropping their faith in their holy book,
the Quran? What you fail to realise is that religion of birth has cultural
and nostalgic dimensions too. My friends may not be wearing their beliefs
on their sleeves because they may not want to hurt their near and dear
ones. I have taken beef but I would not say it in front of my grandmother
because she will be deeply hurt. Also note that in a riot my friends
would perish if caught by a Hindu mob and I would perish if caught by a
Muslim mob. Nobody would try to figure out our irreligious viewpoint.
That is the dangerous situation that the communal hate mongering leads
to. Lastly, I don't believe in the Quran. However, I see no reason why we
should be busybodies and demand that Muslims revise/edit their holy book
or that Muslims stop believing in it. Babu Rambadran has made such a
demand in the net. Such demands are fascist and it is high time that we
condemn such obnoxious demands categorically.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Sakhiny
PLEASE REPOST WIDELY
THANKS
SAKHI
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Full-time Position Available
Domestic Violence Program Coordinator
SEARCH REOPENED
Salary: Mid-20s with good benefits package
Start Date: September 9, 1996
ORGANIZATIONAL BACKGROUND:
Founded in 1989, Sakhi for South Asian Women is a non-profit
community organization based in New York City that works to end violence
against women of South Asian origin (Bangladeshi, Indian, Nepali,
Pakistani, and Sri Lankan). Our mission is to enable women to resist all
forms of violence and to create a voice for women, especially immigrant
and undocumented, both in the South Asian community and the larger United
States.
Currently, Sakhi operates in the following four program areas:
Domestic Violence, Domestic Workers, Literacy, and Policy, Organizing, and
Education (POE). Through a staff of three and a volunteer base of over
sixty, Sakhi provides individual advocacy to survivors of violence and
engages in community education and organizing campaigns in order to take
action against violence against women.
POSITION RESPONSIBILITIES:
The Domestic Violence Program Coordinator will be responsible for
facilitating our work with survivors of domestic violence as well as
providing direction and vision for this project. She will work closely
with other staff and volunteers, and under the supervision of the Program
Director and members of the Board. Her major responsibilities will
include:
* Coordinate volunteer advocates in providing effective
support for survivors of domestic violence.
* Organize monthly support groups for survivors of
domestic violence.
* Provide counseling for individual women who are
survivors of domestic violence.
* Help women access public assistance, safe housing,
social services, employment, and legal aid.
* Provide court interpretation and accompaniments.
* Answer Sakhi's Hotline and respond to crisis calls.
* Organize monthly clinics on matrimonial and immigration
law.
* Conduct presentations with other volunteers in advocacy
and community
organizing.
* Train new volunteers in advocacy and community
organizing.
* Network with other domestic violence organizations.
* Assist in administrative, fundraising, media, and other
Sakhi work as necessary.
REQUIRED QUALIFICATIONS:
* College degree and either a graduate degree or
significant work experience, preferably in the field of
direct advocacy.
* Training and/or experience in counseling.
* Understanding of issues concerning violence against
women.
* Excellent interpersonal skills.
* Strong communication and organizational skills.
* Conversational fluency in one or more South Asian
languages, preferably Hindi/Urdu and/or Bengali.
* Ability to work flexible hours which include some
evenings and weekends.
* Ability to work well under pressure.
* Computer literacy.
APPLICATION DEADLINE: FRIDAY, AUGUST 9, 1996.
Please send cover letter, resume, writing sample, and three references to:
Search Committee
Domestic Violence Program
Sakhi for South Asian Women
PO Box 20208, Greeley Square Station
New York, NY, 10001
No phone calls or faxes, please.
* Sakhi encourages applications from all women of South Asian origin,
including Pakistan,
Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, India and the South Asian diaspora,
including Guyana,
the Carribean, Africa, and Britain.
*************************DW POSITION**********************************
Full-time Position Available
Domestic Workers Program Coordinator
Salary: Mid-20s with good benefits package
Start Date: September 9, 1996
ORGANIZATIONAL BACKGROUND:
Founded in 1989, Sakhi for South Asian Women is a non-profit
community organization based in New York City that works to end violence
against women of South Asian origin (Bangladeshi, Indian, Nepali,
Pakistani, and Sri Lankan). Our mission is to enable women to resist all
forms of violence and to create a voice for women, especially immigrant
and undocumented, both in the South Asian community and the larger United
States.
Currently, Sakhi operates in the following four program areas:
Domestic Violence, Domestic Workers, Literacy, and Policy, Organizing, and
Education (POE). Through a staff of three and a volunteer base of over
sixty, Sakhi provides individual advocacy to survivors of violence and
engages in community education and organizing campaigns in order to combat
violence against women.
POSITION RESPONSIBILITIES:
The Domestic Workers Program Coordinator will be responsible for
facilitating our work with exploited domestic workers as well as providing
direction and vision for this project. She will work closely with other
staff and volunteers, and under the supervision of the Program Director
and members of the Board. Her major responsibilities will include:
* Coordinate monthly meetings of the Domestic Workers
Committee.
* Undertake aggressive outreach campaigns to domestic
workers and employers in the community.
* Conduct presentations and community outreach with other
volunteers on the working conditions of domestic workers
at various public forums.
* Facilitate collective advocacy for workers who have
questions and/or need assistance with demanding backwages,
property, etc. from current or ex- employers.
* Organize periodic trainings for domestic workers to
learn their rights as immigrant women workers.
* Strategize new ways of mobilizing and organizing
domestic workers in the South Asian community.
* Advocate for the rights of domestic workers through
active participation in labor organizing coalitions.
* Network with other groups organizing exploited labor,
particularly immigrant women workers.
* Assist in administrative, fundraising, media, and other
Sakhi work as necessary.
REQUIRED QUALIFICATIONS:
* College degree and either a graduate degree or
significant work experience, preferably in the field of
labor issues.
* Understanding of issues concerning violence against
women and class exploitation.
* Excellent interpersonal skills.
* Strong communication and organizational skills.
* Conversational fluency in one or more South Asian
languages, preferably Hindi/Urdu and/or Bengali.
* Ability to work flexible hours which include some
evenings and weekends.
* Ability to work well under pressure.
* Computer literacy.
Organizing experience a plus.
APPLICATION DEADLINE: FRIDAY, AUGUST 9, 1996.
Please send cover letter, resume, writing sample, and three references to:
Search Committee
Domestic Workers Program
Sakhi for South Asian Women
PO Box 20208, Greeley Square Station
New York, NY, 10001
No phone calls or faxes, please.
* Sakhi encourages applications from all women of South Asian origin,
including Pakistan,
Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, India and the South Asian diaspora,
including Guyana,
the Carribean, Africa, and Britain.