Tagore's first poem
Apratim Sarkar
sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: >Anekei pathyobishoyer baire kobita poRen na. Sheta tNader byektigoto
: >ruchi, amra amader bichar chapiye dite parina tar opor. Kintu kobita
: >poRbar ebong upobhog korbar jonyo je ekti shocheton, deergho, porisromi
: >onusheelon o obhaysh laage, eite maante chan na aneke.
: This is an interesting issue. Recall that Shakespeare's plays,
: which certainly rank among the greatest, richest and most complex
: poetry written in the world, were tremendously popular in his day
: _among all sections of society_. Similarly, in our own language,
: Krittibas and Kashiram, and the Mangalkabyos, some of which are
: very great poetry, were tremendously popular among the masses. Thus, it
: is not a universal rule that some kind of special training or skill
: is always needed to appreciate great poetry.
: The interesting thing is that the dissociation between high poetry
: and mass culture which Shoumyo hints at, is a post- industrial revolution
: phenomenon, i.e. a characteristic of the modern era. This dissociation
: did not exist in the past.
Kashchita kanta birahaguruna'r popurality sammondhe kichhu data
dite paro Sayan? Dyakho mama, content'ta bhebe dyakho. Tumi
jegulo'r kotha bolle, shegulo exisiting gappo lok'r mukhe mukhe
firto (Bangla example'gulo'r kotha bolchhi). Tar opor language'e
marpNyach, achhe jodiyo, kintu sheta court langugae (so to say)
noy. Ekhon Sudhin Datta (dharo) KrishnachuRa nishedhe matha naRe,
kulay khNoje shuk e shob bolte shuru korle at the miniumum gNyat'r
poisa kharcha kore ekta obhidhan kinte hobe, tar por na content,
identification. Ar kothakar ke suicide korlo na korlo na tai niye
o paRa'r pNachu;r ki chhNeRa gyalo mairi, je she kattik'r jyotsna'r
raat'e pNyacha'r shonge bhat marte jabe? Tar theke Jyoti Bane Jwala
onek relevant ebong interesting.
Shala java'te program likhte gele minimum manual'ta poRte hoy, ar
kobita poRte gelei noy? Naki kobita'ta'o point-and-click kore dite
hobe (tumi claim korchho ek kale tai chhilo, right?)?
: It is a consequence of the fragmentation
: and breakdown of the organic cohesion of society which used to exist in
: the premodern era, which happens with the changeover from non-alienated
: (in the marxist sense) to alienated modes of economic production and
: its consequent social changes.
Na mama, court literature ageo chhilo, ekhono achhe. Lok'e ghore
ghore KumarShambhab aoRato, na, Gupta period'e? O'i ek Shekkhopeor
dekhiye ar kodin cholbe?
: -Sayan.
Apratim.
sayan bhattacharyya
In article <5jhi77$5...@news.bu.edu>, Apratim Sarkar <asa...@cs.bu.edu> wrote:
> O'i ek Shekkhopeor
> dekhiye ar kodin cholbe?
You forget that Shoumyo made a _universal_ claim (which I was
contesting). He said that the distinction between high art and
mass culture had _always_ ("sobsomoye") existed.
To disprove a universal claim, even one counterexample suffices.
sayan bhattacharyya
In article <5jil2i$k...@news.bu.edu>, Apratim Sarkar <asa...@cs.bu.edu> wrote:
>
> 20'th century'te antoto, kobita chirodin'i swalpopothito. I think
> poets should thank their stars for that. Bhebe dekhun, roj bikele
> jyamon harmonium bajiye paRa'te paRa'te (antoto Kalighat'e) besuro
> gan shadha na chaite sunte paowa jai, tyamon jodi birodorpe 'Tomar
> jogyo gaan birochibo bole' shunte hoto? Ki balo Tathagata?
It is worth remembering that in the former Soviet Union, a poet like
Yevgeny Yevtushenko used to fill an entire football stadium whenever he
gave a reading (and he was a poet with dissident sympathies, so he
certainly did not have the official state apparatus working for him to
mobilize or bus people a la Brigade Parade Ground rallies!). In many
cases, the entire audience of 80,000+ people would chant along with him,
so popular were his poems. (I have this on the authority of people who
actually attended such readings).
Recently, the dissident Indonesian poet Gunewan Mohammed came to our
campus. He was also telling us about the astonishing popularity of
poetry among the young people in Indonesia, and especially of those
dissident poets who speak Truth to Power.
Thus, it seems that poetry _is_ popular in societies where dictatorships
throttle free expression (such as in the xUSSR and Indonesia). Why is
this so? I think this is because of the fact that, as poets speak in
metaphor and through allusion, they can say a lot of things that could
not be said openly in an unfree society (although for which they sometimes
pay with their life, as did Mandelstam, who was executed by Stalin). Thus,
poets in an unfree society act as a collective voice of the people,
articulating the normally unspeakable thoughts of the people, and are therefore
tremendously popular.
In this context, one also has to remember the
great popularity of Faiz Ahmed Faiz in Pakistan in the years of
military rule when he was imprisoned, exiled, and even for a time under
sentence of death.
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Apratim Sarkar wrote:
'Aro kobita poRun' e'i movement kobe shuru
> hoyechhilo, 40's-50's'e? Jara korechhilen tara (amar antoto) baba'r
> boyeshi.
:))) Pitribonoyer bhar tomar na boileo cholbe Apra!
Hey Pathok, ebarer ekti Pujor Little magazine-e kobi Aloke Sarkar
(amader Apra-r pita) -er ekti romanchokor smriticharon poRlam. Chollish
ar Ponchasher shei shomoye oi koyekjon torun (jNara pore oshamanyo shob
lekha upohar diye jaben amader) tokhon ei "Aro Kobita PoRun" anodolon
kibhabe toiri korlen, kibhabe goRe uthlo shamoyik holeo
protibha-shomponno ekti obhyash, tar chomothkar biboroN aachche
shekhane. Kobir Obhipray boite Shankha Ghosh-o janiyechchen shei ayk-i
golpo.
> Bhebe dekhun, roj bikele
> jyamon harmonium bajiye paRa'te paRa'te (antoto Kalighat'e) besuro
> gan shadha na chaite sunte paowa jai, tyamon jodi birodorpe 'Tomar
> jogyo gaan birochibo bole' shunte hoto? Ki balo Tathagata?
>
She boRo shukher shomoy (noy), she boRo anonder shomoy (noy)...
Tobe oirokom arekti anonder obhigyotar golpo boli. Bochchor doshek aage,
bus-tram-er bhaRa bridhdhir protibaad-e SUCI College Street moRh-e boshe
poRlo. Rasta bondho. Ami 215 nombor bus-e boshe apekhkha korchchi kokhon
jaanjot kete jabe. Hothat chardik theke Pulish chhute elo, prohare
biporjosto jonota (SUCI ebong dorshok) chchinnobhinno hoye chhitke poRlo
chardike.
Anmona bhabei amar mukh theke beriye elo : "Shohor taar buker theke
khule niyechche Dhaal" . Amake shompuRno hotochokito kore diye shamner
'kata seat'-e upobishto doshta pNachtar
tiffin-baksho-o-choter-thole-haate-daRi-na-kamano-koronik bole uthlen:
"Orokhkhito jekono dike chchutechche manushera". Phireo takalen na amar
bishmito mukher dike. Khanik baade, porom oudashye neme poRlen bus
theke. Ekta mosto bhul dharoNa bhongo holo shedin.
(Udhdhrito kobitar Line duti Shankha Ghosh-er).
> : Ekhaney proshno ei jey, robindroshongiter prodhan akorshon ki tar
> : kothai na shurey?
>
> Amar to mone hoy biye'r bajare tar dam'e. Jodiyo, Najrulgiti ar
> semi-classical onek'ta bajar niye niyechhe. But, this remains a
> growth sector.
>
:))))
> : >TNarai jokhon bolen je "kobitar bujhte parina kichchu", (bishesh kore
> : >"adhunik kobita"), tokhon obak laage. Tahole ki tNara Rabindranather
> : >shob kobita bojhen, Biharilal-er ? Madhusudan ? Amra to bhoy pai ekotha
> : >bolte!
>
> RT'ke bodhhoy adhunik kobita'r modhyei dhora uchit. In fact ami
> MMD'ke'o dhorbo. Na bojha to ekanto anonder kotha Tathagata. RS
> shobai bojhe, tai bolei na Asha BhNoshle eshe geye jan.
>
Thik.
> Songoskriti'o jai ni, kobita'o moreni. Nirmal Haldar, Goutam Basu,
> Anirban, Apabrita, Shomit Mandal ... shobai likhchhen.
Aro: Goutom Choudhuri, Prosun Bandopadhyay, Ekram Ali, Rahul
Purokayostho, Bishwonath GoRai, Biman Mahato...
> Abashyo'i
> financially help korte parle koyekta little magazine arektu
> regularly beroy. E byapar'e utsahi keu achhen ki? Tahole e byapare
> ekti potrika'r kotha likhtam.
>
Dorga Road ? Aachchi.
Tomar nijer kono porikolpona ? Amake na nile londobhondo kore debo shob!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...Sroter bolkole dhaka prodeepdrishyer pichchu pichchu
Nrityer bhongima matro jege thake, ar thake ophuronto dheu
Bhasha, shudhu bhashai niyoti"
- NODIKOTHA, Goutom Choudhuri
Suddhasatta Acharyya
On 20 Apr 1997 mbho...@aardvark.ou.edu wrote:
> >
>
> If it is not too irrelevant, is it true that the first
> published work by Tagore was not a poem but a
> short story ? The short story, 'Bhikhareeni' was published
> around 1877 when Tagore was only 16.
> It is also curious that his last known piece of writing is
> another short story, 'Musalmanir Golpo'--written
> only weeks before his death in 1941. The story
> was first published some 15 years after his death.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
> Bilayet Hossain.
>
Tagore 's last piece of writing ,as far as I know
was the poem "tomar shrishti r poth rekhecho akirno kori
bichitro chholonajale hey chholonamoyee"
It was dictated by the poet days before his death.
-Suddhasatta Acharyya
dept. of statistics and probability
univ. of california,santa barbara
"A pun a day keeps melancholy away"
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:16:06 -0700, Shoumyo Dasgupta
<txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>Siddhartha Duttagupta wrote:
>
>Chot kore bolo dekhi, chottami na kore, "Mor Bina othe kon shure baaji"
Polpular gan niyey question korata thik hoi ni!
mor bina uthey kon shurey baji
kon nobo choncholo chondey
momo ontoro kompito aji
nikhilero hridoyospondey
ashey kon toruno oshanto
urey boshonancholo pranto
alokero nrittey bonanto
mukhorito odhiro anondey
omboro prangono majhey
nishoro monjiro gunjey
osruto shei taley taley
korotali pollobo punjey
kar podo poroshono asha
triney triney orpilo bhasha
shomirono bondhono hara
unmono kon bono gondhey
>>
>> Kobitar kotha boltey parina, godyoshahityer standard money hoi porey
>> gechey.
>
>Bhishon shadharonikrito (generalized ?) montobyo na eta ? Ki kore boli e
>katha? Oboshyo naam bolbo na karo, bollei bipod.
>
Keno nam boltey ki achey? Flames ashbey ashuk na! Asholey amar bola
uchit chilo jey "amar money hoi jey std. porey gechey".
To avoid specific A>B, ami shudhu etai bolbo jey amar motey ajkaler
odhikangsho lekhok du-ekta bhalo lekha likhei tarpor shudhu tnader nam
bhangiye khan. Ekaler dikpal shahityik (sic) jemon Samaresh Majumdar,
Shirshendu, Sunil, Sanjib Chattopadhyay (yes the A.Sen/Hadley Chase
guy) eder signal-to-noise ratio eto poor keno? Manlam pujo barshikir
chapey 12 novels/year -er jonyo noise barchey kintu ekta lifetime
achievement-er byaparoto achey naki? Rabindranath ekbari bangalider
bhagyey jutbey eta mantey raji achi, kintu how about another bibhuti
bannerjee?
>Shorkar theke poysha pele ki shahityer shubidha hoto khub ? Tomar ki
>mone hoy ? Nettor-ra ki bolen ?
>
Shorkar-er taka na deoai bhalo, edeshey NEA-r ja hal, ekta no-win
situation hoyey jai. Oboshyo bangali protishthaney politics thakbeyna
eta chintao kora jai na. Money hoi local level-ey kichu kortey parlei
shobcheyey bhalo. Esho bhai, jey jar mother-town key support koro!
Edeshey to hoi, citizens group korey library/symphony ityadi support
korey.
Standard disclaimer deoar ichhey chilo kintu etogulo lagbey jey
(parashuram-er bhushandir mathey bhuteder dialogue-ey chondrobindur
moto) apnara kindly boshiyey neben!
regards, siddhartha
sayan bhattacharyya
In article <5jhi77$5...@news.bu.edu>, Apratim Sarkar <asa...@cs.bu.edu> wrote:
>
> Shala java'te program likhte gele minimum manual'ta poRte hoy, ar
> kobita poRte gelei noy? Naki kobita'ta'o point-and-click kore dite
> hobe (tumi claim korchho ek kale tai chhilo, right?)?
There is some confusion here. While some human activities certainly
require specialized training (such as java programming, to take your
example), certain human activities do not. For example: learning to
speak one's first language. No one "taught" you or me how to speak Bengali.
We "acquired" it through a process of socialization. Similarly, one
acquire the social codes of one's society (such as body language) through
a socialization process, not through explicit instruction or self-instruction.
In your statement above, you are making an implicit assumption: namely,
that appreciating poetry is _always_ a skill more like programming java than
like speaking one's first language. This is the assumption I am contesting.
While I certainly agree that in _present-day society_ appreciating poetry
is not a skill one acquires through socialization, it seems to me that
the existence of counterexamples of societies from the past where this was
the case shows that this is not a _universal_ condition of human existence
as you make it out to be.
para...@mpd.tandem.com
In article <5jil2i$k...@news.bu.edu>,
asa...@cs.bu.edu (Apratim Sarkar) wrote:
>
> Siddhartha Duttagupta (pra...@galaxy.ee.rochester.edu) wrote:
>
> : Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
> : >
> : >para...@mpd.tandem.com wrote:
> : >
> : >> kobita-gulo-r shei aabedaun ki ache
> : ektu-o akhonkaar pathok-er kachhe?
>
> More importantly, konodin chhilo ki? Not RT'r kobita in particular,
> kobita in general. 'Aro kobita poRun' e'i movement kobe shuru
> hoyechhilo, 40's-50's'e? Jara korechhilen tara (amar antoto) baba'r
Idaaning trend shuru hoyechhe bangla kobita-ke shur diye
gaaibaar. Bangla kobita-r jaunopriyota-ke gaaner opor bhaur
diye dNaDano uchit na, kintu ghaure ghaure lokjon "Benimadhob"
gungun korchhe! Sriradha Bandyopadhyay-er gaulaay Shakti-r
gaaner ekti cassette shona gyalo(hNya, Shakti gaan hishebe-i
likhechhilen, akashbaani kaulom chalate cheyechhilo bole taukhon
berote dyan di), Joy-er kobita-y shur diye, tachhaDa Lopamudra
to besh jaunopriyo ghaure ghaure - NirendraNath, Subhash
Mukhujje, Shakti, Joy, Shankha Ghosh - eNder kobitay shur
diye gayoa. At least poshchimbangla-r chhoto chhoto
mauphoshwaul-er dokaan-gulo-te shaub shomoy available thaakaar
mauto jaunopriyota aurjon korechhe. Kharap ki!
>
> 20'th century'te antoto, kobita chirodin'i swalpopothito. I think
> poets should thank their stars for that. Bhebe dekhun, roj bikele
> jyamon harmonium bajiye paRa'te paRa'te (antoto Kalighat'e) besuro
> gan shadha na chaite sunte paowa jai, tyamon jodi birodorpe 'Tomar
> jogyo gaan birochibo bole' shunte hoto? Ki balo Tathagata?
Ki hoto ta'le?
>
> Amar to mone hoy biye'r bajare tar dam'e. Jodiyo, Najrulgiti ar
> semi-classical onek'ta bajar niye niyechhe. But, this remains a
> growth sector.
>
Amar to mone hoy biyer bajaare "tomaari aaNKhir mauto akasher
duti taara" ityadi-ke RS kaukhono beat-te paareni.
>
> Songoskriti'o jai ni, kobita'o moreni. Nirmal Haldar, Goutam Basu,
> Anirban, Apabrita, Shomit Mandal ... shobai likhchhen. Abashyo'i
> financially help korte parle koyekta little magazine arektu
> regularly beroy. E byapar'e utsahi keu achhen ki? Tahole e byapare
> ekti potrika'r kotha likhtam.
Bolun na, kaan pete aachhi.
- Paramita
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
sayan bhattacharyya
Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>
>I categorically disagree with your claim. Please give us some references
>to substantiate your claim.
>
>A claim that "good" poetry, deep and mystic, that portrays and reflects
>the complex and the unfathomable depths of time, has been appreciated by
>_everyone_ in the society without _any_ training whatsoever.
Homer's poetry in ancient Greece. See the section "Search for the
True Homer" in "The New Science" by Giambattista Vico, translated by
Bergin and Fisch. Vico reports that in Homeric Greece, every Greek town
had story-tellers/narrators who would recite the Homeric epics in the
town square and everyone in the town would come to listen. These epics
formed a fabric of Greek life.
I also gave the example of Shakespeare being appreciated by
every section in Elizabethan society, in my earlier posting. See
Tillyard's book "The Elizabethan World View" for references.
Samir Bhattacharya
Paramita Das wrote:
> s...@hogpa.att.com (Samir Bhattacharya) wrote:
..
>> mone hoyechhilo, sherom shomosto bangali-jonota'r RT'r opor agroher
>> opor hoye thake to ... kono citation index-er onukorone jodi
>> "recitation index" thakto, ta'le bola jeto. Rabindra-jayanti'r
>> popularity ki kome jachhe?
> Recitation Index-ta define kore din, ekkhuni vote diye
> dichchhi.
na, recitaion index-e vote deowa jayna; aykta tick mark deben RT'r
ghore jokhoni RT'r kobita poDben. Sherom bhabe onyo kobirao nijeder
khop-e tick mark paben jokhon apni, ba je-keu-i tNader kobita poDben.
Tarpor tally kore dekha RT'r fraction-ta koto. Ei ar ki! Adom-shumari
akhoni shuru korte hobe koyek bochhor pore ei proshno jokhon abar
uThbe, tar jonye.
>> Ar aykta jinish interesting hobe jante parle. Ajkaal
>> pNocheeshe-boishaakh fungshaane je kobita-gulo beshi shona jay,
>> tate-ki noirashyobaad, omongol-bodh, ityadi "adhunik angik" beshi
>> dekhte paoa jay aagekar popular kobita-gulor cheye?
> KhNoj nebaar eta-i prokrishto shomoy, kobipokkho shuru
> holo bole.
Besh kichhu bochhor age hole bole ditum je, Bishwa-kobi,
Kobiguru...... amon-ki Kobiraj :) RT'r "Africa" jite jeto! Akhon ki
Nabajatok-er "Proshno" kobita-ta tar cheye beshi recited hobe? Shetai
proshno?
Samir
> - Paramita
sayan bhattacharyya
> Dyakho mama, content'ta bhebe dyakho. Tumi
> jegulo'r kotha bolle, shegulo exisiting gappo lok'r mukhe mukhe
> firto (Bangla example'gulo'r kotha bolchhi). Tar opor language'e
> marpNyach, achhe jodiyo, kintu sheta court langugae (so to say)
> noy. Ekhon Sudhin Datta (dharo) KrishnachuRa nishedhe matha naRe,
> kulay khNoje shuk e shob bolte shuru korle at the miniumum gNyat'r
> poisa kharcha kore ekta obhidhan kinte hobe, tar por na content,
> identification. Ar kothakar ke suicide korlo na korlo na tai niye
> o paRa'r pNachu;r ki chhNeRa gyalo mairi, je she kattik'r jyotsna'r
> raat'e pNyacha'r shonge bhat marte jabe? Tar theke Jyoti Bane Jwala
> onek relevant ebong interesting.
That's my point exactly. Read again what I wrote below :
>: It is a consequence of the fragmentation
>: and breakdown of the organic cohesion of society which used to exist in
>: the premodern era, which happens with the changeover from non-alienated
>: (in the marxist sense) to alienated modes of economic production and
>: its consequent social changes.
In the premodern "mongolkabyo" era society was cohesive -- the "existing goppo
mukhe mukhe phirto" that was also the theme of literature. There was
a narrow but shared referential world that writer and reader/hearer
had in common. With the rise of industrial production society inevitably
fragments, because the modern inventions made possible by technology
widen the world of reference and the assumption of universal commonality
of interest between reader and writer cannot be counted on any more. Poetry
necessarily retreats from a social function to a more private function as
a consequence. (Again, note that I am not saying if this is a good thing
or a bad thing -- I am just saying that this happens).
> Na mama, court literature ageo chhilo, ekhono achhe. Lok'e ghore
> ghore KumarShambhab aoRato, na, Gupta period'e?
Those who knew Sanskrit probably did. Of course we can't know with 100%
certainty, bit there is circumstantial evidence that this was the case.
What circumstantial evidence? The fact that, in Kuttiyattam,
a ritual folk theater still performed in the southern Indian state of
Kerala, parts of classical sanskrit plays continued to be a traditional
part of the repertoire right until modern times (this information
is from the book `Indian Theater : Traditions of Performance', by Farley
P. Richmond, Darius L. Swann & Phillip B. Zarrilli, University of Hawaii
Press, 1990).
If the oeuvre of the Sanskrit dramatists did not have a popular following,
how on earth do you explain the fact that their works made their way
into _folk_ theater ??
-Sayan.
Sambit Basu
asa...@cs.bu.edu (Apratim Sarkar) writes:
> Shala java'te program likhte gele minimum manual'ta poRte hoy, ar
> kobita poRte gelei noy?
Kobita likhte gele manual poDte hobe, erokom akta
kotha tumi shei SCI-er jug-e bolechhile bote - sheta-ke
akhon kobita poDa-te-o tene anchho? Chhandoshik aar
Boiyakoron chhaDa keu kobita likhbe to nai-i,
poDbe-o na?
This is irrespective of what Sayan is saying (Columbus-er
jolobayu khub bishakto).
Sambit
Kalpataru Barman
Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
>
> para...@mpd.tandem.com wrote:
>
> > Proshongauto, Rabindranath-er kobita ki kromosho aupaankteyo hoye
> > poDchhe bole money hoy aapnaader? RabindraSangeet jebhaabe aaj-o
> > aapaamorjaunota-ke chNuye jaay, kobita-gulo-r shei aabedaun ki
> > aachhe ektu-o akhonkaar pathok-er kachhe?
>
> Kobita shobshomoyei bodhoy kom "jonopriyota" peyechche, gaan-er >tulonay,....
Sudhu Rabindanth-er kabita noi, osob kabita-tabita byapaar tai
apangteo hoye porchhey. Baap maa-ra ghaar dhoorey ekta "Africa"
baa "Prosno" mukhostho korachhen bachcha-ke diye.
Hmm... mukhostho koro baba, ekta medal anoto chaand ! Osob Rabindranth
bujhte hobey naa, borong Das Mukherjee-r Calculas ta bhaalo kore
karo.
Apratim Sarkar
sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: In article <5jhi77$5...@news.bu.edu>, Apratim Sarkar <asa...@cs.bu.edu> wrote:
: > Dyakho mama, content'ta bhebe dyakho. Tumi
: > jegulo'r kotha bolle, shegulo exisiting gappo lok'r mukhe mukhe
: > firto (Bangla example'gulo'r kotha bolchhi). Tar opor language'e
: > marpNyach, achhe jodiyo, kintu sheta court langugae (so to say)
: > noy. Ekhon Sudhin Datta (dharo) KrishnachuRa nishedhe matha naRe,
: > kulay khNoje shuk e shob bolte shuru korle at the miniumum gNyat'r
: > poisa kharcha kore ekta obhidhan kinte hobe, tar por na content,
: > identification. Ar kothakar ke suicide korlo na korlo na tai niye
: > o paRa'r pNachu;r ki chhNeRa gyalo mairi, je she kattik'r jyotsna'r
: > raat'e pNyacha'r shonge bhat marte jabe? Tar theke Jyoti Bane Jwala
: > onek relevant ebong interesting.
: That's my point exactly. Read again what I wrote below :
: >: It is a consequence of the fragmentation
: >: and breakdown of the organic cohesion of society which used to exist in
: >: the premodern era, which happens with the changeover from non-alienated
: >: (in the marxist sense) to alienated modes of economic production and
: >: its consequent social changes.
: In the premodern "mongolkabyo" era society was cohesive --
Society cohesive, omni bole dile? Feudal age cholchhe takhon, ar
society choesive hoye gyalo? Jekhane information dissipation ekanto
limited, raja-rajRa'ra ki poRchhen na poRchhen chashi'r sheta
jana'r chance nei, ar society cohesive hoye gyalo? Even ek gram'r
khabor onno gram pai na, lok'e dyakhe hoito shara jibon'e pNachsho
lok, society cohesive ki kore hoy? Naki tumi individual gram'ke
individual society bole dhorchho, puro Bangla Sahitye'r shomaj'ke
na? Mone rekho, Momgol Kabya was however not a local phenomenon,
ta je society'ke address korechhilo ta puro Bangla shomaj, jar
modhye wide socio-economic spectrum achhe.
Cohesive'r define karo to. Tarpor with examples bojhao kyano cohesive.
: the "existing goppo
: mukhe mukhe phirto" that was also the theme of literature. There was
: a narrow but shared referential world that writer and reader/hearer
: had in common. With the rise of industrial production society inevitably
: fragments, because the modern inventions made possible by technology
: widen the world of reference and the assumption of universal commonality
: of interest between reader and writer cannot be counted on any more.
Universal'r proyojon kothay? Besides, Momgol Kabyer universal
appeal achhe ki? Anyway, re the shared interest domain,
counterexample, Bibhutibabu. Pather PNachali, Anubartan, etc.
How is it that ChNad Shodagor'r goppo comes from a more shared
referential world (considering the average economically backward
readership) than that of the story of Apurba Kumar Roy? Ar BBB'r
lekha'r shonge modern invention, technology, eshob'r shangjog ki,
chapakhana chhaRa? Tobe ki chhapakhana tule diye kathokata korlei
lok'e Anubartan beshi appreciate korto?
: Poetry
: necessarily retreats from a social function to a more private function as
: a consequence. (Again, note that I am not saying if this is a good thing
: or a bad thing -- I am just saying that this happens).
Tobe Kalidas Meghdut likhlen kyano Gupta period'e boshe? Meghdut'r
social function ki chhilo?
: > Na mama, court literature ageo chhilo, ekhono achhe. Lok'e ghore
: > ghore KumarShambhab aoRato, na, Gupta period'e?
: Those who knew Sanskrit probably did.
Probably did!? Any, _any_, references here, Sayan? BTW, Sanskrit
janto kato percent? Bakider kachhe Sudhin Datt'r bhasha jyamon
average Bangali'r kachhe durbodhyo, Sanskrit ki temni'i durbodhyo
chhilo na?
: Of course we can't know with 100%
: certainty, bit there is circumstantial evidence that this was the case.
: What circumstantial evidence? The fact that, in Kuttiyattam,
: a ritual folk theater still performed in the southern Indian state of
: Kerala, parts of classical sanskrit plays continued to be a traditional
: part of the repertoire right until modern times (this information
: is from the book `Indian Theater : Traditions of Performance', by Farley
: P. Richmond, Darius L. Swann & Phillip B. Zarrilli, University of Hawaii
: Press, 1990).
: If the oeuvre of the Sanskrit dramatists did not have a popular following,
: how on earth do you explain the fact that their works made their way
: into _folk_ theater ??
Ayakta isolated example diye to shob proman hoy, edike gota North
India'te, and in particular East India'te (Gupta dynasty'r map'ta
mone achhe to?) je folk culture'e Sanskrit drama'r atyanto limited
influence sheta ignore korlei holo. Anyway, Gupta dynasty'r
itihas'e amake antoto ekta example dyakhao reputed itihas boi theke
je Sanskrit drama had popular following (jekhane lok'e bhasha'i
generally bujhto na). Prochur lok'ke bolte shunechhi Sudhin Datta
poRte gele bhasha shakto lage (amaro lage). Sanskrit na jene public
in general ki kore Kalidas poRto jante agrohi.
: -Sayan.
Apratim.
sayan bhattacharyya
In article <5jnvv1$b...@news.bu.edu>, Apratim Sarkar <asa...@cs.bu.edu> wrote:
>: >
>: > There is some confusion here. While some human activities certainly
>: > require specialized training (such as java programming, to take your
>: > example), certain human activities do not. For example: learning to
>: > speak one's first language. No one "taught" you or me how to speak Bengali.
>
> shikhiyechhen. School'e'o bohu ghoshe ghoshe.
>
>: > We "acquired" it through a process of socialization.
>
> Briddho baal, mairi, Sayan, Bornoporichoy ar Sahoj Path'r kotha'ta,
> at the minimum, bemalum bhule gele?
I am talking about SPEECH, Apratim, not about WRITING! We (those of us
who are native speakers of Bengali) learnt the alphabet and writing from
Sahoj Path and Bornoporichoy. But surely we were able to speak Bengali
without such aids?? Indeed, weren't you already speaking Bengali fluently
by the time you got to Sohoj Path ?
Writing is a fairly recent invention in human history. People have
always acquired their first language throughout history without
being explicitly trained or taught. I am surprised that you are
questioning this!
sayan bhattacharyya
>: sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>: > it seems to me that
>: > the existence of counterexamples of societies from the past where this was
>: > the case shows that this is not a _universal_ condition of human existence
>: > as you make it out to be.
>
> Fer amar mukhe kotha boshachchho. Universal ami kothay bollam?
^^^
ja-bbaba, tumi ki kheye post korchho bolo to? ami to uttor dichchhilam
Shoumyo-r posting-er, so naturally the "you" referred to Shoumyo! Tumi
omni dhore nile je "tomar" mukhe kotha bosano hochchhe?!
naki sorbo-bhoote nijeke dekhte shuru korechho ? :-)
sayan bhattacharyya
> 20'th century'te antoto, kobita chirodin'i swalpopothito. I think
> poets should thank their stars for that.
"Thank their stars for that" ?? Why?
When people write/communicate anything, a natural desire is that
it be read by as many people as possible.
When you have poetry confined to a small, elitist circle, with you
only reading the work of other poets and with your own work being
read by the same other poets only, then the whole thing quickly
degenerates into a mutual admiration society. Not a healthy situation.
Apratim Sarkar
Indranil (dgu...@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:
: Apratim Sarkar (asa...@cs.bu.edu) wrote:
: : Indranil (dgu...@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:
: : : Abar bhebe dakho, onar puro bandil-tai tumi aj jake "decadent burgeois
: : : literature" bolle, tai. Erokom double standard niye ki kore bNachbe?
: : : Tomader moto foto leftist-der jonyo shala aj puro leftist movement-ta
: : : jhNajhra hoye gachhe. Britain-e ponchash bochhor dhore Conservative-ra
: : : jite jay.
: : I disagree. Leftist movement'ke aj jodi keu bNachiye rakhte pare to
: : Tony B.'r moto leftist'ra (i.e. chakri pele Sayan ja hobe).
: Tony B -ke chini na, tobe ami bolte chaichhilam je Sayan sharajibone
: kota lokke right wing baniyechhe sheta jodi ekbar bhabo tahole shala hat
: fat uthe jabe bhoy hoy. Oboshyo scb-te Sayan eka noy.
Nachi ar Supratik achhe jyamon Hindu right wing'r haat theke
SCB'ke bNachano'r jonyo. Ja hok at least kono kaaj'e to lagchhe.
: Jai-hok, tumi take over kore nichchho? Tahole ami time off nebo.
Na amakeo jete hobe. Tumi lobh na dekhale ashtam na. Followup kora
bandho na korle Sayan'ke line'e rakha khub mushkil.
: IDG
Apratim.
Samir Bhattacharya
Sayan B. wrote:
...
>he eventually wrote his master work. My own ancestors came to Bengal from
>as far away as Kanauj in the 12th/13th centuries.
...
Amar aykta proshno achhe? Ei koulinyo protha-ki banglate kichhuta jor
ba plan kore, baire theke lok amdani kore boshano hoyechhilo? Kara
korechhilen? Tar age ta'le shomaaj-ta kyamon chhilo? Kulin kara?
Samir
Apratim Sarkar
Shoumyo Dasgupta (txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu) wrote:
: sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
: >
: > In article <5jhi77$5...@news.bu.edu>, Apratim Sarkar <asa...@cs.bu.edu> wrote:
: > >
: > > Shala java'te program likhte gele minimum manual'ta poRte hoy, ar
: > > kobita poRte gelei noy? Naki kobita'ta'o point-and-click kore dite
: > > hobe (tumi claim korchho ek kale tai chhilo, right?)?
: >
: > There is some confusion here. While some human activities certainly
: > require specialized training (such as java programming, to take your
: > example), certain human activities do not. For example: learning to
: > speak one's first language. No one "taught" you or me how to speak Bengali.
Tumi mohapurush, tobe amake amar Ma bohu porishrom kore Bangla
shikhiyechhen. School'e'o bohu ghoshe ghoshe.
: > We "acquired" it through a process of socialization.
Briddho baal, mairi, Sayan, Bornoporichoy ar Sahoj Path'r kotha'ta,
at the minimum, bemalum bhule gele? Language jana mane'ta ki, BTW?
Ekta definition debe? Tomar acceptance level'ta andaj korar chesta
korchhi.
: > Similarly, one
: > acquire the social codes of one's society (such as body language) through
: > a socialization process, not through explicit instruction or self-instruction.
Tar shonge in general kobita'r ki? Bhasha'r shonge na hoy ekta
link achhe, social code'r shonge in general kobita'r bindumatro
link khNuje pachchhi na.
: > In your statement above, you are making an implicit assumption: namely,
: > that appreciating poetry is _always_ a skill more like programming java than
: > like speaking one's first language. This is the assumption I am contesting.
Much more complex than programming in Java, really, IMO. And of
course even more than speaking one's first language. Ar always'ta
dhokale kyano? Tomar prachin jug theke unverifiable unsubstantiated
example dite subidhe hobe bole? Given that 'Who goes there? A
Granadier. What does he want? A bottle of beer.'o dibyo ekti
kobita, always je chole na sheta trivially true. Kintu tai bole
Bishnu Dey'r kobita bujhte training dorkar kintu kono kono kobita'r
jonyo training dorkar noy e niye pNochish pata lekha holo plain
dhya**ami, IMO.
: > While I certainly agree that in _present-day society_ appreciating poetry
: > is not a skill one acquires through socialization,
Go easy on the present-day society-bit, Sayan, jatokkhon na tumi
bojhate parchho Meghdut'r moto ekti extremely personal account jar
bhasha'i kobita'r ekta major portion, emon kobita appreciation
skills plain socialization'r modhye diye kibhabe ashto. Ar, na poRe
baaje boko na, jyamon tumi generally kore thako. Eta Mondragon noy,
as IDG would say.
: > it seems to me that
: > the existence of counterexamples of societies from the past where this was
: > the case shows that this is not a _universal_ condition of human existence
: > as you make it out to be.
Fer amar mukhe kotha boshachchho. Universal ami kothay bollam? Onek
kobita chorcha na korle bojha jabe na, period, etukui
bolechhi. Onek kobita hoy to jabe, kintu jegulo jabe jabe, jabe na,
kichhu korar nei, maap karo baba, age dyakho. Ebong adhunik Bangla
kobita'r ekta major section e'i dharon'r. Pathok either sheta'ke
appreciate korar jonyo poRashuno korte paren, noito Mongol Kabyo
appreciate korte gele to ayto khatte hoto na bole haat'e niye boshe
thakte paren. Kintu apadamostak chhagol na hole e niye keu ekta
issue banabe na.
: I categorically disagree with your claim. Please give us some references
: to substantiate your claim.
: A claim that "good" poetry, deep and mystic, that portrays and reflects
: the complex and the unfathomable depths of time, has been appreciated by
: _everyone_ in the society without _any_ training whatsoever.
: Please don't just give examples where poems are pseudo-political
: slogans.
: Poetry of most turbulent times have tended to be overloaded by
: ammunition, and while they temporarily 'touch' and instigate the
: feelings of everyone going through the same political ordeal, they
: mostly end up being meaningless with the evolution of time, IMO.
Agreed.
: Of course, there are exceptions. Nazim Hikmet, may be ?
: Shoumyo.
Apratim.
sayan bhattacharyya
In article <5jo27s$b...@news.bu.edu>, Apratim Sarkar <asa...@cs.bu.edu> wrote:
>
> Society cohesive, omni bole dile? Feudal age cholchhe takhon, ar
> society choesive hoye gyalo? Jekhane information dissipation ekanto
> limited,
Cohesive in the cultural sense.
Information dissemination limited bole-i to cohesive. There was a limited
and finite set of shared myths and social codes. Everyone knew what was
being talked about and referred to. The referential world was smaller and
more shared.
Mid-20th century-te Bishnu Dey bolchhen "jemon jenechhe Chandidas ba Dante"
-- referential world-Ta koto boRo hoye jachchhe lokshyo koro -- Dante ke
ebong Chandidas ke duToi na jana thakle tumi dhorte parbe na ki bola
hochchhe | kinti manasa-mongol-er kobi jokhon bolchhen "chyangMuRi kaanee"
tokhon (se-juger) abal-briddho-bonita bujhe jachchhe je the reference is
to the one-eyed ("kanee") Manasa.
> Even ek gram'r
> khabor onno gram pai na, lok'e dyakhe hoito shara jibon'e pNachsho
> lok, society cohesive ki kore hoy?
ami bangla sahityer itihas formally poRi ni. kintu jotodoor mone poRchhe
Mahasweta Devi-r lekha ekti boi-e poRechhilam he Kobikonkon Mukundaram
migrated a large distance from his ancestral village to the place where
he eventually wrote his master work. My own ancestors came to Bengal from
as far away as Kanauj in the 12th/13th centuries. People weren't as insular
as you think. People went on pilgrimages to holy places; the tradition of
traveling to "mela"-s like Joydeb's mela at Kenduli is many centuries old.
All these were occasions when people would meet each other. Many religious
sects such as auls and bauls were traditionally nomadic. Also, Bengal was
a major maritime trading power in the Indian Ocean in mediaeval times.
> Naki tumi individual gram'ke
> individual society bole dhorchho, puro Bangla Sahitye'r shomaj'ke
> na? Mone rekho, Momgol Kabya was however not a local phenomenon,
> ta je society'ke address korechhilo ta puro Bangla shomaj, jar
> modhye wide socio-economic spectrum achhe.
Exactly, which means that there WAS comunication between the villages.
Otherwise you would have gotten a different mongolkabyo (on a different
topic) for each different village. Heck, if villages were as closed off
as you seem to think, then each village would have developed a mutually
incomprehensible dialect of its own and adjoining villages wouldn't
understand each other! Since that did not happen, there WAS communication,
clearly.
>: With the rise of industrial production society inevitably
>: fragments, because the modern inventions made possible by technology
>: widen the world of reference and the assumption of universal commonality
>: of interest between reader and writer cannot be counted on any more.
>
> Universal'r proyojon kothay?
"Proyojon" bola matro-i to normative hoye gelo. ami age-i bolechhi
je I was not being normative or making value-judgements here.
> Besides, Momgol Kabyer universal
> appeal achhe ki?
Present tense byabohar korchho keno? Hochhe to oteeter kotha.
Note also I wasn't talking about "universal appeal", I was talking
about "universal commonality of interest between writer and reader".
What I meant was that in that age, the reader and writer inhabited
a common referential world. When a writer introduced a motif, he
could be reasonably sure that his audience would know what he was
talking about. This assumption doesn't hold in industrial society
any more as people inhabit many different worlds which do not
always overlap.
> Anyway, re the shared interest domain,
> counterexample, Bibhutibabu. Pather PNachali, Anubartan, etc.
Good example. Isn't it significant that Bibhuti Banerjee was writing
in a premodernist style (and in fact was consciously harking back to
an older tradition, as evidenced by his choice of the word "pNachali"?
> How is it that ChNad Shodagor'r goppo comes from a more shared
> referential world (considering the average economically backward
> readership)
I don't understand your question. What is it about CS that a shared
referential world would prevent from "coming" ?
>: > Na mama, court literature ageo chhilo, ekhono achhe. Lok'e ghore
>: > ghore KumarShambhab aoRato, na, Gupta period'e?
>
>: Those who knew Sanskrit probably did.
>
> Probably did!? Any, _any_, references here, Sayan?
No, just as you do not have any references for saying that they _didn't_,
either. Your claim is no less speculative.
BTW, Sanskrit
> janto kato percent? Bakider kachhe Sudhin Datt'r bhasha jyamon
> average Bangali'r kachhe durbodhyo, Sanskrit ki temni'i durbodhyo
> chhilo na?
Tar thekeo beshi durbodhyo chhilo in fact. But I don't see the
relevance of this. I never claimed that people who didn't know
Sanskrit read Sanskrit literature (that would be an absurd claim).
I don't think this discussion was about reading literature in a foreign
language? Similarly in Europe a lot of literature was written in Latin
which the common people could not read. No one was disputing that.
What I meant was that the _referential_ world was common. For example,
the story of Shakuntala, which Kalidas wrote a play about, occurs in
the Mahabharata (whose popularity in various parts of India in various
translations is undisputed). The stories were familiar.
Samir Bhattacharya
Paramita Das wrote:
> s...@hogpa.att.com (Samir Bhattacharya) wrote:
>> na, recitaion index-e vote deowa jayna; aykta tick mark deben RT'r
>> ghore jokhoni RT'r kobita poDben. Sherom bhabe onyo kobirao nijeder
>> khop-e tick mark paben jokhon apni, ba je-keu-i tNader kobita poDben.
>> Tarpor tally kore dekha RT'r fraction-ta koto. Ei ar ki! Adom-shumari
>> akhoni shuru korte hobe koyek bochhor pore ei proshno jokhon abar
>> uThbe, tar jonye.
> Nijer priyo kobi-ke jetaano-r jonyo shaubaai jaali korbe. Ayk kobita
>pNaachbaar poDe pNach-ta tick diley?
Kobita ayksho'bar poDleo kobi-to ayktai tick paben!
Jai hok, ke koto beshi jonopriyo shetai jokhon vote diye dekha hochhe
ta'le shobai-i joto ichhe tick marun-na? Apni ki ekkhuni
implementation-er kotha bhabchhen naki? Cohesiveness, universality,
eshob-er phoyshala nahole to bolte para jabena je aykjon matro ayktai
tick dite parben.
Tobe, Suman-ke kobi hishebe candidate hote deowata Thik hobena.
Samir
PS: scb-ke newsgroup theke baad deowata apnar uddeshyo chhilo ki na
jenei ami sheta include kore dilum follow-up-e.
> - Paramita
Soumitra Bose
sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> >
> >Amar aykta proshno achhe? Ei koulinyo protha-ki banglate kichhuta jor
> >ba plan kore, baire theke lok amdani kore boshano hoyechhilo?
>
> Yes.
>
> >Kara korechhilen?
>
> Ballal Sen, a ruler of the Sena dynasty.
>
> >Tar age ta'le shomaaj-ta kyamon chhilo?
>
> Apparently, the brahmins of Bengal were not considered "orthodox" enough
> (hey, Bengal was always a subversive place). So Ballal Sen apparently
> wanted to import more "pure" brahmins from north India.
>
> This is the story I heard. Someone can correct me if wrong.
>
> > Kulin kara?
>
> I am not quite sure how it is defined. For example, my ancestors are
> not kulin, although they supposedly came from Kanauj/west India. I
> suspect there is more to kulin-hood. Also, kulin-hood could be lost
> (for example if your daughter married someone from a non-kulin family, your
> family would lose its kulin status for all time; but I'm really not enough
> of a sociologist to know the details of how the system worked).
Ballal Sen Ishwarer prerito dut , ei morme kono certification tokhonkar
brahmon ra dite raji honni , abar tini nije Karnatakagoto howar jonne
BAnglae bhodroloke bash kore ta bishwas korten na , ei shomoie Kanauje
kichu upadhyay brahmonra jatnatoker shap-ludo khelai koyek round here
boshe thaken , eNderi Panch brhamon o Panch Kshtriyo ke uter pithe niye
ashen BAllal Sen , Rajmohol pahar par holei Manusmriti onujaiyii taNder
jat chole jai , Ballal sen er rajotte Tander bishesh Upadhyay bola hoi ,
tini tander kichu jaigir den , shobii Rar onchole , jemon Bankurar
Mukhoty grame jara ashen tanra Mukhopahdya hon , serokom Bondoghonti gram
chottore theke Bondopadhyay beroi ityadi. Tobe enrao pore benke boshe
Ballal sen ke Krishner obotar hishebe obhishek dite , Tokhon duti onghsho
ke aro jagir dewoa hoi , ek ongsho Raj chokroborthy upadhi pan , dorabrer
purohit hishebe , ar ek ongsho hochhye Bhattacharya ra , tanra jokhon
onnanno bishesh upadhayay der dwara rejected hon , enra tokhon Shakto
hoei jan , ebong ei notun dhormo grohon kore sei discrimination ke eran .
Ghoti Bhattacharya der ghanti hochhey NAihati Bhatpara ebong poroborty
porjaie ,Sirajer soinnobahinir songye paliye eshe Sonarpur, BAruipur,
Jagattdal, Rajpur onchole . Bhattacharyorai prothom Shakto dhormoke
institutionalize koren tothakothito upper-caster modhyye.
sayan bhattacharyya
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Siddhartha Duttagupta wrote:
> Polpular gan niyey question korata thik hoi ni!
>
> mor bina uthey kon shurey baji...
Illi ar ki. Tin din por uttor - er modhye dubar Kharagpur-e phone,
tinbar library - ami janina , na ? ;))
> Keno nam boltey ki achey? Flames ashbey ashuk na! Asholey amar bola
> uchit chilo jey "amar money hoi jey std. porey gechey".
Amar pathabhyashe ebong upobhoge: Amiyobhushan Majumdar, Debesh Roy,
Sandipon Chattopadhyay, SHankha Ghosh (hyNa, kobi Shankha Ghosher
subject-verb-object bhora godyo amar opoorbo laage), Swapnamoy
Chakroborty, Abhijit Mitra, Tapan Raychowdhury (shei je Romonthon othoba
Bhimrotipraptor Porochoritchorcha), ... anekei besh bhalo godyo lekhen.
Ar bajari lekhokder modhye tumi jader naam korechcho, eta oshshikar
korbona je tara shobai durdanto khomotar spark niyei eshechchilen.
Sunil-er jhorjhore godyo Bangla department-er bicharer porakashthay-o
shunechchi utterNo. Kintu kothao niye jete parlen koi ? Shirshendu-r
hothat hothat atpoure shobde praan-protishtha korar khomota (
Ayka-chora, phyadra-pyachang,)... shobtai jolo hoye gyalo ?
Kintu 'Bajar' ki kore dyay eder, sheta to amra dekhtei pachchi.
> To avoid specific A>B, ami shudhu etai bolbo jey amar motey ajkaler
> odhikangsho lekhok du-ekta bhalo lekha likhei tarpor shudhu tnader nam
> bhangiye khan. Ekaler dikpal shahityik (sic) jemon Samaresh Majumdar,
> Shirshendu, Sunil, Sanjib Chattopadhyay (yes the A.Sen/Hadley Chase
> guy) eder signal-to-noise ratio eto poor keno? Manlam pujo barshikir
> chapey 12 novels/year -er jonyo noise barchey kintu ekta lifetime
> achievement-er byaparoto achey naki? Rabindranath ekbari bangalider
> bhagyey jutbey eta mantey raji achi, kintu how about another bibhuti
> bannerjee?
Khub-i pertinent proshNo. Ami opore kichchuta bolar cheshta korechchi.
>
> >Shorkar theke poysha pele ki shahityer shubidha hoto khub ? Tomar ki
> >mone hoy ? Nettor-ra ki bolen ?
> >
>
> Shorkar-er taka na deoai bhalo, edeshey NEA-r ja hal, ekta no-win
> situation hoyey jai. Oboshyo bangali protishthaney politics thakbeyna
> eta chintao kora jai na. Money hoi local level-ey kichu kortey parlei
> shobcheyey bhalo. Esho bhai, jey jar mother-town key support koro!
> Edeshey to hoi, citizens group korey library/symphony ityadi support
> korey.
Eta tokhon-i shombhob hoy, jokhon onno-bostrer tagid thakena kimba keu
tagid-take chchaRiye othen. Kar shomoy ba udjog aachche, bawlo.
Shoumyo.
sayan bhattacharyya
Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>
>Kintu 'Bajar' ki kore dyay eder, sheta to amra dekhtei pachchi.
Hmm. It would be interesting to see how the free-market-forces
crowd on this newsgroup responds to this.....
-Sayan.
P.S. For the record, I am also for the free market. However, I
support market exchanges, not market forces.
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: ke aro jagir dewoa hoi , ek ongsho Raj chokroborthy upadhi pan , dorabrer
: purohit hishebe , ar ek ongsho hochhye Bhattacharya ra , tanra jokhon
: onnanno bishesh upadhayay der dwara rejected hon , enra tokhon Shakto
: hoei jan , ebong ei notun dhormo grohon kore sei discrimination ke eran .
: Ghoti Bhattacharya der ghanti hochhey NAihati Bhatpara ebong poroborty
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: porjaie ,Sirajer soinnobahinir songye paliye eshe Sonarpur, BAruipur,
: Jagattdal, Rajpur onchole . Bhattacharyorai prothom Shakto dhormoke
: institutionalize koren tothakothito upper-caster modhyye.
Aami abar jantam je kulin ra banglar nana jaygaye choriye giyechhe. Eta
gotra theke bojha jai. Jemon shob Chattopadhyay rai Kashyap gotra, shob
Mukhopadhyay rai Bharadwaj gotra ityadi. AAmar gotra kashyap. Aamar Biyer
aage purohit bole je se aamader biye dite parbe na karon aamar stree er o
kashyap gotra (or baba r bari chattopadhyay). Tokhon abar aar ek purohit
khuje ber kora hoi.
Aacha purba bange o to kulin aache. Tara kotha theke elo?
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
sayan bhattacharyya
>Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: ar ek ongsho hochhye Bhattacharya ra , tanra jokhon
>: onnanno bishesh upadhayay der dwara rejected hon , enra tokhon Shakto
>: hoei jan , ebong ei notun dhormo grohon kore sei discrimination ke eran .
>: Ghoti Bhattacharya der ghanti hochhey NAihati Bhatpara ebong poroborty
>: porjaie ,Sirajer soinnobahinir songye paliye eshe Sonarpur, BAruipur,
>: Jagattdal, Rajpur onchole . Bhattacharyorai prothom Shakto dhormoke
>: institutionalize koren tothakothito upper-caster modhyye.
This fits in with what I know of my ancestral history. My folks were
shakto, and they are indeed geographically from the Sonarpur-Rajpur-Boral area.
But I am curious: why did the Bhattacharyyas flee along with Siraj's
army (after Plassey?) ? What was their connection with Siraj-ud-daula?
Can anyone shed any light on this?
Sharmila Mukherjee
Siddhartha Duttagupta wrote:
> Polpular gan niyey question korata thik hoi ni!
>
> mor bina uthey kon shurey baji
> kon nobo choncholo chondey
> momo ontoro kompito aji
> nikhilero hridoyospondey
>
> ashey kon toruno oshanto
> urey boshonancholo pranto
> alokero nrittey bonanto
> mukhorito odhiro anondey
>
> omboro prangono majhey
> nishoro monjiro gunjey
> osruto shei taley taley
> korotali pollobo punjey
Ekhane `osruto shei taali baaje' hobe bodh hoi....
..[del]...
Sharmila
Siddhartha Duttagupta
> osruto shei taley taley
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ye, manet ota `tali baaje' bolei to jantam.
thanks to srabani bannerjee ei correction, thik-i lyrics perfectly
money rakha shokto, siddhartha
Soumitra Bose
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : ke aro jagir dewoa hoi , ek ongsho Raj chokroborthy upadhi pan , dorabrer
> : onnanno bishesh upadhayay der dwara rejected hon , enra tokhon Shakto
> : hoei jan , ebong ei notun dhormo grohon kore sei discrimination ke eran .
> : Ghoti Bhattacharya der ghanti hochhey NAihati Bhatpara ebong poroborty
> : porjaie ,Sirajer soinnobahinir songye paliye eshe Sonarpur, BAruipur,
> : Jagattdal, Rajpur onchole . Bhattacharyorai prothom Shakto dhormoke
> : institutionalize koren tothakothito upper-caster modhyye.
>
> gotra theke bojha jai. Jemon shob Chattopadhyay rai Kashyap gotra, shob
> Mukhopadhyay rai Bharadwaj gotra ityadi. AAmar gotra kashyap. Aamar Biyer
> aage purohit bole je se aamader biye dite parbe na karon aamar stree er o
> kashyap gotra (or baba r bari chattopadhyay). Tokhon abar aar ek purohit
> khuje ber kora hoi.
> Aacha purba bange o to kulin aache. Tara kotha theke elo?
>
> --
> Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
She to pore , tobe ei bishesh upadhyay ra shobii Rarri , karon tara
prothome eshechilen Raar onchole . Chakroborty ar Bhattacharya to
ekdhoroner upadhi, Bhattacharyora to boleichi converted shakto.
Purbo bongye kono ucchokoti brahmon er utpotti hoi ni, shobi hoi raari m,
na hoi uttor-purbo bongyer Barendro ra .Panglai ekmatro local brahmon
ache Mediniour o kichuta bankurai, Tader ar kulin bola hoi na . Emonki
Sharma ba je guti kotok Mishra ache tarao noi. Purbobongyer kuliner a
shob edhik theke jawoa ashole , tahole danralo je amra janra bangal bole
atnoshlghai bhugi , hoyto 14 generation age amra kichuta ghotii chilam ..
Soumitra Bose
> >: onnanno bishesh upadhayay der dwara rejected hon , enra tokhon Shakto
> >: hoei jan , ebong ei notun dhormo grohon kore sei discrimination ke eran .
> >: Ghoti Bhattacharya der ghanti hochhey NAihati Bhatpara ebong poroborty
> >: Jagattdal, Rajpur onchole . Bhattacharyorai prothom Shakto dhormoke
> >: institutionalize koren tothakothito upper-caster modhyye.
>
> shakto, and they are indeed geographically from the Sonarpur-Rajpur-Boral area.
> But I am curious: why did the Bhattacharyyas flee along with Siraj's
> army (after Plassey?) ? What was their connection with Siraj-ud-daula?
> Can anyone shed any light on this?
Mama , ota bujhte hole Asim Royer syncrtic Islam boita porte hobe , jodio
oi boiye er directly kichu bola nei, Harinabhi library te er uttor powa
jabe . Shiraj kokhonoi Shakto purut chara , ebong Kali chara ar gonok
chara kothaow norten na , ar tar birudhe shorojontro kari der modhye keui
shakto chilo na , tara tio chilo MArwari and Punjabi benia . Tai ei
Rajpurut ra (shiraj er amole abar Chakroborti ra raj purohit chilen na ,
chilen Bahattacharyo ra ) tar shongyei nicher dike neme jan , kintu Boral
sonarpur ar otikrom kora hoie uthe ni, HAmp dhore jai hoito , Hoito puro
tai golpo hobe , Hoito Shiraj odike janini , tobe ekhono purono adi
gongar track dhore onek relics achhe (Ami boral er kachei boro hoechhi).
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: She to pore , tobe ei bishesh upadhyay ra shobii Rarri , karon tara
: prothome eshechilen Raar onchole . Chakroborty ar Bhattacharya to
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: ekdhoroner upadhi, Bhattacharyora to boleichi converted shakto.
: Purbo bongye kono ucchokoti brahmon er utpotti hoi ni, shobi hoi raari m,
: na hoi uttor-purbo bongyer Barendro ra .Panglai ekmatro local brahmon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aacha ei Raar onchol ta kon jayga take bojhai? Barendra onchol tai ba konta?
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Aacha ei Raar onchol ta kon jayga take bojhai? Barendra onchol tai ba konta?
>
> --
> Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Mone hoy RaDH holo Purulia, BNakuDa, Beerbhoom, Bordhdhoman -ei niye.
Ar BorenDro holo Malda, Murshidabad, Dinajpur... ? Etar byapare nishchit
noi oboshyo.
Shoumyo.
------------------------------------------------------------
"...Sroter bolkole dhaka prodeepdrishyer pichchu pichchu
Nrityer bhongima matro jege thake, ar thake ophuronto dheu
Bhasha, shudhu bhashai niyoti"
- NODIKOTHA, Goutom Choudhuri
Soumitra Bose
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
> : She to pore , tobe ei bishesh upadhyay ra shobii Rarri , karon tara
> : prothome eshechilen Raar onchole . Chakroborty ar Bhattacharya to
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : ekdhoroner upadhi, Bhattacharyora to boleichi converted shakto.
> : Purbo bongye kono ucchokoti brahmon er utpotti hoi ni, shobi hoi raari m,
> : na hoi uttor-purbo bongyer Barendro ra .Panglai ekmatro local brahmon
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> --
BAnkura,Purulia,Bardhoman,Birbhum,emonki Huglir kichuta (Ajoy nodir
obobahika ).
Borendra bhumi hochhye Bangladesh o Wbengaler uttor dikta , mane
RAjshahi,Pabna,Mymenshing er kichuta, Dinajpur,Jalpaiguri,Malda o
Murshidabad er uttor ongsho.
E chara onchol gulo hochhye Bongo bhumi jeta pray puro Bangladesh o
Wbengal nodi obobahika onchol ar Poundryo onchol jemon Sribhumi ba
Srihotto,Mymenshing,Chottogram Tripura ,Kumilla ityadi ..
Sambit Basu
bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>>
>>Amar aykta proshno achhe? Ei koulinyo protha-ki banglate kichhuta jor
>>ba plan kore, baire theke lok amdani kore boshano hoyechhilo?
>Yes.
>>Kara korechhilen?
>Ballal Sen, a ruler of the Sena dynasty.
Ballal Sen-er ei sreni-chokrante-r biruddhe biplobi-der
ki jege ota uchit noy? Ashun amra Ballal Sen-er ei
sreni-bibhajonkari oshubho-shoDojontro-ke probol
dhikkar janai.
E byapar-e biswo-byapi ekti poncho-mukhi karjo-suuchi
grohon kora hok:
1. Sara bangla rail o rasta roko.
2. swakkhor-obhijaan (signature campaign)
3. Ballal Sen-er ei samrajyobaadi agrashon rukhte USEFI
obhijaan.
4. Bangla bandh.
5. Commune-e commune-e "Ballal Sen dhikkar-dibosh palon".
Sambit
partha_chatterjee
>> Nalinaksha BhattacharyyaRaar mane ekhonkar Dokshin Poschim Wbengal . MAne
>BAnkura,Purulia,Bardhoman,Birbhum,emonki Huglir kichuta (Ajoy nodir
>obobahika ).
>Borendra bhumi hochhye Bangladesh o Wbengaler uttor dikta , mane
>RAjshahi,Pabna,Mymenshing er kichuta, Dinajpur,Jalpaiguri,Malda o
>Murshidabad er uttor ongsho.
>E chara onchol gulo hochhye Bongo bhumi jeta pray puro Bangladesh o
>Wbengal nodi obobahika onchol ar Poundryo onchol jemon Sribhumi ba
>Srihotto,Mymenshing,Chottogram Tripura ,Kumilla ityadi ..
Teddy,
GoDai golod korechhish - Koulinyo pratha Ballal Sen'er shuru kara na Adishur'er?
Koulinya pratha niye comprehensive lekha achhey Nihar Ray'er Balgalir Itihash-
Prothom Parva. Ami factual detail kokhon mone rakhtey parina - boitao
hater kachhey nei. Modda kathata hochhey Kouliny prathata shob khetrei
self-proclaimed - onekta nijeder Arya boley ghoshana karar moto. Adishur
ba Ballal Sen overall caste system'er modhye kichhu substructure dhokatey
cheyechhilo bodhoi, kintu shafal hoini. Self-proclaimed kulinra parer jugey
ei ghotona gulokey refer korey nijeder dar bariyechhey. Bangali uchho bornoder
classify kortey geley du-dhoroner super-imposing classification chokhey
poDey - pradhanoto anchal bhittik (RaDhi, Barendra) ebong tarporey kichhu
ritual bhittik (Rik Vediya, Sham Vediya. EchaDao kichhu Vaidik shreni achhey
jara RaDhi ba Barendra kaukei nijeder shoman bhabena. Nihar Rai'er motey
era onekei poshima. Shomvoboto Kanauj thekey Kulin niye ashata bajey golpo -
Ballali galper shongey juDey diye aro glorify karar cheshta.
Malda, Murshidabad Barendrabhumir modhye paDena. Kokhono ota Poundrya,
kokhono GouD. Barendrabhumir strict definition - Padmar uttorey, Ganga/
Bhagirathi'r pubey.
Partha
sayan bhattacharyya
Sambit Basu <sam...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Ballal Sen-er ei sreni-chokrante-r biruddhe biplobi-der
> ki jege ota uchit noy? Ashun amra Ballal Sen-er ei
> sreni-bibhajonkari oshubho-shoDojontro-ke probol
> dhikkar janai.
>
> 2. swakkhor-obhijaan (signature campaign)
> 3. Ballal Sen-er ei samrajyobaadi agrashon rukhte USEFI
> obhijaan.
je kono sotyo biplob-er lokshyo, kokhono, kono obosthay, byakti (individual)
noy, tar lokshyo protisthan (institution) | byakti upoloksho matro hote pare,
kintu je kono sotyo biplober obhipray pratishthanik poriborton (institutional
change).
kaje kaje-i Ballal Sen byakti-Ti biplober lokshyo jodi hon, se biplob
somorthonjogyo noy| kintu todprobortito koulinyo protha-r obolupti jodi
ekTi biplober lokshyo hoy, tobe ta somorthonjogyo |
kintu aajke to `koulinyo protha`-r dowratmyo banglay bishesh nei, kaje-i
okosmat `koulinyo protha'-r biruddhe sambit-er bemokka laphalaphi-r jouktikota
dekhi na | onyanyo onek onishTo borong amader somaj-ke bortomane peeRito
korchhe, sambit jodi seguli-r utkhate mononibesh korte chan tobe nishchoyi
tNake somorthon korbo | (tobe, sondeho kori, serokom kono obhipray sambit-er
nei |)
aar, `ballali hangama' orphe koulinyo protha je juge bangali somaj-er upor
jogoddol pathorer moto chepe bosechhilo, se juge kintu onekei er biruddhe
dnaRiyechhilen | sambit bodh hoy se khobor rakhen na | ishwarchandra bidyasagar
ebong sharatchandra chattopadhyay namok dui bangali (sambit ki eNder nam
kokhono shunechhen? mone hoy na) kintu ei prothar birudhhe dNaRiyechhilen,
kaje ebong kolome ubhoyoto | ei byapare eNder kintu biplobi bole-i mone kori
ami, sambit koren kina jani na |
-- sayan
Ankur Saha
In article <5k38ri$7...@er5.rutgers.edu> sam...@eden.rutgers.edu (Sambit Basu) writes:
>
> Actually Sarat Chatujje-r naam shunechhi. Howrah Union-e
> back-e khelto to? Oboshyo na jaanle-o lojja petum na, biraat
> kichhu player chhilo na.
>
> Ei Bidyasagar ke (ki funny naam)? Jaanina, bole dao.
"VidyaSagar": Uttor kolkatar ekti Bidhansabha Nirbachan kendra (jakey
boley "seat" ba "constituency")| Ek somoy ei oncholey bohu khatal
chhilo ebong tatka "mosher dudh" paoa jeto| Khataler malikera Cong
ke vote dito sodolboley|
Niren chakkotti'r ekti kobitay ei oncholer ullekh achhey....
>
>
> Sambit
>
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ankur Saha
Developer Products e-mail: an...@hilsa.Eng.Sun.COM
Sun Microsystems Inc. voice: (415) SUN-9110
Apratim Sarkar
Siddhartha Duttagupta (sdu...@bsu.idbsu.edu) wrote:
: On 22 Apr 1997 15:21:54 GMT, asa...@cs.bu.edu (Apratim Sarkar) wrote:
: > Amar to mone hoy biye'r bajare tar dam'e. Jodiyo, Najrulgiti ar
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > semi-classical onek'ta bajar niye niyechhe.
: > RS shobai bojhe, tai bolei na Asha BhNoshle eshe geye jan.
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Double standards!!!! Biyer shomoy R.D. nischoi Asha-key boleychilen
: ekta RS geyey shonatey hobey, onakey ekhon dosh diyey ki hobey?;))
Private'e ja hochchhe hok, ta bole record korte hobe?
: speaking of growth sector, RS-er hindi version-er jey chol hoyeychey
: shetar shombondhey nettor der ki montobyo?
Tao achhe naki!? Baap re!
: siddhartha
Apratim.
Apratim Sarkar
Kalpataru Barman (ka...@mail-me.com) wrote:
: Sudhu Rabindanth-er kabita noi, osob kabita-tabita byapaar tai
: apangteo hoye porchhey. Baap maa-ra ghaar dhoorey ekta "Africa"
: baa "Prosno" mukhostho korachhen bachcha-ke diye.
: Hmm... mukhostho koro baba, ekta medal anoto chaand ! Osob Rabindranth
: bujhte hobey naa, borong Das Mukherjee-r Calculas ta bhaalo kore
: karo.
Agreed, Das Mukherjee oti dhop'r boi. Etoulo bagh'r bachchha
Bangali SCB'te achhe, cholun amra shobai nile school-pathyo ekti
bhalo Calculus'r boi likhi.
Apratim.
Indranil
sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: Sambit Basu <sam...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
: >
: > Ei Bidyasagar ke (ki funny naam)? Jaanina, bole dao.
: ini bidyasagari choTi-r probortok |
Shetao achhe? Ashol khyati kintu ei bole je uni Hindi chhobir proshidhdho
projojok Ramanand Sagar-er bou. Namta funny kano bolle, Sambit?
IDG
oncom...@gmail.com
Shoumyo Dasgupta
> > poDe, pata noDe - iha-i chhilo aadi-kobi-r prothom
> > kobita" dhoroner ki akta lekha chhilona?
>
> Sambit is right. But in that passage from Jeebonsmriti, Tagore
> was reminiscing about the feelings invoked on _reading_
> a poem for the first time. The question in this thread was about
> the first poem _written_ by him.
>
> -Sayan.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> For a man who no longer has a homeland, writing becomes a place to
> live.
> -- Theodor W. Adorno
"Jol PoRe, pata noRe" - eta Bidyasagar-er BorNoporichoy-e chchilo na ?
"Adikobir prothom kobita" bolte Rabindranath bodhoy tNar nijer moner
shonge "kabyodeb"-er shongjog-er muhurto-tir kotha bolchchen, amar mone
hoy.
Shoumyo.
sayan bhattacharyya
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Asif Shah Mohammed wrote:
>
> Hello everybody,
> I was wondering if anyone out there happened to know the very first poem
> that Rabindranath Tagore ever wrote. I would appreciate it if anyone could
> find this out for me and email me at:
> as0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Asif Shah Mohammed
> University of Rochester
I have heard two stories:
1. "Amshottwo dudhey pheli Tahate Kodoli doli
Shondesh pheliya diyi taate
Hapush Hupush shobdo Charidik Ni:(h)stobdho
PNipiRa kNadiya jaay paate."
2. Teacher in class challenged Robi: "Lekh dekhi chchondo miliye dui
line, amar line follow kore:"
Teacher writes: "Robi kore jwalaton, achchilo shobai
Borosha bhorosha dilo, ar bhoy nai."
Robi takes a minute to write his response:
" Meengon heen hoye chchilo shorobore,
Ekhon tahara shukhe jolokreeRa kore."
3. Of course, his initial published attempts would be probably found in
Shondhyashongeet and Probhaatshongeet.
Other nettors please add, if you have heard other stories.
Regards,
Shoumyo Dasgupta
-------------------------------------------------------------------
sayan bhattacharyya
Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>
>3. Of course, his initial published attempts would be probably found in
>Shondhyashongeet and Probhaatshongeet.
>
>Other nettors please add, if you have heard other stories.
I recall reading that Tagore in his childhood had a "khata" in which
he jotted down his poems. This "khata" was unfortunately lost. Thus,
these poems would probably have been earlier than the ones in
Sandhyasangeet and Probhatsangeet. But then, judging by the lack
of maturity in the poems of Probhatsangeet and Sandhyasangeet, it
is unlikely that we really lost much. The early poems were ones
in which the young Tagore was still trying to find his voice, and
many of the poems of Probhatsangeet and Sandhyasangeet are rather
immature and derivative of predecessors like Biharilal Chakrabarty.
sayan bhattacharyya
Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
>sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>> Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >Kobita shobshomoyei bodhoy kom "jonopriyota" peyechche, gaan-er tulonay,
>> >noy ki ?
>>
>> For most of the history of the Bengali language, the distinction
>> between "kobita" and "gaan" simply did not exist; thus the word
>> "sobsomoyei" is rather meaningless as used here.
>
>Ekhane ki pracheen Bangla shahityer kotha hochche naki ? Amar to dharona
>chchilo Paramita idaning-er kotha bolchchen, ar ami taake khanikta
>pichchiye niye jachchi. Khaniktai kebol, ekebare modhyojuge noy.
>
>Umapotidhor ba Shek SHubodoy poRini, dwadosh shotabdir kotha bolte
>ashini. Otota literally nebe bhabini bhai.
The word "sob" ("all") in "sobsomoyei" ("always") is an universal
quantifier. Unless otherwise qualified, the usage of this word
indicates that you are asserting some kind of universal, general
principle. In this case, the principle was not universal, but was
age-specific, which is what I pointed out. And yes, I _am_ a
literalist :-) It is my belief that if we keep redefining terms
as and when we please, we quickly end up making excursions into
slippery land of Seshadri-logik where meaningful discussion would
break down (scb old hands will know what I am talking about) :-).
Hence my insistence on adhering to proper terminology and careful
usage of words.
>> This is an interesting issue. Recall that Shakespeare's plays,
>> which certainly rank among the greatest, richest and most complex
>> poetry written in the world, were tremendously popular in his day
>> _among all sections of society_. Similarly, in our own language,
>> Krittibas and Kashiram, and the Mangalkabyos, some of which are
>> very great poetry, were tremendously popular among the masses. Thus, it
>> is not a universal rule that some kind of special training or skill
>> is always needed to appreciate great poetry.
>>
>
>Tahole, Sayan, tomar line dhore eta ki bola jay je jNara "Kobita
>bujhina" (adhunik) bole thaken, tNara Mongolkabyo/Krittibas/Kashiram
>poRen, ebong bojhen, ba poRechchen ebong bujhechchen, ba poRlei bujhben?
>Tomar juktir bistaar korchchi kebol, tomar mukhe kintu kotha
>boshachchina.
No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying, is that in certain
periods in history, the distinction between "serious art" OF THAT
PERIOD and "popular art" OF THAT PERIOD does not exist (the two are
one and the same, as in Shakespeare's England, or Mangalkabyo-era
Bengal). In certain other periods of history, the two are separate and
distinct (as in the contemporary age). The operative phrase in what
I wrote above (quoted) was "in his day".
In other words, I was NOT talking about the ability of a reader situated
in a specific point in history to partake of art originating from different
periods in history. What I WAS talking about, was the comparative
ability of readers situated in different periods in history, to partake
of art originating from THEIR OWN RESPECTIVE PERIODS. My contention was that
this ability varies from period to period (i.e. the relationship of
the reader to the art being produced in his/her own time is not invariant
but changes from period to period). Further, my claim was that this variation
in the reader's relationship to the art being produced in his own time is
not an arbitrary relationship, but is a function of the dominant mode of
economic production of the time the reader is living in.
Thus, the relationship of a contemporary Bengali reader (such as you
or I or scb readers) to Mangalkabyo was irrelevant to my point. My
point was about the relationship of the Mongolkabyo-era Bengali
commoner to Mangalkabyo and the relationship of today's Bengali
commoner to, say, Bishnu Dey. The point is that today's reader
needs special training to appreciate Bishnu Dey. But the 15th century
Bengali villager did not need special training to appreciate Mangalkabyo.
This is because society then was organic and cohesive and the process
of socialization that every person went through in the course of
normal life automatically prepared one for the art that was being
produced as a result of those selfsame processes. But in the case
of the modern era we have a situation in which society is much more
fragmented and non-cohesive (note that I am not saying whether this
is good or bad, I am just stating empirical facts), the division
of labor is much more obvious and specialized skills much more
pervasive, which is reflected in literary production just as in all
other walks of society.
sayan bhattacharyya
In article <8614855...@dejanews.com>, <para...@mpd.tandem.com> wrote:
>
>Proshongauto, Rabindranath-er kobita ki kromosho aupaankteyo hoye
>poDchhe bole money hoy aapnaader? RabindraSangeet jebhaabe aaj-o
>aapaamorjaunota-ke chNuye jaay, kobita-gulo-r shei aabedaun ki
>aachhe ektu-o akhonkaar pathok-er kachhe?
>
>Koutuholi,
>
> - Paramita
This has been discussed to death in the past in s.c.b. In brief,
my answer is : YES. I find Tagore's poetry still relevant and important
to me personally in this day and age. Especially his later poems, the strange,
terse, minimalist poems that he wrote in the last years of his life. They
speak to me. Poems like "Rupnaraner kule jege uTHilam". Intense poems, which
neither ask for nor give any quarter, but speak the truth, every bitter
morsel of it:
sotyo je koTHin
koTHinere bhalo basilam
se kokhono kore na bonchona
For example, I can think of no poem other than the following Tagore poem
which would be a more fitting epitaph for this terrible century of ours
which is now drawing to a close:
shotabdeer surjo aaji roktomegho majhe
osto gelo...
and these days, when I am utterly depressed and frustrated with the
way the world is going, I can relate to that hard-hitting, nihilistic poem
he wrote, a poem red-hot with the terrible, overflowing disillusionment
he must have felt in his later years:
dhormoraaj dilo jobe dhwongser adesh
apon hotyar bhar aponi-y nilo manushera,
bhebechhi peeRito mone, pothobhroshTo pothik groher
okosmat opoghate ekTi bipul chitanoley
agun jwole na keno moha ek sohomoroner ??
-Sayan.
Shoumyo Dasgupta
sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
> The point is that today's reader
> needs special training to appreciate Bishnu Dey. But the 15th century
> Bengali villager did not need special training to appreciate Mangalkabyo.
> This is because society then was organic and cohesive and the process
> of socialization that every person went through in the course of
> normal life automatically prepared one for the art that was being
> produced as a result of those selfsame processes. But in the case
E bishoye amar kachche kono tothyo nei. Ami janina e kotha kotodur
nirbhorjogyo. Shdharon khete khawa grambashi shotyi shotyi Mongolkabyo
poRto ? Tader kotojon shwakhkhor chchilo ?
SHoumyo.
sayan bhattacharyya
sayan bhattacharyya <bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>and these days, when I am utterly depressed and frustrated with the
>way the world is going, I can relate to that hard-hitting, nihilistic poem
>he wrote, a poem red-hot with the terrible, overflowing disillusionment
>he must have felt in his later years:
>
>
> dhormoraaj dilo jobe dhwongser adesh
> apon hotyar bhar aponi-y nilo manushera,
>
> bhebechhi peeRito mone, pothobhroshTo pothik groher
> okosmat opoghate ekTi bipul chitanoley
> agun jwole na keno moha ek sohomoroner ??
>
And to show the relevance, contemporaneity and jugopojogita of this
poem, one has only to notice that it is but a small step from this
poem to the equally strident and terrifying, similar apocalyptic
vision of Bishnu Dey:
aaj shudhu ekdike mumurshu bikaar
aar onyodike naTuke prolaap nirbodh nishTHur omanushik obhodro |
rowdro hano, baan dao, he surjo, he choitonyo akaash,
ei nityo opoghat door koro,
er cheye dogdho dine ene dao salanpur-er juganter bhushonDi prantor
or to Suman's (in some sense, even more similar):
bNeche theke morar deshe tomar rajyo paataa,
puRiye khak kore dao mithye bNeche thaka,
ami to bose-i aachhi tomay dekhbo bole,
he amaar agun, tumi abaar oTHo jwole!
How contemporary and fresh the Old Bearded Guy still sounds today!
It is amazing. It is almost as if he's still standing there in the
corner!
-Sayan.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
mbho...@aardvark.ou.edu
In article <5javho$7iu$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>
> Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>3. Of course, his initial published attempts would be probably found in
>>Shondhyashongeet and Probhaatshongeet.
>>
>>Other nettors please add, if you have heard other stories.
>
> I recall reading that Tagore in his childhood had a "khata" in which
> he jotted down his poems. This "khata" was unfortunately lost. Thus,
> these poems would probably have been earlier than the ones in
> Sandhyasangeet and Probhatsangeet. But then, judging by the lack
> of maturity in the poems of Probhatsangeet and Sandhyasangeet, it
> is unlikely that we really lost much. The early poems were ones
> in which the young Tagore was still trying to find his voice, and
> many of the poems of Probhatsangeet and Sandhyasangeet are rather
> immature and derivative of predecessors like Biharilal Chakrabarty.
>
> -Sayan.
>
If it is not too irrelevant, is it true that the first
published work by Tagore was not a poem but a
short story ? The short story, 'Bhikhareeni' was published
around 1877 when Tagore was only 16.
It is also curious that his last known piece of writing is
another short story, 'Musalmanir Golpo'--written
only weeks before his death in 1941. The story
was first published some 15 years after his death.
Best wishes,
Bilayet Hossain.
sayan bhattacharyya
Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>para...@mpd.tandem.com wrote:
>
>> Proshongauto, Rabindranath-er kobita ki kromosho aupaankteyo hoye
>> poDchhe bole money hoy aapnaader? RabindraSangeet jebhaabe aaj-o
>> aapaamorjaunota-ke chNuye jaay, kobita-gulo-r shei aabedaun ki
>> aachhe ektu-o akhonkaar pathok-er kachhe?
>
>noy ki ?
For most of the history of the Bengali language, the distinction
between "kobita" and "gaan" simply did not exist; thus the word
"sobsomoyei" is rather meaningless as used here. All Bengali poetry
starting from the Charyapadas right upto Bharatchandra was meant to
be _sung_ rather than heard or read. The rhythm of _poyar_ is
a very distinctive singsong kind of rhythm, which (at least to
my ears) seems closer to the singing voice than to the speaking
voice).
>Anekei pathyobishoyer baire kobita poRen na. Sheta tNader byektigoto
>ruchi, amra amader bichar chapiye dite parina tar opor. Kintu kobita
>poRbar ebong upobhog korbar jonyo je ekti shocheton, deergho, porisromi
>onusheelon o obhaysh laage, eite maante chan na aneke.
This is an interesting issue. Recall that Shakespeare's plays,
which certainly rank among the greatest, richest and most complex
poetry written in the world, were tremendously popular in his day
_among all sections of society_. Similarly, in our own language,
Krittibas and Kashiram, and the Mangalkabyos, some of which are
very great poetry, were tremendously popular among the masses. Thus, it
is not a universal rule that some kind of special training or skill
is always needed to appreciate great poetry.
The interesting thing is that the dissociation between high poetry
and mass culture which Shoumyo hints at, is a post- industrial revolution
phenomenon, i.e. a characteristic of the modern era. This dissociation
did not exist in the past. It is a consequence of the fragmentation
and breakdown of the organic cohesion of society which used to exist in
the premodern era, which happens with the changeover from non-alienated
(in the marxist sense) to alienated modes of economic production and
its consequent social changes. It is also not a coincidence that the novel
as a literary genre makes its first appearance at around the same time
that this dissociation starts happening in society. In many ways the
novel, with its dialogic, heteroglossic nature, is the very
antithesis of poetry, and it is quite natural that in an alienated
era the novel (or novel-like forms) instead of poetry should be
the suitable medium of mass culture.
I recommend interested readers to read the writings of the literary
theorist Mikhail Bakhtin on this topic (especially his collection of
essays called "The Dialogic Imagination") for further explorations
of this very interesting topic.
-Sayan.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indranil
sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: >and these days, when I am utterly depressed and frustrated with the
: >way the world is going, I can relate to that hard-hitting, nihilistic poem
: >he wrote, a poem red-hot with the terrible, overflowing disillusionment
: >he must have felt in his later years:
[..]
: How contemporary and fresh the Old Bearded Guy still sounds today!
: It is amazing. It is almost as if he's still standing there in the
: corner!
Mairi Sayan. RT Nobel peye gachhen bole tomakeo ato chamche hote hobe?
Ebar amar ekta paper bag lagbe.
Abar bhebe dakho, onar puro bandil-tai tumi aj jake "decadent burgeois
literature" bolle, tai. Erokom double standard niye ki kore bNachbe?
Tomader moto foto leftist-der jonyo shala aj puro leftist movement-ta
jhNajhra hoye gachhe. Britain-e ponchash bochhor dhore Conservative-ra
jite jay.
IDG
Siddhartha Duttagupta
In article <33596E...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>,>> kobita-gulo-r shei aabedaun ki ache
ektu-o akhonkaar pathok-er kachhe?
Ei line duto to bhalo milchey, apni ki choddobeshi kobi naki,bajar jachai
korchen, jerokom shona jai Bernard Shaw dokaney giyey nijer boyier kat-ti
niyey khoj koreychilen?;))
>
>Kobita shobshomoyei bodhoy kom "jonopriyota" peyechche, gaan-er tulonay,
>noy ki ? Gaaner prodhan ostro bodhoy shur, ja amader 'ortho-shondhani'
>mon-ke khanik achchonno kore dyay.
Ekhaney proshno ei jey, robindroshongiter prodhan akorshon ki tar
kothai na shurey? Amar nijer obhiggota ei jey jekono gan sur diyey
prothom akorshon korleo,lyrics bhalo na holey amar long term affection
thakey na. Hoito, "shajahan" ar jonopriyo noi, kintu "jey dhrubapada
diyeycho bandhi" ki kom holo?
>
>TNarai jokhon bolen je "kobitar bujhte parina kichchu", (bishesh kore
>"adhunik kobita"), tokhon obak laage. Tahole ki tNara Rabindranather
>shob kobita bojhen, Biharilal-er ? Madhusudan ? Amra to bhoy pai ekotha
>bolte!
Kobitar kotha boltey parina, godyoshahityer standard money hoi porey
gechey. Ei niyey sagarmoy ghosh-er ekta montobyo money porchey jey
sanjib chattopadhyay-r por onar sherokom kaukey chokhey poreyni. Sheyi
shongey aro kotha chilo, bangla porey ajkaler jugey cholbey ki korey
ityadi. Kothata khub-i shotyi, kintu is this the whole truth?
Robindronath ebong Biharilal chara temon dhoni amader ar kon
kobi chilen?
"Bideshi pakhi" boley guilt to shobshomoeyi mogojer bashinda. CRY-key
jodi taka ditey pari, taholey kobita key "bachiyey" rakhtey scholarship
ityadiro cheshta kortey para jai. Shoumyo-da boltey parbey hoito erokom
kono setup ekhoni achey kina.Naholey sonskriti gelo kobita morlo korey
kannakati korley ki ar phol hobey?
Janina kobira ektu "diversify" korley economic
security barbey kina. Golpo likhey kichu taka korey oboshor shomoyey
kobita likhley ki "purity" khub noshto hobey? Drishtantor modhyey to
hater kachey Sunil Ganguly acheni (na na pakhi bolar jonyo pechoney
lagi ni). Oboshyo etey "image"-er khoti hoar shombhabona achey, afterall
Pasternak-key amra anarira shudhu oupon-nashik bolei chini!
regards, siddhartha
sayan bhattacharyya
Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>> The point is that today's reader
>> needs special training to appreciate Bishnu Dey. But the 15th century
>> Bengali villager did not need special training to appreciate Mangalkabyo.
>
>E bishoye amar kachche kono tothyo nei. Ami janina e kotha kotodur
>nirbhorjogyo. Shdharon khete khawa grambashi shotyi shotyi Mongolkabyo
>poRto ? Tader kotojon shwakhkhor chchilo ?
Very few must have been literate. But recall that the culture was
mostly oral. There was the tradition of reading aloud to others (either
from from a pNuthi or from memory), the whole tradition of kothokota,
the reading/speaking aloud of ramayana and the mahabharata. In an era
when there was no pop culture and no entertainment industry, and no
electricity, how else would people spend their leisure hours?
Apratim Sarkar
Indranil (dgu...@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:
: Abar bhebe dakho, onar puro bandil-tai tumi aj jake "decadent burgeois
: literature" bolle, tai. Erokom double standard niye ki kore bNachbe?
: Tomader moto foto leftist-der jonyo shala aj puro leftist movement-ta
: jhNajhra hoye gachhe. Britain-e ponchash bochhor dhore Conservative-ra
: jite jay.
I disagree. Leftist movement'ke aj jodi keu bNachiye rakhte pare to
Tony B.'r moto leftist'ra (i.e. chakri pele Sayan ja hobe).
: IDG
Apratim.
Apratim Sarkar
Siddhartha Duttagupta (pra...@galaxy.ee.rochester.edu) wrote:
: Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
: >
: >para...@mpd.tandem.com wrote:
: >
: >> kobita-gulo-r shei aabedaun ki ache
: ektu-o akhonkaar pathok-er kachhe?
More importantly, konodin chhilo ki? Not RT'r kobita in particular,
kobita in general. 'Aro kobita poRun' e'i movement kobe shuru
hoyechhilo, 40's-50's'e? Jara korechhilen tara (amar antoto) baba'r
boyeshi. Shei tradition ekhono cholchhe, to borrow a cliche.
20'th century'te antoto, kobita chirodin'i swalpopothito. I think
poets should thank their stars for that. Bhebe dekhun, roj bikele
jyamon harmonium bajiye paRa'te paRa'te (antoto Kalighat'e) besuro
gan shadha na chaite sunte paowa jai, tyamon jodi birodorpe 'Tomar
jogyo gaan birochibo bole' shunte hoto? Ki balo Tathagata?
: >Kobita shobshomoyei bodhoy kom "jonopriyota" peyechche, gaan-er tulonay,
: >noy ki ? Gaaner prodhan ostro bodhoy shur, ja amader 'ortho-shondhani'
: >mon-ke khanik achchonno kore dyay.
: Ekhaney proshno ei jey, robindroshongiter prodhan akorshon ki tar
: kothai na shurey?
Amar to mone hoy biye'r bajare tar dam'e. Jodiyo, Najrulgiti ar
semi-classical onek'ta bajar niye niyechhe. But, this remains a
growth sector.
: Amar nijer obhiggota ei jey jekono gan sur diyey
: prothom akorshon korleo,lyrics bhalo na holey amar long term affection
: thakey na. Hoito, "shajahan" ar jonopriyo noi, kintu "jey dhrubapada
: diyeycho bandhi" ki kom holo?
Aha Pankaj Mollick beRe geyechhilen, jodiyo record'r sheshe eshe
time'r obhab'e loy'ta kinchit change korechhilen. Ja hok, amar
experience'e Geetobitan hate na niye lyrics bolte bolle onek
devoted shrota (apnar kotha bolchhi na) problem'e poRe jan.
: >TNarai jokhon bolen je "kobitar bujhte parina kichchu", (bishesh kore
: >"adhunik kobita"), tokhon obak laage. Tahole ki tNara Rabindranather
: >shob kobita bojhen, Biharilal-er ? Madhusudan ? Amra to bhoy pai ekotha
: >bolte!
RT'ke bodhhoy adhunik kobita'r modhyei dhora uchit. In fact ami
MMD'ke'o dhorbo. Na bojha to ekanto anonder kotha Tathagata. RS
shobai bojhe, tai bolei na Asha BhNoshle eshe geye jan.
: Kobitar kotha boltey parina, godyoshahityer standard money hoi porey
: gechey. Ei niyey sagarmoy ghosh-er ekta montobyo money porchey jey
: sanjib chattopadhyay-r por onar sherokom kaukey chokhey poreyni. Sheyi
: shongey aro kotha chilo, bangla porey ajkaler jugey cholbey ki korey
: ityadi. Kothata khub-i shotyi, kintu is this the whole truth?
: Robindronath ebong Biharilal chara temon dhoni amader ar kon
: kobi chilen?
: "Bideshi pakhi" boley guilt to shobshomoeyi mogojer bashinda. CRY-key
: jodi taka ditey pari, taholey kobita key "bachiyey" rakhtey scholarship
: ityadiro cheshta kortey para jai. Shoumyo-da boltey parbey hoito erokom
: kono setup ekhoni achey kina.Naholey sonskriti gelo kobita morlo korey
: kannakati korley ki ar phol hobey?
Songoskriti'o jai ni, kobita'o moreni. Nirmal Haldar, Goutam Basu,
Anirban, Apabrita, Shomit Mandal ... shobai likhchhen. Abashyo'i
financially help korte parle koyekta little magazine arektu
regularly beroy. E byapar'e utsahi keu achhen ki? Tahole e byapare
ekti potrika'r kotha likhtam.
: Janina kobira ektu "diversify" korley economic
: security barbey kina. Golpo likhey kichu taka korey oboshor shomoyey
: kobita likhley ki "purity" khub noshto hobey? Drishtantor modhyey to
: hater kachey Sunil Ganguly acheni (na na pakhi bolar jonyo pechoney
: lagi ni). Oboshyo etey "image"-er khoti hoar shombhabona achey, afterall
: Pasternak-key amra anarira shudhu oupon-nashik bolei chini!
Eliot'ke ki amra bank'r manager hishebe chini? Sahityo kore poisa
kora'ta onyay'r kichhu noy, kintu otai main purpose hole sahityo
katota hoy she byapare amar doubt achhe.
: regards, siddhartha
Apratim.
Das_Paramita
In article <5jgm5q$k...@news.bu.edu>, Indranil <dgu...@buphy.bu.edu> wrote:
>sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
>
>Mairi Sayan. RT Nobel peye gachhen bole tomakeo ato chamche hote hobe?
>Ebar amar ekta paper bag lagbe.
RT-r chamche holey apotti-r ki aachhe? Bhaudrolok akhono besh eligible.
Paper bag ityadi gulo ektu teeka-shauho likhle paaren.
>
>Abar bhebe dakho, onar puro bandil-tai tumi aj jake "decadent burgeois
>literature" bolle, tai. Erokom double standard niye ki kore bNachbe?
RT kintu nijer limitation shaumporke besh owakibauhaal chhilen. Double
standard baula jaay na kono raurome-i.
"Tai aami mene ni-i she ninda-r kautha
Amar shurer aupurnota
Amar kobita, aami jaani
Geleo bichitro pauthe, hauy naai she shaurbotrgaami.."
- Paramita
--
Paramita Das
email : para...@mpd.tandem.com
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Siddhartha Duttagupta wrote:
>
> In article <33596E...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>,
> Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >para...@mpd.tandem.com wrote:
> >
> >> kobita-gulo-r shei aabedaun ki ache
> ektu-o akhonkaar pathok-er kachhe?
>
> Ei line duto to bhalo milchey, apni ki choddobeshi kobi naki,bajar jachai
> korchen, jerokom shona jai Bernard Shaw dokaney giyey nijer boyier kat-ti
> niyey khoj koreychilen?;))
>
Bhabo Siddhartha, amar bon-er namesake bole kotha ;))
> >
> >Kobita shobshomoyei bodhoy kom "jonopriyota" peyechche, gaan-er tulonay,
> >noy ki ? Gaaner prodhan ostro bodhoy shur, ja amader 'ortho-shondhani'
> >mon-ke khanik achchonno kore dyay.
>
> Ekhaney proshno ei jey, robindroshongiter prodhan akorshon ki tar
> kothai na shurey? Amar nijer obhiggota ei jey jekono gan sur diyey
> prothom akorshon korleo,lyrics bhalo na holey amar long term affection
> thakey na. Hoito, "shajahan" ar jonopriyo noi, kintu "jey dhrubapada
> diyeycho bandhi" ki kom holo?
Chomothkar udahoron. "E Amir Aboron"-e poRechchilam je bohu porisheelito
srotar-o kintu prothom duek line-er por gaaner kobita-tir dyotona-ta
astey astey shurer ameje khoshey poRte thake. Amar to jay-i. Aaj-i
Sambit-ke telephone-e onyo akti proshonge prothom line-ei bhul kore
bolechchilam "ChNader alor bNadh bhengechche..." ('hashir' hobe,
nirbikar 'alor' boshiye dilam!!)
Chot kore bolo dekhi, chottami na kore, "Mor Bina othe kon shure baaji"
gaantar ontorar ongshotuku ?
>
> >
> >TNarai jokhon bolen je "kobitar bujhte parina kichchu", (bishesh kore
> >"adhunik kobita"), tokhon obak laage. Tahole ki tNara Rabindranather
> >shob kobita bojhen, Biharilal-er ? Madhusudan ? Amra to bhoy pai ekotha
> >bolte!
>
> Kobitar kotha boltey parina, godyoshahityer standard money hoi porey
> gechey.
Bhishon shadharonikrito (generalized ?) montobyo na eta ? Ki kore boli e
katha? Oboshyo naam bolbo na karo, bollei bipod.
> Ei niyey sagarmoy ghosh-er ekta montobyo money porchey jey
> sanjib chattopadhyay-r por onar sherokom kaukey chokhey poreyni.
Asha kori tumi 'Palamou'-er Sanjib-er kotha bolchcho. Achintyokumar
Sengupta ar James Hadley Chase-er shonkor oi Anondobajari maal-take
bolchchona!
>
> "Bideshi pakhi" boley guilt to shobshomoeyi mogojer bashinda. CRY-key
> jodi taka ditey pari, taholey kobita key "bachiyey" rakhtey scholarship
> ityadiro cheshta kortey para jai. Shoumyo-da boltey parbey hoito erokom
> kono setup ekhoni achey kina. Naholey sonskriti gelo kobita morlo korey
> kannakati korley ki ar phol hobey?
Edeshey aachchey bote erokom duekti shongstha. Paul Engle Iowa-y
International Writers' workshop porichalona korten bohudin. Kintu sheo
kebol shamoyik ek jomayet, nirdishto brittir shujog bodhoy khub ekta
nei.
Sunil oboshyo nana lekhay bolechchen je Yugoslavia-r kobirao flat pay,
taka pay shorkar theke, kintu Bangalira payna ityadi.
(Anandabajar kintu prochur poysha dyay)
Shorkar theke poysha pele ki shahityer shubidha hoto khub ? Tomar ki
mone hoy ? Nettor-ra ki bolen ?
Shoumyo.
----------------------------------------------------------
Das_Paramita
In article <33596E...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>,
Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>
> ruchi, amra amader bichar chapiye dite parina tar opor. Kintu kobita
> poRbar ebong upobhog korbar jonyo je ekti shocheton, deergho, porisromi
> onusheelon o obhaysh laage, eite maante chan na aneke.
Byapar-ta hoyto autota binary noy. Kichhu shadharon pathok(ebaung tNader
shyaunkhya-i beshi) to theke thaaken-i jNara "pathyopustauk"-er baire
du anaa khNoj raakhen, taube "dirghyo onusheelon"-er modhye diye kobita
theke aanondo khNoja-r cheshta kauren na. Amar proshno-ta SCB domain-er
shei shadharon pathok-er udhyeshye chhilo.
>
> TNarai jokhon bolen je "kobitar bujhte parina kichchu", (bishesh kore
> "adhunik kobita"), tokhon obak laage. Tahole ki tNara Rabindranather
> shob kobita bojhen, Biharilal-er ? Madhusudan ? Amra to bhoy pai ekotha
> bolte!
>
Eta thik-i je, adhunik kobita-ke unwarrantedly durbodhyota-r obhijoge
obhijukto kaura hoy. Kintu shetaake skhaalon korte giye RT ebaung uporokto
baaki kobi-der jautheshto straightforward kobitagulo-ke(odhikangsho-i -
amar mauto shadharon pathok-er kachhe-o) "durbodhyo" akhya deyoa ki thik?
> Rabindranther kobita-r je byapok kono obhighaat chokhe poRchchena apnar,
> etai ki tar ekta karon noy ? Tnar kobita to kebol "Ore shobuj ore amar
> kNacha.." noy; "Shongshare shobai jobe sharakhkhon shotokorme roto, tui
> shudhu chchinnobadha polatok baloker moto ..." eti-o o tNar-i kobita.
> Shomosto-ta shohoje dhorte pari koi ?
>
"Ebaar phirao more"(shaungshare shaubai jaube..) theke to madhyamik-e
bhab shaumprosharon deyoa hoto. Jautheshtho praanjol kobita-ta.
Samir Bhattacharya
Paramita Das wrote:
...
>Byapar-ta hoyto autota binary noy. Kichhu shadharon pathok(ebaung tNader
>shyaunkhya-i beshi) to theke thaaken-i jNara "pathyopustauk"-er baire
>du anaa khNoj raakhen, taube "dirghyo onusheelon"-er modhye diye kobita
>theke aanondo khNoja-r cheshta kauren na. Amar proshno-ta SCB domain-er
>shei shadharon pathok-er udhyeshye chhilo.
Shudhu SCB-domain hole to vote nilei hoy? Kintu ei domain-e shadharon
paThok achhe naki? :) Ar, jodi original proshno-ta, amar tokhon ja
mone hoyechhilo, sherom shomosto bangali-jonota'r RT'r opor agroher
opor hoye thake to ... kono citation index-er onukorone jodi
"recitation index" thakto, ta'le bola jeto. Rabindra-jayanti'r
popularity ki kome jachhe?
Ar aykta jinish interesting hobe jante parle. Ajkaal
pNocheeshe-boishaakh fungshaane je kobita-gulo beshi shona jay,
tate-ki noirashyobaad, omongol-bodh, ityadi "adhunik angik" beshi
dekhte paoa jay aagekar popular kobita-gulor cheye?
Samir
Apratim Sarkar
sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
: >sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
: >> The point is that today's reader
: >> needs special training to appreciate Bishnu Dey. But the 15th century
: >> Bengali villager did not need special training to appreciate Mangalkabyo.
Arektu egiye jaowa jak. Meghdut poRte gele (average non-Sanskrit
speaking) pathok'r ki haal hoto?
: >E bishoye amar kachche kono tothyo nei. Ami janina e kotha kotodur
: >nirbhorjogyo. Shdharon khete khawa grambashi shotyi shotyi Mongolkabyo
: >poRto ? Tader kotojon shwakhkhor chchilo ?
: Very few must have been literate. But recall that the culture was
: mostly oral. There was the tradition of reading aloud to others (either
: from from a pNuthi or from memory), the whole tradition of kothokota,
: the reading/speaking aloud of ramayana and the mahabharata. In an era
: when there was no pop culture and no entertainment industry, and no
: electricity, how else would people spend their leisure hours?
Eta fact na conjecture?
Apratim.