ISLAM is enemy of SCIENCE and RATIONAL THINKING
BABU RAMABADRAN
Dears Netters, you would have read interview of Mr Anwar Sheikh
and must have realized how islam is cheating muslims Indian
subcontinent. Not it is time to know how islam was able to kill brains
of so many muslims world wide. The author of this article has
beautifully analyzed why islamic countiries have not been able to make
even a single notable contribution to the modern word. Bombing of world
trade centere, Terrorism in Middleeast, Iran-Iraq war, Kuwait-Iraq-US
war, Israel and Arabs war, Terrorism in Kashmir, Terrorism in Bosnia
etc are some noteble contribution of the islamic countires to World. In
india there contribution is like partition of India into three
countires, terrorism in kashmir, illegal migaration to india form
bangladesh, riots in different cities etc. I am yet to see muslims
coming out of islamic shell and doing something notable for worlds. But
they must learn that life is more than islam and Jehad. This world is
good as world and there is no use of taking human lives for
establishing DAR-UL-ISLAM in world. You Just need to see world map and
find what part of world is in turmoil. YOu will start from the
midterranian sea and end at kashmir. Is this the present of Islamic
world, or is it the lost flicker of islamic world before complete
blow-off??? Any muslims will can only answer this question.
Regards,
Babu Ramabadran
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Living in limbo
-------------------------------------------------------------------
By Mazdak
WHEN did you last hear of a Pakistani scientist or engineer conceive,
invent or design something new, something that extends the horizons of
human knowledge?
Apart from the officially neglected Dr Abdus Salam the only Nobel
laureate for any of the sciences in the Muslim world, Professor
Salimuzaman
Siddiqui, Dr Parvez Hoodhboy and Dr Ata-ur- Rehman, I cannot think of a
single innovative and original Pakistani scientist. In fact, we can
draw
depressing parallels with the rest of the Islamic world where the same
intellectual inertia exists. How many patents have been issued to
Muslim
inventors? How many scientific or mathematical theories have been
propounded by Muslim scientists? Even our so-called nuclear research at
Kahuta is derivative and imitative.
Take even the most mundane research that has immense and immediate
relevance to much of the Islamic world, and we find that it is taking
place
in the West. For example, research into alternative sources of energy
like
solar power and wind energy could greatly benefit us, and yet what have
our
scientists and engineers achieved in this field? Or take desalination
of
sea water, or even agriculture in saline or semi-desert areas. We have
made
absolutely no progress, waiting instead for European (or Israeli)
scientists to give us solutions on a platter.
Last year, the World Bank suggested a number of economy measures to the
government. One of these proposals was to shut down the Pakistan
Council
for Scientific and Industrial Research. When made public, this idea was
greeted in the Press with shock and horror. In fact, it was viewed as a
Western plot to sabotage research in Pakistan. And yet, if objectively
analysed, the output of the PCSIR over the years does not exactly
inspire
confidence in the work being done in its laboratories. To a great
extent,
this is not the fault of the Council staff: starved of funds, the
budget
barely allows for salaries and utilities.
But the problem Pakistan and the entire Muslim world faces goes far
deeper
than the mere shortage of funds: in many countries not afflicted with
our
atrophy of the creative faculties, most genuine scientists would take
their
training and talents to institutions where they are put to good use.
Here,
they stay on for the sake of security as well as the fact that they
have
few options. Ultimately, they become time-serving careerists who have
more
in common with bureaucrats than with scientists.
The last decade has witnessed a remarkable growth in computer and
communication technology. How many Muslims have been at the cutting
edge of
this change? True, one or two Pakistanis have done well abroad in
marketing
computers and related products, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody
from this part of the world has made any significant contribution to
the
rapid transformation which is changing the way we think and live and
work.
Once again, the world is sprinting ahead, leaving the Muslim world far
behind. For centuries now, we have been reduced to the role of users of
technology developed elsewhere: nobody, including ourselves, expects us
to
be inventors and innovators.
Clearly, the problem transcends the shortage of resources: several
Muslim
countries are raking in and squandering billions of petrodollars, and
they could easily afford the costliest research equipment. But
scientific
breakthroughs first take place in the mind, and it is here that we lag
behind. What we have lost somewhere along the way centuries ago is the
sense of wonder, the burning curiosity that lie at the heart of
scientific
inquiry. This quest for pure knowledge for its own sake is driven by a
refusal to take anything for granted, and to question the most
fundamental
assumptions.
By separating the state from religion, secular societies have permitted
and
encouraged citizens to question, criticise and attack the state and the
social order without in any way involving the belief system. Extended
to
the scientific establishment, this translates into young researchers
bending their efforts towards constantly picking holes in officially
endorsed theories without losing their jobs. At a lower level, students
questioning their teachers on everything under the sun without being
threatened with expulsion. To field these queries, professors have to
be
well prepared. This constant ferment leads to a dialectic that results
in a
restless drive towards exploring the frontiers of knowledge. It can be
and has been argued that change for its own sake is detrimental to
social
stability; indeed, many Eastern societies have stagnated for centuries
because of this very assumption.
Here at home, we are caught in the dichotomy of wishing to make
material
progress while at the same time preserving intact our exploitative
social
order and decaying traditions. Unable to resolve this fundamental
contradiction, we are trying to prevent the winds of change from
blowing
away the cobwebs in our minds while simultaneously paying lip-service
to
the need for scientific advancement. This is in no way meant to suggest
that in order to make progress, we must give up our culture. However,
we
will have to discard the irrational and unscientific attitudes that
currently dominate the national psyche. The highly successful and
competitive Pacific Rim nations have transformed themselves within a
generation by ensuring education and health care for all their
citizens,
and by limiting their population growth to a reasonable and sustainable
rate. At the same time, they are investing heavily in research and
development. We are doing neither, and yet our fatuous leaders never
tire
of announcing that we are going to join the ranks of the Asian Tigers
any
moment now.
Basically, the rational approach consists in analysing issues
objectively
and solving them using the tools of logic we have developed and
internalised. We in much of the Islamic world find this an
uncomfortable
attitude towards life as it demands constantly questioning the status
quo.
We would rather live in the past, dreaming dreams of past glory. Our
religious luminaries have a vested interest in keeping the masses as
backward as possible so that they can retain their grip on their
benighted
intellects. Feudals want to keep progress at bay so that they can
maintain
their lock on power. The monarchs and dictators who rule most of the
Islamic world certainly do not want aware and educated citizens to
question
their right to govern. With all these interlocking interests striving
to
keep their people in the dark, it is little wonder that scientific
progress
is virtually non-existent.
Away from complex and expensive laboratories, the scientific approach I
am
talking about also includes the schoolboy opening up his alarm clock to
see
how it works; the eccentric inventor tinkering in his garage, devoting
years of his life and all his savings in developing a gadget which may
have
no practical use; the amateur astronomer examining the stars from his
backyard through his small telescope, dreaming of discovering a
heavenly
body which will be named after him. How many of us engage in these
time-
consuming tasks just to satisfy our own curiosity?
Until we in the Muslim world regain our sense of wonder and stop taking
things for granted, we are condemned to remain in limbo, inhabiting the
backwaters of human progress.
Jeremiah McAuliffe
bab...@ix.netcom.com(BABU RAMABADRAN) wrote:
Your title had little, if anything, to do with the article which was
about scientific creativity under dictatorial regimes. There was no
argument whatsoever that "Islam is the enemy of science and rational
thinking".
So what is *your* problem, Babu?
Jeremiah McAuliffe/ali...@city-net.com
***************************************
Visit Dr. Jihad's! Page 'O Heavy Issues
http://www.city-net.com/~alimhaq/miaha.html
The Amazing Camel Driver
In article <4v70bb$u...@dns.city-net.com> ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) writes:
>
>Your title had little, if anything, to do with the article which was
>about scientific creativity under dictatorial regimes. There was no
>thinking".
>
>So what is *your* problem, Babu?
>
>
>
>Jeremiah McAuliffe/ali...@city-net.com
>***************************************
>Visit Dr. Jihad's! Page 'O Heavy Issues
>http://www.city-net.com/~alimhaq/miaha.html
>
Mr.Babu is a Hindu Fanatic Nationalist who agrees with
the infamous racist hindu nationalist Bal Thackeray of India
that the same will happen to the Muslims of India that happened
to the Jews of Nazi Germany.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Proclaim: He is Allah the One and Only (Unique). All are dependent on Him and
he is independent of all. Niether has He an offspring, nor is He
the offspring of anyone; And none is equal with Him in rank.
-- Al Quran, The Book of Islam, Ch.112
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zillur Rahim
In article <4v7ffd$o...@newsb.netnews.att.com>, gu...@tlctest.mt.att.com.
says...
>
>In article <adam3Dw...@netcom.com>,
>The Amazing Camel Driver <ad...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> Islam is built upon one basis, namely, the doctrine (Aqeeda)
>> which states that there is only one god, Allah,
>> Who is beyond the universe, man, and life, Who created
>> .....
>
>Straightaway, you are misleading -- Islam is built on the
>basis that there is only one god, Allah ***AND*** that
>the Prophet Muhammad brought the world the best, latest and
>last word from the One God.
>
>The portion following the ***AND*** is very important, because
>there are many, many people who believe there is one God, with
>all the qualities/non-qualities listed in your post, except for
>each item following the ***AND*** : e.g., that Muhammad was
>a Prophet or that Muhammad is the last Prophet or that Muhammad
>brought the best word from God.
>
>-arun gupta
Let me add to Mr Arun Gupta. Actually the conviction starts with a negation.
"La ilaha illa Allah....", there is NO deity worthy to worship except Allah...
The negation negates all other forms of systems that lead to disobedience to
Islam. The disbelievers, during the time of the prophet, believed in one
supreme God, but that they also believed that there were intermediate gods
between man and God.
Indeed, the disobedience required to all other systems except Islam is well
very well documented by the statement of the Qur'an "If any desires any system
other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him and in the hereafter he will
be among the losers." Since Islam is a complete system and not merely a
religion, any system, laws, codes, etc. that contradict Islam falls under the
category of "any system other than Islam" of the Qur'anic aya.
The last part stating that prophet Muhammed is the last and final messanger and
a slave servant of Allah is also part and parcel of a Muslim's conviction.
Zillur Rahim
Arun Gupta
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4v86q4$s...@uuneo.neosoft.com> z...@holditch.com (Zillur Rahim)
writes:
negation.
>"La ilaha illa Allah....", there is NO deity worthy to worship except
Allah...
>
Rahman: Your statements only shows that the islam is enemy of
rational thinking. You think that the ALLAh is supreme and ***there is
not deity worth worship** becaue **quran say** that **no deity is
grater than ALLAH***. This shows lack of rational thinking among
muslims ( due to quran). No how do you know that the allah is the
greates deity???? Have you ever thought of other deities??? Did you
ever analyzed philosphies symbolized by other dieties?? YOu just
believed what is written in QURAN **without analyzing the quran***.
This is the place where hinduism differes from islam. Hinduism does not
say to believe in one god, or that there is no other god greater than
so and so, or only so and so can lead to heaven. In hinduism, there is
full spiritual freedom and a hindu can worship any god he likes.
>The negation negates all other forms of systems that lead to
disobedience to
>Islam. The disbelievers, during the time of the prophet, believed in
one
>supreme God, but that they also believed that there were intermediate
gods
>between man and God.
>
>Indeed, the disobedience required to all other systems except Islam is
well
>very well documented by the statement of the Qur'an "If any desires
any system
>other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him and in the
hereafter he will
>be among the losers."
In hindusim there is not such restriction, if a person is free
to enquire about other system without fear of prosecution. The people
practicing islam do not enquire about other religions and belief just
for fear of gettin ostracized from their community. Naturally, this
fear dsicourages rational thinking among muslims.
ISLAM IS LIKE A DEEP WELL IN WHICH IF A PERSON FALLS ACCIDENTLY,
HE/SHE CAN NEVER COME OUT OF IT.
Regards,
babu ramabadran
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <adam3Dw...@netcom.com> ad...@netcom.com (The Amazing Camel
Driver) writes:
>
>In article <4v70bb$u...@dns.city-net.com> ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah
McAuliffe) writes:
>>
>>Your title had little, if anything, to do with the article which was
>>about scientific creativity under dictatorial regimes. There was no
>>thinking".
>>
>>So what is *your* problem, Babu?
My problem with islam is lack or freedom given to muslims to
think rationally. The article I posted describe how the islamic
countries have failed to make any contribution to science and
technology. Why it is so that the islamic countires do not exist on the
texhnological map of the world. I have reposted my article so that you
can read yourself what the author of the article is describing.
Moreever, I consider the following reasons why it is difficult to be
muslman and rational thinker at same time. No doubt some muslmans have
tried to think rationally, but they then beocme enemies of the other
muslims and ( islam in general).
The biggest reason for lack of rationality among muslims is islam is
quran itself. What ever has been written in Quran cannot be challanged
by muslims. If muslims challange islam, they do not remain muslims any
more.
The islam demands slavery from non-arab people. This has been
beautifully described in Anwar Sheikhs book. There are so many bad
things in islamic society like
1. Jehad
2. Polygamy
3. Poor status of women
4. Slavery
6. Preminence of Religious leader ( FATWAS ) etc.
7. Talaq
If you carefully analyze above points, you will not that islam is
indeed irrational.
What is rationality of Jehad ( except of religious fanaticism)
The polygamy is also solely due to quran and Sharia
Islam promotes slavery which is the worst thing that a human
society can have. Islam promotes exploitation of one person another.
What is rational basis of talaq. Why should a man should be free
to give talaq only by uttering talaq three times.
No coming to issue of FATWAS, if you are rational thinker ,
then you have no place in islam, becaue you cannot challange quran. Any
mullah can issue a FATWA which can override results of rational
thinking.
>>
>>
>>
>>Jeremiah McAuliffe/ali...@city-net.com
>>***************************************
>>Visit Dr. Jihad's! Page 'O Heavy Issues
>>http://www.city-net.com/~alimhaq/miaha.html
>>
>
>
>Mr.Babu is a Hindu Fanatic Nationalist who agrees with
>the infamous racist hindu nationalist Bal Thackeray of India
>that the same will happen to the Muslims of India that happened
>to the Jews of Nazi Germany.
Any muslims will call me fanatic/nazist/facist because I expose
islam and condemn islamic fundamentalist. After all india is my country
and It is my duty to think good of my country. If indians will not
think of India, who else will think. Therefore I accept your comments
gracefully.
Yes, we need law abiding citizens in India. India has no place
for islamic mujaheedens, muslims fanatics, islamic fundamentalists and
law breaking muslims. All these anti-national elements will be firmly
dealt with in India. Therefore muslims should start denouncing islamic
fundamentalism and learn to live under rational laws. Did I say
anything wrong or any muslim challanges my wishes????????????
Regards,
babu ramabadran
Readers please read the following article and try to analyze is
it not right to say that islam is enemy of science and rational
thinking ( Or more accurately, islam is enemy of scientists and
rational thinkers)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bilal
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> In the article <4v8hrh$t...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
> of 19 Aug 1996 02:00:17 UTC,
> bab...@ix.netcom.com(BABU RAMABADRAN) wrote:
> > . . . The islam demands slavery from non-arab people.
> > This has been beautifully described in Anwar Sheikhs
>
> They also prescribe the genital mutilation of boys and
> girls, as well as the killing and eating of animals.
I think the practices you are referring to are circumcision and
non-vegetarian diets. It may shock you but they're very common
practices in the non-cow-worshipping world. I understand your surprise
though. It's kind of like wiping one's ass is a non-sensical practice
for a bushman. But everyone evolves in time. So keep at it.
Jeremiah McAuliffe
j...@mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
>They also prescribe the genital mutilation of boys and
>girls, as well as the killing and eating of animals.
But at least we DON'T have bride burning. Thank God for small favors,
eh?
Mr Moazzam Hossain
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
. . . The islam demands slavery from non-arab people.
This has been beautifully described in Anwar Sheikhs
society like 1. Jehad 2. Polygamy 3. Poor status of
women 4. Slavery 6. Preminence of Religious leader
(FATWAS) etc. 7. Talaq
girls, as well as the killing and eating of animals.
_ Dr. Jai Maharaj: Are you talking to non-muslims people? Because
Muslims already know what are talking are mere fabrication.
They also prescribe the genital mutilation of boys and
girls,
_ Wrong? Circumcission is only applicapbe to the man/boy. This
is also practiced in Zudaism. It is so good for the man health
that 40% of the (non-muslim,non-jews) North American also accepting
this, because of health reason.
-as well as the killing and eating of animals.
Is there any living organism in this universe who survives without
eating another living things ? Come on Jai. Fish,rice,Plants are
also living creatures? Do not misguide the people? Do not mis-explained
the bio-system.
1. Jehad
- Fight for justice and rigtheousness. It is bad? Then whta is good?
2. Polygamy
It is not obligatory? It is only acceptable when cicumstances demands.
3. Poor status of women
- Is there any religion who offeres better status of the woman
than Islam ? No way. Please do not mislead.
4. Slavery
- Contrary to your propagand. Islam forbids slavery.
6. Preminence of Religious leader (FATWAS) etc
- Religious leader are the best man of the society becuase of their
faith, education, rightfull work ? They are not chosen becuase of their
born. They are not selected because of thier caste. They are better than
most of the dictaors and atleast,some of the corrupt parliamentarians.
So why they can not give the guidance?
7. Talaq
- Talaq or Divorce is well-practiced custom in all over the world now.
What you are talking about ? However, It is the least acceptable
way in Islam.
Mahmud Alam
Dear Mr Rambardhan,
It is not the religion that is at fault for stifling the growth of
science and technology, but rather the asshole goverments that are the
main cause. There are many muslim countries in the world that could
foster research for peaceful purposes, but choose instead to buy arms
to support a tyrranical goverment. One good example is Saudi-Arabia,
Kuwait, Iran etc. A large cor of the western labour whether skilled or
unskilled comprises of moslems. Much of the western success in science
and technology has its roots in the discoveries in science and
mathematics by arab mathematicians and philosophers. Therefore moslem
all over the world are quite capable of great achievements like anyone
else of any other religion, it is just that most of them reside in
countries that are ruled by brainless idiot mullahs.
>
>
Dr. Jai Maharaj
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In the article <321885...@hp.rmc.ca>,
of Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:16:59 -0400,
Mr Moazzam Hossain <hos...@hp.rmc.ca> wrote:
> Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>> . . . The islam demands slavery from non-arab people.
>> This has been beautifully described in Anwar Sheikhs
>> book. There are so many bad things in islamic
>> society like 1. Jehad 2. Polygamy 3. Poor status of
>> women 4. Slavery 6. Preminence of Religious leader
>> (FATWAS) etc. 7. Talaq
> - Mr Moazzam Hossain <hos...@hp.rmc.ca>
No, I did not write the above. Please read the original
post again.
Jai Maharaj <j...@mantra.com>
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:% Om Shanti %:%:%
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Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
The Amazing Camel Driver (ad...@netcom.com) wrote:
: As for the need of things to be created by a creator, the
: things which the mind comprehends are: man, life and
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: the universe; all are finite; and consequently they are
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The human mind also comprehends the set of real numbers and the set of
rational numbers, both of which are infinite. Moreover, you might like to
ponder on the fact that the set of rational numbers is a proper subset of
the set of real numbers. Roughly speaking that means the mind comprehends
two infinite things onecontained by the other!
I have deleted the rest of your inordinately long post. However, I have
three comments to make:
Comment 1
~~~~~~~~~
Your post is iordinately long because you have repeated the same post
about 200 times. This shows that
a)You have a lousy editor.
b)You don't read your own writing before posting it all over internet.
In view of a) and b) may I suggest that you stick to the profession
implied by your pseudoname, namely camel driving, and leave internet alone.
Comment 2
~~~~~~~~~
You have given a number of quotes from Maurice Bucaille's book "The
Bible The Quran and Science". On reading it I have found that Maurice
starts with an agenda of proving the divine origin of Quran. So it is
hardly surprising that he ends up finding such evidence. As for example on
Page 140 (1979 edition) he quotes a number of verses from the Quran which
talks about "seven heavens", "seven paths" etc. and then without batting
an eyelid he makes the following statement
" The commentators on the Quo'ran are in agreement on all these verses:
the number 7 means no more than plurality."
He then goes on to conclude how the Quran tells us about many possible
worlds!
No wonder with such broad latitude anything and everything in Quran (or
in any other religious text) can be made to fit anything and everything
from bicycle to bevatron.
Comment 3
~~~~~~~~~
Islamic faith like any religious faith is essentially non-falsifiable.
There may be an Allah or there may be 30 crores of Gods or there may be
no god! We have no way of knowing for sure. I hope you appreciate that
your pseudo-scientific arguments only belittles the stature of your faith.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Dr. Jai Maharaj
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In the article <4v8hrh$t...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
of 19 Aug 1996 02:00:17 UTC,
bab...@ix.netcom.com(BABU RAMABADRAN) wrote:
> . . . The islam demands slavery from non-arab people.
> This has been beautifully described in Anwar Sheikhs
> book. There are so many bad things in islamic
> society like 1. Jehad 2. Polygamy 3. Poor status of
> women 4. Slavery 6. Preminence of Religious leader
> (FATWAS) etc. 7. Talaq
They also prescribe the genital mutilation of boys and
girls, as well as the killing and eating of animals.
Jai Maharaj <j...@mantra.com> *-=Om Shanti=-*
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%
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Dr. Jai Maharaj
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In the article <321885...@hp.rmc.ca>,
of Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:16:59 -0400,
Mr Moazzam Hossain <hos...@hp.rmc.ca> wrote:
> . . . -as well as the killing and eating of animals. Is
> there any living organism in this universe who survives
> without eating another living things ? Come on Jai.
> Fish,rice,Plants are also living creatures? Do not misguide
> the people? Do not mis-explained the bio-system. . . .
Scientifically, a plant-based diet is a much healthier
choice. Please read:
REVOLUTION IN DIET AND MEDICINE
*------------------------------------------------------*
SPECTRUM, Number 24, May-June 1992
*------------------------------------------------------*
Dr. Neal Barnard is President of The Physicians
Committee For Responsible Medicine, a nationwide group
of physicians that promotes preventive medicine and
addresses controversies in modern medicine. In April
1991, he and three other doctors unveiled a proposal to
replace the old Four Food Groups concept initiated in
1956.
In his book, "The Power of Your Plate," Dr. Barnard
documents the scientific evidence supporting a low-fat,
vegetarian diet as the most potent regimen to reduce
risk of heart disease, cancer, weight problems and
food-borne illness. Aside from serving as a practicing
physician on the faculty of the George Washington School
of Medicine, he is also an Associate Director for
Behavioral Studies at the Institute for Disease
Prevention.
Spectrum: Could you tell me a little about your
background?
Neal Barnard: I grew up in North Dakota, and I was
completely oblivious to nutritional issues. I ate the
pork-chop-and-roast-beef diet that everybody else eats
in that neck of the woods. My father was a doctor, and
my grandfather was a doctor, but we have four people in
my family that are cattle raisers. I think all of us,
both the people that were eating cattle and the people
that were interested in medicine, really didn't
appreciate the links between diet and illness.
I had a job at McDonald's in high school, but my first
year of medical school I started to become sensitive to
a lot of issues, one being the relationship of diet and
disease. I would say this awareness was aided and
abetted by a realization of what animals go through in
agriculture, which is grotesque. Most people don't see
it, but I did growing up. Only later did it start to
make sense to me, and in the first year of medical
school I became a vegetarian.
I started the Physician's Committee For Responsible
Medicine in 1990 with an aim of taking on lots of
issues, not just preventive medicine. In that area, for
example, we publish a magazine called the Guide to
Healthy Eating. Its goal is to provide user-friendly
nutrition information, with little recipe cards in every
issue that you can tear out and put in your recipe file.
The magazine is also used as a hand-out for patients in
doctors' offices.
We have a nutritional program for businesses called the
Gold Plan. If you're working at IBM, or wherever, at
lunch time in the cafeteria you can get nutrition
information on healthy, totally vegetarian foods.
*------------------------------------------------------*
The key is that we have to go beyond the recommendations
that most conservative medical organizations have been
using . . . I'm not discouraging people from getting
medical care when they really need it, but I am
encouraging people to take advantage of what they can do
on their own . . .
*------------------------------------------------------*
As I mentioned, our organization has taken on other
issues. We've done quite a lot to promote alternatives
to animal research. We've done some work against
unethical human research, and made trouble in various
other ways. You can make a lot of friends and a lot of
enemies doing this kind of work.
Spectrum: Should people sometimes think twice about
going to the doctor? What are some important ways you
think that people need to take responsibility for their
health care?
Neal Barnard: The first key is to recognize that your
power is far greater than the power that a physician
might have. By that I mean that once you have heart
disease, the capacity that your doctor may have to limit
it, or reverse it, is far less than the power you had to
prevent it from occurring in the first place, or even to
reverse it through lifestyle measures. I'm not
discouraging people from getting medical care when they
really need it, but I am encouraging people to take
advantage of what they can do on their own, which is
phenomenal.
Even two, three, or four years ago, we did not know that
the plaques in your coronary arteries could actually
dissolve with lifestyle measures alone. We now know that
they can. Dr. Dean Ornish has established beyond any
reasonable doubt that a combined program of vegetarian
diet, modest exercise, stress reduction, and not smoking
can accomplish this. That sort of regimen will actually
make those plaques start to disappear without medicine,
without surgery, and, relatively quickly. Within one
year he achieved demonstrable changes in most of the
patients he studied.
The key is that we have to go beyond the recommendations
that most conservative medical organizations have been
using. By that, I mean the American Heart Association,
the American Cancer Society -- their recommendations
will not reverse heart disease. A 30% fat diet with lean
meat, chicken and fish is not going to reverse anybody's
heart disease, nor will it prevent it. You can look at
such a diet and know that that's the case. Chicken, fish
and lean meats have cholesterol and saturated fat in
them; they have no fiber or complex carbohydrates.
Spectrum: Recent studies showed that fat reduction down
to 30% did not help much. Because of this, some people
now are saying that you don't really need to worry about
fats.
Neal Barnard: Yes, that is actually one of the most
devastating effects of poorly done research, or maybe
poorly interpreted research. For example, there was a
very large, and I believe well-done, study of nurses
done through Harvard University, but I think that its
results were so poorly interpreted as to have the effect
that you've just described. The results were as follows:
It has been known for a very long time that animal fat,
and to a lesser extent, all fats, increase the risk of
breast cancer. The reason is that fats increase the
production of estrogen in the body, and that, in time,
over-stimulates the cells of the breast and they become
cancerous. There are other reasons, also.
In this Harvard study, thousands and thousands of nurses
were tracked year after year -- what they ate, their
incidence of illnesses, and so forth. During a four-year
period, the researchers noticed that those who had
somewhat less fat in their diet, as well as those who
had more fat, had the same risk of breast cancer. They
interpreted that to mean that changing your diet doesn't
help.
If you look more closely, those who were eating the
least fat were still eating about 29% of their calories
as fat. That's not very far under the average in
America. But compare that to Japan. When Japan was at
its very lowest incidence of breast cancer, Japanese
women were eating 7% or 8% of their calories as fat.
That would be about the typical amount found in a
low-fat, vegan diet.
The fat intake of nurses in the study ranged from 29%
and up. All of them are at high risk of cancer. It's the
equivalent of saying, "if I'm smoking two packs of
cigarettes a day, and I cut down to one, will that
reduce my risk of having lung cancer?" And, you may find
it doesn't. If you, then, interpret that to mean that
smoking doesn't matter, you've made a grave error.
*------------------------------------------------------*
The meat-eating women are eight times more likely to
have breast cancer. The genetics are the same...so
that's not a factor.
*------------------------------------------------------*
Likewise, there was a study recently where they did a
statistical analysis of the benefit of reducing the fat
in your diet to about 30%, and they concluded your
average person would gain only a month or two of life,
overall. Well, that doesn't mean diet doesn't work, it
means that modest changes in your diet don't work.
So, that's the message I want to get out to people. If
you change your diet, and do it very vigorously, you
have enormous power. You can reverse heart disease. You
can prevent it. You can, I believe, prevent most cases
of cancer if you combine dietary changes with avoiding
tobacco. You could prevent probably 70% or 80% of
cancers, just by those steps alone. And, obviously,
there's a whole host of other diseases that you would be
able to live without.
Spectrum: I've talked to some people who dispute those
studies indicating the superior health of traditional
Japanese people. These critics say that a lot of
Japanese died young because their lives were harder or
less sanitary, and this left only the healthier ones to
be counted in the studies. Or, that their longevity
might be due to some kind of genetic effect. People come
up with all kinds of reasons why this epidemiological
information isn't accurate, but I assume the researchers
controlled for those variables.
Neal Barnard: The fact of the matter is, there is not
just one, but many, many studies, and not only looking
at the Japanese in their own society, but looking at
them as they changed their diet, and adopted ours.
Spectrum: When they come to America?
Neal Barnard: When they come to America, or even wealthy
Japanese women living in Tokyo or Osaka eating a western
diet with meat every day, compared to poorer people in
the same area who are not eating meat. The difference in
breast cancer risk between a Japanese woman eating meat
every day, and a Japanese woman who isn't, is a factor
of eight. In other words, the meat-eating women are
eight times more likely to have breast cancer. The
genetics are the same in these cases, so it's not a
factor.
If a Japanese family comes to the U.S., their children
eating a Western diet will have the same risk of breast
cancer as the Caucasians living around them, and here
again it is not an effect of genetics.
The other things that you mentioned -- sanitation and so
forth -- the Japanese put us to shame in this area, and
their longevity is greater, not less than ours.
Diet has to be one of the reasons for their good health.
That's not to say that I think everyone should adopt a
Japanese diet without thought. There are things wrong
with the diet. In some cases there is too much salt and
too many pickled foods, and so forth. But you can take
the best of both worlds.
Spectrum: I first heard about your work in the
newspapers. I believe the U.S.D.A. had developed a
"pyramid" of foods to replace the Four Food Groups. Your
association then proposed a new, entirely vegetarian
Four Food Groups. Can you tell our readers a little
about what your intentions were, and about your Four
Food Groups? What kind of reaction did you get from the
medical establishment?
Neal Barnard: The old Four Food Groups are meat, dairy,
grains, and vegetables/fruits. That's a prescription for
premature mortality. That's a prescription to kill off a
sizable percentage of the population and it's the
prescription that all of us learned as we were going
through school. It started in 1956, after years of other
various schemes that the Department of Agriculture had
developed. There used to be more food groups than four.
Science has come a long way in the 36 years since.
Spectrum: What was behind the development of the
original Four Food Groups? Was there any political or
economic thrust behind it, or was it concerned totally
with health?
Neal Barnard: I think the original idea probably stemmed
from a desire to educate people about simple steps they
could use to stay healthy However, it has been used
essentially as a promotional campaign for agricultural
products. Dairy products got their own group, and it was
prominently featured. If you look at the fine print on
the posters that are in schools, it indicates that the
Dairy Council has put these out. They print the posters,
and they still promote the old Four Food Groups because
it increases sales of their products. It's the same with
the meat producers.
The original Four Food Groups is completely out of sync
with all the science that has gone on since that time.
We now know that people who eat no meat at all -- who
violate the Four Food Groups - - live longer. They have
less incidence of disease and they are thinner. People
who avoid dairy products, far from showing signs of ill
health, are healthier than people who consume dairy
products.
We felt that we had to rewrite the Four Food Groups --
continue to use the idea of a simple tool that kids
could learn in school, but have it be something that is
in sync with modern science. The new Four Food Groups
are grains, vegetables, fruits, and legumes -- legumes
meaning anything in a pod, such as peas, beans, lentils.
If that were the basis of nutritional teaching, we could
revolutionize the health in this country.
When we first made this proposal, it wasn't just me
standing up at the podium and waving this around, we had
Dennis Burkitt with us, the British doctor who
discovered the value of fiber. He spent years in Africa
comparing different diets, and is one of the most widely
respected cancer researchers in the world. He came to
Washington and said "Yes, the new Four Food Groups could
save a lot of lives."
Colin Campbell, the head of the China health study, also
came to Washington and endorsed it, as did Oliver
Alabaster, a cancer researcher. So, we felt we were on
very solid ground with this, and, we certainly are.
There's a wealth of research behind it.
By the way, the new Four Food Groups is going to come
out as a curriculum for seventh and eight grades a
little bit later this year. So if teachers want to teach
it, and throw out the old Four Food Groups, I would be
honored.
There was a good deal of response to our new Four Food
Groups, and it differed depending on who was giving it.
The press was, by and large sympathetic to it, and, so
was the public. They would raise appropriate questions,
such as, "Will you have strong bones without dairy?" and
the kinds of things that people wrestle with when
they're first looking at this. But, lets face it, the
press has known for years that heart disease is not a
question of bad luck or genetics. It's a question of
what's on your plate. So, it was no big surprise.
People have been criticizing the meat industry for
years, but the criticisms of dairy products were new to
many people, and I was surprised at how well-received
that was as well.
The only real criticism I think came from conservative
medical organizations who have been promoting weaker
diets for years, and certain agricultural producers. The
fruit and vegetable growers were delighted. The rice
growers thought this was the best thing they ever heard
of. But, the livestock producers naturally fought it
with the same venom that the tobacco growers have fought
tobacco legislation.
That happens, you expect it, but you've got two choices.
If you were going to try to reform, to help America, you
can be honest and expect the flack you're going to get
and accept it, or you can sellout and lie to people. To
me the choice is very clear. You have to tell people the
truth, and they will gradually accommodate to it, and
hopefully see its wisdom.
We knew when we did this that the Department of
Agriculture would not say, "Oh, great idea, we'll change
the Four Food Groups." We knew it would be a long
process of acceptance, but we know we're right. What we
wanted to do, then, was kick off the process by getting
the public involved, getting them writing letters to the
editor and complaining. We wanted to work our way
eventually into the consciousness of the government, and
I think that process has begun, and I don't think it's
reversible.
*------------------------------------------------------*
The press has known for years that heart disease is not
a question of bad luck or genetics. Its a question of
what's on your plate.
*------------------------------------------------------*
Let me say a few things about the recently proposed food
"pyramid." The pyramid was the Department of
Agriculture's plan to say that you should eat less meat,
but still eat it everyday. You should eat more grains,
vegetables and fruits, and de-emphasize the meat and
dairy, but still eat it. So, they created a pyramid of
foods.
At the very top, in the smallest part of the pyramid,
was sugars and oils, and that was supposed to be
something you have only rarely. That's why they gave it
the small part of the pyramid. And then, under that was
meats, which you're supposed to have more of than the
sweets and oils, but not as much as grains. Then, I
think, it was dairy, and then under that was vegetables
and fruits, and then the grains.
The visual image was supposed to emphasize grains, but
one problem with it was that it had meats near the top,
so meat looked like the pinnacle of nutrition. Before
they released it, they experimented with turning the
pyramid upside down, so that meat would be near the
bottom, but the Department of Agriculture claimed that
"female consultants" felt it looked unstable that way,
so they decided to keep it right side up.
We knew the pyramid was coming when we released our new
Four Food Groups, and we thought the pyramid was
virtually no better than the original Four Food Groups.
The pyramid, how ever, was embraced by a lot of
dieticians, because it did de-emphasize meat.
The pyramid lasted three weeks. Department of
Agriculture went back to the drawing board because the
livestock producers wouldn't stand for it. They lobbied
very heavily, and it was pulled back.
Spectrum: In my travels or reading I have discovered no
culture in the world that ate a truly vegan diet (no
meat or dairy). Everywhere I have been or read about,
the diet contained small amounts of animal foods, so I
wonder if small amounts might be necessary. Should the
new Four Food Groups eliminate meat and dairy entirely?
Neal Barnard: The Four Food Groups, as we presented it,
wasn't trying to say what the totality of the diet
should be. It only said what the basis, the foundation
of the diet should should be -- grains, legumes,
vegetables, and fruits. Anything else is an option. So
if a person has a bowl of ice cream once a month, that
isn't violating the new Four Food Groups.
With the new Four Food Groups, there's a whole range of
possibilities, some of which are healthier than others.
If you ask me, as a doctor, what's the healthiest diet,
I would say it is a low fat vegan diet, without any
animal products included. It's true that almost all
cultures, maybe all cultures, do have some animal
products in them, although they might vary a little bit
as to what that would be and with the amount. I suspect
the reason is not a nutritional need for it, however. I
really don't think so. This is because animal products
are something that was not part of our evolution as a
species.
As I say in my book, The Power of Your Plate, prior to
the Stone Age, we didn't have the capacity to hunt
animals. We didn't have spears, axes, or bows and arrows
until about two million years ago. Yet, we have lost our
canine teeth that would help, say a chimpanzee, if they
want to get hold of a little monkey and tear it to
shreds. They could do that because they have long,
protruding canine teeth. Those were lost to our species
at least three and half million years ago. So, during
the critical phase of our evolution as we were
differentiating from other primates in becoming the
species we are now, it is almost certain that we were
eating a vegan diet.
Was there some inclusion of insects or something? Who
knows, but we almost certainly must have been vegan,
eating a diet very similar to what other primates were
eating.
All that changed when we acquired the technology of
tools. Once you have the capacity to have something that
was not part of your evolution, your capacity to
regulate it goes haywire. So, in America now, people
have the capacity to eat meat. People tend to crave it,
I think because of its grease content or because of some
other characteristic. People do tend to crave it, even
though they pay a health price in the long run.
The same is true of alcohol. Look what happened to the
American Indian population when alcohol wa introduced.
It had not been part of their evolution, hadn't been
part of anybody's evolution, obviously, and alcoholism
became a very serious problem. The same is true of
sugary foods, cocaine, tobacco -- anything we don't have
built-in mechanisms to cope with. I think that's true of
meat.
*------------------------------------------------------*
If you ask me, as a doctor, what's the healthiest diet,
I would say it is a low fat vegan diet, without any
animal products included.
*------------------------------------------------------*
How do I know that people are healthy without it? There
are studies that have compared ovo-lacto vegetarians to
meat-eaters, and the ovo-lacto's do better than the
meat-eaters do in terms of incidence of cardiovascular
arrest. There are also studies of pure vegetarians
(vegans) -- no milk, eggs or meat -- comparing them to
ovo-lacto vegetarians, and the vegans tend to do better.
I think B-12 is an interesting issue though, because
there isn't B-12 in plants, so where were people getting
that?
B-12 isn't made by plants, and it's not made by animals.
It's made by one-celled organisms -- bacteria, and so
forth. Obviously, as we were evolving as a species, our
foods had a fair amount of natural contamination with
bacteria. You can imagine us picking up root vegetables,
shoots, leaves, and fruits, and so forth, and back then
we weren't sterilizing these things and processing them.
Nor were we brushing our teeth. There has been a fair
amount of research showing that even the bacteria that
live in people's mouths can produce some B-12. Was that
the source? I don't know.
Keep in mind that the daily requirement for B-12 is
extremely small. The RDA is only 2 micrograms per day --
not grams, not milligrams, just 2 micrograms. The actual
amount you need is only about a half of a microgram
daily, and that amount could well have been supplied by
bacterial sources.
Nowadays, in modem culture, everything is sterilized.
Even the miso you buy in this country is all
pasteurized, and it's dead. In Asia, miso is loaded with
B-12 because of the bacteria that are involved in its
production. Meat eaters do get B-12, but my hunch is
that meat probably was not the source as we were
evolving.
Spectrum: There are many different kinds of "vegetarian"
diets. Some types include dairy, some fish, some even
chicken. Can you talk briefly about all of them?
Particularly, why do you recommend against dairy food?
Neal Barnard: I have ten main reasons why dairy food is
not good for health.
The first reason why I don't consume dairy products, and
why I think other people should not, is the fat content.
The fat in dairy products is saturated fat. Now, it is
true there are skimmed milk products: skim milk, skim
yogurts, and maybe one or two low-fat cheeses. But just
on fat alone, you've ruled out butter, cream, sour
cream, ice cream, nearly all cheeses, and whole milk
products. The fat is saturated fat, and you may as well
be eating beef tallow. The fat in these dairy products
encourages heart disease and numerous other problems.
It's a risk factor for some forms of cancer as well.
Number two is the cholesterol content of dairy products.
It's the same story as the saturated fat. Number three
is that dairy products really are not effective in
slowing osteoporosis. This was their big selling point
for years, but studies have been done measuring bone
density, particularly of post-menopausal women, the
group that is at highest risk. There is no correlation
between bone density and the intake of dairy products,
or, for that matter, any other sources of calcium. In
other words, women have progressed to severe
osteoporosis in spite of consuming a large amount of
milk.
Now any first year medical student would say, "Well, of
course, we know that bone density, the calcium content
of bones, is not something you could change just by
eating certain foods. It is hormonally regulated." There
are things that certainly do affect bone density, but
calcium intake probably is not one of them. A recent
study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
showed that this is not only true for older women, but
even for young women and men as well. There really isn't
a good correlation between how much calcium you take in
and the strength of your bones as you reach adulthood.
Next is the milk sugar. The natural sugar in milk is
lactose. It's what we call a disaccharide, a double
sugar. It breaks down in the body to glucose and
galactose. Galactose is a simple sugar that infants can
break down effectively, because they have a variety of
enzymes in the body to do that. As you age, you lose
those enzymes to a degree. Different people lose them
more quickly than others. What that means is that
galactose can have a certain toxicity as you age, and
for women, it attacks the ovaries.
*------------------------------------------------------*
I don't consume dairy products...and I think other
people should not either. I have ten main reasons why
dairy food is not good for health.
*------------------------------------------------------*
Daniel Kramer, at Harvard University, published an
elegant study comparing women with cancer of the ovary
and women who did not have cancer. The differentiating
factor between these two groups was their consumption of
dairy products. Does that mean that every women that
consumes yogurt is going to get cancer of the ovary? No,
but it is elevating one's risk.
By the same mechanism, or a similar mechanism, galactose
is linked to cataracts. It enters the body, probably
through dairy products in most cases, and can be
absorbed into the lens of the eye. Infants who are born
with a genetic defect in their capacity to break down
galactose get dense cataracts within the first year of
life. I believe that dairy products are probably a
contributor to cataracts in older folks. I say that
because there are epidemiologic studies showing that the
incidence of cataracts is not uniform across cultures.
It is much higher in countries where dairy products are
consumed. There are other contributors, such as
ultraviolet B and others, but dairy seems to be one of
the principal suspects here.
Another issue with dairy is lactose intolerance. This is
something which does not affect most Caucasians, which
is why all the Dairy Board advocates you see are all
fair-skinned people, the only people who drink milk.
Asians and Africans and many others have trouble
consuming dairy products; they can't digest the milk
sugar.
Spectrum: Yet, people living in these countries eating
the traditional diet have very strong bones.
Neal Barnard: Exactly. They do not have osteoporosis
with the same incidence that we do.
Milk is the number one cause of food allergies. There
are other causes, such as wheat, corn, and with some
people, soy products, but milk is number one, and any
pediatricians experience would agree with that.
Insulin-dependent diabetes is much more common in
countries where dairy is consumed. The putative link is
that the dairy protein kicks off an autoimmune reaction
in which antibodies attack the dairy protein,
inadvertently damaging the cells of the pancreas that
produce insulin.
Milk is extremely low in iron, and if you're concerned
about iron deficiency, milk is not a food you want to
consume.
Babies get colicky from drinking milk, and they're also
colicky if their mother is consuming milk. We now know
that the cow's antibodies can be absorbed into the
mother's digestive tract, and through the bloodstream
reach her milk, then baby. I believe it was the April
1990 issue of Pediatrics that laid this out and said
that the baby will be colicky if the nursing mother is
consuming milk.
So there are several reasons not to drink your milk.
Spectrum: What about chicken and the different kinds of
fish?
Neal Barnard: Number one, chicken is not a health food
by any stretch of the imagination. The poultry industry
has been trying to capitalize on the criticisms that
beef is now getting and they tell people to eat their
products. But there are several reasons not to.
Number one, chicken has the same cholesterol content as
beef. This always stuns audiences when I tell them,
although it doesn't stun dieticians who write
nutritional analyses -- they've known this for years.
Every four ounce serving of beef has 100 milligrams of
cholesterol in it. A four ounce serving of chicken has
exactly the same -- 100 milligrams of cholesterol. It
can be somewhat lower in fat, but not a lot lower in
fat.
The leanest beef has 30% of its calories as fat. The
very leanest chicken is about 20%. Compare that to
beans, with 5% of calories as fat. Rice is even less,
maybe around 7% or 8%. A 20%-fat food with no fiber, no
complex carbohydrates, and a fair load of cholesterol is
not a healthy food, and that's what chicken is. Even
selecting only the white meat and taking the skin off,
it is not a low-fat food.
What is worse is that chicken and meat displace the
healthy foods in our diet. I mean, if you're eating 300
calories of chicken, that's three hundred calories of
rice or whole grain products or green vegetables that
you're not eating. So it's not just the bad stuff it
gives you, it's the good stuff that it pushes off the
plate.
*------------------------------------------------------*
Chicken is not a health food by any stretch of the
imagination . . . Chicken has the same cholesterol
content as beef.
*------------------------------------------------------*
Another interesting thing, and this is getting press
everywhere, one out of every three chickens at the
retail store has live salmonella bacteria growing under
the plastic. The reason is that every chicken goes into
the slaughter operation after having lived its
eight-week life in a factory situation -- a big steel
building with ten, twenty or thirty thousand chickens
all swimming in chicken feces. Nobody sweeps around them
during their entire life. They're just boxed up and sent
to slaughter.
Salmonella lives in chicken feces, and the process of
slaughter actually tends to push this fecal
contamination into the skin of the chicken. At the end
of the slaughter procedure, their heads are cut off,
their corpse goes through a cold water bath to cool it
down so it doesn't rot, and the water bath...it might be
kind of clean for the first thousand or so corpses that
go through it, but eventually it becomes what CBS News
called "fecal soup."
People get the chicken home, slit open the plastic, and
you know that little bit of juice that dribbles down on
your counter, people think that's chicken juice.
Chickens are not fruits, they do not have juice. That is
the water bath stuff that the chicken absorbed, along
with a little blood and serum, etc. One out of three
packaged chickens has live salmonella. That causes maybe
four million or more cases of salmonella poisoning a
year, and about nine thousand deaths.
I think if people can't wean themselves of chicken, they
ought to leave it on their steps outside their house,
and go outside and eat it, because once you bring it in,
it contaminates surfaces. You can't see the salmonella
bacteria, You can get it on a sponge, and the
contamination of utensils is the biggest problem. The
greatest incidence of salmonella comes from cross
contamination to infants. Three month old babies
actually get more salmonella than anybody else.
Spectrum: What about fish?
Neal Barnard: There are several things about fish. I
don't eat fish, and there are many reasons why I don't.
The good things you can say for fish is that some of the
the species are lower in fat by a long shot compared to
meat and even poultry, and some have a little bit less
cholesterol. Some have more cholesterol, however, like
lobster and shrimp. Some actually are higher in fat,
while some are lower. That's the entire extent of the
good news about fish.
The bad news about fish is that it all has cholesterol
and fat, and the fat is not the kind that anybody needs.
These omega-3 fats that people talk about are also
available in beans. In the American Journal of Clinical
Nutrition, there was a recent series of letters and
commentaries saying that people should probably get
their omega-3 fats from vegetables and not from fish,
because the omega-3 fish oils do seem to have a variety
of negative effects, one of which is that they promote
the production of free radicals. Free radicals can
damage your tissues and lead to cancer.
There is also a contamination problem with fish. The
February cover-story of Consumer Reports talked about
this. The contamination problems with fish are ghastly.
Salmon and other kinds of swordfish are very
contaminated. There are even warnings that women who are
intending to become pregnant any time in the next
several years shouldn't consume several species of fish.
The EDB content is so high, and it is stored up in human
tissues. There was a study at Wayne State University on
women who had given birth to babies. Those who never ate
fish were compared to those who did eat fish. The latter
group, even those who ate fish once a month or more, had
a higher incidence of babies who were sluggish at birth,
who had small head circumferences, or who had a variety
of learning problems.
Fish is a concentrated protein, and if anything we need
less protein. High protein in the the diet leads to
osteoporosis and kidney problems.
You don't need fish.
Spectrum: If it's not a good idea to eat fish and
poultry, and we are no longer consuming wild vegetables
as did the people in traditional societies, do you
recommend a B12 supplement or any other kind of
supplement?
Neal Barnard: I do recommend a B12 supplement for
anybody who, like me, is on a vegan diet. If you start a
vegan diet, you have about a three-year supply of B12 in
your body. But after three years, or even before, people
should supplement with B12. I suggest you take a form
that says "B12" on it, or the chemical name,
cyanocobalamin. Some of the forms that people thought
were active, like chlorella or spirulina, may not have
active B12 in them.
*------------------------------------------------------*
Women who are intending to become pregnant any time in
the next several years shouldn't consume several species
of fish.
*------------------------------------------------------*
If you get a One-A-Day, or any common multivitamin, it
will have B12 in it. You don't need to be especially
careful about it. And, there are vegetarian supplements
made of algae that are perfectly fine. It's not
something you need to worry about or take every day. Get
the smallest size you can. Probably 50 micrograms is the
smallest size the store will sell you, and take it 2-4
times per week. By the way, I don't recommend other
supplements.
Spectrum: You are saying all these things that suggest
radical changes in the way Americans eat, citing several
studies to back up your views. Yet most doctors, who are
supposedly in charge of protecting our health, will be
eating a steak tonight or going out with the kids to
McDonald's. What's the problem? Is the research you are
citing debatable, or is it that it's hard to accept
something new? Why don't people eat this way?
Neal Barnard: I think things are starting to change.
Things change slowly, and doctors are creatures of
habit, and they'll probably be the last to change,
unfortunately. But there are some terrific new faces on
the horizon that are becoming widely accepted, such as
Dr. Dean Ornish, who has done brilliant, carefully
controlled research. He has received a tremendous amount
of attention from the medical community.
People doing work with diabetics, and certainly with
cancer, are getting a lot of attention for vegetarian
sorts of diets.
Regarding being vegetarian, I don't think the common
reaction anymore is that you must be in some sort of
bizarre religious cult. If I'm sitting on a plane and
get the vegetarian meal that I've ordered, the person
next to me will always say, "I'm pretty much a
vegetarian" or "I'm going that way." They want to be
vegetarian. Even if they're not that way, they know they
should be.
Doctors, like everybody else, are subject to the habits
they grew up with. It tends to cause a predictable
pattern -- sort of rationalization and resistance.
There's no doubt about it, however, we're going to win,
and there are lots of reasons. For example, there are
all these HMOs who are trying to give medical care at
fixed cost. It's going to be just a matter of time
before they realize that for every coronary bypass they
prevent, it saves them $20,000. Prevention is the key,
and the two biggest factors are changing diet and
avoiding tobacco.
The National Restaurant Association recommends having a
vegetarian section on the menu. One out of every five
restaurant-goers considers the ability to obtain a
vegetarian meal important when choosing a restaurant.
PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) now
has these "V" stickers for restaurants. They will be
displayed alongside the Visa and MasterCard emblems.
*------------------------------------------------------*
All these HMOs who are trying to give medical care at
fixed cost, it's going to be just a matter of time
before they realize that for every coronary bypass they
prevent, it saves them $20,000. Prevention is the key.
*------------------------------------------------------*
The demand for vegetarianism is there, and I'm very
optimistic, not just about the distant future, but the
near future.
Spectrum: Health am is a big political issue now in the
presidential campaign. Can you comment on the situation?
Neal Barnard: Many people have been occupied with
something that I think is important, but secondary --
how do we have equitable distribution of health care.
That's an important issue, but I think it misses
something more powerful that could help solve the
problem.
Health care costs are simply accumulated health care
bills. The reason you have health care bills is because
you have sick people going to see their physicians. Now,
it is true that about 90% of heart attacks, and a
similar percentage of bypasses and some transplants, and
so forth -- none of these would be needed if people took
good care of themselves. Eighty percent of cancer is
preventable, or at least is tied to identifiable factors
that we know about. This is the National Cancer
Institute's estimate. Thirty-five percent of cancers are
due to smoking and 35% to 55% are due to diet. Other
causes are x-ray exposures, drugs, etc. We can control
these cancer factors if we choose to.
If we do that, we can keep people healthy. They won't
have to go see their doctor, there won't be a health
care bill generated, and the costs to private insurance,
to individuals, and to Medicare and Medicaid could all
plummet.
Spectrum: Doctors will have to become less wealthy.
Neal Barnard: Doctors should become less wealthy.
I think that the availability of insurance has insulated
doctors from their patients. My grandfather, when he
treated someone, might have gotten some vegetables as
payment, and his bills were low. Now, because of the
wide availability of insurance, doctors unabashedly
charge enormous rates because they know that the patient
actually isn't going to pay it. The patient does pay it
right away -- they pay it in the insurance premiums that
have been extracted from their paychecks, but it's been
smoothed out over the course of the year, and the
patients don't really mind these exorbitant fees.
Doctors are driving BMWs and Mercedes. I consider it
unethical, and frankly, it's becoming more grotesque
with time.
What I want to see in the future is a reduced demand for
health care. I want doctors to focus on people that
already are healthy, and ask what they can do to
maximize their health, because, hopefully, there won't
be sick people coming to see them and they need
something to do.
Spectrum: Do we need a new type of health profession,
given what we now know about the causes of disease? You
don't need as much training to help people prevent
illness as to cure it. Why have a doctor, who is trained
in complex operations and other disease treatments, give
people lifestyle counseling on how to stay well? It's a
waste.
Neal Barnard: Also, people like you are doing this.
Through an article you write, you are reaching a lot
more people than I would reach in a typical day. People
like you are the lifesavers, too. You take information
that other people have developed through research and
make it available to large numbers of people. My hat's
off to you and everybody like you who's getting the word
out.
(Dr. Neal Barnard is the President of the Physician's
Committee for Responsible Medicine, P.O. Box 6322,
Washington, DC 20015 USA. Telephone 202-686-2210)
*------------------------------------------------------*
Courtesy of Donald Graft <dgr...@gate.net>
http://envirolink.org/arrs/index. html
*------------------------------------------------------*
Jai Maharaj <j...@mantra.com> *-=Om Shanti=-*
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%
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Marlon E Menezes
Fundametalist interpretations of all religions are the enemy of science
and rational thinking. This includes the bigotry of Babu Ramdan and
the stupidity of "Dr" Maharaj
Dr. Jai Maharaj
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In the article <32183C...@mail.utexas.edu>,
of Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:04:05 -0600,
Bilal <bee...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
> I think the practices you are referring to are
> circumcision . . . but they're very common . . .
Here is some information about circumcision:
[...Excerpts...]
CIRCUMCISION INFORMATION NETWORK
Formerly CIN CompuBulletin
Volume 2, Number 38, 24 November 1995
E-Mail CircI...@aol.com
The purpose of this weekly bulletin is to educate the
public about and to protect children and other
non-consenting persons from genital mutilation. Readers
are encouraged to copy and redistribute it, and to
contribute written material. - Rich Angell, Editor.
WHAT THE EXPERTS ARE SAYING
Contributed by
g...@theorem.math.rochester.edu (Geoffrey T. Falk)
The book "The Joy of Uncircumcising" (2nd ed.), by Jim
Bigelow, PhD, published by Hourglass Book Publishing (PO
Box 171, Aptos CA 95001), has the following reviews on
the back cover:
"This book...adds a new dimension to the argument
against routine circumcision...The evolution of elective
circumcision from a method to control masturbation and
other 'immoral' sexual behaviours to an accepted,
routine medical modality provides an interesting
discussion . . . The psychological and sexual benefits of
restoring the foreskin are expounded..."
- The Journal of the American Medical Association
"[The book] is based on three premises: that infant
circumcision is performed without consent; that
circumcision diminishes penile sensation and therefore
reduces sexual enjoyment; and that techniques of
prepucial reconstruction can restore lost sensitivity to
the glans penis . . . As Dr. Bigelow forcefully points
out, there is little evidence that early circumcision
confers any health gain to the individual in the longer
term."
- British Medical Journal
"Bigelow's book is . . . an important statement on a
theme about which little is usually said, and on which
most of us are ignorant. Urologists should read this
book, which should make them consider alternatives . . .
before offering circumcision . . . and take seriously
the wishes of the troubled patient who asks to have his
mutilation corrected."
- British Journal of Urology
"Jim Bigelow provides a profound service for the general
public, for parents, physicians, and hopefully, most of
all, for future generations of infant boys. In this
multi-faceted, well-researched and clearly written book,
he leaves no stone unturned . . . [It] provides abundant
facts and information necessary to include circumcision
in any discussion of child abuse."
- The Journal of Orgonomy
"In reading this book, one is forced to examine his/her
own feelings about circumcision . . . [It] challenges us
to think about new issues such as men's rights and
foreskin restoration."
- Journal of Nurse-Midwifery
"Most plastic surgeons will be surprised and many will
be distressed at the information and arguments presented
in this book . . . Particularly valuable are the
insights on why some men feel so strongly about the
desirability of the uncircumcised penis . . . It is an
excellent introduction to a subject too long absent in
plastic surgical literature."
- Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery
[...End of Excerpts...]
Please write to CircI...@aol.com for more information.
Jai Maharaj <j...@mantra.com>
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:% Om Shanti %:%:%
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Partha Chattopadhyay
Dear Babu Rambadran,
I have seen a number of your postings. I also want to ask you a question? What's
your problem?
If you are serious about your postings, then you must be really sick of mind and
your uninformed ravings could be really damaging for people who may look into this
newsgroups to have a feel of the societies and cultures about which these groups
are all about.
I suspect that you are really serious and you also do not care that whether you
know or not about what you are posting. Therefore, I feel what you are indulging
in is plain and simple spreading of deliberate misinformation.
The other motivation may be getting a kick by being controversial. But trying to
create controversy by being stupid is real STUPID. If you insist on being so,
please do not attack any person/community with falsity, it kills the joy of
being engaged in a controversy.
I did not want to preach but watching your postings I could not help myself - I
would really enjoy to have you across the table ('ektu nerey cherey dekhtam' -
forgive the Calcutta adda expression).
Thanks
Partha Chatterjee
Kabeer Punjabi
The Amazing Camel Driver wrote:
>
> Islam is built upon one basis, namely, the doctrine (Aqeeda)
> which states that there is only one god, Allah,
> Who is beyond the universe, man, and life, Who created
> of nothing and Who is consequently self-subsistent, i.e.
> He is not created, otherwise He would not be a creator;
> and as Allah is depicted as being the creator, it is
> impossible that He be created. Thus, He is self-subsistent,
> because all things depend for their existence on Him while
> He does not depend on anything.
To the Bengali Nettors from soc.culture.bengali,
I have one question for you. Some time back, someone complained about
Babu cross posting articles on your newsgroups was a violation of your
charter. No question about that.
My question is, this Baba Adam cross regularly posts 10-12 pages long
articles to your newsgroup and I've not seen any such warning from you
guys. Are you enforcing your charter uniformly or selectively?
The same question also applies to soc.culture.tamil newsgroup.
Thanks in advance.
Kabeer
Dr. Jai Maharaj
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In the article <32183C...@mail.utexas.edu>,
of Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:04:05 -0600,
Bilal <bee...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
> Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>> In the article <4v8hrh$t...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>> of 19 Aug 1996 02:00:17 UTC,
>> bab...@ix.netcom.com (BABU RAMABADRAN) wrote:
>>> . . . The islam demands slavery from non-arab people.
>>> This has been beautifully described in Anwar Sheikhs
>>> book. There are so many bad things in islamic......
>>> - bab...@ix.netcom.com (BABU RAMABADRAN)
>>
>> They also prescribe the genital mutilation of boys and
>> girls, as well as the killing and eating of animals.
>> - Jai Maharaj <j...@mantra.com>
>
> I think the practices you are referring to are
> circumcision and non-vegetarian diets. It may shock
> you but they're very common practices in the
> non-cow-worshipping world. I understand your surprise
> though. It's kind of like wiping one's ass is a
> non-sensical practice for a bushman. But everyone
> evolves in time. So keep at it.
> - Bilal <bee...@mail.utexas.edu>
Custom reconciles people to many atrocities. This is
not healthy evolution. As far as worshipping cows is
concerned, one of the main principles in Hinduism is
Ahinsaa, or nonviolence. All life is sacred.
Jai Maharaj <j...@mantra.com>
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:% Om Shanti %:%:%
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Camel Driver
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is a verse of the Quran (51:47) where
God is speaking, may perhaps be compared with modern ideas:
"The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily,
We are expanding it."
Quran, 51:47
'Heaven' is the translation of the Arabic word 'sama' and this is
exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant.
'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present
participate musi'una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider,
more spacious, to extend, to expand'.
Some translators were unable to grasp the meaning of the
latter provide translations that appear to me to be mistaken,
e.g. "we give generously" (R. Blachere). Others sense the
meaning, but are afraid to commit themselves: Hamidullah in his
translation of the Quran talks of the widening of the heavens
and space, but he includes a question mark. Finally, there are
those who arm themselves with authorized scientific opinion in
their commentaries and give the meaning stated here. This is
true in the case of the Muntakab, a book of commentaries edited
by the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs, Cairo. It refers
to the expansion of the Universe in totally unambiguous terms.
Taken from:
Maurice Bucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
'La Bible, le Coran et la Science'
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Proclaim: He is Allah the One and Only (Unique). All are dependent on Him and
he is independent of all. Niether has He an offspring, nor is He
the offspring of anyone; And none is equal with Him in rank.
-- Al Quran, The Book of Islam, Ch.112
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Systems Research, Inc.
Have you heard of Christian Science? see Science and Health by Mary Baker
Eddy.
In article <4v86q4$s...@uuneo.neosoft.com>, z...@holditch.com says...
>
>In article <4v7ffd$o...@newsb.netnews.att.com>, gu...@tlctest.mt.att.com.
>says...
>>
>>In article <adam3Dw...@netcom.com>,
>>The Amazing Camel Driver <ad...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Islam is built upon one basis, namely, the doctrine (Aqeeda)
>>> which states that there is only one god, Allah,
>>> Who is beyond the universe, man, and life, Who created
>>> .....
>>
>>Straightaway, you are misleading -- Islam is built on the
>>basis that there is only one god, Allah ***AND*** that
>>the Prophet Muhammad brought the world the best, latest and
>>last word from the One God.
>>
>>The portion following the ***AND*** is very important, because
>>there are many, many people who believe there is one God, with
>>all the qualities/non-qualities listed in your post, except for
>>each item following the ***AND*** : e.g., that Muhammad was
>>a Prophet or that Muhammad is the last Prophet or that Muhammad
>>brought the best word from God.
>>
>>-arun gupta
>
>Let me add to Mr Arun Gupta. Actually the conviction starts with a
negation.
>"La ilaha illa Allah....", there is NO deity worthy to worship except
Allah...
>
>The negation negates all other forms of systems that lead to disobedience
to
>Islam. The disbelievers, during the time of the prophet, believed in one
>supreme God, but that they also believed that there were intermediate
gods
>between man and God.
>
>Indeed, the disobedience required to all other systems except Islam is
well
>very well documented by the statement of the Qur'an "If any desires any
system
>other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him and in the hereafter
he will
>be among the losers." Since Islam is a complete system and not merely a
>religion, any system, laws, codes, etc. that contradict Islam falls under
the
>category of "any system other than Islam" of the Qur'anic aya.
>
>The last part stating that prophet Muhammed is the last and final
messanger and
>a slave servant of Allah is also part and parcel of a Muslim's
conviction.
>
>Zillur Rahim
>
--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Systems Research, Inc.
Voice: 360-647-7600 FAX 360-647-0889
email: sy...@pacificrim.net
Web: http://www.pacificrim.net/~sysr/
AXHasan
Dear Mr Alam:
1. You just fell right into the trap of the babu. All he is trying to
do is to tease the Muslims, and generate violent reactions from them,
which is the only pleasure he has in life. So do not bother to reply
to his junks. Garbage like these stand out by their own merit, nobody
needs to point that out. (He has by now established the 'quality' of
his writings in people'e minds).
2. You also have been led to use a distorted word 'moslem' as used by
the babu. The widely used, accurate, easy to pronounce and
appropriate word is 'Muslim'. Calling a Muslim a 'moslem' is same as
if somebody calls a Hindu a 'handoo', or a Christian a 'chistin'.
3. You have tried to 'explain' why Muslims 'did not show greater
achievement in science and technology' as proclaimed by the babu
as that 'MOST of them reside in countries that are ruled by brainless
idiot mullahs'. Without going into the subject if the 'mullahs' are
brainless or idiot or not, can you tell us what percentage of the the
estimated 1.3 billion Muslims is being ruled by the 'mullahs' or has
been ruled by the 'mullahs' in the recent past (last 100 years)?
Maybe 10%-15%? So what is your explanation? Self evaluation and
criticism are good and necessary, but should be done carefully and
objectively, not blindly and without knowledge. Otherwise, the self
criticism is only further wastage of time and energy.
-axhasan
'posting not reltaed to official business'
Cross posting was not intended except for the fact that I did not
know which ng Mr. Alam comes from.
Mahmud Alam
In <4vd85c$l...@chnews.ch.intel.com> AXHasan
"mullah" as a figure of speech, in a cynical way to depict these so
called leaders that distort Islam to their own advantage. For me,
whether a muslim is a moslem or vice versa holds little importance, and
I do not find it worth my while to pursue the exact form of address. I
think most people do not distinguish between the two. And I fall into
this category. So please don't waste your time reading between the
lines.
st...@jetson.uh.edu
bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) wrote:
>The Amazing Camel Driver (ad...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>
>: As for the need of things to be created by a creator, the
>: things which the mind comprehends are: man, life and
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>: the universe; all are finite; and consequently they are
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>The human mind also comprehends the set of real numbers and the set of
>rational numbers, both of which are infinite. Moreover, you might like to
>ponder on the fact that the set of rational numbers is a proper subset of
>the set of real numbers. Roughly speaking that means the mind comprehends
>two infinite things onecontained by the other!
>
>I have deleted the rest of your inordinately long post. However, I have
>three comments to make:
If God could be described by the word infinity or comprehended by the
terms like infinity or unlimited or limitless then that in itself would
put a limit on GOD. Because the term infinite is by definition finite
because our limited mind have created this concept.
>Comment 1
>~~~~~~~~~
>Your post is iordinately long because you have repeated the same post
>about 200 times. This shows that
>
>a)You have a lousy editor.
>b)You don't read your own writing before posting it all over internet.
>
>In view of a) and b) may I suggest that you stick to the profession
>implied by your pseudoname, namely camel driving, and leave internet alone.
>
>Comment 2
>~~~~~~~~~
>You have given a number of quotes from Maurice Bucaille's book "The
>Bible The Quran and Science". On reading it I have found that Maurice
>starts with an agenda of proving the divine origin of Quran. So it is
>hardly surprising that he ends up finding such evidence. As for example on
>Page 140 (1979 edition) he quotes a number of verses from the Quran which
>talks about "seven heavens", "seven paths" etc. and then without batting
>an eyelid he makes the following statement
>
>" The commentators on the Quo'ran are in agreement on all these verses:
>the number 7 means no more than plurality."
>
>He then goes on to conclude how the Quran tells us about many possible
>worlds!
>
>No wonder with such broad latitude anything and everything in Quran (or
>in any other religious text) can be made to fit anything and everything
>from bicycle to bevatron.
Why don't you study Arabic language to find out what the word "seven"
means in the context of Quranic language. If you do not have the time to
invest on learning Arabic by yourself why dont you study some of the
renowned non-muslim experts on Quran who knows Arabic pretty well and see
how the have interpreted the word seven in that context.
>Comment 3
>~~~~~~~~~
>Islamic faith like any religious faith is essentially non-falsifiable.
>There may be an Allah or there may be 30 crores of Gods or there may be
>no god! We have no way of knowing for sure. I hope you appreciate that
>your pseudo-scientific arguments only belittles the stature of your faith.
Quran says Allah is the "light of the Worlds or creations." Now imagine
this material world without darkness, if we never experienced the
darkness how could we ever know what light is. The World is never
without Allah, he is too obvious, that's why you can't experience him.
If it was possible that he could be non-existent for a while, then you
could possibly prove the existence of Him, very clearly. However there
are rational methods to prove the existence of God, the best argument
have been given by muslim philosophers like Sadr-al-din Shirazi or Mulla
Sadra, Suhrawardi, Ibnul Arabi, Avicenna and Averroes. Among the western
philosophers you can read Descartes.
>Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Manzur Alam
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4vana1$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> men...@glibm15.cen.uiuc.edu (Marlon
E Menezes) writes:
>
>Fundametalist interpretations of all religions are the enemy of
science
>and rational thinking. This includes the bigotry of Babu Ramdan and
>the stupidity of "Dr" Maharaj
fundamental interpretation of quran by me does not apply. I do not no
why you are writing my name above. By the way, no muslims says that the
quran has any fundamentalist interpratation, as quran is word of god
and no one can challange it. That is what makes "islam an enemy of
science and rational thinking."
Regards,
babu ramabadran
Soumitra Bose
In <321914...@tezcat.com> Partha Chattopadhyay <par...@tezcat.com>
writes:
!!!! . I wish he had the chance with many of the nettors ..Things would
have been so fun !!!!On top of that I would love to see Sugato da of
AnnArbor putting some spice in it .Gee !!! fun galore....
Mahmud Alam
Md ALAM's reply to Babu Moshai
>
> Mahmud Alam Bhai: All the govt of muslims countries follow
the quran for governance and administration. Therfore it is QURAN/ISLAM
>that is running government. So actually it is QURAN/ISLAM which is
>enemy of science and rational thinking.
>Quran??
>
>Regards,
>babu ramabadran
>
>Dear Mr Rambabu,
Please take a minuite to loosen your Dhotti, put down your little
spinning wheel and fold your spindley legs in the lotus position....
I decided not to erase your asinine reply, so everyone else can read
your reply and laugh at your immaturity. You are neither quite
illiterate or totally stupid. I will assume that you are slightly above
both and will therefore try and explain the short coming of your dumb
proposition. If you look back in history, (for this you might have to
go to a library and check out a book --- my prayers will be with you so
that you can do it right, or have someone read aloud to you), during
the golden age of Islam, great achievements were made under rulers that
ruled with the code of life as illustrated in the Quran. The muslim
armies were unstoppable, the achievements in the area of Science and
Anatomy, in Architecture were impressive. But what the rulers do today,
is use Islam to appeal to fanatics to bash the west by sponsoring
terrorism, to spress or subvert the rights of the individual and
claiming that their war is actually a Jihad (Holy War -- in case you
didn't know it)or buying arms to terrorize their own people. In such
situations, nothing can flourish, except corruption and cronyism.
Islam aside, the plight of the third world is not religion, because
no-one follows it in the truest sense, but because of abusive and
supressive goverments. Such actions encourage skilled people to migrate
to other countries where they can work and live in peace.
If Islam was at fault, then India should have been much prosperous than
the cess pool of wretchedness that it is. Because if Islam is against
Science and Rational thinking, all your idol (elephants, six handed
women, and other funny manifestations of whatever that you guys offer
food to with such devotion etc) worshipping religion with its caste
system invented and perpetuated by greed, rapists, scum and other like
minded bastards (GRSB) including the Bhramin caste is not only against
Science and Rational thinking, but against any sense of logic or
reason, and a complete violator of human rights which, by judging by
your scale can not in any way be above or on par with Islam, but lower
than any low life code of life that one could care to come up with.
Which makes life in India totally sucks-donkey, and makes you due for a
face lift, a tummy tuck and totally unqualified to even dare to put
such a proposition before the world.
In parting, my little grasshopper, it is okay to play dumb(or be dumb)
in front of a few friends, but you must be really insecure to flaunt
your donkey eared dumbness to the whole world by being on the net for
some attention.
John Mitchell
BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>
> In <4vana1$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> men...@glibm15.cen.uiuc.edu (Marlon
> E Menezes) writes:
> >
> science
> >and rational thinking. This includes the bigotry of Babu Ramdan and
> >the stupidity of "Dr" Maharaj
> I do not have any interest in quran and therefore question of
> fundamental interpretation of quran by me does not apply. I do not no
> why you are writing my name above. By the way, no muslims says that the
> quran has any fundamentalist interpratation, as quran is word of god
> science and rational thinking."
>
> Regards,
> babu ramabadran
During the medival period, Arab Scientists, Astronomers, Mathematicians
made great Scientific progress and many European scholars of that time
went to the Universities in Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad. The words
for Algebra, Algorithm come from Arabic roots. The current decimal system
used also was based on the system devised by Arab mathematicians.
ALL countries and all civilizations have made contributions in the past
to knowledge and learnt from each other.
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4va6d6$f...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> hw...@ix.netcom.com(Mahmud
Alam) writes:
>
>Dear Mr Rambardhan,
>
>It is not the religion that is at fault for stifling the growth of
>science and technology, but rather the asshole goverments that are the
>main cause. There are many muslim countries in the world that could
>foster research for peaceful purposes, but choose instead to buy arms
>to support a tyrranical goverment. One good example is Saudi-Arabia,
>Kuwait, Iran etc. A large cor of the western labour whether skilled or
>unskilled comprises of moslems.
Mahmud Alam Bhai: All the govt of muslims countries follow the
quran for governance and administration. Therfore it is QURAN/ISLAM
that is running government. So actually it is QURAN/ISLAM which is
enemy of science and rational thinking.
Why to blame governments for shorcomings of Islam and
Quran??
Regards,
babu ramabadran
Brijnandan Singh Dehiya
In article <321BD4...@dial.pipex.com>,
John Mitchell <nj...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>During the medival period, Arab Scientists, Astronomers, Mathematicians
>made great Scientific progress and many European scholars of that time
>went to the Universities in Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad. The words
>for Algebra, Algorithm come from Arabic roots. The current decimal system
>used also was based on the system devised by Arab mathematicians.
Islam started in the 6th dentury A.D. The decimal system and the concept of
zero was invented by Hindu mathematecians like Aryabhatta, Bhaskar,
Varahmihir and Leelavati in the 3-4th century A.D. Algebraic problems like
the solution to a general quadratic equation was solved by them MUCH before
the Arabs came to know of it. Your ignorance is astounding and can only be
compared to Babu's wonderful stock of knowledge.
Aryabhatta calculated that earth revolved around the sun like other
planets, a millenium before Copernicus said the same thing. You, in your
ignorance and self-righteous arrogance, are a fool.
Brij
----
Awal Akand
>Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> The Amazing Camel Driver (ad...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
> : As for the need of things to be created by a creator, the
> : things which the mind comprehends are: man, life and
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : the universe; all are finite; and consequently they are
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The human mind also comprehends the set of real numbers and the set of
> rational numbers, both of which are infinite. Moreover, you might like to
> ponder on the fact that the set of rational numbers is a proper subset of
> the set of real numbers. Roughly speaking that means the mind comprehends
> two infinite things onecontained by the other!
>
> I have deleted the rest of your inordinately long post. However, I have
> three comments to make:
>
> ~~~~~~~~~
> Your post is iordinately long because you have repeated the same post
> about 200 times. This shows that
>
> a)You have a lousy editor.
> b)You don't read your own writing before posting it all over internet.
>
> In view of a) and b) may I suggest that you stick to the profession
> implied by your pseudoname, namely camel driving, and leave internet alone.
Please atleast try to get the "Pseudoname" spelling right. It should be "Pseudonym." This proves that
(a) You do not observe when you see!
> Comment 2
> ~~~~~~~~~
> You have given a number of quotes from Maurice Bucaille's book "The
> Bible The Quran and Science". On reading it I have found that Maurice
> starts with an agenda of proving the divine origin of Quran. So it is
> hardly surprising that he ends up finding such evidence. As for example on
> Page 140 (1979 edition) he quotes a number of verses from the Quran which
> talks about "seven heavens", "seven paths" etc. and then without batting
> an eyelid he makes the following statement
>
> " The commentators on the Quo'ran are in agreement on all these verses:
> the number 7 means no more than plurality."
>
> He then goes on to conclude how the Quran tells us about many possible
> worlds!
>
> No wonder with such broad latitude anything and everything in Quran (or
> in any other religious text) can be made to fit anything and everything
> from bicycle to bevatron.
>
I am very happy and surprised to know that an "Illogical" person like you read the book "The Bible The Quran
and Science." At the same time, you would be sad to know that your reading of the book was like reading a
novel. So you could not get anything out of the book. May I suggest you to read the book again and try to
decipher what are the meanings behind the black letters. For your misunderstanding of "Seven" I would suggest
to learn Arabic language (in 3 to 4 years). If you do not have that much time, why bother surfing the net and
writing senseless stuff, go worship "Ten Handed" and "Four Headed" guys.
Your second comment proves
(b)Your knowledge is shallow.
> Comment 3
> ~~~~~~~~~
> Islamic faith like any religious faith is essentially non-falsifiable.
> There may be an Allah or there may be 30 crores of Gods or there may be
> no god! We have no way of knowing for sure. I hope you appreciate that
> your pseudo-scientific arguments only belittles the stature of your faith.
> Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Did you know that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) had a space travel when he was taken to heaven by angel
Gabriel? But that travel did not take a split second. When he came back it was the same time that he left. Do
you know what this suggests? It suggests that he had time dilation which we can find in the Einstein's special
Theory of Reletivity. It was hard to believe then but not now. Did you know Muhammad (Peace be upon him) had
open heart surgery by angel (three times); which was impossible then but not now. Did you know The Quran said
that there are male and female genders in plants and also said that plants are alive? Nobody knew the
genetics of plants 1400 years ago, or did they? Did you know, The Holy Quran said that the sun has it own
orbit around the galaxy, which is discovered by the astronomers in this century! How come Muhammad (Peace be
upon him) talked about all these scientific stuffs which was unbelievable and impossible to know in those
days. Surely he was not a scientist (by the way, he was illeterate). Only possible answer is-- Someone told
him all these scientific phenomenon and He is One and Only Allah.
So for your 3rd comment I deduce that
(c) You are a type of person, who wants to comment on subject without knowing it.
In future try to talk about the things that you know.
L i t t l e k n o w i n g i s a l w a y s v e r y d a n g e r o u s ! ! !
Supratik Das
Aryabhatta also calculated the value of pi accurately to 3.14.....
pi has come to form the basis of trigonometry and Algebra.
Supratik
Supratik Das
On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, John Mitchell wrote:
> During the medival period, Arab Scientists, Astronomers, Mathematicians
> made great Scientific progress and many European scholars of that time
> went to the Universities in Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad. The words
> for Algebra, Algorithm come from Arabic roots. The current decimal system
> used also was based on the system devised by Arab mathematicians.
Much of the Arab science was derived on Vedic science, e.g. the Arab
Numerals were taken from Vedic numerals. Many good research work has been
done on this. The Arabs improved on them and passed it onto the Greeks
who refined them to their present form. However, Indian contribution to
science is purposefully not acknowledged by the West. So Arab numerals
were basically Hindu numerals. This is not to say Arabs didn't have any
contribution to science. So also did the Chinese.
> ALL countries and all civilizations have made contributions in the past
> to knowledge and learnt from each other.
Nice to hear that, specially from a guy who thinks Indians never had any
Golden Age. You need some serious reading.
Supratik
Awal Akand
Your second comment proves
(b)Your knowledge is shallow.
> Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
days. Surely he was not a scientist (by the way, he was illiterate). Only possible answer is-- Someone told
Mohammad Javed A. Khan
>
> >During the medival period, Arab Scientists, Astronomers, Mathematicians
> >made great Scientific progress and many European scholars of that time
> >went to the Universities in Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad. The words
> >for Algebra, Algorithm come from Arabic roots. The current decimal system
> >used also was based on the system devised by Arab mathematicians.
>
> zero was invented by Hindu mathematecians like Aryabhatta, Bhaskar,
> Varahmihir and Leelavati in the 3-4th century A.D. Algebraic problems like
> the solution to a general quadratic equation was solved by them MUCH before
> the Arabs came to know of it. Your ignorance is astounding and can only be
> compared to Babu's wonderful stock of knowledge.
> Aryabhatta calculated that earth revolved around the sun like other
> planets, a millenium before Copernicus said the same thing. You, in your
> ignorance and self-righteous arrogance, are a fool.
>
> ----
Ok buddy Brij:
can u tell me an example of science in hindu holy book ? I am not
asking about things like love your neighbors, break mosques etc. I am
talking about neat stuffs. There must be some science in hindu holy
books.
In islam there are plenty. In sura Alaq, (Quran) Allah said that the
sky and the ground was together, he separated them out. He also said
that when the universe will be destroyed (Kyamah), the sun will come
within one foot of our head. That is we will be virtually inside the
suns and stars.
Look at the Bigbang theory. Scientists think that the universe was an
egg........ bang....... universe is expanding....... they will come back
to the egg form again.
I am not making the final decision here. Can any hindu give me any
scientific quotation your holy books ?
Cheers.
Mohammad Javed Khan
P.S. Is this not better than just fighting ?
John Mitchell
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On 21 Aug 1996, Brijnandan Singh Dehiya wrote:
>
> > In article <321BD4...@dial.pipex.com>,
> > John Mitchell <nj...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> > >During the medival period, Arab Scientists, Astronomers, Mathematicians
> > >made great Scientific progress and many European scholars of that time
> > >went to the Universities in Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad. The words
> > >for Algebra, Algorithm come from Arabic roots. The current decimal system
> > >used also was based on the system devised by Arab mathematicians.
>
> > Islam started in the 6th dentury A.D. The decimal system and the concept of
> > zero was invented by Hindu mathematecians like Aryabhatta, Bhaskar,
> > Varahmihir and Leelavati in the 3-4th century A.D. Algebraic problems like
> > the solution to a general quadratic equation was solved by them MUCH before
> > the Arabs came to know of it. Your ignorance is astounding and can only be
> > compared to Babu's wonderful stock of knowledge.
> > Aryabhatta calculated that earth revolved around the sun like other
> > planets, a millenium before Copernicus said the same thing. You, in your
> > ignorance and self-righteous arrogance, are a fool.
>
> pi has come to form the basis of trigonometry and Algebra.
I agree. Hindu mathematicians also invented the concept of zero in the
decimal place value which greatly aided the development of Mathematics by
Arabs and Europeans.
>
> Supratik
N. Tiwari
John Mitchell (nj...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
: Supratik Das wrote:
: >
: >
: > > During the medival period, Arab Scientists, Astronomers, Mathematicians
: > > made great Scientific progress and many European scholars of that time
: > > went to the Universities in Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad. The words
: > > for Algebra, Algorithm come from Arabic roots. The current decimal system
: > > used also was based on the system devised by Arab mathematicians.
: > Much of the Arab science was derived on Vedic science, e.g. the Arab
: > Numerals were taken from Vedic numerals. Many good research work has been
: > done on this. The Arabs improved on them and passed it onto the Greeks
: > who refined them to their present form. However, Indian contribution to
: > science is purposefully not acknowledged by the West. So Arab numerals
: > were basically Hindu numerals. This is not to say Arabs didn't have any
: > contribution to science. So also did the Chinese.
: See my comments below. The contributions of Hindu mathematicians is well
: acknowledged. I did not mention it specifically as the thread was not
: about Hindu Science and Rational thinking.
OK. Tell me what were the specific contributions of Arab mathematicians
and scientistss. I am talking about specifics. You have a pretty
Eurocentric view of universe. SInce Arabs taught you mathematics,
you assumed that they were the originators. If that is indeed
true, pl. tell us as to what are there original contributions.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Awal Akand (aw...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Please atleast try to get the "Pseudoname" spelling right. It should be
"Pseudonym." This proves that
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for the correction!
: (a) You do not observe when you see!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quite a leap of logic! It can also mean that my editor does not have a
spellcheker or that I did not spell check the article or I was genuinely
wrong in my knowledge about the spelling.
: >
: I am very happy and surprised to know that an "Illogical" person like
you read the book "The Bible The Quran : and Science." At the same time,
you would be sad to know that your reading of the book was like reading a
: novel. So you could not get anything out of the book. May I suggest you
to read the book again and try to : decipher what are the meanings behind
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the black letters. For your misunderstanding of "Seven" I would suggest :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What Maurice does is to give all the possible favourable interpretations
to Quran by stretching the meanings, in other words (using your
terminology) he reads "behind the black letters" and sees what he wants
to see. His approach is hardly scientific. Given the latitude he employs,
one can prove anything and everything to be divinely inspired.
to learn Arabic language (in 3 to 4 years). If you do not have that much
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know Arabic. However, you seem to suggest that "seven" in Arabic
means something else other that what we commonly understand as the number
7. If that be so, then let us know whether the conventional number system
has any place in Arabic?
time, why bother surfing the net and : writing senseless stuff, go worship
"Ten Handed" and "Four Headed" guys.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have no clue about my religious belief. However, for the record, your
belief in an Allmighty Omnipotent being who gets very angry if he is not
called Allah and who has a hangup about people eating pork and who counts
whether people pray to him in a particular way or not has as much
evidence behind it as the Hindus's belief in Ten Handed and Four Headed
Gods or the Christian belief in immaculate conception or the ancient
Norwegian's faith in the feast of Valhalla! Personally I think that the
ancient Norwegian religion is the correct religion, and anybody saying
otherwise is destined for hellfire! :))
: Your second comment proves
: (b)Your knowledge is shallow.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yet another leap of logic!
: Did you know that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) had a space travel when
he was taken to heaven by angel : Gabriel? But that travel did not take a
split second. When he came back it was the same time that he left. Do :
you know what this suggests? It suggests that he had time dilation which
we can find in the Einstein's special : Theory of Reletivity. It was hard
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
to believe then but not now. Did you know Muhammad (Peace be upon him) had
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What a revealation! I wonder why all the Islamic scholars could not
propound Theory of Relativity before Einstein did? Imagine the glory
going to a Jew than to a pious Muslim. Ah, Allah knows best!
: open heart surgery by angel (three times); which was impossible then but
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
not now. Did you know The Quran said : that there are male and female
~~~~~~~~
It is your faith that such things actually happened. Do not assume that
others will also believe in your faith.
genders in plants and also said that plants are alive? Nobody knew the :
genetics of plants 1400 years ago, or did they? Did you know, The Holy
Quran said that the sun has it own : orbit around the galaxy, which is
discovered by the astronomers in this century! How come Muhammad (Peace be
: upon him) talked about all these scientific stuffs which was
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
unbelievable and impossible to know in those : days. Surely he was not a
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How come all those scientific stuffs were discovered by others and now
Muslims like yourself are claiming that all these knowledge was hidden
inside Quran? By giving special meaning to nebulous words used in
religious texts anybody can prove anything about any religious text.
scientist (by the way, he was illiterate). Only possible answer is--
Someone told : him all these scientific phenomenon and He is One and Only
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allah.
~~~~~
Go ahead and believe in it. I find your arguments ludicruous and
therefore I don't believe in all the claims about scientific truths in
Quran. Islam like all religions is unfalsifyable. Your specious claims
about scientific truths and your laboured arguments only serves to bring
ridicule to the faith you hold dear. However, since it does not bother
you, why should it bother me?
: So for your 3rd comment I deduce that
: (c) You are a type of person, who wants to comment on subject without knowing it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yet another leap of logic!
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
hassan monu alam
Dr. Jai Maharaj (j...@mantra.com) wrote:
: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
: In the article <4v8hrh$t...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
: of 19 Aug 1996 02:00:17 UTC,
[stuff by Babu Ram deleted, no point in responding to nonsense]
: They also prescribe the genital mutilation of boys and
: girls, as well as the killing and eating of animals.
Body piercing is common in the west now. (If you want I'll give you
some graphic descriptions of where rings go :).
If you are refering to circumcision, it is common in the west also.
Female circumcision is an african custom in both muslim and non
muslim majority countries i.e. it is independent of islam.
All carnivores kill and eat animals. Short lesson in evolution:
Herbivores need to eat large amount of plants to get nutrients. Carnivores
eat nutrient rich meat and hence have to feed less. Omnivores get the
benefit of nutrients in meat and survive on plants when meat not available.
Hence the evolutionary acendency of omnivores.
Perhaps you should read more so you can write without letting your xenophobia
cloud your judgement?
: Jai Maharaj <j...@mantra.com> *-=Om Shanti=-*
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Suggest you learn that a little more.
Hassan Alam
hassan monu alam
: In the article <321885...@hp.rmc.ca>,
: of Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:16:59 -0400,
: Mr Moazzam Hossain <hos...@hp.rmc.ca> wrote:
: > . . . -as well as the killing and eating of animals. Is
: > there any living organism in this universe who survives
: > without eating another living things ? Come on Jai.
: > Fish,rice,Plants are also living creatures? Do not misguide
: > the people? Do not mis-explained the bio-system. . . .
: Scientifically, a plant-based diet is a much healthier
: choice.
Low calorie, low fat diets are healthy. High calory, high fat
diets are unhelathy. Lots of Venaspati Ghee accompanied
would be just as un healthy as any excess of animal products.
Meat, fish, and milk are high in nutrients and need to be taken
less than plants.
: Please read:
Suggest you read also.
--
Hassan Alam
John Mitchell
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, John Mitchell wrote:
>
> > During the medival period, Arab Scientists, Astronomers, Mathematicians
> > made great Scientific progress and many European scholars of that time
> > went to the Universities in Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad. The words
> > for Algebra, Algorithm come from Arabic roots. The current decimal system
> > used also was based on the system devised by Arab mathematicians.
>
> Much of the Arab science was derived on Vedic science, e.g. the Arab
> Numerals were taken from Vedic numerals. Many good research work has been
> done on this. The Arabs improved on them and passed it onto the Greeks
> who refined them to their present form. However, Indian contribution to
> science is purposefully not acknowledged by the West. So Arab numerals
> were basically Hindu numerals. This is not to say Arabs didn't have any
> contribution to science. So also did the Chinese.
See my comments below. The contributions of Hindu mathematicians is well
acknowledged. I did not mention it specifically as the thread was not
about Hindu Science and Rational thinking.
>
> > ALL countries and all civilizations have made contributions in the past
> > to knowledge and learnt from each other.
>
> Nice to hear that, specially from a guy who thinks Indians never had any
> Golden Age. You need some serious reading.
If you read my post carefully, I said nobody had a *Golden Age*. That
includes Indians. They only think there was once a *Golden Age*.
>
> Supratik
Dr. Jai Maharaj
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In the article <4vgh93$l...@news1.shell>,
of 22 Aug 1996 02:39:31 UTC,
has...@shell.portal.com (hassan monu alam) wrote:
> ...If you are refering to circumcision, it is common
> in the west also.
If something is "common in the west also", as
suggested above, it does not necessarily make it
desirable or healthy. Circumcision is genital
mutilation with many undesirable effects.
> All carnivores kill and eat animals. . . .
Right. All murderers murder. All killers kill.
Here is some scientific information about food:
U.S. PHYSICIANS SAY
MEAT NOT NECESSARY, ACTUALLY HARMFUL
Recent Nutritional Research Affirms
Superiority of the Vegetarian Diet for Humans
Thirty-five years ago the US Department of Agriculture
said we should daily eat from four food groups: 1. meat,
fish and poultry; 2. grains; 3. dairy products; and 4.
fruits and vegetables.
On April 9, 1991 the Physicians Committee for
Responsible Medicine, a prestigious non-profit
organization active in health and research policy and
based in Washington, D.C., said basing our diet on those
groups not only will not ensure adequate nutrition,
consumption of meat, fish, poultry and dairy products
actually causes disease.
Instead PCRM recommends a "New Four Food Groups."
They are: 1. fruits; 2. grains; 3. vegetables; and 4.
legumes.
This is a very significant development for vegetarians
whose traditional vegetarian diet -- which easily
fulfills the requirements of the "new" groups -- has
been under attack in many countries by physicians
sharing the common ignorance of modern medicine toward
diet.
For example, numerous physicians have insisted that
mothers feed their children meat -- "A real mistake,"
says Dr. Neal Barnard, leading to all sorts of diseases
such as colic, juvenile diabetes, diarrhea and later
problems such as cancer of the colon. Dr. Devananda
Tandavan points out that the average doctor in America
has had almost no training whatsoever in nutrition by
the time he has finished medical school and may remain
ignorant for the rest of his professional life on the
importance of diet for good health.
Though others have made similar recommendations to
revise the American diet, none have done so with quite
the authority of the 4,000-plus member PCRM. The
committee's president, Dr. Neal D. Barnard -- himself a
vegetarian -- is a director of Behavioral Studies at the
Institute for Disease Prevention at George Washington
University.
PCRM members instrumental in formulating the new food
groups include Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Professor of
Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University and
Director of the massive China Health Project.
Collaborator Dr. Oliver Alabaster is Director of the
Institute for Disease Prevention at the George
Washington University.
How did we end up with such a poor choice of food
groups 35 years ago? Inadequate nutritional research
for one thing. But more insidiously, since food guides
were first established in 1916, there has been a
tendency to give animal products a "preferred"
designation. "This element of food guides has persisted
until the present time, due in part to the intensive
lobbying efforts of the food industry, and despite
evidence of the adverse health effects of such foods, "
says the PCRM report.
The situation is similar to the tobacco industry's
continual denial of the harmful effects of smoking. In
response to the four new food groups, a former US
Secretary of Agriculture, John R. Block (president of
the National American Wholesale Grocers' Association and
a pig farmer in Illinois) denounced the committee's
recommendations as the "height of irresponsibility."
Other reactions focused more on the difficulty of
altering the food habits of the steak- and
hamburger-eating American public than on the scientific
validity of the new diet.
PCRM attacks the old, traditional four food groups on
three major fronts. First, they say, "The old food
groups fail to assure nutritional adequacy." The four
food groups were established according to the
understanding of nutritional needs in 1953. Since that
time, the required daily allowances (RDA's) for protein,
vitamins, minerals, etc. have been extensively revised
and expanded. A 1978 study showed that only 9 of the 17
RDA's were met by the typical diet based on the old
groups.
The second problem is that "The old four food groups
fail to adequately address the current dietary problems
of our population." Specifically, the the 1977-78
Nationwide Food Consumption Survey indicates that
Americans who eat diets based on the four food groups
consume an excessive amount of fat."
Studies show that dietary fat and associated
consumption of excess protein is related to breast
cancer, heart disease, obesity, kidney disease and
osteoporosis, to name a few.
Third, states the PCRM, "The old four food groups
serve to misinform consumers about some aspects of
nutrition. Two of the four food groups -- meats and
dairy products -- are clearly not necessary for health
and, in fact, may be detrimental to health. . . .
Populations with the lowest rates of heart disease,
colon and breast cancer, and obesity consume very little
meat or no meat at all."
The PCRM concludes that "The average adult can meet
nutrient needs by consuming five servings of grains,
three servings of legumes, three servings of vegetables
and three servings of fruits each day."
The New Four Food Groups
Whole Grains: This group includes rice, bread, pasta,
hot or cold cereal, corn, millet, barley, bulgur,
buckwheat groats and tortillas. Build each of your
meals around a hearty grain dish. Grains are rich in
fiber and other complex carbohydrates, as well as
proteins, B vitamins and zinc.
Vegetables: Vegetables are packed with nutrients; they
provide vitamin C, beta-carotene, riboflavin and other
vitamins, iron, calcium and fiber. Dark green, leafy
vegetables such as broccoli, collards, kale, mustard and
turnip greens, chicory or bok choy are especially good
sources of of these important nutrients. Dark yellow and
orange vegetables such as carrots, winter squash, sweet
potatoes and pumpkin provide extra beta-carotene.
Include generous portions or a variety of vegetables in
your diet.
Legumes: Legumes, which is another name for beans,
peas and lentils, are all good sources of fiber,
protein, iron, calcium, zinc and B vitamins. This group
also includes the daals in Indian cuisine, pulses,
chickpeas, baked and refried beans, soy milk, tofu, and
texturized vegetable protein.
Fruit: Fruits are rich in fiber, vitamin C and
beta-carotene. Be sure to include at least one serving
each day of fruits that are high in vitamin C -- citrus
fruits, melons and strawberries are all good choices.
Choose whole fruit over fruit juices, which don't
contain as much healthy fiber.
| Number of |
Food Group | Servings | Typical Items and Serving Size
- - - - - - | - - - - - | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Whole Grains | 5 or more | 1/2 cup hot cereal + 1 ounce
| | dry cereal + 1 slice of bread
- - - - - - | - - - - - | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Vegetables | 3 or more | 1 cup raw + 1/2 cup cooked
- - - - - - | - - - - - | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Legumes | 2 to 3 | 1/2 cup cooked beans
| | + 4 ounces tofu or tempeh
- - - - - - | - - - - - | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Fruits | 3 or more | 1 medium piece of fruit
| | + 1/2 cup cooked fruit
Be sure to include a good source of vitamin B-12, such
as fortified cereals and vitamin supplements.
Based on a 1991 article in Hinduism Today
HT's Web site is located at:
http://www.HinduismToday.kauai.hi.us/ashram/welcome.html
The benefits of the healthy, plant-based food culture
contrast sharply the terrorism the animal-eating habit
wages on our body, others and the environment. That is
a future we can all live with.
Jai Maharaj <j...@mantra.com>
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:% Om Shanti %:%:%
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Mr. Big
The Amazing Camel Driver wrote:
>
> >
> >Your title had little, if anything, to do with the article which was
> >about scientific creativity under dictatorial regimes. There was no
> >argument whatsoever that "Islam is the enemy of science and rational
> >thinking".
> >
> >So what is *your* problem, Babu?
> > Islam and Science are OXYMORON. Islam and Rational Thinking
are IDIOTICALLY OXYMORON.
JAI HIND
Mr. Big
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
st...@jetson.uh.edu wrote:
: If God could be described by the word infinity or comprehended by the
: put a limit on GOD. Because the term infinite is by definition finite
: because our limited mind have created this concept.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your statement is devoid of any meaning. How can "the term infinite" be "by
definition finite"?
: Why don't you study Arabic language to find out what the word "seven"
: means in the context of Quranic language. If you do not have the time to
: invest on learning Arabic by yourself why dont you study some of the
: renowned non-muslim experts on Quran who knows Arabic pretty well and see
: how the have interpreted the word seven in that context.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We have seen how Maurice has interpreted the term! Maurice's writing
gives rise to a strong possibility of Maurice working to please the
religious instincts of some wealthy Muslim. In the preface to his book,
Maurice acknowledges his debt to the Saudi King. However, Maurice's
efforts will certainly not entitle him to the respect accorded to a
serious academic work.
: Quran says Allah is the "light of the Worlds or creations." Now imagine
: this material world without darkness, if we never experienced the
: darkness how could we ever know what light is. The World is never
: without Allah, he is too obvious, that's why you can't experience him.
: If it was possible that he could be non-existent for a while, then you
: could possibly prove the existence of Him, very clearly. However there
: are rational methods to prove the existence of God, the best argument
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: have been given by muslim philosophers like Sadr-al-din Shirazi or Mulla
: Sadra, Suhrawardi, Ibnul Arabi, Avicenna and Averroes. Among the western
: philosophers you can read Descartes.
I have not read works of any of these philosophers, so I cannot comment
on them. However, Bertrand Russel's book "Why I am not a Christian"
contains a good summary of the logical "proofs" advanced from time to
time about the existence of God and their shortcomings.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Camel Driver
Quran states :
We (God) created the heavens, the earth and what is between
them in six periods, and no weariness touched Us (God)
Quran 50:38
This statement that the Creation did not make God at all weary
stands out as an obvious reply to the Biblical description,
referred to in the first part of the present book, where God
is said to have rested on the 7th day from the preceding day's
work! Quran clearly rejects such absurd idea of God getting
tired !
There are some 40 verses/reflections in Quran on Astronomy alone.
They're scattered thoughout the Quran. Some of the stunning
verses are below. But before that, let me recapitulate the main points on
which the Quran gives us information about the Creation:
(1) Existence of six periods for the Creation in general.
(2) Interlocking of stages in the Creation of the Heavens
and the Earth.
(3) Creation of the Universe out of an initially unique mass
forming a block that subsequently split up.
(4) Plurality of the Heavens and of the Earths.
(5) Existence of an intermediary creation 'between the Heavens
and the Earth'
Another observation which may surprise the 20th century reader
of the Quran is the fact that verses refer to three groups
of things created:
(1) things in the Heavens
(2) things on the Earth
(3) things between the Heavens and the Earth
[see verses 20:6, 25:59, 32:4, 50:38]
Now some of the stunning verses from the Quran, a 7th century text:
God States in Quran:
(21:30-33)
Have not the people, who have disbelieved (the Message),
ever considered this: the heavens and the earth were at
first one mass; then We parted them [1], and created
every living thing from water [2] ? Do they not
acknowledge (that this is Our Creation?) And We
set mountains firmly in the earth lest it should tilt to
one side along with them [3], and We left therein open
paths [4], so that they may find their way [4].
And We made the sky a safe canopy [5], but in spite of this
they do not pay due heed to its signs . And
it is Allah, Who has made the night and the day and
created the sun and the moon; all of them are
floating, each in its own orbit [6]
[1] From the word of the Text, it appears that at first
the whole universe was a single mass of matter; then it
was split into different parts and the earth and the other
heavenly bodies were formed.
[2] From the word of the Text, it appears that Allah made water
the cause and origin of life.
[3] This shows that the real function of mountains is to regulate
the motion and speed of the Earth. We have come to this
conclusion for the Quran has made this benefit of
mountains very prominent in many places. Therefore, their other
benefits should be regarded as incidental.
[4] "Open paths" are the passes between high mountains and the
valleys and ravines made by the rivers in the mountains regions
and other natural ways that connect different regions on the
earth.
[5] This is a very meaningful sentence. It may mean that the people
may find paths for travelling on the earth, and it may also mean
that the wisdom that underlies the skill and the system of
their creation may guide them to the Reality.
[6] That is, "Those signs which are in the sky".
==========================================================================
Translations/Explanations from Maududi's Tafseer.
==========================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------
QURAN: The Universe is Expanding
----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"O assembly of Jinns (spirits) and Men, if you can penetrate
regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate!
You will not be able to penetrate them except with a
Power. So O Jinn and men, which of your Lord's
powers will you deny? If you try to escape, a flame
of fire and smoke shall be let loose upon you, which you
will not be able to withstand." Quran 55:33-36
Commentary & Analysis:
The word "if" expresses in English a condition that is
dependent upon a possibility AND either an achievable or
an unachievable hypothesis. Arabic is a language which
is able to introduce a nuance into the condition which is
much more explicit. There is one word to express the
possibility (ida), another for the achievable hypothesis
(in), and a third for the unachievable hypothesis
expresed by the word 'lau'. The verse in question
has it as an achievable hypothesis expressed by the word
'in'. The Quran therefore suggests the material
possibility of a concrete realization. This subtle
linguistic distinction formally rules out the purely
mystic interpretation that some people have (quiet wrongly)
put on this verse.
God is addressing the spirits (jinn) and humans (ins),
and not essentially allegorical figures.
To penetrate is the translation of the verb 'nafada'
followed by the preposition 'min'. According to
Kazimirski's dictionary, the phrase means 'to pass
right through and come out on the other side of a body'.
For example, an arrow that comes out on the other side.
It therefore suggests a deep penetration and emergence
at the other end into the regions in question.
The Power (sultan) these men will have to achieve this
enterprise would seem to come from the All-Mighty.
There can be no doubt that this verse indicates the
possibility men will one day achieve what we today
call (perhaps rather improperly) 'the conquest of
space.'. One must note that the text of Quran
predicts not only penetration through the regions
of the Heavens, but also the Earth, i.e. the exploration
of its depths.
The Arabic word 'shuwaz', as used in the original, means
the pure, smokeless flame, and 'nuhas' is the the gross
smoke without a flame. These two things, one after the
other, will be let loose upon the men and jinn, when
they try to penetrate the regions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explanation/Translations from:
'La Bible, le coran et la Science'
Maurice Bucaille
(The Bible, The Quran, And Science)
The Meaning of Quran
S. Abul A'la Maududi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Destination of the Sun
-----------------------------
"(God) subjected the sun and the moon: each one runs
its course to an appointed term."
Quran,35:13
"The Sun runs its course to a settled place. This is the
decree of the All Mighty, the Full of Knowledge."
Quran,36:38
"Settled place" is the translation of the word 'mustaqarr' and
there can be no doubt that the idea of an exact place is
attached to it.
How do these statements fare when compared with data
established by modern science?
^^^^^^^^
The Quran gives an end to the Sun for its evolution and a
destination place. It also provides the Moon with a settled place.
To understand the possible meanings of these statements, we must
remember what modern knowledge has to say about the evolution of
the stars in general and the Sun in particular, and (by extension)
the celestial bodies that automatically followed its movement
through space, among them the Moon.
The Sun is a star that is roughly 4.5 billion years old,
according to experts in astrophysics. It is possible to
distinguish a stage in its evolution, as one can for all the
stars. At present, the Sun is at an early stage, characterized
by the transformation of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms.
Theoretically, this present stage should last another 5.5
billion years according to calculations that allow a total of 10
billion years for the duration of the primary stage in a star of
this kind. It has already been shown, in the case of these other
stars, that this stage gives way to a second period characterized
by the completion of the transformation of hydrogen into helium,
with the resulting expansion of its external layers and the cooling of the
Sun. In the final stage, its light is greatly diminished and
density considerably increased; this is to be observed in the type
of star known as a 'white dwarf'.
The above dates are only of interest in as far as they give
a rough estimate of the time factor involved, what is worth
remembering and is really the main point of the above, is the
notion of an evolution. Modern data allow us to predict that,
in a few billion years, the conditions prevailing in the solar
system will not be the same as they are today. Like other stars
whose transformations have been recorded until they reached their
final stage, it is possible to predict an end to the Sun.
The second verse quoted above (36:38) referred to
the Sun running its course towards a place of its own.
Modern astronomy has been able to locate it exactly and
has even given it a name, the Solar Apex: the solar system is
indeed evolving in space towards a point situated in the
Constellation of Hercules (alpha lyrae) whose exact location
is firmly established; it is moving at a speed already ascertained
at something in the region of 12 miles per second.
All these astronomical data deserve to be mentioned in the
relation to the two verses in Quran, since it is possible to
state that they appear to agree perfectly with modern scientific data.
Taken From:
Maurice Bucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
'La Bible, le coran et la Science'
==========================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------------
QURAN: Orbits Are Set for The Sun and The Moon
-------------------------------------------------
"The sun must not catch up the moon, nor does the night
outstrip the day. Each one is travelling in an orbit
with its own motion." Quran,36:40
"(God is) the One Who created the night, the day, the sun and
the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own
motion." Quran,21:33
Here an essential fact is clearly stated: the existence of the
Sun's and Moon's orbits, plus a reference is made to the traveling
of these bodies in space with their own motion.
A NEGATIVE fact also emerges from a reading of these verses:
it is shown that the Sun moves in an orbit, but no indication is
given as to what this orbit might be in relation to the Earth. At
the time of the Quranic Revelation, it was thought that the Sun
moved while the Earth stood still.
The Arabic word 'falak' has here been translated by the
word 'orbit'; many French translators of the Quran attach to it
the meaning of a 'sphere'. This is indeed its initial sense.
Hamidullah translates it by the word 'orbit'.
The word caused concern to older translators of the Quran
who were unable to imagine the circular course of the Moon and the
Sun and therefore retained images of their course through space
that were either more or less correct, or hopelessly wrong.
Si Hamza Boubekeur in his translation of the Quran cites the
diversity of interpretations given to it: "A sort of axle,
like an iron rod, that a mill turns around; a celestial sphere,
orbit, sign of the zodiac, speed, wave...", but he adds the
following observation made by Tabari, the famous Tenth century
commentator: "It is our duty to keep silent when we do not
know." (XVII, 15). This shows just how incapable men were of
understanding about this concept of the Sun's and Moons'
orbit. It is obvious that if the word had expressed an
astronomical concept common in Muhammad's day, it would not have been
so difficult to interpret these verses. A new concept therefore
existed in the Quran that was not to be explained until centuries
later.
Taken From:
Maurice Brucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
La Bible le Coran et la science
Camel Driver
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Commentary & Analysis:
Explanation/Translations from:
Bakhtiar Shahjahan
BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>
> Dears Netters, you would have read interview of Mr Anwar Sheikh
> and must have realized how islam is cheating muslims Indian
> subcontinent. Not it is time to know how islam was able to kill brains
> of so many muslims world wide. The author of this article has
>snip...snip...snip
Bandar:
You are at it again. A more appropriate newsgroup for your inadequacies
might be alt.religion.islam. We at scb have other matters to tend to. By
the way, brains like yours are certain to have a negative affect on
netcom. Does it occur to you that your superiors at netcom might react
adversely should they be apraised of your dispositions......
Should'nt you focus on your positive contributions to mankind? Our
prayers are with you in uplifting you from the "bandar" jaat.
ind...@iastate.edu
>>
>> In <4vana1$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> men...@glibm15.cen.uiuc.edu (Marlon
>> E Menezes) writes:
>> >
>> science
>> >and rational thinking. This includes the bigotry of Babu Ramdan and
>> >the stupidity of "Dr" Maharaj
>> I do not have any interest in quran and therefore question of
>> fundamental interpretation of quran by me does not apply. I do not no
>> why you are writing my name above. By the way, no muslims says that the
>> quran has any fundamentalist interpratation, as quran is word of god
>> science and rational thinking."
>>
>> Regards,
>> babu ramabadran
>
>During the medival period, Arab Scientists, Astronomers, Mathematicians
>made great Scientific progress and many European scholars of that time
>went to the Universities in Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad. The words
>for Algebra, Algorithm come from Arabic roots. The current decimal system
>used also was based on the system devised by Arab mathematicians.
>
>to knowledge and learnt from each other.
The decimal system (dashmalav in Hindi) cam from India, and so did the
modern so called arabic numerals. I don't know about algebra but
calculas also came from india.
--
Himanshu Nautiyal
Dear Mr/Msrs. Camel Driver,
Please restrict postings of an Islamic nature (especially 17th reposts
of the same material) to the newsgroups which are meant to discuss Islamic
ideas. It serves no purpose to crosspost your items to newsgroups where
the only result of those postings is flame-wars.
I am posting this to all newsgroups since I suspect that more
than one person uses this account and I want to make sure that all
of you see it.
Thanks for your consideration,
Himanshu.
Khaled or Omar
N. Tiwari wrote:
> OK. Tell me what were the specific contributions of Arab mathematicians
> and scientistss. I am talking about specifics. You have a pretty
> Eurocentric view of universe. SInce Arabs taught you mathematics,
> you assumed that they were the originators. If that is indeed
> true, pl. tell us as to what are there original contributions.
>
Among others - the entire study of ALGEBRA was an Arabic
contribution.
"Algebra" = derivation of arabic word AL JABR.
Geometry and trigonometry had major Arab involvement.
Much of Egyptian (pyramid) technology had initial Arab
Mathematical introductions - later many mathematical
concepts were heavily used in Islamic and Moorish architecture.
Khaled.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Mitchell
I thought Calculas was discovered by Newton (Differentiation) and
Leibnitz (Integration). Can you please give references for your
statement.
Thanks
John
>
> --
Mohammad Khan
BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>
> In <4va6d6$f...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> hw...@ix.netcom.com(Mahmud
> Alam) writes:
> >
> >Dear Mr Rambardhan,
> >
> >It is not the religion that is at fault for stifling the growth of
> >science and technology, but rather the asshole goverments that are the
> >main cause. There are many muslim countries in the world that could
> >foster research for peaceful purposes, but choose instead to buy arms
> >to support a tyrranical goverment. One good example is Saudi-Arabia,
> >Kuwait, Iran etc. A large cor of the western labour whether skilled or
> >unskilled comprises of moslems.
>
> Mahmud Alam Bhai: All the govt of muslims countries follow the
> quran for governance and administration. Therfore it is QURAN/ISLAM
> that is running government. So actually it is QURAN/ISLAM which is
>
> Quran??
>
> Regards,
> babu ramabadran
Hi Babu RAM(rabid anti muslim)abadran:
You think if the givernment of a muslim country does something, it is
approved by Quran ? Your idea is utterly wrong. There are a lot of
muslims, but only Allah knows how many of them follows the religion
properly. The idea is do not define Quranic Laws from the action of
some muslim countries' governments or people. You need to do some study
to find out the truth about Islam not just watch people's behavior. It
is Allah who made the universe not people. So, you need darn hard work
to find the true color of Islam. It is not as simple as just people
watching. Get the point ?
MOhammad Javed Khan
Mohammad Noorul Islam
I know Mr.Bhattacharya has replied to this one, but I have
more to say, so here goes:
Awal Akand <aw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
<personal insults snipped>
>Your second comment proves
>(b)Your knowledge is shallow.
We will find out very soon whose knowledge is shallow. So
hang on.
>Did you know that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) had a space travel when he was taken to heaven by angel
>Gabriel? But that travel did not take a split second. When he came back it was the same time that he left. Do
>you know what this suggests? It suggests that he had time dilation which we can find in the Einstein's special
>Theory of Reletivity. It was hard to believe then but not now.
Let's address the theological aspect of it first. The only reference
to this journey in the Qur'an is the verse "SubHan alladhi asraa
bi 'Abdihi lailan min al-masjidil haraaam ila al masjidil Aqsa".
Theologians have had arguments over what exactly this journey was.
Some say it was spiritual, some say it was a dream and some say
it was a journey in the physical sense. Ibn Ishaq has written
at length on this issue, and concluded that whether the journey
was physical or spiritual, it is still a miracle of God.
Now to the physics of it. Relativity would mean that a split
second for Muhammad would be an eternity on earth. Moreover,
the acceleration that Muhammad would have experienced would
have decimated his body by the tremendous gravitational forces
that he would experience.
>open heart surgery by angel (three times); which was impossible then but not now.
"a lam nashraH lak Sadrak" (And did we not open your breast for you?)
is the reference being made. All theologians did not believe in this
open heart surgery incident, but took the verse to mean increase in
learning capacity. This is supported by the following request of
Musa to God:
"Rabbi 'shraH li Sadri" (My Lord, open my breast for me), but
there is no record of Musa going through open heart surgery and
the commentators are unanimous here on the more metaphorical
interpretation.
>Did you know The Quran said
>that there are male and female genders in plants and also said that plants are alive?
At numerous places in the Qur'an, there is reference
to God creating things in pairs. I guess you take it as a
statement that plants have genders. Well, tough luck! All
plants DON'T have mail and female genders.
>Did you know, The Holy Quran said that the sun has it own
>orbit around the galaxy, which is discovered by the astronomers in this century!
Again Maurice Bucaille. Hey, come up with something original.
The sun orbiting our galaxy is nonsense, and I don't know how
you came up with it. Bucaille has greatly stretched the meaning
of "yasbaHoon". There is no meaning of an orbit or anything in
my copy of Wehr's Arabic English dictionary. I don't know where
Bucaille got it.
>(c) You are a type of person, who wants to comment on subject without knowing it.
>In future try to talk about the things that you know.
>L i t t l e k n o w i n g i s a l w a y s v e r y d a n g e r o u s ! ! !
I wish you heed your own advice.
Warm regards
Mohammad Noorul Islam
John Mitchell
N. Tiwari wrote:
>
> John Mitchell (nj...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
> : Supratik Das wrote:
> : >
> : > On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, John Mitchell wrote:
> : > > During the medival period, Arab Scientists, Astronomers, Mathematicians
> : > > made great Scientific progress and many European scholars of that time
> : > > went to the Universities in Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad. The words
> : > > for Algebra, Algorithm come from Arabic roots. The current decimal system
> : > > used also was based on the system devised by Arab mathematicians.
> : > Much of the Arab science was derived on Vedic science, e.g. the Arab
> : > Numerals were taken from Vedic numerals. Many good research work has been
> : > done on this. The Arabs improved on them and passed it onto the Greeks
> : > who refined them to their present form. However, Indian contribution to
> : > science is purposefully not acknowledged by the West. So Arab numerals
> : > were basically Hindu numerals. This is not to say Arabs didn't have any
> : > contribution to science. So also did the Chinese.
>
> : See my comments below. The contributions of Hindu mathematicians is well
> : acknowledged. I did not mention it specifically as the thread was not
> : about Hindu Science and Rational thinking.
>
> and scientistss. I am talking about specifics. You have a pretty
> Eurocentric view of universe. SInce Arabs taught you mathematics,
> you assumed that they were the originators. If that is indeed
> true, pl. tell us as to what are there original contributions.
>
> Nachiketa Tiwari
Please refer to
http://multimedia.ecn.purdue.edu/~kaldirog/islam/civilization.html
Soumitra Bose
In <Pine.SOL.3.91.960821200917.28317A-100000@post> Supratik Das
<d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
>
>
>
>
>On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, John Mitchell wrote:
>
>> During the medival period, Arab Scientists, Astronomers,
Mathematicians
>> made great Scientific progress and many European scholars of that
time
>> went to the Universities in Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad. The
words
>> for Algebra, Algorithm come from Arabic roots. The current decimal
system
>> used also was based on the system devised by Arab mathematicians.
>
>
>Much of the Arab science was derived on Vedic science, e.g. the Arab
>Numerals were taken from Vedic numerals. Many good research work has
been
>done on this. The Arabs improved on them and passed it onto the Greeks
>who refined them to their present form. However, Indian contribution
to
>science is purposefully not acknowledged by the West. So Arab numerals
>were basically Hindu numerals. This is not to say Arabs didn't have
any
>contribution to science. So also did the Chinese.
>
>
>> ALL countries and all civilizations have made contributions in the
past
>> to knowledge and learnt from each other.
>
>
>Nice to hear that, specially from a guy who thinks Indians never had
any
>Golden Age. You need some serious reading.
>
>
>Supratik
>
What is a GOLDEN AGE ??? By what should that be judged and measured???
Soumitra Bose
In <321C1741.5632@your_name.com> "Mr. Big" <Mr_big@your_name.com>
writes:
>The Amazing Camel Driver wrote:
>>
>> In article <4v70bb$u...@dns.city-net.com> ali...@city-net.com
(Jeremiah McAuliffe) writes:
>> >
>> >Your title had little, if anything, to do with the article which
was
>> >about scientific creativity under dictatorial regimes. There was no
rational
>> >thinking".
>> >
>> >So what is *your* problem, Babu?
>> > Islam and Science are OXYMORON. Islam and Rational Thinking
> are IDIOTICALLY OXYMORON.
>
> JAI HIND
> Mr. Big
Big what ??? the posterior????? What is that called in America???????
Himanshu Nautiyal
Denis Wright (dwr...@metz.une.edu.au) wrote:
: size in terms of length rather than number. Thus they tended to develop
: their skills in geometry and mensuration, whereas the Indians, who were
: also good at the latter, really excelled in abstract mathematics -
: arithmetic, algebra, calculus and logic.
What calculus are we talking about it here. If you are using it in
the specialized sense, not just as any way of computation/notation, then
I thought it was invented by Newton+Leibnitz (a whole new controversy there)
but certainly ancient Indians had no inkling of it. All the others yes.
--
Himanshu
John Mitchell
Denis Wright wrote:
>
> <ind...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>
> > The decimal system (dashmalav in Hindi) cam from India, and so did the
> > modern so called arabic numerals. I don't know about algebra but
> > calculas also came from india.
>
Can you please give some references? Mathematicians and Scientists arrive
at similar solutions when approaching similar problems. In a book about
Srinivasa Ramanujan, Robert Kanigel writes that he reproduced the work by
Euler and Jacobi without even realising that those problems had already
been solved. Another good example is that of Newton (Differentiation) and
Leibnitz (Integration) arrive at Calculus from two different angles.
I think there is evidence that the concept of zero went from Indian
Mathematicians to Persian and Arab Mathematicians. I am not sure about
the other ideas. There could have been a two way flow of ideas or the
ideas could have been developed independently. There could also have been
a flow of mathematical ideas from China. I should read up on Joseph
Needham's work.
John
> the way Hindu philosophy even before the Gupta period encouraged the
> Indian mathematicians to think in abstract terms. They tended to think
> arithmetically, if you like - thinking of size in terms of number,
> whereas the Greeks, who wre also excellent mathematicians, thought of
> size in terms of length rather than number. Thus they tended to develop
> their skills in geometry and mensuration, whereas the Indians, who were
> also good at the latter, really excelled in abstract mathematics -
> arithmetic, algebra, calculus and logic.
>
> There is of course nothing in Islam that would make it the enemy of
> science and rational thinking, otherwise there would be no Muslim
> scientists. The topic header is flamebait.
>
> 'bye from Oz,
>
> Denis
> --
> :: Dr D A Wright:::::::::::::::::::::::::dwr...@metz.une.edu.au ::
> :: History Department:::::::::::::::::::::::ph (w) +61 67 732479 ::
> :: University of New England AUSTRALIA::::::::(h) +61 67 751793 ::
Montaz Ali INF
On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Khaled or Omar wrote:
> N. Tiwari wrote:
>
> Among others - the entire study of ALGEBRA was an Arabic
> contribution.
> "Algebra" = derivation of arabic word AL JABR.
But not much contribution was made apart from the naming the subject!
>
> Geometry and trigonometry had major Arab involvement.
> Much of Egyptian (pyramid) technology had initial Arab
> Mathematical introductions - later many mathematical
> concepts were heavily used in Islamic and Moorish architecture.
True but since then not a single mathematician had immerged from Arab Land!
On the other hand India had Sri Nibashi Romanisom, one of the great
mathematician of all time who had a immatured death when he was only 27.
Just few years before his death he was taken to England by famous english
mathematician G. H. Hardy. Surprisingly enough, many Indian do not know this
Tamil mathematician and his deapth of knowledge and contribution in
mathematics. He was the one who found (mathematically proved by series) the
value of Pi=3.14....
Regards
Montaz Ali
Abo Akademi
> Khaled.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
Brijnandan Singh Dehiya
In article <1996082309...@remote-004.une.edu.au>,
Denis Wright <dwr...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
>
>There is of course nothing in Islam that would make it the enemy of
>science and rational thinking, otherwise there would be no Muslim
>scientists. The topic header is flamebait.
True. The guy heading the successful Indian missile program is a muslim. And
a damn good scientist.
Brij
----
Roy Raja
In article <1996082400...@remote-045.une.edu.au>,
Denis Wright <dwr...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
>Himanshu Nautiyal <naut...@cs.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>> What calculus are we talking about it here. If you are using it in
>> the specialized sense, not just as any way of computation/notation, then
>> I thought it was invented by Newton+Leibnitz (a whole new controversy there)
>> but certainly ancient Indians had no inkling of it. All the others yes.
>
> --
>> Himanshu
>
>should have said that Indian mathematics laid the basis for calculus,
>given that both zero and infinity were symbolised, and various types of
>equations were developed. But that is a far cry from saying that they
>were using it. Sloppy writing.
>
>'bye from Oz
Indian mathematician Bhaskaracharya did perform calculations which
suggests that he had knowledge of differential calculus. He was using
the concepts of limits anyway. Check the book "A concise history of
science in India" for details.
Raja
Montaz Ali INF
On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Himanshu Nautiyal wrote:
>
> What calculus are we talking about it here. If you are using it in
> the specialized sense, not just as any way of computation/notation, then
> I thought it was invented by Newton+Leibnitz (a whole new controversy there)
> but certainly ancient Indians had no inkling of it. All the others yes.
>
You are right. Modern day calculus, many people call it infenitesimal
calculus or Newtonian calculus, is the work of Newton (mainly, many say He
was the investor), Leibnitz (partially) and Reiman (spelling may be wrong!).
In fact the ideas of differentiation & integration came from Newton but
latter two have established some important theory in this field. Now if the
concept of differentiation and integration had originated from Newton then no
one can ever come close to him (Newton). Is n't is true that science
would be dead without those TWO terms! Am I wrong ?
Regards
Montaz Ali
Abo Akademi
> --
> Himanshu
>
>
Brijnandan Singh Dehiya
In article <321B7F...@mtu.edu>,
Mohammad Javed A. Khan <mak...@mtu.edu> wrote:
>
>Ok buddy Brij:
>
>can u tell me an example of science in hindu holy book ? I am not
>asking about things like love your neighbors, break mosques etc. I am
>talking about neat stuffs. There must be some science in hindu holy
>books.
>In islam there are plenty. In sura Alaq, (Quran) Allah said that the
>sky and the ground was together, he separated them out. He also said
>that when the universe will be destroyed (Kyamah), the sun will come
>within one foot of our head. That is we will be virtually inside the
>suns and stars.
Such examples are ambiguous at best, Mohammad. In one of his books, Charles
Berlitz wrote about the description of the Mahabharata war. It involved the
sky becoming dark in the day, intense heat being generated and bright
flashes together with thunderous sounds while thousands of soldiers fell on
the ground charred beyond recognition. Dust rose up miles high in the skies
and the lands became barren for miles around the scene. Does this mean
nuclear weapons were used? Obviously not, but the descriptions are very
similar to what happened at Hiroshima.
Similarly, Ram was supposed to have come back from Lanka on a winged
machine. Were there aeroplanes back then? I don't think so but descriptions
suggest that.
One can find many such examples if one reads too much into the text.
What about Gandhari'e 100 sons? The way they were born suggests they were
all test-tube babies since 'something' from Ganghari's womb was taken and
split into 100 parts, each part stored in a sealed vessel for 9 months, and
they all resulted in babies. But such examples are the result of a very
imaginative mind working overtime. :-)
Brij
----
>Mohammad Javed Khan
>
>P.S. Is this not better than just fighting ?
Sure is ;-)
Brijnandan Singh Dehiya
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.96082...@kasper.abo.fi>,
Montaz Ali INF <ma...@kasper.abo.fi> wrote:
>
>You are right. Modern day calculus, many people call it infenitesimal
>calculus or Newtonian calculus, is the work of Newton (mainly, many say He
>was the investor), Leibnitz (partially) and Reiman (spelling may be wrong!).
>In fact the ideas of differentiation & integration came from Newton but
>latter two have established some important theory in this field. Now if the
>concept of differentiation and integration had originated from Newton then no
>one can ever come close to him (Newton). Is n't is true that science
>would be dead without those TWO terms! Am I wrong ?
I wonder if the slow growth of science now-a-days is because no great
mathematical methods have been created, other than computer simulation which
is quite crude if accurate.
Brij
----
N. Tiwari
Khaled or Omar (kg...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: N. Tiwari wrote:
: > OK. Tell me what were the specific contributions of Arab mathematicians
: > and scientistss. I am talking about specifics. You have a pretty
: > Eurocentric view of universe. SInce Arabs taught you mathematics,
: > you assumed that they were the originators. If that is indeed
: > true, pl. tell us as to what are there original contributions.
: Among others - the entire study of ALGEBRA was an Arabic
: contribution.
: "Algebra" = derivation of arabic word AL JABR.
: Geometry and trigonometry had major Arab involvement.
: Much of Egyptian (pyramid) technology had initial Arab
: Mathematical introductions - later many mathematical
: concepts were heavily used in Islamic and Moorish architecture.
: Khaled.
The roots of the word algebra are not a proof that
Arabs were inventors or masters of algebra. I
want you tell me as what is it about algebra, that
was discovered by the arabs.
Going back to trigonometry, do you know that much
before all the arabs bloomed into prominence the
Indians were aware of Sine, Cosine. They had expressions
for the the expansion of Sine and Cosine too. These
are pretty well recorded in texts. I can dig out some
refs. if you like. But I am still waiting for you
to tell me as to how is it that Arabs were masters of
algebra.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
N. Tiwari
Brijnandan Singh Dehiya (b...@merle.acns.nwu.edu) wrote:
: In article <1996082309...@remote-004.une.edu.au>,
: Denis Wright <dwr...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
: >
: >There is of course nothing in Islam that would make it the enemy of
: >science and rational thinking, otherwise there would be no Muslim
: >scientists. The topic header is flamebait.
: True. The guy heading the successful Indian missile program is a muslim. And
: a damn good scientist.
People like Abdul Kalam will always exist. We could have a
Galileo, despite all the official positionings of the Vatican.
We could have an Omar Khayaam despite the fact that Islam
clearly prohibits the poetry as done by him. In fact, Khayaam
was prosecuted for his writings. An Abdul Kalam does not
mean that Islam is conducive to the growth of science and
rational thought. Rather it shows, that the magnificent
human spirit finds its ways in even the most trying circumstances.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Arun Gupta
Denis Wright <dwr...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
>Khaled or Omar <kg...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Among others - the entire study of ALGEBRA was an Arabic
>> contribution.
>> "Algebra" = derivation of arabic word AL JABR.
>
>Are you quite sure about this? - not the derivation of the word, but
>that the entire study of algebra was Arabic? The derivation of the word
>is not proof of anything, though it may be a pointer. The Arabs
>themselves referred to what the Europeans called "Arabic" notation as
>"Indian" notation - acknowledging their debt to India. The Arabs were
>great transmitters of culture, but if you examine the knowledge of
>algebra in Gupta times, it is quite clear that it was very well advanced
>in India at the time. I simply have not seen a reference to advanced
>Arabic algebra which predates that of India - but I'm prepared to stand
>corrected if my information is incorrect.
Excuse me if I get this wrong, it is purely from memory of several years
ago. The spellings are also probably wrong.
The mathematician with surname Al-Khwarizmi (I guess he was
from Khwarizm, now in Uzbekistan).
wrote a book "Al Jabr wal muqabala" or something of the sort, from which
we get the words "algebra" and "algorithm" (from the author's
name).
However, the book is not an exposition of new results, rather,
it is a textbook; and large parts are based on a Sanskrit work
that I cannot remember the name of. It is this book which brought
the concepts to Europe (as you might imagine, textbooks are more
likely to do this).
-arun gupta
Hmm, the American Heritage gives :
algorithm <- algorism <-
Middle English algorisme < Old French < Medieval Latin algorismus,
after Muhammad ibn-Musa Al-Kharzimi (780-850?).
so, it appears I have the name somewhat wrong, but then, the American
Heritage isn't the most accurate of references.
ind...@iastate.edu
In article <321D1C...@ix.netcom.com>,
>> OK. Tell me what were the specific contributions of Arab mathematicians
>> and scientistss. I am talking about specifics. You have a pretty
>> Eurocentric view of universe. SInce Arabs taught you mathematics,
>> you assumed that they were the originators. If that is indeed
>> true, pl. tell us as to what are there original contributions.
>>
>
>contribution.
>"Algebra" = derivation of arabic word AL JABR.
Name does not tell you anything. There are lot of words which can sound
similar in different languages. Is AL FRED arabic name? Is AL COHAL also
arabic name?
>Geometry and trigonometry had major Arab involvement.
>Much of Egyptian (pyramid) technology had initial Arab
>Mathematical introductions - later many mathematical
>concepts were heavily used in Islamic and Moorish architecture.
>Khaled.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
Supratik Das
On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Ram Selvarajah wrote:
> When Physics teachers teach Optics in science classes, they never fail to
> mention the fact that white light consists of seven colours and the theory
> was invented by Sir Isac Newton. (The famous seven colur rotating disc
> experiment). But this invention was there in Hinduism long time before
> Newton was born. The Hindu god sun's statue is represented by a person
> driving a charriot driven by seven horses. The seven horses represents
> seven colours and the Sun god , the driver of the charriot, represnts the
> white colour.
> The Hindu almenac calculates the Solar and Lunar Eclipses occuring during
> the year to a great degree of accuracy. It also mentions the Umbral and
> Penumbral areas.
> The theory of Resonance ( thinking in the same wave length) was and is
> being practised by Hindu Rishies. They could vary their freuency to match
> any persons natural frequency, through meditation and thus could read
> their minds.
> Hinduism is a scientific relegion. The waekness of the relegion is that
> the concepts are not clearly explained to the people. There is no
> Religious Communism in Hinduism.
I think the main reason why culturally we have come to such a pass is the
lack in proper continuity through history. For the last 1000 years we
have been centrally ruled by Muslims and British, none of whom encouraged
science or had any understanding of the Hindu almenac. The muslims
didn't do it because unlike the civilized Arabs the Turks, Afghans
or Pathans had hardly any understanding of science. The British on
the other hand deemed industrial dependency vital for their control on
Indians. Although they were responsible for setting up many leading
Universities their intention was not to spur scientific progress
in Indian society. Scientists are now discovering that Yoga, Ayurveda,
etc are not gibberish. The greatest danger is that the West in collusion
with domestic sycophants have for long established a theory that
scientifically or industrially we had always been backward. The notion is
so deeply embedded that nettors like John Mitchell openly say on the net
that "Indians didn't have any golden age", etc. Latest studies have found
out that Indian and Chinese science were the forerunners and the basis of
most of the Arabic and Greek achievements. Now that we are free once
again to think for ourself, it is time for us to catch up with the World
or we face the danger of loosing out on the third industrial revolution
that is now taking place and giving the West one more chance to deem us a
backward culture.
>
>
>
Supratik
Supratik Das
On 23 Aug 1996, Brijnandan Singh Dehiya wrote:
> In article <1996082309...@remote-004.une.edu.au>,
> Denis Wright <dwr...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
> >There is of course nothing in Islam that would make it the enemy of
> >science and rational thinking, otherwise there would be no Muslim
> >scientists. The topic header is flamebait.
> True. The guy heading the successful Indian missile program is a muslim. And
> a damn good scientist.
Abdul Kalam, the scientist in concern, was born a Muslim but is currently
atheist. This is just to keep the records straight.
> Brij
Supratik
Brijnandan Singh Dehiya
In article <4vkq40$e...@news.iastate.edu>, <ind...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Among others - the entire study of ALGEBRA was an Arabic
>>contribution.
>>"Algebra" = derivation of arabic word AL JABR.
>
>Name does not tell you anything. There are lot of words which can sound
>similar in different languages. Is AL FRED arabic name? Is AL COHAL also
>arabic name?
*laugh* I never get tired of Indira's wit :-). (Though she CAN be wrong
often)
Indira, Algebra DID originate from Al-Jabr since the euros got the concept
from the arabs, it is not unlikely that they borrowed the name of the
concept too.
Now, Al Fred and Al Cohol, I am not sure about <chuckle>
Brij
----
Supratik Das
On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Montaz Ali INF wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Khaled or Omar wrote:
>
> > N. Tiwari wrote:
> >
> > Among others - the entire study of ALGEBRA was an Arabic
> > contribution.
> > "Algebra" = derivation of arabic word AL JABR.
>
> But not much contribution was made apart from the naming the subject!
>
> >
> > Geometry and trigonometry had major Arab involvement.
> > Much of Egyptian (pyramid) technology had initial Arab
> > Mathematical introductions - later many mathematical
> > concepts were heavily used in Islamic and Moorish architecture.
>
> True but since then not a single mathematician had immerged from Arab Land!
> On the other hand India had Sri Nibashi Romanisom, one of the great
> mathematician of all time who had a immatured death when he was only 27.
> Just few years before his death he was taken to England by famous english
> mathematician G. H. Hardy. Surprisingly enough, many Indian do not know this
> Tamil mathematician and his deapth of knowledge and contribution in
> mathematics. He was the one who found (mathematically proved by series) the
> value of Pi=3.14....
I think you are talking about Ramanujam.
> Montaz Ali
> Abo Akademi
Supratik
Ram Selvarajah
Supratik Das
On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Mohammad Javed A. Khan wrote:
> can u tell me an example of science in hindu holy book ? I am not
> asking about things like love your neighbors, break mosques etc. I am
> talking about neat stuffs. There must be some science in hindu holy
> books.
I can give you numerous examples of ancient Indian/Hindu science not
necessarily in religious texts. However, there is a precondition. Your
ineterst has to be genuine and not with the intention of trying to prove
whether Muslims were smarter than Hindus and vice-versa. Although, Arabs
never ruled in India their civilization was a hundred times adavanced
compared to the Turks, Afghans or Pathans. So there contribution to
science is accepeted. What is now being investigated is what were the
Indian and Chinese contributions which hasn't been acknowledged. Let me
know if you are interested. For the moment I'll give you two examples.
1) Viswharup of Sri Krishna- This is the form he showed Arjun during the
battle of Kurukshetra and no body else saw it. What Arjun saw was that
evrything right from the planets to the tiniest creature emerged from him
and returned into him. His size increased until it gradually enveloped
the whole universe and he said "I am He, I am in everything that you see
around you". This has been interpretated to mean the Big bang theory
wherein as you mentioned the creator or source of energy explodes and
gives rise to everything right from the stars to the minutest creature and
then returns to him. That is why Oppenheimer quoted the Gita after
the first nuclear explosion because according to him he could see in
it the same power of the creator as in Arjuns Vishwarup darshan of
Krishna. This is the basis of Hindu worship of every form
and Hindu belief in moksha. If there is 'He' in every form then you can
worship 'Him' in any form. As the ultimate aim of the creation is to merge
in the creator (according to Big Bang Theory) hence the need for moksha
or salvation from the cycle of birth and death. Why the do we cycle in
birth and death? This is because matter is indestrutable. When a person
dies the two parts that constitutes him i.e. the soul and the form have
different fates. Hindus burn the form as the form is the creation of the
panchbhuts (five elements) and hence by burning it you return it to its
components, again the panchbhut. The other component, soul, which Western
science is gradually comprehending is the energy that comes from the
creator and hence when unable to return to the creator must take another
form. Hence the concept of reincarnation. However, ultimately it has to
merge into the creator.
2) I can't go into the details about this one on this forum, so I'll give
you a very brief summary. Hindus believe that civilization goes in a cycle
from Satya yug to Kali Yug and each stage ends with a calamity. We now
know that the earth goes through ice ages which destroys almost
everything. Those that survive pass onto the next stage. Calculations
have shown that the ice ages take place at a definite interval of time
and depends on the position of the constallations. The position of the
constellations at the end of each Yug is mentioned in Hindu scriptures
and it has been found to be the same as that of the ice ages. More
research is currently underway to evaluate the accuracy of such predictions.
If you want to further study the contribution of ancient Indians/Hindus
let me know and I'll give you some references.
> I am not making the final decision here. Can any hindu give me any
> scientific quotation your holy books ?
I hope I have partially answered your question.
Other areas can be listed as the following:
1) astronomy
2) astrology (inaccurate science IMO, I can explain why)
3) Medicine (Ayurveda and Surgery - Yunani system is also derived from it)
4) Metallurgy
5) Architecture
6) Yoga
7) Last but not the least spirituality which IMO is an abstract science
like theoretical physics, the only difference is in the former you
rationally argue and then try to prove it through experience and in the
latter you rationally argue and then try to prove it through mathematical
calculations.
> Cheers.
> Mohammad Javed Khan
Regards,
Supratik
Khaled or Omar
> > Among others - the entire study of ALGEBRA was an Arabic
> > Much of Egyptian (pyramid) technology had initial Arab
> > Mathematical introductions - later many mathematical
> > concepts were heavily used in Islamic and Moorish architecture.
Momtaz Ali INF wrote:
> True but since then not a single mathematician had immerged from Arab Land!
> On the other hand India had Sri Nibashi Romanisom, one of the great
> mathematician ....(deleted)
True but India's population of 1000 million against
about 50 million of entire Arab Land !!
Arab mathematical rennaisance created an entire
Civilization, not just random math "gurus".
Khaled~~~~
Satya Prabhakar
Denis Wright wrote:
>
> There is of course nothing in Islam that would make it the enemy of
> science and rational thinking, otherwise there would be no Muslim
> scientists. The topic header is flamebait.
You are right. There is nothing in Islam that prohibits rational
thinking; at the same time, there isn't anything that encourages it
either.
Most religions (Islam being one of them) focused solely on man's
equation with God and related topics such as rectitude, morality, so
on.
Based on my meager understanding of world religions, it appears that
it is only Hinduism and its offshoots that have broadened their focus
to understanding the human condition and codifying the principles that
seem to hold across space and time. For the record, I am a Hindu and
until I started learning about different various faiths, never really
cared for it.
As an example, Hinduism identified at least 3 paths to salvation:
1. prayer / love / meditation towards God,
2. intellectual inquiry / enlightenment / rational dialectic /
understanding
3. effort / work / focused concentration on task at hand
Based on one's station in life, he or she can choose one or more of
these paths to attain salvation. I think when it says 'salvation', it
really means a 'state of bliss without anxiety, anguish and agony'.
So, I feel that the way Hinduism has evolved, it ended up endorsing
free thinking as one way to achieve eternal happiness.
But then, that is just one man's opinion. Comments?
satya
John Mitchell
Montaz Ali INF wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Khaled or Omar wrote:
>
> > N. Tiwari wrote:
> >
> > Among others - the entire study of ALGEBRA was an Arabic
> > "Algebra" = derivation of arabic word AL JABR.
>
>
> >
> > Much of Egyptian (pyramid) technology had initial Arab
> > Mathematical introductions - later many mathematical
> > concepts were heavily used in Islamic and Moorish architecture.
>
It should be Srinivasa Ramanujan. There was a Channel 4/ PBS documentary
about him. I think you can get the video from PBS/ WGBH, library or most
educational institutions.
> mathematician of all time who had a immatured death when he was only 27.
> Just few years before his death he was taken to England by famous english
> mathematician G. H. Hardy. Surprisingly enough, many Indian do not know this
> Tamil mathematician and his deapth of knowledge and contribution in
> mathematics. He was the one who found (mathematically proved by series) the
> value of Pi=3.14....
>
> Regards
>
> Montaz Ali
> Abo Akademi
>
> > Khaled.
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
John Mitchell
N. Tiwari wrote:
>
> Brijnandan Singh Dehiya (b...@merle.acns.nwu.edu) wrote:
> : In article <1996082309...@remote-004.une.edu.au>,
> : >
> : >There is of course nothing in Islam that would make it the enemy of
> : >science and rational thinking, otherwise there would be no Muslim
> : >scientists. The topic header is flamebait.
>
> : a damn good scientist.
>
> Galileo, despite all the official positionings of the Vatican.
> We could have an Omar Khayaam despite the fact that Islam
> clearly prohibits the poetry as done by him. In fact, Khayaam
> was prosecuted for his writings. An Abdul Kalam does not
> mean that Islam is conducive to the growth of science and
> rational thought. Rather it shows, that the magnificent
> human spirit finds its ways in even the most trying circumstances.
Abdus Salam did his work in London and Trieste. I wouldn't call it trying
circumstances.
John
>
> --
> Nachiketa Tiwari
Khaled or Omar
Supratik Das wrote:
> Abdul Kalam, the scientist in concern, was born a Muslim but is currently
> atheist. This is just to keep the records straight.
Here is the conclusion to this thread:
ATHEISM is FRIEND of SCIENCE and RATIONAL THINKING !!
Khaled
John Mitchell
Supratik Das wrote:
> lack in proper continuity through history. For the last 1000 years we
> have been centrally ruled by Muslims and British, none of whom encouraged
> science or had any understanding of the Hindu almenac. The muslims
> didn't do it because unlike the civilized Arabs the Turks, Afghans
> or Pathans had hardly any understanding of science. The British on
> the other hand deemed industrial dependency vital for their control on
> Indians. Although they were responsible for setting up many leading
> Universities their intention was not to spur scientific progress
> in Indian society. Scientists are now discovering that Yoga, Ayurveda,
> etc are not gibberish. The greatest danger is that the West in collusion
> with domestic sycophants have for long established a theory that
> scientifically or industrially we had always been backward. The notion is
> so deeply embedded that nettors like John Mitchell openly say on the net
> that "Indians didn't have any golden age", etc. Latest studies have found
I have said many times, all countries and civilizations have contributed
in various ways, to knowledge and culture. It was not always one way. The
cultural and knowlege diffusion has been both ways.
Britain also was supposed to have a *Golden Age* from Newton to Darwin.
The issue is not that. For most people of Britain of that time, life was
short, nasty and brutal. Many were sent to penal colonies in the Americas
and Australia. Many immigrated for better opportunities. Countless
atrocities and crimes against humanity were committed against their own
people as well people of other countries.
We live in One World. Even if one person dies, or if their human rights
are violated, we are all losers.
Look at Nelson Mandela. I don't think, I could have been as forgiving as
him, after the way he was treated (as well as most people of South
Africa). If you are a leader, you also have to think about the fate of
the country as at present but also about the fate of future generations.
It is very easy to retaliate for past injustices, but it takes a
courageous man to say "Let bygones be bygones, Let us work together".
You should rember the past, learn from past, but past is no dwelling
place. If the Japanese after the war with most of their cities flattened,
economy in ruins had thought that they were going to teach the American
Occupation Army a bitter lesson, the result would have been a disaster
for both sides. Instead the Japanese concentrated all their efforts and
energies into rebuilding the economy. There were other choice other than
that for them to survive. They didn't plan to be the 2nd largest economy
in the world, but they wanted to produce goods and services people wanted
to buy. Rest, of course, is history.
keysar@ppp
I cannot understand how a Hindu can throw stones when he is
living in such a fragile glass house.
My friend, how can you as a hindu take issue with Islam's
position on women when your religion requires the woman to burn
herself at the bier of her husband or live in disgrace for the
rest of her life. Talking about rationality, please explain
the rationale behind bestial imagery carved at many hindu
temples. Explain the rationale behind ganesha! Can you
explain why hindus also worship the penis and the vulva? Or
the edible, but recently turned insane cow?
Truly ridiculous.
Anyway, to deal with your particular comments. Jihad is a
struggle beginning with yourself and extending to fighting
others who would create obstacles to peace. Islam is peace and
tranquillity, Jihad is the branch of Islam which would remove
any obstacles to harmonious life with others and with nature.
Very simple.
Polygamy, not polyandry. Tell me, what is happening in India
at the moment, please explain why fathers of girls are
kidnapping young men and forcing them to marry their daughters?
Explain to me why a woman in Western society would resort to
prostitution or to having an affair or to starring in
pornography. If she was able to marry an able person who would
provide for her, she would not resort to any of this. Also
tell me which religious book limits the number of wives to one?
None, unless it is a religion you invented in this century!
Islam limits the number of wives to four.
Women have an excellent status in Islam, Islam gave them rights
above any other religion, and in terms of giving them rights,
to the unitiated who would objectively look at these rights,
they may actually appear in excess of the rights given to men.
Do not forget, that as long as she has a living male relative,
it is his duty to care and provide for her, regardless of her
personal wealth.
Slaves, no religion bans slavery, Hinduism in particular has
two classes which are far worse than slavery. You have the
untouchables and the non hindus.
Islam, in fact emancipated the slave. It made it a religious
observance to actually free slaves. Freeing slaves is a also
an expiation for sins, it is an act which brings a Muslim
closer to God. Islam in effect abolished slavery.
Religious leaders, as fallible as I am, if you care to read
when the old women stood up in the mosque to rebuke Omar
(who was the head of the Muslim state at that time) and correct
him when he made a mistake in a matter relating to dowry.
Talking about Dowry, tell me, why does the hindu father of the
bride have to give the dowry to the man to take his daughter
away (whom he regards as a burden)?
Talaq, western culture has finally realised that divorce is
inevitable. Of course the Hindu way is to conveniently kill
the unwanted wife. To you that may be kinder than a divorce.
To me, let her go, pay the maintenance, and pray that God
grants her a husband better than you.
Science, we will bounce back - God willing -
bab...@ix.netcom.com(BABU RAMABADRAN) wrote:
>In <adam3Dw...@netcom.com> ad...@netcom.com (The Amazing Camel
>Driver) writes:
>>
>>In article <4v70bb$u...@dns.city-net.com> ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah
>McAuliffe) writes:
>>>
>>>Your title had little, if anything, to do with the article which was
>>>about scientific creativity under dictatorial regimes. There was no
>>>argument whatsoever that "Islam is the enemy of science and rational
>>>thinking".
>>>
>>>So what is *your* problem, Babu?
>
>
> My problem with islam is lack or freedom given to muslims to
>think rationally. The article I posted describe how the islamic
>countries have failed to make any contribution to science and
>technology. Why it is so that the islamic countires do not exist on the
>texhnological map of the world. I have reposted my article so that you
>can read yourself what the author of the article is describing.
>Moreever, I consider the following reasons why it is difficult to be
>muslman and rational thinker at same time. No doubt some muslmans have
>tried to think rationally, but they then beocme enemies of the other
>muslims and ( islam in general).
>
> The biggest reason for lack of rationality among muslims is islam is
>quran itself. What ever has been written in Quran cannot be challanged
>by muslims. If muslims challange islam, they do not remain muslims any
>more.
> The islam demands slavery from non-arab people. This has been
>beautifully described in Anwar Sheikhs book. There are so many bad
>things in islamic society like
>
>1. Jehad
>2. Polygamy
>3. Poor status of women
>4. Slavery
>6. Preminence of Religious leader ( FATWAS ) etc.
>7. Talaq
>
>
> If you carefully analyze above points, you will not that islam is
>indeed irrational.
> What is rationality of Jehad ( except of religious fanaticism)
> The polygamy is also solely due to quran and Sharia
>
> Islam promotes slavery which is the worst thing that a human
>society can have. Islam promotes exploitation of one person another.
>
> What is rational basis of talaq. Why should a man should be free
>to give talaq only by uttering talaq three times.
>
> No coming to issue of FATWAS, if you are rational thinker ,
>then you have no place in islam, becaue you cannot challange quran. Any
>mullah can issue a FATWA which can override results of rational
>thinking.
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Jeremiah McAuliffe/ali...@city-net.com
>>>***************************************
>>>Visit Dr. Jihad's! Page 'O Heavy Issues
>>>http://www.city-net.com/~alimhaq/miaha.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>Mr.Babu is a Hindu Fanatic Nationalist who agrees with
>>the infamous racist hindu nationalist Bal Thackeray of India
>>that the same will happen to the Muslims of India that happened
>>to the Jews of Nazi Germany.
>
> Any muslims will call me fanatic/nazist/facist because I expose
>islam and condemn islamic fundamentalist. After all india is my country
>and It is my duty to think good of my country. If indians will not
>think of India, who else will think. Therefore I accept your comments
>gracefully.
>
> Yes, we need law abiding citizens in India. India has no place
>for islamic mujaheedens, muslims fanatics, islamic fundamentalists and
>law breaking muslims. All these anti-national elements will be firmly
>dealt with in India. Therefore muslims should start denouncing islamic
>fundamentalism and learn to live under rational laws. Did I say
>anything wrong or any muslim challanges my wishes????????????
>
>Regards,
>babu ramabadran
>
>
> Readers please read the following article and try to analyze is
>it not right to say that islam is enemy of science and rational
>thinking ( Or more accurately, islam is enemy of scientists and
>rational thinkers)
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>Living in limbo
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>By Mazdak
>
>WHEN did you last hear of a Pakistani scientist or engineer conceive,
>invent or design something new, something that extends the horizons of
>human knowledge?
>
>Apart from the officially neglected Dr Abdus Salam the only Nobel
>laureate for any of the sciences in the Muslim world, Professor
>Salimuzaman
>Siddiqui, Dr Parvez Hoodhboy and Dr Ata-ur- Rehman, I cannot think of a
>single innovative and original Pakistani scientist. In fact, we can
>draw
>depressing parallels with the rest of the Islamic world where the same
>intellectual inertia exists. How many patents have been issued to
>Muslim
>inventors? How many scientific or mathematical theories have been
>propounded by Muslim scientists? Even our so-called nuclear research at
>Kahuta is derivative and imitative.
>
>Take even the most mundane research that has immense and immediate
>relevance to much of the Islamic world, and we find that it is taking
>place
>in the West. For example, research into alternative sources of energy
>like
>solar power and wind energy could greatly benefit us, and yet what have
>our
>scientists and engineers achieved in this field? Or take desalination
>of
>sea water, or even agriculture in saline or semi-desert areas. We have
>made
>absolutely no progress, waiting instead for European (or Israeli)
>scientists to give us solutions on a platter.
>
>Last year, the World Bank suggested a number of economy measures to the
>government. One of these proposals was to shut down the Pakistan
>Council
>for Scientific and Industrial Research. When made public, this idea was
>greeted in the Press with shock and horror. In fact, it was viewed as a
>Western plot to sabotage research in Pakistan. And yet, if objectively
>analysed, the output of the PCSIR over the years does not exactly
>inspire
>confidence in the work being done in its laboratories. To a great
>extent,
>this is not the fault of the Council staff: starved of funds, the
>budget
>barely allows for salaries and utilities.
>
>But the problem Pakistan and the entire Muslim world faces goes far
>deeper
>than the mere shortage of funds: in many countries not afflicted with
>our
>atrophy of the creative faculties, most genuine scientists would take
>their
>training and talents to institutions where they are put to good use.
>Here,
>they stay on for the sake of security as well as the fact that they
>have
>few options. Ultimately, they become time-serving careerists who have
>more
>in common with bureaucrats than with scientists.
>
>The last decade has witnessed a remarkable growth in computer and
>communication technology. How many Muslims have been at the cutting
>edge of
>this change? True, one or two Pakistanis have done well abroad in
>marketing
>computers and related products, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody
>from this part of the world has made any significant contribution to
>the
>rapid transformation which is changing the way we think and live and
>work.
>Once again, the world is sprinting ahead, leaving the Muslim world far
>behind. For centuries now, we have been reduced to the role of users of
>technology developed elsewhere: nobody, including ourselves, expects us
>to
>be inventors and innovators.
>
>Clearly, the problem transcends the shortage of resources: several
>Muslim
>countries are raking in and squandering billions of petrodollars, and
>they could easily afford the costliest research equipment. But
>scientific
>breakthroughs first take place in the mind, and it is here that we lag
>behind. What we have lost somewhere along the way centuries ago is the
>sense of wonder, the burning curiosity that lie at the heart of
>scientific
>inquiry. This quest for pure knowledge for its own sake is driven by a
>refusal to take anything for granted, and to question the most
>fundamental
>assumptions.
>
>By separating the state from religion, secular societies have permitted
>and
>encouraged citizens to question, criticise and attack the state and the
>social order without in any way involving the belief system. Extended
>to
>the scientific establishment, this translates into young researchers
>bending their efforts towards constantly picking holes in officially
>endorsed theories without losing their jobs. At a lower level, students
>questioning their teachers on everything under the sun without being
>threatened with expulsion. To field these queries, professors have to
>be
>well prepared. This constant ferment leads to a dialectic that results
>in a
>restless drive towards exploring the frontiers of knowledge. It can be
>and has been argued that change for its own sake is detrimental to
>social
>stability; indeed, many Eastern societies have stagnated for centuries
>because of this very assumption.
>
>Here at home, we are caught in the dichotomy of wishing to make
>material
>progress while at the same time preserving intact our exploitative
>social
>order and decaying traditions. Unable to resolve this fundamental
>contradiction, we are trying to prevent the winds of change from
>blowing
>away the cobwebs in our minds while simultaneously paying lip-service
>to
>the need for scientific advancement. This is in no way meant to suggest
>that in order to make progress, we must give up our culture. However,
>we
>will have to discard the irrational and unscientific attitudes that
>currently dominate the national psyche. The highly successful and
>competitive Pacific Rim nations have transformed themselves within a
>generation by ensuring education and health care for all their
>citizens,
>and by limiting their population growth to a reasonable and sustainable
>rate. At the same time, they are investing heavily in research and
>development. We are doing neither, and yet our fatuous leaders never
>tire
>of announcing that we are going to join the ranks of the Asian Tigers
>any
>moment now.
>
>Basically, the rational approach consists in analysing issues
>objectively
>and solving them using the tools of logic we have developed and
>internalised. We in much of the Islamic world find this an
>uncomfortable
>attitude towards life as it demands constantly questioning the status
>quo.
>We would rather live in the past, dreaming dreams of past glory. Our
>religious luminaries have a vested interest in keeping the masses as
>backward as possible so that they can retain their grip on their
>benighted
>intellects. Feudals want to keep progress at bay so that they can
>maintain
>their lock on power. The monarchs and dictators who rule most of the
>Islamic world certainly do not want aware and educated citizens to
>question
>their right to govern. With all these interlocking interests striving
>to
>keep their people in the dark, it is little wonder that scientific
>progress
>is virtually non-existent.
>
>Away from complex and expensive laboratories, the scientific approach I
>am
>talking about also includes the schoolboy opening up his alarm clock to
>see
>how it works; the eccentric inventor tinkering in his garage, devoting
>years of his life and all his savings in developing a gadget which may
>have
>no practical use; the amateur astronomer examining the stars from his
>backyard through his small telescope, dreaming of discovering a
>heavenly
>body which will be named after him. How many of us engage in these
>time-
>consuming tasks just to satisfy our own curiosity?
>
>Until we in the Muslim world regain our sense of wonder and stop taking
>things for granted, we are condemned to remain in limbo, inhabiting the
>backwaters of human progress.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>~~~~~~
>>Proclaim: He is Allah the One and Only (Unique). All are dependent on
>Him and
>> he is independent of all. Niether has He an offspring, nor is
>He
>> the offspring of anyone; And none is equal with Him in rank.
>> -- Al Quran, The Book of Islam, Ch.112
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>~~~~~~
>
Nasif Akand
Brijnandan Singh Dehiya wrote:
>
> Such examples are ambiguous at best, Mohammad. In one of his books, Charles
> Berlitz wrote about the description of the Mahabharata war. It involved the
> sky becoming dark in the day, intense heat being generated and bright
> flashes together with thunderous sounds while thousands of soldiers fell on
> the ground charred beyond recognition. Dust rose up miles high in the skies
> and the lands became barren for miles around the scene. Does this mean
> nuclear weapons were used? Obviously not, but the descriptions are very
> similar to what happened at Hiroshima.
> Similarly, Ram was supposed to have come back from Lanka on a winged
> machine. Were there aeroplanes back then? I don't think so but descriptions
> suggest that.
> One can find many such examples if one reads too much into the text.
> What about Gandhari'e 100 sons? The way they were born suggests they were
> all test-tube babies since 'something' from Ganghari's womb was taken and
> split into 100 parts, each part stored in a sealed vessel for 9 months, and
> they all resulted in babies. But such examples are the result of a very
> imaginative mind working overtime. :-)
>
> Brij
> ----
>
Are you sure you know how test tube babies are born? The babies are not obviously born or stored in the test
tube for 9 months. What they do is, they take the embryo out into a test tube where it meets with sperm and
forms zygote. This zygote is then inserted into a woman's womb where the growing process takes place for about
9 months until the baby is ready for birth. !!Growing in the test tube !! give me a break! By the way, if the
embryo cell is split into 100 parts it will die. There is no way to make 100 babies from 100 pieces of an
embryo.
Talking about Islam? Why don't you look at Sura Yasin in the Holy Quran (I quess you can find one translation
of Holy Quran). This whole Sura (chapter) is about science. In line 36 Allah said:
"Glory be to Him, Who has created all the pairs of that which the earth produces, as well as of their
own (human) kind (make & female), and of that which they know not."
The line is saying that there is pair in everything including plants ("which the earth produces"). It is
unbelievable that 1400 years ago somebody figured out plants genetics, other than Allah Himself.
In line 38
"And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term appointed. That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, The
All-Knowing"
In line 40
"---- It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all stay,
each in an orbit.---"
These two lines confirm that sun has an orbit. This was only discovered few decades ago when astronomers were
able to find the orbit of the sun around our galaxy. So how come Muhammad told these 1400 years ago? There are
lot more scientific statements in The Holy Quran. It would be helpful if you read the book "The Bible The
Quran & Science".
Thanks
Nasif
Supratik Das
Spirituality is not an enemy of science and rational thinking. However,
religious orthodoxy, dogmatism and ritualism are enemies of rationality.
I don't need a Sai Baba to bring bibhuti or an egg from nowhere to
believe in the presence of the Creator. Maybe there was some rational in
performing such deeds in the past when the common man lacked scientific
knowledge. However, in this century the creator has to be felt from
within. I don't believe in most ritualism except perhaps prayer.
Supratik
Ram Selvarajah
When the question of Science and Religion comes up I am lost to explain
the predictions made by the Astrologers who read your previous and present
birth.
I had a chance to see an astroger named Jaisangar in Colombo last year. My
wife was interested to read her past birth and the present one. We went to
the hotel to see him. To my surprise there was abig crowd of of buddhist
monks, Foreign Tourists, and even a catholic priest and lots of Sinahlese
to see him, like waiting to see a consultant. My wife gave her date of
birth and thumb impression only (no name) to his assistant. After few
minutes one of the assisatnts shouted her date of birth and when she
approached him she was given an appointment after two days at 10.00 am
for the prediction. The prediction is termed "Nadi Sasthiram".
We went after three days.The astrolger started going through a bunch
old writtings written in palm leaves. He satred questioning her.
Samples of the questions are>
Is your name starting with letter N.
No.
Is your husbands starting with leter A .
No.
She has to say only Yes or no. If the answer is no he moves to the next
one, like scanning a data base for the correct record.Finaly she answered
Yes to all her basic questions and he has selected the correct record. He
announced her name, husbands name, fathers name, mothers name, childs name
correctly. He also provided all basic info about her and her husband with
100% accuracy.She immediately casted her horoscope (without knowing the
time of birth and place of birth) within few seconds by looking at the
Ollas. He wanted her to check with her record. Guess, it tallied 100%. I
was surprised. I asked one question. "Do you have a record for every one
living in this world?". The reply he gave was " That is why it is termed
Nadi sasthiram" Nadi means you go in search of. Not every one will go in
search of raeding the past birth. The time has to come and you are
destined for it. It is true, although he offered to read me, I said no.
Probably my time has not come.
He started predictng her past birth and the past present and future of
this birth. It was tape recorded. As far she knows the predictions for the
present birth tallies as at that date.
Any explanations for this?
Tahir Nasir
BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <4vana1$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> men...@glibm15.cen.uiuc.edu (Marlon
: E Menezes) writes:
: >
: >Fundametalist interpretations of all religions are the enemy of
: science
: >and rational thinking. This includes the bigotry of Babu Ramdan and
: >the stupidity of "Dr" Maharaj
: I do not have any interest in quran and therefore question of
: fundamental interpretation of quran by me does not apply. I do not no
: why you are writing my name above. By the way, no muslims says that the
: quran has any fundamentalist interpratation, as quran is word of god
: and no one can challange it. That is what makes "islam an enemy of
: science and rational thinking."
: Regards,
: babu ramabadran
When it is said that Quran is the word of God and no one can challenge it
then it does not mean rigidity but means truthfullness and it lays down
the basis of sicence in terms of directions and encougragement as Allah
says in Quran that He has concealed the treauries in the depth of oceans
and in the chest of earth then means Geogology and Science of oceans --
Dr. Jai Maharaj
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In the article <4vo069$l...@news.inforamp.net>,
of 24 Aug 1996 22:36:57 UTC,
Certainly, Jyotish is a science! There are several
Paddhati(s) and refined branches of Jyotish. Please
note that a government award given to top scientists
went to a Jyotishi in bharat a few years ago. Many
people on soc.culture.indian objected and even sent
letters to the GOI at that time. For interested
persons, permit me to present a short bibliography for
further study:
1 Varahamihira, The Brhat Samhita of Varaha Mihira
2 Dharmupathi, 18th century, Kalacandrika:
Vijayasritippanisahita
3 Lagadha, circa 137, Vedanga Jyotish of Lagadha in Rg & Yajur
Ved
4 Kapura, Ramacandra, Laghuparasaribhashya: Kalacakradasa
Sahita
5 Ramadinadaivajna, Brhaddaivajnaranjanam: Sridhari Hindi
Vyakhya
6 Madhava (Son of Ragh Adbhutadarpanah)
7 Santhanam, R., 1944 , Doctrines of Sukha Nadi, Retold
8 Kalyanavarman, Saravali of Kalyana Varma
9 Varahamihira, Laghujatakam: Sayukti-Sodaharana-Sopapatti...
10 Kasinatha Bhattacary, Lagna Chandrika: Abhinava-Hindi Tika
Sahita
11 Varahamihira, Daivajna-Vallabh
12 Makarandacarya, Srimanmakarandacaryapranita-Makaranda Sarani
13 Prthuyasas
14 Nilakantha, 16th century
15 Ganesadaivajna, Jatakalankarah
16 Perinbanayagam,R. S., The Karmic Theater: Self,Society &
Astrology
17 Sarma, Harikrsna Vyas, Kridakausalyam
18 Pingree, D. E., Jyotihshastra: Astral and Mathematical
Literature
19 Mukunda Daivajna, Nashta-Jatakam - Bhasha-Tika
20 Stone, Anthony P., Hindu Astrology: Myths, Symbols, and
Realities
21 Bhrgu Maharshi, Bhrgu Sutram
22 Mantreshvara, Phaladipika - Mantreswara's Phaladeepika
23 Parameshvara, 14th century, Acharasangrahah
24 Varahamihira, Brhatsamhita - Varahamihira's Brhat Samhita
25 Turstig, Hans-Georg, Jyotisa: das System der indischen
Astrologie
26 Vaidyanathadiksita, Jatakaparijatah
27 Ramakrsna, Daivajna, Prasnacandesvarah: 108 Shlokon Men
Jyotish Ke
28 Putumana Somayaji, Jatakadesamargah - Jatakadesamarga
29 Balabhadra, 17th century, Horaratnam: Indumati
Hindivyakhyopetam
30 Mahesvaracarya, Vrttasatakabhidho muhurtagranthah
31 Nilakantha, 16th c. Tajikanilakanthi:
Srivisvanathadaivajnaviracit
32 Mahesvaracarya, Vrttasatam
33 Hirakalasamuni, Shri Jyotisasarah Hira Kalas: Hindi
Bhasha-Tika
34 Varahamihira, The Brihajjatakam of Varaha Mihira
35 Varahamihira, Vivahapatalam
36 Vaidyanathadiksita, Vaidyanathadiksitaviracita Jataka
Parijatah
37 Prasna-Maarg
38 Bhattacharya, Narayan, Horabignan-Rahasyam
39 Bhattacharya, Narayan, Jyotisha-Kalpabrkshah
40 Pragnana Deepika: Problem-Solving Hindu Astrology
41 Narayanadaivajna, Muhurtamartandah
42 Ddhundhiraja, 15th century, Jatakabharanam
43 Ganesadaivajna, Jatakalankaram - Jatakalankara of Shri Ganesh
44 Varahamihira, Brihat Jataka: A Treatise on Hindu Predict
Astrology
45 Narasimha Murthy, Do Planets Influence Human Life?
46 Ganesh, Son of Keshav, Tithicintamanih
47 Bhavartha Ratnakara
48 Udujatakodayah
49 Kalyanavarman, Saravali
50 Ratnapani, Krtyasagarah
51 Sooryanarayanamurthy, Jataka Narayaneeyam & Yogavali Khandam
52 Minarajacarya, Vrddhayavanajatakam
53 Krsnacarya, Krsniyam
54 Ramadayalu, Sanketanldhih Ramadayalu's
55 Sripati, Son of Naag Sripatipaddhati - Sripatipaddhatih
56 Minarajacarya, Vrddhayavanajataka of Minaraja
57 Venkatesa, Pandit, Sri Jataka Chandrika: Moonlight to
Astrology
58 Narayana Bhatta, 17th century, Camatkarachintamanih
59 Varahamihira, Atha Daivajna-Varahamihiracarya-Viracitam
Brhajj
60 Udhrain, S. D., 1904, Star-Lore: Being an Account of Planets
61 Ramapati, 18th century, Siddhantasarani
62 Gupta, Bhim Sen, 1922, Stars and Human Destiny
63 Deva Sarma, Viswanath, Astrology and Jyotirvidya
64 Sarma, K. Venkateswa, A Bibliography of Kerala-based
Astronomy
65 Nilakantha, 16th century, Tajika-Nilakanthi
66 Bhasin, Jagannath, Astro Sutras
67 Sharma, Parmanad, Mahilaem, Aura Jyotisha
68 Krishnamurti, Kuthur, Casting the Horoscope
69 Ojha, Mithalala Himm, Bharatiya Kundali Vijnana.
70 Krishnamurti, Kuthur, Fundamental Principles of Astrology:
Hindu...
71 Subbaraya Sharma, The Greatness of Sri Gayathri - Jyothisha
Shastr
72 Sri Rama Murthi, Span of life;an astrological thesis on
longevity
73 Sri Bhrgusamhita mahasastra
74 al-Biruni, 973?-1048 Alberuni's India. An Account of the
Religion
75 Narapati, Narapatijayacryasvarodayah.
76 Ojha, Gopesh Kumar, Triphala (jyotisha)
77 Vyasa, Sohanlal, Muhurta-parijata.
78 Varahamihira, d 587, Brhajjatakam.
79 Tripathi, Balamukund, Jataka-dipaka. Astological science
80 Pad-dkar-yid-bzin-db, Dbyangs char grel pa gzhan phanngo...
81 Bhojaraja, king of d, Vidvajjanavallabha of Bhojaraja
82 Rajarama Jyotishi, Prasnaprakasa.
83 Sree Bhavartha ratnakara (English translation) w
84 Vidyalankar, Harishchandra, Ratna-paricaya
85 Bhasin, Jagannath, Medical astrology: a rational approach,
86 Canteenwala, Phyruz, The basic truths of astrology.
87 Kelakara, Dattatraya, Prasna jyotisha.
88 Srimali, Narayanadat, Jyotisha-yoga.
89 Ramakrsna, Daivajna, Daivajna Ramakrsnage Prasna candesvariya
90 Nilakantha, 16th cen, Sri Neelakanta's Prasna tantra (Horary
astrology)
91 Dikshita, Rajesa, Bhrgu-samhita phalita prakasa.
92 Mi-pham-rgya-mtsho, Kun gzigs dbyangs char chen po Shel...
93 Rama daivajna, Muhurtacintaminih
94 'sarma, jayasankara, Prakrti se varsha jnana
95 Raman, Bangalore Venkataran. Hindu in America
96 Rama Daivajna, Sriramadaivajnavitacito Muhurtacintamanih
97 Dikshit, Sankara B., English translation of Bharatiya jyotish
sastra
98 hakura, Babulala, Sacitra jyotisha siksha.
99 Sukadeva, Jyotirvidya, Jyotsasara.
100 Mkhyen-rab-nor-bu, Bstan bcos Bai dur dkar po. Rigs-lden...
101 Chaudhary, Govind V., Vedic numerology
102 Ramanathan, L., Josyam karruk kollunkal.
103 Pavale, Namadeva Tuk, Vyapara Martanda.
104 Lavanyasarma, Sakuma-pradipah
105 Mishra, Mukunda V., Phalita-martandah.
106 Raja Rao, M. B., Nava-Veda: or, New light
107 Kasinatha Bhattacarya, Lagna-candrika.
108 Jha, Sitaram, Samaya-suddhi-viveka.
Jai Maharaj <j...@mantra.com> Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:% Om Shanti %:%:%
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Brijnandan Singh Dehiya
In article <321EB6...@earthlink.net>,
Nasif Akand <aw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Are you sure you know how test tube babies are born? The babies are not obviously born or stored in the test
>tube for 9 months. What they do is, they take the embryo out into a test tube where it meets with sperm and
>forms zygote. This zygote is then inserted into a woman's womb where the growing process takes place for about
>9 months until the baby is ready for birth. !!Growing in the test tube !! give me a break! By the way, if the
Ever heard of external fertilization? Doesnt happen in humans but frogs do
it. :-).
I was talking about the _concept_ not reality, Mr. SmartAss.
>embryo cell is split into 100 parts it will die. There is no way to make 100 babies from 100 pieces of an
>embryo.
In _concept_, you can have multiple fertilization or some other accident,
resulting in (last heard) 6 babies. Without being told otherwise, I would
assume there is no _theoretical_ limit.
>
>Talking about Islam? Why don't you look at Sura Yasin in the Holy Quran (I quess you can find one translation
>of Holy Quran). This whole Sura (chapter) is about science. In line 36 Allah said:
>
> "Glory be to Him, Who has created all the pairs of that which the earth produces, as well as of their
>own (human) kind (make & female), and of that which they know not."
There a lots of uni-sexual animals/plants. Does this not disprove your
claim?
>The line is saying that there is pair in everything including plants ("which the earth produces"). It is
>unbelievable that 1400 years ago somebody figured out plants genetics, other than Allah Himself.
>
>In line 38
>
> "And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term appointed. That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, The
>All-Knowing"
Couldn't he have been talking about the course of the Sun as it _appears_
from earth?
>In line 40
>
> "---- It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all stay,
>each in an orbit.---"
>
>These two lines confirm that sun has an orbit. This was only discovered few decades ago when astronomers were
>able to find the orbit of the sun around our galaxy. So how come Muhammad told these 1400 years ago? There are
>lot more scientific statements in The Holy Quran. It would be helpful if you read the book "The Bible The
>Quran & Science".
A lot of bull-crap. There is nothing to suggest the 'orbit' mentioned is not
the 'orbit' the sun seems to follow around the earth.
And stories about male/female plants have been around since the dawn of
civilization. Blind, ignorant fools will go to any limits to 'prove' their
views.
Brij
----
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4vn09m$s...@news.mel.aone.net.au> "keysar@ppp"
<key...@speednet.com.au> writes:
>
>I cannot understand how a Hindu can throw stones when he is
>living in such a fragile glass house.
>
>My friend, how can you as a hindu take issue with Islam's
>position on women when your religion requires the woman to burn
>herself at the bier of her husband or live in disgrace for the
>rest of her life.
Hinduism does not require womens to burn. Please furnish the
quote where the religions says women to burn herself.
The tradition of sati was started when the muslims inaders attacked
india. After a hindu king was defeated, they muslims will take their
womens to their harem. Therefore hindu womens decided to kill
themselves rather than going to harem of muslim kings.
IN modern times, the sati is remote cases. The only case that i know
is that of Roop Kunwar. If you have anyother information please let me
know.
Regarding islam, it has been mentioned many times, that islam
treats women like food. She is no better than a sex-toy. Is this
islamic culture??? One can divorce women just by saying talaq three
times. Womens do not go to school. What are you taking about??
If you want to improve the fate of women, ask them to challange
islam.
Talking about rationality, please explain
>the rationale behind bestial imagery carved at many hindu
>temples. Explain the rationale behind ganesha! Can you
>explain why hindus also worship the penis and the vulva? Or
>the edible, but recently turned insane cow?
>
>Truly ridiculous.
It is very difficult to explain these things to a muslims mind
as it has been make immune to thinking and analysing ( due to quran).
You need to ovecome quranic hangover to understan them.
>Anyway, to deal with your particular comments. Jihad is a
>struggle beginning with yourself and extending to fighting
>others who would create obstacles to peace. Islam is peace and
>tranquillity, Jihad is the branch of Islam which would remove
>any obstacles to harmonious life with others and with nature.
>Very simple.
In reality, the Jehad is nothing but elimination of any
non-muslim entity from this world. It may start from the inside of
person and can extend to others. Forexample the muslims of indian
subcontinent have started JIhad from inside by developing anti-india
thoughts and outwardly they are animous to hindus and other
non-muslims.
>
>Polygamy, not polyandry. Tell me, what is happening in India
>at the moment, please explain why fathers of girls are
>kidnapping young men and forcing them to marry their daughters?
>
I do not know if fathers are kidnapping men an marrying to their
daughters. Yes, some cases were happened in Bihar in early 80's. I do
not think it happens anymore.
>Explain to me why a woman in Western society would resort to
>prostitution or to having an affair or to starring in
>pornography. If she was able to marry an able person who would
>provide for her, she would not resort to any of this. Also
>tell me which religious book limits the number of wives to one?
Your question of the western socity is not relevant to our
discussion ( at least I think so- Please explain its relevance - if
any).
Hinduism restrict marriage to one women only( unless the first wife
is dead or did not bear child ).
> None, unless it is a religion you invented in this century!
>
>Islam limits the number of wives to four.
>
>Women have an excellent status in Islam, Islam gave them rights
>above any other religion, and in terms of giving them rights,
>to the unitiated who would objectively look at these rights,
>they may actually appear in excess of the rights given to men.
Would you please explain where the women has been respected in
isalm ??
> Do not forget, that as long as she has a living male relative,
>it is his duty to care and provide for her, regardless of her
>personal wealth.
>
>Slaves, no religion bans slavery, Hinduism in particular has
>two classes which are far worse than slavery. You have the
>untouchables and the non hindus.
There are no untouchables in hindusim. Low caste people are not
slaves. They have different professions. Slavery has sanctions in islam
and christianity. I do not know of other religions at this point of
time.
>
>Islam, in fact emancipated the slave. It made it a religious
>observance to actually free slaves. Freeing slaves is a also
>an expiation for sins, it is an act which brings a Muslim
>closer to God. Islam in effect abolished slavery.
>
But slaves were openly sold and pruchased in arabia and
elsewhere. The islam has religous sanctions to slavery. It is promised
that the ture muslims get lot of slaves in haeven.
>Religious leaders, as fallible as I am, if you care to read
>when the old women stood up in the mosque to rebuke Omar
>(who was the head of the Muslim state at that time) and correct
>him when he made a mistake in a matter relating to dowry.
>Talking about Dowry, tell me, why does the hindu father of the
>bride have to give the dowry to the man to take his daughter
>away (whom he regards as a burden)?
>
>Talaq, western culture has finally realised that divorce is
>inevitable.
But the western culture does not allow a man to divorce his
wife just by saying talaq three times.
Of course the Hindu way is to conveniently kill
>the unwanted wife.
Hindus do not kill their wife. If you are pointing to dowery
related murders, it is no different than murders. Hinduism has no
sanctions to kill wife. But islam does provide legitmacy to divorce if
a person says talaq three times.
Regards,
babu ramabadran
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <321EAA...@ix.netcom.com> Khaled or Omar <kg...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>Supratik Das wrote:
>> Abdul Kalam, the scientist in concern, was born a Muslim but is
currently
>> atheist. This is just to keep the records straight.
>> Supratik
>
>Here is the conclusion to this thread:
>ATHEISM is FRIEND of SCIENCE and RATIONAL THINKING !!
>Khaled
Yes Khaled, thanks for accepting the lack of scientific spirit and
rationality in ISLAM. Now that you understand this secret, I will ask
you to appeal muslims to become atheist.
Regards,
babu ramabadran
John Mitchell
Science has much more interesting problems to solve. If you wish, you can
investigate and build up a mathematical model and make it into a Science.
Scientific investigations upto now, have not found any repeatable or
falsifiable theories to test such phenomena.
Tariq Siddiqui
On 25 Aug 1996, BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>
> Yes Khaled, thanks for accepting the lack of scientific spirit and
> rationality in ISLAM. Now that you understand this secret, I will ask
> you to appeal muslims to become atheist.
Why? Can't we become hindus?
>
>
> Regards,
> babu ramabadran
>
>
Tariq Siddiqui
txs8...@tree.egr.uh.edu
http://www.egr.uh.edu/~txs89378
*******************************************************************************
My teaching, if that is the word you want to use, has no copyright. You are
free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble,
do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the
permission of anybody.
********************************************************************************
John Mitchell
Ram Selvarajah wrote:
>
> When Physics teachers teach Optics in science classes, they never fail to
> mention the fact that white light consists of seven colours and the theory
> was invented by Sir Isac Newton. (The famous seven colur rotating disc
> experiment). But this invention was there in Hinduism long time before
> Newton was born. The Hindu god sun's statue is represented by a person
> driving a charriot driven by seven horses. The seven horses represents
> seven colours and the Sun god , the driver of the charriot, represnts the
> white colour.
>
> The Hindu almenac calculates the Solar and Lunar Eclipses occuring during
> the year to a great degree of accuracy. It also mentions the Umbral and
> Penumbral areas.
> The theory of Resonance ( thinking in the same wave length) was and is
> being practised by Hindu Rishies. They could vary their freuency to match
> any persons natural frequency, through meditation and thus could read
> their minds.
>
> Hinduism is a scientific relegion. The waekness of the relegion is that
> the concepts are not clearly explained to the people. There is no
> Religious Communism in Hinduism.
Cross-posted to alt.sci.physics.new-theories for comment.
John Mitchell
Himanshu Nautiyal wrote:
>
> Denis Wright (dwr...@metz.une.edu.au) wrote:
>
> : size in terms of length rather than number. Thus they tended to develop
> : their skills in geometry and mensuration, whereas the Indians, who were
> : also good at the latter, really excelled in abstract mathematics -
> : arithmetic, algebra, calculus and logic.
>
> What calculus are we talking about it here. If you are using it in
> the specialized sense, not just as any way of computation/notation, then
> I thought it was invented by Newton+Leibnitz (a whole new controversy there)
> but certainly ancient Indians had no inkling of it. All the others yes.
>
> --
> Himanshu
Cross-posted to sci.math for comment.
John Mitchell
Denis Wright wrote:
>
> <ind...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>
> > The decimal system (dashmalav in Hindi) cam from India, and so did the
> > modern so called arabic numerals. I don't know about algebra but
> > calculas also came from india.
>
> All present day algebra is essentially Indian. It is a good example of
> the way Hindu philosophy even before the Gupta period encouraged the
> Indian mathematicians to think in abstract terms. They tended to think
> arithmetically, if you like - thinking of size in terms of number,
> whereas the Greeks, who wre also excellent mathematicians, thought of
> size in terms of length rather than number. Thus they tended to develop
> their skills in geometry and mensuration, whereas the Indians, who were
> also good at the latter, really excelled in abstract mathematics -
> arithmetic, algebra, calculus and logic.
>
> science and rational thinking, otherwise there would be no Muslim
> scientists. The topic header is flamebait.
>
>
> Denis
> --
> :: Dr D A Wright:::::::::::::::::::::::::dwr...@metz.une.edu.au ::
> :: History Department:::::::::::::::::::::::ph (w) +61 67 732479 ::
> :: University of New England AUSTRALIA::::::::(h) +61 67 751793 ::
Cross posted to sci.math for comment.
Arun Gupta
BABU RAMABADRAN <bab...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Hinduism does not require womens to burn. Please furnish the
>quote where the religions says women to burn herself.
True that the sources of Hinduism, the "shruti" (roughly translates
to "revealed" ) do not have any such requirement.
However, some of the law-books from the 6th-7th century AD
do have this requirement. Note that there were several competing
codes of law, and none applied uniformly everywhere.
> The tradition of sati was started when the muslims inaders attacked
>india. After a hindu king was defeated, they muslims will take their
>womens to their harem. Therefore hindu womens decided to kill
>themselves rather than going to harem of muslim kings.
No, sati is ancient, as old as the Mahabharata, where Madri, wife
of Pandu, committed sati. The Greeks at the time of Alexander
commented on the custom as well.
The practice of "jauhar" probably does date to the Muslim invasions.
When a besieged fort could stand no longer, the noblewomen
consigned themselves to the flames, and the men fought to the
death; for the reasons aforementioned.
> IN modern times, the sati is remote cases. The only case that i know
>is that of Roop Kunwar. If you have anyother information please let me
>know.
True.
-arun gupta
Soumitra Bose
In <3220B4...@dial.pipex.com> John Mitchell <nj...@dial.pipex.com>
writes:
slightly off the point if you find there are cults even to support that
in Hinduism . Anyway could you please elaborate on RELIGIOUS COMMUNISM.
hassan monu alam
Supratik Das (d...@aecom.yu.edu) wrote:
: On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Ram Selvarajah wrote:
[snip]
: I think the main reason why culturally we have come to such a pass is the
: lack in proper continuity through history. For the last 1000 years we
: have been centrally ruled by Muslims and British, none of whom encouraged
: science or had any understanding of the Hindu almenac. The muslims
: didn't do it because unlike the civilized Arabs the Turks, Afghans
: or Pathans had hardly any understanding of science.
The Moghul familiy was decended from Timur (turkic/mongol). The Arabs
and turks were muslim (so dont know what you are saying). Hindu rajas existed
during muslim rule of north india.
: The British on
: the other hand deemed industrial dependency vital for their control on
: Indians. Although they were responsible for setting up many leading
: Universities their intention was not to spur scientific progress
: in Indian society. Scientists are now discovering that Yoga, Ayurveda,
: etc are not gibberish. The greatest danger is that the West in collusion
: with domestic sycophants have for long established a theory that
: scientifically or industrially we had always been backward. The notion is
: so deeply embedded that nettors like John Mitchell openly say on the net
: that "Indians didn't have any golden age", etc. Latest studies have found
: out that Indian and Chinese science were the forerunners and the basis of
: most of the Arabic and Greek achievements. Now that we are free once
: again to think for ourself, it is time for us to catch up with the World
: or we face the danger of loosing out on the third industrial revolution
: that is now taking place and giving the West one more chance to deem us a
: backward culture.
Indian and Chinese science influencing Aristotle and the library of Alexandria?
Can you give examples?
Third industrial revolution???? We have the information revolution now. What
was the 2nd??
Again under british rule there were semi-independent rulers. What were they
doing?
: Supratik
--
Hassan Alam
hassan monu alam
Supratik Das (d...@aecom.yu.edu) wrote:
I in no way wish to diminish the greatness of hindu philosophy, but the
stuff below sounds like wishfull thinking.
: 1) Viswharup of Sri Krishna- This is the form he showed Arjun during the
: battle of Kurukshetra and no body else saw it. What Arjun saw was that
: evrything right from the planets to the tiniest creature emerged from him
: and returned into him. His size increased until it gradually enveloped
: the whole universe and he said "I am He, I am in everything that you see
: around you".
During the big bang, the big bang was the universe. It did not expand to
fill the universe. (atleast according to the theory).
: This has been interpretated to mean the Big bang theory
: wherein as you mentioned the creator or source of energy explodes and
: gives rise to everything right from the stars to the minutest creature and
: then returns to him. That is why Oppenheimer quoted the Gita after
: the first nuclear explosion because according to him he could see in
: it the same power of the creator as in Arjuns Vishwarup darshan of
: Krishna.
Oppenheimer was facinated by hindu philosophy. He particularly felt that
"he" (openhiemer) had "become the destroyer of worlds", like Krishna.
Again, no disrespect meant to hindu philosophy, but *ALL* religions have
parables that can be *interpreted* in some natural phenomena. In all religions
there is an inadequate explanation of *all* natural phenomena.
The most likely
scenario, is that the learned person took his/her understanding of the
universe and wrote it in an allegorical form for the illiterate, ignorate
people of his/her time.
Imagine explaining the implications on time travel of the Second Law to
people 2000 years ago. In 300 AD the greeks burnt down the world's largest
library, because they were afraid of the scholars.
: Regards,
: Supratik
--
Hassan Alam
hassan monu alam
Supratik Das (d...@aecom.yu.edu) wrote:
: On 23 Aug 1996, Brijnandan Singh Dehiya wrote:
: > In article <1996082309...@remote-004.une.edu.au>,
: > Denis Wright <dwr...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
: > >There is of course nothing in Islam that would make it the enemy of
: > >science and rational thinking, otherwise there would be no Muslim
: > >scientists. The topic header is flamebait.
: > True. The guy heading the successful Indian missile program is a muslim. And
: > a damn good scientist.
: Abdul Kalam, the scientist in concern, was born a Muslim but is currently
: atheist. This is just to keep the records straight.
I think you will find many scientist have a limited afinity to *any* religion.
: > Brij
: Supratik
--
Hassan Alam