Shashuri-der aashol byaparta ki bolunto?

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Aachcha aykta kotha bolun. Bola hoye thaake je chele haat kore nichche
bole shashuri-der bou-der proti raag hoi, aar shei raag thekei aashe
bou-der proti durbyabohaar/otyachar. Othoba, aykkaale nije bhuktobhugi,
tai sheti onyer opor folaanor cheshta. Kintu tahole `nonodini rai
baghini-r' aachoron bojhano jai na, jodi dwityiota karon hoi. Aamar mote
tar theke-o boro aykta karon aache, noromer proti kortritto folano.
Shotti bolte ki baDir modhye shob cheye durbol to notun bou-ee; aar aei
purush-shashito shomaje khub kom-ee jaiga aache jekhane meyera tNader
khomota/kortritto folate paren. Shei jonyoi dyakha jai je kichu kichu
khetre shashuri-der mone mone ichche thaakle-o paren na, karon bou-era
hoito norom/durbol non. Etao dyakha gyache je notun bou jokhon aar notun
thaaken na, tokhon durbyabohaar-o aar hoi na. Aamar mote tokhon tini aar
norom thaken na, shongshaare aykta foothold peye jaan, insecurity
onektai kome aashe. Shutoraang aamar mote bottom line is je chele por
hoye jachche o shob baje kotha, shashurider aei byabohaar stems from the
inherent tendency of human beings to dominate over the weak, be it a man
or a woman. Aapnader e byapare ki motaamot jaante aagrohi roilaam.

Sharmila

--
Dept. of Biochemistry
Room 376A

Ph:(713)798-8432

[sibabrata ray]

Achha, etake-ki engineering college-gulor freshman ragging-er shathe tulana kara
jay-na?

--
Sibabrata Ray Phone:
Computer and Information Sciences (313)436 9159 (O)
University of Michigan - Dearborn (313)359 2332 (H)
Dearborn, MI 48128 - 1491 Fax: (313)593 9967

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

sibabrata ray wrote:
>
> Achha, etake-ki engineering college-gulor freshman ragging-er shathe tulana kara
> jay-na?

Hmm...eta bhalo bolechen to! Tar maane aapni-o shikaar korchen je etao
durboler opor khomota jahir korar aykta poddhoti? Olpo-bistor hole tao
maniye neowa jete paare, with the hope je ragging aykdin bondho hobe aar
bondhubhaab aashbe. Kintu moja ki janen, college-er ragging shotti
shotti bondho hoi aar tiktota-o thaake na bollei choley, kintu
shashuri-bou-er khetre kintu jinishta oto shohoj noi. Shabolil shomporko
jodio ba aashe, onek derite aashe; onek khetre aashe-o na, ki rokom
aykta kaath-kaath byapar hoye jai, tai noi ki?

Sharmila

PS E byapaare bibahito/bibahita nettor-ra ki bolen jante ootshuk aami.

[Indrani DasGupta]

Sharmila Mukherjee wrote:

Aha...aha! Nonodini-der aar ki dosh? ONder-o to bhai-er bNadrami shojhyo
korate dokhol boshaano hochchhe? :)

Indrani.

[rajib doogar]

Sharmila Mukherjee (s...@shiva.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu) wrote:

: Shotti bolte ki baDir modhye shob cheye durbol to notun bou-ee;

eTa poDe koutuhol jaglo je notun bou kano baDir modhye shob cheye
durbol? bhul bojhabujhi jate na hoy: apnar assertion contest korcchi
na. shudhu alochona korte chai je eTa kano ghoTe? jamon dhorun pure
male-domination diye bojhanoTa ki plausible? Pashchatyo shobhyota'o
to male dominated, kintu shekhane shashuDir ki bharotiyo shashuDir
moton-i power thake? bodh hoy na. tai mone hoy je bharotiyo
setting'a ki ki aaro ullkhjogyo differences thakte pare jate ei
phenomenonTa explain kora jete paare (explain shobdoTa social science
orthei byabohar korcchi kintu). ektu details of the process niye
alochona korle badhito hobo.

: aar aei

: purush-shashito shomaje khub kom-ee jaiga aache jekhane meyera tNader
: khomota/kortritto folate paren. Shei jonyoi dyakha jai je kichu kichu
: khetre shashuri-der mone mone ichche thaakle-o paren na, karon bou-era

eTa kintu khub-i common byapar -- the oppressed taking on the role of
oppressor in turn is a well documented phenomenon across societies
(human and animal) -- a sort of hierarchy of who can oppress whom :(.

: hoito norom/durbol non. Etao dyakha gyache je notun bou jokhon aar notun

: thaaken na, tokhon durbyabohaar-o aar hoi na. Aamar mote tokhon tini aar
: norom thaken na, shongshaare aykta foothold peye jaan, insecurity
: onektai kome aashe. Shutoraang aamar mote bottom line is je chele por

ei proshonge ullekh kora jete pare matritwo ebong bouer positioner
somporko: ekbar ma hoye gele, bouer positionTa kintu aaro dridho hoy
jay karon tokhon she bacchar main care-giver. conventionally, chele
hole to kothai nei, meye holeo bouke kicchuTa additional slack deoa
hoy. tai meyeder upor baccha "produce" korar pressure, bisheshoto
cchele (ontoto asha kora jay je bhobishyote ei a-shomota kome jabe.)

topicTa khubi bhalo tulecchen.

ciao,

rajib

[sibabrata ray]

Sharmila Mukherjee (s...@shiva.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu) wrote:

: sibabrata ray wrote:
: >
: > Achha, etake-ki engineering college-gulor freshman ragging-er shathe tulana kara
: > jay-na?

: Hmm...eta bhalo bolechen to! Tar maane aapni-o shikaar korchen je etao
: durboler opor khomota jahir korar aykta poddhoti?

A-shikaar karar-to prashnai othe-na. Jar opor khamata jahir kara jay se to by
definition durbal.

Olpo-bistor hole tao
: maniye neowa jete paare, with the hope je ragging aykdin bondho hobe aar
: bondhubhaab aashbe. Kintu moja ki janen, college-er ragging shotti
: shotti bondho hoi aar tiktota-o thaake na bollei choley, kintu
: shashuri-bou-er khetre kintu jinishta oto shohoj noi. Shabolil shomporko
: jodio ba aashe, onek derite aashe; onek khetre aashe-o na, ki rokom
: aykta kaath-kaath byapar hoye jai, tai noi ki?

Well. Dharun college-e akjan 4 bachar pade. Tar madhye ragging chale 2-3 mash.
Sutarang mote college jibaner 1/24-1/16 angsha ei rakam abastha-y kate. Jadi
dhare nen average bibahito jiban 40 bachar sthayi hay, ebang badhu nirjatan
on the average 5 bachor chale (actually there is a 7 yr. statute of limitation
in law), tabe bibahito jibaner 1/8 angsha ei rakam abasthay kate. So, we should
work towards reducing this time period to 2 and 1/2 years. To a more serious
note, I do not think that the relation between badhu and her in-laws will ever
be a particularly sweet one (in general, allowing room for exception). In fact,
my friends tell me that, in this country, the relation between the groom and
his mother-in-law is also somewhat bitter. Probably that will become the case
back home also when our womenfolk will become more independent, economically
and otherwise. So, I do not think that we can launch a viable movement to
change the relationship. However, we certainly need to work towards preventing
harrasments.

: PS E byapaare bibahito/bibahita nettor-ra ki bolen jante ootshuk aami.

Count me in.

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

sibabrata ray wrote:

> A-shikaar karar-to prashnai othe-na. Jar opor khamata jahir kara jay se to by
> definition durbal.

Na, aami thik ta jante chaini. Aamar proshno ta chilo je aei je
shashurider byabohaar, er utsho ta thik kothai? Chele por hoye jachche
aei monobhaab theke na shudhu khomota jahir korar aykti jaiga na dutoi?
Duto hole konti beshi powerful?

[...] ebang badhu nirjatan

> on the average 5 bachor chale (actually there is a 7 yr. statute of limitation
> in law), tabe bibahito jibaner 1/8 angsha ei rakam abasthay kate. So, we should
> work towards reducing this time period to 2 and 1/2 years. To a more serious
> note,

Jaak bNachalen, aami to ghaabrei giyechilaam.

I do not think that the relation between badhu and her in-laws will
ever
> be a particularly sweet one (in general, allowing room for exception).

Why not? Do we really have to take it for granted? Then it leaves no
room for any change/improvement whatsoever.

Kyano In fact,

> my friends tell me that, in this country, the relation between the groom and
> his mother-in-law is also somewhat bitter.

I wouldn't generalise in that way, no matter what your friends say. It
can be termed as formal, in my opinion.

Probably that will become the case
> back home also when our womenfolk will become more independent, economically
> and otherwise.

Could you explain as to why you think so? Why should it make any
difference in the relationship between bou and shashuri?

So, I do not think that we can launch a viable movement to
> change the relationship. However, we certainly need to work towards preventing
> harrasments.

I disagree with you completely. Leaving aside harrasments(which I wont
go into because we all recognise it being deplorable), I think it IS
possible to have a perfectly amicable relationship, once we diagnose the
cause accurately.

>
> : PS E byapaare bibahito/bibahita nettor-ra ki bolen jante ootshuk aami.
>
> Count me in.

Thank you.

Sharmila

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Samir Bhattacharya wrote:

> Amio kichhu contest korchhina, kintu Bonphuler aykta chhoto-golpo mone
> poDe galo: Notun bou ashar por theke pNachiler oparer baDir mathay
> kak-chil uDte shuru korlo - buDi shashuDir chNecha-mechite. Aha re,
> notun bouta-ke dyakho, aste na aste jobdo korchhe! Pore, uNki mere
> dyakhe je majhe majhe-i notun bou ektu dur theke shashuDir dike hoy
> aykta choD, noy bNoTi tule ni:shobde shashiye jachhe, ar shonge shonge
> shashuDi chithkar shuru kore dichhe :)
>
> -Samir

She to hotei pare, aykpokkho aar koto shojhyo korbe bolun?
:-)..shojhyer sheema chaaDiye gelei...:-)

Sharmila

--

[Samir Bhattacharya]

Rajib Doogar wrote:

>Sharmila Mukherjee (s...@shiva.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu) wrote:

>: Shotti bolte ki baDir modhye shob cheye durbol to notun bou-ee;

>eTa poDe koutuhol jaglo je notun bou kano baDir modhye shob cheye
>durbol? bhul bojhabujhi jate na hoy: apnar assertion contest korcchi
>na.

Amio kichhu contest korchhina, kintu Bonphuler aykta chhoto-golpo mone

poDe galo: Notun bou ashar por theke pNachiler oparer baDir mathay
kak-chil uDte shuru korlo - buDi shashuDir chNecha-mechite. Aha re,
notun bouta-ke dyakho, aste na aste jobdo korchhe! Pore, uNki mere
dyakhe je majhe majhe-i notun bou ektu dur theke shashuDir dike hoy
aykta choD, noy bNoTi tule ni:shobde shashiye jachhe, ar shonge shonge
shashuDi chithkar shuru kore dichhe :)

-Samir

-Samir

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Rajibbabu likhechen:

>eTa poDe koutuhol jaglo je notun bou kano baDir modhye shob cheye
>durbol? bhul bojhabujhi jate na hoy: apnar assertion contest korcchi

>na. shudhu alochona korte chai je eTa kano ghoTe? jamon dhorun pure
>male-domination diye bojhanoTa ki plausible?

Aamar mote tar karon holo notun-poribeshjonok aykta insecurity,
shomajer aykta indirect chaap maaniye neowar...shadharonoto maniye
neowar expectation-ta tNar thekei beshi thaake, hoito bakira majority,
aei monobhaab-boshoto.

> Pashchatyo shobhyota'o
>to male dominated, kintu shekhane shashuDir ki bharotiyo shashuDir
>moton-i power thake? bodh hoy na. tai mone hoy je bharotiyo
>setting'a ki ki aaro ullkhjogyo differences thakte pare jate ei
>phenomenonTa explain kora jete paare (explain shobdoTa social science
>orthei byabohar korcchi kintu). ektu details of the process niye
>alochona korle badhito hobo.

Dekhun, aykshonge na thaakle shahsurider khomota prokaash onektai lop
pai, tai e deshe desher moto situation paben na. Oi kono occasion-e
shobai ayk jote holo, aar pochondo na holey nim-pata gelaar moto
konobhaabe shomoi kaatiye dilo. Tarpor orthonoitik diktar kothao bhulle
cholbe na, ayk shonge thaakte gele, sheti-o ekti mosto role play kore.
Kichu aymon odbhut ghotona dyakha jai, jeguli byakkha kora shotti-ee
khub mushkil. Chele tNar jonyo prochur ortho byay korbe aei aasha jodi
keu na-o kore thaaken, kintu bou-er jonyo khoroch korche dekhle onek
shashuri-ee rege jaan. Aar ki ki ullekhjogyo difference aache bolunto?

>ei proshonge ullekh kora jete pare matritwo ebong bouer positioner
>somporko: ekbar ma hoye gele, bouer positionTa kintu aaro dridho hoy
>jay karon tokhon she bacchar main care-giver.

Hain, shetai aykta bNachowa, at least je je khetre bou khub-ee durbol.

>rajib

[Dadu]

Eta ehkonkar midlle-upper class-er potobhumite besh mojar alochona.
Jodio ami shurur theke eta poDini-; dhore nichchhi, eta private
kothopokothon noi.

Sharmila Mukherjee wrote:
>
> Rajibbabu likhechen:
>
> >eTa poDe koutuhol jaglo je notun bou kano baDir modhye shob cheye
> >durbol?

Seta khub swabhabik. Biyer pore showsur baDi jodi keu ghojamai thakte
jaan, teer paben thela khana.

... bhul bojhabujhi jate na hoy: apnar assertion contest korcchi

> >na. shudhu alochona korte chai je eTa kano ghoTe? jamon dhorun pure
> >male-domination diye bojhanoTa ki plausible?

> Aamar mote tar karon holo notun-poribeshjonok aykta insecurity,
> shomajer aykta indirect chaap maaniye neowar...shadharonoto maniye
> neowar expectation-ta tNar thekei beshi thaake, hoito bakira majority,
> aei monobhaab-boshoto.

Eta puro puri male domination-er bapyer noi, female domination-er-o. Sp.
ei bapyarta prominent chhilo bochhor 40-er aage, jokhon bou-ra
pryasha:-i nabalika hoto, ebong ordho shikhita-o. Onek shomoi-e bou-ra
shashuri-der domination-e thakto, ebong, refuse peto shoshur-der theke.
(kichhudin age Arnab babu S.Ray-er 'Devi' poshonge ullekh korechhilen,
bou-der shoshur-er podesheba; Freudian hints etc.). Ekta boDo group of
bou-shoshur close relation bengali family-te dekha jai, ebong, ami ta
Freud diye bakhya korte raji noi. Ami nije er onek dristanto dekhechhi.

> > Pashchatyo shobhyota'o
> >to male dominated, kintu shekhane shashuDir ki bharotiyo shashuDir
> >moton-i power thake? bodh hoy na. tai mone hoy je bharotiyo
> >setting'a ki ki aaro ullkhjogyo differences thakte pare jate ei
> >phenomenonTa explain kora jete paare (explain shobdoTa social science
> >orthei byabohar korcchi kintu). ektu details of the process niye
> >alochona korle badhito hobo.

Beshir bhag somoye-i thake na. Tar ekta bishesh karon holo, smallar and
cellular family. Eta ekhon Bangla teo chole esechhe. Khub kom shomoe-i
aajkal boura shashuri der bhoi paan. Ulte, shashurira, bisheshoto:
jokhon, notun boura ektu bidushi- bouder besh somjhe cholen. Family-r
scope aajkal onek limited hoe gechhe.

> Kichu aymon odbhut ghotona dyakha jai, jeguli byakkha kora shotti-ee
> khub mushkil. Chele tNar jonyo prochur ortho byay korbe aei aasha jodi
> keu na-o kore thaaken, kintu bou-er jonyo khoroch korche dekhle onek
> shashuri-ee rege jaan. Aar ki ki ullekhjogyo difference aache bolunto?

Kichhu jodi na mone koren, ekta byapar eDye jachhen.

Shashuri ebong bou kichhu alada breed noi. Deshe ekta kotha achhe,
"prothom jibone meye baper, tar pore, swami-r, ebong shesh jibone
chheler". Ei process-ta, orthat meye-der poro-mukhapekkhita amader deshe
'taken for granted' chhilo; jaar jonye, ekta stage-e jokhon Ma chheler
upor economically and socially dependant, tokhon, onyo ekta meye-o, Bou
hoye sei chheler upor economically and socially dependant. Sutorang,
clash of personalities to hobei!

Aar ekhon onek somoy-ei, bisheshoto: paschatyo abong adhunik bharatiya
somaje, jamai (son-in-law) ebong shashuri (mother in law) clash onek
beshi hochchhe. Chaka ghurchhe arki!

>
> >ei proshonge ullekh kora jete pare matritwo ebong bouer positioner
> >somporko: ekbar ma hoye gele, bouer positionTa kintu aaro dridho hoy
> >jay karon tokhon she bacchar main care-giver.

tar karon, cycle ta abar ghurte shuru korechhe.

Bapyarta bujhte parben, jodi beshi din eirokom "International School of
Theoretical Marriage"-er chhatro/chhatri na theke, pathok/lekhok borgo
buk thuke ekta kore jaNdrel shashuri and/or bou dekhe "neme-i" poDen.
Shushur-er baDi-gaDi dekhte hobe na, sagor pare jokhon esei podechhen,
o'-somosto hoei jabe.

Dhanya-bad.

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Dadu-babu likhechen:

>
> Eta ehkonkar midlle-upper class-er potobhumite besh mojar alochona.

Aapnar eta mojar mone hochche? Hmmm....I guess any reaction is better
than none.

> Jodio ami shurur theke eta poDini-; dhore nichchhi, eta private
> kothopokothon noi.

Aykebaarei noi, aapni shohashye jhNaapiye poDte paren.

> Seta khub swabhabik. Biyer pore showsur baDi jodi keu ghojamai thakte
> jaan, teer paben thela khana.

Tar maney aapni bolte chaichen je ghor-jamai-der(jodi keu thaaken)
ayk-ee problem face korte hoi? TNader opore-o shahsuri-der ayk-ee rokom
protaap thaake?

[...]

> Beshir bhag somoye-i thake na. Tar ekta bishesh karon holo, smallar and
> cellular family. Eta ekhon Bangla teo chole esechhe. Khub kom shomoe-i
> aajkal boura shashuri der bhoi paan. Ulte, shashurira, bisheshoto:
> jokhon, notun boura ektu bidushi- bouder besh somjhe cholen. Family-r
> scope aajkal onek limited hoe gechhe.

Dekhun, kotha hochchilo shomporker tiktota niye. Jeshob khetre
shahsurider kortritto thakena ta je karonei hok, shekhane-o kintu modhur
shomporko dyakha jai na. Aar `family-r scope' bolte aapni thik ki
bojhachchen bolunto?

> Kichhu jodi na mone koren, ekta byapar eDye jachhen.
>
> Shashuri ebong bou kichhu alada breed noi. Deshe ekta kotha achhe,
> "prothom jibone meye baper, tar pore, swami-r, ebong shesh jibone
> chheler". Ei process-ta, orthat meye-der poro-mukhapekkhita amader deshe
> 'taken for granted' chhilo; jaar jonye, ekta stage-e jokhon Ma chheler
> upor economically and socially dependant, tokhon, onyo ekta meye-o, Bou
> hoye sei chheler upor economically and socially dependant. Sutorang,
> clash of personalities to hobei!

Bah, eta to darun! Aapni aykhono mandhata aamoler dohai diye aei
byaparta-ke explain korte chaichen. Tar mane aapnar mote jekhane ma-era
socially and economically dependent non cheler opor, shekhane clash of
personalities hobe na. Kintu baastobe tai dyakha jai ki?

>
> Aar ekhon onek somoy-ei, bisheshoto: paschatyo abong adhunik bharatiya
> somaje, jamai (son-in-law) ebong shashuri (mother in law) clash onek
> beshi hochchhe. Chaka ghurchhe arki!

Tar manei kintu eta noi je bou-shashuri-r golai golai bhaab dyakha
jachche.

Regards,

[sibabrata ray]

Sharmila Mukherjee (s...@shiva.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu) wrote:

: Na, aami thik ta jante chaini. Aamar proshno ta chilo je aei je

: shashurider byabohaar, er utsho ta thik kothai? Chele por hoye jachche
: aei monobhaab theke na shudhu khomota jahir korar aykti jaiga na dutoi?
: Duto hole konti beshi powerful?

Dharun on the average jadi durbaler upar atyachar karar probability p hay,
ebong shashurir badhumatar upar atyachar karar shambhabana jadi P hay tabe
P-p should be attributed to the other factor. Ebare er upar depend kore akta
sample survey design kore data collect kore tarpar ANOVA ar principle component
analysis korei apnar prashner qualitative and quantitative - du-rakam jabab-i
dayoa jabe.

Notwithstanding the above surmonization, I think there is no concensus or even
significant majority opinion on this issue.

: Why not? Do we really have to take it for granted? Then it leaves no

: room for any change/improvement whatsoever.

Yes, I think we shall really have to take it for granted. As the old adage
goes, you can lead the horse to the water ..... Ar hriday-paribartaner andolan
ami arthahin bolei mane kori. Shoja kathay, shashuri ar badhumatar madhye
conflict-er bahu material cause ache. Guti dui karan to apni-i bolechen. Tarpar
dharun ekannabarti paribare shangsharer kartritta, badhumata kartritte agrahi
na hole parishram ke beshi o ke kam korben, generation gap (``Challo churi
hat-hat kore barer shange maal khete'' vs. ``Buri magi sharadin ranna korchei
to karchei, na jane latest gaynar design, na jane ghar-ta ektu shundar kore
shajate.''), arthanaitik ashamya (``mane rekho bouma, akhono uni rojgar kore
anchen tai khachho'' vs. ``shangshar baranor shamay apnader-o ektu bhaba uchit
chilo maa. Amra to duti prani. Kintu ardheker opor shangshar kharach-to
amrai dichhi'') ad infinitum. Bujhtei parche, jatata udar hote parle ei shab
shangat sab-i avoid kara jay, tata-ta udar manush hote parle communism would
be a viable alternative.

: I wouldn't generalise in that way, no matter what your friends say. It

: can be termed as formal, in my opinion.

Mane pore galo, ``jaar naam chalbhaja, tar-i naam muri, jaar mathay paka chul
tare kay buri''.

: Probably that will become the case

: > back home also when our womenfolk will become more independent, economically
: > and otherwise.

: Could you explain as to why you think so? Why should it make any
: difference in the relationship between bou and shashuri?

No, you got me wrong. I meant, in our country, mother-in-law appease the
son-in-law because in most of the cases, the future happiness of her daughter
depends on him and she is on the receiving end only. However, when our
womenfolk will become more independent, I believe that the relationship
between the son-in-laws and the mother-in-laws will change for worse. Of course
Nirod C. Chowdhuri would have a different opinion here.:-)

: I disagree with you completely. Leaving aside harrasments(which I wont

: go into because we all recognise it being deplorable), I think it IS
: possible to have a perfectly amicable relationship, once we diagnose the
: cause accurately.

Let us disagree. I have lost my faith, probably due to my old age.

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Sibabratababu likhechen:

>Ar hriday-paribartaner andolan
>ami arthahin bolei mane kori. Shoja kathay, shashuri ar badhumatar >madhye
>conflict-er bahu material cause ache. Guti dui karan to apni-i >bolechen. Tarpar
>dharun ekannabarti paribare shangsharer kartritta, badhumata kartritte >agrahi
>na hole parishram ke beshi o ke kam korben, generation gap (``Challo >churi
>hat-hat kore barer shange maal khete'' vs. ``Buri magi sharadin ranna >korchei
>to karchei, na jane latest gaynar design, na jane ghar-ta ektu shundar >kore
>shajate.''), arthanaitik ashamya (``mane rekho bouma, akhono uni rojgar >kore
>anchen tai khachho'' vs. ``shangshar baranor shamay apnader-o ektu >bhaba uchit
>chilo maa. Amra to duti prani. Kintu ardheker opor shangshar kharach-to
>amrai dichhi'') ad infinitum. Bujhtei parche, jatata udar hote parle ei >shab
>shangat sab-i avoid kara jay, tata-ta udar manush hote parle communism >would
>be a viable alternative.

Dekhun Sibabratababu, kichu mone korben na, aapnar moto monobhaab aami
rakhina, sheta bolai bahulyo. Perfection-er aasha nao rakha jete pare,
kintu
improvement-er aasha shob shomoi-ee rakha jete pare, aei aamar bishwash.
Aar
jodi shudhu negative dikta-i dyakhen, tahole to manusher haat-pa gutiye
boshe
thaaka chaDa aar kichu korar nei. After all, du pokkhoi sensible, ektu
cheshta
korle tNader thekey juktishongoto byabohaar paowa jaabe aei aasha kora
jetei pare.

> Mane pore galo, ``jaar naam chalbhaja, tar-i naam muri, jaar >mathay paka chul
>tare kay buri''.

Du:khito, thik maante parlaam na.

>Let us disagree. I have lost my faith, probably due to my old age.

Let us hope that you may regain it, `old age' not withstanding, :-)

[Indrani DasGupta]

Sharmila Mukherjee wrote:

>
>Aachcha aykta kotha bolun. Bola hoye thaake je chele haat kore nichche
>bole shashuri-der bou-der proti raag hoi, aar shei raag thekei aashe
>bou-der proti durbyabohaar/otyachar. Othoba, aykkaale nije bhuktobhugi,

ShashuRi-der bou-er opor raag? Achcha manlam. Kintu generalize jodi
korte-i hoy, tahole to shei phulshojya-r raate biRal mara-r golpo-r
moto-o kora jaye?

>tai sheti onyer opor folaanor cheshta. Kintu tahole `nonodini rai
>baghini-r' aachoron bojhano jai na, jodi dwityiota karon hoi. Aamar mote

Bolbo shahosh kore? 'Nonodini rai-baghini'-der boudi-r upor rosh-er
karon? Oi ak-i. Generalization. Ma-er dukhkho-durdosha dekhte kaar bhalo
laage bolo? "Ishh...Amaar ma-ke koto shojhyo korte hoyechhe akkale...aar
ei meyeta eshe shob dedaar peye jaabe?" type-er generalization.

>tar theke-o boro aykta karon aache, noromer proti kortritto folano.

>Shotti bolte ki baDir modhye shob cheye durbol to notun bou-ee; aar aei

>purush-shashito shomaje khub kom-ee jaiga aache jekhane meyera tNader
>khomota/kortritto folate paren. Shei jonyoi dyakha jai je kichu kichu
>khetre shashuri-der mone mone ichche thaakle-o paren na, karon bou-era

>hoito norom/durbol non. Etao dyakha gyache je notun bou jokhon aar notun
>thaaken na, tokhon durbyabohaar-o aar hoi na.

Not exactly. Tokhon durbyabohar-ta hoyto onno ronge raaNgiye deowa hoy.

Aamar mote tokhon tini aar
>norom thaken na, shongshaare aykta foothold peye jaan, insecurity
>onektai kome aashe. Shutoraang aamar mote bottom line is je chele por

>hoye jachche o shob baje kotha, shashurider aei byabohaar stems from the
>inherent tendency of human beings to dominate over the weak, be it a man
>or a woman. Aapnader e byapare ki motaamot jaante aagrohi roilaam.
>
>Sharmila
>

Proshno: Shashuri-ra ato-ta "ashkara" (pardon the expression) paan-i ba
kothheke? BaDi-r onno lok-eder ki haat nei ete? Is she the pepetrator or,
in reality, the victim? Of her past and, perhaps, the present situation?
Ekkhetre bou-ra-o kintu "kom jaan na". Akta jinish mon-e rakha uchit je
bou-era-o to arekti, hoyto ak-i taar-e bNadha, shongshaar theke
aashchhen? Tai noy ki?

Indrani.

[Shyam]

Sharmila Mukherjee wrote:
>
> Dadu-babu likhechen:
> >
> > Eta ehkonkar midlle-upper class-er potobhumite besh mojar alochona.
>
> Aapnar eta mojar mone hochche? Hmmm....I guess any reaction is better
> than none.

Mojar, karon ei byapar ta onekta-i mandhata amoler. Ami bolchhina je eta
(shashuDi-bou tiktota) lop peye gachhe, kintu ekhonkar dine etar chehara
onyo rokom. Ulte ami onek somoi-e dekhechhi, boura shashuDi-der opor
khoDgo-hosto. Sutorang, aajker potobhumi-te eta (boura shashuDi der
haate nirjatito) amar ektu mojar alochona mone hoechhe arki!

>
> > Jodio ami shurur theke eta poDini-; dhore nichchhi, eta private
> > kothopokothon noi.
>
> Aykebaarei noi, aapni shohashye jhNaapiye poDte paren.

Onumoti shirodharjyo!

>
> > Seta khub swabhabik. Biyer pore showsur baDi jodi keu ghojamai thakte
> > jaan, teer paben thela khana.
>
> Tar maney aapni bolte chaichen je ghor-jamai-der(jodi keu thaaken)
> ayk-ee problem face korte hoi? TNader opore-o shahsuri-der ayk-ee rokom
> protaap thaake?

Ei para ta durbolota proshonge (nirjatan proshonge noi). Durbolota besh
onek-tai thake (bisheshoto jodi jamai aarthik dike shoshur baDi-r upor
nirvorshil hon). Jodi keu ei bapyar-tae sahosh dite paren, amar mone
hoi, ghor-jamai er sonkha onek briddhi paabe.

>
> [...]
>
> > Beshir bhag somoye-i thake na. Tar ekta bishesh karon holo, smallar and
> > cellular family. Eta ekhon Bangla teo chole esechhe. Khub kom shomoe-i
> > aajkal boura shashuri der bhoi paan. Ulte, shashurira, bisheshoto:
> > jokhon, notun boura ektu bidushi- bouder besh somjhe cholen. Family-r
> > scope aajkal onek limited hoe gechhe.
>
> Dekhun, kotha hochchilo shomporker tiktota niye. Jeshob khetre
> shahsurider kortritto thakena ta je karonei hok, shekhane-o kintu modhur
> shomporko dyakha jai na. Aar `family-r scope' bolte aapni thik ki
> bojhachchen bolunto?

Dekhun, amar oporer para ta, shashuDi-der domination proshonge- ja
somehow culminate kore somporker tiktota te. Jekhane jekhane modhur
somporko thake na, sekhane sob somoi kintu shashuDi-der domination
ekmatro karon noi. Ami ei rokom onek somporko-i dekhechhi, jekhane
chheler 'dokhol' niye bou ebong shashiDi-r modhye tiktota dekha
diyechhe. Abar ulto tao. Bohu somporko-i aachhe, jekhane meyer 'dokhol'
niye (bisheshoto: jodi ek meye hon) jamai-shashuDi-r modhye besh tiktota
aachhe. Amar ekkhuni mone poDchhe, duto Kolkatai, ebong at least tinte
bideshe dekhechhi.

Tar mane, ektu beshi boyoshe, mohilader kotritya kora ta most probably,
inherent; jodi keu (bou ba jamai- probably in the same stance) seta
pochhondo na koren, mon kosha koshi to hobei.

Kichhu mone korben na, amar mone hochchhe, apni byaparta ektu ektoropha
dekhchhen. Apni jodi shashuDi-bou modhur somporko na dekhe thaken, tobe
michha-i durbhabito hoch´chhen. Bohu somoei shashuDi-ra ei social
tension er baire giye bouder songe modhur somporko goDe tolen. Believe
me!

>
> > Kichhu jodi na mone koren, ekta byapar eDye jachhen.
> >
> > Shashuri ebong bou kichhu alada breed noi. Deshe ekta kotha achhe,
> > "prothom jibone meye baper, tar pore, swami-r, ebong shesh jibone
> > chheler". Ei process-ta, orthat meye-der poro-mukhapekkhita amader deshe
> > 'taken for granted' chhilo; jaar jonye, ekta stage-e jokhon Ma chheler
> > upor economically and socially dependant, tokhon, onyo ekta meye-o, Bou
> > hoye sei chheler upor economically and socially dependant. Sutorang,
> > clash of personalities to hobei!
>
> Bah, eta to darun! Aapni aykhono mandhata aamoler dohai diye aei
> byaparta-ke explain korte chaichen.

Bollami to je, eta amar aajker potobhumite ektoropha mone hoechhe.
Ekhon, shashuDi-bou er modhye somporko-te dudiker-i bhumika achhe.

....Tar mane aapnar mote jekhane ma-era

> socially and economically dependent non cheler opor, shekhane clash of
> personalities hobe na. Kintu baastobe tai dyakha jai ki?

Kothae ta bolechhi? Tahole, shashuDi-jamai clash ja shudhu ami-i noi,
aro-o ekjon bolechhen, ta hobe keno? Psychological dependence ki
ekdom-i chole gechhe?

Jeta bolte cheyechhhi, ta holo, jodi clash hoi, tobe bouder bhumika
ekhon onek beshi.

> >
> > Aar ekhon onek somoy-ei, bisheshoto: paschatyo abong adhunik bharatiya
> > somaje, jamai (son-in-law) ebong shashuri (mother in law) clash onek
> > beshi hochchhe. Chaka ghurchhe arki!
>
> Tar manei kintu eta noi je bou-shashuri-r golai golai bhaab dyakha
> jachche.

Onek beshi somoe-i ta dekha jachchhe. Ekta real life golpo boli.

Jokhon amar mastuto boner biye holo, tar shashuDi tader baDi theke
meyetike tule niye giechhilen, baDi ghor dekhanor jonye. Ami tokhon-i
take bolechhilum oi baDite biye korish na- jhogDa korte parbi na. Kintu
se shunlo na. Egaro bochhor pore giye dekhi tar haNDir haal! Tar
shashuDi topa kul-ti hoye ghure beDachchhen, aar se joint family-r
manager, bajar sorkar, head cook, bachchha samlano, shoshurer paye tel
deoa-, ebong, hNa, school-e poDano (habi jabi ja Rajabazar theke
shikhechhilo) ityadi sob kore- praye gNop chhaDa Hitler-er moto chahara
kore phelechhe.

Ki mone hoi, aajker potobhumite, jhogDate shashuDi bhalo, na ei rokom
diplomat shashuDi?

Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen. Bodhu
nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!

Ekhon kar moto ei porjonto.

Dhanyabaad.

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Shyambabu (na dadu-babu?) likhechen:

> Mojar, karon ei byapar ta onekta-i mandhata amoler. Ami bolchhina je eta
> (shashuDi-bou tiktota) lop peye gachhe, kintu ekhonkar dine etar chehara
> onyo rokom. Ulte ami onek somoi-e dekhechhi, boura shashuDi-der opor
> khoDgo-hosto. Sutorang, aajker potobhumi-te eta (boura shashuDi der
> haate nirjatito) amar ektu mojar alochona mone hoechhe arki!

Aapni kon shorge baash korchen bolunto? Aajkaalkar bou-era shahsurider
haate nirjatito non? Sharirik otyachar-er kotha na hoi cheDei
dilaam(sheti je aaj-o aache ta aapnio janen aamio jani), kintu manoshik?
Aar hote paare je kono kono khetre ultota dyakha jai, kintu tai boley
shashurider protaap non-existant etai ba aapni bolen ki bhaabe?

> Ei para ta durbolota proshonge (nirjatan proshonge noi). Durbolota besh
> onek-tai thake (bisheshoto jodi jamai aarthik dike shoshur baDi-r upor
> nirvorshil hon). Jodi keu ei bapyar-tae sahosh dite paren, amar mone
> hoi, ghor-jamai er sonkha onek briddhi paabe.

Taate ki elo-gyalo?

> Dekhun, amar oporer para ta, shashuDi-der domination proshonge- ja
> somehow culminate kore somporker tiktota te. Jekhane jekhane modhur
> somporko thake na, sekhane sob somoi kintu shashuDi-der domination
> ekmatro karon noi. Ami ei rokom onek somporko-i dekhechhi, jekhane
> chheler 'dokhol' niye bou ebong shashiDi-r modhye tiktota dekha
> diyechhe. Abar ulto tao. Bohu somporko-i aachhe, jekhane meyer 'dokhol'
> niye (bisheshoto: jodi ek meye hon) jamai-shashuDi-r modhye besh tiktota
> aachhe.

Shetai to aami bolte chaichi, je `dokhol' naamok jinish niye
chNyachamechi korar kono maane aache? Chele chair na table? Aamar mote
puro byaparta-tei immaturity-r gondho aache, ektu dheer-stheer bhaabe
chinta bhaabna korle kichu upai berotei paare.

> Tar mane, ektu beshi boyoshe, mohilader kotritya kora ta most probably,
> inherent; jodi keu (bou ba jamai- probably in the same stance) seta
> pochhondo na koren, mon kosha koshi to hobei.

Beshi boyoshe kyano, jekono boyoshei hote pare..I think it is equally
inherent in females as in males.

> dekhchhen. Apni jodi shashuDi-bou modhur somporko na dekhe thaken, tobe
> michha-i durbhabito hoch´chhen. Bohu somoei shashuDi-ra ei social
> tension er baire giye bouder songe modhur somporko goDe tolen. Believe
> me!

Bolchen jokhon tokhon manlaam, tobe e byapar-e aami ayka noi.
Odhikaangsho loke-i dyakhen ni. Sibabratababu to bolei dilen je tikto
shomporko `cholche, cholbe'.

> Bollami to je, eta amar aajker potobhumite ektoropha mone hoechhe.
> Ekhon, shashuDi-bou er modhye somporko-te dudiker-i bhumika achhe.

Nishchoi aache, ebong dujon-e cheshta korle er aykta bihit hobe na mone
koren?

> Kothae ta bolechhi? Tahole, shashuDi-jamai clash ja shudhu ami-i noi,
> aro-o ekjon bolechhen, ta hobe keno? Psychological dependence ki
> ekdom-i chole gechhe?

O tahole aapni psychology-te jachchen. Tahole aei baar bolun je
shashuri jate mentally insecure feel na koren, sheta dyakhar bhaar kar?

>
> Jeta bolte cheyechhhi, ta holo, jodi clash hoi, tobe bouder bhumika
> ekhon onek beshi.

Dekhun, eta situation-er opor nirbhor kore. Bhumika jar-ee beshi
thaakuk, kotha hochche upai ber kora niye.

[..]

> Jokhon amar mastuto boner biye holo, tar shashuDi tader baDi theke
> meyetike tule niye giechhilen, baDi ghor dekhanor jonye. Ami tokhon-i
> take bolechhilum oi baDite biye korish na- jhogDa korte parbi na. Kintu
> se shunlo na. Egaro bochhor pore giye dekhi tar haNDir haal! Tar
> shashuDi topa kul-ti hoye ghure beDachchhen, aar se joint family-r
> manager, bajar sorkar, head cook, bachchha samlano, shoshurer paye tel
> deoa-, ebong, hNa, school-e poDano (habi jabi ja Rajabazar theke
> shikhechhilo) ityadi sob kore- praye gNop chhaDa Hitler-er moto chahara
> kore phelechhe.
>
> Ki mone hoi, aajker potobhumite, jhogDate shashuDi bhalo, na ei rokom
> diplomat shashuDi?

Aapni bodh hoi mone koren je er cheye jhogDa korle bodh hoi bhalo hoto,
kintu aami ta mone kori na. E khetre shashuri ekti pNyaach koshlen,
kintu bou tar palta jobaab dite paren ni.

>
> Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen. Bodhu
> nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!

Bodhu-nirjatoner aapnar ki definition jani na, tobe aapni je ghotona-r
kotha bollen aamar mote shetao nirjaton.

>
> Ekhon kar moto ei porjonto.

Aapnar motamoter opekkhai roilaam.
>
> Dhanyabaad.

Aapnake-o, onek.

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Indrani DasGupta wrote:

> Bolbo shahosh kore? 'Nonodini rai-baghini'-der boudi-r upor rosh-er
> karon? Oi ak-i. Generalization. Ma-er dukhkho-durdosha dekhte kaar bhalo
> laage bolo? "Ishh...Amaar ma-ke koto shojhyo korte hoyechhe akkale...aar
> ei meyeta eshe shob dedaar peye jaabe?" type-er generalization.

Hmm..eta mondo bolo ni..interesting! Kintu eta to sensible
chintadhara-r porichoi noi. Ma aykkaale du:kho peyechen bole bou-ke-o oi
pothe jor kore niye jete hobe?

Etao dyakha gyache je notun bou jokhon aar notun
> >thaaken na, tokhon durbyabohaar-o aar hoi na.
>
> Not exactly. Tokhon durbyabohar-ta hoyto onno ronge raaNgiye deowa hoy.

Jyamon?

> Proshno: Shashuri-ra ato-ta "ashkara" (pardon the expression) paan-i ba
> kothheke? BaDi-r onno lok-eder ki haat nei ete? Is she the pepetrator or,
> in reality, the victim? Of her past and, perhaps, the present situation?

It is a distinct possibility..shei jonyoi aamar mone hoi je etar
solution holo shashuri aar bou-er level of communication barano.

> Ekkhetre bou-ra-o kintu "kom jaan na". Akta jinish mon-e rakha uchit je
> bou-era-o to arekti, hoyto ak-i taar-e bNadha, shongshaar theke
> aashchhen? Tai noy ki?

ta to botei...shob kichur-ee alada role aache, ebong aei shob kheyal
rekhei du-pokkher egono uchit.

[Srabani Banerjee]

Shyam Chakraborty writes:

[...]

>Dekhun, amar oporer para ta, shashuDi-der domination proshonge- ja
>somehow culminate kore somporker tiktota te. Jekhane jekhane modhur
>somporko thake na, sekhane sob somoi kintu shashuDi-der domination
>ekmatro karon noi. Ami ei rokom onek somporko-i dekhechhi, jekhane
>chheler 'dokhol' niye bou ebong shashiDi-r modhye tiktota dekha
>diyechhe. Abar ulto tao. Bohu somporko-i aachhe, jekhane meyer 'dokhol'
>niye (bisheshoto: jodi ek meye hon) jamai-shashuDi-r modhye besh tiktota

>aachhe. Amar ekkhuni mone poDchhe, duto Kolkatai, ebong at least tinte
>bideshe dekhechhi.
>

>Tar mane, ektu beshi boyoshe, mohilader kotritya kora ta most probably,
>inherent;

Ta ei oshadharon shiddhantey ki kore elen? Apnar oi Kolkatar duto ar
bidesh-er tin-te case dekhei?

jodi keu (bou ba jamai- probably in the same stance) seta
>pochhondo na koren, mon kosha koshi to hobei.
>

>Kichhu mone korben na, amar mone hochchhe, apni byaparta ektu ektoropha

>dekhchhen. Apni jodi shashuDi-bou modhur somporko na dekhe thaken, tobe
>michha-i durbhabito hoch´chhen. Bohu somoei shashuDi-ra ei social
>tension er baire giye bouder songe modhur somporko goDe tolen. Believe
>me!

Right, kintu she'rom dekhlei amra shegulo-ke exception bole katiye
diye thaki.

[...]

>Kothae ta bolechhi? Tahole, shashuDi-jamai clash ja shudhu ami-i noi,
>aro-o ekjon bolechhen, ta hobe keno? Psychological dependence ki
>ekdom-i chole gechhe?
>

>Jeta bolte cheyechhhi, ta holo, jodi clash hoi, tobe bouder bhumika
>ekhon onek beshi.

Kano? Manet bhumika kom-beshi-ta apni aager theke dhore nilen ki kore?

[...]

>Onek beshi somoe-i ta dekha jachchhe. Ekta real life golpo boli.
>

>Jokhon amar mastuto boner biye holo, tar shashuDi tader baDi theke
>meyetike tule niye giechhilen, baDi ghor dekhanor jonye. Ami tokhon-i
>take bolechhilum oi baDite biye korish na- jhogDa korte parbi na. Kintu
>se shunlo na. Egaro bochhor pore giye dekhi tar haNDir haal! Tar
>shashuDi topa kul-ti hoye ghure beDachchhen,

Ekta kotha na bole parlam na - apnar bhasha-ti kintu besh. Apnar ekjon
atMiya, jNar konobhaabe nijeke ei adday defend korar upay nei - tNar
shommondhe besh likhe dilen to oi shesher line-ta!

aar se joint family-r
>manager, bajar sorkar, head cook, bachchha samlano, shoshurer paye tel
>deoa-, ebong, hNa, school-e poDano (habi jabi ja Rajabazar theke
>shikhechhilo) ityadi sob kore- praye gNop chhaDa Hitler-er moto chahara
>kore phelechhe.

Maap korben, kintu apnar bon e'rom ekta abostha mene niechhen kano?

>Ki mone hoi, aajker potobhumite, jhogDate shashuDi bhalo, na ei rokom
>diplomat shashuDi?

Apni ekta anecdote shonale ami to doshta shonate pari - tai diye ki proman
hoy Sir?

Amar to monet hoy problem-ta ekhanei - shashuDi-bou-er shomporkota ekta
duto anecdote-er bhittite-i stereotype kore pheli. Ami to bohu shami-stree-r
modhye, baba-chhele-r modhye, shoshur-jamai-er modhye, bhai-bhai-er modhye
khub kharap shomporko dekhechhi - egulo kintu ektao stereotyped hoyna.

>Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen.

Na hole bhalo hoto?

Bodhu
>nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!

Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.

>Ekhon kar moto ei porjonto.

Srabani

[Absaha]

Ei "byaparta" Bangalider ba Bharatiyader ekchetia noi, tobay amader
somaajay
eta ekrokom 'particular form' e manifest hoi. Social equation aachhay,
ekottha ekshobaar. Ei niyay ekhanay onekei montobbya korechhen. Tobay
er picchonay ekta mool psychological aspect o royechhay, ebong sheta
Universal, ortthat bharatiya ba bangalider moddhyay shimabaddha noi.

Saral bhhasha te ekti boyi bohu kaal aage porechhilaam. Ei sutro
porte-porte sheti baar koray dhulo jhaarlam. Reference ta dicchi:

SHE: Understanding Feminine Psychology -- R. A. Johnson
Harper & Row 1977
ISBN: 0-06-080416-5
(An interpretation based on the myth of Amor and Psyche and using Jungian
psychological concepts)

70 pages er choti boi. Apnara keu jodi poDen taholay oboshyoi apnaader
protikriya janaaben.

ET
Abhijit

[sayan bhattacharyya]

In article <320BBE...@Finland.fi>, Dadu <da...@Finland.fi> wrote:
>Sharmila debi likhechhen:

>
>> Aar hote paare je kono kono khetre ultota dyakha jai, kintu tai boley
>> shashurider protaap non-existant etai ba aapni bolen ki bhaabe?
>

>Hothat shashuDi-der complete nokho-donto-heen kore dite chaichhen keno?
>seta ki banchhoniyo?

Part of the problem lies in the hidden assumption being made here
that all social relationships need to be based on domination. This
need not be so (although society indoctrinates us that it is so).

I suggest that those writing in this thread check out the following
URL:

http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian/1996/March/09-0396.html

-Sayan.

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Shyam-dadu likhechen:

> > Shyambabu (na dadu-babu?) likhechen:
>
> ekii bapyar! Eki lok.

Tobe dui naam kyano?

> etake aapnar shworgo bole mone holo? Jekhane shashuDi-bou-er modhye mon
> koshakoshi nei, dujone mile cinema deklhte jachchhe, shashuDi bou er
> proshongshai ponchmukh; bou baper baDi giye shashuDi-r ninde korchhe na-
> etake aapnar shworgo bole mone holo? Modhyobitto Bangaleer jiibone ta
> somuuho durbishoho. Jibone aar baki roilo ta ki?

:-).....jibon to tokhon shuru hobe, ki bolen?

> aamar dharona, ekhon je (shashuDi-bou) tension, taar opor dupokkher-i
> dwaitwo aachhe.

She to aachei, ebong tai to bojhar chesta korchi je what makes them
tick after all....

> Hothat shashuDi-der complete nokho-donto-heen kore dite chaichhen keno?
> seta ki banchhoniyo?

Aapnar e dharona holo ki kore bolunto?

> onek kichhu-i. Protaap thaka aar tar opobyabohar korar modhye ekta tofat
> ki nei?

Na, maane aami bolte chaichilaam je er shaathe(maane ghor-jamai)
aamader shuto-r shomporko koi?

> > Shetai to aami bolte chaichi, je `dokhol' naamok jinish niye
> > chNyachamechi korar kono maane aache?
>

> Eki, rege jachchhen keno?

O ma, rege jaabo kon du:khe?

[..] Bapyar ta holo,
> shada banglai, "possessiveness" theke. Ebong, eta ekta facet; onyanyo
> karon (economic, social etc.) thakle tarao play korbe boiki!

Sheta to shorbotroi, shob khetre...ebong sheta otoot-ee thaakbe aamar
bishwash, kintu tai bole shomoshyar shomadhan hobe na?

> Aamader jibone kishe immaturity-r gondho nie bolun to? "Nasa" theke
> "Horir naam", konta completely free from immaturity ?

Manlaam, tobe ebaar ki korben? Chirokaal immature hoyei thaakben?

> Orthat, eta swikar korchhen, notun bou-o swami-r opor kortrytwo korte
> shuru korte paaren, ja tension-e culminate korte paare?

Aare ki mushkil, kortritto raakhte ke baron koreche? Kintu tar aykta
sheema-porisheema bole kichu nei? Kortritter dohai diye jodi
durbyabohaar hoi, sheta to thik noi, she sthan-kaal-paatro je ba jai
hok.

>
> Tahole, eta shudhu "shashuDi-der aashol bapyar" -i noi, bola jete paare,
> "mohila-der (at earlier age Bou, later, ShashuDi) aashol byaparta ki?"

Dekhun, oi title-ti debaar pechone ekti-ee karon, shashuri-der
monobhaab jana-r/bojha-r cheshta, bou-der monobhaab aami kichuta aandaaj
korte pari..oi different generation-er byapar aar ki.

> Ete aami ektu aaschojyanwito hochchhi. Khub sombhob, aapni (ba, aapnara)
> ekta 'apriori bias' niye rekhechhen. Seta katiye uthte paarle, khub
> sombhob, ei somporko gulo onek sohoj hoe jaai.

Aykebaarei ta noi, borong aami to bolbo je aapni hoito kichu stray
incidents dekhe ektu beshi-ee nishchinto hoye poDechen.

> Ami bujhte parini tini shashuDi na bou er pokkho niye ta bolechhen.

Karur pokkho niye je bolte-i hobe aymon to kono kotha nei. Niropekkho
bhaabe aalochona koratai buddhimaaner kaaj, fol paowar aasha onek beshi.
>
> To add: Ekhonkar potobhumi te er ekta importance(!) o aachhe. For
> example, joint family ekhono porjonto completely extinct noi. Taar
> dwaitwo shobhaboto:i je part economically strong tar opore beshi. Jodi
> keu taar dwaityo na nite chaan, tobe, ei dhoroner tension cellular
> family-te shift korte sahajya korbe boiki.

Dekhun, cellular family-te theke-o kintu onek bou-shahsuri aei
shomoshyar bhuktobhugi, aar sheitai aaro chinta-r karon.

> > > Bollami to je, eta amar aajker potobhumite ektoropha mone hoechhe.
> > > Ekhon, shashuDi-bou er modhye somporko-te dudiker-i bhumika achhe.

Sheta to keu oshhsikaar koreni Shyam-babu!

> That's a very sensible approach, I appriciate this.

Dhonyobaad, sensible approach aamar prothom thekei chilo, aapni-ee bodh
hoi kheyal koren ni.

> Dekhun, notun bou ebong shashuDi-r initial conditions thik ek noi. The
> former is (expectedly) a bit more exposed, and literate, and young, and
> expected to provide more flexibility. Jodi keu taar advantage nite
> paaren, tobe bhishon bhabe ta hote paare. Jodi aapni ekdom-i incorigible
> shoshur baDi te jaan (bodh hoi ekta primary understanding of the family
> aapnake sahajyo korbe) tobe different.

Opor-e ja ja bolechen shob mene nilaam.

> Onyo dike, jodi keu sob somoy shoshur baDi-r dosh khNojen, taholeo
> mushkil!

Dekhun, shubichaar korun, tar shonge eta-o juDe din je jodi keu shob
shomoi bou-er dosh khNoje shetao onuchit!
>
> To add, ami definitely, "ek haate tali baje na" ityadi baaje probochon
> lagachchhi na.

:-), aachcha, thik aache.

> .........Tahole aei baar bolun je

> > shashuri jate mentally insecure feel na koren, sheta dyakhar bhaar kar?
>

> Seta dekhar bhar onektai bou-er (along with her husband)!

Bah, besh!!! Jini notun eshechen aykta ojana poribeshe, jNar
shashuri-ke chinte dher deri, dayitto-ta prodhanoto tNar hoye gyalo? Eta
ki rokom kotha holo? Aamar mote dayitto-ta sholo aana-i cheler, bou-er
olpo shohojogita-i.

.. Eta to situation, personal taste, what you're
> looking for ityadi onek jinisher opor depend korbe. Er ki konoo made
> easy toiri kora jaai?

na, ta jai na, kintu motamuti bhaabe kichuta generalise kore
solution-er dike agono jete pare...after all, ki ki karon-e mon kosha
koshi hote pare, sheguli to karur-ee ojana noi.

[..]
> There's a rosy side of fighting (sp. if you are not good enough
> diplomat)!

Aykebaare-i ta mante parlaam na, jhogra-i kono fol-ee paowa jai na,
majhkhaan theke shongshare je oshanti-r shrishti hoi, tar jontrona theke
shishura-o rokkha pai na.

> Note: All the 'You'-s above, are in third person.

She bishoi-e nishchoi karur shondeho jagbe na, :-)

Regards,

Sharmila

PS Aami ayk shoptaher jonyo baire jachchi. Kichu jodi mone na koren,
tahole aapnar uttor-er ayk copy jodi aamai e-mail-e pathiye dyan, tobe
khub upokaar hoi. Aami fire eshei jaate shuto-ti-te aabar jogdaan korte
pari.

[Dadu]

Sharmila debi likhechhen:
>
> Shyambabu (na dadu-babu?) likhechen:

ekii bapyar! Eki lok.

>

> > Mojar, karon ei byapar ta onekta-i mandhata amoler. Ami bolchhina je eta
> > (shashuDi-bou tiktota) lop peye gachhe, kintu ekhonkar dine etar chehara
> > onyo rokom. Ulte ami onek somoi-e dekhechhi, boura shashuDi-der opor
> > khoDgo-hosto. Sutorang, aajker potobhumi-te eta (boura shashuDi der
> > haate nirjatito) amar ektu mojar alochona mone hoechhe arki!
>
> Aapni kon shorge baash korchen bolunto?

etake aapnar shworgo bole mone holo? Jekhane shashuDi-bou-er modhye mon

koshakoshi nei, dujone mile cinema deklhte jachchhe, shashuDi bou er
proshongshai ponchmukh; bou baper baDi giye shashuDi-r ninde korchhe na-
etake aapnar shworgo bole mone holo? Modhyobitto Bangaleer jiibone ta
somuuho durbishoho. Jibone aar baki roilo ta ki?

Ami ekdom modhyo bityoBangali somaj-er kotha bolchhi. moteo ta shworgo
noi!

...Aajkaalkar bou-era shahsurider

> haate nirjatito non? Sharirik otyachar-er kotha na hoi cheDei
> dilaam(sheti je aaj-o aache ta aapnio janen aamio jani), kintu manoshik?

Without jokes, ei somporko ta completely neutral (swabhabik is probably
not the right term) noi. Thik kon somporko ta bolunto? Between hasband
and wife?

aamar dharona, ekhon je (shashuDi-bou) tension, taar opor dupokkher-i
dwaitwo aachhe.

> Aar hote paare je kono kono khetre ultota dyakha jai, kintu tai boley

> shashurider protaap non-existant etai ba aapni bolen ki bhaabe?

Hothat shashuDi-der complete nokho-donto-heen kore dite chaichhen keno?
seta ki banchhoniyo?

> > Ei para ta durbolota proshonge (nirjatan proshonge noi). Durbolota besh

> > onek-tai thake (bisheshoto jodi jamai aarthik dike shoshur baDi-r upor
> > nirvorshil hon). Jodi keu ei bapyar-tae sahosh dite paren, amar mone
> > hoi, ghor-jamai er sonkha onek briddhi paabe.
>
> Taate ki elo-gyalo?

onek kichhu-i. Protaap thaka aar tar opobyabohar korar modhye ekta tofat
ki nei?

>

> > Dekhun, amar oporer para ta, shashuDi-der domination proshonge- ja
> > somehow culminate kore somporker tiktota te. Jekhane jekhane modhur
> > somporko thake na, sekhane sob somoi kintu shashuDi-der domination
> > ekmatro karon noi. Ami ei rokom onek somporko-i dekhechhi, jekhane
> > chheler 'dokhol' niye bou ebong shashiDi-r modhye tiktota dekha
> > diyechhe. Abar ulto tao. Bohu somporko-i aachhe, jekhane meyer 'dokhol'
> > niye (bisheshoto: jodi ek meye hon) jamai-shashuDi-r modhye besh tiktota
> > aachhe.
>

> Shetai to aami bolte chaichi, je `dokhol' naamok jinish niye
> chNyachamechi korar kono maane aache?

Eki, rege jachchhen keno?

> .... Chele chair na table?

Eibaar apni mule taan diyechhen. Dekhun, ami ekhane shudhu chhele niye
boloni, meyeo onek somoy shashuDi-jamai er modhye tension er kaaron hoe
danDai. Meye-i ki chair na table? Tarao to noi, tobe? Bapyar ta holo,

shada banglai, "possessiveness" theke. Ebong, eta ekta facet; onyanyo
karon (economic, social etc.) thakle tarao play korbe boiki!

Aamar mote

> puro byaparta-tei immaturity-r gondho aache, ektu dheer-stheer bhaabe
> chinta bhaabna korle kichu upai berotei paare.

Aamader jibone kishe immaturity-r gondho nie bolun to? "Nasa" theke

"Horir naam", konta completely free from immaturity ?

>

> > Tar mane, ektu beshi boyoshe, mohilader kotritya kora ta most probably,

> > inherent; jodi keu (bou ba jamai- probably in the same stance) seta

> > pochhondo na koren, mon kosha koshi to hobei.
>

> Beshi boyoshe kyano, jekono boyoshei hote pare..I think it is equally
> inherent in females as in males.

Orthat, eta swikar korchhen, notun bou-o swami-r opor kortrytwo korte

shuru korte paaren, ja tension-e culminate korte paare?

Tahole, eta shudhu "shashuDi-der aashol bapyar" -i noi, bola jete paare,

"mohila-der (at earlier age Bou, later, ShashuDi) aashol byaparta ki?"

>

> > dekhchhen. Apni jodi shashuDi-bou modhur somporko na dekhe thaken, tobe
> > michha-i durbhabito hoch´chhen. Bohu somoei shashuDi-ra ei social
> > tension er baire giye bouder songe modhur somporko goDe tolen. Believe
> > me!
>

> Bolchen jokhon tokhon manlaam, tobe e byapar-e aami ayka noi.
> Odhikaangsho loke-i dyakhen ni.

Ete aami ektu aaschojyanwito hochchhi. Khub sombhob, aapni (ba, aapnara)

ekta 'apriori bias' niye rekhechhen. Seta katiye uthte paarle, khub
sombhob, ei somporko gulo onek sohoj hoe jaai.

.... Sibabratababu to bolei dilen je tikto
> shomporko `cholche, cholbe'.

Ami bujhte parini tini shashuDi na bou er pokkho niye ta bolechhen.

To add: Ekhonkar potobhumi te er ekta importance(!) o aachhe. For
example, joint family ekhono porjonto completely extinct noi. Taar
dwaitwo shobhaboto:i je part economically strong tar opore beshi. Jodi
keu taar dwaityo na nite chaan, tobe, ei dhoroner tension cellular
family-te shift korte sahajya korbe boiki.

depend korchhe ki bhabe dekhben tar opor.

> > Bollami to je, eta amar aajker potobhumite ektoropha mone hoechhe.
> > Ekhon, shashuDi-bou er modhye somporko-te dudiker-i bhumika achhe.
>

> Nishchoi aache, ebong dujon-e cheshta korle er aykta bihit hobe na mone
> koren?

That's a very sensible approach, I appriciate this. Can I add to it?

Dekhun, notun bou ebong shashuDi-r initial conditions thik ek noi. The
former is (expectedly) a bit more exposed, and literate, and young, and
expected to provide more flexibility. Jodi keu taar advantage nite
paaren, tobe bhishon bhabe ta hote paare. Jodi aapni ekdom-i incorigible
shoshur baDi te jaan (bodh hoi ekta primary understanding of the family
aapnake sahajyo korbe) tobe different.

Ami nitanto-i modhyo bityo bangali/Indian, some what literate families
mention korchhi.

Onyo dike, jodi keu sob somoy shoshur baDi-r dosh khNojen, taholeo
mushkil!

To add, ami definitely, "ek haate tali baje na" ityadi baaje probochon
lagachchhi na.

>

> > Kothae ta bolechhi? Tahole, shashuDi-jamai clash ja shudhu ami-i noi,
> > aro-o ekjon bolechhen, ta hobe keno? Psychological dependence ki
> > ekdom-i chole gechhe?
>

> O tahole aapni psychology-te jachchen.

Umm... psychology te thik jaai ni (no Freud please!) ami psychological
dependance er kotha bolchhilum.

.........Tahole aei baar bolun je
> shashuri jate mentally insecure feel na koren, sheta dyakhar bhaar kar?

Seta dekhar bhar onektai bou-er (along with her husband)!

> > Jeta bolte cheyechhhi, ta holo, jodi clash hoi, tobe bouder bhumika
> > ekhon onek beshi.
>

> Dekhun, eta situation-er opor nirbhor kore. Bhumika jar-ee beshi
> thaakuk, kotha hochche upai ber kora niye.

Eta ki bollen aapni! Eta to situation, personal taste, what you're

looking for ityadi onek jinisher opor depend korbe. Er ki konoo made
easy toiri kora jaai?

> > Ki mone hoi, aajker potobhumite, jhogDate shashuDi bhalo, na ei rokom
> > diplomat shashuDi?
>

> Aapni bodh hoi mone koren je er cheye jhogDa korle bodh hoi bhalo hoto,
> kintu aami ta mone kori na. E khetre shashuri ekti pNyaach koshlen,
> kintu bou tar palta jobaab dite paren ni.

Ippp, chalak shashuDi aajkal khub kom noi (probably they're still web
illeterate; otherwise, I'm in trouble). Bou boka hole aatke to jabei. ei
jonyei taake bolechhilum, 'oi baDita eDie ja' (good samaritan's advice).

There's a rosy side of fighting (sp. if you are not good enough
diplomat)!

> >
> > Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen. Bodhu
> > nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!
>

> Bodhu-nirjatoner aapnar ki definition jani na, tobe aapni je ghotona-r
> kotha bollen aamar mote shetao nirjaton.

Eta niye amar konoo sondheho nei. Tobe er proshonge pore aasbo.

Note: All the 'You'-s above, are in third person.

> Aapnar motamoter opekkhai roilaam.

nice of you-

Shyam

[Kousik Chakrabarti]

> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.

> Srabani

Notto Company er "Bonik Barir Bou" jatra ta bohudin aga
dekhachilam.Darun badonadayok ghotona.Uposthaponay o obhinoya abong
sorbopori ghotonar mormantikotay ai jatrata amar chirokal mona thakba.

Apnar lekhar sashtuku chokha porta say jatrata abar chokhar samna
jibonto hoya uthlo.

-Kousik.

[Dadu]

Srabani Banerjee wrote:
>
> Shyam Chakraborty writes:

....[del..]........

> >Onek beshi somoe-i ta dekha jachchhe. Ekta real life golpo boli.
> >
> >Jokhon amar mastuto boner biye holo, tar shashuDi tader baDi theke
> >meyetike tule niye giechhilen, baDi ghor dekhanor jonye. Ami tokhon-i
> >take bolechhilum oi baDite biye korish na- jhogDa korte parbi na. Kintu
> >se shunlo na. Egaro bochhor pore giye dekhi tar haNDir haal! Tar
> >shashuDi topa kul-ti hoye ghure beDachchhen,
>
> Ekta kotha na bole parlam na - apnar bhasha-ti kintu besh. Apnar ekjon
> atMiya, jNar konobhaabe nijeke ei adday defend korar upay nei - tNar
> shommondhe besh likhe dilen to oi shesher line-ta!

Eta lokkhyo korechhen je Chkkotty besh ektu onodhikarer chorcha kore
phelechhen! Ami sei family ke chini; tNar chhelera sobai rustom ek ekti.
Nehat tini Internet illeterate, jodi jante paren, S.Chokkotty ke
kolkata-e dhukte hobe na. Aar Chokkotty-r ja sunam, bostay pure Gongay
phele dileo keu kichhu bolbe na.

Tobe line ta besh hoechhe eta manben nischoi!

>
> aar se joint family-r
> >manager, bajar sorkar, head cook, bachchha samlano, shoshurer paye tel
> >deoa-, ebong, hNa, school-e poDano (habi jabi ja Rajabazar theke
> >shikhechhilo) ityadi sob kore- praye gNop chhaDa Hitler-er moto chahara
> >kore phelechhe.
>
> Maap korben, kintu apnar bon e'rom ekta abostha mene niechhen kano?

setai to holo kotha! Ami kono-o Mohilar somalochona kore probleme jete
chai na, kintu keno tini mene nichchhen, eta bola besh mushkil! Amar
dharona, kortrityo korar ichchhe aarki.

>
> >Ki mone hoi, aajker potobhumite, jhogDate shashuDi bhalo, na ei rokom
> >diplomat shashuDi?
>

> Apni ekta anecdote shonale ami to doshta shonate pari - tai diye ki proman
> hoy Sir?

Anecdote gulo shunle kichhuta aaNch paoa jeto, relationship gulo kibhabe
modified hochchhe (kiMba adou hochchhe ki na).

...[del..]....

> >Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen.
>

> Na hole bhalo hoto?

Aar hothat ki karon ghotlo je bou ra aager dine poDe roechhe(n)?

>
> Bodhu
> >nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!
>

> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.

Tahole aapnader raag shudhu ShashuDi-der oporei keno?

> Ekhon kar moto ei porjonto.
>
> Srabani

Besh khide peye gechhe;

Have a nice week end, all of you.

Dadu

[Indrani DasGupta]

Srabani Banerjee wrote:

> Amar to monet hoy problem-ta ekhanei - shashuDi-bou-er shomporkota ekta
> duto anecdote-er bhittite-i stereotype kore pheli.

Ekta-duto bolchhish ki re! Tachhada, ei shuto-ta-i to tai
(stereotyping) amaar mon-e hoy. Kharap ki bhalo bolchhina. Mot-er upor
holo, stereotyping byaparta amaader ato ga-showa hoye gyachhe je
apna-apni hoye jaye, ebong hole chokhe pray poDe-ina.

Ami to bohu shami-stree-r
> modhye, baba-chhele-r modhye, shoshur-jamai-er modhye, bhai-bhai-er modhye
> khub kharap shomporko dekhechhi - egulo kintu ektao stereotyped hoyna.
>

Aar shashuri-jamai? Sheta to hoyechhe? Tahole maane ki ei je,
shashuri-ra tNaader chhele ba meyeder dampottyo-jibon-e besh ekti
boDo-rokom-er bhumika nite baddhyo hochchhen? Kano? NaaDi-r taan? 'Baba'
aar 'Ma'-er so-called 'tofaat'-ta ki shesh-mesh eikhane-i besh joDalo
hoye dyakha dichchhe?

> >Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen.
>
> Na hole bhalo hoto?

Kobe onara 'boka' chhilen taar udahoron jodi shyam-babu ektu dite parten
bhalo hoto...

>
> Bodhu
> >nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!
>
> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.

Shudhu Debjani Bonik?

JoD-jaD kore meye-der (ba Sharmila-di-r boktobbye: chheleder-o ...and,
perhaps, she is right) mukh bondho kora niye er aage bodhoy ei ng-te-i
du-akta kotha uthhechhilo.

Nettok-nettika-der kaachhe amaar ekti bineeto onurodh: SCB maane (ontoto
amaar kaachhe) - society and culture of Bengal and Bengali-s. Ja dyakha
jachchhe...ekhane na hochchhe eta, na hochchhe sheta. Ei shuto-tar
moton-i aaro bohu onullikhito shuto aachhe ja niye kholakhuli alochona
kora amaader shobaar pokkhye akaanto-i proyojonio. Thhik ero'm-ti kintu
aar paowa jabena. Maane thhik erokom forum. Aamra-i ba aar koddin-er?
Erpor je jar dhanda-y onno kotha-o chole jaabo. Apnara, jNara dyakhen
kintu lekhen na (bishesh kore mohila-ra...ebong shey je kaaron-ei hok na
kano), tNaader kaachhe amaar onurodh: jodi mon-e ektu-o ichchhe hoy
likhbar, likhe phelun. Chotpot. Deri korben na. Beshi bhabben na.

Tobe na ichchhe korle, ba na paarle onnyo kotha. Amaake ei uporokto
para-ti niye jhaaDte hole araam-se jhaaDun. Email-e ba ekhane-i. Kintu
jhaaDun! Ota-i amaar boktobbyo.

> Srabani

Indrani.

[Dadu]

Sharmila likhechhen:

> > > Shyambabu (na dadu-babu?) likhechen:
> >
> > ekii bapyar! Eki lok.
>

> Tobe dui naam kyano?

Identity diversified!

.....

.......... Modhyobitto Bangaleer jiibone ta

> > somuuho durbishoho. Jibone aar baki roilo ta ki?
>

> :-).....jibon to tokhon shuru hobe, ki bolen?

I agree. Above para was a joke (without a smiley)...

>
> > aamar dharona, ekhon je (shashuDi-bou) tension, taar opor dupokkher-i
> > dwaitwo aachhe.
>

> She to aachei, ebong tai to bojhar chesta korchi je what makes them
> tick after all....

probably the thread started with the asusmption that, the relationship
doesn't tick at all! I just wanted to say, it IS not always true. There
are clashes, conflict of interest, etc. But it is quite the same as any
other relationships.

I'll come to it later...

......

> Na, maane aami bolte chaichilaam je er shaathe(maane ghor-jamai)
> aamader shuto-r shomporko koi?

Ghor-jamai amar mone hoechhilo- functionally bou-er counterpart, where
the jamai moves to shoshur baDi. I was trying to understand why it is
not so popular (it is also an accepted relationship!). Sekhane jamai-
shoshur baDi (sp. shashuDi) tension ek-i bhabe play korbe ki? Ghor-jamai
howar onek subidha aachhe, tobe ta khub popular noi keno? Tai, aami
extrapolate korte chaichhilum, shashuDi-der role ghor -jamai proshonge.

>
> O ma, rege jaabo kon du:khe?

thanks.

> [..] Bapyar ta holo,

> > shada banglai, "possessiveness" theke. Ebong, eta ekta facet; onyanyo
> > karon (economic, social etc.) thakle tarao play korbe boiki!
>

> Sheta to shorbotroi, shob khetre...ebong sheta otoot-ee thaakbe aamar
> bishwash, kintu tai bole shomoshyar shomadhan hobe na?

Nischoi; ebong, dujon completely somporko heen b}aktitwo psychologically
(if not also physically) ek-i jaigai thakle, clash of interest hobei.
Amar khub-i bhalo legechhe, aapnar seta bojhar chesta. Kintu, heading ta
te aamar kichhu apotti chhilo; Khub sombhob, aamra egiye giyechhi,
"ShashuDi-bou-er modhye aashol bapyar ta" te. Hoito aaro-o precisely,
bibahito jiboner aasol bapyar ta te--

Ami ki khub jeneralise kore phelechhi?

........

> > Aamader jibone kishe immaturity-r gondho nie bolun to? "Nasa" theke
> > "Horir naam", konta completely free from immaturity ?
>

> Manlaam, tobe ebaar ki korben? Chirokaal immature hoyei thaakben?

> > Orthat, eta swikar korchhen, notun bou-o swami-r opor kortrytwo korte

> > shuru korte paaren, ja tension-e culminate korte paare?
>

> Aare ki mushkil, kortritto raakhte ke baron koreche? Kintu tar aykta
> sheema-porisheema bole kichu nei? Kortritter dohai diye jodi
> durbyabohaar hoi, sheta to thik noi, she sthan-kaal-paatro je ba jai
> hok.

You are right; anything beyond a certain limit in problematic.
Kharaap/bhalo jaa-i hok, sob kichhur ekta limit thaka chai.

> >
> > Tahole, eta shudhu "shashuDi-der aashol bapyar" -i noi, bola jete paare,
> > "mohila-der (at earlier age Bou, later, ShashuDi) aashol byaparta ki?"
>

> Dekhun, oi title-ti debaar pechone ekti-ee karon, shashuri-der
> monobhaab jana-r/bojha-r cheshta, bou-der monobhaab aami kichuta aandaaj
> korte pari..oi different generation-er byapar aar ki.

Tahole shashuDi-der monobhab-o kichhuta to andaj kora uchit! Aapnarai to
shashuDi hoben, ebong shashuDira to kono-o aakash theke poDen ni! Ba,
ekdom alien breed non; jNara shashuDi, tNarai abaar ma-o, ki meyeder, ki
chheleder. TNader monobhab ki ek ek somporker khetre ek ek rokom?

Orthat, ami bolte chaichhi, jini khub bhalo ma, tini khub kharap
shashuDi ei rokom ki mene neoa jaai? Ki bolem aapni?

AAr eikhane mone poDlo, keu ullekh korechhen "nonodini raibaghini" (tai
aamar ektu sekele mone hoechhe) tNarai ki "Martian breed"? TNarao to
shadharon mohila-i na ki?

> > Ete aami ektu aaschojyanwito hochchhi. Khub sombhob, aapni (ba, aapnara)
> > ekta 'apriori bias' niye rekhechhen. Seta katiye uthte paarle, khub
> > sombhob, ei somporko gulo onek sohoj hoe jaai.
>

> Aykebaarei ta noi, borong aami to bolbo je aapni hoito kichu stray
> incidents dekhe ektu beshi-ee nishchinto hoye poDechen.

Aami joint family-te manush hoechhi (aamar Grand father -der family
planning er konoi concept chhilo na); India-r paNch ts shohor-e baash
korechhi; ebong ontoto: 13-ta desh dekhechhi. Jodi shudhu aami stray
(and positive) incidence-i dekhe thaki, tobe prithibi -ta shonai moDa!

> > Ami bujhte parini tini shashuDi na bou er pokkho niye ta bolechhen.
>

> Karur pokkho niye je bolte-i hobe aymon to kono kotha nei. Niropekkho
> bhaabe aalochona koratai buddhimaaner kaaj, fol paowar aasha onek beshi.

Eta kintu ta hochchhe na. Ekhane kono-o shashuDi khub sombhoboto:
uposthit nei- jNara nijeder kotha bolte paaren. JNara aachhen, tNara
sobai (expectedly) either, recently married, or on the verge of getting
married!

SutoraaNG, alochona ta ki niropekkho?

> >
> > To add: Ekhonkar potobhumi te er ekta importance(!) o aachhe. For
> > example, joint family ekhono porjonto completely extinct noi. Taar
> > dwaitwo shobhaboto:i je part economically strong tar opore beshi. Jodi
> > keu taar dwaityo na nite chaan, tobe, ei dhoroner tension cellular
> > family-te shift korte sahajya korbe boiki.
>

> Dekhun, cellular family-te theke-o kintu onek bou-shahsuri aei
> shomoshyar bhuktobhugi, aar sheitai aaro chinta-r karon.

Sure; kintu, sekhane samna-samni houata nei; aar khanikta dewal tule
somosyar somadhan hoi.

>
> > > > Bollami to je, eta amar aajker potobhumite ektoropha mone hoechhe.
> > > > Ekhon, shashuDi-bou er modhye somporko-te dudiker-i bhumika achhe.
>

> Sheta to keu oshhsikaar koreni Shyam-babu!
>

> > That's a very sensible approach, I appriciate this.
>

> Dhonyobaad, sensible approach aamar prothom thekei chilo, aapni-ee bodh
> hoi kheyal koren ni.

Sorry to misjudge you; kintu, aamar mone hoechhilo je, aapnara
"bou-shashuDi-nonodini" egulo seggregate kore phelchhen, jekhane du char
jon nonodini nischoi aachhen, ebong jodio khub sombhob kono shashuDi
nei, kintu hobu shashuDi onekei aachhen;

Bastobik bhabe, jNara ekhon hobu bou, tNata bhobishyote hobu shashuDi-o
to boten? Ebong, protyeker-i Maa onyo karur shashuDi-o boten; protyek
"nonodini-Raybhagini" (amar mone nei, ei shobdo ta aapni B}abobhar
korechhilen na onyo keu) onyo karur bou-o boten. Somproko gulo eto
specially ekjon mohilar stand point theke, ki khub-i close noi?

Ulte, aamar mone hoechhilo, ekjon purush-er drishti vongi theke eta onek
beshi important to understand what is the root cause of (primarily
psychological) clash (if any) between maa-bou, ja songsharer shanti
noshto kore?
Amar ekhonoo mone hoi, ekjon mohila tNaar drishti vongi theke etar
shombhondhe ekto beshi alok paat korte paarben; karon, ei khane je tinte
role niye beshi durbhabna, otrthat, shashuDi-bou-"nonodini", sei tintei
mohilader role.

Eta ki ultimately culminate kore, mohila rai mohala der dekh te paren
na?

Motamot janale khushi hobo.

>
> > Dekhun, notun bou ebong shashuDi-r initial conditions thik ek noi. The
> > former is (expectedly) a bit more exposed, and literate, and young, and
> > expected to provide more flexibility. Jodi keu taar advantage nite
> > paaren, tobe bhishon bhabe ta hote paare. Jodi aapni ekdom-i incorigible
> > shoshur baDi te jaan (bodh hoi ekta primary understanding of the family
> > aapnake sahajyo korbe) tobe different.
>

> Opor-e ja ja bolechen shob mene nilaam.

Thanks.

... del....

> > .........Tahole aei baar bolun je
> > > shashuri jate mentally insecure feel na koren, sheta dyakhar bhaar kar?
> >
> > Seta dekhar bhar onektai bou-er (along with her husband)!
>

> Bah, besh!!! Jini notun eshechen aykta ojana poribeshe, jNar
> shashuri-ke chinte dher deri, dayitto-ta prodhanoto tNar hoye gyalo? Eta
> ki rokom kotha holo? Aamar mote dayitto-ta sholo aana-i cheler, bou-er
> olpo shohojogita-i.

Aami aagei bolechhi, amar dharona, ekjon mohila ke aarekjon mohila onek
beshi bujhben (karon ek-i drishti vongi theke dekhar sujog paoa).
Sekhane dwaitwo (ontoto: manoshik bhabe) ta ki bou-er ektu beshi noi?

>
> .. Eta to situation, personal taste, what you're

> > looking for ityadi onek jinisher opor depend korbe. Er ki konoo made
> > easy toiri kora jaai?
>

> na, ta jai na, kintu motamuti bhaabe kichuta generalise kore
> solution-er dike agono jete pare...after all, ki ki karon-e mon kosha
> koshi hote pare, sheguli to karur-ee ojana noi.

Ami setar aashai korchhi!

>
> [..]

> > There's a rosy side of fighting (sp. if you are not good enough
> > diplomat)!

It was put jokingly!

Shyam.

[S Bhattacharyya]

bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:

>In article <320D18...@Finland.fi>, Dadu <da...@Finland.fi> wrote:
>>Sharmila likhechhen:

>>
>>> Aare ki mushkil, kortritto raakhte ke baron koreche? Kintu tar aykta
>>> sheema-porisheema bole kichu nei? Kortritter dohai diye jodi
>>> durbyabohaar hoi, sheta to thik noi, she sthan-kaal-paatro je ba jai
>>> hok.
>>
>>You are right; anything beyond a certain limit in problematic.
>>Kharaap/bhalo jaa-i hok, sob kichhur ekta limit thaka chai.

>I completely disagree with both Dadu and with Sharmila.

>It is not merely that "anything beyond a certain point" is problematic.
>There are many things in the world whose very existence is problematic,
>no matter whether they cross any "limit" or not. For example, racism,
>sexism and oppression are problematic no matter in what minute doses
>they appear. They have to be fought hard and fought at all levels.

>One such problematic thing is autocratic exercise of power and domination.
>(Which I guess is what Sharmila meant by "kortritwo"), This is problematic,
>period! It is NOT acceptable even when carried out within limits. Recall
>that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

>My solution to the problem: the wife, the husband, the in-laws (on either
>spouse's side) and whoever else wishes to be part of the extended family,
>must form a co-operative. The co-operative should be based on democratic
>decision-making by majority vote. The husband, the wife, the in-law(s)

Majority vote is the oppression of the minority by the majority.
If this is the best one can come up with even under idealised
situations, I see absolutely no reason to change the status quo!

>and whoever wlse is forming the extended family, should operate by the
>one-person, one-vote principle whenever decsions have to be taken. A

Sayan, humans don't make decision based on logic alone, they
do it based on often totally illogical and even counter productive
reasons.

>domination-based arrangement, one based on absolute kortritwo, is simply
>not needed!

Yeah, but as a theoretical best fit solution, it is no better
or worse than your precious one person one vote coop!!! If I am on the
minority side of the fence, and more often than not I find myself
there, it doesn't matter to me whether one person makes the decision,
or a bunch of self righteous morons do, I still lose....

Santanu

[rajib doogar]

shudhibrinder kacche marjona chaiya Tuk kore ekTa chhede di --
shutroTa amar darun legecche ebong alochonaTa moTamuTi onushoron
korecchi, kintu ekTu byasto thakar dorun shobkoTa lekhoni chokhe na
poDleo na poDe thakTe pare, tai buhl-truTi-r jonyo ebong puraton
tothyer punorabrittir jonyo age theke marjona cheye nilam.

Shutro-pather bhittite ontoto eiTuku ki bola jete paare je ei bishoyer
modhye nimnanuborttito upadan kicchu matray protyekei jodiye acchen?

1. amader nijeder drishTi-bhongi ba porprekkhito -- ekhane poDe jay
arohoni torko-guli jamon "eTa ki bostusthitir prokrito ebong nyajjo
bornona? nak ki eTa muloto amader bandhadhora drishtibhongir mrigoya
matro? ei torker "uttor" bole kicchu jodi thake, tahole sheta oti
obshyoi protyeker nijer jibon-obhigyNotar opor norbhor korbe. eTa
niye bistrito alochona ami ontoto korte chai na karon ekhane shekhar
kicchui nei, muloto byparTa giye dNaDbe je ami apnake amar motamot
janabo, apni amake apnar, kintu dui pokkher uktite khub notun kichu
udoy pabe shondehojonok.

2. nirashokto bornona jaar madhyome dekha ba dekhano jay je "notun
bouer shamajik obostha ki ebong taar utshyo kothay" -- ekhane nritotwo
ebong shomajbigyan (dwitiyoTir modhye stri-badi, marx-badi, bostu-badi
ba adorshobadi poriprekkhi shob'i guNje dilam, jodi onumoti den.
ebong torko komanor khatir-e anurodh korcchi je nirashokto bornonar
ostwitto niye jodi torko kotre hoy tahole onyo shutre kora jete paare,
ekhane nirashokto bolte matro bojhate chaicchi je bornonkari'r pronali
o poddhoti ebong totwiyo uddeshyo o motobadik ashokti jekhane
lukkayito noy. aaro bole rakhi je ami o-twottiyo bornona bole je
kicchu thakte paare, bishwash kori na.)

3. shiddhantik alochona (theoretical discussion) je ki hoa uchit.

Dwitiyo ebong tritiyo niye khub bistrito alochona holeo hote paare.
Tai koyekTa proshno korbo.

1. bornona: amader shomaje (ekhane dui level'e proshno kora jay
--bharotiyo ba bangali, becche nilei holo), shashuDi-bou birodher
undahoron bohu royechhe kintu kono shadharon jog royecche ki --
orthonoitik, dharmik, shamajik (jati ba stor'er shohito jukto),
shikkha ityadir, na ki byaparTa ekebare elopataDi -- je kono
poribeshei ei dwondo ghoTte paare? ekhane ami kintu kahini-mulok
shakhyo chaicchi na, nirbhorjogyo porishokhyan-bhittik tottho agroho
korte chai.

2. bornonar modhye aaro jante icche shashuDi-bou bad diye
shoshurbaDir onyo loker shathe notun bouer shomporkko bishoye ki ki
jana acche? egulo ki keu onushondhan koren? jNara janen, ekTu gyan
bitoron korle badhito hobo. kicchudin aage Monisha Roy'er ekTa boi
podecchilam jaate bangali meyeder jibon niye likecchilen, ingrijite,
thik mone nei, karor jana thakle likhben.

3. bornonar twottiyo bishleshon ebong shiddhantik alonchona
(shesherTa holo jNara bastob shombondhe khub ekTa kicchu janen na
tNader shesh shombol. tai aar dwidha kano? nemei poDi.)

ebar bornornar twottiyo bishleshon ekta poribeshon korcchi, dekhun ki
mone hoy. jodi bishleshon kore moTamuTi kono dhonroner shommoti joTe
tahole na hoy shiddhantik alochonaTa dhora jabe. mane jodi karon
shombondhe kono shommoti na thake tahole shiddhantik alochona
pholoprodoshu hobe ki? (amar mote uttor holo: na.)

bohujug purbe, biyeTa hoto olpo boyoshe. bou shoshurbaDitei "manush"
hoto shutorang tokhon ki etoTa birodh ghoTto? (lingo-poriborton
projukti-bidye je puraton-kale bangladesher ghore-ghore procholito
cchilo, eTa jene shomokalin bigyaner-itihashbekta nischoy bohu
gobeshonay bongo-jatra koriya bangali orthonitir ektu utthan korben
bole amar driDho bishwas, aar jotota bishwasher dridhotar komoti,
sheTa na hoy asha diye bhore nilam).

eTa to shorbogNyato je protyekTi poribarke ekTi aangik oikyo hishabe
dekha jete paare. bohu-bocchorer obhigNyotar bhittitei protyekti
shodoshyo eke oporer choritro ebong mejaj bhalo kore janen tai cheshTa
korle tNara hoyto shantipurno ba shombhoboto anondomoy shohobash
korleo korte paren (orthat cheshTa proyojoniyo kintu cheshTa matro-i
jotheshTo noy). ebar, ei goshthir modhye jodi kono agontuk eshe
poDen, tahole shongsharer protyeker'i poroshporer proti
byabohar-gotibigyan palTe jay eTa-o shorbgNyato. konodin baDite
atmiyo-shwajon eshe koyekdin thaklei bujhben aami ki ingit korte
chaicchi (ba jodi aro bhalo kore dekhte chan to atmiyo-durjon ke
amontron korte paren).

ta jodi shei agontuk ekTu norom goccher hon tahole poribar
shodoshomondolir poroshpor byabohar-gotibigyan khub ekta bicholito hoy
na. ebong jodi agontuk nabalok hon, tahole bicholon, ontoto-pokkhe
goDpoDta man'e, loghishthyo hoy. tarpor shei nobagota bodhu kromagotoi
shoshurbaDir riti-o-reoaj grohon koren ebong pittri-pokkher achar
byabohar, kalanukrome torjito hoy. tai, jotodine bou "manush" hon, tot
dine tNar byekttitwoTake ghoshe menje shoshur-badir lokjoner shathe
khap khaoanor prokriyaTi-o poripurono hoye giye thake.

jyamon jyamon biyer boyesh baDe, temni nobagotar manoshik briddhi
ebong byektitwo porishphuTon'o shwabhabik bhabei ogrosthito, ebong tar
mane tNar probeshe shoshurbaDi poribarer byabohar-gotibigyan
bicholon'o baDbei. tokhon je meye ma ke jaliye khacchilo, shei meyei
palTe notun bou'er shrobon poridhir porishimanar modhye phish phish
kore poribarer kono ek shodoshyoke bolbe "Ma ke koto shojhyo korte
hoy." (ei udahoron dilam karon ei shutre omon ukti ke jano udahoron
shworupe poribeshon korecchilen, bhalo legecchilo tai churi korlam)
ebong jehetu bicholoner prostuto karon nobagota bou, shob dosh-i tNar
ghaDe giye poDbe ebong, tini jodi protibad koren tokhon tNake domiye
deoar porcheshTa kora hobe -- er bibhinno karon royecche, jar modhye
promukho holo je notun bou ashol karon na hole-o prostut karon to
boTei. ebar dekhun bohu karone notun bouke chup kore shojhyo kore
jete hote paare:

1. tNar pittri-pokkher kacche tini khub ekTa shomorthon na-o pete
paren. pittri-pokkho hote protyokto hobar karon shomonyer modhe
orthonoitik ebong shamajik durodorshitar ba kousholer ongsho lukiye
thakte paare. jokhon pittri-pokkhor kacche notun bou shonen "Maniye
ne, ekbar maniye nile dekhbi tor jibonTa ki shukhi hoye jabe. ghor
korte hole, ekTu maniye cholte to hobei. amra ki maniye cholini?"

durodorshita Dhoke ei orthe: bangali shomaje, bisheshoto bangali hindu
shomaje, daybhag prokriya onujayi poitrik shompotti bhag kora hoy, tai
meyeke maniye nebar poramorsho deoar uddeshyo holo take bojhano je tor
byabohare tor borer paribarik podomorjyada briddhi hobe ebong tate
toder arthik oboshtar unnotir (goDhmane) shombhabona baDbe. ami nijer
kane shunecchi bolte pari na, tobe boktar mukhe shunecchi je tNara
tNader pittripokkho theke ei poramorsho peyecchen. eTake ekTa
orthonoitik koushol bore gonyo kora jete pare.

shamajik karon hote paare je "loke ki bolbe." eTar bharTa giye poDe
boDo meyeder upor. shongsharanukrome prothom biye boDo meyer'i hobe.
tNar byabohar dekhe shomajer aro paNchjon bou'er pittripokkho
shombondhe tNader dharona porishongshodhon kore neben. notun bou jodi
maniye chole tahole onyera shei baaper-baDir bou ante probrittyo
hoben. tai boDo meyer (ebong kicchu matray ccheleder) ghaDe bonghser
morjyada rokkhoner bharTa naame. eTake shamajik koushal bolte paren.
eTar shakyo nije dite raji -- nijer jibone o poribare eTa ghoTte
dekhecchi. sheshangshe, pittripokkher jodi arthik obostha ektu
noDoboDo hoy taholeo shombhabona thakte paare je meye shohanubhuti'r
beshi khub ekTa kicchu asha korte parben na.

2. notun bou prothom prothom bor'er kacche khub ekTa shomorthon paan
na. jodi prem-bibaho hoy tahole eTa goDhmane kom hoy. hoy beshi
jokhon biyeTa "meye dekhe" sthir kora hoy. notun bouke bor chene na,
kintu bor to poribarer onyoder chene. biye hoye gyacche bolei je
nimeshe bor bouke apon kore nebe eta shiddhantik ebong kousholio
karone banchoniyo holeo, bastobik noy. karonTa amar mone hoy
monoboigyanik (orthat osposhto -- onek gobeshonar proyojon royecche).
shei bou kicchu din ghor korar por, borke hat kore nyan -- etar karon
danDay giye tNader paroshporik aakorshon, ghonishthota ebong (asha
kora jete pare) kromoborddhoman bondhutto. kintu ei "borke manano"
manei shei to poroshpor byabohar-prokriyar gotibigyan ke bicholito
kora.

3. notun bou ashate poribarer onyanyo shodoshyoder nijoshwo byabohar
palTano'r prokriyar phole, ekTa otit-akulotar monobhab jonmo pay jate
atiter bastobikotaTake ekta krittrim otitakul atit diye protisthapon
kora hoy. tokhon mone hoy je notun bou ashar age jibon ki shumodhur
cchilo ebong ekhon ki narokiyo hoy gyecche. bortomaner kothin
bastobikotar mukhe ei smriti-durobikhhon kintu ekti oti shadharon
manoshik protikriya (na ki prokriya?) eTa ekhon shorbogNyato. ebong
tokhon shobai jodi ekjoT hoye notun bouer dike aangul dekhay tahole
notun bouer mone proshno jagtei paare je "shottyi ki, amar ashate
eNader koshTo baDlo?" She to aar shoshurbadi poribarer bastobik
itihash jane na, tai tokhon she protishakhyo dite paare na. Kintu
kicchudin ghor korar por jokhon paribarik itihasher bastobikotar
shathe she porichito hoy tokhon aar take ei bahbe shashano kothin hoy
othe. tai notun bou maniye chole kintu purono bou protishakhho diye
shomalochanar mukh bondho korte paare. eTake obhigNyota ba
protishthan bishishTo gyaner phol bolte paaren. kintu protishthan
bishishTo gyan orjon korte shomoy lage (ei sheshaTa paribhashik
shotto).

4. ei shadharon shamajik ebong manoshik proikriyar opor jodi adhunik
juger "pashchatyikoron" ebong orthonoitik karone poribar byabosthar
punorboinyash prokriyaTi chapiye deoa hoy tahole dekha jay je puraton
paribarik bondho-bhongo howar phole shashuDir bhobishyot nirapotta
onek beshi nirbhor kore cchele(der) opor (shoshur moshai je shob
kicchur ekcchottro ekadhipoti, tai tNar jibito-obosthay, shobaike tNar
haNk shuntei hobe, ebong tNar pore shobito jabe cheleder hate).
tokohon shashuDi jodi dekhen je notun bou khub shubidher noy, tahole
tini shoshur benche thaktei porishkar kore dite chaite paren je bou
shubidher noy. tahole jokhon shei oshubho muhorto eshe pounchobe
tokhon tini bou-birodher ekti itihash ingit kore ccheler kacche nijer
"ongsher" dabi kotre paren. Shei jodi tini bouke bhalo bhalo bole
thaken sharakkhon, tokhon bish bocchor pore ccheleke giye hothat to
bolte paren na je dekh bou amake bitaDona korcche.

pashchatyikoron kintu shudhu jNara missionary school'a jaan
tNader-matro-r-i hocche na. shobbar hocche -- ki kore? Hindi (ba
Bangla) cchayacchobi theke, doorodorshon theke, khoborer kagoj theke,
potrika theke, shamajik poribortton theke, shob kicchu thekei shobbai
dekhe shikcche ebong palTacche -- keu notunTake grohon kore, keu
notun-Take protykhyan kore puronoTar modhye notun gun abishkar kore,
aar keu notuner bhoye gNoDamite neme giye. Kintu, bishwer onyano
desher moton-i ei notun bolte ja bojhay taar ekta biraT bodo bhag
kintu ashcche shojashuji ba ghure phire, shei "shadharon" pashchatyo
jibondhara theke.

shonge aar ekTi karon juDe deo jete paare: shikkha. Joto shikkha
badbe, toto meyera bistrito jogoter gyan prapto korben ebong proshno
tulben/korben. eTa ekTa bichilon: shashuDi shorbojanta non, ashe
pashe ki hocche ebong ma-shashuDir kacche ki shikhecchen taar gonDi
periye jete kom shashuDi'i parben eTa amar onuman. tokhon bou jodi
shikkhito hon tahole shashuDir uttorTa tNar opocchondo hole hote paare
karon ekhettre bou konishttho hole, gyane jyeshto. shekhaneo
paromporik uttor boueder kacche opriyo hote paare ebong bouer
protikriyate shashuDir mone hote pare je tNake shekel bole opodostho
kora hocche.

Onek lekha holo. Ebare keu ki janen je dhorun 200 bocchor purbe ki
emon bhabe bou birodh ghoTto? Na ki eTa balyo-bibaho protha'r
odhogoti'r shomoshamoyik? Jodi dekha jay je dwityo proshnoTir
hNyashuchok, tahole ki bou birodhTa-ke-o colonialism-er bishakto
obodan bole gonyo kora jete paare. maane jodi shei lalmukho
bandorgulo na aashto ... :) (doya kore muchkihNashiingitTi dekhe
neben). jekhane daybhag protha procholon nei -- orthat jekhane
mitakkhor prothay shompotti bibhajoron hoy shekhane ki bou-shashuDi
birodh etoi tibro ki (na ki tibro-toro ba kom)?

janaben.

rajib

[sayan bhattacharyya]

In article <320D18...@Finland.fi>, Dadu <da...@Finland.fi> wrote:
>Sharmila likhechhen:
>

>> Aare ki mushkil, kortritto raakhte ke baron koreche? Kintu tar aykta
>> sheema-porisheema bole kichu nei? Kortritter dohai diye jodi
>> durbyabohaar hoi, sheta to thik noi, she sthan-kaal-paatro je ba jai
>> hok.
>
>You are right; anything beyond a certain limit in problematic.
>Kharaap/bhalo jaa-i hok, sob kichhur ekta limit thaka chai.

I completely disagree with both Dadu and with Sharmila.

It is not merely that "anything beyond a certain point" is problematic.
There are many things in the world whose very existence is problematic,
no matter whether they cross any "limit" or not. For example, racism,
sexism and oppression are problematic no matter in what minute doses
they appear. They have to be fought hard and fought at all levels.

One such problematic thing is autocratic exercise of power and domination.
(Which I guess is what Sharmila meant by "kortritwo"), This is problematic,
period! It is NOT acceptable even when carried out within limits. Recall
that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

My solution to the problem: the wife, the husband, the in-laws (on either
spouse's side) and whoever else wishes to be part of the extended family,
must form a co-operative. The co-operative should be based on democratic
decision-making by majority vote. The husband, the wife, the in-law(s)

and whoever wlse is forming the extended family, should operate by the
one-person, one-vote principle whenever decsions have to be taken. A

[rajib doogar]

shutroTa amar darun legecche ebong alochonaTa moTamuTi onushoron
korecchi, kintu ekTu byasto thakar dorun shobkoTa lekhoni chokhe na
poDleo na poDe thakTe pare, tai buhl-truTi-r jonyo ebong puraton
tothyer punorabrittir jonyo age theke marjona cheye nilam.

Shutro-pather bhittite ontoto eiTuku ki bola jete paare je ei bishoyer
modhye nimnanuborttito upadan kicchu matray protyekei jodiye acchen?

1. amader nijeder drishTi-bhongi ba porprekkhito -- ekhane poDe jay
arohoni torko-guli jamon "eTa ki bostusthitir prokrito ebong nyajjo
bornona? nak ki eTa muloto amader bandhadhora drishtibhongir mrigoya
matro?" ei torker "uttor" bole kicchu jodi thake, tahole sheta oti

obshyoi protyeker nijer jibon-obhigyNotar opor nirbhor korbe. eTa

niye bistrito alochona ami ontoto korte chai na karon ekhane shekhar
kicchui nei, muloto byparTa giye dNaDbe je ami apnake amar motamot
janabo, apni amake apnar, kintu dui pokkher uktite khub notun kichu

udoy hobe bole shondehojonok.

2. nirashokto bornona jaar madhyome dekha ba dekhano jay je "notun
bouer shamajik obostha ki ebong taar utshyo kothay" -- ekhane nritotwo
ebong shomajbigyan (dwitiyoTir modhye stri-badi, marx-badi, bostu-badi
ba adorshobadi poriprekkhi shob'i guNje dilam, jodi onumoti den.
ebong torko komanor khatir-e anurodh korcchi je nirashokto bornonar
ostwitto niye jodi torko kotre hoy tahole onyo shutre kora jete paare,
ekhane nirashokto bolte matro bojhate chaicchi je bornonkari'r pronali
o poddhoti ebong totwiyo uddeshyo o motobadik ashokti jekhane
lukkayito noy. aaro bole rakhi je ami o-twottiyo bornona bole je
kicchu thakte paare, bishwash kori na.)

3. shiddhantik alochona je "ki hoa uchit."

Dwitiyo ebong tritiyo niye khub bistrito alochona holeo hote paare.

Ebong hocche. Khub bhalo laglo poDe. Tai koyekTa proshno korbo jate
alochonar bhitti-Ta jodi palTano jay.

1. bornona: amader shomaje (ekhane dui stor'e proshno kora jay

--bharotiyo ba bangali, becche nilei holo), shashuDi-bou birodher

undahoron bohu royechhe kintu kono shadharon jogajog royecche ki --
orthonoitik, dharmik, shamajik (jati ba stor), shikkha ityadir, na ki
byaparTa ekebar elopataDi mane je kono poribeshei ei tikhtota dekha
jai? ekhane brittanto-mulok shakkho poDecche prochur du dikei, kintu
ekTio porishonkhyonbidya-bhittik shakker alochona dekhlam na. kothay
paoa jete paare keu janen ki? deshe ki shomajbigyan-anushondhaner
porjyaye ei proshnogulo gobeshona kora hoyecche?

2. bornonar modhye aaro jante icche shashuDi-bou bad diye
shoshurbaDir onyo loker shathe notun bouer shomporkko bishoye ki ki

jana acche? egulo ki keu neDecheDe dekhecchen? jNara janen, ekTu
gyan bitoron korle badhito hobo. kicchudin aage Manisha Roy'er ekTa

boi podecchilam jaate bangali meyeder jibon niye likecchilen,
ingrijite, thik mone nei, karor jana thakle likhben.

ebar bornornar twottiyo bishleshon ekta poribeshon korcchi, dekhun ki

mone hoy. jodi bishleshon kore moTamuTi kono dhonroner shommoti joTe

tahole na hoy shiddhantik alochonaTa dhora jabe je ki hoa uchit ebong
ki kore sheTa prapto kora jete pare. mane jodi karon shombondhe kono

shommoti na thake tahole shiddhantik alochona pholoprodoshu hobe ki?
(amar mote uttor holo: na.)

bohujug purbe, biyeTa hoto olpo boyoshe. bou shoshurbaDitei "manush"
hoto shutorang tokhon ki etoTa birodh ghoTto? (lingo-poriborton
projukti-bidye je puraton-kale bangladesher ghore-ghore procholito
cchilo, eTa jene shomokalin bigyaner-itihashbekta nischoy bohu
gobeshonay bongo-jatra koriya bangali orthonitir ektu utthan korben

bole amar driDho bishwas aar bishwas jokhon ekTu noDboDe tokhon
asha-ta onoboddho hoye jay, mane duti jogphol drubak.).

eTa to shorbogNyato je protyekTi poribarke ekTi aangik oikyo hishabe
dekha jete paare. bohu-bocchorer obhigNyotar bhittitei protyekti
shodoshyo eke oporer choritro ebong mejaj bhalo kore janen tai cheshTa
korle tNara hoyto shantipurno ba shombhoboto anondomoy shohobash
korleo korte paren (orthat cheshTa proyojoniyo kintu cheshTa matro-i
jotheshTo noy). ebar, ei goshthir modhye jodi kono agontuk eshe
poDen, tahole shongsharer protyeker'i poroshporer proti
byabohar-gotibigyan palTe jay eTa-o shorbgNyato. konodin baDite
atmiyo-shwajon eshe koyekdin thaklei bujhben aami ki ingit korte
chaicchi (ba jodi aro bhalo kore dekhte chan to atmiyo-durjon ke
amontron korte paren).

ta jodi shei agontuk ekTu norom goccher hon tahole poribar
shodoshomondolir poroshpor byabohar-gotibigyan khub ekta bicholito hoy
na. ebong jodi agontuk nabalok hon, tahole bicholon, ontoto-pokkhe
goDpoDta man'e, loghishthyo hoy. tarpor shei nobagota bodhu kromagotoi
shoshurbaDir riti-o-reoaj grohon koren ebong pittri-pokkher achar

byabohar, kalanukrome torjito hoy. tai, jotodine bou "maush" hon, tot

dine tNar byekttitwoTake ghoshe menje shoshur-badir lokjoner shathe
khap khaoanor prokriyaTi-o poripurono hoye giye thake.

jyamon jyamon biyer boyesh baDe, temni nobagotar manoshik briddhi
ebong byektitwo porishphuTon'o shwabhabik bhabei ogrosthito, ebong tar
mane tNar probeshe shoshurbaDi poribarer byabohar-gotibigyan
bicholon'o baDbei. tokhon je meye ma ke jaliye khacchilo, shei meyei
palTe notun bou'er shrobon poridhir porishimanar modhye phish phish
kore poribarer kono ek shodoshyoke bolbe "Ma ke koto shojhyo korte
hoy." (ei udahoron dilam karon ei shutre omon ukti ke jano udahoron
shworupe poribeshon korecchilen, bhalo legecchilo tai churi korlam)
ebong jehetu bicholoner prostuto karon nobagota bou, shob dosh-i tNar
ghaDe giye poDbe ebong, tini jodi protibad koren tokhon tNake domiye
deoar porcheshTa kora hobe -- er bibhinno karon royecche, jar modhye
promukho holo je notun bou ashol karon na hole-o prostut karon to
boTei. ebar dekhun bohu karone notun bouke chup kore shojhyo kore
jete hote paare:

1. tNar pittri-pokkher kacche tini khub ekTa shomorthon na-o pete

paren. pittri-pokkho hote portyokto hobar karon shomonyer modhe

orthonoitik ebong shamajik durodorshitar ba kousholer ongsho lukiye
thakte paare. jokhon pittri-pokkhor kacche notun bou shonen "Maniye
ne, ekbar maniye nile dekhbi tor jibonTa ki shukhi hoye jabe. ghor
korte hole, ekTu maniye cholte to hobei. amra ki maniye cholini?"

durodorshita Dhoke ei orthe: bangali shomaje, bisheshoto bangali hindu
shomaje, daybhag prokriya onujayi poitrik shompotti bhag kora hoy, tai
meyeke maniye nebar poramorsho deoar uddeshyo holo take bojhano je tor
byabohare tor borer paribarik podomorjyada briddhi hobe ebong tate
toder arthik oboshtar unnotir (goDhmane) shombhabona baDbe. ami nijer
kane shunecchi bolte pari na, tobe boktar mukhe shunecchi je tNara

tNader pittripokkho theke amon poramorsho peyecchen. eTake ekTa

orthonoitik koushol bore gonyo kora jete pare.

shamajik karon hote paare je "loke ki bolbe." eTar bharTa giye poDe
boDo meyeder upor. shongsharanukrome prothom biye boDo meyer'i hobe.
tNar byabohar dekhe shomajer aro paNchjon bou'er pittripokkho

shombondhe tNader dharona porishongshodhon kore neben., notun bou jodi

maniye chole tahole onyera shei baaper-baDir bou ante probrittyo
hoben. tai boDo meyer (ebong kicchu matray ccheleder) ghaDe bonghser
morjyada rokkhoner bharTa naame. eTake shamajik koushal bolte paren.
eTar shakyo nije dite raji -- nijer jibone o poribare eTa ghoTte

dekhecchi. finally, pittripokkher jodi arthik obostha ektu noDoboDo

shotto). ebong onek khettre, shei gyan prapto holeo, orthonoitik
chape mukh bujhe protarona shojhyo korte hote pare bole shondeho nei.

4. ei shadharon shamajik ebong manoshik proikriyar opor jodi adhunik
juger "pashchatyikoron" ebong orthonoitik karone poribar byabosthar
punorboinyash prokriyaTi chapiye deoa hoy tahole dekha jay je puraton
paribarik bondho-bhongo howar phole shashuDir bhobishyot nirapotta
onek beshi nirbhor kore cchele(der) opor (shoshur moshai je shob
kicchur ekcchottro ekadhipoti, tai tNar jibito-obosthay, shobaike tNar
haNk shuntei hobe, ebong tNar pore shobito jabe cheleder hate).
tokohon shashuDi jodi dekhen je notun bou khub shubidher noy, tahole
tini shoshur benche thaktei porishkar kore dite chaite paren je bou
shubidher noy. tahole jokhon shei oshubho muhorto eshe pounchobe
tokhon tini bou-birodher ekti itihash ingit kore ccheler kacche nijer
"ongsher" dabi kotre paren. Shei jodi tini bouke bhalo bhalo bole
thaken sharakkhon, tokhon bish bocchor pore ccheleke giye hothat to
bolte paren na je dekh bou amake bitaDona korcche.

pashchatyikoron kintu shudhu jNara ingraji madhyomik ba doutik
(shadharonoto khrishtan doutik dhora jete paare, jodio ramkrishno
mission'o royecche) shikkhagare jaan tNader-matro-r-i hocche na.
shobbar hocche -- ki kore? Hindi (ba Bangla) cholochittro theke,

doorodorshon theke, khoborer kagoj theke, potrika theke, shamajik
poribortton theke, shob kicchu thekei shobbai dekhe shikcche ebong
palTacche -- keu notunTake grohon kore, keu notun-Take protykhyan kore
puronoTar modhye notun gun abishkar kore, aar keu notuner bhoye
gNoDamite neme giye. Kintu, bishwer onyano desher moton-i ei notun
bolte ja bojhay taar ekta biraT bodo bhag kintu ashcche shojashuji ba

ghure phire shei "shadharon" pashchatyo jibondhara theke.

shonge aar ekTi karon juDe deo jete paare: shikkha. Joto shikkha
badbe, toto meyera bistrito jogoter gyan prapto korben ebong proshno
tulben/korben. eTa ekTa bichilon: shashuDi shorbojanta non, ashe
pashe ki hocche ebong ma-shashuDir kacche ki shikhecchen taar gonDi
periye jete kom shashuDi'i parben eTa amar onuman. tokhon bou jodi
shikkhito hon tahole shashuDir uttorTa tNar opocchondo hole hote paare
karon ekhettre bou konishttho hole, gyane jyeshto. shekhaneo
paromporik uttor boueder kacche opriyo hote paare ebong bouer
protikriyate shashuDir mone hote pare je tNake shekel bole opodostho
kora hocche.

Onek lekha holo. Ebare keu ki janen je dhorun 200 bocchor purbe ki
emon bhabe bou birodh ghoTto? Na ki eTa balyo-bibaho protha'r
odhogoti'r shomoshamoyik? Jodi dekha jay je dwityo proshnoTir
hNyashuchok, tahole ki bou birodhTa-ke-o colonialism-er bishakto
obodan bole gonyo kora jete paare. maane jodi shei lalmukho
bandorgulo na aashto ... :) (doya kore muchkihNashiingitTi dekhe
neben). jekhane daybhag protha procholon nei -- orthat jekhane

mitakhor prothay shompotti bibhajon hoy shekhane ki bou-shashuDi
birodh etoi-tibro (ba tirbo-toro na kom)?

janaben.

rajib

[sayan bhattacharyya]

S Bhattacharyya <san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> Majority vote is the oppression of the minority by the majority.
>If this is the best one can come up with even under idealised
>situations, I see absolutely no reason to change the status quo!

You are assuming here that the _same_ person will always be in a minority
in _each_ vote. Do you have any reason for making this assumption?

Isn't it more likely that in some votes, person A will be in a minority
and in some votes (s)he will be in a majority? On an average every person
will be in a majority more often than (s)he is in a minority (a little
math will convince you while this has to be this way).

Thus most persons will be happy most of the time. (Contrast this with
dictatorship or intra-family tyranny, in which some people are happy all the
time and and some unfortunate ones are unhappy _all_ the time. Thus I
submit that my solution is substantially better than the dictatorship
solution, but of course my solution does not lead to a utopia, because
utopias do not exist. I did not claim my solution to be utopic -- I
simply claimed it to be better.

>
>>and whoever wlse is forming the extended family, should operate by the
>>one-person, one-vote principle whenever decsions have to be taken. A
>

> Sayan, humans don't make decision based on logic alone, they
>do it based on often totally illogical and even counter productive
>reasons.

Quite true, but what has that got to do with what I said above? The
members of the family may well vote on emotional reasons. The important
point here is not _why_ they are voting in a specific way on each issue,
but the principle that everyone gets a chance to exercise their choice
democratically. Whether that choice was arrived at logically or emotionally
doesn't seem particularly relevant here.

> Yeah, but as a theoretical best fit solution, it is no better
>or worse than your precious one person one vote coop!!! If I am on the
>minority side of the fence, and more often than not I find myself
>there, it doesn't matter to me whether one person makes the decision,
>or a bunch of self righteous morons do, I still lose....

In the specific context that we are discussing here, if the situation
is as you describe and you find yourself surrounded by uncaring people
who vote you down every time and pass proposals that hurt your
interests, then that indicates that it is time for you to dissociate
yourself from such people , leave the co-operative and perhaps join
a better co-operative. (In the context that we are talking about here,
this means dissolving the marriage if you are a spouse). Why should
one remain in a dysfunctional marriage?

[Indranil DasGupta]

sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:

: My solution to the problem: the wife, the husband, the in-laws (on either

: spouse's side) and whoever else wishes to be part of the extended family,
: must form a co-operative. The co-operative should be based on democratic
: decision-making by majority vote. The husband, the wife, the in-law(s)

: and whoever wlse is forming the extended family, should operate by the

: one-person, one-vote principle whenever decsions have to be taken. A

: domination-based arrangement, one based on absolute kortritwo, is simply
: not needed!

The most ridiculous of all solutions! Many people in the family may not
be interested in the decision making! Why can't they have the option of
trading their right to vote for something else?

IMHO, the whole thing should be
treated as a free and
fair market. Initially every adult should be given 400
shares. Every minor over 12 years gets 200. Children under 12 and
household pets who have been in the family for more than two years get
100 shares each. Shares can be bought and sold as in a free market and
shareholders get one vote per share.

IDG.

[Indranil DasGupta]

Indranil DasGupta (dgu...@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:

: The most ridiculous of all solutions! Many people in the family may not

: be interested in the decision making! Why can't they have the option of
: trading their right to vote for something else?

: IMHO, the whole thing should be
: treated as a free and
: fair market. Initially every adult should be given 400
: shares. Every minor over 12 years gets 200. Children under 12 and
: household pets who have been in the family for more than two years get
: 100 shares each. Shares can be bought and sold as in a free market and
: shareholders get one vote per share.

Erratum:

Okay, okay, second thought. There should be a ceiling on the number of
shares owned by the pets. Under no circumstances can they hold more than
50 percent of the shares. However if the dog is smart enough to think of
"benami" then there is a slight problem...

Nothing's perfect. So what?

IDG.

[Debajyoti Choudhury]

S Bhattacharyya (san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:

: >I completely disagree with both Dadu and with Sharmila.

: >It is not merely that "anything beyond a certain point" is problematic.
: >There are many things in the world whose very existence is problematic,
: >no matter whether they cross any "limit" or not. For example, racism,
: >sexism and oppression are problematic no matter in what minute doses
: >they appear. They have to be fought hard and fought at all levels.

: >One such problematic thing is autocratic exercise of power and domination.
: >(Which I guess is what Sharmila meant by "kortritwo"), This is problematic,
: >period! It is NOT acceptable even when carried out within limits. Recall
: >that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

: >My solution to the problem: the wife, the husband, the in-laws (on either

: >spouse's side) and whoever else wishes to be part of the extended family,
: >must form a co-operative. The co-operative should be based on democratic
: >decision-making by majority vote. The husband, the wife, the in-law(s)

I note with deep consternation that the children, not to say the infants,
have been left out of this list. As they constitute the abused class most
often, a cooperative where all children are not full and equal members is
inherently flawed. In the society of the future children will acquire
equal decision making rights.

: Majority vote is the oppression of the minority by the majority.

: If this is the best one can come up with even under idealised
: situations, I see absolutely no reason to change the status quo!

Ah, but you miss the point. You might be in the minority in a particular
context, but a part of the majority in a different one. So it always
balances out. And anyway, since the cooperative spirit is not about
exercising the hegemony of the few, the members will soon realise that
it is not in their interest to oppress each other.

: >and whoever wlse is forming the extended family, should operate by the
: >one-person, one-vote principle whenever decsions have to be taken. A
:

: Sayan, humans don't make decision based on logic alone, they

: do it based on often totally illogical and even counter productive
: reasons.

Again you miss the point. A democratic decision based on pure emotion
is to favoured over a logical decision handed out by fiat. The
important thing is that ALL members of the (family-)cooperative get to
voice their opinion and the decision (no matter how trivial the matter be)
is taken in a truly democratic function. If the decision is indeed
counterproductive, the cooperative learns from its mistake and eschews
the particular path in future decision-making.

: >domination-based arrangement, one based on absolute kortritwo, is simply
: >not needed!

: Yeah, but as a theoretical best fit solution, it is no better

: or worse than your precious one person one vote coop!!! If I am on the
: minority side of the fence, and more often than not I find myself
: there, it doesn't matter to me whether one person makes the decision,
: or a bunch of self righteous morons do, I still lose....

:
: Santanu

A classic case of paranoia induced by the overbearing `dominator' society.
It is not to say that such situations will never arise, but the spirit
of cooperation makes them rare indeed. You should read the history of
the cooperative movement to appreciate the simplicity and the greatness
of the system.

Regards
Debajyoti
PS. invisible S's galore !

[S Bhattacharyya]

bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:

>S Bhattacharyya <san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Majority vote is the oppression of the minority by the majority.
>>If this is the best one can come up with even under idealised
>>situations, I see absolutely no reason to change the status quo!

>You are assuming here that the _same_ person will always be in a minority

>in _each_ vote. Do you have any reason for making this assumption?

>Isn't it more likely that in some votes, person A will be in a minority
>and in some votes (s)he will be in a majority? On an average every person
>will be in a majority more often than (s)he is in a minority (a little
>math will convince you while this has to be this way).

>Thus most persons will be happy most of the time. (Contrast this with
>dictatorship or intra-family tyranny, in which some people are happy all the
>time and and some unfortunate ones are unhappy _all_ the time. Thus I
>submit that my solution is substantially better than the dictatorship
>solution, but of course my solution does not lead to a utopia, because
>utopias do not exist. I did not claim my solution to be utopic -- I
>simply claimed it to be better.

Not all votes are equally important. IMHO only those that
effect a person's ideology are truly crucial. So, while I agree that
the law of averages does have a role to play, it does not really make
everyone equally happy, even in the long run.

>>
>>>and whoever wlse is forming the extended family, should operate by the
>>>one-person, one-vote principle whenever decsions have to be taken. A
>>
>> Sayan, humans don't make decision based on logic alone, they
>>do it based on often totally illogical and even counter productive
>>reasons.

>Quite true, but what has that got to do with what I said above? The

>members of the family may well vote on emotional reasons. The important
>point here is not _why_ they are voting in a specific way on each issue,
>but the principle that everyone gets a chance to exercise their choice
>democratically. Whether that choice was arrived at logically or emotionally
>doesn't seem particularly relevant here.

Ah! That means a person, or group of persons, might
consistently vote against another person, or group of persons purely
out of spite. Sure, nothing theoretically wrong with the concept,
except that the management of the said coop will go to hell in a
handbasket before you can spell Mao_tse_tung!

>> Yeah, but as a theoretical best fit solution, it is no better
>>or worse than your precious one person one vote coop!!! If I am on the
>>minority side of the fence, and more often than not I find myself
>>there, it doesn't matter to me whether one person makes the decision,
>>or a bunch of self righteous morons do, I still lose....
>

>In the specific context that we are discussing here, if the situation

>is as you describe and you find yourself surrounded by uncaring people
>who vote you down every time and pass proposals that hurt your
>interests, then that indicates that it is time for you to dissociate
>yourself from such people , leave the co-operative and perhaps join
>a better co-operative. (In the context that we are talking about here,
>this means dissolving the marriage if you are a spouse). Why should
>one remain in a dysfunctional marriage?

Aha, so we are proposing a splinter coop ? You realise that
very soon the whole coop would splinter into individuals, and that is
the way the world is right now ? So Sayan, the asymptotic solution to
your pseudo_utopia is the current world state. Remarkable, innit ?

Santanu

[S Bhattacharyya]

dgu...@buphy.bu.edu (Indranil DasGupta) writes:

>Indranil DasGupta (dgu...@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:

>Erratum:

What if the girl next door seduces all the teenage boys and
gets voting rights to their shares ? Does that mean she, an outsider, could
possibly get more say in the rights of the said family than even the
adult members ? Tahole hoyechhe, family bhoge gelo boley!

Santanu

>IDG.

[sayan bhattacharyya]

rajib-er somriddho alochona-Ti kobul kore sei puraton onuman-Ti-ke, jotha
kina, kono samajik lokshmon-kei kokhono somajer onyanyo prokriya-r theke
bibikto kore dekha, bojha ba bishleshon kora sombhob noy | konokale-i
sombhob chhilo na | rajib sundor dekhiechhen shwoshru-kool bonam bodhu-r
puraton kNodol kemon-bhabe somaje kshomota (power) -er choritro (nature)
ebong soroboraho (distribution) -er songe bishesh songshlishTo |

ekotha bohubar alochito hoye thake kemon bhabe
somaje orthonoitik bhitti ("base"), onorthonoitik (non-economic) uporikaTHamo
("superstructure")-ke nirdharon ("determine") kore thake | byaktigoto
sompotti ("private property") bhitti-r ontorgoto, rajeeb chomotkar
dekhalen keebhabe ekhane ta uporikaTHamogoto (superstructural) ekti
samajik prokriya-ke poroksho-bhabe nirdharon kore dichchhe daybhag-er
sutre |

je samajik prokriya-r mool orthonoitik prokriya-te prothito, tar somadhan-o
je orthonoitik prokriyar poribortone nirdeshito hobe se bishoye sondeho
ki? prithibi o somaj-ke palTano ebong byaktigoto malikana-r obolupti
ghotano, jar dike kina bishwo kromosho gNuRi mere egiye cholechhe, ta-i ei
somosyar somadhaner chabi-kaTHi |

[S Bhattacharyya]

deb...@mppmu.mpg.de (Debajyoti Choudhury) writes:

>S Bhattacharyya (san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[..............]]]]]]]]]]]]]

>: Majority vote is the oppression of the minority by the majority.

>: If this is the best one can come up with even under idealised
>: situations, I see absolutely no reason to change the status quo!

>Ah, but you miss the point. You might be in the minority in a particular

>context, but a part of the majority in a different one. So it always
>balances out. And anyway, since the cooperative spirit is not about
>exercising the hegemony of the few, the members will soon realise that
>it is not in their interest to oppress each other.

Not all votes are equally important. IMHO only those that

effect a person's ideology are truly crucial. Of course, every person
has a different perspective on this. So, while I agree that

the law of averages does have a role to play, it does not really make

everyone equally happy, even in the long run. i.e it doesn't always
balance out.

>: >and whoever wlse is forming the extended family, should operate by the

>: >one-person, one-vote principle whenever decsions have to be taken. A
>:
>: Sayan, humans don't make decision based on logic alone, they
>: do it based on often totally illogical and even counter productive
>: reasons.

>Again you miss the point. A democratic decision based on pure emotion

>is to favoured over a logical decision handed out by fiat. The
>important thing is that ALL members of the (family-)cooperative get to
>voice their opinion and the decision (no matter how trivial the matter be)
>is taken in a truly democratic function. If the decision is indeed
>counterproductive, the cooperative learns from its mistake and eschews
>the particular path in future decision-making.

Even if this leads to an ill run, mismanaged and ill efficient
cooperative/family ? Ex: you have three kids, all are teenagers, all
wanna have sex in your bedroom, with people of their choice. You and
your spouse think this is a really bad idea. You two vote against it,
your three children vote in favour of it. They win, you loose. Is this
a solution you can live with ? Democracy is a bad idea, its
implications are worse!

>: >domination-based arrangement, one based on absolute kortritwo, is simply
>: >not needed!

>: Yeah, but as a theoretical best fit solution, it is no better

>: or worse than your precious one person one vote coop!!! If I am on the
>: minority side of the fence, and more often than not I find myself
>: there, it doesn't matter to me whether one person makes the decision,
>: or a bunch of self righteous morons do, I still lose....

>:
>: Santanu

>A classic case of paranoia induced by the overbearing `dominator' society.
>It is not to say that such situations will never arise, but the spirit
>of cooperation makes them rare indeed. You should read the history of

Ever life in a real world coop ? You will find out very
quickly that while all folks are always equal, some are just a little
bit more equal than others. That sucks!

>the cooperative movement to appreciate the simplicity and the greatness
>of the system.

Yeah right!! The only way you can truly appreciate a coop, is
to live in one! Why don't you bookworms understand, that the real
lessons of life are in living it, not *READING* about it. Duh!!
All the best,
Santanu

[Shubu Mukherjee]

>>>>> In article <4uctiq$m...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (Srabani Banerjee) writes:

>> Bodhu nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!

SB> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
SB> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.

...

SB> Right, kintu she'rom dekhlei amra shegulo-ke exception bole katiye
SB> diye thaki.

...

SB> Apni ekta anecdote shonale ami to doshta shonate pari - tai diye ki proman
SB> hoy Sir?

...

Apnar nijer kotha-tei contradiction Srabani-debi!

-Shubu

--

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shubu Mukherjee University of Wisconsin-Madison, Computer Sciences

[rajib doogar]

sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:

<snip>
: je samajik prokriya-r mool orthonoitik prokriya-te prothito, tar somadhan-o

: je orthonoitik prokriyar poribortone nirdeshito hobe se bishoye sondeho
: ki? prithibi o somaj-ke palTano ebong byaktigoto malikana-r obolupti
: ghotano, jar dike kina bishwo kromosho gNuRi mere egiye cholechhe, ta-i ei
: somosyar somadhaner chabi-kaTHi |

shadhubader jonyo bohutoro dhonnobad. ogulo cchanTai korlam. apnar
uporjukkto ukti proshonge ekTa boktobbo royecche:

byaktigoto malikanar oboluptir lokkhon dekhte khub ekta parcchi na.
ontoto jotoTuku poDcchi ba dekhcchi ba kotha bole jancchi tate to mone
hoy je shomokalin shomaj eknagaDe byektigoto hitoshadhon'e motto. eTai
kothin shotto. Jamon dhorun ami ebong bodhay scb'r bohu pathokei
kintu ekebare byektigoto hitoshadhoner jonyei america'a boshe
acchi(acchen). prithibir opare-o, bharotborsh'e, pakistan'e,
bangladesh'e, chin'e-japan'e, mane jekhanei nojor jai shekhane, nanan
loke, rajnitite ba byabshay ba onyo kono kormokhettre byektigoto
hitoshadhonTakei promukho bole gonyo korben onuman kori. kebolmatro
kichu adhyatmik ba ashaheen romanchokari goccher lokei kintu
jonshoarthe ba jonohite kaj koren. ta shei mushthimeo manush ke niye
hoyto andolon chalano jay, hoyto biplob-o kora jay kintu paribarik
shomporkko ki shodhrano jabe bole aapni mone koren?

ami to mone kori je na, hobe na. nirashabaditar ontoto duTi khub
bolishtho karon royecche: prothomTa shomajboigyanik ebong dwitioTa
jibboigyanik. duTo karon-i kintu ei byektigoto shomppotir prothar
pokkhe karjyokori, tar bipokkhe noy. tai ei shamajik malikana ba
gosthimulok malikanar byapare ami ekhono kinchito shongshoyi.
shonghkhepe bola jete paare je shomajbigyan theke jotodur dekha ba
jana jay, manob-projatir ekTi lokkhon holo manush'er parthokyo
shrishTi korar adomyo kamona, shei prothom guhar deoale aanka chobi
theke arombho kore ajker je kono gogonchumbi ottalika nirman-i niye
nin na kyano (othoba biplobi shomaj poribortoner procheshTai nin)
moTamuTi bhabe konTai ba byektigoto mohima-sthaponer icchachyuto?
Srijon manei parthokyo shrishTi kora. Ebong 'shrishTi o malikanar
kono obyahotito shomporkko nei' shutre jodio apni onek likhecchen,
jodi khoma koren to boli je shegulo poDeo kintu shebishoy'e amar moner
shondeho nibaron prokriyaTi ekhono nitantoi oshomapto.

Dwityo karon holo jibboigyanik: udbortoner jonyo prani matroi nijer
poribeshke niyontron korte chay ebong je prani jotoTa beshi poribesh
niyontron korte paare she totTa beshi shophol hoy udborton prokriay.
ei udborton pronali thekei dol, jati, gondi ebong poribarer utshyo.
emon ki manusher dolgothoner probrittiTake ek dhoroner gobhir
projononshutrik karjyokrom bole dhora jete paare. tai, jodio poribar
shongothon ekebare nikhNut noy, onyanyo je shomosto shomadhan
shombhob, tader modhye utkrishto bolei udborton prokriyay sheti
nirbachito hoyecche. ei dhoroner nirbachon prokriyar phol kintu khubi
sthayi hoy. sheTike noDbod korte paarben bole jotheshTo shondeho jodi
prokash kori to asha kori marjona korben.

ebar ekTu batela di: dekhun manush ke je kono prokriyar modhyei phele
din na kano, eTa ki shombhob noy je tNara nijeder modhye kono dhoroner
parthokyo shrishti kore neben? amar anuman je parthokyo shristir
phole keu shilpi hoben keu lekhok hoben kintu abar keu keu
projononshastriyo karonboshoto dada hote chaiben. ebong ei dadagirir
projononshonket jNader royecche tNara kono na kono mote parthokyo
shrisTi korben'i. Shutorang ek bhabe na aar ek bhabe parthokyo ebong
tar pholoshworup korttritto bhab ba khomotalolupotar dharonati manusher
mon theke meTano jete pare ki na oti bitorkoniyo proshno.

TacchaDa jibboigyanik chapgulo amar mote shomajboigyanik chaper thekeo
probol ebong ei chaper shathe poribar byabosthar je gobhir shomporko
royecche tar bishoye aar kono shondeho nei. poribar byabostha kono ek
shiddhantik kathamor bishlehon poddhoti'te onotkrishTo holeo,
shombhobotar porishimar modhye utkrisho bolei bodhoy shei byabosthaTi
shompurno joTil manob-shomajer modhye procholito.

Amar mone hoy je karjokori kono byabohar shongshodhan jodi ghoTate hoy
tahole duTi jinish monosthyo korle onekTa egono jabe: poribarer
poribhasha ebong tar ostitwer karon jodi protyekti shodoshyo bojhen
ebong dwitiyoto jodi meyeder arthik shwadhinota kono mote bastobikotay
rupantorito hoy. dwitiyoTi jokhon ghoTbe tokhon bharotiyo shomajke
prothom proshnoTi mukhomukhi hoye danDate hobe. jotodin dwitiyoTi
hocche na, meyederke "baDir gonDibodhho ek kormochari" hishabe dekha
shombhobpor. jokhon eTa palTe jabe, tokhon aar shei shamajik
shompottikoron na shiddho holeo dekhte parben je meyeder obstha
(pittri-pokkhe ebong shoshurbaDite), nijei rupantorito hobe. taar
kicchu kicchu ingit ito:purbei poaoa geche, amar onuman je e bishoye
amra dunirbar dharabahik shongshodhon dekhbo, nijder jibitokale.
shikkha ebong tar pore orthonoitik shwadhinota uparjoner sujog: ei
duTi jodi kora jay, taholei shomshyar onekTa shomadhan nijei hobe.
onyotro hoyecche, bharoteo hobe, bangladeshe-o hobe, bangali shomajeo
hobe boi ki. ebong amar onuman je poribarer uposthit kathamor modhye
thekeo ei poriborton ghoTano ekebarei shombhob.

shubheccha neben,

rajib

[sayan bhattacharyya]

S Bhattacharyya <san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:

> Aha, so we are proposing a splinter coop ?

Not at all. One could leave a dysfunctional co-op and join another existing
healthy flourishing co-op. Over time, the unsuccessful, dysfunctional co-ops
will suffer attrition and die a natural death, whereas the co-ops that
have built up a reputation for working well and have high member satisfaction,
will survive and grow. It is simply natural selection in action.

>You realise that
>very soon the whole coop would splinter into individuals, and that is
>the way the world is right now ? So Sayan, the asymptotic solution to
>your pseudo_utopia is the current world state. Remarkable, innit ?

Not so, because of the reasons above.

[Debajyoti Choudhury]

Indranil DasGupta (dgu...@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:
: sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:

: : My solution to the problem: the wife, the husband, the in-laws (on either

: : spouse's side) and whoever else wishes to be part of the extended family,
: : must form a co-operative. The co-operative should be based on democratic
: : decision-making by majority vote. The husband, the wife, the in-law(s)

: : and whoever wlse is forming the extended family, should operate by the

: : one-person, one-vote principle whenever decsions have to be taken. A

: : domination-based arrangement, one based on absolute kortritwo, is simply
: : not needed!

: The most ridiculous of all solutions! Many people in the family may not

: be interested in the decision making! Why can't they have the option of

A typical response of one steeped in the values of a domination based
system ! There is no reason why any sane person should like to relinquish
her rights. Only in a dominator society do we see the the weak being
conditioned to think that they do want somebody else to decide for them.

: trading their right to vote for something else?

You have to bring in the capitalist approach, don't you ? Please remember
that in such a society that we envisage, there will be no need to generate
surplus and hence no willing or unwilling subversion of the process of
direct democracy.

: IMHO, the whole thing should be
: treated as a free and
: fair market. Initially every adult should be given 400

You may treat it as a `free and fair market' but only if everybody is at
a level playing ground. In fact a cooperative society with direct democracy
is a fair market as every member pools in with her own special effort and
all work is fairly (and equally) valued.

: shares. Every minor over 12 years gets 200. Children under 12 and

So the discrimination starts ! Why is it that you propose such unequal
starting point if not with a hidden agenda to subjugate one class ?!
In a cooperative family, on the other hand, all members are on an equal
footing and have equal say. Irrespective of their economic and mental
abilities.

Regards
Debajyoti

[Debajyoti Choudhury]

Indranil DasGupta (dgu...@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:
: Indranil DasGupta (dgu...@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:

: Erratum:

: Okay, okay, second thought. There should be a ceiling on the number of
: shares owned by the pets. Under no circumstances can they hold more than
: 50 percent of the shares. However if the dog is smart enough to think of
: "benami" then there is a slight problem...

: Nothing's perfect. So what?

: IDG.

It is easy to put up a strawman opponent and then laugh it off. However,
you would not be so smug if only you cared to check the resounding success
of the Jondramon cooperative movement in Spanish Sub Sahara

Regards
Debajyoti

PS. again invisible S's galore !

[Debajyoti Choudhury]

S Bhattacharyya (san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: deb...@mppmu.mpg.de (Debajyoti Choudhury) writes:

: >Again you miss the point. A democratic decision based on pure emotion

: >is to favoured over a logical decision handed out by fiat. The
: >important thing is that ALL members of the (family-)cooperative get to
: >voice their opinion and the decision (no matter how trivial the matter be)
: >is taken in a truly democratic function. If the decision is indeed
: >counterproductive, the cooperative learns from its mistake and eschews
: >the particular path in future decision-making.

: Even if this leads to an ill run, mismanaged and ill efficient
: cooperative/family ? Ex: you have three kids, all are teenagers, all
: wanna have sex in your bedroom, with people of their choice. You and
: your spouse think this is a really bad idea. You two vote against it,
: your three children vote in favour of it. They win, you loose. Is this
: a solution you can live with ? Democracy is a bad idea, its

Why not, as long as the people of choice are not I (or the spouse if
he/she also disfavours the idea) !

: implications are worse!

: Ever life in a real world coop ? You will find out very

: quickly that while all folks are always equal, some are just a little
: bit more equal than others. That sucks!

: >the cooperative movement to appreciate the simplicity and the greatness
: >of the system.

: Yeah right!! The only way you can truly appreciate a coop, is
: to live in one! Why don't you bookworms understand, that the real
: lessons of life are in living it, not *READING* about it. Duh!!

To this, I'd only say that you should either have a look at the postscript
at the end of my post (to which you replied) or at IDG's posts in this
thread and my rejoinders.

: All the best,
: Santanu
:

: >PS. invisible S's galore !

Going slightly off the thread, are you, by any chance, the person who, a
while ago, was defending Calcutta Univ in a debate on the state of computer
education therein ? If so, I suppose you are a student of science and
consequently I must conclude that CU fails to teach its students one very
basic tool of scientific argumentation. Not a very nice thought, I'm afraid.

Regards
Debajyoti

[sayan bhattacharyya]

rajib doogar <rdo...@wood.helios.nd.edu> wrote:
>
>TacchaDa jibboigyanik chapgulo amar mote shomajboigyanik chaper thekeo
>probol

>rajib

onosweekarjo, kintu apni bhule jacchhen je manusher songe onyanyo janoarer
ekTa biraT gunogoto probhed royechhe : minse-gulo bhashabyabohar shikhe
gechhe, ja kina onyanyo pranee-guli pare na | tar phole nichhok joibo
bibortoner niyom-Ta aar manusher belay THik khaTchhe na, karon manush
ekTi porajoibik storet unneeto hoye gechhen | onyanyo janoar kamRa-kamRi
kore moret bole manush-keo ta kortei hobet emon kono badhyobadhokota nei
nichhok ei karonei je: bhasha namok ei ashchorjo bostu-tir dakshinye
manush ekta otistor ("meta-level") theke sweeo karjokolap-ke dekhte,
bishleshon korte ebong, hNya, poribortito ("modify") korte sokshom |
onyanyo jontuguli itihaser boli hoy kintu manush itihas toiree koret,
eTa ekTi hekko probhed bolet amar dharona | jemon dhorun amar kukur
ebong apnar kukur kukur somajer bhobishyot niye alochona koren na jemoto
ami-apni minse-somajer bhobishyot niye alochona korchhi | tachhara lokshyo
korle dekhben kukur-der usenet bole kono jinish nei (thakbei ba ki kore)
kintu manusher achhe | ni:sondehe biraT parthokyo!

Rosa Luxemburg ekoda bolechhilen je manusher bhobishyot holo : somajbad
othoba borborota ("socialism or barbarism") | ei batela-Ti amar otyonto
prokhor doorodrishTisomponno bole monet hoyechhe | jodi somajbad protishthito
na hoy ebong byaktigoto malikana-r obolupti na ghoTe, tahole swochhonde
bola jay je poribesh-dhwongso ityakar karone koyek shotoker modhye amader
projati bilupto hobe, kajei tokhon ei proshno-gulio obantor hoye jabe |

[sayan bhattacharyya]

S Bhattacharyya <san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>Democracy is a bad idea, its

>implications are worse!

Am I to understand that you are making a serious argument for
preferring authoritarianism to democracy?

> Ever life in a real world coop ? You will find out very
>quickly that while all folks are always equal, some are just a little
>bit more equal than others. That sucks!

Well, I happen to live in a real-world co-operative (the Inter-Cooperative
Council at Ann Arbor). In our co-op no one is more equal than others. You
need to have mechanisms to prevent this from happening, built into the
constitution and working of the co-operative.

[sayan bhattacharyya]

>: Indranil DasGupta (dgu...@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:
>
>: Erratum:
>
>: Okay, okay, second thought. There should be a ceiling on the number of
>: shares owned by the pets. Under no circumstances can they hold more than
>: 50 percent of the shares. However if the dog is smart enough to think of
>: "benami" then there is a slight problem...

I think that a more pressing problem, especially with the recent discovery of
life on Mars, is to decide whether voting rights should be extended to aliens
as well. I personally think that both earthlings and interplanetary aliens
have rights to vote as long as they choose to be co-op members.

-Sayan.

P.S. Following Debajyoti's example, invisible S's galore!

[rajib doogar]

sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:

: onosweekarjo, kintu apni bhule jacchhen je manusher songe onyanyo janoarer

: ekTa biraT gunogoto probhed royechhe : minse-gulo bhashabyabohar shikhe
: gechhe, ja kina onyanyo pranee-guli pare na | tar phole nichhok joibo
: bibortoner niyom-Ta aar manusher belay THik khaTchhe na, karon manush

eTa thik. amar bodh hoy torkoTa aro sposhTo bhabe lekha uchit cchilo.
ami bolte chai je jehetu ei projonshutrik karjyokrom emon gobhir bhabe
amader byabohare lipto, shehetu khub ekta shohoje manusher shobhab
ebong bybaohar palTano jabe na. manusher gonDemir jodi kono
"bibortoni mulyo" na thakto, gonDemi emon promukho ekti "shobhab" hoye
uthTo na. protyekei amra kono na kono bishoye gonDa -- apni hoyto
goNda biplobi aar ami hoyto gonDa rokkhonshil (torker khatirei bollam
ar ki). "gonDemir" "bibortoni mulyoshoncharon prokriya shombondhe
amar dharona nimnobortti ongshe likcchi jate dekhte paren ami
"kottheke aashcchi". ekhane shudhu ei tuku bolbo je je tottwo-i
byabohar kora hoy, ete to shondeho nei je poribesher jodi shothik
poriborton na kora hoy, tahole je byabohar palTate chaicchen tar
poribortton ghoTbe na? ta jodi paribarik khomotar punorbitoron
korte chai, tahole poribarer poribeshe emong ekTa shongshodhon korte
hobe jate bancchito byabohar "nirbachito" hobe.

hNya bhasha shikhe, rajnoitik tottwo bujhe, shocheton bhabe byaboharer
boiplobik shongshodhon shombhob, eTa onosshikarjyo. kintu, amar mote
kinchito ashhabhabik ebong ekebarei oshombhob -- chindesher udahoron
diye di? na ki rus desher udahoron debo? dekhun, je kono shashon
byabosthai anun na keno, ghore ghore jodi byabohar palTate hoy, oi
shompottir malikanar moton bimurto dharona niye TanaTani korar theke
shudhu matro ekTu shikkha ebong ekTu orthonoitik shujog joTate parlei
ami khushi hobo.

ebare phire asha jak gonDemir bibortoni mulyo shoncharon prokriyar
alochonay. ami andaj korcchi je eTao ekantoi shombhobpor je manusher
projonshutrik karjyokrom'e emong kono ekta upo-karjyokrom thakTe paare
jar phole shamajik byaboharer kono ruDho poriborton korbar cheshTa
korle mansuh tate bhoDkabe. Dawkins ebong onyanyo jibbigyani
tottwobider lekha theke dekha jay je manusher byabohar-shonchari
karjyokromTi emon bhabe gothito jate manushe shomaje (ba shamajik
poribeshe bolle aaro shothik hobe) shapholyo labh korte paare. ebar
bhebe dekhun je apnar nijermote-i to shamajik poriborton-er goti oti
mondo. ei monthor goti ebong gonDemi eke oporer jonyo toiri (aah shei
willsfilter'er ashoad ki bhola jay?). Je shonchari karjyokrom
manusher "prokriti" (ekhane prokriti mane byabohar-shonchari
karjyokrom nirdharito bohiragoto uddiponer protyuttor) nirdharon kore
tate emon ekTa onuman jodi joDito thake je "bhobishotTa onekTai otiter
moton hobe", tahole shei shoncharini karjyokrom jodi duTi poribesher
modhye bancchai korte paare, tahole she puraton poribesher nikoTotomo
poribeshTi'i bencche nebe othat she manusher byabohar shwabhabik
bhabei rokkhonshil prokriti'r lokkon debe. ebong tar phole a-mul
shamajik poriboton jodi ghoTate hoy tahole khub darun bhabe ei
shabhabik rokkhonshiltota ke katiye uthte hobe -- jemon Rus ba chin
deshe kora hoyecchilo. ebong ei nishthur domoner cheshta nitantoi
byartho hoyecche. (ekhane ami marxbad ba shomajtontro niye alochona
korte chaicchi na, shudhu matro bolte chaicchi je "nobeen manob"
gothoner "biplobi" prochesTa ei duTo deshe shorbadhik gombhirota ebong
driDhotar shathe shokriyo cchilo -- ei utsye Nazi ba fascist manobik
punorgothoner proyashke ami nitantoi rokkhonsheel bole gonyo kori
bolle bujhben je oi duti porikkha ke ami bad dilam). tai mone hoy je
manusher "choritro" poribortoner jonye je dhoroner shamajik poriborton
proyojoniyo, shei maper porikkha korar khomota manob shomajer
bortomane nei. jemon dhorun emon kicchu paromanobik podartho royecche
jar lokkhon pete hole je porimaner onugotibordhok jontro gothon korte
hobe taar nirman korar moto ortho ebong khomota bortoman manob
shomajer nei. amar to mone hoy je manusher ei gonDe choritro paltano
shei paromanobik porikkhar thekeo dushkar. tahole ei uddeshyo jodi
puron kortei hoy tahole birjyer theke chaturjyo'i sreyo ebong
chatujyer lokkhon holo jotoTuku proyojon, totoTukui porbiorton kora,
tar beshi noy. tai, amar mote "ektu shikkha ebong ektu orthonoitik
shujog" karjyokromti "shompurno shompotti bhittik shomporker boiplobik
punorgothon" karjyokromer theke sreyo.

ashakori ebar porishkar hoyecche "jibboigyanik chap"'er shathe amar
purpobortti ukti'r shomporko.

: ekTi porajoibik storet unneeto hoye gechhen | onyanyo janoar kamRa-kamRi

: kore moret bole manush-keo ta kortei hobet emon kono badhyobadhokota nei
: nichhok ei karonei je: bhasha namok ei ashchorjo bostu-tir dakshinye
: manush ekta otistor ("meta-level") theke sweeo karjokolap-ke dekhte,
: bishleshon korte ebong, hNya, poribortito ("modify") korte sokshom |
: onyanyo jontuguli itihaser boli hoy kintu manush itihas toiree koret,
: eTa ekTi hekko probhed bolet amar dharona | jemon dhorun amar kukur
: ebong apnar kukur kukur somajer bhobishyot niye alochona koren na jemoto
: ami-apni minse-somajer bhobishyot niye alochona korchhi | tachhara lokshyo
: korle dekhben kukur-der usenet bole kono jinish nei (thakbei ba ki kore)
: kintu manusher achhe | ni:sondehe biraT parthokyo!

kintu manush-o ekti jontu -- emong ekti jontu aar dwitiyo ekhono
khunje paoajayni, tai bhasha ebong bimurto dharona niye alochona
kotoTa manush-ke onyo jontuder theke thik kotoTa prithok kore rakhe
jani na. Scientific American'er patay kicchudin age dekhecchilam je
shishuk'e naki kicchu kicchu bimurto dharona odhigoton'er shakhyo dey
(ekTi shishuk-ke onukoron koriya onyo shishuke joler modhye nanan
dhoroner bayu-bhortito noksha shrishTi korte "shikheccche"). tar mane
drutogotite anukoron korar prokriyaTi "khela-dhulor" khettre-o
jontu-jogote karjyokori. er shothik mane ekhono bujhe uthTe parini
kintu manush je ekebare odbhut jontu jar khetre biborton ruddho
hoyecche bolei she je kono bimudho tottwer khatire nijer byabohar
plaTe nite parbe, ei upadanTi'r kono proman to dekhcchi na.

borong ulTe dekhcchi je jekhane jekhane emon porikkha kora hoyecche,
kon na kono karon boshote shei procheshTa bheste gyacche. ontoto
pokkhe eTa theke aar kicchu na shikhleo ei Tuku ki bola jay je
"shomajbadi towwobid nirdharito shomajbyabosthar adaykoron durlobh"?
tai boiplobik byabohar poriborton procheshTar proti amar monobhab ekTu
rokkhonsheel. shomajer shorashori a-mul poriborton korar procheshta
shob-i byartho hoyecche, kintu ekhane okhane chotur ebong kousholi
poriborton onek bar-i atyonto druto gotite shomajer protyokkho
poriborton ghoTate shokkhom hoyecche. shei obhigNyotar bipokkhe apni
je torkoguli dicchen shegul ekhono amake dhormantorito korte pare ni.

: Rosa Luxemburg ekoda bolechhilen je manusher bhobishyot holo : somajbad

: othoba borborota ("socialism or barbarism") | ei batela-Ti amar otyonto
: prokhor doorodrishTisomponno bole monet hoyechhe | jodi somajbad protishthito
: na hoy ebong byaktigoto malikana-r obolupti na ghoTe, tahole swochhonde
: bola jay je poribesh-dhwongso ityakar karone koyek shotoker modhye amader
: projati bilupto hobe, kajei tokhon ei proshno-gulio obantor hoye jabe |

eTa niye torko, bishesoto apnar shathe, korar moton dhrishTota ba
mudhoTa amar nai. mane byektigoto malikana oboluptir shathe jodi
aapni poribesh-dhwongshoner gotimaner hrash hobe bole asha kore
thaken, tahole to bolte hobe je "amader alochona korar kicchui nei"
karon amra manob-choritrer mulogoto onumanei biporitmukho.

nomoshkarante,

rajib

[rajib doogar]

sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:

: I think that a more pressing problem, especially with the recent discovery of

: life on Mars, is to decide whether voting rights should be extended to aliens

I vote we take a collection to send Sayan babu as our Earth ambassador
to the martians(with enough fuel for a one-way trip to Mars). The one
way part follows because he's going to like the task of building a new
world order so much that he's not going to want to come back why be
politically incorrect and environmentally profilgate enough to throw
away the fuel for the return trip? we'll miss him on scb, but as
bengalis we are always ready to sacrifice another for the greater
glory of the human race, no matter how much it pains us.

if you didn't see all the smileys you must be blind :)

ciao,

rajib

[Srabani Banerjee]

Shubu Mukherjee writes:

>>> Bodhu nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!
>
>SB> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
>SB> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.
>
>...
>
>SB> Right, kintu she'rom dekhlei amra shegulo-ke exception bole katiye
>SB> diye thaki.
>
>...
>
>SB> Apni ekta anecdote shonale ami to doshta shonate pari - tai diye ki proman
>SB> hoy Sir?
>
>...
>
>Apnar nijer kotha-tei contradiction Srabani-debi!

Do you understand the difference between a well-chronicled case and an
anecdote? More importantly, do you realize that when I mentioned the
DB case, it was to point out that generalisations about the out-datedness
of `bodhu-nirjaton' should not be made?

Srabani

p.s. Its easier to talk to people who do not put me on a pedestal, so
could we do without that `debi', please? :)

[Srabani Banerjee]

Shyam Chakraborty writes:

[...]

>setai to holo kotha! Ami kono-o Mohilar somalochona kore probleme jete
>chai na, kintu keno tini mene nichchhen, eta bola besh mushkil! Amar
>dharona, kortrityo korar ichchhe aarki.
-----------------------------
Bujhlam na.

>> >Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen.
>>
>> Na hole bhalo hoto?
>
>Aar hothat ki karon ghotlo je bou ra aager dine poDe roechhe(n)?

Eta-o na.

>> Bodhu
>> >nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!
>>

>> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -

>> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.
>

>Tahole aapnader raag shudhu ShashuDi-der oporei keno?

Abar generalisation. Amar lekha poDe apnar kothay monet holo je amar
`raag shudhu ShashuDi-der oporei', sheta ektu janaben?

Srabani

[S Bhattacharyya]

deb...@mppmu.mpg.de (Debajyoti Choudhury) writes:

>Going slightly off the thread, are you, by any chance, the person who, a
>while ago, was defending Calcutta Univ in a debate on the state of computer
>education therein ? If so, I suppose you are a student of science and
>consequently I must conclude that CU fails to teach its students one very
>basic tool of scientific argumentation. Not a very nice thought, I'm afraid.

>Regards
> Debajyoti

you'd be well advised to stay off personal attacks, Debajyoti. While
I don't always respond in kind, i am sometimes sorely tempted. Since
you are an obvious newbie on usenet, I'd advise you to learn to
be polite,
Regards,
Santanu

[S Bhattacharyya]

bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:

>S Bhattacharyya <san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Democracy is a bad idea, its
>>implications are worse!

>Am I to understand that you are making a serious argument for
>preferring authoritarianism to democracy?

Nah! democracy is a bad idea but its also the only one
with a modicum of fairness about it. But any idealistic society
built with democracy as a given will also inherit all the ills of
democracy. That's all I am saying.....

>> Ever life in a real world coop ? You will find out very
>>quickly that while all folks are always equal, some are just a little
>>bit more equal than others. That sucks!

>Well, I happen to live in a real-world co-operative (the Inter-Cooperative
>Council at Ann Arbor). In our co-op no one is more equal than others. You
>need to have mechanisms to prevent this from happening, built into the
>constitution and working of the co-operative.

I am moving into one myself pretty soon, we'll see how it goes.
BTW, I might have sent you (sayan) an email by mistake, please ignore it.

Santanu

[Arindam Banerjee]

the
> >inherent tendency of human beings to dominate over the weak, be it a man
> >or a woman.

> >Sharmila
>

Absolutely correct!

Humay toe loot liya hai milkay husnwaloN nay
Goray-goray galoN nay, kalay-kalay baloN nay

Arindam Banerjee
Disclaimer: My opinions do not involve my employer.

[Srabani Banerjee]

Debajyoti Chowdhury writes:

>I note with deep consternation that the children, not to say the infants,
>have been left out of this list. As they constitute the abused class most
>often, a cooperative where all children are not full and equal members is
>inherently flawed.

Are you equating child abuse with the present family situation where
they are not `full and equal members'? Am I actually beginning to see
`invisible S's' here? :)

>In the society of the future children will acquire
>equal decision making rights.

From what age?

I agree that children are often the most abused class - but what good
would `equal decision making rights' do? Don't you think that their
rather special conditions should make them privileged members of
any set-up - present or future? That their rights are somewhat more
special than those of ordinary adults?

You know, as a child I really loved doing stupid things like tearing
up books and poking at electrical plug-points with metal pieces.
And i wished I had equal decision making rights. It sure would have
been fun, especially because I am sure I could have rounded up my
brother and cousins in, at least, some of my endeavours and out-voted
those pokey-nosed adults. :)

Srabani

[O.Nasim]

Okay, I have some really really lame but basic questions on
this subject (though I agree with what I've read of Sayan's
writing about it so far). First: How much personal control
over one's own body can be possessed by a member of such a
proposed co-operative society/family? Will the constitution
contain laws not only against members acting undemocratically
- but also against the making of democratic decisions which
jeopardise the life of an individual or individuals? Simply
put; will majorities be permitted to take the life of
minorities into their hands?

For instance - a family has a disabled child/relative who would
like to live. The familial majority votes that he/she should die.
Also imagine that this person is too incapacitated to get up and
move to another co-op - assuming they would take her. Or that
every possible co-op votes for death.

Slightly less morbid: A murderer is discovered in the co-op.
Can the co-op then vote to execute this person?

Anyway, what about euthanasia? Or a person wishing to die whilst
most others want that person to live? And what of people who for
whatever reason cannot communicate their wishes?

Or again less morbid: A pregnant woman wants an abortion. The
majority votes that she will not have one. Or perhaps a woman
wishes to have the child whilst the majority,(perhaps not
wanting a new member), votes for her to have it terminated.
Well I suppose in this hypothetical situation she would find
a new co-op. Or start one herself with at least one other
person? (There is of course a limit on the number of members
in a co-op - is there also a number, besides 1, which _must_
be reached? A limit to the number of co-ops that can spring up?

And one other thing: Would laws governing the relationships
between the co-ops be adequate to prevent - for example - one
co-op voting to attack or declare war on another? Could there
exist a general law forbidding any use of agression, however
agreed upon?

[Shubu Mukherjee]

>>>>> In article <320B79...@shiva.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu>, Sharmila Mukherjee <s...@shiva.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu> writes:

>> etake aapnar shworgo bole mone holo? Jekhane shashuDi-bou-er modhye mon
>> koshakoshi nei, dujone mile cinema deklhte jachchhe, shashuDi bou er
>> proshongshai ponchmukh; bou baper baDi giye shashuDi-r ninde korchhe na-
>> etake aapnar shworgo bole mone holo? Modhyobitto Bangaleer jiibone ta
>> somuuho durbishoho. Jibone aar baki roilo ta ki?

SM> :-).....jibon to tokhon shuru hobe, ki bolen?

Apnader ki obbhigyota jani na, kintu nijer ma ebong amar shorgiyo
thakuma-r moddhe erokom relation dekhechhilam. The same exists with
my sister-in-law and mother.

While the responsibility lies with both shashuri ebong bou, aajkaalkar
onek meyerai shoshur bari-te probesh kor-e shashuri dojjal ei dhor-e
niye. Biyer agei bondhu-der finacee-der shashuri-ke galagal dit-e
shunechhi, although nijer hobu shashuri-r shonge bhalo kor-e alap-i
hoi ni eder.

[Dadu]

Srabani likhechhen (jNara amake Dadu-babu bolben, tNader ami difinitely
-Debi likhbo):

>
> Shyam Chakraborty writes:
>
> [...]
>
> >setai to holo kotha! Ami kono-o Mohilar somalochona kore probleme jete
> >chai na, kintu keno tini mene nichchhen, eta bola besh mushkil! Amar
> >dharona, kortrityo korar ichchhe aarki.
> -----------------------------
> Bujhlam na.

To make myself clear, aapnara thik ke ki poribesh (ja nischoi aapnader
dristi vongi-r opor influence korechhe) theke esechhen, amar ehkono-o
porjonto clear dharona holo na.

Prothom theke amar mone hoechhe, eta shashuDi-r hate bodhu nirjaton
(psychologically and in some cases, physically as well) prosonge (other
wise the header is so?). Amar dharona, apnara sobai-i shashuDi-der
(nijer na holeo, onyo karur) khub kachhe theke dekhechhen. 33% of women
are rightfully shashuDi-s. (explanation: taking life expectancy of 75
years, by the age of 50, a lady should have a boy of at least 25, i.e.
marriagable age. So (75-50)/75 is 33%).

Now, taking granted, praay aapnar-i moton ek jon mohila will get married
to your brother, right? Do you expect trouble between her and your
mother? Possibly no. Reversibly, you as a woman, will be getting married
to some family who might have a daughter very similar to you, right? So,
does she expect trouble between you and her mother, and incense it? What
do you think?

All of you are talking of DB. Perhaps all of you know, it was not a
single day incidence. It was a long time since she had to fight against
odds. Did her own parental family help her much? Why it could happen
then? other wise it would not have culminated there. Is it, women (sp.
in Calcutta) still feel insecure in their own parental family?

>
> >> >Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen.
> >>
> >> Na hole bhalo hoto?
> >
> >Aar hothat ki karon ghotlo je bou ra aager dine poDe roechhe(n)?
>
> Eta-o na.

I meant, there is always a psychological (I only mean in simpler senses;
no Freud associated) tension between newly married families. That's
simply can't be rectfied if the involvement of rest of family doesn't
reduce to zero.

To my understanding, question is how to reduce this to 'reasonable'
level. I prsonally think in most of today's families, this takes a way
of expressing it, which is congenial. This tension is getting more
prominent now a days, when the 'bou' is a bit more emancipated.

Now, if a 'bou' does want to solve these issues by sword, then, I'd say,
she is staying in the mideaval age.

I just wanted to mean so.

>
> >> Bodhu
> >> >nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!
> >>
> >> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
> >> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.
> >
> >Tahole aapnader raag shudhu ShashuDi-der oporei keno?
>
> Abar generalisation. Amar lekha poDe apnar kothay monet holo je amar
> `raag shudhu ShashuDi-der oporei', sheta ektu janaben?

Generalisation kothai dekhlen Madam?

When you talk of DB, a number of socio-economic factors come forward.
Otherwise, DB is a singular case. Contextually, I have seen, one my very
close friend's sister burnt her self to death. There was tension; but I
know, she didn't get enough support from her parental family. This is
not, repeat not, a singular case. Tahole, ki byaparta, modhyo bityo
family-r ekta general dark side-eri dike indicate kore na? Orthat, the
women in mid-class families are still neglected? Tahole, byaparta shudu
shashuDi-r-i hobe keno?

Generalisaion dekhte pelen er modhye-o?

Tahole ke ke ei thread er target? Is the issue why the in-law's as a
whole are against the new bride? Or, why there is a tension between a
new bride and the husband's family? Or, why girls as such neglected?

Then why the header is so?

Thanks:

Dadu

[Amitabha Lahiri]

rajib doogar wrote:

>kichu adhyatmik ba ashaheen romanchokari goccher lokei kintu

hopeless romantic? kemon jeno shonachchhe | :-( ekkale
`swapnobilashi' chaalu chhilo | ekhon ki keu ar byabohar
koren na? amar `du'shahoshi bishwopremik' kathatao kharap
laage na | swapno dekhar shahosh to shakoler thaake na |

Amitabha
--
Amitabha Lahiri MAPS University of Sussex A.La...@central.susx.ac.uk
No one else is responsible for what I say and vice versa.
Today it's the Bengalis, tomorrow it will be you.

[Srabani Banerjee]

Dadu writes:

>Srabani likhechhen (jNara amake Dadu-babu bolben, tNader ami difinitely
>-Debi likhbo):
>>
>> Shyam Chakraborty writes:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> >setai to holo kotha! Ami kono-o Mohilar somalochona kore probleme jete
>> >chai na, kintu keno tini mene nichchhen, eta bola besh mushkil! Amar
>> >dharona, kortrityo korar ichchhe aarki.
>> -----------------------------
>> Bujhlam na.
>
>To make myself clear, aapnara thik ke ki poribesh (ja nischoi aapnader
>dristi vongi-r opor influence korechhe) theke esechhen, amar ehkono-o
>porjonto clear dharona holo na.

Sheta to shobar khetre-i projojyo - but that does not necessarily have a
bearing on what is being discussed.

>Prothom theke amar mone hoechhe, eta shashuDi-r hate bodhu nirjaton
>(psychologically and in some cases, physically as well) prosonge (other
>wise the header is so?).

The header is so because the person who started the topic chose it. It does
not necessarily reflect the opinion of all the people who have responded to
it.

>Amar dharona, apnara sobai-i shashuDi-der
>(nijer na holeo, onyo karur) khub kachhe theke dekhechhen. 33% of women
>are rightfully shashuDi-s. (explanation: taking life expectancy of 75
>years, by the age of 50, a lady should have a boy of at least 25, i.e.
>marriagable age. So (75-50)/75 is 33%).
>
>Now, taking granted, praay aapnar-i moton ek jon mohila will get married
>to your brother, right? Do you expect trouble between her and your
>mother? Possibly no. Reversibly, you as a woman, will be getting married
>to some family who might have a daughter very similar to you, right? So,
>does she expect trouble between you and her mother, and incense it? What
>do you think?

I think that we can leave our personal experiences out of this.
When we talk about something, it does not necessarily mean that we have
faced it in life. Our personal experiences do tend to colour our opinions -
but we can, at least, strive to be objective. Relations between some women
I know, and their in-laws would have me believe that everything's hunky-dory
on this earth - but that's obviously not true.

>All of you are talking of DB. Perhaps all of you know, it was not a
>single day incidence. It was a long time since she had to fight against
>odds. Did her own parental family help her much? Why it could happen
>then? other wise it would not have culminated there. Is it, women (sp.
>in Calcutta) still feel insecure in their own parental family?

That is certainly a major problem. Why would a woman stay in
a severely dysfunctional marriage, risking well-being and life, if
she had another place to turn to? And then again, you have the pressures
of an oppressively judgmental society - a society where silently bearing
it all has always been the hallmark of a `good' wife.

Now, to come back to my initial problem - when I asked you why a
certain person (economically independent and capable) accepted the rather
unfair burdens imposed by her in-laws, you replied that in your perceptions,
it was `kortrittwo korar ichchhe...' This is what I did not understand. I
still don't.

>> >> >Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen.
>> >>
>> >> Na hole bhalo hoto?
>> >
>> >Aar hothat ki karon ghotlo je bou ra aager dine poDe roechhe(n)?
>>
>> Eta-o na.
>
>I meant, there is always a psychological (I only mean in simpler senses;
>no Freud associated)

When has psychology been `simple'? But I digress...

>tension between newly married families.

Was that `families' a slip? Or do you admit that when women in our society
marry, they marry families rather than individuals?

>That's
>simply can't be rectfied if the involvement of rest of family doesn't
>reduce to zero.
>
>To my understanding, question is how to reduce this to 'reasonable'
>level. I prsonally think in most of today's families, this takes a way
>of expressing it, which is congenial. This tension is getting more
>prominent now a days, when the 'bou' is a bit more emancipated.
>
>Now, if a 'bou' does want to solve these issues by sword, then, I'd say,
>she is staying in the mideaval age.

But how can you conclude that `emancipated' women want to do that? Because
that is what you did in your last posting, didn't you.

>I just wanted to mean so.
>
>
>> >> Bodhu
>> >> >nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!
>> >>
>> >> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
>> >> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.
>> >
>> >Tahole aapnader raag shudhu ShashuDi-der oporei keno?
>>
>> Abar generalisation. Amar lekha poDe apnar kothay monet holo je amar
>> `raag shudhu ShashuDi-der oporei', sheta ektu janaben?

>Generalisation kothai dekhlen Madam?

`aapnader raag shudhu.....' lekhata-te. Chhilo na?
--------

>When you talk of DB, a number of socio-economic factors come forward.
>Otherwise, DB is a singular case. Contextually, I have seen, one my very
>close friend's sister burnt her self to death. There was tension; but I
>know, she didn't get enough support from her parental family. This is
>not, repeat not, a singular case. Tahole, ki byaparta, modhyo bityo
>family-r ekta general dark side-eri dike indicate kore na? Orthat, the
>women in mid-class families are still neglected? Tahole, byaparta shudu
>shashuDi-r-i hobe keno?

Hobe na to. Ami kothay bolechhi je hobe? Ja bolini tai jor kore boliye
neben naki?

>Generalisaion dekhte pelen er modhye-o?

Na, kintu apni je khub unfairly amar mukhe kotha gNuje dichchhen sheta
dekhte pachchhi.

>Tahole ke ke ei thread er target? Is the issue why the in-law's as a
>whole are against the new bride? Or, why there is a tension between a
>new bride and the husband's family? Or, why girls as such neglected?
>
>Then why the header is so?

Ami janina, ami uttor diechhi matro - tao apnar lekha-r. Ek-i proshno
ami-o apnake korte pari.

Srabani

[Shyam]

sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> In article <320D18...@Finland.fi>, Dadu <da...@Finland.fi> wrote:
> >Sharmila likhechhen:
> >
> >> Aare ki mushkil, kortritto raakhte ke baron koreche? Kintu tar aykta
> >> sheema-porisheema bole kichu nei? Kortritter dohai diye jodi
> >> durbyabohaar hoi, sheta to thik noi, she sthan-kaal-paatro je ba jai
> >> hok.
> >
> >You are right; anything beyond a certain limit in problematic.
> >Kharaap/bhalo jaa-i hok, sob kichhur ekta limit thaka chai.
>
> I completely disagree with both Dadu and with Sharmila.
>
> It is not merely that "anything beyond a certain point" is problematic.
> There are many things in the world whose very existence is problematic,
> no matter whether they cross any "limit" or not. For example, racism,
> sexism and oppression are problematic no matter in what minute doses
> they appear. They have to be fought hard and fought at all levels.

These are simply nice talks! We have been hearing them in Bengal
politics for a long time! Nothing changed though!

You are forgetting a simple thing: no evil can be completely driven out-
that's a part of the human nature. You are talking of 'Racism' sexism
etc? Can you have an anihilation gun for them?

Whenever there are more than one claimer of a resource, there is a
competetion, and there is/are judges who are human. And no human being
can be completely free of any bias. So, there will be favouritism,
whichever be the form, and there will be unfair treatment. Your ideas
will lead to "huma-puters" fundamentally.

I personally believe that, you can not eliminate favouritism completely
(if it is desirable, that's a separate question).

> One such problematic thing is autocratic exercise of power and domination.
> (Which I guess is what Sharmila meant by "kortritwo"), This is problematic,
> period! It is NOT acceptable even when carried out within limits. Recall
> that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

This is again completely against human nature, I believe it need not be
illustrated; it goes then limitless arguments.

Communism exists only in Calcutta (we know that) and in history (most of
us yet to understand that).

> My solution to the problem: the wife, the husband, the in-laws (on either
> spouse's side) and whoever else wishes to be part of the extended family,
> must form a co-operative. The co-operative should be based on democratic
> decision-making by majority vote. The husband, the wife, the in-law(s)
> and whoever wlse is forming the extended family, should operate by the
> one-person, one-vote principle whenever decsions have to be taken. A
> domination-based arrangement, one based on absolute kortritwo, is simply
> not needed!

the only thing which works is market economy; and then also some body
(ego, vanity or even sentiments will be hurt). A family is always a
co-operative; but the moment even a commercial cooperative is declared
so, it tends to tumble down.

[rajib doogar]

Amitabha Lahiri (mp...@central.susx.ac.uk) wrote:

: hopeless romantic? kemon jeno shonachchhe | :-( ekkale

: `swapnobilashi' chaalu chhilo | ekhon ki keu ar byabohar
: koren na? amar `du'shahoshi bishwopremik' kathatao kharap
: laage na | swapno dekhar shahosh to shakoler thaake na |
:
: Amitabha

ekkebar think bolecchen, amar lekhata ektu khato-length'a poDecche.
(accha, khaTo-length'er banglaTa ki? jamon "khato-length-er bol.")
duToi bichokkhonn hoyecche. "asha..rom.." kamon khoTkhoTe lagcchilo,
kintu swapnobilshi mathay ashe ni. ekhettre, oboshyo "dushahoshi
bishwopremik"Ta bhishon bhabei upojukto mone hocche, sheTai choyon
korlam ebong "ashaheen romanchokari"'r poriborte, "dushshahoshi
bishwopremik" likhlam bole ghonshona korcchi. dhonyobad.

rajib

[Dadu]

Shubu Mukherjee wrote:
>
> >>>>> In article <4uctiq$m...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (Srabani Banerjee) writes:
>

> >> Bodhu nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!
>

> SB> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
> SB> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.
>

Prosongoto: ekhon kolkata-e nitjatito swami songho hoechhe (no joke!) ta
to nischoi janen? To be ekhonkar poto bhumi te keno eta hobe na je,

"let's reduce family tension"?

Ebong, tate taan lagale dekhben onek kichhu-i berie aaschhe.

> ...
>
> SB> Right, kintu she'rom dekhlei amra shegulo-ke exception bole katiye
> SB> diye thaki.
>
> ...
>
> SB> Apni ekta anecdote shonale ami to doshta shonate pari - tai diye ki proman
> SB> hoy Sir?

Anecdote ta-r uddeshyo chhilo, to indicate, how tensions are modified in
recent families; not that, how tensions are stopped completely!

Dadu

[Dadu]

Srabani wrote:

> >> Shyam Chakraborty writes:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> >setai to holo kotha! Ami kono-o Mohilar somalochona kore probleme jete
> >> >chai na, kintu keno tini mene nichchhen, eta bola besh mushkil! Amar
> >> >dharona, kortrityo korar ichchhe aarki.
> >> -----------------------------
> >> Bujhlam na.

Simple. I wanted to indicate towards the trend that, women inherently
tries to dominate either by default, (as shashuDi-s), or slowly by
gaining possession. Probably all of you have noticed it, and at least,
some part of it is taken for granted in most of the people's discussions
(Re: Shashuri-der aashol byaparta ki bolunto?)

....

> Sheta to shobar khetre-i projojyo - but that does not necessarily have a
> bearing on what is being discussed.

Ami bolte chaichhi je, sobai shashuDi (ebong keo keo nonodini-der-o)
dosh dhorchhen keno? Keu ekjon age indicate korechhilen je, ei tinte
phase-i (shashuDi-nonidini-bou) ekjon mohila-r bibhinno rup. Then, why
the ladies in this group are so confused about it? Isn't it natural that
they know it better?

Amar interest ta ei je, er theke ami kichhu shikhe nebo jate problem
sumlate subidhe hoi.....

>
> >Prothom theke amar mone hoechhe, eta shashuDi-r hate bodhu nirjaton
> >(psychologically and in some cases, physically as well) prosonge (other
> >wise the header is so?).
>
> The header is so because the person who started the topic chose it. It does
> not necessarily reflect the opinion of all the people who have responded to
> it.

But, I didn't see much reactions opposing it either!

>
> >Amar dharona, apnara sobai-i shashuDi-der

> >(nijer na holeo, onyo karur) khub kachhe theke dekhechhen. .....

> >
> >Now, taking granted, praay aapnar-i moton ek jon mohila will get married

> >to your brother, right? Do you expect trouble ....

> ............ What

> >do you think?
>
> I think that we can leave our personal experiences out of this.
> When we talk about something, it does not necessarily mean that we have
> faced it in life.

All the above you's are impersonal 'you'-s. Pl. don't think I've
indicated towards any body personal.

Now, allmost all of you (sp. the ladies) indicate towards a systematic
oppression towards woman by another woman (presumably of an older age).
The idea is to understand the mechanism of it. But most of the time, It
seems to me, people sp. the ladies here (who are presumably
non-shashuDis) are without exception against the group of older women
(generically called shashuDi-s).

How to think about the same woman as mothers (some body's shashuDi must
be some body else's mother!). Or is there is a polarisation, that some
women have male child and rest female, so that shashuDi-s of bou-s are
not mothers of women as well?

> >All of you are talking of DB. Perhaps all of you know, it was not a
> >single day incidence. It was a long time since she had to fight against
> >odds. Did her own parental family help her much? Why it could happen
> >then? other wise it would not have culminated there. Is it, women (sp.
> >in Calcutta) still feel insecure in their own parental family?
>
> That is certainly a major problem. Why would a woman stay in
> a severely dysfunctional marriage, risking well-being and life, if
> she had another place to turn to?

So why none in this group talks about insecurity of a woman in her own
parental home? This is then as big a problem as a 'killer' shashuDi!

....And then again, you have the pressures

> of an oppressively judgmental society - a society where silently bearing
> it all has always been the hallmark of a `good' wife.

It sounds very much pother panchali stories.

Am I talking to people who are well connected to w.Bengal- Bengalee
society? I'm afraid nothing like that exist now a days. I don't believe,
scattered incidences don't happen (e.g. DB) but the fault is equally on
both sides (sp. families).

>
> Now, to come back to my initial problem - when I asked you why a
> certain person (economically independent and capable) accepted the rather
> unfair burdens imposed by her in-laws, you replied that in your perceptions,
> it was `kortrittwo korar ichchhe...' This is what I did not understand. I
> still don't.

I replied it on top. I could elaborate, if needed.

> >> >> >Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen.
> >> >>
> >> >> Na hole bhalo hoto?
> >> >
> >> >Aar hothat ki karon ghotlo je bou ra aager dine poDe roechhe(n)?
> >>
> >> Eta-o na.
> >
> >I meant, there is always a psychological (I only mean in simpler senses;
> >no Freud associated)
>
> When has psychology been `simple'? But I digress...

For simpler people like me!

>
> >tension between newly married families.
>
> Was that `families' a slip? Or do you admit that when women in our society
> marry, they marry families rather than individuals?

NO, it wasn't a slip. But did you notice the rest part (you quoted it
below)?

> >That's
> >simply can't be rectfied if the involvement of rest of family doesn't
> >reduce to zero.

> >Now, if a 'bou' does want to solve these issues by sword, then, I'd say,

> >she is staying in the mideaval age.
>
> But how can you conclude that `emancipated' women want to do that? Because
> that is what you did in your last posting, didn't you.

The way people (ladies) reacted to my anecdote, it seemed to me!

> >Generalisation kothai dekhlen Madam?
>
> `aapnader raag shudhu.....' lekhata-te. Chhilo na?
> --------

Ami bodh hoi ektu mishiye felechhi- aapnar ki raag nonodi-raibaghini-der
oporeo?

....... Orthat, the

> >women in mid-class families are still neglected? Tahole, byaparta shudu
> >shashuDi-r-i hobe keno?
>
> Hobe na to. Ami kothay bolechhi je hobe? Ja bolini tai jor kore boliye
> neben naki?

Eki, aami aapnar opor jor korte jabo keno?

> >Generalisaion dekhte pelen er modhye-o?
>
> Na, kintu apni je khub unfairly amar mukhe kotha gNuje dichchhen sheta
> dekhte pachchhi.

Aare! ami to aapnar motamot-tai jaante chaichhi!

>
> >Tahole ke ke ei thread er target? Is the issue why the in-law's as a
> >whole are against the new bride? Or, why there is a tension between a
> >new bride and the husband's family? Or, why girls as such neglected?
> >
> >Then why the header is so?
>
> Ami janina, ami uttor diechhi matro - tao apnar lekha-r. Ek-i proshno
> ami-o apnake korte pari.

Yep, madam, ei ek jaaegaye, 'Ladies first' cholbe na. Proshno ta aami-i
korechhi prothom; tobe proshno ta shudhu aapnakei noi- sobaikei!

THANX

[Debashis Bhattacharya]

BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (Srabani Banerjee) wrote:
>Debajyoti Chowdhury writes:
>
>
>>I note with deep consternation that the children, not to say the infants,
>>have been left out of this list. As they constitute the abused class most
>>often, a cooperative where all children are not full and equal members is
>>inherently flawed.
>

.. deleted ...

I have differed with many netters in the past on this issue, and I guess its
time to differ again. Why are children the abused class most often? Before you
talk so casually about child abuse, you need to define exactly what constitutes
child abuse --- otherwise, its a jolly trip down the guilt lane, which may be
fashionable, but is extremely irresponsible and dangerous in reality, and is a
major cause of many (if not most) social problems in western societies today
(IMHO).

As for children being full members, of course, they are. As for children being
equal members, of course they are not, and never will be! They are not grown up
enough to be equal members. Otherwise, they would not be called "CHILDREN"!

>
>
>>In the society of the future children will acquire
>>equal decision making rights.
>
>From what age?

Now, that's a thought! The children do not know much --- since they have not
had the time to learn or experience much --- but will make decisions at the
same level as everybody else. So, a 2-year old girl will tell me "I want to
burn a house down", and since she will have the same decision making right as I
will, I will have to count her wish as "one vote in favor of burning a house
down!" That's an idea!

I wonder why there are so many people on SCB who somehow seem to be suffering
from a guilt-ridden conscience about how children are treated. Children are,
after all, CHILDREN. As they learn about the world, its ways, its hardships,
its pitfalls, its rewards, what works, what does not, they "GROW UP INTO
ADULTS". That is the most natural way a society should work. Until they "GROW
UP", they are "NOT ADULTS", and hence, should not, cannot be, and must not be
treated like adults.

That used to be the case in all societies, eastern and western. IMHO,
maintaining this distinction is a RESPONSIBILITY and PREREQUISITE of any viable
society. Somewhere along the line, over the past 50 years, western societies
seem to have deviated from this very basic requirement. Today, the US society
has perhaps the most number of procedures in place to interfere in family
matters, and in matters between an adult and a child that simply are none of
the govt.'s business!(Please do not cry yourself hoarse over "child abuse",
since you know, and I know, that I'm not talking about child abuse, which is
indeed a govt. matter, but I am talking about overall adult-child relationship,
which is a societal business, and by-and-large, not a govt. business).

While other European societies may be somewhat different from USA, I get the
distinct impression that all of these societies are being too busy trying to
avoid the responsibility of teaching their children some basic values, of
helping them grow up with certain ground rules about what is right and what is
wrong, and cloaking this irresponsibility in the name of "children's rights"!

Reading SCB, it appears that many Bengalis have now joined that camp, and are
mindlessly proposing "treat children like adults", without really thinking
through the consequences. Have we, as a group, finally reached that low a point
in our culture, that we are now blindly copying what is clearly irresponsible,
from western cultures, and cannot even think for ourselves any more?

.. deleted ...

>
>Srabani

Debashis Bhattacharya.

[Srabani Banerjee]

Dadu writes:

>> >> >setai to holo kotha! Ami kono-o Mohilar somalochona kore probleme jete
>> >> >chai na, kintu keno tini mene nichchhen, eta bola besh mushkil! Amar
>> >> >dharona, kortrityo korar ichchhe aarki.
>> >> -----------------------------
>> >> Bujhlam na.
>
>Simple. I wanted to indicate towards the trend that, women inherently
>tries to dominate

They do??? And what do you base this observation on? I had asked you
the same question once before. You chose to ignore it - will you be
doing the same thing again?

>either by default, (as shashuDi-s), or slowly by
>gaining possession. Probably all of you have noticed it, and at least,
>some part of it is taken for granted in most of the people's discussions
>(Re: Shashuri-der aashol byaparta ki bolunto?)

You mean that a newly-married woman (in this case, your cousin) accepts
all sorts of burdens in the hope that one day she will be a dominator?
HNashbo?

>....
>
>> Sheta to shobar khetre-i projojyo - but that does not necessarily have a
>> bearing on what is being discussed.
>
>Ami bolte chaichhi je, sobai shashuDi (ebong keo keo nonodini-der-o)
>dosh dhorchhen keno? Keu ekjon age indicate korechhilen je, ei tinte
>phase-i (shashuDi-nonidini-bou) ekjon mohila-r bibhinno rup. Then, why
>the ladies in this group are so confused about it?

`The ladies in this group' meaning Sharmila Mukherjee, Indrani DasGupta
and yours truly? Instead of making vague generalisations, why don't you
tell us exactly where we are confused? With quotes, perhaps? You can start
with me. I would be relieved to be free from my confusions.

>Isn't it natural that
>they know it better?
>
>Amar interest ta ei je, er theke ami kichhu shikhe nebo jate problem
>sumlate subidhe hoi.....
>
>
>>
>> >Prothom theke amar mone hoechhe, eta shashuDi-r hate bodhu nirjaton
>> >(psychologically and in some cases, physically as well) prosonge (other
>> >wise the header is so?).
>>
>> The header is so because the person who started the topic chose it. It does
>> not necessarily reflect the opinion of all the people who have responded to
>> it.
>
>But, I didn't see much reactions opposing it either!

And that is enough justification to believe that nobody has problems with it?
Besides, what's in a header, anyway? This particular one is a question -
why are you reading a pre-conceived bias into it?
Know what, I could keep harping on your describing one particular shashuri
as `topa kul hoye ghure beDachchhen' and shashuri-s in general as `chalak
hoye gyachhen' - they do reflect some sort of a bias, too.

>> >Amar dharona, apnara sobai-i shashuDi-der
>> >(nijer na holeo, onyo karur) khub kachhe theke dekhechhen. .....
>> >
>> >Now, taking granted, praay aapnar-i moton ek jon mohila will get married
>> >to your brother, right? Do you expect trouble ....
>
>> ............ What
>> >do you think?
>>
>> I think that we can leave our personal experiences out of this.
>> When we talk about something, it does not necessarily mean that we have
>> faced it in life.
>
>All the above you's are impersonal 'you'-s. Pl. don't think I've
>indicated towards any body personal.

Fine.

>Now, allmost all of you (sp. the ladies) indicate towards a systematic
>oppression towards woman by another woman (presumably of an older age).
>The idea is to understand the mechanism of it. But most of the time, It
>seems to me, people sp. the ladies here (who are presumably
>non-shashuDis) are without exception against the group of older women
>(generically called shashuDi-s).

Quotes? Tell me where the the ladies here are `without exception' against
shashuris.

>How to think about the same woman as mothers (some body's shashuDi must
>be some body else's mother!). Or is there is a polarisation, that some
>women have male child and rest female, so that shashuDi-s of bou-s are
>not mothers of women as well?

Irrelevant tripe.

>> >All of you are talking of DB. Perhaps all of you know, it was not a
>> >single day incidence. It was a long time since she had to fight against
>> >odds. Did her own parental family help her much? Why it could happen
>> >then? other wise it would not have culminated there. Is it, women (sp.
>> >in Calcutta) still feel insecure in their own parental family?
>>
>> That is certainly a major problem. Why would a woman stay in
>> a severely dysfunctional marriage, risking well-being and life, if
>> she had another place to turn to?
>
>So why none in this group talks about insecurity of a woman in her own
>parental home? This is then as big a problem as a 'killer' shashuDi!

Sure, so talk about it.

> ....And then again, you have the pressures
>> of an oppressively judgmental society - a society where silently bearing
>> it all has always been the hallmark of a `good' wife.
>
>It sounds very much pother panchali stories.

Perhaps, but that doesn't make it necessarily untrue.

>Am I talking to people who are well connected to w.Bengal- Bengalee
>society?

I was actually going to ask you the same.

I'm afraid nothing like that exist now a days. I don't believe,
>scattered incidences don't happen (e.g. DB) but the fault is equally on
>both sides (sp. families).

Sure. They all constitute the same society. I have never said the pressures
come only from the in-laws. They come from everywhere. Even you seem to be
saying that - but if I do it becomes `pother panchali stories'

>>
>> Now, to come back to my initial problem - when I asked you why a
>> certain person (economically independent and capable) accepted the rather
>> unfair burdens imposed by her in-laws, you replied that in your perceptions,
>> it was `kortrittwo korar ichchhe...' This is what I did not understand. I
>> still don't.
>
>I replied it on top. I could elaborate, if needed.

No, thank you. I have a feeling that it would confuse me even more.

[...]

>> >Now, if a 'bou' does want to solve these issues by sword, then, I'd say,
>> >she is staying in the mideaval age.
>>
>> But how can you conclude that `emancipated' women want to do that? Because
>> that is what you did in your last posting, didn't you.
>
>The way people (ladies) reacted to my anecdote, it seemed to me!

Correct me if I am wrong but by `people(ladies)' do you mean Sharmila
Mukherjee and me? I don't remeber anyone else reacting to your anecdote.
Now, Sharmila-di said that your anecdote sounded to her like `nirjaton' -
something with which, if I remember correctly, you agreed somewhat.
I said that one anecdote did not prove much.

Now,
1. Why did these reactions make you think that we want to solve issues
`by sword'?

2. Even if for reasons known best to you, you somehow concluded that we
(the ladies in this group) would rather be sword-bearing harridans or
something, how could you extrapolate it to the general `bou'?

>> >Generalisation kothai dekhlen Madam?
>>
>> `aapnader raag shudhu.....' lekhata-te. Chhilo na?
>> --------
>
>Ami bodh hoi ektu mishiye felechhi- aapnar ki raag nonodi-raibaghini-der
>oporeo?

I think you are being deliberately obtuse. You have not yet shown me which
of my remarks could be considered as proof of my `raag' against `shashuris'.
And, yet, you not only keep harping on `aapnader raag....', you also keep
making stupid insinuations. This is not doing your credibility any good.
If you want to discuss, to argue, or even to fight, you could, at least,
try being honest. Admit that you made a mistake when you included me (and
you can also justify why you included the others) in your list of shashuri-
bashers.

> ....... Orthat, the
>> >women in mid-class families are still neglected? Tahole, byaparta shudu
>> >shashuDi-r-i hobe keno?
>>
>> Hobe na to. Ami kothay bolechhi je hobe? Ja bolini tai jor kore boliye
>> neben naki?
>
>Eki, aami aapnar opor jor korte jabo keno?

Janina, tobe ami kothay o'rom kotha bolechhi sheta kintu bollen na.

>> >Generalisaion dekhte pelen er modhye-o?
>>
>> Na, kintu apni je khub unfairly amar mukhe kotha gNuje dichchhen sheta
>> dekhte pachchhi.
>
>Aare! ami to aapnar motamot-tai jaante chaichhi!

Tai?

[...]

>> >Then why the header is so?
>>
>> Ami janina, ami uttor diechhi matro - tao apnar lekha-r. Ek-i proshno
>> ami-o apnake korte pari.
>
>Yep, madam, ei ek jaaegaye, 'Ladies first' cholbe na. Proshno ta aami-i
>korechhi prothom; tobe proshno ta shudhu aapnakei noi- sobaikei!

Ami header-ta likhini, tai oi byapare apnar moton amar-o kono dwaitto
nei. Ami ja likhechhi tai niye amake bolun, uttor deoar cheshta korbo.

I tried my best to keep this to the point - its very difficult,
given your inclination to fly off on a tangent. I would be grateful if you
would reciprocate.

Thank you,
Srabani

[Samir Bhattacharya]

Sayan wrote:
...
minse-gulo bhashabyabohar shikhe
>gechhe, ja kina onyanyo pranee-guli pare na |.. manush

>ekTi porajoibik storet unneeto hoye gechhen | onyanyo janoar kamRa-kamRi

^^^^^^
>kore moret bole manush-keo ta kortei hobet emon kono badhyobadhokota nei
^^^^^ ^^^^^
...
manush itihas toiree koret,
^^^^^

>eTa ekTi hekko probhed bolet amar dharona | jemon dhorun amar kukur

^^^^^
.. batela-Ti amar otyonto

>prokhor doorodrishTisomponno bole monet hoyechhe |

^^^^^

SCB'r jonmabodhi, aashole tar aage thekei ami 'gobet' niye
gobeshona korchhi. Bishesh kore tader distribution among -
Thik dhorechhen - purush, mohila, shashuDi, bou, ghor-jamai,
na-ghor-jamai, hobu-jamai ityadi ityadi. Kaj onekta egiyechhe.
Idaning data pachhi bistor, ar, thanks to computer, nana-rokomer
correlation paachhi. Tamon tamon char phel-le hoi hoi kore
gobet-ra ak-jaigai, e.g. net-space-e, joDo hon. Tokhon tNader
achar-byabohar lokkho
kori. Ebare akta self-consistent equation solve korte parlei
kella phote hoye jabe. Gobetotwo'r sworup jene phelbo. Kintu
solution-ta hater kaachhe elei ami
nijeke hariye phelchhi. Boojum-er moton.

Kintu somaj-bigyan niye jehetu kaj, monograph-ta agei lekha
hoye gachhe. "Gobet Niye Gobeshona" -- akta multi-media version-o
berobe. Tar jingle-tao ("Amra shobai raja .." gan-tar influence achhe
tar opor) toiri, ebong, mon diye shunun... *registered* to
protect IPR.

Atokkhone kajer kothay asha galo. "storet", "bolet", "koret",
"monet", "moret" obdi chup kore chhilum. Kintu "hobet" theke
amar gobet amon kichhu dur noy! Gobet-er uchcharon patented
(bishwas na hole khNoj kore dekhun). Ota'r dike ar egoben
na -- jodina kokiler chiThi pete, ar adalote hajir hote bhalo
lage.

Amar kotha gulo shonar jonye dhonyobad. Cha cholbe? Na hole,
ektu sorbet, please.

:) :)
-Samir

[Indranil DasGupta]

Arindam Banerjee (a.ban...@trl.oz.au) wrote:

: Humay toe loot liya hai milkay husnwaloN nay

: Goray-goray galoN nay, kalay-kalay baloN nay

Are Paglaa. Tobe eta black and white jug-er black and white gaan. Ajkaal
bole: Bachna ay hasinNo, lo mNay aa gayaaaaaaahh...

IDG.

[Dadu]

Indrani wrote:
>
> Srabani Banerjee wrote:
>
> > Amar to monet hoy problem-ta ekhanei - shashuDi-bou-er shomporkota ekta
> > duto anecdote-er bhittite-i stereotype kore pheli.
>
> Ekta-duto bolchhish ki re! Tachhada, ei shuto-ta-i to tai
> (stereotyping) amaar mon-e hoy. Kharap ki bhalo bolchhina. Mot-er upor
> holo, stereotyping byaparta amaader ato ga-showa hoye gyachhe je
> apna-apni hoye jaye, ebong hole chokhe pray poDe-ina.

How do oyu want to go out of it? Allmost every thing possible has been
exemplified by now.

...del...

> Aar shashuri-jamai? Sheta to hoyechhe? Tahole maane ki ei je,
> shashuri-ra tNaader chhele ba meyeder dampottyo-jibon-e besh ekti
> boDo-rokom-er bhumika nite baddhyo hochchhen? Kano?

That's a good point. I wish to hear a bit more in this direction!

> > >Aashol bapyar ta holo, shashuDi-ra aajkal onek chalak hoe gechhen.
> >
> > Na hole bhalo hoto?
>

> Kobe onara 'boka' chhilen taar udahoron jodi shyam-babu ektu dite parten
> bhalo hoto...

Actually, you are forgetting a point; shashuDi-ra konoo alada breed non.
Very simple; all the ladies in this discussion, are hoping to be
ShashuDi-s some time in their life. The transformation is Even, the
transformation is less than silk worm to moth!

How they'd behave then? In the role model of ShashuDi-s?

..del...

> JoD-jaD kore meye-der (ba Sharmila-di-r boktobbye: chheleder-o ...and,
> perhaps, she is right) mukh bondho kora niye er aage bodhoy ei ng-te-i
> du-akta kotha uthhechhilo.

That's right, din bodle gechhe.

Thanx

[Dadu]

Replying to both Shubu and Sayan:

Shubu wrote:

> >> somuuho durbishoho. Jibone aar baki roilo ta ki?
>
> SM> :-).....jibon to tokhon shuru hobe, ki bolen?
>
> Apnader ki obbhigyota jani na, kintu nijer ma ebong amar shorgiyo
> thakuma-r moddhe erokom relation dekhechhilam. The same exists with
> my sister-in-law and mother.

that's exactly I wanted to point out; what is the fundamental basis of
this discussion? Isn't any body seen a sea change of mentality in
Bengali families? Why nobody writes about it?

sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> In article <320BBE...@Finland.fi>, Dadu <da...@Finland.fi> wrote:
> >Sharmila debi likhechhen:
> >
> >> Aar hote paare je kono kono khetre ultota dyakha jai, kintu tai boley
> >> shashurider protaap non-existant etai ba aapni bolen ki bhaabe?
> >
> >Hothat shashuDi-der complete nokho-donto-heen kore dite chaichhen keno?
> >seta ki banchhoniyo?
>
> Part of the problem lies in the hidden assumption being made here
> that all social relationships need to be based on domination. This
> need not be so (although society indoctrinates us that it is so).

Ummm.. Too drastic but perhaps true! It's natural, there is a pwoer
game in a family also. It depends on psychological, social and economic
factors. Some body has to dominate on some body else, other wise, be
dominated. Isn't this recurrs in human society as a stable equilibrium?

[Shubu Mukherjee]

>>>>> In article <4ul9bh$m...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (Srabani Banerjee) writes:

SB> Shubu Mukherjee writes:

>>>> Bodhu nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!

SB> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
SB> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.

>> ...

SB> Right, kintu she'rom dekhlei amra shegulo-ke exception bole katiye
SB> diye thaki.
>> ...

SB> Apni ekta anecdote shonale ami to doshta shonate pari - tai diye ki proman
SB> hoy Sir?

>> ...

>> Apnar nijer kotha-tei contradiction Srabani-debi!

SB> Do you understand the difference between a well-chronicled case and an
SB> anecdote?

Yes, but in this case, its still one case/anecdote. As you clearly
indicated earlier, exceptions do not set the rule.

SB> More importantly, do you realize that when I mentioned the
SB> DB case, it was to point out that generalisations about the out-datedness
SB> of `bodhu-nirjaton' should not be made?

Through one "well-chronicled" case? :-) You sound like those
non-Indians, who make a big deal about burning widows in modern from
the recent single case in Rajasthan!

[Srabani Banerjee]

Shubu Mukherjee writes:

>>>>> Bodhu nirjatan-ton ektu sekele bapyar!
>
>SB> Khub shekele bodhoy noy - Debjani Bonik-er case-ta khub purono noy -
>SB> tobe shekhane aboshyo shoshur ar shami-r besh ullekhjogyo bhumika chhilo.
>>> ...
>
>SB> Right, kintu she'rom dekhlei amra shegulo-ke exception bole katiye
>SB> diye thaki.
>>> ...
>
>SB> Apni ekta anecdote shonale ami to doshta shonate pari - tai diye ki proman
>SB> hoy Sir?
>>> ...
>
>>> Apnar nijer kotha-tei contradiction Srabani-debi!
>
>SB> Do you understand the difference between a well-chronicled case and an
>SB> anecdote?
>
>Yes, but in this case, its still one case/anecdote.
>
>As you clearly
>indicated earlier, exceptions do not set the rule.
>
>
>SB> More importantly, do you realize that when I mentioned the
>SB> DB case, it was to point out that generalisations about the out-datedness
>SB> of `bodhu-nirjaton' should not be made?
>
>Through one "well-chronicled" case? :-) You sound like those
>non-Indians, who make a big deal about burning widows in modern from
>the recent single case in Rajasthan!

No, my nitpicking dear, not through one "well-chronicled' case - when
I mentioned that case, I hoped that people would take it for what it was -
a case in point. I was wrong - I should have accounted for the likes of you.
If you think that my failure to mention all the other cases of dowry deaths
means that they do not exist, then I would suggest that you start looking
for other sources of information, besides SCB. If you need statistics, I'll
give them to you. Only I need more time - when I came to this country a year
back, I did not come armed with data to prove things to people who, somehow,
take pride in performing an ostrich act.

And, just to clear up something else - to me, even one Roop Kanwar case _is_
a `big deal' - almost as big a deal as a single Olympic bronze medal.

Srabani

[Shyam]

I don't feel comfortable to note my tendency of avoiding vital points.
I need to be a bit serious at least for once.
I was trying to look back some earlier posts; it seems that they
vanished.

Srabani Banerjee wrote:

>
> Dadu writes:

> >Simple. I wanted to indicate towards the trend that, women inherently
> >tries to dominate
>
> They do??? And what do you base this observation on? I had asked you

> the same question once before. You chose to ignore it ...

Wasn't the whole idea trickles from domination of one woman towards the
other?

You may have a bit different idea, but I'm still confused to understand
it; it'll be nice to make it clear.

...

>
> >either by default, (as shashuDi-s), or slowly by

> >gaining possession. ....

>
> You mean that a newly-married woman (in this case, your cousin) accepts
> all sorts of burdens in the hope that one day she will be a dominator?

or she is, at least she thinks so. Or may be she gets some kind of
pleasure to keep a joint family intact-, and being a key person of it,
even it costs her extra burden.

> HNashbo?

Ammó bhebe pai na!

> >> Sheta to shobar khetre-i projojyo - but that does not necessarily have a
> >> bearing on what is being discussed.
> >
> >Ami bolte chaichhi je, sobai shashuDi (ebong keo keo nonodini-der-o)
> >dosh dhorchhen keno? Keu ekjon age indicate korechhilen je, ei tinte
> >phase-i (shashuDi-nonidini-bou) ekjon mohila-r bibhinno rup. Then, why
> >the ladies in this group are so confused about it?
>
> `The ladies in this group' meaning Sharmila Mukherjee, Indrani DasGupta
> and yours truly?

The theme of this thread changed from the original one?

...Instead of making vague generalisations, why don't you

> tell us exactly where we are confused? With quotes, perhaps? You can start
> with me. I would be relieved to be free from my confusions.

Yep. Let's see. What was the begining of this topic? ShashuDi-der bodhu
nirjatan (mildly put, domination), right?

Did it change till now, except you conversation between you and me?

If so, then, let's get in to the new issue. If still the general
concensus holds that, there is particularly a tension between
shashuDi-bou (which is very stereo typical), I feel that's confusing.

There is a tension between every body in a relation. I tried to draw
attention towards the point that, a part of it may have to do with, when
the same person (son) needs to provide for (socially, psychologically
and perhaps economically also) two psychologically unrelated women of
different age and mentality. Till that time, there's no hunch of
'nirjatan'. It comes when all the factors are not balanced.

I tried to put this with some sort of joke, but probably, it didn't
catch the mood of the reader.

Secondarily, I'm almost sure, there is no shashuDi present in the net.
So, I'm just trying to defend them as a humble son of one of those would
be shashuDi's. The burden on me has been great-

...del....

here is some thing interesting; let's read the sequence of quotes:

> >> >Prothom theke amar mone hoechhe, eta shashuDi-r hate bodhu nirjaton
> >> >(psychologically and in some cases, physically as well) prosonge (other
> >> >wise the header is so?).
> >>
> >> The header is so because the person who started the topic chose it. It does
> >> not necessarily reflect the opinion of all the people who have responded to
> >> it.

Let's agree..

> >
> >But, I didn't see much reactions opposing it either!
>
> And that is enough justification to believe that nobody has problems with it?

Ummmmmm.....

Then what it leads to believe? Its a lesser evil, or completely
uncorrelated? I'm trying to attract your (plural) attention towards it;
probably partially successful!

> Besides, what's in a header, anyway? This particular one is a question -
> why are you reading a pre-conceived bias into it?

Let's change it; it is provoking my Bengali chivalry like a piece of red
cloth !

> Know what, I could keep harping on your describing one particular shashuri
> as `topa kul hoye ghure beDachchhen'

I subscribe fully to yor concerns. But, believe me (at least once) you
w'd agree fully if you see her. She knows my little joke towards her (by
hearsay), and retaliates with all possible ways.

.....and shashuri-s in general as `chalak

> hoye gyachhen' - they do reflect some sort of a bias, too.

Didn't you notice so? They are more physically fit, reads Ananda bazar,
goes for shopping, some drives car and even goes to manicure with their
daughter-in-law's! How do you interprete it?

You believe I'm 'biased' and unhappy to witness it?

..del....

> >All the above you's are impersonal 'you'-s. Pl. don't think I've
> >indicated towards any body personal.
>
> Fine.

thanks for kind consideration.

>
> >Now, allmost all of you (sp. the ladies) indicate towards a systematic
> >oppression towards woman by another woman (presumably of an older age).
> >The idea is to understand the mechanism of it.

you didn't disagree; I believe this is the issue I wanted to point out.
I don't know if it appeals to you, but you chose to pull a handgun
(hashed metafor!)!

...........But most of the time, It

> >seems to me, people sp. the ladies here (who are presumably
> >non-shashuDis) are without exception against the group of older women
> >(generically called shashuDi-s).
>
> Quotes? Tell me where the the ladies here are `without exception' against
> shashuris.

Are you out of it?

>
> >How to think about the same woman as mothers (some body's shashuDi must
> >be some body else's mother!). Or is there is a polarisation, that some
> >women have male child and rest female, so that shashuDi-s of bou-s are
> >not mothers of women as well?
>
> Irrelevant tripe.

youthinkitis?

>
> >> >All of you are talking of DB. Perhaps all of you know, it was not a

> >> >single day incidence ............... Is it, women (sp.

> >> >in Calcutta) still feel insecure in their own parental family?
> >>

> >> That is certainly a major problem. ......

> >
> >So why none in this group talks about insecurity of a woman in her own
> >parental home? This is then as big a problem as a 'killer' shashuDi!
>
> Sure, so talk about it.

Thanks to myself, I could draw attention towards a more relevent (at
least I think, you may disagree) problem!

But did any of you draw attention towards insecurity of women in general
(sp. in Bengali families)? At least I didn't remember, personally you
any time closer to it. You vaguely said though, 'ok, lets talk about
it!'. But didn't take it as seriously as my other words.

What appeals you more? Not some thing which you can't disagree to be a
bigger problem; but irrelevant issues put jokingly?

Do we need to be completely out of humour or, bash each other for
triffles of words?

>
> > ....And then again, you have the pressures
> >> of an oppressively judgmental society - a society where silently bearing
> >> it all has always been the hallmark of a `good' wife.
> >
> >It sounds very much pother panchali stories.
>
> Perhaps, but that doesn't make it necessarily untrue.

I begged to disagree with the undertone. In allmost all the cases of
trouble, a woman usually comes to an already troubled family, which has
grossly been ignored both by her, and her parents- whatever be the
reasons. Then as a new comer, she either takes it silently, or gets
bashed.

To my understanding, a girl needs to try to find out a decent family
(repeat, family, not only a groom) to get married. It is her (and her
parents, repeat parents) responsibility to understand the new family and
groom (not only sweet words) as much as possible, not only to see the
social status, economic conditions and interpersonal relationship.

And being a good wife, is the hallmark of a 'good' wife.

That's in today's context. If some body just gets married, and so many
girls does (as men also do), then, Khoda vorosha.

And that's a bit out dated, though still in fasion.

> >Am I talking to people who are well connected to w.Bengal- Bengalee
> >society?
>
> I was actually going to ask you the same.

Answer: I come from a family from Cal subberbs, both my grand fathers
provided us with 17 uncles and aunts. The next generation proceeded
almost same way.

> >> Now, to come back to my initial problem - when I asked you why a
> >> certain person (economically independent and capable) accepted the rather
> >> unfair burdens imposed by her in-laws, you replied that in your perceptions,
> >> it was `kortrittwo korar ichchhe...' This is what I did not understand. I
> >> still don't.

I replied it on top. (once again; you may like it this time!)

[...]

> Correct me if I am wrong but by `people(ladies)' do you mean Sharmila
> Mukherjee and me? I don't remeber anyone else reacting to your anecdote.

pl. shanto hon. The very simple word 'hkorgo hosto' had a bad
translation by the 'umble self-

> Now, Sharmila-di said that your anecdote sounded to her like `nirjaton' -
> something with which, if I remember correctly, you agreed somewhat.

Did I?

> I said that one anecdote did not prove much.

No.

Perhaps you're have a preconceived bias. While I recognised it as a
serious problem in earlier days, and also the fact that, there is a
tension, I referred to a general trend in change of mentality, and that,
things are changing.

Sorry, you totally misinterpreted my 'anecdote'; you probably
overlooked, I have a sweet feeling towards both the shashuDi and bou
(whom I referred to as topa kul, and ...etc..), not 'cause they have
tensions, but 'cause how they exchanged their positions.

> Now,
> 1. Why did these reactions make you think that we want to solve issues
> `by sword'?

I'd answer it after some time, if we are still in talking terms---

> 2. Even if for reasons known best to you, you somehow concluded that we
> (the ladies in this group) would rather be sword-bearing harridans or

To my imaginations, it was a bit glorious. I personally object your use
of this word, which takes off all colour!

What about sowrd bearing Amazons?

> something, how could you extrapolate it to the general `bou'?

I did it the other way round. Probably, some one else also wanted to
indicate, quite often, there is an a- prori assumption, there will be a
tension between shashuDi and bou. There will be, by and large.

The issue is, if it is well within tolerance. Most of the time it is.
Then how to deal with it.

...del....

>
> I think you are being deliberately obtuse. You have not yet shown me which
> of my remarks could be considered as proof of my `raag' against `shashuris'.

.....

> And, yet, you not only keep harping on `aapnader raag....', you also keep

> making stupid insinuations. ...

I've heard it before. But, you've noticed I mixed up different postors.
And as far as I remember, you are shouting at me all along (do you think
I really deserve this?) Probably, you could help by providing your
opinions afresh, so that I won't mix things up.

> ......This is not doing your credibility any good.

This goodness of mine! It's always at stake.

> If you want to discuss, to argue, or even to fight,

that I don't want, at least with you. Motoikyei amar prodhan procheshta.

> ....you could, at least,
> try being honest.

You're unnecessarily harsh to me! Even stern critics admit, I'm HONEST!

...... Admit that you made a mistake when you included me (and

> you can also justify why you included the others) in your list of shashuri-
> bashers.

I didn't say, it was a shashuDi basher's forum; But I noticed the
undertone (and I felt people are being polite to their won future) was
close to it.

> > ....... Orthat, the
> >> >women in mid-class families are still neglected? Tahole, byaparta shudu
> >> >shashuDi-r-i hobe keno?
> >>
> >> Hobe na to. Ami kothay bolechhi je hobe? Ja bolini tai jor kore boliye
> >> neben naki?
> >
> >Eki, aami aapnar opor jor korte jabo keno?
>
> Janina, tobe ami kothay o'rom kotha bolechhi sheta kintu bollen na.

I didn't notice that you joined here by reacting to my post. I mentioned
it IN CONTEXT to the undertone.

> [...]
>
> >> >Then why the header is so?

> >> > tobe proshno ta shudhu aapnakei noi- sobaikei!

> Ami header-ta likhini, tai oi byapare apnar moton amar-o kono dwaitto
> nei. Ami ja likhechhi tai niye amake bolun, uttor deoar cheshta korbo.

So, we could move to a new header which won't even falsely, alarm some
of the sons-of-shashuDi's-

We'll talk of some thing more relevant-

> ...... its very difficult,

> given your inclination to fly off on a tangent. I would be grateful if you
> would reciprocate.

My chivalry is never tangent- you're being cruel!!!

thanx

sHYAM

--
Shyam Sundar Chakraborty
Comm. Lab. HUT, Finland
Tel: 3580-4512350;
Fax: 3580-4512345/460224.

[Sayan Bhattacharyya]

Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>
>SB> More importantly, do you realize that when I mentioned the
>SB> DB case, it was to point out that generalisations about the out-datedness
>SB> of `bodhu-nirjaton' should not be made?
>
>Through one "well-chronicled" case? :-)

About six-eight months ago, Partha Banerjee posted a well-researched
article in alt.india.progressive and I think also in s.c.b. about
dowry deaths in India, which he presented at the Harvard conference
on dowry-related crimes.It may be possible to locate this article
through suitable usenet search engines.

As far as I know, all available statistics indicate that the number of
dowry deaths officially reported to the authorities is _increasing_ in
India, not decreasing with time.

This may have two explanations. (1) The actual number of dowry deaths
is increasing, OR (2) There is more consciousness about the issue and
so more deaths are being reported to the authorities than before.

In any case, it is not a situation to be proud of.

Why do so many people like to deny that a problem exists? We as a society
are not helped by living in denial, or by adopting an "ostrich-like"
attitude, as Srabani eloquently described it.

-Sayan.

[Sayan Bhattacharyya]

In article <321394...@hut.fi>, Shyam <Shyam.Ch...@hut.fi> wrote:
>>
>> You mean that a newly-married woman (in this case, your cousin) accepts
>> all sorts of burdens in the hope that one day she will be a dominator?
>
>or she is, at least she thinks so. Or may be she gets some kind of
>pleasure to keep a joint family intact-, and being a key person of it,
>even it costs her extra burden.

This may have more to do with the way women are socialized and indoctrinated
in a patriarchal society. In a patriarchal society like ours, women are
taught from childhood onwards that it is the woman's role to be a nurturer,
that for a woman to talk back even when she is imposed upon, is not "right",
and that a "good" woman is one who never protests. Since women are
indoctrinated with this crap and because society keeps reinforcing these
ideas with the help of role models all the time, most women end up believing
this crap and by simply conforming to this social ideal. It is not a fault
of the woman, it is a fault of society.

[Suparna]

In my opinion, one of the things women, working or not, increasingly
want is meaningful conversation,to connect. In traditional joint
families, the women of the housemay have been daggers drawn, but there
were certain bonds of emotional intimacy. Cooking, gossiping or
fighting, they were at least connecting.
Men and women often speak a different language and about different
things and such intimacy does not normally exist between them. Today's
women, home alone in an nuclear family, not only has just those four
walls for company,but perceives an additional one: an impenetrable wall
of silence coming up between her husband and her.
I think this is one benevolent aspect of Shashuris which must
not be forgotten.
Suparna

[Shubu Mukherjee]

>>>>> In article <4v0stb$n...@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, bhat...@engin.umich.edu (Sayan Bhattacharyya) writes:

SB> Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:

SB> Why do so many people like to deny that a problem exists? We as a society
SB> are not helped by living in denial, or by adopting an "ostrich-like"
SB> attitude, as Srabani eloquently described it.

And what if the problem is the fruit of an imaginative mind? Produce
the article you referred to and we can talk.

And mind it, its not always the absolute number that matters. Often
the percentage is more important. Many people (even in the US) have a
tendency to quote changes in whole numbers, where this number could
actually be too insignificant to even bother about.

[Shubu Mukherjee]

>>>>> In article <4utnem$j...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (Srabani Banerjee) writes:

SB> If you think that my failure to mention all the other cases of dowry deaths
SB> means that they do not exist, then I would suggest that you start looking
SB> for other sources of information, besides SCB. If you need statistics, I'll
SB> give them to you.

Please.

SB> And, just to clear up something else - to me, even one Roop Kanwar case _is_
SB> a `big deal' - almost as big a deal as a single Olympic bronze medal.

One case is indeed a big deal. But that doesn't warrant gross
generalizations as you and others seem to make.

[Rajiv Shukla]

In article <SHUBU.96A...@providence.cs.wisc.edu> sh...@cs.wisc.edu (Shubu Mukherjee) writes:
>
>SB> And, just to clear up something else - to me, even one Roop Kanwar case _is_
>SB> a `big deal' - almost as big a deal as a single Olympic bronze medal.

Roop Kanwar case is a very big deal, much bigger than any number of olympic
medals but I was just wondering why this sudden connection of Roop Kanwar
case with olympic medal, am I missing something?

Rajiv

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rajiv Shukla My opinions are mine.
ra...@ctt.bellcore.com I don't speak for my
Bell Communications Research employer.

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Shubu-babu likhechilen (onek din aagey oboshyo):

Apnader ki obbhigyota jani na, kintu nijer ma ebong amar shorgiyo
thakuma-r moddhe erokom relation dekhechhilam. The same exists with
my sister-in-law and mother.

While the responsibility lies with both shashuri ebong bou, aajkaalkar

onek meyerai shoshur bari-te probesh kor-e shashuri dojjal ei dhor-e
niye. Biyer agei bondhu-der finacee-der shashuri-ke galagal dit-e
shunechhi, although nijer hobu shashuri-r shonge bhalo kor-e alap-i
hoi ni eder.

-Shubu

Eta kintu aapnar ayk-pokkho kotha hoye gyalo, Shubu. Erokom nirorthok
bhoi aami shashurider-o pete dekhechi, bou ghor-e aashar aagei. Aamar
mone hoi er karon holo aykta preconceived dharona, jar jonyo dayie
shomajer nana ghotona, kichu chokhe dyakha, kichu kane shona; tai
kauke-i khub aykta dosh deowa jai na.

Sharmila

--
Dept. of Biochemistry
Room 376A

Ph:(713)798-8432

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Shyam-babu likhechilen:

[...]
>aamar mone hoechhilo, ekjon purush-er drishti vongi theke eta onek
>beshi important to understand what is the root cause of (primarily
>psychological) clash (if any) between maa-bou, ja songsharer shanti
>noshto kore?
>Amar ekhonoo mone hoi, ekjon mohila tNaar drishti vongi theke etar
>shombhondhe ekto beshi alok paat korte paarben; karon, ei khane je >tinte
>role niye beshi durbhabna, otrthat, shashuDi-bou-"nonodini", sei tintei
>mohilader role.

>Eta ki ultimately culminate kore, mohila rai mohala der dekh te paren
>na?

Dekhun Shyambabu, aapnader shaathe aamrao jante ootshuk je shongshare
ki bhaabe shaanti bojai rakha jai, in fact janar interest aapnader theke
beshi boi kom noi. Kintu mushkil hochche shahsuDi-ra exactly ki
bhaabchen ta jana khub mushkil. Tobe aapnar oi generalisation je
mohilara mohilader dekhte paren na, aami konomotei mante parlaam na.
Aamar mote aapnara oi kotha bole nijeder shantona dyan, jokhon
shomoshyar shomukkhin hon.

Aarek jaigai shashuDider `mental insecurity' shamlanor byapare aapni
bolechen:

>Aami aagei bolechhi, amar dharona, ekjon mohila ke aarekjon mohila onek
>beshi bujhben (karon ek-i drishti vongi theke dekhar sujog paoa).
>Sekhane dwaitwo (ontoto: manoshik bhabe) ta ki bou-er ektu beshi noi?

Aagei bolechi, kinchit porichoi-e ta shombhob noi, bou-der psychic
biddye nei bolei aamar dharona. Bojha-r jonyo chai onek diner
shanniyoddho, jar shujog chele peyechen, bou pan-ni.

Sharmila

[s...@brahma.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu]

In article <3214D2...@northnet.net>,

Suparna

Eta aapni khub-ee bhalo bolechen. Aamar mote shei base thekei
aamra aaro egiye jete pari, shomporko aaro onek bhalo hote pare. Aasha
kora jai aamader modhye wall-ta impenetrable hobe na, jodi aamra aei
aastha rakhi je we speak the same language.

Sharmila
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please report abuse of this service to: post...@dejanews.com

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Shyambabu, prothomei aapnake dhonyobaad janai post-ti e-mail korar
jonyo. Onek discussion hoyeche er opor dekhlaam, kichu kichu poDlaam-o.
Koekta bishoi-e kichu janano dorkaar:

1. Header niye aapnar onek problem aache dekhlaam. Aami kintu tar kono
karon khNuje pelaam na. Khub shadharon proshno, to both sexes. Aami-o
mone kori je shombhoboto net-e kono shashuri nei, tai onyer kaache jante
chaowa je shashurider byabohaarer pechone ki karon thaakte pare.
Directly kono shashurike jiggesh korle tini hoito bolte-o paren aabar
nao bolte paren. Aami chesta korechi aykbaar, kono fol hoi ni, borong
dushchinta aaro bereche, karon bhodromohila byaparta shompurno deny
korechilen. Ta chaDa header niye aapnar, mane hobu-shashuDider cheleder
alarmed hobaar to kono karon dekhi na. Borong aapnader khushi howa uchit
je aamra bhalo shomporko jate hoi she byapare khub shocheshto.

2. Aapni jante cheyechilen je shashuDi-der opor aamader raag aache kina
ba aamra shashuDi-der against-e kina. Raag kyano thaakbe? Eta to tNader
bojhar aykta procheshta matro. Aar oNra to mohila, tar opor-e borer ma,
aamader kaache khub-ee important.

3. Aarek jaigai dekhlaam aapni jante cheyechen je if we expect trouble
from a shashuDi who has been an untroublesome mother. The answer is,
yes. Karon, aamar nijer experience-e aami erokom khub niriho bhalo
manush koekjon ma dekhechi, jNader character-e notun kichu traits dyakha
diyeche jei muhurte tNara shashuDi hoyechen. Byaparta khub interesting
mone hoyeche aamar, aar shei shonge puzzling-o.

4. Aapni bolechen je aajkaal onek poriborton esheche drishtibhongite.
Aami bolbo esheche hoito, kintu ta porjaapto noi. Shashuri-bou-er

shomporko aaro onek bhalo hote pare.

5. Sheshe boli je eta nishchoi je eti-o onyo shomporker moto, tai clash
conflict shob-ee thaakbe. Tai bole eti beche niye aalada kore aalochona
kora jabe na?

Bhalo aachen to? :-)

Sharmila

PS O hain, "nonodini raibaghini" kothata aami-ee bolechilaam, kintu
aapnar-ee moto smiley lagate bhule giyechilaam.

[Srabani Banerjee]

Shubu Mukherjee writes:

>SB> If you think that my failure to mention all the other cases of dowry deaths
>SB> means that they do not exist, then I would suggest that you start looking
>SB> for other sources of information, besides SCB. If you need statistics, I'll
>SB> give them to you.
>
>Please.

Dowry Deaths
------------

Year 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994

W.B. 97 112 214 245 538 179 256 349
India 1912 2209 4215 4835 5157 4954 5817 5199

Source: National Crimes Bureau, Home Ministry, Government of India

These are the *official* figures. Various organisations do, time
and again, come up with data which outnumber official figures by huge
margins - but, I guess, you would rather go by the official statistics.

>SB> And, just to clear up something else - to me, even one Roop Kanwar case _is_
>SB> a `big deal' - almost as big a deal as a single Olympic bronze medal.
>

>One case is indeed a big deal. But that doesn't warrant gross
>generalizations as you and others seem to make.

And what exactly is this `gross generalization' that I make?

Srabani

[Arindam Banerjee]

> : Humay toe loot liya hai milkay husnwaloN nay
> : Goray-goray galoN nay, kalay-kalay baloN nay
>
> Are Paglaa. Tobe eta black and white jug-er black and white gaan. Ajkaal
> bole: Bachna ay hasinNo, lo mNay aa gayaaaaaaahh...
>
> IDG.

Otao twenty years outdated. Tokhono khub akta convincing chilo na.
Aar current discussion-ay otar relevance bujhchi na.

Anyway shashuri-der and bou-der bapaar jai hok na kano, aamar point
chilo jay we men are the spoils of battle, for the reasons given
in the black and white gaan. I have forgotten the lyrics, but the
meaning was that women are the most efficient hunters, as they have
to make just one kill to suffice for their whole lives. (Of course,
of course, this is an old-old song and not at all suitable for
politically correct ears in our progressive age.)

[sayan bhattacharyya]

Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>>>>>> In article <4v0stb$n...@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, bhat...@engin.umich.edu (Sayan Bhattacharyya) writes:
>
>SB> Why do so many people like to deny that a problem exists? We as a society
>SB> are not helped by living in denial, or by adopting an "ostrich-like"
>SB> attitude, as Srabani eloquently described it.
>
>And what if the problem is the fruit of an imaginative mind? Produce
>the article you referred to and we can talk.

I noticed that Srabani has already posted the statistics (data from
National Crime Bureau). So maybe you can "talk" now? (Unless, of
course, you think that the National Crime Bureau has an "imaginative
mind" too....)

-Sayan.

[Indranil DasGupta]

Arindam Banerjee (a.ban...@trl.oz.au) wrote:

: > : Humay toe loot liya hai milkay husnwaloN nay

: > : Goray-goray galoN nay, kalay-kalay baloN nay
: >
: > Are Paglaa. Tobe eta black and white jug-er black and white gaan. Ajkaal
: > bole: Bachna ay hasinNo, lo mNay aa gayaaaaaaahh...

: Otao twenty years outdated.

KuDi bochhore-i outdated? Vintage bolun.
Snehashis-babu adhunik version ekta pathiyechhilen oboshyo. Gaantai chinte
parlaam na.

: Tokhono khub akta convincing chilo na.

Kano? Cinema, gaan, dutoi hit chhilo to.

: Aar current discussion-ay otar relevance bujhchi na.

"Husn-wala"-ra amader lutbe kano, amrai tader lute-pute khabo.

IDG.

[Indranil DasGupta]

Srabanir deoa statistics:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dowry Deaths
------------

Year 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994

W.B. 97 112 214 245 538 179 256 349
India 1912 2209 4215 4835 5157 4954 5817 5199

Source: National Crimes Bureau, Home Ministry, Government of India

_________________________________________________________________________

Snehashis-babu-r onurodh rakhte ei shutoy kichhu opriyo shotyi kotha
bolte jachchhi. Doya kore keu ragben na. Bolte hoy bole bola. Kotha
phiriye nite ektu-o dwidha hobe na.

Prothomoto: 1991-er porishonkhyan-er dike drishti akorshon kori. Ki
hoyechhilo oi bochhor? Ami desh chheDe edeshe elaam, Gorbachev-er chakri
galo, Gulf war jome uthechhe. Rajiv Gandhi ar nei. Hothat poshchim
bong-er bodhu-hotyar shonkhya double hoye galo! Puro Bharoter
shonkhya-ta oi bochhore beDechhe 7% moto. Orthat bola jete pare, Bangali
jegechhe. Derite holeo, jegechhe.

Dwitiyoto: Tar porer bochhore-i 538 theke kome 179? Ja kina 1989-er
shonkhyar cheyeo kom! "Tobe re" bole jege uthei jhimiye poDlo naki Bangali?

Tarpor theke oboshyo motamuti jake bole healthy growth
cholchhe. Bullish. Economy baDchhe. Crime to ektu adhtu baDbei.

300-400 lok mora ar ki amon byepaar. Shubu-babu ba ami er cheye beshi
lok to bore kore mari. Kintu 1991 ar 1992-r biporeetgami fluctuation-er
byepaarta khub interesting. Provisional explanation: Jader 1992-te
marbar kotha chhilo tader onek-kei kono karone 1991-e mara
hoyechhe. Akhon dekhte hobe 1991-e poshchim banglay kerosene-er dor
hothat poDe giyechhilo kina. Kintu gulf war cholchhe. Dor to baDar-i
kotha, aNya?

IDG.

[mp...@pcss.maps.susx.ac.uk]

Trying to post through DejaNews again.

In article <4unu61$b...@news.nd.edu>,
rdo...@wood.helios.nd.edu (rajib doogar) wrote:
> ekkebar think bolecchen, amar lekhata ektu khato-length'a poDecche.
> (accha, khaTo-length'er banglaTa ki? jamon "khato-length-er bol.")

:-) ekebare bangshodando diye dilen?

amader kattik-da to `khato length' bolten bole mone hochchhe |
khato jomi bolle kemon hoy? oboshyo cricket khelar khetre ektu
adhtu ingriji byabohar korte amar kono apotti nei | achchha,
daanguli khelar katha gulo lagale kemon hoy?

Kartik Basu-r kathay mone porlo | Premangshu Chatterjeer katha
mone achhe apnader? ini kintu ekkale besh bhalo bol korten,
Jorhat-e Assam-er biruddhe 20 run diye 10 wicket niyechhilen
ekta innings-e (innings-ke `khep' bola jabe?) |

arekta katha bhoye bhoye bolbo? du'shahoshi bishwopremik kathata
ei adhomer banano bolei dharona | age kothao dekhini |

Amitabha

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!]

[Dadu]

Swagatam Sharmila, aapnar onuposthiti-te net pray behat hoe jachchhilo!

Sharmila Mukherjee wrote:
>

Esei tini koekti 'mine' net-e bosie ot petechhen, ke ke tate pa dae!

> Shyambabu, prothomei aapnake dhonyobaad janai post-ti e-mail korar
> jonyo. Onek discussion hoyeche er opor dekhlaam, kichu kichu poDlaam-o.
> Koekta bishoi-e kichu janano dorkaar:

Aapni net theke harie gele ei SCB-r naam poriborton korar suparish korte
hobe. Tai, aami amar kortobyo korechhi matro.

> 1. Header niye aapnar onek problem aache dekhlaam. Aami kintu tar kono
> karon khNuje pelaam na. Khub shadharon proshno, to both sexes. Aami-o
> mone kori je shombhoboto net-e kono shashuri nei,

Ami jetar dike drishti akorshon korte cheyechhilum, seta holo, amar mone
hoechhilo, alochona ta khub porishkar bhabe du-tinti dike bifurcate
korechhe. Ekta holo, clash of personality (and possibly, interest)
amongst three persona (shashuDi-bou-nonodini), je tintei ekjon mohilar
tinti rup (at different stages). Ei bapyarta onekei swikar korechhen
(kintu eta mante paren ni je mohilara mohila-der dekhte paren na!). Dui
nombor holo, ShashuDi der songe sudhu bou der-i noi, onek somoi
jamai-der-o clash dekha jai; tar karon ki muloto: ek-i? Ebong, tin
nombor holo, bodhu nirjatan (jate invariably sara 'in-laws involved
thaken. SaDe tin nombor holo- swami nirjatan- ja kromosho:-i urdhomukhi
(ebong karur karur tate chintito: hobar karon aachhe boleo aamar
dharona).

Sutorang, ei topic ta ektai heading-e hobe keno?

........tai onyer kaache jante

> chaowa je shashurider byabohaarer pechone ki karon thaakte pare.
> Directly kono shashurike jiggesh korle tini hoito bolte-o paren aabar
> nao bolte paren.

Ja aami bolte cheyechhi ta holo, ekhane shashuDi-der pokkho nichchhen na
keno? at least simulate ba emulate kore-o? Ontoto: ekjon mohila-r pokkhe
ta emulate kora onek sohoj.

..... Aami chesta korechi aykbaar, kono fol hoi ni, borong

> dushchinta aaro bereche, karon bhodromohila byaparta shompurno deny
> korechilen. Ta chaDa header niye aapnar, mane hobu-shashuDider cheleder
> alarmed hobaar to kono karon dekhi na. Borong aapnader khushi howa uchit
> je aamra bhalo shomporko jate hoi she byapare khub shocheshto.

Aamar mone hoi, eta aar ektu elaborate meaning carry korle (e.g.,
"achcha shashuDi-bou-er moddhye aashol bapyar ta ki bolunto",) hoito
onek beshi obhigyota-r hodish paoa jete paare.

Aami apnar prochestar appreciate-o korechhi kothao (at least mone mone)
ta nischoi dekhechhen!

> 2. Aapni jante cheyechilen je shashuDi-der opor aamader raag aache kina
> ba aamra shashuDi-der against-e kina. Raag kyano thaakbe? Eta to tNader
> bojhar aykta procheshta matro. Aar oNra to mohila, tar opor-e borer ma,
> aamader kaache khub-ee important.

Aapni amake konthasha korar chesta kore jachchhen onekkhon dore. Aami
thik raag aachhe, ta to bolini! Je kono-o mohila-i hobu shashuDi-o
(manben nischoi?). Sutorang, ekjon mohila kibhabe aarekjon mohila-ke
(probably, the role would chang after a certain number of years)
dekhchhen, ta janar chesta korechhi matro!

>
> 3. Aarek jaigai dekhlaam aapni jante cheyechen je if we expect trouble
> from a shashuDi who has been an untroublesome mother. The answer is,
> yes. Karon, aamar nijer experience-e aami erokom khub niriho bhalo
> manush koekjon ma dekhechi, jNader character-e notun kichu traits dyakha
> diyeche jei muhurte tNara shashuDi hoyechen. Byaparta khub interesting
> mone hoyeche aamar, aar shei shonge puzzling-o.

Aapnar ei ovigyota ki ei prosonge karur observation ("mohila matro-i
kortritwa korte chan") ke support kore na? Jodio ei comment-e oneke-i re
re kore uthechhilen. Ei proshonge, ekta purono golpo mone poDchhe- ja
Mujtoba Ali-r boi.e prothom poDechhilum, aapnarao nischoi janen.

> 4. Aapni bolechen je aajkaal onek poriborton esheche drishtibhongite.
> Aami bolbo esheche hoito, kintu ta porjaapto noi. Shashuri-bou-er
> shomporko aaro onek bhalo hote pare.

Seta-o thik.

>
> 5. Sheshe boli je eta nishchoi je eti-o onyo shomporker moto, tai clash
> conflict shob-ee thaakbe. Tai bole eti beche niye aalada kore aalochona
> kora jabe na?

Nischoi. Ebong, amar kromosho:-i mone hochchhe ta joruri-o.

>
> Bhalo aachen to? :-)

Thanks. Ekta proshno. Aamake keu ekjon upodesh diyechhilen je, kauke
khub galaggali dite hole, pore ekta ":-)" lagaben. Aami net-e notun
tato nischoi bujhte perechhen! To oi smiley lagano shobdo ta kono-o
galagali noi to? Khub-i niriho proshno, ghurie neben na kindly.

>
> Sharmila
>
> PS O hain, "nonodini raibaghini" kothata aami-ee bolechilaam, kintu
> aapnar-ee moto smiley lagate bhule giyechilaam.

we'll come to it later.

Thanx

[Chaitali Basu]

Sharmila Mukherjee (s...@shiva.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu) wrote:
: Shyam-Dadu likhlen:
: >
: > Swagatam Sharmila, aapnar onuposthiti-te net pray behat hoe jachchhilo!
:

Jai balo ei kothata kintu thik je tumi aar Indrani dujone
dub maraye scb-ta kamon praanheen hoye poDechilo.Srabani
aka ei thread-e loDe loDe hayeran hoye gechhe.

: Sharmila

Chaitali

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Shyam-Dadu likhlen:

>
> Swagatam Sharmila, aapnar onuposthiti-te net pray behat hoe jachchhilo!

Bhaggish aapni chilen!

>
> Sharmila Mukherjee wrote:
> >
>
> Esei tini koekti 'mine' net-e bosie ot petechhen, ke ke tate pa dae!

Eta kintu aapni aamar proti obichaar korchen, :-)

> Aapni net theke harie gele ei SCB-r naam poriborton korar suparish korte
> hobe. Tai, aami amar kortobyo korechhi matro.

Ki je bolen!..(kaan chulke)....aapni thaakte aami?

> Ami jetar dike drishti akorshon korte cheyechhilum, seta holo, amar mone
> hoechhilo, alochona ta khub porishkar bhabe du-tinti dike bifurcate
> korechhe. Ekta holo, clash of personality (and possibly, interest)
> amongst three persona (shashuDi-bou-nonodini), je tintei ekjon mohilar
> tinti rup (at different stages). Ei bapyarta onekei swikar korechhen
> (kintu eta mante paren ni je mohilara mohila-der dekhte paren na!).

Karon kothata gross generalization.

Dui
> nombor holo, ShashuDi der songe sudhu bou der-i noi, onek somoi
> jamai-der-o clash dekha jai; tar karon ki muloto: ek-i?

Aamar mote, na. Aamader mayera aei dik diye khub shocheton; tNara bhebe
thaaken jamai-ke chotale tar effect meyer opor poDte pare, tai tNara
shei poth-ee maaDan na, onek kichu mukh buje shojhyo koren. Aar
aadhipotyer byaparta-o meyer byalai kyamon mlaan hoye aashe, shamajik
karon-e.

Ebong, tin
> nombor holo, bodhu nirjatan (jate invariably sara 'in-laws involved
> thaken. SaDe tin nombor holo- swami nirjatan- ja kromosho:-i urdhomukhi
> (ebong karur karur tate chintito: hobar karon aachhe boleo aamar
> dharona).

Nishchoi, shetao chinta-r bishoi boiki, kintu aykhono mohamari roope
dyakha dai ni bolei bodh hoi lok-jon aykhono kichuta nishchinto aachen.

>
> Sutorang, ei topic ta ektai heading-e hobe keno?

Aami muloto cheyechilaam aalochonati shashuDi-bou-er modhye sheemito
raakhte, kintu aapni jodi mone koren je naam bodlale aalochona
foloproshu hobe, aapni nishchinte notun naam raakhte paren.

> Ja aami bolte cheyechhi ta holo, ekhane shashuDi-der pokkho nichchhen na
> keno? at least simulate ba emulate kore-o? Ontoto: ekjon mohila-r pokkhe
> ta emulate kora onek sohoj.

Dekhun aami aage-o bolechi, aabar bolchi, aami karur pokkho nichchi na.
Mohilader pokkhe emulate kora shohoj hobe moholder theke, eta kintu aami
thik mene nite parlaam na.

> Aamar mone hoi, eta aar ektu elaborate meaning carry korle (e.g.,
> "achcha shashuDi-bou-er moddhye aashol bapyar ta ki bolunto",) hoito
> onek beshi obhigyota-r hodish paoa jete paare.

Aapni shochchonde tai korte paren.

>
> Aami apnar prochestar appreciate-o korechhi kothao (at least mone mone)
> ta nischoi dekhechhen!

Chokhe poDeche boleto mone poDche na, oboshyo jodi mone mone kore
thaaken, tobe aalada kotha, :-)

> Aapni amake konthasha korar chesta kore jachchhen onekkhon dore.

Chee chee, eshob ki bolchen?

Aami
> thik raag aachhe, ta to bolini! Je kono-o mohila-i hobu shashuDi-o
> (manben nischoi?).

Manlaam.

Sutorang, ekjon mohila kibhabe aarekjon mohila-ke
> (probably, the role would chang after a certain number of years)
> dekhchhen, ta janar chesta korechhi matro!

Tahole ebaar aapni nijeke hobu-shoshur kolpona kore tNader manoshikota
shombondhe kichu bolben?

> Aapnar ei ovigyota ki ei prosonge karur observation ("mohila matro-i
> kortritwa korte chan") ke support kore na?

Sheti aamar-ee proshno chilo shobaar kache, aapni tahole ta mene
nichchen?

> Nischoi. Ebong, amar kromosho:-i mone hochchhe ta joruri-o.

Dhonyobaad, tahole aasha raakhbo je aapni aei joruri kaaje ongshogrohon
nishchoi korben.

Aamake keu ekjon upodesh diyechhilen je, kauke
> khub galaggali dite hole, pore ekta ":-)" lagaben. Aami net-e notun
> tato nischoi bujhte perechhen! To oi smiley lagano shobdo ta kono-o
> galagali noi to? Khub-i niriho proshno, ghurie neben na kindly.

Aapnake ke aymon kotha bolechilen aami jani na, aami kintu hashi-mukhei
aapni kyamon aachen jante cheyechilaam, sincerely.

[Arindam Banerjee]

> : Tokhono khub akta convincing chilo na.
>
> Kano? Cinema, gaan, dutoi hit chhilo to.

Aha, Tariq kay bhulay jacchen? O Rishi kay aamar motay besh outshine
kore diyechilo.

Kaal-ke African haati-der sombondhe documentary dekhchilam. Aapnar
choice gaan-ta monay hoy bull elephants in heat-er sombondhe besh
descriptive.

>
> : Aar current discussion-ay otar relevance bujhchi na.
>
> "Husn-wala"-ra amader lutbe kano, amrai tader lute-pute khabo.

Bravo! In sheer bravery and optimism this beats anything anyone has
ever written on the net.

> IDG

Arindam Banerjee
Disclaimer: My opinions do not involve my employer.

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Arindam Banerjee wrote:

IDG-babu likhlen:

> > "Husn-wala"-ra amader lutbe kano, amrai tader lute-pute khabo.
>
> Bravo! In sheer bravery and optimism this beats anything anyone has
> ever written on the net.

How juvenil-ish!

Sharmila

[Sharmila Mukherjee]

Chaitali Basu wrote:

> Jai balo ei kothata kintu thik je tumi aar Indrani dujone
> dub maraye scb-ta kamon praanheen hoye poDechilo.Srabani
> aka ei thread-e loDe loDe hayeran hoye gechhe.

Aare Srabani aykai ayksho, tobe aabar doob dilo kyano bujhte parchi na.
Ki Srabani? :-)

Sharmila

PS Welcome back, Chaitali. Kichu notun goppo-toppo chaDo, ki korcho
mairi?

[Dadu]

Chaitali Basu wrote:
>
> Sharmila Mukherjee (s...@shiva.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu) wrote:

Eki, sobai-i eto taDataDi aashol bapyarta jene fellen ki kore, je chup
chap hoe gelen?

Dadu

[Indrani DasGupta]

Indranil DasGupta wrote:

> "Husn-wala"-ra amader lutbe kano, amrai tader lute-pute khabo.
>

> IDG.

Maane??? Apnar lekha pore mairi amaar raag to hoy-i...eta por-e ja
hochchhe ta aar bolar noy!!

Rosh-koshayito netre,
Indrani.

[Chaitali Basu]

Indranil DasGupta (dgu...@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:

: "Husn-wala"-ra amader lutbe kano, amrai tader lute-pute khabo.
:
: IDG.

Bravo Indranil-babu!! Shingher keshor theke shurjer chotar
moto tej berochhe.

Chaitali

[Srabani Banerjee]

Indrani DasGupta writes:

>Chaitali Basu wrote:
>>
>> Sharmila Mukherjee (s...@shiva.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu) wrote:
>>

>> Jai balo ei kothata kintu thik je tumi aar Indrani dujone
>> dub maraye scb-ta kamon praanheen hoye poDechilo.Srabani
>> aka ei thread-e loDe loDe hayeran hoye gechhe.
>>

>> : Sharmila
>>
>> Chaitali
>
>Srabaney! Balikey! Kutra twam!?!

Eta ki hochchhe? Manchhi je `imitation is the best form of flattery',
kintu eta ektu beshi beshi hoye jachchhe na? :)

Srabani.