Uniting the Two Bengals
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com
Many words have been said and posted in these newsgroups. I was wondering
why the Bengalis on both sides of the "Border" don't stand up and raise
their voices in support of uniting the two Bengals ?
The language is the same, the food habits are the same ,- why should
religion be the basis of this artificial divide ? I am sure people of both
sides , with very cultured upbringings, are not fanatic zealots !!
Let's hear some positive comments from some non-communal Bengalis and
Indians at large !
-Apurba Krishna Sircar
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Hassan Alam wrote:
>
> You think the BJP or the Jamaat will stand for that?
>
I don't think BJP and Jamaat will be an issue if the peoples of the two
nations stand up for it. Ignore bigots. Best way to shut them up.
> A more realistic goal would be increased cultural and trade exchange.
>
Absolutely. That's the first step. The rest follows slowly.
Regards,
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Hassan Alam
You think the BJP or the Jamaat will stand for that?
A more realistic goal would be increased cultural and trade exchange.
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
: Many words have been said and posted in these newsgroups. I was wondering
--
Hassan Alam
soum...@ix.netcom.com
Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
>
> Hassan Alam wrote:
> >
> > You think the BJP or the Jamaat will stand for that?
> >
>
> nations stand up for it. Ignore bigots. Best way to shut them up.
>
> >
>
> Regards,
>
> Shoumyo Dasgupta
>
> http://cac.psu.edu/~txd111
This thread comes up again and again almost every quarter and does not
take us anywhere , ends in-conclusively. I would suggest , let us foreget
the scums of our societies -the JAmaat and BJP, pariah dogs and
scavengers are always there in every society who live ,thrive and
procreate preying on others. The point however is grave , those of us who
range within the braoad spectrum of people wanting some sort of
co-operation to the people who want unification almost now ,should try
get into an endeavour of soul-searching to find the factors which are our
concern and which makes us go nervous or wobbly . We know that the
colonisation separated us,so the best way of completing de-colonisation
would definitely be to re-unite.But are we really prepared?? LEt us ,
with the positive attitude of re-conciliation and cultural healing ,try
to find and weed out our false concerns and FEARs in the way ...
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com
In article <32D955...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>,
txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu wrote:
>
> Hassan Alam wrote:
> >
> > You think the BJP or the Jamaat will stand for that?
> >
> >
> Absolutely. That's the first step. The rest follows slowly.
The fact is , cultural exchanges have always been there. Trade exchanges mean
very little to the common layman. There needs to be more awareness among the
common masses .
The BJP and Jamaat both support unification. Jamaat wants the Dar-ul-Harab to
become Dar-ul-Islam and BJP wants reconversion of the heretics.
The religious influence is so strong that until the common masses attain
education that frees them from the yoke of bigotry, nothing will suceed.
Hence it is upto the educated , liberal-minded people on both sides of this
artificial divide to stand up and spread this awareness , for the greater
interest of Bengalis at large.
Someone in these newsgroups sent a mail to me saying that this Unity is not
possible and that this is not Germany.That is the kind of ugly face of
fundamentalism and communalism that we need to weed out if this goal is to be
attained.
Naeem Mohaiemen
Pundalik Prabhu wrote:
> I am puzzled by the very unfriendly relationship of
> BNP to India. I am sure India can be blamed to some extent too.
> What is the genesis of such a philosophy? Why?
Consider this:
BNP & AL:
*Have no major economic policy differences
*Are both led by women, so cannot capitalize on chauvinist vote
Anti-India stance is a useful stance for BNP to take to differentiate
itself from AL. As some have pointed out, some of these India-overtures
were also made in BN time. But now it becomes more useful to oppose
them.
AL has a slight disadvantage. In order to differentiate itself from
BNP in pre-election period, they would have to be aggressively
pro-Indian. This would not play well.
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <32D9A6...@ix.netcom.com>, soum...@ix.netcom.com says...
We know that the
>colonisation separated us,so the best way of completing de-colonisation
>would definitely be to re-unite.But are we really prepared??
A lot has happened since then. People on both side of the border know very
little about each other. Separate political/social identities (leaving
religion out of it completely) have emerged (ie, 1952, 1971 etc). It would
be foolish to even think of trying to go through the adjustment processes
(look at Germany which has a lot more resources). Any kind of formal
reunification would be potentially disastrous. Aiming for the kind of open
border between culturally/historically similar countries such as
Germany-Austria with free movement of ideas, trade, culture, etc. should
be the goal - that requires parity and prejudice-free interaction, not an
easy task.
Hassan Alam
soum...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
: This thread comes up again and again almost every quarter and does not
: take us anywhere , ends in-conclusively. I would suggest , let us foreget
: the scums of our societies -the JAmaat and BJP, pariah dogs and
: scavengers are always there in every society who live ,thrive and
hard to do.
: procreate preying on others. The point however is grave , those of us who
: range within the braoad spectrum of people wanting some sort of
: co-operation to the people who want unification almost now ,should try
: get into an endeavour of soul-searching to find the factors which are our
: concern and which makes us go nervous or wobbly . We know that the
: colonisation separated us,so the best way of completing de-colonisation
: would definitely be to re-unite.But are we really prepared?? LEt us ,
: with the positive attitude of re-conciliation and cultural healing ,try
: to find and weed out our false concerns and FEARs in the way ...
There are fears on each side of being exploited by the other. My parents
tell of horror stories in Calcutta in 1947 riots. Also about discrimination
in education and jobs when growing up. I'm sure you folks have
similar stories. It is hard for me to what is reality, what is paranoia,
and what is divide-and-rule by the british. Whatever it is it feeds into
the hatred genrated by Jamaat/BJP factions.
I think we need to get to know each other again through trade and cultural
exchange, so trust can develop.
Having seen my parents feel disenfranchised because of real or
percieved anti-muslim bias, and myself seeing anti-bengali bias
in Pakistan, I have say there is a lot to be said for growing
up controlling ones destiny. Any cooperation between the two
states has to ensure that there is discrimination against none -
hindu, muslim, buddhist, christian, bengali and non-bengali.
--
Hassan Alam
Supratik Das
On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
> You think the BJP or the Jamaat will stand for that?
Isn't it upto those who chose to break away by saying that Indian Muslims
are a distinct group with no similarity to the rest of India/Indians
that led to the partition of India in 1947, to take the intiative to
reunite Bengal? Let Bangladesh unite with W Bengal and join the Indian
Federation as an semi-autonomous state. Although, I wonder whether an
Islamic Bangladesh would want to join a secular W Bengal as part of India.
> A more realistic goal would be increased cultural and trade exchange.
>
> asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
> : Many words have been said and posted in these newsgroups. I was wondering
> : why the Bengalis on both sides of the "Border" don't stand up and raise
> : their voices in support of uniting the two Bengals ?
>
> : The language is the same, the food habits are the same ,- why should
> : religion be the basis of this artificial divide ? I am sure people of both
> : sides , with very cultured upbringings, are not fanatic zealots !!
>
> : Let's hear some positive comments from some non-communal Bengalis and
> : Indians at large !
>
> : -Apurba Krishna Sircar
> : -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> : http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
> --
> Hassan Alam
>
>
Supratik Das
g951...@talabah.iiu.my
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970113155331.20647A-100000@post>,
It is always better to have a unified Bangladesh. Throughut the history (at
least for last 800 years) Bengalis rebelled against the rule of delhi. They
established independent sultanates. So the friends from the west! If you really
want a unified Bengal then get rid of the chain of slavery of Delhi, as we in
Independent Bangladesh have given up Pindi. We don't want to wear the chain of
slavery of Delhi after throwing away the Pindi's one. We want a Bengal that is
Independent, not an autonomous one under the constitution of Republic Of India.
Hope you understand this. Be real courageous, if you really want one Bengal.
Thank you.
Siraj, Malaysia
Supratic Gupta
Hassan Alam wrote:
>
> You think the BJP or the Jamaat will stand for that?
>
>
> asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
> : Many words have been said and posted in these newsgroups. I was wondering
> : why the Bengalis on both sides of the "Border" don't stand up and raise
> : their voices in support of uniting the two Bengals ?
>
> : The language is the same, the food habits are the same ,- why should
> : religion be the basis of this artificial divide ? I am sure people of both
> : sides , with very cultured upbringings, are not fanatic zealots !!
>
> : Let's hear some positive comments from some non-communal Bengalis and
> : Indians at large !
>
> : -Apurba Krishna Sircar
> : -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> : http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
> --
> Hassan Alam
The reason is simple. bangladesh people are in no mood of Joining India,
Indian bengalis find more economic sence staying in the bigger country,
name India. It is more of economic benifit.
If Free trade/free movement/ free right to education/ are allowed, that
would
mean all practical problems of having modern country system are
disolved,
there would be nothing stoping or even asking for that unity.
Indian bengalis, including me, have no love lost for BD, but not at the
cost
of us leaving India. Our parents left BD to join India.
Supratic Gupta
Udayan Chattopadhyay
General Zia on "a certain foreign country", "a certain political party"
etc etc:
"Ora [AL] kono Bangladeshi party noy. jadi bangladeshi party hoto taholey
12 mashey 13 bar bideshey hukum ante jete hoy na ... ora jakhani bangali
jatiyatabader katha baley, takhani tara simanter baire angul dekhaye ...
okhane tader dada-ra royechey, soja katha"
--- Ziaur Rahman, "Amar rajnitir lakhya"
The last statement, together with recent pronouncements by Khaleda Zia and
other party leaders (ie, "masjider bhetore uludhwani" etc) is an example
of frequent pronouncements which carry overtones of more than just
India-bashing.
Soumitra Bose
Very pertinent post .
Whatever happened , has happened , there is not much we can do about
it. Let us create a new atmosphere of getting exposed to each other.
One thing I must say the Hindu refugees of 1947 in West Bengal have
undergone a wonderful sea-change of becoming secular and compassionate
and tolerant when naturally they wer supposed to have become rabid
anti-muslim.This aspect had been possible because there was
industrialisation and de-class isation among the refugees. People's
movements for basic human rights is a great leveller.Problem of
BAngladesh is class-struggle could never pick up . Many important
intellectuals do not even understand what is meant by class-struggle(I
can bet , in reply to this post some "educated" bangladeshis would come
up with bizzarre connotation of "class-struggle") I am not relishing
the ignorance , I am pointing out the position of political
consciousness in Bangladesh. There consciousness has gone in the way of
nationalism and nationality(which is laudable too) .But political
consciousness means an overall consciousness.It will not be difficult
to make any Wbengalee understand what class-struggle is .h(s)e is
facing it all the time , and can easily figure out who the enemy is .
Well , that is a different issue...
In <hassanaE...@netcom.com> has...@netcom.com (Hassan Alam)
writes:
Soumitra Bose
In <8532153...@dejanews.com> g951...@talabah.iiu.my writes:
>
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970113155331.20647A-100000@post>,
> Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > You think the BJP or the Jamaat will stand for that?
>>
Muslims
>> are a distinct group with no similarity to the rest of India/Indians
>> that led to the partition of India in 1947, to take the intiative to
>> reunite Bengal? Let Bangladesh unite with W Bengal and join the
Indian
>> Federation as an semi-autonomous state. Although, I wonder whether
an
>> Islamic Bangladesh would want to join a secular W Bengal as part of
India.
>>
>> > A more realistic goal would be increased cultural and trade
exchange.
>> >
>> > asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
>> > : Many words have been said and posted in these newsgroups. I was
wondering
>> > : why the Bengalis on both sides of the "Border" don't stand up
and raise
>> > : their voices in support of uniting the two Bengals ?
>> >
>> > : The language is the same, the food habits are the same ,- why
should
>> > : religion be the basis of this artificial divide ? I am sure
people of both
>> > : sides , with very cultured upbringings, are not fanatic zealots
!!
>> >
>> > : Let's hear some positive comments from some non-communal
Bengalis and
>> > : Indians at large !
>> >
>> > : -Apurba Krishna Sircar
>> > : -------------------==== Posted via Deja News
====-----------------------
>> > : http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
>> > --
>> > Hassan Alam
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Supratik Das
>
>It is always better to have a unified Bangladesh. Throughut the
history (at
>least for last 800 years) Bengalis rebelled against the rule of delhi.
They
>established independent sultanates. So the friends from the west! If
you really
>want a unified Bengal then get rid of the chain of slavery of Delhi,
as we in
>Independent Bangladesh have given up Pindi. We don't want to wear the
chain of
>slavery of Delhi after throwing away the Pindi's one. We want a Bengal
that is
>Independent, not an autonomous one under the constitution of Republic
Of India.
>Hope you understand this. Be real courageous, if you really want one
Bengal.
>Thank you.
>Siraj, Malaysia
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News
====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
E shob chendo kotha bohudiin dhore bachalera Bangladesher buke kore
esheche . Bharote Amra poradhin noi, Amra bharoter swadhinotar jonno
lorechilam , shudhu banglar jonno noi. Pindi ekta anchronic
jogakhichuri. Pakistan e Punjabiira nijeder bhasha ke bisorjon diye
shudhu onner opore khobordari kore benche chilo. Bangla bhasha o
songskriti sekhane biponno chilo. Bharot ekta bibhinno dharar o
songskritir oikkobodhho desh , ekhane kono ekok songskriti onno shobai
ke dabiye rakhte paare na .Jotoi Bombai songskriti thakuk regional
songskriti ekhono onek jordar(Songkhai telugu Gaan o Bmabai gganer
theke beshi published hoi) .Bharote kono songeetshilpi naamkore ni
bangla gaan na geye (Ghulam Ali porjonto).
Amra thangyer bhetor lej gutiye competition theke bhoie palai na .
Bangla ajke protishtito . Senanayak Banglaii , Chief Justice Bangalee
chilen (Pakistan e kokhonoi hote parto na ) .CPM er intransigence na
thakle somosto partyr suparish moto(BJP chara - Bancha geche) BAnglaee
prodhanmontree hote parto. Ponchayotee protha ar Borga ekhon onnanora
follow korar chestai achen .
Amra amader songskriteer loraiee somostao bharaotke bhabiey
tulbo.Competition theke bangalee kokhono doure palai ni. Bharater
swadhintar jonne lorai koreche bangalee , 70 e Bharoter mukteer jonne
jhanpiey porechilo. Bharot amader Jonmobhumi matribhumi. Kichu
bodmaisher hat theke somogro bharotke amra mukto korbo.Akhadno Bharot
hobe Boduker jore noi , songskrittee o soubhratritter opor daanriye .
Bangaleer kache Jononi ar Jonmobhumi Behoster onek onek opore . MA ke
amra Bhangi na , Jara Bhoie nijer choto ashroy khonje taanra ekdiin
bhul bujhbe . Somoshya jodi thake take shobaiimile somadhan korte hobe,
Bharoter onnanno prodesher manusho amader bangalee mehonoti manusher
motoi amar nijer rokter bhai ....E sottyotaE pakistaner netrittyo 52 er
porobortite bujhle aajke amra ekta progressive democratic people's
Pakistan petam . tar dhakkate bharoteo democratic movement onek durbar
gotiite egoto. Awami League jibone konodin saara Pakistan e kono
mass-organisation gore ni, kono chatro shromik krishok organisation
gore ni .Muzzaffar er NAAP chest korechilo (tao nam ke owaste). Kono
din lege thake ni .Taai Bangladesh muktijuddhe r somoi Pakistani
jonogoner kono bishesh somorthon powa gelo na . Aaj Punjab kashmir e
Indian Army r otyacharer birudhhe kolkatai protibaad andolon hoi .
Maliik Yaasin ra kolkatai seminar korte paaren..Aj Bharoter kono
onchole human rights abuse hole somosto rajye tar birudhe munush
protibaad kore . MAnusher ei kromobordhoman oikko amra bariyei tulbo.
Bhangar rajniitir bhul amra kokhono korbo .Proyjonhole jaak ek nodi
rokto ...
Soumitra Bose
In <32DAD8...@doboku2.ace.nitech.ac.jp> Supratic Gupta
<gu...@doboku2.ace.nitech.ac.jp> writes:
>
>Hassan Alam wrote:
>>
>> You think the BJP or the Jamaat will stand for that?
>>
exchange.
>>
>> asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
>> : Many words have been said and posted in these newsgroups. I was
wondering
>> : why the Bengalis on both sides of the "Border" don't stand up and
raise
>> : their voices in support of uniting the two Bengals ?
>>
>> : The language is the same, the food habits are the same ,- why
should
>> : religion be the basis of this artificial divide ? I am sure people
of both
>> : sides , with very cultured upbringings, are not fanatic zealots !!
>>
>> : Let's hear some positive comments from some non-communal Bengalis
and
>> : Indians at large !
>>
>> : -Apurba Krishna Sircar
>> : -------------------==== Posted via Deja News
====-----------------------
>> : http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
>> --
>> Hassan Alam
>
India,
>Indian bengalis find more economic sence staying in the bigger
country,
>name India. It is more of economic benifit.
>
>If Free trade/free movement/ free right to education/ are allowed,
that
>would
>mean all practical problems of having modern country system are
>disolved,
>there would be nothing stoping or even asking for that unity.
>
>Indian bengalis, including me, have no love lost for BD, but not at
the
>cost
>of us leaving India. Our parents left BD to join India.
>
>Supratic Gupta
India is a concept of Unity .A concept of the possibility and success
of unifying various divesities.Yes, ther are problems , but there are
conscious people to solve it.We have solved it, we are going to
solve.MAy be,as the trend goes , we will become a wonderful federation
one day, but why should we leave this Jonmobhumi. We have a country of
all of us .Not of Hindus,Not of Muslims , not of any one race or
religions.We are a conglomerate .We would strive for futher unity . We
do not want a country cut out on religious or linguistic basis and then
become impoverished and corrupt and un-managable .We are here to
develop with all of us .We love to play the love-hate game with other
nationalities . It is pretty fun that we hate each other , we reidicule
each other but at the same time we lay down our lives for each other
when some alien threatens us. During BAngladesh war the whole of Indian
Populace regardless of language and religion sacrificed . We know how
to live together even when we fight and compete and cut jokes on each
other . We gave our blood and sweat for Bharotvarsha , we want the
whole of it . It is our Bharotvarsha , all of us belong to it , all of
us own it , all of us live for it , all of us die for it . LEt there be
differences , that is the spice , that is the charm . We would remain
united and we would unite others ,not by force but by people's
collective will and wisdom.
Soumitra Bose
In <Pine.SOL.3.91.970113155331.20647A-100000@post> Supratik Das
<d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
>
>
>
>On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
>
>> You think the BJP or the Jamaat will stand for that?
>
>
Muslims
>are a distinct group with no similarity to the rest of India/Indians
>that led to the partition of India in 1947, to take the intiative to
>reunite Bengal? Let Bangladesh unite with W Bengal and join the Indian
>Federation as an semi-autonomous state. Although, I wonder whether an
>Islamic Bangladesh would want to join a secular W Bengal as part of
India.
>
Wh should BAngladesh join India as a semi-autonomous state????Why not
as a completely sovereign republic in the grand federation of India .At
least that was what Jinnah wanted that Hindustan and Pakistan would be
two sovereign states under the Federative Union of India.
Now Jyoti Basu( I do not condone all his policies -he is a
social-fascist) has boldly said that BJP pointed out right Kashmir
should not have the privilege of having article 370 solely. HE has
demanded article 370 for ALL STATES IN INDIA . India would be much
stronger under a weak federal govt in a federation. We need the SAARC
countries to come and join in Federative India or Con-federative India
keeping their sovereignty intact .Bangldeshee Intellectuals from London
has showed interest in that in a recent seminar.
Any big brother attitude is going to harm us all. Enough of days when
Delhiwallas would decide what the whole of India should do .We need
dilution of power to the lowest village unit level . Public opinion is
coming up strong and it is going to win .....
>
>
>> A more realistic goal would be increased cultural and trade
exchange.
>>
>> asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
>> : Many words have been said and posted in these newsgroups. I was
wondering
>> : why the Bengalis on both sides of the "Border" don't stand up and
raise
>> : their voices in support of uniting the two Bengals ?
>>
>> : The language is the same, the food habits are the same ,- why
should
>> : religion be the basis of this artificial divide ? I am sure people
of both
>> : sides , with very cultured upbringings, are not fanatic zealots !!
>>
>> : Let's hear some positive comments from some non-communal Bengalis
and
>> : Indians at large !
>>
>> : -Apurba Krishna Sircar
>> : -------------------==== Posted via Deja News
====-----------------------
>> : http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
>> --
>> Hassan Alam
>>
>>
>
>Supratik Das
>
Naeem Mohaiemen
Supratic Gupta wrote:
> Indian bengalis, including me, have no love lost for BD, but not at the
> cost of us leaving India.
Wonder if you represent majority of Bengalis?
--
Naeem Mohaiemen
HBO Interactive Media
______________________________________________________
Are you sure? You want to live like common people?
Rent a flat above a shop
Cut your hair and get a job
Smoke some fags and play some pool
Pretend you've never been to school
Still you'll never get it right
Cos when you're laying in bed at night
Watching roaches climb the wall
If you called your dad he can stop it all
-Pulp
______________________________________________________
M. Harun uz Zaman
Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
> E proshogye ekta hasshir kotha mone elo .."Uludhon" niye oshikhito
> Chanral Khaledar Gyaner Bohor ta dekhe moja lage. Uludhhonni
> BANGALEERAI ekmatro dei , ekhon Bangalee Hindurai Bharote dei.
>
> Khaleda ke keu bole dei ni je Uludhoni r utpotti Mishor theke (Egypt).
> Somogro Modhyoprachhye Mussalman odhushhitto deshe uluddhonni dewa hoi,
> Iran o Iraq soho .Banglar baire Kono Hindu ra Uludhoni dei na .
> Uludhoni ta esheche Banglai Sufi santo der theke ,(ekhane Egypter sufi
> der probhabe ashe) jemon Naam guloo tai ."Baba" hochye Arabi, Pharsi
> shobdyo . "Abba " shobdo Urdu bhashira bolen . "KAka" shobdo Turki
> shobdo. Erokom aro onek shobdhoi akhon hindu bangaleerai bolen ,
> onnanno hindura non.Pakistan andolon bhalo bhabei e shob Hinduatani
> shobdo bangladeshee mussalmander modhye guntiye dhukiye diyechhe.
> Begum Rokeya Tanr somosto lekhatei Borobhai ke "DADa" bole eshechen .
> ar Nirombu ke "Jol" bole eshechen .Borong Chandraboti Tanr Mohabharote
> Nirombu ke "Pani" bolechen. "Pani" shobdo sonsgkrito theke esheche .
> BAnglar Baire shobai(oriya Ahomiya chara) ar shob North Indian "Pani"
> bolen . Etao Urdu r hat dhore asha.
>
> Kintu Shobcheye mojar Uludhoni niye .Ota Mussalmani Riti Rowaj .
> Oboshyo Ordho-songsrkitik Khaleda e shob bujhbe ki kore .kintu Obak
> lage BNP r modhyeo to shikhito lokera achen , taNrao ki Mohila ke ei
> bokami r theke baNchalen na ???
Well-written, Soumitra. Goes to show the perverse relationship
between
ignorance and bigotry. Let me add another interesting story. The late
Abul Hashim (General Secretary of Bengal Muslim League in the 40's and
coauthor of the Suhruardy-Sarat Bose-Abul Hashim Plan for Reuniting
Bengal), known to be the leader of the "progrssive" wing of the Muslim
League during pre-partition days, once joked that attempts to "islamize"
Bangla may lead to absurd situations. He used the following example:
"Meyetar *kajal* chokh khushite *jal jal* korchilo."
"Islamized" version of the above:
"Meyetar *kapani* chokh khushite *pani pani* korchilo."
As far as my position on this thread is concerned, I am against all
forms
of prejudice and xenophobia, particularly the anti-Indian prejudice
(partly caused by communal feelings) harbored by many Bangladeshis. As
I also made clear in my posts more than a year ago, I am opposed to
political reunification of the two Bengals, but support greater
understanding between the two.
M. Harun uz Zaman, Ph.D.
The Ohio State University
>
> In <5bh27c$b...@snow.btinternet.com> Uch...@btinternet.com (Udayan
masu...@tr.comm.mot.com
In article <5bhqst$i...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
soum...@ix.netcom.com(Soumitra Bose) wrote:
>
> Very pertinent post .
>
> Whatever happened , has happened , there is not much we can do about
> it. Let us create a new atmosphere of getting exposed to each other.
> One thing I must say the Hindu refugees of 1947 in West Bengal have
> undergone a wonderful sea-change of becoming secular and compassionate
> and tolerant when naturally they wer supposed to have become rabid
> anti-muslim.This aspect had been possible because there was
> industrialisation and de-class isation among the refugees. People's
> movements for basic human rights is a great leveller.Problem of
> BAngladesh is class-struggle could never pick up . Many important
> intellectuals do not even understand what is meant by class-struggle(I
> can bet , in reply to this post some "educated" bangladeshis would come
> up with bizzarre connotation of "class-struggle") I am not relishing
> the ignorance , I am pointing out the position of political
> consciousness in Bangladesh. There consciousness has gone in the way of
> nationalism and nationality(which is laudable too) .But political
> consciousness means an overall consciousness.It will not be difficult
> to make any Wbengalee understand what class-struggle is .h(s)e is
> facing it all the time , and can easily figure out who the enemy is .
>
> Well , that is a different issue...
>
There you go again with your patronizing/condescending remarks against
Bangladeshi Intellectuals. So its only you and all the WB intellectuals
who understands class struggles, and BD intellectuals are incapable of
understanding this? What an outrageous remark! So you dont relish in
this "ignorance" of BD intellectuals. And I dont relish in your "Ignorance"
about this "assumed" ignorance of BD intellectuals either. I have met
many (one exception is enough to break the rule) WB professionals/intellectuals
here who are totally against the concept class struggle (I guess you
interpret opposition to it as ignorance), they condemn Naxalite movement
in the strongest possible terms. They are more interested in the luxury
and creature comforts and dont care about the condition of the toiling masses
in WB or Calcutta. I havent heard you advocating any class struggle in
WB or actively involved in one. You are suddenly so interested in the class
struggle in BD. Its unfortunate that although you have made sensible
comments on other postings but this kind of attitude undermines everything.
It is is this very "holier than thou", "We know better" etc kind of attitude
that acts as the major obstacle to unification.
M. Harun uz Zaman
> >colonisation separated us,so the best way of completing de-colonisation
> >would definitely be to re-unite.But are we really prepared??
>
> little about each other. Separate political/social identities (leaving
> religion out of it completely) have emerged (ie, 1952, 1971 etc). It would
> be foolish to even think of trying to go through the adjustment processes
> (look at Germany which has a lot more resources). Any kind of formal
> reunification would be potentially disastrous. Aiming for the kind of open
> border between culturally/historically similar countries such as
> Germany-Austria with free movement of ideas, trade, culture, etc. should
> be the goal - that requires parity and prejudice-free interaction, not an
> easy task.
Very well-thought points. We should not try to reverse the past but
rather create a better future.
sayan bhattacharyya
>Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
>> Somproti Bihar er joghonno hotyakandor
>> poripurno protishodh newa sompurno hoiechhe.
How so?
>> Aajke Poschim bongye 35% Mohila der jonno reserved .Sekhane political
>> poste (ponchayet e) 65% mohila . 35% Ainoto Sc,ST der jonno reservation
>> ,sekhane 50% representation .
Soumitra misses a very important point. The above statistics about
reservation does not represent the _success_ of the Indian State,
it represents the _failure_ of the Indian State. Do I sound
paradoxical? Think again. If West Bengal/India had been really
successful in ensuring social justice and equality, then reservations
would not have been needed at all! The fact that reservations are
still needed after 50 years of sovereignty proves that the State
has completely failed to guarantee social justice, which is why
artificial band-aids like reservations have become necessary.
I hate to say this, but there are times when Soumitra seems
to exaggerate the achievements of the Indian polity.
It may be the case that Bangladesh's record is still poorer
than ours. But that shouldn't be any reason or excuse for _us_
to feel complacent.
Finally, I find all this emotional talk about "unification"
to be a complete non-issue as political nation-states have
become completely irrelevant in the modern age anyway.
Naeem Mohaiemen
>>, g951...@talabah.iiu.my writes:
> > Although we speak the same language with those in West Bengal, our communication
> > style is still diffrent from them.
Masudur Rahman wrote:
> This is the most ridiculous argument against a united Bangla.
> Do we all communicate in the same style in Bangladesh? The dialect
> of Rangpur is as Foreign to Dhakaites as the dialect of Nadia.
Well said. Sylhet o tho ek shomoi Bangladesh er ongsho hobar kotha
chilo na.
> There can be other valid reasons against Unification "Under India"
> but this one holds no water.
--
Naeem Mohaiemen
HBO Interactive Media
______________________________________________________
Are you sure? You want to live like common peple?
Naeem Mohaiemen
Soumitra Bose wrote:
> PoschimBanglai 27% Mussalman ,Political
> level e o montrittye 32% representation .Ponchayaet levele (tin ti
> storei) Mussalman representation 38% .
Eta khub mullyoban thottho. AMar jana chilo na.
Amader egulo jana dorkar, WB the ashole ki hocche.
>Bangladesh ei statistics dekhate paarbe ??
Na, Bangladeshi hishabei bolchi, ey statistic amra dekhathe parbo na,
pari ni, ebong amader
je habi-jabi leadership-- thader adou kono iccha nai ey byapar-e. [AL<
BNP< JP< JAMAAT-- shobar khethre projojjo]
>Hoito parbe , Tobe bohu rokto diye .
Hoito shei shomoi-i esheche.
> BEsh moja to soc.culture.bangladeshe ek roop onekta Judhongdehi , ar
> soc.culture.bengali te jeno boro upodesh bhorakranto . Etai
> polayonprobritti. Competition theke lej gutiye palano . "Bangal"
> kothata Bangladeshi mussalman er khetre projojyo noi.Purbo Bongyo theke
> asha shobar jonnoi. "Bangal" kothata jodi Grhina r porichayok hoto tobe
> "Ghoti" kothatao tai Jai hok Poshcim BAnglai ekhon "Bangal"ra Mane
> Amader jader root Purbo Bongye ,tader i protipottyi , Jyoti Babu nijeo
> tai . Discrimination thakle seta hoto na. Amar Pitrideb Court e Bangla
> bhashai Sowal koren , ebong seta gorbe r sathe koren . Kono oshubidhe
> hoi na . Amar Pishi kono din Bikrampuri dialect chara kotha bolen ni...
> Bharote jemon distinction achhe ,setar birudhe manusher protibaado
> achhe ar manusher protirodhe ta duroo hoi jai na. E ekdhoroner Fajlamo
> kichu Jamaat ponthi Kapurusher ache Jokhon Bharoter sosh dhorte hobe
> tokhon North Indiar Samprodayikota ba poschadpodotake tule dhora hoi.
> Poschim Bongyer kotha chepe jaowa hoi , karon Poschim Bongyer
> osamprodayik ebong jat pat hin sobhyotake dekhale je nijeder kupomonduk
> existence er proyojoniota hariye jai ...Otai je bibhajon kore benche
> thakar ar parasiter moto jibon japon korar ekmatro upai. Bharote
> jokhonii kono upper caster otyachar hoichheye tokhonii sara bharote
> tibro gono-andolon hoichhe , Somproti Bihar er joghonno hotyakandor
> poripurno protishodh newa sompurno hoiechhe. Bharote Keu Bhoie Lej
> gutiye palay na ba alada thake na . Dritpto podokhepe mokabel kore .
> Aajke Poschim bongye 35% Mohila der jonno reserved .Sekhane political
> poste (ponchayet e) 65% mohila . 35% Ainoto Sc,ST der jonno reservation
> ,sekhane 50% representation . Bharoter onnanno rajye eta shighro hote
> cholechhye. Ei Hisheb to Bangldesher e shob orbachin Fazeel gulo dekhai
> na (karon tader Himmat nei) .
--
Naeem Mohaiemen
HBO Interactive Media
______________________________________________________
Are you sure? You want to live like common people?
Supratik Das
On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
> Supratic Gupta wrote:
> > Indian bengalis, including me, have no love lost for BD, but not at the
> > cost of us leaving India.
> Wonder if you represent majority of Bengalis?
The 10 million Hindu Bengali refugees from BD, now in W Bengal would
certainly agree with SG's comment. Besides we have suffered once and BD
has failed to become secular (with no hope of being so in the near
future). As long as it is Islamic (with a strong Islamic bias and
persecution of inorities being rampant) I don't see WB Bengalies wanting to
unite.
Supratik
Supratik Das
On 15 Jan 1997, Soumitra Bose wrote:
> Kintu Shobcheye mojar Uludhoni niye .Ota Mussalmani Riti Rowaj .
> Oboshyo Ordho-songsrkitik Khaleda e shob bujhbe ki kore .kintu Obak
> lage BNP r modhyeo to shikhito lokera achen , taNrao ki Mohila ke ei
> bokami r theke baNchalen na ???
Apni thik bolechen. 'Uludhonir' songe Hinduismer kono somporko neyi, ota
puropuri cultural. Tobe apnar boktobyota ektu modify korte chai. Ota
modhyoprachey cholti holeo otar songe Islamero kono somporko nie. Ota
pre-Islamic cultural aspects of the middle eastern peope theke
eshechey. Ebong uludhonyi onek primitive cultureo dekha jaye. Orthat oita
ekta socila phenomenon rather than religious. Tobe Khaleda Ziyader apotti
ta onyo kahne. There isn't much to differentiate between Bengali Hindus
and Muslim culturally. To maintain the distinction such arbitrary
barriers are being created.
Supratik
Soumitra Bose
Soumitra Bose
In <5bjcov$o30$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu> bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu
(sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>>Soumitra Bose wrote:
>>
>>> Somproti Bihar er joghonno hotyakandor
>>> poripurno protishodh newa sompurno hoiechhe.
>
>
>
>>> Aajke Poschim bongye 35% Mohila der jonno reserved .Sekhane
political
>>> poste (ponchayet e) 65% mohila . 35% Ainoto Sc,ST der jonno
reservation
>>> ,sekhane 50% representation .
>
>reservation does not represent the _success_ of the Indian State,
>it represents the _failure_ of the Indian State. Do I sound
>paradoxical? Think again. If West Bengal/India had been really
>successful in ensuring social justice and equality, then reservations
>would not have been needed at all! The fact that reservations are
>still needed after 50 years of sovereignty proves that the State
>has completely failed to guarantee social justice, which is why
>artificial band-aids like reservations have become necessary.
>
>I hate to say this, but there are times when Soumitra seems
>to exaggerate the achievements of the Indian polity.
>
>It may be the case that Bangladesh's record is still poorer
>than ours. But that shouldn't be any reason or excuse for _us_
>to feel complacent.
>
>Finally, I find all this emotional talk about "unification"
>to be a complete non-issue as political nation-states have
>become completely irrelevant in the modern age anyway.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
state which has developed People's concept.
The above statistics of reservation shows the pressure of people's
aspirations which a state power had to concede to stay afloat.
Soumitra Bose
In <5bkihj$c...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
Ebar ekta HEnduani r Goppo shonai..
Amar Faridpuri Pishemoshai ekbar chotokale amake bolechilen...
Janos ei Mosla ra kolapatar douggar ulta dike khai, janos ken ? Amra
je thik dike khai , ora tai amogo ulta kam korbo...
Ami : Koi Amago BAri r Contractor Sofi da to thiki dike khai dekhi ..
Pishe: Are amago Sofi to eikhane Bansdronir lok , ora to amago thika
shikse kon ta thik ar konto bhul ...
Ami : Achha Pisha , Tomar oi sidha dikta upor dike thake oi khane bebak
pakhi te haage ar dougga khan benka hoia ultapitha bhangiir moton
dekhai , dal ar mach dile to horhoraiya goraiya poira jai . to ora to
dekhi thikki kore ...
Pishe: Oi beta , tui haalai beshi bojos, ajkalkar polapangula shob
beadop, ojait .hei leiggai to koli juge desher neta thikka kormi hogole
KAkababu lalsalam koi (Muzaffar Ahmed ke ) ..Togo ar ki hoibo.....
Amra ekhon gorbito eishob theke onekta mukto hote perechhi...
Naeem Mohaiemen
Denis Wright wrote:
> =
> sayan bhattacharyya <bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
> =
> > Why aren't voters in Bangladesh rejecting _both_ these
> > alternatives? Why aren't they striving to create a third
> > alternative that will meet the aspirations of the people?
Consider the third party alternatives:
=95Jatiyothabadi Shomajthantrik Dol (JSD)--> Riven by internal conflict,
decades in political wilderness led to top leadership defecting to join
parties in power, etc
=95Bangladesh Shomajthantrik Dol (BSD)--> --do--
=95CPB-->Defections/uniting w Gono Forum
=95Gono Forum--> No grassroots infrastructure, a upper middle-clas
leadership that has visibly failed to shake the stigma of technocracy
[in gram-Bangla, being a technocrat who frequently breaks into English
is not an asset], and seems half-hearted in their political endeavours
If Gono Foumr got serious, perhaps they would have a shot. But the
leadership seems busy w foreign trips for conferences-- a shame because
some of the people who joined actually had potential.
-- =
Naeem Mohaiemen
Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:
>recent pronouncements by Khaleda Zia and
> other party leaders (ie, "masjider bhetore uludhwani"
Interesting.
Where was this printed?
--
Leftist Asians
Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:
> Does anyone have any info on the public reaction to Khaleda's "uludhwani"
> speech in Bangladesh? I read an article on it in The Economist that week,
> and understand Sk Hasina raised the issue at a mass rally the day Jyoti
> Basu left - regrettably in the form of "uttar din - apnara ki masjide
> uludhwani shonen" (followed by the customary "uttar din, amar opor
> apnader biswas achey kina") as opposed to condemning the implications of
> what Khaleda was saying.
Ulu dhoni r religious ramifications ki?
Lutful Bari Bhuiyan
Indeed as Soumitra says, this thread comes up again and again ad-nauseum.
I feel rather skeptic about this whole idea of re-unification. Apart
from the religious differences ( Religion certainly drives powerful
emotions in this part of the world as it does in many other regions I
hasten to add), the differences in culture are enormous. Was it not
GBS who said about England and America being two countries divided by
a common language. The same is equally true here. ! Perhaps one should
concentrate on settling bilateral problems through dialoh gues and
mutual understanding which might improve the conditions of the
teeming millions. The Ganges water agreement is perhaps a good start.
Fair trading arrangements ought to be the next logical step forward.
Happy New Year to all.
Lutful bari Bhuiyan
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <5bhuml$4...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, soum...@ix.netcom.co
says...
>
>
>E proshogye ekta hasshir kotha mone elo .."Uludhon" niye oshikhito
>Chanral Khaledar Gyaner Bohor ta dekhe moja lage. Uludhhonni
>BANGALEERAI ekmatro dei , ekhon Bangalee Hindurai Bharote dei.
>
Does anyone have any info on the public reaction to Khaleda's "uludhwani"
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <32DCE2...@hbo.com>, naeem.m...@hbo.com says...
>>Eta khub mullyoban thottho. AMar jana chilo na.
>Amader egulo jana dorkar, WB the ashole ki hocche.
>
>>Bangladesh ei statistics dekhate paarbe ??
>
Dr Nazrul Islam (from Murshidabad - based in Calcutta University I think)
has done some excellent research on West Bengali Muslims, backed up by
rigid empirical findings. There are at least two publications of his which
deserve particular mention:
"Banglaye hindu musalman samparka" and "Hindu musalman samparka bhala
karar upaye" - the latter is a particularly good primer for those from WB
who know nothing about the history of Bengali Muslims + Bangladesh.
Arnab Gupta
Uch...@btinternet.com (Udayan Chattopadhyay) wrote:
...[deleted]...
>Dr Nazrul Islam (from Murshidabad - based in Calcutta University I think)
>has done some excellent research on West Bengali Muslims, backed up by
>rigid empirical findings. There are at least two publications of his which
>deserve particular mention:
>
>"Banglaye hindu musalman samparka" and "Hindu musalman samparka bhala
>karar upaye" - the latter is a particularly good primer for those from WB
>who know nothing about the history of Bengali Muslims + Bangladesh.
Isn't he the same person who is an IPS and earned fame as an efficeint
and honest officer ? Has he lately joined Calcutta University ?
Thanks,
Arnab.
Soumitra Bose
In <Pine.SOL.3.91.970115190551.15451A-100000@post> Supratik Das
100% sotti, eta pre-muslim culture , Tobe modhyoprachye segulo Islamic
culture gulo accomodate kore nei . Kono ek odbhut karone ota hindukush
porbote eshe atke jai , abar BAnglai seta dekha jai. Shah Jalaler o age
kichu Sufi Santora eshechilen , tanra ashen jolopothe , taader hathc
diyei eshechhe bole onumaan kora hoi.
Soumitra Bose
By no streatchable speculation may my post be never be construed as
some absolutist comment . It is a social phenomenon .And all social
phenomena talk about the general trend.
Were on earth Did I say , ALL the BD intellectuals ???? I said MAny
important intellectuals.....
Some of my friends . .Prof Anu Mohammed ,and others in the Motin
Allaudddin , the great LAte Abdul Huq, Haji Danesh sheikh were epitomes
of Class-consciousness. Concepts of Class-struggle has got nothing to
do with Naxalbari or for that matter any political party . I am now
certain that your own understanding of class-struggle(as evident from
the equation you just struck) is pretty shallow.That is exactly what I
wanted to point out. The history of two bengals were different . I
accepted that the concepts of nationalism and nationality is very
strong in BD than in WB . And that is only natural. THis is not a point
of ego .It is the continuation of the historic culture.
Those who oppose NAxalbari (in your story) do know very well what
class-struggle is and they have taken a decisive stand on one side of
it - the side of parasites.
But your comment is to emotionally charged to find out the historic
reality that has goaded this situation. For an intellectual to know and
appreciate the world situation and the concepts is a duty. If many
intellectuals (e.g The BD "intellectuals" of NY who write in Bangal
papers) do not understand it , it is not their ignorance , it is their
deliberate conspiracy to hoodwink people .That smacks of a parasite
class-interest.
Shamim A. Khandekar
BD has failed to become secular (with no hope of being so in the near
future). As long as it is Islamic (with a strong Islamic bias and
persecution of inorities being rampant) I don't see WB Bengalies wanting to
unite.
Supratik
Islam is itself a secular religion. If the Muslims were intolerant to
the Hindus in Bharat or Indian subcontinent then in 800 yrs of its rule
the majority of the population of present Bharat or India would have been
Muslims. Look at the Bhuddist population in your country. Buddha, son of a
Hindu ruler, whose teachings at that time converted many to Bhuddism but
in course of history they have become insignificant because of
persecutions. The Bhuddist are either chased out to an island, Sri Lanka
or across the Himalayan mountains to the South-East or Far-East of Asia.
BD doen't need your country style secularism. If 10 million Hindus have
left BD, it is their problem. Look at the Muslims in your country, they
know how to fight back. I am now 43, I can hardly think of any Hindu
friend or student who after completing their higher education in BD has
not left his country. Besides the mass exodus of Hindu intellectuals from
East Pakistan in 1947 is not forgotten.
If the Paschim Bongo (WB) has to join the sovereign BD,then inorder to
prove her intentions it has to come out first from present Bharat or
India. As the offer is from your side, my suggestion is that, plan and
take one step at a time to come out of your present flag. In 23 yrs of
greater Pakistan we had East Bengal Regiment. Do you have anything
parallel to this ? Come out with the statistics, who controls the economy
of PB (WB), are the money generated from PB being deposited in the banks
out of your state, how many cinema halls in Calcutta releases Bangla films
only etc.,. ?
The Bengal Muslim League has already shown its leadership and proved
its intentions during the period 1937-47. Now it is the turn of PB
leadership to prove your intententions !! Also find out the roles of the
founding fathers of your country like Nehru, Gandhi, Patel, Menon etc.,.
in opposing the concept of sovereign Bangla in 1947 !!!
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com
Looks like there is a lot of misconception and misinformation being spread on
the Web. The Buddhists in India were not persecuted, it is the non-dogmatic
nature of Hinduism that it accepted Buddha as one of the incarnations in Hindu
Pantheon. So the difference between the Shakya Muni's philosophy and Brahminical
hinduism became fuzzy and ultimately vanished.
With Islam, it was different. Islam is secular, no doubt. But the followers of
Islam don't belieeve in it. Their concepts of Jizya and their tireless efforts
to convert the Dar-ul-Harab ( Land of Non-believers) to the Dar-ul_islam ( Pan-
Islamic State) created a wedge, which caused mass conversions, mostly through
coercion.
However, many Muslims of pre-partition India refused to admit that their descent
was from converts and insisted on their Turkish/Arabic/fantasyland descents.
This led to the Two Nation Theory, born out of bigotry and ignorance .
That BD was born out Pakistan's foolishness does not mean that communal tirades
are acceptable from BD nationals. Indian Union did not and does not enslave us.
It is a bond of mutual understanding and friendship that the diverse states of
the Indian Union has realized and forged into a strong Unity. Have you ever
heard any Hindus who left BD for India complain about being persecuted by other
Indians? But many Biharis, who left India to join Pakistan and are now stranded
in BD have much to complain ! See the difference.
Seceding from the Indian Union is out of the question. What does it offer ? The
abject poverty of BD or the communal hatred that seems now to be so rampant ?
Thought 25 years of freedom would have instilled some secular notions in your
minds ! There are progressive individuals from BD like Naem and Hassan Alam, -
that's the bright lining! But so long as there are professional communal-hatred
spreaders like you around, I guess talking Unity is a dangerous proposition.
Status Quo is Fine. May the Jamaat and the BJP be happy! Let us common
liberal-minded West Bengalis and Bangladeshis go to Hell!
Allah Hafez, Bangladesh Paindabad ! Unity Murdabad!
Jai Hind !
In article <skhandekar-16...@maclab36.utmem.edu>,
Supratik Das
On 16 Jan 1997, Lutful Bari Bhuiyan wrote:
> I feel rather skeptic about this whole idea of re-unification. Apart
> from the religious differences ( Religion certainly drives powerful
> emotions in this part of the world as it does in many other regions I
> hasten to add), the differences in culture are enormous. Was it not
So what you are saying is that Ramratan Bhuiyan of West Bengal is
culturally very diferent from Lutful Bari Bhuiyan of Bangladesh. That's a
revelation. I guess the Jamaat would love your comment.
> Lutful bari Bhuiyan
Supratik
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:
> Dr Nazrul Islam (from Murshidabad - based in Calcutta University I think)
> has done some excellent research on West Bengali Muslims, backed up by
> rigid empirical findings. There are at least two publications of his which
> deserve particular mention:
>
> "Banglaye hindu musalman samparka" and "Hindu musalman samparka bhala
> karar upaye" - the latter is a particularly good primer for those from WB
> who know nothing about the history of Bengali Muslims + Bangladesh.
Excellent reference.
Dr. Nazrul Islam is also a very responsible police officer who is widely
known for his anti-corruption measures. He has also written about the
problem of corruption in the administration and the force, and what he
had been through.
A Ph.D. in Bengali Literature from Calcutta University, this
multi-faceted personality is also a short-story writer.
But Udayan, I haven't read the books you mentioned. Do you know where to
find them (publishers etc.?)
Shoumyo.
Naeem Mohaiemen
Shamim A. Khandekar wrote:
> BD doen't need your country style secularism. If 10 million Hindus have
> left BD, it is their problem.
I disagree.
If 10 million Bengali Hindus left Bangladesh, it's the problem that both
Muslim and Hindu Bengalis should care about.
Newamul K Khan
<snip>
: If there were ever a chance of the two Bengals uniting etc, such an event
: would have to overcome the sentiments of both the Supratiks and the
: Shamims. Since they do seem to be present in large numbers and always
: ready to accentuate the negatives at the cost of the positives, I don't
: see the prospects of a United Bengal as very bright.
<snip>
I'm a Bengali raised in the US, born in Bangladesh. I also follow
neither Islam nor Hinduism (so perhaps I can somewhat distance myself
from religious biases? ;).
I don't see Bangladesh and West Bengal coming together for a variety of
regions. Both Social AND Economic.
First, let me point out that all idealism aside, Bangladesh is dirt poor,
and any unification scenario would create an imbalanced
situation...although West Bengal isn't any paragon of development or
modernizatin, Bangladesh is synonomous with the fourth world.
Second, the religious difference I believe is not surmountable (I
conclude this from the perspective of an irreligous person who has
watched Muslims and Hindus interract and read a bit about the
relationship between Muslims and Hindus in old East Bengal). If you
notice the % of religious believers in India and Bangladesh, they are
the inverse of each. 80-85% vs 10-15% Hindu-Muslim or Muslim-Hindu. If
you had a UNITED BENGAL, you'd have around 70% Muslims, and 30%
Hindus...I am not sure that you could have such a situation without
religious conflict. In the present situation, each area controlled
by different governments has a religious minority, but a rather small
one that doesn't cause much trouble or at least is not powerfull enough
to exert itself in any great fashion.
I suspect that a UNITED BENGAL where Muslims are the majority, but
not overwhelmingly so, would cause tensions. I doubt you could have an
Islamic Republic or any such thing (the example of Malaysia aside, since
there the Malays dominate so totally politically) when such a large
percentage of the populace is not Muslim.
I also suspect this yearning for a greater Bangladesh is fueled mostly by
expats who are a bit distanced from the situation...
--
Razib
Sugato Bhattacharyya
In article <skhandekar-17...@maclab36.utmem.edu>,
skhan...@utmem1.utmem.edu (Shamim A. Khandekar) wrote:
>BD has failed to become secular (with no hope of being so in the near
>future). As long as it is Islamic (with a strong Islamic bias and
>persecution of inorities being rampant) I don't see WB Bengalies wanting to
>unite.
>
>
>Supratik
>
>
>Reply:
>
>
>
> Islam is itself a secular religion.
What, exactly, is a secular religion? It seems that you have your concepts
of religion and secularism rather confused. Its hard to take your
arguments seriously after such an opening statement.
If the Muslims were intolerant to
>the Hindus in Bharat or Indian subcontinent then in 800 yrs of its rule
>the majority of the population of present Bharat or India would have been
>Muslims. Look at the Bhuddist population in your country. Buddha, son of a
>Hindu ruler, whose teachings at that time converted many to Bhuddism but
>in course of history they have become insignificant because of
>persecutions. The Bhuddist are either chased out to an island, Sri Lanka
>or across the Himalayan mountains to the South-East or Far-East of Asia.
Aside from the merits of demerits of Islamic rule in India, one should
point out that your analysis of the demise of Buddhism in India is rather
novel (Unbiased textbooks in elementary schools, must be). Again, such
analyses act as severe disincentives to get into a facts based argument.
> If 10 million Hindus have
>left BD, it is their problem.
Way to go, man! I'm sure that the BJP in India would be happy to offer you
an honorary membership.
If there were ever a chance of the two Bengals uniting etc, such an event
would have to overcome the sentiments of both the Supratiks and the
Shamims. Since they do seem to be present in large numbers and always
ready to accentuate the negatives at the cost of the positives, I don't
see the prospects of a United Bengal as very bright.
--
Sugato Bhattacharyya
Supratik Das
On 17 Jan 1997, Shamim A. Khandekar wrote:
> BD doen't need your country style secularism. If 10 million Hindus have
> left BD, it is their problem. Look at the Muslims in your country, they
> know how to fight back. I am now 43, I can hardly think of any Hindu
> friend or student who after completing their higher education in BD has
> not left his country. Besides the mass exodus of Hindu intellectuals from
> East Pakistan in 1947 is not forgotten.
> If the Paschim Bongo (WB) has to join the sovereign BD,then inorder to
> prove her intentions it has to come out first from present Bharat or
> India. As the offer is from your side, my suggestion is that, plan and
> take one step at a time to come out of your present flag. In 23 yrs of
> greater Pakistan we had East Bengal Regiment. Do you have anything
> parallel to this ? Come out with the statistics, who controls the economy
> of PB (WB), are the money generated from PB being deposited in the banks
> out of your state, how many cinema halls in Calcutta releases Bangla films
> only etc.,. ?
> The Bengal Muslim League has already shown its leadership and proved
> its intentions during the period 1937-47. Now it is the turn of PB
> leadership to prove your intententions !! Also find out the roles of the
> founding fathers of your country like Nehru, Gandhi, Patel, Menon etc.,.
> in opposing the concept of sovereign Bangla in 1947 !!!
Khaishey, apney ki Jamaati.
sayan bhattacharyya
Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Besides the point . Indian state is no people's state . It is not a
>state which has developed People's concept.
Agreed, except for the fact that I think "people's state" is an oxymoron.
Once power devolves to the people, there can indeed be no State (in the
current sense of the word) , because devolution of power to the people will
be accompanied by the withering away of the State (or at least the institutions
we recognize as constituting the State today).
Shoumyo Dasgupta
sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> <asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Looks like there is a lot of misconception and misinformation being spread on
> >the Web. The Buddhists in India were not persecuted, it is the non-dogmatic
> >nature of Hinduism that it accepted Buddha as one of the incarnations in Hindu
> >Pantheon. So the difference between the Shakya Muni's philosophy and Brahminical
>
> persecuted Buddhists and destroyed Buddhist monasteries.
>
> You can also read Tagore's "Notir Puja" for other examples of persecution
> of Buddhists by Hindu kings. Although NP is fiction, Tagore took the story
> from historical texts.
"Ajaatshotru raja holo jobey pitaar ashone ashi
Pitar dhormo shoNiter srotey
Muchchiya phelilo raajpuri hotey
ShNopilo jogno onol alotey
Boudhdho shastrorashi..."
- Rabindranath
Shamim A. Khandekar
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970117175541.813B-100000@post>, Supratik Das
<d...@aecom.yu.edu> wrote:
Religiuosly the name, Ramratan Bhuyian of West Bengal, it seems that he
is a Hindu, if that is so, then he is a polytheist and of Bharat or Indian
nationality..
As regards, Lutful Bari Bhuiyan of Bangladesh, the name suggests that
he is a Muslim, then he is a monotheist.
There are many food items which Muslims are forbidden to eat so is true
for the Hindus. Hindus have "..baro mashee baro parban.." which is not
true for Muslims. Therefore, you cannot deny the influence of religion on
culture. Just because we speak in a common language does not mean that we
are culturally the same.
sayan bhattacharyya
Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.m...@homebox.com> wrote:
>asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
>
>>Have you ever
>> heard any Hindus who left BD for India complain about being persecuted by other
>> Indians?
Apurba,
It depends on what you call "discrimination". Official discrimination
against them certainly does not exist, but it is also a fact that many
West-Bengali-born-and-bred ghoTis, especially of the older generation,
harbor resentment against the "bangals" whom they see as interlopers in
their native territory, and are jealous of the success that many of the
immigrants have achieved through hard work and dynamism.
I come from a ghoTi family, and I have personally seen many of my
ghoTi relatives make completely unfounded and uncharitable comments
about "bangal"s -- namely that they are pushy, unscrupulous, mean
and so forth (none of which is true). Accept it, Apurba -- tribalism
is unfortunately a part of every human society in the current age,
and West Bengalis are not free from it either (fortunately this is
changing in our generation).
Shamim A. Khandekar
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970117222704.13888A-100000@post>, Supratik Das
<d...@aecom.yu.edu> wrote:
> On 17 Jan 1997, Shamim A. Khandekar wrote:
>
> > BD doen't need your country style secularism. If 10 million Hindus have
> > left BD, it is their problem. Look at the Muslims in your country, they
> > know how to fight back.
> > If the Paschim Bongo (WB) has to join the sovereign BD,then inorder to
> > prove her intentions it has to come out first from present Bharat or
> > India.
>
>
> Khaishey, apney ki Jamaati.
Na ami Jamati na. Tabee, apnar mate amil holiee ki take apni Jamati
bole shambhodon karen ? Apni Lutful Bari shaebkeo aki khata balechen.
Nishchooy vabchen je Jamati bole SCBr kichu phataker kach teke
shahanivooty paben. Apnar buddhi ke tarif na kore parchi na.
Apni amar kono prashneri jabab den nai. Tai dhore nichhi apni apnar
Bharat Matake khub valobashen. Apnar pichone apnar desher ? ashi koti
deshbashi
achee !!!
Devadatta Mukutmoni
In article <skhandekar-17...@maclab36.utmem.edu> skhan...@utmem1.utmem.edu (Shamim A. Khandekar) writes:
> Islam is itself a secular religion. If the Muslims were intolerant to
>the Hindus in Bharat or Indian subcontinent then in 800 yrs of its rule
>the majority of the population of present Bharat or India would have been
>Muslims.
This is garbage. It is fair to say, that they tried their damnest
to convert but failed. There are just too many examples of massacres,
temple destruction etc to support your thesis. But, at least they
converted 25% of the population, a no mean achievement. In contrast,
the christian missionaries through their more peaceful methods, could
manage only 2%.
Look at the Bhuddist population in your country. Buddha, son of a
>Hindu ruler, whose teachings at that time converted many to Bhuddism but
>in course of history they have become insignificant because of
>persecutions. The Bhuddist are either chased out to an island, Sri Lanka
>or across the Himalayan mountains to the South-East or Far-East of Asia.
There is no record of any persecution.
On the other hand, the large scale killing of Buddhists in Afghanistan
by the muslims is only too well known. You need to read up on your
history.
> BD doen't need your country style secularism. If 10 million Hindus have
>left BD, it is their problem. Look at the Muslims in your country, they
>know how to fight back. I am now 43, I can hardly think of any Hindu
>friend or student who after completing their higher education in BD has
>not left his country. Besides the mass exodus of Hindu intellectuals from
>East Pakistan in 1947 is not forgotten.
What?
> If the Paschim Bongo (WB) has to join the sovereign BD,then inorder to
>prove her intentions it has to come out first from present Bharat or
>India. As the offer is from your side, my suggestion is that, plan and
>take one step at a time to come out of your present flag. In 23 yrs of
>greater Pakistan we had East Bengal Regiment. Do you have anything
>parallel to this ? Come out with the statistics, who controls the economy
>of PB (WB), are the money generated from PB being deposited in the banks
>out of your state, how many cinema halls in Calcutta releases Bangla films
>only etc.,. ?
I do not think the number of Bengalis in India who would want to
join Bangladesh would exceed 1%.
--
Devadatta Mukutmoni
e-mail: mu...@panix.com
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <32DE3A...@hbo.com>, naeem.m...@hbo.com says...
>
>Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:
(ie, "masjider bhetore uludhwani"
>
>Interesting.
>
>Where was this printed?
>
>--
>Naeem Mohaiemen
>HBO Interactive Media
Widely publicised just before Jyoti Basu's visit. I'm afraid I no longer
have hard copy of the BD publications - The Economist write up would have
been around November 15/22. This paraphrased Khaleda's speeches (she had
made quite a lot in the run up to JB's visit) and carried with it the
comment that she was unwise to do this, since communal sentiments were not
taken lightly in BD. To be honest, without having seen the write-up in The
Economist I would never have believed that Khaleda could have made such an
outrageous statement.
Hasina's response was to re-iterate AL's Islamic credentials - headlines I
remember from the BD press of the time include quotes from her on the
lines of "kono musalmaner mukh theke bismillah kere newa jay na". The WB
media was full of speculation that Khaleda timed her Saudi Arabian medical
trip to avoid having to confront JB after her speeches on the "uludhwani"
issue.
Goyeshwar Chandra Ray (rising BNP star) is one to watch for amusement. He
followed Khaleda with a speech arguing that Hasina was bringing back
"jamidar pratha" by attempting a deal on Farakka (again - sorry, no dates,
references - you'll have to rely on my memory. I'll try and dig out some
concrete references to pre-empt flames).
Lutful Bari Bhuiyan
I am glad to see that Dr. harunuzzaman and I are on the same wavelength
on the issue of reunification of two Bengals. (See my posting elsewhere
on the original thred [Dad in scb).
It is certainly true that very often ignorance, bias stemming from
communal feelings are the roots of anti-Indian prejudice. This culture
can only change over time through more openness, fair trading
arrangements (this point indeed can't be stressed enough), and greater
understanding.
Lutful Bari Bhuiyan
sayan bhattacharyya
Soumitra Bose
In <5bqsp8$kee$1...@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> Lutful Bari Bhuiyan
There should be corporations and organisations across the border.THough
I have no positive feelings about BEXIMCO , yet it is laudable that
BEXIMCO is trying to open offices and activities in Wbengal. BEtter
fewer than nothing.
Soumitra Bose
In <skhandekar-18...@maclab36.utmem.edu>>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970117175541.813B-100000@post>, Supratik Das
I have absolutely no DILCHAST in religious debate or affiliation. I
consider organized religions to be the worst possible inventions of
human beings , but let me oppose certain facts of your statements. If
factually you are wrong , you loose the credibility and your spirit
looses the necessary respect that you want it to hold.
Hinduism is no religion , it is a diaspora of many religions and
non-rleigious philosophies and cultures ,all of which sprang from
India.
NO religion within the Hindu diaspora is POLYTHEISTIC. You have to
understand and study some of the religions within that Diaspora . The
definition of Polytheism does not corroborate the Philosophies behind
the various religions of the diaspora. Upanishad can be construed to be
a near compilation of all the philosophies of the various schools of
diaspora. IT is MONISTIC , IT IS NOT IDOL-WORSHIPPING . The various
gods within this diaspora are just forms and re-incarnations of the
SAME , the one THE NIRGUNA SAT-CHIT-ANANDA , the one which do have no
form , no definition . As a matter of fact the ONLY REALITY that is
accepted throughout the diaspora is BRAHMA , which is nothing but a
pure collective consciousness.
There is a lot to learn within the Oriental religions in form and
essence. All the oriental philosophies and even the NAtive American
religions(only left out being the Semite group- the trio) deals with
this transcendence from external forms to the UNDIVIDED NIRGUNA
NIRBIKOLPO ESSENCE.
Second Fault in your argument ...
BAro MAshe BAro Parbon , is wrong .. it is BAro MAshe Tero PArbon
.... And these parbons are not Hindu parbons , they are pretty general
, some of them are like Poush mela, Poila Boishakh etc. Well, Pakistan
Movement stopped Poush MEla in Bangladesh.....Pretty sad....
The Hindu name could have been some one in BAngladesh and the Muslim
Name could have been from West Bengal or Bengal ...So even there you
are way off the factual aspect....
To sum up if you have either fear of competition of hatred towards
others or ignorance about "other cultures" or religions , there is only
one solace , and that is to live in a world of fact-denial
Supratic Gupta
Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
>
> Supratic Gupta wrote:
>
> > Indian bengalis, including me, have no love lost for BD, but not at the
> > cost of us leaving India.
>
> Wonder if you represent majority of Bengalis?
Naeem,
Why don't you speak directly. If you think it is bad, wrong tell it.
But not one liner. tell us why you think this is wrong. Everyone has
right to
see what benifits him maximum. Every has to ensure his own interest.
Sincerely, I have nothing against BD. I always support full friendship
with BD,
free trade, cross-border trade. People should be allowed to move freely,
but
accountability should be there. People should have identity cards. The
migrations
should be legal. Like people of NE can travel through BD there by
generating Tax
for Bd and relieve NE of the burden of going arround BD to reach its
destination.
But, but, no way I would like to leave the federation of India to join
BD.
Call it selfish, but that is reality.
Gupta
Supratic Gupta
Naeem,
I understand your feeling. Try to understand my sincere feeling.
Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
>
> asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
>
> >Have you ever
> > heard any Hindus who left BD for India complain about being persecuted by other
> > Indians? But many Biharis, who left India to join Pakistan and are now stranded
> > in BD have much to complain !
I accept this is not acceptable argument against our wish of not joining
you.
(I deleted your valid arguments because I accept you are correct)
> > Seceding from the Indian Union is out of the question. What does it offer ? The
> > abject poverty of BD or the communal hatred that seems now to be so rampant ?
No, that is too selfish. Even if BD was suffering, that cannot be the
reason
to reject them. I think it is more because I feel that we are going to
loose
a lot by ;eaving India and we can do a lot even though we stay seperate
(more like we can serve our country even though we don't return to our
country).
>
> 1) We do not have "abject poverty". You should research success stories
> such as:
> Grameen Bank
> BRAC
> UBINIG
> Prabarthana
> Asha
> DRIK (http://www.drik.org)
> PEREGRINE
> Grameen Cell Phone (coming soon!)
> ..etc
>
> Before making such a generalization.
I take back his words.
>
> 2)"Communal hatred rampant"? Not so. I suggest you look to more
> sources than SCB, and Indian papers to get a better understanding of
> what is actually happening
> -A few BNP, JP, Jamaat's loony statements [excluding AL, because at
> leats they have not made any overt communal statement]
> -TIME?NEWSWEEK etc blind coverage
> -Taslima Nasreen's alarmist and exaggerated lit
> ..does not constitute the reality of Bangladesh.
>
> Majority of Bangladeshis, especially common people, remain anti-communal
> and tolerant/celebratory of all religious groups.
Even if this is true, that is not sufficient. The fact is that we don't
know
enough about each other. First the trust has to be built and then
anything
can be talked about. This step's responsibility lies on both.
>
>
> > Thought 25 years of freedom would have instilled some secular notions in your
> > minds !
>
> They have. If you are using a few loony-tune postings on SCB to form
> your opinion on Bangladesh-- making a big mistake. Suggest you buy a
> plane ticket, visit Bangladesh for a month, and make up your own mind.
I visited Bangladesh for a day. I meet many many BDs here.
I tell you I liked B. They treated me well. But that cannot be the
only factor.
>
> I challenge you to find:
> -abject poverty
> -rampant communal hatred
> -lack of secular notions
I would say, I would not attempt to find that out. I would leave it to
you to prove it. Like bring out Bengali Hindus to support you.
>
> > Status Quo is Fine.
>
> No
I accept it is not good. We need to act. My question is what steps?
>
> >May the Jamaat and the BJP be happy!
>
> No, let them be unhappy. Make them unhappy. SCB the boshe ha-hutash
> korle hobe na. Math-e neme kaj korun!
Agreed. We all are acting in our own ways. I you have any suggestion,
please
tell us.
I will tell you what I feel.
--------------------------------------------
Most Bangladeshi people feel that it would be better to unite. But it is
a reality
that most Indian bengalis don't agree to it. Doesnot mean they don't
care about
BD. We don't know about BD. I am from Assam. I always agure people that
only way we
can survive is by interacting with the geograhpically nearest people.
For Assam
that is BD, not west Bengal. For Manipur that is Burma, not WB.
I propose that we take the following as the first step
a) Start cultural exchange programs
b) Start inter-border trade
c) Get every citizen of the two countries identity card and
allow free movement, and trade rights
By these steps, we all will learn more about each other.
We would get better understanding and faith in each other.
The question of physical unit will become redundent then.
What is wrong in this approach.
What we are asking you is to address the broader defination of
countries.
That would unite us in all sences. But asking us to seperate from India
and join you will not solve anything. It is impractical and not
acceptable.
Asking these questions only leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
I would be prepared to be best of friend , best of a brother first.
Let us be that first. Then let us talk of unity. Not the reverse way.
first let us play the uniting steps, then talk of unity.
Supratic Gupta
Soumitra Bose
In <5bqntt$bko$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu> bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu
You are right ,WITHERING is no ANNIHILATION though .Think of the
interim period.
We create institutions so that a day would come when no institutions
are needed. We take up arms so that one day arms would be superflous ,
we create a state so that no state would ever be on earth .....
Georgi Lukacs...
Hassan Alam
Supratic Gupta (gu...@doboku2.ace.nitech.ac.jp) wrote:
: Soumitra Bose wrote:
: >
: > In <32DAD8...@doboku2.ace.nitech.ac.jp> Supratic Gupta
: > <gu...@doboku2.ace.nitech.ac.jp> writes:
: > >
It seems your ability to attach statment with authors is about
as accurate as your desire for communal harmony - very poor.
: > >Hassan Alam wrote:
: the question by Hassan Alam was:
: "Many words have been said and posted in these newsgroups. I was
: wondering
: why the Bengalis on both sides of the "Border" don't stand up and raise
: their voices in support of uniting the two Bengals ?
: The language is the same, the food habits are the same ,- why should
: religion be the basis of this artificial divide ? I am sure people
: of both sides , with very cultured upbringings, are not fanatic zealots
: !!
: Let's hear some positive comments from some non-communal Bengalis
: and Indians at large !"
: (Or was it by -Apurba Krishna Sircar)
: > India is a concept of Unity .A concept of the possibility and success
: > of unifying various divesities.
: I was not talking of India. I was talking of Bangladesh.
: >Yes, ther are problems , but there are
: > conscious people to solve it.We have solved it, we are going to
: > solve.
: True.
: >MAy be,as the trend goes , we will become a wonderful federation
: > one day, but why should we leave this Jonmobhumi. We have a country of
: > all of us .Not of Hindus,Not of Muslims , not of any one race or
: > religions.We are a conglomerate .We would strive for futher unity . We
: > do not want a country cut out on religious or linguistic basis and then
: > become impoverished and corrupt and un-managable .
: True, all these are beautiful words. Not all people are as lucky as
: Jyoti Bose whose house was preserved.
: There is a big, yes very very big population that had migrated to Assam
: and NE.
: And that has already happened, you cannot change it.
: >We are here to
: > develop with all of us .We love to play the love-hate game with other
: > nationalities . It is pretty fun that we hate each other , we reidicule
: > each other but at the same time we lay down our lives for each other
: > when some alien threatens us. During BAngladesh war the whole of Indian
: > Populace regardless of language and religion sacrificed . We know how
: > to live together even when we fight and compete and cut jokes on each
: > other . We gave our blood and sweat for Bharotvarsha , we want the
: > whole of it . It is our Bharotvarsha , all of us belong to it , all of
: > us own it , all of us live for it , all of us die for it . LEt there be
: > differences , that is the spice , that is the charm . We would remain
: > united and we would unite others ,not by force but by people's
: > collective will and wisdom.
: To be short, I am not sure what you are trying to say. If you are saying
: that you are trying to make BD join a federation with India, fine. That
: is
: well and good for me. I get a transit facility to travel from Calcutta
: to Guwahati.
: It decreases my expenditure in many ways.
: What I said was, in this concept of Country, where there is a rigid
: concept
: of Boundary, the unity is not possible. Basically BD would never join
: India,
: Bengalis would never leave India.
: Hence better is, don't use the words like BD joining India. Rather say
: all of us join each other to form a federation to at least give transit
: facility to the suffering people in the North East.
: That would ensure cultural exchange, and healthy buisness.
: Supratic Gupta
--
Hassan Alam
Sunil Gokhale
In article <5brvmj$4...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
... Other portions of a good post deleted.
>Upanishad can be construed to be
>a near compilation of all the philosophies of the various schools of
>diaspora. IT is MONISTIC , IT IS NOT IDOL-WORSHIPPING .
Soumitra, a number of people would disagree with your first sentence
above, but I won't get into that. I will restrict myself to the second
sentence. It is factually correct. But I hope you don't want to suggest
that image worship is a lower form of worship.
sunil
Sunil Gokhale
In article <SKhandekar-19...@maclab1.utmem.edu>,
Shamim A. Khandekar <SKhan...@utmem1.utmem.edu> wrote:
>>
>> point out that your analysis of the demise of Buddhism in India is rather
>> novel (Unbiased textbooks in elementary schools, must be).
>
> You are playing the role of a true Brahman. In near future we will have
>to dig the history books to find out the interactions between the Hindus
>and the Bhuddists in the past in the Sub-Continent.
That means all this while you were talking WITHOUT looking
at history books? That figures.
Why 'near future'? Go right ahead. Dig it up now, please.
Supratic Gupta
Sugato Bhattacharyya
In article <SKhandekar-19...@maclab1.utmem.edu>,
SKhan...@utmem1.utmem.edu (Shamim A. Khandekar) wrote:
> You are playing the role of a true Brahman.
It looks like some non-hindus are more caste-conscious than most of the
hindus in West Bengal. Add that to the list of factors that argue against
unification: people with no rational defence to offer regarding their wild
claims who fall back on calling out the historical caste affiliations of
others who find their arguments without foundation.
--
Sugato Bhattacharyya
Shamim A. Khandekar
> point out that your analysis of the demise of Buddhism in India is rather
> novel (Unbiased textbooks in elementary schools, must be).
You are playing the role of a true Brahman. In near future we will have
to dig the history books to find out the interactions between the Hindus
and the Bhuddists in the past in the Sub-Continent.
I don't
> see the prospects of a United Bengal as very bright.
>
> --
> Sugato Bhattacharyya
I don't
> see the prospects of a United Bengal as very bright- never under the
flag of present Bharat or India.
Soumitra Bose
In <5bra27$f...@panix2.panix.com> mu...@panix.com (Devadatta Mukutmoni)
writes:
>
>In article <skhandekar-17...@maclab36.utmem.edu>
The last point is pertinent. After the way BAngladesh has successfully
shown to the world How not to run a country , and How not to deal with
the education and intellectual policy and How not to deal with people's
belief . I would be very surprised if 1% figure is achievable .And that
too among any community. How about asking the West-bengal Muslims , if
they would like to break out of India and join Bangladesh. In that case
they would have crossed over long ago. After Independance and partition
how many muslims have crossed over to Bangladesh( a very unfortunate
indident happened in 1964. Most of them have already got back to
reclaim properties in West Bengal in addition to theirs at BAngladesh -
glaring example Ekhlasuddin Ahmed and Prof Anisuzzaman . Both of them
have now properties in Calcutta and PRof Anisuzzaman is the Director of
MAulana Azad Institute of South Asian Studies of Calcutta).
If BAngladesh is just a machine to vandalize the economy and wealth and
intellectual and education standard, then the prime duty of all
BEngalees(of both the bengals) would be to endeavour to set the record
right. False ego can only buggerize the matter even further.
Zaki Wahhaj
> > If the Paschim Bongo (WB) has to join the sovereign BD,then inorder to
> >prove her intentions it has to come out first from present Bharat or
> >India.
>
> join Bangladesh would exceed 1%.
>
need you, its you who need us.." sort of thing. I, for on, am very curious
about West Bengal, and am sure there are others like me on the other side
of the border. Now, the consequences of and efforts required for a
unification of the two Bengals are unknown to me. But I don't see any harm
in greater media interaction, i.e. a greater availability of WB
newspapers, magazines, books, television shows, etc. in BD and vice versa.
This will be an easy and effective step (but admittedly only of interest
to the elitist class).
-Zaki
Soumitra Bose
In <5btoe7$u...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> sung...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Sunil
I have no intention of putting any kind of worship into any scale ...I
was stating facts...
Soumitra Bose
In <32E1D4...@doboku2.ace.nitech.ac.jp> Supratic Gupta
Could not agree more than the last paragraph of yours . You put it in
more politically correct terms.
Supratic Gupta
Shamim A. Khandekar wrote:
> Islam is itself a secular religion.
yes and no, I guess, depending on the defination.
> If the Muslims were intolerant to
> the Hindus in Bharat or Indian subcontinent then in 800 yrs of its rule
> the majority of the population of present Bharat or India would have been
> Muslims.
That is impossible you know. I believe like Hindu propagadists are
wrong in saying that there were forceful conversion to Islam, you are
equally wrong in saying that it is possible.
Killing such a big population is next to impossible. They would
invariable
bump into a beutiful girl and say, well let us not kill this
one.(joking).
> Look at the Bhuddist population in your country. Buddha, son of a
> Hindu ruler, whose teachings at that time converted many to Bhuddism but
> in course of history they have become insignificant because of
> persecutions.
This is totally false. Budhisim didnot survive because people were
not satisfied with it. It had no festival. More over people were
not convinced that it was a seperate religion as Budhisim really
exist inside Hinduisim too. Hindus respect Budha equally.
>The Bhuddist are either chased out to an island, Sri Lanka
> or across the Himalayan mountains to the South-East or Far-East of Asia.
Can you tell us when this happened? Or are you just guessing because
there
are budhist in the other side of Himalaya, Sri Lanka, Burma?
> BD doen't need your country style secularism.
Fine who asked you to have it? Look, we Bengali Indians never said
we want unity. What we said is we want friendship.
>If 10 million Hindus have
> left BD, it is their problem.
True, it is our problem, and your good luck.
>Look at the Muslims in your country, they
> know how to fight back. I am now 43, I can hardly think of any Hindu
> friend or student who after completing their higher education in BD has
> not left his country. Besides the mass exodus of Hindu intellectuals from
> East Pakistan in 1947 is not forgotten.
That is good news. But all Hindus that I meet here complain.
> If the Paschim Bongo (WB) has to join the sovereign BD,then inorder to
> prove her intentions it has to come out first from present Bharat or
> India.
Thanks, forget it. We have no intention of trying prove ourself.
Let us forget unity.
Eishob kotha bole mukh Nosto korchen keno?
Why are you creating a bad taste in your mouth by asking this type of
question?
>As the offer is from your side, my suggestion is that, plan and
> take one step at a time to come out of your present flag.
No, the offer is not from our side.
>In 23 yrs of
> greater Pakistan we had East Bengal Regiment. Do you have anything
> parallel to this ?
Now, that is hieght. Why do you want to go to this I better then you
game?
>Come out with the statistics, who controls the economy
> of PB (WB), are the money generated from PB being deposited in the banks
> out of your state, how many cinema halls in Calcutta releases Bangla films
> only etc.,. ?
Agreed , we don't give so much respect to Bengali as you do. So what?
We have our problems that you don't have.
> The Bengal Muslim League has already shown its leadership and proved
> its intentions during the period 1937-47. Now it is the turn of PB
> leadership to prove your intententions !! Also find out the roles of the
> founding fathers of your country like Nehru, Gandhi, Patel, Menon etc.,.
> in opposing the concept of sovereign Bangla in 1947 !!!
Even if Bengal would have remained united, and joined Pakistan, an
Islamic Republic,
even as according to Islam if would have protected me, kept me with all
the adventages,
I would have still left the country, because I am a guest, not one of
you. Either better
or worse, but notequal. I cannot be the leader of the state by law.
Hence I would leave Bengal. Call me Namakharam or what ever, that is
reality.
Supratic Gupta
Supratic Gupta
Devadatta Mukutmoni wrote:
>
> In article <skhandekar-17...@maclab36.utmem.edu> skhan...@utmem1.utmem.edu (Shamim A. Khandekar) writes:
> >the Hindus in Bharat or Indian subcontinent then in 800 yrs of its rule
> >the majority of the population of present Bharat or India would have been
> >Muslims.
>
> to convert but failed. There are just too many examples of massacres,
> temple destruction etc to support your thesis. But, at least they
> converted 25% of the population, a no mean achievement. In contrast,
> the christian missionaries through their more peaceful methods, could
> manage only 2%.
If what you say is true, then after force is removed reconversion
should occur. But it is not happening.
Yes, muslims rullers did bad things. This they did because they got
frustrated that why just 25% not more. It is mostly the depreived class
that converted. Surely they converted by free will.
If Christians would have reached India earlier then Islam with force,
who knows what would have happened.
Christians failed to covert Japan, but they had a revolutionary effect
on Japanese society. many eveils of the society was indeed removed,
compulsary education was started.
> I do not think the number of Bengalis in India who would want to
> join Bangladesh would exceed 1%.
1%?
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com
In article <5brb7m$3nk$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>,
bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) wrote:
>
> Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.m...@homebox.com> wrote:
>
> >asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
> >
> >>Have you ever
> >> heard any Hindus who left BD for India complain about being persecuted by other
> >> Indians?
>
>
> It depends on what you call "discrimination". Official discrimination
> against them certainly does not exist, but it is also a fact that many
> West-Bengali-born-and-bred ghoTis, especially of the older generation,
> harbor resentment against the "bangals" whom they see as interlopers in
> their native territory, and are jealous of the success that many of the
> immigrants have achieved through hard work and dynamism.
>
> I come from a ghoTi family, and I have personally seen many of my
> ghoTi relatives make completely unfounded and uncharitable comments
> about "bangal"s -- namely that they are pushy, unscrupulous, mean
> and so forth (none of which is true). Accept it, Apurba -- tribalism
> is unfortunately a part of every human society in the current age,
> and West Bengalis are not free from it either (fortunately this is
> changing in our generation).
I would definitely agree with you on the Ghoti-Bangal eternal conflict, since
technically I am a Bangal by origin. However, what I was, and still am ,
stressing on is the fact that Hindu expatriates from Bangladesh/East Pakistan
like my parents never faced opression or trauma(resentment from Ghotis,maybe!
;-) ) from Hindus in Bengal or from elsewhere in India,in their conscious
efforts to rebuild a lost world of peace and prosperity. Instead , they were
embraced with open arms and imparted moral support. Compare this with the plight
of the Biharis in Bangladeh or Mohajirs in Pakistan. Their friends in deed are
now turning a strabismatic eye to these friends now in dire need.
-Apurba
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
: I would definitely agree with you on the Ghoti-Bangal eternal conflict, since
: technically I am a Bangal by origin. However, what I was, and still am ,
: stressing on is the fact that Hindu expatriates from Bangladesh/East Pakistan
: like my parents never faced opression or trauma(resentment from Ghotis,maybe!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: ;-) ) from Hindus in Bengal or from elsewhere in India,in their conscious
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your above statement is certainly not true for Assam and Orissa. I grew
up in Assam and my roots are in Sylhet. In Brahmaputra valley there was
definite discrimination. In Orissa, refugees were fired upon.
Ironically, a Bengali was the Chief Minister of Orissa at that time
(Biswanath Mitra or Moitra?-Ref. the famous novel on two Bengals by Sunil
Gangopadhyay-the name escapes me right now). Also remember that the
refugee rehabilitation effort for Bengali refugees were very meagre and
most of these resources were spent on refugees from West pakistan
(Source:"The Agony of West Bengal" by Ranjit Roy). The Bengali refugees
did establish themselves through their grit and work. But it will be
wrong to say that they did not face discrimination.
: efforts to rebuild a lost world of peace and prosperity. Instead , they were
: embraced with open arms and imparted moral support. Compare this with the plight
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In West Bengal, the 'ghotis' were resentful. The Govt. of course did not
discriminate. However, Governmental discrimination was evident in Assam,
Orissa and Central Govt. Partition was a trajedy. Let us learn from it
and not romanticise it.
: of the Biharis in Bangladeh or Mohajirs in Pakistan. Their friends in deed are
: now turning a strabismatic eye to these friends now in dire need.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Supratik Das
On 18 Jan 1997, Shamim A. Khandekar wrote:
> > Khaishey, apney ki Jamaati.
> Na ami Jamati na. Tabee, apnar mate amil holiee ki take apni Jamati
> bole shambhodon karen ? Apni Lutful Bari shaebkeo aki khata balechen.
Lutfulke aki kotha bolini. Apni jodi Bangali Mussalmaner recent itihas
poren tobe dekhben there is a constant effort on the part of pan-Islamists
to foster a seperate identity on the Bengali Muslims from that of the
Hindus. This is the psychology which was behind the creation of Pakistan
and the Muslim League and Jamaat were proponents of that theory. Believe
me if 99% of Bengali Muslims look at the mirror they wouldn't see the
features of any Afghan, Turk or Arab but probably the same as his Hindu
neighbor. Apnar kothar songe Jamaat/Leaguer netader kothar onek mil achey
tai sondeho hoi. Sudhumatro Arab naam o riti bebohar korei ki seperate
identity create kora jai? Oi gulo jhere felle dekhben kono tofat nei. Aar
roilo dhormo. Ta bharotborsho/bangladeshe dhormor boichitro borabori
chilo, ota notun kono byapar noi and shouldn't be a cause for seperate
identity unless people are sympathetic to pan-Islamism, in which case it
is ofcourse an altogether different question.
> Nishchooy vabchen je Jamati bole SCBr kichu phataker kach teke
> shahanivooty paben. Apnar buddhi ke tarif na kore parchi na.
> Apni amar kono prashneri jabab den nai. Tai dhore nichhi apni apnar
> Bharat Matake khub valobashen. Apnar pichone apnar desher ? ashi koti
> deshbashi
> achee !!!
Prothomoto sotti kotha jante chaile amra Indiate onek safe compared to
what we were in Bd, and this is true with Muslims as well (ask any Muslim
in WB). Bangladesh is one of the more liberal Muslim countries, inspite
that there is no effort at secularization. The Bd Muslim has failed to
create a secular Bengali identity. What it is selling as Bengali
nationalism is more of a Bengali Islamic nationalism? Maybe we ought to
make an example of Turkey. After the revolution led by Kamal Ataturk the
Turks restored the Latin-derived script (doing away with Arabic), started
using Turkic names instead of Arabic ones (e.g. Tansu Ciller, ex-PM of
Turkey) and restored Turkic rituals and festivals. All the Arabic influence
was for historical reasons during the centuries of Arab rule in Turkey,
similar to most of the cultural influences you are talking about is
derived from the Afghan, Pathan and Turkish rule in Bengal (the Nawabs
and Sultans). The Turks declared their nation secular (although it is 99%
Muslim) but the people still remained Muslims (although the
fundamentalists are trying hard to undo that). I don't understand why
Lutfur Bhuiyan (whose ancestors were probably Bengali Hindu as suggested
by the last name) should feel a seperate identity from Ramratan Bhuiyan
and feel more close to some identity of a distant land and culture just
because his religion is Islam.
Supratik
T.H.Sanyal.
>I would definitely agree with you on the Ghoti-Bangal eternal conflict, since
>technically I am a Bangal by origin. However, what I was, and still am ,
>stressing on is the fact that Hindu expatriates from Bangladesh/East Pakistan
>like my parents never faced opression or trauma(resentment from Ghotis,maybe!
>;-) ) from Hindus in Bengal or from elsewhere in India,in their conscious
>efforts to rebuild a lost world of peace and prosperity. Instead , they were
>embraced with open arms and imparted moral support. Compare this with the t
I have lived outside of w.bengal for quite a few years. My own experience
is quite contrary to what you claim.
ths.
sayan bhattacharyya
<asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com> wrote:
>stressing on is the fact that Hindu expatriates from Bangladesh/East Pakistan
>like my parents never faced opression or trauma(resentment from Ghotis,maybe!
>;-) ) from Hindus in Bengal or from elsewhere in India,in their conscious
>efforts to rebuild a lost world of peace and prosperity. Instead , they were
>embraced with open arms and imparted moral support.
You forget the plight and trauma of the "udbastu"s who were shunted to
Dandakaranya or MorichjhNapi. Hardly "embraced with open arms". Quite
a few of them had to commit suicide. Shankha Ghosh has a poem based
on one such incident ("Ultorother bhikiri desh khNuje beRay") which you
can find in his book "Kobitar Muhoorto" (along with the circumstances
that prompted the writing of the poem).
(For a fictionalized but history-based treatment of that period,
you can also read Sunil G's "Purbo Poschim").
>Compare this with the plight
>of the Biharis in Bangladeh or Mohajirs in Pakistan. Their friends in deed are
>now turning a strabismatic eye to these friends now in dire need.
As Naeem has already explained, the situation of Biharis is a different
category for other reasons.
sayan bhattacharyya
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com
Sporadic incidents of suicide ( plausibly driven by inability to face up to the
stark reality of eviction and subsequent poverty ) do not give a complete
picture of the situation. You would be tainting the annals of history if you did
not accept that despite the calamity ( maybe even the catastrophe ) of being
relegated into abject poverty from relative afflence, Hindu expatriates, by and
large, gained back a lot of their lost prosperity.
Even though you may cite the miseries of shanties ( "Colonies") or ghettos ,
wouldn't you agree that it is the "Bangals" who are more or less in almost all
key positions and at the helm of affairs in West Bengal? Had there been vehement
opposition and impudence on the part of "Ghotis" and other Hindus in India,
things wouldn't have been this sweet for the rudderless "Bangals". Seamless
transition is improbable, if not impossible. Hence , there may have been some
uncomely incidents. But to widely publicize these isolated incidents alone would
only underplay the magnanimity of the Indians and their (pardon me for speaking
on behalf of what I believe the majority) ungrudging acceptance of their fellow
brethren from a neighbouring Dominion. Avarice of a handful of resentful
individuals like Sayan-da's relatives hardly would be the mouthpiece of teeming
millions of unmalicious Indians .
Emotional outbursts of authors, who may have been witness to such miserable
incidents, definitely bring to light the darker facets of "Bangal" Migration.
But,even though they are interesing Reads, they should not be confused with the
sole truth. The truth can be seen in hundreds of thousands of "Bangals" like my
parents who , de facto and de jure, overcame insurmountable barriers to
establish a niche for their progeny.
As for Biharis/Mohajirs,- agreed that the geopolitical considerations are
different. But with Universal Brotherhood of Islam, things ought to have been a
lot different. After all, they were as much part of the struggle to realize the
dream of Two Nation Theory. Why conveniently forget the friends in deed when the
need is over?
-Apurba Krishna Sircar
In article <5c1gpm$kea$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>,
sayan bhattacharyya
>>Apni thik bolechen. 'Uludhonir' songe Hinduismer kono somporko neyi,
>ota
>>puropuri cultural. Tobe apnar boktobyota ektu modify korte chai. Ota
>>modhyoprachey cholti holeo otar songe Islamero kono somporko nie. Ota
>>pre-Islamic cultural aspects of the middle eastern peope theke
>>eshechey. Ebong uludhonyi onek primitive cultureo dekha jaye.
Apparently it exists in Malagasy folk music (the music of Madagascar) as
well. There is a musical group called Tarika from Madagascar whose
work I admire very much. In their album "Bibiango" (a fine album;
I highly recommend it) you can find songs in which what we would
call "ulu deoa" is distinctively used.
Naeem Mohaiemen
Supratic Gupta wrote:
>Even if BD was suffering, that cannot be the reason
> to reject them.
>I think it is more because I feel that we are going to loose
> a lot by leaving India and we can do a lot even though we stay seperate
A valid concern.
> > 1) We do not have "abject poverty". You should research success stories
> > such as:
> > Grameen Bank
> > BRAC
> > UBINIG
> > Prabarthana
> > Asha
> > DRIK (http://www.drik.org)
> > PEREGRINE
> > Grameen Cell Phone (coming soon!)
> > ..etc
> > Before making such a generalization.
> I take back his words.
> > 2)"Communal hatred rampant"? Not so.
> > Majority of Bangladeshis, especially common people, remain anti-communal
> > and tolerant/celebratory of all religious groups.
> Even if this is true, that is not sufficient.
Agreed. But people should acknowledge that this does exist.
>The fact is that we don't know enough about each other.
Agreed.
> > > Thought 25 years of freedom would have instilled some secular notions in your
> > > minds !
> >
> > They have. If you are using a few loony-tune postings on SCB to form
> > your opinion on Bangladesh-- making a big mistake. Suggest you buy a
> > plane ticket, visit Bangladesh for a month, and make up your own mind.
>
> I visited Bangladesh for a day. I meet many many BDs here.
> I tell you I liked B. They treated me well. But that cannot be the
> only factor.
Not asking that it be "only factor". But the comment "some secular
notions" is wrong.
> > I challenge you to find:
> > -abject poverty
> > -rampant communal hatred
> > -lack of secular notions
>
> I would say, I would not attempt to find that out. I would leave it to
> you to prove it. Like bring out Bengali Hindus to support you.
Bengali Hindus? Do you mean Bengali Hindus from Bangladesh? If so, I
agree that their relative absence from SCBangladesh is a worrying issue
and something that deserves a closer look.
> a) Start cultural exchange programs
> b) Start inter-border trade
Good first steps.
> c) Get every citizen of the two countries identity card and
> allow free movement, and trade rights
Id cards is trickier-- same sort of prickly perception issues as EEC
common currency..?
--
Naeem Mohaiemen
HBO Interactive Media
Naeem Mohaiemen
Shamim A. Khandekar wrote:
> There are many food items which Muslims are forbidden to eat so is true
> for the Hindus. Hindus have "..baro mashee baro parban.." which is not
> true for Muslims. Therefore, you cannot deny the influence of religion on
> culture. Just because we speak in a common language does not mean that we
> are culturally the same.
Not "same", but "similar"
Snehasis Ganguly
sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.m...@homebox.com> wrote:
: >asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
: >
: >>Have you ever
: >> heard any Hindus who left BD for India complain about being persecuted by other
: >> Indians?
: Apurba,
: It depends on what you call "discrimination". Official discrimination
: against them certainly does not exist, but it is also a fact that many
: West-Bengali-born-and-bred ghoTis, especially of the older generation,
: harbor resentment against the "bangals" whom they see as interlopers in
: their native territory, and are jealous of the success that many of the
: immigrants have achieved through hard work and dynamism.
True. This is true for immigration anywhere. It is common knowledge
that Probashi Bangalis worker harder than resident West Bengalis
and same thing applies for the prosperity of USA.
: I come from a ghoTi family, and I have personally seen many of my
: ghoTi relatives make completely unfounded and uncharitable comments
Agreed. This is totally irrational.
: about "bangal"s -- namely that they are pushy, unscrupulous, mean
: and so forth (none of which is true). Accept it, Apurba -- tribalism
: is unfortunately a part of every human society in the current age,
: and West Bengalis are not free from it either (fortunately this is
: changing in our generation).
Tumi to "tribalism" bhalobasho , thaole chiTKaar keno?
Couldn't help notice that, at least some of the these
people(in this newsgroup) pine more for Bangladesh
than for India, almost giving the impression that India
was but a temporary shelter for them from Bangladesh->USA.
--
India-monsoon and marigold, dung and dust, colors and corpses ,
smoke and ash, snow and endless myth- is a cruel, unrelenting
place of ineffable sweetness. It is the most difficult and most
rewarding of places to travel.
-James O'Reilly
Raghu Seshadri
Sayan writes -
: Soumitra misses a very important point. The above statistics about
: reservation does not represent the _success_ of the Indian State,
: it represents the _failure_ of the Indian State. Do I sound
: paradoxical? Think again. If West Bengal/India had been really
: successful in ensuring social justice and equality, then reservations
: would not have been needed at all! The fact that reservations are
: still needed after 50 years of sovereignty proves that the State
: has completely failed to guarantee social justice, which is why
: artificial band-aids like reservations have become necessary.
This is very peculiar. Let me get this straight -
does the fact that Sweden has a welfare program
for the poor while Uganda has none tell you
that Sweden has failed a lot more than Uganda
in eradicating poverty ?
:-)
RS
Boris Makarevitch
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
>
> Sporadic incidents of suicide ( plausibly driven by inability to face up to the
> stark reality of eviction and subsequent poverty ) do not give a complete
> picture of the situation. You would be tainting the annals of history if you did
> not accept that despite the calamity ( maybe even the catastrophe ) of being
> relegated into abject poverty from relative afflence, Hindu expatriates, by and
> large, gained back a lot of their lost prosperity.
I totally agree with 'asircar'. I don't know how many of those who are
contributing to this SCB has really experienced the days of early
sixties through seventies, when Hindus from E.Pakistan fled to India
(referred to as Bangal, German etc.). I remember, in general, they were
quite welcome. Some of my North Calcutta relatives at times expressed
some v-ery feeble emotional outbursts about them. But mostly of it was
Calcutta elitist attitude-
Its also true, as a group, E.Bengalees fared slightly better than the
W.Bengalees, probably they (without any malice towards anyone) were a
bit more aggressive. When I analyse back the behaviours of my 'Bangal'
friends' families, I tend to agree. They were more soft spoken and
persuasive, set up smaller businesses (groceries, jewellery shops,
bookstores...), the girls were more dashy for getting married, and the
boys were a bit more trying to prove compared to us from the 'ghoti'
families. Even, almost all of the notorious criminals during that period
(a few were my friends as well..) came from Bangal families.
In most areas of this side of Ganges, the population is about half from
E.Pakistan- which amkes me suspect that, the total number of refugees
coming from E.Pakistan is much more than 10 millions. How Sayan would
account for such a huge mass getting absorbed in the main stream
W.Bengal, virtually indistinguishable, if they were unwecome? Smaller
resentments are obvious, and they were much less than what could have
been actually expected.
The smaller suicidal incidents, and refugees living in camps in
MarichjhaNpi etc., (and till date, arround the rail lines of Calcutta
subburb) are unavoidable- such an economy as prevailed in Bengal- is
completely incapable to cope with the pressure.
Dadu
Shamim A. Khandekar
In article <5buc1k$a...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>, sung...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Sunil
Gokhale) wrote:
>
>
> That means all this while you were talking WITHOUT looking
> at history books? That figures.
>
> Why 'near future'? Go right ahead. Dig it up now, please.
>
>
>
>
It seems that, you are too impatient. In order to make you happy for
the time being, I can think of one of the possibilites that made the
present pecuilar distribution of Bhuddist population is that: Bhudda might
have inherited two palaces from his father, the summer palace was in Tibet
and the winter one was in Sri Lanka. And as the 'Hanuman' ride was very
popular those days, he must have made best use of it.
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com
In article <skhandekar-21...@maclab36.utmem.edu>,
skhan...@utmem1.utmem.edu (Shamim A. Khandekar) wrote:
> It seems that, you are too impatient. In order to make you happy for
> the time being, I can think of one of the possibilites that made the
> present pecuilar distribution of Bhuddist population is that: Bhudda might
> have inherited two palaces from his father, the summer palace was in Tibet
> and the winter one was in Sri Lanka. And as the 'Hanuman' ride was very
> popular those days, he must have made best use of it.
If you are that much intelligent, you should have known that Buddhism
spread to Tibet and Sri Lanka through religious emissaries/missionaries. Since
Hinduism never believed in the doctrine of missionary activism, hence the
subsequent resurrection of the Brahminical Hinduism in the Indian mainland did
not automatically lead to missionaries being dispatched to reconvert these
distant Provinces.
Also, that these Provinces were spared the might of the sword goes to prove the
tolerance level of Hinduism, and not the ugly face which the likes of you are
vainly trying to expose. Can you cite any such parallel in Islamic History ?
As for the derogatory remarks that you and your ilk make about the Hindus
worshipping Hanuman or the Phallic Form of Shiva, remember that even your Arabic
ancestors(!!) worshipped the same, the proof is the Phallic stone ( The Kaaba)
of Mecca, which , I believe, is still considered holy by Muslims.
Nice try , Mr Khandekar ! Keep it up !
-Apurba Krishna Sircar
"I can resist everything but Temptation" - Oscar Wilde
Supratic Gupta
Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
Looks like we have agreed a lot.
> > > 2)"Communal hatred rampant"? Not so.
>
> > > Majority of Bangladeshis, especially common people, remain anti-communal
> > > and tolerant/celebratory of all religious groups.
>
> > Even if this is true, that is not sufficient.
>
> Agreed. But people should acknowledge that this does exist.
I cannot acknowledge a think that I am ignorant of.
It is upto you to prove it. You have to think of ways
if you are bothered.
> > I would say, I would not attempt to find that out. I would leave it to
> > you to prove it. Like bring out Bengali Hindus to support you.
>
> Bengali Hindus? Do you mean Bengali Hindus from Bangladesh? If so, I
> agree that their relative absence from SCBangladesh is a worrying issue
> and something that deserves a closer look.
Tell us what you know from your friends, Hindus you know. I trust your
word.
At least better then nothing.
> Id cards is trickier-- same sort of prickly perception issues as EEC
> common currency..?
India already started this. In future you cannot bye a Railway ticket
without
the ID card. May be there will be false ID card, still we are moving
forward.
I hope you try to implement this.
Legal immigration is better then illigal one. For every one.
Naeem Mohaiemen
Supratic Gupta wrote:
> Looks like we have agreed a lot.
Khaise, doraisi. I must be doing something wrong. :-)
> > > > Majority of Bangladeshis, especially common people, remain anti-communal
> > > > and tolerant/celebratory of all religious groups.
> >
> > > Even if this is true, that is not sufficient.
> >
> > Agreed. But people should acknowledge that this does exist.
>
> I cannot acknowledge a think that I am ignorant of.
> It is upto you to prove it.
Agreed. We must do better job of transmitting to outside world our
success stories of communal harmony.
In that vein, Taslima Nasrin ahs done us a disservice by allowing one
aberration (post Babri) to be:
-Exaggerated excessively
-Cast a shadow over the communal harmony that has existed often over
past 25 years of free Bangladesh.
> > Bengali Hindus? Do you mean Bengali Hindus from Bangladesh? If so, I
> > agree that their relative absence from SCBangladesh is a worrying issue
> > and something that deserves a closer look.
>
> Tell us what you know from your friends, Hindus you know. I trust your
> word.
Don't have an answer for the absence of Bengali Hindu voices from
Bangladesh on SCB.
It worries me, perhaps others can speak to this.
> > Id cards is trickier-- same sort of prickly perception issues as EEC
> > common currency..?
>
> India already started this.
> Legal immigration is better then illigal one. For every one.
Agreed.
N. Tiwari
Shamim A. Khandekar (skhan...@utmem1.utmem.edu) wrote:
: Islam is itself a secular religion. If the Muslims were intolerant to
: the Hindus in Bharat or Indian subcontinent then in 800 yrs of its rule
: the majority of the population of present Bharat or India would have been
: Muslims. Look at the Bhuddist population in your country. Buddha, son of a
: Hindu ruler, whose teachings at that time converted many to Bhuddism but
: in course of history they have become insignificant because of
: persecutions. The Bhuddist are either chased out to an island, Sri Lanka
: or across the Himalayan mountains to the South-East or Far-East of Asia.
1. YOu do not know the meaning of the word "secular". Or else, you would
not have used it as you did in your first sentence.
2. The demise of Buddhism had a host of reasons. Islam was one of them.
Hinduism was not one of those. Even a decent "secular" historian will
not say that Buddhism died due to Hinduism.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
N. Tiwari
Shamim A. Khandekar (SKhan...@utmem1.utmem.edu) wrote:
: > point out that your analysis of the demise of Buddhism in India is rather
: > novel (Unbiased textbooks in elementary schools, must be).
:
: You are playing the role of a true Brahman. In near future we will have
: to dig the history books to find out the interactions between the Hindus
: and the Bhuddists in the past in the Sub-Continent.
What is the "true role of a Brahman". YOu ignorant fool.
BTW, what you are doing is not but playing the true role of an
ingorant mullah.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
N. Tiwari
sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: <asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com> wrote:
: >Looks like there is a lot of misconception and misinformation being spread on
: >the Web. The Buddhists in India were not persecuted, it is the non-dogmatic
: >nature of Hinduism that it accepted Buddha as one of the incarnations in Hindu
: >Pantheon. So the difference between the Shakya Muni's philosophy and Brahminical
: It is documented that Sasanka, king of Bengal and a Shaivite Hindu,
: persecuted Buddhists and destroyed Buddhist monasteries.
: You can also read Tagore's "Notir Puja" for other examples of persecution
: of Buddhists by Hindu kings. Although NP is fiction, Tagore took the story
: from historical texts.
I do not know about Tagore's relevance to Bengali history. However,
coming to Shashanka, what are the documents, that show us about his
persecution of Buddhists. There is one I know of by Huen Tsang. The
Chinese guy says, that the Bengali king uprootedi (or cut) the Bodhi tree, but
out of miracle, the true was still there. So, this charge of
persecution, is in doubt. It could be, or could not be.
Further, out of entire Indian history, you prop up one or two Shashanka,
and use them to show that HINDUS wiped out the Buddhists. However, when
I say that the stories of persecution of Buddhists by Islamic horders
(Nalanda, Taksh-shila, Bengal, Bihar are countless), you go into
hibernation. On one hand, and entire belief system (or a an organic
collection of systems) is labelled as culprit, and on the other
hand, I see a sense of shame in acknowledging the Islamic cruelties.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Ranjit Mathews Piravonu
Didn't AdiShankaraCharya have a role in the decline of Buddhism ?
--
Ranjit Mathews ran...@swdc.stratus.com
2065 Hamilton Ave 408-559-5371
San Jose, CA 95125-5905 www.stratus.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
sayan bhattacharyya
Raghu Seshadri <sesh...@cup.hp.com> wrote:
Note that my post was about "ensuring social justice and equality",
not about "eradicating poverty". The two are different issues. Let me
explain more to you.
Poverty in a country may be the result of global forces on which the polity
of that country may not have control. Thus, I will not hold the polity of a
country _solely_ responsible if there is poverty in the country. However,
internally to a country, whether all the citizens of the country receive
equal opportunity, equal rights and equal standing before the law, are factors
for which the policy of that country is largely responsible. (I should qualify
that, saying that this at least _used_ be the case: these days, agencies such
as World Bank and IMF which are external to a country's polity do indeed
influence its internal policies as well; but since we are talking about the
_past_ successes/failure of the Indian polity, in an era where such
external influence was less, that point is moot).
Thus, to take your example above, since I was interested in this post in
"ensuring social justice and equality", I would look at things like:
whether all citizens have equal protection before the law, both in theory
_and_ in practice; whether there are glaring economic disparities within
society; whether discrimination exists; what does the Gini coefficient
for the country look like; etc. etc. Absolute measures of poverty,
although certainly an important concern, wasn't what I was specifically
concerned with in _this_ post.
Thus, to answer your question about Sweden and Uganda from your perspective,
I would look at the data on how many people in Sweden _need_ such special
protection as Sweden guarantees, i.e. how many people's lives would have
been drastically worse if that special protection did not exist. If that number
of high, that would indicate that the country hasn't done well in ensuring
all-round development of all its people, and that to me would signal unsuccess.
On the other hand if it turns out that the number is relatively low, that
would indicate that Sweden has done a good job in ensuring equal opportunity
and equal justice to all its citizens as a matter of course, which to me
would signal success.
Supratic Gupta
Zaki Wahhaj wrote:
>
> > > If the Paschim Bongo (WB) has to join the sovereign BD,then inorder to
> > >prove her intentions it has to come out first from present Bharat or
> > >India.
> >
> > join Bangladesh would exceed 1%.
> >
> need you, its you who need us.." sort of thing.
Not exactly, though most of us agree that we need each other, we
need to take some urgent steps to make our economic and other
situation better, what we disagree is the necessity of uniting.
Though I agree some of us have made statements that tried to make
BD look poor, fundamental etc. , I have clearly said before that
we in India, don't want to unite not for those reason. It is just
a question of priority.
>I, for on, am very curious
> about West Bengal, and am sure there are others like me on the other side
> of the border. Now, the consequences of and efforts required for a
> unification of the two Bengals are unknown to me. But I don't see any harm
> in greater media interaction, i.e. a greater availability of WB
> newspapers, magazines, books, television shows, etc. in BD and vice versa.
> This will be an easy and effective step (but admittedly only of interest
> to the elitist class).
Agreed. That is what I said before. We first need to increase
interaction, then
talk of unity.
>
> -Zaki
Supratic Gupta
Hassan Alam wrote:
> It seems your ability to attach statment with authors is about
> as accurate as your desire for communal harmony - very poor.
How did you judge the later? Just wondering.
Supratic
Hassan Alam
Supratic Gupta (gu...@doboku2.ace.nitech.ac.jp) wrote:
The first was from ascribing statements I didnt make, the second
from your prolific postings on communal issues.
: Supratic
--
Hassan Alam
Shamim A. Khandekar
> Didn't AdiShankaraCharya have a role in the decline of Buddhism ?
> --
> Ranjit Mathews ran...@swdc.stratus.com
Thank you for your input. I would appreciate if would write a little
history in the context to your above statement.
N. Tiwari
Ranjit Mathews Piravonu (ran...@swdc.stratus.com) wrote:
: N. Tiwari wrote:
: >
: > Shamim A. Khandekar (skhan...@utmem1.utmem.edu) wrote:
: >
: > 2. The demise of Buddhism had a host of reasons. Islam was one of
: them.
: > Hinduism was not one of those. Even a decent "secular" historian
: will
: > not say that Buddhism died due to Hinduism.
: >
: > --
: > Nachiketa Tiwari
: Didn't AdiShankaraCharya have a role in the decline of Buddhism ?
I was discounting the role of Hinduism reg. the demise of Buddhism
in the sense of "aggrisiveness" and "hostility' In that sense,
Hinduism's role was not present. Debates, and intellectual discourse,
and incorporation of a lot of Buddhist ideas into the Hindu fold
did happen, and was also desirable. Further, Buddhism was hardly a
mainstream religion in the times of Adi_Sankara.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
N. Tiwari
: > Ranjit Mathews ran...@swdc.stratus.com
: Thank you for your input. I would appreciate if would write a little
: history in the context to your above statement.
Thank you for displaying your ignorance. Firstly, you make charges
that are base-less. Then, you harp on Ranjit to write for you.
I am sure that Ranjit is aware that the role of Adi_Sankara
was a very intellectual one. It seems, you are not aware of that.
If you were, then you would not have goaded Ranjit to "write".
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Sunil Gokhale
In article <5cidrq$89m$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
N. Tiwari <nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu> wrote:
>
>I was discounting the role of Hinduism reg. the demise of Buddhism
>in the sense of "aggrisiveness" and "hostility' In that sense,
>Hinduism's role was not present. Debates, and intellectual discourse,
>and incorporation of a lot of Buddhist ideas into the Hindu fold
>did happen, and was also desirable.
Interestingly, many people found Shankara's Advaita so close to the
teachings of Budha, that some of them criticized his teaching as Crypto-
Budhism (Prachchanna Baudhavad).