DARUN KHOBOR
Shoumyo Dasgupta
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Soumitra Bose wanted me to post the following information, since he is
on the road :
> 1. Ajker www.westbengal.com e ekta durdhosshyo khobor berieychhe .
> "Bordhomane ekti Muslim poribaar sat purush dhore Durga Puja
> korchhen".
> Era sat purush dhorei mussalman chilen ebong kokhono hindu hoie jaowar
> kothai bhabenni. Ender modhye Hajio achhen.
> 2. Odhyapok Vinay Lal (UCLA History ) ekta boma phateiyechhen. 14% of the
> Indian populace insist korechhe je tnara jeno ekisongye Hindu o
> Mussalman hishebe registered hon . Eta Indian census report theke
> beriechhe .
> For the more curious, eta hochhye tNar address .
> vl...@history.ucla.edu
> Dept Of History, UCLA
> 405 Hilgard Ave, Los Angeles, CA 90024-1473
Shoumyo Dasgupta.
Ei bhai keu ektu 'Ingraji'te sci/scp -te post kore debe naki ? Amar
ekhon onubad korar time nei.
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>
> Ajker www.westbengal.com e ekta durdhosshyo khobor berieychhe .
> "Bordhomane ekti Muslim poribaar sat purush dhore Durga Puja
> korchhen".
> Era sat purush dhorei mussalman chilen ebong kokhono hindu hoie jaowar
> kothai bhabenni. Ender modhye Hajio achhen.
>
> Odhyapok Vinay Lal (UCLA History ) ekta boma phateiyechhen. 14% of the
> Indian populace insist korechhe je tnara jeno ekisongye Hindu o
> Mussalman hishebe registered hon . Eta Indian census report theke
> beriechhe .
> eta hochhye tNar address .
> vl...@history.ucla.edu
> Home phone 818-716-9447
> Work phone 310-825-8276/4601
> Dept Of History, UCLA
> 405 Hilgard Ave, Los Angeles, CA 90024-1473
>
>
> eta post kore dekho ...
>
--------------435563631C85--
Naeem Mohaiemen
Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
> > 1. Ajker www.westbengal.com e ekta durdhosshyo khobor berieychhe .
> > "Bordhomane ekti Muslim poribaar sat purush dhore Durga Puja
> > korchhen".
> > Era sat purush dhorei mussalman chilen ebong kokhono hindu hoie jaowar
> > kothai bhabenni. Ender modhye Hajio achhen.
>
> > 2. Odhyapok Vinay Lal (UCLA History ) ekta boma phateiyechhen. 14% of the
> > Indian populace insist korechhe je tnara jeno ekisongye Hindu o
> > Mussalman hishebe registered hon . Eta Indian census report theke
> > beriechhe .
Not from the Census.
It is actually drawn from a very extensive and recent survey of 600
Indian
communities by K. Suresh Singh of the 'People of India' Project.
sayan bhattacharyya
>Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
>> > 1. Ajker www.westbengal.com e ekta durdhosshyo khobor berieychhe .
>> > "Bordhomane ekti Muslim poribaar sat purush dhore Durga Puja
>> > korchhen".
>> > Era sat purush dhorei mussalman chilen ebong kokhono hindu hoie jaowar
>> > kothai bhabenni. Ender modhye Hajio achhen.
>>
This is not surprising, given the syncretic traditions of Bengal. Many
"poTua"s (people who paint "pot"s) , for example, are Muslim, although
the poTs are usually drawn from Hindu religious traditions. I have in
my possession a poT representing the goddess Durga which was painted
by a Muslim poTua from Burdwan district by the name of Aleqjan.
Supratik Das
To begin with Soumyo has stated a rather well known fact that there are
communities in India which are neither Hindu nor Muslim or rather both
Hindu and Muslims e.g. the Meos of Rajasthan who follow Hindu customs,
take Hindu names sing in praise of Hindu Gods and yet follow Islam. I am
glad that Soumyo and other Bengalies have suddenly discovered this fact.
However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that. The people seem to follow a
syncretic religo-social life because of incomplete conversion of Hindu
communities to Islam mostly conducted in the aftermath of a war. A case in
example are the Chauhan Rajputs of Rajasthan. A section of these Rajputs
were converted to Islam after Prithviraj Chauhan lost to Mohammed Ghori.
For the next 800 yrs they haven't reconverted back to Hinduism because of
orthodox Hindus objecting to it and orthodox Mullahs preventing it neither
did they fully integrate into Muslim society. So they retained their
earlier Hindu culture and adopted the imposed Islamic one as best as they
could. Recently some of them reconverted to Hinduism when the VHP
persuaded the Hindu orthodoxy to accept them into the Rajput clan.
Similarly the VHP also persuaded a community in Gujrat to integrate into
Hindu society. This community used Hindu names, worshipped Goddess Amba
and yet followed Islam. If any of the Marxist idiots have read Quran will
find out thats impossible as per religious belief. So almost all such
'syncretic' cultures are borne out of converted Hindus adjusting to their
new socio-political environment rather than examples of Hindu beliefs and
Islam coexisting side by side as a result of natural affinities as
Marxists want us to believe.
While it is true that historical events have made many sections of Indian
society 'syncretic', what is wrong is to misinterpret them as is being
done by Marxist idiots.
Supratik
Naeem Mohaiemen
Supratik Das wrote:>
> >On 24 Sep 1997, sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
> > >Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
> > >> > 1. Ajker www.westbengal.com e ekta durdhosshyo khobor berieychhe .
> > >> > "Bordhomane ekti Muslim poribaar sat purush dhore Durga Puja
> > >> > korchhen".
> > >> > Era sat purush dhorei mussalman chilen ebong kokhono hindu hoie jaowar
> > >> > kothai bhabenni. Ender modhye Hajio achhen.
> > This is not surprising, given the syncretic traditions of Bengal.
> However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
> 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that.
Huhhhh? Kisher moddhe ki, pantha bhath-e ghee.."syncretism" er modhe
Marxist paradigm er ki dekhla?
SUpratic, thoke keu pattha dei na, tharporeo pyan pyan kore jash.
Ja ja, aro forced conversion kor giya..o sorry, "re-education"
14% jindabad/joi!!
Pran Lal
>
>This is not surprising, given the syncretic traditions of Bengal. Many
>"poTua"s (people who paint "pot"s) , for example, are Muslim, although
>the poTs are usually drawn from Hindu religious traditions. I have in
>my possession a poT representing the goddess Durga which was painted
>by a Muslim poTua from Burdwan district by the name of Aleqjan.
>
Somehow, I feel that this word "syncretic" has been overblown.
Perhaps with some ulterior motive. There is no such thing as
"syncretic" in the sense that Sayan alludes to. And there is nothing
uniquely "syncretic" about Bengali Muslims. For instance a lot
of Hindi heartland classical musicians have sung Hindu bhajans
since quite a some time. Most of the brassware makers, (who
also make a lot of Hindu icons) from Merruth are Muslim.
The marriage rituals of Muslims in UP are to large extents
similar to those of their Hindu counterparts. To argue that
all this is a sign of syncretism, (in the sense that the ideologies
of Islam and Hinduism have met at someplace somehow) is
an erroneous judgement at the best.
This syncretism has had two reasons.
1. Economic. For instance, it is the money, that makes a brassware
maker to make Hindu moortis. It is the same money, that leads
a Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan to sing Vande Mataram.
2. Incomplete Conversion: It is the strength of Hinduism and its
culture, that has not gone from the hearts of so many converts
despite the pressure of proselytizing zealots. In that sense,
the job of proselytizers remains incomplete. For instance, we
have this Islamic concept of ideological purging (i think called
tabliki) that keeps on insisting that the Indian Muslims keep on
purifiying their acts, and customs, and purge all those of Hindu
influences. However, this is an ever continuing process. During
certain periods, the proponents of Islam did achieve success
to a remarkable degree. At other times, they failed. One period
when they did achieve tremendous success was during the initial
British Raj in Bengal. In those times, these 'reform" movements
led the Bengali Muslims to adopt names of Persian and Arabic
origin. The very same movements led them to adopt a whole
range of "Islamic" cultural mores, and divorced them from
"Hindu" mores. And the very same movements, led to the
creation of Bengali Muslim identity, which was later used
as a rationale by Curzon to divide Bengal. And it is the same
factor, that in a sense leads to this debate of "jal" v/s "paani"
and Bengali v/s Bangla debates on this very forum.
In short, the idea of "syncretic" culture, as foolishly touted by
our leftist brethern is a foolish one, as it tries to sweep the basic
Hindu-Muslim differences under the rug. And to some extent,
theories like these, are also dangerous, since they may once
again lead to one more division of Bengal.
nachiketa
Pradip Gangopadhyay
Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.m...@homebox.com> wrote:
Subject: Jotho Dosh/Marxist Ghosh (Re: 14% Hindu & Muslim)
>Supratik Das wrote:
>> However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
>> 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that.
>Huhhhh? Kisher moddhe ki, pantha bhath-e ghee.."syncretism" er modhe
>Marxist paradigm er ki dekhla?
>SUpratic, thoke keu pattha dei na, tharporeo pyan pyan kore jash.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Ja ja, aro forced conversion kor giya..o sorry, "re-education"
>14% jindabad/joi!!
You did not agree with Supratic's views and could have just stated that. Why
use "tui" and then "thoke keu pattha dei na"? Why such personal attacks?
Pradip Gangopadhyay
Supratik Das
On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
> Supratik Das wrote:>
>
> > >On 24 Sep 1997, sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> > > >Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
> > > >> > 1. Ajker www.westbengal.com e ekta durdhosshyo khobor berieychhe .
> > > >> > "Bordhomane ekti Muslim poribaar sat purush dhore Durga Puja
> > > >> > korchhen".
> > > >> > Era sat purush dhorei mussalman chilen ebong kokhono hindu hoie jaowar
> > > >> > kothai bhabenni. Ender modhye Hajio achhen.
>
> > > This is not surprising, given the syncretic traditions of Bengal.
>
> > However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
> > 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that.
> Huhhhh? Kisher moddhe ki, pantha bhath-e ghee.."syncretism" er modhe
> Marxist paradigm er ki dekhla?
Ki Naeem Bhai kata ghay nuner chita laglo naki? Naki sotti kotha bole
fellum. Makura abar sotti kotha sojyo korte pare na tate ki amar dosh.
> SUpratic, thoke keu pattha dei na, tharporeo pyan pyan kore jash.
Se ki Guru. Tumi thakte amake ki kore patta debe. Tar opor Sayan, Soumyo,
Nalin, Soumi aro sob Maku pundit thakte amar moton chuno puti ki kore
patta pabe. Chi Chi bhabteo lojja lage.
> Ja ja, aro forced conversion kor giya..o sorry, "re-education"
Ei je Guru sotti kotha sojhyo holo na. Nijeke ainar samne ki turki mone
hoi? Sala, itihashe je dekhi patihash.
> 14% jindabad/joi!!
Tomader 'syncretismer' dhop diye amar pechon muchi.
Supratik
Supratik Das
On 25 Sep 1997, Pradip Gangopadhyay wrote:
> Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.m...@homebox.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Jotho Dosh/Marxist Ghosh (Re: 14% Hindu & Muslim)
>
> >Supratik Das wrote:
> >> However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
> >> 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that.
>
>
> >Huhhhh? Kisher moddhe ki, pantha bhath-e ghee.."syncretism" er modhe
> >Marxist paradigm er ki dekhla?
>
> >SUpratic, thoke keu pattha dei na, tharporeo pyan pyan kore jash.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >Ja ja, aro forced conversion kor giya..o sorry, "re-education"
> >14% jindabad/joi!!
>
> You did not agree with Supratic's views and could have just stated that. Why
> use "tui" and then "thoke keu pattha dei na"? Why such personal attacks?
Thanks Pradip.
Oi "tui" bole Supratik Daske thakano jabena. Sotti bolbo, jorer songey
bolbo. To quote Oliver Cromwell "Such matters are not to be discussed
with good manners, Sir".
What is this bullshit of 'syncretism'? Lets face it. Bengalies lost
battles. We never managed to fight the Afghan and Pathans who became
Nawabs and Sultans controlling large portions of Bengal. Besides much of
the folk culture tried to absorb Islamic influences brought by the invader
through the aul-baul culture. The 'syncretism' we see is due to the
enormous capacity of the Bengali to adjust and accomodate historical
reversals not due to the happy amalgamation of Islam and Hinduism but due
to the ability of Bengalies half-converted to assimilate imposed
religio-cultural values with their inherent ones. Most of the Bengalie
Muslim population underwent Islamic purification only a hundred years
back. Before that they were like the Meos of Rajasthan using Hindu names,
following Hindu customs but by religion following an Islam which was mixed
with their former Hindu faith. It was not due to a happy coexistence of
two faiths but an attempt by a politically and religio-socially suppressed
people to adapt to their circumstances.
It is like Valmiki meditating under a tree till he is covered by an
enormous 'uier dhipi' so that people could no longer distinguish whether
it was Valmiki or a 'uier dhipi'. Matters come to such a pass that even
Valmiki is confused whether it is he himself or whether it is indeed a
'uier dhipi'. Similar is the case with 'syncretism'.
Naeem finds it hard to accept the truth.
> Pradip Gangopadhyay
Supratik
Akhtar Siddique
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>Somehow, I feel that this word "syncretic" has been overblown.
>Perhaps with some ulterior motive. There is no such thing as
>"syncretic" in the sense that Sayan alludes to. And there is nothing
>nachiketa
For once get rid of the langot and cut down on bhang dose. Syncretism
in religious beliefs, in the sense of belonging to different religous
traditions at once is not rare. If you went to rural Bengal, particularly
the East (Bangladesh), even today it is not unusual for Muslims to give
offerings to Shitla, or Hindus going to Mazars such as ShahJalal's in
Sylhet or Maizbhandar in Chittagong. It has always been like that.
Religious distinctions become much greater in the cities and has probably
become bigger in this century. But even today, are not there more Hindus
who go to Ajmer? It is not even unique to Indian subcontinent. In the
Middle East, you have the shrine of St. John/Yahya in Damascus holy to
both Muslims and Christians, until Israel was founded the Ibrahimi Mosque
was holy to Muslims and Jews for centuries. Even Morocco supposedly has
shrines of holy men (like Pirs) where both Jews and Muslims. So do find
substitutes of your bhang. You may see a new reality.
--Akhtar Siddique
Pran Lal
Did you read my entire post. Or you just had to react for the heck
of it. Do these Muslims believe in Hindu customs and rituals by
way of concious choice. Or is it that these beliefs are mere hangovers
of past. Do the Islamic thekedars in Bengal and elsewhere do not
try to get rid the momin of all these kaafeeree influences. Or is it
their view that these influences are a good idea. Answer these
questions before you try to eliminate bhang from my head.
Did I debate the existence of these cross-religious practices
in my earlier post. Or did I say that these practices have been
there since the job of fanatic mominizers is far from complete.
Just 250 yrs back from now, a lot (by that I mean a majority)
of Bengali Muslims had Indian sounding names. Over the
time, they were reformed to such an extent that perhaps
not more than 10% of bengali Muslims have similar names
as of today. This to me, is certainly not a symbol of "syncretism"
in the sense you allude to mian.>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
nachiketa
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.970926012905.27204A-100000@post>, d...@aecom.yu.edu
says...
>
>> Supratik Das wrote:>
>>
>> > >On 24 Sep 1997, sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>>
>> > > This is not surprising, given the syncretic traditions of Bengal.
>>
>> > 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that.
>
What has "Marxist paradigm" to do with "syncretic"?
Ondho generalisation korey gali diley to cholbey na.
Soumitra Bose
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
>
> >
> > > >On 24 Sep 1997, sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
> >
> > > > >> > 1. Ajker www.westbengal.com e ekta durdhosshyo khobor berieychhe .
> > > > >> > "Bordhomane ekti Muslim poribaar sat purush dhore Durga Puja
> > > > >> > korchhen".
> > > > >> > Era sat purush dhorei mussalman chilen ebong kokhono hindu hoie jaowar
> > > > >> > kothai bhabenni. Ender modhye Hajio achhen.
> >
> >
> > > However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
> > > 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that.
>
> > Marxist paradigm er ki dekhla?
>
> fellum. Makura abar sotti kotha sojyo korte pare na tate ki amar dosh.
>
>
> Nalin, Soumi aro sob Maku pundit thakte amar moton chuno puti ki kore
> patta pabe. Chi Chi bhabteo lojja lage.
>
>
> hoi? Sala, itihashe je dekhi patihash.
>
> > 14% jindabad/joi!!
>
> Tomader 'syncretismer' dhop diye amar pechon muchi.
>
> Supratik
language with which one first calls the mother)- scatology. I am more
than sure what his mother did to this kid with this attitude .
Sishu boyeshe ma era cheleder mukhe ar kane (onek shomoie ) modhu, tulsi
patar rosh ityadi diye thaken . Supratiker Ma , hoi bhule giyechilen ar
na hoi , sishur jonmologner bajhik alamot dekhe jarpornai hotodyom
hoiechilen.
Udayan Chattopadhyay
>
>
>Ki Naeem Bhai kata ghay nuner chita laglo naki? Naki sotti kotha bole
>fellum. Makura abar sotti kotha sojyo korte pare na tate ki amar dosh.
>
Ki boley phelley? Ektao mulyoban kotha to dekhlam na? Ek gada gali chenchiye
to debate hoy na.
[deleted]
>
>Se ki Guru. Tumi thakte amake ki kore patta debe. Tar opor Sayan, Soumyo,
>Nalin, Soumi aro sob Maku pundit thakte amar moton chuno puti ki kore
>patta pabe. Chi Chi bhabteo lojja lage.
>
>
[deleted]
>
>Ei je Guru sotti kotha sojhyo holo na. Nijeke ainar samne ki turki mone
>hoi? Sala, itihashe je dekhi patihash.
>
This is incredible.
Thik bolecho, bhabtey lojja lagey, ei shob dekhey, porey.
Amra jara internet-ey likhchi, amra naki elite. Ar ei shob mot-prokash?
Hyan, shotti bhishon lojja lagey.
>
>Tomader 'syncretismer' dhop diye amar pechon muchi.
>
Amader syncretism (orthath tomader definition-ey) tomar shey pechon-er hoyto
sthan thakey nao parey ...
>
>Supratik
>
Udayan
Soumitra Bose
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On 25 Sep 1997, Pradip Gangopadhyay wrote:
>
> > Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.m...@homebox.com> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Jotho Dosh/Marxist Ghosh (Re: 14% Hindu & Muslim)
> >
> > >Supratik Das wrote:
> > >> 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that.
> >
> >
> > >Huhhhh? Kisher moddhe ki, pantha bhath-e ghee.."syncretism" er modhe
> > >Marxist paradigm er ki dekhla?
> >
> > >Ja ja, aro forced conversion kor giya..o sorry, "re-education"
that is what and how we pay to stay with India. Someone who is
unfortunately born in a bengali family and has least knowledge of its
culture and tradition and the sacrifices and power of the bengalees , is
now bitten by the bugs of the Tikkidhari hindi-hindutvawallahs. It is
good that such creatures are around , we would know the path NOT to
take. I thought those who even fails the history exams in the class 6 o
7 history tests in their schools know that Bengalee Nawabs and Baro
BhNuiyas fought, resisted and kicked out centralized rules from
Delhi.Now I know some characters did not even read any books and still
manage to graduate .
Akhtar Siddique
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>of it. Do these Muslims believe in Hindu customs and rituals by
>questions before you try to eliminate bhang from my head.
Well it might be too late to eliminate the bhang from your head, but
what I am trying to tell you is that you (and other accolytes of
the Vishwa Bhangsevak Parishad) identify people simply by their
stated religious identity. However, human societies are not
monodimensional and religious differences, as drivers of human
actions, are unusual. When you do, you get the langotization of
the past and the destruction of Babri Masjid and the 3,000 dead
in those riots. It is not unique to India and the langots produce
the counter-langots in Bangladesh or Pakistan. An example: you
(or some other net-langot) posted about how Mahmud of Ghazni destroyed
temples in Western India. That is historically true. However, was
it religious? Well if it were, how do you explain that Mahmud's primary
commander in India was a Hindu with the name of Ramnath and a very
large part of his army was Hindu. He also used the same army in his
battles in Central Asia and destroyed Bukhara where his enemies were
mostly Muslims. So saying "Muslim plunderers like Mahmud" is definitely
a langotization of history caused by the bhang. Then you get the
counter-langotization in Pakistan or Bangladesh of calling Mahmud a
Ghazi. Another example, you claim that Muslim Bengalis had Hindu
names 250 years back and also talked about the half-converted
Hindus. Well no evidence on the name front. It is also a fact that
in most of East Bengal the landowners remained Hindu with a peasantry
becoming mostly Muslim. The process of conversion is not well-understood.
However, the primary mechanism is supposed to have been acculturation,
i.e. people adopting more and more Muslim practices over time
with the involvement of the pirs in the process. You also claimed that
there is something Vedic in the syncretism. Well that is in the same
class as langot-claim about Pushpak Rath. I told you about the syncretism
in the Middle East and North Africa. The process of acculturation is
still going on in Africa and occurred in Egypt or Iran. Do start seeing
something beyond religion alone. You are at Virginia Tech, you do have
a library. Do read beyond what the langotis taught you in UP
or Delhi. You will learn something.
--Akhtar Siddique
Soumitra Bose
Pran Lal wrote:
>
> >pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
> >
> >>Somehow, I feel that this word "syncretic" has been overblown.
> >>Perhaps with some ulterior motive. There is no such thing as
> >>"syncretic" in the sense that Sayan alludes to. And there is nothing
> >
> >>nachiketa
> >
> >For once get rid of the langot and cut down on bhang dose. Syncretism
> >in religious beliefs, in the sense of belonging to different religous
> >traditions at once is not rare. If you went to rural Bengal, particularly
> >the East (Bangladesh), even today it is not unusual for Muslims to give
> >offerings to Shitla, or Hindus going to Mazars such as ShahJalal's in
> >Sylhet or Maizbhandar in Chittagong. It has always been like that.
> >Religious distinctions become much greater in the cities and has probably
> >become bigger in this century. But even today, are not there more Hindus
> >who go to Ajmer? It is not even unique to Indian subcontinent. In the
> >Middle East, you have the shrine of St. John/Yahya in Damascus holy to
> >both Muslims and Christians, until Israel was founded the Ibrahimi Mosque
> >was holy to Muslims and Jews for centuries. Even Morocco supposedly has
> >shrines of holy men (like Pirs) where both Jews and Muslims. So do find
> >substitutes of your bhang. You may see a new reality.
> >
> >--Akhtar Siddique
> >
>
> Did you read my entire post. Or you just had to react for the heck
> of past. Do the Islamic thekedars in Bengal and elsewhere do not
> try to get rid the momin of all these kaafeeree influences. Or is it
> their view that these influences are a good idea. Answer these
So the Muslims would do that UNCONSCIOUSLY as a hang-over. KAzi NAzrul
was an unconscious poet , when he wrote MA amina r kole Rasul sona dole
, in the allusion of Krishna with Jashoda .
So how come many hindu mothers take their kid to the local dargah to get
a jolpora from the pir sahib. Are they toiling under some sort of a
hang-over ??????? How come the imambaras of West Bengal are more visited
and revered by Hindus than by muslims ???? is that a reverse hang-over
???? and what a nice thing to know that most of the Indians are
un-conscious and PRan-lal-the-nacho is one of the few bandars who is not
.
>
> Did I debate the existence of these cross-religious practices
> in my earlier post. Or did I say that these practices have been
> there since the job of fanatic mominizers is far from complete.
> Just 250 yrs back from now, a lot (by that I mean a majority)
> of Bengali Muslims had Indian sounding names. Over the
> time, they were reformed to such an extent that perhaps
> not more than 10% of bengali Muslims have similar names
> as of today. This to me, is certainly not a symbol of "syncretism"
> in the sense you allude to mian.>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
When till today those "arabic named Bengali muslims" creative artistes
do practice the best form of "Hindu art" like Abassuddin Ahmed,Iffat Ara
Khan, Nilufar Yasmin, and the most conscious Hindu brahmins do create
the best Muslim music and art like ANup Ghoshal, et all , not to speak
of Amar PAul or Paban and Sanatan Das etc , who can easily termed to be
as commie trash (did he ever know about Communism ).
>
> nachiketa
Pran Lal
SB wrote:
>Pran Lal wrote:
>>
>> >pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>> >
>> >>Somehow, I feel that this word "syncretic" has been overblown.
>> >>Perhaps with some ulterior motive. There is no such thing as
>> >>"syncretic" in the sense that Sayan alludes to. And there is nothing
>> >
>> >>nachiketa
>> >
>> >For once get rid of the langot and cut down on bhang dose. Syncretism
>> >
>>
>> Did you read my entire post. Or you just had to react for the heck
>> of it. Do these Muslims believe in Hindu customs and rituals by
>> way of concious choice. Or is it that these beliefs are mere hangovers
>> of past. Do the Islamic thekedars in Bengal and elsewhere do not
>> try to get rid the momin of all these kaafeeree influences. Or is it
>> their view that these influences are a good idea. Answer these
>> questions before you try to eliminate bhang from my head.
>
>
>So the Muslims would do that UNCONSCIOUSLY as a hang-over. KAzi NAzrul
>was an unconscious poet , when he wrote MA amina r kole Rasul sona dole
>, in the allusion of Krishna with Jashoda .
>
>So how come many hindu mothers take their kid to the local dargah to get
>a jolpora from the pir sahib. Are they toiling under some sort of a
>hang-over ??????? How come the imambaras of West Bengal are more visited
>and revered by Hindus than by muslims ???? is that a reverse hang-over
>???? and what a nice thing to know that most of the Indians are
>un-conscious and PRan-lal-the-nacho is one of the few bandars who is not
Who knows. Maybe!! Ask Nazrul for his sake. After all, OLD HABITS
DIE HARD.
And example of this proverb. Keshava Chandra Sen all his life
advocated against child marriage. And then, he encouraged the
same in his own family. Old habits die hard indeed.
But then old habits change too. Example: Bangladesh, and
division of Bengal based on the feelings and views of Bengali
Muslims. Centuries of shared traditions were later shed, becauseo
of Islamic reform movements.
About Hindu's going to dargah's: Partially because of Hindu ethos,
and partially because of superstition.
>
>>
>> Did I debate the existence of these cross-religious practices
>> in my earlier post. Or did I say that these practices have been
>> there since the job of fanatic mominizers is far from complete.
>> Just 250 yrs back from now, a lot (by that I mean a majority)
>> of Bengali Muslims had Indian sounding names. Over the
>> time, they were reformed to such an extent that perhaps
>> not more than 10% of bengali Muslims have similar names
>> as of today. This to me, is certainly not a symbol of "syncretism"
>> in the sense you allude to mian.>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>
>When till today those "arabic named Bengali muslims" creative artistes
>do practice the best form of "Hindu art" like Abassuddin Ahmed,Iffat Ara
>Khan, Nilufar Yasmin, and the most conscious Hindu brahmins do create
>the best Muslim music and art like ANup Ghoshal, et all , not to speak
>of Amar PAul or Paban and Sanatan Das etc , who can easily termed to be
>as commie trash (did he ever know about Communism ).
Things take time to change, do'nt they. BD was not built in a day.
The process keeps on going on. And "syncretism" remains on
dimnishing in its intenstity. Why!!
nachiketa
Soumitra Bose
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On 24 Sep 1997, sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> > >Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
> > >> > 1. Ajker www.westbengal.com e ekta durdhosshyo khobor berieychhe .
> > >> > "Bordhomane ekti Muslim poribaar sat purush dhore Durga Puja
> > >> > korchhen".
> > >> > Era sat purush dhorei mussalman chilen ebong kokhono hindu hoie jaowar
> > >> > kothai bhabenni. Ender modhye Hajio achhen.
>
> > "poTua"s (people who paint "pot"s) , for example, are Muslim, although
> > the poTs are usually drawn from Hindu religious traditions. I have in
> > my possession a poT representing the goddess Durga which was painted
> > by a Muslim poTua from Burdwan district by the name of Aleqjan.
>
> communities in India which are neither Hindu nor Muslim or rather both
> Hindu and Muslims e.g. the Meos of Rajasthan who follow Hindu customs,
> take Hindu names sing in praise of Hindu Gods and yet follow Islam. I am
> glad that Soumyo and other Bengalies have suddenly discovered this fact.
>
> syncretic religo-social life because of incomplete conversion of Hindu
> communities to Islam mostly conducted in the aftermath of a war. A case in
> example are the Chauhan Rajputs of Rajasthan. A section of these Rajputs
> were converted to Islam after Prithviraj Chauhan lost to Mohammed Ghori.
> For the next 800 yrs they haven't reconverted back to Hinduism because of
> orthodox Hindus objecting to it and orthodox Mullahs preventing it neither
> did they fully integrate into Muslim society. So they retained their
> earlier Hindu culture and adopted the imposed Islamic one as best as they
> could. Recently some of them reconverted to Hinduism when the VHP
> persuaded the Hindu orthodoxy to accept them into the Rajput clan.
> Similarly the VHP also persuaded a community in Gujrat to integrate into
> Hindu society. This community used Hindu names, worshipped Goddess Amba
> and yet followed Islam. If any of the Marxist idiots have read Quran will
> find out thats impossible as per religious belief. So almost all such
> 'syncretic' cultures are borne out of converted Hindus adjusting to their
> new socio-political environment rather than examples of Hindu beliefs and
> Islam coexisting side by side as a result of natural affinities as
> Marxists want us to believe.
I thought Supratik did know the meaning of some english words like "lie"
. It appears not,. Meos have been targetted by VHP for re-conversion.
NOT ONE DID. NOT ONE OF THE MEO MUSLIMS RECONVERTED. There were no
imposition from the Mullahs, as the number of mosques in that region is
very minimal and that area never saw big mullahs, the same people who
sing the Mahabharat Kahanis are the imams, in fact (a recent India Today
report - in which the photograph of the imam singing Ramkatha was
published). Any community, not a stray human being who was forcibly
converted would get rid of that in the very first opportunity in the
very first generation after the conversion. Meos are there for a long
long time and nothing happened . Indonesians still keep so-called
"Hindu" names and "Hindu" epics, but they are least interested tod get
reconverted, they are devout muslims and no less muslims than the Saudis
or Pakistanis. VHPs have tried to reconvert for a long time and always
had been a failure in the most disastrous sense of the word. People are
not toys , nor they are pigs in the hands of casteist VHPs, they have
strong reasons in whatever they are doing. The family of Bardhaman think
they are non-converts and they detested any suggestion of converting
into Hinduism. The present patriarch of the family is himself a HAji and
is the chief patron of the local Musjid. World does not go in the VHP
binary way. VHP is licking the sputum of the colonial binary
distinctionary attitude. Indian never knew that, India always welcomed
outsiders, they came, they ruled, they mingled , they settled, they
sacrificed, they laid down their lives and they defended India, except
the British , they wanted to justify their scooting, they inculcated the
binary distinction,their trusted fifth columnist army- the VHP. Supratik
here reverberates the sounds of the binary gutters(I am not sure if he
understands the meaning of the word binary distinction in social and
cultural studies). Syncretism is a very novel phenomenon professed in
India by Sufi cult of Islam and the non-conformist anti-casteist
bhakti-shakti cults among the present Hindus.
>
> While it is true that historical events have made many sections of Indian
> society 'syncretic', what is wrong is to misinterpret them as is being
> done by Marxist idiots.
THis part is true from Supratik-speak. Any thing which does not conform
to the BAjrang or Bandar dal is mis-interpretation, that is true there.
>
> Supratik
Soumitra Bose
Pran Lal wrote:
>
> >
> >This is not surprising, given the syncretic traditions of Bengal. Many
> >"poTua"s (people who paint "pot"s) , for example, are Muslim, although
> >the poTs are usually drawn from Hindu religious traditions. I have in
> >my possession a poT representing the goddess Durga which was painted
> >by a Muslim poTua from Burdwan district by the name of Aleqjan.
> >
>
> Perhaps with some ulterior motive. There is no such thing as
> "syncretic" in the sense that Sayan alludes to. And there is nothing
> of Hindi heartland classical musicians have sung Hindu bhajans
> since quite a some time. Most of the brassware makers, (who
> also make a lot of Hindu icons) from Merruth are Muslim.
> The marriage rituals of Muslims in UP are to large extents
> similar to those of their Hindu counterparts. To argue that
> all this is a sign of syncretism, (in the sense that the ideologies
> of Islam and Hinduism have met at someplace somehow) is
> an erroneous judgement at the best.
>
> This syncretism has had two reasons.
>
> 1. Economic. For instance, it is the money, that makes a brassware
> maker to make Hindu moortis. It is the same money, that leads
> a Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan to sing Vande Mataram.
Well, well, money did make Girish Sen translate Quran for the first time
, I guess, Did it ????
Money did make Ramkrishna practice Kalma in his life ??Did it, Money
did make Vivekananda deliver lectures on Islam, did it ???????
Money does make the whole of Indonesia still retain their epics and
culture , did it ??? Whom did hte Indonesians wanted to placate ?????
Money made Kazi Nazrul create Kali kirtans and write Shyama Sangeets did
it ?? Money made Mirza Ghalib respect Hindu customs and then get nearly
ostracized by the Mullahs???did it??? Money did make Nando Rishi of
Kashmir study all the religions and get ostracized by Mullahs , did it
??? Money did incite Kabir Jola,Guru Nanak start a movement did it ????
Money did cajole Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accept the verdicts of Daulat KAji
?? Did it ??????? Well, The answer is blowing in the wind and that
answer VHP does not want us to know.....
>
> 2. Incomplete Conversion: It is the strength of Hinduism and its
> culture, that has not gone from the hearts of so many converts
> despite the pressure of proselytizing zealots. In that sense,
> the job of proselytizers remains incomplete. For instance, we
> have this Islamic concept of ideological purging (i think called
> tabliki) that keeps on insisting that the Indian Muslims keep on
> purifiying their acts, and customs, and purge all those of Hindu
> influences. However, this is an ever continuing process. During
> certain periods, the proponents of Islam did achieve success
> to a remarkable degree. At other times, they failed. One period
> when they did achieve tremendous success was during the initial
> British Raj in Bengal. In those times, these 'reform" movements
> led the Bengali Muslims to adopt names of Persian and Arabic
> origin. The very same movements led them to adopt a whole
> range of "Islamic" cultural mores, and divorced them from
> "Hindu" mores. And the very same movements, led to the
> creation of Bengali Muslim identity, which was later used
> as a rationale by Curzon to divide Bengal. And it is the same
> factor, that in a sense leads to this debate of "jal" v/s "paani"
> and Bengali v/s Bangla debates on this very forum.
>
AHA!!! here is the face of SOHEL.Q KHAN's under the mask of NAcho mere
jan the PRan-lal . HEre comes the voice of "Modern Bangla" and "Old
Bengali" of Sohel Khan , this time through the gab of
PRan-lal-the-NAcho. I was waiting for all these , for so
long...OOOOOHHHH!!!!! . How could i become so lucky ......HERE it IS ,
this time the whole damn Hippo coming out of the closet ......
HEre again , so deeply VHP believes that there is something called "Old
Bengali" and something else called "Modern BAngla". And here we are
having spend so much time after Sohel Q Khan , not realizing that the
real source is from the fountain-head of VHP/BJP/SS , which is in fact
the same fountainhead as JAmaat.
No wonder before the BAbri massacre Nijami of JAmat Bangladesh had to go
to L.K.ADVANI and M.M.JOSHI to fetch their blessings .
> In short, the idea of "syncretic" culture, as foolishly touted by
> our leftist brethern is a foolish one, as it tries to sweep the basic
> Hindu-Muslim differences under the rug. And to some extent,
> theories like these, are also dangerous, since they may once
> again lead to one more division of Bengal.
>
this is the exact same word re-iterated many times By Muhammed ali
Jinnah in numerous of his lectures before the Partition and that which
is now touted by Akbar Ahmed and the pro-partition intellectuals of
PAkistan .This is the same words written by MAulana Maududi .. THE
FAMOUS TWO NATION THEORY .........
This is the real face behind the mask...
> nachiketa
fposs
Supratik aje baaje likheche to Naeem khisti die bhaloi koreche!
Ajkal dekchi sobai "tattik" hoeyeche. Je kono dhormio issue nie
alochona holei hoy "Marxist paradigm" die define korte hocche.
Bangalider baaje bokar obbhas onek purno (Moglai somoy theke
bodhoy). Apnara "Marxism" ki bojhen? Das Kapital er kuri pata
peronor por to dante dant lege jae!
Sobai computer er saamne bose bhoyanok gombhir bisoy nie
alochonar chesta ta bes bokamor porjay chole jaache. Kindly
kothay kothay lokke "Marxist", "Leftist" label marben na.
Ingrajite "Liberal" boleo ekta kotaha ache.
Pran Lal
SB_speak
>Syncretism is a very novel phenomenon professed in
>India by Sufi cult of Islam and the non-conformist anti-casteist
>bhakti-shakti cults among the present Hindus.
As far as the Sufis are concerned, they are pretty clear
in their thoughts about Hinduism. This is what an average
Sufist would think like:
1. All religions are useless, as far as approaching Allah
is concerned. This is so since a Sufi would believe
in having a personal relationship with God.
2. However, the only religion that serves some meaning
ful purpose in reaching God is Islam, and only Islam.
Where does that leave you O Blonde Aryan BenGauli.
nachiketa
Abhijit Mitra
I honestly do not see what all the fuss is about. Call it syncretism, or call
it 'incomplete conversion' or call it anything else, what difference does it
make? The point that I believe they're trying to make by pointing out the
Muslims doing Durga Puja is one of tolerance, as opposed to bigotry and blind
devotion to dogma. This is probably somewhat akin to a recent article in the
internet edition of the Times of India (9/25/97 i believe) about pandals in
Calcutta Durga Pujas placing moortis of Mother Teresa, who was a CHRISTIAN
missionary, next to that of Durga Ma. There's nothing wrong with it, nor is
this a Marxist conspiracy of any sort. However, I do think it reflects a
certain flexibility that West Bengalis have, as compared to people in say,
Uttar Pradesh. It is perhaps this flexibility, that has allowed us to keep a
communist party in power for over 2 decades. The flexibility itself, in my
opinion, is a good thing and should be commended... the results of it however,
may or may not be good. The ability to transcend religious barriers is a good
thing, although WBs Commie govt is probably not so good (but not all bad,
either).
-A.M.
Pran Lal
No Abhijit, that is not the point. I agree with you that it is a good
thing to be flexible. But then, I do not think that anyone
I condemned flexibility. Rather the point was that this halo
around syncretism should be more carefully examined. It is one
thing to indulge in diversity because of your conviction. It is
altogether another thing to indulge in it because you had a sword
on your head, and your conversion was incomplete. Because
of the latter is the case, then the one's who converted, given
time will not spare efforts to complete the conversion process.
People can argue, that perhaps I am being too paranoid. But,
what I am saying stands testified by India's historical experience.
Not a very long time back, for instance, the Bengali Muslims
used to participate in Durga Puja in extremely large numbers.
That situation has changed considerably in the last two centuries
because of the efforts of various Islamic "reform" movements.
So, while a progressive can keep on uttering that I am being
paranoid, since Bengal or even India has been syncretic, he
in reality has swept a lot of stuff, (which troubles him) under
the rug. This habit of turning a blind eye to unsavory facts,
is also dangerous, since while I am sleeping (or have turned
my eyes closed), the virus of seccesionism is happily breeding down under.
In madarsaas. And the spread of these _oh_we_
were_all_happily_living_together theories do not reach the
madarsaas.
nachiketa
Pradip Gangopadhyay
Soumitra Bose <sb...@ctp.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Jotho Dosh/Marxist Ghosh (Re: 14% Hindu & Muslim)
>>Supratik Das wrote:
>>
>> What is this bullshit of 'syncretism'? Lets face it. Bengalies lost
>> battles. We never managed to fight the Afghan and Pathans who became
>> Nawabs and Sultans controlling large portions of Bengal. Besides much of
>> the folk culture tried to absorb Islamic influences brought by the invader
>> through the aul-baul culture.
[......]
>that is what and how we pay to stay with India. Someone who is
>unfortunately born in a bengali family and has least knowledge of its
>culture and tradition and the sacrifices and power of the bengalees , is
>now bitten by the bugs of the Tikkidhari hindi-hindutvawallahs. It is
>good that such creatures are around , we would know the path NOT to
>take. I thought those who even fails the history exams in the class 6 o
>7 history tests in their schools know that Bengalee Nawabs and Baro
>BhNuiyas fought, resisted and kicked out centralized rules from
>Delhi.Now I know some characters did not even read any books and still
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>manage to graduate .
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Where did the "Bengali" Nawabs come from? Were they Bengalis? If they faught
central Delhi rule they did so for their own interests. They were no friends
of Bengali hindu population. It seems that some characters have read books and
can vomit their staff but are unable to think on their own. Why some Bengali
Hindus love the so called "Bengali" Nawabs is beyond me. One such Nawab founded
the Muslim League in 1906 that eventually led to the partition of Bengal. It
seems that even after being kicked in the backside some characters have not
learnt to think.
Pradip Gangopadhyay
pchatto...@ies-energy.com
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.970926013819.27204B-100000@post>, Supratik says...
>
>
>
>
>On 25 Sep 1997, Pradip Gangopadhyay wrote:
>
>> Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.m...@homebox.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Supratik Das wrote:
>> >> However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
>> >> 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that.
>>
>>
>> >Marxist paradigm er ki dekhla?
>>
>> >SUpratic, thoke keu pattha dei na, tharporeo pyan pyan kore jash.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >Ja ja, aro forced conversion kor giya..o sorry, "re-education"
>> >14% jindabad/joi!!
>>
>> You did not agree with Supratic's views and could have just stated that. Why
>> use "tui" and then "thoke keu pattha dei na"? Why such personal attacks?
>
>Thanks Pradip.
>
>Oi "tui" bole Supratik Daske thakano jabena. Sotti bolbo, jorer songey
It is like calling a "half-filled" glass as a "half-empty" one and then
boasting about speaking out the truth. One does that only out of paranoia
or vindictiveness or with ulterior motives.
For example, I will call a person semi-literate for his/her lack of
knowledge only if I want to incite the person.
Thanks,
Partha Chatterjee
>
[deleted]
Abhijit Mitra
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>I agree with you that it is a good thing to be flexible.
I hope you would also agree that this 'flexibility' is a part of our Hindu
faith (anekantavaad).
>Rather the point was that this halo around syncretism should be more carefully
>examined.
Everything in life should be carefully examined and studied, so why not this?
We are in agreement.
>It is one thing to indulge in diversity because of your conviction. It is
>altogether another thing to indulge in it because you had a sword
>on your head, and your conversion was incomplete.
Again, we are in agreement. My understanding of your position is this - that
diversity is a good thing, if it happens as a result of our own free will; and
that it is a bad thing, if this 'diversity' was created in society by the use
of force. Correct?
So the way I see it is this - your argument basically rests upon one crucial
premise - that all (or most of) this diversity was made to happen by force.
Am I correct?
>Because of the latter is the case, then the one's who converted, given
>time will not spare efforts to complete the conversion process.
>People can argue, that perhaps I am being too paranoid.
You start off with 'because the latter is the case'. Obviously, you are
assuming this to be true. But I have a feeling that you are somehow confusing
the issues here (of course, I may be wrong). Popular belief is, that, by and
large, the spread of Islam in India was undertaken by force. While I do believe
this to be true, I do not believe that is the issue here. Muslims performing
Durga Puja or Hindus putting up Mother Teresa up with Ma Durga, as I see it,
has precious little to do with 'incomplete conversion'. While Muslims may
attend Durga Puja, I highly doubt that any Muslim 'worships' Ma Durga as a God,
which Hindus do. What that means is this - that attending Durga Puja, while it
is a religious ceremony for many Hindus, is nothing more than a cultural fiesta
for those Muslims who do attend. Have you ever been to WB during Puja season?
If you haven't, you should - I mean it! The atmosphere of joy and abandon that
grips West Bengal during the Puja season is really something worth seeing - so
much so, that it transcends mere religious significance, and takes on the role
of a cultural festival.
Another little tidbit I'd like to add - Durga Puja is also a big thing in the
town in Uttar Pradesh I grew up in, Allahabad. This should be amazing, given
the rapid decrease in Bengali population there in the last decade. However,
today, many Durga Pujas are organized by non-Bengalis - such is the appeal.
But wait, I haven't told you the BEST part of it all - in many predominantly
Muslim neighborhoods of Allahabad, Durga Puja is also held. It is organized
by GUESS WHO - the local neighborhood people, most of whom are Muslim. Is THIS
also a symptom of 'incomplete conversion' ? No, it is not. So what is it? It
is merely a cultural statement... it is 'syncretism'.
Now, touching upon your paranoia about the converters coming back to fully
convert the half-converted; I frankly don't know what to say to you. You are
paranoid, and I am sure you have your reasons to be so. However, all I ask of
you is to go attend a Durga Puja in West Bengal (or any of the major towns in
UP, Delhi or Bombay). What you will see will not be an example of 'incomplete
conversion', rather it will be a beautiful example of what being Indian is
really all about.
>This habit of turning a blind eye to unsavory facts, is also dangerous..
It is dangerous, no argument there. But there is one other thing that is
equally as dangerous - that is the habit of seeing the Devil everywhere. He
may exist, and he may be lurking in our shadows unbeknownst to us all, but
he is not everywhere. Try to see some good sometimes... you'll be amazed how
'ati sundar' our Bharat Mata will look to your eyes!
>the virus of seccesionism is happily breeding down under. In madarsaas.
Actually, the threat of secessionism in India lies more within Kashmir (a
localised dispute) and the North-East (a dispute arising out of decades of
neglect and apathy). But you seem to believe that it lies within madraasas,
in which case you should be able to answer this -
(1) The past 5-10 years has seen a tremendous rise in Hindu militancy. Why is
it that no Muslim counter-offensive has emerged?
(2) Where in India (with the exception of Kashmir), do you see Madraasa
generated fundies, asking for a separate nation?
-A.M.
pchatto...@ies-energy.com
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.970926012905.27204A-100000@post>, Supratik says...
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
>
>>
>> > >On 24 Sep 1997, sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>>
>> > > >Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
>>> > >> > 1. Ajker www.westbengal.com e ekta durdhosshyo khobor berieychhe .
>> > > >> > "Bordhomane ekti Muslim poribaar sat purush dhore Durga Puja
>> > > >> > korchhen".
>>> > >> > Era sat purush dhorei mussalman chilen ebong kokhono hindu hoie
>>jaowar
>> > > >> > kothai bhabenni. Ender modhye Hajio achhen.
>>
>>
>> > 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Huhhhh? Kisher moddhe ki, pantha bhath-e ghee.."syncretism" er modhe
>> Marxist paradigm er ki dekhla?
>
>
>fellum. Makura abar sotti kotha sojyo korte pare na tate ki amar dosh.
>
>
>
>Supratik
>
But, you didn't answer that why do you think "syncretism" is a Marxist
paradigm. Do you have any specific reference which says that the idea
of "syncretism" was mooted by some Marxist or only the Marxists beleive
in "syncretism"?
Thanks,
Partha Chatterjee
Naeem Mohaiemen
Supratik Das wrote:>
> >On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
> > Supratik Das wrote:>
> > > However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
> > > 'syncretic'.
> > Huhhhh? Kisher moddhe ki, pantha bhath-e ghee.."syncretism" er modhe
> > Marxist paradigm er ki dekhla?
> Ki Naeem Bhai kata ghay nuner chita laglo naki?
Na-re, khub beshi hole ektu kathukuthu legeche.
"Kata gha" tho ekti-y chilo (applicable to Muslims), thao shere geche
onek age.. :-)
> Naki sotti kotha bole fellum.
Nah, mone hoi mittha-y bolli.
>Makura abar sotti kotha sojyo korte pare na tate ki amar dosh.
Ohhh, legeche, legeche..thor ehen shokthishali debating style er shamne
ami ekebare kaboo..
> > SUpratic, thoke keu pattha dei na, tharporeo pyan pyan kore jash.
> Se ki Guru. Tumi thakte amake ki kore patta debe.
Kotha ta thik.
> Tar opor Sayan, Soumyo, Nalin, Soumi aro sob Maku pundit thakte amar moton chuno puti ki kore
> patta pabe. Chi Chi bhabteo lojja lage.
Lagai uchith.
> > Ja ja, aro forced conversion kor giya..o sorry, "re-education"
> Ei je Guru sotti kotha sojhyo holo na. Nijeke ainar samne ki turki mone
> hoi? Sala, itihashe je dekhi patihash.
Recent itishash er kotha bolcho? 1987 er por? Mone hoi she khethre amar
kotha thik-i ache.
Naki abar shei "Mughul amol-e thora ei korechish, oi korechish" pyan
pyan lagabi?
> > 14% jindabad/joi!!
> Tomader 'syncretismer' dhop diye amar pechon muchi.
Tha bhalo, besh durgondho hoe giechilo, ektu mocha dorkar.
"Keu keu abar shei jinish, jeti chara bidesh e ekdom chole na, sheti
komor-e bedhe douracche"
> Supratik
--Naeem Maku (another beautiful Bangla name)
Pran Lal
>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>
>
>>of it. Do these Muslims believe in Hindu customs and rituals by
>
Good that you realized that. Or else, you would only have gotten
frustrated.
>what I am trying to tell you is that you (and other accolytes of
>the Vishwa Bhangsevak Parishad) identify people simply by their
>stated religious identity. However, human societies are not
>monodimensional and religious differences, as drivers of human
>actions, are unusual. When you do, you get the langotization of
>the past and the destruction of Babri Masjid and the 3,000 dead
>in those riots. It is not unique to India and the langots produce
>the counter-langots in Bangladesh or Pakistan. An example: you
>(or some other net-langot) posted about how Mahmud of Ghazni destroyed
>temples in Western India. That is historically true. However, was
>it religious?
1. What has BJP and Babri got to do with this topic.
2. The creation of Pakistan, and the creation of E. Bengal prior
to it, does show that the Ummah of India of past WAS indeed
driven by religious drives overwhelmingly. So stop preaching.
3. Ghazni did destroy temples. And yes, the reasons were
religious in nature.
>Well if it were, how do you explain that Mahmud's primary
>commander in India was a Hindu with the name of Ramnath and a very
>large part of his army was Hindu. He also used the same army in his
>battles in Central Asia and destroyed Bukhara where his enemies were
>mostly Muslims. So saying "Muslim plunderers like Mahmud" is definitely
>a langotization of history caused by the bhang.
Ramnath might have been a greed guy. He might have sold
his soul. How does that change things. Did Ghazni break any
masjids in Central Asia. And why did he force thousands
of Hindus to accept Islam or !!! His plunderings definitely
had an religious dimension.
Then you get the
>counter-langotization in Pakistan or Bangladesh of calling Mahmud a
>Ghazi. Another example, you claim that Muslim Bengalis had Hindu
>names 250 years back and also talked about the half-converted
>Hindus. Well no evidence on the name front. It is also a fact that
>in most of East Bengal the landowners remained Hindu with a peasantry
>becoming mostly Muslim.
Read evidence thru the books of Rafiuddin Ahmed.
> The process of conversion is not well-understood.
>However, the primary mechanism is supposed to have been acculturation,
>i.e. people adopting more and more Muslim practices over time
>with the involvement of the pirs in the process.
So!!! Did I say that E Bengali Muslims were converted by
and large forcibly. But the Islamization of their culture
did occur later as a consequence of later "reform"
movements. And that marked the death knell of "syncretism".
You also claimed that
>there is something Vedic in the syncretism. Well that is in the same
>class as langot-claim about Pushpak Rath.
Forget Pushpak. I will give you two Vedic verses.
1. Let noble thoughts come from all sides.
2. Like all waters from rain merge into one ocean, similarly
all modes of worship reach Him.
These are not stmts of "syncretism". Rather they are
reflections of a harmony based thought system. How does
this compare with Mohammed's breaking of idols, and
the Koranic diktat: Slay the infidels.
> I told you about the syncretism
>in the Middle East and North Africa. The process of acculturation is
>still going on in Africa and occurred in Egypt or Iran. Do start seeing
>something beyond religion alone.
So!!!
nachiketa
Pran Lal
>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>
>>I agree with you that it is a good thing to be flexible.
>
>I hope you would also agree that this 'flexibility' is a part of our Hindu
>faith (anekantavaad).
Partially agreed.
>
>>Rather the point was that this halo around syncretism should be more
>carefully
>>examined.
>
>Everything in life should be carefully examined and studied, so why not this?
>We are in agreement.
Yes we are.
>>It is one thing to indulge in diversity because of your conviction. It is
>>altogether another thing to indulge in it because you had a sword
>>on your head, and your conversion was incomplete.
>
>Again, we are in agreement. My understanding of your position is this - that
>diversity is a good thing, if it happens as a result of our own free will;
>and
>that it is a bad thing, if this 'diversity' was created in society by the use
>of force. Correct?
I am not sure as to what you mean by "diversity" by "force". So,
I will try to restate what I think. This syncretic nature in India
was a consequence of PARTIAL conversion of people. For instance
in Goa, the Portugese beat the hell out of Hindus and managed
to convert a lot of them to Christianity. However, they could
not change the social and cultural mores of these folks totally
(although they would have liked to do that too). Consequently,
a lot of present Goan Christians still practice a lot of "Hindu"
customs to this date. But I will not celeberate this sort of
"syncretism". There is nothing to celeberate about it. All I can
say is that I was tortured in past, and my tormentors were only
partial succesfull.
>So the way I see it is this - your argument basically rests upon one crucial
>premise - that all (or most of) this diversity was made to happen by force.
>Am I correct?
Pl. read above.
>>Because of the latter is the case, then the one's who converted, given
>>time will not spare efforts to complete the conversion process.
>>People can argue, that perhaps I am being too paranoid.
>
>You start off with 'because the latter is the case'. Obviously, you are
>assuming this to be true. But I have a feeling that you are somehow confusing
>the issues here (of course, I may be wrong). Popular belief is, that, by and
>large, the spread of Islam in India was undertaken by force. While I do
>believe
>this to be true, I do not believe that is the issue here. Muslims performing
>Durga Puja or Hindus putting up Mother Teresa up with Ma Durga, as I see it,
>has precious little to do with 'incomplete conversion'. While Muslims may
>attend Durga Puja, I highly doubt that any Muslim 'worships' Ma Durga as a
>God,
>which Hindus do. What that means is this - that attending Durga Puja, while
>it
>is a religious ceremony for many Hindus, is nothing more than a cultural
>fiesta
>for those Muslims who do attend. Have you ever been to WB during Puja season?
I have not been to Durga Puja in WB. But I have seen similar
interactions elsewhere. For instance in parts of Rajasthan that
I have seen, there are Chouhan Muslims, who worship Durga
on the occasion of Vijayadashmi, very religiously. Another
example is of the Dagar bandhus, who would worship Hindu
Deities before starting their daily exercises. Then there was this
Maihar Baabaa, the Guru of Pt. RaviShankar, who would start
his day by worshiping Goddess in a temple located on top of
a mountain. And I can bet you that a lot of these people do all
that in 100% earnestness. But then, people who belong to such
"syncretic" groups have always been targetted for "purification
and reform" on a consistent basic by Islamic purists.
>If you haven't, you should - I mean it! The atmosphere of joy and abandon
>that
>grips West Bengal during the Puja season is really something worth seeing -
>so
>much so, that it transcends mere religious significance, and takes on the
>role
>of a cultural festival.
I agree.
>Another little tidbit I'd like to add - Durga Puja is also a big thing in the
>town in Uttar Pradesh I grew up in, Allahabad. This should be amazing, given
>the rapid decrease in Bengali population there in the last decade. However,
>today, many Durga Pujas are organized by non-Bengalis - such is the appeal.
>But wait, I haven't told you the BEST part of it all - in many predominantly
>Muslim neighborhoods of Allahabad, Durga Puja is also held. It is organized
>by GUESS WHO - the local neighborhood people, most of whom are Muslim. Is
>THIS
>also a symptom of 'incomplete conversion' ? No, it is not. So what is it? It
>is merely a cultural statement... it is 'syncretism'.
The forces of conversion and assimilation have always been
operational. So, if I think that 5 centuries back from today, people
were converted and then things were left to themselves, I would
be wrong. Similarly, if I think that the process of assimilation
of Muslims into the Indian fabric has stopped sometime back,
I would be incorrect again. There is a good chance that left
to himself, the grandson of Imam Bukhari might as well be celeberating
Diwali or Puja in his or her own way. Sometime
back, when we had this rumour or whatever of Lord Ganesh
drinking milk from true bhakts, my people ran into a Muslim,
who went to a temple to offer milk to Lord Ganesh. And
he later after coming out, started claiming that the Lord did
drink from his hand, and said "Jai Ganesh Devaa" a couple
of times. And almost instantly, he was instantly chided by some
of his other Muslim brethern for practicising buta_parastee.
In this small incident, you see two sets of forces at work.
And they will always be at work at all times.
>
>>This habit of turning a blind eye to unsavory facts, is also dangerous..
>
>It is dangerous, no argument there. But there is one other thing that is
>equally as dangerous - that is the habit of seeing the Devil everywhere. He
>may exist, and he may be lurking in our shadows unbeknownst to us all, but
>he is not everywhere. Try to see some good sometimes... you'll be amazed how
>'ati sundar' our Bharat Mata will look to your eyes!
I try not to do that. i.e.seeing Devil everywhere. But anyway,
your advice is a good one, and needs to be constantly reinforced.
I will keep that in mind.
>
>>the virus of seccesionism is happily breeding down under. In madarsaas.
>
>Actually, the threat of secessionism in India lies more within Kashmir (a
>localised dispute) and the North-East (a dispute arising out of decades of
>neglect and apathy). But you seem to believe that it lies within madraasas,
>in which case you should be able to answer this -
>(1) The past 5-10 years has seen a tremendous rise in Hindu militancy. Why is
>it that no Muslim counter-offensive has emerged?
>(2) Where in India (with the exception of Kashmir), do you see Madraasa
>generated fundies, asking for a separate nation?
>
>-A.M.
The answer is two fold.
1. In other places, we still do not see the existence of political
states like J&K, which have a majority of Muslims.
2. 5-10 yrs are still too less of a time for the generation of a
rationale, genuine or otherwise, for such a demand. For instance, it took
quite a bit of time, money and resources for the militant elements
in Kashmir to reach their current levels. Similarly, it took a more
than a 100 yrs for the Muslims in Bengal, to develop a sense
of Bengali Muslim identity and the basis of a separate E. Bengal,
which later became BD
nachiketa
Partha Chatterjee
In article <19970927020...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, pra...@aol.com
says...
>
>>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>>
>>
[deleted]
>
>Forget Pushpak. I will give you two Vedic verses.
>
>1. Let noble thoughts come from all sides.
>2. Like all waters from rain merge into one ocean, similarly
> all modes of worship reach Him.
>
>These are not stmts of "syncretism". Rather they are
>reflections of a harmony based thought system. How does
>this compare with Mohammed's breaking of idols, and
>the Koranic diktat: Slay the infidels.
>
>nachiketa
>
>
What you say about the Koranic diktat may be disputed. I have a
different question - the Islamic aversion to polytheism and the
concept of one and only true religion is directly inherited from
the Jews (do you need citation? I hope the Old Testament would
be good enough), now it is understandable that you are all praise
about the openness of Hinduism and hateful about the bigotry of
Islam but how then come you and your alikes have come out in defence
of Israel which proclaims itself as a Jewish state? I think if
you denounce bigotry you should do so for every variety of it.
It seems to me that your position is to give the dog a bad name
and hang it and therefore you act in a rabid manner whenever
anybody says of assimilation.
Thanks,
Partha Chatterjee
Pran Lal
>What you say about the Koranic diktat may be disputed. I have a
>different question - the Islamic aversion to polytheism and the
>concept of one and only true religion is directly inherited from
>the Jews (do you need citation? I hope the Old Testament would
>be good enough), now it is understandable that you are all praise
>about the openness of Hinduism and hateful about the bigotry of
>Islam but how then come you and your alikes have come out in defence
>of Israel which proclaims itself as a Jewish state? I think if
>you denounce bigotry you should do so for every variety of it.
The Jews have not tormented me, nor my ancestors. That is
one reason why I would not bother about Jews, or Old Testament.
Still further, amongst all the midEastern states, it is the Jewish
state of Israel that is the MOST open and MOST tolerant.
Despite all that stuff in OT. So why should I bother. It seems
that they have left the bad stuff in OT for past only, for good.
Perhaps that is one reason, why I would not be hanged or
shot to death, if I managed to convert a Jew to Hinduism
in Israel. Further, I do not think that any proponent of Judaism
or Christianity was so much of an insane person as Mohammed.
Sure, he needs a lot of peace bestowed upon him. And
finally, I will advocate in favor of Israel for reasons of pragmatism.
5 decades of a rabid almost fanatical anti-Jewish policy on part of the
GOI has given us zilch. It is time we tried a new formula.
And then I forgot:
If tomorrow, they (Jews) say and do the same stuff what Islamic
proponents have done, then yes, my reaction will be the
same.
That is my response. About the rest of "my alikes" ask them.
I speak for myself. I rarely dabble in "we_think".
BTW, what is the reason why you denounce the Jewish
state, and remain silent on grade 1 examples of intolerance
like S. Arabia. Or is it that the answer to that question has
to be sought from the bygone thekedars of Soviet Union.
nachiketa
Akhtar Siddique
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>Ramnath might have been a greed guy. He might have sold
>his soul. How does that change things. Did Ghazni break any
>masjids in Central Asia. And why did he force thousands
>of Hindus to accept Islam or !!! His plunderings definitely
>had an religious dimension.
Well what do you know, if you destroy a city you destroy mosques in
it as well. For that matter, the primary target of Mahmud was the
treasures that the temples had. Is there any evidence that Mahmud
forced people to convert to Islam? I certainly have not read of any.
It sounds very much like that hundreds of temples Aurangzeb is said to
have destroyed. Sometimes back I read that most of the stories of
Aurangzeb's destruction actually originated in the early nineteenth century
after Elphinstone's history book was written.
Anyway going back to Mahmud, his destructions were not unique. Realize that
until the Mughal times, western India probably had stronger links to
Central Asia/Iran. Punjab had been an Iranian satrapy after all. Even
Chandragupta's Mayur is supposed to have been an Iranian symbol. Mahmud was
preceded by the Hindushahis, and Nadir Shah was probably the last example
of a powerful Central Asian/Indian king invading Western India/Central Asia.
--Akhtar Siddique
Abhijit Mitra
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>I am not sure as to what you mean by "diversity" by "force".
Well, these were your words - "It (diversity) is altogether another thing to
indulge in ... because you had a sword over your head".
THAT is what I meant... I was merely trying to restate your argument.
>This syncretic nature in India
>was a consequence of PARTIAL conversion of people.
Yes, I heard you loud and clear the last time. That is why I brought up the
case of Allahabadi Muslims who take part in Durga Puja festivities. There is no
doubt that these Muslims are "complete" Muslims, however, regardless, they take
part in Durga Puja festivities. I also pointed out the statues of Mother Teresa
in many Durga Puja pandals in Calcutta - is that also incomplete conversion?
And what about all the Hindu and Muslim Bengalis who attended Mother Teresas
CATHOLIC funeral; was that another case of incomplete conversion?
While I do not, for an instant, DOUBT your contention that some of the Muslims
who perform Durga Puja may be due to "incomplete conversion" (whatever that
means), all I am saying is, many, maybe even MOST of these cases are indeed
examples of syncretism and not "incomplete conversion".
>Consequently, a lot of present Goan Christians still practice a lot of "Hindu"
>customs to this date. But I will not celeberate this sort of
>"syncretism".
I see your point and I agree with you. If past generations of Hindus were
tortured at the hands of foriegners, then that is nothing to be proud of.
However, I believe (yes, this is only a belief, so you are more than welcome to
correct me) that what was the case in one part of the nation need not be the
case in another part of the nation. I also believe that a major reason the
Portugese were not able to eradicate 'hindu' customs, is the strength of Hindu
culture, which is indeed, something to be celebrated.
One more thing - about the Muslim family in Bordhomaan, are you trying to imply
that they celebrate Durga Puja unknowingly, that they are not cognisant of the
fact that Durga Puja is not Islamic?
>There is nothing to celeberate about it. All I can
>say is that I was tortured in past, and my tormentors were only
>partial succesfull.
There IS something to celebrate in that. Examine the spread of Islam, both to
the east and the west (from its starting point in Saudi Arabia); how many
cultures have survived in its path? I believe the answer to that question, once
you realise it, will be in itself reason to celebrate.
>I have not been to Durga Puja in WB.
You are missing out... I mean it.
>in parts of Rajasthan there are Chouhan Muslims, who worship Durga very
>religiously.
"Very religiously" ??????
What exactly does that mean, anyways? Are you referring to enthusiasm ? - in
which case it is very possible they engage in such celebration with great joy
and abandon, simply because they ENJOY it (therefore the enthusiasm), but does
that necessarily imply that they have 'forgotten' that Durga is not their God?
Is this 'incomplete conversion' confusing them ???? Somehow, I doubt it.
[a few more examples snipped out...]
>And I can bet you that a lot of these people do all
>that in 100% earnestness.
100% earnestness meaning what? That they BELIEVE that Durga or Kali or Parvati
or Saraswati or Hanuman is really God, and not A11ah? Like I said before, I
don't think there is a single community of Muslims alive that would say or
believe that.
>But then, people who belong to such
>"syncretic" groups have always been targetted for "purification
>and reform" on a consistent basic by Islamic purists.
True. But it's not only them - Hindus are also subjected to 'purification'
attempts. In our case, these attempts come from GOVERNMENT itself. Why else was
I told in my I.C.S.E and I.C.S. (10th and 12th) exams that I would lose points
in my essay in my Hindi exam if I used any words that were `Urdu'? Nevermind
the fact that many of these words are in common use all over Hindi speaking
India, that does not matter; it is governments DUTY to de-urdu-ize the spoken
Hindi, right? Also, in my 5th or 6th standard history textbook, there was a
chapter called the "Ramayana". The sheer ludicrity of introducing a myth as
HISTORY is simply unimaginable.
>The forces of conversion and assimilation have always been
>operational.
Absolutely. And if the current Indian cultural landscape is any indication,
then Indian Muslims are in no way, losing their 'Indianness'.
>And almost instantly, he was instantly chided by some
>of his other Muslim brethern for practicising buta_parastee.
Yet, so many Indian Muslims, both in India and here in the US, participate in
'Hindu' festivals, albeit not in a religious sense, but because they simply
wanna enjoy themselves.
>1. In other places, we still do not see the existence of political
> states like J&K, which have a majority of Muslims.
But there are areas with large concentrations of Muslim populations in India.
Do any of them have a significant anti-national problem? Example, do any of
Muslims in these areas engage in regular (or irregular) infringements of the
law with the intent of making a statement against government?
>2. 5-10 yrs are still too less of a time for the generation of a
>rationale, genuine or otherwise, for such a demand.
Fine.
Well, are there any rumblings, so to speak... any indications of an emergence
of an organised Muslim resistance to the BJP/RSS ? And to get to your point,
if such 'rumblings' exist, are they coming out of 'madraasas' ?
-A.M.
Soumitra Bose
Is that Average Sufi named Pran-Lal-mere-nachnewallah-jan ??????
>
> Where does that leave you O Blonde Aryan BenGauli.
> Bengalees are proud race of non-aryans , we do not agree with Aryanism
..Aryans are rapists and are plunderers , who started by plundering
Harappa Mohenjodaro and Naimisharayanya, they are doing it through
Golwalkarism. Bengal opposed them thoughout and are still doing so .
> nachiketa
Soumitra Bose
> >> >>Perhaps with some ulterior motive. There is no such thing as
> >> >>"syncretic" in the sense that Sayan alludes to. And there is nothing
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >For once get rid of the langot and cut down on bhang dose. Syncretism
>
> >> >
> >>
> >> Did you read my entire post. Or you just had to react for the heck
> >> of past. Do the Islamic thekedars in Bengal and elsewhere do not
> >> try to get rid the momin of all these kaafeeree influences. Or is it
> >> their view that these influences are a good idea. Answer these
> >
> >
> >was an unconscious poet , when he wrote MA amina r kole Rasul sona dole
> >, in the allusion of Krishna with Jashoda .
> >
> >So how come many hindu mothers take their kid to the local dargah to get
> >a jolpora from the pir sahib. Are they toiling under some sort of a
> >hang-over ??????? How come the imambaras of West Bengal are more visited
> >and revered by Hindus than by muslims ???? is that a reverse hang-over
> >???? and what a nice thing to know that most of the Indians are
> >un-conscious and PRan-lal-the-nacho is one of the few bandars who is not
>
> Who knows. Maybe!! Ask Nazrul for his sake. After all, OLD HABITS
> DIE HARD.
Wow!!!! another gem, Kazi NAzrul Islam acted from within his
sub-conscious!!!!!! that is what happens when someone talks or writes
about something which he has no clue about. The bankruptcy of VHP has
gone so blatant that it cannot teach its cadres the basic human value of
not opening one's gab without knowing it , nor can it encourage its
supporters to read and learn about the culture and history of the society
they are so keen in cleansing ......So much for RSS "education system".
>
> And example of this proverb. Keshava Chandra Sen all his life
> advocated against child marriage. And then, he encouraged the
> same in his own family. Old habits die hard indeed.
Where is that gem obtained that he "encouraged" as opposed to the fact
that he could not intervene ????
>
> But then old habits change too. Example: Bangladesh, and
> division of Bengal based on the feelings and views of Bengali
> Muslims. Centuries of shared traditions were later shed, becauseo
> of Islamic reform movements.
>
Not a single history book , other than those taught in Shakha-prosakhas
of RSS, ever states or proves that Bengal is divided because of BEngali
muslims. IT is the contrary , Sardar Ballav Bahi PAtel whipped the Hindu
members of Congress of the then West Bengal legislation to vote for
partition. So much for the BAnias.
> About Hindu's going to dargah's: Partially because of Hindu ethos,
> and partially because of superstition.
Yeah, right. We bengalis now should learn to get rid of our culture from
the Tikkidharis (having a low culture of casteist-feudalism) , as our
culture is a superstition.
>
> >
> >>
> >> Did I debate the existence of these cross-religious practices
> >> in my earlier post. Or did I say that these practices have been
> >> there since the job of fanatic mominizers is far from complete.
> >> Just 250 yrs back from now, a lot (by that I mean a majority)
> >> of Bengali Muslims had Indian sounding names. Over the
> >> time, they were reformed to such an extent that perhaps
> >> not more than 10% of bengali Muslims have similar names
> >> as of today. This to me, is certainly not a symbol of "syncretism"
> >> in the sense you allude to mian.>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
> >
> >When till today those "arabic named Bengali muslims" creative artistes
> >do practice the best form of "Hindu art" like Abassuddin Ahmed,Iffat Ara
> >Khan, Nilufar Yasmin, and the most conscious Hindu brahmins do create
> >the best Muslim music and art like ANup Ghoshal, et all , not to speak
> >of Amar PAul or Paban and Sanatan Das etc , who can easily termed to be
> >as commie trash (did he ever know about Communism ).
>
> Things take time to change, do'nt they. BD was not built in a day.
> The process keeps on going on. And "syncretism" remains on
> dimnishing in its intenstity. Why!!
Yeah, right , the trend of folk tradition with the Hindu icons is now
going more and more and that is how syncretism is on the decline . Iffat
Ara, Nilufar yasmin, Mita Huq,Saadi Muhammed these are all
post-liberation generation of Bangladesh . The increasing popularity of
West Bengal publications in Bangladesh and the increasing scholarship of
BAngladesh about pre-muslim days is a sign of that "diminishing"
intensity .
BTW, Is Pran-lallu-the-NAcho-jan able to cite one single creative artist
or one single scholar or one single intellectual by name who does not
fight for syncretism . Does Pran-Nacho able to cite one single
intellectual of Wbengal of any worth before writing in
soc.culture.bengali. BRahminical cateism has taught these creatures how
to go on shamelessly about something without doing any homework, because
doing homework is not allowed by RSS.
>
> nachiketa
Soumitra Bose
Soumitra Bose
Where did Ballal Sen come from ??? Where did Sashanka came from ???? Were
they bengalees???? Were they friends of BEngalees or Hindus??? Did not
they fight for their "own interest" . BEngal was originally inhabited by
Santhals and then by those whom we call Kaibartas.AS a matter of fact
even Kaibartas , to some , did come from outside.
ANy one who settled down in Bengal for generations and shared their lives
and histories are bengalees. Siraj was not a bengalee by heritage , but
was that by birth and declared so . LAbelling Hussain Shah and Paragal
Khan as non-bengali would be extending the definition of Bengalee to much
.. Gangopahadhayas are not bengali at all, extending this definition all
the upadhaya brahmins are not bengali hindus at all.. What an allusion .
Marwaris in Calcutta has stayed for more than 500 years now, and they are
now more bengalees than we would like to believe .
These non-bengalee nawabs came here,setlled down , shared their lives
with the local populace and especialy with hindus (more hindus were at
important postiions than the muslims), they laid down their lives and
never left Bengal. They are our , our own shahids , if not then not
Mangal Pandey, not Subhas Bose (another KAnauji by heritage) not most of
the bengalee freedom fighters due to which India got her independence.
>
> Pradip Gangopadhyay
Soumitra Bose
Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.970926012905.27204A-100000@post>, d...@aecom.yu.edu
> says...
> >
> >> Supratik Das wrote:>
> >>
> >> > >On 24 Sep 1997, sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
> >>
> >> > > This is not surprising, given the syncretic traditions of Bengal.
> >>
> >
>
> Ondho generalisation korey gali diley to cholbey na.Keno chlobe na baba !!!! jukti r jekhane shesh kutsar sekhane suru. BJP
der kache kutsai ekmatro hatiyar , ekmatro identity , seta ki kore kere
newoa jai bolo , ora o to krishner jib , taina !!!!
Soumitra Bose
Pran Lal wrote:
>
> >I honestly do not see what all the fuss is about. Call it syncretism, or call
> >
> >it 'incomplete conversion' or call it anything else, what difference does it
> >make? The point that I believe they're trying to make by pointing out the
> >Muslims doing Durga Puja is one of tolerance, as opposed to bigotry and blind
> >devotion to dogma. This is probably somewhat akin to a recent article in the
> >internet edition of the Times of India (9/25/97 i believe) about pandals in
> >Calcutta Durga Pujas placing moortis of Mother Teresa, who was a CHRISTIAN
> >missionary, next to that of Durga Ma. There's nothing wrong with it, nor is
> >this a Marxist conspiracy of any sort. However, I do think it reflects a
> >certain flexibility that West Bengalis have, as compared to people in say,
> >Uttar Pradesh. It is perhaps this flexibility, that has allowed us to keep a
> >communist party in power for over 2 decades. The flexibility itself, in my
> >opinion, is a good thing and should be commended... the results of it
> >however,
> >may or may not be good. The ability to transcend religious barriers is a good
> >thing, although WBs Commie govt is probably not so good (but not all bad,
> >either).
> >
> >-A.M.
>
> thing to be flexible. But then, I do not think that anyone
> I condemned flexibility. Rather the point was that this halo
> around syncretism should be more carefully examined. It is one
> thing to indulge in diversity because of your conviction. It is
> altogether another thing to indulge in it because you had a sword
> of the latter is the case, then the one's who converted, given
> time will not spare efforts to complete the conversion process.
>
> what I am saying stands testified by India's historical experience.
> Not a very long time back, for instance, the Bengali Muslims
> used to participate in Durga Puja in extremely large numbers.
> That situation has changed considerably in the last two centuries
> because of the efforts of various Islamic "reform" movements.
Can you show or name any muslim bengalee in west Bengal who keeps
in-doors during Durga Puja time ???? Do you have any idea what happens in
dhaka during the Durga puja ??? Do you know the number of Muslims
particitpating even in dhaka . let us sweep aside the examples of Park
Circus durga puja or the sarbojonin durga pujas of the mufassil
towns(Please NAcho jan get the meaning of Sarbojonin first), let us sweep
aside West Bengal , which may be construed to be a Hindu "hegemonistic "
place by the Jamaats , do you have really any clue about the organisation
and the management the Dhaka city puts up with during Durga puja and
Bisorjon procession there ?????
> So, while a progressive can keep on uttering that I am being
> paranoid, since Bengal or even India has been syncretic, he
> in reality has swept a lot of stuff, (which troubles him) under
> the rug. This habit of turning a blind eye to unsavory facts,
> is also dangerous, since while I am sleeping (or have turned
> my eyes closed), the virus of seccesionism is happily breeding down under.
O that is your paranoia . BEngal fought for Indian independence , we are
no fool to seceede , we would take over . We have been able to make the
eastern India clean of communalism, we would do so for the whole of
India. Start getting paranoia about that . BEngal is no Kashmir, our
tentacles are more in numbers and we know how to clean our motherland off
of hate-campaigner scums .
> In madarsaas. And the spread of these _oh_we_
> were_all_happily_living_together theories do not reach the
> madarsaas.
>
You would be surprised to learn how different are Bengal madrassas than
the backward UP madrassas and the shakha-proshakhas there .
> nachiketa
Pran Lal
>Well what do you know, if you destroy a city you destroy mosques in
>it as well. For that matter, the primary target of Mahmud was the
>treasures that the temples had. Is there any evidence that Mahmud
>forced people to convert to Islam? I certainly have not read of any.
Yes he did. Does it matter whether you did or not. And forget
Mahmud. Talk about Mohammed. He himself was a iconoclast. A
pious Muslim would proudly tell you as to how he broke all
the idols except that of Allah. Why!!
>It sounds very much like that hundreds of temples Aurangzeb is said to
>have destroyed. Sometimes back I read that most of the stories of
>Aurangzeb's destruction actually originated in the early nineteenth century
>after Elphinstone's history book was written.
Tell this story to the Sikhs. And see what response you
get from them.
>
>Anyway going back to Mahmud, his destructions were not unique. Realize that
>until the Mughal times, western India probably had stronger links to
>Central Asia/Iran. Punjab had been an Iranian satrapy after all. Even
>Chandragupta's Mayur is supposed to have been an Iranian symbol. Mahmud was
>preceded by the Hindushahis, and Nadir Shah was probably the last example
>of a powerful Central Asian/Indian king invading Western India/Central Asia.
So what. And who said that Mahmud's destructions were unique.
The pioneer in this regard was none other than the Prophet
himself. Indeed, he needs to have peace be upon his_prophet_self.
nachiketa
Pran Lal
This is a question.
What is Jotho Dosh/Marxist Ghosh!!!
(Does it imply, that all the faults (dosh) are of Marxist Ghost babu).
And what is the Darun Khabar!!
I know what is darun, and what is 'khabar". What what is this
tragic news about.
Soumitra babu: You can respond too. You may add something
more than VHP toilets, Bandar Sena, venereal diseases,
rapists, and the bhadra_culture yours that so frequently
jaane_anjaane oozes out of your kalam :-(((
nachiketa
Soumitra Bose
Both the words are used extensively even in Bihar . Anyway , it has been
umpteen times I have indicated that not knowing simple things about a
culture and still wanting to comment on it is unethical and unfair , but
it seems that your idea about human decency is different from a general
bengalee perspective.
Darun Khobor was a title to the news that a family of muslims in
BArdhaman (many of them are Hajis) are hosting Durga Pujas for seven
generation . At least if you do not understand basic elements of language
, please follow the debate , that is a minimum commitment .
Please try to learn something from our friend Raghu Seshadri. In
practically every matter and issue his views are diametrically opposite
to ours , he was not a born bengali, his mother tongue is not bengali, he
was not brought up for long in Bangla, yet he does his homework , he
follows the debate and he gives his thoughtful ideas , he studies bengal
and he works towards understanding it . It is same with Uday Reddy . That
is the reason we cherish their presence and get anxious when for a long
time we do not hear from them. THis is very minimum decency and
expectation from a human being that he talks about something he knows.
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Supratik Das (d...@aecom.yu.edu) wrote:
: To begin with Soumyo has stated a rather well known fact that there are
: communities in India which are neither Hindu nor Muslim or rather both
: Hindu and Muslims e.g. the Meos of Rajasthan who follow Hindu customs,
: take Hindu names sing in praise of Hindu Gods and yet follow Islam. I am
: glad that Soumyo and other Bengalies have suddenly discovered this fact.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The basis of this conclusion is not clear.
: However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
: 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that. The people seem to follow a
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since when did the word "syncretic" become the exclusive property of
"Marxist paridgm"?
: syncretic religo-social life because of incomplete conversion of Hindu
: communities to Islam mostly conducted in the aftermath of a war. A case in
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Therefore, we should have seen a completely Muslim India. Yet we see that
Hindus form about 80% of India.
: example are the Chauhan Rajputs of Rajasthan. A section of these Rajputs
: were converted to Islam after Prithviraj Chauhan lost to Mohammed Ghori.
: For the next 800 yrs they haven't reconverted back to Hinduism because of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: orthodox Hindus objecting to it and orthodox Mullahs preventing it neither
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: did they fully integrate into Muslim society. So they retained their
: earlier Hindu culture and adopted the imposed Islamic one as best as they
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Few questions
1. Why did the orthodox Hindus not object to the retention of Hindu
culture and yet objected to their reconversion?
2. Why did not the orthodox Mullahs prevent the adoption of Hindu
culture, especially when they could prevent the reconversion?
Das Moshai, aapni Yale e ki poren janbar ichha roilo. Aapnar ebong aro du
ek jon yale'eer lekha porar pore aamar kemon sondheo hochhe je Yale ta
gollay gechhe.
: could. Recently some of them reconverted to Hinduism when the VHP
: persuaded the Hindu orthodoxy to accept them into the Rajput clan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aabar VHP ke jiggasha korle ora bolen je ora naki jat-pat e bishwas koren na!
: Similarly the VHP also persuaded a community in Gujrat to integrate into
: Hindu society. This community used Hindu names, worshipped
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Goddess Amba
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: and yet followed Islam. If any of the Marxist idiots have read Quran will
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mane VHP oder ki bolechhe-Amba er Puja koro na naki Namaj ta poro na?
Bhalo kotha, aapni ki kokhono Greek Moussaka kheyechen-oi je jar bhetore
ground beef deoa thake? Aamar mone hoy onek rai Musalman hoyechillo ei
goru khabar joynno:))
: find out thats impossible as per religious belief. So almost all such
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sheta Das Moshai oi Musalman der i bhabte din-ora Quran ke ki rokom bhabe
dekhbe! Shob Musalman to aar Taliban er kaydayai Quran er byakhha kore
na. Bhalo kotha aapni ki Quran er Sura Al-Kafirun ta porechhen.
: 'syncretic' cultures are borne out of converted Hindus adjusting to their
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: new socio-political environment rather than examples of Hindu beliefs and
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Etai to Syncretic tai na? Duto dhormer songmisron.
: Islam coexisting side by side as a result of natural affinities as
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dhormo ta to aar Chemistry noy je "natural affinity" thakbe. Aapni ki
bhabcheen je Sodium aar Jol je rokom ek sathe ele hu hu kore jole jay,
temni Hindu Musalman kacha kachi thaklei shudhu mara mari korbe?
: Marxists want us to believe.
: While it is true that historical events have made many sections of Indian
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: society 'syncretic', what is wrong is to misinterpret them as is being
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: done by Marxist idiots.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aapnar ei paragraph ti pore shob kemon guliye gelo. Ta hole bolchhen je
Indian society hochhe aashole 'syncretic' kintu "Marxist idiot" ra ei
kothati bolle Mahabharat osuddho hoye jabe!
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
http://finance.commerce.ubc.ca/~bhatta
"The lifestyle of the Indian elite is amazing...I've never seen
such opulence even in America"---Noam Chomsky in New Delhi in 1996
Pran Lal
>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>
>>I am not sure as to what you mean by "diversity" by "force".
>
>Well, these were your words - "It (diversity) is altogether another thing to
>indulge in ... because you had a sword over your head".
>
>THAT is what I meant... I was merely trying to restate your argument.
OK. In that case I got you.
>>This syncretic nature in India
>>was a consequence of PARTIAL conversion of people.
>
>Yes, I heard you loud and clear the last time. That is why I brought up the
>case of Allahabadi Muslims who take part in Durga Puja festivities. There is
>no
>doubt that these Muslims are "complete" Muslims, however, regardless, they
>take
>part in Durga Puja festivities. I also pointed out the statues of Mother
>Teresa
>in many Durga Puja pandals in Calcutta - is that also incomplete conversion?
>And what about all the Hindu and Muslim Bengalis who attended Mother Teresas
>CATHOLIC funeral; was that another case of incomplete conversion?
>
>While I do not, for an instant, DOUBT your contention that some of the
>Muslims
>who perform Durga Puja may be due to "incomplete conversion" (whatever that
>means), all I am saying is, many, maybe even MOST of these cases are indeed
>examples of syncretism and not "incomplete conversion".
I do not know Abhijit what your point is in this regard.
As I said earlier, the forces which tend to assimilate one
in a society and those which tend to promote dis_jointedness
run parallel all the time. All I am saying is that people have
projected the idea that somehow "syncretic" cultures have
been fossilised in time and space. They have also projected
the idea such "syncretism" was out of their own volition.
Both these arguments, in my opinion are absurd. For firstly,
a lot of Muslims, in general, (like in Bengal) have
moved from a more syncretic situtation to a more separate
state of mind. That is partially a consequence of the efforts
of "Islamic reforms" and partially a consequence of the
ideological incompatibility between Hinduism and Islam.
Secondly, whatever remnant syncretism we see today
is a consequence of partial conversion. Your stmt. that
people still participate in Durga Puja, might be very well
true indeed. But then that indicates that a lot of Muslims
are still being pulled in by the assimilatory nature of
India. But then these processes have to be reinforced.
We cannot just wait and sit under the notion of "Oh we
are syncretic, and hence do not have to care." And
that is what precisely the modern Indian state, and
the commies seem to do.
>
>>Consequently, a lot of present Goan Christians still practice a lot of
>"Hindu"
>>customs to this date. But I will not celeberate this sort of
>>"syncretism".
>
>I see your point and I agree with you. If past generations of Hindus were
>tortured at the hands of foriegners, then that is nothing to be proud of.
>However, I believe (yes, this is only a belief, so you are more than welcome
>to
>correct me) that what was the case in one part of the nation need not be the
>case in another part of the nation. I also believe that a major reason the
>Portugese were not able to eradicate 'hindu' customs, is the strength of
>Hindu
>culture, which is indeed, something to be celebrated.
>One more thing - about the Muslim family in Bordhomaan, are you trying to
>imply
>that they celebrate Durga Puja unknowingly, that they are not cognisant of
>the
>fact that Durga Puja is not Islamic?
I do not know about Bardhmaan family. So no comments
there. But people still do all kinds of stuff in general due
to a combination of the following factors:
1. Economics. (ex. The Muslims of Merrut making brassware
depicting Hindu Gods/Goddesses).
2. Lack of knowledge. (ex. The Muslims in lots of African nations
indulge in genital mutilation of females, even though that has
nothing to do with Islam).
3. Partial Conversion and Strong Bonds with Past: The Dhrupad
masters, Dagars, doing quite Hindu specific Pujaas on a daily
basis.
4. Do not care attitudes:
But then, we have seen that people and their attitudes also change. For
instance, the partial conversion can be subsequently
accelarated (by Ulemaas, who have shown a remarkable
zeal to tell about TRUE Islam), and a Durga Pujak Muslim's
kids can be later converted to Durga Bhanjak kids. If you
needs specific examples, I would recommend a book by
Rafiuddin Ahmed, a BDeshi Muslim, a scholar. The name,
I think is Bengal Partition. He deals with this whole issue of
the considerable transformations, that the average Bengali
Muslim and his culture went thru, as a consequence of the
Islamic "reform" movements in 18th and 19th century. You
will rarely hear that kind of story from the champions of
fossilised syncretism, on this fora.
>>There is nothing to celeberate about it. All I can
>>say is that I was tortured in past, and my tormentors were only
>>partial succesfull.
>
>There IS something to celebrate in that. Examine the spread of Islam, both to
>the east and the west (from its starting point in Saudi Arabia); how many
>cultures have survived in its path? I believe the answer to that question,
>once
>you realise it, will be in itself reason to celebrate.
>
>>I have not been to Durga Puja in WB.
>
You are missing out... I mean it. I may be.
Tell you what.
My wife's parent moved to WB. So next time I go to Bharat,
I will try to go around Dashehraa, and visit them. That will
be ek-panth-do-kaaj.
>
>>in parts of Rajasthan there are Chouhan Muslims, who worship Durga very
>>religiously.
>
>"Very religiously" ??????
Yes.
>
>What exactly does that mean, anyways? Are you referring to enthusiasm ? - in
>which case it is very possible they engage in such celebration with great joy
>and abandon, simply because they ENJOY it (therefore the enthusiasm), but
>does
>that necessarily imply that they have 'forgotten' that Durga is not their
>God?
No. They still worship Durga. That is a remnant from the past,
since all the Rajputs in Rajasthan, have had this tradition of
worshipping Durga to get Shakti.
>Is this 'incomplete conversion' confusing them ???? Somehow, I doubt it.
>[a few more examples snipped out...]
>
>>And I can bet you that a lot of these people do all
>>that in 100% earnestness.
>
>100% earnestness meaning what? That they BELIEVE that Durga or Kali or
>Parvati
>or Saraswati or Hanuman is really God, and not A11ah? Like I said before, I
>don't think there is a single community of Muslims alive that would say or
>believe that.
Well, there might be some communities still lurking out
there. And yes, the examples I mentioned, do believe
in the Divinity of Saraswati. But they also believe in the
divinity of Allah. And that is the reason, that give time,
and efforts, the ideological contradictions, will have to
be resolved.
>>But then, people who belong to such
>>"syncretic" groups have always been targetted for "purification
>>and reform" on a consistent basic by Islamic purists.
>
>True. But it's not only them - Hindus are also subjected to 'purification'
>attempts. In our case, these attempts come from GOVERNMENT itself. Why else
>was
>I told in my I.C.S.E and I.C.S. (10th and 12th) exams that I would lose
>points
>in my essay in my Hindi exam if I used any words that were `Urdu'? Nevermind
>the fact that many of these words are in common use all over Hindi speaking
>India, that does not matter; it is governments DUTY to de-urdu-ize the spoken
>Hindi, right? Also, in my 5th or 6th standard history textbook, there was a
>chapter called the "Ramayana". The sheer ludicrity of introducing a myth as
>HISTORY is simply unimaginable.
I was not taught Ramayan as history. But then it does
make a lot of sense to teach Ramayan in social study
texts. And if teaching history is indeed the case, then
almost all Hindu baiters have tried to teach the real
historical facts of Ramayana. But yes, I agree with you
that Ramayana should not be taught thru history texts,
(but thru social study texts).
>>The forces of conversion and assimilation have always been
>>operational.
>
>Absolutely. And if the current Indian cultural landscape is any indication,
>then Indian Muslims are in no way, losing their 'Indianness'.
Left to themselves, perhaps not. However, for each Rahman,
who composes music for Vande Mataram (for whatever reason)
we have 10 commies, almost all Hindus (oh, I forgot atheists)
who shout from their ivory towers that VM is "communal".
>>And almost instantly, he was instantly chided by some
>>of his other Muslim brethern for practicising buta_parastee.
>
>Yet, so many Indian Muslims, both in India and here in the US, participate in
>'Hindu' festivals, albeit not in a religious sense, but because they simply
>wanna enjoy themselves.
>
>>1. In other places, we still do not see the existence of political
>> states like J&K, which have a majority of Muslims.
>
>But there are areas with large concentrations of Muslim populations in India.
>Do any of them have a significant anti-national problem? Example, do any of
>Muslims in these areas engage in regular (or irregular) infringements of the
>law with the intent of making a statement against government?
>
>>2. 5-10 yrs are still too less of a time for the generation of a
>>rationale, genuine or otherwise, for such a demand.
>
>Fine.
>
>Well, are there any rumblings, so to speak... any indications of an emergence
>of an organised Muslim resistance to the BJP/RSS ? And to get to your point,
>if such 'rumblings' exist, are they coming out of 'madraasas' ?
The Islamic resistence has always been organized. The Imam
at Dilli sits and decides who votes when, to whom. What makes
all the politicians scarmble to get an audience with Imam,
and make him issue a fatwaa.
Anyway Abhijit, the last issue, I think, is off the main topic. So,
in future, we can discuss it on another thread.
nachiketa
Pradip Gangopadhyay
Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Jotho Dosh/Marxist Ghosh (Re: 14% Hindu & Muslim)
>Where did Ballal Sen come from ??? Where did Sashanka came from ???? Were
>they bengalees???? Were they friends of BEngalees or Hindus??? Did not
>they fight for their "own interest" . BEngal was originally inhabited by
>Santhals and then by those whom we call Kaibartas.AS a matter of fact
>even Kaibartas , to some , did come from outside.
>ANy one who settled down in Bengal for generations and shared their lives
>and histories are bengalees. Siraj was not a bengalee by heritage , but
>was that by birth and declared so . LAbelling Hussain Shah and Paragal
>Khan as non-bengali would be extending the definition of Bengalee to much
>.. Gangopahadhayas are not bengali at all, extending this definition all
>the upadhaya brahmins are not bengali hindus at all.. What an allusion .
>Marwaris in Calcutta has stayed for more than 500 years now, and they are
>now more bengalees than we would like to believe .
>These non-bengalee nawabs came here,setlled down , shared their lives
>with the local populace and especialy with hindus (more hindus were at
>important postiions than the muslims), they laid down their lives and
>never left Bengal. They are our , our own shahids , if not then not
>Mangal Pandey, not Subhas Bose (another KAnauji by heritage) not most of
>the bengalee freedom fighters due to which India got her independence.
Did I say that Ballal Sen or Sashanka were Bengalis? Did I say that their name
is in my list of people I admire? You seem to be very good in bringing in
irrelevent things.
Why don't you give a list of the good things that the "Bengali" Nawabs did
for the Bengali Hindus? The medieval history of India is filled with one
set of loathsome tyrants fighting another set of tyrants. The Nawabs were
specially infamous for entombing alive young girls who refused them. Why on
earth should anyone call these loathsome tyrants shaheeds who did not do one
good thing for Bengali Hindus?
I think it takes a special set of mind to compare these "Benagli" Nawabs with
Subhas Bose or Mangal Pandey who neither tortured, nor entombed alive young
girls. Did the Nawabs lay down their lives for the Bengali Hindus or did they
die defending their interests? Subhas Bose, Mangal Pandey laid down their
lives for their ideals. Why don't you give a list of the ideals for which the
Nawabs laid down their lives?
You are very adept in making personal attacks. Yes, it is probable that my
ancestors came to Bengal 1000 years ago. However, they did not distinguish
themselves as the Nawabs did by entombing alive young girls.
I will wait for the list of good things that the Nawabs did for Bengali Hindus.
Akhtar Siddique
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>We cannot just wait and sit under the notion of "Oh we
>are syncretic, and hence do not have to care." And
>Rafiuddin Ahmed, a BDeshi Muslim, a scholar. The name,
>I think is Bengal Partition. He deals with this whole issue of
>the considerable transformations, that the average Bengali
>Muslim and his culture went thru, as a consequence of the
>Islamic "reform" movements in 18th and 19th century. You
>will rarely hear that kind of story from the champions of
>fossilised syncretism, on this fora.
and also
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
> than a 100 yrs for the Muslims in Bengal, to develop a sense
> of Bengali Muslim identity and the basis of a separate E. Bengal,
> which later became BD
>nachiketa
This is exactly the sort of langoti garbage that you seem to have
been infected with. The demands of a partition in Bengal in 1947, came
almost exclusively from Hindu groups. Even then, the primary drivers
were not Bengali Hindus but the central leaders of the Congress. They
certainly opposed any sort of all-Bengal referendum strenuously (so did the Muslim
League as well), most likely because most Bengalis in a referendum, if they
were given the option, would have chosen to say goodbye to both India
and Pakistan.
Now if you talk about the foundation of Muslim League in 1906,
clearly that was post 1905-partition and very few if any of the leaders
of it were Muslim Bengalis. Before you start forming opinions about
evolution of identities, ask yourself why would the Hindu Mahasabha go
about distributing leaflets in Hindi in places like Comilla or Noakhali
if the motives were not the langotization of history.
Or you could go even further back and ask yourself what has happened to languages
like Avadhi or Brij that your ancestors probably spoke
and what is happening to Maithili now. You get a single bizarrely
constructed language and the reliance on a mythical glorious past
that never existed in the first place. And then you recast all present realities
to fit this past.
And the garbage about Rafiuddin Ahmed's history book, that sounds
very much like the kind of crap that the Bhangsevaks come up with.
There is no Bangladeshi historian with that name as far as I know.
If you have the book, give me the ISBN or the publisher's name.
Finally, about the forced conversion by Mahmud give me some refernce
other than crap written by a Vajapayee or some other langotani
pederast. Ghazni under Mahmud is supposed to have had resident Hindu artisans
whose descendants are the present Afghan Hindus in the same region.
So the crap about conversions is just that, to paraphrase Soumitra,
out of the same toilet. Now destructive, Mahmud definitely was.
--Akhtar Siddique
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Akhtar Siddique (sidd...@acpub.duke.edu) wrote:
: This is exactly the sort of langoti garbage that you seem to have
: been infected with. The demands of a partition in Bengal in 1947, came
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: almost exclusively from Hindu groups. Even then, the primary drivers
: were not Bengali Hindus but the central leaders of the Congress. They
: certainly opposed any sort of all-Bengal referendum strenuously (so did the Muslim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are very right. Sarat Bose, Abul Hashem and others tried to save
Bengal from partitioning. I had argued with Nachiketa et al in the past
on the culpability of Congress in the matter of partition. My arguments
can be read at my home page.
: And the garbage about Rafiuddin Ahmed's history book, that sounds
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: very much like the kind of crap that the Bhangsevaks come up with.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: There is no Bangladeshi historian with that name as far as I know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am afraid you are wrong here. Rafiuddin Ahmed did write a well
researched book titled Bengal Muslims. In it he traced the developement
of a separate political/social identity in Muslims of Bengal from the
period 1865 to 1905. What is happening here is selective quotation by
Nachiketa. For example in the last paragraph of the book Rafiuddin
clearly opines that the mobilisation of muslim masses under the
leadership of Muslim aristocracy happened because of a temporary
alignment of interest against Hindu monopoly on Govt jobs and power. This
alliance broke up after partition when the Hindu threat was no more.
Nachiketa will not cite the last paragraph because it thoroughly
demolishes his theory of a monolithic muslim hooliganism facing a equally
monolithic Hindu body.
Supratik Das
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Soumitra Bose wrote:
> Once again, fallen in the trap!!! Supratik with his mother tongue(the
> language with which one first calls the mother)- scatology. I am more
> than sure what his mother did to this kid with this attitude .
>
> Sishu boyeshe ma era cheleder mukhe ar kane (onek shomoie ) modhu, tulsi
> patar rosh ityadi diye thaken . Supratiker Ma , hoi bhule giyechilen ar
> na hoi , sishur jonmologner bajhik alamot dekhe jarpornai hotodyom
> hoiechilen.
Guys on scb please note that Soumitra has done the ultimate on scb i.e.
'Ma' tule galagali. Judging from the fact that Udayan, etc didn't condemn
this personal insult (probably he likes it) I am not to be blamed anymore
for using foul language or verbal abuse on scb. Henceforth this is an open
forum.
Supratik
Soumitra Bose
Never thought you fail to realize the rehtoric. I said and meant that
the Nawabs are equally as a bengali or equally as not as the so-called
Hindu kings of BEngal, same degree not more not less. I then defined the
bengaleeness as one who settles down and shares the history and does not
go back anywhere, one who has generations down here and even sacrifices
for the country . That is how Siraj is a completely bengalee when he
declared himself as one .
>
> Why don't you give a list of the good things that the "Bengali" Nawabs did
> for the Bengali Hindus? The medieval history of India is filled with one
> set of loathsome tyrants fighting another set of tyrants. The Nawabs were
> specially infamous for entombing alive young girls who refused them. Why on
> earth should anyone call these loathsome tyrants shaheeds who did not do one
> good thing for Bengali Hindus?
May be in your history books ...Why do not you read Chaitanya
Charitamrito and the introduction of Chandravatis Ramayan and
Vidyasundar's wirting to find out what the Muslim nawabs did to Hindus
and the Vaishnav movement . IS that enough proof?????
>
> I think it takes a special set of mind to compare these "Benagli" Nawabs with
> Subhas Bose or Mangal Pandey who neither tortured, nor entombed alive young
> girls. Did the Nawabs lay down their lives for the Bengali Hindus or did they
> die defending their interests? Subhas Bose, Mangal Pandey laid down their
> lives for their ideals. Why don't you give a list of the ideals for which the
> Nawabs laid down their lives?
Did not Siraj do so ???? Did not Isha Khan do so ????? Any idea about
history ?????
>
> You are very adept in making personal attacks. Yes, it is probable that my
> ancestors came to Bengal 1000 years ago. However, they did not distinguish
> themselves as the Nawabs did by entombing alive young girls.
Are you sure???? Your ancestors ( and mine too) were among the greatest
rapists of aboriginal and Santhal inhabitants of bengal) they actually
have roasted alive any aborioginal pregnant mothers in their places of
jagirs.Why do you think the aboriginals of BEngal who were mostly
budhists of some sort joined the islamic ranks en masse(that is why
muslims are still called "nere"s- do you know the history?) , why do you
think they never tried to rescue LAkshman Sen at all from Gaud or even
in Bikrampur ???????? Have you read the history of Bikrampur ?????
>
> I will wait for the list of good things that the Nawabs did for Bengali Hindus.
Please read Chaitanya Charitamrita at least for once . I know it is
difficult to expect you to read Bharatchandra or the whole collection of
MAnmgalkavya .
Pran Lal
>Once again, fallen in the trap!!! Supratik with his mother tongue(the
>language with which one first calls the mother)- scatology. I am more
>than sure what his mother did to this kid with this attitude .
What's next SB. Gali_galauj betaa. Looks like that you are
turning to your good old days.
nachiketa
Abhijit Mitra
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>What is Jotho Dosh/Marxist Ghosh!!!
It's a sarcastic comment... that everything thats wrong (sab dosh) is
because of marxist ghosh...
it rhymes with another common bangla expression .. but i dont remember what it
is.. :(
>(Does it imply, that all the faults (dosh) are of Marxist Ghost babu).
Its a sarcastic derision of those who would put the blame for everything on
marxist bangalis... it implies nothing.
>And what is the Darun Khabar!!
Darun matlab great ... khobor is khabar...
darun khobor matlab barhiya khabar... achi khabar... gazab ka khabar!
-A.M.
ps. Pran ji, Soumitra ki baatein, chaahe we jitni kathor kyo na ho, unme ek
sacchai zaroor hain... aapka bangla bhasha ka gyan nimn matra hain, aur aapke
paas bangali sabhyata ka bhi gyan nahin hain ... at ev, SCBengali mein charcha
karne ki kaabiliyat aapme nahin hain... kaaran ye hain, ki vartalap banaaye
rakhne ke liye, ye aavashyak ho jaata hain ki aap humein sumjhe, humein
jaane ... uske pashchaat hi aap humaare saath kisi bhi prakaar ka fruitful
discussion kar paayenge|
I will reply to your repost to my post later... abhi vaqt kam hain! :-(
Supratik Das
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Soumitra Bose wrote:
> I thought Supratik did know the meaning of some english words like "lie"
I know. Ask your elders if they know coz they didn't teach you.
> . It appears not,. Meos have been targetted by VHP for re-conversion.
Not exactly. Meo community members have approached VHP for reconversion.
> NOT ONE DID. NOT ONE OF THE MEO MUSLIMS RECONVERTED. There were no
The Asian Age run by MJ Akbar reports that about 50,000 reconverted and
more will in the near future. All of the them out of their own free will.
> imposition from the Mullahs, as the number of mosques in that region is
> very minimal and that area never saw big mullahs, the same people who
> sing the Mahabharat Kahanis are the imams, in fact (a recent India Today
> report - in which the photograph of the imam singing Ramkatha was
That is exactly the reason why they are reconverting. No sane Mullah will
recite Ramkatha without reason. The Meos were court musicians in the
Rajput era but were converted subsequent to Rajput losses at the hands of
the Mughals when they became court musicians to Mughals. They used to sing
stories from Hindu mythology which is quite common in rural North India
and continued to do so even after conversion becoz that was their
profession.
> published). Any community, not a stray human being who was forcibly
> converted would get rid of that in the very first opportunity in the
> very first generation after the conversion. Meos are there for a long
Easy to say. If that were true your family wouldn't have remained in India
after fleeing Bd. They would have returned at the first oppurtunity
instead of producing a nincompoof like you on Indian soil. Remember for
every Khalistani there is a KPS Gill. So for each Soumitra there is a
Supratik. Fight on......
> long time and nothing happened . Indonesians still keep so-called
> "Hindu" names and "Hindu" epics, but they are least interested tod get
> reconverted, they are devout muslims and no less muslims than the Saudis
Why they told you so? Indonesia on the other hand is more a syncretic
culture becoz they were never really dominated by foreign rulers but
instead took Islam from the influences of neighbouring Malaysia and
from Arab settlers who married local women.
> or Pakistanis. VHPs have tried to reconvert for a long time and always
> had been a failure in the most disastrous sense of the word. People are
Well actually the Arya Samaj tried first and managed to convert a few.
Dayanand Saraswati paid the price for it. He was poisoned to death.
> not toys , nor they are pigs in the hands of casteist VHPs, they have
> strong reasons in whatever they are doing. The family of Bardhaman think
> they are non-converts and they detested any suggestion of converting
> into Hinduism. The present patriarch of the family is himself a HAji and
> is the chief patron of the local Musjid. World does not go in the VHP
> binary way. VHP is licking the sputum of the colonial binary
> distinctionary attitude. Indian never knew that, India always welcomed
Well everone is licking something e.g. you are licking Maos soiled
underwear.
> outsiders, they came, they ruled, they mingled , they settled, they
> sacrificed, they laid down their lives and they defended India, except
> the British , they wanted to justify their scooting, they inculcated the
True. Most Muslims were converted to Islam by a few zealots like Sikander
of Kashmir.
> binary distinction,their trusted fifth columnist army- the VHP. Supratik
> here reverberates the sounds of the binary gutters(I am not sure if he
> understands the meaning of the word binary distinction in social and
I am not sure why you are barking like a dog unless it runs in your
family. I only pointed out that I do not agree with the theory of
syncretism as propounded by the Marxist theoreticians of schools like
JNU.
> cultural studies). Syncretism is a very novel phenomenon professed in
> India by Sufi cult of Islam and the non-conformist anti-casteist
> bhakti-shakti cults among the present Hindus.
I do not agree with it either. To me Bhakti cult was a reaction to the
growing menace of Sufi movements in India and also to the denigrating
practice of casteism in India. The Sufi movement itslef was
aproduct of Islam coming in contact with pre-Islamic Persian
practices. Here again the neo-convert was experimenting his old
beliefs with his new faith. Syncretism had nothing to do with
the reconciliation of Islam with Hinduism except for a brief period but
was a result of converted Hindus and non-converted ones trying to adjust
to each others socio-religious moorings and to the new religious doctrine
of Islam.
> THis part is true from Supratik-speak. Any thing which does not conform
> to the BAjrang or Bandar dal is mis-interpretation, that is true there.
I am sure that Marxist interpretation is not the only one or the ultimate
one for anything. I am sure there can be many interpretations to it. Most
Bengalies on scb are crying foul becoz my interpretation doesn't tally
with what they would like to hear.
> > Supratik
Soumitra Bose
> >are syncretic, and hence do not have to care." And
>
> >I think is Bengal Partition. He deals with this whole issue of
> >the considerable transformations, that the average Bengali
> >Muslim and his culture went thru, as a consequence of the
> >Islamic "reform" movements in 18th and 19th century. You
> >will rarely hear that kind of story from the champions of
> >fossilised syncretism, on this fora.
>
> pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
> > than a 100 yrs for the Muslims in Bengal, to develop a sense
> > of Bengali Muslim identity and the basis of a separate E. Bengal,
> > which later became BD
> >nachiketa
>
> been infected with. The demands of a partition in Bengal in 1947, came
> were not Bengali Hindus but the central leaders of the Congress. They
> certainly opposed any sort of all-Bengal referendum strenuously (so did the Muslim
> were given the option, would have chosen to say goodbye to both India
> and Pakistan.
>
> Now if you talk about the foundation of Muslim League in 1906,
> clearly that was post 1905-partition and very few if any of the leaders
> of it were Muslim Bengalis. Before you start forming opinions about
> evolution of identities, ask yourself why would the Hindu Mahasabha go
> about distributing leaflets in Hindi in places like Comilla or Noakhali
> if the motives were not the langotization of history.
>
> Or you could go even further back and ask yourself what has happened to languages
> like Avadhi or Brij that your ancestors probably spoke
> and what is happening to Maithili now. You get a single bizarrely
> constructed language and the reliance on a mythical glorious past
> that never existed in the first place. And then you recast all present realities
> to fit this past.
>
> very much like the kind of crap that the Bhangsevaks come up with.
> Finally, about the forced conversion by Mahmud give me some refernce
> other than crap written by a Vajapayee or some other langotani
> pederast. Ghazni under Mahmud is supposed to have had resident Hindu artisans
> whose descendants are the present Afghan Hindus in the same region.
> So the crap about conversions is just that, to paraphrase Soumitra,
> out of the same toilet. Now destructive, Mahmud definitely was.
>
> --Akhtar Siddique
Akhtar , please understand Nacho-lal does not have any clue about Bengal
or bangladesh , or when and how it got liberated from Pakistan . HE
talks about Rafiuddin Ahmed the famous historian who was in the Pakistan
time and wrote the important books on the rise of Bengali muslim
identity . His langotization does not teach him that a bangladeshi
historian would be termed as one who was living and creating after
Bangladesh . Some day he could come out saying JAgadish Bose or our
famous Abul Hakim (the sixteenth cnetury writer- je jon bonge jonmi
irshe bongobani,,,,) as a bangladeshi intellectual......
Soumitra Bose
And probably that is why in Bengal we see Muslims hosting, organizing,
participating in Hindu festivities and vice-versa more and more and on
the other hand people are becoming more interested in North India and
BJP ruled states to pull down the pants of participants before letting
them participate. That exactly is why we see in Bengal a rise and surge
of syncretic tradition in renewed compositions of folk-lore in
literature in performing arts and in other creative arts , whereas we
see artistes of a particular religion being heckled and mauled by the
lunatic goondas.That is why we see the whole of state population pouring
down their emotions for Mother whereas nitpickers from the North Indian
gutters (like Vinay KAtiyar - Gees man, they could not get a decent
surname for this guy- (lighter way)) are criticising her getting a state
funeral. So here we get an alternative option to syncretism (still we do
not know how come this becomes a marxist prerogative(Poor MArx , you
wanted to weed out religious faith, and here bandarbabajis are trying to
put you on syncretic cauldron)), the one which talks about speedy
removal of a particular culture and religion,just because it is
different from a select minority called Hindutvavad or Maududivad(same
essence with two colours).Here we are being prescribed a model, where
people would loose their choice of festivities but would be forced down
the do's and don'ts by a select few to serve the trading interest of the
select minority. The People of Bengal and the general populace of India
has clearly shown through their syncretic acts which path to take and
which path to dump into the gutters where it came from .
>
> >
> >>Consequently, a lot of present Goan Christians still practice a lot of
> >"Hindu"
> >>customs to this date. But I will not celeberate this sort of
> >>"syncretism".
> >
> >I see your point and I agree with you. If past generations of Hindus were
> >tortured at the hands of foriegners, then that is nothing to be proud of.
> >However, I believe (yes, this is only a belief, so you are more than welcome
> >to
> >correct me) that what was the case in one part of the nation need not be the
> >case in another part of the nation. I also believe that a major reason the
> >Portugese were not able to eradicate 'hindu' customs, is the strength of
> >Hindu
> >culture, which is indeed, something to be celebrated.
>
> >One more thing - about the Muslim family in Bordhomaan, are you trying to
> >imply
> >that they celebrate Durga Puja unknowingly, that they are not cognisant of
> >the
> >fact that Durga Puja is not Islamic?
>
> I do not know about Bardhmaan family. So no comments
> there. But people still do all kinds of stuff in general due
> to a combination of the following factors:
>
> 1. Economics. (ex. The Muslims of Merrut making brassware
> depicting Hindu Gods/Goddesses).
So the BARDHAMAN family could be doing this to have more economic
leverage ??????? Well, Durga puja is a well seven day gala affair and
that means only a big spending. Just because they do the durga puja they
are not going to be awarded Hindu market additionally. They are there in
that village and are normally and optimally connected to all the
neighbours , may be most of them are Hindus.
> 2. Lack of knowledge. (ex. The Muslims in lots of African nations
> indulge in genital mutilation of females, even though that has
> nothing to do with Islam).
So the HAjjis of that family doing a Puja for seven generations do not
know it ??????Great, does your fertile brain think that the Mullahs
would be letting this phenomenon go just like that ????Do you have any
freaking idea how well connected the District of Bardhaman is , which as
a matter of fact is a 100% literate district, with muslims competing
with hindus in number .
> 3. Partial Conversion and Strong Bonds with Past: The Dhrupad
> masters, Dagars, doing quite Hindu specific Pujaas on a daily
> basis.
YEs, for seven generations , Huh!!!! Do you think the classical artistes
do it as a habit , not conscientiously ??????? Did you discuss with any
Ustads in that line ??????? Have you talked to Aminuddin Dagar or with
anyone to verify that they do it just as a habit ?????
So here BJP is coming out with a Tikkidhari logic of being the
all-know-it-Mister and others being all un-conscious .....
> 4. Do not care attitudes:
>
So they do care only about spending money when that might mean a
possible ostracisation from the Mullahs. HAve you ever thought about the
popular support from the local muslims these families get , so that the
mullahs can never come near to them ..... do you realize that every
Muslim neighbourhood do have at least one mosque which is connected to
the muslim network of musjids , and even then the power of syuncretic
muslims and hindus are so strong that in stead of protests and
oppositions the local musjids carry on their daily routine . Do you have
any idea that in most likelihood a family which can spend so much to
carry on a Durga Puja could be so wealthy that they do control the
funding and sponsorship of the local musjids , and still they carry on
the Durga puja and most probably they host the Sarbonjonin Eid Utsab(
typical of West Bengal to hold it as a community event for all)?
> But then, we have seen that people and their attitudes also change. For
> instance, the partial conversion can be subsequently
> accelarated (by Ulemaas, who have shown a remarkable
> zeal to tell about TRUE Islam), and a Durga Pujak Muslim's
> kids can be later converted to Durga Bhanjak kids.
YEAH RIGHT !!!!!! Seven generations of the Durga Pujak muslims could
not be made Durga Bhanjak muslims and now because there is the ugly head
of BJP bandars sprouting around they would immediately turn that way
....great imagination though. No wonder these imaginations can not come
without having a Tikki or a Poonch somwhere.
If you
> needs specific examples, I would recommend a book by
> Rafiuddin Ahmed, a BDeshi Muslim, a scholar. The name,
> I think is Bengal Partition. He deals with this whole issue of
> the considerable transformations, that the average Bengali
> Muslim and his culture went thru, as a consequence of the
> Islamic "reform" movements in 18th and 19th century. You
> will rarely hear that kind of story from the champions of
> fossilised syncretism, on this fora.
>
This has been challenged umpteen times , now the person behind Pran-LAl
name and NAchiketa is coming out with a defense that he is not sure
about the name. Yet, he wants to posit that book, but could not cite a
single thing in favour of his "arguments".
> >>There is nothing to celeberate about it. All I can
> >>say is that I was tortured in past, and my tormentors were only
> >>partial succesfull.
> >
> >There IS something to celebrate in that. Examine the spread of Islam, both to
> >the east and the west (from its starting point in Saudi Arabia); how many
> >cultures have survived in its path? I believe the answer to that question,
> >once
> >you realise it, will be in itself reason to celebrate.
> >
> >>I have not been to Durga Puja in WB.
> >
> You are missing out... I mean it. I may be.
>
> Tell you what.
> My wife's parent moved to WB. So next time I go to Bharat,
> I will try to go around Dashehraa, and visit them. That will
> be ek-panth-do-kaaj.
Dussera is not celebrated in West Bengal. Some Marwaris do it in Brigade
Parade Ground. Bengalees do not. Puja and Visarjan is all over before
Dussera and that Ram-cum-monkey dancing by a handfull of North Indians.
>
> >
> >>in parts of Rajasthan there are Chouhan Muslims, who worship Durga very
> >>religiously.
> >
> >"Very religiously" ??????
>
> Yes.
>
> >
> >What exactly does that mean, anyways? Are you referring to enthusiasm ? - in
> >which case it is very possible they engage in such celebration with great joy
> >and abandon, simply because they ENJOY it (therefore the enthusiasm), but
> >does
> >that necessarily imply that they have 'forgotten' that Durga is not their
> >God?
>
> No. They still worship Durga. That is a remnant from the past,
> since all the Rajputs in Rajasthan, have had this tradition of
> worshipping Durga to get Shakti.
Have they been asked that if they know it is against "orthodox Islam"
and still do that anyway ??? - that was A.Ms question .
>
> >Is this 'incomplete conversion' confusing them ???? Somehow, I doubt it.
> >[a few more examples snipped out...]
> >
> >>And I can bet you that a lot of these people do all
> >>that in 100% earnestness.
> >
> >100% earnestness meaning what? That they BELIEVE that Durga or Kali or
> >Parvati
> >or Saraswati or Hanuman is really God, and not A11ah? Like I said before, I
> >don't think there is a single community of Muslims alive that would say or
> >believe that.
>
> Well, there might be some communities still lurking out
> there. And yes, the examples I mentioned, do believe
> in the Divinity of Saraswati. But they also believe in the
> divinity of Allah. And that is the reason, that give time,
> and efforts, the ideological contradictions, will have to
> be resolved.
>
that is called syncretism , and it is CONSCIOUS . People in India today
after what you have done to the communal situation can not remain
unconscious .What ever people do , they do with full consciousness. and
that CONSCIOUS CROSS-RELIGIOUS BEHAVIOUR IS WHAT IS KNOWN AS SYNCRETISM
.(in case you never bothered to check the meaning of the word in
dictionary)
> >>But then, people who belong to such
> >>"syncretic" groups have always been targetted for "purification
> >>and reform" on a consistent basic by Islamic purists.
> >
> >True. But it's not only them - Hindus are also subjected to 'purification'
> >attempts. In our case, these attempts come from GOVERNMENT itself. Why else
> >was
> >I told in my I.C.S.E and I.C.S. (10th and 12th) exams that I would lose
> >points
> >in my essay in my Hindi exam if I used any words that were `Urdu'? Nevermind
> >the fact that many of these words are in common use all over Hindi speaking
> >India, that does not matter; it is governments DUTY to de-urdu-ize the spoken
> >Hindi, right? Also, in my 5th or 6th standard history textbook, there was a
> >chapter called the "Ramayana". The sheer ludicrity of introducing a myth as
> >HISTORY is simply unimaginable.
>
> I was not taught Ramayan as history. But then it does
> make a lot of sense to teach Ramayan in social study
> texts. And if teaching history is indeed the case, then
> almost all Hindu baiters have tried to teach the real
> historical facts of Ramayana.
Let us listen to some names who (other than BJP bandars) take Ramayan to
be history .....
But yes, I agree with you
> that Ramayana should not be taught thru history texts,
> (but thru social study texts).
Wow!!! Ramayan becomes a sociological text these days or what ?????
>
> >>The forces of conversion and assimilation have always been
> >>operational.
> >
> >Absolutely. And if the current Indian cultural landscape is any indication,
> >then Indian Muslims are in no way, losing their 'Indianness'.
>
> Left to themselves, perhaps not. However, for each Rahman,
> who composes music for Vande Mataram (for whatever reason)
> we have 10 commies, almost all Hindus (oh, I forgot atheists)
> who shout from their ivory towers that VM is "communal".
Vande MAtaram had never been called as communal by anyone ever , the
novel Anadamath has been called a communal text , and rightly so. The
attitude of BAnkim was termed as communal . Let us see which commie ever
called Vande MAtaram song(the version we have as our NAtional Anthem )
as communal . I am not interested to know some obscure commie name who
later on ostensibly joined the BAndar ranks .
>
> >>And almost instantly, he was instantly chided by some
> >>of his other Muslim brethern for practicising buta_parastee.
> >
There is no word in Arabic,PErsian or Urdu called Buta_parastee. It is
But_parastee.there is lot of difference between the prefix "but" and the
word "buta" (if you really knew your own language)
> >Yet, so many Indian Muslims, both in India and here in the US, participate in
> >'Hindu' festivals, albeit not in a religious sense, but because they simply
> >wanna enjoy themselves.
> >
> >>1. In other places, we still do not see the existence of political
> >> states like J&K, which have a majority of Muslims.
> >
> >But there are areas with large concentrations of Muslim populations in India.
>
> >Do any of them have a significant anti-national problem? Example, do any of
> >Muslims in these areas engage in regular (or irregular) infringements of the
> >law with the intent of making a statement against government?
> >
> >>2. 5-10 yrs are still too less of a time for the generation of a
> >>rationale, genuine or otherwise, for such a demand.
> >
> >Fine.
> >
> >Well, are there any rumblings, so to speak... any indications of an emergence
> >of an organised Muslim resistance to the BJP/RSS ? And to get to your point,
> >if such 'rumblings' exist, are they coming out of 'madraasas' ?
>
> The Islamic resistence has always been organized. The Imam
> at Dilli sits and decides who votes when, to whom. What makes
> all the politicians scarmble to get an audience with Imam,
> and make him issue a fatwaa.
>
The Imams had been supporting congress and for some time JAnata Dal, the
muslims in Bengal, Kerala, tripura,Andhra,TN,Karnataka decided in favour
of other parties ..So much for your stereotyping and generalisations.
Pran Lal
Nalinaksha wrote:
>I am afraid you are wrong here. Rafiuddin Ahmed did write a well
>researched book titled Bengal Muslims. In it he traced the developement
>of a separate political/social identity in Muslims of Bengal from the
>period 1865 to 1905. What is happening here is selective quotation by
>Nachiketa. For example in the last paragraph of the book Rafiuddin
>clearly opines that the mobilisation of muslim masses under the
>leadership of Muslim aristocracy happened because of a temporary
>alignment of interest against Hindu monopoly on Govt jobs and power. This
>alliance broke up after partition when the Hindu threat was no more.
>Nachiketa will not cite the last paragraph because it thoroughly
>demolishes his theory of a monolithic muslim hooliganism facing a equally
>monolithic Hindu body.
Once a new identity has been created, principally driven by
Islam, how does it matter whether this identity was a consequence
of a temporary or permanent alignment between Muslim masses
and Muslim aristocracy. Ahmed's entire book revolves around
the fact that the rise of Islamic conciousness led to the
creation of this separate identity. And you bring in class issues.
A hundred years after that temporary or permanent alignment,
which you seem to turn your eyes away from, people in BD
are still Abdul, Maniruzzamaan, ... I still do not hear of any
lok_andolan in BD Muslims that seeks to rediscover its pre_Islamic root.
So, the consequences of
that "alignment" have been pretty much permanent. A separate
BD still exists, staring deep into your face. Thousands of
Hindus were still killed during the partition years, despite
the debonding of that "temp. alignment". Whom are you
kidding, Nalin babu. Or is it that your dreams are still not
over.
nachiketa
Supratik Das
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
> > Ki Naeem Bhai kata ghay nuner chita laglo naki?
> Na-re, khub beshi hole ektu kathukuthu legeche.
Naeem tumi prothom 'tui tokari' arombho korecho.
> > Tomader 'syncretismer' dhop diye amar pechon muchi.
>
> Tha bhalo, besh durgondho hoe giechilo, ektu mocha dorkar.
Ta ki korbo bolo tumi onekdin holo chete porishkar koroni. Tomake mase
mase ki emni maine di.
Anyway before this debate becomes even more abusive, let me clarify my
points and sign off. My intention is not to launch into personal attacks
i.e. unless someone does it first and if someone does I will return it to
you in kind.
My points are the following:
a) Personally I am very happy that Hindus and Muslims are sharing their
cultural festivities. This is not news to me becoz I have seen it happen
before but I guess it is news to the 'bhadraloks'.
b) I find it amusing to find Marxists trying to find out 'syncretism' in
religion considering that given a chance they will be the first ones to
finish off religion itself.
c) There is no debate wrt what we observe as 'syncretism'. Yes, it is true
that many Muslims participate in Hindu religious occasions. Some Muslim
communities even worship certain Hindu divinities. I can't say about Bd
but it is true in India. I have seen Muslim girls praying to Lord Shiva in
rural Bihar so that they get good husbands. There are countless other
examples.
d) I am not denying that there was absolutely no 'syncretism'. Kazi Nazrul
Islam is one such example. 'Syncretism' is a conscious choice.
e) What I am arguing is that much of what appears as 'syncretism' was not
a conscious choice initially. Even Jinnah has admitted in one of his
writings that the Muslims of North-West India now Pakistan followed their
former Hindu customs. This is true even in Afghanistan where former Hindu
tribes like Khataks, Sarabans, Suris, etc followed some customs from their
Hindu past. Hence, it was a layering of Islamic belief over a Hindu body.
The Khilafat movement had an element of purging these beliefs to attain
Islamic purity.
f) Now it is true that there were Hindu tribes who converted to Islam out
of free choice but historical records mostly kept by Muslim chroniclers
of Muslim rulers show that most Hindu communities converted in the
aftermath of a war (I hope we agree that most of the Muslim population in
South Asia are converted Hindus).
g) Much of what appears as 'syncretism' is a result of these converts
adjusting to the new faith imposed on them and was hence not a conscious
choice.
Signing off.
> --Naeem Maku (another beautiful Bangla name)
Fight on Naeem. Biplob samnei.
Supratik
Soumitra Bose
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
> > I thought Supratik did know the meaning of some english words like "lie"
>
> I know. Ask your elders if they know coz they didn't teach you.
>
> > . It appears not,. Meos have been targetted by VHP for re-conversion.
>
> Not exactly. Meo community members have approached VHP for reconversion.
Kumar Suresh Singh's edited study of Archeological studies of India has
clearly stated that they were targeted and approached and they rejected
it .
>
> > NOT ONE DID. NOT ONE OF THE MEO MUSLIMS RECONVERTED. There were no
>
> The Asian Age run by MJ Akbar reports that about 50,000 reconverted and
> more will in the near future. All of the them out of their own free will.
I asked(through E-mail) Asian Age to send me the copy of the report,
they have written me back expressing bewilderment to such a news
report.The email said, to quote it, how could we write such a round
figure of 50,000???
>
> > imposition from the Mullahs, as the number of mosques in that region is
> > very minimal and that area never saw big mullahs, the same people who
> > sing the Mahabharat Kahanis are the imams, in fact (a recent India Today
> > report - in which the photograph of the imam singing Ramkatha was
>
> That is exactly the reason why they are reconverting. No sane Mullah will
> recite Ramkatha without reason. The Meos were court musicians in the
> Rajput era but were converted subsequent to Rajput losses at the hands of
> the Mughals when they became court musicians to Mughals. They used to sing
> stories from Hindu mythology which is quite common in rural North India
> and continued to do so even after conversion becoz that was their
> profession.
No proof even by local newspapers that they are getting re-converted. It
was just a couple of lines above you said that Meos were "never
approached". Now you say they are reconverted , so are they doing it on
their own ???? So there would not be the musjid at all or Meos would
have been Hindus by now, but they are not found to be such.
>
> > published). Any community, not a stray human being who was forcibly
> > converted would get rid of that in the very first opportunity in the
> > very first generation after the conversion. Meos are there for a long
>
> Easy to say. If that were true your family wouldn't have remained in India
> after fleeing Bd. They would have returned at the first oppurtunity
> instead of producing a nincompoof like you on Indian soil.
they came here to live under a secular rule , in a country for which my
father and uncles have fought and for which they were jailed, they were
released in Independent India and not in PAkistan. They left as they did
not find it logical and worthwhile to live in a theocratic state. They
with most of the refugees of South Calcutta left East Pakistan not in
1947 but in 1950 when PAkistan becomes Islamic and Jinnah and Liaquat
Ali dead.
Remember for
> every Khalistani there is a KPS Gill. So for each Soumitra there is a
> Supratik. Fight on......
>
Well , we know KPS Gill to be the biggest womanizer of Punjab indicted
in public court. So are you there with same distinctions??? Very
possible , with the great kind of scatological bent of mind you showed
in the net , it is very logical to expect a rapist and a womanizer as
your role-model or menschgeist .
> > long time and nothing happened . Indonesians still keep so-called
> > "Hindu" names and "Hindu" epics, but they are least interested tod get
> > reconverted, they are devout muslims and no less muslims than the Saudis
>
> Why they told you so? Indonesia on the other hand is more a syncretic
> culture becoz they were never really dominated by foreign rulers but
> instead took Islam from the influences of neighbouring Malaysia and
> from Arab settlers who married local women.
If you read history, Bengal's muslimization (not islamization) started
much before the muslim invaders came in , even a little before Shah
Jalal stepped in (if you know his name) Check out Richard Eatons book (I
guess it might be difficult for you to paint him as a commie or an
islamist).
>
> > or Pakistanis. VHPs have tried to reconvert for a long time and always
> > had been a failure in the most disastrous sense of the word. People are
>
> Well actually the Arya Samaj tried first and managed to convert a few.
You are very right !!! very few, especially those who are connected to
the families of Arya Samji leaders as domestic help.
> Dayanand Saraswati paid the price for it. He was poisoned to death.
Nice to know that the muslims penetrated the ranks of Arya Samajis to
poison him, were they relishing sarso ka saag and makkhi ka roti????
>
> > not toys , nor they are pigs in the hands of casteist VHPs, they have
> > strong reasons in whatever they are doing. The family of Bardhaman think
> > they are non-converts and they detested any suggestion of converting
> > into Hinduism. The present patriarch of the family is himself a HAji and
> > is the chief patron of the local Musjid. World does not go in the VHP
> > binary way. VHP is licking the sputum of the colonial binary
> > distinctionary attitude. Indian never knew that, India always welcomed
>
> Well everone is licking something e.g. you are licking Maos soiled
> underwear.
See, once again, another scatology . It is really so easy to drag you
down in the easiest trap. Do you have a disease or some kind of problem
down there , in that part of your body?
>
> > outsiders, they came, they ruled, they mingled , they settled, they
> > sacrificed, they laid down their lives and they defended India, except
> > the British , they wanted to justify their scooting, they inculcated the
>
> True. Most Muslims were converted to Islam by a few zealots like Sikander
> of Kashmir.
>
YEs and that they just never looked back Huh?????? Well, you know who
Sikandar was ?????? Sure ??????
> > binary distinction,their trusted fifth columnist army- the VHP. Supratik
> > here reverberates the sounds of the binary gutters(I am not sure if he
> > understands the meaning of the word binary distinction in social and
>
> I am not sure why you are barking like a dog unless it runs in your
> family.
I thought as much , you do not understand that word, you would not check
it up in the dictionary either. You see, it was my fault (which I make
very often) expecting BJPs to do a little home-work. I keep forgetting
that they are not allowed to do so .
I only pointed out that I do not agree with the theory of
> syncretism as propounded by the Marxist theoreticians of schools like
> JNU.
If the theory of Syncretism is marxist , then I am very inclined to
conclude , you could be getting remuneration from the marxists. My
knowledge of Marxism and marxists says that they are totally against
religion as a viable and futuristic belief system, I thought they do not
consider faith as a part of a "logical" belief system. But since you are
giving them the accolade of bringing out syncretism , you have given
them a very high position which they were unable to do by themselves.
The first book about syncretism in Bengal was written by a BAngladeshi -
a professor in US. I do not think he ever visited JNU at Delhi .
>
> > cultural studies). Syncretism is a very novel phenomenon professed in
> > India by Sufi cult of Islam and the non-conformist anti-casteist
> > bhakti-shakti cults among the present Hindus.
>
> I do not agree with it either. To me Bhakti cult was a reaction to the
> growing menace of Sufi movements in India and also to the denigrating
> practice of casteism in India.
Describing a creative and positive movement as " a reaction" is exactly
how a REACTIONARY looks at the world. A typical bellicose and conspiracy
theorist looks at everything like this . Remember the basic of Mandukya
..
The observer, the observed and the observation are just the same thing
in three forms ...
The Sufi movement itslef was
> aproduct of Islam coming in contact with pre-Islamic Persian
> practices.
Sufi roots started with Egypt and the Sufi masters establish the lineage
with Muhammed himself. So much for your history knowledge.
Here again the neo-convert was experimenting his old
> beliefs with his new faith. Syncretism had nothing to do with
> the reconciliation of Islam with Hinduism except for a brief period but
> was a result of converted Hindus and non-converted ones trying to adjust
> to each others socio-religious moorings and to the new religious doctrine
> of Islam.
Great historical gem !!!! any references ??? any citations ??? which
period ??????
>
> > THis part is true from Supratik-speak. Any thing which does not conform
> > to the BAjrang or Bandar dal is mis-interpretation, that is true there.
>
> I am sure that Marxist interpretation is not the only one or the ultimate
> one for anything. I am sure there can be many interpretations to it. Most
> Bengalies on scb are crying foul becoz my interpretation doesn't tally
> with what they would like to hear.
You are so right , your interpretation is so inimical to bengalees, and
so akin to the Bandars !!!! Good that you realized.
>
> > > Supratik
Soumitra Bose
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
> > language with which one first calls the mother)- scatology. I am more
> > than sure what his mother did to this kid with this attitude .
> >
> > patar rosh ityadi diye thaken . Supratiker Ma , hoi bhule giyechilen ar
> > na hoi , sishur jonmologner bajhik alamot dekhe jarpornai hotodyom
> > hoiechilen.
>
> Guys on scb please note that Soumitra has done the ultimate on scb i.e.
> 'Ma' tule galagali. Judging from the fact that Udayan, etc didn't condemn
> this personal insult (probably he likes it) I am not to be blamed anymore
> for using foul language or verbal abuse on scb. Henceforth this is an open
> forum.
>
> Supratik
So much for your knowledge of the language . If the language used is "Ma
tule galagali" then the definition of galagali needs a revisit. Why
don't you run by your Mother and check whatever she has to say. She is
as it is very annoyed with your stoops and now with this she would be so
frustrated with your knowledge of bangla and the sense of rhetoric, that
she might go deep down in pensive mood into your upbringing. Like any
bengali mother, she would be very disturbed and that is a matter of
grave concern. Just think about in what predicament , you put her in .
Nice Suputra indeed.
Partha Chatterjee
In article <60pbsq$l...@romulus.rutgers.edu>, mi...@romulus.rutgers.edu says...
>
>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>
>>What is Jotho Dosh/Marxist Ghosh!!!
>
>It's a sarcastic comment... that everything thats wrong (sab dosh) is
>because of marxist ghosh...
>it rhymes with another common bangla expression .. but i dont remember what it
>is.. :(
>
The original is "Jotho Dosh Nando Ghosh" - Nando Ghosh possibly refers to
Krishna's foster father.
This is an excellent counter logic to what guys like Nachiketa tries to prove -
Nachiketa tries to prove that Bengali Hindus are closer to him rather than the
Muslim. Naeem, a Bengali Muslim( I am not sure though, trying to surmise from
his name), uses a phrase which alludes to Hindu myths and Nachiketa a hard-core
Hindu doesn't have a clue! This single instance amply proves that the
culture of India transcends religion which is beyond the comprehension
of zealots like Nachiketa and Supratik.
Thanks,
Partha
Abhijit Mitra
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>I do not know Abhijit what your point is in this regard.
It was to point out that Hindus taking part in Christian festivities, or
Muslims taking part in Hindu ones, is not necessarily a product of 'incomplete
conversion'; it could be an example of syncretism.
You have not been able to show that the Muslim family in Borddhoman is
incompletely converted; in the same vein, the proponents of syncretism have
not been able to show that they are correct either.
I am merely trying to say that it is wrong to dismiss all instances such as
these as cases of 'incomplete conversion'; syncretism IS a possibility that you
need to look into.
>We cannot just wait and sit under the notion of "Oh we
>are syncretic, and hence do not have to care."
Well, we also can not sit in the notion that everytime a Muslim decided to
take part in Durga Puja festivities, it is symptomatic in some way, of past
atrocities on his/her ancestors which should be mourned (and even rectified).
>1. Economics. (ex. The Muslims of Merrut making brassware
> depicting Hindu Gods/Goddesses).
I don't see how that applies to the Muslim family in Bordhoman. If anything,
attending Durga Puja is a costly affair.
>2. Lack of knowledge
I'm sorry, I just dont buy that. The Muslim family in Borddhomaan does not KNOW
that Durga, an idol, is against Islamic beliefs??? That just doesnt sound
plausible.
>3. Partial Conversion and Strong Bonds with Past
Okay, that is a possibility - however, that is more a symptom of the cultural
strength of Hinduism than of any 'incomplete conversion'...
>4. Do not care attitudes:
Yes, agreed. Many Muslims I know, simply do not CARE. They like to enjoy
themselves, and they do so. They go to Hindu festivals and they go to Christian
festivals. This could be termed as syncretism, could it not?
>No. They still worship Durga.
But do they indulge in this worship with the Bhakti of a Hindu? Or do they
simply do it because such are the cultural mores of the region?
>But then it does make a lot of sense to teach Ramayan in social study texts.
I dont agree. The Ramayana, although a very well-written book, is just that -
a book; a book that has been mythologisized (sp?) over the years. It is said
that the events of the Ramayana are based on the life of a real king called
Ram, however, it is NOT a history text - it is merely BASED on fact, but it is
not fact in itself. The correct place of the Ramayana would be in a literature
class or even in a religion class.
>The Islamic resistence has always been organized.
Yeah, they've been so organized that Hindu fundamentalists broke one of their
mosques, after announcing MONTHS in advance that they planned to do it. Where
was this organization?
My point is this - the Islamic threat, which you seem to imply exists from
time to time, is probably not as severe as you think it is. The real threat
comes from fundamentalistic forces within Islam, however, they don't have any
mass following among Muslims in India. Proof - how many seats in Parliament
did any of these right-wing Muslim parties win in the last 5 general elections?
Look it up and you'll know what I mean. The only reason people seem to have
this paranoia about it is unscrupulous politicans who scare people to get
votes. Don't get me wrong, I AM a strong believer in Hindu values and I also
believe India should be governed by these same values (as much as possible in
the late 20th century, that is). I just do not believe that the main barrier to
this is the Muslims... the real barriers lie within our HINDU politicans, who
would rather divide and rule us (and call it pseudo-secularism) than give us
what we want - good, honest government.
-A.M.
Abhijit Mitra
>Supratik Das wrote:
>> this personal insult (probably he likes it) I am not to be blamed anymore
>> for using foul language or verbal abuse on scb. Henceforth this is an open
>> forum.
Supratik -
You GOOOOOOOOOO !!!! Curse Soumitras pants off, man!! Shahajjo dorkar hole,
aami achi :-))) I will join you... so will others... but you have to start!!
Whoever drives Soumitra to tears first gets a prize...!!
$500.00 and a free cruise to the Bahamas :-)
-A.M.
Partha Chatterjee
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.970929173715.2141A-100000@post>, Supratik says...
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
>> Once again, fallen in the trap!!! Supratik with his mother tongue(the
>> language with which one first calls the mother)- scatology. I am more
>> than sure what his mother did to this kid with this attitude .
>>
>> Sishu boyeshe ma era cheleder mukhe ar kane (onek shomoie ) modhu, tulsi
>> patar rosh ityadi diye thaken . Supratiker Ma , hoi bhule giyechilen ar
>> na hoi , sishur jonmologner bajhik alamot dekhe jarpornai hotodyom
>> hoiechilen.
>
>
>
>Guys on scb please note that Soumitra has done the ultimate on scb i.e.
>'Ma' tule galagali. Judging from the fact that Udayan, etc didn't condemn
>for using foul language or verbal abuse on scb. Henceforth this is an open
>forum.
>
>
>
>Supratik
>
Supratik,
Kichhu maney korben na ( tui-tokari kortey ichhey korchhilo,
kintu jakey baley scb'r prajnyo nettor boley katha!)- apni thik
thik bangali to? Na asholey 'khotta'(forgive me Nachikteta babu!)
bangali shejechhen? - Naholey 'janmer shomoi Ma mukhey modhu ditey
bhuley gechhilo' - ei lobjo'ta shonen ni?
Amader aak shohopathi chhilo bikhyato ghauRa (maney janen to? Na janley
jiggesh korben agei boley dichhi hashahashi korbo na), tay abar Karate
bisharod, takey aak Onukul thakurerbhokto 'Param Pitar' katha bolechhilo
- phal - 'Baptuley galagali deor' doshey Param Pitar priyo shantaner badan
bikriti.
Dekhi ebar Soumitra bachhadhaner ki hoi? Je khaney shekhanei juktir
obotarona!! Earki peyechhey? ( Pachhey etao tan hoye jai, tai
chhobio diye dilam :-))
Dhonyobadantey,
Partha
pchatto...@ies-energy.com
In article <19970927213...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, pra...@aol.com
says...
>
>>What you say about the Koranic diktat may be disputed. I have a
>>different question - the Islamic aversion to polytheism and the
>>concept of one and only true religion is directly inherited from
>>the Jews (do you need citation? I hope the Old Testament would
>>be good enough), now it is understandable that you are all praise
>>about the openness of Hinduism and hateful about the bigotry of
>>Islam but how then come you and your alikes have come out in defence
>>of Israel which proclaims itself as a Jewish state? I think if
>>you denounce bigotry you should do so for every variety of it.
>
>The Jews have not tormented me, nor my ancestors. That is
>one reason why I would not bother about Jews, or Old Testament.
>
>Still further, amongst all the midEastern states, it is the Jewish
>state of Israel that is the MOST open and MOST tolerant.
>Despite all that stuff in OT. So why should I bother. It seems
>that they have left the bad stuff in OT for past only, for good.
>Perhaps that is one reason, why I would not be hanged or
>shot to death, if I managed to convert a Jew to Hinduism
>in Israel. Further, I do not think that any proponent of Judaism
>or Christianity was so much of an insane person as Mohammed.
>Sure, he needs a lot of peace bestowed upon him. And
>finally, I will advocate in favor of Israel for reasons of pragmatism.
>5 decades of a rabid almost fanatical anti-Jewish policy on part of the
>GOI has given us zilch. It is time we tried a new formula.
>
>And then I forgot:
>
>If tomorrow, they (Jews) say and do the same stuff what Islamic
>proponents have done, then yes, my reaction will be the
>same.
>
>That is my response. About the rest of "my alikes" ask them.
>I speak for myself. I rarely dabble in "we_think".
>
>BTW, what is the reason why you denounce the Jewish
>state, and remain silent on grade 1 examples of intolerance
>like S. Arabia. Or is it that the answer to that question has
>to be sought from the bygone thekedars of Soviet Union.
>
Who told you I denounce the Jewish state or I support the intolerence
of Saudi Arabia? I did give the example of Israel because the
very foundation of the state of Israel is based on the sayings
in Old Testament (it wasn't just a case of homeland, because
the Zionists were offered land in Africa but they wanted
Palestine as the Old Testament says that it is the promised
land).
My point was that for the sake of logical consistency if you
denounce the bigotry of Islam then you should condemn the
route cause of that which is Judaism because that is the first
religion which teaches that there are some people who are more
equal than others and the children of the lesser gods should
either follow the true god or be destroyed.
Therefore, my specific question is - do you denounce all religions
which teaches intolerance to other reiligions? (We should not
consider tolerance for conveniences sake like global image etc.,
because in this same discussion you have mentioned elsewhere that
Muslimshave behaved syncretically for the sake of various conveniences
and we are discussing inherent characters of a religion.)If that be the
case then you should not talk about the deficiency of Islam only, you
should qualify your stand suitably even if you say that Islam is your
immediate danger.
Alternatively, if you think that there are good and bad religious
intolerances then I guess there is no point in participating in
a discussion with you because I have a hunch that you have a fair dose
of the good variety in yourself.
Really looking forward to your response.
Partha
>
>
>nachiketa
>
>
Supratik Das
On 28 Sep 1997, Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
> : glad that Soumyo and other Bengalies have suddenly discovered this fact.
> The basis of this conclusion is not clear.
Soumyo was elated to find out that a few Muslim families were performing
Durga puja. It is a well known fact for those who have traveled in rural
Bengal.
> : However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
> : 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that. The people seem to follow a
> Since when did the word "syncretic" become the exclusive property of
> "Marxist paridgm"?
Most of the proponents of this theory are from Marxist schools like JNU
but I will accept that there are others who are not Marxist.
> : syncretic religo-social life because of incomplete conversion of Hindu
> : communities to Islam mostly conducted in the aftermath of a war. A case in
> Therefore, we should have seen a completely Muslim India. Yet we see that
> Hindus form about 80% of India.
Your calculation is off. You are leaving the populations of BD and Pk.
In the Islamic sphere of influence in India about 1/3rd to 1/2 the
population is Muslim which is a huge number given the population.
Another 300-400 yrs and we would have been completely Islamic.
> : For the next 800 yrs they haven't reconverted back to Hinduism because of
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : orthodox Hindus objecting to it and orthodox Mullahs preventing it neither
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : did they fully integrate into Muslim society. So they retained their
>
> : earlier Hindu culture and adopted the imposed Islamic one as best as they
> Few questions
> 1. Why did the orthodox Hindus not object to the retention of Hindu
> culture and yet objected to their reconversion?
They didn't mind what the converted Hindus did as long as they were kept
out of the mainstream Hindu society e.g. the whole Muslim population of
Kashmir wanted to reconvert to Hinduism during Dogra rule but could not do
so due to the obstinacy of the Kashmiri Brahmins who thought they were
defiled and hence could not be taken back. Brahmins were the main
opposers. So blame your ancestors.-:)
> 2. Why did not the orthodox Mullahs prevent the adoption of Hindu
> culture, especially when they could prevent the reconversion?
They did oppose. Islamic purification took place in Bengal precisely becoz
the Mullahs thought that the converted population was straying too much
towards their pre-Islamic customs.
> : could. Recently some of them reconverted to Hinduism when the VHP
> : persuaded the Hindu orthodoxy to accept them into the Rajput clan.
> Aabar VHP ke jiggasha korle ora bolen je ora naki jat-pat e bishwas koren na!
I think the rational is that the Rajputs in Rajasthan still have a 15th
century attitude and hence need some persuasion to take back their own
people who they considered defiled for centuries. It is a change in
attitude under difficult environs. The RSS doesn't believe in caste but
the VHP still has some orthodox Hindus. These purification ritual was
sanctified by the Head of Kanchi Mutt himself. Considering that these
mutts are full off religious hardliners I think it s a positive change in
attitude. The good part of it is that Hindus should get out of the
mentality that Muslims are defiled but rather accept the fact that they
are their own brothers who converted under hard times and thus accept them
with open arms if they wish to return to their parental faith. I don't see
what is fanatic or communal about it.
> : Similarly the VHP also persuaded a community in Gujrat to integrate into
> : Hindu society. This community used Hindu names, worshipped
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Goddess Amba
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : and yet followed Islam. If any of the Marxist idiots have read Quran will
> Mane VHP oder ki bolechhe-Amba er Puja koro na naki Namaj ta poro na?
> Bhalo kotha, aapni ki kokhono Greek Moussaka kheyechen-oi je jar bhetore
> ground beef deoa thake? Aamar mone hoy onek rai Musalman hoyechillo ei
> goru khabar joynno:))
This report came out in India Today. Strangely they had pictures of
Goddess Amba in their homes and yet went to the mosque to offer namaaz.
The article had one picture also. If I am not mistaken Arya Samaj also has
no prohibition against eating beef because they follow the original Vedic
system where there is no bar against eating beef. It was introduced later
by Brahmins in Manusmriti.
> : find out thats impossible as per religious belief. So almost all such
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Sheta Das Moshai oi Musalman der i bhabte din-ora Quran ke ki rokom bhabe
> dekhbe! Shob Musalman to aar Taliban er kaydayai Quran er byakhha kore
Islam is against idolatory. So the question of a practising Muslim keeping
pictures of goddesses is absurd. However, still some do so becoz they have
retained aspects of their previous faith which they parted with
reluctantly.
> : 'syncretic' cultures are borne out of converted Hindus adjusting to their
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : new socio-political environment rather than examples of Hindu beliefs and
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Etai to Syncretic tai na? Duto dhormer songmisron.
I think there is no debate over the outcome. What we are debating is what
were the circumstances that led to this apparent syncretism. BTW, for
Marxists I am glad at the outcome. It makes me proud to see Bengali
Muslims participating in Durga Puja and Hindus vice versa. What I am
pointing out is that society adapted a belief namely Islam to local
customs which was propunded on it from the top and which was incompatible
to the beliefs of the people it was pushed on. Hence, only in Hindu or
similar cultures you see such mismashes not in other monotheistic
cultures.
> : Islam coexisting side by side as a result of natural affinities as
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Dhormo ta to aar Chemistry noy je "natural affinity" thakbe. Aapni ki
> bhabcheen je Sodium aar Jol je rokom ek sathe ele hu hu kore jole jay,
> temni Hindu Musalman kacha kachi thaklei shudhu mara mari korbe?
Islam has not coexisted anywhere in the world peacefully with other
religions. It has either decimated them e.g. Afghanistan or was defeated
in return e.g. Spain. I was merely pointing that out.
> : While it is true that historical events have made many sections of Indian
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : society 'syncretic', what is wrong is to misinterpret them as is being
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : done by Marxist idiots.
> Aapnar ei paragraph ti pore shob kemon guliye gelo. Ta hole bolchhen je
> Indian society hochhe aashole 'syncretic' kintu "Marxist idiot" ra ei
> kothati bolle Mahabharat osuddho hoye jabe!
As explained above. Marxists are deliberately confusing the causes leading
to the observed 'apparent syncretism'. That is the point of debate.
Supratik
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.970929174108.2141B-100000@post>, d...@aecom.yu.edu
says...
>
>Why they told you so? Indonesia on the other hand is more a syncretic
>culture becoz they were never really dominated by foreign rulers but
>instead took Islam from the influences of neighbouring Malaysia and
>from Arab settlers who married local women.
>
Supratik,
Do you know the history of Indonesia prior to 1945?
Udayan
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Pran Lal (pra...@aol.com) wrote:
: Once a new identity has been created, principally driven by
: Islam, how does it matter whether this identity was a consequence
: of a temporary or permanent alignment between Muslim masses
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: and Muslim aristocracy. Ahmed's entire book revolves around
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It matters in understanding the lessons from history.
: the fact that the rise of Islamic conciousness led to the
: creation of this separate identity. And you bring in class issues.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't bring in the class issue. Rafiuddin Ahmad, the historian, does.
: A hundred years after that temporary or permanent alignment,
: which you seem to turn your eyes away from, people in BD
: are still Abdul, Maniruzzamaan, ... I still do not hear of any
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So? The Bengali culture and civilisation embraces its Hindu and Islamic
heritage, inter alia. Why cannot a person named Abdul or Maniruzzaman be
a Bengali? Are all persons named Abdul or Maniruzzaman Arabs? How
ridiculous can you get!
: lok_andolan in BD Muslims that seeks to rediscover its pre_Islamic root.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you ever had an iota of knowledge of Bhasha Andolan, you would have
realised that the Bengalis of Bangladesh had asserted their Bengali
identity against pernicious Pakistani propaganda of Bengali being a Hindu
language. To quote Rafiuddin "there is no conflict between Bengali
identity and Islamic identity" (parapharased).
: So, the consequences of
: that "alignment" have been pretty much permanent. A separate
: BD still exists, staring deep into your face. Thousands of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You mean that in your eyes they will never be secular till they merge
with India! Dear Nachiketa, Bengal was divided by Congress when they
decided to thwart the Independent Bengal plan of Sarat Bose, Abul
Hashem et al.
: Hindus were still killed during the partition years, despite
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And not to forget so were the Muslims. They were killed in large numbers too.
: the debonding of that "temp. alignment". Whom are you
: kidding, Nalin babu. Or is it that your dreams are still not
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: over.
~~~~~~~
You are very right Nachiketa, my dreams are still not over. I still dream
of a day when we shall have visa free travel between the two Bengals,
when the magazines of Dhaka will be sold on the footpath of Calcutta and
when religious fundamentalists will lie low in their caves.
Pran Lal
>They didn't mind what the converted Hindus did as long as they were kept
>out of the mainstream Hindu society e.g. the whole Muslim population of
>Kashmir wanted to reconvert to Hinduism during Dogra rule but could not do
>so due to the obstinacy of the Kashmiri Brahmins who thought they were
>defiled and hence could not be taken back. Brahmins were the main
>opposers. So blame your ancestors.-:)
>
Actually, this is a very valid and real issue. Prior to VHP, there was
no real organized attempt to include willing Muslims back into the
Hindu fold. I remember quite sometime back, then a Mr. Khan,
a family friend of ours, who took pride in his Rajput_ness, commented:
"I can convert to Hindu religion today. But will a Hindu Rajput take
the hand of my daughter." Questions, as valid as this one, were largely
unanswered. They were addressed to some extent by Swami
Dayanand. But then, issues like these have solutions in the
society rather than in theology and doctrines.
After 1980's VHP folks have addressed this very real question. And
they have realized that the situation could find a solution if large scale
conversions took place. I think it was partly this strategy of theirs
that led them to succesfully bring back quite a large number of
Muslims and Christians into the parent fold. They have found success
in Rajasthan, Bihar, MP, and parts of the N.E.
nachiketa
Naeem Mohaiemen
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
>
> > > Ki Naeem Bhai kata ghay nuner chita laglo naki?
> > Na-re, khub beshi hole ektu kathukuthu legeche.
> Naeem tumi prothom 'tui tokari' arombho korecho.
Kinthu thumi prothom "pechon mocha" humor enecho. Ekhon etho shadhu
shajthe jeo na.
> Anyway before this debate becomes even more abusive, let me clarify my
> points and sign off. My intention is not to launch into personal attacks
Shuru korle thumi, abar thumi nijei ekhon "chere de ma" korcho.
> a) Personally I am very happy that Hindus and Muslims are sharing their
> cultural festivities. This is not news to me becoz I have seen it happen
> before but I guess it is news to the 'bhadraloks'.
Posting on SCB doesn't mean it's news to bhodroloks-- just bringing it
to wider attention.
> b) I find it amusing to find Marxists trying to find out 'syncretism' in
> religion considering that given a chance they will be the first ones to
> finish off religion itself.
That's why it's doubly amusing that you called it a "Marxist paradigm"
Which was my original point: "What's syncretism got to with Marxism?",
and now you've proven the point yourself.
> c) There is no debate wrt what we observe as 'syncretism'.
Or rather, you'd like there not to be a debate.
> d) I am not denying that there was absolutely no 'syncretism'. Kazi Nazrul
> Islam is one such example. 'Syncretism' is a conscious choice.
Yes.
> Fight on Naeem. Biplob samnei.
Thanks. Thui hobi first-against-the-wall =)
Pran Lal
>Pran Lal (pra...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: Once a new identity has been created, principally driven by
>: Islam, how does it matter whether this identity was a consequence
>: of a temporary or permanent alignment between Muslim masses
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>: and Muslim aristocracy. Ahmed's entire book revolves around
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>It matters in understanding the lessons from history.
>
>: the fact that the rise of Islamic conciousness led to the
>: creation of this separate identity. And you bring in class issues.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>I don't bring in the class issue. Rafiuddin Ahmad, the historian, does.
>
This is what Suranjan Das, a no BJP_ite feels about the book.
I quote from Das's book: The Bengal Riots.
"Communalism in Indian politics was initially expressed in elite
conflicts over education, jobs and political concessions. But
COMMUNALIMS ALSO HAD POPULAR DIMENSION.
Detailed research by RAFIUDDIN AHMED, .., has shown
that tensions, ... , between tradionalists and fundamentalists,
... imparted a strong Islamic identity to Bengali Muslims. He
particularly emphasizes the role of mullas, in this connection.
One indication of the growing sense of identity among the
Bengali Muslims at the turn of 20th century was an increasing
substitution fo Arabic and Persian names for the local first names,
which had for so long been common among the poorer
Muslims."
So, Mr. NB, the essence of Ahmed's book lies in the fact
that he almost in the entire book talks about the role of religion
in the creation of a separate identity among Bengali Muslims.
And you are cooking up an entirely different story on the
basis of ONE PARAGRAPH of the book. Now this is an
example of slick_ness. (Sayan wondered sometime back
as to what is slick.)
>: A hundred years after that temporary or permanent alignment,
>: which you seem to turn your eyes away from, people in BD
>: are still Abdul, Maniruzzamaan, ... I still do not hear of any
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>So? The Bengali culture and civilisation embraces its Hindu and Islamic
>heritage, inter alia. Why cannot a person named Abdul or Maniruzzaman be
>a Bengali? Are all persons named Abdul or Maniruzzaman Arabs? How
>ridiculous can you get!
How ridiculous Suranjan Das could get. He also makes the
same comment which I made.
>
>
>: lok_andolan in BD Muslims that seeks to rediscover its pre_Islamic root.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>If you ever had an iota of knowledge of Bhasha Andolan, you would have
>realised that the Bengalis of Bangladesh had asserted their Bengali
>identity against pernicious Pakistani propaganda of Bengali being a Hindu
>language.
Bhasha Andolan was way time back. It ended with the creation
of BD. Islamic forces have worked overtime ever since.
Or is it that to evaluate a post 1971 BD, you need one more
BOOK.
>
>
>
>: So, the consequences of
>: that "alignment" have been pretty much permanent. A separate
>: BD still exists, staring deep into your face. Thousands of
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>You mean that in your eyes they will never be secular till they merge
>with India!
To begin with, they should dismantle the "official religion
status" for Islam. Then, you and I could talk about it.
>Dear Nachiketa, Bengal was divided by Congress when they
>decided to thwart the Independent Bengal plan of Sarat Bose, Abul
>Hashem et al.
Arey chhodho. Is that Joyaa Bee talking now.
>: Hindus were still killed during the partition years, despite
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>And not to forget so were the Muslims. They were killed in large numbers too.
>
>: the debonding of that "temp. alignment". Whom are you
>: kidding, Nalin babu. Or is it that your dreams are still not
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>: over.
>~~~~~~~
>You are very right Nachiketa, my dreams are still not over. I still dream
>of a day when we shall have visa free travel between the two Bengals,
>when the magazines of Dhaka will be sold on the footpath of Calcutta and
>when religious fundamentalists will lie low in their caves.
A visa_less travel may even occur between India and Pakistan.
That shall prove nothing. The path to a just state comes thru
the dictum of sarva_dharma_sambhaava. That is the metric
that I am gonna keep in mind when evaluating BD. You can
get a visa to BD, but if Hindus still get kicked out of BD, then
your dreams are still dreams. If that is your dream, then I am
with you.
BTW: There is a line by Dinkar:
aankha mein ho swarga lekin,
paaon prithvi par tike hoan.
(You might have the heaven in your eyes.
But your feet should not leave the ground).
nachiketa
Soumitra Bose
Pran Lal wrote:
>
> >Once again, fallen in the trap!!! Supratik with his mother tongue(the
> >language with which one first calls the mother)- scatology. I am more
> >than sure what his mother did to this kid with this attitude .
>
> turning to your good old days.
>
> nachiketa
reading and comprehension , let me expand my last statement . I am sure
that Supratik's mother never approve of this attitude of his son and
either had given him number of big spankings or stopped looking at his
face . That is what generally mothers do in Bengal, they do not condone
their filthy sons ....You got it ......
Pran Lal
Partha babu: Stop preaching culture. There are more basic
things than say, culture. One of them is survival. The falling
no. of Hindus in BD is one fact, that none of your so called
syncretism can explain. Kavita and kahaanis do not make a
culture. It is the kriti of a person and a people, that perhaps
defines the sams_kriti in far more stronger ways.
nachiketa
Soumitra Bose
Pran Lal wrote:
>
> Nalinaksha wrote:
>
> >I am afraid you are wrong here. Rafiuddin Ahmed did write a well
> >researched book titled Bengal Muslims. In it he traced the developement
> >of a separate political/social identity in Muslims of Bengal from the
> >period 1865 to 1905. What is happening here is selective quotation by
> >Nachiketa. For example in the last paragraph of the book Rafiuddin
> >clearly opines that the mobilisation of muslim masses under the
> >leadership of Muslim aristocracy happened because of a temporary
> >alignment of interest against Hindu monopoly on Govt jobs and power. This
> >alliance broke up after partition when the Hindu threat was no more.
> >Nachiketa will not cite the last paragraph because it thoroughly
> >demolishes his theory of a monolithic muslim hooliganism facing a equally
> >monolithic Hindu body.
>
> Islam, how does it matter whether this identity was a consequence
> of a temporary or permanent alignment between Muslim masses
> creation of this separate identity. And you bring in class issues.
> which you seem to turn your eyes away from, people in BD
> are still Abdul, Maniruzzamaan, ... I still do not hear of any
> that "alignment" have been pretty much permanent. A separate
> BD still exists, staring deep into your face. Thousands of
> kidding, Nalin babu. Or is it that your dreams are still not
>
> nachiketa
why should not a separate BAngladesh exist. It is very beneficial to
have a state of Bangladesh as a neighbour to West Bengal,Tripura and
BArak Valley. We do not feel any adrenalin pressure to go on any
imperialistic and medieval empire building . Of course not as long as
Bandars are around in the block.Hindus are being persecuted in
bangladesh is a fact , and equally strong is the fact that Hindus are
being PROTECTED by their Muslim neighbours against the thugs and
hoodlums. More than 12 million of Hindus and Budhhists and Christians
are still there in BAngladesh. If Muslims would have been after their
blood and property in general then that number would have not survived
at least through the regimes of BNP .People are fighting together
against fundamentalists and communalists , they are doing the same in
India too. People are same throughout .
Soumitra Bose
have popular appeal both among the Muslims and Hindus in Bangladesh.
Similarly fundamentalists have some popular appeal in the cow-land of
INdia , being the biggest political party. The fact also states that
people are fighting and gaining too. In India as well as in Bangladesh.
Soumitra Bose
So the falling number of Hindus go beyond the sameness of language and
literature of bangla , Huh!!!! The increasing number of muslim minor
girls being raped in Mumbai is therefore more fundamental than culture
and language and literature right. What kind of "kritis" do we have to
share with the rapist bandars (monkeys are not known to rape in animal
world). And if that kind of "kriti" defines Indians or Hindus , with
what kind of "sams"(or unitedly) are we going to show our identities.
No you are wrong, Pran-NAcho( a fuzzy name - not sure what the real name
is ) Bengalis refuse to share identities with the child-rapists of
Mumbai.We never allowed riots after 1946 , i.e In Independant India. We
in West Bengal stopped pretty ruthlessly any conflagration of communal
flare. We would carry that tradition. We look forward to our brethren in
Bangladesh fighting out day to day pitch battles on the streets and
riverines of that country against the mullahs .That makes us blood
brothers , the samskriti - the culture, the sharing of history, language
,literature, struggle,ideology and an unconditional love for our
language, literature, art and that for our Rupashi BAngla MA .
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Abhijit Mitra wrote:
> Whoever drives Soumitra to tears first gets a prize...!!
> $500.00 and a free cruise to the Bahamas :-)
Soumitra-ke ayto bhoy ?
Shoumyo.
Soumitra Bose
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On 28 Sep 1997, Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> > : glad that Soumyo and other Bengalies have suddenly discovered this fact.
>
> > The basis of this conclusion is not clear.
>
> Soumyo was elated to find out that a few Muslim families were performing
> Durga puja. It is a well known fact for those who have traveled in rural
> Bengal.
>
> > : However, Sayan in typical Marxist paradigm has defined these people as
> > : 'syncretic'. It is a lie, blatant at that. The people seem to follow a
>
> > Since when did the word "syncretic" become the exclusive property of
> > "Marxist paridgm"?
>
> Most of the proponents of this theory are from Marxist schools like JNU
> but I will accept that there are others who are not Marxist.
I have not come across the word Syncretism featuring in any JNU research
documents or books written by ex-JNU scholars . The most popular book
about syncretism was written by a Bangladeshi Hindu scholar (Ashim
Roy)from US.
>
> > : syncretic religo-social life because of incomplete conversion of Hindu
> > : communities to Islam mostly conducted in the aftermath of a war. A case in
>
> > Therefore, we should have seen a completely Muslim India. Yet we see that
> > Hindus form about 80% of India.
>
> Your calculation is off. You are leaving the populations of BD and Pk.
Hindus form 50% of the total population combined.
>
> In the Islamic sphere of influence in India about 1/3rd to 1/2 the
> population is Muslim which is a huge number given the population.
> Another 300-400 yrs and we would have been completely Islamic.
>
> > : For the next 800 yrs they haven't reconverted back to Hinduism because of
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > : orthodox Hindus objecting to it and orthodox Mullahs preventing it neither
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > : did they fully integrate into Muslim society. So they retained their
> >
> > : earlier Hindu culture and adopted the imposed Islamic one as best as they
>
> > Few questions
> > 1. Why did the orthodox Hindus not object to the retention of Hindu
> > culture and yet objected to their reconversion?
>
> They didn't mind what the converted Hindus did as long as they were kept
> out of the mainstream Hindu society e.g. the whole Muslim population of
> Kashmir wanted to reconvert to Hinduism during Dogra rule but could not do
> so due to the obstinacy of the Kashmiri Brahmins who thought they were
> defiled and hence could not be taken back. Brahmins were the main
> opposers. So blame your ancestors.-:)
HUHHUUUHHHH!!!! anyway even discounting the words like "whole" , "all".
isn't that symptomatic of Brahminical apartheid???
>
> > 2. Why did not the orthodox Mullahs prevent the adoption of Hindu
> > culture, especially when they could prevent the reconversion?
>
> They did oppose. Islamic purification took place in Bengal precisely becoz
> the Mullahs thought that the converted population was straying too much
> towards their pre-Islamic customs.
>
> > : could. Recently some of them reconverted to Hinduism when the VHP
> > : persuaded the Hindu orthodoxy to accept them into the Rajput clan.
>
> > Aabar VHP ke jiggasha korle ora bolen je ora naki jat-pat e bishwas koren na!
jotokhon na nijer ghore amontroner dorkar pore totokhon.
BJP tai chai jate amra shob mussalman ke Taliban bhabi.
>
> Islam is against idolatory. So the question of a practising Muslim keeping
> pictures of goddesses is absurd. However, still some do so becoz they have
> retained aspects of their previous faith which they parted with
> reluctantly.
>
> > : 'syncretic' cultures are borne out of converted Hindus adjusting to their
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > : new socio-political environment rather than examples of Hindu beliefs and
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> > Etai to Syncretic tai na? Duto dhormer songmisron.
Kake bojhabe ???
Partha Chatterjee
In article <19970930104...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, pra...@aol.com
says...
in different degrees and really there are other fundamental things
than culture and as a part of it a person's religion. That's the whole
point I wanted to make that there are more importnat things in earth
than religion. Religion doesn't play an important part in the survival
game may be the broader culture do to some extent, in fact, being
rigid about anything reduces the chances of survival. From that point
of view the chances of survival of the likes of yours seem to be pretty dim.
Thanks,
Partha
Pran Lal
>Who told you I denounce the Jewish state or I support the intolerence
>of Saudi Arabia? I did give the example of Israel because the
>very foundation of the state of Israel is based on the sayings
>in Old Testament (it wasn't just a case of homeland, because
>the Zionists were offered land in Africa but they wanted
>Palestine as the Old Testament says that it is the promised
>land).
>
>My point was that for the sake of logical consistency if you
>denounce the bigotry of Islam then you should condemn the
>route cause of that which is Judaism because that is the first
>religion which teaches that there are some people who are more
>equal than others and the children of the lesser gods should
>either follow the true god or be destroyed.
If tommorrow, the Muslims of India develop a leadership as
secular and reasonable as that of the Jews, and start ignoring
the Koranic diktats, then I would stop caring what the Koran
says. A case in this point is the Parsis. I have come accross
refs. and studies, which show that a lot of the modern semitic
ideas are rooted in the preachings of Zarathrustra. However,
to me an Indian Parsee, does not go around touting the virtues
of absolute duality. So, I do not get bothered by the concept
of an absolute good and an absolute evil (of Parsee dharma).
Similarly, what has been taught in Judaism has affected me and
my nation very little. We have had a sizable community of
Jews in India, and they hardly created any trouble. And
so, I would welcome them once again, if they had to flee from
anyother place in the world for any reason.
>Therefore, my specific question is - do you denounce all religions
>which teaches intolerance to other reiligions?
From a theological perspective, the answer is yes. Will I lose my
sleep over some doctrine, whose followers are located far from
India, or who do not abide by letter of the doctrine in general,
then the answer is: no.
nachiketa
Abhijit Mitra
Shoumyo Dasgupta <sho...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Soumitra-ke ayto bhoy ?
Absolutely... hes scary :-)
--
aankho(n) mei(n) ho swarg, lekin,
paao(n) prithvi par tike ho...