BJP-Jayalalitha Alliance!
Partha Banerjee
BJP and SS, BJP and BSP, BJP and the Akalis, BJP and Mamata Congress (in
Bengal), BJP and Jayalalitha. Talk about opportunism! And this is the
so-called "party of difference"!
This also tells us how desparate BJP is this time to win the elections.
They would go to ANY lengths.
Here is something from The Hindu.
An unprincipled alliance
Date: 18-12-1997 :: Pg: 12 ::
Col: a
THE AIADMK LEADER, Ms.
Jayalalitha's decision to align
with the BJP for the forthcoming
Lok Sabha poll in Tamil Nadu,
dictated evidently by narrow
political calculations, is plain
opportunism, indicating as it does
a willingness to sacrifice basic
principles for short term ends...
Ms. Jayalalitha, who is seeking to
re-establish herself politically
after the humiliating defeat her
party suffered at the polls 18
months ago, sees in the coming
Lok Sabha elections a major
opportunity. The sort of partners
she has lined up for the AIADMK
tells its own tale...
The
AIADMK's alliance with the BJP
is bound to change the internal
dynamics of that communal
harmony, for the worse.
Abhijit Mitra
Long time no see, nt!
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>[Everyone salutes the rising sun]. That is the real reason why AIADMK chose to
>align with BJP.
Let me speculate on that, if I may. I think the real reason that particular
alliance happened is due to the fact that BOTH the BJP and the All India Anna
DMK need boosts; the BJP due to the fact that its a non-entity in much of TN,
and the AIADMK due to the well known shenanigans of Jayalalitha.
Quite frankly, Jayalalitha has been *proven* to be a thief, as such, it is
WRONG for the BJP to get into a gathbandhan with her.
>Just today, some Christian orgs have said as to how the Indian Christian
>should vote. And the Commies have praised that anu_shansaa of these padrees.
The Indian communist is a hypocrite! But then again, judging from the BJPs
recent actions, so is it. So see how it all evens out?
None of these parties should be judged based on idealogy anymore, since none of
them pay any heed to it whatsoever. Even if I supported the idealogy that the
BJP pretends to represent, I would not support the BJP itself, and the same
goes for the COmmunists vis a vis communism.
>On another account,the commies were **desperately** trying to woo the IUML in
>LDF in Kerala [They failed.]. So much for **secularism**.
Didn't the CPM in Kerala denounce these groups?
>And then there is this Comrade Surjeet, who was actually advocating the
>dismissal of UP govt and pandered the ilk of Mulayam and Laloo to contain the
>"communal forces".
Oh yeah, hire a gunda to take a hit on a chor pandit. Typically INDIAN, wouldnt
you say?
>I am still waiting for the day when the "progressive" forces atleast on the
>internet, go around campaigning say against the reception plans of the visit
>of a Laloo or a Mulayam upon their visits to the USA.
Why them, Nachiketa? If Laloo or even Kesri comes to the USA, you can arrange
a petition and I can get you ATLEAST 50 signatures on my own. Rutgers is full
of good Hindus who will not hesitate to be heard!
>Given the fanatic attitudes and attacks of anti BJP forces...
Given the fanatic attitudes of anti BJP forces, it seems quite hypocritical for
them to accuse the BJP of fanaticism.
>I feel that the BJP's attempts to align with AIADMK are appropriate.
I disagree. The BJP shouldve made a pact with the AIADMK on the condition that
it get rid of Jayalalitha!
-A.M.
Pran Lal
>BJP and SS, BJP and BSP, BJP and the Akalis, BJP and Mamata Congress (in
>Bengal), BJP and Jayalalitha. Talk about opportunism! And this is the
>so-called "party of difference"!
>
>This also tells us how desparate BJP is this time to win the elections.
>They would go to ANY lengths.
>
Partha babu:
Chadhtey sooraj ko sab salaam kartey hain.
[Everyone salutes the rising sun].
That is the real reason why AIADMK chose to align with BJP.
As regards your ponderings about **morality**, look into the
girebaan of those whom you hold dear. Just today, some
Christian orgs have said as to how the Indian Christian should
vote [aka as fatwa in Islamic world]. And the Commies have
praised that anu_shansaa of these padrees. On another account,
the commies were **desperately** trying to woo the IUML
in LDF in Kerala [They failed.]. So much for **secularism**.
And then there is this Comrade Surjeet, who was actually advocating the
dismissal of UP govt and pandered the ilk of
Mulayam and Laloo to contain the "communal forces". So
much for *morality*. I am still waiting for the day when the
"progressive" forces atleast on the internet, go around
campaigning say against the reception plans of the visit of a Laloo
or a Mulayam upon their visits to the USA. After all you guys
[including the "reasonable" Sayan] did sign petition opposing
the reception of ABV by the Asiatic Society.
Given the fanatic attitudes and attacks of anti BJP forces, I feel
that the BJP's attempts to align with AIADMK are appropriate.
Of course such pacts give you sleepless night, but then the
ability to provide Shri Partha Banerjeen a few sleepless nights
should not be taken as the metric of someone's low moral stds.
Shubha ratri.
nachiketa
Pran Lal
>BJP and SS, BJP and BSP, BJP and the Akalis, BJP and Mamata Congress (in
>Bengal), BJP and Jayalalitha. Talk about opportunism! And this is the
>so-called "party of difference"!
>
>This also tells us how desparate BJP is this time to win the elections.
>They would go to ANY lengths.
>
>Here is something from The Hindu.
>
>
> An unprincipled alliance
>
> Date: 18-12-1997 :: Pg: 12 ::
> Col: a
Something I forgot to add here. Please do not refer to The
Hindu to prove someone's immorality. This is one newspaper
which is run by a commie, a goon, who on record has said
that truths should be "manufactured" if that is what it takes to
contain the "sampradaayik shaktiyaan". In plainspeak, N. Ram
argued that lying by journalists is ok, as long as it helped to contain
the BJP. After Goebbels, perhaps N. Ram was the most candid
guy in this regard.
nachiketa
Supratik Das
On 18 Dec 1997, Abhijit Mitra wrote:
> >I feel that the BJP's attempts to align with AIADMK are appropriate.
> I disagree. The BJP shouldve made a pact with the AIADMK on the condition that
> it get rid of Jayalalitha!
I agree with Abhijit. I don't think this alliance is good becoz in the
long run the corrupt Jayalalitha will extract a price for the alliance. It
is a wrong move.
ss...@lehigh.edu
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.971219205422.28299E-100000@post>, Supratik Das <das@ae
Ditto!
A new scientific truth does not truimph by convincing its opponents and making
them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new
generation grows up that is familiar with it.- Max Planck.
----------------------------------------------------!---------------------------
Sambit K. Saha, Ph.D !
Display Research Laboratory !Apt 202, 411 Webster Str
Sherman Fairchild Center for Solid State Studies !Bethlehem, PA 18015.
Pran Lal
AM wrote:
>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>
>>[Everyone salutes the rising sun]. That is the real reason why AIADMK chose
>to
>>align with BJP.
>
>Let me speculate on that, if I may. I think the real reason that particular
>alliance happened is due to the fact that BOTH the BJP and the All India Anna
>DMK need boosts; the BJP due to the fact that its a non-entity in much of TN,
>and the AIADMK due to the well known shenanigans of Jayalalitha.
Yes.
>Quite frankly, Jayalalitha has been *proven* to be a thief, as such, it is
>WRONG for the BJP to get into a gathbandhan with her.
I am quite convinced that she is indeed a thief. Although it perhaps
is not proven yet. But then, right now, there seems to be no way
out of the present impasse other than aligning with the AIADMK
led by Jayalalitha. Given time and chance, if I were at the helm
of affairs of the BJP, I would do the same [align with AIADMK]
and later dump it at an opportune time.
>>Just today, some Christian orgs have said as to how the Indian Christian
>>should vote. And the Commies have praised that anu_shansaa of these padrees.
>
>The Indian communist is a hypocrite! But then again, judging from the BJPs
>recent actions, so is it. So see how it all evens out?
Mind your words. You used the word "recent". Now given that
can you compare, say the legacy of 50 yrs of communist flip flops
with the recent AIADMK episode. Also, the commies were never
isolated and fanatically opposed in India, as is being done to the
BJP. Rather the commie goons were elevated to pious positions
and were made to issue pompous stmts. And yet they, on each
occasion proved that their loyalties lay somewhere else, and
indulged in hypocrisy. And now compare them with the BJP. Whenever
they have tried to form a goverments for instance, serious
efforts and possibly unconstitutional means were used to throw
them out of power. The recent failed efforts to dissolve the UP
Vidhan Sabha and the earlier successful attempts to instigate the
rebellion in Gujrat bear testimony to my allegations.
Given all this, I think it is unreasonable to expect BJP to deliver the moon,
while the others are happily delivering sewage water on a pretty
consistent basis.
>None of these parties should be judged based on idealogy anymore, since none
>of
>them pay any heed to it whatsoever. Even if I supported the idealogy that the
>BJP pretends to represent, I would not support the BJP itself, and the same
>goes for the COmmunists vis a vis communism.
That is your choice.
>>On another account,the commies were **desperately** trying to woo the IUML
>in
>>LDF in Kerala [They failed.]. So much for **secularism**.
>
>Didn't the CPM in Kerala denounce these groups?
ONly after it failed to align with them. Akin to the recent denunciations
of the AIADMK by the Congress. Also the Commies on previous
occasion have actually aligned with the IUML.
>>And then there is this Comrade Surjeet, who was actually advocating the
>>dismissal of UP govt and pandered the ilk of Mulayam and Laloo to contain
>the
>>"communal forces".
>
>Oh yeah, hire a gunda to take a hit on a chor pandit. Typically INDIAN,
>wouldnt you say?
There is difference. People like Laloo and Mulayam cannot be hired.
In fact they are the ones in the UF and Secular Front, who are actually
calling the shots. That is what happens when the people who do the
hiring have no base of their own. For verification purposes, look
at how the "suave" and the "sober" and the "sophisticated" Gujral is
sucking up to Laloo.
>>I am still waiting for the day when the "progressive" forces atleast on the
>>internet, go around campaigning say against the reception plans of the visit
>
>>of a Laloo or a Mulayam upon their visits to the USA.
>
>Why them, Nachiketa? If Laloo or even Kesri comes to the USA, you can
>arrange
>a petition and I can get you ATLEAST 50 signatures on my own. Rutgers is full
My appeal was to the "progressives". I have no doubt in mind that
you would arrange the petitions I alluded to.
>of good Hindus who will not hesitate to be heard!
>
>>Given the fanatic attitudes and attacks of anti BJP forces...
>
>Given the fanatic attitudes of anti BJP forces, it seems quite hypocritical
>for
>them to accuse the BJP of fanaticism.
That once again requires proof. The proof on the other side does
indeed exist. For instance look at the recent failed attempt to dissolve
the UP Vidhan Sabha.
>>I feel that the BJP's attempts to align with AIADMK are appropriate.
>
>I disagree. The BJP shouldve made a pact with the AIADMK on the condition
>that
>it get rid of Jayalalitha!
Once again, I will have to repeat the lines:
aankha mein ho swarga lekin
paon prithvi par tikey ho.
[Let me dream of the heavens.
But let my feet be resting on the ground too.]
nachiketa
Abhijit Mitra
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>I am quite convinced that she is indeed a thief. Although it perhaps
>is not proven yet.
It has been proven in a court of law, where she was convicted. But for some
reason, shes not in jail anymore - I can only guess shes paid someone off.
>But then, right now, there seems to be no way out of the present impasse other
>than aligning with the AIADMK led by Jayalalitha.
Thats a mentality induced by the assumption that the BJP can not go it alone,
if not now, then in the future, on its own accord. It perhaps stems from the
BJPs own recognition that it does not fully represent Tamil Nadu - nor is it
capable of doing so.
>Given time and chance, if I were at the helm of affairs of the BJP, I would do
>the same [align with AIADMK] and later dump it at an opportune time.
You mean you'd date Jaya Ji and then dump her? Heart-breaker! :)
>Now given that can you compare, say the legacy of 50 yrs of communist flip
>flops with the recent AIADMK episode.
Perhaps not. The socialists in India have had 5 decades to weave their web of
treachery and deciet, while the BJP has been doing the same for less than one
decade. So yes, you are right, the absolute amount of deciet and treachery is
still more when you look at the socialists. But tell me this - knowing that the
BJP is, for all purposes, emulating the previous rulers of India (the congress)
, can you honestly say that 5 decades from the day they come into power (if
they do), they will be very different?
>Given all this, I think it is unreasonable to expect BJP to deliver the moon,
>while the others are happily delivering sewage water on a pretty consistent
>basis.
It is never unreasonable to expect anyone to deliver the moon. No matter how
much "sewer water" we get delivered to our doorsteps, we must never stop
expecting the moon. Lowered expectations are why our democracy is in the state
it is in.
(that reminds me of the skit saturday night live does, called "Lowered
Expectations".. is it just me, or is that really funny?)
>That once again requires proof.
I have heard grassroots leaders of the BJP leaders speak many times when I was
in India - they are fanatics, each and every one of them. The national leaders
are more suave and sophisticated and slick; dont let that fool you.
Pran Lal
Abhijit wrote:
>pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>
>>But then, right now, there seems to be no way out of the present impasse
>other
>>than aligning with the AIADMK led by Jayalalitha.
>
>Thats a mentality induced by the assumption that the BJP can not go it alone,
>if not now, then in the future, on its own accord. It perhaps stems from the
>BJPs own recognition that it does not fully represent Tamil Nadu - nor is it
>capable of doing so.
There is quite a bit of truth in that "assumption". After all, the
presence of BJP in TN, WB, Kerala, is close to zero. It has
a little more than negligible presence in AP. I think that BJP's
strivings to ally with AIADMK is reflective of this realization.
However, I would also argue that in the long run it would be worthwhile to
have BJP some sort of a base in TN on its own.
But then having said that, I also do realize that developing a base
in an unchartered area is easier said than done. For that to happen
you need to have local people talking in local langs, metaphors
and idioms. BJP, as of now, clearly does not have such people.
>
>>Now given that can you compare, say the legacy of 50 yrs of communist flip
>>flops with the recent AIADMK episode.
>
>Perhaps not. The socialists in India have had 5 decades to weave their web of
>treachery and deciet, while the BJP has been doing the same for less than one
>decade
I think that we have to be a little more cautious here. The word
"socialists" would include all sorts of people. Including commies.
But then there were also socialists like Lohia, JP, Charan Singh
with impeccable credentials. If tomorrow India was run by these
people, I would be more than happy. However, once the commies
have a major say, then I start getting suspicious. These guys
sabotaged the freedom movements, and later in a variety of
ways supported Russians and the Chinese. Now that is treachery.
I do not think that BJP has done that so far. So I will not label them
treacherous.
. So yes, you are right, the absolute amount of deciet and treachery is
>still more when you look at the socialists. But tell me this - knowing that
>the
>BJP is, for all purposes, emulating the previous rulers of India (the
>congress)
>, can you honestly say that 5 decades from the day they come into power (if
>they do), they will be very different?
WHo knows. Right now, it is only the BJP which has a sane and honest
leadership at its top level. It will be foolish to not use their
services for the betterment of India. Also, if you keep on
marginalizing them, what eventually might happen is that you
turn even BJP into a party led by rogues.
COming back to your question about next 50 yrs. I believe that
we should slowly try to promote people who have character
in ALL parties. Or else ALL parties will be overrun by the ilk of
Mulayam. That, as far as I know, has already happened in all the
parties except the BJP.
>>Given all this, I think it is unreasonable to expect BJP to deliver the
>moon,
>>while the others are happily delivering sewage water on a pretty consistent
>
>>basis.
>
>It is never unreasonable to expect anyone to deliver the moon. No matter how
>much "sewer water" we get delivered to our doorsteps, we must never stop
>expecting the moon. Lowered expectations are why our democracy is in the
>state
>it is in.
You have a point there. But then I think I also have a point
when I talked about moon and sewage water.
>(that reminds me of the skit saturday night live does, called "Lowered
>Expectations".. is it just me, or is that really funny?)
>
>>That once again requires proof.
>
>I have heard grassroots leaders of the BJP leaders speak many times when I
>was
>in India - they are fanatics, each and every one of them. The national
>leaders
>are more suave and sophisticated and slick; dont let that fool you.
Once again, I would rather judge on the basis of the karmas
of the BJP govts. [in UP, Raj, Mah, Delhi] and the manifesto
of the party rather than anecdotal evidence. For instance
read about the handling of recent BKU agitation by Kalyan
Singh.
nachiketa
Abhijit Mitra
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>There is quite a bit of truth in that "assumption". After all, the presence of
>BJP in TN, WB, Kerala, is close to zero. It has a little more than negligible
>presence in AP. I think that BJP's strivings to ally with AIADMK is reflective
>of this realization.
Yes, I realize that. It IS important for the BJP, if it is to make a dent in
areas where it has not been able to do so uptil now, to make local allies, and
as you said, speak in "local languages" using local metaphors. However, in
choosing such an ally, should the BJP not, for its own sake, exercise a little
more discretion than it obviously has exercised by choosing the AIADMK as its
partner?
>However, I would also argue that in the long run it would be worthwhile to
>have BJP some sort of a base in TN on its own.
For the BJP, yes. For the BJP, it is extremely important to have an independent
existence on its own everywhere and not be tied to someone else. In that sense,
its tie-up with the Shiv Sena in Maharashtra, with the Akalis in Punjab, and
the new JD in Orissa, should all be treated by the BJP leadership as ad hoc
arrangements, to be chucked as soon as they can stand on their own.
>The word "socialists" would include all sorts of people. Including commies.
I used the word "socialist" for a very good reason - you said that these
"leftists" are everywhere, I assumed you were referring to the traditionally
socialist Indian leaders who have ruled India for 5 decades and taken over the
media, etc. All those accusations you make so often about commies actually work
for the socialists like Nehru, et al. The communist presence in India is
negligible - its the socialist-leftists that are the ones that have done all
the damage.
>But then there were also socialists like Lohia, JP, Charan Singh with
>impeccable credentials.
Perhaps. But by and large, socialism has screwed India up well.
>However, once the commies have a major say, then I start getting suspicious.
>These guys sabotaged the freedom movements, and later in a variety of ways
>supported Russians and the Chinese. Now that is treachery.
Yes, it is. But it was the socialists who ruled India for so long, not the
communists. As for having lots of influence, that too, was somethign the
socialists have always had, not the communists. The communists have been
treacherous, no doubt, but irrelevantly so. It has been the socialism that our
leaders were so endeared to that has brought us to this mess. The BJP, with its
current emphasis on that long-forgotten and thrown-into-the-dustbin idealogy
called "swadeshi", is only convincing me even more than they are nothing more
than a soon-to-be Congress.
>I do not think that BJP has done that so far. So I will not label them
>treacherous.
But they are emulating those who have been treacherous.
>WHo knows. Right now, it is only the BJP which has a sane and honest
>leadership at its top level.
So does a large section of the UF. Gujral, Chidambaram, Basu, et al., are quite
competent and sane. As for honest, I dont believe anyone is.
The UFs biggest challenge will be to ensure the domination of these 'sane'
elements over the 'in-sane' elements represented by Mulayam and Laloo.
The BJP, by the way, has its share of 'in-sane' elements too - the names start
from that Ritwambhara lady and go on and on...
>It will be foolish to not use their services for the betterment of India.
Not just them - good people in all parties across the board.
>Also, if you keep on marginalizing them, what eventually might happen is that
>you turn even BJP into a party led by rogues.
I assume that is an argument of support for the BJP. It can be used as an
argument to support the UF, also. After all, it too has 'sane' and 'in-sane'
elements in it, with the 'in-sane' currently having the upper hand, thus making
it imperative that the 'sane' be shown support or else the UF may turn into a
'party led by rogues' for GOOD.
>I believe that we should slowly try to promote people who have character in
>ALL parties. Or else ALL parties will be overrun by the ilk of Mulayam.
>That, as far as I know, has already happened in all the parties except the
>BJP.
I agree. The EC can do something about this if it so pleases - I only wish they
made Seshan Prime Minister, so what if hes mentally a little BONKERS, the mans
got chutzpah, and thats what we need!
But I dont agree that it has 'already happened' - I believe the UF and Congress
can still be salvaged.
>You have a point there. But then I think I also have a point when I talked
>about moon and sewage water.
Oh, we all have points...
>Once again, I would rather judge on the basis of the karmas of the BJP govts.
>[in UP, Raj, Mah, Delhi] and the manifesto of the party rather than anecdotal
>evidence.
Their record in governance has been laudable - their record when NOT in
governance has been despicable. Which one do you want to judge them by?
>For instance read about the handling of recent BKU agitation by Kalyan
>Singh.
I did - it fits my above characterization. That is, it is laudable.
-A.M.
Supratik Das
On 20 Dec 1997, Pran Lal wrote:
> There is quite a bit of truth in that "assumption". After all, the
> presence of BJP in TN, WB, Kerala, is close to zero. It has
> a little more than negligible presence in AP. I think that BJP's
> strivings to ally with AIADMK is reflective of this realization.
In that case it is not a good realization. I don't see how going along
with the corrupt expands voter base unless the voter is supposed to be an
idiot. The BJP can gain at least 1-2 seat in TN but will leave a lot of
educated Indians disgusted with the alliance with the corrupt Jayalalitha.
Besides alliance with Jayalalitha will not significantly alter its
prospects except to give others a handle to beat it with. The alliance e.g
with BJD is pragmatic becoz Navin is young and untested. You may argue
that the alliance with AIADMK will destroy the Congress in TN which is
good. What is worrisome is when Jayalalitha becomes a burden instead of a
boon.
Also, the way various defectors are entering the BJP I wonder whether it
will soon not be run by Congressis. I am sure BJP supporters wouldn't like
a BJP run by Congressis and Janata types. That will be the end of whatever
difference the BJP may stand for. Today even a Yaswant Sinha (ex-VP
Singh man) is president of Bihar BJP. Tommorow will Mulayam Singh Yadav
become president of BJP?? An extreme example but I am sure the BJP
supporters wouldn't like the idea. I hope that in this hurry for power the
main focus is not getting lost. Otherwise the BJP will emulate the CPI-M
in Bengal - with power but lost focus. So if the BJP doesn't take care of
who it admits into its party it will gain the worst of Congressi behaviour
and loose the best of BJP behaviour.
Supratik
Pran Lal
>On 20 Dec 1997, Pran Lal wrote:
>
>> There is quite a bit of truth in that "assumption". After all, the
>> presence of BJP in TN, WB, Kerala, is close to zero. It has
>> a little more than negligible presence in AP. I think that BJP's
>> strivings to ally with AIADMK is reflective of this realization.
>
>
>In that case it is not a good realization. I don't see how going along
>with the corrupt expands voter base unless the voter is supposed to be an
>idiot. The BJP can gain at least 1-2 seat in TN but will leave a lot of
>educated Indians disgusted with the alliance with the corrupt Jayalalitha.
>Besides alliance with Jayalalitha will not significantly alter its
>prospects except to give others a handle to beat it with. The alliance e.g
>with BJD is pragmatic becoz Navin is young and untested. You may argue
>that the alliance with AIADMK will destroy the Congress in TN which is
>good. What is worrisome is when Jayalalitha becomes a burden instead of a
>boon.
Actually, I feel that the BJP (thru its allies) will get approx 10-12
seats due to this alignment. A significant no.
As regards Jayalalitha being a burden, that is true. And that is why,
I feel that such alliances should be made with great care, and gotten
rid of as soon AS POSSIBLE.
>Also, the way various defectors are entering the BJP I wonder whether it
>will soon not be run by Congressis. I am sure BJP supporters wouldn't like
>a BJP run by Congressis and Janata types. That will be the end of whatever
>difference the BJP may stand for. Today even a Yaswant Sinha (ex-VP
>Singh man) is president of Bihar BJP.
I realize the significance of your point. But right now, frankly, I am prepared
to shut my eyes off. For the simple reason relating to the
urgency of the situation. Also I feel that the insurance against this
sort of a situation can be provided by the active involvement and
moderation conducted by RSS people.
nachiketa
Supratik Das
On 23 Dec 1997, Pran Lal wrote:
> I realize the significance of your point. But right now, frankly, I am prepared
> to shut my eyes off. For the simple reason relating to the
> urgency of the situation. Also I feel that the insurance against this
> sort of a situation can be provided by the active involvement and
> moderation conducted by RSS people.
Shutting eyes off never solved a problem. If that were so, the Gujrat
fiasco would never have happened. Obviously, the problem was created by
people with little ideological moorings and a lot of ambition and the
organization couldn't solve it. It will not be able to solve it in this
case too. Things will turn dangerous when unwanted people reach the higher
echeleons of the power structure. They will destroy everything from the
top - like say Gorbachov.
Pran Lal
moorings of anyone. ShankerSingh Vaghela was a hard core
RSS person. And it was that person that was responsible for the
fiasco. The Gujarat fiasco merely proves that you have to
be eternally watchful of the changing scenarios and changing
nature of your own people.
Anyway, I in general agree with this post of yours. There is
nothing in your post, for me atleast, to disagree about.
nachiketa
Supratik Das
Nachiketa
The BJP is just another political party without the RSS or discipline. If
a hardcore like Vaghela can ditch the party then anyone can. Here is a
pointer to what I was talking about - taken from India Today by the well
known pro-Sangh Parivarcommentator Swapan Dasgupta.
---------------------------------------------------
BY SWAPAN DASGUPTA
Party without a Difference
Without its moral influence, the
BJP is nothing.
Many years ago, when saffron was the colour of
political innocence, the BJP was a strange animal.
Blessed with leaders whose reputations far exceeded
the electoral influence of the party, the BJP
was essentially a grouping of upright individuals
who were misfits in the hurly-burly of public life.
To the fanatical ideologues of the "secular" order,
the BJP was an out-and-out fascist organisation.
In countless mohallas of northern and western India,
however, the local Sangh representative was
the pillar of middle-class respectability. He may
not have won an assembly seat and, indeed, had
difficulty retaining his deposit, but he was the
person the locality looked up to in times of stress,
conflict and disaster. The BJP was less a political
party and more a collection of boy scouts who
loved doing a good turn without expecting returns.
That was the past -- an honourable past that enabled
Atal Bihari Vajpayee and L.K. Advani to
successfully drive home the message that this was a
"party with a difference". That is why when
Advani spoke of pseudo-secularism and the double
standards of Nehruvian consensus, he found a
receptive audience. Those who voted for the BJP in
droves in 1989, 1991 and 1996 did not do so
because they wanted a Hindu theocratic state. Apart
from other concerns, they were motivated by a
desire to usher in a wholesome alternative to the
Congress. No wonder there was considerable
disorientation in the saffron ranks when Advani was
charged with receiving bribes in the Jain
hawala case. To middle India -- the social backbone
of the BJP -- politics without ethics is
meaningless.
Of course, the BJP has paid a heavy price for being
excessively goody-goody. The sight of BJP
leaders trying desperately to secure additional
support for Vajpayee to remain prime minister in May
1996 was, to say the least, funny. They were
completely clueless in a game involving bluff, deceit
and undercover arrangements.
All that too seems to have been in the past. In its
desperation to prove that it does not lack a killer
instinct, the BJP has clearly decided to give up all
scruples and join the rest of the political class
with gusto. At one level, Kalyan Singh's ability to
split the Congress, Janata Dal and the Bahujan
Samaj Party in Uttar Pradesh was all about the BJP
refusing to take things lying down. Why, many
of the party's supporters asked belligerently,
should we always be at the receiving end of
unprincipled deals? Since politics is ultimately
about winning power and retaining it, that seems a
fair question. However, there is a larger question
involved. To what extent must the BJP abandon
its "party with a difference" tag? For the BJP, it
is undoubtedly important to demonstrate that its
pariah status is contrived and lacking in substance.
Is fielding notorious criminals in the Legislative
Council polls in Uttar Pradesh and inducting
bigamists an appropriate way of doing it? In 1991, the
BJP stole the moral thunder by recruiting scores of
distinguished notables. This year, with the
party nearer to power than it ever was, the quality
of newcomers is distinctly unappetising.
This is not to suggest that the BJP has shed all its
idealism. Yet, the leadership is testing the
patience of its supporters. Even as Vajpayee and
Advani win new allies, they must reassure the
BJP's core constituency in middle India that there
is a lakshman rekha that will not be crossed. The
voters of India still have the ability to
distinguish between right and wrong.
Siddhartha Duttagupta
Continuing our tribute series this time to Swami Pran Lal who is our
BJP liason on scb;))
But then who am I to say things when the boss himself has spoken so
much, so many times.
regards, siddhartha
On 19 Dec 1997 03:19:59 GMT, pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) wrote:
>Given the fanatic attitudes and attacks of anti BJP forces, I feel
>that the BJP's attempts to align with AIADMK are appropriate.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Of course such pacts give you sleepless night, but then the
>ability to provide Shri Partha Banerjeen a few sleepless nights
>should not be taken as the metric of someone's low moral stds.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
PS An interesting TOI article that came out today at :
http://www.timesofindia.com/today/30home6.htm
....................................................
Jaya's plea on bank accounts dismissed
CHENNAI: A special judge, trying corruption cases, on Monday dismissed
a petition filed by former Tamil Nadu chief minister J
Jayalalitha,seeking to defreeze her bank accounts to the tune of Rs
3.42 crore. Her various accounts, in banks and non banking financial
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
institutions, had been frozen in connection with the case against her
relating to amassing of wealth to the tune of Rs 66.65 crore.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
PPS wonder how much of that 3.42 crores would have flowed into US
banks?;)))
Pran Lal
Siddhartha wrote:
>Continuing our tribute series this time to Swami Pran Lal who is our
>BJP liason on scb;))
>
>But then who am I to say things when the boss himself has spoken so
>much, so many times.
Poor sense of humor, may I say ;-)
>regards, siddhartha
>
>
>On 19 Dec 1997 03:19:59 GMT, pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) wrote:
>>Given the fanatic attitudes and attacks of anti BJP forces, I feel
>>that the BJP's attempts to align with AIADMK are appropriate.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Of course such pacts give you sleepless night, but then the
>>ability to provide Shri Partha Banerjeen a few sleepless nights
>>should not be taken as the metric of someone's low moral stds.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>PS An interesting TOI article that came out today at :
>http://www.timesofindia.com/today/30home6.htm
>....................................................
>Jaya's plea on bank accounts dismissed
>
>CHENNAI: A special judge, trying corruption cases, on Monday dismissed
>a petition filed by former Tamil Nadu chief minister J
>Jayalalitha,seeking to defreeze her bank accounts to the tune of Rs
>3.42 crore. Her various accounts, in banks and non banking financial
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> institutions, had been frozen in connection with the case against her
>relating to amassing of wealth to the tune of Rs 66.65 crore.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>PPS wonder how much of that 3.42 crores would have flowed into US
>banks?;)))
And your point is!!!
Did I ever say that Amma Jayalalitha is not corrupt.
So, what is your point.
Or is it that you are complementing your poor sense of
humor with poor writing skills.
nachiketa
sdu...@bsu.idbsu.edu
In article <19971230224...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) wrote:
> >On 19 Dec 1997 03:19:59 GMT, pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) wrote:
> >>Given the fanatic attitudes and attacks of anti BJP forces, I feel
> >>that the BJP's attempts to align with AIADMK are appropriate.
> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>Of course such pacts give you sleepless night, but then the
> >>ability to provide Shri Partha Banerjeen a few sleepless nights
> >>should not be taken as the metric of someone's low moral stds.
> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >CHENNAI: A special judge, trying corruption cases, on Monday dismissed
> >a petition filed by former Tamil Nadu chief minister J
> >Jayalalitha,seeking to defreeze her bank accounts to the tune of Rs
> >3.42 crore. Her various accounts, in banks and non banking financial
> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > institutions, had been frozen in connection with the case against her
> >relating to amassing of wealth to the tune of Rs 66.65 crore.
> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >PPS wonder how much of that 3.42 crores would have flowed into US
> >banks?;)))
>
> And your point is!!!
Heil Pran,
Let's see if we can make this simple.
Stealing 60 crores from the people is anti-national (I am sure that not
even you would argue that she took an oath to steal), hence BJP's alliance
with Jaya is opportunistic and self-serving. Hmmm. what about the
pot calling something about leftists?;)))
> Or is it that you are complementing your poor sense of
> humor with poor writing skills.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
For someone who writes "metric of one's moral standards" all I can say is
welcome to the club;))
regards, siddhartha
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Sambit Basu
Pran Lal <pra...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971230224...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Or is it that you are complementing your poor sense of
> humor with poor writing skills.
A sincere question to Nachiketa:
Have you been able to achieve so much stupidity in only one generation?
Sambit Basu
Pran Lal
A sincere answer to a sincere question.
No. I learnt it from your previous generations.
Moral: Watch your tongue or else you will be paid in the same
coin.
nachiketa
Sambit Basu
Pran Lal <pra...@aol.com> wrote in article
> > Have you been able to achieve so much stupidity in only one generation?
>
> No. I learnt it from your previous generations.
So, at least you know that you are "the accumulation of stupidity of
generations personified"!
OK, what about your heap of ignorance? Is it also the accumulation of
generations?
Sambit Basu
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On 31 Dec 1997 21:58:45 GMT, "Sambit Basu" <sam...@agniroth.com>
wrote:
>>Pran Lal <pra...@aol.com> wrote in article
>> No. I learnt it from your previous generations.
> So, at least you know that you are "the accumulation of stupidity of
> generations personified"!
>
> OK, what about your heap of ignorance? Is it also the accumulation of
> generations?
Sambit, I hearby brand you anti-national and declare you ineligible
for the post of the Prime Minister of India.
regards, siddhartha
PS Fuhrer Pran has said he will consider pardoning you if you can
persuade that judge in Chennai to release the 3.42 crores. Its badly
needed to buy votes.
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On 31 Dec 1997 21:33:18 GMT, pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) wrote:
> Pran Lal's credibility is a non-issue.
>>regards, siddhartha
>
>Your excellence is using lies to strengthen your arguments
>has ceased to amaze me.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is only one side of the coin my friend.
The other side is that your excellence in arguing never ceaes
to amuse me.
So keep the hot air coming...for my sake.
regards, siddhartha
Pran Lal
Sambit Babu:
>Pran Lal <pra...@aol.com> wrote in article
>
>> > Have you been able to achieve so much stupidity in only one generation?
>>
>> No. I learnt it from your previous generations.
>
>
> So, at least you know that you are "the accumulation of stupidity of
> generations personified"!
>
> OK, what about your heap of ignorance? Is it also the accumulation of
> generations?
Sambit babu:
If you are proposing to agree with me in full, [only on this issue]
then let us for the record jointly state that the source of my monumental
stupidity lies in the influence of YOUR previous generations. [The call to
previous generations, was made by you in the first place].
For if we were to agree on this, then I will be affirming my
ignorance, and you will be acknowledging the foolishness
of your previous generations. It surely will be a win-win
situation.
What do you say?
nachiketa
Sambit Basu
Pran Lal <pra...@aol.com> wrote:
> If you are proposing to agree with me in full, [only on this issue]
> then let us for the record jointly state that the source of my monumental
> stupidity lies in the influence of YOUR previous generations.
chhhk, chhhk, chhhk...
> [The call to
> previous generations, was made by you in the first place].
Didn't they say that lying pathologically is a genetic disorder?
Sambit
Abhijit Mitra
I am so sick of this Sambit Basus posts... beta tipponi mare shudu, I've never
seen him say anything constructive... as for Pran, one may agree or disagree
with him, but atleast hes opinionated and has reasons for having those opinions
which he is not in the least bit afraid of talking about... unlike Sambit...
Pran Lal
Don't know about that. But it certainly an acquired trait among
the commies.
nachiketa
Sambit Basu
Abhijit Mitra <mi...@remus.rutgers.edu> wrote:
> I am so sick of this Sambit Basus posts... beta tipponi mare shudu, I've
never
> seen him say anything constructive...
Alas! Even then you don't stop posting your half/un-educated articles
on Bengali culture with a pinch of know-it-all attitude. How much
sickness do you need more, Abhijit.
Sambit Basu
Sambit Basu
Pran Lal <pra...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980102012...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> > Didn't they say that lying pathologically is a genetic disorder?
>
> Don't know about that. But it certainly an acquired trait among
> the commies.
So?
Sambit Basu
Srabani Banerjee
Abhijit Mitra wrote:
>
> I am so sick of this Sambit Basus posts... beta tipponi mare shudu, I've never
> with him, but atleast hes opinionated and has reasons for having those opinions
> which he is not in the least bit afraid of talking about... unlike Sambit...
How long have you been on this newsgroup, kid? Do you know why and how
this newsgroup was formed? (Here, I am waiting with bated breath for you
and your cheer-leaders to come up with the standard `gulli-danda'
excuse). Did you ever care to find out who were instrumental in forming
this group before putting that foot in your mouth? And, most
importantly, since you seem to be so fond of `constructive' discussion,
did you ever read the SCB charter?
SCB used to be a very different place before all your favourite scumbags
started crossposting their `opinions' here. And, quite a few old-timers
have left, sickened by their posts. Do you think anybody should care
what you get sick of? You, at least, have the advantage of having, as
your opponents, rather decent people whose sincere involvement with this
bengali newsgroup was never in doubt.
Srabani
Arindam
Srabani writes:
> since you seem to be so fond of `constructive' discussion,
>did you ever read the SCB
Srabani'r lekhata porar pore khujepetey scb'r dhulo jomey jaowa charter-ta bar
korlam. Time it was modified.
---------------------------------begins---------------------
SCB CHARTER
Bengal is located in the eastern part of the Indian subcontinent.
Before the independence and subsequent partitioning of the British
colony of India into India and Pakistan in 1947, Bengal was a single
province; a political boundary was thereafter created between West
Bengal and East Pakistan. In 1971, East Pakistan gained independence
and the nation of Bangladesh was created. In addition, a majority of
the people of the Indian state of Tripura are Bengalis. Further,
there is a sizable expatriate Bengali population living around the
world.
Bengalis are proud of a rich tradition of intellectual pursuits and
cultural appreciation. Intellectual advancements through vigorous
discussions and assimilation of diverse opinions have always been part
of the social and cultural development process for Bengalis. Today,
there are several Bengalis on the USENET, participating in discussions
in several newsgroups. However, till now there has not been a single
USENET forum dedicated solely for discussing the Bengali
socio-cultural life, regardless of the national identity of the target
audience.
Soc.culture.bangladesh, a newsgroup for and by the citizens of the
country with the single largest Bengali population in the world, is
inappropriate, since it's primary focus is on issues specific to
Bangladesh, which generates a feeling of alienation among Indian
Bengalis, particularly in view of existing political differences
between New Delhi and Dhaka.
Bengalis also have a very bright cultural heritage to be proud of.
This includes eminent poets like Rabindranath Tagore, a Nobel
laureate, internationally acclaimed movie directors like Satyajit Ray,
gifted musicians such as Pandit Rabi Shankar, Pandit Nikhil Banerjee
and Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, noted economists such as Amartya Sen and
Mohammed Yunus, chess Grand masters like Niaz Morshed and Dibyendu Barua
and famous architects such as Dr. F. R. Khan, designer of the Sears Tower.
Indian Bengalis form a significant large minority among the global
Bengali population. While the general practice for Indian Bengalis in
past has been to use the forum soc.culture.indian for discussions
about their cultural heritage, they are forced to sort through
hundreds of articles irrelevant to Bengali language and culture.
Also, the use of the Bengali language in posts, often indispensable in
a socio-cultural discussion, has sometimes frustrated the non-Bengali
readers of soc.culture.indian for understandable reasons.
In view of that, we propose a new USENET forum devoted solely to
discussions about the social and cultural aspects of the Bengali life,
regardless of nationality. While the need for this is voiced
primarily by Indian Bengalis, it's target audience is invited from all
nationalities, with the Bengali identity as the common factor. The
proposed name of this forum is soc.culture.bengali.
Proposed Charter
================
The target audience for the group will be the Bengali population
living all over the world and not necessarily in the countries of
India and Bangladesh, to discuss various socio-cultural aspects of the
Bengali life.
This includes but is not limited to the following:
- Bengali literature
- Bengali music, classical, semi-classical, popular and folk
- Bengali drama, both commercial and group theatres
- Bengali movies, both art and commercial
- Bengali painting
- Bengali food
- Popular Bengali sports like soccer
- Rural Bengal and related issues
- Bengali folk arts including handicrafts
- History of Bengal
- Social life of the Bengalis, traditions and customs
The discussion of political issues that are not of primary interest to
the Bengali culture, and relates to Bengalis only as a part of a
separate identity viz. their national one, is discouraged in the
forum, and should take place in soc.culture.indian,
soc.culture.bangladesh and/or other relevant forums. Another issue of
concern is religion. In view of the diverse spectrum of religions
followed by Bengalis, the target audience of the forum are expected to
be mutually respectful towards each others religious feelings and in
general try to avoid controversial statements that might hurt the
religious feelings of a particular section of the audience.
--
-----------------------ends---------------------
Taken from Anindyo's post to a soul called "Babu Rambadran"
Arindam
Soumitra Bose
Aha ha ha !!! Sambit seshe kina tumakeo Commie baniye dewoa holo???????
dekhecho banglaee holei commie !!!! Eto din bampontha r biruddhe lore
seshe kina ei shiropa jutlo ?????? Ar tate abar tumi bolechho "So?" ,
ebar to Hanuman Sena tomai Commie neta thaorabe??????
Ki birombona ????? Jat kere newoa bole kotha ?????
Pran Lal
Srabani ji:
SCB was never Sonar.Culture.Bengal. All sorts of people have
been writing on it right from day one of its inception. And some
of the (good) old timers have really not been all that good. Some
of the best examples of abusive language have come from some
of the not-so-good-old-timers. And if naming names was indeed
the issue then we could for instance check up the
archives as well as the memories of old-timers like Raghu Sheshadri
etc. who have been abused in the filthiest possible terms. Some
of that old a_bhadra_lok still hangs around in this forum. Others
have left.
Actually, the usage of abusive words has gone down over these
years. Another change, though unrelated, has been that all the
people on this forum no longer sing in the same tune.
nachiketa
Rajiv Shukla
Pran Lal wrote:
>
> SCB was never Sonar.Culture.Bengal. All sorts of people have
> been writing on it right from day one of its inception. And some
> of the (good) old timers have really not been all that good. Some
> of the best examples of abusive language have come from some
> of the not-so-good-old-timers. And if naming names was indeed
> the issue then we could for instance check up the
> archives as well as the memories of old-timers like Raghu Sheshadri
> etc. who have been abused in the filthiest possible terms. Some
> of that old a_bhadra_lok still hangs around in this forum. Others
> have left.
>
As usual you missed the point. Nobody said the old-timers were good or
anything. SCB wasn't not a propaganda machine at that time and that's
all.
I'd really like to know when and by whom Raghu Shesahdri was abused (in
the filthiest
possible terms that is) in SCB. I am as much an old-timer (if not more)
here as Mr. Sheshadri.
> Actually, the usage of abusive words has gone down over these
> years. Another change, though unrelated, has been that all the
> people on this forum no longer sing in the same tune.
Cut the bullshit. As far as I can recall, none of the old timers
threatened
people on a regular basis as is the habit of some current stalwart
SCBites.
And as for singing in the same tune, people do sing in the same tune
here these days.
The only difference is that you like the tune, that's all.
-- Rajiv
--
//My personal views only
//Rajiv Shukla
//http://members.tripod.com/~rajiv_shukla/
>
> nachiketa
Abhijit Mitra
Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>Do you know why and how this newsgroup was formed?
And back we go to that age old crap that we desiz like to pull so much - Mr.
A and Mr. B started this and you're new so how dare you disagree with the
founders?!?
Srabani Di, with all due respect, you're full of $hit if you think just
because Sambit Basu was instrumental in getting scb into existence means I dont
have the right to say what I darn well please.
>Did you ever care to find out who were instrumental in forming
>this group before putting that foot in your mouth?
Thats not relevant. Ive never seen him say *anything* that wasnt a pointless
tipponi, so I said what I did and I stand by it. You got a problem, then do
something about it - or else shut your stanky mouth.
>And, most importantly, since you seem to be so fond of `constructive'
>discussion, did you ever read the SCB charter?
I did. However, I read it *after* I joined the newsgroup and know what I saw?
That no one followed it before me anyways. Politics is discouraged, right? Well
I saw PLENTY of people talking politics here much before I ever got here. The
only difference was that they were all leftists and well, I'm not. And how DARE
I (and all my cheerleaders) intrude in the bastion of those who lick Marxs
buttcracks, right?
>SCB used to be a very different place before all your favourite scumbags
>started crossposting their `opinions' here.
I know. Which is why it had to change. Leftism in Bengal is a scourge that
*will* be eliminated, and people like me (and my cheerleaders) are only a
manifestation of that.
>And, quite a few old-timers have left, sickened by their posts.
Thats their problem. Leftists never were able to take criticism.
>Do you think anybody should care what you get sick of?
No. But I can say what I get sick of nevertheless - as can you. However, I also
have the right to not give a flying f--k about your preferences.
>You, at least, have the advantage of having, as your opponents, rather decent
>people whose sincere involvement with this bengali newsgroup was never in
>doubt.
"decent people"? Some are, yes. Many are not - many of the so-called 'decent'
people on this NG are really nothing but artifically inflated snobs - but then,
that *is* what the quintessential Bangali bhodrolok is like, right?
Abhijit Mitra
pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>And some of the (good) old timers have really not been all that good.
Absolutely. Many of the old timers were really nothing more than a buncha dhuti
clad obnoxious marxist snobs.
>Some of the best examples of abusive language have come from some
>of the not-so-good-old-timers.
You might wanna give some examples of that, these people won't get it unless
yo do.
>Another change, though unrelated, has been that all the people on this forum
>no longer sing in the same tune.
Actually, it's not as unrelated as you think. Before, this place used to be a
'forum' for agreeing with each other. Not for discussion.
Abhijit Mitra
Rajiv Shukla <rsh...@gte.com> writes:
>Nobody said the old-timers were good or anything.
Srabani Banerjee did.
>SCB wasn't not a propaganda machine at that time and that's all.
Theres still plenty of dissent now. How does that make it a propoganda machine?
As usual, Shukla Ji, you're talking straight outta yer arse...
>And as for singing in the same tune, people do sing in the same tune here
>these days. The only difference is that you like the tune, that's all.
I repeat - there's PLENTY of dissent on SCB and if you dont see it, you must be
blind.
As for liking the tune, any tune, thats our prerogative. Hey, it just hit me,
that the issue here is not propoganda at all... it's that you dont like the
tune that we play! Thats what this is all about...
Rajiv Shukla
Abhijit Mitra wrote:
>
> Rajiv Shukla <rsh...@gte.com> writes:
>
> >Nobody said the old-timers were good or anything.
>
> Srabani Banerjee did.
No. She didn't.
>
> >SCB wasn't not a propaganda machine at that time and that's all.
>
> Theres still plenty of dissent now. How does that make it a propoganda machine?
I don't get it. What's dissent got to do with propaganda machine? I mean
it's hard
to stop "du kaan kata" people like you. The effectiveness of a
propaganda machine depends on shameless, fanatic people like you. A few
dissents here and there is
nothing to you.
> As usual, Shukla Ji, you're talking straight outta yer arse...
Didn't expect this from Nachiketa's chela. I mean sitting in a glass
house
and all that.
>
>
> I repeat - there's PLENTY of dissent on SCB and if you dont see it, you must be
> blind.
There were plenty of dissents on old SCB too. So, how come people used
to sing in
the same tune then?
Rajiv Shukla
Abhijit Mitra wrote:
>
> Absolutely. Many of the old timers were really nothing more than a buncha dhuti
> clad obnoxious marxist snobs.
Yeah? How do you know?
>
> You might wanna give some examples of that, these people won't get it unless
> yo do.
Yup, let's have them here.
> Actually, it's not as unrelated as you think. Before, this place used to be a
> 'forum' for agreeing with each other. Not for discussion.
Tell us why would a bunch of people need a public forum to agree with
each other?
Perhaps you don't know that many of the old timers knew each other for a
long time
and as far as I know are still in touch with each other.
And how do you know that this forum was used for agreeing with each
other. Don't tell
me "dejanews".
Supratik Das
> > >SCB wasn't not a propaganda machine at that time and that's all.
> > Theres still plenty of dissent now. How does that make it a propoganda machine?
> I don't get it. What's dissent got to do with propaganda machine? I mean
> it's hard to stop "du kaan kata" people like you. The effectiveness of a
> propaganda machine depends on shameless, fanatic people like you. A few
> dissents here and there is
> nothing to you.
Abhijitre tor kopal kharap. Dhokla babaji toreo fanatic koise. Ekhon sudhu
mickey mouse badh roilo - mickey mukh khulle seo fanatic hoibo.
Eder kothatao bhab. Etodin fanka mathe goal diten. Kotheke sob koikta
upstart jogar hoyechey - babu-bibider alochonae baadh sedhechey. Totto
alochona - scb te pray bondho. Koto boroboro bhoyonkor naam wala sob -ism
achey aar mota mota sob boyi - oki amra notun mokkelra bujhi. Chi chi chi
amaderi dosh.
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:14:35 -0500, Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu>
wrote:
>Kotheke sob koikta upstart jogar hoyechey - babu-bibider alochonae baadh sedhechey.
Amra Babar naam gan kori tai oder shojhyo hoi na, othocho Baba jokhon
mithai churey churey marey tokhon dekho shobai hajir.
Baba jodi hukum koren tobey ajkei koyekta-key boli di....overnight
FEDEX korey debo....bhalo breakfast kortey parben.
Jai ramji ki, siddhartha
Arindam
Abhijit writes:
>Srabani Di, with all due respect, you're full of $hit if you think just
******************************
>because Sambit Basu was instrumental in getting scb into existence means I
>dont
>have the right to say what I darn well please.
Referring to even a year back (around the end of '96), it's apparent that
there has been a change in the way people choose to reveal themselves in this
newsgroup. That little phrase above kind of sums up the level of decency we
reserve today for people whom we decide to call didi (at whatever point of an
argument). That's been a change for sure. Of course, vulgarities manifold more
than this have been bandied in this newsgroup over the last few months,
(including threats to parade people naked). To the best of my understanding,
use of this kind of phrases have never been part of the jargon of people who
would cherish bengali culture. And freedom from context and content was a
matter of derision, not adulation in the scb even a year back, to my
knowledge.
"However, I also
have the right to not give a flying f--k about your preferences."
- Abhijit to Srabani
I guess that's where the problem lies, scb charters or not.
Can we hope a little bit of decency to each other in this newsgroup? And how
about putting a bit more emphasis on "we", rather than blaming and shaming
"them" ? Or perhaps explore a bit into a heritage that is intrinsic to the
Bengal culture?
Does that suck because it's inconvenient? Perhaps because there is no
convenience of uninformed opinions and flaming?
Just my thoughts,
Arindam
Srabani Banerjee
Abhijit Mitra wrote:
> >Do you know why and how this newsgroup was formed?
>
> And back we go to that age old crap that we desiz like to pull so much - Mr.
> A and Mr. B started this and you're new so how dare you disagree with the
> founders?!?
Now where did I say that?
> Srabani Di, with all due respect, you're full of $hit if you think just
> because Sambit Basu was instrumental in getting scb into existence means I dont
> have the right to say what I darn well please.
Who's talking about rights, kid? You, obviously, have the right to
believe all the shit that you do. And I reserve my right to express my
opinions.
> >Did you ever care to find out who were instrumental in forming
> >this group before putting that foot in your mouth?
>
> Thats not relevant. Ive never seen him say *anything* that wasnt a pointless
> tipponi, so I said what I did and I stand by it.
Yeah right, anything you haven't seen doesn't exist and never did.
You got a problem, then do
> something about it - or else shut your stanky mouth.
:) Don't you wish?!
> >And, most importantly, since you seem to be so fond of `constructive'
> >discussion, did you ever read the SCB charter?
>
> I did. However, I read it *after* I joined the newsgroup and know what I saw?
> That no one followed it before me anyways.
Fine, they also mostly did not express this sense of self-righteous
indignation that you did at not having `constructive' discussion.
Politics is discouraged, right? Well
> I saw PLENTY of people talking politics here much before I ever got here. The
> only difference was that they were all leftists and well, I'm not.
If you are starting from the basic premise that all bengalis, with the
glorious exception of those who join the saffron brigade, are, by
definition, leftists, then I have nothing to say. However, if I am to
credit you with more sense than what you are displaying here, I would
have to ask you to find out who the prominent SCB-ites were and what
percentage of them actually espoused leftist views.
And how DARE
> I (and all my cheerleaders) intrude in the bastion of those who lick Marxs
> buttcracks, right?
Look here, kid - I am beginning to realize that all this must be giving
you some inordinate sense of power or something. I don't grudge you
that, but out of concern for your mental health (you called me
Srabani-di, after all), I advise you to get a reality check. I don't
think SCB was ever a leftist bastion - at least, not certainly, since
Dec '95, when I first started reading it. There were, of course, our
favourite leftists with their utopian dreams - but know what? They all
came across as rather harmless, well-meaning people - an entirely
different breed from your religious text thumping hate-mongerers.
> >SCB used to be a very different place before all your favourite scumbags
> >started crossposting their `opinions' here.
>
> I know. Which is why it had to change. Leftism in Bengal is a scourge that
> *will* be eliminated, and people like me (and my cheerleaders) are only a
> manifestation of that.
You and your cheerleaders are a manifestation of the `scourge that will
be eliminated'??? You have me all confused here, kid.
> >And, quite a few old-timers have left, sickened by their posts.
>
> Thats their problem. Leftists never were able to take criticism.
ad infinitum, ad nauseaum... trying to convince yourself that this is
what had actually happened?
> >Do you think anybody should care what you get sick of?
>
> No. But I can say what I get sick of nevertheless - as can you. However, I also
> have the right to not give a flying f--k about your preferences.
Thank god for small mercies!
> "decent people"? Some are, yes. Many are not - many of the so-called 'decent'
> people on this NG are really nothing but artifically inflated snobs -
What makes you conclude that? And what on earth is an `artificially
inflated snob'? Garbage disgusts me, kid. Does that make me a snob?
but then,
> that *is* what the quintessential Bangali bhodrolok is like, right?
No, not right. The `quintessential bangali bhodrolok' is a rather fast
disappearing species - one about which you seem to have no clue
whatsoever.
Srabanidi
Srabani Banerjee
Abhijit Mitra wrote:
>
> pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>
> >And some of the (good) old timers have really not been all that good.
>
> clad obnoxious marxist snobs.
Not only `dhuti clad', I am sure some of them actually preferred vanilla
to chocolate icecream. Disgusting, right?
> >Some of the best examples of abusive language have come from some
> >of the not-so-good-old-timers.
Clever attempt at changing the topic, Nachiketa-babu.
> You might wanna give some examples of that, these people won't get it unless
> yo do.
Yes, please. Just be careful when looking for the `best examples' - the
last time I checked, your cheer-leaders were winning, hands down.
> >Another change, though unrelated, has been that all the people on this forum
> >no longer sing in the same tune.
What, with the arrival of a tuneless few, who for the sake of
discretion, shall go nameless.
> Actually, it's not as unrelated as you think. Before, this place used to be a
> 'forum' for agreeing with each other. Not for discussion.
This is an SCB you dreamed up, right, kid?
Srabani
Sambit Basu
Abhijit Mitra <mi...@remus.rutgers.edu> wrote:
> so-called 'decent'
> people on this NG are really nothing but artifically inflated snobs - but
then,
> that *is* what the quintessential Bangali bhodrolok is like, right?
Ask daddy.
Sambit Basu
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On 3 Jan 1998 16:57:37 -0500, mi...@remus.rutgers.edu (Abhijit Mitra)
wrote:
>And back we go to that age old crap that we desiz like to pull so much - Mr.
>A and Mr. B started this and you're new so how dare you disagree with the
>founders?!?
Abhijit ekta kotha bolbo? Kichu money korona....
Gala gali diyey shokoler bongsho uddhar korey diley "constructive
discussion" hoy na.....
just a suggestion, only because you said that you appreciate
constructive discussion.
regards, siddhartha
Pran Lal
Rajiv Shukla wrote:
>Abhijit Mitra wrote:
>> You might wanna give some examples of that, these people won't get it
>unless
>> yo do.
>
>Yup, let's have them here.
Rajiv babu:
Ever remember "loads of crap"!!!
Let us not rake up history.
nachiketa
Pran Lal
Srabani B wrote:
Abhijit Mitra wrote:
>
> pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) writes:
>
> >And some of the (good) old timers have really not been all that good.
>
> Absolutely. Many of the old timers were really nothing more than a buncha
dhuti
> clad obnoxious marxist snobs.
Not only `dhuti clad', I am sure some of them actually preferred vanilla
to chocolate icecream. Disgusting, right?
> >Some of the best examples of abusive language have come from some
> >of the not-so-good-old-timers.
Clever attempt at changing the topic, Nachiketa-babu.
----------
The original thread was about paying [or not] tributes to me.
Also, my "clever" attempt was made to show that the so-called-good-old-timers
were not-so-all-that-good.
It was in response to your post, and your nostalgia.
You may have the last word on this.
nachiketa
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On 4 Jan 1998 13:53:40 GMT, pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) wrote:
>Rajiv babu:
>Ever remember "loads of crap"!!! Let us not rake up history.
Hmmm, but I am sure you will agree that an undefined crap (of which
the cow variety is actually holy) is nothing compared to a personal
"pink arse".
I hereby request Arindam to pull out some juicy examples from the
bank.
regards, siddhartha
Soumitra Bose
Ekta odhbut observation kora gelo. SCBte saffron Brigade er bairer
shobaike to commie trash bole dewo holo , jara ei fatwa dilo tara SCBte
lekhen bote kintu banglar sathe kono leshmatro jogajog nei , bangla
bojheno na . Ek jon bangalee saffron achhen . Abhijit edike odike khle
ekta un-biased stance rakhar prochesta dekhan . Kintu dukher byapar
hochhey je SCB te saffron brigade ar Abhjit ke ekti ekok category te
phela jai , ar ta hochyye ektu birodhita holei scatological ebong
pornographic imagery niye ashha , ebong sei sonkranto swaring kora . Eta
kintu bangaleera (jara saffron brigade r category onujaii by default
commie trash) kintu kokhono koren na . Ei distinction ta ki tobe saffron
brigade ba "non-commie-trash" der jonmogoto credential ??????
As for me , ami ontoto abhjiter theke eta asha korini , asha korbo o
hoito eta porihar korbe ....Tobe seta to sudhu amar obhilash , abhjiter
onno kono rokom obhilash thaktei pare..
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On 4 Jan 1998 14:02:48 GMT, pra...@aol.com (Pran Lal) wrote:
>The original thread was about paying [or not] tributes to me.
Dear Pran, I assure you there was no intent of "not" paying tributes
to you . I sort of remember defering to your quotes....... No
ambiguity there.
>Also, my "clever" attempt was made to show that the so-called-good-old-timers
>were not-so-all-that-good.
I would call this Pran Logic but hey Srabani is better: "gulli-danda"
logic...I like that.
>It was in response to your post, and your nostalgia.
True, nostalgia is a powerful emotion....a feeling of sadness for the
days gone by....the good old days when we did not have a pollution
problem...of Muslims........
please continue to amuse, siddhartha
Srabani Banerjee
Pran Lal wrote:
>
> Srabani B wrote:
Srabani Banerjee, actually - but if you find Banerjee a bit difficult to
spell, Srabani will do.
[...]
> > >Some of the best examples of abusive language have come from some
> > >of the not-so-good-old-timers.
>
> Clever attempt at changing the topic, Nachiketa-babu.
> ----------
>
> The original thread was about paying [or not] tributes to me.
Yeah, and then it, unfortunately, sort of changed tracks. But don't
blame me - our new kid on the block brought in a different issue.
Should we stick to our tributes, then? Believe me, this is something I'm
very nostalgic about. So I'm game. Are you?
> Also, my "clever" attempt was made to show that the so-called-good-old-timers
> were not-so-all-that-good.
`good' is so subjective, dear Nachiketa-babu. They didn't habitually
cross-post irrelevant trash to all newsgroups in sight, did they? They,
at least, had a rudimentary knowledge about and interest in Bengali
language and culture, didn't they?
Now, as someone pointed out, you cannot be accused of cross-posting,
anymore. Most of the stuff you churn out these days is for the sole
benefit of the hapless SCB-ite. But do you think that this would fool us
into believing that you have suddenly developed a major interest in
Bengal and bengalis?
> It was in response to your post, and your nostalgia.
>
> You may have the last word on this.
:) As if you have a choice, dear Nachiketa-babu.
Srabani
Abhijit Mitra
Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>They all came across as rather harmless, well-meaning people - an entirely
>different breed from your religious text thumping hate-mongerers.
Im sick of this 'fight.' You win, I lose.
Now about the charter which you and Sambit like to bring up so much - I'll
follow it (i.e., no politics and no religious sectarianism) if the people on
scb who started this before me do too. You make it happen, and I *will* follow
the lead, promise:)
As for branding me as a "religious text thumping hate-mongerer," I'll assume
you said that in exactly the same kinda haste in which I branded you (did I?)
as a leftist - so I'll ignore it.
>Garbage disgusts me, kid. Does that make me a snob?
What makes one a snob (not necessarily you) is ones definition of garbage -
ones willingness to dismiss as 'garbage' any idealogy that does not fit into
ones preconcieved image of that which is 'good.'
So if garbage disgusts you, that does not by itself makes you a snob - but you
should try and look into the *reason* you regard something as garbage and
something as not.
>The `quintessential bangali bhodrolok' is a rather fast disappearing species -
>one about which you seem to have no clue whatsoever.
*sigh* Perhaps not the *quintessential* bhodrolok, but I do have a pretty good
idea of what passes these days in the name of being a 'bhodrolok.' It's
usually associated with an intense pride of everything Bengali (which is a
GREAT thing), but quite often associated with an intense dislike, even contempt
at times, for things that are not - especially anything associated with the
Hindi belt. Now, there are exceptions to that - many. But it's widespread
enough (atleast among the Bangalis I've known and met in my short life) for me
to believe its definitely not somethign I would regard as *good*.
Anyways, let me repeat my original point - I'll stop the politics IF others do.
Bye bye Srabani Di :)
-A.M.
Abhijit Mitra
Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
>Abhijitre tor kopal kharap.
Na, amaro dosh aache, aar ta ami shikaar kori. Gaala-gaalir byebohaar korlam,
taar jonne shobbar kache khoma chai - especially from Ms Banerjee
>Eder kothatao bhab.
Bhabchi dada, bhabchi...
>Etodin fanka mathe goal diten. Kotheke sob koikta upstart jogar hoyechey
Ami ei matro Srabani Di ke bollam (likhlaam, rather) je shob purono SCBiites
jodi rajnitic alochona bondo kore, tahale amio nijer mukh-e taala lagiye chaabi
fele debo. Kintu onnoder phaaka maath-e football khelte dekhle amar-o icche
korbe ektu football-e du ek laathi maarthe...
-A.M.
Abhijit Mitra
Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>SCBte saffron Brigade er bairer shobaike to commie trash bole dewo holo
Ta amar bhul.
>banglar sathe kono leshmatro jogajog nei , bangla bojheno na .
Na, dada - ami bangla bujhi, jodio apnaar motun bhalo likhte ba porte paarina.
>birodhita holei ... swaring kora .
I shouldnt have said that, and I apologise.
>Eta kintu bangaleera ... kokhono koren na .
Na, ami je extreme-e korlaam, shei extreme-e korenaa...
>Ei distinction ta ki tobe saffron brigade ba "non-commie-trash" der jonmogoto
>credential ??????
Na, ei characteristic ta amar - saffron brigade-er na. Dosh ta amar - onno
karor na.
Jodi ekhunu apnar mone hoe je eita saffronite der charachteristic, Pran Lal-er
kono post khule dekhun, gala gali paben-na.
>As for me , ami ontoto abhjiter theke eta asha korini , asha korbo o
>hoito eta porihar korbe
korlaam. Porihaar korlaam.
Abhijit Mitra
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 14:56:41 -0500, Srabani Banerjee
<bane...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>Pran Lal wrote:
>>Also, my "clever" attempt was made to show that the so-called-good-old-timers were not-so-all-that-good.
>They, at least, had a rudimentary knowledge about and interest in Bengali language and culture, didn't they?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
three cheers, hip-hip-hurray, yessssss!
Actually you are being unfair to Pran, he does have a rudimentary
knowledge (not interest, that's different) of the Bengali culture.
His sole contribution to SCB is mainly to inspire in SCB-ites a fear
of native communities (muslims etc.) and disgust for native people
(Rabindranath etc.). He feigns surprise when people hit back and calls
it "tribal."
As for his motivation, the only thing I can think of is that he
"feels" that all "good" SCB-ites have you-know-who living in our
hearts, and dang it , he wants to take a knife to all of us and cut
our hearts out and show it;)))
>Now, as someone pointed out, you cannot be accused of cross-posting,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now who can that "someone" be?;))
regards, siddhartha
Supratik Das
On 4 Jan 1998, Abhijit Mitra wrote:
> Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
> >Abhijitre tor kopal kharap.
> Na, amaro dosh aache, aar ta ami shikaar kori. Gaala-gaalir byebohaar korlam,
> taar jonne shobbar kache khoma chai - especially from Ms Banerjee
Srabanidevi ke gala galita bhul hoyechey bote - bhodromohila boroi upset.
Keno bujhina:
1) If they do not like dissenting voices they may use the kill file.
2) If they do not like the kind of discussions on scb they should have
their own threads or even their own moderated newsgroups where they can
discuss without being disturbed by the fascist, fanatic forces.
3) I have a feeling that the problem is more with the fact that they do
not want us at all to express our opinions - right or wrong.
4) The character of internet ngps is such that discussions tend to be free
for all. If you can't live with it leave it.
> >Etodin fanka mathe goal diten. Kotheke sob koikta upstart jogar hoyechey
> Ami ei matro Srabani Di ke bollam (likhlaam, rather) je shob purono SCBiites
> jodi rajnitic alochona bondo kore, tahale amio nijer mukh-e taala lagiye chaabi
> fele debo. Kintu onnoder phaaka maath-e football khelte dekhle amar-o icche
> korbe ektu football-e du ek laathi maarthe...
Exactly. aar footballe du ek lathi marle gaeo du ek lathi lagbe etai
sabhabik. Ta eder boktobyo je football khelbey kintu oder lathi marte
parbey na, goal dite parbe na. Sudhu orai goal debey aar lathi marbe.
Onnyo keo sei rule bhangle se oboshyoi fascist ebong fanatic.
Supratik Das
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Siddhartha Duttagupta wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:14:35 -0500, Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu>
> wrote:
> >Kotheke sob koikta upstart jogar hoyechey - babu-bibider alochonae baadh sedhechey.
> Amra Babar naam gan kori tai oder shojhyo hoi na, othocho Baba jokhon
> mithai churey churey marey tokhon dekho shobai hajir.
Dekhish Sidhu bhalo kore naam gaan koris. Dhop maris na jeno.
> Baba jodi hukum koren tobey ajkei koyekta-key boli di....overnight
> FEDEX korey debo....bhalo breakfast kortey parben.
Tor Jyoti dadu ja diye sokaley feasty korey tari dui ekta sample pathiye
dish. Boro iccha songrami biplobi manushra ki khan janar. Amra goribra
rooti gur kheye boro hoyechi - bhalo breakfast korabi eto sukher byapar -
koyakta bhalo dekhey songrami murgi pathiye dish.
> Jai ramji ki, siddhartha
Shala, bhuter mukhye ram naam. Ne ganga jol diye mukh dho. chi chi.
Shib Shib. Shib Shib.
Supratik Das
On 4 Jan 1998, Arindam wrote:
> Referring to even a year back (around the end of '96), it's apparent that
> there has been a change in the way people choose to reveal themselves in this
> newsgroup. That little phrase above kind of sums up the level of decency we
> reserve today for people whom we decide to call didi (at whatever point of an
> argument). That's been a change for sure. Of course, vulgarities manifold more
> than this have been bandied in this newsgroup over the last few months,
> (including threats to parade people naked). To the best of my understanding,
Arindam babajibon. Ekhon palti khaccho keno baba. Tokhonto amay personal
mail-e khub oshka chiley - debo koyakta sample scb -te pathiye.
Your anti-nudist fascist bias shows in your contempt of parading people
naked.- Long Live Nudity.
This is not to support what Abhijit said to Srabanidevi. However, your
pointing fingers at one side while glossing over the other is
regrettable.
> use of this kind of phrases have never been part of the jargon of people who
> would cherish bengali culture. And freedom from context and content was a
> matter of derision, not adulation in the scb even a year back, to my
> knowledge.
I have been on scb for 4 yrs. I don't see that much change either in
context or content. The only difference I see was that previously the
leftist brigade used to do the sole shouting with me being one of the sole
dissenting voices. Now there is at least an Abhijit, Sambit, Pradip, etc,
etc. who differ widely in their respective beliefs but are barve enough to
put their neck out and fight it out. Once that started the leftist brigade
became very worried at the growing level of fascism, fanaticism and the
low level of decency amongst the fascist, fanatic elements - very
convenient indeed.
Previously I used to be the fascist and religious fanatic (though my
interest in religion is no more than my interest in UFOs). Now the other
dissenting voices are also fanatics and fascists.
> I guess that's where the problem lies, scb charters or not.
> Can we hope a little bit of decency to each other in this newsgroup? And how
> about putting a bit more emphasis on "we", rather than blaming and shaming
> "them" ? Or perhaps explore a bit into a heritage that is intrinsic to the
> Bengal culture?
> Does that suck because it's inconvenient? Perhaps because there is no
> convenience of uninformed opinions and flaming?
I am not so convinced.
The process goes on in the following cycle:
Either side will start a discussion first with their own biases. The other
side will oppose it vehemently and frequently it will become a slugging
match. Tempers will be lost and subsequently things follow.
So Arindam there is no one side holier than the other, despite your good
attempts to prove otherwise.
The best way to get rid of this problem is to stop discussing political
issues on scb altogether or maybe appoint someone as the
informal moderator.
Since you have a huge CV on decency and behaviour - why don't you become
the moderator i.e. whenever someone crosses the boundaries of decency that
no 'cultured' Bengali should ever cross you can drop in and remind the
offender that he is being a shame to Bengali culture, history, et al.
Hopefully once the person is adequately ashamed at bringing down the
entire Bengali civilization he will proceed to dicuss with proper decency
or leave scb altogether.
Rajiv Shukla
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> I have been on scb for 4 yrs.
Just curious, SCB hasn't been around for 4 yrs. Around 3.5 (mid
1994-present) AFAIK.
Also, I haven't seen you here for that long. Are you sure that you're
right?
> I don't see that much change either in context or content.
Now, this proves that you're wrong. The content *was* distinctly
different. That is
not to say it's great or anything but hardly similar to the current SCB
fashion.
Looks like another NC episode unfolding here, your desire to say
something overcomes your obvious lack of knowledge of the topic.
> The only difference I see was that previously the
> leftist brigade used to do the sole shouting with me being one of the sole
It has been already pointed out that many of the so called leftists were
far more
decent people than many of the rightists we see here. Many of them are
idealists
(and slightly hypocritic may be) and fairly decent, sporting folks,
they had no
hidden agenda. They didn't attempt to highjack the NG either.
> The best way to get rid of this problem is to stop discussing political
> issues on scb altogether or maybe appoint someone as the
> informal moderator.
>
>
> Hopefully once the person is adequately ashamed at bringing down the
> entire Bengali civilization he will proceed to dicuss with proper decency
> or leave scb altogether.
We'll know. Won't we? Your future behaviour will testify to that, I am
sure.
Actually, judging from your most recent posts I see enough grounds to be
optimistic
about your suggested solution.
Supratik Das
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Siddhartha Duttagupta wrote:
> >Tor Jyoti dadu ja diye sokaley feasty korey tari dui ekta sample pathiye
> >dish.
> Chi Chi chi, ekta CM-er breakfast ki apnakey ami bhokto chela hoyey
> ditey pari? Hyan India-r PM-er breakfast...ta chinta korey dekha jetey
> parey. Beshi deri nei, february mash thekei mail order shuru korbo....
Na khukumoni - amar oi Jyoti Dadur breakfast-i chai
Ta tumito abar Jyoti daduke PM korbey - ta Jyoti babu PM holey tokjhon na
hoy PM-er breakfast pathiyo - kintu Jyoti breakfast chara cholbey na
> > Amra goribra rooti gur kheye boro hoyechi -
> Eki eyi jey bollen jey red sauce diyey manush khan, ta dhop marchilen
Ja cholle - aare Jyoti Daduo to red sauce diye dinner saren.
> naki? Ram Ram, kaney angul ditey hoi.
> shobi ramji-r ichhey, siddhartha
Chi chi Khokamoni bhuter mukhey ram naam kortey neyi - ote omongol hoy
Supratik Das
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Siddhartha Duttagupta wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:01:29 -0500, Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu>
> wrote:
> >4) The character of internet ngps is such that discussions tend to be free
> >for all. If you can't live with it leave it.
> Baba thakur, dukkher bishoi babar-o baba achey. Apni jodi temon temon
> bakyo charen tobey apnar system administrator apnar account haphish
> korey debey. Tokhon amra eto bani pabo kotthekey?
Se chesta tomar gurubhaira korechilo khukumoni - apatoto kaaj deyni
Aar amiyo dose-ta behbe chinte kome rakhi - sabdhaner maar neyi
> chintagroto chela, siddhartha
Seki khokamoni - tumi abar chintao koro naki??
Supratik Das
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Rajiv Shukla wrote:
> Supratik Das wrote:
> > I have been on scb for 4 yrs.
> Just curious, SCB hasn't been around for 4 yrs. Around 3.5 (mid
> 1994-present) AFAIK.
> Also, I haven't seen you here for that long. Are you sure that you're
> right?
I said 'around' 4 yrs. Yes, I have been around that long but previously
chose not to participate.
> > I don't see that much change either in context or content.
> Now, this proves that you're wrong. The content *was* distinctly
> different. That is
> not to say it's great or anything but hardly similar to the current SCB
> fashion.
Is it? I think the posts are distinctly similar for the last 2-1/2 yrs at
least.
> Looks like another NC episode unfolding here, your desire to say
> something overcomes your obvious lack of knowledge of the topic.
Isn't it true for all of us? -:)
Logically speaking of course as the leftist is always right isn't it
appropriate that all others will know at least slightly less than them.
I am more of a virulent leftist-critic than a rightist though unless of
course protesting crappy leftist dogma or deliberations qualifies one as
being a rightist.
The Bengali leftist has one place most suitable for him - the museum.
Get rid of the leftist menace of Bengal and I'll be your friendly leftist
neighbour.
> > The only difference I see was that previously the
> > leftist brigade used to do the sole shouting with me being one of the sole
> It has been already pointed out that many of the so called leftists were
> far more
> decent people than many of the rightists we see here. Many of them are
> idealists
> (and slightly hypocritic may be) and fairly decent, sporting folks,
> they had no
> hidden agenda. They didn't attempt to highjack the NG either.
I bet your opposing view has a similar thing to say - only we have to
change places for the leftists and rightists.
> > The best way to get rid of this problem is to stop discussing political
> > issues on scb altogether or maybe appoint someone as the
> > informal moderator.
> > Hopefully once the person is adequately ashamed at bringing down the
> > entire Bengali civilization he will proceed to dicuss with proper decency
> > or leave scb altogether.
> We'll know. Won't we? Your future behaviour will testify to that, I am
> sure.
Ah! You give me too much credit.
> Actually, judging from your most recent posts I see enough grounds to be
> optimistic
> about your suggested solution.
Thats becoz Soumitra Bose has kept off me (and I off him). Wait till he/me
jumps on me/him and you will see sparks fly like good ol' times.
Supratik Das
On 5 Jan 1998, Arindam wrote:
> >Arindam babajibon. Ekhon palti khaccho keno baba. Tokhonto amay personal
> >mail-e khub oshka chiley - debo koyakta sample scb -te pathiye.
> Supratik, ami usually personal mail cheshta kori personal mail hishebe
> pathatey. Aar oshkaley-i (for example, "Go Supratik") tumi aslil expression
> post korbe, eta kemon kotha? If I expect you to have a finer sense of
> judgement on the limits of your verbiage, am I expecting too much from an
> educated, intelligent person?
It was an obvious invitation to a flame war (remember how Arnab was
continously poking). You are putting too much importance to it.
You didn't like it - thats your opinion.
> >Your anti-nudist fascist bias shows in your contempt of parading people
> >naked.- Long Live Nudity.
> **********************
> If you sincerely believe in nudity, it's fine. It's your belief. I would still
> argue that making other people parade as nudes is against ethical principles. I
> may be wrong in your eyes, I can't help it.
Hey, don't let me explain the jokes now!!! Gawd!!!
> >However, your
> >pointing fingers at one side while glossing over the other is
> >regrettable.
> If you remember the war of words you had with some of the other posters of this
> newsgroup and if you'd kindly compare your expressions with some of theirs, you
> were much more aggressive and loud. In contrast, your adversaries wanted
'Aggressive' - yes. 'Loud' - No. Thats me.
> information from you (about Nirad C's book on Hinduism, for example). What was
> wrong in that? I do not know if Nirad C has written a book specifically on
> Hinduism, so if you indeed provided the name of the book, it would be great.
> Instead of answering them directly, you started using indecent expressions
> (perhaps to defend yourself!).
Aah thats where you go wrong. I didn't start the indecent expressions
(rather jestful expressions - you are being too naive or too school
teacherish) but retaliated and it had nothing to do with whether I knew if
he wrote anything on Hinduism or not. I refused to discuss the issue
further becoz I felt the original purpose of the discussion was lost and
that Arnab was more interested in finding out what I did not know rather
than what I knew. So I chose not to fall into that trap.
And some of your expressions were indeed
> hilarious (as Siddhartha Duttagupta stated he rolled on the floor, laughing,
> when he read your remarks against Akhtar Siddique! Sorry Akhtar, if you are
> reading this, some of us did have a laugh!). And then it's so easy to entice
Gee, at least you understand that most of the remarks I make are in jest.
The problem lies when some take it too personally or seriously but then
thats there problem.
> you to write that kind of stuff! (I am sorry guys, that to get a vicarious
> cheap laugh, even I perhaps enticed Supratik posting stuff like "Go Supratik"
> and all that! I am ashamed). The issue is not to point a finger specifically to
> you, Supratik, but if it looks like that to you, maybe! The matter is not
> glossing over others and accusing you, the issue is a stand against
> obscenities, if you will please understand. You or I are not important here.
I don't see where obscenities come into the picture. I usually make fun of
people and sometimes use sexual expressions. Sometimes I do use
expressions like 'asshole' but then they deserve to hear that or is it
very obscene??
> >Either side will start a discussion first with their own biases. The other
> >side will oppose it vehemently and frequently it will become a
> *********************
> >slugging match. Tempers will be lost and subsequently things
> ************************************************
> >follow.
> ******
> That's the issue to attack here. My point is, before it gets to the point
> where tempers will fly (and hot air starts coming, to put Siddhartha's
> expressions), why can't we control the situation? Or ourselves, maybe?
I think becoz the differences in view point are too polarized. There is no
middle ground - there is no yah, you may be right and I may be wrong.
So its like if you label me Fascist, Fanatic I'll label you
Communist/Stalinist. We are all responding to our perceived enemies.
> Frequently it becomes a slugging match when the losing side realizes it's
> checkmated (like lost the meaning of the name of another poster...sorry, no
> intention to point a finger at you). You and I have not seen each other. Let's
The meaning has not been lost. I still maintain there was a woman in our
class by that name. I am currently consulting people who may know.
So the issue is still open.
> use internet newsgroups as places where we develop friendships, and not to pick
> up a source of conflict.
Aha, interesting thought. Why don't you do me a favor? Why not ask your
friends not to post mails explaining how Aurungzeb built temples and we
will stop posting. I, like Abhijit promise you that if your friends stop
posting on such issues we will do so too. We might even convince Nachiketa
to stop posting. Do you think your 'decent' friends will respond to that?
Then you guys can kill yourself to death discussing 'post-modernism', etc.
and I will not say a word.
> >Since you have a huge CV on decency and behaviour - why don't you become
> >the moderator i.e. whenever someone crosses the boundaries of decency that
> >no 'cultured' Bengali should ever cross you can drop in and remind the
> .....etc....
> Your sarcasm is well taken. Your offer of course, is, declined, if you still
> didn't get it! :)
See, thats the problem - good people like you do not take up the cudgel
against indecent people like us.
Supratik Das
On 5 Jan 1998, Arindam wrote:
> >The best way to get rid of this problem is to stop discussing political
> >issues on scb altogether or maybe appoint someone as the
> >informal moderator.
> Oh, and I forgot to mention that while it's a good idea, it's not really
> necessary if people choose to be decent to each other.
> My compliments to Abhijit Mitra for his most recent posts to Soumitra,
> Siddhartha and perhaps to you as well, wasn't it? Consider them, and I hope
> you'll see my points there.
Frankly I don't see what is so grave in them.
However, let me see if I can be of help since I do not really want to be
responsible for the downfall of the Bengali civilization. I'll keep off
those posts which are not political in nature. I will of course respond if
gross lies are being presented (as is often the case) or a flame is being
generated (the temptation of a flame war can be overpowering).
So lets see if your biplobi bondhus maintain the cease fire.
Supratik
Soumitra Bose
Abhijit er songye amar jotoi motanoikko hok na keno , ami kintu
shobshomoiei Or ei bhul kore okopote dosh shikar korar gun ke khubii
shrodhha kori. Et saffron brigade r hole besh pholoproshu hoto.
BTW , Abhijit bangla jane na , seta kintu ami bolini , ami saffron
brigader kotha bolechi jar modhye matro ekjon bangla jane bole thahor hoi
, tobe seta sototoi Abhijit noi.
Ar Nachiketa ba Pran LAl(jini nijer atmoporichoy ekhono nirdharon kore
uthte parlen na ) je hare daine bNaie shobaike "commie-trash" gaal diye
cholechhe ar ektu dhakka khelei tar Hardik aMtojo Gopal Saraswat er
Vedbakyi ke invoke korchhe , tate galagali ke balokhillota r porjaiyero
niche mone hoi...
Ja hok ektu namaboli chapiye na diye torko bitorko korlei sorbomongol ...
Siddhartha Duttagupta
>4) The character of internet ngps is such that discussions tend to be free
>for all. If you can't live with it leave it.
Baba thakur, dukkher bishoi babar-o baba achey. Apni jodi temon temon
bakyo charen tobey apnar system administrator apnar account haphish
korey debey. Tokhon amra eto bani pabo kotthekey?
chintagroto chela, siddhartha
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:19:49 -0500, Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu>
wrote:
>Tor Jyoti dadu ja diye sokaley feasty korey tari dui ekta sample pathiye
>dish.
Chi Chi chi, ekta CM-er breakfast ki apnakey ami bhokto chela hoyey
ditey pari? Hyan India-r PM-er breakfast...ta chinta korey dekha jetey
parey. Beshi deri nei, february mash thekei mail order shuru korbo....
> Amra goribra rooti gur kheye boro hoyechi -
Eki eyi jey bollen jey red sauce diyey manush khan, ta dhop marchilen
Arindam
>Arindam babajibon. Ekhon palti khaccho keno baba. Tokhonto amay personal
>mail-e khub oshka chiley - debo koyakta sample scb -te pathiye.
Supratik, ami usually personal mail cheshta kori personal mail hishebe
pathatey. Aar oshkaley-i (for example, "Go Supratik") tumi aslil expression
post korbe, eta kemon kotha? If I expect you to have a finer sense of
judgement on the limits of your verbiage, am I expecting too much from an
educated, intelligent person?
>Your anti-nudist fascist bias shows in your contempt of parading people
>naked.- Long Live Nudity.
**********************
If you sincerely believe in nudity, it's fine. It's your belief. I would still
argue that making other people parade as nudes is against ethical principles. I
may be wrong in your eyes, I can't help it.
>However, your
>pointing fingers at one side while glossing over the other is
>regrettable.
If you remember the war of words you had with some of the other posters of this
newsgroup and if you'd kindly compare your expressions with some of theirs, you
were much more aggressive and loud. In contrast, your adversaries wanted
information from you (about Nirad C's book on Hinduism, for example). What was
wrong in that? I do not know if Nirad C has written a book specifically on
Hinduism, so if you indeed provided the name of the book, it would be great.
Instead of answering them directly, you started using indecent expressions
(perhaps to defend yourself!). And some of your expressions were indeed
hilarious (as Siddhartha Duttagupta stated he rolled on the floor, laughing,
when he read your remarks against Akhtar Siddique! Sorry Akhtar, if you are
reading this, some of us did have a laugh!). And then it's so easy to entice
you to write that kind of stuff! (I am sorry guys, that to get a vicarious
cheap laugh, even I perhaps enticed Supratik posting stuff like "Go Supratik"
and all that! I am ashamed). The issue is not to point a finger specifically to
you, Supratik, but if it looks like that to you, maybe! The matter is not
glossing over others and accusing you, the issue is a stand against
obscenities, if you will please understand. You or I are not important here.
>Either side will start a discussion first with their own biases. The other
>side will oppose it vehemently and frequently it will become a
*********************
>slugging match. Tempers will be lost and subsequently things
************************************************
>follow.
******
That's the issue to attack here. My point is, before it gets to the point
where tempers will fly (and hot air starts coming, to put Siddhartha's
expressions), why can't we control the situation? Or ourselves, maybe?
Frequently it becomes a slugging match when the losing side realizes it's
checkmated (like lost the meaning of the name of another poster...sorry, no
intention to point a finger at you). You and I have not seen each other. Let's
use internet newsgroups as places where we develop friendships, and not to pick
up a source of conflict.
>So Arindam there is no one side holier than the other, despite your good
>attempts to prove otherwise.
Perhaps.
>Since you have a huge CV on decency and behaviour - why don't you become
>the moderator i.e. whenever someone crosses the boundaries of decency that
>no 'cultured' Bengali should ever cross you can drop in and remind the
.....etc....
Your sarcasm is well taken. Your offer of course, is, declined, if you still
didn't get it! :)
Arindam
Arindam
Supratik wrote:
>The best way to get rid of this problem is to stop discussing political
>issues on scb altogether or maybe appoint someone as the
>informal moderator.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that while it's a good idea, it's not really
necessary if people choose to be decent to each other.
My compliments to Abhijit Mitra for his most recent posts to Soumitra,
Siddhartha and perhaps to you as well, wasn't it? Consider them, and I hope
you'll see my points there.
Cheers,
Arindam
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:28:11 -0500, Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu>
wrote:
>Na khukumoni - amar oi Jyoti Dadur breakfast-i chai
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Chi chi Khokamoni bhuter mukhey ram naam kortey neyi - ote omongol hoy
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Kokhon khoka, kokhono khuku,
Supu breakfast khai dhuku dhuku.
siddhartha
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:23:33 -0500, Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu>
wrote:
>Aar amiyo dose-ta behbe chinte kome rakhi - sabdhaner maar neyi
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Taholey manchen jey apnar moto shoktishali Baba-keo shabdhaney thaktey
hoi? Jai ramji, eki ghor koli.
>Seki khokamoni - tumi abar chintao koro naki??
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Khuku khoka hoyey gelo, chinta hobey na?
siddhartha
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:14:12 -0500, Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu>
wrote:
>'Aggressive' - yes. 'Loud' - No. Thats me.
manusher mangsho khaoar shomoy ektu shobdo korey khan, ei arki
Jai babaji ki, siddhartha
Arindam
Supratik writes:
I would still
>> argue that making other people parade as nudes is against ethical
>principles. I
>> may be wrong in your eyes, I can't help it.
>
>
>Hey, don't let me explain the jokes now!!! Gawd!!!
Oh!
>Aah thats where you go wrong. I didn't start the indecent expressions
>(rather jestful expressions - you are being too naive or too school
>teacherish) but retaliated and it had nothing to do with whether I knew
if......
.....>Gee, at least you understand that most of the remarks I make are in
jest.........
>I don't see where obscenities come into the picture. I usually make fun of
>people and sometimes use sexual expressions. Sometimes I do use
>expressions like 'asshole' but then they deserve to hear that or is it
>very obscene??
Dasbabu, er pore aapnar rashobodh sombondhey aar ki-i ba bolbo?
>We are all responding to our perceived enemies.
Is it really necessary to have one?
>Why not ask your
>friends not to post mails explaining...(etc)...
Dasbabu, the issue is not to police anything. If there are conflict of ideas,
and if there are debates, then let there be debates and presentation of
conflicting views. But not empty rhetorics, not content free accusations (and
counter-accusations). Not hard- to- understand -"jests", you know :)
Also, how about some fewer jokes this year?
Regards,
Arindam
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:52:07 -0500, Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu>
wrote:
> I'll keep off those posts which are not political in nature. I will of course respond if
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Don't take offense, but probably you meant the opposite here.
.................................................................................................
Congratulations to all you folks who have helped to bring this up
(Srabani, Supratik, Abhijit, Arindam). I think that a ceasefire is a
great idea. Now I have a few questions about specifics:
Would you be agreeable to the inclusion under "politics" any
discussion of (a) politicians, (b) political alignments, (c) political
beliefs and statements?
From recent experience examples of these include:
(a) JB PM if UF comes to power
(b) BJP-AIADMK realignment
(c) Varsha Bhosle, Sarat Chattopadhyay (only political comments) etc.
regards, siddhartha
PS Supratik, I have already replied to your other posts before I read
this, so this is to tell you that I regret it and will not respond any
further in those threads.
Siddhartha Duttagupta
My other suggestion is that since cross-postings are inevitable,
scb-ites are welcome to respond to those postings in s.c.i. (after
having removed scb from the send list).
Actually I am just repeating what the charter says..stupid me.
regards, siddhartha
Arindam
>Frankly I don't see what is so grave in them.
Grave?
>So lets see if your biplobi bondhus maintain the cease fire.
Is a war going on here?
Arindam
Srabani Banerjee
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Rajiv Shukla wrote:
>
> > Supratik Das wrote:
>
> > > I have been on scb for 4 yrs.
>
> > Just curious, SCB hasn't been around for 4 yrs. Around 3.5 (mid
> > 1994-present) AFAIK.
> > Also, I haven't seen you here for that long. Are you sure that you're
> > right?
>
> I said 'around' 4 yrs.
No, you didn't. Don't lie. Go back and read what you wrote.
Srabani
Arnab Gupta
Supratik Das wrote:
>
> On 5 Jan 1998, Arindam wrote:
>
..[deleted]..
>
> > If you remember the war of words you had with some of the other posters of this
> > newsgroup and if you'd kindly compare your expressions with some of theirs, you
> > were much more aggressive and loud. In contrast, your adversaries wanted
>
> 'Aggressive' - yes. 'Loud' - No. Thats me.
>
> > information from you (about Nirad C's book on Hinduism, for example). What was
> > wrong in that? I do not know if Nirad C has written a book specifically on
> > Hinduism, so if you indeed provided the name of the book, it would be great.
> > Instead of answering them directly, you started using indecent expressions
> > (perhaps to defend yourself!).
>
NC did write a book on Hinduism. I referred to it in my reply to
Mr. Das (it's named "Hinduism, a religion to live by"). Anyway,
here are some hilarious quotes from our exchanges on this topic
(names of "books" by NC on Hinduism).
****************************************************************
ARNAB:
I am curious why Kanchan Gupta chose to point out an insignificant
encounter between Niradbabu and L K Advani and stress his "hinduness"
but totally ignored a discussion on NC's book on Hinduism.
Can any knowledgable nettor post few lines on Niradbabu's conception
of Hindusim as expressed in that book ?
SUPRATIK:
Arnab wanted to know about his views on Hinduism. I suggest that
you read the couple of books he has on the subject coz it is too vast
to discuss on ngs. I wish I could discuss NC on this ngs but it is too
vast to start typing a discussion and I don't want to do a humbug
progressive job by denouncing or praising him in a couple of sentences.
One warning though.The gentleman is highly critical of the Bengali Hindu
psyche (IMO quite correctly). So be prepared to take the flak.
ARNAB:
Kon kon boi ? AykTa jani "Hinduism, a religion to live by". Onyogulor
naam janan.
SUPRATIK:
I'll try to compile a list and send it to you if I find the time.
ARNAB:
Post on this newsgroup, preferably when this discussion is going on.
SAYAN:
Why send it to Arnab privately? Why not post the list here on the net
so that all of us can benefit?
(NOTE: NO REPLY TO THIS. Sayan-o galagaal diyechhilo naki, Supratikbabu
? Okey kintu apadmostok bhodrolok bolei jani (Sayan oboshyo bhodrolok
bolar jonye amar upor birokto hotey paare :-))).
SUPRATIK:
As for the books - on second thoughts I will skip that part. I don't
think you are looking for books but another brownie point.
ARNAB:
BTW, I'm waiting for your list of books. I'm really interested
in knowing about the "other" books (apart from the one I mentioned)
NC has written on Hinduism.
SUPRATIK:
(No Reply on this issue)
ARNAB:
Porer baar Niradbabur Hinduism-er upor baki boigulor listi antey bhulben
na.
SUPRATIK:
Apnake kono list debar proyojon bodh korina. Ami NC porechi kina seta
ami bhalo jani - apnake proman debar proyojon neyi.
ARNAB:
Ta nei jani. Tobey newsgroup-er onyanyora ki dosh korlo ?
Sayan jantey cheyechhilo...takey janan.
BTW, apni abar kotha ayrachchhen. Apni NiradC porechhen kina
sheTa ami jantey chaina. Ami Hinduism-er upor Niradbabur onyo
boi/boigulor naam jantey chaichhilam. Aapni boro golai janaben
bolechhilen kina.
SUPRATIK:
Taro proyojon neyi. Debona - ki korben?
Dur, Sayaner songey already Medha Patkar niye jhogra hoye gechey. O abar
dekhun lal jhanda niye kon gachey chepe boshey achey. Oke niye abar keno
tana tani (Sayan baba ektu yarki marlam - tumi abar fire hoye jeyo na).
(Sayan-er boi-er naam janar shonge Medha Patkar niye torker ki
jogajog ke jaane | Kete porar cheshTa oboshyo hotey paare).
ARNAB:
Janen to ? Aachchha, proshno-Ta ebhabey kora jaak:
Niradbabur Hinduism-er upor oi aykTa boi chhara aar aachhe ki,
Supratikbabu ? HNya ba Na -te uttor jotheshTo (ba ayratey chailey
"uttor debo na").
(NO REPLY)
***********************************************************************
"Boigulo" actually exist korey to Supratikbabu ? Ontoto "hNya" ba "na"
janan.
> Aah thats where you go wrong. I didn't start the indecent expressions
> (rather jestful expressions - you are being too naive or too school
> teacherish) but retaliated and it had nothing to do with whether I knew if
> he wrote anything on Hinduism or not.
I agree. In fact that's why I quoted our exchanges earlier in this post.
So now let us know about the "books".
I refused to discuss the issue
> further becoz I felt the original purpose of the discussion was lost and
> that Arnab was more interested in finding out what I did not know rather
> than what I knew. So I chose not to fall into that trap.
>
Not really. This is what you said about NC's books on Hinduism:
1. "Arnab wanted to know about his views on Hinduism. I suggest that
you read the couple of books he has on the subject coz it is too vast
to discuss on ngs"
2. "I'll try to compile a list and send it to you if I find the time."
Both of these have the following simple meaning:
NC has written more than ONE book on Hinduism and you *know* about
them.
I only asked you to post the *titles* of those books on this forum.
So where did I try to trap you ? Naamgulo jokhon *janen* tokhon
ayto trap-er bhoi pachchhen kyano ?
..[deleted]..
Incidentally, MR. Das also lied in this thread.
*********************************************************************
ARNAB:
Agreed. But I meant something entirely different! Both Kanchan Gupta
and Nirad C find themselves comfortable in English language/attire
but becomes critical of women who wear Salwar-Kameez since
it is supposedly a "non-Hindu" dress. That's what I referred to as
a case of confused identity.
SUPRATIK:
Three corrections:
1) Although NC writes mainly in English, he has written several essays,
critiques, commentaries, etc in Bengali. There are not many Bengalies at
present who has a proper understanding and control of either English or
Bengali to the extent that NC has.
2) NC is considered to be one of the rare Bengali experts on various
aspects of Bengali culture starting from history of Bengali language,
customs, dress, cuisine, history, literature to religion, etc. I cannot
think of a contemporary Bengali academic with such a repertoire.
3) NC once said that he was perhaps the only Bengali in England who
dared to go out in public wearing dhoti. So I presume he is comfortable
in both Western and Eastern dresses.
My views were similar to Arnab Gupta's before I read NC Chaudhuri. It is
obvious from Arnab's sketchy criticism of NC that he has done very
little.
ARNAB:
"Finding oneself comfortable in English language/attire"
bolle Bangla-Ta baad porey naki ?
SUPRATIK:
I guess thats what my point was!! That he wrote equally well in both
languages.
ARNAB:
If you understood it, then what did you find wrong in my statement ?
Haat nishpish korey naki obantor kotha lekhar jonyo ?
SUPRATIK:
>Koto janen!
Irrelevant point. You were arguing that he wrote only in English to
which I pointed out he wrote equally well in Bengali.
ARNAB:
Let me call you a liar. Prove that I said "he wrote only in
English"
SUPRATIK:
Your mail implied that. In fact that was one of your major complaints.
You are back tracking now.
ARNAB:
It's something more than an abuse..it's a statement of fact
that you have lied and I have provided proof of it.
SUPRATIK:
So you call differing interpretations of a statement lying. Is that what
they taught you at home? It seems to me that it is just that -
different interpretations.
ARNAB:
Ah! Now you are coming to the point. Do you realise that you accused
me of making "mistakes" based on your nonsensensical "interpretation" of
what I wrote ? You admitted earlier that "being comfortable in
English language/attire" does not necessarily exclude the act of
being comfortable in their Bengali counterparts.
And based on this "interpretation" of yours you accused me of
"saying" (note: you said "saying" not "implying") that NC wrote
only in English. I think I'm justified in calling you a liar.
What do you think ?
SUPRATIK:
(No reply related to this)
************************************************************************
Supratikbabu, ami ei kothopokothon-Ta chalatey chai. Je jaigagulo
chhere giyechhilen shegulo "No Reply" boley mark korey diyechhi
apnaar shubidhar jonye. Let's go back to the discussion.
Thanks,
Arnab.
Bengali
In article <34AE71...@hotmail.com>, rsh...@gte.com wrote:
> > Actually, the usage of abusive words has gone down over these
> > years. Another change, though unrelated, has been that all the
> > people on this forum no longer sing in the same tune.
>
> Cut the bullshit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
example of the "civilized" bengali word by "cultured" bengali.
As far as I can recall, none of the old timers
> threatened
> people on a regular basis as is the habit of some current stalwart
> SCBites.
Who are they?
> And as for singing in the same tune, people do sing in the same tune
> here these days.
What??
Abhijit Mitra
Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
>2) If they do not like the kind of discussions on scb they should have
>their own threads
True. "They" don't start as many threads as the "saffronites" and "others" do,
that might be what is creating the appearance of a 'propoganda' machine, to use
Rajiv Shuklas words.
>their own moderated newsgroups where they can discuss without being disturbed
>by the fascist, fanatic forces.
Well on one hand theres the issue that Srabani Di hinted at earlier - that
"they" are the ones who started this NG to begin with. Of course, if they had
intended this to be "their" private domain for discourse, they should've
established a moderator. On the other hand, theres the issue of NGs being a
forum to say what you damn well please - content and quality, while most
definitely *desirable*, are not *required*.
>3) I have a feeling that the problem is more with the fact that they do
>not want us at all to express our opinions - right or wrong.
I disagree there. It probably has more to do with the fact that "they" feel
intruded upon - this was their personal space and "others" have intruded. The
fact that none of "them" took upon themselves the responsibility at conception
of this NG to be moderator speaks volumes for the security they felt - a sense
of security, that of aloofness, that has now been shattered.
>4) The character of internet ngps is such that discussions tend to be free
>for all. If you can't live with it leave it.
Or attempt to steer the conversation in the direction you want it to go in.
Srabani Banerjee
Supratik Das wrote:
[...]
> Srabanidevi ke gala galita bhul hoyechey bote - bhodromohila boroi upset.
I am touched by this show of concern - a pity it had to come from a
half-educated liar like you though.
> Keno bujhina:
>
> 1) If they do not like dissenting voices they may use the kill file.
only so that you can come back with newer names?
> 2) If they do not like the kind of discussions on scb they should have
> their own threads or even their own moderated newsgroups where they can
> discuss without being disturbed by the fascist, fanatic forces.
Or so you wish! I wish that creatures like you would squirm back
wherever you belong and leave us in peace. But as you, so correctly
observed (surprise!!!), this is a place for free discussion.
> 3) I have a feeling that the problem is more with the fact that they do
> not want us at all to express our opinions - right or wrong.
aha re! SCB-r lokera to apnader puro martyr baniye chheRe dilo.
> 4) The character of internet ngps is such that discussions tend to be free
> for all. If you can't live with it leave it.
So where was this advise when Abhijit started this entire discussion
with his objection to postings that he did not like?
Srabani
Abhijit Mitra
Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
>Either side will start a discussion first with their own biases.
Please take note here that there is no way *anyone* can ever say *anything*
that does not in any way reflect personal bias. 'Bias' in this context should
not be seen as something *bad*, per se, rather as something every human has.
The secret would be to be able to -
(1) Speak your mind and reveal your bias, but do it nicely. I dont always do
that myself, but I'm merely speaking of an idealistic discussion.
(2) Those who respond should do so in the same way, keeping an *open mind*, and
not allowing idealogical baggage to get in the way. Example, simply calling
someone a VHP or RSS member should not be sufficient to prove that he is the
Spawn of Satan; and simply calling someone a Marxist should not either.
I would particularly suggest people (including myself) to not change the
subject as a means of "winning" arguments - examples abound of those who, in
their attacks on leftism, will constantly point at Pol Pot, Stalin, etc., and
will assume that their dushkarms are in themselves arguments against leftism.
On the flip side, there are those who summarily dismiss the BJP as 'fascist,'
and theres ONE person who routinely manages to somehow include the Nazis in any
conversation on BJP - relevant or not.
Tactics like this are what starts the flame wars. Let's try to stop.
>The best way to get rid of this problem is to stop discussing political
>issues on scb altogether or maybe appoint someone as the informal moderator.
I agree with Supratik here. An informal moderator could be worked out ; there
are plenty of people on scb who are sufficiently 'neutral' to play the role.
Abhijit Mitra
Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>> I said 'around' 4 yrs.
>No, you didn't. Don't lie. Go back and read what you wrote.
Aar kichu pelenna tho ekhun eta ke nie porlen? 3.5 years, 4 years, what diff
does it make? People often say 4 as a nice round figure for 3.5; why get all
uptight over it?????
Srabani Banerjee
Abhijit Mitra wrote:
>
> Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>
> >They all came across as rather harmless, well-meaning people - an entirely
> >different breed from your religious text thumping hate-mongerers.
>
> Im sick of this 'fight.' You win, I lose.
>
> Now about the charter which you and Sambit like to bring up so much -
I don't, usually. However, this time I was prompted by your apparent
concern about the content of other people's postings.
I'll
> follow it (i.e., no politics and no religious sectarianism) if the people on
> scb who started this before me do too. You make it happen, and I *will* follow
> the lead, promise:)
Unfortunately, its not up to me, or anyone else, for that matter, to
make it happen, is it? And, I'll give this to you - I have never seen an
SCB free from politics. Whoever drafted the charter must have been
rather optimistic to think that a Bangali forum could be kept free of
political discussion. Anyway, I did see the charter being evoked at
various points - mostly to get out of a sticky situation :)
However, the bottomline is that things rarely bogged down to a mere
exchange of virulent epithets - something that seems to dominate the ng
these days. I guess that was the purpose our charter was intended to
serve - to keep a check on people. But ng-s are, obviously, not the
correct place for wish-fulfilment.
> >Garbage disgusts me, kid. Does that make me a snob?
>
> What makes one a snob (not necessarily you) is ones definition of garbage -
Since your definition of garbage can always differ from mine, you could
be as much a snob, as I am, right? What's your problem with snobbery,
anyway?
> >The `quintessential bangali bhodrolok' is a rather fast disappearing species -
> >one about which you seem to have no clue whatsoever.
>
> *sigh* Perhaps not the *quintessential* bhodrolok, but I do have a pretty good
> idea of what passes these days in the name of being a 'bhodrolok.' It's
> usually associated with an intense pride of everything Bengali (which is a
> GREAT thing),
you think so? I don't - but that's a separate topic, I guess.
but quite often associated with an intense dislike, even contempt
> at times, for things that are not - especially anything associated with the
> Hindi belt.
Examples - from this ng?
Srabani
Abhijit Mitra
Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>I am touched by this show of concern - a pity it had to come from a
>half-educated liar like you though.
Srabani Di, eto koshto kore to cease-fire-er ailaan kora holo. Abar personal
insults shuru korchen, aapni ki erekta flame-war shuru korte chaan?
Also, calling someone 'half-educated' only goes to prove what I had guessed
earlier - that you're a snob. Both of you (as far as I know) are Graduate
Students, and both in fields that are quite demanding (yes, I looked you up in
the Ohio-State webpage).
>I wish that creatures like you would squirm back wherever you belong and leave
>us in peace.
*sigh* you're all up and ready for another bout, aren't ya?
We've stopped, for the time being - I suggest you do the same.
>So where was this advise when Abhijit started this entire discussion with his
>objection to postings that he did not like?
Maybe you have an ultra-slow news server, but I apologised for that - Supratik
was giving me this advice in response to that.
Next time you decide to insult someone, try catching up first.
-A.M.
ps. May the jonogon note that neither I, nor Supratik (whos post Srabani Di
replied to) used any vulgarities (in this post nor in the post which Srabani Di
replied to). Srabani Di seems habituated to the use of personal insults, which
makes it all the more ironical that she would accuse others of the same. Also,
she seems habituated to making a public display of her snobbery. May the people
note that *this* time, she started it.
Srabani Banerjee
Abhijit Mitra wrote:
>
> Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
>
> >2) If they do not like the kind of discussions on scb they should have
> >their own threads
>
> that might be what is creating the appearance of a 'propoganda' machine, to use
`They' used to - until everything else got lost in this cacophony from
the `propaganda' machine (and I cannot better Rajiv Shukla's choice of
word here)
> >their own moderated newsgroups where they can discuss without being disturbed
> >by the fascist, fanatic forces.
>
> Well on one hand theres the issue that Srabani Di hinted at earlier - that
> "they" are the ones who started this NG to begin with. Of course, if they had
> intended this to be "their" private domain for discourse, they should've
> established a moderator.
Look, I was an `other' when I started reading and writing here. I have
seen lots of `others' come and stay. I don't think people necessarily
felt intruded upon. And, nobody wanted a moderator - not because they
did not feel the need for one - but because they didn't want one. You
would have realized this had you been here to see the volume of
objection to a propsal for auto-moderating this newsgroup.
On the other hand, theres the issue of NGs being a
> forum to say what you damn well please - content and quality, while most
> definitely *desirable*, are not *required*.
Sure - that's what we all are doing, aren't we?
> I disagree there. It probably has more to do with the fact that "they" feel
> intruded upon - this was their personal space and "others" have intruded. The
> fact that none of "them" took upon themselves the responsibility at conception
> of this NG to be moderator speaks volumes for the security they felt - a sense
> of security, that of aloofness, that has now been shattered.
Back to our snobbery theory, eh?
I am told that before SCB was formed, the most of the people who formed
it were regular readers of SCI. So I'm sure they knew then the rules of
the game as well as you do now, kid.
Srabani
Srabani Banerjee
> >No, you didn't. Don't lie. Go back and read what you wrote.
>
> Aar kichu pelenna tho ekhun eta ke nie porlen? 3.5 years, 4 years, what diff
> does it make? People often say 4 as a nice round figure for 3.5; why get all
> uptight over it?????
You don't get it at all, Abhijit. I have absolutely no problems with the
nos.
Supratik Das said 4, Rajiv Shukla said 3.5. No big deal, a simple
retraction would have sufficed - or if Supratikbabu felt the way you do
he could have simply objected. But no - he immmediately resorts to a
brazen lie. Don't you think that speaks volumes about Supratik-babu's
character?
Srabani
Abhijit Mitra
Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>Since your definition of garbage can always differ from mine, you could
>be as much a snob, as I am, right?
Right:) What one should do however, is instead of directly invoking ones
definition of garbage, one should re-examine it continously. Now thats easy to
say, and its not something I myself do all the time, but I *should*, and in my
opinion, so should others.
>What's your problem with snobbery, anyway?
I dislike it on a personal level. But it's also extremely prohibitive towards
having a real discussion.
Speaking normatively, as usual.
>you think so? I don't - but that's a separate topic, I guess.
Yes, I do. Being proud of ones culture is always good.
Why don't you start another thread telling us why you dont think it is. I'm
truly curious.
>Examples - from this ng?
Don't wanna take names... but there have been references to 'khottas' and
'hindi speaking baniyas' etc., almost always derogatorily. You can look up
those words (khotta and baniya or bania) in dejanews and you should see what I
mean.
-A.M.
Abhijit Mitra
Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>Don't you think that speaks volumes about Supratik-babu's character?
Who am I to judge someone elses character. I always prefer to give people the
benefit of the doubt, so I can only assume that he meant he thought he wrote
he meant.
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On 5 Jan 1998 12:00:36 -0500, mi...@romulus.rutgers.edu (Abhijit
Mitra) wrote:
>Tactics like this are what starts the flame wars. Let's try to stop.
Hmmm, Abhijit, you have described nicely how people should be
discussing (open biases) and responding (open mind). How about an
issue that you have ignored: open agendas.
There is only one person on the net who has a sole agenda: bengali
politics, and how we SHOULD avoid some people and embrace others.
I'll let you continue on how that can be interpreted as to a genuine
interest in bengali language and culture. And since you are so
derisive about "bengali bhadraloks", I'll let you also guess the odds
of the abuse the nettor would face if the roles were reversed ( I mean
a bengali posting to ...). I am sure you will be able to honestly
gauge this because you do have a good idea of the community I have in
mind. On my part,I have saved up the articles that Nalinakshya
received when he was booed on Axom net, maybe if nothing it would
demonstrate what "a-bhodro" responses can be.
regards, siddhartha
Abhijit Mitra
sdu...@bsu.idbsu.edu (Siddhartha Duttagupta) writes:
>How about an issue that you have ignored: open agendas.
Siddhartha, I have had this problem with your posts before and I'm having it
again - I just don't *get* it. What do you mean?
(I honestly dont understand - care to explain?)
>There is only one person on the net who has a sole agenda: bengali
>politics...
Again, I don't get it. Who is that one person?
>I'll let you continue on how that can be interpreted as to a genuine
>interest in bengali language and culture.
Huh? Your cryptic style eludes me again and again, Siddhartha. Please
understand, I'm nowhere nearly as smart as you are - try talking to me like you
would to say, a 5 yr old.
>I'll let you also guess the odds of the abuse the nettor would face if the
>roles were reversed ( I mean a bengali posting to ...). I am sure you will be
>able to honestly gauge this because you do have a good idea of the community I
>have in mind.
Okay, now I get it. Yes, I can imagine that if the roles were reversed, the
reaction would be MUCH worse than the reaction here. Well, if it makes you
feel any better, I despise the quintessential Hindi speaking Brahmin and Thakur
just as much, if not more. See, bear in mind that what I despise is not any
one particular person, but a collection of habits and traits that seem to be
abundant in a certain group of people.
Srabani Banerjee
> >half-educated liar like you though.
>
> Srabani Di, eto koshto kore to cease-fire-er ailaan kora holo.
ailaan kothar ortho ki?
Abar personal
> insults shuru korchen, aapni ki erekta flame-war shuru korte chaan?
`abar'?
> Also, calling someone 'half-educated' only goes to prove what I had guessed
> earlier - that you're a snob.
I am touched! Thank you.
Both of you (as far as I know) are Graduate
> Students, and both in fields that are quite demanding
You thought I was talking about degrees, were you? I wasn't. After some
of the gems that Supratik Das have produced on this ng, calling him
half-educated doesn't make me a snob - it makes me generous.
(yes, I looked you up in
> the Ohio-State webpage).
Why did you take all the trouble? Could have asked me - I would have
told you - right from my favourite colour to the brand of laundry
detergent I usually use.
> >I wish that creatures like you would squirm back wherever you belong and leave
> >us in peace.
>
> *sigh* you're all up and ready for another bout, aren't ya?
>
> We've stopped, for the time being - I suggest you do the same.
What?? And I thought you young turks were the ones trying to teach us a
lesson in free speech.
> >So where was this advise when Abhijit started this entire discussion with his
> >objection to postings that he did not like?
>
> Maybe you have an ultra-slow news server, but I apologised for that - Supratik
> was giving me this advice in response to that.
Wait a second. Here, I was responding to Supratik Das.
I know you apologised, but what has your apology to do with what
Supratik writes. Are you trying to tell me that you have started acting
as a group or something - and what you say can be ascribed to SD and
vice versa?
> Next time you decide to insult someone, try catching up first.
>
> ps. May the jonogon note that neither I, nor Supratik (whos post Srabani Di
> replied to) used any vulgarities (in this post nor in the post which Srabani Di
> replied to).
of course. We are playing `good boys' now, aren't we - and how can
jonogon have a choice but to follow suit?
Srabani Di seems habituated to the use of personal insults, which
> makes it all the more ironical that she would accuse others of the same.
Did I? When?
Srabani
Srabani Banerjee
>
> Who am I to judge someone elses character.
Why don't you extend the same generosity to all of us here? Why
restrict it to only the selected few with whom you share your phobia of
anything red?
I always prefer to give people the
> benefit of the doubt, so I can only assume that he meant he thought he wrote
> he meant.
:) I can only assume that you, yourself, do not know what you mean here.
Srabani
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On 5 Jan 1998 14:26:15 -0500, mi...@romulus.rutgers.edu (Abhijit
Mitra) wrote:
>Okay, now I get it.
I told you that you under-estimate yourself...or should I say you
artificially deflate yourself;))
>Yes, I can imagine that if the roles were reversed, the reaction would be MUCH worse than the reaction here.
as in "ghorotor a-bhodro" byabohar?....oh well, brownie points..
regards, siddhartha
Supratik Das
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Srabani Banerjee wrote:
> > I said 'around' 4 yrs.
> No, you didn't. Don't lie. Go back and read what you wrote.
Correct. My mistake. Please do use the word 'mistake' 'error', etc
instead of 'lie'. Lying about my yrs on scb isn't worth anything, Miss
and then if I retaliate for calling me a liar you will call me indecent
and start crying about Bengali culture going to the vultures.
I am maintaining a ceasefire you see. So mind your language, Lady, please.
Supratik Das
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Soumitra Bose wrote:
> Abhijit er songye amar jotoi motanoikko hok na keno , ami kintu
> shobshomoiei Or ei bhul kore okopote dosh shikar korar gun ke khubii
> shrodhha kori. Et saffron brigade r hole besh pholoproshu hoto.
> BTW , Abhijit bangla jane na , seta kintu ami bolini , ami saffron
> brigader kotha bolechi jar modhye matro ekjon bangla jane bole thahor hoi
> , tobe seta sototoi Abhijit noi.
I am getting the impression that some people of the 'bhadralok' variety
have difficulty in maintaining a ceasefire.
Supratik Das
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Arnab Gupta wrote:
> NC did write a book on Hinduism. I referred to it in my reply to
> Mr. Das (it's named "Hinduism, a religion to live by"). Anyway,
> here are some hilarious quotes from our exchanges on this topic
> (names of "books" by NC on Hinduism).
(Stuff deleted)
That was a good cut and paste job. You selectively picked out what suited
your point. However, as I have repeatedly mentioned why I wouldn't want to
dicuss this issue any further I won't reply to this message becoz I am
pretty sure we will go over that cycle once more.
Supratik Das
On 5 Jan 1998, Abhijit Mitra wrote:
> True. "They" don't start as many threads as the "saffronites" and "others" do,
> that might be what is creating the appearance of a 'propoganda' machine, to use
> Rajiv Shuklas words.
I think the problem is more with cross-posting and there is no ban on
anyone starting a thread.
> >their own moderated newsgroups where they can discuss without being disturbed
> >by the fascist, fanatic forces.
> Well on one hand theres the issue that Srabani Di hinted at earlier - that
> "they" are the ones who started this NG to begin with. Of course, if they had
So what? It is not that they own the ngps.
> intended this to be "their" private domain for discourse, they should've
> established a moderator. On the other hand, theres the issue of NGs being a
> forum to say what you damn well please - content and quality, while most
> definitely *desirable*, are not *required*.
Thats right.
> >3) I have a feeling that the problem is more with the fact that they do
> >not want us at all to express our opinions - right or wrong.
> I disagree there. It probably has more to do with the fact that "they" feel
> intruded upon - this was their personal space and "others" have intruded. The
But the point is that this is no ones personal space.
> fact that none of "them" took upon themselves the responsibility at conception
> of this NG to be moderator speaks volumes for the security they felt - a sense
> of security, that of aloofness, that has now been shattered.
Ummmmmm...interesting observation!!! May be we should do a careful
psychological analysis of scbites traumatized by the current onslaught of
what they perceive as a brigade, so that in future we take proper care of
scbites mental health. I am very concerned Abhijit. I do not want to go
down in history as the creator of the Scbite Syndrome (SS).
> >4) The character of internet ngps is such that discussions tend to be free
> >for all. If you can't live with it leave it.
> Or attempt to steer the conversation in the direction you want it to go in.
Thats right. Thats why the grappling.