Bengali Nationalism...?

[Ashik]

Hello People,

Someone recently asked me a questioned that I was unable to answer -- I
wonder if anyone can help...

The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to represent
Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with
Bangladesh? Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?

I would appreciate any feedback. Dhanyabad.

-Regards. Ashik.

--.--

[T.H.Sanyal.]

In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970225091911.15336B-100000@leofric>, Ashik
<as...@coventry.ac.uk> says:

>The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to represent
>Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with
>Bangladesh? Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?

Don't know about the Tagore part (although he did fight against the
first partition of Bengal). The answer to the other part is easy:
There are forces which have profited from the second partition of
Bengal and which continue to profit from the unnatural partition of
Bengal.

ths.

[asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com]

In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970225091911.15336B-100000@leofric>,

Ashik <as...@coventry.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Hello People,
>
> Someone recently asked me a questioned that I was unable to answer -- I
> wonder if anyone can help...
>

> The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to represent
> Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with
> Bangladesh? Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?
>

> I would appreciate any feedback. Dhanyabad.
>
> -Regards. Ashik.
>
> --.--

The creation of Bangladesh was a direct outcome of Pakistani political
and social blunder. The authoritative imposition of Urdu and Punjabi
hegemony was too much for a nation in euphoria to bear. Hence the demand
and successful secession. It was a symbol of Bengali nationalism from the
standpoint of linguistics.

Fortunately,West bengal never had similar problems. Economically,socially
and politically, it never felt isolated or oppressed by the rest of
India. Being secure in its Bengali identity from the inception of Indian
republic, it never saw the need to secede.

Tagore's vision in pre-partition India was a strong unified Bengal. The
Curzon attempt at dividing Bengal in 1906 was thwarted successfully in
1911, and Tagore played a major role in that. However, under the
stewardship of Hussain Muhammad Suhrawardy, the Muslim League engineered
and successfully obtained a second and more permanent partition of
Bengal, consequently uprooting many Bengalis along communal lines. This
naturally led to an era of suspicion and politico-religious parochialism
that exists to date. Hence, West Bengal felt, and feels more secure under
an Indian unbrella than under a Bangladesh one. Perhaps that would answer
your question.

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:

> The creation of Bangladesh was a direct outcome of Pakistani political
> and social blunder. The authoritative imposition of Urdu and Punjabi
> hegemony was too much for a nation in euphoria to bear.

> Fortunately,West bengal never had similar problems. Economically,socially

> and politically, it never felt isolated or oppressed by the rest of
> India. Being secure in its Bengali identity from the inception of Indian
> republic, it never saw the need to secede.

Is the latter assertion correct?

I keep reading these articles in Calcutta magazines which talk about:

*"Marwari" domination
*Hindi hegemony in TV and film
*Majority culture's encroachment on Bengali literature/culture

What are the opinions of other folks from WB on this?
--
Naeem Mohaiemen
_____________________________________________________
Everyone's your friend in New York City
And everything looks beautiful when you're young and pretty
The streets are paved with diamond and there's just so much to see
-They Might Be Giants
______________________________________________________

[N. Tiwari]

asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
: In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970225091911.15336B-100000@leofric>,

: Ashik <as...@coventry.ac.uk> wrote:
: >
: > Hello People,
: >
: > Someone recently asked me a questioned that I was unable to answer -- I
: > wonder if anyone can help...
: >
: > The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to represent
: > Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with
: > Bangladesh? Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?
: >
: > I would appreciate any feedback. Dhanyabad.
: >
: > -Regards. Ashik.
: >
: > --.--

: The creation of Bangladesh was a direct outcome of Pakistani political

: and social blunder. The authoritative imposition of Urdu and Punjabi

: hegemony was too much for a nation in euphoria to bear. Hence the demand

: and successful secession. It was a symbol of Bengali nationalism from the
: standpoint of linguistics.

: Fortunately,West bengal never had similar problems. Economically,socially

: and politically, it never felt isolated or oppressed by the rest of
: India. Being secure in its Bengali identity from the inception of Indian
: republic, it never saw the need to secede.

: Tagore's vision in pre-partition India was a strong unified Bengal. The

: Curzon attempt at dividing Bengal in 1906 was thwarted successfully in
: 1911, and Tagore played a major role in that. However, under the
: stewardship of Hussain Muhammad Suhrawardy, the Muslim League engineered
: and successfully obtained a second and more permanent partition of
: Bengal, consequently uprooting many Bengalis along communal lines. This
: naturally led to an era of suspicion and politico-religious parochialism
: that exists to date. Hence, West Bengal felt, and feels more secure under
: an Indian unbrella than under a Bangladesh one. Perhaps that would answer
: your question.

I am more or less in agreement with your post, except for the
first paragraph. The employemnt of Urdu in E. Bengali affairs
precedes the creation of Pakistani state. In early 20th century
and late 19th century, there were powerful movements, brought in
from varrious place (UP, Bihar, Persia, S. Arabia) to inculcate
true Islamic mores amongst the Muslims of E. Bengal. For whatever
reasons, these movements, which are viewed as "reform" by a lot of
Bangladeshi nationalists of current times, did help the generation
of a distinct Bangladeshi identity. The strenght of these movements
can be realized by things like:

a) In almost no time, a lot of E Bengali Muslims started demanding
that Urdu be used in their schools, instead of Bangla. The reason
advanced for that was the Bangla is a Hindu language.
b) In almost no time, a lot of Bengali Muslims assumed Persian and
midEastern names. Prior to these reform movements, the rural Bangali
Muslim had similar names to his Hindu counterparts.
c) In almost no time, Bengali Muslims tried to prove, despite all the
opposing evidence, that their genetic roots lay in midEast. This
was ridiculed by the Ashraf classes, since so far, only they could
claim a midEastern lineage. Now, an entire "quom" was doing the same.

If you are looking at the roots of the schism between the Bdeshi
and Bengali identities, you have to go back to pre-independence
era. The process of separation started with large scale conversion
to Islam, followed by rejection of Indian identity and adoption of
Islamic (or midEastern) identity. It would be silly to argue that the
Bdeshi Muslim is 100% midEastern as of today. We still see very strong
remnants of Bengaliness in his cultural mores. But, as elsewhere,
this nativeness has always been under constant attack, and is being
constantly being purged by all sorts of forces.

--
Nachiketa Tiwari

[Arnab Gupta]

Naeem wrote:

>I keep reading these articles in Calcutta magazines which talk about:
>
>*"Marwari" domination

Nothing objectionable. If Bengalis can't do business it's their fault,
not Marwaris'. I guess, there is not much truth apart from petty envy
in this accusation.

>*Hindi hegemony in TV and film

Something which the majority Bengalis (as well as Bangladeshis, as some of
the `bombai shomachar' in popular Bangladeshi magazines will show) have
wholeheartedly accepted, it has never been `thrust' upon them. In fact,
it is the fault of Bengalis that they can't come up with good entertainment.
Contrast this situation with films produced upto the sixties in Calcutta.
But then again, even in those days Hindi films were very much popular in
Bengal. The situation, I think, is in no way similar to imposition
of Urdu in East Pakistan.

>*Majority culture's encroachment on Bengali literature/culture
>

Same as above. Though I am not quite sure about the encroachment
in `literature'.

Personally, I have never felt that Bengali culture is very much distinct
from the Indian culture. A lot in it is definitely a part of `Indian'
tradition.

Thanks,
Arnab.

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

Arnab Gupta wrote:
>
> Naeem wrote:
>
> >I keep reading these articles in Calcutta magazines which talk about:

> >*Hindi hegemony in TV and film

> Something which the majority Bengalis (as well as Bangladeshis, as some of
> the `bombai shomachar' in popular Bangladeshi magazines will show) have
> wholeheartedly accepted, it has never been `thrust' upon them.

I recall reading an article in ANONDOLOK which talked about a huge
protest by Calcutta artsist because all major Bengali film artists had
been excluded from the "Cinema Cinema 100" [title?] documentary/film
which was meant to be a review of last 100 yrs of Indian cinema.

> it is the fault of Bengalis that they can't come up with good entertainment.

Koi ki shala! Amra good entertainment anthe pari ni? thako kothai
mia(n)?

"Good entertainment" ki? Karishma Kapoor (joghonnyo vile bosthu)
er "Sexy, Sexy, mujhe.. etc" agdoom-bagdoom nithombo-prodorshoni?

(..gawd, now I sound like an old fogey.. :-) )

--
Naeem Mohaiemen

[saleh tanveer]

Ashik wrote:
>
> Hello People,
>
> Someone recently asked me a questioned that I was unable to answer -- I
> wonder if anyone can help...
>
> The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to represent
> Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with
> Bangladesh? Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?
>
> I would appreciate any feedback. Dhanyabad.
>
> -Regards. Ashik.
>
> --.--

While language and culture is what most Bangladeshis strongly
identify with, one cannot disregard the underdog experiences (told and
retold many times) of the pre-partition days that our parents and
grand-parents went through. Being dominated by Hindus economically,
socially and culturally is a deeply ingrained fear among Bangladeshi
Muslims--even fifty years after partition. One cannot disregard
this aspect of collective experience/perception in
defining the Bangladeshi identity.

A language or a religion by itself is not a sufficient glue to hold
a people together.
What is needed is a sense of shared experience, history and destiny,
which is lacking among the Bengalis at large.

[Apratim Sarkar]

Very well said, Arnab!

In article <5f2bst$o2d$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> GUP...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (Arnab Gupta) writes:
>Naeem wrote:
>
>>I keep reading these articles in Calcutta magazines which talk about:
>>

>>*"Marwari" domination
>
>Nothing objectionable. If Bengalis can't do business it's their fault,
>not Marwaris'. I guess, there is not much truth apart from petty envy
>in this accusation.
>

>>*Hindi hegemony in TV and film
>
>Something which the majority Bengalis (as well as Bangladeshis, as some of
>the `bombai shomachar' in popular Bangladeshi magazines will show) have

>wholeheartedly accepted, it has never been `thrust' upon them. In fact,

>it is the fault of Bengalis that they can't come up with good entertainment.

>Contrast this situation with films produced upto the sixties in Calcutta.
>But then again, even in those days Hindi films were very much popular in
>Bengal. The situation, I think, is in no way similar to imposition
>of Urdu in East Pakistan.
>
>>*Majority culture's encroachment on Bengali literature/culture
>>
>
>Same as above. Though I am not quite sure about the encroachment
>in `literature'.
>
>Personally, I have never felt that Bengali culture is very much distinct
>from the Indian culture. A lot in it is definitely a part of `Indian'
>tradition.
>
>Thanks,
>Arnab.
>

--
Amai jodi dei tara noukati Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are
Ami tabe shatshota dNaR aNati are my own and shouldn't be construed in
Pal tule di charte pNachta chhata any way to represent that of my employer.
Mithye ghure beRai na ko hate|

[Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay]

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:

> asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
>
> > The creation of Bangladesh was a direct outcome of Pakistani political
> > and social blunder. The authoritative imposition of Urdu and Punjabi
> > hegemony was too much for a nation in euphoria to bear.

First, let me state that the ORIGINAL partition of Bengal was, in my
opinion, a "political and social blunder" made by Bengalis at the
behest of Hindi/Urdu speaking egomaniacs, and exacerbated by
British tactics (re: the original partition, 1905). To ascribe the
blunder solely to Pakistan is incorrect.

> > Fortunately,West bengal never had similar problems. Economically,socially
> > and politically, it never felt isolated or oppressed by the rest of
> > India. Being secure in its Bengali identity from the inception of Indian
> > republic, it never saw the need to secede.

Reference my paragraph above. It was indeed politically and socially
repressed around the time of "independance" (especially after the
loss of N.S.C. Bose), and the ramifications are being felt now, even
in the last bastion of Bengal left in India, Calcutta. It's not that
it never felt a need to secede, but never had a strong voice to say
so. You are mistakenly putting Bengali history as PP
("post-partition"). The actual problems and foundations of
Bangladesh/ West Bengal come earlier.

Bengalis secure in their identity? HA! Then why do my OWN COUSINS
learn to speak ENGLISH first, and beg me to take them to watch HINDI
movies (movies still being a luxury in some parts of Calcutta)? Why
are Bengalis not protesting the jamming of Dhaka radio stations by
the GOI? Why is everything WESTERN (from Coca-cola to the
"Hindustani" lifestyle) being held up as the "paragon" of
Human/Indian achievement? I think that WB is, now, even FURTHER
isolated from ITS OWN culture (i.e. Bengali) than EVER before,
irrespective of whether or not they are isolated from the world.

> Is the latter assertion correct?

No, Naeem, as I mentioned above.

> I keep reading these articles in Calcutta magazines which talk about:
>
> *"Marwari" domination

> *Hindi hegemony in TV and film

> *Majority culture's encroachment on Bengali literature/culture

There's more (although most of it will fall under the latter category)...

* Have you heard the news in Bengali, ever? All Calcutta news broadcasts are
done in Hindi or English.
* Have you seen ANYONE wearing a dhuti in WB? No one does... Western
suits and clothing have become "fashionable", even when they are the most
uncomfortable things (especially in summer). The preference for clothing
has shifted. It is definitely, now, Western. Pants > panjama > dhuti
* No Bengali (except Saurav Ganguly, and even then after many years) has been
a member of any of the Indian National Sports teams... even when the best
soccer is played in Bengal.
* Hindi graffiti all over Calcutta.
* The siphoning of Ganges water by upland people-- in UP and Bihar-- to
irrigate less productive lands, at the expense of Bengal.
* Repeated lack of funding from the GOI to repave the roads in
(for instance) Calcutta, or to make badly-needed improvements in
infrastructure and industry. All of the infrastructure money goes to
Delhi.
* Destroying the domestic and international market for jute by Western
plastic manufacturers (in states like MP, Gujarat). Essentially by
underselling and "strategic" marketing. No store, EVEN IN BENGAL, uses jute
anymore... they have all switched to (non-degradable) plastics.
*

> What are the opinions of other folks from WB on this?

Reference the above paragraphs. I hope I have given enough.

P.S. This is NOT just a class division. The "upper class" Bengalis
(as opposed to Marwaris) in Calcutta actually PERPETUATE the Hindustani
ideal, as they either (1) get some sort of societal benefit from it (i.e.
acceptance from other rich people), or (2) refuse to be associated with a
"backward" (even for India) state. In either case, it's all just
Victorian-era fluff. Hindustanis (and the rich Bengalis who emulate
them) are better Englishmen than the British.

This has been my honest opinion, as requested by a ng reader.

__________________________________________________________________________
Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay
sapt...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu

Modar Gorob | Modar Aasha | Amari Bangla BhaSha
(Our hope. Our pride. Our Bengali language.)

-- Atulprasad Sen

Let the soil and the waters and the dirt and the fruits of Bengal be holy,
my Lord!
Let the minds and the hearts of all my brothers and sisters of Bengal be one,
my Lord!

-- Rabindranath Thakur

If no one answers to your call, walk alone, walk alone
(Judhi thor dhak sunay kao na ashay, thaubay akla cholo ray)

-- Rabi Thakur (1st line of a poem)

[Arnab Gupta]

Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
>
> Arnab Gupta wrote:
> >
> > Naeem wrote:
> >

> > >I keep reading these articles in Calcutta magazines which talk about:
>

> > >*Hindi hegemony in TV and film
>

> > Something which the majority Bengalis (as well as Bangladeshis, as some of
> > the `bombai shomachar' in popular Bangladeshi magazines will show) have
> > wholeheartedly accepted, it has never been `thrust' upon them.
>

> I recall reading an article in ANONDOLOK which talked about a huge
> protest by Calcutta artsist because all major Bengali film artists had
> been excluded from the "Cinema Cinema 100" [title?] documentary/film
> which was meant to be a review of last 100 yrs of Indian cinema.
>

Naeem, erokom bichhinno aykta ghotona diye uporer point-takey
contradict korar cheshta korchhen ? "Cinema Cinema 100" shudhu
kyano, erokom aro onek ghotona paben. Apni borong bhebe dekhun Hindi
chhobir prodorshon poshchimbonge bondho korley koto boro andolon
hobey. BTW, Anondolok Bangali protishthaner, bangalider jonye
muloto hindi chhobi o kechha bishoyok potrika - ashakori ei khoborta
rakhen.

> > it is the fault of Bengalis that they can't come up with good entertainment.
>

> Koi ki shala! Amra good entertainment anthe pari ni? thako kothai
> mia(n)?
>
> "Good entertainment" ki? Karishma Kapoor (joghonnyo vile bosthu)
> er "Sexy, Sexy, mujhe.. etc" agdoom-bagdoom nithombo-prodorshoni?
>
> (..gawd, now I sound like an old fogey.. :-) )
>

Aytota baniye na nileo paarten. Tobey promaan amakey ag bariye
dyakhatey hobena, charidikey dyakhbar jonye achhei. Bangla chhobir
haal janen to ? (I mean, poshchimbonger ?)

Arnab.

p.s: Thread-tar notun je naamta dilen tar maane ki ? Karontai ba ki ?

[Soumitra Bose]

E gulo kothai Hoi?? E ki fantasy land er khobor naki. Banglai keu Dhuti
pore na ??? keu Bangla khobor shoneni ??? Banglai poster lekha hoi na
?????
AMi to jani e gulo eto beshi i hoi je ektu poriborton hole mondo hoto na
, majhe majhe bangla r mshurjo bojha jeto jodi onno kichur sathe tulona
korar sujog thakto . Kolkata r nijoshoy channele ami ki konodin hindi
khobor shunechhi ???? Ki re baba , eshob ki slesh na nichok GAndumi
......

[Faiz Kabir]

Mr. Ashik wrote :

>>>>Hello People,

Someone recently asked me a questioned that I was unable to answer --
I
wonder if anyone can help...

The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to represent
Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with
Bangladesh? Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?

I would appreciate any feedback. Dhanyabad.

-Regards. Ashik.<<<

The significance of Bangladesh was not the representation of Bangali
nationalism. It was rather for the representation of the Bangladeshi
people. The aspirations of Bangladeshi bangalis are quite different
from that of the bangalis of West Bengal. The Bangalis of West Bengal
consider themselves more Indian than Bangali. So it's obvious that
they will not join us in the name of Bangali nationalism because that
will remove their Indian identity a concept which I don't understand
well.

Sincerely,
Faiz Kabir

[Udayan Chattopadhyay]

In article <5f2bst$o2d$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
GUP...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu says...
>

>the `bombai shomachar' in popular Bangladeshi magazines will show) have

>wholeheartedly accepted, it has never been `thrust' upon them. In fact,

>it is the fault of Bengalis that they can't come up with good
entertainment.

Unfair, I think; what about US films all over the world. More to do with
money and audience - the average Hindi film has a potential global audience
of several hundred million and more can be allocated in terms of budget,
etc. Bengalis can't come up with good entertainment?? What about Kumar
Sanu, Mithun Chakrabarty, Kishore Kumar, R D Burman etc etc - no comments
about their artistic merit, but they sell in Bollywood, not to mention Runa
Laila ("Dama dam masta qalandar"), Sabina Yasmin etc.

>Contrast this situation with films produced upto the sixties in Calcutta.
>But then again, even in those days Hindi films were very much popular in
>Bengal. The situation, I think, is in no way similar to imposition
>of Urdu in East Pakistan.
>

Urdu was violently imposed: there was a violent protest
Hindi is not being "imposed" in the same way, it is encroaching in a more
dangerous, subliminal way - few notice, yaar ...

There are many school kids in Calcutta whose linguistic ability in ranking
is:

1. English
2. Hindi
3. Bengali

Compare this with Dhaka ...

>
>Personally, I have never felt that Bengali culture is very much distinct
>from the Indian culture. A lot in it is definitely a part of `Indian'
>tradition.
>

Eksho baar ... but Hindi does not = India alone :)

Let's also not forget that Bengali no longer = subset of India ...

[sayan bhattacharyya]

Naeem Mohaiemen <naeem.m...@homebox.com> wrote:
>
>I keep reading these articles in Calcutta magazines which talk about:
>
>*"Marwari" domination
>*Hindi hegemony in TV and film
>*Majority culture's encroachment on Bengali literature/culture
>

Domination and hegemony are concepts that really apply in the
context of class, not in the context of ethnicity. If the factory
owner oppresses and exploits his workers, usually it is not because
the factory owner and the workers belong to different ethnicities.
It is because the owner and the workers have different class
interests. It is basically an economic issue, not an ethnic one.

In the struggle of the Kanoria Jute mill workers, Bengali labor
fought side by side with Hindi-speaking migrant labor from Bihar and
Oriya-speaking migrant labor from Orissa who all were WORKERS --
that they were Bengalis, Biharis or Oriyas was completely incidental.
Similarly the fact that the owner was Marwari was completely
irrelevant.

What is important is to understand the relations of production
in the base. Ethnicity is a cultural construct and belongs to
the superstructure of society, not to the base of society. It
is the base, not the superstructure, which is the prime mover
and engine of history. This is why questions relating to
ethnic and identity politics, being secondary, do not interest me.

To frame the issue, as the "Calcutta magazines" quoted by Naeem
seem to have done, in terms of ethnicity, misses the point entirely.
Not only that, it plays right into the hands of the forces of
darkness by encouraging divisiveness along ethnic fault lines.

The real fault lines in society are along class lines, not along
ethnic lines. The forces of darkness, of course, would like to keep
us divided. Nothing makes them happier than when we buy into this
kind of petty ethnic subnationalism and engage in self-destroying
identity politics while ignoring the real underlying economic questions.

>What are the opinions of other folks from WB on this?

There, Naeem, you have the opinion of one opinionated person
from West Bengal (me).

[Udayan Chattopadhyay]

In article <3314C2...@math.uchicago.edu>, tan...@math.uchicago.edu
says...

>
>Ashik wrote:
>>
>> Hello People,
>>
>> Someone recently asked me a questioned that I was unable to answer -- I
>> wonder if anyone can help...
>>
>> The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to represent
>> Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with
>> Bangladesh? Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?
>>
>> I would appreciate any feedback. Dhanyabad.
>>
>> -Regards. Ashik.
>>

>> --.--
>
> While language and culture is what most Bangladeshis strongly
> identify with, one cannot disregard the underdog experiences (told and
> retold many times) of the pre-partition days that our parents and
> grand-parents went through. Being dominated by Hindus economically,
> socially and culturally is a deeply ingrained fear among Bangladeshi
> Muslims--even fifty years after partition. One cannot disregard
> this aspect of collective experience/perception in
> defining the Bangladeshi identity.
>
> A language or a religion by itself is not a sufficient glue to hold
>a people together.
> What is needed is a sense of shared experience, history and destiny,
> which is lacking among the Bengalis at large.

Surely, this is "Bangladeshi nationalism" and not "Bengali nationalism"

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

Arnab Gupta wrote:

> Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:

> > I recall reading an article in ANONDOLOK which talked about a huge
> > protest by Calcutta artsist because all major Bengali film artists had
> > been excluded from the "Cinema Cinema 100" [title?] documentary/film
> > which was meant to be a review of last 100 yrs of Indian cinema.

> Naeem, erokom bichhinno aykta ghotona diye uporer point-takey
> contradict korar cheshta korchhen ? "Cinema Cinema 100" shudhu
> kyano, erokom aro onek ghotona paben.

Ekta ghotona post korlam dekhabar jonno je thomar kotha thik noi-- not
everyone is 100% happy, and not everyone feels bengali culture is
getting equal shake.

> Apni borong bhebe dekhun Hindi
> chhobir prodorshon poshchimbonge bondho korley koto boro andolon
> hobey.

Bondho korar kotha koi bollam? Oneke-i eta pochondo kore, that tho deny
korchi na. Shudhu bolchi, oneke chai, er pashahpashi bangla film, etc
aro jaiga pak.

> BTW, Anondolok Bangali protishthaner, bangalider jonye
> muloto hindi chhobi o kechha bishoyok potrika - ashakori ei khoborta
> rakhen.

"asha kori e khobor rakhen"..

Patronizing sentence er jonno dhonnobad. Are you unable to have a
debate without sinking to personal attacks?

> > "Good entertainment" ki? Karishma Kapoor (joghonnyo vile bosthu)
> > er "Sexy, Sexy, mujhe.. etc" agdoom-bagdoom nithombo-prodorshoni?

> Aytota baniye na nileo paarten.

Baniye? Orthath ey gaan ti exist kore na?

> p.s: Thread-tar notun je naamta dilen tar maane ki ? Karontai ba ki ?

Frivolity.

--
Naeem Mohaiemen

[Nazmul Hoque]

saleh tanveer wrote:
>
> Ashik wrote:
> >
> > Hello People,
> >
> > Someone recently asked me a questioned that I was unable to answer -- I
> > wonder if anyone can help...
> >
> > The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to represent
> > Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with
> > Bangladesh? Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?
> >
> > I would appreciate any feedback. Dhanyabad.
> >
> > -Regards. Ashik.
> >
> > --.--
>
> While language and culture is what most Bangladeshis strongly
> identify with, one cannot disregard the underdog experiences (told and
> retold many times) of the pre-partition days that our parents and
> grand-parents went through. Being dominated by Hindus economically,
> socially and culturally is a deeply ingrained fear among Bangladeshi
> Muslims--even fifty years after partition. One cannot disregard
> this aspect of collective experience/perception in
> defining the Bangladeshi identity.
>
> A language or a religion by itself is not a sufficient glue to hold
> a people together.
> What is needed is a sense of shared experience, history and destiny,
> which is lacking among the Bengalis at large.

Moha-Barat was partitioned along religious lines because the identity,
culture of the people were shaped by the religion they followed. And
the Muslim leaders of the time envisaged that the Hindus would dominate
Muslims politically. Hence, India and East/West Pakistan was created.

Bangladesh was created because the Pakistani ruling elite denied the
rights of the people of Bangladesh to have a part in the running of the
state. As a reaction to this Bangladeshi nationalism was propagated by
the leaders of then East Pakistan. West Bengal did not come into the
equation, it is only now people are bringing this issue up of Bengali
Nationalism.

The unification of B'desh with WB will not be possible just by Bengali
nationalism alone. Nationalism is a sub-human form of bonding, it is
primitive. Wherever nationalism is strong so is racism. Many of us who
are living in Western countries will testify to that.

Nazmul

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:

> There are many school kids in Calcutta whose linguistic ability in ranking
> is:
>
> 1. English
> 2. Hindi
> 3. Bengali
>
> Compare this with Dhaka ...

Which would be

1. Bengali

--
Naeem Mohaiemen

[Arnab Gupta]

Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
>
> Arnab Gupta wrote:
>
> > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
>
> > > I recall reading an article in ANONDOLOK which talked about a huge
> > > protest by Calcutta artsist because all major Bengali film artists had
> > > been excluded from the "Cinema Cinema 100" [title?] documentary/film
> > > which was meant to be a review of last 100 yrs of Indian cinema.
>
> > Naeem, erokom bichhinno aykta ghotona diye uporer point-takey
> > contradict korar cheshta korchhen ? "Cinema Cinema 100" shudhu
> > kyano, erokom aro onek ghotona paben.
>
> Ekta ghotona post korlam dekhabar jonno je thomar kotha thik noi-- not
> everyone is 100% happy, and not everyone feels bengali culture is
> getting equal shake.
>

Statistically insignificant - Hindi chhobir popularity-r tulonai
noshyi. Etar bhittitey `hindi chapiye deoa hochhe' bolata ektu
barabari hoye jai.

> > Apni borong bhebe dekhun Hindi
> > chhobir prodorshon poshchimbonge bondho korley koto boro andolon
> > hobey.
>
> Bondho korar kotha koi bollam? Oneke-i eta pochondo kore, that tho deny
> korchi na. Shudhu bolchi, oneke chai, er pashahpashi bangla film, etc
> aro jaiga pak.
>

Apni point thheke shorey jachhen. Apni hindi-r hegemony-r kotha boltey
cheyechhilen. Statistics diye sheta promaan apni kortey parben na.

Ar aykta kotha, bangla chhobi-r jaiga bangalider nijeder kore nitey
hobey. Keu tader badha dichhe na. Shutorang ekhaneo hindir hegemony
byaparta bojha gyalo na.

> > BTW, Anondolok Bangali protishthaner, bangalider jonye
> > muloto hindi chhobi o kechha bishoyok potrika - ashakori ei khoborta
> > rakhen.
>
> "asha kori e khobor rakhen"..
>
> Patronizing sentence er jonno dhonnobad. Are you unable to have a
> debate without sinking to personal attacks?
>

Eta dubhabe dhortey paaren.

1."Frivolity"
2. Apnar bhut dyakhar obhyesh. Jyamon Sunil Gangulir odrishyo haat
dekhechhilan Taslima-r byaparey. Ashakori promaan diye badhito
korben.

> > > "Good entertainment" ki? Karishma Kapoor (joghonnyo vile bosthu)
> > > er "Sexy, Sexy, mujhe.. etc" agdoom-bagdoom nithombo-prodorshoni?
>
> > Aytota baniye na nileo paarten.
>
> Baniye? Orthath ey gaan ti exist kore na?
>

Na, exist korey. Tobey ami "good entertainment" boltey ja bolechhilam
shetake jekhaney extrapolate korlen, shetar kotha bolchhilam.
Aar aykta byapar, amar oi "good" kothata byabohaar kora bhul hoyechhilo.
Karon, proshno-ta good-bad'er na. Bangali (at least poshchimbonger
Bangali) cinemai konorokom entertainment-er byabosthai kortey paaren na,
aymon ki "sexy sexy sexy"r moto-o na.

> > p.s: Thread-tar notun je naamta dilen tar maane ki ? Karontai ba ki ?
>
> Frivolity.
>

jananor jonye dhonyobaad. Apnar hindi chapiye deoar obhijog-gulo-o
onekta tari jonye boley amar dharona.

Arnab.

[Arnab Gupta]

Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:
>
> In article <5f2bst$o2d$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
> GUP...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu says...
> >
>
> >the `bombai shomachar' in popular Bangladeshi magazines will show) have
> >wholeheartedly accepted, it has never been `thrust' upon them. In fact,
> >it is the fault of Bengalis that they can't come up with good
> entertainment.
>
> Unfair, I think; what about US films all over the world. More to do with
> money and audience - the average Hindi film has a potential global audience
> of several hundred million and more can be allocated in terms of budget,
> etc.

How does this explain the situation upto the sixties, or may be
the early seventies. Bengali films used to do quite good business
upto that time, isn't it ?

Bengalis can't come up with good entertainment?? What about Kumar
> Sanu, Mithun Chakrabarty, Kishore Kumar, R D Burman etc etc - no comments
> about their artistic merit, but they sell in Bollywood, not to mention Runa
> Laila ("Dama dam masta qalandar"), Sabina Yasmin etc.
>

Sure they can. The names you have mentioned are capable of doing
that (I am not considering personal opinions here). The problem is,
there is no effort to get their talents together and produce a good
film, a quality entertainment that can see some money and do some
good business comparable to what Hindi films do *in West Bengal*.
Surely, the Bengalis are to be blamed for not coming up with these
types of entertainments, not `hindi hegemony'.

> >Contrast this situation with films produced upto the sixties in Calcutta.
> >But then again, even in those days Hindi films were very much popular in
> >Bengal. The situation, I think, is in no way similar to imposition
> >of Urdu in East Pakistan.
> >
>
> Urdu was violently imposed: there was a violent protest
> Hindi is not being "imposed" in the same way, it is encroaching in a more
> dangerous, subliminal way - few notice, yaar ...
>

No problem if people accept it wholeheartedly. If Bengalis want to
forget their culture or their heritage it's their fault, not others'.

> There are many school kids in Calcutta whose linguistic ability in ranking
> is:
>
> 1. English
> 2. Hindi
> 3. Bengali
>

I don't think the situation in Calcutta, a cosmopolitan city, reflects
in any way the situation all over West Bengal. Anyway, in Calcutta
also, my experiences will place the linguistic abilities as:

1. Bengali
2. Hindi
3. English

I admit though, that your ranking is correct for a small group of
Calcuttans based in some pockets in and around the southern part of the
city.

> Compare this with Dhaka ...
>

No idea.

> >
> >Personally, I have never felt that Bengali culture is very much distinct
> >from the Indian culture. A lot in it is definitely a part of `Indian'
> >tradition.
> >
>
> Eksho baar ... but Hindi does not = India alone :)
>

Eksho baar.

> Let's also not forget that Bengali no longer = subset of India ...

Boro torko hoye jaabe, ete jetey chai na.

Thanks,
Arnab.

[sayan bhattacharyya]

Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Unfair, I think; what about US films all over the world. More to do with
>> money and audience - the average Hindi film has a potential global audience
>> of several hundred million and more can be allocated in terms of budget,
>> etc.
>
>How does this explain the situation upto the sixties, or may be
>the early seventies. Bengali films used to do quite good business
>upto that time, isn't it ?

I think there is a simple explanation for that. Up until the 60s,
films weren't as expensive to make as they became later. So the
industry wasn't as capital-intensive as it was to become later,
and consequently, players with lesser capital at their disposal
could still be effective players in the market.

Note also that a lot (most?) of the capital invested in Bollywood
is supposed to come from the underworld economy (i.e. the film
industry is a good way for money laundering). The underworld
economy in Bombay is very large, thanks to the Bombay-based mafia
dons.

[Arnab Gupta]

sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> Unfair, I think; what about US films all over the world. More to do with
> >> money and audience - the average Hindi film has a potential global audience
> >> of several hundred million and more can be allocated in terms of budget,
> >> etc.
> >
> >How does this explain the situation upto the sixties, or may be
> >the early seventies. Bengali films used to do quite good business
> >upto that time, isn't it ?
>
> I think there is a simple explanation for that. Up until the 60s,
> films weren't as expensive to make as they became later. So the
> industry wasn't as capital-intensive as it was to become later,
> and consequently, players with lesser capital at their disposal
> could still be effective players in the market.
>

Good point. But does the same theory apply to other regional film
industries in India, like Telegu or Tamil or Malayalam ..?

Arnab.

...[deleted]..

[Apratim Sarkar]

Bengali culture niye alochona hochchhe dekhe khub bhalo laglo. Jatobar
e'i niye alochona hoy amar ekta standard proshno thake. Ekhono obdhi
uttor paini, jodiyo onek stalwart'der jigesh korechhi.

Byapar'ta e'irakom. Ami janmosutre Bangali, tobe Bangali culture'ta ekhono
thik bujhe uthte pairini. Bangali culture'e cultured hote chai. E byapare
keu amake ekta crash course dite parle upokrito habo. Fol pele parishromik
dite raji.

Mone hochchhe e'i thread'e onek'e achhen jara Bangla culture jinish'ti gule
kheyechhen. Arnab bade. O je e'i niye kichhu bojhe na sheta ekdom clear.
Baki'ra amake jodi ektu help korte paren. Handicap prochur. Dhuti porte pari
na. Ekkale Bachchan hobar shokh chhilo, height'e kuloy ni. Majhe majhe Hindi
gaan'o shuni. Engreji'o.

E'i aboshtha'te, antoto baRi'te jangiya-pentalun chheRe dhuti-ijer
porte shuru korle upokar pabo ki?

Dhonyobadante, Binito,
Apratim.

[Arnab Gupta]

Tumi to bolei diyechho amar kotha shunbey na...tobu boli:

`Progressive' howar cheshta korey dekhtey paaro. Ota sufficient
na holeo necessary condition boley mone hoi. :-)

Arnab.

[sayan bhattacharyya]

Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:

>sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>>
>> I think there is a simple explanation for that. Up until the 60s,
>> films weren't as expensive to make as they became later. So the
>> industry wasn't as capital-intensive as it was to become later,
>> and consequently, players with lesser capital at their disposal
>> could still be effective players in the market.
>>
>
>Good point. But does the same theory apply to other regional film
>industries in India, like Telegu or Tamil or Malayalam ..?

For reasons of linguistic cognate-ness, Hindi is much more
comprehensible to a native speaker of Bengali than it is to
a native speaker of the Dravidian languages you mention. Thus,
Hindi film wasn't able to make as much headway into the
Dravidian market as it could into the Bengali market. In support
of this claim, I would like to submit that none of the strong
regional-language film industries in India are in the North,
where Hindi is fairly comprehensible.

[sayan bhattacharyya]

Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:

>> Bangali culture'e cultured hote chai.
>

>`Progressive' howar cheshta korey dekhtey paaro. Ota sufficient
>na holeo necessary condition boley mone hoi.

Arnab is wrong. There are many non-progressive Bengalis. So
being progressive is neither necessary nor sufficient for
being a Bengali.

Don't forget that people like police officer Runu Guhoniyogi
are also Bengalis. In fact it is heard that in some quarters
the latter is regarded these days as a highly cultured Bengali.

Kintu Runu-babu-ke
"progressive" opobad tNar porom shotru-o nischoy debe na.

Maybe Apratim can think of emulating him. sap-o morbe,
laTHi-o bhangbe na. "Cultured Bangali" howa-o hobe,
"progressive" howar-o dorkar poRbe na. Kemon moja.

[Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya]

Hindi imposition is done in a very subtle way. I have been told that it
is our patriotic duty to learn Hindi. I have seen offensive slogans in
Railway Offices which said "Sachhe Bhartiya Baniye, Hindi Sikhiye" (Be a
true Indian, learn Hindi).

Some of my experiences of insidious creeping of Hindi (and neglect of
Bengali) in Calcutta

1. The other day I rang up a number in Calcutta. A mechanised voice
informed me that the number has changed and the new number was....... The
whole message was in Hindi and English ONLY.

2. The name tags of the metro railway employees are in English and Hindi
ONLY.

3. In Indian Institute of Management, Calcutta, there were signs saying
"Don't pluck the flowers", Don't walk on the grass". etc. The signs were
on English and Bengali. I wrote to the director, saying that Bengali
signs should also be posted. I did not get any reply.

4.I have found a section of the Bengalis to try to talk in English
whenever possible. In certain cases the conversation was very peculier-I
talked in Bengali and the other party replied in English.

5.In Taj Bengal, once I had to go and meet somebody. I approached the
reception and asked for the persons room number and the permission to use
the house phone. The women in the counter was Bengali (the name tag
showed a Bengali surname). All my questions were in Bengali and all her
replies were in English.

6.In the Railway booking offices in Calcutta, reservation forms (forms
which you have to fill up before making a reservation) are in Hindi and
English ONLY.

Note: The above instances are about 2.5 years old.

I would also like to narrate an amusing incident that happened to me. For
some time I worked for Indian Railways. One fine morning I found that my
increment has been stopped on the ground that I do not have a
qualification in Hindi. I was very angry. I went and studied Official
Languages Act and Official Languages Rules. Rule 10 (a) listed the
conditions required for a candidate to be deemed proficient in Hindi.
Rule 10 (b) declared that a candidate shall also be deemed proficient in
Hindi if he/she declares in the format given in annexure IIB that he/she
has proficiency in Hindi.
I opened Annexture IIB and it read " I so and so hereby declare that I
have proficiency in Hindi in view of the following....." I asked the
Hindi Officer what "in view of the following" meant. He said that I would
have to justify my claim. I gave the following three reasons

1. I passed the Rajbhasha examination in Railway Staff College Baroda.
2. I see one Hindi movie every week and I am able to follow it completely
from beginning till end.
3. I stayed in Bihar for four years and had to communicate with the local
people in Hindi.

Accounts raised some verbal objection with respect to my second
justification. I told them to justify in writing why my explanation is
not acceptable to them. After that, they thought it better to give me the
increment rather than justify why my reasoning is not acceptable to them.
I learnt a most important lesson- lampooning is a very effective weapon
while dealing with hide bound bureaucracy.

Let me add that I know Hindi and I prefer to converse with my Hindi
speaking friends in Hindi. What gets my goat are the following

a)An assertion that learning Hindi is my patriotic duty.
b)An assertion that we all must learn Hindi to foster unity.
c)An exclamation of surprise on learning that I speak Bengali at home and
a query after that asking me why should not I attempt to use the
"National Language" in my home.

I have personally faced all the situation outlined above. It was not funny.

_______
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya

--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya

--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya

[Arnab Gupta]

Sayan Bhattacharya wrote:

>Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>>>
>>> I think there is a simple explanation for that. Up until the 60s,
>>> films weren't as expensive to make as they became later. So the
>>> industry wasn't as capital-intensive as it was to become later,
>>> and consequently, players with lesser capital at their disposal
>>> could still be effective players in the market.
>>>
>>
>>Good point. But does the same theory apply to other regional film
>>industries in India, like Telegu or Tamil or Malayalam ..?
>
>
>For reasons of linguistic cognate-ness, Hindi is much more
>comprehensible to a native speaker of Bengali than it is to
>a native speaker of the Dravidian languages you mention. Thus,
>Hindi film wasn't able to make as much headway into the
>Dravidian market as it could into the Bengali market.

This does not address the `capital' issue. Also, hindi films have
got quite a good market down south. In any case, the truth is if
there is a demand for regional language films, funds are not a
problem. Bengali films produced after the seventies are just
too weak to attract audiences. Quality of films did play a major
role here.

In support
>of this claim, I would like to submit that none of the strong
>regional-language film industries in India are in the North,
>where Hindi is fairly comprehensible.

There was *never* any strong regional-language film industry in the
North apart from Bengali (though Marathi film industry deserves a
mention).

Thanks,
Arnab.

[Apratim Sarkar]

Tahole tumi bolchho Sayan runubabu'ke emulate korle cultured
Bangali hote parbo?

[Apratim Sarkar]

Apni shobshmoi eto Engreji'te kotha bolen kyano bolun to Nalinakshababu?
Post to korchhen SCB duto'te. Banglai bolun.

Apratim.

PS: Otherwise ja bolechhen ekdom thik bolechhen. Kintu tar shonge Bangla
culture'r opor Hindi chapiye deowa'r ekanto shamanya shamporko achhe.
Bangla culture nijei nijer paye kuRul marchhe, external influence nei ta
na, kintu negligible.

Noile Ashok Mitra Academy pan!?

[Arnab Gupta]

sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>
> >> Bangali culture'e cultured hote chai.
> >
> >`Progressive' howar cheshta korey dekhtey paaro. Ota sufficient
> >na holeo necessary condition boley mone hoi.
>

aykta smiley chhilo, sheta baad diley kyano ?

> Arnab is wrong. There are many non-progressive Bengalis. So
> being progressive is neither necessary nor sufficient for
> being a Bengali.
>

Proshnota-to Bangali howar na, Bangali `culture'e `cultured'
howar.

> Don't forget that people like police officer Runu Guhoniyogi
> are also Bengalis. In fact it is heard that in some quarters
> the latter is regarded these days as a highly cultured Bengali.
>

kortey paare, according to their definition of `culture'.

> Kintu Runu-babu-ke
> "progressive" opobad tNar porom shotru-o nischoy debe na.
>

dilei ba kaar ki ? Shunechhi uni naki bondi-der otyachar korar
byaparey besh innovative chhilen. Aykdik thheke `progressive'
hoito!

> Maybe Apratim can think of emulating him. sap-o morbe,
> laTHi-o bhangbe na. "Cultured Bangali" howa-o hobe,
> "progressive" howar-o dorkar poRbe na. Kemon moja.

Shudhu eta mojar ? Nijeder mot-ke `progressive' boley dhNyara
petanota bhishon mojar na ?

Arnab.

[Sambit Basu]

asa...@us.oracle.com (Apratim Sarkar) writes:

>Bangla culture nijei nijer paye kuRul marchhe, external influence nei ta
>na, kintu negligible.

>Noile Ashok Mitra Academy pan!?

Tobe je bolle bangla culture bojho na?

Sambit

[Udayan Chattopadhyay]

In article <33158E...@homebox.com>, naeem.m...@homebox.com says...

>
>Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:
>
>> There are many school kids in Calcutta whose linguistic ability in
ranking
>> is:
>>
>> 1. English
>> 2. Hindi
>> 3. Bengali
>>

>> Compare this with Dhaka ...
>

>Which would be
>
>1. Bengali
>
>--
>Naeem Mohaiemen

Aarey, Naeem bhai, amar subtlety effort ta ke dhongsho kore dilen :(

[sayan bhattacharyya]

Arnab Gupta <GUP...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:

>Sayan Bhattacharya wrote:
>
>>Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:

>>>sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think there is a simple explanation for that. Up until the 60s,
>>>> films weren't as expensive to make as they became later. So the
>>>> industry wasn't as capital-intensive as it was to become later,
>>>> and consequently, players with lesser capital at their disposal
>>>> could still be effective players in the market.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Good point. But does the same theory apply to other regional film
>>>industries in India, like Telegu or Tamil or Malayalam ..?
>>
>>
>>For reasons of linguistic cognate-ness, Hindi is much more
>>comprehensible to a native speaker of Bengali than it is to
>>a native speaker of the Dravidian languages you mention. Thus,
>>Hindi film wasn't able to make as much headway into the
>>Dravidian market as it could into the Bengali market.
>
>This does not address the `capital' issue.

It does. If many people in region A simply don't understand Hindi,
then they have no option but to see local-language films. This
increases the box-office receipts for local-language films, thus
generating more capital to invest in the local-language film
industry. There is a feedback loop here with positive feedback.

On the other hand, if most people in region B do understand
Hindi, then local-language films in region B are competing
with Hindi films for the _same_ segment of the market. Thus
box-office receipts will not be as large, consequently there
is less capital to invest.

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

Arnab Gupta wrote:
>
> Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
> >
> > Arnab Gupta wrote:
> >
> > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
> >
> > > > I recall reading an article in ANONDOLOK which talked about a huge
> > > > protest by Calcutta artsist because all major Bengali film artists had
> > > > been excluded from the "Cinema Cinema 100" [title?] documentary/film
> > > > which was meant to be a review of last 100 yrs of Indian cinema.
> >
> > > Naeem, erokom bichhinno aykta ghotona diye uporer point-takey
> > > contradict korar cheshta korchhen ?

> > Ekta ghotona post korlam dekhabar jonno je thomar kotha thik noi-- not

> > everyone is 100% happy, and not everyone feels bengali culture is
> > getting equal shake.

> Statistically insignificant - Hindi chhobir popularity-r tulonai
> noshyi. Etar bhittitey `hindi chapiye deoa hochhe' bolata ektu
> barabari hoye jai.

Hya statistically significant noi. Amar kache anecdotes chara ar kichu
nei.

If you recall, my original post was posed as a questions. Through
debate, we may eventually find out what the actual case is.

Of course, you seem to want to draw a FINAL conslusion as soon as the
debate starts.

> > Bondho korar kotha koi bollam? Oneke-i eta pochondo kore, that tho deny
> > korchi na. Shudhu bolchi, oneke chai, er pashahpashi bangla film, etc
> > aro jaiga pak.

> Apni point thheke shorey jachhen. Apni hindi-r hegemony-r kotha boltey
> cheyechhilen. Statistics diye sheta promaan apni kortey parben na.

Na, point theke shore jai ni.

Statistics amar kache nei-- sheta agei shikar korechi. Amar original
post kono stats er basis e chilo na.

Kichu anecdote ache.

Shegulo jodi unrepresentative hoi, thobe WB er lok-jon (e.g Saptarshi,
Soumitro, Shoumyo) nishcoi likhe bolbe "Na egulo representative noi".
Sheta-kei tho bole debate.

> > > BTW, Anondolok Bangali protishthaner, bangalider jonye
> > > muloto hindi chhobi o kechha bishoyok potrika - ashakori ei khoborta
> > > rakhen.
> >
> > "asha kori e khobor rakhen"..
> >
> > Patronizing sentence er jonno dhonnobad. Are you unable to have a
> > debate without sinking to personal attacks?

> Eta dubhabe dhortey paaren.
>
> 1."Frivolity"

Bangali ke high court dekhano. Thumi borabor patronizing bhabe amar
post er response koro.

> 2. Apnar bhut dyakhar obhyesh. Jyamon Sunil Gangulir odrishyo haat
> dekhechhilan Taslima-r byaparey. Ashakori promaan diye badhito
> korben.

odrisshyo shudhu noi, kalo.. :-)

[eta frivolity chilo. baba Arnab, eta nie abar nothun thread shuru koro
na]

> > > > "Good entertainment" ki? Karishma Kapoor (joghonnyo vile bosthu)
> > > > er "Sexy, Sexy, mujhe.. etc" agdoom-bagdoom nithombo-prodorshoni?
> >
> > > Aytota baniye na nileo paarten.
> >
> > Baniye? Orthath ey gaan ti exist kore na?
> >
>
> Na, exist korey. Tobey ami "good entertainment" boltey ja bolechhilam
> shetake jekhaney extrapolate korlen, shetar kotha bolchhilam.

A good point. "Sexy. sexy" is an extreme example. Thobe, jehetho
Dhaka-e STAR TV lowest common denominator er dike chote, Karishma is
over-represented to us. Shamana Azmi's FIRE, etc-- eshob er tiki
porjontho amra dekhthe pai na (borong NY e eshe dekhthe hoi)

> > > p.s: Thread-tar notun je naamta dilen tar maane ki ? Karontai ba ki ?
> >
> > Frivolity.
> >
>
> jananor jonye dhonyobaad. Apnar hindi chapiye deoar obhijog-gulo-o
> onekta tari jonye boley amar dharona.

Na, ekta serious debate korthe chacchilam.

Hothe-i pare, I am wrong. But how will I know without debating.
Already Saptarshi, etc onnyo der post theke janchi, amar kichu idea
thik, kichu 100% bhool. Kinthu thumi debate na kore personal attack
korthe chaccho.

Your attitude seems to be: "How dare you even bring this topic up?"

--
Naeem Mohaiemen
_____________________________________________________
Everyone's your friend in New York City
And everything looks beautiful when you're young and pretty
The streets are paved with diamond and there's just so much to see
-They Might Be Giants
______________________________________________________

[Apratim Sarkar]

In article <3316EF...@homebox.com> naeem.m...@homebox.com writes:

>Kichu anecdote ache.
>
>Shegulo jodi unrepresentative hoi, thobe WB er lok-jon (e.g Saptarshi,
>Soumitro, Shoumyo) nishcoi likhe bolbe "Na egulo representative noi".
>Sheta-kei tho bole debate.

:-)

Apratim.

[Arnab Gupta]

Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:

..[deleted]..

> > Statistically insignificant - Hindi chhobir popularity-r tulonai
> > noshyi. Etar bhittitey `hindi chapiye deoa hochhe' bolata ektu
> > barabari hoye jai.
>
> Hya statistically significant noi. Amar kache anecdotes chara ar kichu
> nei.
>
> If you recall, my original post was posed as a questions. Through
> debate, we may eventually find out what the actual case is.
>
> Of course, you seem to want to draw a FINAL conslusion as soon as the
> debate starts.
>

Aykta proshno kori:

`Hindi hegemony' byapartar apnar aykta mapkathi achhe nishchoi.
Sheta ki ? (honest proshno, marpNyach dekhben na please).

> > > Bondho korar kotha koi bollam? Oneke-i eta pochondo kore, that tho deny
> > > korchi na. Shudhu bolchi, oneke chai, er pashahpashi bangla film, etc
> > > aro jaiga pak.
>
> > Apni point thheke shorey jachhen. Apni hindi-r hegemony-r kotha boltey
> > cheyechhilen. Statistics diye sheta promaan apni kortey parben na.
>
> Na, point theke shore jai ni.
>
> Statistics amar kache nei-- sheta agei shikar korechi. Amar original
> post kono stats er basis e chilo na.
>

> Kichu anecdote ache.
>
> Shegulo jodi unrepresentative hoi, thobe WB er lok-jon (e.g Saptarshi,
> Soumitro, Shoumyo) nishcoi likhe bolbe "Na egulo representative noi".
> Sheta-kei tho bole debate.
>

Amar dharona `statistics'er boro aykta (hoito purotai) bhumika
thhakey `hegemony' gochher aykta byaparey. Kothata jokhon
`Bengali identity' chole jachhe kina niye shuru hoyechhilo
(ebong shey jonne secede kora jai kina, erokom aykta gurutoro
byapar niye), tokhon `majority of the population' ki chai tar
proshno oboshyombhabi hoye othey (urdu chapano niye Bangladesh-e
ja hoyechhilo). Statistically, poshchimbonge ei `chapiye deoa'
proshno othei na, sheta apnio janen. Taholey ki karoney
erokom aykta byaparer shotto-ta niye proshno jaage apnaar mone ?
Debate korar jonye debate korar to kono maane hoina!

> > > > BTW, Anondolok Bangali protishthaner, bangalider jonye
> > > > muloto hindi chhobi o kechha bishoyok potrika - ashakori ei khoborta
> > > > rakhen.
> > >
> > > "asha kori e khobor rakhen"..
> > >
> > > Patronizing sentence er jonno dhonnobad. Are you unable to have a
> > > debate without sinking to personal attacks?
>
> > Eta dubhabe dhortey paaren.
> >
> > 1."Frivolity"
>
> Bangali ke high court dekhano. Thumi borabor patronizing bhabe amar
> post er response koro.
>

Mone hoye thhakle du:khito. Etukui boltey pari sheta `intentional'
noy. By the way, debate korar shomoi "Koi ki shala!..." boley
ultodiker kotha uriye deoatao khub `formal' noi.

> > 2. Apnar bhut dyakhar obhyesh. Jyamon Sunil Gangulir odrishyo haat
> > dekhechhilan Taslima-r byaparey. Ashakori promaan diye badhito
> > korben.
>
> odrisshyo shudhu noi, kalo.. :-)
>
> [eta frivolity chilo. baba Arnab, eta nie abar nothun thread shuru koro
> na]
>

maane ki iyarkitar ?

> > > > > "Good entertainment" ki? Karishma Kapoor (joghonnyo vile bosthu)
> > > > > er "Sexy, Sexy, mujhe.. etc" agdoom-bagdoom nithombo-prodorshoni?
> > >
> > > > Aytota baniye na nileo paarten.
> > >
> > > Baniye? Orthath ey gaan ti exist kore na?
> > >
> >
> > Na, exist korey. Tobey ami "good entertainment" boltey ja bolechhilam
> > shetake jekhaney extrapolate korlen, shetar kotha bolchhilam.
>
> A good point. "Sexy. sexy" is an extreme example. Thobe, jehetho
> Dhaka-e STAR TV lowest common denominator er dike chote, Karishma is
> over-represented to us. Shamana Azmi's FIRE, etc-- eshob er tiki
> porjontho amra dekhthe pai na (borong NY e eshe dekhthe hoi)
>

Bojha gyalo. Kintu ashol proshno-ta thhekei gyalo. Amra Bangali-ra
ki shopholbhabey kono dhoroner `entertainment'eri byabostha kortey
pari ? Korley to Bangla chhobi bhalo poishar mukh dekhto..agey
jyamon dekhto.

> > > > p.s: Thread-tar notun je naamta dilen tar maane ki ? Karontai ba ki ?
> > >
> > > Frivolity.
> > >
> >
> > jananor jonye dhonyobaad. Apnar hindi chapiye deoar obhijog-gulo-o
> > onekta tari jonye boley amar dharona.
>
> Na, ekta serious debate korthe chacchilam.
>
> Hothe-i pare, I am wrong. But how will I know without debating.
> Already Saptarshi, etc onnyo der post theke janchi, amar kichu idea
> thik, kichu 100% bhool. Kinthu thumi debate na kore personal attack
> korthe chaccho.
>

Eta gurutoro obhijog. `Personal attack' jodi korey thhaki taholey apni
nishchoi dyakhatey paarben sheta kothai. Jodi ta na paaren, taholey
amakeo bodhoi etakey `personal attack' boley nitey hobey.

BTW, Soumitrababu-r response'ta porechhen to Shaptarshibabur post-er
uttorey ?

> Your attitude seems to be: "How dare you even bring this topic up?"

I try to avoid debates on ambiguous terms like `seems'. Anyway, if
it `seemed' to you that way let me say that my intention was never
in those lines.

Thanks,
Arnab.

[Apratim Sarkar]

In article <3316F1...@homebox.com> naeem.m...@homebox.com writes:
>Apratim Sarkar wrote:
>>
>> Bengali culture niye alochona hochchhe dekhe khub bhalo laglo.
>

>> Arnab bade. O je e'i niye kichhu bojhe na sheta ekdom clear.
>

>Bolchen ki? Thahole amake je etho lomba lomba lecture dicche?

Ekdom patta deben na. Amra cholun anecdotal evidence'r jore
collective hahutash kori, o byata spoilsport, stats dekhay.
Amader puro moja mati.

>> Dhuti porte pari na.
>
>Dhuti keno? Lungi-o porthe paren. Ba, ubhoi i porthe paren :-)

Lungi'o pari na. Hapu pore ghumoi. Boleichhilum shakto case.

>Ahmod Sofa had a great line about this, unfortunately the book is at
>home:
>
>something like,
>"Bangla shonskrithi bolthe keu bojhen gamcha pore bokri nritttho kora,
>keu na bojhen Kolkatha'r bongo shonthan der onukoron e Robindro
>shongeeth gawa"
>
>[Note for the Sofa-ignorant, in spite of what you may perceive as
>anti-Calcutta bias in this quote, he is only anti-dhong, antiartifice;
>otherwise has himself done some work to create links btwn two Bengals]

E'i latest dhong'ta besh cholche abashyo ajkaal.

>--
>Naeem Mohaiemen

[Apratim Sarkar]

Ah, Sambit, iyarki mero na. Prospective tutor paliye jabe. Ebare ami
bengali culture'e cultured hoboi habo bole boshe achhi.

> Sambit

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

Apratim Sarkar wrote:
>
> Bengali culture niye alochona hochchhe dekhe khub bhalo laglo.

> Arnab bade. O je e'i niye kichhu bojhe na sheta ekdom clear.

Bolchen ki? Thahole amake je etho lomba lomba lecture dicche?

> Dhuti porte pari na.

Dhuti keno? Lungi-o porthe paren. Ba, ubhoi i porthe paren :-)

Ahmod Sofa had a great line about this, unfortunately the book is at
home:

something like,
"Bangla shonskrithi bolthe keu bojhen gamcha pore bokri nritttho kora,
keu na bojhen Kolkatha'r bongo shonthan der onukoron e Robindro
shongeeth gawa"

[Note for the Sofa-ignorant, in spite of what you may perceive as
anti-Calcutta bias in this quote, he is only anti-dhong, antiartifice;
otherwise has himself done some work to create links btwn two Bengals]

--

[Shoumyo Dasgupta]

Apratim Sarkar wrote:
>
> In article <3316F1...@homebox.com> naeem.m...@homebox.com writes:

> >Ahmod Sofa had a great line about this, unfortunately the book is at
> >home:
> >
> >something like,
> >"Bangla shonskrithi bolthe keu bojhen gamcha pore bokri nritttho kora,
> >keu na bojhen Kolkatha'r bongo shonthan der onukoron e Robindro
> >shongeeth gawa"
> >
> >[Note for the Sofa-ignorant, in spite of what you may perceive as
> >anti-Calcutta bias in this quote, he is only anti-dhong, antiartifice;
> >otherwise has himself done some work to create links btwn two Bengals]
>

> E'i latest dhong'ta besh cholche abashyo ajkaal.

Kontake latest dhong bolchcho Apra? Seriously, majaki na.

Shoumyo.

[Shoumyo Dasgupta]

Apratim Sarkar wrote:

> >
> >>Noile Ashok Mitra Academy pan!?
> >
> >
> >

Proshno:

1. Kon Ashok Mitra academy pelen ? Montri na IAS ? Kobita theke
michchile-r Ashok Mitra ? Na ki orthomontri ? Kobey ?

2. Jini-i hon, tnar pros and cons gulo shunte chai. Amio ektu cultured
hobo bashona hoyechche.

Shoumyo.

[Udayan Chattopadhyay]

In article <3314AE...@homebox.com>, naeem.m...@homebox.com says...
>
>

>"Good entertainment" ki? Karishma Kapoor (joghonnyo vile bosthu)
>er "Sexy, Sexy, mujhe.. etc" agdoom-bagdoom nithombo-prodorshoni?
>

>(..gawd, now I sound like an old fogey.. :-) )
>
>--
>Naeem Mohaiemen

Some amusing tracks I have heard (Hindi gaan-er bangla "bhabanubad")

"Sexy sexy sexy amaye lokey boley,
Hi sexy, hello sexy keno boley ..."

"Ancholer nichey ki re, ancholer nichey ..." (Choli ke pichey)
... ancholey achhe joubon,
ancholey achhe ei mon ..." (or something like that to pre-empt my mail-box
being flooded with the correct versions ...)

etc etc

What Bengal should have thought yesterday?

[Apratim Sarkar]

txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu writes:

>> E'i latest dhong'ta besh cholche abashyo ajkaal.
>
>Kontake latest dhong bolchcho Apra? Seriously, majaki na.

O'i dhak-dhol pitiye dui-Bangla'r link ityadi. Naeem aro bhalo
bojhate parbe. Are tumiyo e byapare onek jano to, amake ki jigesh
korchho?

>Shoumyo.

[Apratim Sarkar]

Montri. E bachhor. Tal-Betal boi'ti'r jonyo. "Cultured" hote gele
boi'ti poRai jathesto.

Pros, "cultured" hobar shohoj poth. Cons, well jehetu boi'ti kichhu
loghu feature'r collection matro (IMO) ...

[Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay]

Namoskar--

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Soumitra Bose wrote:

> E gulo kothai Hoi?? E ki fantasy land er khobor naki. Banglai keu Dhuti
> pore na ??? keu Bangla khobor shoneni ??? Banglai poster lekha hoi na
> ?????

I base this on what I saw in Calcutta when I visited from December 25,
1996 to January 21, 1997. This is not a "fantasy land".

Yes, there are people who wear dhuti. But I only saw ONE. (count them,
ONE) in the ENTIRE time I was in Calcutta. This, in a city of 8
million. Everyone prefers to wear jeans or suits/pants or (at the least)
panjabi and Nehru jackets. No one (practically) wears dhutis. I was not
consciously looking at what EVERY SINGLE person wore, but I something
like a dhuti did strike me in particular as I saw this man get off the bus.

There are advertisements in Bengali; I never said there was not. What is
now prevalent is GRAFFITI (of the political kind) in Hindi and (more and
more) advertisements in English. Advertisements I don't mind as much.
Mindless political graffiti, I do.

> AMi to jani e gulo eto beshi i hoi je ektu poriborton hole mondo hoto na
> , majhe majhe bangla r mshurjo bojha jeto jodi onno kichur sathe tulona
> korar sujog thakto . Kolkata r nijoshoy channele ami ki konodin hindi
> khobor shunechhi ???? Ki re baba , eshob ki slesh na nichok GAndumi
> ......

Soumitra-babu... poriborton hole amar kichu apathi ne| Kintu e
poriborton-ta amader AaSha, amader icchabunti niye niche| Ar Kolkata-r
nijey channel onak-ra paina| Kintu gornment-er channel amar mama-r
bari-te khub-i bhalo ashe|

What I have said is accurate for the most part. I can only recount my
experiences; your mileage with them may vary. Perhaps this is a "fantasy
land" as far as others' experience. Are they deluding themselvers, or am
I the only one to see these things?
__________________________________________________________________________
Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay
sapt...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu

Please forgive any spelling errors in Bengali or English.

If no one answers to your call, walk alone, walk alone
(Judhi thor dhak sunay kao na ashay, thaubay akla cholo ray)

-- Rabi Thakur (1st line of a poem)

[Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay]

Namoskar--

On 27 Feb 1997, Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:

> Hindi imposition is done in a very subtle way. I have been told that it
> is our patriotic duty to learn Hindi. I have seen offensive slogans in
> Railway Offices which said "Sachhe Bhartiya Baniye, Hindi Sikhiye" (Be a
> true Indian, learn Hindi).

When I was in Calcutta not 2 months ago, I remembered seeing buses with
their destinations written in Bengali on the side, but with the words
"Mare Bharat Mohan He" (my Bharat is great) on the back of practically
EVERY SINGLE one. Looking at the dilapidated state of the buses in
Calcutta (compared to those in Delhi), and the even worse conditions of
the road, I kept thinking of the irony... my Bharat may be great, but my
Bengal isn't doing so well. Regardless of the background, the mere fact
that the words "Mare Bharat Mohan He" was written in Hindi is a
subliminal reinforcement of the "Hindi=Bharat" message.

> Some of my experiences of insidious creeping of Hindi (and neglect of
> Bengali) in Calcutta

[experiences deleted]

> 5.In Taj Bengal, once I had to go and meet somebody. I approached the
> reception and asked for the persons room number and the permission to use
> the house phone. The women in the counter was Bengali (the name tag
> showed a Bengali surname). All my questions were in Bengali and all her
> replies were in English.

This happened to us at the Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose airport (formerly
known as Dum-Dum). Upon leaving, airport manager took exception to our
baggage, and argued with us in English, as we argued with him in
Bengali. I suppose that because it's an international airport, however,
that this was excusable.

> Note: The above instances are about 2.5 years old.

My experiences are only 2 months old.

> speaking friends in Hindi. What gets my goat are the following

And mine too

>
> a)An assertion that learning Hindi is my patriotic duty.
> b)An assertion that we all must learn Hindi to foster unity.
> c)An exclamation of surprise on learning that I speak Bengali at home and
> a query after that asking me why should not I attempt to use the
> "National Language" in my home.
>
> I have personally faced all the situation outlined above. It was not funny.

It's more than "not funny". It's sad. Let there be no mistake, there is
a _systematic_, _organized_ plot in India to wipe out all regional
languages in favor of the "national" language, Hindi. Unfortunately, one
of the sweetest and sonorous languages in the world, Bengali, has been
a victim of it. The fact that great poets and great writers used this
language means nothing, apparently, to this onslought.

> _______
> Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya

__________________________________________________________________________
Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay
sapt...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu

Modar Gorob | Modar Aasha | Amari Bangla BhaSha
(Our hope. Our pride. Our Bengali language.)

-- Atulprasad Sen

Let the soil and the waters and the dirt and the fruits of Bengal be holy,
my Lord!
Let the minds and the hearts of all my brothers and sisters of Bengal be one,
my Lord!

-- Rabindranath Thakur

[Shoumyo Dasgupta]

Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay quoted:

> Modar Gorob | Modar Aasha | Amari Bangla BhaSha
> (Our hope. Our pride. Our Bengali language.)
>
> -- Atulprasad Sen

I am just making sure you don't have a typo here:

Aa Mori Bangla BhaSha

BTW, anyone with any suggestion on how to translate "Aa Mori?"

Obviously, Saptarshi's translation of that phrase is probably under the
assumption that the word is actually spelt the way it is quoted.

Shoumyo.

[Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay]

On 27 Feb 1997, Arnab Gupta wrote:

> Sayan Bhattacharya wrote:
>
> >Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> >>sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think there is a simple explanation for that. Up until the 60s,
> >>> films weren't as expensive to make as they became later. So the
> >>> industry wasn't as capital-intensive as it was to become later,
> >>> and consequently, players with lesser capital at their disposal
> >>> could still be effective players in the market.

For good films, I think the real issue here isn't capital. After all, if
a film is good, then it WILL get shown somewhere. However, if a film is
bad, then it can always be supported by advertising, marketing, and other
crap like that. Movies are, indeed, a supply-driven market. If there is
a movie to be seen, somebody will see it. The question is what _kind_ of
bad films get supported? Whose _bad_ films get shown (which director)?
And for these films that ARE bad and DO get shown-- in what language are
these films shot?

> >For reasons of linguistic cognate-ness, Hindi is much more
> >comprehensible to a native speaker of Bengali than it is to
> >a native speaker of the Dravidian languages you mention. Thus,
> >Hindi film wasn't able to make as much headway into the
> >Dravidian market as it could into the Bengali market.

Didn't places in the south (like Madras and Kerala) BAN all movies that
weren't in Tamil or other regional languages? This may seem harsh, but
it DID force all Bollywood films to re-dub their films in Tamil, Telegu,
etc. As a result, their culture may have become homogenized, but at
least the language has remained strong. This may explain why Hindi
couldn't make headway into the Dravidian market.

The fact of the matter is humans are visual creatures. Visual media is
the quickest way to communicate. And as long as other languages are used
in conjunction with visual media, that language will be assimilated
faster. (I speak from experience, having used French films to learn French).

> This does not address the `capital' issue. Also, hindi films have
> got quite a good market down south. In any case, the truth is if
> there is a demand for regional language films, funds are not a
> problem. Bengali films produced after the seventies are just
> too weak to attract audiences. Quality of films did play a major
> role here.

Compare this to the Hindi films produced since... well, whenever. They
have nothing more than rehashes of the same plot since 1888. Hindi films
have NOT improved in quality in over 3 decades, yet they get wide
audiences and a lot of money. Bengali films (assuming, for now, that it's
fact) have not improved in quality, and consequently they aren't even
released.

By the way, if you look closely, even Bengali films in mid 80's show a
lot of diversity in plot, character, and filmography. I think Bengali
film-makers have probably shown more diversity than other film-makers from
other parts of India, and Bollywood for certain.

> In support
> >of this claim, I would like to submit that none of the strong
> >regional-language film industries in India are in the North,
> >where Hindi is fairly comprehensible.

There was a strong Marathi film industry before. The rest of the "North"
Indian film tradition has been sucked into Bollywood-- Bollywood IS the
rest of the N. Indian tradition.

> There was *never* any strong regional-language film industry in the
> North apart from Bengali (though Marathi film industry deserves a
> mention).

Oh, but what a strong film industry it was in Bengal! The names of
Satyajit Ray, Ritwik Ghatak, and Mrinal Sen are not only symbolic with
Indian film, but with THE ART OF FILM-MAKING over the entire world. Can
you honestly say that there are no worthy successors to this legacy? Or
(as seems more likely the case) have the students who learned under these
masters not yet been "discovered"?

By the way, I would deem these films characteristic of the "Eastern"
Indian tradition, as opposed to the Northern one.

> Thanks,
> Arnab.

__________________________________________________________________________
Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay
sapt...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu

[K.M. Maniruzzaman]

In article <5f2c4a$6v4$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N.
Tiwari) wrote:

>The employemnt of Urdu in E. Bengali affairs
>precedes the creation of Pakistani state. In early 20th century
>and late 19th century, there were powerful movements, brought in
>from varrious place (UP, Bihar, Persia, S. Arabia) to inculcate
>true Islamic mores amongst the Muslims of E. Bengal. For whatever
>reasons, these movements, which are viewed as "reform" by a lot of
>Bangladeshi nationalists of current times, did help the generation
>of a distinct Bangladeshi identity. The strenght of these movements
>can be realized by things like:

You sound like a Bangladeshi nationalist, though that doesn't
come as a surprise given your support for BJP ideology. What is
"a distinct Bangladeshi identity?" What is this distinction that
makes me so different from my relatives in W. Bengal, and puts me
into the same 'identity group' as my friend R. Chakma? Apart from
citizenship, that is.

>
>a) In almost no time, a lot of E Bengali Muslims started demanding
> that Urdu be used in their schools, instead of Bangla. The reason
> advanced for that was the Bangla is a Hindu language.

How many were "a lot"? Who were they? Urdu-speaking 'Bengalis'
(a la Suhrawardi) perhaps?

>b) In almost no time, a lot of Bengali Muslims assumed Persian and
> midEastern names. Prior to these reform movements, the rural Bangali
> Muslim had similar names to his Hindu counterparts.

Wrong. The tradition of adopting an arabic name as a person
converts to Islam is quite old and is not a result of those
alleged late 19th and early 20th century reformers.
Do you think those 'reformers' were responsible for, say,
Cassius Clay changing his name to Muhammad Ali?

Many urban, or upper class, Muslims have names or 'padabis'
similar to their Hindu counterparts, like Chowdhury, Biswas, Haldar,
Thakur etc. Many rural Bangladeshis still have Bengali names,
usually attached to some other name that identifies their faith,
like Budhu Miah, Tunu Sheikh etc.

>c) In almost no time, Bengali Muslims tried to prove, despite all the
> opposing evidence, that their genetic roots lay in midEast.

Some upper class Bengalis did. The fact is, many upper class
Bengali Muslims indeed have such lineage, as their ancestors came to Bengal
and settled here in the Sultanate/Mughal periods. But it becomes
ridiculous/sad when people try to flaunt it as something to be
proud of. It becomes stupid when someone claims that Bengali Muslims,
in general, are descendants of Middle Easterners.

>If you are looking at the roots of the schism between the Bdeshi
>and Bengali identities, you have to go back to pre-independence
>era. The process of separation started with large scale conversion
>to Islam, followed by rejection of Indian identity and adoption of
>Islamic (or midEastern) identity. It would be silly to argue that the
>Bdeshi Muslim is 100% midEastern as of today. We still see very strong
>remnants of Bengaliness in his cultural mores. But, as elsewhere,
>this nativeness has always been under constant attack, and is being
>constantly being purged by all sorts of forces.
>

There you are again, sounding like a Bangladeshi nationalist. Only
the BN would tell you that his "Islamic identity" is "under constant
attack" and "being purged by all sorts of forces."

--
Manir

ma...@okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
ma...@asami.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
URL: http://okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/okabelab/manir/manir.html
=====================================================================
"The rich get richer, the poor get children" -- G.B. Shaw

[Udayan Chattopadhyay]

In article <3316F1...@homebox.com>, naeem.m...@homebox.com says...

>
>Dhuti keno? Lungi-o porthe paren. Ba, ubhoi i porthe paren :-)
>

>Ahmod Sofa had a great line about this, unfortunately the book is at
>home:
>
>something like,
>"Bangla shonskrithi bolthe keu bojhen gamcha pore bokri nritttho kora,
>keu na bojhen Kolkatha'r bongo shonthan der onukoron e Robindro
>shongeeth gawa"
>

>--
>Naeem Mohaiemen

Besh moja laagey ...

Ershad / Zia / Habibur Rehman / Shahbuddin etc - emnitey suit, tie
poren/porten. Oi Robindro-Nazrul joyonti, noboborsho-te sref pajama-panjabi,
shal, ityadi. Cambridge-ey ami-o jeans, shirt, ityadi (President holey
nishchoi suit-tie); ekbar paglami korey abritti korte gelam
robindro-joyonti-te, koto khonjh khobor korey pajama suit, shal, etc baar
korlam.

Suman-er ekta gaan nei - with some reference to jeans (male) salwar kamiz
(female) dress being typical of Calcutta middle class?

Jyoti Basu, Dilli (orthat, WB'r bairey) gelei Nehru jacket. Ajkal besh
robindronjoyonti ityadi palon korte shikhechen. tokhon to dhuti-shal bola
bahullo.

Slightly tangential - Lalloo Prasad Yadav, jokhon Thailand, Singapore etc
gelen for "Invest in Bihar" holiday, 3-piece-suit order koralen. London
eshey speech dilen oi suit porey. "Dekhiye aplogon ... Lalloo ban gaya
Zentleman!"

[Arnab Gupta]

Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay wrote:

>> >Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>> >>sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I think there is a simple explanation for that. Up until the 60s,
>> >>> films weren't as expensive to make as they became later. So the
>> >>> industry wasn't as capital-intensive as it was to become later,
>> >>> and consequently, players with lesser capital at their disposal
>> >>> could still be effective players in the market.
>
>For good films, I think the real issue here isn't capital. After all, if
>a film is good, then it WILL get shown somewhere. However, if a film is
>bad, then it can always be supported by advertising, marketing, and other
>crap like that. Movies are, indeed, a supply-driven market. If there is
>a movie to be seen, somebody will see it. The question is what _kind_ of
>bad films get supported? Whose _bad_ films get shown (which director)?
>And for these films that ARE bad and DO get shown-- in what language are
>these films shot?
>

Irrelevant, as far as the topic of discussion is concerned. The question
is: Is Hindi films being *imposed* on the Bengalis ? (the exact term
used was `Hegemony of hindi..' and it was used wrt the loss of Bengali
identity). The simple answer, IMO, is: no. I will be happy if you address
this point.

Pesonally, I would also like to see a thriving Bengali film industry.
But if the majority of Bengalis do not care for that, then I don't
see anybody else's fault there apart from Bengalis'.

>> >For reasons of linguistic cognate-ness, Hindi is much more
>> >comprehensible to a native speaker of Bengali than it is to
>> >a native speaker of the Dravidian languages you mention. Thus,
>> >Hindi film wasn't able to make as much headway into the
>> >Dravidian market as it could into the Bengali market.
>
>Didn't places in the south (like Madras and Kerala) BAN all movies that
>weren't in Tamil or other regional languages? This may seem harsh, but
>it DID force all Bollywood films to re-dub their films in Tamil, Telegu,
>etc. As a result, their culture may have become homogenized, but at
>least the language has remained strong. This may explain why Hindi
>couldn't make headway into the Dravidian market.
>

Pretty `hegemonic' way, I must say, in a democracy.

>The fact of the matter is humans are visual creatures. Visual media is
>the quickest way to communicate. And as long as other languages are used
>in conjunction with visual media, that language will be assimilated
>faster. (I speak from experience, having used French films to learn French).
>
>> This does not address the `capital' issue. Also, hindi films have
>> got quite a good market down south. In any case, the truth is if
>> there is a demand for regional language films, funds are not a
>> problem. Bengali films produced after the seventies are just
>> too weak to attract audiences. Quality of films did play a major
>> role here.
>
>Compare this to the Hindi films produced since... well, whenever. They
>have nothing more than rehashes of the same plot since 1888. Hindi films
>have NOT improved in quality in over 3 decades, yet they get wide
>audiences and a lot of money. Bengali films (assuming, for now, that it's
>fact) have not improved in quality, and consequently they aren't even
>released.
>

The point is if audience is a factor then Bengali was *always* lagging
behind hindi, by a wide margin. Still then, Bengalis managed to maintain
a decent film industry. The sole reason being *Bengalis* patronized such
an industry. If they don't do it now, it's *their* fault.

>By the way, if you look closely, even Bengali films in mid 80's show a
>lot of diversity in plot, character, and filmography. I think Bengali
>film-makers have probably shown more diversity than other film-makers from
>other parts of India, and Bollywood for certain.
>

Peronally, I would agree to what you are saying. But Bengali films
of the 80's that you are referring to, were a part of the so-called
`Indian new wave'. It was never commercially successful. Most of them
did not even bring back the money that was spent to produce them, leave
alone maintaining a decent film industry. The `quality' I was referring
to, is wrt the so-called `commercial films'.

>> In support
>> >of this claim, I would like to submit that none of the strong
>> >regional-language film industries in India are in the North,
>> >where Hindi is fairly comprehensible.
>
>There was a strong Marathi film industry before. The rest of the "North"
>Indian film tradition has been sucked into Bollywood-- Bollywood IS the
>rest of the N. Indian tradition.
>>
>> There was *never* any strong regional-language film industry in the
>> North apart from Bengali (though Marathi film industry deserves a
>> mention).
>
>Oh, but what a strong film industry it was in Bengal!

Are you being sarcastic here ?

The names of
>Satyajit Ray, Ritwik Ghatak, and Mrinal Sen are not only symbolic with
>Indian film, but with THE ART OF FILM-MAKING over the entire world.

So ? Mrinal and Ritwik are definitely bad choices as far as maintaining
a `film industry' is concerned. (Note, this in no way questions their
artistic abilities)

Can
>you honestly say that there are no worthy successors to this legacy? Or
>(as seems more likely the case) have the students who learned under these
>masters not yet been "discovered"?
>

So whose fault is it ? Do you think someone conspired to keep them
un"discovered" ?

Thanks,
Arnab.

[Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya]

Here's a news from Calcutta Online of March 2

PM's stress on Hindi
Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda emphasised the need for promotion of
Hindi throughout the country alongwith the development of regional
languages. Deve Gowda was inaugurating the diamond jubilee celebration
of Rashtriya Bhasa Prasar Samity at Yubabharati Krirangan in Calcutta
on March 1. In his speech he recalled the great role of Mahatma in
propagating Hindi as a National Language. Speaking on the occasion
Sharad Pawar of Congress said that the use of Hindi is essential for
national integration. The governors of West Bengal, Tripura, Arunachal
Pradesh were also present. West Bengal Transport Minister Subhash
Chakraborty stressed the need for learning Hindi. The celebration will
continue for the next two days.

--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya

[Y. Malaiya]

Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay wrote;

>* Have you seen ANYONE wearing a dhuti in WB? No one does... Western
>suits and clothing have become "fashionable", even when they are the most
>uncomfortable things (especially in summer). The preference for clothing
>has shifted. It is definitely, now, Western. Pants > panjama > dhuti

I see a lot of Hindi speakers in India who wear dhuti, although their
number is fast declining.

Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay wrote:
>
> Yes, there are people who wear dhuti. But I only saw ONE. (count them,
> ONE) in the ENTIRE time I was in Calcutta. This, in a city of 8
> million. Everyone prefers to wear jeans or suits/pants or (at the least)
> panjabi and Nehru jackets. No one (practically) wears dhutis. I was not
> consciously looking at what EVERY SINGLE person wore, but I something
> like a dhuti did strike me in particular as I saw this man get off the bus.
>

I always thought the Bengalis have preserved the art of wearing
a dhuti better than others.

Yashwant

[Soumitra Bose]

Apratim Sarkar wrote:
>
> In article <3316F1...@homebox.com> naeem.m...@homebox.com writes:

> >Apratim Sarkar wrote:
> >>
> >> Bengali culture niye alochona hochchhe dekhe khub bhalo laglo.
> >
> >> Arnab bade. O je e'i niye kichhu bojhe na sheta ekdom clear.
> >
> >Bolchen ki? Thahole amake je etho lomba lomba lecture dicche?
>

> Ekdom patta deben na. Amra cholun anecdotal evidence'r jore
> collective hahutash kori, o byata spoilsport, stats dekhay.
> Amader puro moja mati.
>
> >> Dhuti porte pari na.
> >

> >Dhuti keno? Lungi-o porthe paren. Ba, ubhoi i porthe paren :-)
>

> Lungi'o pari na. Hapu pore ghumoi. Boleichhilum shakto case.
>

> >Ahmod Sofa had a great line about this, unfortunately the book is at
> >home:
> >
> >something like,
> >"Bangla shonskrithi bolthe keu bojhen gamcha pore bokri nritttho kora,
> >keu na bojhen Kolkatha'r bongo shonthan der onukoron e Robindro
> >shongeeth gawa"
> >

> >[Note for the Sofa-ignorant, in spite of what you may perceive as
> >anti-Calcutta bias in this quote, he is only anti-dhong, antiartifice;
> >otherwise has himself done some work to create links btwn two Bengals]
>

> E'i latest dhong'ta besh cholche abashyo ajkaal.
>

> >--
> >Naeem Mohaiemen

>
> Apratim.
>
> --
> Amai jodi dei tara noukati Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are
> Ami tabe shatshota dNaR aNati are my own and shouldn't be construed in
> Pal tule di charte pNachta chhata any way to represent that of my employer.
> Mithye ghure beRai na ko hate|

Oho Apra , Lungi pore ghumonor se je ki onabil anondo !!! , Prokriti r
sathe sei primordial jogoshutro !!!! Majhe majhe chesta kore dekhoi na ,
e ekebare moksholabh . Bojho na Toari shorirer dui ongsher modhye tumi
ar tomar ekanto nijoshota chara keu nei , aha ha ha ! ke je abishkar
korechilo ei lungyi .Naturalistic Aesthetics er opore Nobel prize thakle
sei MAnushtir oboshoi seta prapyo.

[Udayan Chattopadhyay]

In article <3317D1...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>,
txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu says...
>
>Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay quoted:

>
>> Modar Gorob | Modar Aasha | Amari Bangla BhaSha
>> (Our hope. Our pride. Our Bengali language.)
>>
>> -- Atulprasad Sen
>

>BTW, anyone with any suggestion on how to translate "Aa Mori?"
>
>

>Shoumyo.

I did one for a Cambridge college magazine ages ago (just on THAT koli,
can't manage more than that!):

"Our pride, our inspiration, our beloved Bengali language"

[Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay]

On 1 Mar 1997, Arnab Gupta wrote:

> Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay wrote:
>
> >For good films, I think the real issue here isn't capital. After all, if
> >a film is good, then it WILL get shown somewhere. However, if a film is
> >bad, then it can always be supported by advertising, marketing, and other
> >crap like that. Movies are, indeed, a supply-driven market. If there is
> >a movie to be seen, somebody will see it. The question is what _kind_ of
> >bad films get supported? Whose _bad_ films get shown (which director)?
> >And for these films that ARE bad and DO get shown-- in what language are
> >these films shot?
> >
>
> Irrelevant, as far as the topic of discussion is concerned. The question
> is: Is Hindi films being *imposed* on the Bengalis ? (the exact term
> used was `Hegemony of hindi..' and it was used wrt the loss of Bengali
> identity). The simple answer, IMO, is: no. I will be happy if you address
> this point.

I DID try to address this point. In India, bad Hindi films are being
shown preference over bad (and even reasonably good) regional films. All
films, in order to be shown, must have a "market" (whatever that means).
And to reach the biggest market, the film HAS to be in Hindi. And so
what is a poor Bengali (or Orissi or Bihari) to do? Without any films
being shown in Bengali, one must see a film in Hindi.

The point is the _supply_ of Bengali films is not there (there were only
2 [!] Bengali films showing in Calcutta when I was there, compared to
over 7 in Hindi), and the reason why is that film distributors will not
distribute them because of the small size of the "market".

>
> Pesonally, I would also like to see a thriving Bengali film industry.
> But if the majority of Bengalis do not care for that, then I don't
> see anybody else's fault there apart from Bengalis'.

The same could be said of the Tamil film industry. However, they have
forced Bollywood to overdub their films in Tamil in order to get them to
sell. I'm not advocating that all films be MADE and SHOT in Bengali.
I'm simply pointing out that there are other options available.
Bengalis, even if they DON'T care for Bengali-made films (a supposition
that I doubt), should have the option of seeing Hindi films dubbed in
Bengali.

> Pretty `hegemonic' way, I must say, in a democracy.

First, India is a republic, not a democracy. Second, in ANY such
political system, there is the possibility of the "tyranny of the
majority". I have long held the view that rule of the majority does not
justify suppression of the minority. Apparently native Hindi-speakers
disagree.

> The point is if audience is a factor then Bengali was *always* lagging
> behind hindi, by a wide margin. Still then, Bengalis managed to maintain
> a decent film industry. The sole reason being *Bengalis* patronized such
> an industry. If they don't do it now, it's *their* fault.

I disagree. Ray had many of his films translated into other languages
(Hindi among them). They had *foreign* patrons (with respect to
Bengal). This previous paragraph is just ludicrous! I have seen Hindi
films dubbed in Arabic for a small market in N. Africa, and yet none in
Bengali! You tell me how to interpret this!

I also believe that one reason why the "market" for Bengali films is so
small is that Bangladesh, for the longest time, wasn's considered a part
of it. Consider that according to the Britannica Junior Encyclopedia,
1985, Bengali was the 5th most spoken language in the world (Hindi was
4th). The issue of *patronization* shouldn't come up for one versus the
other, if you consider this statistic.

> >By the way, if you look closely, even Bengali films in mid 80's show a
> >lot of diversity in plot, character, and filmography. I think Bengali
> >film-makers have probably shown more diversity than other film-makers from
> >other parts of India, and Bollywood for certain.
>
> Peronally, I would agree to what you are saying. But Bengali films
> of the 80's that you are referring to, were a part of the so-called
> `Indian new wave'. It was never commercially successful. Most of them
> did not even bring back the money that was spent to produce them, leave
> alone maintaining a decent film industry. The `quality' I was referring
> to, is wrt the so-called `commercial films'.

Well, I think we agree on one other thing, then: commercial = crap, for
the most part.

>> But, oh what a film industry it was!

> Are you being sarcastic here ?

No. I genuinely admire the Bengali film industry. I think the fact that
it can keep producing such high-quality (wrt cinema as an art form,
rather than a money-making, wage-cheating, mind-numbing enterprise) with
such little money is truly remarkable.

> So ? Mrinal and Ritwik are definitely bad choices as far as maintaining
> a `film industry' is concerned. (Note, this in no way questions their
> artistic abilities)

I didn't mean to imply otherwise. In fact, some say Ghatak was better
than Ray himself, only he didn't get as much publicity. Whatever. As an
amateur film buff, I cannot enter such arguments. I can only gaze and
see, in the sky, the spreading layers of a vast, radiant, petalled rose.
(Quote from RT).

Please... I think you intepreted my statement as sarcasm, when I meant it
in earnest.

> >you honestly say that there are no worthy successors to this legacy? Or
> >(as seems more likely the case) have the students who learned under these
> >masters not yet been "discovered"?
>
> So whose fault is it ? Do you think someone conspired to keep them
> un"discovered" ?

I suppose that is one possibility (re my other posts). On the other hand
I guess (since no one suggested otherwise) that _perhaps_ there are
no worthy successors. I will have to ask with my friends and relatives in
Calcutta to see what they think. I only know that in America, one can't
FIND new films by young Bengali directors. In the mean time, if anyone
on this ng knows of good, "young" Bengali directors, could you please
forward a list to my email address below?

> Thanks,
> Arnab.

Dhonnobad-er jonyo kono karon ne| E topcs-er opore aro jodi alo-chona
hoi, thale ami Dhonnobad-ta nibo ebong farot dibo|
__________________________________________________________________________
Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay
sapt...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu

[Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay]

On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, Y. Malaiya wrote:

> Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay wrote;
>
> > Yes, there are people who wear dhuti. But I only saw ONE. (count them,
> > ONE) in the ENTIRE time I was in Calcutta. This, in a city of 8
> > million. Everyone prefers to wear jeans or suits/pants or (at the least)
> > panjabi and Nehru jackets. No one (practically) wears dhutis. I was not

> > consciously looking at what EVERY SINGLE person wore, but something

> > like a dhuti did strike me in particular as I saw this man get off the bus.
> >
>
> I always thought the Bengalis have preserved the art of wearing
> a dhuti better than others.
>
> Yashwant

I don't know about that. I thought perhaps in the south, they would
preserve their dress a little more. But if so, then you can see how far
things have come (or rather, fallen).

__________________________________________________________________________
Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay
sapt...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu

[Kousik Chakrabarti]

Sambit Basu wrote:

>
> Apratim Sarkar writes:
>
> Bangla culture nijei nijer paye kuRul marchhe, external influence nei > ta na, kintu negligible.
>

> Noile Ashok Mitra Academy pan!?
>

> Tobe je bolle bangla culture bojho na?
>

> Sambit

Onekdin por SCB khule lekhar aei ektimatro soresh bishoi
jutlo|"Bangla Culture" byaparta ki thik jana ney|Keu jodi bisodhbhabe
bujiye den anondito hobo|Tobe erokom ekta lekha poDechilaam:

" Oneke bilaap koriteche 'Somosto ekakar hoyiya gelo', kintu amar mone
aj aei boliye anodyo hoyteche je, aj somosto 'Ekakkar' hoybari upokrom
hoyache bote| Amra jokhon bangali hoybo, tokhon ekbar 'Ekakkar' hoybe,
ar bangali jokhon manush hoybe tokhon ar ekbar ekakkar hoybe|"

Onusondhan kore jenechilaam lekhoker naam Sri NobinKishor Shormono:|

Ke jane kon ochena lekhok emon dristota dekhiyechen|Keu chenen naki aei
namer kono lekhok-ke?

~Kaushik.

[Udayan Chattopadhyay]

In article <Pine.HPP.3.91.97030...@cehpx34.cen.uiuc.edu>,
sapt...@cehpx34.cen.uiuc.edu says...

>
>
>I don't know about that. I thought perhaps in the south, they would
>preserve their dress a little more. But if so, then you can see how far
>things have come (or rather, fallen).
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
> Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay
> sapt...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu

... or simply changed with time ...?! How many Englishmen still raise their
bowler hats when they see a lady walk by ...

[Srabani Banerjee]

Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay wrote:

[...]

> > Pretty `hegemonic' way, I must say, in a democracy.
>
> First, India is a republic, not a democracy. Second, in ANY such

aNya! `republic' hole `democracy' howa jay na? preamble-e je lekha
chhilo `We, the people of India,....democratic republic...'!

Srabani

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:

> Some amusing tracks I have heard (Hindi gaan-er bangla "bhabanubad")
>
> "Sexy sexy sexy amaye lokey boley,
> Hi sexy, hello sexy keno boley ..."
>
> "Ancholer nichey ki re, ancholer nichey ..." (Choli ke pichey)
> ... ancholey achhe joubon,
> ancholey achhe ei mon ..." (or something like that to pre-empt my mail-box
> being flooded with the correct versions ...)
>
> etc etc
>
> What Bengal should have thought yesterday?

But Bengal did think of it yesterday. Have you never heard the Bangla
classic:

"Ki je koro!
Charo a(n)chol
Lok e bolbe ki??

Na na!
SHore thako!"

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

Apratim Sarkar wrote:
>
> txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu writes:

> >Kontake latest dhong bolchcho Apra? Seriously, majaki na.
>
> O'i dhak-dhol pitiye dui-Bangla'r link ityadi. Naeem aro bhalo
> bojhate parbe.

Bhalo lage na, poro na. KILL FILE e dhukie dao.

[Arnab Gupta]

Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay wrote:

..[deleted]..

>> >For good films, I think the real issue here isn't capital. After all, if
>> >a film is good, then it WILL get shown somewhere. However, if a film is
>> >bad, then it can always be supported by advertising, marketing, and other
>> >crap like that. Movies are, indeed, a supply-driven market. If there is
>> >a movie to be seen, somebody will see it. The question is what _kind_ of
>> >bad films get supported? Whose _bad_ films get shown (which director)?
>> >And for these films that ARE bad and DO get shown-- in what language are
>> >these films shot?
>> >
>>
>> Irrelevant, as far as the topic of discussion is concerned. The question
>> is: Is Hindi films being *imposed* on the Bengalis ? (the exact term
>> used was `Hegemony of hindi..' and it was used wrt the loss of Bengali
>> identity). The simple answer, IMO, is: no. I will be happy if you address
>> this point.
>
>I DID try to address this point. In India, bad Hindi films are being
>shown preference over bad (and even reasonably good) regional films.

If showing preference is not a crime I don't see anyone's fault here.

All
>films, in order to be shown, must have a "market" (whatever that means).
>And to reach the biggest market, the film HAS to be in Hindi. And so
>what is a poor Bengali (or Orissi or Bihari) to do? Without any films
>being shown in Bengali, one must see a film in Hindi.
>
>The point is the _supply_ of Bengali films is not there (there were only
>2 [!] Bengali films showing in Calcutta when I was there, compared to
>over 7 in Hindi), and the reason why is that film distributors will not
>distribute them because of the small size of the "market".

Saptarshibabu proshno-ta dim agey na murgi agey - tar na. *Bangla chhobi-r
aykta bhalo `market' chhilo, jeta choley gyachhe*. Keu jor korey taake taDai
ni. Bangalira nijerai er jonye dayi. Apni borong amader janan je ki korey
aykta `established' market choley gyalo.

>>
>> Pesonally, I would also like to see a thriving Bengali film industry.
>> But if the majority of Bengalis do not care for that, then I don't
>> see anybody else's fault there apart from Bengalis'.
>
>The same could be said of the Tamil film industry. However, they have
>forced Bollywood to overdub their films in Tamil in order to get them to
>sell. I'm not advocating that all films be MADE and SHOT in Bengali.
>I'm simply pointing out that there are other options available.
>Bengalis, even if they DON'T care for Bengali-made films (a supposition
>that I doubt), should have the option of seeing Hindi films dubbed in
>Bengali.
>

It's an option that *you* are suggesting. Majority Bengalis are pretty
much happy with Hindi films as they are - without dubbing.

>> Pretty `hegemonic' way, I must say, in a democracy.
>
>First, India is a republic, not a democracy. Second, in ANY such
>political system, there is the possibility of the "tyranny of the
>majority". I have long held the view that rule of the majority does not
>justify suppression of the minority. Apparently native Hindi-speakers
>disagree.
>

`Tyranny' is out of question here. People have accepted this situation
voluntarily.

>> The point is if audience is a factor then Bengali was *always* lagging
>> behind hindi, by a wide margin. Still then, Bengalis managed to maintain
>> a decent film industry. The sole reason being *Bengalis* patronized such
>> an industry. If they don't do it now, it's *their* fault.
>
>I disagree. Ray had many of his films translated into other languages
>(Hindi among them). They had *foreign* patrons (with respect to
>Bengal). This previous paragraph is just ludicrous! I have seen Hindi
>films dubbed in Arabic for a small market in N. Africa, and yet none in
>Bengali! You tell me how to interpret this!
>

Precisely because there is a demand for `dubbing' and people are ready
to pay for it. Bengalis are happy with `hindi' films in `hindi'. Happy ?

Ray films were mostly `subtitled' in other laguages and shown in a
few cities only, that too mainly among the film club audiences.
The only Bengali film by Ray that was dubbed in Hindi was `Kapurush'.
Failed badly, as far as the response in concerned.

>I also believe that one reason why the "market" for Bengali films is so
>small is that Bangladesh, for the longest time, wasn's considered a part
>of it. Consider that according to the Britannica Junior Encyclopedia,
>1985, Bengali was the 5th most spoken language in the world (Hindi was
>4th). The issue of *patronization* shouldn't come up for one versus the
>other, if you consider this statistic.
>

So ? Bangladesh can only create an additional market. But export of films to
East Pakistan was stopped by the Pakistan government in the fifties itself
(can someone verify with exact year ?). Bengali films had a major market
in West Bengal even after that.

>> >By the way, if you look closely, even Bengali films in mid 80's show a
>> >lot of diversity in plot, character, and filmography. I think Bengali
>> >film-makers have probably shown more diversity than other film-makers from
>> >other parts of India, and Bollywood for certain.
>>
>> Peronally, I would agree to what you are saying. But Bengali films
>> of the 80's that you are referring to, were a part of the so-called
>> `Indian new wave'. It was never commercially successful. Most of them
>> did not even bring back the money that was spent to produce them, leave
>> alone maintaining a decent film industry. The `quality' I was referring
>> to, is wrt the so-called `commercial films'.
>
>Well, I think we agree on one other thing, then: commercial = crap, for
>the most part.
>

No, I don't agree with you here. It's the commercial films that help
maintaining a film industry. Government patronized `art' film makers may
disagree on this, but it is a fact. You need a strong film industry to
help produce films - good or bad.

Personally, I think Bengal has a very rich heritage of so called `commercial'
film making.

>>> But, oh what a film industry it was!
>
>> Are you being sarcastic here ?
>
>No. I genuinely admire the Bengali film industry. I think the fact that
>it can keep producing such high-quality (wrt cinema as an art form,
>rather than a money-making, wage-cheating, mind-numbing enterprise) with
>such little money is truly remarkable.
>

Eta bhalo bollen. Apnar akhhep kyano Bangla chhobir market nei. Koyekjon
art chhobir porichalok-er naam janaben - jNara `film industry'ke orthokori
bhabe shahajyo korechhen ? Aar apni je `cinema as an art form' srenir
chhobir kotha bolchhen, kojon Bangali ta dekhtey chai khoj niye dekhechhen
ki ? Shorkari bhortuki diye chalatey hoy kyano, shetao ki bhebe dekhechhen ?

>> So ? Mrinal and Ritwik are definitely bad choices as far as maintaining
>> a `film industry' is concerned. (Note, this in no way questions their
>> artistic abilities)
>
>I didn't mean to imply otherwise. In fact, some say Ghatak was better
>than Ray himself, only he didn't get as much publicity. Whatever. As an
>amateur film buff, I cannot enter such arguments. I can only gaze and
>see, in the sky, the spreading layers of a vast, radiant, petalled rose.
>(Quote from RT).
>
>Please... I think you intepreted my statement as sarcasm, when I meant it
>in earnest.
>

So why did you bring up Mrinal and Ritwik to show `oh what a film industry it
was!' They are pretty much `failures' as far as maintaining a `film industry'
is considered. The Bengalis themselves preferred to remain aloof about their
films.

>> >you honestly say that there are no worthy successors to this legacy? Or
>> >(as seems more likely the case) have the students who learned under these
>> >masters not yet been "discovered"?
>>
>> So whose fault is it ? Do you think someone conspired to keep them
>> un"discovered" ?
>
>I suppose that is one possibility (re my other posts). On the other hand
>I guess (since no one suggested otherwise) that _perhaps_ there are
>no worthy successors. I will have to ask with my friends and relatives in
>Calcutta to see what they think. I only know that in America, one can't
>FIND new films by young Bengali directors. In the mean time, if anyone
>on this ng knows of good, "young" Bengali directors, could you please
>forward a list to my email address below?
>

I am posting a related stuff in a new thread that may make some
interesting reading. Let me know what you think about it.

Thanks,
Arnab.

[Arindam Banerjee]

Faiz Kabir <af...@ped-surg.med.tohoku.ac.jp> wrote:

> The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to represent
> Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with
> Bangladesh?

Perhaps because then the average GNP for the West Bengali would reduce
by 40% ?

Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?

Alas for dreams and aspirations! Cash and jobs are more important to most than
the dreams of poets.

> The significance of Bangladesh was not the representation of Bangali
> nationalism. It was rather for the representation of the Bangladeshi
> people.

Very true. They won independence after a hard struggle.

The aspirations of Bangladeshi bangalis are quite different
> from that of the bangalis of West Bengal.

I do not know about the aspirations of Bangladeshi bangalis or
WBengali bangalis, but as a Bihari bangali my humble aspiration is
survival with some dignity.

The Bangalis of West Bengal
> consider themselves more Indian than Bangali.

These days this seems true at least in Calcutta. When you talk in
Bengali to the tradesmen quite a few reply in Hindi. The Bengalis
in Calcutta say that in 50 years Bengali will be spoken only in homes,
at this rate.

So it's obvious that
> they will not join us in the name of Bangali nationalism

Bangladeshis do try hard to persuade WBengalis that India is persecuting
them. I found that out soon after I came to Australia. "How is India
mistreating you?" was the leading question.

because that
> will remove their Indian identity a concept which I don't understand
> well.

The Indian indentity gives Indian bengalis jobs. And later on, when
bangalis become smarter, business opportunities as well. People such
as I, with no family connections in WBengal, could get a good job
with the Indian identity, somewhere in India.

Because Bangladeshis are not Indians, they
have to come illegally to work in India, and get needlessly
persecuted. Whereas Biharis can work safely in such rich states as
Punjab.

All this language and culture stuff is for the elite.

Regards,
Arindam Banerjee
Disclaimer: My opinions do not involve my employer.
>
> Sincerely,
> Faiz Kabir

[Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay]

Namoskar--

On Sun, 2 Mar 1997, Srabani Banerjee wrote:

> Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay wrote:
>
> [...]

>
> > > Pretty `hegemonic' way, I must say, in a democracy.
> >
> > First, India is a republic, not a democracy. Second, in ANY such
>

> aNya! `republic' hole `democracy' howa jay na? preamble-e je lekha
> chhilo `We, the people of India,....democratic republic...'!

What I am trying to amplify is the difference between a republic and a
democracy. A *pure* democracy can never be a republic... The Greeks
formed a democracy, Rome was a republic. In a democracy, EVERY PERSON
GETS ONE VOTE FOR EVERY ISSUE THAT FACES THE NATION. In a republic,
PEOPLE ARE ELECTED by vote; these elected officials casts votes on
"behalf" of the people on issues that face the nation. The only problem
(and a big one!) is that in a republic, the elected officials, if not
held accountable (which is easy in a nation with a large population),
will shirk their responsibility and cast votes on behalf of themselves
rather than for the best interest of the people they represent. And the
more people that these nations have, the more power is invested in the
elected officials, and the greater the potential for abuse.

India is, as you point out, a mixed system (a democratic republic). But it
DOES lean more towards a republic than a democracy.
__________________________________________________________________________
Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay
sapt...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu

[Faiz Kabir]

K.M. Maniruzzaman wrote:
>
> In article <5f2c4a$6v4$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N.
> Tiwari) wrote:
>
> >The employemnt of Urdu in E. Bengali affairs
> >precedes the creation of Pakistani state. In early 20th century
> >and late 19th century, there were powerful movements, brought in
> >from varrious place (UP, Bihar, Persia, S. Arabia) to inculcate
> >true Islamic mores amongst the Muslims of E. Bengal. For whatever
> >reasons, these movements, which are viewed as "reform" by a lot of
> >Bangladeshi nationalists of current times, did help the generation
> >of a distinct Bangladeshi identity. The strenght of these movements can be realized by things like:

Manir
ma...@okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
ma...@asami.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
URL: http://okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/okabelab/manir/manir.html
=====================================================================
"The rich get richer, the poor get children" -- G.B. Shaw

wrote :

> You sound like a Bangladeshi nationalist, though that doesn't
> come as a surprise given your support for BJP ideology. What is
> "a distinct Bangladeshi identity?" What is this distinction that
> makes me so different from my relatives in W. Bengal, and puts me
> into the same 'identity group' as my friend R. Chakma? Apart from
> citizenship, that is.

My comment :
There is not much difficulty to understand what a distinct Banhladeshi
identity is. Right after Pakistan and India was created there had been
a common style adopted by both Pakistani as well as Indian politicians
to seperate the people completely on the basis of Pakistani and Indian
identity.The Pakistanis wanted to enforce the Pakistani colour more on
us by declaring Urdu as the only state language. And we rejected and
got independent. But what's happening in the other side. The Indian
politicians have been successful to enforce this Indian identity on
all the states.The domination of Hindi over other languages including
even powerful languages like Bangla is clear and quite well focused in
many SCB postings.
While all the ctizens of India will declare their Indian Identity
first with pride, we the Bangladshis find it shameful to tell our
Bangladeshi Identity first.Why ? What extra dignity is there in
telling people that we are not Bangladeshi?? Because Bangladesh is
poor? Because we don't have oil or because we aren't getting world
attention for any outstanding acheivements?? Shame to this sorts of
philosophy. If I say that I am a Bangladeshi it doesn't mean that I
have lost all connection from my relatives living in West Bengal.
Indeed the narrow slogan "We are all Bangalis and let every body in
Bangladesh be Bangali" has been the root cause of all the problems of
CHT and this was greatly acclerated by our leader Late Sheikh Mujibur
Rahman when he told a delegation of the tribal peoples to be Bangali
when they came to meet him upon his return from Pakistani Jail in
1972.
(part snipped)

>
>Many urban, or upper class, Muslims have names or 'padabis'
> similar to their Hindu counterparts, like Chowdhury, Biswas, Haldar,
> Thakur etc.<<

The padabis such as Biswas,Takur or Halder etc are not choosen
randomly to make some body's name glamorous. Indeed such padabis
reflect their Hindu ancestors who got converted to Islam but who
wished to keep the padabi as a family identity.Later generations just
continued to mentain them.

(part snipped)

> Some upper class Bengalis did. The fact is, many upper class
> Bengali Muslims indeed have such lineage, as their ancestors came to
> Bengal and settled here in the Sultanate/Mughal periods. But it

>becomesridiculous sad when people try to flaunt it as something to be
> proud of. It becomes stupid when someone claims that Bengali Muslims,in general, are descendants of Middle Easterners.

To you it may be an act of stupidity but the real pictuer is that
people do find pride in telling that they are descendants of Middle
Easterners. Of course I personally dislike this tendency to show
familial superiority.

(part snipped)

> There you are again, sounding like a Bangladeshi nationalist. Only
> the BN would tell you that his "Islamic identity" is "under constant
> attack" and "being purged by all sorts of forces."

This is a prejudiced and foolish statement. How can you say that a BN
will tell that his "Islamic identity" is "under constant
attack" and "being purged by all sorts of forces"? What is the basis
of your such general comment ?? Do you know that there are meny Hindu
leaders who do Bangladeshi Nationalistic politics(i.e. Goyesshaor Roy
of BNP) and will they say that their Islam is under attack??. It's
very sad that You are so ignorant of your own country.May be you may
find it befitting to your desire to become labelled as a progressive
by telling such untrue things. But it simply magnifies your
rootlessness.

A sovreign country will have a distinct set of aspirations. It's
interest will be very much different from that of the other countries.
And the people who will accept to be loyal to that country also become
one. No matter whether that puts R.Chakma within the same bracket with
Shombhu Das or Shajan Miah. In the definition of a country they are
all one and this is the time old universal truth. Otherwise the word
treason won't have existed.

Faiz Kabir

[N. Tiwari]

K.M. Maniruzzaman (ma...@okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) wrote:
: In article <5f2c4a$6v4$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N.
: Tiwari) wrote:

: >The employemnt of Urdu in E. Bengali affairs
: >precedes the creation of Pakistani state. In early 20th century
: >and late 19th century, there were powerful movements, brought in
: >from varrious place (UP, Bihar, Persia, S. Arabia) to inculcate
: >true Islamic mores amongst the Muslims of E. Bengal. For whatever
: >reasons, these movements, which are viewed as "reform" by a lot of
: >Bangladeshi nationalists of current times, did help the generation
: >of a distinct Bangladeshi identity. The strenght of these movements
: >can be realized by things like:

: You sound like a Bangladeshi nationalist, though that doesn't

: come as a surprise given your support for BJP ideology. What is
: "a distinct Bangladeshi identity?" What is this distinction that
: makes me so different from my relatives in W. Bengal, and puts me
: into the same 'identity group' as my friend R. Chakma? Apart from
: citizenship, that is.

No. I do not subscribe to the opinions expressed as written
by me. What I did was to simply put forward the opinions
and the basis of creation of modern BD. The fact that I
acknowledge that such a bunch of opinions exist, need not
imply that I endorse those opinions.

Going back to your question, as to what is a distinct Bdeshi
identity, I will say: Look towards Islam. The more a people
try to be Islamic, the more distinct they are doomed to become
from the nonIslamic people. It does not matter what color
you have, or what lang. you speak. Islam drives you in a
direction that homogenizes you with all the rest of the ummah,
and also demarcates your identity, vis a vis the non believers.
And that is what has been happening in BD beginning with the
"reform" movemements. That is difference between a "Chakma"
and a true Muslim. The difference may not be as acute in
real life, since the level of Islamiyat in Muslim varies too
much, depending on diverse factors.

: >
: >a) In almost no time, a lot of E Bengali Muslims started demanding

: > that Urdu be used in their schools, instead of Bangla. The reason
: > advanced for that was the Bangla is a Hindu language.

: How many were "a lot"? Who were they? Urdu-speaking 'Bengalis'
: (a la Suhrawardi) perhaps?

No Sir. They were indeed a lot. Read Rafi's shocking book to get
a feel of it. It was not just one, or two, or a thousand. They were
indeed a lot. One very good example of this midEasterninsation of the
Bdeshi Muslim is their very names. Prior to the reform movements
the nonAshrag Bdeshi Muslims have very Indian sounding names. However
as a consequence of the "reforms" almost overnight, Bengali Muslims
started having names, which sounded more Persian or Arabic.

: >b) In almost no time, a lot of Bengali Muslims assumed Persian and

: > midEastern names. Prior to these reform movements, the rural Bangali
: > Muslim had similar names to his Hindu counterparts.

: Wrong. The tradition of adopting an arabic name as a person
: converts to Islam is quite old and is not a result of those
: alleged late 19th and early 20th century reformers.
: Do you think those 'reformers' were responsible for, say,
: Cassius Clay changing his name to Muhammad Ali?

Do not diverge. WHen we speak of Bengal, the tradition of having
Arabic names is relatively new. Once again, Rafi's book details
into this issue too, and gives not just opinions, but also reasonable
amount of contemporary evidence to cite his claims.

: Many urban, or upper class, Muslims have names or 'padabis'

: similar to their Hindu counterparts, like Chowdhury, Biswas, Haldar,

: Thakur etc. Many rural Bangladeshis still have Bengali names,

: usually attached to some other name that identifies their faith,
: like Budhu Miah, Tunu Sheikh etc.

Yes. However, if you are aware, the proportion of this "Indian
sounding names" has fallen by large numbers. That is why I said
that the "reform" is still not complete.

: >c) In almost no time, Bengali Muslims tried to prove, despite all the

: > opposing evidence, that their genetic roots lay in midEast.

: Some upper class Bengalis did. The fact is, many upper class

: Bengali Muslims indeed have such lineage, as their ancestors came to Bengal
: and settled here in the Sultanate/Mughal periods. But it becomes

: ridiculous/sad when people try to flaunt it as something to be

: proud of. It becomes stupid when someone claims that Bengali Muslims,

: in general, are descendants of Middle Easterners.

It is stupid. But that is what happened. Rafi's book claims that as a
consequence of these "reforms" a MAJORITY of Bengali Muslims started to
claim that their roots lay elsewhere.

: >If you are looking at the roots of the schism between the Bdeshi

: >and Bengali identities, you have to go back to pre-independence
: >era. The process of separation started with large scale conversion
: >to Islam, followed by rejection of Indian identity and adoption of
: >Islamic (or midEastern) identity. It would be silly to argue that the
: >Bdeshi Muslim is 100% midEastern as of today. We still see very strong
: >remnants of Bengaliness in his cultural mores. But, as elsewhere,
: >this nativeness has always been under constant attack, and is being

: >constantly being purged by all sorts of forces.
: >

: There you are again, sounding like a Bangladeshi nationalist. Only

: the BN would tell you that his "Islamic identity" is "under constant
: attack" and "being purged by all sorts of forces."

YOu may not like it, but that is really what defines BD. Remove that
identity, and you will see no reason as to why BD should be different
from India.

--
Nachiketa Tiwari

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

Soumitra Bose wrote:

> Oho Apra , Lungi pore ghumonor se je ki onabil anondo !!! , Prokriti r
> sathe sei primordial jogoshutro !!!!

Amar ek classmate chilo, Nadim Haider. She boltho:

Rath e loongi pore ghumathe jai, shokale uthe dekhi, ami bichana-e,
lungi ta gor'er ek corner-e.

Moral: Lungi porle shudhu hobe na, tight kore gittu marthe hobe.

To quote Satyajit:
Lungi dhore maro tan
RAJA hobe khan khan

(eta-ke ekta double-entendre bola jethe pare? Naki holo na..Dhaka r
pharmacy viistor ra bujhben)

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

Apratim Sarkar wrote:
>
> In article <3316F1...@homebox.com> naeem.m...@homebox.com writes:
> >Apratim Sarkar wrote:
> >>
> >> Bengali culture niye alochona hochchhe dekhe khub bhalo laglo.
> >
> >> Arnab bade. O je e'i niye kichhu bojhe na sheta ekdom clear.
> >
> >Bolchen ki? Thahole amake je etho lomba lomba lecture dicche?
>
> Ekdom patta deben na. Amra cholun anecdotal evidence'r jore
> collective hahutash kori, o byata spoilsport, stats dekhay.
> Amader puro moja mati.

Dhaka r bhasha e: Statistics? Hey-da abar ki? Khai na pinde?

Obosshyo, jokhon amar statistics hath-e thake. thokhon ami ek NOMBOR<
line er prohtom e darie chechabo:
"Oy byata, statistics dekha, eyshob anecdotes die ki hobe?"

Ey na hole bangali.. :-)

> Lungi'o pari na. Hapu pore ghumoi. Boleichhilum shakto case.

Hapu ki? Half-pant?.. Baba re, doraisi!

[Zakiul Kabir]

Bangladesh was born because we wanted out from Pakistan. Religion was
never the driving force. I don't know if there is any thing called
Bengali nationalism. If there is, it is probably a creation of the
confusing politics, it has nothing to do with patriotism.

Thanks.

Zaki

On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:24:43 +0000, Ashik <as...@coventry.ac.uk>
wrote:

>Hello People,
>
>Someone recently asked me a questioned that I was unable to answer -- I
>wonder if anyone can help...

>
>The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to represent
>Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with

>Bangladesh? Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?
>
>I would appreciate any feedback. Dhanyabad.
>
>-Regards. Ashik.
>
> --.--
>
>

[sayan bhattacharyya]

Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:

>txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu writes:
>
>>> E'i latest dhong'ta besh cholche abashyo ajkaal.
>>

>>Kontake latest dhong bolchcho Apra? Seriously, majaki na.
>
> O'i dhak-dhol pitiye dui-Bangla'r link ityadi.

As readers of this newsgroup know, I am myself convinced that
pre-occupation with redrawing political boundaries of nation-states
is unproductive waste of energy in this day and age, where globalization
has virtually made the nation-state irrelevant.

Thus, my position in this question is probably quite opposed to that of Naeem,
Soumitra and Shoumyo.

Having said that, I have to add that Apratim's use of the word "dhong" in
this context is extremely objectionable, un-called-for and questionable.
True, Naeem, Shoumyo and Soumitra seem to be in favor of somethinng that
I (and possibly Apratim) think to be irrelevant. But that does not mean
that Naeem, Shoumyo and Soumitro are doing this out of "dhong" as Apratim
snidely implies. They have certain reasons for thinking what they think,
and in fact all of them have on various occasins spelt out their reasons
for thinking that way. Now I may (and in fact I do) think that their
reasons are wrong, but that does not mean that they are simply doing this
out of "dhong" as Apratim suggests. They are thinking human beings who
can think for themselves and when they take a position it is because they
have arrived at that position after having thought it through. To glibly
ascribe their beliefs to "being fashionable", as Apratim has done, is
sheer slander. Those who disagree with them should approach their
position with respect, and counter their position logically, providing
_arguments_ as to why unification is not such a good idea or such a
high-priority idea.

Dismissals consisting of snide and content-free one-liners, such as the
one Apratim made, should be criticized. While such content-free
rejoinders may possibly be amusing to certain kinds of people who
leave their brains in the safe deposit vault before they open their
newsreader, I am sure that even they are bound to feel such juvenile
attempts at humor somewhat sterile after a while. But then, one-liners
are all we have come to expect from certain posters. It will be too much,
after all, to expect substance from them, if past experience is any guide!

[sayan bhattacharyya]

Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay wrote:
>
>[...]
>

>> > Pretty `hegemonic' way, I must say, in a democracy.
>>
>> First, India is a republic, not a democracy. Second, in ANY such
>

>aNya! `republic' hole `democracy' howa jay na?

Well, India is neither (in practice).

It is not a democracy because elections in India are largely decided by money
power.

It is not a republic because, in these days of globalization and domination
by transnational corporations, policy decisions are increasingly taken
according to directives of extra-Indian entities, such as international
lending institutions and the like.

(Of course, it is unfair to single out India for this, as this is true
of a depressingly large number of countries in these times).

>preamble-e je lekha
>chhilo `We, the people of India,....democratic republic...'!

lekha to koto kichhu-i thake.

Don't forget that the ex East Germmany, as brutal, authoritarian and
undemocratic a regime as can be, chose to call itself GDR, or German
DEMOCRATIC Republic. Was it democratic ? NO!

It is not what is written in documents which counts. It is what happens
in practice, which really counts.

[Supratic Gupta]

N. Tiwari wrote:

> I am more or less in agreement with your post, except for the
> first paragraph. The employemnt of Urdu in E. Bengali affairs

> precedes the creation of Pakistani state. In early 20th century
> and late 19th century, there were powerful movements, brought in
> from varrious place (UP, Bihar, Persia, S. Arabia) to inculcate
> true Islamic mores amongst the Muslims of E. Bengal.

I think I heard that there were indeed a movement that predates
Independence where they tried to write a few books in Urdu Srcipt.

But did bengali of BD try to learn URDU? I have a friend from
west Bengal who says that for him, bengali and Urdu are equal almost.
But was indeed true for mazority in Bangladesh?

I doubt.

> For whatever
> reasons, these movements, which are viewed as "reform" by a lot of
> Bangladeshi nationalists of current times, did help the generation
> of a distinct Bangladeshi identity.

Can you explain if you are refering to the use of URDU script or URDU
language? If so, please provide details.

Next, in what sence the got an extra identity from URDU language, when
their Quran was already translated to Bengali. People started learning
ARABIC, yes that gave an identity, but where did URDU come in? What
identity
can URDU provide to bengalis?

> The strenght of these movements
> can be realized by things like:
>

> a) In almost no time, a lot of E Bengali Muslims started demanding
> that Urdu be used in their schools, instead of Bangla. The reason
> advanced for that was the Bangla is a Hindu language.

I don't know if this is correct or not. Can you provide source or
events,
or can some one from Bangladesh confirm?

But more important question was how much did it succed or create impulse
in the muslim comunity in Bangaldesh(Eastern part), please don't confuse
the eastern part which is closer to Bihar.

> b) In almost no time, a lot of Bengali Muslims assumed Persian and
> midEastern names. Prior to these reform movements, the rural Bangali
> Muslim had similar names to his Hindu counterparts.

Agreed, But the names are not URDU, they are merely Islamic.

> c) In almost no time, Bengali Muslims tried to prove, despite all the

> opposing evidence, that their genetic roots lay in midEast. This
> was ridiculed by the Ashraf classes, since so far, only they could
> claim a midEastern lineage. Now, an entire "quom" was doing the same.

well, people often do funny roots to get adventage. If they did, we
shouldnot
blame them Surely they had reason like they were trying to come out of
caste system
etc.

>
> If you are looking at the roots of the schism between the Bdeshi
> and Bengali identities, you have to go back to pre-independence
> era.

Actually you are confusing the issue. The point is when they were
together, they might have got adventages by using the points you
mentioned.
But when they became one with Pakistan, they now had to compit with
Pakistani people. They would ofcourse loose.

I won't mind calling myself a knowledgable person in Hindi here in
Japan,
but would not try so in delhi.

When they were with Pakistan, it was their bengali heritage that made
them distinct.
So they tried to protect it. But that cannot be the only reason for
seperation. Economic reason and Mujib not allowed as PM was as big
reason.

Hence I don't believe they faught for only Bengali. But Pakistan
cornered
them, they had no other way.

> The process of separation started with large scale conversion
> to Islam, followed by rejection of Indian identity and adoption of
> Islamic (or midEastern) identity.

Islamic identity is not opposite of Indian Identity. It is counter part
of Hindu identity.

One can still love India and be Indian while mentaining Islaimic
identity.

> It would be silly to argue that the
> Bdeshi Muslim is 100% midEastern as of today.

I didnot get you.

>We still see very strong
> remnants of Bengaliness in his cultural mores. But, as elsewhere,
> this nativeness has always been under constant attack, and is being
> constantly being purged by all sorts of forces.
>

> --
> Nachiketa Tiwari

[Shoumyo Dasgupta]

Apratim Sarkar wrote:

>
> "EQUAL" basis'e cultural exchange mane thik ki? Apni Roma Mondol'r
> egaroti gaan shunle amake'o Iffat Ara Khan'r egaroti shunte hobe?
> Apni shune jatota anando pelen amar ki tar theke beshi-kom anando
> paowa allowed? Meter boshate hobe ki?
>
> Modda, cultural exchange'r unit of measure'ti ki jate kore "EQUAL"-ity
> mapa hobe?
>
> Aro, dhorun amar IAK bhalo lage na, taholeo ki amake jor kore
> "EQUAL"-ity'r khatire shunte hobe? [Shuni ni, tai bhalo lagbe ki na
> jani na.] Dekhun e to ar trade deficit noi. Simple bhalo laga'r
> case. Apni apnar priyo shilpi'ke recommend korun, ami amar. Tarpor
> ke shunlo ke shunlo na, sheti ki personal choice na?

Thik katha.

Amar mone hoy shomoshya-ta onyotro. Kono karone (janina) Bharotiyo
Bangla boi Bangladeshey prochur jaay, kintu Bangladesher khuuuuub olpo
koyekjoner boi baad dile Poshchim Bonge amra tar kichchui pray dekhte
paina.

Bodhoy shongeet-chorchar khetreo tai, kintu eta ami thik janina idaning
poribortito hoyechche kina.

Amar mone hoy equal exchange bolte Naeem ei porimaangoto parthokyer
kathai bojhachchey.

Shoumyo.

[Soumitra Bose]

Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
>
> Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
> > Oho Apra , Lungi pore ghumonor se je ki onabil anondo !!! , Prokriti r
> > sathe sei primordial jogoshutro !!!!
>
> Amar ek classmate chilo, Nadim Haider. She boltho:
>
> Rath e loongi pore ghumathe jai, shokale uthe dekhi, ami bichana-e,
> lungi ta gor'er ek corner-e.
>
> Moral: Lungi porle shudhu hobe na, tight kore gittu marthe hobe.
>
> To quote Satyajit:
> Lungi dhore maro tan
> RAJA hobe khan khan
>
> (eta-ke ekta double-entendre bola jethe pare? Naki holo na..Dhaka r
> pharmacy viistor ra bujhben)
>

> --
> Naeem Mohaiemen
> _____________________________________________________
> Everyone's your friend in New York City
> And everything looks beautiful when you're young and pretty
> The streets are paved with diamond and there's just so much to see
>

> ______________________________________________________

Aha Ha ha ! Naeem Gorhito blasphemous kotha bolle fatwa r under e porte
hobe ....Satyajit babu Lungyi pore barite thakten , Interview o lungyi
pore diten.
Ar Raja r Lunigyi dhore tan mara ki ar charti khani kotha . Upomohadesher
tabor taboro neta ra to tomar tan er aotai pore jaben ......

[Sambit Basu]

asa...@bu.edu (Apratim Sarkar) writes:

>Naeem Mohaiemen (naeem.m...@homebox.com) wrote:

>: Let's just do one thing (greater cultural exchange on an EQUAL basis)
>: for now, and see what results

> Economic niye amar kono montobyo nei.

> "EQUAL" basis'e cultural exchange mane thik ki? Apni Roma Mondol'r
> egaroti gaan shunle amake'o Iffat Ara Khan'r egaroti shunte hobe?
> Apni shune jatota anando pelen amar ki tar theke beshi-kom anando
> paowa allowed? Meter boshate hobe ki?

"Equal" shobdo-ta dekhle-i ki tumi meter-er khNoj koro?
"Equal opportunity"-teo? Apurbababu-r moton tomar
haate-goDa bhai-ra ki shikhbe Apra?

Sambit

[Naeem Mohaiemen]

sayan bhattacharyya wrote:

> As readers of this newsgroup know, I am myself convinced that
> pre-occupation with redrawing political boundaries of nation-states
> is unproductive waste of energy in this day and age, where globalization
> has virtually made the nation-state irrelevant.

> Thus, my position in this question is probably quite opposed to that of Naeem,
> Soumitra and Shoumyo.

None of my posts have said anything ADVOCATING redrawing political
boundaries of the Two Bengals.

I have thrown out the topic for discussion, yes. But not dvocated that
action.

Myself, I am certainly in favor of much greater cross-border
cultural/economic exchanges between the Two Bengals.

Should borders be redrawn? My verdict is still out on this.

Let's just do one thing (greater cultural exchange on an EQUAL basis)
for now, and see what results

Pretty soon, borders anywhere may be redundant, as you say.

> True, Naeem, Shoumyo and Soumitra seem to be in favor of somethinng that
> I (and possibly Apratim) think to be irrelevant.

-see comments above-

> ascribe their beliefs to "being fashionable"

Janen na? Amar shob post done to be fashionable. :-)

Chakma, women, Hindu, nomshkar, etc :-)

> Dismissals consisting of snide and content-free one-liners, such as the
> one Apratim made, should be criticized.

Sayan,

Thumi kinthu besh khepecho.

But honestly, I did not think anything of it.

Eta emon kono guruthoro pap noi je criticize korthe hobe.

AS made a very mild crack by SCB standards. It's not a big deal (to me,
anyway).

On with the debate..

--
Naeem Mohaiemen
_____________________________________________________
Everyone's your friend in New York City
And everything looks beautiful when you're young and pretty
The streets are paved with diamond and there's just so much to see

[Apratim Sarkar]

Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>Oho Apra , Lungi pore ghumonor se je ki onabil anondo !!! , Prokriti r

>sathe sei primordial jogoshutro !!!! Majhe majhe chesta kore dekhoi na ,
>e ekebare moksholabh . Bojho na Toari shorirer dui ongsher modhye tumi
>ar tomar ekanto nijoshota chara keu nei , aha ha ha ! ke je abishkar
>korechilo ei lungyi .Naturalistic Aesthetics er opore Nobel prize thakle
>sei MAnushtir oboshoi seta prapyo.

Sheet'r rattire shunechhi gaye diyeo shoya jay dorkar hole. Lungi
sammondhe amar as such kono hangup nei. Tobe boRo gher'r pajama'i
ba noy kyano? E byapare Naeem'r, Sayan'r, Saptarshibabu'r shuchintito
motamat jante agrohi.

[Apratim Sarkar]

bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:

>As readers of this newsgroup know, I am myself convinced that
>pre-occupation with redrawing political boundaries of nation-states
>is unproductive waste of energy in this day and age, where globalization
>has virtually made the nation-state irrelevant.
>
>Thus, my position in this question is probably quite opposed to that of Naeem,
>Soumitra and Shoumyo.
>

>Having said that, I have to add that Apratim's use of the word "dhong" in
>this context is extremely objectionable, un-called-for and questionable.

>True, Naeem, Shoumyo and Soumitra seem to be in favor of somethinng that

>I (and possibly Apratim) think to be irrelevant. But that does not mean
>that Naeem, Shoumyo and Soumitro are doing this out of "dhong" as Apratim
>snidely implies. They have certain reasons for thinking what they think,
>and in fact all of them have on various occasins spelt out their reasons
>for thinking that way. Now I may (and in fact I do) think that their
>reasons are wrong, but that does not mean that they are simply doing this
>out of "dhong" as Apratim suggests. They are thinking human beings who
>can think for themselves and when they take a position it is because they
>have arrived at that position after having thought it through. To glibly
>ascribe their beliefs to "being fashionable", as Apratim has done, is
>sheer slander. Those who disagree with them should approach their
>position with respect, and counter their position logically, providing
>_arguments_ as to why unification is not such a good idea or such a
>high-priority idea.
>

>Dismissals consisting of snide and content-free one-liners, such as the

>one Apratim made, should be criticized. While such content-free
>rejoinders may possibly be amusing to certain kinds of people who
>leave their brains in the safe deposit vault before they open their
>newsreader, I am sure that even they are bound to feel such juvenile
>attempts at humor somewhat sterile after a while. But then, one-liners
>are all we have come to expect from certain posters. It will be too much,
>after all, to expect substance from them, if past experience is any guide!

Tobe je tumi personal email'e bolle obhimaan karoni!!! Amar shonge
e'i maan-obhimaan'r khela ar kotodin khelbe Sayan?

[Apratim Sarkar]

Naeem Mohaiemen (naeem.m...@homebox.com) wrote:

: Myself, I am certainly in favor of much greater cross-border

: cultural/economic exchanges between the Two Bengals.

: Let's just do one thing (greater cultural exchange on an EQUAL basis)

: for now, and see what results

Economic niye amar kono montobyo nei.

"EQUAL" basis'e cultural exchange mane thik ki? Apni Roma Mondol'r
egaroti gaan shunle amake'o Iffat Ara Khan'r egaroti shunte hobe?
Apni shune jatota anando pelen amar ki tar theke beshi-kom anando
paowa allowed? Meter boshate hobe ki?

Modda, cultural exchange'r unit of measure'ti ki jate kore "EQUAL"-ity
mapa hobe?

Aro, dhorun amar IAK bhalo lage na, taholeo ki amake jor kore
"EQUAL"-ity'r khatire shunte hobe? [Shuni ni, tai bhalo lagbe ki na
jani na.] Dekhun e to ar trade deficit noi. Simple bhalo laga'r
case. Apni apnar priyo shilpi'ke recommend korun, ami amar. Tarpor
ke shunlo ke shunlo na, sheti ki personal choice na?

Apratim.

PS: Recommend korun, ager bar e'i anurodh korate arekjon bhadrolok
bollen age amake kotha dite hobe je amar bhalo lagbe, shroddha jagbe
mone, tobe uni recommend korben. Emon pre-condition ki cultural
appreciation/exchange'e chole, apnar ki mone hoy?

[Apratim Sarkar]

naeem.m...@homebox.com writes:
>Apratim Sarkar wrote:

>> Ekdom patta deben na. Amra cholun anecdotal evidence'r jore
>> collective hahutash kori, o byata spoilsport, stats dekhay.
>> Amader puro moja mati.
>
>Dhaka r bhasha e: Statistics? Hey-da abar ki? Khai na pinde?
>
>Obosshyo, jokhon amar statistics hath-e thake. thokhon ami ek NOMBOR<
>line er prohtom e darie chechabo:
>"Oy byata, statistics dekha, eyshob anecdotes die ki hobe?"
>
>Ey na hole bangali.. :-)

Bhaiyya!

>> Lungi'o pari na. Hapu pore ghumoi. Boleichhilum shakto case.
>
>Hapu ki? Half-pant?.. Baba re, doraisi!

Half-pajama actually, boDo gher'r, special order diye banano.

[Supratic Gupta]

Faiz Kabir wrote:

>
> The significance of Bangladesh was not the representation of Bangali
> nationalism. It was rather for the representation of the Bangladeshi

> people. The aspirations of Bangladeshi bangalis are quite different
> from that of the bangalis of West Bengal. The Bangalis of West Bengal

> consider themselves more Indian than Bangali.

False, we don't thing either identity has conflict with each other
about what is first and is second.

Like tell me one thing: who is more important to you - mother or wife?
This question is really important in life and causes many problems
in all society.

Best solution is if which is first is not questioned.

Like when asked, are you a muslim first or India, I know muslims will
say
Muslim first. Does it mean insult to India?

I don't think so.

I always say I am a bengali, from Assam who is an Indian.

>So it's obvious that

> they will not join us in the name of Bangali nationalism because that

> will remove their Indian identity a concept which I don't understand
> well.

Not true again. It is not a question of identity. It is a question of
benifit.

Bangladesh wouldnot have formed if Pakistani people would not have
forced language or did the economic problem. Hence don't bark too much
on
bengali nationalism.

If you are so strong in bengali nationalism why did you opt for being
part
of Pakistan in the first place and desert us for 25 years?

Why did you not demand a seperate bengal, secular bengal then?

Be sincere please. At least don't insult and misrepresent us.

>
> Sincerely,
> Faiz Kabir

[Dadu]

Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay wrote:
>
> Namoskar--
>
> On 27 Feb 1997, Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
..del..

> > 5.In Taj Bengal, once I had to go and meet somebody. I approached the
> > reception and asked for the persons room number and the permission to use
> > the house phone. The women in the counter was Bengali (the name tag
> > showed a Bengali surname). All my questions were in Bengali and all her
> > replies were in English.
>
> This happened to us at the Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose airport (formerly
> known as Dum-Dum). Upon leaving, airport manager took exception to our
> baggage, and argued with us in English, as we argued with him in
> Bengali. I suppose that because it's an international airport, however,
> that this was excusable.

Saptarshi and Nalinaksha,

Yes, I've also noticed the same. I visited companies, jumped arround
hotels and restaurants and had to go the Banks. The moment people
understood I live abroad, they started speaking in English, and when
they didn't, continued in Hindi. Amusingly even if I declared a
reasonably good knowledge of Bengali, and spoke in Bengali, things
didn't change. Last in 'Kwality', when I spoke with one waiter in Oriya
(my brother-in-law taught me), he took a notice not to speak Hindi.

But these things are related to a number of social-cultural-economic
factors, where I think, people started to believe that, business has to
be "Non-Bengali", or this 'moder gorob...' etc. may be good for Sunil
Ganguly et al, but lacks the strength to sustain business. Probably, the
Bengali intellectuals done their part of harm to Bengali language as
well.

Dadu

[N. Tiwari]

Supratic Gupta (gu...@doboku2.ace.nitech.ac.jp) wrote:

: N. Tiwari wrote:

: > I am more or less in agreement with your post, except for the
: > first paragraph. The employemnt of Urdu in E. Bengali affairs
: > precedes the creation of Pakistani state. In early 20th century
: > and late 19th century, there were powerful movements, brought in
: > from varrious place (UP, Bihar, Persia, S. Arabia) to inculcate
: > true Islamic mores amongst the Muslims of E. Bengal.

: I think I heard that there were indeed a movement that predates
: Independence where they tried to write a few books in Urdu Srcipt.

: But did bengali of BD try to learn URDU? I have a friend from
: west Bengal who says that for him, bengali and Urdu are equal almost.
: But was indeed true for mazority in Bangladesh?

: I doubt.

Supraticji:

Yes, the majority did not learn Urdu. But there was a very strong
and concerted effort to teach Urdu. The proponents of this Urdu
thing were not just the Ashraf uppies, but also the rural maulvis,
pirs, and kazis. There are records, which show that the employment
of Urdu, Arabic and Persian was almost unanimously advocated by
all these folks, to ensure that the Islamic identity of Bengali
Muslims got enhanced. THis was despite the fact, that a majority
of the very same proponents did not themselves know almost any
of Urdu, Arabic or Persian. One reason why they did not advocate
in favor of Bangla was that Bangla was considered as Hindu lang.
And they were too scared to advocate for usage of English, since
it was their belief that English came with cultural baggage of its
own, which could pollute the Islamic culture.

: > For whatever

: > reasons, these movements, which are viewed as "reform" by a lot of
: > Bangladeshi nationalists of current times, did help the generation
: > of a distinct Bangladeshi identity.

: Can you explain if you are refering to the use of URDU script or URDU
: language? If so, please provide details.

The Persian script, and Urdu lang.

: Next, in what sence the got an extra identity from URDU language, when

: their Quran was already translated to Bengali. People started learning
: ARABIC, yes that gave an identity, but where did URDU come in? What
: identity
: can URDU provide to bengalis?

Frankly, this question should be asked to the Bengali Muslims. If
a community feels that a particular lang. is more dear to it, than
other langs, for reasons of identity, then I will accept that. For
instance why is it that WB tries hard to impart training in Urdu.
It is not just for linguistic reasons. Perhaps the strongest reason
is that a lot of Muslims consider it to be "their" lang. That is
the overall situtation. Perhaps, it is for this very reason why
Punjabi, and SIndhi got replaced by Urdu in Pakistan.

: > The strenght of these movements

: > can be realized by things like:
: >
: > a) In almost no time, a lot of E Bengali Muslims started demanding
: > that Urdu be used in their schools, instead of Bangla. The reason
: > advanced for that was the Bangla is a Hindu language.

: I don't know if this is correct or not. Can you provide source or
: events,
: or can some one from Bangladesh confirm?

The Bengal Muslims, 1871-1906: a quest for identity
Rafiuddin Ahmed, Oxford Univ. Press, 1981

: But more important question was how much did it succed or create impulse

: in the muslim comunity in Bangaldesh(Eastern part), please don't confuse
: the eastern part which is closer to Bihar.

The success IMO was partial. A lot of this had to do with the
mess up as created by Pakistan. However, the "reform" did go
a long way in the sense that it led to the change of names.
For instance, the number of Bdeshi Muslims with Indian sounding
names, is very less as compared to the corresponding number in
1900's. Further, this Islamic identity I believe led to the
declaration of Islam as the official religion of Bdesh.

These two changes, IMO are very significant. The first indicates
that there has been a very major shift in psychlogical profile of
the average Bengali Muslim. From an Islamic prespective, one can
argue that a lot still remains to be done, but then from the very
same prespective, a lot has been achieved too. The latter change
is a reflection of the first one, in the sense that it was perhaps
one major attempt to institutionalize the role of Islam in the days
and lives of Bengali Muslims.

: > b) In almost no time, a lot of Bengali Muslims assumed Persian and

: > midEastern names. Prior to these reform movements, the rural Bangali
: > Muslim had similar names to his Hindu counterparts.

: Agreed, But the names are not URDU, they are merely Islamic.

Exactly.


: > c) In almost no time, Bengali Muslims tried to prove, despite all the

: > opposing evidence, that their genetic roots lay in midEast. This
: > was ridiculed by the Ashraf classes, since so far, only they could
: > claim a midEastern lineage. Now, an entire "quom" was doing the same.

well, people often do funny roots to get adventage. If they did, we
: shouldnot

: blame them Surely they had reason like they were trying to come out of
: caste system
: etc.

No. That is not accurate. The people we are talking about
are still afflicted by caste. The claim of midEastern lineage
was not done to get out of caste bonds. It was made to gain
respectability. Earlier, it were just the Ashrafs, who could
claim a nonIndian descent. And that was one reason that gave
them respect. Now it was the entire ummah, to somehow falsely
prove that they were not Indians at all.

: >
: > If you are looking at the roots of the schism between the Bdeshi

: > and Bengali identities, you have to go back to pre-independence
: > era.

: Actually you are confusing the issue. The point is when they were
: together, they might have got adventages by using the points you
: mentioned.
: But when they became one with Pakistan, they now had to compit with
: Pakistani people. They would ofcourse loose.

: I won't mind calling myself a knowledgable person in Hindi here in
: Japan,
: but would not try so in delhi.

: When they were with Pakistan, it was their bengali heritage that made
: them distinct.
: So they tried to protect it. But that cannot be the only reason for
: seperation. Economic reason and Mujib not allowed as PM was as big
: reason.

: Hence I don't believe they faught for only Bengali. But Pakistan
: cornered
: them, they had no other way.

I partially agree with you. I am aware that the creation of
Bdesh had very strong "regional" reasons. In the sense that
Mujib was wronged. Or that EBengal was deprived of money.
Or that the Bengali identity was needlessly suppressed. All
these were powerful factors. And it was for these reasons
that Bdesh got created. Or else, from an Islamic prespective
there was no need of BD at all.

However, independence from Pak could have also meant joining
the Indian union. Or atleast trying to de-emphasize on the
Islamic part of it. That did not happen. And in that sense,
Islam was the dominant reason. Modern BD, as I view it is
fighting a battle between its Islamiyat and Bangali-ness.
And it is my judgement that the former is ahead in the race.
But the struggle is still not over.

: > The process of separation started with large scale conversion

: > to Islam, followed by rejection of Indian identity and adoption of
: > Islamic (or midEastern) identity.

India as I know it owes heavily to Hinduness. In the sense that
there is no advocacy of "this is the only approach" attitude.
In case of Islam, you have to shed everything and adopt the
one and the only one Islam. That is a fundamemtal difference.
If you try to Islamize myself, there is no way that I can cohabit
for ever with Indian-ness. I could do so for the time being for
tactical reasons, however. That is precisely the notion behind
Dar-ul-Harb. That live with alternate systems, as long as you
are the underdog. And when you are on the top of things, it
is one's Islamic duty to shed everything and be just a Muslim.

: One can still love India and be Indian while mentaining Islaimic
: identity.

See above.

Nachiketa Tiwari

[Dadu]

sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Arnab Gupta <GUP...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> >Sayan Bhattacharya wrote:
> >
> >>Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> >>>sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I think there is a simple explanation for that. Up until the 60s,
> >>>> films weren't as expensive to make as they became later. So the
> >>>> industry wasn't as capital-intensive as it was to become later,
> >>>> and consequently, players with lesser capital at their disposal
> >>>> could still be effective players in the market.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Good point. But does the same theory apply to other regional film
> >>>industries in India, like Telegu or Tamil or Malayalam ..?
> >>
> >>
> >>For reasons of linguistic cognate-ness, Hindi is much more
> >>comprehensible to a native speaker of Bengali than it is to
> >>a native speaker of the Dravidian languages you mention. Thus,
> >>Hindi film wasn't able to make as much headway into the
> >>Dravidian market as it could into the Bengali market.
> >
> >This does not address the `capital' issue.
>
> It does. If many people in region A simply don't understand Hindi,
> then they have no option but to see local-language films. This
> increases the box-office receipts for local-language films, thus
> generating more capital to invest in the local-language film
> industry. There is a feedback loop here with positive feedback.

No, not at all!

Bangalore probably harbours the largest viewing capacity per capita
(both in number of halls and sitting capacity) in the World (my guess).
Even remore theatres, run pack houses of Hindi movies.

In earlier days, I never understood holiwood English. None of my friends
did understand much either. But, we went to watch english and hindi
movies only, except for some Bengali comedy. The issue was, Hindi and
English movies were more entertaining than Bengali films. While people
in South were didn't favour speaking Hindi, they watched Hindi movies
freely. Sayan's above statement is presupposed rather than witnessed.

If Sayan knows or not, some specific South films (specially Malayali)
had a good market in Calcutta and subburb as well. Verbal Language was
totally insignificant to the audience. But I don't remember any Bengali
movie running in any commercial movie halls (except for special shows)
outside Bengal.

I personally believe, other than Uttamkumar, nobody (including Soumitra)
could drag a romantic movie along. The Bengali audience has been equally
poised for 'masala' stuff, which was relatively abundant in Hindi and
Southi films. Supporting features, like colour (which came much later in
Bengali films than Hindi and South films), photography, music etc. were
much inferior in Bengali movies. Last November I tried to watch one
Prasenjit starar, I couldn't stay more than 20 minutes. Things didn't
change much.

In Europe, there is a much bigger market for regional (and not dubbed)
movies than I guess in US. The trend is also much changed; not the old
holiwood masalas (sex, violence etc.) are working very well.

Dadu

[sayan bhattacharyya]

In article <5ffu47$o...@news.bu.edu>, Apratim Sarkar <asa...@bu.edu> wrote:

>Naeem Mohaiemen (naeem.m...@homebox.com) wrote:
>
>: Let's just do one thing (greater cultural exchange on an EQUAL basis)
>: for now, and see what results
>
> Economic niye amar kono montobyo nei.
>
> "EQUAL" basis'e cultural exchange mane thik ki? Apni Roma Mondol'r
> egaroti gaan shunle amake'o Iffat Ara Khan'r egaroti shunte hobe?
> Apni shune jatota anando pelen amar ki tar theke beshi-kom anando
> paowa allowed? Meter boshate hobe ki?

I think EQUAL here refers to equal opportunity, i.e. governments on neither
side should block cultural influx from the other side. This has not been the
case in the past.

[sayan bhattacharyya]

Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
>bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>

>>But then, one-liners
>>are all we have come to expect from certain posters. It will be too much,
>>after all, to expect substance from them, if past experience is any guide!
>
> Tobe je tumi personal email'e bolle obhimaan karoni!!! Amar shonge
> e'i maan-obhimaan'r khela ar kotodin khelbe Sayan?

Apratim is true to form. He is now back to his habit of quoting personal
email in public forums.

[N. Tiwari]

Distribution: world

Faiz kabir (af...@ped-surg.med.tohoku.ac.jp) wrote:

: Arindam Banerjee wrote:
:
: > > The significance of Bangladesh was not the representation of Bangali
: > > nationalism. It was rather for the representation of the Bangladeshi
: > > people.

: > Very true. They won independence after a hard struggle.
:
: > The aspirations of Bangladeshi bangalis are quite different

: > > from that of the bangalis of West Bengal.

:
: > I do not know about the aspirations of Bangladeshi bangalis or

: > WBengali bangalis, but as a Bihari bangali my humble aspiration is
: > survival with some dignity.

: The aspirations of Bangladeshis are that they be recognised as an
: independent nation in the world.They will prosper although at present
: nothing significant has been achieved. But I am not frustrated for
: that. We are a relatively young nation. We will find our day of course
: provided your Indian hegemonistic design doesn't throttle our
: policies. We may be economically poor but we are not culturally
: subservient like you .

I take strong exception to this. What is it that is
so hegemonistic about India. As far as BD is concerned.
What specific act(s) towards BD make you feel that India
has behaved in a hegemonisitc way. You can have your
BD and do your things there. But do not start throwing
vague accusations, in the hope that if you throw them
10 times, it might stick atleast once.

Also, what is that you mean by: "not culturallly
subservient like you". Who is the "you". Is it
the "W. Bengali Hindus". And if that is what you
are talking about, what makes them subservient.

: > Because Bangladeshis are not Indians, they

: > have to come illegally to work in India, and get needlessly
: > persecuted. Whereas Biharis can work safely in such rich states as
: > Punjab.

: You are telling a NIRJALA lie.It has been a well known BJP propaganda
: to labell the WB Bangali muslims as Bangladeshi.Because they want to
: expell all the muslims of India. Indian Government also is propagating
: this lie in order to harass Bangladesh Government.

Regardless of what you might belive in, a lot of folks
in WB ARE from BD. Illegal immigrants. And their BD
identity was even accepted by your ex PM.

--
Nachiketa Tiwari

[Rajiv Shukla]

Dadu (Shyam.Ch...@hut.fi) wrote:
: >
: > This happened to us at the Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose airport (formerly

: > known as Dum-Dum). Upon leaving, airport manager took exception to our
: > baggage, and argued with us in English, as we argued with him in
: > Bengali. I suppose that because it's an international airport, however,
: > that this was excusable.

Who are you to excuse? Aren't we being tad high handed? After all it's upto
him/her if he/she decided to speak in English, isn't it?

:
: Saptarshi and Nalinaksha,

:
: Yes, I've also noticed the same. I visited companies, jumped arround
: hotels and restaurants and had to go the Banks. The moment people
: understood I live abroad, they started speaking in English, and when
: they didn't, continued in Hindi. Amusingly even if I declared a
: reasonably good knowledge of Bengali, and spoke in Bengali, things
: didn't change. Last in 'Kwality', when I spoke with one waiter in Oriya
: (my brother-in-law taught me), he took a notice not to speak Hindi.

Guess what? I went to India last year, this didn't happen to me.
Dibbyi moshai bangla bollam bank e, post office e, restaurants e,
dokan e, bajar e.

Rajiv

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rajiv Shukla My opinions are mine.
ra...@ctt.bellcore.com I don't speak for my
Bell Communications Research employer.

[An Tran]

> : > Because Bangladeshis are not Indians, they
> : > have to come illegally to work in India, and get needlessly
> : > persecuted. Whereas Biharis can work safely in such rich states as
> : > Punjab.
>
> : You are telling a NIRJALA lie.

What is a NIRJALA lie?

It has been a well known BJP propaganda
> : to labell the WB Bangali muslims as Bangladeshi.Because they want to
> : expell all the muslims of India. Indian Government also is propagating
> : this lie in order to harass Bangladesh Government.

Over the years 1982-1989, I had personally employed in my household in
Delhi/U.P Bangladeshi Muslim women as maidservants. These women
would take on Hindu names. They never concealed the fact that they had
come
illegally from Bangladesh. It was not even an open secret.

These people lived in a slum called Seemapuri, at the Delhi-UP border. The
men drove rickshaws when they wanted to work,
and the women worked as maids. The conditions in Seemapuri were very
poor. However, they seemed well adjusted. Our last maid (Jahanara) was
the
first of three wives. She did the income-generating, the second did the
housework
and looked after all the children and the third kept the man happy, playing
Ludo.
(I met the lucky chap, he really was charming.)

We first came to know them in the DTC bus 340. My wife spoke to me
in Bengali, and we heard this excited response from the rear:

"A maagi bongla koy!"

It was a new experience for my wife, as she had never been called a "maagi"
before.

However, after the BJP came to power in Delhi, I heard that they
were persecuted and driven out.

Arindam Banerjee
Disclaimer: My opinions do not involve my employer.

[Robin Chatterjee]

Hi,
aamio aage ratire lungi porini ,recently start corechi,aamar experiences
somewhat similar...Kintu pore aaram aache .Shokale uthe ektu careful
hote hoy.

--
Robin Chatterjee
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/8312/ Robin's PERL Win32
Page
Chatterj...@tandem.com
mailto:rob...@star-trek.com
mailto:rob...@hotmail.com
mailto:rob...@geocities.com
http://www.angelfire.com/pg9/robin/index.html
http://free.websight.com/Chatterjee/
http://www3.pair.com/jgurney/one/a/robin.html

[Robin Chatterjee]

One of my pishemoshais wears only dhuti at all times.I guess it's more
that the newer genereation never got into the habit except for the guys
at narendrapur.I myself have only worn a dhuti twice .However it really
does make sense in a hot and humid climate.
The only problem is that it takes a little getting used to and that it
is not considered very hip.Still at all religious and/or family
functions it is preferred over the pyjama /panjabi .However that's why
you won't see many people wearing it on the street

[Faiz kabir]

Arindam Banerjee wrote:

> Faiz Kabir <af...@ped-surg.med.tohoku.ac.jp> wrote:
> > The question was: If the significance of Bangladesh was to
represent
> > Bengali nationalism, then why has not West Bengal joined with
> > Bangladesh?

> Perhaps because then the average GNP for the West Bengali would
>reduced by 40% ?

I don't know if there is any independent GNP of WB other than GNP of
India because WB is not an independent country like Bangladesh to have
GNP which stretches to Gross National Product.

> Was it not the dream/aspiration of the likes of Tagore?

> Alas for dreams and aspirations! Cash and jobs are more important
>to most than the dreams of poets.

I doubt Tagore had a genuine feeling for a United Bengal.

> > The significance of Bangladesh was not the representation of Bangali
> > nationalism. It was rather for the representation of the Bangladeshi
> > people.
> Very true. They won independence after a hard struggle.

> The aspirations of Bangladeshi bangalis are quite different
> > from that of the bangalis of West Bengal.

> I do not know about the aspirations of Bangladeshi bangalis or
> WBengali bangalis, but as a Bihari bangali my humble aspiration is
> survival with some dignity.

The aspirations of Bangladeshis are that they be recognised as an
independent nation in the world.They will prosper although at present
nothing significant has been achieved. But I am not frustrated for
that. We are a relatively young nation. We will find our day of course
provided your Indian hegemonistic design doesn't throttle our
policies. We may be economically poor but we are not culturally
subservient like you .

> The Bangalis of West Bengal
> > consider themselves more Indian than Bangali.

> These days this seems true at least in Calcutta. When you talk in
> Bengali to the tradesmen quite a few reply in Hindi. The Bengalis
> in Calcutta say that in 50 years Bengali will be spoken only in homes,
> at this rate.

> So it's obvious that
> > they will not join us in the name of Bangali nationalism

> Bangladeshis do try hard to persuade WBengalis that India is persecuting
> them. I found that out soon after I came to Australia. "How is India
> mistreating you?" was the leading question.

This not true. we hardly believe the WB bangalis. That's why We
identify ourselves as Bangladeshi. We, ofcourse, point out their
pitiable condition when they try to to give us unsolicited advice.

> because that
> > will remove their Indian identity a concept which I don't understand
> > well.

> The Indian indentity gives Indian bengalis jobs. And later on, when
> bangalis become smarter, business opportunities as well. People such
> as I, with no family connections in WBengal, could get a good job
> with the Indian identity, somewhere in India.

Then why do so many Indians run to the Middle East and why do we
read in India Today that many illegal Indians are caught in Italy or
Greece??

> Because Bangladeshis are not Indians, they
> have to come illegally to work in India, and get needlessly
> persecuted. Whereas Biharis can work safely in such rich states as
> Punjab.

You are telling a NIRJALA lie.It has been a well known BJP propaganda

to labell the WB Bangali muslims as Bangladeshi.Because they want to
expell all the muslims of India. Indian Government also is propagating
this lie in order to harass Bangladesh Government.

>
> All this language and culture stuff is for the elite.

May be

Faiz Kabir

> Regards,

> Arindam Banerjee
> Disclaimer: My opinions do not involve my employer.

> > Sincerely,
> > Faiz Kabir

[Arindam Banerjee]

> I don't know if there is any independent GNP of WB other than GNP of
> India because WB is not an independent country like Bangladesh to have
> GNP which stretches to Gross National Product.

My mistake.
I should have written per capita income, which is GNP divided by
population.

> > Bangladeshis do try hard to persuade WBengalis that India is persecuting
> > them. I found that out soon after I came to Australia. "How is India
> > mistreating you?" was the leading question.
>
> This not true. we hardly believe the WB bangalis. That's why We
> identify ourselves as Bangladeshi. We, ofcourse, point out their
> pitiable condition when they try to to give us unsolicited advice.

I was speaking from my experience. From other postings in this
newsgroup I realize I was not the only person so accosted.

I appreciate your considering yourself to be separate. We are
separate, so why pretend not to be so?

I deeply regret posting to your newsgroup. That shall not happen
again. (I was a bit careless, sorry once again.)

[Faiz kabir]

N. Tiwari wrote:

> Faiz kabir (af...@ped-surg.med.tohoku.ac.jp) wrote:
> : Arindam Banerjee wrote:

> : > > The significance of Bangladesh was not the representation of

> : > > Bangali nationalism. It was rather for the representation of
> : > > the Bangladeshi people.
> : > Very true. They won independence after a hard struggle.

> : > The aspirations of Bangladeshi bangalis are quite different
> : > > from that of the bangalis of West Bengal.

> : > I do not know about the aspirations of Bangladeshi bangalis or
> : > WBengali bangalis, but as a Bihari bangali my humble aspiration
> : >is survival with some dignity.

> : The aspirations of Bangladeshis are that they be recognised as an
> : independent nation in the world.They will prosper although at
> : present nothing significant has been achieved. But I am not
> : frustrated for that.
> : We are a relatively young nation. We will find our day of

> : provided your Indian hegemonistic design doesn't throttle our

> : policies. We may be economically poor but we are not culturally
> : subservient like you .

> I take strong exception to this. What is it that is

> so hegemonistic about India. As far as BD is concerned.
> What specific act(s) towards BD make you feel that India
> has behaved in a hegemonisitc way. You can have your
> BD and do your things there. But do not start throwing
> vague accusations, in the hope that if you throw them
> 10 times, it might stick atleast once.

The upstream wolf will always find the downstream sheep the culprit.
By Farakkha you have cheated us first and then later have got bent on
destroying us.When you first started it you asked our permission
telling that it was a test start to see the effectveness of the dam.
And then you continued forgetting your earleir talks. Despite all the
protest you started to withdraw water which is plainly illegal.Your
BSF does shooting practice withour civilian unarmed peasants as target
when they go to their paddy fields to check their crops.According to a
treaty we gave you our Berubari almost instantly. But you lingered it
for 20 years to fulfil your promise causing immense sufferings to our
fellow Bangladeshis living in Angor pota and Dahagram. You don't give
Nepal a 13 KM corridor so that it can use our ports which is
economical and beneficial to both Bangladesh and Nepal but you are
pressurising us to give you transit so that you can increase your
logistic supply to your troubled eastern states. You have forcefully
captured our island South Talpotti. Do you need more examples of your
hegemonistic attitude towards us ?? Of course, you will have a ready
explanation and that's why I said " The upstream wolf will always
find the downstream sheep the culprit."

> Also, what is that you mean by: "not culturallly
> subservient like you". Who is the "you". Is it
> the "W. Bengali Hindus". And if that is what you
> are talking about, what makes them subservient.

On this point read the postings in SCB that describe how you are being
converted to Hindi culture and how your mother tongue is getting
routed by Hindi(provided you are a Bangali) and how you remain silent
about it.

> : > Because Bangladeshis are not Indians, they

> : > have to come illegally to work in India, and get needlessly
> : > persecuted. Whereas Biharis can work safely in such rich states
> : > as Punjab.

> : You are telling a NIRJALA lie.It has been a well known BJP
> :propaganda to labell the WB Bangali muslims as Bangladeshi.Because
> :they want to expell all the muslims of India. Indian Government
> :also is propagating this lie in order to harass Bangladesh
Government.

> Regardless of what you might belive in, a lot of folks
> in WB ARE from BD. Illegal immigrants. And their BD
> identity was even accepted by your ex PM.

You may claim it but it is also true that frequently many Indians are
caught by police in Bangladesh. Why ??so far as I know our ex PM never
excepted any such propaganda. And in your own language you can throw
these vague accusatins 10 times in the hope that at least once it will
stick.But the reality is from your dream.

Faiz Kabir

> Nachiketa Tiwari

[Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay]

On 4 Mar 1997, Rajiv Shukla wrote:

> Dadu (Shyam.Ch...@hut.fi) wrote:
> : >

> : > Bengali. I suppose that because it's an international airport, however,
> : > that this was excusable.
>
> Who are you to excuse? Aren't we being tad high handed? After all it's upto
> him/her if he/she decided to speak in English, isn't it?

OK, "excusable" was a bad word to use. "Justifiable" is more
appropriate. I can see *why* the airport manager *would* speak in
English, I just believe that it was *still* rude for him to do so, when
we kept replying in Bengali. This is the sentiment that I was trying to
express.

As for being high-handed, I think the fault there lies with the airport
manager, not us. The airport manager seemed to use English in the
"high-handed" sense, i.e. "I have enough "experience" (whatever that
means) to use English, therefore I'm right and you are wrong". I've
noticed that people in WB seem to start speaking in English or Hindi when
they feel the need to "invoke a higher authority". It is THIS attitude
that I'm criticising, especially when
(1) Indians are not the best speakers of English (oftentimes
those who speak it barely understand the syntax of the language), and
(2) a more accessible language, with equal (if not more)
authority is readily at hand-- Bengali. I don't see why we forsake this
language at OUR OWN BEHEST, in OUR OWN HOMELAND.

> : Saptarshi and Nalinaksha,
> :
> : Yes, I've also noticed the same. I visited companies, jumped arround
> : hotels and restaurants and had to go the Banks. The moment people
> : understood I live abroad, they started speaking in English, and when
> : they didn't, continued in Hindi. Amusingly even if I declared a
> : reasonably good knowledge of Bengali, and spoke in Bengali, things
> : didn't change. Last in 'Kwality', when I spoke with one waiter in Oriya
> : (my brother-in-law taught me), he took a notice not to speak Hindi.
>
> Guess what? I went to India last year, this didn't happen to me.
> Dibbyi moshai bangla bollam bank e, post office e, restaurants e,
> dokan e, bajar e.

I'm glad that your experiences are different than mine. I don't know,
maybe it's the parts of Calcutta that I hang out in, but it seems, more
and more, that Bengali is being LESS used in Calcutta (and WB) with each
passing year.

I had to speak English at a restaurant. I had to "speak" Hindi (or was
it Bihari? probably some combination) at a mishty dokan. Of course, I
had the opportunity to use Bengali (at my relatives' place, if nothing
else), but the above paragraph, IMO still holds.

>
> Rajiv
>
> --

__________________________________________________________________________
Saptarshi Bandyopadhyay
sapt...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu

[N. Tiwari]

Faiz kabir (af...@ped-surg.med.tohoku.ac.jp) wrote:
: N. Tiwari wrote:
:

1. Calling someone a wolf, and claiming "your"self to be
a sheep ten times, does not mean that the one being called
a wolf is being hegemonistic.

2. Farakka is an issue, which is quite troubling. If Farakka
does not get enuf water, then the port of Calcutaa will become
useless. If Farakka does get enuf water, then BD claims that
it will have water shortage. The fact that India asserts its
position, and BD asserts its own, does not make India a wolf
and BD a sheep. Stop pitying yourself, and abusing others.
Also, it will take more than a Faiz Kabir to say that India
claims to Gangetic waters is illegal. That is even more true, given
fact that you are not an expert in international law, and
neither am I.

3. What should I say about your accusation that BSF uses BD folks
as shooting targets. It only shows that you can use rhetoric,
rather badly.

4. While on one hand, you advocate that India should give Nepal
a transit corridor (which is none of your business, since it
is a matterr between India and Nepal), and you label this
as proof of hegemonism, you also in the same para state that
India wants a corridor from BD (and BD refuses). Should I
take it from that India excersises hegemonism over Nepal
and BD over India, given your acid test of one's hegemonism.

SO, think more, and then post more of your stuff. Let us
see as to how the Bdeshis have given in to Indian hegemonistic
designs. R

: > Also, what is that you mean by: "not culturallly

: > subservient like you". Who is the "you". Is it
: > the "W. Bengali Hindus". And if that is what you
: > are talking about, what makes them subservient.

: On this point read the postings in SCB that describe how you are being
: converted to Hindi culture and how your mother tongue is getting
: routed by Hindi(provided you are a Bangali) and how you remain silent
: about it.

Firstly, SCB need not be the place where proofs of this
kind be found for sure. And secondly, did you notice that
there were other post that said that the threat to Bagla
was from inside and not from outside. If at all there was
any.

: > : > Because Bangladeshis are not Indians, they

: > : > have to come illegally to work in India, and get needlessly
: > : > persecuted. Whereas Biharis can work safely in such rich states
: > : > as Punjab.

: > : You are telling a NIRJALA lie.It has been a well known BJP
: > :propaganda to labell the WB Bangali muslims as Bangladeshi.Because
: > :they want to expell all the muslims of India. Indian Government
: > :also is propagating this lie in order to harass Bangladesh
: Government.
:
: > Regardless of what you might belive in, a lot of folks
: > in WB ARE from BD. Illegal immigrants. And their BD
: > identity was even accepted by your ex PM.

: You may claim it but it is also true that frequently many Indians are
: caught by police in Bangladesh. Why ??so far as I know our ex PM never
: excepted any such propaganda. And in your own language you can throw
: these vague accusatins 10 times in the hope that at least once it will
: stick.But the reality is from your dream.

IF someone is caught in BD as an ilegal immigrant, then it is
the problem of BD. Similarly, if someone illegaliy jumps and
comes in India, then it is the headache of Indian govt. Frankly,
I am not aware of the magnitude of the BDeshi problem concerning
immigrants from India. However, we have a very very large number
of illegal immigrants in India. And they are from BD. They are
in places as far as Jaipur, Madras, and Bangalore. And these
accusations are not vague, since they are well documented, and
no earhly person, Hindu or Muslim, leftist or rigthist, denies
their existence in India. The only arguement is as to what should
be done to them.

--
Nachiketa Tiwari

[Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya]

N. Tiwari (nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu) wrote:

: IF someone is caught in BD as an ilegal immigrant, then it is

: the problem of BD. Similarly, if someone illegaliy jumps and
: comes in India, then it is the headache of Indian govt. Frankly,
: I am not aware of the magnitude of the BDeshi problem concerning
: immigrants from India. However, we have a very very large number
: of illegal immigrants in India. And they are from BD. They are
: in places as far as Jaipur, Madras, and Bangalore. And these

: accusations are not vague, since they are well documented, and

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Where are they documented? The paranoia is generated so that strong arm
tactics can be used (a la Shivsena /Bal Thackrey) against poor people and
a convenient scapegoat found to our problems.

--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya