Suman on Rabindranath, was Re: SUMAN CHATTERJEE-CALCUTTA'S PRIDE???
sayan bhattacharyya
Arnab Gupta <GUP...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>
>Lastly coming to the Rabindranath incident, I hope you will remember
>the interviews that Suman gave initially. On being asked why he
>had quit singing Rabindrasangeet he replied something to the
>effect that he found the lyrics and tune not bold enough to
>express his feelings about `current day realities'. He even tried
>to prove his point by citing examples from Tagore and pointing to
> [...] "bhashagoto durbolota"
It seems that many people who are posting in this thread are posting
things based on their imagination. Facts are apparently taking a back
seat. I am going to post an actual extract from a Suman Chatterjee
interview which is in my possession, in which he talks about his views
on RAbindranath . I hope this will set the confusion at rest.
This interview appeared in the little magzine "Arobdho", edited by
Biswajit Dasgupta, published from Calcutta, in the April 1994 issue.
interviewer : robindrosongeete eto boichitro thaka sottweo, nirdishto
dhNacher gayoki ... ki robindronather ganke aaj eto
"typed" robindrosongeete porinoto kore diyechhe? ... eto
sundor gaanguloke erokombhabe "soft" kore deoa hochhe keno?
Suman : eta bangalir nyakamo. somosya-Ta jeTa, seTa bolle sobai bhishon
choTe jabe. Rabindranath-ke niye kono kotha bola jabe na. Othocho
amar somporke, sumon chattopadhyayer, ma-masi tule khisti kora
jabe -- seta "accepted". abar jei ami ekTa protishthan hoye jabo
amar somporke tNu-shobdoTi kora jabe na. Ei to?
Rabindranath ekjon osadharon composer -- osadharon songeet toiri
korlen ... rabindranath aajke jodi ekta gan poribeshon koren, sei
ganTa Jyoti Thakur piano-te bose sur toiri korchhilen, rag
bhangchhilen, akshay-babu aar rabindranath dujone bose sei bhanga gane
kotha bosachhilen -- ebar sei bhanga sur-Ta je jontre bosano
hochhilo seTa kothay gelo ? SeTa neme esechhe aarsholar moto chola
ekta "harmonium" jontre, sekhane prothome sokole moksho kore nay
pNa-pNa-pNa, pNa-pNa-pNa kore, onekbar gola-Tola jheRe...
Rabindranath boltei aamra kirokom phat-phate, bhad-bhade hoye jai.
Tumi je "bolishTHo" kothata bolchho, "bolishTHo" mane ki sobsomoye
bhenge phelte hobe? Swabhabik thaka. OTa korle nyakamo-Ta hoy na.
------- end of extract ----------
I think it is clear from this interview that
(1) Suman considers Rabindranath a great composer.
(2) However, he thinks that the way "present-day" Rabindrasangeet is
is usually sung -- in an anaemic and effiminate way -- cannot
convey today's reality, because this way of singing is completely
detached from life and also far from Rabindranath's intentions on
how Rabindrasangeet should be sung. He _does_ thing that Rabindrasangeet
as Tagore envisaged it is a powerful art form which can and does
express the reality of today's life.
So, I do not think that there is any contradiction in his bringing out
a Rabindrasangeet album.
-Sayan.
//// Stop the execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal \\\\
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Souvik Das
>
> I think it is clear from this interview that
>
> (1) Suman considers Rabindranath a great composer.
> (2) However, he thinks that the way "present-day" Rabindrasangeet is
> is usually sung -- in an anaemic and effiminate way -- cannot
> convey today's reality, because this way of singing is completely
> detached from life and also far from Rabindranath's intentions on
> how Rabindrasangeet should be sung. He _does_ thing that Rabindrasangeet
> as Tagore envisaged it is a powerful art form which can and does
> express the reality of today's life.
>
> So, I do not think that there is any contradiction in his bringing out
> a Rabindrasangeet album.
>
> -Sayan.
suman je robindronaath-er anuraagi sheta amra shobai jani. kintu mushkil
ta hoy ajker porishthithite robindronath-er gaan kotota prashongik sheta
DEBATABLE. amra jodi ajker ghotona guloke ( orthat narokiyo kichu
ghotona jamon bantala ityadi ityadi - ebong oboshoi ajker bangalir
noitik durbolota) robindronaath-er gaaner madhyome prokash korte jai
tobe sheta bifol hobe. karon uni kintu ei shob ghotona ke shombol kore
gaan lekhen ni. onar gaaner ( ba shongeet bola beshi banchoniyo) mul
lokkhho kintu manusher modhyekaar kichu shashyoto shotyo ke tule dhora.
amader mlanota , kriponota ebong protidiner nongramo theke opore otha.
thik ei rokomi kichu amra kintu pashchatyo shongeet-eo dekhte pai. bach,
beethoven, brahms ke diye ki ajker pashchatyo shomajer kotha bola jaabe.
eder diye kintu ajker kotha bola jabe na. she shob-er jonye kintu ajker
rock, pop ba alternative style bhishon bhaabe joruri.
robindronaath-er shongeet ajker rojkar ghotona ke bhalo bhabe byakto
korte parbe na kintu amader manushik bhabe unnoto korbe. shanti debe.
ar suman je " prothishthane-r birudhhe kotha bola jabe na " boleche
sheta to nishchoi shotyi. je kono shomaje kono rokom poribortonke nichu
chokhe dakha hoy. edeshe ki amra martin luther king (jr.) ke evaluate
korte boste parbo notun kore ? oshombhob. tai ota thakbei. hoyto amader
bangalider modhye ektu beshi, karon amader robindronath chara goti nei.
ar akjon manush nei jini robindronaath-er dhare kache ashte paren.
je kono uttorer opekkhay ( sayan , apra , joydeep ... ? )
souvik
sayan bhattacharyya
Souvik Das <sou...@ra.cs.uga.edu> wrote:
>
>kintu mushkil
>ta hoy ajker porishthithite robindronath-er gaan kotota prashongik sheta
>DEBATABLE. amra jodi ajker ghotona guloke ( orthat narokiyo kichu
>ghotona jamon bantala ityadi ityadi - ebong oboshoi ajker bangalir
>noitik durbolota) robindronaath-er gaaner madhyome prokash korte jai
>tobe sheta bifol hobe. karon uni kintu ei shob ghotona ke shombol kore
>gaan lekhen ni.
poetry Rabindranath was however much more direct and addressed extremely
topical and burning issues of the day : poems like "proshno" , "africa",
and the searing poems about fascism and impending world war written in
the last years of his life ("shotabdir suryo aji rokto-megho majhe/ osto
gelo" etc) come to mind.
He was trying to do something different in song. To him the song was
a purer form, where the same pain and suffering from which poetry grew
also find expression, but it is more sublimated and crystallized :
bahir amar sukti jeno
koTHino aboron,
ontore tar tomar lagi
ekti kanna-dhon |
Srabani Banerjee
>I think it is clear from this interview that
>(1) Suman considers Rabindranath a great composer.
>(2) However, he thinks that the way "present-day" Rabindrasangeet is
> is usually sung -- in an anaemic and effiminate way -- cannot
> convey today's reality, because this way of singing is completely
> detached from life and also far from Rabindranath's intentions on
> how Rabindrasangeet should be sung. He _does_ thing that Rabindrasangeet
> as Tagore envisaged it is a powerful art form which can and does
> express the reality of today's life.
>So, I do not think that there is any contradiction in his bringing out
>a Rabindrasangeet album.
>-Sayan.
(1) The question regarding `bhashagato durbolota' remains. Rabindrasangeet
is not just musical composition, is it? The lyrics are as, if not more
important. In fact there are a lot of people who consider his music to
be just a vehicle for the expression of the lyrics (the problem that
most classical singers have with Rabindrasangeet).
(2) Among the noted Rabindrasangeet singers of today and yesteryears,
there are a large number of women singers. Their renditions are bound to
be `effeminate', any problems with that. Among the male singers who
attained popularity both among critics and the public, can you point out how
many were actually `effeminate'?
Rabindranath was, in my humble opinion, one of the greatest `men'
that Bengal produced. But first and foremost, he was an artist, and a great
one. And being an artist is much more than just being `bolistho' and
depicting the oh-so-favourite `present day reality'. I shudder to think of
a bolistho rendering of a song like, say, `Mori lo mori amai' or `Aaj
shrabaner purnimatey' and the list could go on.
Finally, have you heard Suman's cassette of Rabindrasangeet?
I heard it once and I don't know in what way it was different. In
fact I found his `gayaki' quite run-of-the-mill.
Regards,
Srabani
Sambit Basu
>(1) The question regarding `bhashagato durbolota' remains. Rabindrasangeet
>is not just musical composition, is it? The lyrics are as, if not more
>important.
Rabindranath-er kotha onujayee, gaane kotha ebong shurer
"ordho-nareeshwor" somporko - konatai "more important"
noy.
Rabindrasangeet sommondhe Sumanbabu ja bolen bole amar
mone hoyechhe:
1. Composer hishebe ebong gaan-er "bhaab"-er dik diye
Rabindranath oshadharon.
2. Rabindrasangeet-er kothay guru-chondali dosh bhalo
noy.
>In fact there are a lot of people who consider his music to
>be just a vehicle for the expression of the lyrics (the problem that
>most classical singers have with Rabindrasangeet).
Quote:
"...ami geyo songeet sommondhe iha-i bujhaibar cheshta
koriyachhilam je gaaner kotha-kei gaan-er shurer
dwara porisfuto koriya tola ei srenir songeet-er muukhyo
uddeshyo|...mot-ti je sotyo noy, she kotha aaj shwikaar
koribo."
"gaan-e jokhon kotha thaake tokhon kothar uchit hoy na,
shei sujog-e gaan-ke chhaDaiya jaowa, shekhane she gaan-er
bahonmatro|"
"gaan nijer oishyorje-i boDo, bakyer dasotto she kano korite
jaibe?"
"eijonyo gaan-er kotha-gulite kothar upodrob jotoi kom thaake
toto-i bhalo|"
Endquote.
(From "Gaan sommondhe Probondho":Sangeetchinta - Rabindranath
Thakur:Bishwobharoti, ogrhayon, 1399)
>(2) Among the noted Rabindrasangeet singers of today and yesteryears,
>there are a large number of women singers. Their renditions are bound to
>be `effeminate', any problems with that. Among the male singers who
>attained popularity both among critics and the public, can you point out how
>many were actually `effeminate'?
"Dakkhini" style of rendition. e.g. Rono Guhathakurata.
"effiminate"-er jaygay "pelob" bolle cholbe?
> Rabindranath was, in my humble opinion, one of the greatest `men'
>that Bengal produced. But first and foremost, he was an artist, and a great
>one. And being an artist is much more than just being `bolistho' and
>depicting the oh-so-favourite `present day reality'. I shudder to think of
>a bolistho rendering of a song like, say, `Mori lo mori amai' or `Aaj
>shrabaner purnimatey' and the list could go on.
Sheki, oi gaanduto-ke bolishtho bolben na? Kimba dhorun
"mone je asha loye eshechhi", kimbaaaaaa "shokhi aNadhare
akela ghore mono maane na". Hunkaar diye gaan gaile-i
shudhu bolishtho hoy, e apnake ke bollo?
Aar "present-day reality"? Sayan dudin aage Apratim ei
niye gyan diyechhe, prem-bhalobasha ityadi shob kichhu-i
abohomaan; aar akhon 'present day reality' niye chNyachachchhe.
O niye bhabben na, dudin SCB-te thakun (koddin aachhen
oboshyo janina), shob shoye jaabe...:)
> Finally, have you heard Suman's cassette of Rabindrasangeet?
>I heard it once and I don't know in what way it was different. In
>fact I found his `gayaki' quite run-of-the-mill.
Dhur, or to Rabindrasangeet-er gayoki-i nei! Mandar kichhu
bolo na he!
>Regards,
>Srabani
Regards,
Sambit
ps. Jodi keu follow-up koren, doya kore amake akta copy
pathaben mail-e. Noile khub chintay thakbo.
sayan bhattacharyya
>BANE...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Srabani Banerjee) writes:
>
>>(1) The question regarding `bhashagato durbolota' remains. Rabindrasangeet
>>is not just musical composition, is it? The lyrics are as, if not more
>>important.
Suman recognizes this. From the same interview, here is another extract :
Suman : "tumi robe neerobe" -- (sings) -- dyakho kotha-gulo "swell" korchhe.
jodi tumi ei gantar kothagulo bhabo, nijer mone gun-gun kore gao,--
sekhane kothagulo phulchhe, kromosho "space occupy" korchhe. ei
arombho holo kotha ar soor-er seyane seyane loRai. Interesting
hote shuru korlo composition. "Song writing" shuru holo.
"Bismoye tai jage" -- (sings) -- sompuron hochhe -- sur kotha-Tar
ortho bole dichhe. Ba "bhalobese sokhee nibhrte jotone amar nam-Ti
likho" -- kotha aar soor sompuron korchhe. hoy ni emon instance-o
aachhe -- "sesh nahi je kotha" -- otyonto boring ekTa exercise.
Kintu adhunik bangla gane ei tension-Ta kothay?
interviwer : robindrosongeet ekTu elite-der modhye roye gechhe -- tai sadharon
lokder kachhe pNowchhote pare ni --
Suman : Exactly, exactly! Kintu somosya-Ta holo structural. ... kotha-r
nijoswo obhikorsho aachhe. kothar gurutwo joto baRbe kotha joto
sworaT hote thakbe toto surobiharer swadhinota kombe. Kotha Tene
nebe sur. Rabindranath jar drishTanto. Rabindranather gane dekho --
Rabindranath emni emni kotha likhten na.
-------- end of extract ---------
Srabani Banerjee
>Quote:
> "...ami geyo songeet sommondhe iha-i bujhaibar cheshta
> koriyachhilam je gaaner kotha-kei gaan-er shurer
> dwara porisfuto koriya tola ei srenir songeet-er muukhyo
> uddeshyo|...mot-ti je sotyo noy, she kotha aaj shwikaar
> koribo."
> "gaan-e jokhon kotha thaake tokhon kothar uchit hoy na,
> shei sujog-e gaan-ke chhaDaiya jaowa, shekhane she gaan-er
> bahonmatro|" Quote:
> "gaan nijer oishyorje-i boDo, bakyer dasotto she kano korite
> jaibe?"
> "eijonyo gaan-er kotha-gulite kothar upodrob jotoi kom thaake
> toto-i bhalo|"
> Endquote.
> (From "Gaan sommondhe Probondho":Sangeetchinta - Rabindranath
> Thakur:Bishwobharoti, ogrhayon, 1399)
Er porey ar kichhu bolar thakey na, meney nilam, ekebarey matha petey.
>>(2) Among the noted Rabindrasangeet singers of today and yesteryears,
>>there are a large number of women singers. Their renditions are bound to
>>be `effeminate', any problems with that. Among the male singers who
>>attained popularity both among critics and the public, can you point out how
>>many were actually `effeminate'?
> "Dakkhini" style of rendition. e.g. Rono Guhathakurata.
"Dakkhini'r sobai, Sambitbabu? Subinoy Ray'o?
> "effiminate"-er jaygay "pelob" bolle cholbe?
Dekhun, `effeminate' kathatar ja connotation tatey amar ga jwoley
jai. kintu kathatar oporey apnader bodhhoi bishesh durbolota. Tai bolun,
after all, jor jar muluk tar, tai na?
>> Rabindranath was, in my humble opinion, one of the greatest `men'
>>that Bengal produced. But first and foremost, he was an artist, and a great
>>one. And being an artist is much more than just being `bolistho' and
>>depicting the oh-so-favourite `present day reality'. I shudder to think of
>>a bolistho rendering of a song like, say, `Mori lo mori amai' or `Aaj
>>shrabaner purnimatey' and the list could go on.
> Sheki, oi gaanduto-ke bolishtho bolben na? Kimba dhorun
> "mone je asha loye eshechhi", kimbaaaaaa "shokhi aNadhare
> akela ghore mono maane na". Hunkaar diye gaan gaile-i
> shudhu bolishtho hoy, e apnake ke bollo?
Abar, amar bhul, meney nilam. `Bolistho' kathatar byabaharey bhul hoyechhey.
Ashaley lokey jakhon `bolistho', `bolistho' boley chitkar korey, takhon amar
kirokom huunkar'er kathai monet hoi.
Shubhechhantey,
Srabani
Soumitra Bose
(sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>
>In article <4dh777$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>
>> Finally, have you heard Suman's cassette of Rabindrasangeet?
>
Meghomala";
>but more importantly, I have listened to him sing Rabindrasangeet on
>stage, in concert.
>
>>I heard it once and I don't know in what way it was different. In
>>fact I found his `gayaki' quite run-of-the-mill.
>
necessary
>to see him live, in performance. (Have you seen him perform? If not,
it
>is my sincere request to you that you do so.) I still remember a
concert
>at Academy in April 1994, in which Suman sang -- and made the entire
>audience sing along with him -- "tumi kemon kore gaan koro he guni".
It
>still sends shivers down my spine to think of that experience. Here is
>a man who not only sings his heart out but makes every single member
of
>the audience sing with him, bringing Rabindranath back to where he
>rightfully belongs : right within our hearts, not mounted on a dusty
>picture-frame covered by reverential cobwebs and decaying flowers.
When
>Suman (and we, the audience) finished singing, I felt that
Rabindranath
>was standing with us in that very room. I had never felt myself so
close
>to Rabindranath before.
>
>-Sayan.
>
>
>--
>Sayan Bhattacharyya | Information is in
>Artificial Intelligence Lab | the mind of the beholder.
>Electrical Engineering & Computer Science|
>The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor | - Ray Jackendoff
>
This is how Suman not only differs from the Ghan-Ghanye life-less
institutionalised "shilpi"s but where he can bring down all
institutional culture to the people's pedestals. Thus is Suman
capturing the ZeitGeist of the present generation. Rabindrasangeet is
surely going to have a different and more people's connotation with
Suman around.
sayan bhattacharyya
>
>>(2) Among the noted Rabindrasangeet singers of today and yesteryears,
>>there are a large number of women singers. Their renditions are bound to
>>be `effeminate', any problems with that.
I agree that "effeminate" wasn't a very happy choice of word on my
part. It is also a rather sexist word, unwarrantedly associating
a negative quality with the feminine gender. Instead of saying
"anaemic and effeminate", I should have said "anaemic and effete",
or "anaemic and enervating".
Note that just because a singer is a woman does not mean that her
singing will lack "bolishTHota". Almost any song sung by Suchitra
Mitra will help to dispel this illusion. The "bolishTHota" I was
talking of, comes from __conviction__ , from the singer __feeling__
the music (s)he is singing and relating the music to her own
experience as a human being. I already mentioned Suchitra Mitra.
Another great example of this, drawn from a completely different
genre of music (jazz) and one of my personal all-time favorites,
is Billie Holiday.
-Sayan.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Sayan Bhattacharyya | Information is in
Grad student, Artificial Intelligence Lab| the mind of the beholder.
Srabani Banerjee
>In article <4dh777$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>> Finally, have you heard Suman's cassette of Rabindrasangeet?
>I have listened to his first album of Tagore : "Tumi Sondhyar Meghomala";
>but more importantly, I have listened to him sing Rabindrasangeet on
>stage, in concert.
>>I heard it once and I don't know in what way it was different. In
>>fact I found his `gayaki' quite run-of-the-mill.
>In order to understand why and where Suman is different, it is necessary
>to see him live, in performance. (Have you seen him perform? If not, it
>is my sincere request to you that you do so.) I still remember a concert
>at Academy in April 1994, in which Suman sang -- and made the entire
>audience sing along with him -- "tumi kemon kore gaan koro he guni". It
>still sends shivers down my spine to think of that experience. Here is
>a man who not only sings his heart out but makes every single member of
>the audience sing with him, bringing Rabindranath back to where he
>rightfully belongs : right within our hearts, not mounted on a dusty
>picture-frame covered by reverential cobwebs and decaying flowers. When
>Suman (and we, the audience) finished singing, I felt that Rabindranath
>was standing with us in that very room. I had never felt myself so close
>to Rabindranath before.
>-Sayan.
Since we are talking about personal experiences here, let me point
out, that I would consider it a big loss if I went to hear my favourite
artiste perform, and she/he made me sing along with her. Are you implying
that a person can feel close to Rabindranath only if she/he can sing his
songs? Then what about poor souls like me who couldn't sing to save their
their lives?
Achchha Sayan, Rabindrasangeet to nahoi bujhlam (ja kina ami heDey
gola niyeo cheshta korey dekhi), eta jodi dhoro emon hoto je Bhimsen Joshi
gaichhen ar tar shathey shrotara gola melachchhey. Athoba dharo Amjad Ali
perform korchhen ar amra Academy'tey boshey tar shathey sarod bajachchhi?
Kirokom Bunuel'er cinema monet hochhey na byaparta?
Srabani
sayan bhattacharyya
Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>
> Since we are talking about personal experiences here, let me point
>out, that I would consider it a big loss if I went to hear my favourite
>artiste perform, and she/he made me sing along with her. Are you implying
>that a person can feel close to Rabindranath only if she/he can sing his
>songs? Then what about poor souls like me who couldn't sing to save their
>their lives?
No, I am not saying that one can feel close to Rabindranath __only__ if
(s)he sings out loud. I recognize that there are many ways of getting
close. However, participating in spontaneous, communal singing is one
nice way of getting into the spirit of the song, and one that we bengalis
normally do not do enough of.
If you have been reading s.c.b. for long, you would know that one of my
pet peeves is that we bengalis rarely do things which involve collective
creative expression : for example, we bengalis rarely __dance__. It is my
feeling that when you do things which involve not only private appreciation
but a public and collective expression, such as dancing and collective singing,
it is always a liberating experience as it allows you to look beyond your
own horizon and transcend the limits of self-hood. This is the reason
why, these days, I make it a point to dance whenever I get a chance. But
I digress.
Normally, when we go to concerts, it is a very one-sided experience.
There is no give-and-take. Instead, there is a producer-consumer relationship,
in which the singer siting on the podium sings the song and we the listeners
passively consume it. We might as well be watching tv. Suman was memorable
in that he broke this convention and bridged the gap between the performer
and the listener.
> Achchha Sayan, Rabindrasangeet to nahoi bujhlam (ja kina ami heDey
>gola niyeo cheshta korey dekhi), eta jodi dhoro emon hoto je Bhimsen Joshi
>gaichhen ar tar shathey shrotara gola melachchhey. Athoba dharo Amjad Ali
>perform korchhen ar amra Academy'tey boshey tar shathey sarod bajachchhi?
>Kirokom Bunuel'er cinema monet hochhey na byaparta?
Agreed. I recognize that not all kinds of music, nor all songs, are appropriate
for doing this. An intensely private song, for example, "godhuligogone meghe"
or "aachhe du:kho" would not, perhaps, be suitable. But note that the song
he chose was "tumi kemon kore gan koro he gunee", which was a darned
intelligent choice, because we were all singing, including people who had
never thought they would do such a thing as stand up and sing in public,
and it was as if the song was expressing our wonder and joy at each other
because we were all singing, as if we were all saying to each other "tumi
kemon kore gaan koro he gunee" and paying everyone else (and ourselves) a
compliment :-) It was a magical moment.
Also, he did not __force__ everyone to sing. It just happened spontaneously.
As for hNeRe gola, one everyone around you is singing, the hNeRe-ness of
your gola is drowned out :-) -- that is one of the beauties of collective
singing, or for that matter of doing anything collectively. "doshe mili
kori kaaj, hari jiti nahi laaj".
Do go to a Suman concert, give up your inhibitions, and sing out loud, the
next time you visit Calcutta. you will love it.
-Sayan.
Srabani Banerjee
>:-) Sayan-babu-ke erokom bhabe shobai mile chepe dhorle kintu Apra ar
>ami onar pokhkhe neme porbo.
:-) Ta namun na moshai, apnader ki keu mathar dibyi diechhey na namtey?
>In the fall of 1991, my first year in US, Ihad the good fortune of
>listening to Salil Chowdhury perform at Boston. The show was organised
>by the local bengali organisation and as usual the performance of the
>audio equipment was below par. Some members of Salil-babu's entourage
>felt it necessary to display extreme displeasure. Salil Chaowdhury himself
>was infinitely patient and generous towards the young boys who were
>desparately trying to fix the microphones.
>In the end, despite audio quality the programme was a roaring
>success. After responding to several rounds of `encore' cries Sali
>Chowdhury invited us to sing the last song with him. It was `dhitang
>dhitang bole''. And i too felt that God had descended at the auditorium
>at St.John's methodist church.
>I noticed a lot of people carrying camcorders. Is there anyone onthe net
>who has a recording of that performance?
>Indranil.
Dekhun, kathata shuru hoyechhilo Rabindrasangeet niyey. Sayanbabur
boktobyo bodhhoi ei gochher chhilo je Rabindrasangeet gaoar byaparey Suman
ekta notun dik khuley diechhen ityadi ityadi. Sheta bojhatey giyey uni
bollen ek anusthaner katha jekhaney Suman shrotader diyey gan gaiechhilen.
Ekkhon apni bollen Salil Chowdhuru'r katha, ebong `dhitang dhitang'
er katha. Dekhun amar chhotobelar khub priyo smriti schoolbus'ey dalbNedhey
gala chheDey (ba chitkar korey, jai bolun) gaan gaoa - shey shob gaaner
modhyey ghurey-phirey ashto oi`dhitang dhitang' gochher gaan. Ebong lokey
`encore' boluk ba nai boluk amra kintu ei sessiongulokey monet kortam
`roaring success'
Kintu ebarey bolun to, ei dhoroner gaan ar Rabindrasangeet ki ek
dharaner? Dekhun, ami kintu kharap bhalor proshney jachhi na. Ami shudhu
etukui boltey chaichhi je ei dui dharaner gaaner modhyey onek tafat, jor
korey ek jaigai antey geley, jortai khatano jai, ar bishesh kichhu labh
hoi na. Apnara jebhabey `Dhitang dhitang boley' geyechhilen shebhabey
`amar ongey ongey ke bajay bNashi' gaitey parten? Sayanbabu jodi monet
koren je sammilito kanthey `tumi kemon korey gaan koro' gaoata khub
effective, taholeo kintu sheta ekta isolated instance hoyei thakey,
samogrik bhabey Rabindrasangeet'er byaparey bodhhoi ei kathata khatena.
Srabani
Indranil DasGupta
: >Sayan Bhattacharya writes
[..]
: >was standing with us in that very room. I had never felt myself so close
: >to Rabindranath before.
: >-Sayan.
: Since we are talking about personal experiences here, let me point
: out, that I would consider it a big loss if I went to hear my favourite
: artiste perform, and she/he made me sing along with her. Are you implying
: that a person can feel close to Rabindranath only if she/he can sing his
: songs? Then what about poor souls like me who couldn't sing to save their
: their lives?
: Achchha Sayan, Rabindrasangeet to nahoi bujhlam (ja kina ami heDey
: gola niyeo cheshta korey dekhi), eta jodi dhoro emon hoto je Bhimsen Joshi
: gaichhen ar tar shathey shrotara gola melachchhey. Athoba dharo Amjad Ali
: perform korchhen ar amra Academy'tey boshey tar shathey sarod bajachchhi?
: Kirokom Bunuel'er cinema monet hochhey na byaparta?
: Srabani
:-) Sayan-babu-ke erokom bhabe shobai mile chepe dhorle kintu Apra ar
ami onar pokhkhe neme porbo.
In the fall of 1991, my first year in US, Ihad the good fortune of
Sharmila Mukherjee
>No, I am not saying that one can feel close to Rabindranath __only__ if
>(s)he sings out loud.................................and one that we bengalis
>normally do not do enough of.................pet peeves is that we bengalis rarely do things which involve collective
>creative expression : for example, we bengalis rarely __dance__.
Sayanbabu, let me congratulate you on your opinions here and tell you that I
agree with you one hundred percent on this. I have also had this mental grudge
against our Bengali upbringing which has brought so many inhibitions with it. I
have participated in collective singing and have felt how electrifying it could
be if it is spontaneous. As for dancing, it is always frowned upon in
middle-class bengali families. On the other hand even in middle-class Gujrati
households, you will find women of the family which includes the daughter
-in-law, the mother-in-law and the daughters of the family participating
whole-heartedly in Garbaa in front of all the males without any inhibitions or
without being self-conscious. It is an accepted norm and comes very naturally.
- Sharmila Mukherjee
Sambit Basu
>Suman
>Chattopadhyay jodi RT-r gaaner modhye theke kichhu `gono-shongeet' ber
>kore phelte paren tahole shejonyo kichhu credit onake ditei hoy.
"gono-shongeet" kake bole?
>Indranil.
Regards,
Sambit
Indranil DasGupta
: Indranil Dasgupta writes
: >Indranil.
[Apnar ichchhe hole amake nirbhoye `babu' bolte paren
(e-niye oi keshorheen shingh-er kothata ei to shedin likhlaam!).]
: Dekhun, kathata shuru hoyechhilo Rabindrasangeet niyey. Sayanbabur
: boktobyo bodhhoi ei gochher chhilo je Rabindrasangeet gaoar byaparey Suman
: ekta notun dik khuley diechhen ityadi ityadi. Sheta bojhatey giyey uni
: bollen ek anusthaner katha jekhaney Suman shrotader diyey gan gaiechhilen.
: Ekkhon apni bollen Salil Chowdhuru'r katha, ebong `dhitang dhitang'
: er katha. Dekhun amar chhotobelar khub priyo smriti schoolbus'ey dalbNedhey
: gala chheDey (ba chitkar korey, jai bolun) gaan gaoa - shey shob gaaner
: modhyey ghurey-phirey ashto oi`dhitang dhitang' gochher gaan. Ebong lokey
: `encore' boluk ba nai boluk amra kintu ei sessiongulokey monet kortam
: `roaring success'
: Kintu ebarey bolun to, ei dhoroner gaan ar Rabindrasangeet ki ek
: dharaner? Dekhun, ami kintu kharap bhalor proshney jachhi na. Ami shudhu
: etukui boltey chaichhi je ei dui dharaner gaaner modhyey onek tafat, jor
: korey ek jaigai antey geley, jortai khatano jai, ar bishesh kichhu labh
: hoi na. Apnara jebhabey `Dhitang dhitang boley' geyechhilen shebhabey
: `amar ongey ongey ke bajay bNashi' gaitey parten? Sayanbabu jodi monet
: koren je sammilito kanthey `tumi kemon korey gaan koro' gaoata khub
: effective, taholeo kintu sheta ekta isolated instance hoyei thakey,
: samogrik bhabey Rabindrasangeet'er byaparey bodhhoi ei kathata khatena.
: Srabani
Apni ja bolechhen akdom thik. RT-r shob gaaner mejaj ak noy. Tobe
Sayan-babu ja likhechhilen shetao khub bhul hoyto noy. Suman
Chattopadhyay jodi RT-r gaaner modhye theke kichhu `gono-shongeet' ber
kore phelte paren tahole shejonyo kichhu credit onake ditei hoy.
Rabindrasangeet geye addin jNara naam korechhen tNara pray shokolei ei
dikta eriye gachhen.
Tobe `gono-shongeet'-er buke rajnitir beesh lukiye rakha jay. Shejonyo
oshab jNara khan tNader pocket-e ektu nun thakle bhalo.
Indranil.
Sudeshna Das
: >ami onar pokhkhe neme porbo.
: :-) Ta namun na moshai, apnader ki keu mathar dibyi diechhey na namtey?
Srabanidebi,
Bhai boleo to ekta jinish achhe, tai na? Bayesh hochchhe, Sayan'r
to ar apni kichhu baki rakhlen na, amar dur theke dekhei hridkampo
holo apni Sumanbhakto hole amader ki dasha hoto! Ar tachhaRa, Sayan
bondhu manush kintu apni ekhon projonto ja bolechhen shobi besh
thikthak (arthat amar mater shange mele ar ki :-)).
Ekta proshno chhilo, unrelated. Dekhlam apni likhechhen:
: `encore' boluk ba nai boluk amra kintu ei sessiongulokey monet kortam
<...>
: `amar ongey ongey ke bajay bNashi' gaitey parten? Sayanbabu jodi monet
: koren
Ei mone thek monet-ti ki Kamalkumariyo?
: Srabani
Apratim.
Srabani Banerjee
>Ekta proshno chhilo, unrelated. Dekhlam apni likhechhen:
>: `encore' boluk ba nai boluk amra kintu ei sessiongulokey monet kortam
><...>
>: `amar ongey ongey ke bajay bNashi' gaitey parten? Sayanbabu jodi monet
>: koren
> Ei mone thek monet-ti ki Kamalkumariyo?
>: Srabani
> Apratim.
Apratimbabu
Ei ingriji haraphey Bangla likhtey besh ashubidhey hoi ar tar
opor jodi oi `monet' gochher katha hoi. Dekhun, mone likhley to onyo
rakam shuntey lagey ar ami shadharanato jerokom kathar pechhoney y
boshiyey kaaj chalai, moner belai to ta khatey na. Ta amar ek porichito
bhadrolok dekhlam `monet', `manet' lekhen. Tini hoito French impressionist'der
bhakto hoben, ami kintu ei usage dekhey besh impressed. Lekhar agey bodhhoi
credit'ta deoa uchit chhilo, bhul hoyey gyachhey.
Bujhtei parchhen Kamalkumariyo noi. Kintu ekhaney amar akta
proshno achhey. Apni ki South Point'ey poDten?
Srabani
sayan bhattacharyya
Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>Sayan and Sharmila-debi -- you must be living in a different
>Bengal/Calcutta than the one I have been brought up in.
>
>My impression of this absolutely different.
>I have
>several Bengali (women) friends, who are accomplished Kathak, Odissi,
>and Bharat Natyam dancers.
I was speaking of social dancing as a spontaneous community event, which does
not happen in Bengali culture in the way it happens, say, in Santhal culture.
Also, note that none of the dance forms you mentioned above originate from
Bengal. Isn't that revealing? Chhow (from Purulia) is an authentic Bengali
dance, but how many Bengali friends do you have who are accomplished Chhow
dancers, or whose parents encouraged them to take up Chhow?
-Sayan.
sayan bhattacharyya
>
> Srabanidebi,
>
> Ekta proshno chhilo, unrelated. Dekhlam apni likhechhen:
>
>: `encore' boluk ba nai boluk amra kintu ei sessiongulokey monet kortam
>: koren
>
> Ei mone thek monet-ti ki Kamalkumariyo?
>
** insider joke alert **
Sotyi kotha bolte ki, Srabanir ei kothaTar manet ami THik bujhte parchhi na :-)
Kamalkumariyo-i boTe 8-)
-Sayan.
Apratim Sarkar
> Apratimbabu
> Ei ingriji haraphey Bangla likhtey besh ashubidhey hoi ar tar
>opor jodi oi `monet' gochher katha hoi. Dekhun, mone likhley to onyo
>rakam shuntey lagey ar ami shadharanato jerokom kathar pechhoney y
>boshiyey kaaj chalai, moner belai to ta khatey na. Ta amar ek porichito
>bhadrolok dekhlam `monet', `manet' lekhen. Tini hoito French impressionist'der
>bhakto hoben, ami kintu ei usage dekhey besh impressed.
Byabohar-ti besg lagshoi, mantei hochchhe.
>Lekhar agey bodhhoi
>credit'ta deoa uchit chhilo, bhul hoyey gyachhey.
Ami abashyo she byapar'e kichhu bolini. Amar shudhu ektu koutuhal
hochchhilo idea-ti elo mathai ki kore. Jodi sambhab hoi, tabe apnar
porichito bhadrolok-ti-ke ektu jigesh korte paren tini kotha theke
idea-ti pelen? Dekhun e-i Bangla haraf'e Engreji lekha to shabar-i
notun - apni koddin SCB'te achhen jani na kintu initially e niye
kato alochana holo, kono standard'e pNouchhono gelo na - aste aste
kintu ek dharan'r ekta standard hoye ashchhe. (Sambit khub strictly
follow kare.) Almost kibhabe ekti notun script shuruhoi, tar
grammar defined hoi, khub interesting amar kachhe. Tai ar ki.
> Bujhtei parchhen Kamalkumariyo noi. Kintu ekhaney amar akta
>proshno achhey. Apni ki South Point'ey poDten?
Dhorechhen thik-i. Tabe Kamalbabu'r kachhe chhobi aNaka shekha'r
shoubhagya hoini.
> Srabani
Apratim.
--
No doubt the world is entirely an Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are
imaginary world, but it is only once are my own and shouldn't be construed in
removed from the true world. any way to represent that of my employer.
- Isaac Bashevis Singer.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4doanp$s...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, Sharmila Mukherjee <sm> writes:
SM> As for dancing, it is always frowned upon in
SM> middle-class bengali families. On the other hand even in middle-class Gujrati
SM> households, you will find women of the family which includes the daughter
SM> -in-law, the mother-in-law and the daughters of the family participating
SM> whole-heartedly in Garbaa in front of all the males without any inhibitions or
SM> without being self-conscious. It is an accepted norm and comes very naturally.
Sayan and Sharmila-debi -- you must be living in a different
Bengal/Calcutta than the one I have been brought up in.
My impression of this absolutely different. Bengali families strongly
encourage different forms of art - dance, singing, drama, etc. I have
several Bengali (women) friends, who are accomplished Kathak, Odissi,
and Bharat Natyam dancers. I was involved in a dramatics club for
several years in Calcutta in which women used to actively participate.
It is true, however, male dancing is frowned upon in Bengal.
-Shubu
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shubu Mukherjee Univeristy of Wisconsin-Madison, Computer Sciences
sh...@cs.wisc.edu http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~shubu
sayan bhattacharyya
Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> jemon Sayan pray'i jey charter'er katha bolen
"Pray-i" boli na. I only invoke the charter when I am pressed into a
corner and running out of arguments :-)
Fortunately, that happens very rarely :-)
-Sayan.
--
Sayan Bhattacharyya | Information is in
Srabani Banerjee
> Ami abashyo she byapar'e kichhu bolini. Amar shudhu ektu koutuhal
> hochchhilo idea-ti elo mathai ki kore. Jodi sambhab hoi, tabe apnar
> porichito bhadrolok-ti-ke ektu jigesh korte paren tini kotha theke
> idea-ti pelen? Dekhun e-i Bangla haraf'e Engreji lekha to shabar-i
> notun - apni koddin SCB'te achhen jani na kintu initially e niye
> kato alochana holo, kono standard'e pNouchhono gelo na - aste aste
> kintu ek dharan'r ekta standard hoye ashchhe. (Sambit khub strictly
> follow kare.) Almost kibhabe ekti notun script shuruhoi, tar
> grammar defined hoi, khub interesting amar kachhe. Tai ar ki.
Apratimbabu
Apnar proshno e-mail marfot janiyey diechhi, uttor peley janabo
apnakey.
SCB'tey ami ekebarey notun, tai apnader alochona'r byaparey kichhui
janina (onek kichhui janina aboshyo, jemon Sayan pray'i jey charter'er
katha bolen, sheta ki bostu).
Ei proshongey monet poRlo, Jibananda'key niyey lekha Clinton B Ceely'r
(naki Seely? , ki jani, monet nei) boitatey `cetana', `paricay', `cil'
gochher katha peyey prathamey besh chomkechhilam, porey monet holo
je k akhkharta jakhan achhei takhon `ch'er poriborttey shudhu `c'
likhley to byaparta onek shahoj hoyey jai. Apnar ki monet hoi?
Shubecchashaho
Srabani
sayan bhattacharyya
>
I know what you meant, but the above statement is technically wrong,
as the district called Santhal Pargana was historically a part of
Bihar. I get the point you are conveying, though. But Santhals are
not Bengalis. Santhals have their own rich language (Santhali) and
rich culture, which is quite different from Bengali culture (although
the two cultures have of course influenced each other). I wish Bengali
culture were more influenced by Santhal culture than it has been.
-Sayan.
sayan bhattacharyya
>SB> Bengal. Isn't that revealing?
>
>What does it reveal? Does a culture need to excel in everything?
That was not what I meant.
>SB> Chhow (from Purulia) is an authentic Bengali
>SB> dance, but how many Bengali friends do you have who are accomplished Chhow
>SB> dancers, or whose parents encouraged them to take up Chhow?
>
>First, show me a dance school that or dance teacher who teaches chhow.
That was precisely my point. If Bengalis (urban middle class bengalis)
did look upon dance as a spontaneous community event, they would not
have been apathetic to an indigenous Bengali dance form like Chhow, and
people would have learnt it.
-Sayan.
Sudeshna Das
: In article <4e0mai$2...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
: Srabani Banerjee <BANE...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
: > jemon Sayan pray'i jey charter'er katha bolen
: "Pray-i" boli na. I only invoke the charter when I am pressed into a
: corner and running out of arguments :-)
: Fortunately, that happens very rarely :-)
Ahlade dhinikeshto amar! Ato khilli mero na. :-)
: -Sayan.
Apratim.
Amitabha Lahiri
Didn't seem to go out the first time. My apologies if it shows up twice.
sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>I was speaking of social dancing as a spontaneous community event, which does
>not happen in Bengali culture in the way it happens, say, in Santhal culture.
One thing I have seen happening in Bengali culture that I have vainly
sought to discover in the West is singing as a spontaneous event. As a
schoolboy I and many other friends of mine would sing without reason
outside class times, walking along rail tracks behind the school, on the
roof, wherever and whenever we felt like it. The practice continued as I
went on to college, taking the budge-budge sealdah train every morning, and
singing with my friends all the way there and back. Our fellow passengers
liked it too. We sang in the classroom, we sang in the canteen ... go into
any reasonably sized college and you will find someone singing, just for
the sheer joy of it. Rabindrasangeet, Nazrulgeeti, Adhunik, even Hindi
songs, whatever strikes their fancy. It does not happen in the West.
(I realise that there are enough people reading this newsgroup who will
jump up and point out the raggae band playing around the corner from their
house. I am not talking about that. I am talking about people walking
along or chatting with their friends, and spontaneously breaking into song.)
I have never heard singing in the corridors in the West, nor at student
gatherings. My suspicion is that music is seen in the West too much as a
performing art, done as much for other people's enjoyment as one's own.
Which would explain why people are too shy to break into spontaneous bouts
of singing. (And I have known some very good amateur singers who also fall
into this class.) Perhaps it's similar with Bengalis and dancing?
Amitabha
PS: As some here know, I am far too busy at the moment -- trying to figure
out the future of my career -- for getting into any discussion on the net.
So I doubt if I will be able to respond to anything anybody says on this
thread. And as for Suman, `lebu beshi kachlale teto hoy'| :-(
--
Amitabha Lahiri MAPS University of Sussex A.La...@central.susx.ac.uk
No one else is responsible for what I say and vice versa.
Today it's the Bengalis, tomorrow it will be you.
sayan bhattacharyya
Amitabha Lahiri <mp...@central.susx.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> We sang in the classroom, we sang in the canteen ... go into
> any reasonably sized college and you will find someone singing, just for
> the sheer joy of it. Rabindrasangeet, Nazrulgeeti, Adhunik, even Hindi
> songs, whatever strikes their fancy. It does not happen in the West.
Actually, it does happen. In the co-operative where I live (150 people,
mostly graduate students from all conceivable disciplines), on summer
evenings people regularly gather on the porch and sing until late into
the night, while those who can play the guitar, accompany.
-Sayan.
Sugato Bhattacharyya
(Amitabha Lahiri) wrote:
> One thing I have seen happening in Bengali culture that I have vainly
> sought to discover in the West is singing as a spontaneous event. As a
> schoolboy I and many other friends of mine would sing without reason
> outside class times, walking along rail tracks behind the school, on the
> roof, wherever and whenever we felt like it. The practice continued as I
> went on to college, taking the budge-budge sealdah train every morning, and
> singing with my friends all the way there and back. Our fellow passengers
> liked it too. We sang in the classroom, we sang in the canteen ... go into
> any reasonably sized college and you will find someone singing, just for
> the sheer joy of it. Rabindrasangeet, Nazrulgeeti, Adhunik, even Hindi
> songs, whatever strikes their fancy. It does not happen in the West.
In your world view, how do you account for the numerous (reported)
instances of those in the West who spontaneously break into song while
taking a shower? Could it be that as more and more Bengali households
start having showers and people abandon the habit of taking baths with
mugs and buckets, there will be more singing in showers and less on
railway tracks?
Another thing to keep in mind would be the type of song. Young people in
the West do enjoy music accompanied by complicated instrumental
arrangements. Maybe, without the accompaniment, its hard to really sing
and enjoy. Hence the rise of karaoke places as well as portable karaoke
personal devices.
All this obviously brings us to the technological issue. Do Bengalis sing
spontaneously because they like to sing or because they like music? If the
latter, then they may very well prefer listening to singing when there is
a choice. Obviously, the availability of Walkmans, then, implies a lot
about spontaneous singing, or at least, the observance of such singing in
public places. I would hypothsize that the spread of Walkmans in Bengal
will/must have reduce(d) the occurance of "gala chere gaan gaoa" in
Bengal. It would be nice to see what others think of this substitution
hypothesis.
Finally, returning to the earlier theme, I suspect that in the 60s, when
folk music and related genres were in their heyday and Walkmans were not
about, there may very well have been much more 'spontaneous' singing
observable in the West.
> My suspicion is that music is seen in the West too much as a
> performing art, done as much for other people's enjoyment as one's own.
> Which would explain why people are too shy to break into spontaneous bouts
> of singing. (And I have known some very good amateur singers who also fall
> into this class.) Perhaps it's similar with Bengalis and dancing?
How do these alternate hypotheses which do not go as far in the direction
of "east in east and west is west and ne'er the twain shall meet" as your
hypothesis does, gel with the notion of Bengalis not dancing etc? Methinks
if your explanation were true, one would see a lot more of dancing as
popular performance art in Bengal than what one sees today. Besides, what
would be an explanation of the great amounts of spontaneous dancing
observed during "bhashan" at Durga Puja? Could it be that the well known
repressed nature of the bhadralok Bengali character/society/psyche has
something to do with the observations that you have made? Just wondering.
>
> Amitabha
>
> PS: As some here know, I am far too busy at the moment -- trying to figure
> out the future of my career -- for getting into any discussion on the net.
Good luck with your career issues. Even if you don't get embroiled in the
discussions on the net, you may want to take up (spontaneous?) dancing to
give vent to some of the tensions that you must be facing :) (Just a
relevant thought - don't mean to snide or sarcastic - hope it makes you
smile at least)
--
Sugato Bhattacharyya
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4e3ah3$n...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, bhat...@heron.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
SB> In article <SHUBU.96J...@providence.cs.wisc.edu>, Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
SB> Chhow (from Purulia) is an authentic Bengali
SB> dance, but how many Bengali friends do you have who are accomplished Chhow
SB> dancers, or whose parents encouraged them to take up Chhow?
>> First, show me a dance school that or dance teacher who teaches chhow.
SB> That was precisely my point. If Bengalis (urban middle class bengalis)
SB> did look upon dance as a spontaneous community event, they would not
SB> have been apathetic to an indigenous Bengali dance form like Chhow, and
SB> people would have learnt it.
This is __just__ one hypothesis. Its also possible that chhow isn't
strong enough to be adopted by the Bengali masses.
Maybe you are not aware of this. Several Bengali amateur groups
(including our dramatics club in Calcutta and the one in IIT Kanpur)
stage group folk dances from Bengal. I have also often seen the lathi
(garba?) dance staged by Bengalis. Major fraction of the dances from
Santiniketan (Tagorean) are group dances. And of course there are
dance dramas like Chandalika or Shyama.
You gave one anecdotal evidence, I gave four. Now can you still claim
unilaterally that Bengalis are apathetic to group dances? Group dance
as an __art__ (as opposed to social dance) has long been recognized by
Bengalis.
I think your crib is __not__ whether we have group dance forms. Your
crib is that we don't have a __social__ dance form such as ballroom
dancing (e.g. waltz, tango, cha cha, polka, fox trot, ...). Here I
absolutely agree with you. But I wouldn't try dancing to a waltz
wearing a dhoti!! :-)
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4e3an3$n...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, bhat...@heron.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
SB> In article <SHUBU.96J...@providence.cs.wisc.edu>, Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>> BTW, Santhal Pargana is a part of Bengal.
SB> But Santhals are
SB> not Bengalis. Santhals have their own rich language (Santhali) and
SB> rich culture, which is quite different from Bengali culture
Eibar kan mol-e debo Sayan.
Extrapolating your argument Bengalis are not Indians!! Right? :-)
Sudeshna Das
: Tao to BhishMadeb-er bangla gaan-gulo niye tomar
: mot-ta dite bolini! Debe naki?
:
: >mandar.
: Regards,
: Sambit
Hoye jak!! Seriously, ami bishesh interested. Bala'r khamota nei,
shona'r ichchhe.
Apratim.
Soumitra Bose
(Shubu Mukherjee) writes:
>
>
>>>>>> In article <4e3an3$n...@news.eecs.umich.edu>,
bhat...@heron.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>
>SB> In article <SHUBU.96J...@providence.cs.wisc.edu>, Shubu
Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>>> BTW, Santhal Pargana is a part of Bengal.
>
>SB> But Santhals are
>SB> not Bengalis. Santhals have their own rich language (Santhali) and
>SB> rich culture, which is quite different from Bengali culture
>
>Eibar kan mol-e debo Sayan.
>
>Extrapolating your argument Bengalis are not Indians!! Right? :-)
>
>-Shubu
>
>--
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Sciences
>sh...@cs.wisc.edu http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~shubu
>
thaken karon tader dabimoto jharkhond dewo hoi ni, Wbengal ke
tri-lingual kora hoiechye karon rajnoitik, tai hole to Darjeeling er
nepalidero bangali bolte hoi, eto bejai birombona .Amra kichutei
aboriginal bhasha o songsritike somomarjada debo na ar tarpore jor kore
bolbo tara shobai amader lok , Hindura bohudin bole esheche je Sikherao
ekrokom hindu , boudhorao naki tai , ari eto jor kore dole tana .
Oitihashik o utpottigotobhabe kothai kobe santali bhasha banglar sathe
jukto . Ekta pre-boidik juger bhasha ar ekta magadhi o abohi prakrit
theke udhbuto . kisher sathe ki panta bhate ghee...
Rajan P. Parrikar
> One thing I have seen happening in Bengali culture that I have vainly
> sought to discover in the West is singing as a spontaneous event. As a
> schoolboy I and many other friends of mine would sing without reason
A couple of points you might want to consider which I haven't seen
mentioned in this thread (these are solely based on musical considerations
and not on social conditioning).
1) The 'melodic` nature of Indian music. You divest a song of its
accompaniment and it still holds its own. Much less so in the West
where background music, 'seconds`, chorus etc are required to create a
comparable effect. Since the melodic line overwhelmingly dominates
Indian music it is easy to play merry with it and feel good.
2) Lyrics play a far greater role in popular Indian music. Most of
us know well at least the mukhDA of our favourite numbers. Not many
here know what lies beyond the first line (given that the English
bhasha is quite pathetic (IMO) as far a lyrical beauty goes they are
quite justified). Knowledge of the lyrics provides a powerful impetus
for breaking into song, as we all know. Further, many of our compositions
are carefully tuned such that there is a delicious interplay of word
and swara.
r
ps: Btw, it is common knowledge (to everyone except the bongs) that
spontaneous breaking into song is not just a bong thingie but a
pan-Indian phenomenon.
sayan bhattacharyya
Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>SB> But Santhals are
>SB> not Bengalis. Santhals have their own rich language (Santhali) and
>SB> rich culture, which is quite different from Bengali culture
>
>Eibar kan mol-e debo Sayan.
>
>Extrapolating your argument Bengalis are not Indians!! Right? :-)
Bengalis (West bengalis, that is) are a subset of Indians. But Santhals
are not a subset of Bengalis. So I do not see how the above statement
can be "extrapolated from my arguments".
Besides, such an extrapolation is flawed for another reason. "Indian"
is a political identity. "Bengali" or "Santhal" is a linguistic and
ethnic identity. So "Santhals are not Bengalis" cannot be extrapolated
to "Bengalis are not Indians" as the identities are not isomorphic.
-Sayan.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4eb75a$9...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, bhat...@heron.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
SB> In article <SHUBU.96J...@providence.cs.wisc.edu>, Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
SB> But Santhals are
SB> not Bengalis. Santhals have their own rich language (Santhali) and
SB> rich culture, which is quite different from Bengali culture
>>
>> Eibar kan mol-e debo Sayan.
>>
>> Extrapolating your argument Bengalis are not Indians!! Right? :-)
SB> Bengalis (West bengalis, that is) are a subset of Indians. But Santhals
SB> are not a subset of Bengalis. So I do not see how the above statement
SB> can be "extrapolated from my arguments".
Weak. People living in India are called Indians. People living in
West Bengal are called Bengalis.
Your arguments are contradictory. First, you claim chhow is an
__authentic__ Bengali dance. Then you turn around and claim Santhals
are not Bengalis! So Santhals are non-Bengalis who practise an
authentic Bengali dance that originated among the Santhals themselves.
Sounds like postmodernist argument to me!! :-)
-Shubu
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
sayan bhattacharyya
Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>Your arguments are contradictory. First, you claim chhow is an
>__authentic__ Bengali dance. Then you turn around and claim Santhals
>are not Bengalis! So Santhals are non-Bengalis who practise an
>authentic Bengali dance that originated among the Santhals themselves.
Fyi, chhow is not a Santhal dance.
Soumitra Bose
>SB> In article <SHUBU.96J...@providence.cs.wisc.edu>, Shubu
Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>SB> But Santhals are
>SB> not Bengalis. Santhals have their own rich language (Santhali) and
>SB> rich culture, which is quite different from Bengali culture
>>>
>>> Eibar kan mol-e debo Sayan.
>>>
>SB> Bengalis (West bengalis, that is) are a subset of Indians. But
Santhals
>SB> are not a subset of Bengalis. So I do not see how the above
statement
>SB> can be "extrapolated from my arguments".
>
>Weak. People living in India are called Indians. People living in
>West Bengal are called Bengalis.
>
Nepalis of Gorkhaland are Bengalees or what? Non-bengalees residing in
Bengal are bengalees or what, do they at least consider themselves to
be bengalees? Do you understand what a linguistic-social category is
and what is a political category?
>Your arguments are contradictory. First, you claim chhow is an
>__authentic__ Bengali dance. Then you turn around and claim Santhals
>are not Bengalis! So Santhals are non-Bengalis who practise an
>authentic Bengali dance that originated among the Santhals themselves.
>
Chow dance is a bengali dance it is also performed by Mundas not
Santhals .Mundas live in Purulia and speak in Mundari and their
language is written in NAgri Script. Santhalees are mostly living in
Birbhum,Bankura and Medinipur and speak in Santhali and writes in
Olchiki.
>Sounds like postmodernist argument to me!! :-)
>
Do you know what postomodernism is ? Can you analyse how Sayan's note
is akin to Post-modernistic.Can you cite any reference for your comment
or at least any book you have read which would corroborate that Sayan's
note is post modernistic?
Indranil DasGupta
: dgu...@buphy.bu.edu (Indranil DasGupta) writes:
: >Suman
: >Chattopadhyay jodi RT-r gaaner modhye theke kichhu `gono-shongeet' ber
: >kore phelte paren tahole shejonyo kichhu credit onake ditei hoy.
: "gono-shongeet" kake bole?
Addin pore Sambit-er ektaa post dekhte pelaam. Heading-ta bhebe chintei
paltechhi.
Amar mote,
dhorshon ---> gono dhorshon : shongeet ----> gono shongeet.
Ba,
dholai ---> gono dholai : shongeet ---> gono shongeet.
Tumi eka kauke marle. Dholai. Amra shobai mile moja kore kauke
marlaam. Gono-dholai. Jol kore dilaam to?
Indranil.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4ecanf$k...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
SB> In article <SHUBU.96J...@providence.cs.wisc.edu>, Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>> Your arguments are contradictory. First, you claim chhow is an
>> __authentic__ Bengali dance. Then you turn around and claim Santhals
>> are not Bengalis! So Santhals are non-Bengalis who practise an
>> authentic Bengali dance that originated among the Santhals themselves.
SB> Fyi, chhow is not a Santhal dance.
Assuming you are correct, I strongly suspect it is a tribal dance
form. Correct me if I am wrong. That is, tell me more about the
origins of chhow, please. If not, the same arguments apply.
Soumitra Bose
bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>
>SB> In article <SHUBU.96J...@providence.cs.wisc.edu>, Shubu
Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>>> Your arguments are contradictory. First, you claim chhow is an
>>> __authentic__ Bengali dance. Then you turn around and claim
Santhals
>>> are not Bengalis! So Santhals are non-Bengalis who practise an
>>> authentic Bengali dance that originated among the Santhals
themselves.
>
>SB> Fyi, chhow is not a Santhal dance.
>
>Assuming you are correct, I strongly suspect it is a tribal dance
>form. Correct me if I am wrong. That is, tell me more about the
>origins of chhow, please. If not, the same arguments apply.
>
>-Shubu
>--
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Sciences
>sh...@cs.wisc.edu http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~shubu
>
Chow is not a Santhal dance, nor a Mundari dance as such . It is
performed by a mixed group of Bengali and Santhalis only in Purulia .We
do not see in any part of Bihar even where some Santhalees are there.
We also do not see this dance in MEdinipur the central spot of
Santhalis.The masters of Chow who have got accolades from the Indian
Govt are not Santhals at all. Now where did it originate? Well all
bengalee folk dances or song patterns originated from the aboriginal
people in some form or the other.
Amitabha Lahiri
Sugato Bhattacharyya wrote:
>In your world view, how do you account for the numerous (reported)
>instances of those in the West who spontaneously break into song while
>taking a shower?
Come now, I was talking about spontaneous _social_ singing.
Taking a shower -- alone -- hardly counts as a social activity.
(And I can think of better things to do than singing if I were
showering with a friend. :-))
I won't respond point for point to the rest, but ...
>How do these alternate hypotheses which do not go as far in the direction
>of "east in east and west is west and ne'er the twain shall meet" as your
>hypothesis does,
You do me injustice. My point was to suggest a similarity rather than the
difference -- what's dancing for `Westerners' is singing for Bengalis.
(People who require long explanations please note that this `is' in the
above sentence is not an absolute.)
The line you have put in quotes is by Kipling (afaik), for whose
orientalist views I have no respect whatsoever.
As for dhunuchi nrityo and dancing at bhashan and such, your question
should be directed at Sayan. He chose to ignore them. I assumed certain
reasons on his part, and I chose to ignore them as well. It is of course
possible that I made incorrect assumptions. I'll wait for his explanations.
Amitabha
sayan bhattacharyya
>
>>In your world view, how do you account for the numerous (reported)
>>instances of those in the West who spontaneously break into song while
>>taking a shower?
Incidentally, last week I took part in a candlelight vigil and protest
outside our university president's house along with other members of
our union. About 98% of the protesters were westerners, but we did
spontaneously break into song and sang throughout the protest and subsequent
march (we sang the Internationale and "Solidarity Forever"). This suggests
to me that westerners do "spontaneously break into song", it probably all
depends on the circumstance. Perhaps showers and candlelight marches
somehow reinforce the singing hormones :-)
-Sayan.
-S.BHATTACHARYA
Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <SHUBU.96J...@providence.cs.wisc.edu> sh...@cs.wisc.edu
>(Shubu Mukherjee) writes:
>>
>>SB> Fyi, chhow is not a Santhal dance.
>>
>>Assuming you are correct, I strongly suspect it is a tribal dance
>>form. Correct me if I am wrong. That is, tell me more about the
>>origins of chhow, please. If not, the same arguments apply.
>>
>>-Shubu
[...]
>Chow is not a Santhal dance, nor a Mundari dance as such . It is
>performed by a mixed group of Bengali and Santhalis only in Purulia .We
>do not see in any part of Bihar even where some Santhalees are there.
>We also do not see this dance in MEdinipur the central spot of
>Santhalis.The masters of Chow who have got accolades from the Indian
>Govt are not Santhals at all. Now where did it originate? Well all
>bengalee folk dances or song patterns originated from the aboriginal
>people in some form or the other.
From "Folklore of Bengal" by Ashutosh Bhattacharyya (1978): "... the Munda,
who are believed to be the earliest settlers over the border area of
Chota Nagpur and West Bengal..... At present, it has its concentrated
settlemenst near the Bagmundi Police Station of Purulia District...The
ritual masked dance known as Chhau, which it performs during summer to
induce sun-god to produce rain, has earned world-wide recognition in recent
years."
Elsewhere in the book, there is about 7-8 pages of description of Chhau,
under the category of "Mask Dance". It does state that this dance is
performed in West Bengal, Bihar, and Orissa. And that the dance in some of
the regions of Purulia and Midnapore has developed some special character.
... The Chhau dance of WB has four distinct characteristics... "Baghmundi",
"Arsa", "Jhalda" nd "Bandoyan."
...
The thematic contents are based usually on the episodes of the Ramayana.
Well, the above does contradict somewhat with what's been said in the
thread so far. So there..
- subhechha -
- samir
Souvik Das
>
> Chow is not a Santhal dance, nor a Mundari dance as such . It is
> performed by a mixed group of Bengali and Santhalis only in Purulia .We
> do not see in any part of Bihar even where some Santhalees are there.
> We also do not see this dance in MEdinipur the central spot of
> Santhalis.The masters of Chow who have got accolades from the Indian
> Govt are not Santhals at all. Now where did it originate? Well all
> bengalee folk dances or song patterns originated from the aboriginal
> people in some form or the other.
ami soumitra-r shonge akmot... chow originate kore besh kichu shotabdi
age. jamon bhaabe je kono folk culture originate kore thik shei rokom
bhaabei. tobe poshchim bangla-r folk culture-e akmatroi chow nach-i amar
mone hoy shob cheye dramatic ebong physically exhausting ....
chow nach dakhar bodhhoi shob cheye bhalo jaiga shantiniketan-er poush
malate.. chow purulia-r nach...
--
Email address : sou...@cs.uga.edu
sayan bhattacharyya
Amitabha Lahiri <mp...@central.susx.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>As for dhunuchi nrityo and dancing at bhashan and such, your question
>should be directed at Sayan. He chose to ignore them. I assumed certain
>reasons on his part, and I chose to ignore them as well. It is of course
>possible that I made incorrect assumptions. I'll wait for his explanations.
The reason I did not consider these as examples of the kind of social
dancing I had in mind, are as follows :
1) Not everyone in the community participates : hardly any women participate,
and also older people do not participate; the participation is
confined almost exclusively to young males.
2) These are limited to only a few specific days in the year.
-Sayan.
Amitabha Lahiri
Again, this seems not to have gone out the last time.
I apologise if it shows up twice at your server.
==
Sugato Bhattacharyya wrote:
>In your world view, how do you account for the numerous (reported)
>instances of those in the West who spontaneously break into song while
>taking a shower?
Come now, I was talking about spontaneous _social_ singing.
Taking a shower -- alone -- hardly counts as a social activity.
(And I can think of better things to than singing if I were
showering with a friend. :-))
I won't respond point for point to the rest, but ...
>How do these alternate hypotheses which do not go as far in the direction
>of "east in east and west is west and ne'er the twain shall meet" as your
>hypothesis does,
You do me injustice. My point was to suggest a similarity rather than the
difference -- what's dancing for `Westerners' is singing for Bengalis.
The line you have put in quotes is by Kipling (afaik), for whose
orientalist views I have no respect whatsoever.
As for dhunuchi nrityo and dancing at bhashan and such, your question
should be directed at Sayan. He chose to ignore them. I assumed certain
reasons on his part, and I chose to ignore them as well. It is of course
possible that I made incorrect assumptions. I'll wait for his explanations.
Amitabha
Soumitra Bose
writes:
>In article <4ehq6g$f...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <SHUBU.96J...@providence.cs.wisc.edu> sh...@cs.wisc.edu
>>(Shubu Mukherjee) writes:
>>>
>[...]
>
>>>SB> Fyi, chhow is not a Santhal dance.
>>>
>>>Assuming you are correct, I strongly suspect it is a tribal dance
>>>form. Correct me if I am wrong. That is, tell me more about the
>>>origins of chhow, please. If not, the same arguments apply.
>>>
>>>-Shubu
>
>[...]
>
>>performed by a mixed group of Bengali and Santhalis only in Purulia
>>do not see in any part of Bihar even where some Santhalees are there.
>>We also do not see this dance in MEdinipur the central spot of
>>Santhalis.The masters of Chow who have got accolades from the Indian
>>Govt are not Santhals at all. Now where did it originate? Well all
>>bengalee folk dances or song patterns originated from the aboriginal
>>people in some form or the other.
>
Chow nacher jonno jini podmoshree hoicheyen tini BAngalee ,Munda non.
Medinipur e kothai Munda achee jante ichhe hoi. Orissai je jaigata
BAngla o biharer sathe misheche seta Gopiballavpur thana , sekahan e
Munda bhabai jai na. ORissa e kothai Munda achey ? Ganjam jelai ? jante
iche hoi. Wbengal Govt er saltamami te to Munda medinipure powas jai
ni.
Ramayan ba Mahishashurmardini r moto kono mythical story Munda der
modhye nei.MArangburu r songye kono Hindu ba North Indian myth related
na . Chow nach niye onek research hoichey kothao ei tohyo dkehini je
eta Mundara kore , tahole Parshoborty rajyeo hoto.
-S.BHATTACHARYA
Souvik Das <sou...@ra.cs.uga.edu> wrote:
[...]
>
>ami soumitra-r shonge akmot... chow originate kore besh kichu shotabdi
>age. jamon bhaabe je kono folk culture originate kore thik shei rokom
>bhaabei. tobe poshchim bangla-r folk culture-e akmatroi chow nach-i amar
>mone hoy shob cheye dramatic ebong physically exhausting ....
>chow nach dakhar bodhhoi shob cheye bhalo jaiga shantiniketan-er poush
>malate.. chow purulia-r nach...
Btw, for those living in or near NYC, there would be a Chhau dance program
soon (check the latest India Abroad) arranged, I believe, by the World
Music Institute.
- samir
>--
>Email address : sou...@cs.uga.edu
-S.BHATTACHARYA
Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <4elhpk$a...@nntpa.cb.att.com> s...@hogph.ho.att.com (-S.BHATTACHARYA)
>writes:
>>
>>>>SB> Fyi, chhow is not a Santhal dance.
>>
>>>performed by a mixed group of Bengali and Santhalis only in Purulia
>We
>>>do not see in any part of Bihar even where some Santhalees are there.
>>>We also do not see this dance in MEdinipur the central spot of
>>>Santhalis.The masters of Chow who have got accolades from the Indian
>>>Govt are not Santhals at all. Now where did it originate? Well all
>>>bengalee folk dances or song patterns originated from the aboriginal
>>>people in some form or the other.
>>
>>
>>Well, the above does contradict somewhat with what's been said in the
>>thread so far. So there..
>>
>>- subhechha -
>>
>>- samir
>Ekti boi te lekha holei sta authentic hoie jai na.
Thik kotha. Aar ami motei expert noi. Tobe mone holo je Ashutosh
Bhattacharyya (AB)'r boi-er shonge aapnar deoa tothyer kichhu
milchhe na, er ekta ni:shpotti hole bhalo hoy :)
Apni bolechhen: (1) Chaau Santhal naach noy, (2) Munda-o noy, (3) ".. it
originated from the aboriginal people..."
Tahole ei "aboriginal" component-ti ki? AshuBabu'r mote Munda. Apni ki
bolen?
Oboshho ekta karone hoyto ei confusion ta hochhe: Munda (aka Bhumij
[son of the soil], Chuar) Bangla, Bihar, Orissa-r sonnibishTo elakay bohu,
bohu-din dhorei aachhe. Kajei apnaar kaachhe Chhau-naachiye "bangali-ra"
hoyto AB'r kaachhe (because of their lineage) "Munda" ? Eta ki hote paare?
>
>Chow nacher jonno jini podmoshree hoicheyen tini BAngalee ,Munda non.
>Medinipur e kothai Munda achee jante ichhe hoi. Orissai je jaigata
>BAngla o biharer sathe misheche seta Gopiballavpur thana , sekahan e
>Munda bhabai jai na. ORissa e kothai Munda achey ? Ganjam jelai ? jante
>iche hoi. Wbengal Govt er saltamami te to Munda medinipure powas jai
>ni.
Hmmm... I guess it is difficult to be certain, but again, according to AB:
" The *most ancient* group now living in West Bengal along the western border
districts of *Midnapore*, Purulia, Bankura, and Birbhum *seems* to be the
Austric-speaking group known as the Munda."
>Ramayan ba Mahishashurmardini r moto kono mythical story Munda der
>modhye nei.MArangburu r songye kono Hindu ba North Indian myth related
Quote from S. K. Mahapatra; "Orissa" from Marg: Tribal Arts of Eastern
India:
"The concept of the Vedic Rudra and the Puranic Siva become
transformed in Orissa to the village deity Mahadev and , in case of the
Santals, to Maran-buru. In the performing arts the Chhau dance of
*Mayurbhanj * exhibits elements that can be the clearly traced to the
classical Orissi tradition, the local folk expressions, and the Santal
tribal dances particularly the Dantha and the Dasain."
>na . Chow nach niye onek research hoichey kothao ei tohyo dkehini je
Again from AB: "The Mundas worship the tribal sun-god Sing-Bonga and Jahir
Buru, *though some of them have become more Hinduized and have accepted
some Hindu gods and goddesses..." Also, he notes that Chhau is performed to
induce the *sun-god* to produce rain. Is this true?
Hoyto "main-stream" aar "adibasi"-der moddhe overlap aamra ja mone kori
sadharonoto, taar cheye onek onek beshi. Btw, manipuri raas nritya-r
ongsho-grohonkari-der cultural history ki rokom?
>eta Mundara kore , tahole Parshoborty rajyeo hoto.
See above.
- shubhechha -
- samir
-S.BHATTACHARYA
Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[...]
>
>In bengal other than the Kanaujis during the Sen regime and the
>KArnatakis during the Hussain Shah regime , and the immigrant pathans
>and small number of other intruders there were a huge numbe rof people
>who were neither Mundas, nor Santhals. e.g the Bagdis of South BEngal,
>Koibortas and MAlos or East BEngal and many others. THe aboriginals or
>Purulia and BAnkura who could not be lineated to the present
>Jharkhandis were mentioned in my previous note as "aboriginals"
>
So, according to you, the aboriginal component is: non-Santhal, non-Munda,
non-overlapping_with_Jharkhandis. You have named some other cultures such
as Bagdi, Mals, Koiborto. Many more can be added (e.g. Dom, hNaRi, OraoN).
Do you know of any *positive* correlation of Chhau with any/some of these?
Now it seems I am getting the hang of a po-mo approach to answering a
question :)
>>"The concept of the Vedic Rudra and the Puranic Siva become
>>transformed in Orissa to the village deity Mahadev and , in case of
>the
>>Santals, to Maran-buru. In the performing arts the Chhau dance of
>>*Mayurbhanj * exhibits elements that can be the clearly traced to the
>>classical Orissi tradition, the local folk expressions, and the Santal
>>tribal dances particularly the Dantha and the Dasain."
>>
>I have found almost all the Jharkhandi intellectuals opposing this line
>of thought vehemently.It is interesting to note the story of Santhali
>and Mundari genesis which has no parallel with the Puranic genesis or
>the various geneses.
What line of thought do the Jharkhandi intellectuals oppose? That Chhau
dance of Mayurbhanj (provided of course, you accept that it exists outside
of Bengal) exhibit elements traceable to all 3 of the influences listed
above? Or a more general notion that classical art form can never
influence what may be considered now a tribal/aborginal/folk one?
I don't think things would be that simple -- at
different times the influence of one to the other can be either way.
Even, it is entirely possible for a 'tomare ja diyechhinu she tomari daan'!
type of situation. :)
Anyway, I would remain interested in knowing of any positive identification
of the aborginal source to Chhau. Thanks in advance.
- shubhechha -
- samir
>>
>Never saw a chow for the sun-god? But it could be .Almost always it was
>about Ramayan,and Mahishashurmardini .Some form of Gambhira Dance could
>be related to some sort of a Sun-god , but that is streatchable
>allusion too.
Soumitra Bose
writes:
>
>In article <4en035$q...@cloner3.netcom.com>,
>Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <4elhpk$a...@nntpa.cb.att.com> s...@hogph.ho.att.com
(-S.BHATTACHARYA)
>>writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>SB> Fyi, chhow is not a Santhal dance.
>>>
>>>>Chow is not a Santhal dance, nor a Mundari dance as such . It is
>>>>performed by a mixed group of Bengali and Santhalis only in Purulia
>>We
>>>>do not see in any part of Bihar even where some Santhalees are
there.
>>>>We also do not see this dance in MEdinipur the central spot of
>>>>Santhalis.The masters of Chow who have got accolades from the
Indian
>>>>Govt are not Santhals at all. Now where did it originate? Well all
>>>>bengalee folk dances or song patterns originated from the
aboriginal
>>>>people in some form or the other.
>>>
In bengal other than the Kanaujis during the Sen regime and the
KArnatakis during the Hussain Shah regime , and the immigrant pathans
and small number of other intruders there were a huge numbe rof people
who were neither Mundas, nor Santhals. e.g the Bagdis of South BEngal,
Koibortas and MAlos or East BEngal and many others. THe aboriginals or
Purulia and BAnkura who could not be lineated to the present
Jharkhandis were mentioned in my previous note as "aboriginals"
>
>>>
>India:
>
>"The concept of the Vedic Rudra and the Puranic Siva become
>transformed in Orissa to the village deity Mahadev and , in case of
the
>Santals, to Maran-buru. In the performing arts the Chhau dance of
>*Mayurbhanj * exhibits elements that can be the clearly traced to the
>classical Orissi tradition, the local folk expressions, and the Santal
>tribal dances particularly the Dantha and the Dasain."
>
I have found almost all the Jharkhandi intellectuals opposing this line
of thought vehemently.It is interesting to note the story of Santhali
and Mundari genesis which has no parallel with the Puranic genesis or
the various geneses.
>>na . Chow nach niye onek research hoichey kothao ei tohyo dkehini je
>
>Again from AB: "The Mundas worship the tribal sun-god Sing-Bonga and
Jahir
>Buru, *though some of them have become more Hinduized and have
accepted
>some Hindu gods and goddesses..." Also, he notes that Chhau is
performed to
>induce the *sun-god* to produce rain. Is this true?
>
Never saw a chow for the sun-god? But it could be .Almost always it was
about Ramayan,and Mahishashurmardini .Some form of Gambhira Dance could
be related to some sort of a Sun-god , but that is streatchable
allusion too.
>Hoyto "main-stream" aar "adibasi"-der moddhe overlap aamra ja mone
kori
>sadharonoto, taar cheye onek onek beshi. Btw, manipuri raas nritya-r
>ongsho-grohonkari-der cultural history ki rokom?
>Ekdomi noi MAnipuri Culture absolutely duto bhage bibhakta
,Bishnupriya Manipuri culture GAod Bango theke geche , tar bistarito
itihas ache, Sekhane kono "tribal" element nei. seta okhankar rajar
prishtoposhokota pai. Kintu MEitei culture e eshob ekebarei nei.
>>eta Mundara kore , tahole Parshoborty rajyeo hoto.
>
>See above.
>
Soumitra Bose
writes:
>
>In article <4es9e3$4...@cloner3.netcom.com>,
>Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>[...]
>>
>>In bengal other than the Kanaujis during the Sen regime and the
>>KArnatakis during the Hussain Shah regime , and the immigrant pathans
>>and small number of other intruders there were a huge numbe rof
people
>>who were neither Mundas, nor Santhals. e.g the Bagdis of South
BEngal,
>>Koibortas and MAlos or East BEngal and many others. THe aboriginals
or
>>Purulia and BAnkura who could not be lineated to the present
>>Jharkhandis were mentioned in my previous note as "aboriginals"
>>
>
non-Munda,
>non-overlapping_with_Jharkhandis. You have named some other cultures
such
>as Bagdi, Mals, Koiborto. Many more can be added (e.g. Dom, hNaRi,
OraoN).
>Do you know of any *positive* correlation of Chhau with any/some of
these?
>
>Now it seems I am getting the hang of a po-mo approach to answering a
>question :)
>
>>>transformed in Orissa to the village deity Mahadev and , in case of
>>the
>>>Santals, to Maran-buru. In the performing arts the Chhau dance of
>>>*Mayurbhanj * exhibits elements that can be the clearly traced to
the
>>>classical Orissi tradition, the local folk expressions, and the
Santal
>>>tribal dances particularly the Dantha and the Dasain."
>>>
>>I have found almost all the Jharkhandi intellectuals opposing this
line
>>of thought vehemently.It is interesting to note the story of Santhali
>>and Mundari genesis which has no parallel with the Puranic genesis or
>>the various geneses.
>
Chhau
>dance of Mayurbhanj (provided of course, you accept that it exists
outside
>of Bengal) exhibit elements traceable to all 3 of the influences
listed
>above? Or a more general notion that classical art form can never
>influence what may be considered now a tribal/aborginal/folk one?
>I don't think things would be that simple -- at
>different times the influence of one to the other can be either way.
>Even, it is entirely possible for a 'tomare ja diyechhinu she tomari
daan'!
>type of situation. :)
>
>Anyway, I would remain interested in knowing of any positive
identification
>of the aborginal source to Chhau. Thanks in advance.
>
>
>- samir
>
>>>
was
>>about Ramayan,and Mahishashurmardini .Some form of Gambhira Dance
could
>>be related to some sort of a Sun-god , but that is streatchable
>>allusion too.
>
>
The jharkhandi intellectuals always oppose the line of thought that the
Santhali and the Mundari myths are derived from the Shiv and Bishnu or
Rudra myths .