Puja and US-based Bengalis
Joydeep Bhattacharya
Why is it that Bengalis in the US celebrate Durga Puja on weekends even when the actual dates for the
Puja are otherwise? Why can't they claim the 4 days of the Pujas as "religious holidays" just as Jews
claim Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur as religious holidays and dont go to work on those days? I am not sure
but some legislation does exist in the US which allows people of different religious faiths to claim certain
days of the year as religious holidays (without incurring the wrath of their employers!). Therefore, is it not
possible for Bengalis to do the same?
Or is it that we are "ashamed" in some way of our own customs and festivals? I am inclined to think this
way. IMHO, this shame extends to other spheres of life too; our abhorrence of ethnic dresses like saris,
dhotis, kurta-pajama etc.(even in otherwise informal social gatherings in the US); our children growing up
not being able to read/speak/write Bengali.....
And yet, you would be hard-pressed to find a German kid who does not speak German, a child of Jewish
parentage who does not celebrate Hanukkah, two Italians who dont break-off into their mother-tongue even
when others around dont speak Italian,... you get the point. Some of us are probably proud that our children
speak little Bengali but speak English with an American accent.
Paradoxically, as Bengalis, we are the first to proclaim (mainly to non-Indians) that Bose (of Bose speakers
fame) is a Bengali, as is Amartya Sen (esp. when he has consistently been chosen by economists around
the world as being the most deserving to get the Nobel Prize in Economics). We also feel proud when Ray
gets a lifetime achievement Oscar, and yet, if you look at it carefully, somewhere down the line, our actions
reveal our deep sense of shame in our own culture.
Wonder what is behind all this?
Regards,
Joydeep
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Joydeep Bhattacharya
Finance and Business Economics Department
School of Business Administration
University of Southern California
Los Angeles CA 90089-1421
Phone: (213) 740 6518 ; Fax : (213) 740 6555
--------------------------------------------------------------
Debashis Bhattacharya
joyd...@rcf.usc.edu (Joydeep Bhattacharya) wrote:
>Why is it that Bengalis in the US celebrate Durga Puja on weekends even when the actual dates for the
>Puja are otherwise? Why can't they claim the 4 days of the Pujas as "religious holidays" just as Jews
>claim Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur as religious holidays and dont go to work on those days? I am not sure
>but some legislation does exist in the US which allows people of different religious faiths to claim certain
>days of the year as religious holidays (without incurring the wrath of their employers!). Therefore, is it not
>possible for Bengalis to do the same?
Thank you Joydeep, for raising this question which I have raised in person with
numerous Bengalis in US, and I believe I also raised publicly sometime last
year.
The response, almost always, has been: "who will come on weekdays?" Of course,
I can imagine a spineless Bengali cowering in front of his boss, who says "how
dare you celebrate your religion?" Or maybe, the same Bengali saying to himself
"why waste my vacation days on Durga puja? Why can't they have it on a weekend,
so that I do not need to waste my vacation days?"
In any case, all of the excuses are pathetic. The bottom line is, we, Bengali
Hindus in US (and elsewhere too), are simply too cowardly and disinterested to
own up our religious values. To us, Durga puja is merely a get-together, and of
course, get-togethers can happen on "our chosen day".
I, on my part, normally do not go to any Durga puja (at least not during the
puja itself, which I consider to be a JOKE, when it is held according to the
convenience of the organizers). I do often participate in the social gathering
(and the thing they call "cultural program", although "culture" is usually
missing from that program) that follows in the evening -- at least some
familiar faces, a familiar language, and maybe a few familiar songs etc. as
bonus.
Until some of us are in a position to change this stupidity (call it "chhele
khela") in the name of Durga puja, single-handedly, I think its best to simply
ignore the garbage that goes on.
>
>Or is it that we are "ashamed" in some way of our own customs and festivals? I am inclined to think this
>way. IMHO, this shame extends to other spheres of life too; our abhorrence of ethnic dresses like saris,
>dhotis, kurta-pajama etc.(even in otherwise informal social gatherings in the US); our children growing up
>not being able to read/speak/write Bengali.....
In a way, many of us are. Some others are not ashamed, but too busy trying to
"be assimilated" into the US society. However, by-and-large, we just lack any
pride in our heritage! The rest of your post merely points out the difference
between Bengalis, and races that are proud of their heritage.
Again, that's sad and pathetic, but that sums up, in a few words, why Bengalis
are in the deep hole, that they are in India today. We are always too busy
copying somebody else -- first the Europeans, and now, only God knows what
(actually, even God does not know what, I guess)!!
.. deleted ...
>
>Wonder what is behind all this?
You already have my point of view.
>
>Regards,
>
>Joydeep
>--
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>Joydeep Bhattacharya
>Finance and Business Economics Department
>School of Business Administration
>University of Southern California
>Los Angeles CA 90089-1421
>Phone: (213) 740 6518 ; Fax : (213) 740 6555
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
Debashis Bhattacharya.
Apratim Sarkar
Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> writes:
>However, by-and-large, we just lack any pride in our heritage!
Ektu bolun na kindly Bangali'r heritage bolte thik ki bojhai? Net'e/
baire kato jon'ke jigesh korlum, keu bolte raji non. (In fact apnakeo
bodhhai ekbar jigesh korechhilum.) Shotyi bolchhi, US-based
Bangali'ra eto frequently e'i heritage'r katha balen (in inverse
proportion to the number of days spend in the US), amar khub
jante ichchhe kore jinish'ta ki.
Apratim.
--
Shei nimesh'r ashesh uttoriyo Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are
Shab ramoni'ke mone hoto ramoniyo are my own and shouldn't be construed in
Jadukarder mela boshe jeto swapane| any way to represent that of my employer.
- Arun Kumar Sarkar.
Samir Bhattacharya
Joydeep likhechhe:
>Why is it that Bengalis in the US celebrate Durga Puja on weekends even when the actual dates for the
>Puja are otherwise? Why can't they claim the **4 days of the Pujas** as "religious holidays" just as
---------------------
Kichhuta a-praashongik holeo purota noy tai likhchhi:
Biyer porer bochhor amar maashi baaper baDi eshechhe pujo'r somoy.
Hole ki hobe, mesho-o kodin baade hajir bou-ke nijer baDi niye jabar
jonye -- oder pNaaji alada, ebong shei hishebe she bochhor oder pujo
tin-dine shesh! Amar didima'r mukhta mone aachhe, raage lal tok-tok
korchhe, meyeke taDataDi chheDe dite hobe. Ar directly quote korchhi:
" E rokom pNaaji alada janle biye ditum na!" :)
Shudhu bangladeshei jodi oi duto pNaaji groho-nokkhotryer chokranto-ke
tuDi mere align kora jeto, didima, ni:sondehe tate sommoti diten
(sadharon hishebe gNoDa howa sotteo).
Jani tomar proshno-ta aro ektu onyo dhoroner. Kintu ta sotteo shob
"pNaaji-kei" align korte parle bhalo hoy ki-na shetao bhebe dekhaar
moto.
Shubhechha,
Samir
Arnab Gupta
Debashis Bhattacharya wrote:
..[deleted]..
BeDe likhechhen Debashis-babu. Shotii amra bangali-ra boro dikbhroshto hoye
pori shohojei.
>>
>>Or is it that we are "ashamed" in some way of our own customs and festivals? I am inclined to think this
>>way. IMHO, this shame extends to other spheres of life too; our abhorrence of ethnic dresses like saris,
>>dhotis, kurta-pajama etc.(even in otherwise informal social gatherings in the US); our children growing up
>>not being able to read/speak/write Bengali.....
>In a way, many of us are. Some others are not ashamed, but too busy trying to
>"be assimilated" into the US society. However, by-and-large, we just lack any
>pride in our heritage! The rest of your post merely points out the difference
>between Bengalis, and races that are proud of their heritage.
>
>Again, that's sad and pathetic, but that sums up, in a few words, why Bengalis
>are in the deep hole, that they are in India today. We are always too busy
>copying somebody else -- first the Europeans, and now, only God knows what
>(actually, even God does not know what, I guess)!!
Sheki! Janena ? DNaDan, aykta udahoron di. Deja-news-er archive thheke pelam,
SCI-te posted purano aykta lekha..
Eta markini durodorshon-er bhNaDeder nokol korar aykta prochesta
boltey paaren.
***************************begin quote*********************************
Subject: Top Ten Signs of a ABS(Sexually)CD Female
From: Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach>
Date: 1996/09/06
Message-Id: <50pqr3$p...@cauldron.spdc.ti.com>
References: <507phj$7...@news.bu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-Ascii
Organization: TI Semiconductor Process and Device Center
X-Url: news:507phj$7...@news.bu.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,alt.culture.us.asian-Indian
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.12 (X11; I; HP-UX A.09.05 9000/715)
10. Thinks its cool to discuss sexual escapades in a public forum like a NG.
9. Confuses sex with love.
8. Invites (or accepts invitations from) strangers to bed.
7. Dreams of babies while cooling down between sessions with strangers.
5. Dreams about doing it with Sartre and getting a free lecture at the same
time.
4. Thinks she understands the 60's sexual experimentations.
3. Likes running commentary while "entering" and "exiting".
2. Has a hard time differentiating between dogs and bitches in heat, and men
and women.
And, the number 1 sign is ...
1. At climax, she cries F-R-E-E-D-O-O-O-O-M!!!!
Debashis.
(Purely personal opinion).
****************************end quote*****************************
Ei thread-e nokol kora niye kotha uthechhe kina, tai bollam.
baRo kosto hoi, egulo dekhle.
Arnab.
Apratim Sarkar
I wrote:
>Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> writes:
>
>>However, by-and-large, we just lack any pride in our heritage!
>
> Ektu bolun na kindly Bangali'r heritage bolte thik ki bojhai? Net'e/
> baire kato jon'ke jigesh korlum, keu bolte raji non. (In fact apnakeo
> bodhhai ekbar jigesh korechhilum.) Shotyi bolchhi, US-based
> Bangali'ra eto frequently e'i heritage'r katha balen (in inverse
^^^^^^^
Sorry, ota direct habe.
Kalpataru Barman
Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>
>Why is it that Bengalis in the US celebrate Durga Puja on weekends even
> when the actual dates for the Puja are otherwise? Why can't they claim
> claim Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur as religious holidays and dont go to
> work on those days?
Bengalis celebrate Durga Puja ( especially outside Bengal ) more as
a fun/enjoyment ( get together, food, cultural activities ) than the
religious seriousness. And how can one enjoy the fun in unpaid week
days ? Weekend (or paid weekdays) is best for fun. And as far as
religious awareness is concerned, they are very much indifferent
or reluctant about religious bindings.
(Ami amar ek bandhu ke jaani , je taar poitey-r suto diye hostel-e
masari-r dori tani-ye chhilo. Eta suney taar baba maa temon kichu
boken ni, sudhu thakumaa-i ja ektu ....)
Debashis Bhattacharya
asa...@us.oracle.com (Apratim Sarkar) wrote:
>I wrote:
>
>>Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> writes:
>>
>>>However, by-and-large, we just lack any pride in our heritage!
>>
>> Ektu bolun na kindly Bangali'r heritage bolte thik ki bojhai? Net'e/
>> baire kato jon'ke jigesh korlum, keu bolte raji non. (In fact apnakeo
>> bodhhai ekbar jigesh korechhilum.) Shotyi bolchhi, US-based
>> Bangali'ra eto frequently e'i heritage'r katha balen (in inverse
> ^^^^^^^
> Sorry, ota direct habe.
>
>> proportion to the number of days spend in the US), amar khub
>> jante ichchhe kore jinish'ta ki.
>
> Apratim.
Baddo kothin proshno karen apni. ekhon taRa achhe, aar amar views to ami agei
bolechhi.
antotopokshye Durga pujo ta je weekend-e kara-ta amader heritage noi --- goto
dui shotabdi-te, kichhu na hok, bangladeshe (in the greater sense of the word,
and not in the political entity sense) kothao weekend dekhe Durga pujo hoi ni.
IMHO, that qualifies as heritage --- je Durga pujo ta tithi hishebe hoi,
amader subidhemoto noi -- and tradition, as well.
I guess I should modify my statement to read "by-and-large, we just lack any
pride in our heritage and traditions".
ebar santushto, to?
Debashis.
Sugato Bhattacharyya
In article <54b1dr$7...@cauldron.spdc.ti.com>, Debashis Bhattacharya
<bhattach> wrote:
>IMHO, that qualifies as heritage --- je Durga pujo ta tithi hishebe hoi,
>amader subidhemoto noi -- and tradition, as well.
Aami jani je aami bangali heritage-er baire katha bolchi, kintu jototuku
mone acche tate bodh hoy je sarat-kale durga pujo karata shuru korechilo
Ram. Aashol tithi to boshonto'r shomoy. Ram tai nijer subhidemoto tithi
toiri korechilo - ejonyoi etake bola hoy "akaal bodhon". Janina Ramer
bangali oitijhyo'r byapare ki bolar chilo, kintu eituku bodh hoy je
manush pujo-tujo kore generally tar nijer shubidhe moto. Ekhon porjontyo
hindu dhorme emon kotha shunini je bhagoban bole diyechen kobe, katar
shomoy kon pujo korthe hobe.
--
Sugato Bhattacharyya
Snehasis Ganguly
: >However, by-and-large, we just lack any pride in our heritage!
: Ektu bolun na kindly Bangali'r heritage bolte thik ki bojhai? Net'e/
: baire kato jon'ke jigesh korlum, keu bolte raji non. (In fact apnakeo
: bodhhai ekbar jigesh korechhilum.) Shotyi bolchhi, US-based
: Bangali'ra eto frequently e'i heritage'r katha balen (in inverse
: proportion to the number of days spend in the US), amar khub
Ota direct proportion hobe, IMHO.
snehasis
: jante ichchhe kore jinish'ta ki.
: Apratim.
: --
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <548vir$s...@inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com>, asa...@us.oracle.com says...
>
>Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> writes:
>
>>However, by-and-large, we just lack any pride in our heritage!
>
> Ektu bolun na kindly Bangali'r heritage bolte thik ki bojhai? Net'e/
> baire kato jon'ke jigesh korlum, keu bolte raji non. (In fact apnakeo
> bodhhai ekbar jigesh korechhilum.) Shotyi bolchhi, US-based
> Bangali'ra eto frequently e'i heritage'r katha balen (in inverse
> proportion to the number of days spend in the US), amar khub
>
> Apratim.
Ekta try ni; jaani e byapare Apra amaar theke oneik beshi podashuno koreche. Amaar kaache heritage
kothatar maane: any set of ideas/principles which a group of people hold dear inspite of the fact that those
ideas/principles may not be shared by others around them (in time and space!).
I agree that it is hard to pin down something as being Bengali "heritage" (I dont think Debashis was trying
such a watertight classification); but as somone (I think it was A.K. Sen) once said "Poverty is like an
elephant; hard to define, but easy to recognize"; so is the case with heritage!
When it comes to heritage and its preservation, one group mystifies me: the Jews. In spite of all the
opposition, they seem to be doing a good job of preserving their religion and heritage.
Joydeep
Sharmila Mukherjee
Debashis-babu pujo shombondhe jaaniyechen:
[...]
> antotopokshye Durga pujo ta je weekend-e kara-ta amader heritage noi --- goto
> dui shotabdi-te, kichhu na hok, bangladeshe (in the greater sense of the word,
> and not in the political entity sense) kothao weekend dekhe Durga pujo hoi ni.
>
> IMHO, that qualifies as heritage --- je Durga pujo ta tithi hishebe hoi,
> amader subidhemoto noi -- and tradition, as well.
>
> I guess I should modify my statement to read "by-and-large, we just lack any
> pride in our heritage and traditions".
>
> ebar santushto, to?
>
> Debashis.
Aami Debashish-babu-r shaathe ayk mot, aei byapare. Nijer shubidhe moto
pujo korbo bohukaaler traditon-ke tuDi mere uDiye diye, eta bhaabte
kyamon jyano laage. Jyamon, Houston-e pujo holo aei weekend-e, Austin-e
tNara du-shoptaho aage pujo korlen...Austin pujo committee kokhonoi
Houston-er shaathe ayk-ee weekend-e pujo raakhen na jaate tNara duto
pujo-te jogdaan korte paaren. Dallas to aaro ayk step egiye gyachen,
hall paan ni bole tNara November-e pujo korben...puro byapartai jyano ki
rokom aykta chhele khyala hoye dNaaDiyeche bole mone hoi...e gulo dekhle
aamader-i kharaap laage, aamader aager generation-er to shotti-ee korun
obostha!
Sharmila
Debashis Bhattacharya
sug...@umich.edu (Sugato Bhattacharyya) wrote:
>In article <54b1dr$7...@cauldron.spdc.ti.com>, Debashis Bhattacharya
><bhattach> wrote:
>
>>amader subidhemoto noi -- and tradition, as well.
>
>mone acche tate bodh hoy je sarat-kale durga pujo karata shuru korechilo
>Ram. Aashol tithi to boshonto'r shomoy. Ram tai nijer subhidemoto tithi
>toiri korechilo - ejonyoi etake bola hoy "akaal bodhon". Janina Ramer
>bangali oitijhyo'r byapare ki bolar chilo, kintu eituku bodh hoy je
>manush pujo-tujo kore generally tar nijer shubidhe moto. Ekhon porjontyo
>hindu dhorme emon kotha shunini je bhagoban bole diyechen kobe, katar
>shomoy kon pujo korthe hobe.
Excellent point, I agree.
On the other hand, Ram sharat-kale pujo shuru korechhilen kina, athoba ota
shudhumatro galpo-katha, seta verify karar absolutely kono upai nei. tachhara,
aapnar ei galpo-kathar je aaro ekta dik achhe (jeta hoito aapnar kheyal chhilo
na) set niye ektu baade discuss korbo. jeta verify kara sambhab, seta ei, je
sharat kaler debi pakhshe durga pujo bangladeshe anekdin dhore hoye ashechhe.
as for Hindu dharmer flexibility, etc., I'm very much aware of that
flexibility. tabe, oi je bale "freedom comes with responsibilities",
flexibility-r maane jathechhachar, eta maante parlam na. ekhane pujo ta je
nijeder ichchhamoto kono ekta weekend-e kara hoi, seta ki satyi-i Ram-er moto
ekta bitikichchhiri abosthai poRe, naki just nijer schedule taake jaate kono
bhabei adol badol korte na hoi, sei preronai?
majar byapar-ta ei, je anek somoi ekhane pujo hoi debipaksha paar hoye jawar
pare -- kintu purohit takho-o montro auRe jaan je "... pakshyer sashthi-te aami
durga-ke awbhan korchhi ... "!! What a joke! anonto din-kshon gulo to thik bala
jete paarto!
aapni tarker khatire ekta bhalo point tulechhen bote, kintu amar dharona appnio
manben je USA-te durga pujo jara organize kore, by-and-large, they do not give
a damn for the pujo itself, nor do they know (by-and-large, there may be few
exceptions) much about the pujo itself. amar proshno-ta ei, je jekhane pujo ta
gouno, sekhane adou ei bhaRong kara keno? murti na bosie, kichhu meaningless
sanskrito mantro (jeta 99%+ attendees bojhe na, ebong care kore na) na auRiye,
sudhu "durga pujo upolokshye" ekta social get-together kora hoi na keno? after
all, setai to asol lakshyo, USA-te, noi ki?
Hindu dharme kothao bhaRong-baji (jeta chale ekhane, pujor name) ke glorify
korechhe, emon-o to mone paRe na -- jodio amar Hindu dharmer knowledge tamon
beshi noi, ebong jodi bhul shudhre dyan, to badhito habo.
After all, galpo katha maante gele, Ram jakhon tNar durgar paye anjoli dewar
108 padmer ekta missing dekhen, takon tNar nijer "padmochakshu" upRe dewar
prastuti korechhilen! bolun to, USA-te kon durga pujor organizer (chakshur
katha to
chhere-i dilam) tNar ghumer 5 minutes nashto korte raaji achhen, pujo-ta sathik
tithi-te karar janyo?
That's the difference between "commitment", which earns you flexibility in
Hindudharma, and "bhaRaong-baji" which has no place in any dharma.
>
>--
>Sugato Bhattacharyya
Debashis.
Debashis Bhattacharya
Kalpataru Barman <ka...@fyiowa.infi.net> wrote:
>Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>>
.. deleted ...
>
>Bengalis celebrate Durga Puja ( especially outside Bengal ) more as
>a fun/enjoyment ( get together, food, cultural activities ) than the
>religious seriousness. And how can one enjoy the fun in unpaid week
>days ? Weekend (or paid weekdays) is best for fun. And as far as
>religious awareness is concerned, they are very much indifferent
>or reluctant about religious bindings.
.. deleted ...
My point exactly. So why have this farce called pujo? Just have a get-together.
I have seen this in Ann Arbor, and in New Haven, where no pujo was held, but a
get together was held after the pujo (bijoya upolokshe), and it was very nice
in both place. There was great food, and nice performances -- a good community
spirit, overall. Why spoil all that with a farce in the name of durga pujo?
Debashis.
Apratim Sarkar
Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> writes:
>asa...@us.oracle.com (Apratim Sarkar) wrote:
>>I wrote:
>>
>>>Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> writes:
>>>
>>>>However, by-and-large, we just lack any pride in our heritage!
>>>
>>> Ektu bolun na kindly Bangali'r heritage bolte thik ki bojhai? Net'e/
>>> baire kato jon'ke jigesh korlum, keu bolte raji non. (In fact apnakeo
>>> bodhhai ekbar jigesh korechhilum.) Shotyi bolchhi, US-based
>>> Bangali'ra eto frequently e'i heritage'r katha balen (in inverse
>> ^^^^^^^
>> Sorry, ota direct habe.
>>
>>> proportion to the number of days spend in the US), amar khub
>>> jante ichchhe kore jinish'ta ki.
>>
>> Apratim.
>
>
>Baddo kothin proshno karen apni.
Apnake jodi unintentionally bhebRe diye thaki, sincerely khyamparthee.
>ekhon taRa achhe, aar amar views to ami agei
>bolechhi.
>
>antotopokshye Durga pujo ta je weekend-e kara-ta amader heritage noi --- goto
>dui shotabdi-te, kichhu na hok, bangladeshe (in the greater sense of the word,
>and not in the political entity sense) kothao weekend dekhe Durga pujo hoi ni.
>
>IMHO, that qualifies as heritage --- je Durga pujo ta tithi hishebe hoi,
>amader subidhemoto noi -- and tradition, as well.
Durga pujo'te ami labRa ar khichuRi khete jai, sheta pelei amar holo.
Anyway, probashe niyom je nasti, she byapare ki balen?
>I guess I should modify my statement to read "by-and-large, we just lack any
>pride in our heritage and traditions".
Amar proshno'ta holo "our heritage"'r definition ebang example niye.
Pare shomoi hole kindly ektu bolben.
Apnar katha shune mone holo strict adherence to Hindu religio-social
norm'ke apni Bangali heritage bole chalano'r chesta korchhen. Ekhon
eke to shab Bangali'ra Hindu noi, dui Hindu Bangali'ra shabai
practicing Hindu noi, tin practicing HB'ra'o motamuti open-minded
about strict adherence to tithi-nakkhotro and other religio-social
norms, amar experience'e.
Kolkata'i lok'e bangla tarikh'i generally jhik kore bolte parbe na
jigesh korle, tithi-nakkhotro to dure thakuk. Kintu era shabai maha
utsahe Durga Pujo'i participate kare. Mantra na bujhei bhul uchcharane
anjali dei.
Dhunuchi nach ki bishorjon'r bandparty ki oshtami'r rattire prem-
freme eshab'i amar chena Kolkata'r Durga pujo'r tradition'r modhye
paRe. Mike'e Hindi/Bangla gaan, pandel'e choti hariye jaowa. Cinema.
Ashtami'te khichuRi, nabami'te pNatha'r mangsho. Bijaya'i mishtimukh.
Shekhane US-probashi Bangali'ra tradition, Sangaskrito mantro'r
jathartha proyog etc. niye matha ghamachchhe, this exemplifies, IMHO,
that indeed, identity is majorly in problem. As IDG wisely noted,
"Identity khatre me hain!"
>ebar santushto, to?
Last post by me in this thread.
>Debashis.
Indranil Barman
Joydeep Bhattacharya (joyd...@rcf.usc.edu) wrote:
: Or is it that we are "ashamed" in some way of our own customs and festivals? I am inclined to think this
: dhotis, kurta-pajama etc.
I have a suggestion. Why don't you guys go to the offices and universities
with dhotis or kurta-pajama's or salwar kamiz and leave the rest of us
about our own choice what to wear. I recently saw in my university
an Indian girl biking with salwar-kamiz on. No matter, how much
heritage she was bearing, the scene was not pretty.
The ABCDs get confused because their parents try to impose
thier values in a society which is not the same. If you are so
fanatic about your own heritage, why don't you go back and perform
all the rituals you can.
The question is whether you want to assimilate in the American culture
or whether you want to impose other culture to the Americans. If some
German kids speaks German, it doesn't mean they are doing the right
thing.
Regards,
Indranil
Arindam Banerjee
Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> wrote:
> My point exactly. So why have this farce called pujo? Just have a get-together.
> I have seen this in Ann Arbor, and in New Haven, where no pujo was held, but a
> get together was held after the pujo (bijoya upolokshe), and it was very nice
> in both place. There was great food, and nice performances -- a good community
> spirit, overall. Why spoil all that with a farce in the name of durga pujo?
>
Pujo is related to religion, and religion according to Durkheim is useful
because it creates unity among groups with some shared values.
So while people will come for great food and nice performances, they
may remember more important appointments. Such food and performances
may be had anytime - but Puja comes only once a year (though maybe
a few more times in the US context.)
As for the farce. Yes if no one is interested in the Puja proper then
it becomes a farce. If the priest does not prepare himself, if the
offerings are not laid out gracefully, if no one knows or cares about
the mantras, then it is farce.
In my experience here in Melbourne, I must say that the Puja is done
as well as possible, given the too obvious limitations. The priest and
his helpers know their business, and the people obviously take the
prayers seriously. Or at least as seriously as they do in India.
It is by no means the real thing which we miss so
badly, but definitely the flavour is there. We would be worse off
without it. It is also very profitable from the organising
committee's point of view, and does subsidise cultural performances.
Arindam Banerjee
Disclaimer: My opinions do not involve my employer.
Debashis Bhattacharya
Arindam Banerjee <a.ban...@trl.oz.au> wrote:
>Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> wrote:
>
>> My point exactly. So why have this farce called pujo? Just have a get-together.
>> I have seen this in Ann Arbor, and in New Haven, where no pujo was held, but a
>> get together was held after the pujo (bijoya upolokshe), and it was very nice
>> in both place. There was great food, and nice performances -- a good community
>> spirit, overall. Why spoil all that with a farce in the name of durga pujo?
>>
>Pujo is related to religion, and religion according to Durkheim is useful
>because it creates unity among groups with some shared values.
No disagreement there, provided pujo/religion is valued by the group that it is
supposed by to uniting. By-and-large, I see that in USA, it is not. People do
not know, and do not care to know, about either the religion or the pujo. In
this case, it becomes only a "hangover" from their past, which they somehow
cling to, without really meaning to.
This kind of blind, not very strong, clinging to the past, without knowing what
they are doing, and why they are doing it, does more harm than good, IMHO.
>So while people will come for great food and nice performances, they
>may remember more important appointments. Such food and performances
>may be had anytime - but Puja comes only once a year (though maybe
>a few more times in the US context.)
And that's why, this particular get together happens only once a year, to
commemorate the pujo. However, that does not still necessitate the pujo itself.
>As for the farce. Yes if no one is interested in the Puja proper then
>it becomes a farce. If the priest does not prepare himself, if the
>offerings are not laid out gracefully, if no one knows or cares about
>the mantras, then it is farce.
That is precisely what happens here. I have been to pujos in NY, NJ, and CT. I
have avoided pujo(s) in Dallas on account of extreme politicization of the
whole process, leading to unimginably ugly name calling, and even court battles
(yes, that's right) between the warring factions. I find that disgusting, and
have decided to avoid this entire business of Pujo (for that matter, majority
of the Bengali community too, since I just find such attitudes revolting) in
Dallas, altogether.
Even in places like NY and NJ, where thousands of people attend the durga pujo,
perhaps 1-5% of the attendees have a decent idea of what pujo is, why pujo is,
etc. Perhaps another 10% have a vague idea of the same. The rest don't give a
damn --- they just line up for the anjali, when announced, and much more
eagerly from the prosad and bhog! It is a farce. There is no doubt about it.
>In my experience here in Melbourne, I must say that the Puja is done
>as well as possible, given the too obvious limitations. The priest and
>his helpers know their business, and the people obviously take the
>prayers seriously. Or at least as seriously as they do in India.
I guess Melbourne is different.
>It is by no means the real thing which we miss so
>badly, but definitely the flavour is there. We would be worse off
>without it. It is also very profitable from the organising
>committee's point of view, and does subsidise cultural performances.
Well, that's a business issue, and has nothing to do with religion. Since the
basic premise is that we need religion to give us a "common ground", this does
not qualify.
>
>Arindam Banerjee
>Disclaimer: My opinions do not involve my employer.
Debashis.
N. Tiwari
Debashis Bhattacharya (bhattach) wrote:
: joyd...@rcf.usc.edu (Joydeep Bhattacharya) wrote:
: >Why is it that Bengalis in the US celebrate Durga Puja on weekends even when the actual dates for the
: >Puja are otherwise? Why can't they claim the 4 days of the Pujas as "religious holidays" just as Jews
: >days of the year as religious holidays (without incurring the wrath of their employers!). Therefore, is it not
: >possible for Bengalis to do the same?
: Thank you Joydeep, for raising this question which I have raised in person with
: numerous Bengalis in US, and I believe I also raised publicly sometime last
: year.
: The response, almost always, has been: "who will come on weekdays?" Of course,
: I can imagine a spineless Bengali cowering in front of his boss, who says "how
: dare you celebrate your religion?" Or maybe, the same Bengali saying to himself
: "why waste my vacation days on Durga puja? Why can't they have it on a weekend,
: so that I do not need to waste my vacation days?"
: In any case, all of the excuses are pathetic. The bottom line is, we, Bengali
: Hindus in US (and elsewhere too), are simply too cowardly and disinterested to
: own up our religious values. To us, Durga puja is merely a get-together, and of
: course, get-togethers can happen on "our chosen day".
True to quite a bit of extent. Have a vote on scb about the religioisity
of VijayaDashami, and a lot of the scb folks will express interest in
the "cultural" part of the celeberation. So, wine, dine, dance, and
have fun. That is the "culture" of Vijayadashami. The apathy towards
spiritualism and religion (aka Hinduism) amongst the post 1947 WB educated
elite is astounding, amazing and painful.
: I, on my part, normally do not go to any Durga puja (at least not during the
: puja itself, which I consider to be a JOKE, when it is held according to the
: convenience of the organizers). I do often participate in the social gathering
: (and the thing they call "cultural program", although "culture" is usually
: missing from that program) that follows in the evening -- at least some
: familiar faces, a familiar language, and maybe a few familiar songs etc. as
: bonus.
Once again, I totally concur. That is not only specific to "puja" but to
the entire spectrum of all things Indian and Hindu. From independence day
to Diwali to Puja, everything happens in this land of freedom on the
weekend. That is nothing but a reflection of the bankruptcy of our cultural elite.
: In a way, many of us are. Some others are not ashamed, but too busy trying to
: "be assimilated" into the US society. However, by-and-large, we just lack any
: pride in our heritage! The rest of your post merely points out the difference
: between Bengalis, and races that are proud of their heritage.
The same generalizations could be very easily extended to other desi groups
too.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Sugato Bhattacharyya
In article <54g8nt$3...@cauldron.spdc.ti.com>, Debashis Bhattacharya
<bhattach> wrote:
>majar byapar-ta ei, je anek somoi ekhane pujo hoi debipaksha paar hoye jawar
>pare -- kintu purohit takho-o montro auRe jaan je "... pakshyer sashthi-te aami
>durga-ke awbhan korchhi ... "!! What a joke! anonto din-kshon gulo to thik bala
>jete paarto!
Eta thik kotha bote. Keno purohit annyo diner reference neyna, ta jani na.
Hoyto er karon je beshirbhag purohit shudhu montro porte jane, kintu
bujhte pare na.
>
>aapni tarker khatire ekta bhalo point tulechhen bote, kintu amar dharona appnio
>manben je USA-te durga pujo jara organize kore, by-and-large, they do not give
>a damn for the pujo itself, nor do they know (by-and-large, there may be few
>exceptions) much about the pujo itself.
Kintu eta ki USA bashinda bangaliri shudhu characteristic? Kolkatar kojon
bangali pujor organizerra ei test pass korben bolun to.
amar proshno-ta ei, je jekhane pujo ta
>gouno, sekhane adou ei bhaRong kara keno? murti na bosie, kichhu meaningless
>sanskrito mantro (jeta 99%+ attendees bojhe na, ebong care kore na) na auRiye,
>sudhu "durga pujo upolokshye" ekta social get-together kora hoi na keno? after
>all, setai to asol lakshyo, USA-te, noi ki?
eta kintu Kolkatar baroari pujor khetreo prajojyo.
>
>Hindu dharme kothao bhaRong-baji (jeta chale ekhane, pujor name) ke glorify
>korechhe, emon-o to mone paRe na -- jodio amar Hindu dharmer knowledge tamon
>beshi noi, ebong jodi bhul shudhre dyan, to badhito habo.
badhito korbar khub icche thaka shotteo parlamna ei iccha puron korte. :-)
>
>That's the difference between "commitment", which earns you flexibility in
>Hindudharma, and "bhaRaong-baji" which has no place in any dharma.
Thik kathai. Kintu aapni duto alada topic gulie phelchen:
1 Keno loke pujo kore jodio dharmer byapare tara khub ekta kichu care
koren na shotteo
2. Weekende keno pujo hoy.
Amar boktobbo holo je dwitiota byapar noy - jodi bhokti ityadi thake, tobe
nijer shubhide moto pujo korte kono khoti nei. Prothomta shommondhe aamar
mixed feelings. Nije conventional sense-e dharmik noi. Tobe pujota dekhi
kichu nostalgia shohokare primarily social byapar hishebe. Bochore ekbar
adday nahok ekta protima thaklo. Aami tate khoti dekhi na. Bujhi
annyoloker annyo mat thakte paare ei byapare. Kintu tradition bole je
annually notun jutor jonyo protimar presence thaka chai. :-)
>
>>
>>--
>>Sugato Bhattacharyya
>
>
>
>Debashis.
--
Sugato Bhattacharyya
Apratim Sarkar
nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N. Tiwari) writes:
>The apathy towards
>spiritualism and religion (aka Hinduism) amongst the post 1947 WB educated
>elite is astounding, amazing and painful.
Khub byatha, Nachiketa?
>--
>Nachiketa Tiwari
Arnab Gupta
Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> wrote:
..[deleted]..
>No disagreement there, provided pujo/religion is valued by the group that it is
>supposed by to uniting. By-and-large, I see that in USA, it is not. People do
>not know, and do not care to know, about either the religion or the pujo. In
>this case, it becomes only a "hangover" from their past, which they somehow
>cling to, without really meaning to.
>
>This kind of blind, not very strong, clinging to the past, without knowing what
>they are doing, and why they are doing it, does more harm than good, IMHO.
>
Why is this `blind' ? Majority of the Bengalis (both here and back in
Bengal) take pujo as a social event. What's wrong with that? And how
exactly will this do `more harm than good' ?
>>So while people will come for great food and nice performances, they
>>may remember more important appointments. Such food and performances
>>may be had anytime - but Puja comes only once a year (though maybe
>>a few more times in the US context.)
>
>And that's why, this particular get together happens only once a year, to
>commemorate the pujo. However, that does not still necessitate the pujo itself.
>
So what's the problem ? Rituals are very much present in every aspect
of our life. Unless they affect the society negatively, I see no reason
why we should worry about these!
>>As for the farce. Yes if no one is interested in the Puja proper then
>>it becomes a farce. If the priest does not prepare himself, if the
>>offerings are not laid out gracefully, if no one knows or cares about
>>the mantras, then it is farce.
>
>That is precisely what happens here. I have been to pujos in NY, NJ, and CT. I
>have avoided pujo(s) in Dallas on account of extreme politicization of the
>whole process, leading to unimginably ugly name calling, and even court battles
>(yes, that's right) between the warring factions. I find that disgusting, and
>have decided to avoid this entire business of Pujo (for that matter, majority
>of the Bengali community too, since I just find such attitudes revolting) in
>Dallas, altogether.
>
Coming from you, this sermonizing seems a bit ironical, Debashishbabu.
Shamanyo bhashar bhul `point out' kortey giye jara khNocha deoa chhaDa
kotha shuru kortey paarena, shei Bangali je boroshoro byaparey `extreme
politicization' ar `unimaginably ugly name calling' -e joriye porbe tatey
ar ashchorjo ki ?
Arnab.
Kalpataru Barman
Debashis Bhattacharya wrote:
> No disagreement there, provided pujo/religion is valued by the group
> that it is supposed by to uniting. By-and-large, I see that in USA,
> it is not.
Bangali ebang Unity niye aanek galpo aachhey.
Shankar kothai ekta likhechhilen :
Bangali ekai ekso , udaharon, anek, Rammohan, Vidyasagar, Rabindranath,
Vivekananda, Netaji........kintu, ekso Bangali aar ek holo naa.
Sharmila Mukherjee
Sugato Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> In article <54g8nt$3...@cauldron.spdc.ti.com>, Debashis Bhattacharya
> <bhattach> wrote:
>
> >majar byapar-ta ei, je anek somoi ekhane pujo hoi debipaksha paar hoye jawar
> >pare -- kintu purohit takho-o montro auRe jaan je "... pakshyer sashthi-te aami
> >durga-ke awbhan korchhi ... "!! What a joke! anonto din-kshon gulo to thik bala
> >jete paarto!
>
> Eta thik kotha bote. Keno purohit annyo diner reference neyna, ta jani na.
> Hoyto er karon je beshirbhag purohit shudhu montro porte jane, kintu
> bujhte pare na.
E khaane aamar ekti ghotona bolar aache, jeta shotti-ee haashyokor. Ai
niye teen baar Houston-er pujo dekhlaam ebong protyekbaar-ee shei ayk-ee
purohit. Bhodrolok prothombaar onjoli-r montro poDar thekei mike-e bolte
shuru koren `dekhun, aami kintu shokaal theke _jol_ porjyonto khaini,
aapnara daya kore taDataDi onjoli diye din, aami du-baarer beshi montro
bolbo na'. Jothariti montro onaake at least pNaachbaar poDte holo, kintu
uni protyekbaar amader baar baar kore mone koriye dilen je uni _jol
porjyonto_ khaanni, bhishooon koshte aachen. Byaparta proti bochhor-ee
ghote ebong e bochor haashir theke biroktir-ee beshi udrek holo.
Sharmila
> >
> >Debashis.
>
> --
> Sugato Bhattacharyya
Sugato Bhattacharyya
In article <54o9q3$o...@news.iastate.edu>, pra...@iastate.edu (Prantik
Mazumder) wrote:
>
> Durga-o Sanskrito montro bujhtey paDe na..tai kichu eshey jai
> na kobey nemontonnyo kora hochchey!!
>
Unar shonge aapnar porichoy aache bujhi? Ektu aamar proti koruna dekhate
bole dire paren? Je bhasha bojhen she bhashate bollei hobe.
--
Sugato Bhattacharyya
Debashis Bhattacharya
Kalpataru Barman <ka...@fyiowa.infi.net> wrote:
>Debashis Bhattacharya wrote:
.. deleted ...
>
>Bangali ebang Unity niye aanek galpo aachhey.
>Shankar kothai ekta likhechhilen :
>Bangali ekai ekso , udaharon, anek, Rammohan, Vidyasagar, Rabindranath,
>Vivekananda, Netaji........kintu, ekso Bangali aar ek holo naa.
fully agreed. jabab nei!
Debashis.
Arnab Gupta
Debashis Bhattacharya wrote:
>>
>> Kolkata'i lok'e bangla tarikh'i generally jhik kore bolte parbe na
>> jigesh korle, tithi-nakkhotro to dure thakuk. Kintu era shabai maha
>> utsahe Durga Pujo'i participate kare. Mantra na bujhei bhul uchcharane
>> anjali dei.
>
>ekhane apni kolkata (ebong WB-r) lok-ke nijer chokher colored filter diye
>dekhchhen. perhaps apni je stratum of society theke eshechhen, sei statum-e keu
>bolte parbe na. that's nothing new. ebong tara sabai je khub maha utsahe Durga
>pujoi participate karen, tao noi: anekei pujo-i anyo kothao beRate jaan, ba
>club-e giye furti-farta karen, ba anyo kichhu niye byasto thaken. eta manbo je
>anekei, jara pujor "p"-o bojhe na, tara jathesto utsaho niyei pujo-i jog dei.
>
>At the same time, unlike USA, sei sab "p"-na-bojha manushera konobhabei decide
>kore na pujo kakhon habe, kothai habe. pujo-ta jathesto tradition menei hoi,
>ebong sabai tate jogdaan koren. taate to amar bindu-matro apotti nei. Hok na,
>USA-r sab Durga pujo tradition mene, sathik dine, ebong asuk taate sabi, je
>religious, je non-religious, je anti-religious seo. kintu ei non-religious
>ebong anti-religious lokera jodi pujo-r byabosthapanai dadagiri falate thake,
>as they normally do in USA, takhon I have a big problem.
>
>Do you understand the fallacy of your logic? I hope you do, since its a major
>major logical fallacy that is commonly -- much too commonly -- used to justify
>the garbage that goes on in the name of pujo in USA.
>
Bhalo bollen botey! Apratim-er `personal experience' counter korlen
nijer `personal example' diye. Ta er porey ki ? Amra aykta vote nebo
ei forum-e kotojoner `personal experience' kondikey jai ? Ami to ei
niye dubaar pujo dekhlam USA-te, dubaar-i dudhoroneri lok dekhechhi,
ei niye je khub karor mathabyatha ta to kokhono mone hoini!!!
Ta ebarey ektu `ei hoy oi hoy' na korey porishkaar bolun na Apratim-er
kothai `logical fallacy'ta kothai.
>
>>
>> Dhunuchi nach ki bishorjon'r bandparty ki oshtami'r rattire prem-
>> freme eshab'i amar chena Kolkata'r Durga pujo'r tradition'r modhye
>> paRe. Mike'e Hindi/Bangla gaan, pandel'e choti hariye jaowa. Cinema.
>> Ashtami'te khichuRi, nabami'te pNatha'r mangsho. Bijaya'i mishtimukh.
>>
>
>Hoito apnar tradition-er modhye poRe. jara actually pujo byabasthapanai thaken,
>tNader tradition-e anyo kichhu poRe. apni thakun na apnar tradition niye, ta
>niye ki ami ekbar-o apotti korechhi? korun pandel, bajan Hindi/Bangla gaan,
>nachun dhunuchi nach, proti ostomi-r rattire tinte kore prem korun jodi paren
>to! Khawadawa korun khub nisthabhare. pujor anusthan-take niye -- jeta-te apnar
>kono interest nei -- tanatani nai ba korlen. ota jader tradition, tader hatei
>chheRe din.
>
ke atkachhe ? Apratim erokom bolechhe naki ?
>In fact Joydeep-er proshno-ta to exactly sei katha niyei, je keno amra pujo ta
>kori ichhemoto weekend-e. amar nijer mone hoi, just ekta ghar bhaRa niye,
>khanik gan-tan bajiye, dhup-dhuno jaliye, kichuRi-tichuRi server korlei hoi.
>taate, apnar kachhe "pujo" bolte ja bojhai tar sab-tai bajai thakbe, kintu amar
>kachhe pujo bolte ja bojhai tar abomanona-o habe na.
>
Joydeep-er lekhatar shonge aykmot na holeo eta nishchoi boltey paari je
otey aykta sharbostu chhilo. Apnar boktobyo-ta to aykhono porishkaari
holo na. Apnaar motey USA-te pujo tuley dilei hoy, karon, apnaar mone
hoy eta jotheshto bhoktibhorey kora hoi na. Kintu kyano ? Manush to
nijer proyojonei shamajik achar onushthan korey. Jotokhhon na tatey
kono khoti hochhey, apnaar apottir jaigata kothai to bujhtey parchhina.
Apnaar proyojon holey bhoktibhabey korun na pujo, ke bNadha diyechhe ?
Kintu bakira kibhabey pujo korbe sheta tader upor chheDe deoatai kamyo
noy ki ?
>ki, pachhondo ei compromise ta? naki, oi murti-ta samne bosiye ektu "ghomta-r
>talai khemta naach" na korte parle pujo bole mone habe na?
>
>
apnaar apotti-r jaigata, Debashisbabu ?
>
>> Shekhane US-probashi Bangali'ra tradition, Sangaskrito mantro'r
>> jathartha proyog etc. niye matha ghamachchhe, this exemplifies, IMHO,
>> that indeed, identity is majorly in problem. As IDG wisely noted,
>> "Identity khatre me hain!"
>
>Not for me! I know exactly what my identity is, what my heritage is, what my
>traditions are, and what I like and what I do not like. Identity jodi karur
>problem-e poRe thake, to apnar moto lokeder, jara na ghar-ka, na ghat-ka.
>ebong, tai niyeo amar bindu matro problem nei, as long as you do not try to
>impose your confused identity on me -- by holding a JOKE of a pujo.
Ke apnaar gharey chapachhe ? Apratim ? O to or nijer moto korey pujo
korey, apnakey to tatey jog diteo bolchhena| Apni bhoktibhorey pujo
korley bNadha debe - aymontao bolechhe ki ? Borong apni sheta korchhen
bolei mone hoi. So who's trying to impose `confused identity' on whom ?
tabe, amar
>kachhe to solution ta sahoj, oi bhandami-r ashore ami jai na. sandhyebelai,
>jakhon gan-tan hoi, takhon jai. gan-ta to aar kono dosh kore ni.
>
Exactly, amio tai kori. `pujo' byaparta (oi onjoli..montro ityadi) amar
bhalo laage na. Tai ogulo jokhon hoi, tokhon jNara bhoktibhabey ta koren
tNader jaiga korey diye ami ketey pori. Apotti achhe ?
Arnab.
Prantik Mazumder
>Sugato Bhattacharyya wrote:
>>
>> In article <54g8nt$3...@cauldron.spdc.ti.com>, Debashis Bhattacharya
>> <bhattach> wrote:
>>
>> >majar byapar-ta ei, je anek somoi ekhane pujo hoi debipaksha paar hoye jawar
>> >pare -- kintu purohit takho-o montro auRe jaan je "... pakshyer sashthi-te aami
>> >durga-ke awbhan korchhi ... "!! What a joke! anonto din-kshon gulo
bala
^^^^
>> >jete paarto!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Eta thik kotha bote. Keno purohit annyo diner reference neyna, ta jani na.
>> Hoyto er karon je beshirbhag purohit shudhu montro porte jane, kintu
>> bujhte pare na.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Durga-o Sanskrito montro bujhtey paDe na..tai kichu eshey jai
na kobey nemontonnyo kora hochchey!!
--
Prantik Mazumder
pra...@iastate.edu
http://www.iastate.edu/~prantik
Siddharth Dasgupta
Talking about purohits at US based Durga pujas, let me relate the
experience of the BASC puja in LA.
The purohit is a faculty member at Cal State Fullerton. He is widely
regarded as quite knowledgeable and learnt the mantras and the rest of
the puja from the Ramakrishna Mission Ashram monks.
The pushpanjali mantra is quite short and it is not very
complicated to follow.
At the Ramakrishna Mission Ashram in Santa Barbara, the puja is
followed according to the time from the panjika.
--
Siddharth Dasgupta (s...@wag.caltech.edu) Phone: (818) 395-2720/2725
Director, Materials & Molecular Simulation Center FAX: (818) 585-0918
139-74, Beckman Institute, CALTECH, Pasadena, CA 91125
http://www.wag.caltech.edu/home-pages/sdg/sdg.html
Debashis Bhattacharya
.. deleted ...
>>antotopokshye Durga pujo ta je weekend-e kara-ta amader heritage noi --- goto
>>dui shotabdi-te, kichhu na hok, bangladeshe (in the greater sense of the word,
>>and not in the political entity sense) kothao weekend dekhe Durga pujo hoi ni.
>>
>>IMHO, that qualifies as heritage --- je Durga pujo ta tithi hishebe hoi,
>>amader subidhemoto noi -- and tradition, as well.
>
> Durga pujo'te ami labRa ar khichuRi khete jai, sheta pelei amar holo.
> Anyway, probashe niyom je nasti, she byapare ki balen?
Point-ta sekhanei, je labRa ar khichuRi to murti ta saamne na bosiye-o khawa
jai. seta-i ami prefer kori.
probase niyom nischoi nasti -- arthat pujo na korleo chale. kintu pujor name
chhelekhela (ja-khusi-tai) kara jai, emon-ta kothao samorthan korechhe bole
to mone hoi na.
>
>>I guess I should modify my statement to read "by-and-large, we just lack any
>>pride in our heritage and traditions".
>
> Amar proshno'ta holo "our heritage"'r definition ebang example niye.
> Pare shomoi hole kindly ektu bolben.
balbo nishchoi, ebong aage boleochhi. proshno-ta hochhe, tumi shunte pabe
ki?
>
> Apnar katha shune mone holo strict adherence to Hindu religio-social
> norm'ke apni Bangali heritage bole chalano'r chesta korchhen. Ekhon
> eke to shab Bangali'ra Hindu noi, dui Hindu Bangali'ra shabai
> practicing Hindu noi, tin practicing HB'ra'o motamuti open-minded
> about strict adherence to tithi-nakkhotro and other religio-social
> norms, amar experience'e.
Small, but important correction: Hindu religio-social norm-ke "Hindu Bangali-r"
heritage bole chalon-r chesta korchhi, karon seta fact. Hindu Bangalirao
Bangali to, naki tara jehetu Hindu tai tara Bangali noi?
Bangalir heritage, as far as I'm concerned, Bangalir jabotio religious
groups-er heritage er union (set union), set intersection noi. atoeb, Hindu
religio-social norm definitely "Bangalir" heritage er ekta masto baRo part.
Question is, ei rakom "obvious" katha -- jeta amar moto sadharn manush bujhte
pare -- apnar moto ekjon intelligent manush-ke bole bojhate hochhe keno? naki
apni kathata bujheo bujhte chan na?
dui, Hindu Bangali-ra je by-and-large "practising Hindu" noi, se bishoye to
kono sandeho nei, ebong ta niye amar antoto kono mathabyatha nei! prashno-ta
amar ei, je ekta "yearly itch"-er moto, ei Sept.-Oct.-Nov. mashe eshe hatat eto
ghata kore "practising Hindu Bangali sajar" dorkar-ta ki? je "practising Hindu
Bangali" noi, se buk chapRe sadambhe sagarjane ghoshona koruk "ami practising
Hindu" noi, for all I care. ta na kore, ekta murti bosiye, seta jar protik
(symbol manen to, naki symbol bole je kichhu achhe tao swikar korben na ekhon?)
taar chuRanto abomanona kore, ebong indirectly, samosto "practising Hindu
Bangalir" abomanona kore, ei "pujo bhaRong" karar darkar ta ki? jodi nanan
dharoner tangential comments na kore ekta direct uttor dyan, question tar, to
badhito habo.
tin, "practising Hindu Bangali"-ra je tithi nokshotro sambondhe khub udaseen,
ekatha apnake ke bollo? jodi ektu reference diye detail-e bujhiye dyan, to baRo
khusi habo. again, oi "probase niyomo nasti"-r motoi byaparta. probas jakhon,
jodi na paro, koro na. kintu karar name chhelekhela keu-i approve karen emon to
jani na.
>
> Kolkata'i lok'e bangla tarikh'i generally jhik kore bolte parbe na
> jigesh korle, tithi-nakkhotro to dure thakuk. Kintu era shabai maha
> utsahe Durga Pujo'i participate kare. Mantra na bujhei bhul uchcharane
> anjali dei.
ekhane apni kolkata (ebong WB-r) lok-ke nijer chokher colored filter diye
dekhchhen. perhaps apni je stratum of society theke eshechhen, sei statum-e keu
bolte parbe na. that's nothing new. ebong tara sabai je khub maha utsahe Durga
pujoi participate karen, tao noi: anekei pujo-i anyo kothao beRate jaan, ba
club-e giye furti-farta karen, ba anyo kichhu niye byasto thaken. eta manbo je
anekei, jara pujor "p"-o bojhe na, tara jathesto utsaho niyei pujo-i jog dei.
At the same time, unlike USA, sei sab "p"-na-bojha manushera konobhabei decide
kore na pujo kakhon habe, kothai habe. pujo-ta jathesto tradition menei hoi,
ebong sabai tate jogdaan koren. taate to amar bindu-matro apotti nei. Hok na,
USA-r sab Durga pujo tradition mene, sathik dine, ebong asuk taate sabi, je
religious, je non-religious, je anti-religious seo. kintu ei non-religious
ebong anti-religious lokera jodi pujo-r byabosthapanai dadagiri falate thake,
as they normally do in USA, takhon I have a big problem.
Do you understand the fallacy of your logic? I hope you do, since its a major
major logical fallacy that is commonly -- much too commonly -- used to justify
the garbage that goes on in the name of pujo in USA.
>
> Dhunuchi nach ki bishorjon'r bandparty ki oshtami'r rattire prem-
> freme eshab'i amar chena Kolkata'r Durga pujo'r tradition'r modhye
> paRe. Mike'e Hindi/Bangla gaan, pandel'e choti hariye jaowa. Cinema.
> Ashtami'te khichuRi, nabami'te pNatha'r mangsho. Bijaya'i mishtimukh.
>
Hoito apnar tradition-er modhye poRe. jara actually pujo byabasthapanai thaken,
tNader tradition-e anyo kichhu poRe. apni thakun na apnar tradition niye, ta
niye ki ami ekbar-o apotti korechhi? korun pandel, bajan Hindi/Bangla gaan,
nachun dhunuchi nach, proti ostomi-r rattire tinte kore prem korun jodi paren
to! Khawadawa korun khub nisthabhare. pujor anusthan-take niye -- jeta-te apnar
kono interest nei -- tanatani nai ba korlen. ota jader tradition, tader hatei
chheRe din.
In fact Joydeep-er proshno-ta to exactly sei katha niyei, je keno amra pujo ta
kori ichhemoto weekend-e. amar nijer mone hoi, just ekta ghar bhaRa niye,
khanik gan-tan bajiye, dhup-dhuno jaliye, kichuRi-tichuRi server korlei hoi.
taate, apnar kachhe "pujo" bolte ja bojhai tar sab-tai bajai thakbe, kintu amar
kachhe pujo bolte ja bojhai tar abomanona-o habe na.
ki, pachhondo ei compromise ta? naki, oi murti-ta samne bosiye ektu "ghomta-r
talai khemta naach" na korte parle pujo bole mone habe na?
> Shekhane US-probashi Bangali'ra tradition, Sangaskrito mantro'r
> jathartha proyog etc. niye matha ghamachchhe, this exemplifies, IMHO,
> that indeed, identity is majorly in problem. As IDG wisely noted,
> "Identity khatre me hain!"
Not for me! I know exactly what my identity is, what my heritage is, what my
traditions are, and what I like and what I do not like. Identity jodi karur
problem-e poRe thake, to apnar moto lokeder, jara na ghar-ka, na ghat-ka.
ebong, tai niyeo amar bindu matro problem nei, as long as you do not try to
impose your confused identity on me -- by holding a JOKE of a pujo. tabe, amar
kachhe to solution ta sahoj, oi bhandami-r ashore ami jai na. sandhyebelai,
jakhon gan-tan hoi, takhon jai. gan-ta to aar kono dosh kore ni.
>
>>ebar santushto, to?
>
> Last post by me in this thread.
Of course. You know the inherent fallacies of your own logic -- aapni je
intelligent se niye to amar konokalei kono sandeho chhilo na, aaj-o nei -- and
hence, do not want to be around when the fallacies are explicitly pointed out.
Good game, and best of luck for future games!
>
>>Debashis.
>
> Apratim.
>
>
>
>--
Debashis.
Debashis Bhattacharya
>>>I wrote:
>>>
>>>>Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> writes:
>>>>
.. deleted ...
> Apratim.
>
>
>
apnar post-er ekta jathajatho uttar diyechhilam, kintu mone hochhe amader
newsserver seta hariye phelechhe. modda katha ei je apnar logic fallacious,
ebong, apparently, apnio seta janen --- tai agebhagei kete poRchhen. je
"non-practising Hindu Bangali-der" niye eto katha, tara jogdan koruk jatokhusi,
tara jeno pujo organize na kare; taholei ami khusi. after all, tara to
"non-practising", tahole pujo organize karar tader kono prayojon nei!
aar, Bangali Hindurao Bangali. atoeb tader heritage ebong tradition to
bangali-r tradition-er ekta masto baRo part: atoeb Bengali Hindu religio-social
practices are a major part of our heritage and tradition. arthat, apnar logic
dhope tNeke na. Sorry!
Debashis.
Debashis Bhattacharya
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <54oh7v$o...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, s...@wag.caltech.edu (Siddharth Dasgupta) says...
>
>Talking about purohits at US based Durga pujas, let me relate the
>experience of the BASC puja in LA.
[...]
I attended the Puja Siddarth Babu is writing about. I have no complaints about the Puja (jodio anjali dewar
pore thakur'er dike eksho mile speed'e phul gulo na chunDte peye mon ta kharap hoye gechilo!; ei Puja te
phool gulo bhodro bhabe ekta plastic er gamlai phelte hoyechilo. Kono maane hoye!)
Cultural program ta dekhe amaar chokkhu chorok-gaach. Der ghonta dhore orokhom chorom overacting
ekta natok'e aami ontoto kono deen dekhini. Director sheshe bollen je natok ti naki 3 shoptahe toiri-kore
daanRd korano hoyeche. Shei tulonai bhaloi bolbo. Mojar byapar ta ei je Kolkataye oti shadharon ekta Puja
badi'te er cheye dher bhalo natok dekhte pawa jai. Kolkata te I suppose talent distribution ta oneik better.
Ekhane proshno swabhabhik bhabei othe: shobaier dwara shob kichu hoina. Ta natok na korlei to hoye?
Naki eta shei "some maternal uncle is better than no maternal uncle" type'er philosophy!
Tarpor ek bhodromohila ke London theke niye asha hoyeche; taNr speciality bangla lokoshongeet. Onar
gola emnitei besh joralo; tar opor du-dukhani mike ekkebare naker dogai. Ore babba; jeno Bhessmolochon
Shorma! Tar paashe, ekta teen feet unchu tabiler opor boshe tobolchi; aar dhare danRiye maracus
bajacchen ek bhodrolok. Aacha jibone kono deen dekhechen; gaan hocche "beesterno dupare, oshonkho
manush'er, haha kar shuneo..."; (Bhupen Hajarika'r oti sombre gaan; oneik ta shei Charulata te "mone koro,
sheshero shedin bhoyonkar type'er gaan!) pecchone bemalum bhodrolok maracus bajiye cholechen! First of
all, bhodrolok jibone kono deen maracus (actually ekta gypsy'der jhum-jhumi!) bajan ni; onar chokh-mukh
dekhe mone hochilo je onake jor kore bajate bola hoyeche. Ki dorkar?! Jini gaan gaichilen tinio besh mojar;
ek bar announce korlen, "ebar ekta bangla adhunik gaan gaibo"; bhalo kotha; oma, poro muhurtei dhorlen
" o sajna, barkha bahar aai..." (aha, ei gaantar bangla version ta amaar khub priyo!). Tarpor tini jokhoni
bolen, ebar ekta bangla gaan dhorbo, audience theke, na na sheki, ebar ekta hindi hauk!!!
Mota taka suggested donation chilo ei Puja ti te; kintu khawa, sref jogghonno. Manghso (tola laga), bhaat
(goley paanKh), porotha (made specially by Gucchi, I suppose!), daal (ek kolshi jwol dhele shei biye baDi'r
last batch'er moto koltani torol ek bostu). Aamer chatni ta was the only saving grace. Needless to say,
khabar'er average temperature, 7 degree C.
Jaak oneik roshikota holo. Iyarki maarchi bote, kintu kotha guli shottyi. Siddharth babu hoito amaar sathe
ei byapare ek mot nao hote paren!
Joydeep
Debashis Bhattacharya
Sharmila Mukherjee <s...@shiva.3dem.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu> wrote:
>Sugato Bhattacharyya wrote:
>>
>> In article <54g8nt$3...@cauldron.spdc.ti.com>, Debashis Bhattacharya
>> <bhattach> wrote:
>>
.. deleted ...
>>
>> Eta thik kotha bote. Keno purohit annyo diner reference neyna, ta jani na.
>> Hoyto er karon je beshirbhag purohit shudhu montro porte jane, kintu
>> bujhte pare na.
>
.. deleted ...
Sugatobabu-r post ta amader newsserver ekhono dekhachhe na, keno jani na. keu
re-post korle khusi habo.
Sharmila-debi-r sange ami ekmot (text-ta delete korte hochhe, karon ta nahole
error message aschhe "more included text than new text!"). jekhane purohit-er
parjyonto kono commitment nei, sekhane pujo-ta birokti-r-i byapar.
>Sharmila
>
>> >
>> >Debashis.
>>
Debashis.
>> --
>> Sugato Bhattacharyya
Apratim Sarkar
Debashisbabu aro likhechhen:
>apnar post-er ekta jathajatho uttar diyechhilam, kintu mone hochhe amader
>newsserver seta hariye phelechhe. modda katha ei je apnar logic fallacious,
>ebong, apparently, apnio seta janen --- tai agebhagei kete poRchhen. je
>"non-practising Hindu Bangali-der" niye eto katha, tara jogdan koruk jatokhusi,
>tara jeno pujo organize na kare; taholei ami khusi. after all, tara to
>"non-practising", tahole pujo organize karar tader kono prayojon nei!
E byapare ja balar to agei bolechhi. Tarao karuk, apni'o korun
na hoi.
>aar, Bangali Hindurao Bangali. atoeb tader heritage ebong tradition to
>bangali-r tradition-er ekta masto baRo part: atoeb Bengali Hindu religio-social
>practices are a major part of our heritage and tradition.
E byapareo, agei bolechhi, kintu ekmatro part noi.
>arthat, apnar logic
>dhope tNeke na. Sorry!
Whatever. :-)
Debashis Bhattacharya
asa...@us.oracle.com (Apratim Sarkar) wrote:
>Debashisbabu'r original post amar site'e asheni. Arnab'r followup theke poRlum:
>
>>Debashis Bhattacharya wrote:
.. deleted (there was a reference to kumichhana) ...
kumichhana-r byaparta-tar uttor pare dite haba, karon ami next tin saptahe
total 18 din travel korchhi, kaaje, (ebong, ekhon ei travel-er prostuti
jachhe).
tabe, ami kumichhana dekhanoi biswas kori na. Just that je heritage-er proshno
ta eto serious byapar, je seta niye-o chhelekhela korte chai na.
ektu sabur korun. sabure mewa fol-leo folte pare.
>
>>>At the same time, unlike USA, sei sab "p"-na-bojha manushera konobhabei decide
>>>kore na pujo kakhon habe, kothai habe. pujo-ta jathesto tradition menei hoi,
>>>ebong sabai tate jogdaan koren. taate to amar bindu-matro apotti nei. Hok na,
>>>USA-r sab Durga pujo tradition mene, sathik dine, ebong asuk taate sabi, je
>>>religious, je non-religious, je anti-religious seo. kintu ei non-religious
>>>ebong anti-religious lokera jodi pujo-r byabosthapanai dadagiri falate thake,
>>>as they normally do in USA, takhon I have a big problem.
>
> Jodi "religious" keu tradition mene Durgapujo korte chai USA'te, ke
> atkachchhe? "Non-anti religious" janogan'r ashubidhe hole tNara
> shetate jaben na. Ebang shei "voting with the feet"'r chaape poRe
> jodi apnar o'i so-called "religious" organizer'ra pujo'r date change
> karen, tader dhorun.
>
> Ar dadagiri'r byapare, apnar deowa data anujayi major percentage of
> US-probashi Bengalis are more interested in weekend Pujos. Tara
> apnake ekbaro correct tithi-nokkhotre pujo korte baron korchhe na,
> kintu perhaps tara shetake patronize korbe na. Ebare apni
> jodi apnar so-called Bengali heritage'r dohai diye tader weekend'r
> pujo tule dite chan, dadagiri'ta ke korchhe?
ami to pujo tule dewar katha ek-bar-o boli ni! ebar, apni barong amar mukhe
katha basachhen!
Joydeep-er prothom mail-er uttor theke ektai katha bolechhi, je, apparently,
USA-te emong sab bangalir bhiR, jader nijeder tradition-er proti kono anugotyo,
but jader tradition niye kono pride nei. ebong, tNara-i, by-and-large, USA-r
pujo gulor control-e -- ta na hole ei "weekend-e pujo"-r rewaj-er aar kono
explanation dewa sambhab noi.
In fact, if you care to check, my conclusion in reply to Joydeep's post was
jatodin na amar keu single-handedly tithi mene pujo-r ritee chalu korte
paarchhi, tatodin, the best we (those who are pained by such arbitrary stuff in
the name of pujo) can do is to not participate in the "pujo itself".
opinion express kara tao je apnar chokhe dadagiri falano, seta jaantam na.
>
> Apnar dadagiri'r complaint valid jodi majority correct tithi-nokkhotre
> pujo chai ebang minority tader shubidher jonyo sheta weekend'e pathiye
> dei. Case'ta ki tai, Debashisbabu?
majority ki chai, setai to keu jani na moshai. USA-te weekend-e pujo-r
byapar-ta ke chalu korechhilo, keno korechhilo, jani na. tabe ekbar jakhon loke
ei "convenience anujaaee pujo"-r swad peyechhe, takhon seta chhaRano ki atoi
sahoj?
aar, more importantly, jibone sab kichhui ki majority diye thik kara jai?
jakhon majority of Americans bolechhilio "slavery is perfectly OK", did that
make slavery OK? jakhon majority of Europeans bolechhilo "colonialism is
perfectly OK", did that make colonialism OK? aaj jodi majority of Americans
bale immigrants-der pujo bandho kore dao, will that make "pujo bandho" OK?
please spare us this kind of fallacious logic.
>
>>>Do you understand the fallacy of your logic? I hope you do, since its a major
>>>major logical fallacy that is commonly -- much too commonly -- used to justify
>>>the garbage that goes on in the name of pujo in USA.
>>>
>
> Apni amar pointa'tai bojhen ni to amar logic ki bujhben? Ami
> jeta bala'r chesta korchhilum sheta hochchhe apnar jeta garbage
> mone hoi shetai hoito anek'r kachhe jathesto traditional. Bengali
> society eto diverse je one-size-fits-all tradition chalena (je
> jonyo apnake example dite bolchhilam apnar Bengali heritage'r
> understanding'r, jate kore counter example dite pari). Apnar baRa
> bhate jakhan keu chhai dichchhe na, apni onyer Bishyudbare
> alabu-bhokkhan niye poRchhen keno mairi!?
aami amar opinion express korechhi, matro. ami karur baRa bhate chhai dewar
adou kono chesta korchhi na.
Bangali society diverse hote pare, kintu, diversity, like freedom, cannot be
equated to "jathechhachar"! I'm sure apnio difference ta bojhen, kintu tarker
khatire ekhon maanben na.
>
> Ebare bujhlen?
sorry, bojahr moto ekhono kichhu khunje pelam na.
>
>>>> Dhunuchi nach ki bishorjon'r bandparty ki oshtami'r rattire prem-
>>>> freme eshab'i amar chena Kolkata'r Durga pujo'r tradition'r modhye
>>>> paRe. Mike'e Hindi/Bangla gaan, pandel'e choti hariye jaowa. Cinema.
>>>> Ashtami'te khichuRi, nabami'te pNatha'r mangsho. Bijaya'i mishtimukh.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Hoito apnar tradition-er modhye poRe.
>
> Precisely. Tate ki Bengali heritage'e aghat diye boshlum?
>
>>>jara actually pujo byabasthapanai thaken,
>>>tNader tradition-e anyo kichhu poRe. apni thakun na apnar tradition niye, ta
>>>niye ki ami ekbar-o apotti korechhi?
>
> Karen ni? Apnar purono post gulo ektu khule poRun.
Please dekhun. ami bolechhi je apnar tradition amar chokhe painful. ekbar-o ki
bolechhi, je Apra-babu-r sathe kono rakom durbyabohar kara hok, tNar ei
tradition-er jonye? Please, give me a break!
>
> DNaRan apni to abar thik bujhte parben na ami ki bolchhi. Nijer post
> poReo na, tai ami apnake help kori ashun. Dekhun amar kachhe tithi-
> nakkhotro important noi, kintu (dhorun) anjali'ta important. Ebare
> dhorun amar pokkhe weekedays'e pujo asha impossible (je kono karoneri
> hok na keno), kintu weekend'e hole ami ashbo, anjali debo, diye
> anondo pabo. Shetai amar tradition. Apni weekdays'e pujo karar
> tradition niye achhen (dhorun) tate amar kichhu bala'r nei. Kintu ebare
> apni halumfiye "Weekend'e pujo kara, cholbe na, cholbe na!" slogan
> tulle amar tradition'r problem holo ki na? Ami kintu apnar tradition'r
> pechhone absolutely kathi korte jai ni.
kintu ami to kothao "halumfiye weekend-e pujo kara, cholbe na, cholbe na" boli
ni. bolechhi "weekend-e pujo amar chokhe garbage, garbage!" "jara weekend-e
pujo kore, tara, amar chokhe, bangali-r tradition bojhe na, bojhe na!" duto-r
modhye difference-ta bojha to eto kichhu difficult byapar noi!
aami ki aar amar matamot-o prokash korte paarbo na naki, SCB-te? bhari adbhut
to! ekhon theke ki byaktigoto matamot-o "majority vote" niye sthir korte habe
naki?
>
>>>korun pandel, bajan Hindi/Bangla gaan,
>>>nachun dhunuchi nach, proti ostomi-r rattire tinte kore prem korun jodi paren
>>>to!
>
> :-) Apni mairi chelemanusher moto chote gechhen!
chote jaini ektukuo. tinte prem jodi ek rattire korte paren, tin premika-ke
eksathe chotiye na diye, to bolbo apni gurudeb manush!
>
>>>Khawadawa korun khub nisthabhare. pujor anusthan-take niye -- jeta-te apnar
>>>kono interest nei -- tanatani nai ba korlen. ota jader tradition, tader hatei
>>>chheRe din.
>>>
>>
>>ke atkachhe ? Apratim erokom bolechhe naki ?
>
> Ditto, to what Arnab said.
>
>>>In fact Joydeep-er proshno-ta to exactly sei katha niyei, je keno amra pujo ta
>>>kori ichhemoto weekend-e. amar nijer mone hoi, just ekta ghar bhaRa niye,
>>>khanik gan-tan bajiye, dhup-dhuno jaliye, kichuRi-tichuRi server korlei hoi.
>>>taate, apnar kachhe "pujo" bolte ja bojhai tar sab-tai bajai thakbe, kintu amar
>>>kachhe pujo bolte ja bojhai tar abomanona-o habe na.
>
> Ebare apni je katha'ta bolechhen sheta'r kichhu daam achhe, mante habe.
> Amar tradition rakhte giye ami jeno onyer tradition'r abomanona na kori,
> etai to? Good point. Kintu shei point approach korte gele, Debashsibabu,
> apnake _Hindu religious heritage_ theke ashte habe. Bengali socio-
> cultural heritage theke noi, karan, eta apni perhaps janen, majority
> Bengali'ra Hindu noi, jara Hindu tader ekta substantial percentage
> practicing Hindu noi. Amar mejaj'ta kharap hoyechhilo apni Hindu
> religious norm'ke Bengali social norm bole chalano'r cheshta korchhilen
> dekhe. (Nachiketa'r shange jambe bhalo, ki balen?)
again, sorry, mante parlam na. apni je "bangali heritage" aar "hindu heritage"
-er distinctionta korchhen, seta, agei bolechhi, amar kachhe arthoheen. hindu
heritgate bangali heritage-er ekta angsho, baRo angsho. amar kachhe, bangali-r
heritage, bangalir samasto bhager heritage-er set union. clearly, apnar mat
ebyapare alada.
ebong, ei katha ta, je why not have a get together on the occassion of pujo,
without making a joke out of the pujo itself, aage bohubar bolechhi. keno sei
post-gulo aapni dekhen-ni, jani na.
>
> Apni Bengali heritage katiye diye Hindu religious heritage'e chole jaan,
> amaro mukh bandho hoye jabe. Kintu Bengali heritage'e chhupiye Hindu
> religious heritage dhokano'r cheshta korben na please.
keno jete jabo? Hindu heritage ki bangali heritage-er part noi?
amar-o mejaj kharap hochhe, ei ektai karone. bangali hote gele ki Hindu howa
chhaRte hochhe naki, aajkal? bangali-r heritage-e hindu heritage-er role
anek-khani. tai bole ki ami kono muslim, chrisitian, brahmo ki bouddho
bangali-ke bolchhi tader heritage ta bangali heritage-er part noi? kakkhono na!
ami amar bakthobyo prokash korechhi "bangalir durga pujo"-r poriprekshi-te,
jetar songe "bangali hindu-r heritage" angangi-bhabe joRito.
lukono churono amar swabhab noi. barong aapni ekhon ekta
"bangali-non-practising-hindu" heritage, chupisaRe samosto bangalir ghaRe
chalanor chesta korchhen, emon katha bolleo bodhoi atyukti hoi na!
>
>>>ki, pachhondo ei compromise ta? naki, oi murti-ta samne bosiye ektu "ghomta-r
>>>talai khemta naach" na korte parle pujo bole mone habe na?
>
> Amar counter-offer'ta kemon laglo?
>
>>>> Shekhane US-probashi Bangali'ra tradition, Sangaskrito mantro'r
>>>> jathartha proyog etc. niye matha ghamachchhe, this exemplifies, IMHO,
>>>> that indeed, identity is majorly in problem. As IDG wisely noted,
>>>> "Identity khatre me hain!"
>>>
>>>Not for me! I know exactly what my identity is, what my heritage is, what my
>>>traditions are, and what I like and what I do not like. Identity jodi karur
>>>problem-e poRe thake, to apnar moto lokeder, jara na ghar-ka, na ghat-ka.
>>>ebong, tai niyeo amar bindu matro problem nei, as long as you do not try to
>>>impose your confused identity on me -- by holding a JOKE of a pujo.
>>
>>Ke apnaar gharey chapachhe ? Apratim ? O to or nijer moto korey pujo
>>korey, apnakey to tatey jog diteo bolchhena| Apni bhoktibhorey pujo
>>korley bNadha debe - aymontao bolechhe ki ? Borong apni sheta korchhen
>>bolei mone hoi. So who's trying to impose `confused identity' on whom ?
>
> Abar, ami ja bolte chai Arnab sheta agei bole diyechhe.
>
by the very fact that you (don't mean you personally, but you as those who are
organizing these JOKEs in the name pujo) make mockery out of the pujo, you
insult a part of what I consider to be my heritage.
byapar-ta shuorer rakto niye muslim-er baRir samne chhoriye asha, ba "mother
mary having an intimate relationship with a man" er chhobi ekta christian-ke
dekhanor moto hoye gelo na ki? aar ami jodi tai niye birokti ba apotti prokash
kori, to seta holo "chapano"? Wow!
I guess you will now re-define a lot of concepts for me.
>>
>> tabe, amar
>>>kachhe to solution ta sahoj, oi bhandami-r ashore ami jai na. sandhyebelai,
>>>jakhon gan-tan hoi, takhon jai. gan-ta to aar kono dosh kore ni.
>
> Tabe apnar eto problem keno Debashisbabu?
goRar katha-tai to bojhe ni dekhchhi. SCB-te ami amar matamot prokash korechhi.
apni barong barbar claim korechhen je ami naki "hindu heritage" take "bangalir
ekmatro heritage" bole chalanor chesta korechhi, jeta ami gyanoto ebong
agyanoto, ekbar-o kori ni (amar posts gulo ekhon-o achhe, poRe dekha sahoj).
bar
bar bolechhi je hindu heritage ta amar (ebong jara pujoi ashe, tader aneker)
heritage, ebong bangali heritage-er baRo angsho. jara weekend-e pujo korchhe,
tara sei heritage ta bojhe na, jane na, ba tai niye kono pride feel kore na.
eta amar byaktigoto matamot, ebong ami seta express korechhi. ekhono seta karar
odhikar amar achhe bolei amar dharona.
>
> Apratim.
>
>
>
>
Debashis.
Sharmila Mukherjee
Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>
> In article <54oh7v$o...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, s...@wag.caltech.edu (Siddharth Dasgupta) says...
> >
> >Talking about purohits at US based Durga pujas, let me relate the
> >experience of the BASC puja in LA.
>
> [...]
>
> I attended the Puja Siddarth Babu is writing about.
[..]
Joydeepbabu, aapnar lekhata poDe khub moja laaglo, dhonnyobaad.
Sharmila
Apratim Sarkar
Altavista theke Debashsibabu'r baki post'ta udhdhar kara gechhe:
>asa...@us.oracle.com (Apratim Sarkar) wrote:
>>Debashis Bhattacharya writes:
>>
>
>.. deleted ...
>
>>>antotopokshye Durga pujo ta je weekend-e kara-ta amader heritage noi --- goto
>>>dui shotabdi-te, kichhu na hok, bangladeshe (in the greater sense of the word,
>>>and not in the political entity sense) kothao weekend dekhe Durga pujo hoi ni.
>>>
>>>IMHO, that qualifies as heritage --- je Durga pujo ta tithi hishebe hoi,
>>>amader subidhemoto noi -- and tradition, as well.
>>
>> Durga pujo'te ami labRa ar khichuRi khete jai, sheta pelei amar holo.
>> Anyway, probashe niyom je nasti, she byapare ki balen?
>
>Point-ta sekhanei, je labRa ar khichuRi to murti ta saamne na bosiye-o khawa
>jai.
DP'r shomoye psychologically khete aro bhalo lage. Social conditioning.
>seta-i ami prefer kori.
Korun. Amar kono apotti nei. Patta na dite pari, kintu apotti at
least nei, apanar preference apnar. Kintu ager post'e apni Bengali
heritage niye kishab bolechhilen. Apnar preference ar Bengali
heritage ki synonymous, Debashisbabu?
>probase niyom nischoi nasti -- arthat pujo na korleo chale. kintu pujor name
>chhelekhela (ja-khusi-tai) kara jai, emon-ta kothao samorthan korechhe bole
>to mone hoi na.
Again, Debashisbabu, eti jodi just apnar subjective interpretation
hoi, bolun, patta na diye katiye debo. Ager bar kishab Bengali
heritage na ki bollen bole eto katha. Bengali heritage anujayi probashe
niyom nashti mane thik ki?
>>>I guess I should modify my statement to read "by-and-large, we just lack any
>>>pride in our heritage and traditions".
>>
>> Amar proshno'ta holo "our heritage"'r definition ebang example niye.
>> Pare shomoi hole kindly ektu bolben.
>
>balbo nishchoi, ebong aage boleochhi. proshno-ta hochhe, tumi shunte pabe
>ki?
Ami kintu Sky'r bhai noi, Debashisbabu.
>> Apnar katha shune mone holo strict adherence to Hindu religio-social
>> norm'ke apni Bangali heritage bole chalano'r chesta korchhen. Ekhon
>> eke to shab Bangali'ra Hindu noi, dui Hindu Bangali'ra shabai
>> practicing Hindu noi, tin practicing HB'ra'o motamuti open-minded
>> about strict adherence to tithi-nakkhotro and other religio-social
>> norms, amar experience'e.
>Small, but important correction: Hindu religio-social norm-ke "Hindu Bangali-r"
>heritage bole chalon-r chesta korchhi, karon seta fact.
Ager bar kintu apni Hindu shabdo'ti baad diye giyechhilen. Apnar
correction'r par ar amar kichhu bala'r nei.
>Hindu Bangalirao
>Bangali to, naki tara jehetu Hindu tai tara Bangali noi?
Of course tara Hindu, kintu tader tradition'ta necessarily Bengali
tradition'r ekmatro flavor noi. IMHO.
>Bangalir heritage, as far as I'm concerned, Bangalir jabotio religious
Ebang non-religious.
>groups-er heritage er union (set union), set intersection noi. atoeb, Hindu
>religio-social norm definitely "Bangalir" heritage er ekta masto baRo part.
Masto baro kina, sheta ekdam subjective, at least till we get hold
of some neutral social analysis. Ta jakhan nei, o niye ami ar bhatabo
na. Anyway, ekmatro part noi. Sutarang ta follow kara na hole
tate Bengali tradition _as a whole_ follow kara holo ki holo na
she byapre kichhui bala jai na, karan onyo ekti subset'r tradition
(dhorun ami jader example diyechhi) hoito follow kara holo.
>Question is, ei rakom "obvious" katha -- jeta amar moto sadharn manush bujhte
>pare -- apnar moto ekjon intelligent manush-ke bole bojhate hochhe keno? naki
>apni kathata bujheo bujhte chan na?
Amar to mone hoi apnar definition'r shange'i barang apnar analysis
milchhe na. Union bole je open-minded Bengali heritage define korchhen,
tar shange apnar ager crib'ti, applicable only in the context of
practising Hindu Bengalis, ekdam melate parchhi na.
>dui, Hindu Bangali-ra je by-and-large "practising Hindu" noi, se bishoye to
>kono sandeho nei, ebong ta niye amar antoto kono mathabyatha nei! prashno-ta
>amar ei, je ekta "yearly itch"-er moto, ei Sept.-Oct.-Nov. mashe eshe hatat eto
>ghata kore "practising Hindu Bangali sajar" dorkar-ta ki?
Practicing Hindu noi Debashisbabu, Durga pujo'ta'ke era social
gathering bole nen. Pujo'ta icon matro. Pujo upolokkhe social
gathering.
>je "practising Hindu
>Bangali" noi, se buk chapRe sadambhe sagarjane ghoshona koruk "ami practising
>Hindu" noi, for all I care. ta na kore, ekta murti bosiye, seta jar protik
>(symbol manen to, naki symbol bole je kichhu achhe tao swikar korben na ekhon?)
>taar chuRanto abomanona kore,
E'i ekta jaigai ami apnar shange ekmat je perhaps Hindu religious
(and therefore Bengali Hindu religious, but not Bengali as such)
sentiment'e aghat deowa hochchhe. Apni ta niye katha bolte chaile
ami kichhu bolbo na. Kintu apni shuru korechhilen _Bengali_ heritage
niye. Jehetu apni ekhon Bengali Hindu'der opor focus korchhen, korun,
ami kichhu bolbo na, karan shekhane debate'ta'i alada. Shekhane
Bengali heritage niye kono proshno'i uthchhe na, Bengali heritage'r
je part'tuku hindu heritage theke ashchhe, tarko ta niye, ebang o'i
domain'e amar absolute kono interest nei (jatokkhon na shetake global
Bengali heritage bole chalabar chesta hochchhe).
>ebong indirectly, samosto "practising Hindu
>Bangalir" abomanona kore, ei "pujo bhaRong" karar darkar ta ki? jodi nanan
>dharoner tangential comments na kore ekta direct uttor dyan, question tar, to
>badhito habo.
Khushi?
>tin, "practising Hindu Bangali"-ra je tithi nokshotro sambondhe khub udaseen,
>ekatha apnake ke bollo?
Amar personal experience. Amar baba-ma, mashi-mesho. Amar jabotiyo
school-college'r bondhu.
>jodi ektu reference diye detail-e bujhiye dyan, to baRo
>khusi habo.
Social study achhe kina, jani na. Apnar haate counter subjective data
thaktei pare, apni nijei achhen, ta niye ami takko korbo na. Study
pele janaben.
>again, oi "probase niyomo nasti"-r motoi byaparta. probas jakhon,
>jodi na paro, koro na. kintu karar name chhelekhela keu-i approve karen emon to
>jani na.
Anekrakam interpretation hoi, Debashisbabu. Puro byapar'ta subjective
ekhetre.
>>>ebar santushto, to?
>>
>> Last post by me in this thread.
>
>Of course. You know the inherent fallacies of your own logic -- aapni je
>intelligent se niye to amar konokalei kono sandeho chhilo na, aaj-o nei -- and
>hence, do not want to be around when the fallacies are explicitly pointed out.
>Good game, and best of luck for future games!
You win, Debashisbabu. Seriously. Apni khushi holei ami khushi. Ebare
apni ektu hNashun mairi, agnimurti mone baRo byatha dei.
Ebare jite jakhan gechhen takhan cholun Bengali heritage niye alochana
-ta sesh kore feli. Ki balen? Jodi apnar shomoi thake, that is.
Apratim Sarkar
Debashisbabu'r original post amar site'e asheni. Arnab'r followup theke poRlum:
>Debashis Bhattacharya wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Kolkata'i lok'e bangla tarikh'i generally jhik kore bolte parbe na
>>> jigesh korle, tithi-nakkhotro to dure thakuk. Kintu era shabai maha
>>> utsahe Durga Pujo'i participate kare. Mantra na bujhei bhul uchcharane
>>> anjali dei.
>>
>>ekhane apni kolkata (ebong WB-r) lok-ke nijer chokher colored filter diye
>>dekhchhen.
WB'r katha ami kothai bollam Debashisbabu? Flatu keno amar mukhe
katha bashachchhen? Ar, personal experience niye jakhan katha hochchhe,
takhan apnar-amar dujon'r chokhei colored filter achhe, e niye hathat
halumphiye poRlen keno bolun to? Naki apnar haate kono neutral social
study achhe? Na thakle chepe jaan onyer chokher rang niye katha na
bole. Ar thakle reference chhaRun, poRe dekhi.
>>perhaps apni je stratum of society theke eshechhen, sei statum-e keu
>>bolte parbe na. that's nothing new. ebong tara sabai je khub maha utsahe Durga
>>pujoi participate karen, tao noi: anekei pujo-i anyo kothao beRate jaan, ba
>>club-e giye furti-farta karen, ba anyo kichhu niye byasto thaken. eta manbo je
>>anekei, jara pujor "p"-o bojhe na, tara jathesto utsaho niyei pujo-i jog dei.
Ebang shetai tader "heritage". Question, eder ki apni Bengali bole
mone karen, ebang korle eder heritage'ke ki apni Bengali heritage'r
modhye dhorben? Apni kintu ekhono Bengali heritage byapar'ta kholsha
korlen na Debashisbabu. O'i ekbar kumirchhana dekhiyei je kete
poRechhen ar o mukho hochchhen na. Ki darkar, heritage tule gaal
deowa to hoye gechhe ekhon define-tefine korte bollei shomoi nei.
Paren mairi!
>>At the same time, unlike USA, sei sab "p"-na-bojha manushera konobhabei decide
>>kore na pujo kakhon habe, kothai habe. pujo-ta jathesto tradition menei hoi,
>>ebong sabai tate jogdaan koren. taate to amar bindu-matro apotti nei. Hok na,
>>USA-r sab Durga pujo tradition mene, sathik dine, ebong asuk taate sabi, je
>>religious, je non-religious, je anti-religious seo. kintu ei non-religious
>>ebong anti-religious lokera jodi pujo-r byabosthapanai dadagiri falate thake,
>>as they normally do in USA, takhon I have a big problem.
Jodi "religious" keu tradition mene Durgapujo korte chai USA'te, ke
atkachchhe? "Non-anti religious" janogan'r ashubidhe hole tNara
shetate jaben na. Ebang shei "voting with the feet"'r chaape poRe
jodi apnar o'i so-called "religious" organizer'ra pujo'r date change
karen, tader dhorun.
Ar dadagiri'r byapare, apnar deowa data anujayi major percentage of
US-probashi Bengalis are more interested in weekend Pujos. Tara
apnake ekbaro correct tithi-nokkhotre pujo korte baron korchhe na,
kintu perhaps tara shetake patronize korbe na. Ebare apni
jodi apnar so-called Bengali heritage'r dohai diye tader weekend'r
pujo tule dite chan, dadagiri'ta ke korchhe?
Apnar dadagiri'r complaint valid jodi majority correct tithi-nokkhotre
pujo chai ebang minority tader shubidher jonyo sheta weekend'e pathiye
dei. Case'ta ki tai, Debashisbabu?
>>Do you understand the fallacy of your logic? I hope you do, since its a major
>>major logical fallacy that is commonly -- much too commonly -- used to justify
>>the garbage that goes on in the name of pujo in USA.
>>
Apni amar pointa'tai bojhen ni to amar logic ki bujhben? Ami
jeta bala'r chesta korchhilum sheta hochchhe apnar jeta garbage
mone hoi shetai hoito anek'r kachhe jathesto traditional. Bengali
society eto diverse je one-size-fits-all tradition chalena (je
jonyo apnake example dite bolchhilam apnar Bengali heritage'r
understanding'r, jate kore counter example dite pari). Apnar baRa
bhate jakhan keu chhai dichchhe na, apni onyer Bishyudbare
alabu-bhokkhan niye poRchhen keno mairi!?
Ebare bujhlen?
>>> Dhunuchi nach ki bishorjon'r bandparty ki oshtami'r rattire prem-
>>> freme eshab'i amar chena Kolkata'r Durga pujo'r tradition'r modhye
>>> paRe. Mike'e Hindi/Bangla gaan, pandel'e choti hariye jaowa. Cinema.
>>> Ashtami'te khichuRi, nabami'te pNatha'r mangsho. Bijaya'i mishtimukh.
>>>
>>
>>Hoito apnar tradition-er modhye poRe.
Precisely. Tate ki Bengali heritage'e aghat diye boshlum?
>>jara actually pujo byabasthapanai thaken,
>>tNader tradition-e anyo kichhu poRe. apni thakun na apnar tradition niye, ta
>>niye ki ami ekbar-o apotti korechhi?
Karen ni? Apnar purono post gulo ektu khule poRun.
DNaRan apni to abar thik bujhte parben na ami ki bolchhi. Nijer post
poReo na, tai ami apnake help kori ashun. Dekhun amar kachhe tithi-
nakkhotro important noi, kintu (dhorun) anjali'ta important. Ebare
dhorun amar pokkhe weekedays'e pujo asha impossible (je kono karoneri
hok na keno), kintu weekend'e hole ami ashbo, anjali debo, diye
anondo pabo. Shetai amar tradition. Apni weekdays'e pujo karar
tradition niye achhen (dhorun) tate amar kichhu bala'r nei. Kintu ebare
apni halumfiye "Weekend'e pujo kara, cholbe na, cholbe na!" slogan
tulle amar tradition'r problem holo ki na? Ami kintu apnar tradition'r
pechhone absolutely kathi korte jai ni.
>>korun pandel, bajan Hindi/Bangla gaan,
>>nachun dhunuchi nach, proti ostomi-r rattire tinte kore prem korun jodi paren
>>to!
:-) Apni mairi chelemanusher moto chote gechhen!
>>Khawadawa korun khub nisthabhare. pujor anusthan-take niye -- jeta-te apnar
>>kono interest nei -- tanatani nai ba korlen. ota jader tradition, tader hatei
>>chheRe din.
>>
>
>ke atkachhe ? Apratim erokom bolechhe naki ?
Ditto, to what Arnab said.
>>In fact Joydeep-er proshno-ta to exactly sei katha niyei, je keno amra pujo ta
>>kori ichhemoto weekend-e. amar nijer mone hoi, just ekta ghar bhaRa niye,
>>khanik gan-tan bajiye, dhup-dhuno jaliye, kichuRi-tichuRi server korlei hoi.
>>taate, apnar kachhe "pujo" bolte ja bojhai tar sab-tai bajai thakbe, kintu amar
>>kachhe pujo bolte ja bojhai tar abomanona-o habe na.
Ebare apni je katha'ta bolechhen sheta'r kichhu daam achhe, mante habe.
Amar tradition rakhte giye ami jeno onyer tradition'r abomanona na kori,
etai to? Good point. Kintu shei point approach korte gele, Debashsibabu,
apnake _Hindu religious heritage_ theke ashte habe. Bengali socio-
cultural heritage theke noi, karan, eta apni perhaps janen, majority
Bengali'ra Hindu noi, jara Hindu tader ekta substantial percentage
practicing Hindu noi. Amar mejaj'ta kharap hoyechhilo apni Hindu
religious norm'ke Bengali social norm bole chalano'r cheshta korchhilen
dekhe. (Nachiketa'r shange jambe bhalo, ki balen?)
Apni Bengali heritage katiye diye Hindu religious heritage'e chole jaan,
amaro mukh bandho hoye jabe. Kintu Bengali heritage'e chhupiye Hindu
religious heritage dhokano'r cheshta korben na please.
>>ki, pachhondo ei compromise ta? naki, oi murti-ta samne bosiye ektu "ghomta-r
>>talai khemta naach" na korte parle pujo bole mone habe na?
Amar counter-offer'ta kemon laglo?
>>> Shekhane US-probashi Bangali'ra tradition, Sangaskrito mantro'r
>>> jathartha proyog etc. niye matha ghamachchhe, this exemplifies, IMHO,
>>> that indeed, identity is majorly in problem. As IDG wisely noted,
>>> "Identity khatre me hain!"
>>
>>Not for me! I know exactly what my identity is, what my heritage is, what my
>>traditions are, and what I like and what I do not like. Identity jodi karur
>>problem-e poRe thake, to apnar moto lokeder, jara na ghar-ka, na ghat-ka.
>>ebong, tai niyeo amar bindu matro problem nei, as long as you do not try to
>>impose your confused identity on me -- by holding a JOKE of a pujo.
>
>Ke apnaar gharey chapachhe ? Apratim ? O to or nijer moto korey pujo
>korey, apnakey to tatey jog diteo bolchhena| Apni bhoktibhorey pujo
>korley bNadha debe - aymontao bolechhe ki ? Borong apni sheta korchhen
>bolei mone hoi. So who's trying to impose `confused identity' on whom ?
Abar, ami ja bolte chai Arnab sheta agei bole diyechhe.
>
> tabe, amar
>>kachhe to solution ta sahoj, oi bhandami-r ashore ami jai na. sandhyebelai,
>>jakhon gan-tan hoi, takhon jai. gan-ta to aar kono dosh kore ni.
Tabe apnar eto problem keno Debashisbabu?
Apratim.
Sugato Bhattacharyya
copy pathiye dilam
In article <54g8nt$3...@cauldron.spdc.ti.com>, Debashis Bhattacharya
<bhattach> wrote:
>majar byapar-ta ei, je anek somoi ekhane pujo hoi debipaksha paar hoye jawar
>pare -- kintu purohit takho-o montro auRe jaan je "... pakshyer sashthi-te aami
>durga-ke awbhan korchhi ... "!! What a joke! anonto din-kshon gulo to thik bala
>jete paarto!
Eta thik kotha bote. Keno purohit annyo diner reference neyna, ta jani na.
Hoyto er karon je beshirbhag purohit shudhu montro porte jane, kintu
bujhte pare na.
>
Debashis Bhattacharya
asa...@us.oracle.com (Apratim Sarkar) wrote:
>Altavista theke Debashsibabu'r baki post'ta udhdhar kara gechhe:
>
>>asa...@us.oracle.com (Apratim Sarkar) wrote:
>>>Debashis Bhattacharya writes:
>>>
>>
>>.. deleted ...
>>
.. lots of stuff deleted ....
aapnar sathe (sorry about the slip of "tumi") ekmot hote parlam na. aapni Hindu
Bangali-ke (practising ones der, antyotopokshe) somehow Bangali-r modhye ekta
swatantro group bole dekhachhen. kintu, reality to ta noi. Hindu-ra sankhai
samosto bangali-r 40%, ebong, by-and-large (urban ceters-er, especially
kolkata-r mushtimeyo kichhu lok-ke baad dile), aapnar bhasai "practising". amar
kachhe, bangali hindu-r tradition and heritage, samasto bangali-r-i tradition
and heritage --- jodio setai samosto bangalir "ekmatro" tradition ba heritage
noi, e-katha aami readily maanbo.
atoeb, bangali hindu-r tradition ebong heritage-er samporke total agyota (as
revealed by the pujas in USA), bangali-r tradition ebong heritage-er samporke
agyota-r porichoy deye (not about all of bangali tradition or heritage, but
about a large part of the same). setai amar baktobyo chhilo, ekhon-o achhe.
any way, once again, we see the world through different lenses. let's agree to
disagree.
Debashis.
Apratim Sarkar
Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> writes:
>kumichhana-r byaparta-tar uttor pare dite haba, karon ami next tin saptahe
>total 18 din travel korchhi, kaaje, (ebong, ekhon ei travel-er prostuti
>jachhe).
>tabe, ami kumichhana dekhanoi biswas kori na. Just that je heritage-er proshno
>ta eto serious byapar, je seta niye-o chhelekhela korte chai na.
>
>ektu sabur korun. sabure mewa fol-leo folte pare.
Jerokom heritage niye taRpachchhilen, bhebechhilum o'i topic'ti bujhi
apnar kachhe ekdam jalabat taralam - hat'e kalom nilei gaRgaR kore
shab beriye porbe. Jan ghure ashun, fire elei heritage niye abar
apnake proshno korbo.
>> Ar dadagiri'r byapare, apnar deowa data anujayi major percentage of
>> US-probashi Bengalis are more interested in weekend Pujos. Tara
>> apnake ekbaro correct tithi-nokkhotre pujo korte baron korchhe na,
>> kintu perhaps tara shetake patronize korbe na. Ebare apni
>> jodi apnar so-called Bengali heritage'r dohai diye tader weekend'r
>> pujo tule dite chan, dadagiri'ta ke korchhe?
>
>ami to pujo tule dewar katha ek-bar-o boli ni! ebar, apni barong amar mukhe
>katha basachhen!
My sincere apologies. Apni shudhu weekend'e pujo korle heritage tule
(yet unsubstantiated, jatokkhon na apnar o'i heritage'r meowa
folchhe) kichhu negative montobyo korechhilen. Etake ki dadagiri bala
chale, Debashsisbabu?
>Joydeep-er prothom mail-er uttor theke ektai katha bolechhi, je, apparently,
>USA-te emong sab bangalir bhiR, jader nijeder tradition-er proti kono anugotyo,
>but jader tradition niye kono pride nei.
Panchombar, perhaps, apnake eta bojhano'r chesta kori, tabe rate of
progress dekhe ami haal almost cheRe diyechhi. Generic Bengali
tradition jodi, apnari kathamoto, ekti diverse union hoi, apnar
tradition follow na kore holei in general lok'r tradition follow
kara je holo na, ta noi. Age lok'r tradition je apnar tradition'r
interpretation'r theke alda hote pare, sheta realize korun, tarpar
ke katota proud ta niye katha habe.
>ebong, tNara-i, by-and-large, USA-r
>pujo gulor control-e -- ta na hole ei "weekend-e pujo"-r rewaj-er aar kono
>explanation dewa sambhab noi.
To? Setai tader tradition, tai niyei tara proud. Apnake to keu ta
niye proud hote bolchhe na, apnar tradition niye apni pujo korun,
jodi participant'der shange organizer'der tradition'r interpretation
different hoi, apnar pujo'te'i lok'e jabe. Noile jabe na. Katha sesh.
Shabai proud. Case jome puro kheer.
How does that sound?
>In fact, if you care to check, my conclusion in reply to Joydeep's post was
>jatodin na amar keu single-handedly tithi mene pujo-r ritee chalu korte
>paarchhi, tatodin, the best we (those who are pained by such arbitrary stuff in
>the name of pujo) can do is to not participate in the "pujo itself".
>
>opinion express kara tao je apnar chokhe dadagiri falano, seta jaantam na.
Ta niye ami kabe ki bollam Debashsibabu? Apni na eshe khanto hole
to katha chhilo na, apni porlen lokjon'r Bengali heritage'r proti
nishtha'r abhab niye - jetake amar clear dadagiri mone hoi.
Apnar expression of opinion noi, opinion'r content'ta dadagiri
bole amar mone hoyechhilo. Difference'ta bojhen?
>> Apnar dadagiri'r complaint valid jodi majority correct tithi-nokkhotre
>> pujo chai ebang minority tader shubidher jonyo sheta weekend'e pathiye
>> dei. Case'ta ki tai, Debashisbabu?
>
>majority ki chai, setai to keu jani na moshai. USA-te weekend-e pujo-r
>byapar-ta ke chalu korechhilo, keno korechhilo, jani na. tabe ekbar jakhon loke
>ei "convenience anujaaee pujo"-r swad peyechhe, takhon seta chhaRano ki atoi
>sahoj?
Tabe ki eta bolte pari je anototo majority bartoman practice'ta
appreciate kore?
>aar, more importantly, jibone sab kichhui ki majority diye thik kara jai?
>jakhon majority of Americans bolechhilio "slavery is perfectly OK", did that
>make slavery OK? jakhon majority of Europeans bolechhilo "colonialism is
>perfectly OK", did that make colonialism OK? aaj jodi majority of Americans
>bale immigrants-der pujo bandho kore dao, will that make "pujo bandho" OK?
>please spare us this kind of fallacious logic.
Apni seshe straw man niye poRlen? :-) Khub chaap jachchhe,
Debashisbabu?
Katha hochchhilo dadagiri niye, thik-bhul niye noi. She proshongei
majority'r katha eshechhe. Religion personal preference'r byapar,
thik bhul chale na, IMHO.
>> Apni amar pointa'tai bojhen ni to amar logic ki bujhben? Ami
>> jeta bala'r chesta korchhilum sheta hochchhe apnar jeta garbage
>> mone hoi shetai hoito anek'r kachhe jathesto traditional. Bengali
>> society eto diverse je one-size-fits-all tradition chalena (je
>> jonyo apnake example dite bolchhilam apnar Bengali heritage'r
>> understanding'r, jate kore counter example dite pari). Apnar baRa
>> bhate jakhan keu chhai dichchhe na, apni onyer Bishyudbare
>> alabu-bhokkhan niye poRchhen keno mairi!?
>
>aami amar opinion express korechhi, matro. ami karur baRa bhate chhai dewar
>adou kono chesta korchhi na.
Of course na, ami ta boliyoni. Kintu, apni onyer Bishyudbare
alabu-bhokkhan niye poRchhen keno sheta bolben ki? Apnar maat prokash
niye amar kichchhu bala'r nei, apnar maat'ta niye achhe.
>Bangali society diverse hote pare, kintu, diversity, like freedom, cannot be
>equated to "jathechhachar"! I'm sure apnio difference ta bojhen, kintu tarker
>khatire ekhon maanben na.
Apnar preference'r baire'r shab kichhukei ki apni generally
jathechchhachar bole brand kore thaken, Debashsisbabu?
>>>>apni thakun na apnar tradition niye, ta
>>>>niye ki ami ekbar-o apotti korechhi?
>>
>> Karen ni? Apnar purono post gulo ektu khule poRun.
>
>Please dekhun. ami bolechhi je apnar tradition amar chokhe painful. ekbar-o ki
>bolechhi, je Apra-babu-r sathe kono rakom durbyabohar kara hok, tNar ei
>tradition-er jonye? Please, give me a break!
Apotti janano'r mane bojhen, Debashsisbabu? Ami ki ebar apnake Bengla
shekhate boshbo?
Naki apni karur kono byapare apotti janate gele prothomei tar shange
kichhu durbyabohar koren? Durbyabohar na korle ki apni apotti janano'ta
complete mone karen na?
>>> DNaRan apni to abar thik bujhte parben na ami ki bolchhi. Nijer post
>> poReo na, tai ami apnake help kori ashun. Dekhun amar kachhe tithi-
>> nakkhotro important noi, kintu (dhorun) anjali'ta important. Ebare
>> dhorun amar pokkhe weekedays'e pujo asha impossible (je kono karoneri
>> hok na keno), kintu weekend'e hole ami ashbo, anjali debo, diye
>> anondo pabo. Shetai amar tradition. Apni weekdays'e pujo karar
>> tradition niye achhen (dhorun) tate amar kichhu bala'r nei. Kintu ebare
>> apni halumfiye "Weekend'e pujo kara, cholbe na, cholbe na!" slogan
>> tulle amar tradition'r problem holo ki na? Ami kintu apnar tradition'r
>> pechhone absolutely kathi korte jai ni.
>
>kintu ami to kothao "halumfiye weekend-e pujo kara, cholbe na, cholbe na" boli
>ni. bolechhi "weekend-e pujo amar chokhe garbage, garbage!" "jara weekend-e
>pujo kore, tara, amar chokhe, bangali-r tradition bojhe na, bojhe na!" duto-r
>modhye difference-ta bojha to eto kichhu difficult byapar noi!
Ok, cool, ami je slogan'ta bolechhilum she'ta apni jegulo bolchhen
shegulo diye substitute kore din. Tarpar abar amar paragraph'ta
poRun.
>aami ki aar amar matamot-o prokash korte paarbo na naki, SCB-te? bhari adbhut
>to! ekhon theke ki byaktigoto matamot-o "majority vote" niye sthir korte habe
>naki?
Achchha, ami apnar mat'r shange ekmat noi, shei criticism'ta'ke
apnar maat prokash'r swadhinata'te hastokkhep mone korchhen
keno bolun to? Apnar philosophy (note, the philosophy itself,
not it's expression) jodi amar unfair mone hoi, if I challenge that
in a public forum, does that mean that I am against the _expression_
of your philosophy? I am against the philosophy itself, Debashsisbabu.
>chote jaini ektukuo. tinte prem jodi ek rattire korte paren, tin premika-ke
>eksathe chotiye na diye, to bolbo apni gurudeb manush!
Lajya deben na, apnar max kato?
>> Ebare apni je katha'ta bolechhen sheta'r kichhu daam achhe, mante habe.
>> Amar tradition rakhte giye ami jeno onyer tradition'r abomanona na kori,
>> etai to? Good point. Kintu shei point approach korte gele, Debashsibabu,
>> apnake _Hindu religious heritage_ theke ashte habe. Bengali socio-
>> cultural heritage theke noi, karan, eta apni perhaps janen, majority
>> Bengali'ra Hindu noi, jara Hindu tader ekta substantial percentage
>> practicing Hindu noi. Amar mejaj'ta kharap hoyechhilo apni Hindu
>> religious norm'ke Bengali social norm bole chalano'r cheshta korchhilen
>> dekhe. (Nachiketa'r shange jambe bhalo, ki balen?)
>
>again, sorry, mante parlam na. apni je "bangali heritage" aar "hindu heritage"
>-er distinctionta korchhen, seta, agei bolechhi, amar kachhe arthoheen.
Jodi ami apnake ekgada example dei jekhane e duti disjoint, tabeo
ki apni e'i eki katha bolben? Ekta intersection je achhe she to
ami manchhi, kintu intersection'r baireo anek kichhu achhe bolei amar
dharona. Example dite pari. Apnake tenth grade'r set theory'r kichhu
boi upohar dite pari jate set equality niye kichhu bala achhe. Ar ki
korte pari bolun?
>hindu
>heritgate bangali heritage-er ekta angsho, baRo angsho.
At the risk of repeating myself for the 5-th time, kintu ekmatro
angsho noi.
>amar kachhe, bangali-r
>heritage, bangalir samasto bhager heritage-er set union. clearly, apnar mat
>ebyapare alada.
Actually, ekdam ek. As I have said earlier, apnar definition anujayi
apnar onyo Bangalider onyo tradition celebrate karai apotti thakar
katha noi. Antoto apnar union definition anujayi.
>ebong, ei katha ta, je why not have a get together on the occassion of pujo,
>without making a joke out of the pujo itself, aage bohubar bolechhi. keno sei
>post-gulo aapni dekhen-ni, jani na.
Apni shetai korun na, ke atkachchhe. shabai'ke'kei ki tai korte habe?
Sheta ki tabe union chheRe intersection'r dike jachchhe na?
>> Apni Bengali heritage katiye diye Hindu religious heritage'e chole jaan,
>> amaro mukh bandho hoye jabe. Kintu Bengali heritage'e chhupiye Hindu
>> religious heritage dhokano'r cheshta korben na please.
>
>keno jete jabo? Hindu heritage ki bangali heritage-er part noi?
Part, but not the whole story. Considering that we live in strange
political times, it is not unusual that there is an organized effort
back home to convince Bengalis, and Indians in general, otherwise.
If, as you have said, it is indeed a part, then you should have no
problems accepting the practices of the other parts, jader katha
ami bolechhilum. Tai na?
>amar-o mejaj kharap hochhe, ei ektai karone. bangali hote gele ki Hindu howa
>chhaRte hochhe naki, aajkal? bangali-r heritage-e hindu heritage-er role
>anek-khani. tai bole ki ami kono muslim, chrisitian, brahmo ki bouddho
>bangali-ke bolchhi tader heritage ta bangali heritage-er part noi? kakkhono na!
Particular religious sect'der apni bolenni, manchhi. Kintu religious
jara noi, jara Durga Pujo'ta'ke social event hishebe nei, what about
them?
>ami amar bakthobyo prokash korechhi "bangalir durga pujo"-r poriprekshi-te,
>jetar songe "bangali hindu-r heritage" angangi-bhabe joRito.
Kolkata'r ekta section je eta mone kare na, jader example ami
diyechhilam, jader existence apni'o swikar korechhilen, tara ki
apnar set union'r antorbhukto, Debashisbabu? Repeat korte korte klanto
hoye poRchhi.
>lukono churono amar swabhab noi. barong aapni ekhon ekta
>"bangali-non-practising-hindu" heritage, chupisaRe samosto bangalir ghaRe
>chalanor chesta korchhen, emon katha bolleo bodhoi atyukti hoi na!
Keno bolun to!? Amar kintu amon kono ichchhe nei. Apni apnar moto
thakun, ami amar moto. Generic apni ebang ami, ekhane.
>by the very fact that you (don't mean you personally, but you as those who are
>organizing these JOKEs in the name pujo) make mockery out of the pujo, you
>insult a part of what I consider to be my heritage.
>
>byapar-ta shuorer rakto niye muslim-er baRir samne chhoriye asha, ba "mother
>mary having an intimate relationship with a man" er chhobi ekta christian-ke
>dekhanor moto hoye gelo na ki? aar ami jodi tai niye birokti ba apotti prokash
>kori, to seta holo "chapano"? Wow!
>
>I guess you will now re-define a lot of concepts for me.
Dekhte pachchhen to, apnar nijer analogy guloi completely
religious perspective theke ashchhe - socio-cultural theke noi.
Ekhanei Bengali heritage'r jaigai Hindu Bengali heritage'r
substitution, apnar ajantei. Etai ami bolte chaichhilum.
>goRar katha-tai to bojhe ni dekhchhi. SCB-te ami amar matamot prokash korechhi.
>apni barong barbar claim korechhen je ami naki "hindu heritage" take "bangalir
>ekmatro heritage" bole chalanor chesta korechhi, jeta ami gyanoto ebong
>agyanoto, ekbar-o kori ni (amar posts gulo ekhon-o achhe, poRe dekha sahoj).
Hindu heritage (tithi makkhotro mene Durga pujo) follow na kara,
apnar maate, Bengali heirtage'r proti ashomman janano. Thik quote
korlam ki?
>bar
>bar bolechhi je hindu heritage ta amar (ebong jara pujoi ashe, tader aneker)
>heritage, ebong bangali heritage-er baRo angsho. jara weekend-e pujo korchhe,
>tara sei heritage ta bojhe na, jane na, ba tai niye kono pride feel kore na.
Tar manei ki tader separate kono ekta Bengali heritage thakte pare na,
je sammondhe tara pride feel korte pare? A simple yes/no answer will
end this extremely tedious debate Debashsisbabu.
>eta amar byaktigoto matamot, ebong ami seta express korechhi. ekhono seta karar
>odhikar amar achhe bolei amar dharona.
Of course. Eto defensive haben na.
N. Tiwari
Test
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Apratim Sarkar
Debashisbabu amar post'r uttor'e bolechhen:
>> Jehetu apni "Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan"'r parallel'e chole jachchhen,
>> amaro bishesh kichhu ar bala'r nei.
>>
>
>Once again, I'm completely baffled. I do not see where I went in this
>direction.
Apnar nijer post'ti arekbar poRun, hoito clear habe.
>It almost sounds like you are accusing me to be a Hindu fanatic hate-monger,
>like many we often see in these newsgroups. I know (and thought you know too)
>that I sincerely detest that crowd.
Which is precisely why I opened the discussion with you. As you
may have noticed, I ususally leave those guys alone.
>I must say that I do not understand this twisted distinction you make between
>"Hindu Bengalis" and "Bengalis".
Since (according to you only) 60% of Bengalis are non-Hindus, I fail
to understand the source of your confusion.
>In the history of Bengal, Hindus have always
>been (predating the Buddhists, Muslims, Vaishnav's, Brahmos, and Christians) a
>large part of the Bengali population. As a result, they have contributed at
>least as much to the traditions and heritage of Bengal, as any other group of
>Bengalis. Why try to protray Hindu as somehow being an anomalous sect in
>Bengali population, I do not understand!
And I was not trying that Debashsisbabu! Anamolous are distinct are not
the same.
>Why portray "practising Hindu Bengali"
>as being "Hindi, Hindusthan" (which is a deliberate, uncalled for, and ugly
>provocation, far beneath the intellectual standard expected from you), I do not
>understand!
Practising Hindu heritage niye ami kakhan ki bollam Debashsisbabu!?
Amar poin'ta chhilo about casting aspersions on other people's
loyalty to _their_ socio-cultural heritage based on their failure to
follow _your_ religious (if you prefer religio-siocial) heritage.
I found your accusations parallel to that of those who preach that to
be a "proper" Indian, to have pride in Indian heritage one has to speak
in Hindi or be a Hindu, based on the fact that Hindi is spoken by a
sizable section of Indians and Hinduism is the major religion practised
by Indians, without any regards for other people's own socio-cultural
heritages.
If to be a "proper" Bengali, to prove one's loyalty to the Bengali
culture one has to strictly follow those parts of Bengali heritage
and culture that derives from Hinduism, based on the logic that
Hindus form 40% (according to you) of Bengalis and that Hindu culture
has a lot of contributions to Bengali culture (which I don't dispute,
BTW) how is this requirement different from the one above, the HHH one?
>I suspect that a fundamental reason for the rise in popularity of the various
>hate-monger Hindu groups in India, can be found in the rather twisted attitude
>that you are displaying towards people who "practice" or "would like to
>practice" Hindu religio-social activities in forms that are closer to the
>traditional practices, than yours are. As I mentioned earlier, by-and-large,
>the people of WB are "practising Hindus" --- following your definition and
>terminology. When some others, like yourself, start looking at them as
>something of an anomaly (as you clearly do, judging by your various posts), I
>suspect many of them feel bad and/or threatened (not me, though). I, for one,
>do not care what you, or people like you, label me as. However, its reasonable
>to assume that others, especially the non-urbanites (who area already looked
>down upon, and discriminated against, by urbanites, and who are very much
>"practising Hindus") have a lot of reason to feel bad and/or threatened by the
>kind of attitude you display. If that is true, then it is easy to see why the
>more fanatic factions among Hindus would gain in popularity. At least, they say
>many things that sound appealing, even if there is lot of ugliness hidden
>behind that thin veneer of "right words".
Not once have I expressed any disrespct for practising Hindus, nor
did I say that I consider them to be an anamoly.
>Debashis.
Debashis Bhattacharya
.. deleted ...
>
> Jehetu apni "Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan"'r parallel'e chole jachchhen,
> amaro bishesh kichhu ar bala'r nei.
>
Once again, I'm completely baffled. I do not see where I went in this
direction.
It almost sounds like you are accusing me to be a Hindu fanatic hate-monger,
like many we often see in these newsgroups. I know (and thought you know too)
that I sincerely detest that crowd.
I must say that I do not understand this twisted distinction you make between
"Hindu Bengalis" and "Bengalis". In the history of Bengal, Hindus have always
been (predating the Buddhists, Muslims, Vaishnav's, Brahmos, and Christians) a
large part of the Bengali population. As a result, they have contributed at
least as much to the traditions and heritage of Bengal, as any other group of
Bengalis. Why try to protray Hindu as somehow being an anomalous sect in
Bengali population, I do not understand! Why portray "practising Hindu Bengali"
as being "Hindi, Hindusthan" (which is a deliberate, uncalled for, and ugly
provocation, far beneath the intellectual standard expected from you), I do not
understand!
I suspect that a fundamental reason for the rise in popularity of the various
hate-monger Hindu groups in India, can be found in the rather twisted attitude
that you are displaying towards people who "practice" or "would like to
practice" Hindu religio-social activities in forms that are closer to the
traditional practices, than yours are. As I mentioned earlier, by-and-large,
the people of WB are "practising Hindus" --- following your definition and
terminology. When some others, like yourself, start looking at them as
something of an anomaly (as you clearly do, judging by your various posts), I
suspect many of them feel bad and/or threatened (not me, though). I, for one,
do not care what you, or people like you, label me as. However, its reasonable
to assume that others, especially the non-urbanites (who area already looked
down upon, and discriminated against, by urbanites, and who are very much
"practising Hindus") have a lot of reason to feel bad and/or threatened by the
kind of attitude you display. If that is true, then it is easy to see why the
more fanatic factions among Hindus would gain in popularity. At least, they say
many things that sound appealing, even if there is lot of ugliness hidden
behind that thin veneer of "right words".
> Apratim.
>
Debashis.
Sugato Bhattacharyya
In article <55b0gc$l...@inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com>, asa...@us.oracle.com
(Apratim Sarkar) wrote:
> And I was not trying that Debashsisbabu! Anamolous are distinct are not
> the same.
>
Indeed everybody recognizes that they are distinct. Not to realize this
would be a prime example of anomalous behavior.
(Sorry, couldn't resist. :-))
--
Sugato Bhattacharyya
Debashis Bhattacharya
.. deleted ...
>
>>I must say that I do not understand this twisted distinction you make between
>>"Hindu Bengalis" and "Bengalis".
>
> Since (according to you only) 60% of Bengalis are non-Hindus, I fail
> to understand the source of your confusion.
Does that make the remaining 40% non-Bengalis? That's virtually what you have
been suggesting all along -- through statements like "tahole apni Hindu hoye
jaan" (refer to your earlier post) --- and that's my source of confusion. I'm
Hindu, and I'm Bengali. All along, we have been discussing Durga Pujo in USA,
which is organized and enjoyed by "Bengali Hindus" (practising, or
non-practising), by-and-large. When I complain about these people (who are
still Bengali Hindus) not being proud of their heritage, I'm legitimately
talking about their Hindu religio-social heritage (which is theirs, whether
they like it, or not).
>
>>In the history of Bengal, Hindus have always
>>been (predating the Buddhists, Muslims, Vaishnav's, Brahmos, and Christians) a
>>large part of the Bengali population. As a result, they have contributed at
>>least as much to the traditions and heritage of Bengal, as any other group of
>>Bengalis. Why try to protray Hindu as somehow being an anomalous sect in
>>Bengali population, I do not understand!
>
> And I was not trying that Debashsisbabu! Anamolous are distinct are not
> the same.
Unfortunately, you were. Please go back and read your posts (one example of
which, I have just quoted above).
>
>>Why portray "practising Hindu Bengali"
>>as being "Hindi, Hindusthan" (which is a deliberate, uncalled for, and ugly
>>provocation, far beneath the intellectual standard expected from you), I do not
>>understand!
>
> Practising Hindu heritage niye ami kakhan ki bollam Debashsisbabu!?
> Amar poin'ta chhilo about casting aspersions on other people's
> loyalty to _their_ socio-cultural heritage based on their failure to
> follow _your_ religious (if you prefer religio-siocial) heritage.
Its not "my religious heritage". That's something I object to, rather loudly.
However, I know that the next question you will ask is "what is heritage?"
I promise you an answer around Nov. 15, and we will re-visit this point, at
that time.
>
> I found your accusations parallel to that of those who preach that to
> be a "proper" Indian, to have pride in Indian heritage one has to speak
> in Hindi or be a Hindu, based on the fact that Hindi is spoken by a
> sizable section of Indians and Hinduism is the major religion practised
> by Indians, without any regards for other people's own socio-cultural
> heritages.
That is ridiculous! We are not talking about, say, Bengali Muslims, or Bengali
Christians having no pride in the Bengali Hindu socio-religious (or
religio-social) heritage! They are not, by any strech of imagination, a
noticeable factor in the organization or scheduling of Durga Pujo by any
Bengali group in USA! We are talking about people who are supposedly trying to
follow the Bengali Hindu traditions -- whose parents, just one generation ago,
did things like Durga Pujo, very differently. That's where the issue of
heritage comes in.
To compare that to the "Hindi, Hindu" garbage, is preposterous! The "Hindi,
Hindu" group is trying to impose one language, one value, on all groups of
India. I'm complaining about one specific group, which is supposedly trying to
uphold "its traditions" by holding Durga Pujo, making a joke out of Durga Pujo
in the process! If this day-and-night distinction is not clear to you, I do not
know, honestly, how I can make it any clearer.
>
> If to be a "proper" Bengali, to prove one's loyalty to the Bengali
> culture one has to strictly follow those parts of Bengali heritage
> and culture that derives from Hinduism, based on the logic that
> Hindus form 40% (according to you) of Bengalis and that Hindu culture
> has a lot of contributions to Bengali culture (which I don't dispute,
> BTW) how is this requirement different from the one above, the HHH one?
Who is talking about "proper Bengali?" Not me! I'm talking about a "proper
Bengali Durga Pujo"! The two are very different things.
We are not talking about forcing Bengali Muslims to come to Durga pujo. We are
not talking about banning all celebrations by Bengali Christians. We are not
talking about anybody other than Bengali Hindus, at all! What I have said all
along, is that by-and-large, the Bengalis in USA who are organizing, or
participating in, these Durga Pujo-s, have very little pride in their own
heritage, and that's why they always try to fit the pujo into a weekend
according to their own convenience, and not according to any tradition.
As part of that discussion, I also said that Bengali Hindu heritage is a large
part of Bengali heritage.
At no point of time did I suggest that there is nothing in Bengali heritage
besides the Bengali Hindu heritage, nor did I suggest that other Bengali groups
(non-Hindus) be forced to "obey and follow" our norms, in order for them to be
"proper Bengalis"! In fact, I have never thought about the possible existence
of the phrase "proper Bengali", until you provided it to me! Contrast that to
the HHH positions, and you will see the difference, loud and clear.
Again, I suspect you are deliberately mixing the two up, even though you know
the difference very well.
.. deleted ...
>
> Not once have I expressed any disrespct for practising Hindus, nor
> did I say that I consider them to be an anamoly.
Unfortunately, you have. If you do not believe me, please ask some neutral
person to read your posts and evaluate them.
>
>>Debashis.
>
> Apratim.
>
>
Debashis.
Apratim Sarkar
Debashis Bhattacharya <bhattach> writes:
>asa...@us.oracle.com (Apratim Sarkar) wrote:
>>>I must say that I do not understand this twisted distinction you make between
>>>"Hindu Bengalis" and "Bengalis".
>>
>> Since (according to you only) 60% of Bengalis are non-Hindus, I fail
>> to understand the source of your confusion.
>
>Does that make the remaining 40% non-Bengalis?
No, and I didn't say that. I simply said that that makes the Bengali
Hindus a distinct group within the entire Bengali population. Apnar
ekta sahaj katha bujhte eto ashubidhe hoi keno bolun to?
>That's virtually what you have
>been suggesting all along -- through statements like "tahole apni Hindu hoye
>jaan" (refer to your earlier post) --- and that's my source of confusion.
That's a lie Debashisbabu. I never made such a statement as "tahole
apni ..." - please substantiate you statement or retract it. Actually
an apology will be in order too.
[Daya kore bolben na je amar statement poRe apnar o'irakam bhulbhal
kichhu ekta _mone hoyechhe_. Apnar bojhar bhul'r jonyo ami dayee noi.]
>I'm
>Hindu, and I'm Bengali.
No problem. I am a non-practising Hindu, and I am a Bengali too.
Any problems?
>All along, we have been discussing Durga Pujo in USA,
>which is organized and enjoyed by "Bengali Hindus" (practising, or
>non-practising), by-and-large. When I complain about these people (who are
>still Bengali Hindus)
Khub conveniently ager line'r non-practising'ta baad diye gelen.
>not being proud of their heritage, I'm legitimately
>talking about their Hindu religio-social heritage (which is theirs, whether
>they like it, or not).
GhaRe chapiye deben naki? Etake ki dadagiri bala chale?
What if I do not practise that particular aspect of the "heritage"
but practise some different part of it? Apni prothome jor kore
amar ghaRe je part'ti ami practisekori na sheti chapaben ("whether
I like it, or not"), tarpar amake sheti follow na karar jonyo
criticize korben. Ashadharan!
>>>In the history of Bengal, Hindus have always
>>>been (predating the Buddhists, Muslims, Vaishnav's, Brahmos, and Christians) a
>>>large part of the Bengali population. As a result, they have contributed at
>>>least as much to the traditions and heritage of Bengal, as any other group of
>>>Bengalis. Why try to protray Hindu as somehow being an anomalous sect in
>>>Bengali population, I do not understand!
>>
>> And I was not trying that Debashsisbabu! Anamolous are distinct are not
>> the same.
>
>Unfortunately, you were. Please go back and read your posts (one example of
>which, I have just quoted above).
That quote is a damn lie Debashisbabu. Also, please do not substitute
your interpretations of my posts for my actual posts. Again, I refuse
to take any responsibility for your lack of comprehension.
And finally, no, all along I said distinct, and never did I say
anomalous. That is a figment of your imgination.
>>>Why portray "practising Hindu Bengali"
>>>as being "Hindi, Hindusthan" (which is a deliberate, uncalled for, and ugly
>>>provocation, far beneath the intellectual standard expected from you), I do not
>>>understand!
>>
>> Practising Hindu heritage niye ami kakhan ki bollam Debashsisbabu!?
>> Amar poin'ta chhilo about casting aspersions on other people's
>> loyalty to _their_ socio-cultural heritage based on their failure to
>> follow _your_ religious (if you prefer religio-siocial) heritage.
>
>Its not "my religious heritage". That's something I object to, rather loudly.
Are you objecting to the _my_ part or to the _religious_ part?
[Or to the _heritage_ part? :-)]
>However, I know that the next question you will ask is "what is heritage?"
>I promise you an answer around Nov. 15, and we will re-visit this point, at
>that time.
OK. Ruddhashwashe apekkha kore thakbo.
>> I found your accusations parallel to that of those who preach that to
>> be a "proper" Indian, to have pride in Indian heritage one has to speak
>> in Hindi or be a Hindu, based on the fact that Hindi is spoken by a
>> sizable section of Indians and Hinduism is the major religion practised
>> by Indians, without any regards for other people's own socio-cultural
>> heritages.
>
>That is ridiculous! We are not talking about, say, Bengali Muslims, or Bengali
>Christians having no pride in the Bengali Hindu socio-religious (or
>religio-social) heritage! They are not, by any strech of imagination, a
>noticeable factor in the organization or scheduling of Durga Pujo by any
>Bengali group in USA! We are talking about people who are supposedly trying to
>follow the Bengali Hindu traditions --
Says who? Clearly, they are trying to organize a social get-together,
Durgapujo upolokkhe. They have been doing this for a while. They have
created their own _social_ tradition, I would say. Religion is there
but just as a backdrop.
>whose parents, just one generation ago,
>did things like Durga Pujo, very differently. That's where the issue of
>heritage comes in.
So, whatever parents have followed becomes our heritage?
>To compare that to the "Hindi, Hindu" garbage, is preposterous! The "Hindi,
>Hindu" group is trying to impose one language, one value, on all groups of
>India. I'm complaining about one specific group, which is supposedly trying to
>uphold "its traditions" by holding Durga Pujo,
My (unscientific) survey indicates that US folks are more keen on
having a good social gathering. Adda, cultural anushthan eshob byapre
anek beshi interested. Je tradition dhore rakha'r chesta hochchhe
sheta DP'r noi, DP upolokkhe social gathering'r.
>making a joke out of Durga Pujo
>in the process!
Granted. Kintu sheta to main aim noi anyway. From the heritage, if
you will, POV of US-based Bengalis. And, as we have discussed
earlier, for a substantial section of Calcuttans as well. Does that
mean that their heritage ceases to be Bengali? Not Hindu, OK, but
not Bengali?
>If this day-and-night distinction is not clear to you, I do not
>know, honestly, how I can make it any clearer.
Coming back to the one-group-many-group distinction, that is
just a technical one, Debashsisbabu. The spirit remains the same,
i.e. if others have a different heritage which doesn't match mine,
but both are within the context of a greater (as in a diverse set
union IYO) heritage, simply brand the others as not following that
greater heritage, if necessary forcing mine on others (whether they
like it or not).
>> If to be a "proper" Bengali, to prove one's loyalty to the Bengali
>> culture one has to strictly follow those parts of Bengali heritage
>> and culture that derives from Hinduism, based on the logic that
>> Hindus form 40% (according to you) of Bengalis and that Hindu culture
>> has a lot of contributions to Bengali culture (which I don't dispute,
>> BTW) how is this requirement different from the one above, the HHH one?
>
>Who is talking about "proper Bengali?" Not me! I'm talking about a "proper
>Bengali Durga Pujo"! The two are very different things.
Agreed. OK, so please change my statement to 'If to organize a "proper
Bengali Durga Pujo" etc. ...'.
>We are not talking about forcing Bengali Muslims to come to Durga pujo. We are
>not talking about banning all celebrations by Bengali Christians. We are not
>talking about anybody other than Bengali Hindus, at all!
Including non-practising ones. Jader ghaRe apni jor kore Hindu
tradition chapaben, apnar bhashai, "whether they like it or not".
>What I have said all
>along, is that by-and-large, the Bengalis in USA who are organizing, or
>participating in, these Durga Pujo-s, have very little pride in their own
>heritage,
Fata record'r moto eki katha abar! _Their_ heritage!? What do you
know about _their_ heritage other than the one that you would like to
impose on them, regardless of whether "they like it or not"? Anyway,
even if you do know, clearly you are not ready to appreciate it till
they start to follow the dictums of the heritage that you would
like to impose on them.
>and that's why they always try to fit the pujo into a weekend
>according to their own convenience, and not according to any tradition.
They do it according to _their_ tradition. OK?
>As part of that discussion, I also said that Bengali Hindu heritage is a large
>part of Bengali heritage.
>
>At no point of time did I suggest that there is nothing in Bengali heritage
>besides the Bengali Hindu heritage, nor did I suggest that other Bengali groups
>(non-Hindus) be forced to "obey and follow" our norms, in order for them to be
>"proper Bengalis"!
Would you please grant the same privilege to non-practising
Hindus as well so that we may end this debate?
>In fact, I have never thought about the possible existence
>of the phrase "proper Bengali", until you provided it to me! Contrast that to
>the HHH positions, and you will see the difference, loud and clear.
>
>Again, I suspect you are deliberately mixing the two up, even though you know
>the difference very well.
I am tired. Tired!
>> Not once have I expressed any disrespct for practising Hindus, nor
>> did I say that I consider them to be an anamoly.
>
>Unfortunately, you have. If you do not believe me, please ask some neutral
>person to read your posts and evaluate them.
Whatever. What I didn't say, I didn't say. Others are free to
imagine disrespect, in fact some thrive on imagining such things, I
am told. Identity khatre mein hai, once again.
santoshsa...@gmail.com
> Why is it that Bengalis in the US celebrate Durga Puja on weekends even when the actual dates for the
> Puja are otherwise? Why can't they claim the 4 days of the Pujas as "religious holidays" just as Jews
> claim Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur as religious holidays and dont go to work on those days? I am not sure
> but some legislation does exist in the US which allows people of different religious faiths to claim certain
> days of the year as religious holidays (without incurring the wrath of their employers!). Therefore, is it not
> possible for Bengalis to do the same?
>
> Or is it that we are "ashamed" in some way of our own customs and festivals? I am inclined to think this
> way. IMHO, this shame extends to other spheres of life too; our abhorrence of ethnic dresses like saris,
> dhotis, kurta-pajama etc.(even in otherwise informal social gatherings in the US); our children growing up
> not being able to read/speak/write Bengali.....
>
> And yet, you would be hard-pressed to find a German kid who does not speak German, a child of Jewish
> parentage who does not celebrate Hanukkah, two Italians who dont break-off into their mother-tongue even
> when others around dont speak Italian,... you get the point. Some of us are probably proud that our children
> speak little Bengali but speak English with an American accent.
>
> Paradoxically, as Bengalis, we are the first to proclaim (mainly to non-Indians) that Bose (of Bose speakers
> fame) is a Bengali, as is Amartya Sen (esp. when he has consistently been chosen by economists around
> the world as being the most deserving to get the Nobel Prize in Economics). We also feel proud when Ray
> gets a lifetime achievement Oscar, and yet, if you look at it carefully, somewhere down the line, our actions
> reveal our deep sense of shame in our own culture.
>
> Wonder what is behind all this?
>
> Regards,
>
> Joydeep
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Joydeep Bhattacharya
> Finance and Business Economics Department
> School of Business Administration
> University of Southern California
> Los Angeles CA 90089-1421
> Phone: (213) 740 6518 ; Fax : (213) 740 6555
> --------------------------------------------------------------
santosh