Bengali vs. Bangla
Samir
Adab & Namashkar,
I was wondering what the current consensus is on using the word 'Bengali'
as opposed to using the word 'Bangla'. I, personally, have always used the
word 'Bengali', when I am speaking in English, and I use the word 'Bangla'
(as in Bangla Bhasha) when I am speaking in Bengali.
The problem I have is that some Bangladeshi friends of mine are always
correcting me when I use the word 'Bengali' in English, and tell me I
should say that 'I speak Bangla' and not Bengali. I have also come across
this in various guidebooks and books from Bangladesh, so I am at a loss as
to whether this distinction between 'Bengali' and 'Bangla' is actually
based on geographical or political distinctions. i.e. between West Bengal
(Bengali) and Bangladesh (Bangla).
I would be interested to know what you think.
Thanks,
Samir
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Samir wrote:
> I am at a loss as
> to whether this distinction between 'Bengali' and 'Bangla' is actually
> based on geographical or political distinctions. i.e. between West Bengal
> (Bengali) and Bangladesh (Bangla).
> I would be interested to know what you think.
No one can decide for you, however, I personally prefer Bangla for
several reasons:
1. Several Bangla and Indian words have been mispronounced by the accent
pattern of the anglo-saxon - I don't think we should continue that;
2. a neighbouring country shed a great amount of blood and has brought
the language in the world-front in a mass-awareness level in 1971; and,
finally,
3. to my ears, Bangla sounds more sweet than Bengali, despite the fact
that throughout my school days, my training had been in English
medium...
Regards,
Shoumyo.
--
"... Shada bhat thik uThbei phute tarapunjer moto,
Purono Gaaner bismrito-kotha phirbe tomar shwor-e
Premik milbe premikar shaathe Thik-i
Kintu Shanti pabena, pabena, pabena..."
('Shongoti', Ode to Amiya Chakroborti
- Shoheed Kadri)
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article
<01bc773f$5c21df60$5039...@www.btinternet.com.btinternet.com>, Samir
says...
>
>
>Adab & Namashkar,
>
>I was wondering what the current consensus is on using the word 'Bengali'
>as opposed to using the word 'Bangla'. I, personally, have always used the
>word 'Bengali', when I am speaking in English, and I use the word 'Bangla'
>(as in Bangla Bhasha) when I am speaking in Bengali.
[...]
>Samir
I am unaware of any convergent consensus on this topic. An analogous
situation is one where a German in coversation with a non-German (but
English) speaking person says his mother tongue is Deutch and does not use
the word German. Without further clarification, it may be difficult for this
English-speaking person to understand that the English word for Deutch is
German!
In any case, to be strictly correct, you should introduce yourself as Bangali
(not Bengali) and say that your mother-tongue is Bangla.
These days, I am often introduced as "Kolkata'r bangali" by some of my
Bangladeshi acquaintances. What on earth is that?
-Joydeep
Siddhartha Duttagupta
In article <33A09E...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>,
Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>
>> These days, I am often introduced as "Kolkata'r bangali" by some of my
>> Bangladeshi acquaintances. What on earth is that?
>
>
Bangalir definition ki, this is an important question.
Is it geographical, historical, cultural what?
I think there are cogent arguments on all sides.
And depending on our mental lattitude I guess we can talk
about union or intersection of the above three.
For example I want to remove supratik from the list and vice
versa. ;)))
is there an absolute standard?
regards, siddhartha
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Samir wrote:
>
> But isn't that the point, that the distinction is made purely on the basis
> of identity - that the language in Bangladesh is thought to have to be
> somehow fundamentally 'different' to the language spoken in Calcutta
> (India), because otherwise what is the point in having two separate
> countries? In this way the myth is allowed to sink in deeper and deeper.
Not because of the language(s). They were divided predominantly on the
basis of instigated feelings that are based on religious differences.
(vide Bengal Divided by Joya Chatterjee).
I find budhdhijeebis (does not necessarily translate to 'intellectual'
in my dictionary) and some Bengalis in the media
(television/radio/theatre/arts/literature) from both sides speak the
same bookish Bangla (sometimes from erudition and style -- has anyone
heard Alokeranjan Dasgupta or Shamsur Rahman?) which also happens to be
Kolkata's adaptation of Shantipuri dialect laced with constant
innovations to play around with.
Others speak what everyone else speaks.
Some of my esteemed Bangladeshi friends in the media 'try' to eradicate
their zilla-specific accents and sound like Kolkatar lok but this
becomes funny...
I think the whole rainbow should be there - starting from BNakuRa to
Chottogram, from KochBihar to Barisal with all their colorful varieties.
Why just Kolkatar bhasha or Dhakar bhasha ?
> Similarly the words 'Bangali' and 'Bangladeshi' have almost come to
> represent two separate communities - the former 'Hindu' and the latter
> 'Muslim'. I haven't come across many people who call themselves
> 'Bangladeshi Hindus'. Personally, I hate all this 'categorising' - it
> really is so pointless and unhelpful!
>
> For example, I was alarmed to hear someone on a road in Calcutta shout to
> an elderly man (a Muslim) who was on a bicycle - "Bangladesh-e phire za" -
> simply because he was holding up the traffic and because he was therefore a
> 'bangal' Muslim.
How could they tell he was one ?
> Even my grandmother, who has a Bangladeshi passport, still
> feels reluctant to say that she is a 'Bangladeshi' in front of other people
> from W. Bengal, because she is a Hindu and admitting that she is a
> Bangladeshi might infer that she is mixing with 'unsavory' types. I think
> that this completely wrong, but I can sort of see her twisted logic even
> though I disagree with her point of view. My father is a Muslim, however,
> but she has never had any problem accepting this fact luckily.
>
> Anyway, I am not advocating that W. Bengal and Bangladesh should
> re-integrate into 'one' Bengal or even become part of India because I do
> not think that the deep distrust on both sides will ever disappear
> completely.
>
> It has also been pointed out to me that the Bengali in Bangladesh is slowly
> changing to incorporate more words from a perso-arabic vocabulary, and even
> now (despite the Bhasha Andolon) some people are encouraging writing
> Bengali dialects in Arabic scripts. I do not know if this is true or not,
> maybe some of you know something about this.
>
> I'd be interested to hear what you make of all this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Samir
A very accurate representation of the facts.
I have not heard about the Bengali-written-in-Arabic scripts though.
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
> These days, I am often introduced as "Kolkata'r bangali" by some of my
> Bangladeshi acquaintances. What on earth is that?
It is worse sometimes: "India-r Bangali"...
Shoumyo.
Samir
But isn't that the point, that the distinction is made purely on the basis
of identity - that the language in Bangladesh is thought to have to be
somehow fundamentally 'different' to the language spoken in Calcutta
(India), because otherwise what is the point in having two separate
countries? In this way the myth is allowed to sink in deeper and deeper.
represent two separate communities - the former 'Hindu' and the latter
'Muslim'. I haven't come across many people who call themselves
'Bangladeshi Hindus'. Personally, I hate all this 'categorising' - it
really is so pointless and unhelpful!
For example, I was alarmed to hear someone on a road in Calcutta shout to
an elderly man (a Muslim) who was on a bicycle - "Bangladesh-e phire za" -
simply because he was holding up the traffic and because he was therefore a
'bangal' Muslim. Even my grandmother, who has a Bangladeshi passport, still
feels reluctant to say that she is a 'Bangladeshi' in front of other people
from W. Bengal, because she is a Hindu and admitting that she is a
Bangladeshi might infer that she is mixing with 'unsavory' types. I think
that this completely wrong, but I can sort of see her twisted logic even
though I disagree with her point of view. My father is a Muslim, however,
but she has never had any problem accepting this fact luckily.
Anyway, I am not advocating that W. Bengal and Bangladesh should
re-integrate into 'one' Bengal or even become part of India because I do
not think that the deep distrust on both sides will ever disappear
completely.
It has also been pointed out to me that the Bengali in Bangladesh is slowly
changing to incorporate more words from a perso-arabic vocabulary, and even
now (despite the Bhasha Andolon) some people are encouraging writing
Bengali dialects in Arabic scripts. I do not know if this is true or not,
maybe some of you know something about this.
I'd be interested to hear what you make of all this.
Thanks,
Samir
Samir
> Not because of the language(s). They were divided predominantly on the
> basis of instigated feelings that are based on religious differences.
> (vide Bengal Divided by Joya Chatterjee).
Yes, but language has become another issue which has become synonymous with
identity. In India, Hindi is constantly becoming more and more sanskritised
for obvious reasons. Even at SOAS (here at the University of London) the
Hindi being taught is clearly not what is actually spoken on the streets.
Even in Pakistan, where I lived for three years, the Urdu language has
become so full of 'loan' words from Arabic that many cannot even understand
the news when it is broadcast on TV! Time and time again in the
sub-continent language has been manipulated in order to serve the purpose
of preserving one's religious and political identity. I am reminded
constantly of Bernard Shaw's famous quote about the English language, and
find it strangely relevant to the case of Bengali and other 'South Asian'
languages:
"England and America are two countries divided by a common language".
> I find budhdhijeebis (does not necessarily translate to 'intellectual'
> in my dictionary) and some Bengalis in the media
> (television/radio/theatre/arts/literature) from both sides speak the
> same bookish Bangla (sometimes from erudition and style -- has anyone
> heard Alokeranjan Dasgupta or Shamsur Rahman?) which also happens to be
> Kolkata's adaptation of Shantipuri dialect laced with constant
> innovations to play around with.
> Some of my esteemed Bangladeshi friends in the media 'try' to eradicate
> their zilla-specific accents and sound like Kolkatar lok but this
> becomes funny...
> I think the whole rainbow should be there - starting from BNakuRa to
> Chottogram, from KochBihar to Barisal with all their colorful varieties.
> Why just Kolkatar bhasha or Dhakar bhasha ?
I totally agree with you that all dialects should be recognised and not
constantly 'put down' by the plethora of 'standard Bengali' speakers, but I
realise that 'Standard' Bengali is here to stay and consequently will be
the principal form used for general discourse as well as literary
endeavours.
I include a brief section from "The Origin and Development of the Bengali
Language" by Suniti Kumar Chatterji for reference in case you are
interested.
"The dialects of Bengali fall into four main classes, agreeing with the
four ancient divisions of the country: Radha; Pundra or Varendra; Vanga;
and Kama-rupa. Radha and Varendra, and to some extent Kama-rupa, have
points of similarity which are absent in Vanga; and the extreme Eastern
forms of Vanga speech, in Sylhet, Kachar, Tippera, Noakhali and Chittagong,
have developed some phonetic and morphological characteristics which are
foreign to the other groups. A great deal of these have unquestionably an
ethnic basis. The differences in pronunciation and stress, as well as in
general enunciation and grammar, which are observable in the Bengali of a
Manbhum peasant, and in that of one from Maimansing, are certainly
connected with the fact that one is mainly Kol (or mixed Kol and
Dravidian), and the other modified Bodo (Tibeto-Burman), by origin.
An intermingling of dialects, in addition to the dominant influence of the
literary language, has made the question complicated. there were also class
dialects, spoken by members of the same class or case scattered over a
large area. Ever since the beginning of her history, Bengal has been
receiving settlements of people from the West, from Bihar, from the Benares
and Gorrakhpur side, from Oudh, from the Panjab, from Gujarat, and from the
South - from Orissa, and even from the Dravidian lands. Sometimes these
people were numerous enough to form self-contained communities, which
stereotyped themselves into particular castes, thanks to the exclusiveness
of medieval Hindu society; and when they became Bengali speakers, their
speeches often came to retain certain peculiarities, and merited the name
of 'class dialects'. The speech of respectable Brahmans and others
scattered all over the country would thus retain some class features,
mainly in vocabulary and idiom, occasionally in phonetics and morphology,
despite the approximation to local dialects. A respectable non-Brahman
caste of West Bengal, for example, has some peculiarities of speech, one of
which, the confusion between 'R' and 'r', is noticed in and about Calcutta
even now, although education is fast driving it out; and the Kaivarttas or
Bauris, Bhuin-malis or Rajbanshis, have their communal peculiarities in
speech. Communities which have exerted a dominant cultural influence, like
the Brahmans, have imposed their stamp on the speech as a whole. but as
this sort of communal inter-dialectal influencing has been going on for
centuries, guided in some cases by notions and theories of grammar and good
usage, nothing very much definite can be insisted upon it.
But there has been a certain amount of internal movement of population
within the country, from West to East Bengal, and back again, from East
Bengal to North Central Bengal, and from both these tracts to North Bengal.
Brahmans have shared in this movement more than other communities, perhaps.
There has been also mutual influence in the case of dialects which are
contiguous. The delta tract cannot be said to have any special dialect of
its own, unlike the other parts of Bengal. It is attached in the west to
West Bengali (Radha), and in the east to East Bengali (Vanga), with perhaps
the influence of Varendra in the north. In the border districts of the
delta, namely South Faridpur, East Nadiya, West Jessore, West Khulna, the
Radha and Vanga forms intermingle, where Radha influences Vanga. The speech
of the upper classes in the western part of the Delta and in Eastern Radha
gave the literary language to Bengal, and now the educated colloquial of
this tract, especially of the cities of Nadiya and Calcutta, has become the
standard one for Bengali, having come to the position which educated
Southern English now occupies in Great Britain and Ireland. "
Samir
Samir
>> For example, I was alarmed to hear someone on a road in Calcutta shout
> to an elderly man (a Muslim) who was on a bicycle - "Bangladesh-e phire
za"
> simply because he was holding up the traffic and because he was
> therefore a 'bangal' Muslim.
>
> >How could they tell he was one ?
> >
>
> >Shoumyo.
>
> Ekta golpo boli. Shedin kakima aar amaar kotha hocchilo Aastha bole ekti
> Hindi chobi niye. Uni naki cinema ta Kolkataye dekhechen "Chowringhee
> padai"; dekhte giye dekhen je onek lungi pora lok onar char paashe boshe
> cinema ta dekhche ebong cinema'r "oshleel" scene gulo'r shomoi khub
> jore-jore nijeder bhetore "comment-pass" korche. Ma shekanei chilen; keno
> jani na jiggesh korlen "ta ora kara chilo?". Kakima'r straight
uttar,"keno
> mollara; oi rokhom check lungi aar kara pore bolun!". Shedin bujhlam,
amra
> onekei manush'er posakh theke tar dhormo jene nite pari! Hoito shedin
hall'e
> shirt-pant pora onek chokrai chilo; tara nischoi shob hindu!
>
> -Joydeep
What a completely typical reaction!
My grandmother always told me that it was alright to wear a lungi inside
the house, but if I ever went outside wearing it people would think I was a
Muslim! On the other hand I have been told by relatives in Bangladesh that
Hindus don't wear dhotis in public for similar reasons, (i.e. the social
stigma attached to these so called 'assertions of ethnicity').
Does anyone know if this is actually the case?
Samir
Jayanta Bhadra
Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
>
> Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>
> > These days, I am often introduced as "Kolkata'r bangali" by some of my
> > Bangladeshi acquaintances. What on earth is that?
>
> It is worse sometimes: "India-r Bangali"...
>
Joydeep,
Ask your acquaintances to tell you a story of an exodus in 1947 if
they're not too shy...
-Jayanta
--
Jayanta Bhadra
IBM-Motorola Design Center, Austin, TX.
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <01bc778b$b3d3e860$5037...@www.btinternet.com.btinternet.com>,
Sa...@btinternet.com says...
>
>But isn't that the point, that the distinction is made purely on the basis
>of identity - that the language in Bangladesh is thought to have to be
>somehow fundamentally 'different' to the language spoken in Calcutta
>(India), because otherwise what is the point in having two separate
>countries?
Partition in 1947 was to do with perceived religious differences - nothing
to do with language.The Bangaldeshi Nationalists frequently highlight the
so-called language difference as "another example" of the justification of 2
[politically] separate Bengals. "jal" v. "pani" etc. But this is more to do
with creating an ideology to support artificial constructs and power groups
(cue flames).
>Similarly the words 'Bangali' and 'Bangladeshi' have almost come to
>represent two separate communities - the former 'Hindu' and the latter
>'Muslim'. I haven't come across many people who call themselves
>'Bangladeshi Hindus'.
Don't entirely agree - what about "bangali jatiyatabad"? I would argue that
"bangali" was not an identity commonly used by many Muslim Bengalis prior to
1947. The Nazruls were an exception. I read an article by Annada Shankar Roy
where he talks of a common perception "ora bangali, amra musalman" that
existed on both "sides" around the turn of the century. The 1947-71 period
however gave birth to a "bangali" identity amonst E Pakistani Muslims - but
this was germinating at a different pace and with different driving factors
from the "bangali" identity in WB.
>Personally, I hate all this 'categorising' - it
>really is so pointless and unhelpful!
Yes. I agree 100%.
>
>For example, I was alarmed to hear someone on a road in Calcutta shout to
>an elderly man (a Muslim) who was on a bicycle - "Bangladesh-e phire za" -
Sad - narrow minded communalism, and unfortunately, rampant.
>
>Anyway, I am not advocating that W. Bengal and Bangladesh should
>re-integrate into 'one' Bengal or even become part of India because I do
>not think that the deep distrust on both sides will ever disappear
>completely.
>
I think it will. And I pray it will.
However, I too would not advocate a redrawing of maps - the two Bengals have
enough political-economic problems to deal with and just look at Germany as
an example of a highly developed country which has had problems dealing with
re-unification.
>It has also been pointed out to me that the Bengali in Bangladesh is slowly
>changing to incorporate more words from a perso-arabic vocabulary, and even
It has different influences - and languages which are alive will be
influenced. Just count the number of
English-Portuguese-French-Turkish-Arabic-Persian words there are in Bengali
which existed prior to 1947.
It is also a case of "accepted Bengali" in Bangladesh being more accepting
of words which "Sanskritised" W Bengal (read Dhaka v. Calcutta) would try
and avoid. Subtle communalism and narrow-mindedness. Works on both sides;
read a lengthy article in a Bangladeshi magazine protesting at Sheikh
Hasina's use of the term "lokpal" for the ombudsman; the writer was
advocating that this was just pandering to "Indian masters" etc. - a word
constructed of Arabic-Persian (ie, Bangladesh's "natural" heritage) should
have been chosen for this important post. Go figure ...
>
>Thanks,
>
>Samir
>
Udayan
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <33A0E8...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>,
txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu says...
>
>I have not heard about the Bengali-written-in-Arabic scripts though.
>
There was an attempt to do this in the Pakistan period in the late 1940s and
early 1950s (1952 put a stop to any such efforts) - it has not been tried
since and there is no way it would work now.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pakistanis were successful in establishing
the Urdu script for Sindhi and Panjabi however. This was used in the 19th
century as well, but alongside the other scripts - which have disappeared in
modern day Pakistan. Shows how sinister things could have been if not for
21st February ...
Emran Khaleque
> >Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
> >
> >> These days, I am often introduced as "Kolkata'r bangali" by some of my
> >> Bangladeshi acquaintances. What on earth is that?
> >
> >It is worse sometimes: "India-r Bangali"...
> >
>
>
> Is it geographical, historical, cultural what?
>
> I think there are cogent arguments on all sides.
>
> And depending on our mental lattitude I guess we can talk
> about union or intersection of the above three.
>
> For example I want to remove supratik from the list and vice
> versa. ;)))
>
> is there an absolute standard?
>
> regards, siddhartha
I quite could not understand what the problem is if some one introduce
you a a indiar bangale. It minimises a lot of confussion with the
initial conversation. And after all we the bangalis of Bangladesh and
bangalis of India do have some differences, don't we?
-Emran
Abhijit Mitra
On 13 Jun 1997, Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:
> >Anyway, I am not advocating that W. Bengal and Bangladesh should
> >re-integrate into 'one' Bengal or even become part of India because I do
> >not think that the deep distrust on both sides will ever disappear
> >completely.
> I think it will. And I pray it will.
You think it will? Well I personally doubt it. True, I believe Bengal
*should* have been one, but the facts are its not. And almost 50 years of
partition have created two very different 'bengals'. Any "reunification"
is now merely a romantic pipe dream.
> It is also a case of "accepted Bengali" in Bangladesh being more accepting
> of words which "Sanskritised" W Bengal (read Dhaka v. Calcutta) would try
> and avoid. Subtle communalism and narrow-mindedness. Works on both sides;
> read a lengthy article in a Bangladeshi magazine protesting at Sheikh
> Hasina's use of the term "lokpal" for the ombudsman; the writer was
> advocating that this was just pandering to "Indian masters" etc. - a word
> constructed of Arabic-Persian (ie, Bangladesh's "natural" heritage) should
> have been chosen for this important post. Go figure ...
Well, why not leave it to the Bangladeshis to choose what they would
regard as their "natural" heritage? If they choose Arabic-Persian over
Bangla, we certainly should not condemn them; nor should we insinuate that
they are 'wrong'.
And about the original discussion abt the difference between Bengali and
Bangla, I would like to put in my two cents, if I may. I think its
basically a matter of semantics. I also believe we should look beyond
these petty linguistic differences and recognize that Bangla is one
language. Two or a thousand different dialects will not change that.
Samir
Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote in article <5nscqu$c...@neon.btinternet.com>...
> Partition in 1947 was to do with perceived religious differences -
nothing
> to do with language. The Bangaldeshi Nationalists frequently highlight
the
> so-called language difference as "another example" of the justification
of 2
> [politically] separate Bengals. "jal" v. "pani" etc. But this is more to
do
> with creating an ideology to support artificial constructs and power
groups
> (cue flames).
Yes, that may be so, but today language (especially in the sub-continent)
has become yet another issue which has become inextricably linked with that
of national and religious identities. I completely agree with you when you
say that it is solely for the purpose of supporting 'artificial
constructs', but how do you propose to
convince the general population of this fact? That the whole basis for the
existence of a country they belong to is in fact based on such unstable and
shaky foundations is something that will never be accepted lightly.
> >Similarly the words 'Bangali' and 'Bangladeshi' have almost come to
> >represent two separate communities - the former 'Hindu' and the latter
> >'Muslim'. I haven't come across many people who call themselves
> >'Bangladeshi Hindus'.
>
> Don't entirely agree - what about "bangali jatiyatabad"? I would argue
that
> "bangali" was not an identity commonly used by many Muslim Bengalis prior
to
> 1947. The Nazruls were an exception. I read an article by Annada Shankar
Roy
> where he talks of a common perception "ora bangali, amra musalman" that
> existed on both "sides" around the turn of the century.
'Bangali jatiyatabad' (or Bengali nationalism) was a philosophy that
originally sprung up after the proposed partition of the province of Bengal
into West and East in 1905 by the British. At that time it was the mainstay
of Bengali Hindus while the Muslims were basically ignored. (see Ghare
Baire by Tagore for further info).
> The 1947-71 period however gave birth to a "Bangali" identity amongst E
Pakistani > Muslims - but this was germinating at a different pace and
with different driving
> factors from the "Bangali" identity in WB.
Not strictly accurate. I include a quote from "Shobak: An Oral history of
the Creation of Bangladesh" by Naeem Mohaiemen.
" As nationalism and separatism began to develop among the Bengalis, one
dominant aspect of the new Bengali self-definition was an emphasis on
secularism. Hindu writers began to come to the fore, and Muslim writers and
artists also avoided "Islamic" themes in their work. Sometimes the works
were even blatantly atheistic, a significant risk in Ayub Khan's Pakistan.
Bengali historians have claimed that secularism was an "inherent" core of
Bengali culture-- therefore, it was only a matter of time before that
element expressed itself through all aspects of Bengali life. But, my
earlier research clearly indicated that Bengali culture, as developed in
British India, had large elements of Hindu life embedded in it. Thus, this
trend towards secularism was not necessarily a logical progression. Rather
the dominant impetus for this was the Bengali frustration with the "Muslim
homeland". One avenue to express frustration was to turn their backs on
"Islamic values". Often this took on the extreme form of actively seeking
out elements of Hindu rituals, which would then be infused with vigor into
the new Bengali cultural idiom. This strong Hindu influence also became
important as a tool to differentiate themselves from the increasingly alien
Urdu speaking population. Again, during the interviews, a contrast was
found between the two generations. Older Muslims who remembered cultural
subjugation of pre-partition days were often angry that Hindu elements were
returning with vigor. But younger Muslims, who had never known the feeling
of being a religious minority (rather they were dominated on the basis of
their cultural identity), welcomed the Hindu elements and often glorified
them. It seemed then that this secularism was more of a defense mechanism
and reaction to the Urdu-speaker domination, rather than something natural
and inherent in Bengali culture.
For the 1940s generation, both in East Pakistan and West Pakistan,
anti-India paranoia was a dominant piece of their self-definition. This
fear, along with its elements of anti-Hindu feelings, dominated their
reaction to most national developments. Thus, Sheikh Mujib and the Awami
League were untrustworthy because they were "too much the pa-chata [feet
licker] of the Hindus". Tagore should be banned and avoided because, Nobel
prize or not, he was a Hindu poet. Conversely, the younger generation of
Bengalis were not only free of these confines, their reaction to West
Pakistani domination was often to embrace cultural elements with strong
links to India, such as the films of Uttam Kumar, the clothes worn by
modern Calcutta men, and the West Bengali babu style of speaking-- much to
the chagrin of their virulently anti-Indian elders. In the two decades
between the partition of India and the division of Pakistan, few elements
of Bengali life and practice developed independently-- everything was in
reaction to and protest against some form of domination, be it cultural or
political. These contradictions readily manifested themselves in
independent Bangladesh, once the West Pakistani "outsider" was removed.
Thus, after 1971, anti-Hindu elements again rose up and began to seep into
the Muslim Bengali consciousness. "
> >Anyway, I am not advocating that W. Bengal and Bangladesh should
> >re-integrate into 'one' Bengal or even become part of India because I do
> >not think that the deep distrust on both sides will ever disappear
> >completely.
> >
>
> I think it will. And I pray it will.
>
> However, I too would not advocate a redrawing of maps - the two Bengals
have
> enough political-economic problems to deal with and just look at Germany
as
> an example of a highly developed country which has had problems dealing
with
> re-unification.
How would you propose that two Bengals reunite? With such resentment and
distrust and years of propaganda against the 'other side', how will the
people of West Bengal and Bangladesh accept each other like brothers? If
this were not he case, I would also pray that they re-unite someday because
I think the whole basis for partition was misguided and completely wrong.
Religion has alot to answer for in South Asia, and it is only when religion
can be put aside that these differences can be resolved.
You simply must read "The Shadow Lines" by Amitav Ghosh which is all about
the absurdities of borders and frontiers and 'the lines of disillusion and
tragedy that intersect with private lives and public events' It is possibly
the most powerful novel I have read on the subject, apart from maybe 'Purba
Pashchim' by Sunil Gangopadhyay.
> It has different influences - and languages which are alive will be
> influenced. Just count the number of
English-Portuguese-French-Turkish-Arabic-
> Persian words there are in Bengali which existed prior to 1947.
> It is also a case of "accepted Bengali" in Bangladesh being more
accepting
> of words which "Sanskritised" W Bengal (read Dhaka v. Calcutta) would try
> and avoid. Subtle communalism and narrow-mindedness. Works on both sides;
> read a lengthy article in a Bangladeshi magazine protesting at Sheikh
> Hasina's use of the term "lokpal" for the ombudsman; the writer was
> advocating that this was just pandering to "Indian masters" etc. - a word
> constructed of Arabic-Persian (ie, Bangladesh's "natural" heritage)
should
> have been chosen for this important post. Go figure ...
I am fully aware of the huge number of foreign loan words that exist in
Bengali, but what I meant was that the language is subtly being filled up
with more than it's fair share of perso-arabic words. I read in a newspaper
the other day: <Ami tomar jonno intezaar korbo na...> why not use the word
opekka or protikha? Of course, as you say, this works both ways and the
language has been gradually more and more sanskritized in W. Bengal as
well. Will people in Bangladesh be able to understand the Bengali spoken in
W. Calcutta in say 100 years, and vice versa? I know you have said that
there is no way writing Bengali in Arabic script would work now, but I read
recently that this question has again been raised by the 'Razakar' Golam
Azam. I know his party do not enjoy alot of support in Bangladesh, but I am
surprised that this suggestion has not been rejected outright.
Samir
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Emran Khaleque wrote:
> And after all we the bangalis of Bangladesh and
> bangalis of India do have some differences, don't we?
Emran:
When I meet a fellow Bangali, I am already happy to find how similar we
are (cholen maachcher jhal bhorta raindha khai) than try to find
differences.
The human species has this unique mysterious power by which, unlike the
animal kingdom, they can engulf differences and asssimilate, if they
want to.
Regards,
Shoumyo.
http://cac.psu.edu/~txd111
-----------------------------------------------------------
Samir
> I quite could not understand what the problem is if some one introduce
> you a a indiar bangale. It minimises a lot of confussion with the
> initial conversation. And after all we the bangalis of Bangladesh and
> bangalis of India do have some differences, don't we?
> -Emran
What differences are you talking about?
Religion? Culture? Bengali dialects? Food? Dress?
Samir
Abhijit Mitra
"Samir" <Sa...@btinternet.com> writes:
>What differences are you talking about?
>Religion? Culture? Bengali dialects? Food? Dress?
>Samir
As far as I know, Bengalis on both sides eat pretty much the same thing and
dress more less the same way. But religion, culture and dialects do make us
different enough to be regarded as different people.
So, even though im an Indian Bangali, I would tend to agree with Emran about us
being "different"; for the very simple reason that we are... despite our
similarities.
Siddhartha Duttagupta
In article <01bc7923$26467820$Loca...@www.btinternet.com.btinternet.com>,
Samir <Sa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>Abhijit Mitra <mi...@remus.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>> As far as I know, Bengalis on both sides eat pretty much the same thing
>and
>> dress more less the same way. But religion, culture and dialects do make
>
>So tell me, as an 'Indian Bangali', what are the great similarities you
>have with an 'Indian Tamil' or an 'Indian Gujarati' for example?? Apart
>from Hindu 'religious values', what is it exactly that you have in common
>with people from the other regions of India?
>
Guys this is too narrow. If we do not claim ghoti, bangal to be bengalis
(for that matter bati;)) we are not going anywhere.
I have some friends who grew up with me who inspite of being "non-bengalis"
went to bengali school, ate macher jhol inspite of their parents
being strict vegetarians (their mothers will cook for them though),
loved reading "Feluda", learnt Rabindrasangeet, and "stole" kul from
the trees before anjali time for Saraswati Puja.
At least two of them have complained that in a bengali majority
company they were referred to derogatorily (in bengali off course).
On other occassions they could "feel" that they are being
tolerated. How british;))
Two people don't make statistics, but have you guys ever seen this
happen
In mixed company bengalis are very liberal (like anondo said
will change their names to accomoda eyou) but given a critical
mass the dynamics change rapidly IMHO This has been my experience
especially with Bengali associations here.
Particularly in Rochester, a marathi friend of mine desperately wanted to
join the BA. Offcourse he had ulterior designs;))
but whatever the reason he was DENIED entry for two years till
I forcibly brought him along. I could see my pride of being
a bengali deflating in front of his eyes.
I am not suggesting that bengalis are worse than anyother
community in India (Detroit has a number of Tamil sangams
a newcomer who was a cousin of my room-mate was denied entry
and asked to enter the sangam for newcomers;)).
Its just that our cultural richness seems to go hand in hand
with a tinge of xenophobia. And THAT does not make sense.
comments, anybody?
regards, siddhartha
.
Samir
Abhijit Mitra <mi...@remus.rutgers.edu> wrote:
> As far as I know, Bengalis on both sides eat pretty much the same thing
and
> dress more less the same way. But religion, culture and dialects do make
us
> different enough to be regarded as different people.
>
> So, even though im an Indian Bangali, I would tend to agree with Emran
about us
> being "different"; for the very simple reason that we are... despite our
> similarities.
So tell me, as an 'Indian Bangali', what are the great similarities you
have with an 'Indian Tamil' or an 'Indian Gujarati' for example?? Apart
from Hindu 'religious values', what is it exactly that you have in common
with people from the other regions of India?
What about the huge Muslim population in India? Correct me if I'm wrong,
but you seem to be implying that they are a different people/race. Is it
possible to be Indian and Muslim, in your opinion?
As for Cuisine, any self respecting 'Bangal' (from East Bengal!) or Ghoti
(from West Bengal) knows that there are some major differences in the food.
I will give you some examples: Ghotis fry their fish until it is the
consistency of leather! Ghotis add sugar to their Dal, vegetables and
sometimes even their 'Maacher Jhol'. While Bangals do not fry their fish
they add chillis to everything, cook their 'Maacher jhol' with onions and
garlic, and eat smelly shutki maach ! (dried fish).
However both Ghotis and Bangals are united on their love for 'mishti',
especially roshogulla, pantua and mishti doi!
______________________________________________________________________
Samir
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <5nvfsc$c...@galaxy.ee.rochester.edu>, Siddhartha Duttagupta
says...
[...]
>Its just that our cultural richness seems to go hand in hand
>with a tinge of xenophobia. And THAT does not make sense.
>
>comments, anybody?
>
>regards, siddhartha
Siddhartha:
Cultural richness is often accompanied by a strong (sometimes fanatical)
desire to (a) preserve that richness (that is not allow it be diluted by outside
influences), and (b) make admission to (and exit from) that richness extremely
regulated and restricted. That is the defining hallmark of all stagnant
culturally rich societies. This hallmark extended to the Victorian English
society and the old Jewish culture, as well to as the bengali culture which
(possibly?) acquired its cultural xenophobia from the British, and possesses
the religious xenophobia of the Jews. For an elaboration along similar themes,
read Robert Pirsig's (now not-so-new) novel Lila.
It is possible that this stagnancy is optimal in a larger social sense. For
example, it may appear to many that the American society is culturally
dynamic and does not conform to the patterns described in (a) and (b) above.
But such appearances might be entirely deceptive; mere attempts to shroud a
deep sense of xenophobia by superficial political correctness. I much prefer
living among xenophobes if they come out and say they are xenophobes
instead of hiding behind a false visage of PC behavior. But then thats me.
-Joydeep
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <01bc78bb$8a631ce0$783c...@www.btinternet.com.btinternet.com>,
Sa...@btinternet.com says...
>
>Not strictly accurate. I include a quote from "Shobak: An Oral history of
>the Creation of Bangladesh" by Naeem Mohaiemen.
>
>" As nationalism and separatism began to develop among the Bengalis, one
>dominant aspect of the new Bengali self-definition was an emphasis on
>secularism. Hindu writers began to come to the fore, and Muslim writers and
>artists also avoided "Islamic" themes in their work.
Yes - but my point was that the "Bengali identity" was evolving at a
different rate and in a different direction in E Pakistan in the 1947-71
period from any such changes in W Bengal during the same period. A *big*
difference was obviously (given the demands for independence as opposed to
merger with India) was a Bengali idendity independent of India in E Pakistan
compared to a Bengali identity as a subset of a larer Indian one in W B.
For this and many other reasons (greater threat to survival - need for 1952
etc) I would argue that the Bengali identity is much stronger amongst those
who consider themselves to be so in BD as opposed to WB ("hum to sab Bangali
hain yaar ").
Now of course, threatened by Hindi / global cultural invasions, W Bengalis
are suddenly "discovering" that they have 120 million Bengali brothers on
the other side of the border they did not know about ... perhaps gives them
a security blanket.
>How would you propose that two Bengals reunite? With such resentment and
>distrust and years of propaganda against the 'other side', how will the
>people of West Bengal and Bangladesh accept each other like brothers? If
>this were not he case, I would also pray that they re-unite someday because
>I think the whole basis for partition was misguided and completely wrong.
>Religion has alot to answer for in South Asia,
Common acceptance of this would be a start. The way in which in Europe,
officially at least (ie, what is publicly acceptable, what is taught in
schools, etc) Germany has accepted that it was an agressor in WWII. I'm not
drawing parallels suggesting that one side was to blame in 1947, but
suggesting that similar "apologies" (from all sides), similar history books
in schools, etc, are necessary. What is needed is for school kids in
Calcutta to know about Ekushe February and those in Dhaka to know about the
Naxalite movement etc.
>can be put aside that these differences can be resolved.
>You simply must read "The Shadow Lines" by Amitav Ghosh which is all about
>the absurdities of borders and frontiers
Excellent book.
>tragedy that intersect with private lives and public events' It is possibly
>the most powerful novel I have read on the subject, apart from maybe 'Purba
>Pashchim' by Sunil Gangopadhyay.
>
Less said on that one, the better ...!
> Will people in Bangladesh be able to understand the Bengali spoken in
>W. Calcutta in say 100 years, and vice versa?
If there is interaction (reading each other's books, watching each other's
tv, films, etc), yes. Note how in Britain we can follow American films
despite different slang, influcneces from their immigrant communities, etc.
When "Birds of a Feather" or "EastEnders" are shown in the US, many networks
carry subtitles, because Americans have less exposure to these
dialects/accents whan we do to theirs.
>I know you have said that
>there is no way writing Bengali in Arabic script would work now, but I read
>recently that this question has again been raised by the 'Razakar' Golam
>Azam. I know his party do not enjoy alot of support in Bangladesh, but I am
>surprised that this suggestion has not been rejected outright.
>
In BD, there are a huge number of magazines and newspapers of different
ideological persuasion, and this distorts what is "acceptable" in public
opinion. I'm surprised at Golam Azam's suggestion - Bengali is no longer
perceived by anyone as a "Hindu" language. In fact, I've come across several
"learn Bengali" guides where "hello" is given as "assalaamu alaikum".
>Samir
>
Udayan
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <1997Jun14...@aardvark.ou.edu>, mbho...@aardvark.ou.edu
says...
>
> Don't want to shock you, but the following lines were
> written by poet Abdul Hakim around 1690--some 257 years before 1947 !
>
> " Jey jon Bangeyte jonmey hingshey Bongobani
> Shey jon kahar jonmo nirnoy na jani ".
>
> That may be the first declaration of Bangali Jatiotabad .
>
>
> Best wishes,
> Bilayet Hossain.
>
Yes, I know it ...
My point was more to do with the separate evolution of identity by Hindu
Bengalis and Muslim Bengalis (precipitated by British involvement and the
closer relations of Hindus with the new rulers). The impression I have is
that -
in the C19, right upto 1905-12, "Bengali identity" was a force being driven
by Hindus predominantly - not entirely, but mainly so - thereafter, slumber
(and stagnation after 1947)
1947-71 - predominantly by Muslims in East Pakistan
not a communally driven result - but through circumstance -
ie, "renaissance" figures were from a certain social class from which
Muslims happened to be absent as opposed to Muslims being excluded from this
new "Bengali club"
Muslims of course were heavily represented in folk culture at this time, but
this was completely ignored by the figures in Calcutta, hence exclusion from
the developing of this new identity ...
post 1947, in East Pakistan, figures were predominantly Muslim, because this
new country had been created for areas which had predominantly Muslim
populations. This period of Bengali identity evolution was much more secular
(if not entirely so) compared to the one developing in Calcutta in the
previous century
This type of "identity" movement is more to do with the masses than with the
odd poet. Also to do with socio-economic factors. How many Hindu peasants in
the 1900s would have said "amra bangali" I wonder?
Regards
Udayan
Denis Wright
Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
> 3. to my ears, Bangla sounds more sweet than Bengali, despite the fact
> that throughout my school days, my training had been in English
> medium...
I can understand that. Bangla and Bengali, maybe it's just like pAni and
jal......
Denis
_______
| Dr D A Wright History Dept Uni of New England Armidale |
| NSW AUSTRALIA 2351 Ph +61 67 732479 Fax +61 67 733520 |
|____ http://www.une.edu.au/~arts/History/dwright.htm ___|
Abhijit Mitra
"Samir" <Sa...@btinternet.com> writes:
>So tell me, as an 'Indian Bangali', what are the great similarities you
>have with an 'Indian Tamil' or an 'Indian Gujarati' for example?? Apart
>from Hindu 'religious values', what is it exactly that you have in common
>with people from the other regions of India?
Why is it that you exclude Hindu 'religious values'? Do they have no meaning
for you at all? I am well aware of the differences in the practice of Hinduism
across India but nevertheless, it is the one thing that binds the nation
together... and NO, i am not a communalist :-) Hinduism to me is more than
simply a religion - it is a way of life and more importantly, it is my
IDENTITY... and that of around 700 million other Indians (i may have the number
somewhat wrong, but you get my point).
>What about the huge Muslim population in India? Correct me if I'm wrong,
>but you seem to be implying that they are a different people/race. Is it
>possible to be Indian and Muslim, in your opinion?
Ok, allow me to clarify my position here. They are different. As are Hindu
Tamils and Hindu Punjabis and Christian Manipuris. They are just as different
as they are, but that in no way whatsoever makes them not Indian. India is the
home to people of various cultures/religions/languages, all of whom are as
Indian as the rest. However, it would be dumb to just assume they are all the
same since theyre not. In doing so, you would be taking away one of Indias most
prized possesions - its rich diversity. It is this diversity that makes us what
we are. It is the capability to have such a diverse populace and still have
allegiance to one nation, 'Bharat', that makes India what it is. As such,
insinuating that we are the same would do nothing but take away what is most
valuable to us.
In conclusion, allow me to reiterate at the risk of sounding repetitive -
"different" does not in any way imply that they dont belong here. All it does
is recognize the differences that do exist and embrace them.
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <1997061523...@ppp-021.une.edu.au>,
denis...@bigfoot.com says...
>
>Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>
>> 3. to my ears, Bangla sounds more sweet than Bengali, despite the fact
>> that throughout my school days, my training had been in English
>> medium...
>
>I can understand that. Bangla and Bengali, maybe it's just like pAni and
>jal......
>
>Denis
Now that's ammunition for a whole new thread entirely ... :)
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <01bc78bc$dd850b80$783c...@www.btinternet.com.btinternet.com>,
Sa...@btinternet.com says...
>
>
>> I quite could not understand what the problem is if some one introduce
>> you a a indiar bangale. It minimises a lot of confussion with the
>> initial conversation. And after all we the bangalis of Bangladesh and
>> bangalis of India do have some differences, don't we?
>> -Emran
>
>
>Religion? Culture? Bengali dialects? Food? Dress?
>
>
>Samir
>
ie, differences which exist between Dhaka, Sylhet, Chittagong, Barisal or
Calcutta, Jalpaiguri, Cooch Behar, Maldaha ...
or perhaps different dialects of propaganda inhaled at various instances?
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <33A2BD...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>,
txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu says...
>
>When I meet a fellow Bangali, I am already happy to find how similar we
>are (cholen maachcher jhal bhorta raindha khai) than try to find
>differences.
>
Ami kintu maacher je kono preparation-i shojjo kortey pari na ...
>
>Shoumyo.
>
Udayan
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Denis Wright wrote:
> Bangla and Bengali, maybe it's just like pAni and
> jal......
I didn't get that one... I like both versions of this particular word.
By the way, I know that you know, Dennis, that a majority of Indians
(Hindus and Muslims alike) say paNi. Jol is a word used ONLY by Hindu
Bengalis.
Warm Regards to a wintry Oz...
Shoumyo.
Samir
A English friend of mine at SOAS, who is learning Hindi, asked me the other
day what the words for cold water would be in Hindi. I replied that it
would probably be 'Thanda pAni' to which she said that I was definitely
wrong because her teacher had just taught her that it was 'sheetal jal'!!
It was in her text book as well as being 'sheetal jal'!! Now is that
'ethnic cleansing' or what??!!
Samir
Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote in article
Siddhartha Duttagupta
In article <5o1dg0$k...@neon.btinternet.com>,
Udayan Chattopadhyay <Uch...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>In article <01bc78bc$dd850b80$783c...@www.btinternet.com.btinternet.com>,
>Sa...@btinternet.com says...
>>
>>
>>> bangalis of India do have some differences, don't we?
>>
>>
>>Religion? Culture? Bengali dialects? Food? Dress?
>>
You said it Udayan.
My grandmother's sister (comilla) married in dhaka and was always
accused of being from Noakhali because she used to put too many chilies
in the food;))
So if I know you are from Noakhali then I will bring my Pepcid AC
with me to dinner.
Rather as citizen of midnapore I will just swallow a thousand
"pans".
regards, siddhartha
sayan bhattacharyya
Joydeep Bhattacharya <joyd...@rcf.usc.edu> wrote:
>
>Cultural richness is often accompanied by a strong (sometimes fanatical)
>desire to (a) preserve that richness (that is not allow it be diluted by outside
>influences), and (b) make admission to (and exit from) that richness extremely
>regulated and restricted.
Joydeep: I am curious why you think that "exit from" that richness is also
restricted? I think voluntary exit from the culture (or class) one was born to, is always possible.
It may be difficult, of course. For example if one is born into bhadralok
"culture" then certain bhadralok pathologies become almost second nature and
instinctive and it is very hard to get rid of these pathologies. But surely
it is upto the individual to "deculturize" oneself, and no one can "restrict"
someone who is determined to get rid of her cultural trait. The restrictions
on exit, if any, seem to me to be largely self-imposed.
Saif Ahmed
denis...@bigfoot.com (Denis Wright) writes:
> Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>
> > 3. to my ears, Bangla sounds more sweet than Bengali, despite the fact
> > that throughout my school days, my training had been in English
> > medium...
>
> jal......
pAni and jal are both Bangla (or Bengali words), though they are used
with different frequencies depending on which part of Bengal you're
from. Bangla and Bengali are more like Chattapoddhay and Chatterjee.
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <5o2k9n$im9$1...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu>, sayan bhattacharyya
says...
Sayan: your point is well taken. Now often what happens is that you dislike a
certain portion of a culture but overall, you may still like that culture and
broadly identify with it. I guess I was thinking of situations where people face
credible threats of being evicted from the culture/religion even though they
broadly like their culture. Thus, "ek-ghore kore dewa"-r threat might be
sufficient to induce pasive acceptance of ALL aspects of a culture/religion.
-Joydeep
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <vanvi3e...@csxt.cs.oberlin.edu>, sah...@csxt.cs.oberlin.edu
says...
There was an entertaining article on this in The Statesman (Calcutta) a
couple of months ago. Apparently there are 32 spellings of Chakrabarti (with
wild ones like Chukerwerty) and loads of variations on most common Bengali
names in the Calcutta telephone directory and in other places. The WB
government recently tried to standardise all names - usually resorting to a
"adi" authenticity attempt - ie, Ganguly, Gangoolee, etc would all become
Gangopadhyay - playing havoc for people with degree certificates / passports
/ identification documents etc. in differing forms.
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <01bc79e6$702d7ec0$8833...@www.btinternet.com.btinternet.com>,
Sa...@btinternet.com says...
>
>
>A English friend of mine at SOAS, who is learning Hindi, asked me the other
>day what the words for cold water would be in Hindi. I replied that it
>would probably be 'Thanda pAni' to which she said that I was definitely
>wrong because her teacher had just taught her that it was 'sheetal jal'!!
>It was in her text book as well as being 'sheetal jal'!! Now is that
>'ethnic cleansing' or what??!!
>
"Sheetal Jal" is, I find, one of the funniest signposts in stations in
India.
In WB, of course, the water fountains have the sign "Paniya jal" ... BJP-ra
eley ki eta joliyo jol hoye jabey??
Out of curiousity, has anyone seen the jal chukti/pani chukti treaty in the
Bengali version? What do they use - given that it was officially
disseminated in both WB and BD?
Samir
> In WB, of course, the water fountains have the sign "Paniya jal" ...
BJP-ra
> eley ki eta joliyo jol hoye jabey??
probably...
> Out of curiousity, has anyone seen the jal chukti/pani chukti treaty in
the
> Bengali version? What do they use - given that it was officially
> disseminated in both WB and BD?
Naturally they say 'pani chukti' in Bangladesh and 'jal chukti' in WB!
T.H.Sanyal.
In article <5o07m6$b...@neon.btinternet.com>, Uch...@btinternet.com (Udayan
Chattopadhyay) says:
>in the C19, right upto 1905-12, "Bengali identity" was a force being driven
>by Hindus predominantly - not entirely, but mainly so - thereafter, slumber
>(and stagnation after 1947)
As I understand it, after the 1905 partition of Bengal presidency was
replaced by a new partition (more or less along linguistic lines),
Chitta Ranjan Das had reached some understanding with the Muslim
leaders of Bengal to address their concerns (the Bengal Pact). This
pact could have continued as a basis for Hindu-Muslim cooperation
in Bengal. However, this pact was later discarded by Congress leaders
(after passing away of Chitta Ranjan Das).
ths.
Kalpataru Barman
Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
>
> Denis Wright wrote:
>
> > Bangla and Bengali, maybe it's just like pAni and
> > jal......
>
> By the way, I know that you know, Dennis, that a majority of Indians
> (Hindus and Muslims alike) say paNi. Jol is a word used ONLY by Hindu
> Bengalis.
West Bengal-er Muslim Bangali-ra graame gonje kintu jol-i bolen.
Tobey keu keu pani-o boltey paren. Aasoley eta bodh-hoi more of
regional than religious effect.
sayan bhattacharyya
In article <33A625...@mail-me.com>,
"ami desh bhenge bhenge dukhan korechhi
hindu musalmani,
mukher bhashay deoal tulechhi:
ei jol -- oi pani !
ami sob-i mani sob-i mani
shudhu mani na jokhon rahim paran
bhayera mukti chay,
tara dubela-i khete chay,
aha pakostholee-te islam nei,
nei ko hinduani,
tate jaha jol taha pani"
-- singer-songwriter Suman Chatterjee
Soumitra Bose
Emran Khaleque wrote:
>
> Siddhartha Duttagupta wrote:
> >
> > In article <33A09E...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>,
> > Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
> > >Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
> > >
> > >> These days, I am often introduced as "Kolkata'r bangali" by some of my
> > >> Bangladeshi acquaintances. What on earth is that?
> > >
> > >It is worse sometimes: "India-r Bangali"...
> > >
> >
> > Bangalir definition ki, this is an important question.
> >
> > Is it geographical, historical, cultural what?
> >
> > I think there are cogent arguments on all sides.
> >
> > And depending on our mental lattitude I guess we can talk
> > about union or intersection of the above three.
> >
> > For example I want to remove supratik from the list and vice
> > versa. ;)))
> >
> > is there an absolute standard?
> >
> > regards, siddhartha
>
> I quite could not understand what the problem is if some one introduce
> you a a indiar bangale. It minimises a lot of confussion with the
> bangalis of India do have some differences, don't we?
BTW , banglai kotha bolar shomoie bangladesheera shobshomoi "India"
kimba "Celcutta " (Calcutta uccharon tao thik hoi na ) keno bole ,
bangla bhashai to deshtar naam Bharot , tai na ??? Amar ek bangladeshi
bondhu r mote eta naki ekdhoroner supto samprodayik probhab, eta ki
thik?. Jemon apnio to bollen "india r bangalee" keno "bharoter bangalee
" ba "bharotiyo bangalee " ei shobdo ta mathai elo na keno bolun to ????
Just curious , plain curious ....
Soumitra
Soumitra Bose
Samir wrote:
>
> Udayan Chattopadhyay <Uch...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > Yes - but my point was that the "Bengali identity" was evolving at a
> > different rate and in a different direction in E Pakistan in the 1947-71
> > period from any such changes in W Bengal during the same period. A *big*
> > difference was obviously (given the demands for independence as opposed
> to
> Pakistan
> > compared to a Bengali identity as a subset of a larger Indian one in W B.
> > For this and many other reasons (greater threat to survival - need for
> 1952
> > etc) I would argue that the Bengali identity is much stronger amongst
> those
> > who consider themselves to be so in BD as opposed to WB ("hum to sab
> Bangali
> > hain yaar ").
>
> but is this 'alternate' culture really comparable to the 'Bengali culture'
> that developed in West Bengal during this period? From having talked to
> people from both sides of the border, I can only say that there is
> something that distinctly marks the whole Bangladesh 'experience' apart
> from the one of their West Bengali counter part. The people of Bangladesh
> have fought hard for their language, so it means that much more to them.
> Ironically, the fact that people of West Bengal have not had to fight a war
> over their language has almost made them complacent and as a result Bengali
> is in a state of decline there. Whereas in Bangladesh Bengali continues to
> go from strength to strength.
>
> >> I think the whole basis for partition was misguided and completely
> wrong.
> >> Religion has alot to answer for in South Asia,
>
> > Common acceptance of this would be a start. The way in which in Europe,
> > officially at least (ie, what is publicly acceptable, what is taught in
> not
> > drawing parallels suggesting that one side was to blame in 1947, but
> > suggesting that similar "apologies" (from all sides), similar history
> books
> > in schools, etc, are necessary. What is needed is for school kids in
> > Calcutta to know about Ekushe February and those in Dhaka to know about
> the
> > Naxalite movement etc.
>
> really cares any more. People are so used to living with the 'other side',
> that they don't really feel that they have anything to gain by finding out
> about each other. However as far as literature goes, people in Bangladesh
> definitely read more literature from Calcutta than the other way round.
>
> > > 'Purba Pashchim' by Sunil Gangopadhyay.
> >
> > Less said on that one, the better ...!
>
>
> > > Will people in Bangladesh be able to understand the Bengali spoken in
> > >W. Calcutta in say 100 years, and vice versa?
> >
> > If there is interaction (reading each other's books, watching each
> other's
> > tv, films, etc), yes. Note how in Britain we can follow American films
> > despite different slang, influcneces from their immigrant communities,
> etc.
> > When "Birds of a Feather" or "EastEnders" are shown in the US, many
> networks
> > carry subtitles, because Americans have less exposure to these
> dialects/accents
> > whan we do to theirs.
>
> at a cinema in Calcutta last year (subtitled of course!), and I remember
> the warm reception it received by the audience who were obviously moved by
> the film. Instead of banning each other's films, why can't there be more
> joint ventures like this between Bangladesh and West Bengal I wonder?
>
> > >I know you have said that
> > >there is no way writing Bengali in Arabic script would work now, but I
> read
> > >recently that this question has again been raised by the 'Razakar' Golam
> > >Azam. I know his party do not enjoy alot of support in Bangladesh, but I
> am
> > >surprised that this suggestion has not been rejected outright.
>
> publication in my opinion) a few months ago. Here is the relevant section.
>
> : Gulam Azam: A war Criminal Speaks
> : Recently in Bangladesh, Gulam Azam addressed a seminar organised by the
> Jamat
> : Party, during his speech he said, "The language practiced in Bangladesh
> is not the
> : language of Muslims, the Bengali language propagated by Rabindranath
> Tagore and
> : Bankim Chandra is for Hindus".
> :
> : He went onto say that after 1971, due to the anti Urdu stance of the
> Bengali people,
> : and the pro West Bengal sentiments, the Islamic words have been taken out
> of the
> : Bengali language. He said, the English man, William Cary got rid of the
> Muslim
> : words and replaced them with the Bengali language of Hindus.
> :
> : He called for the campaign to re-instate the language of the Muslims into
> the Bengali : language.
>
> > In BD, there are a huge number of magazines and newspapers of different
> > ideological persuasion, and this distorts what is "acceptable" in public
> > opinion. I'm surprised at Golam Azam's suggestion - Bengali is no longer
> > perceived by anyone as a "Hindu" language.
>
> 'Nirbachito Kolam' by Taslima Nasrin, there are some clear examples of this
> cited by her (see pages 150 - 152). She quotes the poet Farhad Mazhar as
> saying <je bAnglA bhAshA AmAder desh-e prachalita tA nireT pashchimbang-er
> bhAshA, AmAder noy....bAnglAdesh-er nijash(w)a bhAshA toiri korte
> Arbi-fArsi shabdasamriddha Amader 'zabAner bhAshAke' lekhAlekhite tule AnA
> dorkAr bole tini mone koren> This view is by no means held by the majority
> of Bangladeshis (I think), but the religious authorites are slowly but
> surely gaining the upper hand and consequently are able to influence the
> views of ordinary people in the name of so called 'religion'.
Farhad came to Newyork and said an exactly opposite thing. Maverick as
he is , he changes his statements depending on the audience. He and one
of his close comrades explained to me that "Jabaner Bhasha " means
mukher bhasha because Jaban means tongue, this is not right , "JubaN" as
a understand from Urdu is the langue (not language - in the french or
Derridian connotation) . Anyway , once said that group needs a lot of
explanation to make to change their connotations. Recently with more and
more patronizing from Gayatri Spivak, Farhad has changed lot of his
previous ideas (of the Ebadaatnama times).
More and more Sanskritization , which was done from Fort William College
by MadanMohan Tarkalankar and Vidyasagar was opposed by some the then
Muslim leaders , they said in that case inclusion of arabic/persian
words could also be considered .
After this communalized debate came the era of Rabindranath .He might
not have restored the ages of Mangalkavya era of people's language but
he brought the language down to the level of urban usage, admited that
it was mostly more calcutta/jessore oriented , but this movement by him
saved bangla from being communalized .Now we have two languages Hindi
and Urdu in North India, owing to Rabindranath we at least have one
syncretic language .
After 1947 , some intellectuals like Golam Mustafa and other Jamaati
leaders (excluding Al Mamud) wanted to put in more Arabic words than
persian words , for purely religious reasons (e.g they do not want to
say Poshak but they say Lebas- Poshak is now a bangla word coming from
Persian , north Indians do not use it ) eventually what happened in this
pattern is more and more urdu/arabic words have come into bangla , not
only replacing local and sanskritized words but also removing Persian
words.
This is a manifestation of identity of crises , artificially created by
some self-aggrandizing intellectuals and politicians. Language in the
final analysis can pretty seldom be manipulated or moulded by these
efforts from above .
One thing positive in present Wbengal , due to the leftist movements and
the pro-people movements of the seventies and the present fad of
post-modernism more and more local words and indigenous words are
pouring in the standard dialect , thanks to Mahasweta Devi,Samaresh
Bose,Abul Bashar,Gunamoy Manna,Ajit Bauri et al.
sayan bhattacharyya
>Language in the
>final analysis can pretty seldom be manipulated or moulded by these
>efforts from above .
It can be, if those "people from above" have the power to control mass
media and broadcast media.
sayan bhattacharyya
>a understand from Urdu is the langue (not language - in the french or
>Derridian connotation)
I didn't get this. Does Derrida have some new interpretation for "langue"?
Are you sure you are not talking about the "langue" vs "parole" distinction
(a distinction that comes from Saussure, not from Derrida)?
In any case, can you please clarify in plain words what the urdu word
"jubaN" means?
sayan bhattacharyya
Joydeep Bhattacharya <joyd...@rcf.usc.edu> wrote:
>Amaar dharona bangla bhashai Urdu'r probabh onek joog dhore
>chole aasche.
Does anyone know what was the language of the Sultanate of Bengal?
What was Ikhtiyaruddin Muhammad bin Bakhtiyar's mother tongue?
Also, what language did people like Murshid Quli, Alivardi and
Siraj speak? Was it Farsi or was it Urdu?
sayan bhattacharyya
Shoumyo Dasgupta <txd...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu> wrote:
>
>Ebong sheta amar mondo lagena. Bangladeshi bondhuder shonge ratridin
>oThabosha korte korte ekhon amar bhashateo onibarjo bhabei Dhuke
>poRechche Musibot, Porishan (Bengalified version holo Pereshan: " E
>bhari pereshanir kaaj re..."),
ei prosonge ekTi dehototwo-r gaan mone poRe gelo :
(Read carefully and you will realize that the song is a
complicated metaphor of the human body and of human life):
ei deho istimar (i.e. "steamer")
nur nobi pasenjar (i.e. "passenger")
khod khoday ticket-master jahajer majhar!
dui dhare dui phaitna chhaoa,
aachhe dui-Ta daina bNaoa
ghurte aachhe din rojoni chokshu doorbeendar!
upre haoa niche pani
majkhane aguner khoni ...
je je malik dey jaban,
sob khalasi pereshan,
bhenge jahaj khan khan hoibe churmar ! (refers to the
Last Judgement
when everyone
will have to
render an account
before Allah)
By the way, what is the Bengali word for "Last Judgement" ?
Udayan Chattopadhyay
In article <33A6D6...@ctp.com>, sb...@ctp.com says...
>
>BTW , banglai kotha bolar shomoie bangladesheera shobshomoi "India"
>kimba "Celcutta " (Calcutta uccharon tao thik hoi na ) keno bole ,
>bangla bhashai to deshtar naam Bharot , tai na ??? Amar ek bangladeshi
>bondhu r mote eta naki ekdhoroner supto samprodayik probhab, eta ki
>thik?. Jemon apnio to bollen "india r bangalee" keno "bharoter bangalee
>" ba "bharotiyo bangalee " ei shobdo ta mathai elo na keno bolun to ????
>
>Just curious , plain curious ....
>Soumitra
Ami ekhon kotha bolbar shomoy India-i boli. jokhon boltam "bharot",
'gurujon' ra to shob hashto ...
In fact, amar experience ekdom ulto - Bangladeshider thekei "bharot" shuni
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>...Amaar dharona bangla bhashai Urdu'r probabh onek joog dhore
> chole aasche.
Ebong sheta amar mondo lagena. Bangladeshi bondhuder shonge ratridin
oThabosha korte korte ekhon amar bhashateo onibarjo bhabei Dhuke
poRechche Musibot, Porishan (Bengalified version holo Pereshan: " E
bhari pereshanir kaaj re..."), bachcha (pichchi)-der shonge kotha bolte
gele khub bastobshommoto-bhabei paNi bolte hoy noile ora bujhte parena.
UlTodike oNrao dekhi kromosho shikhe nichchen je amra "chotpoti'-ke
ghugni boli, 'hNaRi-patil'-ke 'bashon-koshon'; 'phereshta'-ke debdoot
boli, behesht-ke shorgo, dozokh-ke norok, keyamot-ke boli 'shesh-din',
intekaal-ke boli mara jawa, 'akika'-ke boli 'onnoprashon' (oi holo ar ki
- egulir tophaat niye abar pYaNch koshben na).... eibhabe listi baRtei
thakbe.
Eirokom bhabe amader jobane bondi hoye jak Birbhum theke Borak
Upotyoka...
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <5o6nbg$k7o$1...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu>, sayan bhattacharyya
says...
[..]
>In any case, can you please clarify in plain words what the urdu word
>"jubaN" means?
In Urdu, the word will be pronounced as Zuban, Zaban, or ZubNa (with a
chondrobindu). It literally means tongue (as in "zaban kheench luNga.."). It
may also mean "word" (as in "meine zaban di hai.."). It may also mean
language ("angrezi zaban mein ullu ko owl kahte hain").
Ekat jinish nischoi shobai notice korechen je amra jara epare boDo hoyechi, na
jaantei onek Urdu/Persian kotha nijer doinondeen bhasha'r modhye byabohar
kori. Example: shola-poramorsho (shola is bengalified urdu; the urdu word is
salah), ekhtiyar, adob-kaida, mushkil, beparowa, beadob chele, joban-bondi,
alkhalla, ...Amaar dharona bangla bhashai Urdu'r probabh onek joog dhore
chole aasche.
-Joydeep
Denis Wright
Kalpataru Barman <ka...@mail-me.com> wrote:
> West Bengal-er Muslim Bangali-ra graame gonje kintu jol-i bolen.
> Tobey keu keu pani-o boltey paren. Aasoley eta bodh-hoi more of
> regional than religious effect.
Maybe when you're surrounded by one form of word usage, it becomes
second nature. So you might be right, at that. When in Rome....
Denis.
--
| Dr D A Wright History Dept Uni of New England Armidale |
| NSW AUSTRALIA 2351 Ph +61 67 732479 Fax +61 67 733520 |
|____ http://www.une.edu.au/~arts/History/dwright.htm ___|
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <5o7b1a$khd$1...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu>, sayan bhattacharyya
says...
[..]
>By the way, what is the Bengali word for "Last Judgement" ?
Urdu te hobe qayamat. Banglaye hobe "shesh bichar"! :-)
Hindu'der ki kon "last day of judgement" bole kichu aache naki?
-JB
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <33A754...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>, Shoumyo Dasgupta
says...
[..]
>> In fact, amar experience ekdom ulto - Bangladeshider thekei "bharot"
shuni
>
>India-i bolen oNra, kintu tar ekta jukti dekhiyechchilen ekjon
>Bangladeshi shuhrid eibhabe : Bharot bolte oNder itihashbodhe jege oThe
>upomohadesher ekta shamogrik roop - Mohenjo Daro theke Burma obodhi.
>India shekhane ekti bijukto rajnoitik identity...
>
>Amar to tai mone hoy...
>
>Shoumyo.
Eparer bangali'der ekta mushkil hoyeche. Amra onekei poschim bongo ke
Bangladesh bole thaki. Shadharon kotha-batra'te amra onekei boli {example:
aajkal bangladesh'e theke ekta bhalo kobi berocche na}. Ei khetre amra mean
korchi West Bengal kintu bolchi bangladesh. Oparer bondhu-der shonge
golpo korte gele ei mushkil ta face korte hoye.
-JB
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>
> In article <33A78A...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>, Shoumyo Dasgupta
> says...
> >
> >Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>
> [..]
>
> >> Eparer bangali'der ekta mushkil hoyeche. Amra onekei poschim bongo ke
> >> Bangladesh bole thaki. Shadharon kotha-batra'te amra onekei boli
> >
> >Ghoti maane, pNARRRR ghoti bhai tumi...:))
>
> Ki kore buhjlen moshai? shadharon kotha ta theke? thik bujhlam na. Ghoti
> bole hoito!
>
> -Joydeep
Kotha-Barta ke likhechcho kotha-batra. Eta ghotider khub common mistake.
Bo-e akar, to-e ref, akar - 'barta' shobdoti-ke puro batra banano
hoyechche ekhane.
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <33A801...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>, Shoumyo Dasgupta
says...
[..]
>Kotha-Barta ke likhechcho kotha-batra. Eta ghotider khub common mistake.
>
>Bo-e akar, to-e ref, akar - 'barta' shobdoti-ke puro batra banano
>hoyechche ekhane.
>
>Shoumyo.
Thiki to! Aami etodeen kheyal'i korini.
Kintu ekta jinish: barta maane shei khobor type'r kichu noi? e.g: Aami
aagantuk, aami barta dilam ..("Eilan" jaake bole hindi/urdu te ba
announcement).
-JB
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>
> In article <33A754...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>, Shoumyo Dasgupta
> says...
>
> [..]
>
> shuni
> >
> >India-i bolen oNra, kintu tar ekta jukti dekhiyechchilen ekjon
> >Bangladeshi shuhrid eibhabe : Bharot bolte oNder itihashbodhe jege oThe
> >upomohadesher ekta shamogrik roop - Mohenjo Daro theke Burma obodhi.
> >India shekhane ekti bijukto rajnoitik identity...
> >
> >Amar to tai mone hoy...
> >
> >Shoumyo.
>
> Bangladesh bole thaki. Shadharon kotha-batra'te amra onekei boli
======
Ghoti maane, pNARRRR ghoti bhai tumi...:))
{example:
> aajkal bangladesh'e theke ekta bhalo kobi berocche na}. Ei khetre amra mean
> korchi West Bengal kintu bolchi bangladesh. Oparer bondhu-der shonge
> golpo korte gele ei mushkil ta face korte hoye.
Thik. Ashole eta kintu bohujug dhore Bangla lekhay o bochone chole
aashchchey.
Annadashankar Ray pray shob probondhei Bangladesh shobdoti-i byabohar
koren. Khub phNaki-o dyan majhe majhe - kokhono e-par, kokhono opar,
kokhono dupar-shomogro niye bolchchen...
Ei guliye jawata bhaloi lage amar.
Shoumyo.
================================================================
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>
> Kintu ekta jinish: barta maane shei khobor type'r kichu noi? e.g: Aami
> aagantuk, aami barta dilam ..("Eilan" jaake bole hindi/urdu te ba
> announcement).
Thik.
Amra dekha holei jigyesh kori " Ki khobor ?", tai na ?
Shoumyo.
Sambit Basu
Soumitra Bose <sb...@ctp.com> writes:
>Aha jedin banglai "Gam" kothata ashbe ,
"Gham" aar "dukkho" ak noy?
>ba "Andaz(etar
>shobcheye kacher protishobdo amar mone hoi "bhab") chalu hobe ,
Bangla "andaaj" aar ei "andaz"-er tofaat ki?
>"shoffi"
>chalu hobe ,
Ei shobdo-tar maane ki?
>nischoi segulo banglake somridhhotoro korbe , karon segulor
>protishodbo nei .
Sambit
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Sambit Basu wrote:
> "Gham" aar "dukkho" ak noy?
Ayk-i. Kintu shamanyo dyotonar parthokyo aachche bodhoy. Kebol
dhwonimadhurjyei 'gham' amar kaane aykta ronon tole.
Shoumyo.
Shoumyo Dasgupta
Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
> Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
> > India-i bolen oNra, kintu tar ekta jukti dekhiyechchilen ekjon
> > Bangladeshi shuhrid eibhabe : Bharot bolte oNder itihashbodhe jege oThe
> > upomohadesher ekta shamogrik roop - Mohenjo Daro theke Burma obodhi.
> > India shekhane ekti bijukto rajnoitik identity...
> >
> > Amar to tai mone hoy...
> >
> > Shoumyo.
> Eta kintu thik noi , Badruddin Umar ba Sirajul Islam ba erokom aro
> koyekjoner itihas boi porle bojha jai je oikkobodhho concept ta
> bangladeshe "Bharotborsho" bole porichito ...Eta kintu tumi koyekjon
> bangladeshee ke proshno kore jene nite paro, okhane ekhono kichu
> shishupathyo te bharotborsho bolte oikkobodho rupke bojhano hoi .
Tai to bollam. Borsho-ta baad diye phelechchi. Bharotborsho-i bolte
chaichchilam.
Shoumyo.
--
sayan bhattacharyya
Sambit Basu <sam...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>
>>ba "Andaz(etar
>>shobcheye kacher protishobdo amar mone hoi "bhab") chalu hobe ,
>
> Bangla "andaaj" aar ei "andaz"-er tofaat ki?
The Urdu word "ain" means "eye", as far as I know. "ain-daz" means
literally, "eye-estimation", which is the sense in which it is used
in Bengali.
My hunch is that the "bhab" meaning in Urdu is a secondary meaning
derived from this literal meaning. Since "ain-daz" is "eye-estimation",
i.e. not a precise estimation but more like a "gut feeling", this may
have led to this connotation of the word as "feeling".
Needless to say, all of the above is just my "ain-daz", not confirmed
fact ;-)
Soumitra Bose
sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> In article <33A6DE...@ctp.com>, Soumitra Bose <sb...@ctp.com> wrote:
> >
> >a understand from Urdu is the langue (not language - in the french or
> >Derridian connotation)
>
> Are you sure you are not talking about the "langue" vs "parole" distinction
> (a distinction that comes from Saussure, not from Derrida)?
>
> "jubaN" means?
langue and Language in french is different .Parole is even more
different . Derrida' concepts hovered around the theory of langue as a
language(in the english sense) and not a language (the french sense)
JubaN means literally the word, or in another sense it means the
language of a linguistic group , not the physical tongue, not the
dialect ("bol" in urdu) nor even a particular pattern of parole ..
Soumitra Bose
Kalpataru Barman wrote:
>
> Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
> >
> > Denis Wright wrote:
> >
> > > Bangla and Bengali, maybe it's just like pAni and
> > > jal......
> >
> > I didn't get that one... I like both versions of this particular word.
> > By the way, I know that you know, Dennis, that a majority of Indians
> > (Hindus and Muslims alike) say paNi. Jol is a word used ONLY by Hindu
> > Bengalis.
>
> Tobey keu keu pani-o boltey paren. Aasoley eta bodh-hoi more of
> regional than religious effect.
Ei niye Mojharul Islam (Murshidabader) er ekta darun kotha achhe , tini
moshai bolen (poschimbonge ami Miya kothata mussalmaneder modhye
shunini), jol bolen , aro onek erokom shobdo bolen , ami take proshno
korechilam je ei poschimbongyer mussalmaneder jol bolata ki hindu
majority r porbhab , tini bollen , hote pare , kintu amader bap dadara
kintu jol i bolten , tNar mote pani kothata ageo chilo , Rar onchole
Pani cholto , Chandraboti r mohabhaote Pani ackchhar achhe , kintu
Pakistan andoloner pore eta byapok rup pai East Pakistan e , sekhane
torighori Urduized version namate hobe , paribarik somporkogulo shob
Hindustani hoie gelo , keu bhebeo dekhlo na je "baba" kothata mishore
bola hoi, Iran e bola hoi, emonki arabeo bola hoi, "abba" to shudhui
uttor bharotiyora bole thaken . KAKA kothata turki , kintu pakistan
howar pore ota "hindu" shobdo hoie gelo , elo "chacha" jeta tabot
Hindura north India te bole thaken . Jor kore kichu hindi/urdu shobdo
dhokano tNar mote Pakistan andoloner protyoksho phol , mul chinta ta
Hindura ja bolbe ta chara onno kichu bola , kintu ei korte giye je
byaparta uttor bharoter onukoron hoie gelo seta nojore porlo na , karon
chokher samne bangalee mussalman bangalee hindukei dekhe , onnanno
hinduder dekhlo na .byaparta emon ii hasyokor je amake besh kichu
bangladeshhe bolechhen "oi to "Poschim BAngla par hoilei to hoggole pani
koi " sutorang oitai shothik , are ota je tokhon onno rajyo , onno
bhasha seta ar take ke bojhabe , ......jai hok , moja ta hochhe onek
shobdoi dhuke jai , jemon "lagu" howa shuru hoiechhe , "parampora" shuru
hoiechhe , erpor ekdin hoito "potrokar" o chalu hobe , oshubidhar to
kono karon nei .Aha jedin banglai "Gam" kothata ashbe , ba "Andaz(etar
shobcheye kacher protishobdo amar mone hoi "bhab") chalu hobe , "shoffi"
chalu hobe , nischoi segulo banglake somridhhotoro korbe , karon segulor
protishodbo nei .
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <33A78A...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>, Shoumyo Dasgupta
says...
>
>Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
[..]
>> Eparer bangali'der ekta mushkil hoyeche. Amra onekei poschim bongo ke
>> Bangladesh bole thaki. Shadharon kotha-batra'te amra onekei boli
> ======
>
>Ghoti maane, pNARRRR ghoti bhai tumi...:))
Ki kore buhjlen moshai? shadharon kotha ta theke? thik bujhlam na. Ghoti
bole hoito!
-Joydeep
Soumitra Bose
Joydeep Bhattacharya wrote:
>
> In article <5o6nbg$k7o$1...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu>, sayan bhattacharyya
> says...
>
> [..]
>
> >"jubaN" means?
>
> chondrobindu). It literally means tongue (as in "zaban kheench luNga.."). It
> may also mean "word" (as in "meine zaban di hai.."). It may also mean
> language ("angrezi zaban mein ullu ko owl kahte hain").
>
> Ekat jinish nischoi shobai notice korechen je amra jara epare boDo hoyechi, na
> jaantei onek Urdu/Persian kotha nijer doinondeen bhasha'r modhye byabohar
> kori. Example: shola-poramorsho (shola is bengalified urdu; the urdu word is
> salah), ekhtiyar, adob-kaida, mushkil, beparowa, beadob chele, joban-bondi,
> alkhalla, ...Amaar dharona bangla bhashai Urdu'r probabh onek joog dhore
> chole aasche.
>
> -Joydeep
Moja ta hochhye je amra je somosto Arbi shobdo peyechhi banglai ta pray
shobi eshechhe Farsi r hat dhore , karon Farsi chilo court language .
Farsi r shutrei Urdu eshechhe, Urdu theke banglai shobdo asheni.
Mojata hochhye Pakistan andoloner por theke ajker BAngladeshe Farsi r
theke arbi shobder opor beshi jor dewoa hoechhe , dhormiop karone ,
ekhon naki poshak bola hoi na , lebas er procholon barchhe , seta naki
"mussalmani" , ami koyekjon PNar jamatike to bolte shunechi poshak to
hindura bolbe , ota naki sonskrito theke esheche, ei to tader budhhir
dour . Koyek jaigai dekhlam NAmaz er bodole Salat chalu hoiechhe , ekjon
to amake bollo "Are Khoda HAfez kon ken , Allah Hafez kowon lage " bojho
ebar thela .
Amra odbhut ek bangalee goshthi pete cholechhi jara Banglar onnotomo dui
sutroke Sanskrito o Farsi ke oshikar kore onnanno sutre banglar
"porishilon" er prochestai lege thakbe.
Soumitra Bose
Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
>
> Udayan Chattopadhyay wrote:
> >
> > In article <33A6D6...@ctp.com>, sb...@ctp.com says...
> > >
> > >BTW , banglai kotha bolar shomoie bangladesheera shobshomoi "India"
> > >kimba "Celcutta " (Calcutta uccharon tao thik hoi na ) keno bole ,
> > >bangla bhashai to deshtar naam Bharot , tai na ??? Amar ek bangladeshi
> > >bondhu r mote eta naki ekdhoroner supto samprodayik probhab, eta ki
> > >thik?. Jemon apnio to bollen "india r bangalee" keno "bharoter bangalee
> > >" ba "bharotiyo bangalee " ei shobdo ta mathai elo na keno bolun to ????
> > >
> > >Just curious , plain curious ....
> > >Soumitra
> >
> > Ami ekhon kotha bolbar shomoy India-i boli. jokhon boltam "bharot",
> > 'gurujon' ra to shob hashto ...
> >
>
> Bangladeshi shuhrid eibhabe : Bharot bolte oNder itihashbodhe jege oThe
> upomohadesher ekta shamogrik roop - Mohenjo Daro theke Burma obodhi.
> India shekhane ekti bijukto rajnoitik identity...
>
> Amar to tai mone hoy...
>
> Shoumyo.
>
> "... Shada bhat thik uThbei phute tarapunjer moto,
> Purono Gaaner bismrito-kotha phirbe tomar shwor-e
>
> Premik milbe premikar shaathe Thik-i
> Kintu Shanti pabena, pabena, pabena..."
>
> ('Shongoti', Ode to Amiya Chakroborti
> - Shoheed Kadri)
Raghu Seshadri
Samir (Sa...@btinternet.com) wrote:
:
: > I quite could not understand what the problem is if some one introduce
: > you a a indiar bangale. It minimises a lot of confussion with the
: > initial conversation. And after all we the bangalis of Bangladesh and
: > bangalis of India do have some differences, don't we?
: > -Emran
: What differences are you talking about?
:
: Religion? Culture? Bengali dialects? Food? Dress?
Emran is right. There is atleast one (and possibly more )
difference between Indian bengalis and BD ones.
Indian Bengalis (the great majority) do not want to live
in a theocratic state where there is an official religion, and where
there are laws they are expected to obey because
God said so. They find such a scheme ridiculous.
BD bengalis (the great majority) wish to live in such a state.
They do not find it ridiculous; instead they find it reasonable, and
they consider people who think otherwise misguided
at best.
This is an enormous, and almost unbridgeable
difference.
RS
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <5oa3e5$g...@er7.rutgers.edu>, Sambit Basu says...
[...]
> Bangla "andaaj" aar ei "andaz"-er tofaat ki?
>
Banglai "andaaj" maane "approximation of measure"; Urdu te "andaaz" maane
"style" (very loosely speaking. Jemni : "isque ka andaaz" maane "style of
loving".
-JB
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <33A8CA...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>, Shoumyo Dasgupta
says...
Gham er bhetor ekta loneliness ekta solitude (tanhai) implied thake.
Therefore, gham = dukkho + some other stuff!
-JB
Samir
> >> "Gham" aar "dukkho" ak noy?
> >
> >Ayk-i. Kintu shamanyo dyotonar parthokyo aachche bodhoy. Kebol
> >dhwonimadhurjyei 'gham' amar kaane aykta ronon tole.
> >
> >Shoumyo.
>
> Gham er bhetor ekta loneliness ekta solitude (tanhai) implied thake.
> Therefore, gham = dukkho + some other stuff!
What about bedona?
mbho...@aardvark.ou.edu
In article <33A951C8...@geocities.com>, Imran Chowdhury <rakis...@geocities.com> writes:
( stuff deleted)
Imran Chowdhury wrote :
>
> There are many differences between Bangladeshi and people in West
> Bangal. First of all, in 1905 they cried about breaking up Bangladesh
> and later they(Congress party and West Bangal political guru) are the
> one who broke Bangal into two pieces.
>
(stuff deleted)
> So yes, there are differences, West Bangal practice Hinduism the way
> you suppose to.. and Bangladeshi tries to follow the way Islam suppose
> to and the two can not mix.....
>
>
What do the 15-20 million muslims those who live in West Bengal
practice ? Hinduism ?
And what about some 12 million hindus and over 2 million
christians & buddhists of Bangladesh ? What do they follow ?
Are they Bangladeshis to your eyes ?
Don't you think the similarities & differences between the
the people of Bangladesh & West Bengal can be pointed out
in a much more rational way ?
Best wishes,
Bilayet Hossain.
> IC
>
>
Soumitra Bose
oboshoi ekta sublime onubhob , tobe thik bedonar moto shoja noi, karon
Gham er ekta jeno sukhanubhutio achhe , ja manush ke aro atmosomikhok
kore tole , nijer ontorleen chetona guloke ak byaktigoto sushoma dei ,
eta khubii artistic , bedona tar ekti bishesh rup hote pare , tobe
shudhui bedona noi.
Soumitra Bose
Hey Raghu , were the hell had you been these days , man!!! Glad and very
good , that you have come back kicking ....
It could not be more right . Even by some freak irony of fate and some
miracle or hell breaking loose ,ever BJP gains power in Wbengal , it
would be very very tough for them to make Wbengal a theocratic
administration or for that matter ask bengalees to obey religious rites
or scriptures , this is true even for muslims .I guess we may have more
secular minded muslims than any part of the world , may be even more
than Turkey . A very big number of muslims in Wbengal do eat pork and do
not have any qualms about it , and still considers them as pretty
practising muslims ......
Mohammad Javed Khan
Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
>
> Wrong , there is no one way of following Islam , there are 72 different
> sects among the muslims among which at least 5 to 6 are more prominent
> differences ,
GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES OF THE DIFFERENCES.....
People of Indonesia and Poeple of Bangladesh might have some minute
differences in praying styles and others, but they did not change the
religion at all... it is still one...
Javed
>and each might consider all others to be anti or
> non-muslims , that does not discount the claim of the others at all.
> Hinduism is totally against any particular one way of thinking . As a
> matter of fact , one cannot become a hindu (as one is always that ,
> whichever religion or denomination he/she belongs to) but one can
> definitely become a non-hindu or an anti-hindu , and the only way to do
> this is to start thinking that my belief is the only way or my belief is
> the better way than others.
> So Wbengal does not have any fixed way as it "should " do or behave ...
>
> > IC
Samir
> REJECT MR. SOUMITRA BOSE .....
> SHE HAS NO RESPECT ....
> SHE CONSIDERS THE BANGALDESHIS TO BE SUFFERING ...
Excuse me, but have I missed something here?
Is Ms. Mohammad Javed Khan suggesting that Soumitra Bose is a
hermaphrodite?? or is there some other great intellectual point being made
in this seemingly pointless post?
Samir
Mohammad Javed Khan
REJECT MR. SOUMITRA BOSE WHO IS COVERTLY SPREADING ANTI-MUSLIM AND
ANTI-BANGLADESH TEACHINGS.
SHE HAS NO RESPECT FOR THE UPPER CLASS OF BANGLADESH!!!
SHE CONSIDERS THE BANGALDESHIS TO BE SUFFERING FROM "INFERIORITY
COMPLEX" JUST BECAUSE WE ARE SO LATE IN BECOMING INDIA'S SLAVES!!
IF MUSLIMS EAT PORKS, SHE CALLS THEM TRUE MUSLIMS!!! NAO-JUBILLAH!!!!
REJECT THIS SOUMITRA CREATURE ALLTOGETHER!!!! SHE IS THE maa_kaali
CHARACTER. SHE IS HERE TO CREATE PROBLEMS AND THAT IS ALL.
I PRAY THAT ALLAH WILL HELP HER GET BACK A GOOD SENSE!!! I ALSO PRAY
THAT THE SENSIBLE NETTORS OF WB WILL NOT PAY ANY HEED TO HER.
SHE NEEDS THE HELP OF ALLAH TO CURE HER ANTI-MUSLIM STANDPOINT. WE ALL
SHOULD PRAY FOR HER AND REJECT HER TEMPORARILY!!! AAMIIN.
Javed
"As a caring friend of Bangalis I am worried about Mr. Soumitra that she
is suffering from retardation. May Allah help her"
Soumitra Bose
>
dharekacheo noi.
>
> >ba "Andaz(etar
> >shobcheye kacher protishobdo amar mone hoi "bhab") chalu hobe ,
>
> Bangla "andaaj" aar ei "andaz"-er tofaat ki?
Banglai adjaj mane to ekta bhasha bhasha estimate kora , kintu Urdu
"andaaz" to tomar beshi kore jana kotha , Hindustani Classical e jokhon
bola hoi " unki gayaki ka andaaz ..." seta to ar estimate noi...
>
> >"shoffi"
> >chalu hobe ,
>
> Ei shobdo-tar maane ki?
Ek dhoroner sophistication, kintu abar thik ta noi..ei ongsho ta shono
..
"Ghulam Ali jab urdu me gazal gaten haiN , gazal me ek anokha kisim ki
shoffi a jata hai".....Kon ek commentator er mukhe shunechilam..
>
> >nischoi segulo banglake somridhhotoro korbe , karon segulor
> >protishodbo nei .
>
> Sambit
Samir Bhattacharya
Joydeep likhechhe:
>In article <33A801...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>, Shoumyo Dasgupta
>says...
>[..]
>>Kotha-Barta ke likhechcho kotha-batra. Eta ghotider khub common mistake.
>>
>>Bo-e akar, to-e ref, akar - 'barta' shobdoti-ke puro batra banano
>>hoyechche ekhane.
>>
>>Shoumyo.
>Thiki to! Aami etodeen kheyal'i korini.
DNaDao Joydeep. Kotha nei, barta nei, oro'm hoot kore otoTa defensive
hoye jeo-na. Amar mone hoy tomar ota typo-i chhilo!
>Kintu ekta jinish: barta maane shei khobor type'r kichu noi? e.g: Aami
>aagantuk, aami barta dilam ..("Eilan" jaake bole hindi/urdu te ba
>announcement).
Thik-i to jano barta maane ki.
Samir
"Bhasha, shudhu bhasha-i niyoti."
>-JB
Mohammad Javed Khan
Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
>
> Emran Khaleque wrote:
>
> > And after all we the bangalis of Bangladesh and
> > bangalis of India do have some differences, don't we?
>
>
> When I meet a fellow Bangali, I am already happy to find how similar we
> are (cholen maachcher jhal bhorta raindha khai) than try to find
> differences.
>
> The human species has this unique mysterious power by which, unlike the
> animal kingdom, they can engulf differences and asssimilate, if they
> want to.
>
> Regards,
>
> Shoumyo.
Aare bhai: partho-kko shobar modhdhei aache.. tai boila aita nia
maramari korbar kono karon aache? Aamader majhe dhormo aar koth bolar
style aer parthokko thakleo aamra khoob close feel kori.....
Aare bhai goto koidine Soumitra mia aamar mathata khaarap koira dewar
pichone aache..... taar kotha barta aamaar mejajtai tong koira diteche
Tai boila aamaar mone rakhte hoibo je shobai Soumitra miar moto naaa....
Have fun..
Javed
>
> http://cac.psu.edu/~txd111
T.H.Sanyal.
In article <5oa52v$c...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>, sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu (Raghu
Seshadri) says:
>Indian Bengalis (the great majority) do not want to live
>in a theocratic state where there is an official religion, and where
>there are laws they are expected to obey because
>God said so. They find such a scheme ridiculous.
So there is nothing else except Section 302 of Criminal Procedure
Code that tells Indian Bengalis that they are not expected to murder
someone. Now, what tells the majority of Indian Bengalis (who happily
partake of fish and mutton) that they are not expected to eat beef?
England has an official religion. I do not know any Indian Bengali
who has refused to migrate to England for that reason. Do you?
>BD bengalis (the great majority) wish to live in such a state.
>They do not find it ridiculous; instead they find it reasonable, and
>they consider people who think otherwise misguided
>at best.
Is this a Seshadrian surmise or do you have data from some statistically
sound survey of Bangladeshis?
>This is an enormous, and almost unbridgeable
>difference.
Almost as unbridgeable as the difference between the economic systems
of the two Germanys, I hope. :-)
Welcome back, Mr Seshadri.
ths.
T.H.Sanyal.
> There are many differences between Bangladeshi and people in West
>Bangal. First of all, in 1905 they cried about breaking up Bangladesh
>and later they(Congress party and West Bangal political guru) are the
>one who broke Bangal into two pieces.
Please note that Bengalis had little clout within Congress when the
second partition of Bengal took place. People such as Nalini Sarkar
and Bidhan Roy were doing the bidding of G D Birla. The partition did
not have any support at the popular level.
> Political leaders did not make any improvement in East Bangal during
>British rule. They fought furiously against establishment of Dhaka
>University. People from East Banglah had to go to Calcata to study for
>Higher degree.
The first 3 universities in Calcutta, Bombay, and Madras were
established in 1850's. No other university was founded for decades.
When vast regions of India did not have any university within hundreds
of miles, how could there be a case for establishing another
university (at Dhaka) so close to an existing one (at Calcutta)?
Do you know about the Bengal Pact that provided for preferential
appointment of Muslims in govt jobs in Bengal until such time when
there would be a reasonable balance of Hindus and Muslims in the
Bengal Govt Staff? This was a pact between the Hindu and Muslim
leaders of Bengal reached after the first partition of Bengal
was modified in 1911. Unfortunately the pact was undermined later
by people who saw danger in Hindu-Muslim amity.
> Islam and Hindusim has a lot of differences. Hinduism is a social
>religion with no political or inter-personal guideline. Its a religion
Are you speaking from your knowledge of Hinduism or from your prejudice
against Hinduism? What does the term "social religion" mean? Is Islam
an asocial or anti-social religion?
ths.
Mohammad Javed Khan
Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
> Raghu Seshadri wrote:
> >
> > Samir (Sa...@btinternet.com) wrote:
> > :
> > : > I quite could not understand what the problem is if some one introduce
> > : > you a a indiar bangale. It minimises a lot of confussion with the
> > : > bangalis of India do have some differences, don't we?
> > :
> > : What differences are you talking about?
> > :
> > : Religion? Culture? Bengali dialects? Food? Dress?
> >
> > Emran is right. There is atleast one (and possibly more )
> > difference between Indian bengalis and BD ones.
> >
> > in a theocratic state where there is an official religion, and where
> > there are laws they are expected to obey because
> > God said so. They find such a scheme ridiculous.
> >
> > They do not find it ridiculous; instead they find it reasonable, and
> > they consider people who think otherwise misguided
> > at best.
> >
> > difference.
> >
>
> Hey Raghu , were the hell had you been these days , man!!! Glad and very
> good , that you have come back kicking ....
>
> It could not be more right . Even by some freak irony of fate and some
> miracle or hell breaking loose ,ever BJP gains power in Wbengal , it
> would be very very tough for them to make Wbengal a theocratic
> administration or for that matter ask bengalees to obey religious rites
> or scriptures , this is true even for muslims .I guess we may have more
> secular minded muslims than any part of the world , may be even more
> than Turkey . A very big number of muslims in Wbengal do eat pork and do
> not have any qualms about it , and still considers them as pretty
> practising muslims ......
Yes!!!! Now say good things to RAghu for uttering junks like you!!!
Stop your craps please!!!!!!!!
Javed
Mohammad Javed Khan
Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
>
> Hey Raghu , were the hell had you been these days , man!!! Glad and very
> good , that you have come back kicking ....
>
> It could not be more right . Even by some freak irony of fate and some
> miracle or hell breaking loose ,ever BJP gains power in Wbengal , it
> would be very very tough for them to make Wbengal a theocratic
> administration or for that matter ask bengalees to obey religious rites
> or scriptures , this is true even for muslims .I guess we may have more
> secular minded muslims than any part of the world , may be even more
> than Turkey . A very big number of muslims in Wbengal do eat pork and do
> not have any qualms about it , and still considers them as pretty
> practising muslims ......
Yaik.... and you are here to pat them at the back calling them the true
muslims!!!!!
Well here is our Anti-Bangladesh Mr. Soumitra again!!!! You should be
ashamed of yourself for ridiculing muslims and Islam!!!
Javed
Soumitra Bose
Shoumyo Dasgupta wrote:
>
> Sambit Basu wrote:
>
> > "Gham" aar "dukkho" ak noy?
>
> dhwonimadhurjyei 'gham' amar kaane aykta ronon tole.
>
> Shoumyo.
Dur ek ekebarei noi, Gham ekta state of introvertness in mind , ja onek
monoshil ekta gombhir rup pai. Gham sthan bisheshe dukho o hote pare ,
tobe khubii specific ar khubi rarely ta hoi.
Samir Bhattacharya
Shoumyo likhechhen:
>Sambit Basu wrote:
>> "Gham" aar "dukkho" ak noy?
>Ayk-i. Kintu shamanyo dyotonar parthokyo aachche bodhoy. Kebol
>dhwonimadhurjyei 'gham' amar kaane aykta ronon tole.
'gho'-e aakaar 'mo' 'gham' erokom ronon tole?
Samir
>Shoumyo.
Mohammad Javed Khan
Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
>
> Hey Raghu , were the hell had you been these days , man!!! Glad and very
> good , that you have come back kicking ....
>
> It could not be more right . Even by some freak irony of fate and some
> miracle or hell breaking loose ,ever BJP gains power in Wbengal , it
> would be very very tough for them to make Wbengal a theocratic
> administration or for that matter ask bengalees to obey religious rites
> or scriptures , this is true even for muslims .I guess we may have more
> secular minded muslims than any part of the world , may be even more
> than Turkey . A very big number of muslims in Wbengal do eat pork and do
> not have any qualms about it , and still considers them as pretty
> practising muslims ......
Mr. Soumitra's above expression shows that she is out and out anti
muslim and is up to no good. She is spreading bad teaching in scb and
sci. Her idea is to pat muslims at the back as long as they eat pork
and do not follow religion. As soon as they follow religion she calls
them bigots!!!
We must not follow her style and we should protest against all these
things by her..... She does not belong here in scb if she is going to
speak in an anti muslim and anti bangaldeshi manner!!!!
If she mends her manner, I pray to Allah, she will be more than welcome
to scb!!!!
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <33A992...@ctp.com>, Soumitra Bose says...
[..]
>"Ghulam Ali jab urdu me gazal gaten haiN , gazal me ek anokha kisim ki
>shoffi a jata hai".....Kon ek commentator er mukhe shunechilam..
Read "Ghulam Ali jab urdu me gazal gaten haiN, gazal me ek anokhe kism ki
shoffi a jati hai"!
Just nit-picking about gender.
-JB
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <5obnco$k...@newsb.netnews.att.com>, Samir Bhattacharya says...
Eta bhalo bolecho Samir da.
Urdu te "gham" pronounce kora hoye "ghum" (not ghoom!). Abaar oi "gh"
sound ta odbhut oder; eta tumi aami thik kore pronounce kortei parbo na.
Thik "gh"'o noi abaar "g" o noi--- shober majh khane'er ekta swor. Correct
bhabe pronounce korte gele shombhoboto UP, Punjab, ba Pakistan'er lok
howa dorkar. Ekta jinish kheyal kore dekhecho: amra bangali'ra "whine" aar
"wine" duto ek bhabe uccharon kori. Thik shei jonyei amra sothik bhabe
"gham" uccharon korte parina. Eta khub "gham"-er bishoi!
-JB
Joydeep Bhattacharya
In article <5obn1b$k...@newsb.netnews.att.com>, Samir Bhattacharya says...
>
>Joydeep likhechhe:
>
>>In article <33A801...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>, Shoumyo Dasgupta
>>says...
>
>>[..]
>
>>>Kotha-Barta ke likhechcho kotha-batra. Eta ghotider khub common
mistake.
>>>
>>>Bo-e akar, to-e ref, akar - 'barta' shobdoti-ke puro batra banano
>>>hoyechche ekhane.
>>>
>>>Shoumyo.
>
>>Thiki to! Aami etodeen kheyal'i korini.
>
>DNaDao Joydeep. Kotha nei, barta nei, oro'm hoot kore otoTa defensive
>hoye jeo-na. Amar mone hoy tomar ota typo-i chhilo!
[..]
>Samir
Na Samir da, ota kintu typo chilo na. Typo bole chalabo bhebechilam ekbar
kintu....! :-)
Shottyi kheyal korini konodeen je aami kotha-barta ke kotha-batra boli.
Shoumyo babu'r motoN ghugu lok na holey hoito chirota kaal'i e bhool kore
jetam. Eta onek ta shei rokhom: onekei shuni "shomman" ke bolen
"shonman". Etao mone hoye amaader motoN ghoti'der dosh. Ta Samir da,
tumi to epar, naki?
-Joydeep
mb...@www.lsem.com
Hate begets hate. Please sit back, relax and think. Learn
to love your fellow being - anti-muslim, anti-bangladeshi,
anti-capitalist, whatever be they. You can win them over
only by love and compassion. There is no other alternative.
I have a hard time to believe you've written the following.
- Mohammad Bari
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Imran Chowdhury
Soumitra Bose wrote:
> It could not be more right . Even by some freak irony of fate and some
>
> miracle or hell breaking loose ,ever BJP gains power in Wbengal , it
> would be very very tough for them to make Wbengal a theocratic
> administration or for that matter ask bengalees to obey religious
> rites
> or scriptures , this is true even for muslims .I guess we may have
> more
> secular minded muslims than any part of the world , may be even more
> than Turkey . A very big number of muslims in Wbengal do eat pork and
> do
> not have any qualms about it , and still considers them as pretty
> practising muslims ......
Soumitra
I thought you were more inteligent and knowledgeable than that. You
should know that, considering yourself muslim does not make you a
muslim, You have to practice it. Its not like Hindu religion that you
born with it. So, next time just don't genaralize Islam based on the
practice so called Muslim have. Try to find out what Islam said, if they
don't practice it its their fault. But not islams....
Secondly, West bangal's bangalis are more hypocrit than that of
Bangladeshi... They talk about One Bangla... But under what? India..
That won't be Bangla... If there has to be one Bangla.. That should be
under Bangladesh... An Independant nation.. Not the way you follow
Central government..
Imran
Samir Bhattacharya
Joydeep likhechhe:
>In article <5obn1b$k...@newsb.netnews.att.com>, Samir Bhattacharya says...
>>
>>Joydeep likhechhe:
>>
>>>In article <33A801...@silmaril.smeal.psu.edu>, Shoumyo Dasgupta
>>>says...
>>
>>>[..]
>>
>>>>Kotha-Barta ke likhechcho kotha-batra. Eta ghotider khub common
>mistake.
>>>>
>>>>Bo-e akar, to-e ref, akar - 'barta' shobdoti-ke puro batra banano
>>>>hoyechche ekhane.
>>>>
>>>>Shoumyo.
>>
>>>Thiki to! Aami etodeen kheyal'i korini.
>>
>>DNaDao Joydeep. Kotha nei, barta nei, oro'm hoot kore otoTa defensive
>>hoye jeo-na. Amar mone hoy tomar ota typo-i chhilo!
>[..]
>>Samir
>Na Samir da, ota kintu typo chilo na. Typo bole chalabo bhebechilam ekbar
>kintu....! :-)
:) Tumi jemon bhabe bolo, shebhabe jodi likhe thako-to typo chhilo-na.
Kono *mistake* ba bhul-o chhilo-na -- etai amar boktobyo. Jodi jemon
bhabe banglay lekhe, shebhabe likhte cheyechhile, to ota chhilo typo
[ba banaan bhul].
>Shottyi kheyal korini konodeen je aami kotha-barta ke kotha-batra boli.
>Shoumyo babu'r motoN ghugu lok na holey hoito chirota kaal'i e bhool kore
>jetam.
Ekhanei amar apotti.. tumi shara ghoti-jatir protibhu hoye ekta mithye
bhul-ke swikar korchho. Shoumyo-babu ghughu lok bolei tumi eto ghaabDe
jaabe? Keu-i jebhabe lekhe shebhabe shob shob somoye bolena. Ulto-tao
Thik. Udahoron? ghughu/ghugu, Shoumyo/Soumyo.
>Eta onek ta shei rokhom: onekei shuni "shomman" ke bolen
>"shonman". Etao mone hoye amaader motoN ghoti'der dosh.
:) :) Abar dosh? [Oi Shyama-songeet-ta mone achhe? Dosh karo-o noy go
maa; ami swokhaato solil-e dube mori Shyama..]
Tumi dekhchhi nijer haate khaal katchho. Orom confession-mode-e
royechho keno?
>Ta Samir da,
>tumi to epar, naki?
Bhaashte jane je tar abar epar opar ki?
Javed
What is your problem Samir? Have you gone nuts or what?
Get well.
Javed
Soumitra Bose
khotomoto...
Soumitra Bose
Imran Chowdhury wrote:
>
> Soumitra Bose wrote:
>
> > It could not be more right . Even by some freak irony of fate and some
> >
> > miracle or hell breaking loose ,ever BJP gains power in Wbengal , it
> > would be very very tough for them to make Wbengal a theocratic
> > administration or for that matter ask bengalees to obey religious
> > rites
> > or scriptures , this is true even for muslims .I guess we may have
> > more
> > secular minded muslims than any part of the world , may be even more
> > than Turkey . A very big number of muslims in Wbengal do eat pork and
> > do
> > not have any qualms about it , and still considers them as pretty
> > practising muslims ......
>
> Soumitra
>
> I thought you were more inteligent and knowledgeable than that. You
> should know that, considering yourself muslim does not make you a
> muslim, You have to practice it. Its not like Hindu religion that you
> born with it. So, next time just don't genaralize Islam based on the
> practice so called Muslim have. Try to find out what Islam said, if they
> don't practice it its their fault. But not islams....
What a muslim practices do differ from one creed to the other . The
sorthodox sunnis do not consider one should at all go celibate , some
even say it is against koranic dictum or scriptures , but sufis do not
think that way , a very big group of sufis do actually extoll the
virtues of staying celibate (you may not find any sufi left in BD or
pakistan, please visit Nijamuddin Aulia's shrine).
Ahamdiyas may not be considered as muslims by some sunni-orhtodoxes ,
but my discussion with many muslim religious leaders in Wbengal revealed
that many (and I maintain a big number) of ulemas do not have any thing
of that nature to stay , they sincerely think Ahmediyas are muslims
too.So about the Bohras and the Aga Khanis .(I do not think these
creeds do exist in BD- some aga khanis may be but how many Bohras , i
do not know ) Asghar Ali Engineer(he is not an engineer in profession -
this is a bohra custom to go by the name of a founder figure of the
family) is a bohra muslim . There are practices of Shias which are not
corroborated by Sunnis .My point is living in India , where still there
are many creeds of muslims able to exist side by side , one can easily
find out that there is no "uniform islamic practice " .The fakirs have
been calculatively killed in East PAkistan (Abul Bashar's report on
Fakirs) , it spilled into Wbengal too ,especially in Murshidabad and
Degonga region of 24 parganas .After many movements and strong political
action taken by the muslim secular forces those killer forces are
eliminated , in many cases physically too.Now the fakirs can have a
peaceful life in Wbengal. Fakirs do not follow many important islamic
"must-do"s like Namaaz five times a day , like joining Jamaats , like
Rojas for one month , and they are very devout muslims indeed. There are
some dargahs and madjhars run by the fakirs which are very popular among
the muslims .
I never presscribed muslims eating pork or hindus eating beef . I merely
pointed out that many muslims I have seen (among Bangladeshees too)
who eat pork and still are practising muslims , their way of practice
may not appeal to you or are approved by you , but that does not make
that person considering himself as a muslim and follow his rituals
whatever is that.
This is a very important point .No Islamic country in the world has been
able to solve the problems of co-habitation of various creeds of Islam
.Only in secular muslim countries like Turkey and some central asian
republics this has been possible . When a country becomes "Islamic" , it
is not only "islam " that becomes the law , it is a specific
interpretation of islamic law that becomes binding .Shias do not believe
in Zakat , and they refuse to part it as a binding law , this is tough
situation too. The rules of muslim personal law does not completely bind
upon the Shias in India as they have not approved of them totally .
We have the chance of knowing this living in India as we can accomodate
every variation of Islam and for that matter any other religion .The
proposed Khalistan wanted to remove all Naamdharis and other sects of
Sikhism .Within Indian constitution there is no distinction ..this is
only possible in a secular country .....
We cannot take the cue from BD or pakistan to enact our laws and
understanding of Islamic laws and practices .We have many many
variations and we have to live with them as equals , no "more than equal
muslims" , no "more than equal hindus" "no more than equal christians "
are possible in India .
>
> Secondly, West bangal's bangalis are more hypocrit than that of
> Bangladeshi... They talk about One Bangla... But under what? India..
> That won't be Bangla... If there has to be one Bangla.. That should be
> under Bangladesh... An Independant nation.. Not the way you follow
> Central government..
feelings could and are very well mutual ...
HAve you discussed about the different options with wbengal bengalees
???
You have not , because there is no group other than BJP(outside bengal)
who talk about bangladesh coming directly as a province within India .
the most talked about prescription is a South asia loose confederation
of sovereign states where India itself would be a federation of
self-governing states. I am sure you understand the distinction of these
terms .As a matter of fact this solution first was propounded by Jinnah
and then it is popularized by prominent BAngladeshee intellectuals
.Wbengalee intellectuals took this formulae much later .
May be some other time I can explain how ,if hypothetically bangladesh
comes as a part within India(in its present structure) , would be a
complete disaster for Wbengal , and political activists during 1971 were
very concerned of such a possibility , if could check out the pages of
EPW and Forntier,NOW etc you would find the debate and its various
facets ..
>
> Imran
Soumitra Bose
Mohammad Javed Khan wrote:
>
> Soumitra Bose wrote:
> >
> >
> > Wrong , there is no one way of following Islam , there are 72 different
> > sects among the muslims among which at least 5 to 6 are more prominent
> > differences ,
>
> GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES OF THE DIFFERENCES.....
>
> People of Indonesia and Poeple of Bangladesh might have some minute
> differences in praying styles and others, but they did not change the
> religion at all... it is still one...
>
> Javed
these two examples of yours are from the same creed at present -the
orhtodox sunni creed - there actually are different sub-creeds within
sunnis the HAnafis,Madjhabis, Mutazilites ,Kharijites and still there
are some remnants of the Madjhabis ..(check out the novel "Ali konan" by
Ahmed Sofa , "Khowabnama " by Aktharuzzaman iliyas , "Surer SAmpan" by
Abul BAshar etc)
Raghu Seshadri
T.H.Sanyal. (TH...@psuvm.psu.edu) wrote:
: >Indian Bengalis (the great majority) do not want to live
: >in a theocratic state where there is an official religion, and where
: >there are laws they are expected to obey because
: >God said so. They find such a scheme ridiculous.
: So there is nothing else except Section 302 of Criminal Procedure
: Code that tells Indian Bengalis that they are not expected to murder
: someone. Now, what tells the majority of Indian Bengalis (who happily
: partake of fish and mutton) that they are not expected to eat beef?
I was not aware that the West Bengal Govt has a State Law
stipulating that Indian Bengalis cannot eat beef.
When was this law passed ? When did it get on
the CPI(M) platform ?
: England has an official religion. I do not know any Indian Bengali
: who has refused to migrate to England for that reason. Do you?
I did say "great majority". Are you saying that
the great majority of Indian Bengalis have emigrated
to England ?
: >BD bengalis (the great majority) wish to live in such a state.
: >They do not find it ridiculous; instead they find it reasonable, and
: >they consider people who think otherwise misguided
: >at best.
:
: Is this a Seshadrian surmise or do you have data from some statistically
: sound survey of Bangladeshis?
It is an educated guess, judging by the total lack
of protest when their Govt turned that country into
an Islamic State from its formerly secular status.
BDs after all are known to protest
what they don't like. Why else would they not
protest ?
BD bengalis (the great majority) are devout Muslims,
and obeying Allah's laws would be congenial
and pleasing to them. So my guess is based on
fairly sound substantiation.
: >This is an enormous, and almost unbridgeable
: >difference.
:
: Almost as unbridgeable as the difference between the economic systems
: of the two Germanys, I hope. :-)
Don't know what you mean. Notice that one economic
system had to be abandoned completely upon merger.
Now which system do you think will be abandoned
to enable a merger between WB and BD ? Will
WB want to obey Allah, or will BD bengalis
abandon Allah ?
: Welcome back, Mr Seshadri.
Thanks.
RS
Naeem Mohaiemen
Javed wrote:
> > Samir wrote:
> > > Javed:
> > > REJECT MR. SOUMITRA BOSE .....
> > > SHE HAS NO RESPECT ....
> > Is Ms. Mohammad Javed Khan suggesting that Soumitra Bose is a
> > hermaphrodite??
> What is your problem Samir?
Look up "hermaphrodite". He's referring to the fact that you used "she"
for a boy.
Soumitra Bose
hobei , bangalee ke je rabindronather devota manush kore uthate parlen
na ....
sayan bhattacharyya
Samir Bhattacharya <s...@hogpa.att.com> wrote:
>
>Bhaashte jane je tar abar epar opar ki?
>
>Samir
>
>"Bhasha, shudhu bhasha-i niyoti."
I interpret this line (from Shoumyo's sig file) in a different way,
guided by the fact that it is spelt with a "sh" and not an "s". I take
the "bhasha" to mean "language".
Thus, I interpret the line as :
"language, only language is destiny".
Shoumyo, was it dontyo-so or murhonyo-so in the original?
I do understand that "bhasa" as floating goes better with the preceding
lines (the image of the lamps floating on the water). kintu kobita-r to
ek-Ti nirdishTo manet thakte hobe emon kotha nei , so I'll interpret his
kine as a dwibidho orthomoy, punning, reference to both "floating" and
"language" as destiny. I get more mileage out of this poem when I read it
this way.
Shoumyo Dasgupta
sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
> Shoumyo, was it dontyo-so or murhonyo-so in the original?
It was murdhonyo sho.
Shoumyo.