THE MUSLIM LAST NAME IN BANGLADESH
Sohel Q. Khan
Here is a Sona Mia names his son Kala Uddin and the Kala Uddin names his
son Zafar Ahmed.
If Zafar Ahmed goes to school, gets educated and names his son
Ulluk Ahmed Valluk.
When the Ulluk Ahmed Valluk gets another brother, his parents name the
newborn Chamcham Ahmed Patal.
In Bangladeshi families, there are no connections of last names which are
supposed to be the family names.
The common last names in Bangladesh are Ahmed, Uddin, Islam, Miah,
Chowdhury. However, most of the cases, the parents chose different
family names to name their own children. Sometimes even they use two
family names to name their children (i.e. Lal Mia Chowdhury).
In the modern Bangladeshi families, another trend can be observed where
"Nick Name" are chosen as a last name (i.e. Ulluk Ahmed Valluk).
In the western countries, the mismatch of family name among children and
parents occur due to the adoption, break down in family, and children
out of wedlock.
When Bangladeshis come to the western countries or even in China, they are
silently asked about the reason of their family name mismatch.
Would Bangladeshi families learn to maintain their family names?
Sohel Khan
University of Kansas
##
#
##### #
#
##### #
#
##
Sohel Q. Khan
[Another controversial topic:]
In Bangladesh, many familes choose the last name of their children as
"Islam". The increase in naming this last name followed after the wide
spread publicity of a great Bangladeshi poet Kazi Nazrul Islam.
Should people's last name be "Islam"?
Islam is a name of a religion, the way of life; can be the first name of
a person, however, it should not be owned by families as their family
names.
For those who believe that God gave us Islam for our use: As a Mlslim
I applaud your faith. In considering the Islamic history, however, we
must remember that the during the lifetime of our great Prophet Muhammed
(PBU) and his "Shahabas", no one named their children with the last name
"Islam".
Hassan Alam
Is there ruling on this, or your personal opinion.
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: [Another controversial topic:]
--
Hassan Alam
Hassan Alam
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: When Bangladeshis come to the western countries or even in China, they are
: silently asked about the reason of their family name mismatch.
: Would Bangladeshi families learn to maintain their family names?
Why?
dipen bhattacharya
Sohel Q. Khan writes:
>Would Bangladeshi families learn to maintain their family names?
This is not directly related to your post, but once I read an article
by Meghna Amin in "Probashi" which poses the question why most Bangladeshi
parents, after declaring themselves the champions of Bengali language,
are reluctant to give at least one Bengali name to their offsprings.
When I come across a name credited for doing respectable work I may
want to know whether this person is a Bengali/Bangladeshi or not (please
excuse my provincialism). There seems to be no easy way of doing it.
Dipen Bhattacharjo
Aeonderer
"Sohel Q. Khan" <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> writes:
>
>[Another controversial topic:]
>
you call this a topic !!???
>In Bangladesh, many familes choose the last name of their children as
>"Islam". The increase in naming this last name followed after the wide
>spread publicity of a great Bangladeshi poet Kazi Nazrul Islam.
>
>Should people's last name be "Islam"?
>
i just wonder other than me are there any other suckers who'd even bother to
answer to this pathetic cry for a post. lame. just too darn lame.
aA...
gos...
Sohel Q. Khan
Elementary, Intermediate and College Algebra in Bangladesh are
taught with too much of "Algebraic" technique with very little
graphical approach. Bangladeshi students, therefore, cannot
comprehend the concept of functions together with it's pictorial
representation.
Today, in the information age, when graphical algebraic techniques
created a significant impact on computing world, the students in
Bangladesh deserve to learn Algebra through graphical approach.
Bangladesh, therfore, should revise it's Algebra Text books and Teaching
method to accommodate graphical approach to solve Algebraic problems.
Hassan Alam
Love to see the students comprehend 4+ dimintional algebra
with graphics. Algebra is too teach abstract mathematical
thought that can be applied to geometry.
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: Elementary, Intermediate and College Algebra in Bangladesh are
--
Hassan Alam
Sohel Q. Khan
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Supratic Gupta wrote:
> Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
>
> > Would Bangladeshi families learn to maintain their family names?
> >
>
> Or would rest of the world care to understand that this
> family name is the shit concept that kept the caste system
> alive in India.
>
> If it was not for family name, who would know what caste any one
> belong.
>
> Gupta
>
Thanks for your comment Supratic Gupta.
Moazzem Hossain
Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
>
> Elementary, Intermediate and College Algebra in Bangladesh are
> taught with too much of "Algebraic" technique with very little
> graphical approach. Bangladeshi students, therefore, cannot
> comprehend the concept of functions together with it's pictorial
> representation.
Really? I would love to see on what basis you could come to
such a generalized conclusion.
> Bangladesh, therfore, should revise it's Algebra Text books and Teaching
> method to accommodate graphical approach to solve Algebraic problems.
It is always good to analyze the current teaching material and
techniques to improve the whole education system. But suggesting
a complete revision of the whole Algebra textbooks and Algebra
teaching techniques based on your hypothetical statement is a bit
naive and irresponsible. Please be more specific on what
graphical approaches Bangladesh should accomodate.
Moazzem Hossain
Supratic Gupta
zmh...@cs.toronto.edu
In article <pPKZQO...@delphi.com>, Aeonderer <av...@delphi.com> wrote:
|: "Sohel Q. Khan" <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> writes:
|:
|: >
|: >[Another controversial topic:]
|: >
|:
|: you call this a topic !!???
|:
|: >In Bangladesh, many familes choose the last name of their children as
|: >"Islam". The increase in naming this last name followed after the wide
|: >spread publicity of a great Bangladeshi poet Kazi Nazrul Islam.
|: >
|: >Should people's last name be "Islam"?
|: >
|:
|: <msg snipped by popular demand>
|:
|: i just wonder other than me are there any other suckers who'd even bother to
|: answer to this pathetic cry for a post. lame. just too darn lame.
|:
I am one of those "suckers" (Count Dracula type, you know) who wants
to discuss to death, nah, to trillion bites, whether "Khan" is an Islamic
family name. Don't recall any Arabs having that family name. After all,
a Muslim has to have a Arabic name (middle, first, last, left, right, ...)!
So is "Khan" an Arabic family name? Wait a second! Chengis Khan does ring
a bell, yes, that's a Mongol family name ...
Well, the Bangla meaning of the word is pretty obvious.
Seriously, does a Muslim really has to have a Arabic name?
|: aA...
|: gos...
later,
Masum [that's my Arabic first name, meaning "innocent", gee!]
Ziaul [that's my Arabic Middle name, meaning "bright light" ah!]
Hasan [that's my Arabic last name, meaning "beauty" bahba!]
[probably my parents were playing Arabic crossword puzzles just
before they came up with my name ... anyways, what's in a name?
it's your inner beauty that counts ... do I sound like a Hasan
(beauty, that is) queen in a competition? ..]
Masum Z. Hasan [American style]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bell Laboratories (Research), Holmdel, NJ, USA
email: mas...@bell-labs.com
WWW: http://www.bell-labs.com/~masumh/
http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~zmhasan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
K.M. Maniruzzaman
In article
<Pine.OSF.3.95q.97021...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>, "Sohel Q.
Khan" <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
>[Another controversial topic:]
>
>In Bangladesh, many familes choose the last name of their children as
>"Islam". The increase in naming this last name followed after the wide
>spread publicity of a great Bangladeshi poet Kazi Nazrul Islam.
>
>Should people's last name be "Islam"?
>
>Islam is a name of a religion, the way of life; can be the first name of
>a person, however, it should not be owned by families as their family
>names.
>
Islam is not a family name. Nazrul Islam's son could be named
Kazi Aniruddha. Nurul Islam's son could be Rahim Miah. Most Muslims,
in Bangladesh at least, don't have family names. I hear that Islam
discourages family names because one should not be judged by the
family one belongs to.
--
Manir
ma...@okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
ma...@asami.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
URL: http://okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/okabelab/manir/manir.html
=====================================================================
"The rich get richer, the poor get children" -- G.B. Shaw
Mohammed Hasanuz Zaman
I don't understand this big fuss about last name. Why is this so
important that we have to follow everything that the western world
is following? You asked when we will learn to follow this custom
of keeping the family name. I ask you why you think this is so
important. What is the problem if someone doesn't keep the same
last name as his/her parents?
I have found absolutely no virtue in keeping the family name
tradition. It was probably important for people who like to
take pride in their noble ancestries.
I don't have the same last name as my father. My father's name
is Md. Abdur Rahim. I don't have any problem with that.
If your own performance is more important to you than your heritage,
I think, you don't need to bring in a headache about family
names. Better utilize your time to surpass your family glory and
become even more glorious.
Anyways, I didn't mean to offend anyone. If someone thinks that keeping
the family name tradition has some merit, please feel free to do so.
But please don't impose your judgement on others without showing the
logistics.
Thanks,
MHZ
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mohammed Hasanuz Zaman, Phone: (313) 764-1374, Fax: (313) 647-1781
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~mhasan
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
K.M. Maniruzzaman
In article
<Pine.OSF.3.95q.97021...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>, "Sohel Q.
Khan" <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
>Here is a Sona Mia names his son Kala Uddin and the Kala Uddin names his
>son Zafar Ahmed.
>
>If Zafar Ahmed goes to school, gets educated and names his son
>Ulluk Ahmed Valluk.
>
[...]
>
>When Bangladeshis come to the western countries or even in China, they are
>silently asked about the reason of their family name mismatch.
>
>Would Bangladeshi families learn to maintain their family names?
>
>Sohel Khan
Why should they? Most Bangladeshis don't go to China or western countries.
And it creates no problem in Bangladesh. And how can they maintain
family names if they don't have one? They'd have to invent one.
Sohel Q. Khan
Dear Hasan:
For "certain reason" I posted 'THE LAST NAME "ISLAM"', I would appreciate
you would not change the name of the subject from my post to
something else. You have right to criticize, submit or start another
thread, this is just my request since I don't subscribe all kind of
thread.
I'll use the word "please" to you and to others not to change the
subject name to carry on same debate on another thread.
The result of the "certain reason" will be posted on the SCB after
six months.
Sincerely,
Sohel Khan
Sohel Q. Khan
An educated group of people in Bangladesh are not happy with their
"real" names. They name their children with "real" names that should be
written in birth certificates, passports, IDs or in school registers.
However, they name their children with another short name called
"NICK" name. When the children grow up in their homes they are not
addressed by their "real" but the "nick" names. I have no idea how
this nick tradition evolved within Bangladeshi "educated" city dwellers.
A close look at few of these nick names reveals some interesting outlook
of the Bangladeshi "educated" society. For example, a few of these
human nick names are actually names of fruits such as Grape (An-guur),
Orange (Komola), Apple ( AApel). It is worth to note that most of these
fruits are imported in Bangladesh from other countries. On the other hand,
these "educated" Bangladeshis do not find interest in nick-naming their
children with tropical fruits such as Mango ( AAM), Banana ( Ka-la), Jack
Fruit ( Kathal).
Would Bangladeshi families divert their "nick-interest" towards tropical
fruits!!
Any comment (Good/ bad/ personal)?
Sohel Khan
University of Kansas
Moazzem Hossain
Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
>
>
>
> When Bangladeshis come to the western countries or even in China, they are
> silently asked about the reason of their family name mismatch.
Yet another generalization by you, Mr. Sohel Khan. How many Bangladeshis
go to China. And how many Bangladeshis in the US you know have been
(silently?) asked about their family name mismatch.
>
> Would Bangladeshi families learn to maintain their family names?
Why should they? So that some people can prejudice against others
based on the family names? There is a term 'khandani' in Bangladesh.
I hope you know what that means. I have seen people using the term
'khandani' with pride describing their family!
And from my very personal first hand experience, the custodian of
your Islamic brotherhood of Islamic Ummah, i.e. Saudi Arabia, uses
this family names to identify who are Shi'a and Sunni. And believe me,
Shi'as in Saudi Arabia can never go too far in anywhere in their
career. Also from the family name, Saudis can tell you if you are a
migrant Saudi or Native Saudi!!!
Moazzem "did not keep the family name" Hossain
Zunaid Kazi
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95q.97021...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>,
Sohel Q. Khan <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
>
>
>For "certain reason" I posted 'THE LAST NAME "ISLAM"', I would appreciate
>you would not change the name of the subject from my post to
>something else. You have right to criticize, submit or start another
>thread, this is just my request since I don't subscribe all kind of
>thread.
>
>I'll use the word "please" to you and to others not to change the
>subject name to carry on same debate on another thread.
If the thread changes it is eminently logical to change the subject to
conform to the change. Given the nature of debates/discussions on
usenet discussion groups, the topic seldom reflect the subject after
a while. And for those who wish to partake of intellegint discussion
based on a careful perusal of subject lines, it is only poiite and
courteous to change the subject to reflect the change. Anything to
the contrary is rather anal.
>The result of the "certain reason" will be posted on the SCB after
>six months.
Why not now?
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Zunaid Kazi ka...@asel.udel.edu (or @cis or @strauss)
AI, HCI and Robotics http://www.asel.udel.edu/~kazi/
ASEL http://www.asel.udel.edu/~kazi/bangladesh/
Saiful Haque
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
> A close look at few of these nick names reveals some interesting outlook
> of the Bangladeshi "educated" society. For example, a few of these
> human nick names are actually names of fruits such as Grape (An-guur),
> Orange (Komola), Apple ( AApel). It is worth to note that most of these
> fruits are imported in Bangladesh from other countries. On the other hand,
> these "educated" Bangladeshis do not find interest in nick-naming their
> children with tropical fruits such as Mango ( AAM), Banana ( Ka-la), Jack
> Fruit ( Kathal).
> Would Bangladeshi families divert their "nick-interest" towards tropical
> fruits!!
> Any comment (Good/ bad/ personal)?
Bhaijan..cholen ekkhan kam kori.. ami amar pola hoile nam rakhum Jambura
ar apne apnar maiyar nam raikhen Jolpai begom.. boro hoile Jamburar loge
Jolpai Begom er biya dimu..Ki kon..kharap koilam??? khoda hafez
Saif
University of North Texas
Naeem Mohaiemen
Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
> A close look at few of these nick names reveals some interesting outlook
> of the Bangladeshi "educated" society. For example, a few of these
> human nick names are actually names of fruits such as Grape (An-guur),
> Orange (Komola), Apple ( AApel). It is worth to note that most of these
> fruits are imported in Bangladesh from other countries. On the other hand,
> these "educated" Bangladeshis do not find interest in nick-naming their
> children with tropical fruits such as Mango ( AAM), Banana ( Ka-la), Jack
> Fruit ( Kathal).
>
> Would Bangladeshi families divert their "nick-interest" towards tropical
> fruits!!
Sohel Mia(n), thomar hoise ta ki?
Valentine's day the kono love-letter ba chocolates na paiyya ki thomar
matha ekdhom kharap hoe gese?
Egula ki likhteso?......
Anyway, amio thomar shathe ekmoth:
BIDESHI fruit hotao!!!!!!!!!
"Deshio ponno
Khaiyya hou dhonno!"
Bangla'r mati
Durjoi ghati
Bujhbe fruit-seller ra...
--
Naeem Mohaiemen
sayan bhattacharyya
>> A close look at few of these nick names reveals some interesting outlook
>> of the Bangladeshi "educated" society. For example, a few of these
>> human nick names are actually names of fruits such as Grape (An-guur),
>> Orange (Komola), Apple ( AApel). It is worth to note that most of these
>> fruits are imported in Bangladesh from other countries. On the other hand,
>> these "educated" Bangladeshis do not find interest in nick-naming their
>> children with tropical fruits such as Mango ( AAM), Banana ( Ka-la), Jack
>> Fruit ( Kathal).
>>
>> Would Bangladeshi families divert their "nick-interest" towards tropical
>> fruits!!
Should we give him the annual scb medal for political correctness? :-)
--
Sayan Bhattacharyya | Information is in
Artificial Intelligence Lab | the mind of the beholder.
Electrical Engineering & Computer Science|
The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor | - Ray Jackendoff
Naeem Mohaiemen
> > Orange (Komola), Apple ( AApel). It is worth to note that most of these
> > fruits are imported in Bangladesh from other countries. On the other hand,
> > these "educated" Bangladeshis do not find interest in nick-naming their
> > children with tropical fruits such as Mango ( AAM), Banana ( Ka-la), Jack
> > Fruit ( Kathal).
> Saiful Haque wrote:
> Bhaijan..cholen ekkhan kam kori.. ami amar pola hoile nam rakhum Jambura
> ar apne apnar maiyar nam raikhen Jolpai begom.. boro hoile Jamburar loge
> Jolpai Begom er biya dimu..
Deykhen, pore abar apnar pola Jolpai-re bhortha koyra achar na banai...
--
Naeem Mohaiemen
_____________________________________________________
Everyone's your friend in New York City
And everything looks beautiful when you're young and pretty
The streets are paved with diamond and there's just so much to see
-They Might Be Giants
______________________________________________________
Hassan Alam
In the interest of harmony with Malaysia, I suggest their national
fruit - Durian. Messy, smelly, but thought of by malaysians
as "King of Fruit" and eaten in large quantities with the
the appropriate side effects. :).
Distribution:
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: An educated group of people in Bangladesh are not happy with their
: "real" names. They name their children with "real" names that should be
: written in birth certificates, passports, IDs or in school registers.
: However, they name their children with another short name called
: "NICK" name. When the children grow up in their homes they are not
: addressed by their "real" but the "nick" names. I have no idea how
: this nick tradition evolved within Bangladeshi "educated" city dwellers.
: A close look at few of these nick names reveals some interesting outlook
: of the Bangladeshi "educated" society. For example, a few of these
: human nick names are actually names of fruits such as Grape (An-guur),
: Orange (Komola), Apple ( AApel). It is worth to note that most of these
: fruits are imported in Bangladesh from other countries. On the other hand,
: these "educated" Bangladeshis do not find interest in nick-naming their
: children with tropical fruits such as Mango ( AAM), Banana ( Ka-la), Jack
: Fruit ( Kathal).
: Would Bangladeshi families divert their "nick-interest" towards tropical
: fruits!!
: Any comment (Good/ bad/ personal)?
: Sohel Khan
: University of Kansas
: ##
: #
: ##### #
: #
: ##### #
: #
: ##
--
Hassan Alam
Nabeel Ali
K.M. Maniruzzaman (ma...@okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) wrote:
: In article
: Khan" <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
: >Here is a Sona Mia names his son Kala Uddin and the Kala Uddin names his
: >son Zafar Ahmed.
: >
: >If Zafar Ahmed goes to school, gets educated and names his son
: >Ulluk Ahmed Valluk.
: >
: [...]
: >
: >When Bangladeshis come to the western countries or even in China, they are
: >silently asked about the reason of their family name mismatch.
: >
: >Would Bangladeshi families learn to maintain their family names?
: >
: >Sohel Khan
:
: Why should they? Most Bangladeshis don't go to China or western countries.
: And it creates no problem in Bangladesh. And how can they maintain
: family names if they don't have one? They'd have to invent one.
: --
: Manir
: ma...@okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
: ma...@asami.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
: URL: http://okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/okabelab/manir/manir.html
: =====================================================================
: "The rich get richer, the poor get children" -- G.B. Shaw
As far as I am concerned, this last name tradition is primarily sexist,
even though it serves a few practical purposes. Then again, any social
custom, accepted and used over a long period of time, will naturally have
some practical purposes that it serves, regardless of the its moral status
and all. So, far from wanting to assimilate into a last name basis culture
(which is probably the most of the world), I would rather suggest exactly
the opposite - do something to defocus the attention toward last names by
focusing on the first - know the person, not their parents!!
Ihtisham Kabir
Long ago, I knew a family - 2 brothers and a sister - called
Aam, Jaam, Lichu. I also know one Mosha, a Dollar, and two
brothers called Pial and Tomal. There are lots of Komolas
in Bangladesh (some of them even Sundari) but I know of no
Angur and Aapel (although such people exist, I am sure.)
There are also Aanars and Bedanas by the dozens.
I would like to see a Shatkora, a KaaThal and possibly
a Kola, but I am not sure if we can handle a Durian (would
they be chronic gas sufferers?)
Therefore I contend that local fruits are given a lot of
importance in nicknaming.
- I.
Moo
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
> [snippy...mrrreeeowww!!!]
> Orange (Komola), Apple ( AApel). It is worth to note that most of these
> fruits are imported in Bangladesh from other countries. On the other hand,
> these "educated" Bangladeshis do not find interest in nick-naming their
> children with tropical fruits such as Mango ( AAM), Banana ( Ka-la), Jack
> Fruit ( Kathal).
>
> Would Bangladeshi families divert their "nick-interest" towards tropical
> fruits!!
>
> Any comment (Good/ bad/ personal)?
Funny you should ask, Sohel! You always did strike me as a
Kathal: thick-skinned, slippery and possessing a particularly strong
flavour.
Before you get all riled up, I should say I'm just kidding.
My excuse is that it's 4:15 in the morning. What in the world made you
start this thread?
Jay "Aam" Rahman.
Saif Ahmed
ka...@stimpy.eecis.udel.edu (Zunaid Kazi) writes:
> >The result of the "certain reason" will be posted on the SCB after
> >six months.
>
> Why not now?
Zunaid, still haven't learnt the value of patience. Let the boy
think. ;)
Shoumyo Dasgupta
> Angur and Aapel (although such people exist, I am sure.)
Haven't heard of Aapel Mahmud, the Bangladeshi singer ?
Haven't heard of Angurbala, the WBengali Nazrulgeeti doyen ?
Shoumyo.
Shamim A. Khandekar
> Sohel Mia(n), thomar hoise ta ki?
>
> Valentine's day the kono love-letter ba chocolates na paiyya ki thomar
> matha ekdhom kharap hoe gese?
>
> Egula ki likhteso?......
>
> Anyway, amio thomar shathe ekmoth:
>
> BIDESHI fruit hotao!!!!!!!!!
>
> "Deshio ponno
> Khaiyya hou dhonno!"
>
> Bangla'r mati
> Durjoi ghati
> Bujhbe fruit-seller ra...
>
> --
> Naeem Mohaiemen
> > Valentine's day the kono love-letter ba chocolates na paiyya ki thomar
> > matha ekdhom kharap hoe gese?
> >
> > Egula ki likhteso?......
Assalamoalikum. Poree khoob ananda pelam. Tobe eta Sylheti vashai na
Patuakhali dialect'e likechen bujte parlam na.
Naeem Mohaiemen
Shamim A. Khandekar wrote:
>
> In article <3304AC...@homebox.com>, naeem.m...@homebox.com wrote:
>
> > Sohel Mia(n), thomar hoise ta ki?
> > Valentine's day the kono love-letter ba chocolates na paiyya ki thomar
> > matha ekdhom kharap hoe gese?
> > Egula ki likhteso?......
> >
> > Anyway, amio thomar shathe ekmoth:
> >
> > BIDESHI fruit hotao!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > "Deshio ponno
> > Khaiyya hou dhonno!"
> >
> > Bangla'r mati
> > Durjoi ghati
> > Bujhbe fruit-seller ra...
> Assalamoalikum. Poree khoob ananda pelam. Tobe eta Sylheti vashai na
> Patuakhali dialect'e likechen bujte parlam na.
Walaikum.
Eyta poyra thumi mone korla Sylheti?? Chi, chi! O the shame, kothae
lukai..
Jodio ami 'alf-Slyhoti, amar ma'e Sylheti baath shikhai nai, ar
Patuakhali r dialect ektu adhtu jani, thobe eyta thao na.
Pach-mishali, cholthi , kichuta Dhakaiyya (amar version) bhasha.
Sohel Q. Khan
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
> Love to see the students comprehend 4+ dimintional algebra
> with graphics. Algebra is too teach abstract mathematical
> thought that can be applied to geometry.
I have been teaching Algebra to students at this
University for three years and researchig (with a professor) on 1800
students taking Algebra each semester. We have used various
teaching techniques to find the best which suits the student's need i.e.
the students can learn Algebra quickly. Our research finding indicates
that the students learn Algebra when Graphical Method is introduced. We
not necessarily need to have 4+ D algebra, we have only used 2 D ( X and
Y axis). Most of the schools in the USA are now switching their Algebra
teaching method from abstact to Graphics.
Sohel Khan
>
> Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
>
>
> : Elementary, Intermediate and College Algebra in Bangladesh are
> : taught with too much of "Algebraic" technique with very little
> : graphical approach. Bangladeshi students, therefore, cannot
> : comprehend the concept of functions together with it's pictorial
> : representation.
>
> : Today, in the information age, when graphical algebraic techniques
> : created a significant impact on computing world, the students in
> : Bangladesh deserve to learn Algebra through graphical approach.
>
> : Bangladesh, therfore, should revise it's Algebra Text books and Teaching
> : method to accommodate graphical approach to solve Algebraic problems.
>
Sohel Q. Khan
On Fri, 21 Feb 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
> I think one of the main purposes of algebra is to teach
> abstract thought. Too bad these student dont get that
> training.
There were three professors, 20 teaching assistant, 200 tutor/teacher and
approximately 4*2*1800 students were involved in this research. All kind
of teaching techniques were used and students also received abstract
thought. Five years were spent in the research. Two papers were published
and three were presented.
>
> Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
Hassan Alam
I think one of the main purposes of algebra is to teach
abstract thought. Too bad these student dont get that
training.
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
Hassan Alam
Know a groupd of 1000 of students who learnt algebra
the hard way. They *all* did *exceedingly* well. Without looking
at actual papers that compares results with reference groups,
not able to comment on your experience. Have seen lots of papers
in my field (natural language) from "respected" institutions,
which deserve to be published in the journal of irreproducable results.
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: On Fri, 21 Feb 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
: > I think one of the main purposes of algebra is to teach
: > abstract thought. Too bad these student dont get that
: > training.
: There were three professors, 20 teaching assistant, 200 tutor/teacher and
: approximately 4*2*1800 students were involved in this research. All kind
: of teaching techniques were used and students also received abstract
: thought. Five years were spent in the research. Two papers were published
: and three were presented.
: >
: >
Aeonderer
Hassan Alam <has...@netcom.com> writes:
>: > Love to see the students comprehend 4+ dimintional algebra
>: > with graphics. Algebra is too teach abstract mathematical
>: > thought that can be applied to geometry.
now if a bandor (grease monkey must you have) decides to climb a banyanly
erect Dhakai mobil slick bamboo
at the speed of 5 lightyears per year and slides down 3 lightyears per next
year (provided not a leap year) and mine and your monitors are fluctuating
but at the same time-space continium, provided also here that nemesis is but
just a theory and ours is not a binary star system, and the bamboo is x metres
high whereas x is neither 0, infinity or infinity over zero, and is reversely
proportional to the number of Shahjahan Tapan's functional brain cells.
Note: the bamboo is not situated in any designated lands owned by
neither Dabir or Saber.
turn in your answer to the nearest dumpster by this millenium.
1st correct answer would win a trip (one way) to Ghorashaal fertilizer factory
for both you and your significant other.
now go and lick a stamp...
aA...
gos...
Moo
On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
>
> > I think one of the main purposes of algebra is to teach
> > abstract thought. Too bad these student dont get that
> > training.
>
>
> There were three professors, 20 teaching assistant, 200 tutor/teacher and
> approximately 4*2*1800 students were involved in this research. All kind
> of teaching techniques were used and students also received abstract
> thought. Five years were spent in the research. Two papers were published
> and three were presented.
Boy, does this sound like a story problem. The only thing that's
missing is the "find the..." or "what is..." at the end.
"...students received abstract thought..." Now THERE'S something
I'd liked to have seen.
Jay A. Rahman.
Tanveer Choudhury
I think the basis is when we were taught calculus in 12th grade we
didn't really know the what integration and differentiation were. There
was a little bit of limits but it wasn't studied because it didn't appear
in the tests. But I have seen the highschool math and physics book of a
friend of mine who is from India. Physics was basically calculus based
and to do that you really have to know that how calculus works.
I realized that this method of teaching (just knowing how to apply
the formulas and not knowing much theory) was very detrimental to me. I
had to readjust my study habits to the system here, which took me some
time.
Tanveer Choudhury
___________________________________________________________________________
University of Maryland Collegepark "Go TERPS"
Dept. of Mathematics
Dept. of Computer Science
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Moazzem Hossain wrote:
> Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
> >
> > Elementary, Intermediate and College Algebra in Bangladesh are
> > taught with too much of "Algebraic" technique with very little
> > graphical approach. Bangladeshi students, therefore, cannot
> > comprehend the concept of functions together with it's pictorial
> > representation.
>
> Really? I would love to see on what basis you could come to
> such a generalized conclusion.
>
> > Bangladesh, therfore, should revise it's Algebra Text books and Teaching
> > method to accommodate graphical approach to solve Algebraic problems.
>
> It is always good to analyze the current teaching material and
> techniques to improve the whole education system. But suggesting
> a complete revision of the whole Algebra textbooks and Algebra
> teaching techniques based on your hypothetical statement is a bit
> naive and irresponsible. Please be more specific on what
> graphical approaches Bangladesh should accomodate.
>
> Moazzem Hossain
Hassan Alam
Sounds like you had bad math teachers. Had similar experience in
Physics, where one could get lost in the math without understanding
the physics. Once one understood the physics, the math was just a
tool.
Tanveer Choudhury (tan...@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
: I think the basis is when we were taught calculus in 12th grade we
: >
: >
--
Hassan Alam
Sohel Q. Khan
> On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Moazzem Hossain wrote:
>
> > Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
> > >
> > > Elementary, Intermediate and College Algebra in Bangladesh are
> > > taught with too much of "Algebraic" technique with very little
> > > graphical approach. Bangladeshi students, therefore, cannot
> > > comprehend the concept of functions together with it's pictorial
> > > representation.
> >
> > Really? I would love to see on what basis you could come to
> > such a generalized conclusion.
> >
> > > Bangladesh, therfore, should revise it's Algebra Text books and Teaching
> > > method to accommodate graphical approach to solve Algebraic problems.
> >
> > It is always good to analyze the current teaching material and
> > techniques to improve the whole education system. But suggesting
> > a complete revision of the whole Algebra textbooks and Algebra
> > teaching techniques based on your hypothetical statement is a bit
> > naive and irresponsible. Please be more specific on what
Graphical apporach of teaching Algebra is quite new. A research is
being conducted at the University of Kansas since 1991 to 1996.
The subject of this research are students approx ( 4*2*1800) from
various part of the USA including other countries. Various teaching
approach were used to find the best. Research finding indicates that
Graphical approach suits the student's best need. Graphical approach
not necessarily remove all theoretical/abstract techinique,however,
adds graphics to the old approach of just teaching the theory.
This technique is very modern and new, various schools in the West
have just started to adopt it. Quesiton is whether Bangladesh will
sit back and watch or also be a part of research?
In any way, hypotheseis is always presented without proof, later
hypothesis are either accepted or rejected from the research findings.
Therefore, presenting any hypothesis is not naive and irresponsible.
Sohel Khan
Tanveer Choudhury
I did pretty good in physics and math both in SSC and HSC. But
that's not the point. The math in physics which is taught in Bangladesh is
pretty simple and nothing so complicated not to understand.
Well the point is we had a chapter on matrices and didn't know
what a matrix is. But we could do all the simplification and stuff.
Similarly we were not taught that intigration was area under the curve ir
differantiation is the rate of change. It wasn't even in the book.
I think algebra upto 10th grade was pretty cool. I think they try
to cover too much material(statics dynamics) but not enough theory. I dont
understand why put statics and dynamics in math. I think it would have
been much better if they taught calculus more rigorously.
Again math is not just a tool. Applied math is. But you probably
dont know there is pure math too.
Tanveer
On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
> Sounds like you had bad math teachers. Had similar experience in
> Physics, where one could get lost in the math without understanding
> the physics. Once one understood the physics, the math was just a
> tool.
>
>
> : ___________________________________________________________________________
> : University of Maryland Collegepark "Go TERPS"
> : Dept. of Mathematics
> : Dept. of Computer Science
> : ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> : On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Moazzem Hossain wrote:
>
> : > Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
> : > >
> : > > Elementary, Intermediate and College Algebra in Bangladesh are
> : > > taught with too much of "Algebraic" technique with very little
> : > > graphical approach. Bangladeshi students, therefore, cannot
> : > > comprehend the concept of functions together with it's pictorial
> : > > representation.
> : >
> : > Really? I would love to see on what basis you could come to
> : > such a generalized conclusion.
> : >
> : > > Bangladesh, therfore, should revise it's Algebra Text books and Teaching
> : > > method to accommodate graphical approach to solve Algebraic problems.
> : >
> : > It is always good to analyze the current teaching material and
> : > techniques to improve the whole education system. But suggesting
> : > a complete revision of the whole Algebra textbooks and Algebra
> : > teaching techniques based on your hypothetical statement is a bit
> : > naive and irresponsible. Please be more specific on what
> : > graphical approaches Bangladesh should accomodate.
> : >
> : > Moazzem Hossain
> : >
> : > >
> : > > Sohel Khan
> : > > University of Kansas
> : > > ##
> : > > #
> : > > ##### #
> : > > #
> : > > ##### #
> : > > #
> : > > ##
> : >
> : >
>
> --
> Hassan Alam
>
>
Hassan Alam
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
[snip]
: This technique is very modern and new, various schools in the West
: have just started to adopt it. Quesiton is whether Bangladesh will
: sit back and watch or also be a part of research?
Bangladesh can do a lot without picking up the "latest unproven
technique". Given Bangladesh is not doing so, I would not hold
your breath if I were you.
--
Hassan Alam
Hassan Alam
om> <Pine.SOL.3.95.97022...@rac1.wam.umd.edu>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
Distribution:
Tanveer Choudhury (tan...@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
: Again math is not just a tool. Applied math is. But you probably
: dont know there is pure math too.
Pure math, is that like Pure Aryans :).
:
: Tanveer
:
: >
: >
--
Hassan Alam
Moazzem Hossain
Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Moazzem Hossain wrote:
> >
> > > Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Elementary, Intermediate and College Algebra in Bangladesh are
> > > > taught with too much of "Algebraic" technique with very little
> > > > graphical approach. Bangladeshi students, therefore, cannot
> > > > comprehend the concept of functions together with it's pictorial
> > > > representation.
> > >
> > > Really? I would love to see on what basis you could come to
> > > such a generalized conclusion.
> > >
> > > > Bangladesh, therfore, should revise it's Algebra Text books and Teaching
> > > > method to accommodate graphical approach to solve Algebraic problems.
> > >
> > > It is always good to analyze the current teaching material and
> > > techniques to improve the whole education system. But suggesting
> > > a complete revision of the whole Algebra textbooks and Algebra
> > > teaching techniques based on your hypothetical statement is a bit
> > > naive and irresponsible. Please be more specific on what
>
> being conducted at the University of Kansas since 1991 to 1996.
> The subject of this research are students approx ( 4*2*1800) from
> various part of the USA including other countries. Various teaching
> approach were used to find the best. Research finding indicates that
> Graphical approach suits the student's best need. Graphical approach
> not necessarily remove all theoretical/abstract techinique,however,
> adds graphics to the old approach of just teaching the theory.
>
> have just started to adopt it. Quesiton is whether Bangladesh will
> sit back and watch or also be a part of research?
Given the fact that Bangladesh have so many other problems and
challenges to
deal with and despite the lack of enough educational resources, have
been
producing some good number of graduates from universities and many of
whom
do quite well in the higher education abroad, is it practical to spend
money on the teaching technique on Algebra?
>
> In any way, hypotheseis is always presented without proof, later
> hypothesis are either accepted or rejected from the research findings.
> Therefore, presenting any hypothesis is not naive and irresponsible.
Asking to implement a hypothesis is naive to me and many might call it
irresponsible. What happens if the hypothesis fails? Who takes the
responsibility? Where would the money come from to implement?
Moazzem
>
> Sohel Khan
>
> > > graphical approaches Bangladesh should accomodate.
> > >
> > > Moazzem Hossain
>
Mohammad Gani
In article <331388...@eng.sun.com>,
Moazzem Hossain <moazzem...@eng.sun.com> wrote:
In my humble opinion, graphical and audio-visual teaching aids make it
easier for students to grasp abstarct concepts. But th e best is to
illustrate abstract concpets with concrete rela life examples. Good
textbooks are to be thought of as capital.
I believe that there are by now enough people in Bangladesh who can afford
a better quality book produced by the private sector.
Sohel Q. Khan
On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
> Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Bangladesh can do a lot without picking up the "latest unproven
> technique". Given Bangladesh is not doing so, I would not hold
> your breath if I were you.
It is not "latest unproven technique", it is proved in a few
Universities in the USA through research (perhaps you missed some
of my post) and other schools are adopting it now. Bangladesh should
adopt it too, or we will fall behind.
>
>
> --
> Hassan Alam
Sohel Q. Khan
Do you know how to READ? Would you plese READ the whole above posts
and try to find that the Hypothesis of teaching Algebra in graphical
approach was under RESEARCH for five years and it was proven.
Are you trying to prove yourselve as an irresponble and naive reader
of the internet?
( Oh I forgot the famous Bagladeshi Character:
"I wanna be winner in the debate...")
Thanks
>
> >
> > Sohel Khan
> >
> > > > graphical approaches Bangladesh should accomodate.
> > > >
> > > > Moazzem Hossain
> >
Sohel Q. Khan
On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Mohammad Gani wrote:
>
> In my humble opinion, graphical and audio-visual teaching aids make it
> easier for students to grasp abstarct concepts. But th e best is to
> illustrate abstract concpets with concrete rela life examples. Good
> textbooks are to be thought of as capital.
> I believe that there are by now enough people in Bangladesh who can afford
> a better quality book produced by the private sector.
>
>
Thanks Mr. Gani for your good comment. In our research we used abstract
approach plus graphical approach. In our graphical approach we did not
completely eliminate abstract concepts, we rather enhanced it by graph.
We also used concrete real life examples. You are also correct saying
since we will not be able have graphical aid, we should rely on good
text books which will illustrate graphical approach.
Sohel Q. Khan
Bangladeshi students prove themselves as the brightest students
in Computer Science when they go to study in America, Europe and
Japan. Yet , these are the only a few students of Bangladesh, a country
that represent a population of 125 Million. While a few Bangladeshi students
write very complex algorithms of various programming language in abroad,
the majority Bangladeshi students studying in Bangladesh high schools
never even seen a computer program. Bangladeshi high schools, where
talented students are abundant who will be willing to learn computer
programs should be given a chance to take a Computer Science class.
Therefore, a new subject Computer Science should be introduced in
Bangladeshi high schools and in exams such as SSC and HSC. It is true
that Bangladeshi high schools will not be able to buy computers, however,
an alternative method should be developed such as fill in the blank,
True/False, writing programs, and learning about computers. Bangladesh
should not sit idle while the rest of the world are moving up in Computer
Science; it may not have money to buy thousands of computers,
however, Bangladeshis are smart, they will be able to discover alternative
approach of teaching COMPUTER SCIENCE in high schools without computers.
Sohel Khan
University of Kansas
##
Supratic Gupta
Tanveer Choudhury wrote:
>
> I think the basis is when we were taught calculus in 12th grade we
> didn't really know the what integration and differentiation were.
I had learnt these immidiately after class X. I always tell anyone to do
so
because it helps in Physics class
Tanveer Choudhury
Was there a study done or you just concluded that Bangladeshi
students do good in Computer Science? Because, computer science is *not*
computer programming. Someone can be a very good coder but not a very good
computer scientist.
Does Bangladeshi students do good only in America, Euorope and
Japan ? How about Austalia and Sudan? Do they do good in those places??
:-) Just kidding.
Tanveer
___________________________________________________________________________
Tanveer Choudhury
President, ACM @UMCP
University of Maryland Collegepark "up, up and away"
Dept. of Mathematics
Dept. of Computer Science
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hassan Alam
There are theory classes in CS which, but if you remember back to
your CS class, most of the learning is done in spending 3 nights
straigth in debugging your program...
Math classes in group algorithms, and group threory would ofcours
help...
--
Hassan Alam
Moo
On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
> Do you know how to READ? Would you plese READ the whole above posts
> and try to find that the Hypothesis of teaching Algebra in graphical
> approach was under RESEARCH for five years and it was proven.
"Proven" in a single study for a test group in the Midwestern
United States...what Shakil Ahmed does for induction, you do for
statistics.
Jay A. Rahman.
bstal...@aol.com
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95q.97022...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>, "Sohel Q. Khan" <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> writes:
>It is true
>that Bangladeshi high schools will not be able to buy computers,
This is a sore point with me. As one of my charitable works, I ask my friends and acquaintances not to throw away or give away anything before consulting me. I take cast-off goods of all kinds and try to get them to Charitable Institutions where they can be used, using my truck and small trailer. Then I return a receipt to the giver, for Income Tax purposes. I've trafficked in everything from used clothing to musical instruments to household furniture. One thing I receive now and again are out-dated computers. These are usually DOS-based, and XT or AT class. They won't run modern Windows programs, and they usually have monocolor monitors. What they will do is run BASIC and other lower level programming languages, and run low- memory-requiring programs that sell now mostly as shareware. I give these to Children's Homes, churches, schools, etc.
These lower tech machines are available in the US for a pittance, and if I were a Bengali student I think I'd be happy to learn computing on them. The problem is that by the time transportation costs, tariffs, and taxes are paid (I won't count graft, for I haven't dealt with that) these computers become too expensive to send out of country - not just to BD, but to any country. It looks like the Government could make some kind of accomodation to those wanting to give items to their schools and other institutions. Comments?
Bob Stallings
Sohel Q. Khan
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Tanveer Choudhury wrote:
>
>
> Was there a study done or you just concluded that Bangladeshi
> students do good in Computer Science? Because, computer science is *not*
> computer programming. Someone can be a very good coder but not a very good
> computer scientist.
> Does Bangladeshi students do good only in America, Euorope and
> Japan ? How about Austalia and Sudan? Do they do good in those places??
> :-) Just kidding.
> Tanveer
> ___________________________________________________________________________
> Tanveer Choudhury
> President, ACM @UMCP
> University of Maryland Collegepark "up, up and away"
> Dept. of Mathematics
> Dept. of Computer Science
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your good feedback. I am not aware of any study done
to say Bangladeshi students are good in Computer Science. It was my
opinion based on my observation on the Bangladeshi undergraduate
studying here in this university. All of them are excellent
students in computer science, their fathers are rich therefore they
are here in the USA. However, most of their friends are in Bangladesh
and never saw a program even written in Basics. We will not be able
to effort to have full computer programming class in Bangladeshi
High Schools, however, we will able to have something introductory.
Sorry, I forgot about Australia and Sudan.
Sohel Khan
>
>
>
> On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
>
> >
> > Bangladeshi students prove themselves as the brightest students
> > in Computer Science when they go to study in America, Europe and
> > Japan. Yet , these are the only a few students of Bangladesh, a country
> > that represent a population of 125 Million. While a few Bangladeshi students
> > write very complex algorithms of various programming language in abroad,
> > the majority Bangladeshi students studying in Bangladesh high schools
> > never even seen a computer program. Bangladeshi high schools, where
> > talented students are abundant who will be willing to learn computer
> > programs should be given a chance to take a Computer Science class.
> > Therefore, a new subject Computer Science should be introduced in
> > Bangladeshi high schools and in exams such as SSC and HSC. It is true
taw...@flash.net
=========
bstal...@aol.com wrote:
These lower tech machines are available in the US for a pittance, and if
I were a Bengali student I think I'd be happy to learn computing on
them. The problem is that by the time transportation costs, tariffs, and
taxes are paid (I won't count graft, for I haven't dealt with that)
these computers become too expensive to send out of country - not just
to BD, but to any country. It looks like the Government could make some
kind of accomodation to those wanting to give items to their schools and
ot
=========
A good idea to think about! I am sure with the vast resources (the
internet) available to us (among the netters) we might be able to figure
out a way to transport such systems to Bangladesh. I have spoken to
couple of hospital personnels in charge of getting rid of old systems
and with a few church ministers who are directly involved with
charity/fund raising in my community at Dallas, Texas - they all seem
quite excited to help me out with Bob's idea. I also spoke with a
couple of members of the North Texas Bangladesh Association - or
something like that - and boy oh boy! they must have a lot in their mind
cause their response was : "... apni eta kortey chaan to bhalo kotha -
kintu amaderkey bhoracchen keno? Bhai, amader jothesto kaaj porey achey
emnitai..." - Forget them!
Now, help me out in this :
1) Do you think sending messages to the BD news media (strictly
newspapers) might get a few people in BD to help us with the arrangement
of transportation? Like, would be too much to ask some people to
volunteer in receiving the stuff and deliver them to appropriate
schools?
2) What are the possibilities that we will get volunteers (here in the
US) to go on with this project (collecting old systems through their own
community)?
There are ofcourse many more important questions that some of you will
be able to come up with - so go ahead and come up with the questions
(along with solutions if possible).
I would like to thank Bob Stallings for his idea.
Sincerely,
Tawfiq
PS. Excuse me but this is a very incomplete/disorganized posting - lacks
structure! Sorry :(
Hassan Alam
Tanveer Choudhury (tan...@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
Tanveer, you raise a good point. Actually there are 4 levels as described
below:
Vocation: Computer Scientist
Language: Lisp
Education: Ph. D. in some esoteric branch of CS.
Achievement: Started impossible computer company that failed (eg thinking
machines).
Romantic Status: Marries fellow Ph.D.
Examples: Population of 8th and 9th floor 545 Technology Sq, Cambridge, MA
Vocation: Computer Engineer
Language: C++
Education: Bachelors or MS in Computer Engineering
Achievement: Rebuilt kitchen in expensive house in Silicon Valley with stock
options from startup.
Romantic Status: Discovered as being very "eligible" shortly after IPO
Examples: Engineer in Yahoo.
Vocation: Computer Programmer
Language: Basic
Education: learned "computer science" by programming
Achievement: Billionaire
Romantic Status: Dating or marrying employees
Examples: Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison.
Vocation: Wall street programmer
Language: Money
Education: Ivy League
Achievement: BMW Z3, Armani suits
Romantic Status: Incredible pheronome (sp) generator
Examples: If you have to ask, you cannot afford one.
: Was there a study done or you just concluded that Bangladeshi
: students do good in Computer Science? Because, computer science is *not*
: computer programming. Someone can be a very good coder but not a very good
: computer scientist.
: Does Bangladeshi students do good only in America, Euorope and
: Japan ? How about Austalia and Sudan? Do they do good in those places??
: :-) Just kidding.
: Tanveer
: ___________________________________________________________________________
: Tanveer Choudhury
: President, ACM @UMCP
: University of Maryland Collegepark "up, up and away"
: Dept. of Mathematics
: Dept. of Computer Science
: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
: >
: >
: >
: >
--
Hassan Alam
Sohel Q. Khan
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Moo wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
> [snip]
> > Do you know how to READ? Would you plese READ the whole above posts
> > and try to find that the Hypothesis of teaching Algebra in graphical
> > approach was under RESEARCH for five years and it was proven.
>
> "Proven" in a single study for a test group in the Midwestern
> United States...what Shakil Ahmed does for induction, you do for
> statistics.
>
> Jay A. Rahman.
The research was conducted in the three different schools in the USA in
three different locations, the research results were published in
appropriate math. journals. Since you are in an American school, you will
soon see the Elementary and Intermediate Algebra books and I hope you
will be able to find the difference.
The people who is calling me "naive", "irresponsible" and trying to bring
"Dr. Shakil" neither read any math. journal nor taught math. in the USA
During research, when graphical method ( for example a graphical
calculator ) was first introduced, many criticism came (mostly from very
old math professors) and their arguments were answered. Both the arguments
and counter arguments were published in various math journals.
zmh...@cs.toronto.edu
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95q.97022...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>,
Sohel Q. Khan <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
|:
|: Bangladeshi students prove themselves as the brightest students
|: in Computer Science when they go to study in America, Europe and
|: Japan. Yet , these are the only a few students of Bangladesh, a country
You didn't say North America. Hence being an alumni of CS dept
of a Canadian U, I don't count in the set of "brightest students
in CS", but still I'm zapping through my 2 cents worth. :-)
|: that represent a population of 125 Million. While a few Bangladeshi students
|: write very complex algorithms of various programming language in abroad,
Sounds interesting.
|: the majority Bangladeshi students studying in Bangladesh high schools
|: never even seen a computer program. Bangladeshi high schools, where
|: talented students are abundant who will be willing to learn computer
|: programs should be given a chance to take a Computer Science class.
|: Therefore, a new subject Computer Science should be introduced in
|: Bangladeshi high schools and in exams such as SSC and HSC. It is true
|: that Bangladeshi high schools will not be able to buy computers, however,
|: an alternative method should be developed such as fill in the blank,
|: True/False, writing programs, and learning about computers. Bangladesh
|: should not sit idle while the rest of the world are moving up in Computer
|: Science; it may not have money to buy thousands of computers,
|: however, Bangladeshis are smart, they will be able to discover alternative
|: approach of teaching COMPUTER SCIENCE in high schools without computers.
|:
I do agree with you that some basics of CS and computer programming
should be introduced in the school and college curricula.
You should send a letter to appropriate Govt. authorities.
The second letter should go to the appropriate University authorities
(such as Prof. Kaikobad) who could help in building the curricula.
About computers in schools, IMHO Govt. with donor agencies, private
businesses, NGOs, etc. can take care of that.
|: Sohel Khan
|: University of Kansas
|:
later,
Masum
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Masum Z. Hasan, PhD
Bell Laboratories (Research), Holmdel, NJ, USA
email: mas...@bell-labs.com
WWW: http://www.bell-labs.com/~masumh/
http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~zmhasan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Masum Hasan
It is a proven fact that visualization (graphical, for example) does help
in understanding various simple and complex problems in any domain of
science. Numerical Algebra (I guess that's what you're referring to)
shouldn't be no exception. The term Algebra has more wider
scope in CS and other areas these days. The emphasis is on abstraction.
(Numerical Algebra has has been generalized into Abstract Algebra,
example: Group, Ring, Field; Relational algebra on which relational
databases are based is algebra too, etc.) Not every form of problem/concept
gives easily into visualization, if at all. Not knowing what exactly
you are referring to here, I am not sure how true is the statement
"Graphical apporach of teaching Algebra is quite new"?
Care to furnish the references so we can get an idea?
If that's something cool, we'll then suggest you to write to appropriate
authorities in BD. I am sure all of us would agree with you that
school and college curricula in BD should be modernized.
later,
Masum
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Masum Z. Hasan, PhD
Bell Laboratories (Research), Holmdel, NJ, USA
email: mas...@bell-labs.com
WWW: http://www.bell-labs.com/~masumh/
http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~zmhasan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95q.97022...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>,
Sohel Q. Khan <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
|: >
|:
|:
|: Do you know how to READ? Would you plese READ the whole above posts
|: and try to find that the Hypothesis of teaching Algebra in graphical
|: approach was under RESEARCH for five years and it was proven.
|:
|: Are you trying to prove yourselve as an irresponble and naive reader
|: of the internet?
|: ( Oh I forgot the famous Bagladeshi Character:
|: "I wanna be winner in the debate...")
|:
|: Thanks
|:
|:
|:
|:
|:
|: >
|: > >
|: > > Sohel Khan
|: > >
|: > > > > graphical approaches Bangladesh should accomodate.
|: > > > >
|: > > > > Moazzem Hossain
|: > >
|: > > ##
|: > > #
|: > > ##### #
|: > > #
|: > > ##### #
|: > > #
|: > > ##
|: >
|: >
|:
|: ##
|:
|:
K.M. Maniruzzaman
In article <19970228174...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
bstal...@aol.com wrote:
>These lower tech machines are available in the US for a pittance, and if
I were a Bengali student I think I'd be happy to learn computing on them.
The problem is that by the time transportation costs, tariffs, and taxes
are paid (I won't count graft, for I haven't dealt with that) these
computers become too expensive to send out of country - not just to BD,
but to any country. It looks like the Government could make some kind of
accomodation to those wanting to give items to their schools and other
institutions. Comments?
>Bob Stallings
We had asked the BD embassy in Tokyo whether it was possible
for them to arrange free transport and customs duty waiver for
shipping donated computers for educational institutions. Their
answer was a) they have little influence over Biman, the national
airlines, so they cannot arrange free transport, b) they can issue
letters to the customs authorities recommending waiving of duties,
but the decision to do so would be taken by the customs dept.
--
Manir
ma...@okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
ma...@asami.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
URL: http://okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/okabelab/manir/manir.html
=====================================================================
"The rich get richer, the poor get children" -- G.B. Shaw
bstal...@aol.com
In article <manir-02039...@cognition.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp>, ma...@okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp (K.M. Maniruzzaman) writes:
> they can issue
>letters to the customs authorities recommending waiving of duties,
>but the decision to do so would be taken by the customs dept.
>
>
This is not very likely, is it?
Bob
saleh tanveer
> > Sohel Q. Khan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Elementary, Intermediate and College Algebra in Bangladesh are
> > > > taught with too much of "Algebraic" technique with very little
> > > > graphical approach. Bangladeshi students, therefore, cannot
> > > > comprehend the concept of functions together with it's pictorial
> > > > representation.
My comments below are with respect to the broader aspects of
secondary and higher secondary mathematics.
There are a few factors to consider:
I agree with Mr. Sohel
Khan that graphical approaches can help in the visualization
of functions. His research experience seems to suggest this.
I recall that when we started Calculus at
the intermediate level (back in '72) there was no connection made
between
the slope of a function and its derivative or the area under
a curve and integration. These are valuable concepts, when
applying mathematics (to Physics and Engineering, for instance).
I also think that Mr. Hassan Alam's suggestion in introducing some
abstract mathematics at an early level has some merit. There is
no reason why elementary set theory or perhaps some elementary
linear algebra
cannot be introduced at say the twelfth grade level. The present
Statics-Dynamics training is geared to those wanting to move into
Engineering. For those wanting to enter Computer science, for
instance, Statics-Dynamics is less relevant.
However, not every aspect of the current method of training
students in secondary or higher secondary mathematics is bad in BD.
For instance, I find a great majority of the
students here in the U.S. have
rather limited ability to manipulate algebraic expressions
correctly. I have heard similar complaints from my colleagues who
have been trained outside the U.S.
Despite problems with the BD approach, students (at least back in the
late sixtees, early seventees) generally learnt
quite a bit of manipulation (perhaps to the point of drudgery).
The trick is in finding the right combinations of various material
that will not change the good aspects of the current BD training, yet
update them in a way suitable to the needs of the times. There is
no simple answer since the needs depend on the level and careers
of the students involved. Another big
problem in this is an effective implementation of any recommended
changes. If teachers are not properly trained, the effect of any
changes may be for the worse.
Hassan Alam
Muhammad Hamid
I have some comments regarding this issue-
1. Sending junk computers to Bangladesh won't work because of its high
unreliability. Some of the spare parts may not available by now. The
maintenance might become very expensive and unaffordable. A curriculla can
not be based on junk stuff.
2. Providing theoretical knowledge of computing should be the goal for
the time being and latter on labs may be established.
3. Computers are getting very cheap in Bangladesh (the clone PCs). I think
we should look forward for new computers that can last atleast 2/3 years
without major maintenence cost.
4. We must concentrate on transferring some possible technologies to
bangladesh. (short courses may be offered when some one from US vists
bangladesh)
-Enamul Hamid
Sohel Q. Khan
I think your issues are very positive and well thought.
Sohel Khan
Rashid Farook
K.M. Maniruzzaman (ma...@okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) wrote:
: In article <19970228174...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
: bstal...@aol.com wrote:
:
:
: >These lower tech machines are available in the US for a pittance, and if
: I were a Bengali student I think I'd be happy to learn computing on them.
: The problem is that by the time transportation costs, tariffs, and taxes
: are paid (I won't count graft, for I haven't dealt with that) these
: computers become too expensive to send out of country - not just to BD,
: but to any country. It looks like the Government could make some kind of
: accomodation to those wanting to give items to their schools and other
: institutions. Comments?
: >Bob Stallings
:
: We had asked the BD embassy in Tokyo whether it was possible
: for them to arrange free transport and customs duty waiver for
: shipping donated computers for educational institutions. Their
: answer was a) they have little influence over Biman, the national
: letters to the customs authorities recommending waiving of duties,
: but the decision to do so would be taken by the customs dept.
: --
:
: ma...@okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
: ma...@asami.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
: URL: http://okabe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/okabelab/manir/manir.html
: =====================================================================
: "The rich get richer, the poor get children" -- G.B. Shaw
What I understand from all these discussions is that it seems
to be quite expensive to ship computers from foreign countries to
Bangladesh. I wonder if it is possible to setup something like a
small factory in Dhaka to assemble computer parts and thus avoiding
the high transportation cost for these machines.
I don't know if nearby Asian countries like Malaysia , Singapore
or Thailand manufacture PC cases , Hard Drives, Disk drives and/or
Monitors. does anybody have any idea about this ? Shipping motherboards
(with the chip of course) should not be that costly. Even here in the
states generic motherboards with 486DX processors are extremely cheap (And
if bought in wholesale ,should be even cheaper, maybe $20/$25 a piece).
I dont know what are the restrictions in bringing motherboards from
abroad but 50/100 of them can be easily shipped in a large box.
If some nearby Asian countries are willing to donate or sale
hardware components at a low price maybe computers can be assembled in
Dhaka.
I do wonder though how big is the computer industry in Bangladesh.
Internet access in Dhaka seems too costly. What about softwares ? I know
of Bangla Fonts and screensavers here in the U.S. What about a Bengali
wordprocessor or spreadsheet or RDBMS (This could be really useful in
banks and businesses) ? I would like to know more about software
develpoment because producing good programmers in a very small market
spending millions of takas does not seem wise to me. (I remember becoming
excited once to see something like Bangladeshi Unix programmer's
association in a local ISP website. But alas! the email link does not
work. Talking about UNIX, wouldn't it be awesome if there was a unix
server accessible by all the major universities and colleges in
Bangladesh where students could share information , telnet, access the
web (i.e. lynx), do Gopher, BBS, Email etc. ? With the technology
Bangladesh has right now, and from what I read about the Hardware
resources of the local ISPs, I believe this is quite possible and would
tremendously help Bangladeshi students, both CS and non-CS majors. )
I am willing to help as much as I can on this but don't know how.
SUGGESTIONS, COMMENTS?
--
RASHID FAROOK ||Student Consultant
Senior, CS,UGA ||UCNS, UGA
P.O.Box 2545 ||
Athens,GA30612,USA ||http://www.arches.uga.edu/~echoes
far...@pollux.cs.uga.edu||http://www.cs.uga.edu/~farook
mon...@music.cc.uga.edu||http://www.uga.edu/~uchess/private
ech...@arches.uga.edu ||http://enternet-solutions.com/users/~farook
*********************************************************************
"Run rabbit run!
Dig that hole , forget the sun
And when at last the work is done
Don't sit down , it's time to dig another one...."
Pink Floyd (Breathe)
Darkside Of The Moon
Tarik
6.29683...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> <331388...@eng.sun.com> <Pine.OSF.3.95q.97022...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
Distribution:
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: Do you know how to READ? Would you plese READ the whole above posts
: and try to find that the Hypothesis of teaching Algebra in graphical
: approach was under RESEARCH for five years and it was proven.
: Are you trying to prove yourselve as an irresponble and naive reader
: of the internet?
: ( Oh I forgot the famous Bagladeshi Character:
: "I wanna be winner in the debate...")
: Thanks
This is not the way how you should debate Mr. Khan. Argument, examples
and counter arguments make a debate. Do you really wanna be a winner when
you don't have a counter example/argument?
------------------------------------------------------------------
|\/\/\/| Make each day a magnificent adventure.
| | Accept the challenges that come your way.
| | Seize each opportunity that you find,
| (o)(o) Without concern for what others might say.
C -)
| ,___| Experience each day with open arms,
| / Savoring both victory and strife,
/____\ Welcoming the good and bad together,
/ \ For only then will you know the joy of life
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~tarik
e-mail:ta...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
Khondakar M Mostafa
In article <33279D...@mpce.mq.edu.au>,
Hasan Jamil <ja...@mpce.mq.edu.au> wrote:
>myself. Its sad but its a fact. I know for sure that North South
>University, in particular, is trying to hire qualified CS faculty for
>quite soem time without any success. I believe the picture is similar in
>all other universities. I was surprised to see (but was not unexpected)
>that CS courses are being taught by Physicists, engineers and even CIS
>and MIS people. Its like me teaching Arabic or Human Psychology being a
>CS person. I don't think its difficult for me to do so. While one may
>question the quality.
Why does one consider that an engineer cannot teach computer science
course maintaining adequate standard of quality ? What is reason
1. They mot intelligent enough ?
2. They donot have the background ?
3. Their approach to problem solving is not appropriate
4. Others.
It is hard to understand that engineers will not do a good job of teaching
CS courses particularily since engineers are the people that designed the
computer and probably use it in more demanding applications than a CS
person ever deos testing the limit of hardware and software...
the big bad wolf
wolf's lair
Hasan Jamil
Rashid Farook wrote:
I believe some Bangladeshi companys are exporting PCs assembled in
Bangladesh. All the suggestions you are making, I think, are know to
BD people. let alone Malaysia and Singapore. Singapore has been
producing PC and its components for long. Most of the PC vendors in
Bangladesh imports PC in the form of parts and then assemble it in BD.
During my visit to Bangladesh last summer, I came to understand that
there are numerous impediments in developing a quality software industry
in BD in general. The people there are mostly interested in data entry
kind of contracts from abroad.
I was really disappointed by the level of computer science education in
BD. While it is certainly better than nothing, but to compete in todays
international market as a country, it is nothing. I would even go to say
it is pathetic. While India is receiving attention of many large
software companies (recall the visit of Bill Gates of Microsoft recently
to India), we are not being able to draw tiniest attention from any one.
Some companies may be doing some export or development works, but those
are isolated events. The reason for this failure may be traced back to
our faulty national policies and the inability of the universities to
create a capable human resource base. Another less obvious problem is
that none of the people in CS are returning home from abroad, including
myself. Its sad but its a fact. I know for sure that North South
University, in particular, is trying to hire qualified CS faculty for
quite soem time without any success. I believe the picture is similar in
all other universities. I was surprised to see (but was not unexpected)
that CS courses are being taught by Physicists, engineers and even CIS
and MIS people. Its like me teaching Arabic or Human Psychology being a
CS person. I don't think its difficult for me to do so. While one may
question the quality.
- Jamil
Hasan Jamil
Muhammad Hamid wrote:
>
> I have some comments regarding this issue-
>
> 1. Sending junk computers to Bangladesh won't work because of its high
> unreliability. Some of the spare parts may not available by now. The
> maintenance might become very expensive and unaffordable. A curriculla can
> not be based on junk stuff.
>
> 2. Providing theoretical knowledge of computing should be the goal for
> the time being and latter on labs may be established.
>
> 3. Computers are getting very cheap in Bangladesh (the clone PCs). I think
> we should look forward for new computers that can last atleast 2/3 years
> without major maintenence cost.
>
> 4. We must concentrate on transferring some possible technologies to
> bangladesh. (short courses may be offered when some one from US vists
> bangladesh)
I agree with you in most cases but I have a difference in opinion.
Point 1 is fine, but I think "junk" computers are being used in
countries like Canada and States to educate school children where the
latest model of Hard/Software is not an issue. Children are happy to
paly with even a broken machine which is terribly slow. But the real
problem with "junks" are as follows:
a. Software support. No one maintains the software anymore, and none of
the latest one runs on them. So, one must take the time and lot effort
to create software for them A good solution would be the govt to help
support a small comapany who will do that. Since all the CS experts have
nothing more interesting projects to work on for the moment, and
spending their time anyway doing nothing (I mean CS related
development), they probably will be happy to get busy in such a worthy
cause. This will also sharpen the skills of a group of young developers
who probably will be at a better state to compete for large projects.
b. No program to use the junks. See, Bangladesh is very good for wasting
money. I disagree that we do not have any money. We do, infact more than
any other country in the world, I think. Otherwise, how come we buy a
sign pen in an office for 1200 taka? Who signs with it anyway. You sure
know the story behind it (the actual cost if about 10 Tk). Similarly, we
have lots of money to buy new things, like computers, but there is no
money at all to repair or maintain it. Now, it is very hard for me to
think that the Govt. or the management in BD will be willing to use
junks as a viable tool for education. Even if you send one, it will soon
start collecting dust. I remember the story of School Broadcasting
Program which distributed 1000 audio contro console sets to 1000 school,
donated by Japan. But the program was a complete failure due to this
mentality.
c. Ours nature. We Bangladeshis are very showy type. We try to do
greatest and the hardest things and care a lot to boast. I never think
of building the basics, and spending the time to reach the top. We
always want to make quick money and progress. While I don't blame when
the business people attempts that, but I do when the govt also supports
them and do it themselves. I would prefer the govt to create an
evironment by making laws and giving guidelines and supports for
enterprises to come forward and help develop the human (skilled) base.
And to develop an attitude of looking at the basics not a colorful
and attractive show piece, like a new PC that is not utilized. I was
shocked to see that PCs are used in offices only to replace a
typewriter. While I don't have any basic objections to that, but
considering the availibility of cheap labor force in BD, why we have to
replace all those low cost typewriter which are already there. You
guessed it right, perhaps. One wants to hire a new secretary (relative),
buy a new hardware, the more costly it is more is the commission, etc.
So, junks will have to wait. I think.
I think point 2 is the most important issue to focus our attention to. I
have lot to say, but I will keep it for some other time. But I do not
think your point 4 is going to help it in any way. See, it will help
only if BD had a good skill base. It does not have such people, in a
broad sense. One or two people might get benefitted, but thats not what
we are talking about, right?
Point 3 is fine, I would still think that it is beyond the reach of any
average person in BD.
Hope it helps.
- Jamil.
Rashid Farook
Khondakar M Mostafa (kmms...@pitt.edu) wrote:
: In article <33279D...@mpce.mq.edu.au>,
: Hasan Jamil <ja...@mpce.mq.edu.au> wrote:
: >myself. Its sad but its a fact. I know for sure that North South
: >University, in particular, is trying to hire qualified CS faculty for
: >quite soem time without any success. I believe the picture is similar in
: >all other universities. I was surprised to see (but was not unexpected)
: >that CS courses are being taught by Physicists, engineers and even CIS
: >and MIS people. Its like me teaching Arabic or Human Psychology being a
: >CS person. I don't think its difficult for me to do so. While one may
: >question the quality.
: Why does one consider that an engineer cannot teach computer science
: course maintaining adequate standard of quality ? What is reason
: 1. They mot intelligent enough ?
: 2. They donot have the background ?
: 3. Their approach to problem solving is not appropriate
: 4. Others.
:
: It is hard to understand that engineers will not do a good job of teaching
: CS courses particularily since engineers are the people that designed the
: computer and probably use it in more demanding applications than a CS
: person ever deos testing the limit of hardware and software...
:
:
: the big bad wolf
: wolf's lair
I think the word engineer is a very broad term and so is the word
programmer. Engineers not necessarily make computers, Electrical engineers
and Computer engineers do. Similiarly , a programmer not necessarily
developes RDBMSs, a DBA does.
I dont know how many fields of software development (i.e.
networking, database, compilers, numerical computing, OS, graphics etc.)
do Hardware guys need to master. I hope somebody more knowledgable than me
in EE and CE can shade some light in this question.
But I have noticed that there is little similiarity between
Hardware oriented subjects and software related subjects. For example,
Assembly codes are hardware oriented and I am pretty sure that people
working with chips need to have good background in that. But the
difference between MASM and JAVA is pretty obvious. My point is, although
these subjects (Computer Hardware, Software, Management Information
Systems) are related, CS people spend a lot more time in building and
developing softwares than any other majors do, because thats what they
specialize in. Yes an MIS major may learn C++ all by himself; but how
well can that match to a CS major's experience with C++ who is doing
all of his coursework in that language?
I know of MIS grads from our university whose curriculum
involveed working with very high level languages and user friendly
programs like Visual Basic and MS Access. They are obviously no match for
even a CS junior just learning project Designs and Assembly codes. One
such MIS student got a 35K job with a company and he had added C++ as a
extra qualification to his computer knowledge. (He told me
himself that he had to add that to his resume to qualify for
the job) Unfortunately, I found this person lacked even entry level
knowledge about Object Oriented programming.
My point is, people from different field can and do get jobs
that requires CS related knowledge all the time (DBAs are a very good
example, so are WebMasters and "programmers(!?)"). But when it comes to
teaching, it does not seem to be a good idea to prefer a non CS graduate
over a CS grad to teach Computer Science. I do acknowledge there are
exceptions, where people from other field happened to show more skill
in CS than average CS majors but statistically they are very few.
--
RASHID FAROOK ||Student Consultant
Senior, CS,UGA ||UCNS, UGA
P.O.Box 2545 ||
Athens,GA30612,USA ||http://www.arches.uga.edu/~echoes
far...@pollux.cs.uga.edu||http://www.cs.uga.edu/~farook
rfa...@csnovell.uga.edu||http://www.uga.edu/~uchess/private
Zahid Hussain
Hasan Jamil wrote:
>
> Rashid Farook wrote:
>
[snipped]
> > I do wonder though how big is the computer industry in Bangladesh.
> > Internet access in Dhaka seems too costly. What about softwares ? I know
> > of Bangla Fonts and screensavers here in the U.S. What about a Bengali
> > wordprocessor or spreadsheet or RDBMS (This could be really useful in
> > banks and businesses) ?
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Is there something
specific
about Bangla that prevents it being mapped to the standard EDBIC or
ASCII
character sets? So what we are talking about is a standardisation
regarding
mapping Bangla to ASCII and keyboard mapping. This should be the job of
a
standarisation body or a goverenment agency in Bangladesh. Once we have
this,
then different vendors can develop Bangla fonts in Adobe, TrueType or
any
other format required.
> > I would like to know more about software
> > develpoment because producing good programmers in a very small market
> > spending millions of takas does not seem wise to me. (I remember becoming
> > excited once to see something like Bangladeshi Unix programmer's
> > association in a local ISP website. But alas! the email link does not
> > work.
There is little reason to develop programs which is limited to the
Bangladesh
market. Although there may be programs which would only be of interest
to
Bangladeshis most programs will be more generic. A program consists of
basically
two parts: algorithms and UI (user interface). For example, if you were
developing a browser, the algorithms does not change for the Chinese,
Europian or
Bangladesh market. However the UI will have to be customised for each
specific
market to cater for different fonts, graphics and keyboard layout. You
will
have to decide whether UI customisation effort and cost will be
reuperated
by sales.
> > Talking about UNIX, wouldn't it be awesome if there was a unix
> > server accessible by all the major universities and colleges in
> > Bangladesh where students could share information , telnet, access the
> > web (i.e. lynx), do Gopher, BBS, Email etc. ? With the technology
> > Bangladesh has right now, and from what I read about the Hardware
> > resources of the local ISPs, I believe this is quite possible and would
> > tremendously help Bangladeshi students, both CS and non-CS majors. )
> >
I think what you are trying to say is that, would it not awesome if
there
existed a WAN or backbone in Bangladesh connecting up the universities
and
major institutes. Certainly, smtp, ftpd, httpd and telnetd can be run on
high
end 486 or low end Pentiums (P90) running Linux. However, a highspeed
dedicated backbone link is not cheap but the commercial benefits are
enormous.
> > I am willing to help as much as I can on this but don't know how.
> >
> > SUGGESTIONS, COMMENTS?
>
[snipped]
>
> During my visit to Bangladesh last summer, I came to understand that
> there are numerous impediments in developing a quality software industry
> in BD in general. The people there are mostly interested in data entry
> kind of contracts from abroad.
This is not so bad. It atleast earns foreign exchange. Not everything
has
to be rocket science.
>
> I was really disappointed by the level of computer science education in
> BD. While it is certainly better than nothing, but to compete in todays
> international market as a country, it is nothing. I would even go to say
> it is pathetic.
I have not attended school in BD so I wont comment.
> While India is receiving attention of many large
> software companies (recall the visit of Bill Gates of Microsoft recently
> to India), we are not being able to draw tiniest attention from any one.
Indian government has made tremendous effort over a number of years to
attract inward investment and joint ventures in this area. I would
certainly
agree with you that BD government also needs to set up one or two strong
engineering/technology departments and encourage the development of
science parks around them.
> Some companies may be doing some export or development works, but those
> are isolated events. The reason for this failure may be traced back to
> our faulty national policies and the inability of the universities to
> create a capable human resource base. Another less obvious problem is
> that none of the people in CS are returning home from abroad, including
> myself. Its sad but its a fact.
I agree with the above paragraph and see my reply in the paragraph
above.
> I know for sure that North South
> University, in particular, is trying to hire qualified CS faculty for
> quite soem time without any success. I believe the picture is similar in
> all other universities. I was surprised to see (but was not unexpected)
> that CS courses are being taught by Physicists, engineers and even CIS
> and MIS people. Its like me teaching Arabic or Human Psychology being a
> CS person. I don't think its difficult for me to do so. While one may
> question the quality.
I really have to disagree with you here :) Back in the early 80's in the
UK, the number of good CS/CE departments could be counted on the fingers
of one hand. But there was tremendous amount of computer development
going on and these were happening in the Physics and EE departments at
Oxbridge, London and Manchester. I myself did my PhD in Parallel
Computing
and Image Processing from a Physics Dept. We were working on SIMD
processors,
architecture, compilers and algorithms. Recently, I was at Brunel
University as a consultant and Research Fellow. I worked in a group
where
we were developing SIMD array processors, novel computer architectures,
3D computer graphics algorithms; this work was not being done in CS dept
but
in EE. There is no magic to CS being taught within CS dept, the
importance
is in choosing the appropriate carriculum.
>
> - Jamil
Best regards,
Zahid
--
Zahid Hussain, BSC (Hons), Phd (Lond) Email: Zahid....@tiuk.ti.com
VLSI (DSP) Designer IMS: ZHUS
MOS Design, Texas Instruments Ltd vox: +44 (0)1604 66 3405
Northampton, UK NN4 7YL Speed Dial: +8 447 3405
Zahid Hussain
Rashid Farook wrote:
>
[snipped]
> I dont know how many fields of software development (i.e.
> networking, database, compilers, numerical computing, OS, graphics etc.)
> do Hardware guys need to master. I hope somebody more knowledgable than me
> in EE and CE can shade some light in this question.
This really depends on lots of things. If I am working on ASIC or FPGA,
I
would need to understand the application. I am essentially hardware
programming the algorithms. I need no/little knowledge of compilers or
OS.
Now RISC/CISC CPUs and DSPs are becoming so complex that you need a team
comprising of algorithm experts, systems engineers (interface, memory,
OS,
compiler), CPU architects, logic designers, and circuit designers. Each
are expert in ones one area but the task of good engineers is to
understand
issues and leaverage expert knowledge out of others.
> But I have noticed that there is little similiarity between
> Hardware oriented subjects and software related subjects. For example,
> Assembly codes are hardware oriented and I am pretty sure that people
> working with chips need to have good background in that. But the
> difference between MASM and JAVA is pretty obvious. My point is, although
> these subjects (Computer Hardware, Software, Management Information
> Systems) are related, CS people spend a lot more time in building and
> developing softwares than any other majors do, because thats what they
> specialize in. Yes an MIS major may learn C++ all by himself; but how
> well can that match to a CS major's experience with C++ who is doing
> all of his coursework in that language?
But the primary issue is that where resources are limited, you have to
build a curriculum which satisfies a core requirement. Which is more
important: teaching a student a programming language such as C/C++/Java
or
data structure, logic and fundamental algorithms? I would suggest that
a core curriculum should consist of teaching computer architecture and
organisation, data structure, logic, algorithms and software design
(OOD).
Teaching programming languages, applications (ie graphics) and UI are
IMO
not requirements.
A good EE/Physics graduate can teach these subjects.
> One
> such MIS student got a 35K job with a company and he had added C++ as a
> extra qualification to his computer knowledge. (He told me
> himself that he had to add that to his resume to qualify for
> the job) Unfortunately, I found this person lacked even entry level
> knowledge about Object Oriented programming.
All that this proves is that if C++ was the prime prerequisite for the
job
then the selection procedure for this company was faulty. However, if
the student has a good grasp of data structues, algorithms and design
methodolgy, then the required language can be taught/learnt on the job.
> My point is, people from different field can and do get jobs
> that requires CS related knowledge all the time (DBAs are a very good
> example, so are WebMasters and "programmers(!?)"). But when it comes to
> teaching, it does not seem to be a good idea to prefer a non CS graduate
> over a CS grad to teach Computer Science. I do acknowledge there are
> exceptions, where people from other field happened to show more skill
> in CS than average CS majors but statistically they are very few.
Regards,
Zahid
>
> --
> RASHID FAROOK ||Student Consultant
> Senior, CS,UGA ||UCNS, UGA
> P.O.Box 2545 ||
> Athens,GA30612,USA ||http://www.arches.uga.edu/~echoes
> far...@pollux.cs.uga.edu||http://www.cs.uga.edu/~farook
> rfa...@csnovell.uga.edu||http://www.uga.edu/~uchess/private
> ech...@arches.uga.edu ||http://enternet-solutions.com/users/~farook
> *********************************************************************
[overly long sig snipped]
Zahid Hussain
Hasan Jamil wrote:
>
[snipped]
>
> Point 1 is fine, but I think "junk" computers are being used in
> countries like Canada and States to educate school children where the
> latest model of Hard/Software is not an issue. Children are happy to
> paly with even a broken machine which is terribly slow. But the real
> problem with "junks" are as follows:
>
Any one care to define what is a "junk"? Is a 386DX a junk? Is a 486 a
junk? Is a 68030/40 a junk? I dont want this discussion becoming one of
CPU/OS advocacy but its intersting that a CPU/OS which was perfectly
usuable only 2 years ago now has become obsolete and a "junk".
> a. Software support. No one maintains the software anymore, and none of
> the latest one runs on them. So, one must take the time and lot effort
> to create software for them A good solution would be the govt to help
> support a small comapany who will do that. Since all the CS experts have
> nothing more interesting projects to work on for the moment, and
> spending their time anyway doing nothing (I mean CS related
> development), they probably will be happy to get busy in such a worthy
> cause. This will also sharpen the skills of a group of young developers
> who probably will be at a better state to compete for large projects.
Why do you have to run Win95 and MSOffice 97? What is wrong with running
Win 3.1 / DOS. There are plenty of DOS software. What kind of software
are
you looking for? If you run Linux/BSD, then you will find your hardware
is actually rather fast and there are plenty of free software. IMO
software
is not the main issue, more important is whether replacement parts will
be
available such as disk drives or proprietry interfaces.
[snipped]
>
I would suggest that we learn to use our "junk" computers more
imaginitively.
We dont have to run the latest/greatest software. Win 3.1/Word 2/Excel
2/
Quattro Pro was adequate two/three years ago and it still is for office
use.
There are plenty of DOS software which are suitable for teaching to
junior/high school students.
Those who wants to really learn about computing/programming, install
Linux/BSD on your 386/486 machine and get cracking with GNU software.
The
source is available to you to develop further and learn from them.
>
> - Jamil.
Regards,
Zahid
A person who still finds his 386SX/16 is adequate for his home/internet
use.
Muhammad Hamid
On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Zahid Hussain wrote:
> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:39:46 +0000
> From: Zahid Hussain <Zahid....@tiuk.ti.com>
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
> Subject: Re: COMPUTER SCIENCE IN BANGLADESH
>
> Hasan Jamil wrote:
> >
> [snipped]
> >
> > Point 1 is fine, but I think "junk" computers are being used in
> > countries like Canada and States to educate school children where the
> > latest model of Hard/Software is not an issue. Children are happy to
> > paly with even a broken machine which is terribly slow. But the real
> > problem with "junks" are as follows:
> >
>
> Any one care to define what is a "junk"? Is a 386DX a junk? Is a 486 a
> junk? Is a 68030/40 a junk? I dont want this discussion becoming one of
> CPU/OS advocacy but its intersting that a CPU/OS which was perfectly
> usuable only 2 years ago now has become obsolete and a "junk".
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
What I meant by 'junk' computers is that these are not easy to maintain.
Spare parts are not available for older machines. A computer that is
running for say 5-8 years here, and if it is still running, I'm not sure
how long that will last in Bangladesh (where dust, humidity, voltage
fluctutaions etc are a great problem). Well, if there are plenty of
similar extra computers on hand to back-up the system, then the term
'junk' may be omitted.
In summary, what can be done is that. Compatible PCs may be collected
where the cards may be interchanged to support in case of failures. Each
PC backed up by another PC to provide maintenance support.
Pavel
Hey,
I was reading the interesting discussion among Hasan Jamil and
Zahid Hussain. I may not be the appropiate person, but i have a
different perspective. Having good CS-students and teachers is
really related to the development of computer industry. Like
we were taught data structure, switching theory, assembly languages, OS,
AI, Software engineering, DBMS in BUET; But after graduating from
buet we had to learn foxpro, because it was hot in industry. Most
US schools used to teach ada, lisp, smalltalk, pascal etc as
programming languages. But now they are teaching JAVA because it
is hot in industry.
A programmer without a background in algorithm/data-structure will
suffer in his professional life, but a computer scientist without
his expertise in currect (and recent) software tools will find it tough
to get a job.
Computer science has become an application oriented science.
Here industry and schools should work together. I donot know
about the situation of computer industry in bangladesh. It is
probably nowhere near the software industry of india. Do we have
a good market of softwares? Are there other big companies and
organization who are willing to pay for software/computerization?
It is not easy to catch foreign software market. The languages,
softwares and systems are changing constantly. If we cannot support the
best technology we cannot compete with others.
It was astonishing that most of the companies in bangladesh
developed fonts of banga wordprocessors. This is because they could
easily sell those softwares/fonts. I think there should be a prospect
of database softwares. Probably there is another prospect-Internet
orineted softwares. Things will be changed i hope:)
regards
-Niaz
Hasan Jamil
Zahid Hussain wrote:
> > During my visit to Bangladesh last summer, I came to understand that
> > there are numerous impediments in developing a quality software industry
> > in BD in general. The people there are mostly interested in data entry
> > kind of contracts from abroad.
>
> This is not so bad. It atleast earns foreign exchange. Not everything
> has
> to be rocket science.
Thats true. I was not saying that we should not do that. I was
commenting on the idea of developing a software industry. And I don't
consider data entry as software industry product, or should be regarded
as software job. It just is a manual job. The intention was that if
the goal of a company is to get data entry contracts, they can not
really be ready for a software venture for many reasons. The lack of
human resource, for example.
> Indian government has made tremendous effort over a number of years to
> attract inward investment and joint ventures in this area. I would
> certainly
> agree with you that BD government also needs to set up one or two strong
> engineering/technology departments and encourage the development of
> science parks around them.
I am suggesting in the same line.
> I really have to disagree with you here :) Back in the early 80's in the
> UK, the number of good CS/CE departments could be counted on the fingers
> of one hand. But there was tremendous amount of computer development
> going on and these were happening in the Physics and EE departments at
> Oxbridge, London and Manchester. I myself did my PhD in Parallel
> Computing
> and Image Processing from a Physics Dept. We were working on SIMD
> processors,
> architecture, compilers and algorithms. Recently, I was at Brunel
> University as a consultant and Research Fellow. I worked in a group
> where
> we were developing SIMD array processors, novel computer architectures,
> 3D computer graphics algorithms; this work was not being done in CS dept
> but
> in EE. There is no magic to CS being taught within CS dept, the
> importance
> is in choosing the appropriate carriculum.
Please don't get me wrong, if I have to take your argument, I must say
that in 1880, there was no electrical engineering department at all. We
had only philosophy and physics. And we taught all the good stuff we
have under physics. Just an example. Would you agree to do everything
under physics now, or more specifically, would you hire on an equal
basis physicist or philosopher to teach EE? I doubt it very much.
My point was the following. It is true that the history of CS is not
very long. About 20 years at best. In fact most American Universities
did not have a CS department untill 1982. Princeton opened up their CS
department only recently (I don't remember the year). But one must
recognize the fact that CS is a discipline by itself and there is much
more than EE (as some people claim) or Physics. Operating systems taught
in EE and CS are almost have different prespectives and viewpoints.
'Cause EE will target hardware development while CS will emphasize on
software need and support, given the hardware. Developing a motherboard
is not CS or people who develop them is not knowledgeable in CS (with
all due respect). Then a physicist will be an engineer too.
CS is CS, I think the time has come to accept this fact. And also, if
that is true, why make a fuss about hiring an operating systems guy?
One can hire an AI guy or something else. If an EE guy can teach CS,
then is not natural to think that it really does not matter when one
hires faculty, any CS is good because they can teach or do anything in
CS? If an EE guy can do it, a CS guy will supposedly do better. Isn't
it.
Finally, about the magic. I think there is. It shows in the market share
of the softwares and their creators. I think (I don't know the figures)
UK shares are much much less than US where CS is mostly done in CS.
Probably thats the magic :-) Wouldn't you agree?
Hasan Jamil
Zahid Hussain wrote:
> Any one care to define what is a "junk"? Is a 386DX a junk? Is a 486 a
> junk? Is a 68030/40 a junk? I dont want this discussion becoming one of
> CPU/OS advocacy but its intersting that a CPU/OS which was perfectly
> usuable only 2 years ago now has become obsolete and a "junk".
My mistake, perhaps. I was merely following the previous posters
terminologies. I did not base my arguments on any specific hardware or
software. I believe there are more capable persons in this newsgroup who
can take up this issues from a technical point of view.
What I was saying that, it does not matter what the hardware is or what
software it can support. What is required is that some one take the time
to develop application software based what is available on the so called
junk machines. I would assume 8088, 286 etc. as junks (in the west).
>
> Why do you have to run Win95 and MSOffice 97?
As I said, I did not suggest any hardware or software, let alone win95
or the like.
> What is wrong with running
> Win 3.1 / DOS.
I don't even mind running CP/M of the eighties. But thats not the issue.
The issue I think was can we just make use of these so called obsolete
machines. I think we can, but it needs proper planning and govt support.
When it comes to business and making money, is anything less than
pentium and win95 is really a junk. Ask any vendor, in home and in
abroad, they will vouch for me. It matters then.
> There are plenty of DOS software. What kind of software
> are
> you looking for? If you run Linux/BSD, then you will find your hardware
> is actually rather fast and there are plenty of free software. IMO
> software
> is not the main issue, more important is whether replacement parts will
> be
> available such as disk drives or proprietry interfaces.
See, when people use or buy a computer except for professionals, they
have some applications in mind. They usually fix their software first
and then buy the hardware today. No one in their right state of mind
will buy a 286 today to run wordstar. Its simple because no matter what
he does, he will be competing for something somewhere, and he would not
like to fall behind only for a lousy 400 dollar bill.
Your Linux/BSD suggestion is fine for me, but not for ordinary users, I
think.
> I would suggest that we learn to use our "junk" computers more
> imaginitively.
Only if it pays of in terms of labour and money.
> We dont have to run the latest/greatest software. Win 3.1/Word 2/Excel
> 2/
> Quattro Pro was adequate two/three years ago and it still is for office
> use.
I did not suggest that anywhere in my message. Probably you
misunderstood the message.
>
> There are plenty of DOS software which are suitable for teaching to
> junior/high school students.
I agree. But not all of them are maintained. and some do not have any
documentations. Only now, we have online docs. It was like this before.
Also to accommodate upgrade in knowledge and changes in circumstances,
the institutions using old machines really face problems. One major
problems is finding a person who can fix or upgrade an application in
286 or dbase III. They usually charge much higher knowing the scarcity.
Hence defeats the whole purpose of using low cost machines. Thats why
i suggested that govt should make it possible throught innovative
venture and industry support programs.
>
> Those who wants to really learn about computing/programming, install
> Linux/BSD on your 386/486 machine and get cracking with GNU software.
> The
> source is available to you to develop further and learn from them.
Good suggestions, hope someone takes it :-)
Best,
- Jamil.
Hasan Jamil
Rashid Farook wrote:
> My point is, people from different field can and do get jobs
> that requires CS related knowledge all the time (DBAs are a very good
> example, so are WebMasters and "programmers(!?)"). But when it comes to
> teaching, it does not seem to be a good idea to prefer a non CS graduate
> over a CS grad to teach Computer Science. I do acknowledge there are
> exceptions, where people from other field happened to show more skill
> in CS than average CS majors but statistically they are very few.
I agree with you, in principle.
Best,
- Jamil.
Zahid Hussain
Hasan Jamil wrote:
>
[snipped]
>
> Please don't get me wrong, if I have to take your argument, I must say
> that in 1880, there was no electrical engineering department at all. We
> had only philosophy and physics. And we taught all the good stuff we
> have under physics. Just an example. Would you agree to do everything
> under physics now, or more specifically, would you hire on an equal
> basis physicist or philosopher to teach EE? I doubt it very much.
>
> My point was the following. It is true that the history of CS is not
> very long. About 20 years at best. In fact most American Universities
> did not have a CS department untill 1982. Princeton opened up their CS
> department only recently (I don't remember the year). But one must
> recognize the fact that CS is a discipline by itself and there is much
> more than EE (as some people claim) or Physics. Operating systems taught
> in EE and CS are almost have different prespectives and viewpoints.
> 'Cause EE will target hardware development while CS will emphasize on
> software need and support, given the hardware. Developing a motherboard
> is not CS or people who develop them is not knowledgeable in CS (with
> all due respect). Then a physicist will be an engineer too.
My point is that is you have to make best use of resources available to
you.
Guess in which department most of the senior Professors graduated from,
I
dont think it was CS (most of them would have graduated at about the
same
time I did). I am feeling particularly dim this morning but you have to
explain to me what a CS person can do that a good Physicist/EE with
experience (not formally taught CS/CE) cannot do? I think I would like
to
see the carriculum you would like to see taught.
When the number of graduating engineers (EE/CE) and good Physicists are
so few in BD, I would like to see a basic core curriculum taught to all
graduates. We are at the stage US and Europe was back in the early 80's
and we have to start from this position. IMO a core curriculum should
consist of teaching computer architecture and organisation, data
structure,
logic, algorithms and software design (OOD) to all CE/EE. When more
graduates are being produced and there are jobs being created for
specialist skills only then the Universities consider specialist
departments.
>
> CS is CS, I think the time has come to accept this fact. And also, if
> that is true, why make a fuss about hiring an operating systems guy?
> One can hire an AI guy or something else. If an EE guy can teach CS,
> then is not natural to think that it really does not matter when one
> hires faculty, any CS is good because they can teach or do anything in
> CS? If an EE guy can do it, a CS guy will supposedly do better. Isn't
> it.
So you would hire a fresh graduate who has attended a few classes on OS
and compiler theory over an EE graduate who has actually hands on
experience
of developing OS and compilers? If both were fresh graduates then, yes,
I
would choose the person with the most exposure, but even then the
decision
would not be so clear cut. I would always choose the best graduate and
whether they are good at maths.
>
> Finally, about the magic. I think there is. It shows in the market share
> of the softwares and their creators. I think (I don't know the figures)
> UK shares are much much less than US where CS is mostly done in CS.
> Probably thats the magic :-) Wouldn't you agree?
There are many reasons for this and I think you need to look at computer
history a little more closely and the size of IBM and AT&T. Are we
discussing industry size or innovation? There are also very large
difference in attitude amongst academics in UK and US. In UK, you cannot
(unless the law has changed very recently) patent an algorithm, you
could
in US. We have always regarded software as a agorithm/mathematical
persuit.
There are no giant software houses in UK, but there are many small
innovative ones working at the very leading edge of the industry.
Because of these differences and academic climate in UK, the emphasis
has always been on architecture, hardware and applications.
Regards,
Zahid Hussain
Pavel wrote:
>
[snipped]
> we were taught data structure, switching theory, assembly languages, OS,
> AI, Software engineering, DBMS in BUET; But after graduating from
> buet we had to learn foxpro, because it was hot in industry. Most
> US schools used to teach ada, lisp, smalltalk, pascal etc as
> programming languages. But now they are teaching JAVA because it
> is hot in industry.
I would agree with you that BUET or any other colleges should be
teaching you the curriculumn that they are. However, I am not sure
that teaching programing languages should be part of the core.
Where does this end? Today, Java is the rage. Two years ago it
was C++, before that C. There are demands in certain sectors for
Cobol and FORTRAN programmers. Some employers wants you to know
Word/Excel.
Surely, how you code is one of the last considerations. I would
contest that the responsibility of a college is to teach you the
fundamentals, it is not its job to train you in tools. That surely
is the responsibility of the programmer and his/her employer.
If the BD government want to see a flurishing computer industry then
she may choose to act to facilitate training through government
agencies or regulating training schools but I would regard their
roles quite distinct from the roles that BUET and the other
universities should be playing.
>
> A programmer without a background in algorithm/data-structure will
> suffer in his professional life, but a computer scientist without
> his expertise in currect (and recent) software tools will find it tough
> to get a job.
>
[snipped]
> regards
> -Niaz
Zahid Hussain
Muhammad Hamid wrote:
>
[snipped]
> What I meant by 'junk' computers is that these are not easy to maintain.
> Spare parts are not available for older machines. A computer that is
> running for say 5-8 years here, and if it is still running, I'm not sure
> how long that will last in Bangladesh (where dust, humidity, voltage
> fluctutaions etc are a great problem). Well, if there are plenty of
> similar extra computers on hand to back-up the system, then the term
> 'junk' may be omitted.
> In summary, what can be done is that. Compatible PCs may be collected
> where the cards may be interchanged to support in case of failures. Each
> PC backed up by another PC to provide maintenance support.
>
I would agree with you that cartain machines are difficult to maintain
because of the proprietry parts within them such as the BUS or the
disk I/O controllers. You should avoid these machines. But these
machines
generally tend to be quite old, typically more that 6/7 year old.
Now, the influence of commodity hardware is much greater specially
since there are so many clone makers. With older machines, you are
typically better off with clones rather than IBM or Compaq.
Masum Hasan
In article <5ga1hh$r...@hobbes.cc.uga.edu>,
|: Khondakar M Mostafa (kmms...@pitt.edu) wrote:
|: : In article <33279D...@mpce.mq.edu.au>,
|: : Hasan Jamil <ja...@mpce.mq.edu.au> wrote:
|: : >University, in particular, is trying to hire qualified CS faculty for
|: : >quite soem time without any success. I believe the picture is similar in
|: : >all other universities. I was surprised to see (but was not unexpected)
|: : >that CS courses are being taught by Physicists, engineers and even CIS
|: : >and MIS people. Its like me teaching Arabic or Human Psychology being a
|: : >CS person. I don't think its difficult for me to do so. While one may
|: : >question the quality.
|: : course maintaining adequate standard of quality ? What is reason
|: : 1. They mot intelligent enough ?
|: : 2. They donot have the background ?
|: : 3. Their approach to problem solving is not appropriate
|: : 4. Others.
|: :
|: : It is hard to understand that engineers will not do a good job of teaching
|: : CS courses particularily since engineers are the people that designed the
|: : computer and probably use it in more demanding applications than a CS
|: : person ever deos testing the limit of hardware and software...
|: :
What a logic!
My dear Wolfy (the Engineer of the type with the wonderful logic
and knowledge about CS as above!) I have a proposition for you.
The Little Red Riding Hood (the CS student type) is on her way to
Granny's (the CS type). Care to replace the poor Granny?
Morale: replace ALL CS types with Engineers (and get fat)!
Sorry, for not being so technical this time on this thread.
:-) :-)
|: : the big bad wolf
|: : wolf's lair
|:
later,
Masum, mutated from an Engineer to a CS type
Sohel Q. Khan
On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
> Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
> : On 18 Mar 1997, Masum Hasan wrote:
>
> : > from the soil of Bangladesh. Yes, it is unfortunate that these brilliant
> : > students are not returning as Dr. Kaikobad did even though he had
> : > opportunities outside. May be we should debate on "why we are not returning?"
> : >
>
> Imagine what India could do with 800 million people :).
If India or China do not do anything, we don't have to follow them
sitting idle. Infact, India encourages its nationals to go abroad.
The demand of "technologist" will be forever. Bangladesh and
India already flooding world's "cheap labor" market in Malayasia and
Middle east. India is flooding the USA, Canada and Australia with
"Technologists". Three out of four engineers in Silicon Valley are
Indians.
>
> : I disagree with you here completely. There are 125 Million people
> : in Bangladesh. All we need to do is to give Bangladeshi high
> : school/intermeidate college students a chance to learn
> : programing/coding/CS. Then, Bangladesh will be able to flood the
> : America, Europe, Australia, and East-Asia with Bangladeshi brilliant
> : programmers. If we can educate 125 Million, there will be a lot
> : brilliant students left behind automatically in Bangladesh.
>
> : Sohel Khan
>
> --
> Hassan Alam
Sohel Q. Khan
On 18 Mar 1997, Masum Hasan wrote:
>
I agree with you, there has to be a start.
>
> I haven't attended school in BD either. I wouldn't have had a chance either,
> because during my time CS dept was non-existent. But I do not agree with
> Rashid Farook that CS education in BD is pathetic. The curricula at the BUET
> CSE dept is up to the standard. Dr. Kaikobad is bringing up excellent CS
> graduates. I am sure most of them are excelling in North America and
> other corners of the earth. Dr. Kaikobad is a damn good CS Prof.
> He with his brilliant students is publishing in reputed CS journals
> from the soil of Bangladesh. Yes, it is unfortunate that these brilliant
> students are not returning as Dr. Kaikobad did even though he had
> opportunities outside. May be we should debate on "why we are not returning?"
>
The original posting that I posted three months ago, I mentioned
that Bangladeshi students when given chances excel in Computer
Science. Comparative to the total population of Bangladesh, the BUET
and NSU community are very small. Therefore, if BUET and NSU have
excellent CS program, we cannot conclude that whole Bangladesh
has exlcellent CS program.
My original post was to do with the improvement of our high school
(grade 8-12) education program by introducing some knowledge of
Computer Science. I also mentioned that it may not be possible to
buy computers for all the schools, however, we can have appropriate
text with pictures ect. to give some introductory knowledge.
My experience with some excellent programmer/coder that their
theoretical knowledge in Physics, Math are not that good. However,
they write excellent program with their hard work. There may
be thousands of potential programmers in Bangladeshi high schools
who do not get admission to BUET/NSU, however, deserve to get a
chance to learn about computers.
Bangladesh, cannot sit idle while other countres are moving ahead.
We must start a subject such "Computer Science" ( at least as
optional) in the highschool which will give knowledge about
computers.
Nothing will be perfect at the beginning, there will be a lot
of criticism in "something new", however, we must start somewhere.
Then slowly we can modify the subject to genuinely perfect.
Sohel Khan
ITTC
University of Kansas
Sohel Q. Khan
On 18 Mar 1997, Khondakar M Mostafa wrote:
> In article <1997Mar17.1...@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>,
> Masum Hasan <zmh...@cs.toronto.edu> wrote:
> >
> > What a logic!
> > My dear Wolfy (the Engineer of the type with the wonderful logic
> > and knowledge about CS as above!) I have a proposition for you.
> > The Little Red Riding Hood (the CS student type) is on her way to
> > Granny's (the CS type). Care to replace the poor Granny?
> > Morale: replace ALL CS types with Engineers (and get fat)!
> > Sorry, for not being so technical this time on this thread.
> >later,
> >Masum, mutated from an Engineer to a CS type
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I donot remember saying anywhere that I was a engineer. It wasa a general
> question targeted toward the orginal poster. My knowledge of computers are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sorry that I did not mention about myself when I first started this
thread. My undergrad is both in EE and CE. In the graduate school,
I am woring on Computer and Communication Networking. In my research,
"Modeling and Simulation of Gigabit Networking" and "Devloping PCS
System by Satellite", the knowledge of EE, CE and CS blended together.
The school of EE, CE and CS are dependent on each other. As the
technology is advancing a good "technologist"( note, I did not mention
"Engineer") will need the knowledge of these fields (CE, EE, CE)
together with the knowledge of Math. and Physics. Therefore, the
debate on CS Vs. EE etc is not that necessary.
The main goal of my original post was to do something for the people
of Bangladesh, particularly for the high school (up to 12 th grade)
students. Our education system in our country need to be improved,
the knowledge of modern technology (whether CS, CE or EE) need to
be introduced. We cannont incorporate all schools of knowledge at
once, we have to start from somewhere and later modify it according
to the need.
Sohel Khan
Info. and Telecomm. Tech. Center (ITTC)
> very limited as is CS. I was not trying to put any wonderful logic in that
> post. If all CS is going to replace engineers than great ! you willl be
> employed. But what does it matter. An engineer mutated to CS is probably
> as funny as the ninja turtles. By the way does the mutation occur in both
> directions , can a CS become a engineer. BTW where does the math and the
> physicist fit in the puzzle
>
> the big bad wolf
> wolf's lair
>
>
>
##
Hassan Alam
: > from the soil of Bangladesh. Yes, it is unfortunate that these brilliant
: > students are not returning as Dr. Kaikobad did even though he had
: > opportunities outside. May be we should debate on "why we are not returning?"
: >
Imagine what India could do with 800 million people :).
: I disagree with you here completely. There are 125 Million people
Khondakar M Mostafa
In article <1997Mar17.1...@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>,
Masum Hasan <zmh...@cs.toronto.edu> wrote:
>
> What a logic!
> My dear Wolfy (the Engineer of the type with the wonderful logic
> and knowledge about CS as above!) I have a proposition for you.
> The Little Red Riding Hood (the CS student type) is on her way to
> Granny's (the CS type). Care to replace the poor Granny?
> Morale: replace ALL CS types with Engineers (and get fat)!
> Sorry, for not being so technical this time on this thread.
>later,
>Masum, mutated from an Engineer to a CS type
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
I donot remember saying anywhere that I was a engineer. It wasa a general
question targeted toward the orginal poster. My knowledge of computers are
Dr Zahid Hussain
"Sohel Q. Khan" <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
[snipped]
>
> I disagree with you here completely. There are 125 Million people
> in Bangladesh. All we need to do is to give Bangladeshi high
> school/intermeidate college students a chance to learn
> programing/coding/CS. Then, Bangladesh will be able to flood the
> America, Europe, Australia, and East-Asia with Bangladeshi brilliant
> programmers. If we can educate 125 Million, there will be a lot
> brilliant students left behind automatically in Bangladesh.
>
> Sohel Khan
>
I certainly like your optimism :-) There are 200M+ in US, 200M+ in
Russia, 300M+ in Europe, there are 800M+ in India, 1B+ in China, whats
preventing them also producing enough CS graduates.
Regards,
Zahid
Dr Zahid Hussain, BSc, PhD (Lond) E-Mail: za...@rajshahi.demon.co.uk
z.hu...@ieee.org
URL: http://www.rajshahi.demon.co.uk/
// if (absolute power) -> absolute corruption;
Sohel Q. Khan
On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Dr Zahid Hussain wrote:
> "Sohel Q. Khan" <sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
>
> [snipped]
> >
> > I disagree with you here completely. There are 125 Million people
> > in Bangladesh. All we need to do is to give Bangladeshi high
> > school/intermeidate college students a chance to learn
> > programing/coding/CS. Then, Bangladesh will be able to flood the
> > America, Europe, Australia, and East-Asia with Bangladeshi brilliant
> > programmers. If we can educate 125 Million, there will be a lot
> > brilliant students left behind automatically in Bangladesh.
> >
> > Sohel Khan
> >
>
> I certainly like your optimism :-) There are 200M+ in US, 200M+ in
> Russia, 300M+ in Europe, there are 800M+ in India, 1B+ in China, whats
> preventing them also producing enough CS graduates.
For the last three months, I learned from this thread that
Bangladeshis are excellent in programming. If they are, certainly
they will do better than people of other countries. The other countries
too
should strive hard to produce enough CS graduate. Indeed, lot of
engineer/scientists are coming out from other countries to the USA.
The rate of engineers/scientists coming to the USA from India or
China are much much higher than that of Bangladesh.
Given that all the people of other countries have become CS graduates,
Bangladesh still will be the highest in flooding, because of demand and
supply curve the CS profession will join the "Cheap-Labor" profession,
and yet indeed Bangladesh will continue supply "Cheap-Labor"=)
In any case, I don't want to change the topic. The main reason of
my post is to aware everyone that we need to incorporate a
computer related course in the high school level classes (grade
8 to grade 12) in Bangladesh. I think that is more important now.
After incorporating a computer related course we will see what happens.
Sohel Khan
>
> Regards,
> Zahid
> Dr Zahid Hussain, BSc, PhD (Lond) E-Mail: za...@rajshahi.demon.co.uk
> z.hu...@ieee.org
> URL: http://www.rajshahi.demon.co.uk/
> // if (absolute power) -> absolute corruption;
>
>
##
Masum Hasan
In article <332929...@tiuk.ti.com>,
Zahid Hussain <Zahid....@tiuk.ti.com> wrote:
|: Hasan Jamil wrote:
|: >
|: > Rashid Farook wrote:
|:
|: There is little reason to develop programs which is limited to the
|: Bangladesh
|: market. Although there may be programs which would only be of interest
|: to
|: Bangladeshis most programs will be more generic. A program consists of
|: basically
|: two parts: algorithms and UI (user interface). For example, if you were
|: developing a browser, the algorithms does not change for the Chinese,
|: Europian or
|: Bangladesh market. However the UI will have to be customised for each
|: specific
|: market to cater for different fonts, graphics and keyboard layout. You
|: will
|: have to decide whether UI customisation effort and cost will be
|: reuperated
|: by sales.
That depends Dr. Zahid what is your interpretation or solution for
Banglaization (any better term?) of computers. If developing fonts
is the only solution you are right. Let me give you an example,
Lempel-Ziv compression algorithm applied on Bangla fonts wouldn't
compress Bangla. We need ASCII-like (BASCII?)
encoding of Bangla alphabets. And then you have to tweak LZ
algorithm, such as feeding it with the alphabet size among other things.
Then there are issues of efficient info storage, retrieval,
efficient and reliable coding for correct transfer of messages
tuned specifically to Bangla language, etc.
Shouldn't we aim for much more general solutions for Banglaization
of computers?
|: I think what you are trying to say is that, would it not awesome if
|: there
|: existed a WAN or backbone in Bangladesh connecting up the universities
|: and
|: major institutes. Certainly, smtp, ftpd, httpd and telnetd can be run on
Ah my lecture/proposal at the "Internet Week" (organized by NSU and myself
during my visit home in September 96) for a "ShikshaNet" (Academic Net),
attended by the Telecom Minister Md. Nasim, Telecom Ministry people,
BUET, DU Profs, ISPers, etc. But well, we are always good at giving long
lectures, organizing weeks, chew/smoke/drink/eat pan/birhi/cha/singara,
then forget about our ``achievements'' like the pan that went into oblivion
with the red pick, birhi with the blue smoke into the air, cha/singara
as usual with the flush of the toilet.
|: high
|: end 486 or low end Pentiums (P90) running Linux. However, a highspeed
|: dedicated backbone link is not cheap but the commercial benefits are
|: enormous.
|:
|: >
|: > During my visit to Bangladesh last summer, I came to understand that
|: > there are numerous impediments in developing a quality software industry
|: > in BD in general. The people there are mostly interested in data entry
|: > kind of contracts from abroad.
|:
|: This is not so bad. It atleast earns foreign exchange. Not everything
|: has
|: to be rocket science.
|:
Don't be so pessimistic Dr. Zahid. But there has to be a start.
|: >
|: > I was really disappointed by the level of computer science education in
|: > BD. While it is certainly better than nothing, but to compete in todays
|: > international market as a country, it is nothing. I would even go to say
|: > it is pathetic.
|:
|: I have not attended school in BD so I wont comment.
|:
I haven't attended school in BD either. I wouldn't have had a chance either,
because during my time CS dept was non-existent. But I do not agree with
Rashid Farook that CS education in BD is pathetic. The curricula at the BUET
CSE dept is up to the standard. Dr. Kaikobad is bringing up excellent CS
graduates. I am sure most of them are excelling in North America and
other corners of the earth. Dr. Kaikobad is a damn good CS Prof.
He with his brilliant students is publishing in reputed CS journals
from the soil of Bangladesh. Yes, it is unfortunate that these brilliant
students are not returning as Dr. Kaikobad did even though he had
opportunities outside. May be we should debate on "why we are not returning?"
|:
|: Indian government has made tremendous effort over a number of years to
|: attract inward investment and joint ventures in this area. I would
|: certainly
|: agree with you that BD government also needs to set up one or two strong
|: engineering/technology departments and encourage the development of
|: science parks around them.
|:
Yes, Govt should provide incentives to existing depts/schools and
create new ones.
|:
|: > I know for sure that North South
|: > University, in particular, is trying to hire qualified CS faculty for
|: > quite soem time without any success. I believe the picture is similar in
Jamil Bhai, they should try to recruit the smart graduates from BUET,
and DU (Applied Physics/CS) even if these graduates are in transition
to escape to the west. NSU at least gets constant supply of
qualified tutors.
|: > all other universities. I was surprised to see (but was not unexpected)
|: > that CS courses are being taught by Physicists, engineers and even CIS
|: > and MIS people. Its like me teaching Arabic or Human Psychology being a
|: > CS person. I don't think its difficult for me to do so. While one may
|: > question the quality.
|:
|: I really have to disagree with you here :) Back in the early 80's in the
|: UK, the number of good CS/CE departments could be counted on the fingers
|: of one hand. But there was tremendous amount of computer development
|: going on and these were happening in the Physics and EE departments at
|: Oxbridge, London and Manchester. I myself did my PhD in Parallel
|: Computing
|: and Image Processing from a Physics Dept. We were working on SIMD
|: processors,
|: architecture, compilers and algorithms. Recently, I was at Brunel
|: University as a consultant and Research Fellow. I worked in a group
|: where
|: we were developing SIMD array processors, novel computer architectures,
|: 3D computer graphics algorithms; this work was not being done in CS dept
|: but
|: in EE. There is no magic to CS being taught within CS dept, the
|: importance
|: is in choosing the appropriate carriculum.
|:
With due respect I have to diagree with Dr. Zahid and agree
with Jamil Bhai. There is a magic. Otherwise CS dept wouldn't
have existed at all. This is already a long followup. I could
go very technical with examples to attest to my standing on
this particular issue and boring everyone to long yawn. :-)
|: >
|: > - Jamil
|:
|: Best regards,
|: Zahid
|:
later,
Masum
Sohel Q. Khan
On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
> If you bothered to think, you would understand what I said is
> we have to do *much* better than them. That is possible and I know
> people who are trying to do that. However competing with India,
> China and Russia is not goiing to do it. We have to find
> ad *competitive* advantage.
Sorry to see that the discussion is changing to "competing with other
country...". My intention of the original post is to make everyone
aware that we need to introduce some type of computer related course
in our high schools ( grade 8 to 12). Before we can do better than other
country, let us first think about introducing some computer related
courses in high schools.
Hassan Alam
If you bothered to think, you would understand what I said is
we have to do *much* better than them. That is possible and I know
people who are trying to do that. However competing with India,
China and Russia is not goiing to do it. We have to find
ad *competitive* advantage.
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
: > Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: > : On 18 Mar 1997, Masum Hasan wrote:
: >
: > : > from the soil of Bangladesh. Yes, it is unfortunate that these brilliant
: > : > students are not returning as Dr. Kaikobad did even though he had
: > : > opportunities outside. May be we should debate on "why we are not returning?"
: > : >
: >
: > Imagine what India could do with 800 million people :).
: If India or China do not do anything, we don't have to follow them
: sitting idle. Infact, India encourages its nationals to go abroad.
: The demand of "technologist" will be forever. Bangladesh and
: India already flooding world's "cheap labor" market in Malayasia and
: Middle east. India is flooding the USA, Canada and Australia with
: "Technologists". Three out of four engineers in Silicon Valley are
: Indians.
: >
: > : I disagree with you here completely. There are 125 Million people
: > : in Bangladesh. All we need to do is to give Bangladeshi high
: > : school/intermeidate college students a chance to learn
: > : programing/coding/CS. Then, Bangladesh will be able to flood the
: > : America, Europe, Australia, and East-Asia with Bangladeshi brilliant
: > : programmers. If we can educate 125 Million, there will be a lot
: > : brilliant students left behind automatically in Bangladesh.
: >
: > : Sohel Khan
: >
: > --
: > Hassan Alam
: >
: >
: ##
: #
: ##### #
: #
: ##### #
: #
: ##
--
Hassan Alam
Sohel Q. Khan
Let us first think how we can help in the process of
introducing Computer related course in Bangaldesh high
schools. We need computers, text books, teacher, and
permission of the government. Not all of us can solve
all the problem.
However, there are some good Bangladeshi
scientists, engineers and teachers silently/actively
participate in the SCB.
Could we think about writing some Computer Text Books in Bangla
suitable for Bangladeshi high school (Grade 8-12) students?
Sohel Q. Khan
On 18 Mar 1997, Masum Hasan wrote:
> from the soil of Bangladesh. Yes, it is unfortunate that these brilliant
> students are not returning as Dr. Kaikobad did even though he had
> opportunities outside. May be we should debate on "why we are not returning?"
>
I disagree with you here completely. There are 125 Million people
Hassan Alam
Yes and bangladesh can also do data entry and compete with
every other third world country. We live in a global economy.
If we are going to invest our limited resources it has to be
in something where we can sustain a competitive advantage.
There is nothing the multi-nationals would like more than
hundreds of millions of third world programmer competing
for low paying jobs.
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Hassan Alam wrote:
: > If you bothered to think, you would understand what I said is
: > we have to do *much* better than them. That is possible and I know
: > people who are trying to do that. However competing with India,
: > China and Russia is not goiing to do it. We have to find
: > ad *competitive* advantage.
: Sorry to see that the discussion is changing to "competing with other
: country...". My intention of the original post is to make everyone
: aware that we need to introduce some type of computer related course
: in our high schools ( grade 8 to 12). Before we can do better than other
: country, let us first think about introducing some computer related
: courses in high schools.
--
Hassan Alam
Hassan Alam
Strongly suggest Bangladesh look at giving its people a solid
education in math, phyical sciences, social sciences and the
humanities. We need educated people who can learn *any* new
technology or skill in the future.
With high illiteracy rate the last thing we need to do is
waste our limited resources on skills that might be useless in
ten years (every try to re-train a cobol programmer :). Malaysia
and Singapore are doing extremely well with a *shortage* of computer
engineers. They have high literacy rates.
Sohel Q. Khan (sk...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
: Let us first think how we can help in the process of
--
Hassan Alam
Zahid Hussain
Masum Hasan wrote:
>
> In article <332929...@tiuk.ti.com>,
> Zahid Hussain <Zahid....@tiuk.ti.com> wrote:
> That depends Dr. Zahid what is your interpretation or solution for
> Banglaization (any better term?) of computers. If developing fonts
> is the only solution you are right. Let me give you an example,
> Lempel-Ziv compression algorithm applied on Bangla fonts wouldn't
> compress Bangla. We need ASCII-like (BASCII?)
> encoding of Bangla alphabets. And then you have to tweak LZ
> algorithm, such as feeding it with the alphabet size among other things.
> Then there are issues of efficient info storage, retrieval,
> efficient and reliable coding for correct transfer of messages
> tuned specifically to Bangla language, etc.
> Shouldn't we aim for much more general solutions for Banglaization
> of computers?
>
Sorry I fail to understand what you are try to drive at here. If you are
creating fonts then you would creat then in probably Opentype and Agfa
provides a good font compression technology. LZ derived compression
algorithms are not good at compressing bit mapped fonts. You want to
look at some form of RLE with arithmetic coding and if you want to know
the reasons look at the JBIG standard. If you use UNICODE, then you can
support Chineese/Japanese and SE Asian languages as well.
Anyway, I dont have a great deal of time to explain many of these
issues.
However, just as a direction, its illuminating to see the TeX code.
Using
the basic engine I can typeset in multilanguage. There is little or no
language specific code provided the glyphs can be encoded in 7/8-bits.
For Chinese/Japanese you need 16-bit encoding. But there is no reason
why an universal 16-bit encoding could not be used.
To me (unless some one here can provide me with detailed examples), the
"Banglaisation of computers" is to agree on an encoding scheme (8-bit or
UNICODE) and keyboard layout (mapping). Do we have to write different
codes to support graphics, equations and tables in a Bangla
wordprocessor?
I dont think so. For a bangla spreadsheet, beyond font support, what
special support do we need?
Lets try to leaverage as such as we can from what already out there.
I am not a great advocate of the NIH camp.
[Masum's meeting with the Telecomm minister and other dignitories
clipped]
> |: >
> |: > During my visit to Bangladesh last summer, I came to understand that
> |: > there are numerous impediments in developing a quality software industry
> |: > in BD in general. The people there are mostly interested in data entry
> |: > kind of contracts from abroad.
> |:
> |: This is not so bad. It atleast earns foreign exchange. Not everything
> |: has
> |: to be rocket science.
> |:
>
> Don't be so pessimistic Dr. Zahid. But there has to be a start.
Was I being pessimistic? Just the opposite actually. It is others who
are
bemoning that we are only doing data entry work. I am quite glad that
some
BD people have gone out and obtained these works from abroad and are
earning foreign exchange.
[snipped]
> May be we should debate on "why we are not returning?"
Others will have their own reasons, mine are personal and rather
selfish.
[snipped]
> |:
> |: There is no magic to CS being taught within CS dept, the
> |: importance
> |: is in choosing the appropriate carriculum.
> |:
>
> With due respect I have to diagree with Dr. Zahid and agree
> with Jamil Bhai. There is a magic. Otherwise CS dept wouldn't
> have existed at all. This is already a long followup. I could
> go very technical with examples to attest to my standing on
> this particular issue and boring everyone to long yawn. :-)
I will stand by my statement and choose to differ. My point was that
since we are evidently not producing sufficient number of CS graduates
and even fewer want to teach, you are not going to be able to set
up many CS departments outside of BUET. What about other universities
in BD? I would much rather see a core broad curriculum taught in
EE/Physics for greater exposure.
>
> |: >
> |: > - Jamil
> |:
> |: Best regards,
> |: Zahid
> |:
>
> later,
> Masum
>
Zahid Hussain
Hassan Alam wrote:
>
> Strongly suggest Bangladesh look at giving its people a solid
> education in math, phyical sciences, social sciences and the
> humanities. We need educated people who can learn *any* new
> technology or skill in the future.
>
> With high illiteracy rate the last thing we need to do is
> waste our limited resources on skills that might be useless in
> ten years (every try to re-train a cobol programmer :). Malaysia
> and Singapore are doing extremely well with a *shortage* of computer
> engineers. They have high literacy rates.
>
Now this is something I agree with. As I have tried to put across in
this
thread, too many people are advocating that we start running before we
have even learnt to crawl.
Progressing a little on from the high school education which Sohel is
harping on about and to university courses. I hope the universities
will continue to emphasise EE and applied Physics courses. Basic CS
can be taught within these curriculum. I think, this is a better
approach to producing graduates who can then persue a wider spectrum
of jobs. To borrow some medical metaphors, we need more GPs than
specialists.
Best regards,
Zahid
> --
> Hassan Alam
Regards,
Zahid