Has Russia to demand compensation from Latvia?
daniloff
The first Latvian language textbook was issued in Russian in Riga at 1868
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vello
Don't know about Latvia, but basically in Lutheran contries being
illiterate wa a crime from 1560-1580. I think Russia is not the sole
place where such pieces were written - hathred to neighbours is
"popular" also in some Arab countries - and surely in some other
underdeveloped places. With level of education rising, such hathred
normally disappears.
Tadas Blinda
> On Jan 4, 5:02špm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> >http://www.lebed.com/2004/art3908.htm
> > The first Latvian language textbook was issued in Russian in Riga at 1868
>
> > --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...@netfront.net ---
>
> Don't know about Latvia, but basically in Lutheran contries being
> illiterate wa a crime from 1560-1580. I think Russia is not the sole
> place where such pieces were written - hathred to neighbours is
> "popular" also in some Arab countries - and surely in some other
> underdeveloped places. With level of education rising, such hathred
> normally disappears.
Don't count on Russian hatred of Balts and other "breakaways"
disappearing any time soon. Russians have been brutes and bullies for
centuries, it's in their blood. Individual bullies usually fuss and
fume for the rest of their left and never recover from being deprived
of their victim. The time-scale for natural bullies is a lot larger.
Don't count on the collective attitude of the Russians showing much
improvement this century.
daniloff
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫/О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫:
news:b2c2eb65-4a47-4d0c-96f9-
>> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...@netfront.net ---
>
> Don't know about Latvia, but basically in Lutheran contries being
> illiterate wa a crime from 1560-1580. I think Russia is not the sole
> place where such pieces were written - hathred to neighbours is
> "popular" also in some Arab countries - and surely in some other
> underdeveloped places. With level of education rising, such hathred
> normally disappears.
Those remarks by Alfred Koch, our liberal-reformator concern Latvia only.
About Lietuva and Estonia he write:
"О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ (О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫) О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ (О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫)."
But there is something he wrote about Russian :-)
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫: - О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫:
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫: - О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫. О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫: - О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫?
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫: - О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫. О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ (О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ - О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫), О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫. О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ - О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫.
О©╫О©╫О©╫ (О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫) О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ XIX О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫, О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫ О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
daniloff
"Tadas Blinda" <tadas....@lycos.es> сообщил/сообщила в новостях
следующее:
news:91ac091e-97c9-4c6a...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
It is interesting to hear a real russophobe :-)
vello
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ÓÏÏÂÝÉÌ/ÓÏÏÂÝÉÌÁ × ÎÏ×ÏÓÔÑÈ ÓÌÅÄÕÀÝÅÅ:
> news:b2c2eb65-4a47-4d0c-96f9-
>
> >> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...@netfront.net ---
>
> > Don't know about Latvia, but basically in Lutheran contries being
> > illiterate wa a crime from 1560-1580. I think Russia is not the sole
> > place where such pieces were written - hathred to neighbours is
> > "popular" also in some Arab countries - and surely in some other
> > underdeveloped places. With level of education rising, such hathred
> > normally disappears.
>
> Those remarks by Alfred Koch, our liberal-reformator concern Latvia only.
> About Lietuva and Estonia he write:
>
> ×ÒÅÍÅÎÉ ÕÖÅ ÂÙÌÁ ×ÅÌÉËÁÑ ÉÓÔÏÒÉÑ) É ÜÓÔÏÎÃÁÈ (ÜÔÉ ÓÐÏËÏÊÎÏ ÆÕÎËÃÉÏÎÉÒÏ×ÁÌÉ
> ×ÎÕÔÒÉ ÆÉÎÓËÏÊ ËÕÌØÔÕÒÎÏÊ ÔÒÁÄÉÃÉÉ, ËÏÔÏÒÁÑ ÎÉËÏÇÄÁ ÎÅ ÔÅÒÑÌÁ ÄÕÈÏ×ÎÕÀ Ó×ÑÚØ
> Ó üÓÔÏÎÉÅÊ)."
>
> But there is something he wrote about Russian :-)
>
> ÐÏÔÒÅÂÎÏÓÔØ ËÕÐÉÔØ, ËÕÐÉÔØ, ËÕÐÉÔØ:
> áÌØÆÒÅÄ ëÏÈ: - äÌÑ ÔÏÇÏ ÞÔÏÂÙ ËÕÐÉÔØ, ÎÕÖÎÏ ÉÍÅÔØ ÄÅÎØÇÉ. òÕÓÓËÉÅ ÎÉÞÅÇÏ
> ÚÁÒÁÂÏÔÁÔØ ÎÅ ÍÏÇÕÔ, ÐÏÜÔÏÍÕ ÏÎÉ ËÕÐÉÔØ ÎÉÞÅÇÏ ÎÅ ÍÏÇÕÔ
> öÕÒÎÁÌÉÓÔ: - á ËÁË ×Ù ÐÒÏÇÎÏÚÉÒÕÅÔÅ ÜËÏÎÏÍÉÞÅÓËÏÅ ÂÕÄÕÝÅÅ òÏÓÓÉÉ?
> áÌØÆÒÅÄ ëÏÈ: - óÙÒØÅ×ÏÊ ÐÒÉÄÁÔÏË. âÅÚÕÓÌÏ×ÎÁÑ ÜÍÉÇÒÁÃÉÑ ×ÓÅÈ ÌÀÄÅÊ, ËÏÔÏÒÙÅ
> ÍÏÇÕÔ ÄÕÍÁÔØ, ÎÏ ÎÅ ÕÍÅÀÔ ÒÁÂÏÔÁÔØ (× ÓÍÙÓÌÅ - ËÏÐÁÔØ), ËÏÔÏÒÙÅ ÔÏÌØËÏ
> ÉÚÏÂÒÅÔÁÔØ ÕÍÅÀÔ. äÁÌÅÅ - ÒÁÚ×ÁÌ, ÐÒÅ×ÒÁÝÅÎÉÅ × ÄÅÓÑÔÏË ÍÁÌÅÎØËÉÈ
> ÇÏÓÕÄÁÒÓÔ×.
>
> ïÎÉ (ÒÕÓÓËÉÅ) ÔÁË ÓÏÂÏÊ ÌÀÂÕÀÔÓÑ, ÏÎÉ ÄÏ ÓÉÈ ÐÏÒ ×ÏÓÈÉÝÁÀÔÓÑ Ó×ÏÉÍ ÂÁÌÅÔÏÍ É
> Ó×ÏÅÊ ËÌÁÓÓÉÞÅÓËÏÊ ÌÉÔÅÒÁÔÕÒÏÊ XIX ×ÅËÁ, ÞÔÏ ÏÎÉ ÕÖÅ ÎÅ × ÓÏÓÔÏÑÎÉÉ ÎÉÞÅÇÏ
> ÎÏ×ÏÇÏ ÓÄÅÌÁÔØ
I tried all cyrillic variants on my computer but anyway I see only
meaningless lines of latin letters. What encoding you use? Or may you
put just liks - would be interesting to read what he says about
estonians :-) Is he a son of famous nazi-man?
Tadas Blinda
> "Tadas Blinda" <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> сообщил/сообщила в новостях
What part of the assessment do you claim to be inaccurate; and on what
grounds? Any reliable evidence?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Jan 4, 5:02špm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> >http://www.lebed.com/2004/art3908.htm
> > The first Latvian language textbook was issued in Russian in Riga at 1868
>
>
> Don't know about Latvia, but basically in Lutheran contries being
> illiterate wa a crime from 1560-1580.
>
Yes, but until the 19th century, literacy in Latvia usually meant
written German:
http://www.alsintl.com/resources/languages/Latvian/
Purification of the Latvian Language in the 19th Century
Due to the fact that the upper class of Latvian society was made up of
Baltic Germans, Latvian retained heavy German language influences
until the 19th century. This began to change in the mid-1800s in
accordance with an awakening of Latvian nationalist sentiment.
The Latvian National Awakening popularized the use of a purely Latvian
language, an effort that mostly involved the “latvianization” of
foreign loanwords (primarily German) that had been adopted into the
Latvian language.
------------------------------------------------
I would also like to find out how serious, in your opinion, of a crime
was illiteracy. Were Latvian and Lutheran peasants executed or simply
sentenced to life in prison for being illiterate?
>
> I think Russia is not the sole
> place where such pieces were written - hathred to neighbours is
> "popular" also in some Arab countries - and surely in some other
> underdeveloped places. With level of education rising, such hathred
> normally disappears.
>
Not necessarily. People in modern Latvia and Estonia are at least as
educated as Arabs, and yet the amount of hatred for their Russian
neighbours in Latvia and Estonia is incredible and is comparable to
the Arab hate of Israel.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Tadas Blinda" <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> сообщил/сообщила в новостях
Don't count on Baltic hatred of Russians disappearing any time soon.
Don't count on the collective attitude of the Balts showing much
improvement this century.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
There is no hate for Balts among average Russians. Baltic countries
were Russian colonies and were viewed as such. You may consider this
to be similar to the way England colonised Ireland. Do the English
hate the Irish? I would say that there is more hate on the part of
Irish Catholics towards England than vise versa. Similarly, there is
much more hate on the part of Balts towards Russia than vise versa.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
No, his family has lived in Russia for many centuries. He is a Volga
German. There are millions of them.
There are no famous Nazis nor sons of famous Nazis living in Russia.
Unlike USA, USSR didn't import important Nazis after WW2.
Also, believe it or not, but Nazis and Waffen SS are viewed in Russia
and most other countries with much less respect than in Iran, Estonia,
and Arab countries.
U.S. intelligence involvement with German and Japanese war criminals
after World War II
US military and intelligence agencies protected some war criminals in
the interest of obtaining technical or intelligence information from
them, or taking part in ongoing intelligence or engineering (e.g.,
Operation Paperclip). Multiple US intelligence organizations were
involved (the Central Intelligence Agency was not created until 1947
and in control of its clandestine services until 1952). The
relationships with German war criminals started immediately after the
end of the Second World War.
The United States government, preoccupied with the cold war, had no
policy at the time of pursuing Nazi war criminals. The records also
show that US intelligence officials protected many former Nazis for
their perceived value in combating the Soviet threat. But Holtzman,
speaking at a news briefing at the National Archives on Tuesday, said
information from the former Nazis was often tainted both by their
"personal agendas" and their vulnerability to blackmail. "Using bad
people can have very bad consequences," Holtzman said. She and other
group members suggested that the findings should be a cautionary tale
for intelligence agencies today."
Occupiers also acquiesced in the appointment to leading positions in
the new West German government of such former aides to Adolf Hitler as
Hans Globke, who had co-authored the antisemitic Nuremberg Laws of the
1930s and then went on to become one of Chancellor Konrad Adenauer’s
closest advisors.
----------------------------------
You see, Vello, Koch is a very common German name, more common than
the name Cook in English. In fact, that's what 'Koch" means in
German: "Cook". Check it out!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Koch
Alfred Reingoldovich Kokh (Koch) (Russian: Альфред Рейнгольдович Кох,
born February 28, 1961, in Zyryanovsk, Kazakhstan, USSR) is a Russian
writer, mathematician-economist, and businessman of ethnic German
origin. He served as a deputy prime minister under President Boris
Yeltsin and was an ally of economic reformer Anatoly Chubais, a chief
architect of Russia's privatization. On September 12, 1996, Kokh was
appointed head of Russia's State Property Committee, acting as
Russia's privatization chief. He left the position on August 13, 1997,
after the privatization auctions (loans-for-shares).
Here is a partial list of other Koches that Alfred is not related to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_%28surname%29
Koch (surname)
Koch (pronounced [ˈkɔx] in German, although it is often pronounced
differently in other countries) is a German surname meaning cook and
may refer to:
* Bill Koch (skier), cross-country skier
* Billy Koch, Major league baseball relief pitcher
* Bobby Koch, CEO of the Wine Institute
* Carl Koch, (1892–1963), German film director and writer
* Carl Ludwig Koch and his son Ludwig Carl Christian Koch, German
entomologists specializing in arachnology
* Charles G. Koch, Billionaire, heir and CEO of Koch Industries
and co-founder of the free-market Cato Institute
* Christof Koch (born 1956), American neuroscientist
* David Koch (television presenter), Australian financial analyst
and TV presenter
* David H. Koch, Billionaire, 1980 Libertarian Party Vice-
Presidential candidate, heir to Koch Industries
* Dorothy Bush Koch (born 1959), daughter of the 41st president of
the US, George Herbert Walker Bush
* Edward I. Koch, American mayor of New York City
* Erich Koch, Gauleiter of East Prussia
* Fred C. Koch, Founder of Koch Industries, and supporter of the
John Birch Society
* Gaetano Koch, Italian architect
* Georg Koch, German football goalkeeper, playing for Dinamo
Zagreb
* Helge von Koch, Swedish mathematician, originator of the
eponymous "Koch snowflake"
* Hawk Koch, American film producer
* Howard Koch (screenwriter), American screenwriter
* Howard W. Koch, American film director/producer
* Ilse Koch, wife of Karl Otto Koch, "The Bitch of Buchenwald"
* Jim Koch , American brewer, founder of Boston Beer Company
* Julius Koch (1872–1902), exceptionally tall man
* Karl Koch — several people, among them:
o Karl Koch (botanist), German botanist
o Karl Otto Koch, German first commandant of the Buchenwald
concentration camp
* Kees Koch (born 1936), Dutch discus thrower
* Kenneth Koch, an American poet
* Lauge Koch, Danish expedition leader in Greenland
* Lothar Koch (oboist), German oboist
* Lothar Koch (born 1939), German politician
* Ludwig Carl Christian Koch (1825-1908), German entomologist and
arachnologist
* Marianne Koch (born 1931), German actress and physician
* Marita Koch (born 1957), German sprint athlete
* Mariza Koch, Greek folk singer
* Martin Koch, Swedish novelist
* Peter Koch, American photographer
* Pietro Koch, Italian police leader
* Richard Koch (born 1950), management consultant, entrepreneur,
and writer
* Robert Koch, German physician, discoverer of the tubercle and
cholera bacilli, Nobel Prize in Medicine laureate in 1905
o Koch's postulates, formulated by Robert Koch
* Robert Koch Woolf, American interior decorator
* Roland Koch, German politician
* Simona Koch (born 1968), German diver
* Stefanie Koch (b. 1981), German ski mountaineer
* Walter Karl Koch, German surgeon
* Werner Koch (born 1961), German software author
* Wilhelm Daniel Joseph Koch (1771-1849), German physician and
botanist
* Bill Koch (businessman) William I. "Bill" Koch, America's Cup
yachtsman, businessman, and son of Fred C. Koch
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> Yes, but until the 19th century, literacy in Latvia usually meant
> written German...
Oh, look -- Karlamov casually Googles something he knows nothing about
and then misreads it -- how surprising is that? You think "heavy
German influences" meant that Latvian turned German?
The spread of literacy was primarily in Latvian. Glück's Bible was
published in 1694; he also founded the first Latvian schools in
Southern Livland --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Ernst_Gl%C3%BCck
Elger translated Catholic texts and taught in Latvian among the
Jesuits here in Daugavpils already in the 1630s. With some effort --
and, yes, the ability to deal with those German influences, which
aren't such obstacles to comprehension as one might think -- his songs
are most definitely in Latvian, and he was quite innovative in noting
Latvian intonation. He also compiled the first major Latvian
dictionary --
http://www.mb.vu.lt/unesco/knygos/knygos/filolog/lota/anglu/emlota.htm
The Herrnhuter Brüdergemeine (Moravian Brethren) had the most profound
impact on literacy in Latvia, arriving from Germany in 1737, learning
Latvian, and founding the first institution to train teachers who
would educate the peasantry in Livland, in 1738 - also the first such
institution in the entire Russian Empire. By the time they were
ordered out of the Empire by Elizabeth in 1743 (one of the many
impediments to education Russia has so kindly provided) -- they'd
trained c. 130 teachers who taught others, leading to Livland having
the highest literacy rates in the Empire, which persisted until the
Empire's collapse.
The level of literacy compared quite favorably even to Western
Europe's and dwarfed that of Russia proper. There were localities that
had between two thirds and even 90% literacy by the end of the 18th C;
by comparison, it was 50% in Germany and 4% in Russia at the time. The
published material was primarily Christian and utilitarian, and can be
called "literature in Latvian" rather than "Latvian literature."
There was, however, a considerable unofficial literature -- that
written by peasants, by hand, in Latvian, from the 1740s, under the
influence of the Moravians; over 500 such manuscripts have been found,
representing a fraction of what was produced.
Secular literature in Latvian developed in the 1700s; see, for
instance, the contributions of Stender the Elder --
http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothards_Fr%C4%ABdrihs_Stenders
(The church at Laši is near me, in Selonia; it's my photo.)
The first periodical in Latvian appeared in 1768.
Stender the Younger translated the first drama to appear in Latvian in
1790; the first original play appeared in 1809.
The contrast between what's known as "Old Latvian" and the "New
Latvian" of the First Awakening from the 1850s is profound, but not
drastic. The seeds of the national idea were sown already by the
Moravian brethren.
/P
J. Anderson
"Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b1069e42-7de6-4911...@22g2000yqr.googlegroups.com...
> The seeds of the national idea were sown already by the Moravian brethren.
Interesting info about the Herrnhutians, thanks! More here:
http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/moravian.html
And speaking of the Moravians, Peeteri:
St'astn� Nov� Rok 2010!
John
J. Anderson
"J. Anderson" <ander...@inbox.lv> wrote in message
news:HZD0n.60104$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
Something turned my y's into zeds. Let's try without diacritics:
Sht'astnyy Novyy Rok!
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
> "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedr...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:b1069e42-7de6-4911...@22g2000yqr.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The seeds of the national idea were sown already by the Moravian brethren.
>
> Interesting info about the Herrnhutians, thanks! More here:http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/moravian.html
>
> And speaking of the Moravians, Peeteri:
> John
Happy New Year to you, too!
The Brethren were long underrated as one of the major factors in
Latvia's national development. As Sadra Meškova said to me one night
-- "viss sākās ar hernhūtiešiem." Even their influence on the choral
singing for which we're so well known -- and that is so important to
national consciousness -- was significant.
If your Latvian is coming along, John -- and to those still about at
s.c.b. who know Latvian -- I very highly recommend Straube's brief
paper on just how important a role the Brethren played in multiple
realms --
http://www.lnb.lv/lv/bibliotekariem/konferencu-materiali/20051123/GvidoStraube.pdf
Regarding Old Latvian and Karlamov's claim, Rutkis in his 1967
compendium: "It is to the lasting credit of these personalities
[Mancelius et al.] that the inevitable influence of their native
German language on their Latvian writings was kept within reasonable
bounds. This influence did not assume such proportions and such a form
as to separate the Latvian literary language from popular speech..."
Terveisin,
/P
daniloff
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:bfb162d7-4ac9-4c3a...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...>> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
>> news:b2c2eb65-4a47-4d0c-96f9-
>>
>> >> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...@netfront.net ---
>>
>> > Don't know about Latvia, but basically in Lutheran contries being
>> > illiterate wa a crime from 1560-1580. I think Russia is not the sole
>> > place where such pieces were written - hathred to neighbours is
>> > "popular" also in some Arab countries - and surely in some other
>> > underdeveloped places. With level of education rising, such hathred
>> > normally disappears.
>>
>> Those remarks by Alfred Koch, our liberal-reformator concern Latvia only.
>> About Lietuva and Estonia he write:
>>
>> ??????? ??? ???? ??????? ???????) ? ???????? (??? ????????
>> ???????????????
>> ?????? ??????? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????????
>> ?????
>> ? ????????)."
>>
>> But there is something he wrote about Russian :-)
>>
>> ??????????? ??????, ??????, ??????:
>> ??????? ???: - ??? ???? ????? ??????, ????? ????? ??????. ??????? ??????
>> ?????????? ?? ?????, ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????
>> ?????????: - ? ??? ?? ????????????? ????????????? ??????? ???????
>> ??????? ???: - ???????? ????????. ??????????? ????????? ???? ?????,
>> ???????
>> ????? ??????, ?? ?? ????? ???????? (? ?????? - ??????), ??????? ??????
>> ?????????? ?????. ????? - ??????, ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????
>> ??????????.
>>
>> ??? (???????) ??? ????? ????????, ??? ?? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????
>> ??????? ?
>> ????? ???????????? ??????????? XIX ????, ??? ??? ??? ?? ? ?????????
>> ??????
>> ?????? ???????
>
> I tried all cyrillic variants on my computer but anyway I see only
> meaningless lines of latin letters. What encoding you use? Or may you
> put just liks - would be interesting to read what he says about
> estonians :-) Is he a son of famous nazi-man?
My coding was charset="koi8-r"
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
daniloff
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> сообщил/сообщила
в новостях следующее:
news:ccd80302-0c95-4917...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
I hope it is not so.
And Vello is such ground for my hope :-)
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
vello
I think you are not right. I never met in our printed or webmedia such
pieces about russia/Russians like in russian media - read for start a
quote what Daniloff puts here yesterday. England/Ireland case is a bit
different, it's like attitude of estonians to germans 100 years ago.
(Well, today with Ireland becoming more rich/developed then UK, maybe
things will be change).
vello
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> сообщил/сообщила
It was not so much targeted on individual persons but those were years
of mass immigration from Russia so any word you hear in russian on the
streets was remining to you that your nation is leaving the world
scene. It ends in 1991. Estonians are practical nation we think about
dangers till they are acute. Russians no way endanger us today no
there is no ground to have bad feelings.
vello
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 8:36 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 4, 5:02špm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.lebed.com/2004/art3908.htm
> > > The first Latvian language textbook was issued in Russian in Riga at 1868
>
> > > --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...@netfront.net ---
>
> > Don't know about Latvia, but basically in Lutheran contries being
> > illiterate wa a crime from 1560-1580.
>
> Yes, but until the 19th century, literacy in Latvia usually meant
> written German:
>
> http://www.alsintl.com/resources/languages/Latvian/
>
> Purification of the Latvian Language in the 19th Century
>
> Due to the fact that the upper class of Latvian society was made up of
> Baltic Germans, Latvian retained heavy German language influences
> until the 19th century. This began to change in the mid-1800s in
> accordance with an awakening of Latvian nationalist sentiment.
>
> The Latvian National Awakening popularized the use of a purely Latvian
> language, an effort that mostly involved the “latvianization” of
> foreign loanwords (primarily German) that had been adopted into the
> Latvian language.
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> I would also like to find out how serious, in your opinion, of a crime
> was illiteracy. Were Latvian and Lutheran peasants executed or simply
> sentenced to life in prison for being illiterate?
No, it was simpler - you get whipped behind the church :-) When one
gets 18 years old, he had to pass church school, called "leer" and
give the Leer examinations (reading, writing, knowledge of Bible). If
you don't pass it you were not considered as adult one - you had no
right to undersign papers etc.
>
>
>
> > I think Russia is not the sole
> > place where such pieces were written - hathred to neighbours is
> > "popular" also in some Arab countries - and surely in some other
> > underdeveloped places. With level of education rising, such hathred
> > normally disappears.
>
> Not necessarily. People in modern Latvia and Estonia are at least as
> educated as Arabs, and yet the amount of hatred for their Russian
> neighbours in Latvia and Estonia is incredible and is comparable to
> the Arab hate of Israel.
you often ask for evidence - so seemly you have numbers about bomb
attacks commited by estonians against russians here, pieces of writing
a la Mr Koch etc etc?
J. Anderson
"daniloff" <mdan...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
news:hhv5hp$2qu3$1...@adenine.netfront.net...> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
> On Jan 4, 12:19 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>> ?????????:news:91ac091e-97c9-4c6a...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > >http://www.lebed.com/2004/art3908.htm
>> > > The first Latvian language textbook was issued in Russian in Riga at
>> > > 1868
>>
>> > > --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...@netfront.net ---
>>
>> > Don't know about Latvia, but basically in Lutheran contries being
>> > illiterate wa a crime from 1560-1580. I think Russia is not the sole
>> > place where such pieces were written - hathred to neighbours is
>> > "popular" also in some Arab countries - and surely in some other
>> > underdeveloped places. With level of education rising, such hathred
>> > normally disappears.
>>
>> Don't count on Russian hatred of Balts and other "breakaways"
>> disappearing any time soon. Russians have been brutes and bullies for
>> centuries, it's in their blood. Individual bullies usually fuss and
>> fume for the rest of their left and never recover from being deprived
>> of their victim. The time-scale for natural bullies is a lot larger.
>> Don't count on the collective attitude of the Russians showing much
>> improvement this century.
>>
>> It is interesting to hear a real russophobe :-)
>>
>
> Don't count on Baltic hatred of Russians disappearing any time soon.
> Don't count on the collective attitude of the Balts showing much
> improvement this century.
>
> I hope it is not so.
> And Vello is such ground for my hope :-)
There is a very simple way to make friends. You only need to be decent and
trustworthy. Until Russia learns this, it will have no friends.
Meanwhile, what does Putin do? He says that Russia must develop new
offensive weapon systems. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8433352.stm
Russia may think that it has some friends, but they have either been bought,
or then they are only pretending to be friends in expectation of future
services. Such 'friends' are as lasting as the autumn leaves.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
A very good question, given that it was you who first compared
Russians to Arabs:
>
> > > I think Russia is not the sole
> > > place where such pieces were written - hathred to neighbours is
> > > "popular" also in some Arab countries - and surely in some other
> > > underdeveloped places.
>
you often ask for evidence - so seemly you have numbers about bomb
attacks commited by Russians against Balts. How many?
As far as "pieces of writing a la Mr Koch" are concerned, Daniloff
hasn't yet provided any links or legible quotes, so I have no idea
what Koch said. My Google Groups doesn't display his Cyrillic text.
Can you fill me in on what he said?
And yes, I can give you examples of Latvian writers, journalists and
(ex-)officials, including even some elected ones, who said and/or
wrote very nasty things about Russia.
And as far as average Balts go - well, just read what people like
Lorad, Henry and Tadas have written about Russia here.
In any case, please give me examples (with context) of the things that
Koch has said.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
>
> news:hhv5hp$2qu3$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com>
Wasn't Yeltsin decent and trustworthy? Then how come in the 1990s,
Balts, Poles and Americans spoke and acted in a hostile way towards
Russia?
Maybe the problem is is that it was the West that didn't act in a
decent and trustworthy manner towards Yeltsin's Russia?
As am old Estonian proverb goes, according to Vello - you reap what
you sow.
You can't whip Russia for almost 10 years and then be surprised that
it turns hostile towards you.
>
> Until Russia learns this, it will have no friends.
>
> Meanwhile, what does Putin do? He says that Russia must develop new
> offensive weapon systems.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8433352.stm
>
Is that unusual or unexpected? Don't USA and NATO have much more and
better offensive AND defensive weapon systems than Russia? I think
Russia's defense spending is 6% of that of USA and maybe 4% that of
NATO as a whole. . In fact, Russia spends less on defence than even
France or UK.
>
> Russia may think that it has some friends, but they have either been bought,
> or then they are only pretending to be friends in expectation of future
> services. Such 'friends' are as lasting as the autumn leaves.
>
Well, USA is a great friend of the Baltics. How much has USA helped
the Balts in their time of trouble, like the current economic crisis?
A friend in need is a friend in deed. All USA wants from the Balts is
their help with the American military adventures all over the World.
Anton
> "vello" <vell...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
>>> ??? (???????) ??? ????? ????????, ??? ?? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????
>> I tried all cyrillic variants on my computer but anyway I see only
>> meaningless lines of latin letters. What encoding you use? Or may you
>> put just liks - would be interesting to read what he says about
>> estonians :-) Is he a son of famous nazi-man?
> My coding was charset="koi8-r"
...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I have told
everybody here several times, that the problem is Google Groups: it is
broken, out of order, kaputt, неисправный. Period.
I don't mean to be impolite, but if you use Google and this is a problem
to you, then a) fix it (change to something that is known to work) or b)
suffer in silence (-> don't bother others with a problem that is in
"your end" that only you yourself can fix).
(Sorry, but this is like the 5th time this topic was brought up.)
Regards,
--
Anton, "the IT-guy"
daniloff
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> сообщил/сообщила
в новостях следующее:
news:db4c2963-6721-4e42...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
> you often ask for evidence - so seemly you have numbers about bomb
> attacks commited by estonians against russians here, pieces of writing
> a la Mr Koch etc etc?
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Mr Koch was my provocation
It was not Russian attacks a la Mr Koch because mr Koch positions himself as
German.and belonging to West world
You read me not inadvertently as i gave some words of Mr Koch concerning
Russian too.
In my opinion mr Koch is typical member of Kremlin colonial administration
that rules Russia now and maintains the deliveries of Russian mineral wealth
for free to West
Для того чтобы купить, нужно иметь деньги. Русские ничего заработать не
могут, поэтому они купить ничего не могут
One need money to buy something. Russians cannot earn anything so they
cannot buy anything.
Они (русские) так собой любуются, они до сих пор восхищаются своим балетом и
своей классической литературой XIX века, что они уже не в состоянии ничего
нового сделать
They (Russian) so admire themselves, (they admire till now with the their
ballet and the classical literature of XIX century, that they are not able
to make anything new any more
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
As far as "pieces of writing a la Mr Koch" are concerned, Daniloff
hasn't yet provided any links or legible quotes, so I have no idea
what Koch said. My Google Groups doesn't display his Cyrillic text.
Can you fill me in on what he said?
_____________________________________________________
http://www.lebed.com/2004/art3908.htm
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
daniloff
"Anton" <anton....@gmail.com> сообщил/сообщила в новостях следующее:
news:hhvfmd$863$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
In what coding I need to write to be eaten by Google Groups?
daniloff
"J. Anderson" <ander...@inbox.lv> О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫/О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫:
news:U8G0n.60128$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
You say too :-)
There is some Russian joke
Some 80 years old man ask doctors. Doctor, my neighbour is 80 years old man
too but he says he has sex 10 time per day.
What need I to do?
You say too.
Putin paint to you
Kochs and other thieves bring Russia to such state of deindustrialisation
that she is not able to make something new.
>
> Russia may think that it has some friends, but they have either been
> bought, or then they are only pretending to be friends in expectation of
> future services. Such 'friends' are as lasting as the autumn leaves.
"Russia always had only two allies - her army and her fleet. Others abandon
her at the first opportunity "
Alexander III
>
>
>
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
The US was central to the Western refusal to recognize the forcible
incorporation of the Baltic States by the USSR. It was Bill Clinton
who played a decisive, direct role in getting Russia to withdraw its
troops from Latvia (along with Swedish diplomats). As to help during
the current crisis -- the US has the largest single stake in the IMF,
which is what keeps Latvia afloat; the IMF has given Latvia the third
largest quota in its history. Whether it's the Peace Corps arriving in
the early 1990s to teach English and business or whether it's support
provided to NGOs to develop a civil society, US influence (both
positive and negative) is considerable if you bear in mind how distant
it is and how weak our economic ties are. Even Daugavpils has an
American library.
A vast majority of Balts -- and that even includes not a few ethnic
Russians here, by the way -- wanted to be in NATO, in which the US is
the leading country. It's NATO that defended the free world against
the Russo-Soviet menace for four decades, until the menace collapsed
of internal rot. Sensible people realize that collective security is
something to which one must contribute, hence the "collective" part.
As so often, I completely agree with John. Russia's friends are
primarily people Russia has bought, + a motley crew of subpar misfits
who detest the countries they prosper in, like Karlamov. I wouldn't
want to feed the Russian sense of paranoia or anything, but I concur
with John's criterion -- start with decency. You're indecent. All you
want to do is engage in what Lucas terms "whataboutery," and almost
nobody buys it. You want to minimize Stalinist evils, salt it with a
sick nostalgia for the Czarist Empire, disclaim responsibility for
Russian crimes with ancient canards like "the Latvians and Jews did
it!" and sell it on the "free market." Ain't nobody buying it.
/P
daniloff
"Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> ???????/???????? ?
???????? ?????????:
news:a9f7fb5e-ae1d-4f29...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
As so often, I completely agree with John. Russia's friends are
primarily people Russia has bought,
______________________________________________________
Sometimes Russia bought her friends, friends like Bulgarians bought with
Russian blood at Shipka mountain.
Like Georgians, licking boots of Russian Tzar being in blank terror of
Turks.
And were are those friends?
Bulgarians two times fight against Russia - in WWI and WWII
Georgians licks boot of American president now.
"Russia always had only two allies - her army and her fleet. Others abandon
her at the first opportunity "
Alexander III
+ a motley crew of subpar misfits
who detest the countries they prosper in, like Karlamov. I wouldn't
want to feed the Russian sense of paranoia or anything, but I concur
with John's criterion -- start with decency. You're indecent. All you
want to do is engage in what Lucas terms "whataboutery," and almost
nobody buys it. You want to minimize Stalinist evils, salt it with a
sick nostalgia for the Czarist Empire, disclaim responsibility for
Russian crimes with ancient canards like "the Latvians and Jews did
it!" and sell it on the "free market." Ain't nobody buying it.
/P
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
[snip]
> "Russia always had only two allies - her army and her fleet. Others abandon
> her at the first opportunity "
> Alexander III
Why might that be, Daniloff?
/P
daniloff
"Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> ???????/???????? ?
???????? ?????????:
news:84525129-58d9-4bd9...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
________________________________________________________________________________
Why, Cedrins?
Would you like to explane these words of lord Palmerstone too?
"Therefore I say that it is a narrow policy to suppose that this country or
that is to be marked out as the eternal ally or the perpetual enemy of
England. We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our
interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to
follow."
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
> "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedr...@gmail.com> ???????/???????? ?
Britain was, through all of this time, a democracy. It even left a
legacy in its colonies that not a few find valuable. Hence -- English
in India, etc. With all of its faults -- and they're grievous --
Britain had something to offer the world. Russia? Forgive me for being
rude, but maybe you should read more Chaadayev. Magna Carta, ahoy!
Latvians looked to Russia for quite some time -- c. 1850-1890, let's
say. When Karlamov comes forth with pure shit like he did re literacy,
I can only shake my head. In essence -- we would love to love you...
but nobody's that stupid, _enfin_.
You can't bring "culture" to countries far more cultured than yours,
sorry.
This has nothing to do with any sort of let's call it "hatred shit."
Many -- very many -- Russians are exceedingly cultured, and we know
that well. That's just great! That's why the best country for Russians
is Latvia -- not Russia.
Politically and culturally, most educated Russians here want to be
European. Very few want much to do with your backward so-called
"Eurasia."
This can be pretty pardoxical and rather ironical.
Vsego khoroshego,
/P
vello
> "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedr...@gmail.com> ???????/???????? ?
> ???????? ?????????:news:a9f7fb5e-ae1d-4f29...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> As so often, I completely agree with John. Russia's friends are
> primarily people Russia has bought,
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Sometimes Russia bought her friends, friends like Bulgarians bought with
> Russian blood at Shipka mountain.
> Like Georgians, licking boots of Russian Tzar being in blank terror of
> Turks.
> And were are those friends?
> Bulgarians two times fight against Russia - in WWI and WWII
> Georgians licks boot of American president now.
Well russian "friendship offer" to Georgia includes finishing with
Georgian state and making it part of Russia. Do you really call it
friendship?
Georgia wants to join free world not for some evil reason but simply
as free world is better place to live. Being georgian, do you
personally really would prefer CIS over EU?
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
There's really no reason to get into this. Russians equate power with
brute force, much of the time. Most halfway civilized people are not
that stupid. It's like the National Bolsheviks when I interviewed them
-- Stalin made Russia great, everybody respected us. My wife -- nobody
ever respected you; fear and respect are not the same. It's pretty
impossible to get that into certain heads.
/P
daniloff
"Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> ???????/???????? ?
???????? ?????????:
news:98a22724-2001-4da7...@22g2000yqr.googlegroups.com...
Why are you singing songs I have not ordered?
We was talking about friends and enemies of Russia. Wasn't we?
Why do you consider I want be a kulturtrager for you?
I know you dislike Russia and I take it easy.
I understand you are little nation and you need dislike somebody from time
to time.
You disliked cultured Germans first then you dislike cultured Russians
tomorrow you will dislike Germans again.
There is Russian saying - Muzhik was angry at barin but barin did not even
know about that
It is amusing but you are looking like lackey bragging of culture of his new
boss, sorry :-)
However, different strokes for different folks or des gouts et des coulers
il ne faut pas disputer noting else.
>
> This has nothing to do with any sort of let's call it "hatred shit."
> Many -- very many -- Russians are exceedingly cultured, and we know
> that well. That's just great! That's why the best country for Russians
> is Latvia -- not Russia.
>
> Politically and culturally, most educated Russians here want to be
> European. Very few want much to do with your backward so-called
> "Eurasia."
>
It is very amusing to read words "your backward so-called "Eurasia." full
of "hatred chauvinistic shit." from person that ticket those "hatred",
"chauvinistic" around on another persons.
> This can be pretty pardoxical and rather ironical.
>
> Vsego khoroshego,
> /P
>
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
daniloff
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:6f6e9d6d-197e-43cd...@a15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 5, 5:28 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
> "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedr...@gmail.com> ???????/???????? ?
> ????????
> ?????????:news:a9f7fb5e-ae1d-4f29...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> As so often, I completely agree with John. Russia's friends are
> primarily people Russia has bought,
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Sometimes Russia bought her friends, friends like Bulgarians bought with
> Russian blood at Shipka mountain.
> Like Georgians, licking boots of Russian Tzar being in blank terror of
> Turks.
> And were are those friends?
> Bulgarians two times fight against Russia - in WWI and WWII
> Georgians licks boot of American president now.
Well russian "friendship offer" to Georgia includes finishing with
Georgian state and making it part of Russia. Do you really call it
friendship?
________________________________________________
Being apostle of right of nations to self-determination for your country you
deny that right for Ossetia and Abkhazia why?
Isn't it notorious double standard?
Georgia wants to join free world not for some evil reason but simply
as free world is better place to live. Being georgian, do you
personally really would prefer CIS over EU?
_____________________________________________________
Free world, free world, bla bla bla.
Who allows them to get to that notorious free world
Georgians already made their choice.
Most of them prefered Moscow.
Even vory v zakone
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
[snip]
> You disliked cultured Germans first then you dislike cultured Russians
> tomorrow you will dislike Germans again.
> There is Russian saying - Muzhik was angry at barin but barin did not even
> know about that
> It is amusing but you are looking like lackey bragging of culture of his new
> boss, sorry :-)
> However, different strokes for different folks or des gouts et des coulers
> il ne faut pas disputer noting else.
Nah, sorry. I'm not as prone to confusing individuals, nations, and
empires as you are, I guess. Next month I start teaching at what is
essentially a Russian university. I think cultured Russians are great!
Dunno any cultured person who ever disliked cultured Germans or
cultured Russians or even a cultured anybody -- as I've always said,
Russian culture is not our enemy; the Soviet lack of culture is. It's
very sad to me that some people can't tell the difference.
As to the muzhik -- yeah, I'm a muzhik. Most Latvians are. Muzhiki
who, contrary to Karlamov's belief, learned to read and write in our
language in the 1700s, when most Russians were as Dostoevsky described
them -- rather dark. I'm quite proud of being a Lettish muzhik. I have
no need to look to a murdered aristocracy or a brutal totalitarian
power to justify my existence in dubious or ponderous terms. That you
need to clutch at tangled strands of your national complexes is not my
problem -- it's yours. I don't need to lie about history.
Vsego khoroshego,
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
[snip]
> Why are you singing songs I have not ordered?
Your best line yet. Answer: Perhaps because you can't order the songs
anymore, and haven't been able to for a while. You're "Upper Volta
with rockets." I'll sing anything I like. Eventually, even Russians
will -- or is it that they do; see t.A.T.u.; a small triumph for
mankind, but a giant leap for Russkiedom!
Please note that this is soc.culture.baltics -- don't you have a group
of your own?
/P
daniloff
I guessed soc.culture.baltics is concerning baltic subjects only.
I did not suppose it has to do with persons too.
Oh! How it is difficult to deal with national complexes of member of a
little but proud country
Sure you are boss here, sorry.
Stop!
How can you prove you are a member of a little but proud country?
daniloff
On 5 Janv., 20:25, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
[snip]
> You disliked cultured Germans first then you dislike cultured Russians
> tomorrow you will dislike Germans again.
> There is Russian saying - Muzhik was angry at barin but barin did not even
> know about that
> It is amusing but you are looking like lackey bragging of culture of his
> new
> boss, sorry :-)
> However, different strokes for different folks or des gouts et des coulers
> il ne faut pas disputer noting else.
Nah, sorry. I'm not as prone to confusing individuals, nations, and
empires as you are, I guess. Next month I start teaching at what is
______________________________________
Sure, you are.
essentially a Russian university. I think cultured Russians are great!
Dunno any cultured person who ever disliked cultured Germans or
cultured Russians or even a cultured anybody -- as I've always said,
Russian culture is not our enemy; the Soviet lack of culture is. It's
very sad to me that some people can't tell the difference.
__________________________________________________________________________
But it is sad to me that person positioning himself as cultured see in
Soviet a lack of culture only.
That such a name as Shestakowich for example is not familiar for him.
As to the muzhik -- yeah, I'm a muzhik. Most Latvians are. Muzhiki
who, contrary to Karlamov's belief, learned to read and write in our
language in the 1700s, when most Russians were as Dostoevsky described
them -- rather dark. I'm quite proud of being a Lettish muzhik. I have
no need to look to a murdered aristocracy or a brutal totalitarian
power to justify my existence in dubious or ponderous terms. That you
need to clutch at tangled strands of your national complexes is not my
problem -- it's yours. I don't need to lie about history.
Heigh! In addition to " tangled strands of your national complexes" you have
tangled strands of class struggle complex too ;-)
Tadas Blinda
> On Jan 4, 2:19 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Tadas Blinda" <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> сообщил/сообщила в новостях
> > следующее:news:91ac091e-97c9-4c6a...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 4, 10:36 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 4, 5:02špm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> > > >http://www.lebed.com/2004/art3908.htm
> > > > The first Latvian language textbook was issued in Russian in Riga at
> > > > 1868
>
> > > > --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...@netfront.net ---
>
> > > Don't know about Latvia, but basically in Lutheran contries being
> > > illiterate wa a crime from 1560-1580. I think Russia is not the sole
> > > place where such pieces were written - hathred to neighbours is
> > > "popular" also in some Arab countries - and surely in some other
> > > underdeveloped places. With level of education rising, such hathred
> > > normally disappears.
>
> > Don't count on Russian hatred of Balts and other "breakaways"
> > disappearing any time soon. Russians have been brutes and bullies for
> > centuries, it's in their blood. Individual bullies usually fuss and
> > fume for the rest of their left and never recover from being deprived
> > of their victim. The time-scale for natural bullies is a lot larger.
> > Don't count on the collective attitude of the Russians showing much
> > improvement this century.
>
> > It is interesting to hear a real russophobe :-)
>
> grounds? Any reliable evidence?
Predictably the question is too hard for you. Trying to disprove my
non-russophobic, merely factual, assertion that "Russians have been
brutes and bullies for centuries" is likely trying to deny global
warming.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
<cedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> a motley crew of subpar misfits
> who detest the countries they prosper in, like Karlamov.
>
What a little, vile individual you are, Cedrins. You act like an
underdeveloped 6-year old baby. Take some testosterone.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
He was talking about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Georgievsk
The Treaty of Georgievsk was a bilateral treaty concluded between the
Russian Empire and the east Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti on July
24, 1783. The treaty established Georgia as a protectorate of Russia,
which guaranteed Georgia's territorial integrity and the continuation
of its reigning Bagrationi dynasty in return for prerogatives in the
conduct of Georgian foreign affairs. Georgia abjured any form of
dependence on Persia or another power, and every new Georgian monarch
would require the confirmation and investiture of the Russian tsar.
Under articles I, II, IV, VI and VII of the treaty’s terms, Russia’s
empress became the official and sole suzerain of Kartli-Kakheti’s
rulers, guaranteeing the Georgians’ internal sovereignty and
territorial integrity, and promising to "regard their enemies as Her
enemies" [1]. Each of the Georgian kingdom’s tsars would henceforth be
obliged to swear allegiance to Russia’s emperors, to support Russia in
war, and to have no diplomatic communications with other nations
without Russia’s prior consent.
Given Georgia’s history of invasions from the south, an alliance with
Russia may have been seen as the only way to discourage or resist
Persian and Ottoman aggression, while also establishing a link to
Western Europe.[2] In the past, Georgia’s kings had not only accepted
formal domination by Turkish and Persian emperors, but had
occasionally converted to Islam and sojourned at their capitals. In
the treaty’s preamble and article VIII the bond of Orthodox
Christianity between Georgians and Russians was acknowledged, and
Georgia’s primate, the Catholicos, became Russia’s eighth, permanent
archbishop and a member of Russia’s Holy Synod.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Let me show you a tiny example of what American/Western demagogues
have been saying about Russia, espcially in the 1990s when the wet
dream of destroying the Russian Federation and breaking it up into
small impotent pieces seemed oh so close:
On Jan 5, 9:37 am, Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
<cedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In terms of destroying the murderous,
> autocratic Russian Empire -- well, sorry, but unlike some here at
> s.c.b. I think that's a great thing and still do. Russia was the
> prison house of nations and still is. The sooner your shithouse and
> false "federation" comes down, the better for everybody.
>
Imagine that some Russian expressed his wet dream of seeing the United
States disintegrate; or, say, Lithuania disintegrate. Wouldn't it be
considered a hostile view?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Probably because Russia is not as blessed as, say, Czechoslovakia,
which had all of its true friends come to its rescue in 1938 and
prevent the Nazi takeover of Czechoslovakia. Nor as blessed as the
Baltic states that had all their true friends come to their rescue in
1940 and again in 2009 during the economic meltdown, when $trillions
of American and EU dollars were selflessly donated.
You learn who your true friends are when you need help.
On Dec 13 2009, 4:15 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@nospamgmail.com>
wrote:
>
> It took quite a time for the picture to crystallize in my brain: the
> global crisis helped. Baltics today is a beloved child of yellow press
> morons - "Failed Economies of failed EE states of EU".
>
> I am angry with Russia (happy now?) - doesn't matter there is such
> animosity between us - Baltics are next door neighbors, weak and poor,
> Russia should have helped. It has a lot of cash.
>
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> сообщил/сообщила
http://www.lebed.com/2004/art3908.htm
>
Finally. Well, it looks like a very sarcastic article. And he seems to
be very Alemano(Germano)-centric.
But I wonder which of the numerous facts about Latvia that he lists in
this article are correct and which - not correct or exaggerated. Maybe
Dmitry can take a look and tell us his view on the facts.
Anton
>
> "Anton" <anton....@gmail.com> сообщил/сообщила в новостях следующее:
> news:hhvfmd$863$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> daniloff wrote:
>>
>>> "vello" <vell...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
>>
>>>>> ??? (???????) ??? ????? ????????, ??? ?? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????
>>
>>>> I tried all cyrillic variants on my computer but anyway I see only
>>>> meaningless lines of latin letters. What encoding you use? Or may you
>>>> put just liks - would be interesting to read what he says about
>>>> estonians :-) Is he a son of famous nazi-man?
>>
>>> My coding was charset="koi8-r"
>>
>> ...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I have told
>> everybody here several times, that the problem is Google Groups: it is
>> broken, out of order, kaputt, неисправный. Period.
>>
>> I don't mean to be impolite, but if you use Google and this is a problem
>> to you, then a) fix it (change to something that is known to work) or b)
>> suffer in silence (-> don't bother others with a problem that is in
>> "your end" that only you yourself can fix).
>>
>> (Sorry, but this is like the 5th time this topic was brought up.)
>> Regards,
>>
>> --
>> Anton, "the IT-guy"
>
> In what coding I need to write to be eaten by Google Groups?
You could try UTF-8. Last time I checked the problem was that Google
guesses the coding by parsing the body of the message, and it gets
confused if it encounters both latin and cyrillic. That of course is the
wrong way to do it. It should parse the "Content-Type" and
"Content-Transfer-Encoding" headers - like normal newsgroup readers do
(even Microsoft's ;)
UTF-8 covers all character types: latin, cyrillic, chinese, arabian etc,
so in an ideal world where things are done properly Google *should* be
able to handle multiple scripts. Koi-8, iirc, also supports latin
letters, so Google *should* be able to display that as well.
Lately Google has had problems displaying even nordic umlauts as 'åäö'.
They aren't losing money because of these defects, so likely it is at
the very bottom of their "to do" list, I'm afraid :(
--
Anton
J. Anderson
"Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9ac06b31-b56c-4487...@m26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> It's like the National Bolsheviks when I interviewed
> them -- Stalin made Russia great, everybody respected
> us. My wife -- nobody ever respected you; fear and
> respect are not the same. It's pretty impossible
> to get that into certain heads.
Many Russians long for the 'respect' of others. Now, for most of us it is
obvious that respect is something that you have to earn through your own
deeds. But I sometimes wonder if this is a semantic issue. According to my
Oxford Dictionary and Thesaurus (1995), 'respect' as a noun means:
1) 'deferential esteem felt or shown towards a person or quality'
2 a) 'heed or regard'
2 b) 'attention to or consideration of'
3) 'an aspect, detail, particular, etc.'
4) 'reference, relation'
5) (in plural) 'a person's polite messages or attentions'
As we see, not a word about 'fear'. Could it be, however, that in Russian
'respect' mainly is associated with fear? What is it that the Russians
really want others to feel: 'uvazhenie' or 'strakh'? Because if it is
'strakh' (fear), it might be some sort of 'Eurasian' heritage from the good
old days of Dzhingis Khan.
daniloff
"J. Anderson" <ander...@inbox.lv> О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫/О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫:
Unfortunately it was Balts that teach Russian to associate respect with
fear.
When Balts felt fear towards Russians and strong hand of them they showed
respect for them then:
1) 'deferential esteem felt or shown towards a person or quality'
2 a) 'heed or regard'
2 b) 'attention to or consideration of'
3) 'an aspect, detail, particular, etc.'
4) 'reference, relation'
5) (in plural) 'a person's polite messages or attentions'
When fear had desappered Balts show boorish arrogance now.
Let this be a lesson to all - Do not trust to little but proud nations.
They are too small to tell truth.
daniloff
"Tadas Blinda" <tadas....@lycos.es> сообщил/сообщила в новостях
следующее:
news:4aa32858-35f7-420d...@j14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
____________________________________________________________
You have convinced me you are not russopobe.
I guess with your assertment you are trying to show me you are russophile.
You are our Russian Chaadajev :-)
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
daniloff
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> сообщил/сообщила
в новостях следующее: news:ab6d0aef-6c92-
> http://www.lebed.com/2004/art3908.htm
>>
>
> Finally. Well, it looks like a very sarcastic article. And he seems to
> be very Alemano(Germano)-centric.
I think he is.
But that is in the back of clever West German mind comes to be at the tip of
Russian German's tongue.
>
> But I wonder which of the numerous facts about Latvia that he lists in
> this article are correct and which - not correct or exaggerated. Maybe
> Dmitry can take a look and tell us his view on the facts.
>
>
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
vello
> "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> ÓÏÏÂÝÉÌ/ÓÏÏÂÝÉÌÁ × ÎÏ×ÏÓÔÑÈ ÓÌÅÄÕÀÝÅÅ:news:bq%0n.60594$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
vello
>
so this time they were forced to agree with dominiation of Russian
emperor. nil novum sub sole. It was maybe softer then Turkish or
Persian one - but what they really want, was independence of Georgia.
daniloff
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> �������/�������� � �������� ���������:
news:53f66c53-2e82-4b23-b2ca-> Given Georgia�s history of invasions from the
south, an alliance with
so this time they were forced to agree with dominiation of Russian
emperor. nil novum sub sole. It was maybe softer then Turkish or
__________________________________________________________________________
Nil novem, sure It is that Alexander III wrote - "others would abandon us at
the first opportunity.'
Persian one - but what they really want, was independence of Georgia.
__________________________________________________________________________
"They" could not want be independent.
There was not such a conception as Georgia, nation, independence of Georgia
at those times.
Independent might be only sovereign and that but weak.
Weak always was some feodal lord's vassal .
The only "they" could want was to be ruled by coreligionist.
daniloff
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:b95dabf3-3492-478f...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
But just by you: what's the truth? What shows our arrogance?
___________________________________________________________
You are an intelligent person so you can find out such illustrations by
yourself
J. Anderson
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> wrote in message
news:b95dabf3-3492-478f...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Of course the mere idea that you've stopped being frightened is absolutely
intolerable to the bully. It's the same with individuals or even some
animals. The bully's self-esteem depends entirely on being feared by others.
I once had a boss who was like that. He was bullying everybody, and
everybody fawned on him, which made him despise them deeply. Then when I
showed him that I didn't take his bullying very seriously, he promoted me!
As to the truth, it's only the small nations who can tell the truth. The big
ones are too self-occupied.
Trust no one with more than 20 million inhabitants!
vello
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:news:b95dabf3-3492-478f...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>
> But just by you: what's the truth? What shows our arrogance?
> ___________________________________________________________
> You are an intelligent person so you can find out such illustrations by
> yourself
>
yet. Anyone seems to have their own truth :-) That's why ask about
your personal opinion: what we are doing wrong? What might to be done
to get better results?
vello
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ñîîáùèë/ñîîáùèëà â íîâîñòÿõ ñëåäóþùåå:
> news:53f66c53-2e82-4b23-b2ca-> Given Georgia’s history of invasions from the
> south, an alliance with
>
> so this time they were forced to agree with dominiation of Russian
> emperor. nil novum sub sole. It was maybe softer then Turkish or
> __________________________________________________________________________
> Nil novem, sure It is that Alexander III wrote - "others would abandon us at
> the first opportunity.'
>
> Persian one - but what they really want, was independence of Georgia.
> __________________________________________________________________________
> "They" could not want be independent.
> There was not such a conception as Georgia, nation, independence of Georgia
> at those times.
> Independent might be only sovereign and that but weak.
> Weak always was some feodal lord's vassal .
> The only "they" could want was to be ruled by coreligionist.
>
hitler :-)! Georgia was independent state before coming of russians:
Quote from wiki:
In 1783, Russia and the eastern Georgian Kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti
signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartli-Kakheti
received protection by Russia. Despite Russia's commitment to defend
Georgia, it rendered no assistance when the Turks and Persians invaded
in 1785 and again in 1795 completely devastated Tbilisi and massacred
its inhabitants. This period culminated in the 1801 Russian violation
of Treaty of Georgievsk and annexation of entire Georgian lands,
followed the deposing of the Bagrationi dynasty and suppression of the
Georgian church.
So much about Russian "friendship".
Think sometimes why countries like Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Iceland
live happily in Europe without being "vassals" of any regional macho-
man. Fate of future of Europe was in hands of countries like Ireland
and Czechia recently - despite France and Germany have full military
potential to made mentioned countries into their "vassals".
Civilization is clever piece of machinery, it works in europe, it
works FOR europe. Sad there are too little people in Russia who
understand this.
vello
Karla, go and read world newspapers from 1991-1995. You don't fingd
ideas about "killing" Russia there but enormous load of hopes that
Russia will turn into friendly, civilized, democratic state. Sad it
not happens.
daniloff
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:bcc270d2-36fa-4d3b...@m25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
_____________________________________________________________
You may to google for example with words Vodka, Vobla and chastushki.
http://www.compromat.ru/page_16175.htm
What might to be done to get better results?
_____________________________________
IMHO It needs time and the will of God :-)
Tadas Blinda
> "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> ÓÏÏÂÝÉÌ/ÓÏÏÂÝÉÌÁ × ÎÏ×ÏÓÔÑÈ ÓÌÅÄÕÀÝÅÅ:news:bq%0n.60594$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Ho, ho, ho. That's rich, that is. What sort of "boorish arrogance"
did you have in mind? Not making Russian a second national language?
Making Russians get visas to visit the Baltic States? Joining EU and
NATO? Oh yes, how impudent of them ...
vello
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> сообщил/сообщила
There are a lot of correct facts - but they are used in arrogant way.
This way one may write "History of Russia" using about ten facts
(correct facts!): behaviour of Ivan Grozny, Maljuta Skuratov, slavery,
illiteracy, "Bloody sunday", shooting of Decabrists, Finnish Winter
War, Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, killing of Chechens. All chose "facts"
are correct, but history of one country, no matter Russia or Latvia
can't be build on subjectively selected negative "facts". He is angry
that Latvia was "selected to be European, but Russia not". Very
primitive attitude
btw, for me it was funny how he glorifies Rüdiger von der Goltz.
Differently from other german, Koch, v der Golz was a gentleman. He
got severely beaten by Estonian army back then - and being a
gentleman, in his memoirs he values Estonian military extremely high.
Day our troops defeted v der Goltz near Wenden (Cesis) is a Victory
Day for Estonia till today.
Tadas Blinda
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
Indeed, out of the humorous comes the serious ... People have been
brainwashed into thinking that big is wonderful (Russia, China,
Canada, USA, Australia, Brazil ...) In all those places they are
horrifies that one of the component parts might "break away". They
say snidely that if that starts happening we will end up with 500
countries in the world. I say – so what? 21st century Europe is a
splendid example that a few dozen countries can indeed share a
continent peacefully without bullying. But it will be a long time
(if ever) that other continents reach the EU level of civilisation.
White Power
<29148bbf-0efc-4d31...@34g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, vello
<vell...@hot.ee> wrote:
<deletions>
> Karla, go and read world newspapers from 1991-1995. You don't fingd
> ideas about "killing" Russia there but enormous load of hopes that
> Russia will turn into friendly, civilized, democratic state. Sad it
> not happens.
Think relatively. The Russia of today is far friendlier, more civilized,
and more democratic in a sense, than it was back then during the
tumultuous first post-Soviet years. It is also far more prosperous, the
underpinning for the three.
Nobody checks your reading matter at the border coming in or going out,
and Russians can, and do, travel abroad, comparing their own country with
others. Becoming more civilized is not something that happens over night,
it requires a few generations and loads of input. Russia, which nowadays
frankly admits its faults and, unlike the mendacious USSR, concedes that
it still has a long way to go before being a utopia for its population,
is, warts and all, nevertheless on the right track. Note that despite its
huge size, Russia has not made serious pretentions to being anything more
than a regional power to be reckoned with, even if it has, as it should,
opportunistically and, one might say, Darwinistically, poked real or
perceived weak spots in the current international system. Vsyakaya nachala
� trudna.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
vello
> In article
> <29148bbf-0efc-4d31-87e0-0587f709b...@34g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, vello
>
> <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> <deletions>
>
> > Karla, go and read world newspapers from 1991-1995. You don't fingd
> > ideas about "killing" Russia there but enormous load of hopes that
> > Russia will turn into friendly, civilized, democratic state. Sad it
> > not happens.
>
> Think relatively. The Russia of today is far friendlier, more civilized,
> and more democratic in a sense, than it was back then during the
> tumultuous first post-Soviet years. It is also far more prosperous, the
> underpinning for the three.
You think soviet years - or really 1991-1996? Coz during first post-
Soviet decade Russia was relatively friendly and much more democratic
then today. They had even free media! Messy and poor for sure, and
poorly governed. It was some starting point towards real democracy.
Today's leaders of Russia don't value democracy so hardly we can
describe present time as "building a wy towards democracy" (of course
if you don't think fascism was inevitable etap on way from Weimar
democracy to real, working one).
>
> Nobody checks your reading matter at the border coming in or going out,
> and Russians can, and do, travel abroad, comparing their own country with
> others. Becoming more civilized is not something that happens over night,
> it requires a few generations and loads of input. Russia, which nowadays
> frankly admits its faults and, unlike the mendacious USSR, concedes that
> it still has a long way to go before being a utopia for its population,
> is, warts and all, nevertheless on the right track. Note that despite its
> huge size, Russia has not made serious pretentions to being anything more
> than a regional power to be reckoned with, even if it has, as it should,
> opportunistically and, one might say, Darwinistically, poked real or
> perceived weak spots in the current international system. Vsyakaya nachala
> trudna.
I think you underestimate Russian nation. Bulgarians and
romanians,are practicising democracy, with lot of mistakes but anyway
- why you think Russia needs "generations" to reach level of Bulgaria
or Romania? Greece and Portugal were half-illiterate tyrannies just
some time ago, today they are working democracies. Ukraine, a country
not better/worse then russia but pretty the same, is learning
democracy now, learning very hard (and if looking aside, often funny)
way, but they are LEARNING. for Putin's Russia I can't see nor steps
nor even wish to move towards democracy.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
No. They voluntarily asked the Russian Empress to protect them from
Turks and Persians by becoming their 'sole suzerain". Learn to read.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
No. They voluntarily asked the Russian Empress to protect them from
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Jan 6, 4:18 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ñîîáùèë/ñîîáùèëà â íîâîñòÿõ ñëåäóþùåå:
> > news:53f66c53-2e82-4b23-b2ca-> Given Georgia’s history of invasions from the
> > south, an alliance with
>
> > so this time they were forced to agree with dominiation of Russian
> > emperor. nil novum sub sole. It was maybe softer then Turkish or
> > __________________________________________________________________________
> > Nil novem, sure It is that Alexander III wrote - "others would abandon us at
> > the first opportunity.'
>
> > Persian one - but what they really want, was independence of Georgia.
> > __________________________________________________________________________
> > "They" could not want be independent.
> > There was not such a conception as Georgia, nation, independence of Georgia
> > at those times.
> > Independent might be only sovereign and that but weak.
> > Weak always was some feodal lord's vassal .
> > The only "they" could want was to be ruled by coreligionist.
>
> You are not maneater, Daniloff, so not to pretend to be more nazi then
> hitler :-)! Georgia was independent state
>
No. There was no Georgia then. There were small kingdoms that were no
more related to each other than, say, Estonia and Finland.
Yes, Kartli-Kakheti was independent, just as Hawaii was independent
before it voluntarily joined USA.
before coming of russians:
> Quote from wiki:
> In 1783, Russia and the eastern Georgian Kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti
> signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartli-Kakheti
> received protection by Russia.
>
They agreed to much more than protection. They agreed that from that
moment on, Georgia would be ruled by Russian Emperors.
Yes, later, the Russian Emperors in the 19th century did not behave in
accordance to the 21st century standards and violated some of the
articles of the Treaty of Georgievsk, but all monarchs acted that way
in the 19th century.
Still, according to the findings of the famous Independent
International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia in
October 2009, "to some extent, Georgians were a privileged nation
within the [Russian] Empire".
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Why 1991-1995? Why not, say,1996-99? What did Yeltsin do in 1995 to
justify the West's hostility towards him?
For example, USA's leadership in NATO's Drang Nach Osten (expansion
into East Europe) in mid-1990s not only violated the public promise
made by Bush to Gorbachev, made in return for the disbandonment of the
Warsaw Pact, that USA would never allow such expansion, but also
percipitated Russia's choice of a hardliner like Putin as its new
leader. This was predicted by wise American foreign policy experts at
that time, who warned against this expansion. E.g., read these
prophetic words:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1563
January 31, 1996
Cato Institute Foreign Policy Briefing no. 38
NATO Expansion and the Danger of a Second Cold War
by Stanley Kober
Stanley Kober is a research fellow in foreign policy studies at the
Cato Institute.
Enlarging NATO to include the nations of Central and Eastern Europe
would be an especially unwise step. Enlargement would undermine
Russia's beleaguered democrats, intensify Russian suspicions about
Western intentions, and play into the hands of militaristic elements
that argue that Moscow must restore the Soviet empire to protect
Russia's security.
-------------------------------
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1571
February 11, 1998
Cato Institute Foreign Policy Briefing no. 46
Nato Expansion Flashpoint No. 3: Kaliningrad
by Stanley Kober
Stanley Kober is a research fellow in foreign policy studies at the
Cato Institute.
The decision to expand NATO eastward threatens to create serious
frictions with Russia. An especially worrisome flashpoint is the
Russian enclave of Kaliningrad, which has a border with Poland, one of
the countries invited to join NATO. An even more dangerous situation
will develop if a subsequent round of NATO expansion brings in the
Baltic republics. Kaliningrad would then be separated from the rest of
Russia by a belt of NATO countries. That would create a "mirror image"
of West Berlin during the Cold War--with the thorny problem of
military transit rights and other potential quarrels.
Russian officials are already concerned about secure access to
Kaliningrad. That is one reason among many that there is intense
Russian opposition to NATO membership for the Baltic republics. The
serious possibility of a collision exists, since Clinton
administration officials have given strong indications that those
countries will be invited to join NATO in the near future. The
probable Russian response would be greater reliance on nuclear weapons
(including adoption of a first-use policy) and renunciation of the
Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between
NATO and the Russian Federation. Expansion of the alliance, therefore,
risks provoking a new and even more dangerous version of the Cold
War.
--------------------------
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1204
May 20, 1999
Policy Analysis no. 345
Blunder in the Balkans: The Clinton Administration's Bungled War
against Serbia
by Christopher Layne
The Clinton administration has made one miscalculation after another
in dealing with the Kosovo crisis... Relations with Russia are now at
their worst point since the darkest days of the Cold War. And the
bombing of China's embassy in Belgrade has caused a serious rift in
the Sino-American relationship. NATO's bombing campaign has produced a
humanitarian catastrophe in Kosovo, the rest of Serbia, and
neighboring countries
--------------------------
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1216
October 25, 1999
Policy Analysis no. 357
Faulty Justifications and Ominous Prospects: NATO's "Victory" in
Kosovo
by Christopher Layne
With the withdrawal of Serbian forces from Kosovo, President Clinton
triumphantly proclaimed, "We have achieved a victory." Yet the Clinton
administration's ill-conceived Kosovo policy has habitually failed to
meet its objectives.
The threat of air strikes failed to get Yugoslav strongman Slobodan
Milosevic to sign the Rambouillet peace accord. Once the air strikes
began, the unintended consequences were horrific. Not only did the
bombing trigger a refugee crisis, but U.S.-Russian relations were
driven to a post-Cold War low--a development that makes Europe and the
world more dangerous.
-----------------
Etc.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Jan 6, 3:20 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> сообщил/сообщила
> > в новостях следующее: news:ab6d0aef-6c92-
>
> > >http://www.lebed.com/2004/art3908.htm
>
> > > Finally. Well, it looks like a very sarcastic article. And he seems to
> > > be very Alemano(Germano)-centric.
>
> > I think he is.
> > But that is in the back of clever West German mind comes to be at the tip of
> > Russian German's tongue.
>
> > > But I wonder which of the numerous facts about Latvia that he lists in
> > > this article are correct and which - not correct or exaggerated. Maybe
> > > Dmitry can take a look and tell us his view on the facts.
>
> > --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...@netfront.net ---
>
> There are a lot of correct facts - but they are used in arrogant way.
> This way one may write "History of Russia" using about ten facts
> (correct facts!): behaviour of Ivan Grozny, Maljuta Skuratov, slavery,
> illiteracy, "Bloody sunday", shooting of Decabrists, Finnish Winter
> War, Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, killing of Chechens. All chose "facts"
> are correct, but history of one country, no matter Russia or Latvia
> can't be build on subjectively selected negative "facts". He is angry
> that Latvia was "selected to be European, but Russia not". Very
> primitive attitude
>
No. Learn to read. What Koch is angry with is that Europe considers
Latvians more "european" and "civilised" than Russians and chooses to
side with Latvia against Russia.
vello
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 6, 8:27 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 6, 4:18 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> > > "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ñîîáùèë/ñîîáùèëà â íîâîñòÿõ ñëåäóþùåå:
> > > news:53f66c53-2e82-4b23-b2ca-> Given Georgia’s history of invasions from the
> > > south, an alliance with
>
> > > so this time they were forced to agree with dominiation of Russian
> > > emperor. nil novum sub sole. It was maybe softer then Turkish or
> > > __________________________________________________________________________
> > > Nil novem, sure It is that Alexander III wrote - "others would abandon us at
> > > the first opportunity.'
>
> > > Persian one - but what they really want, was independence of Georgia.
> > > __________________________________________________________________________
> > > "They" could not want be independent.
> > > There was not such a conception as Georgia, nation, independence of Georgia
> > > at those times.
> > > Independent might be only sovereign and that but weak.
> > > Weak always was some feodal lord's vassal .
> > > The only "they" could want was to be ruled by coreligionist.
>
> > You are not maneater, Daniloff, so not to pretend to be more nazi then
> > hitler :-)! Georgia was independent state
>
> No. There was no Georgia then. There were small kingdoms that were no
> more related to each other than, say, Estonia and Finland.
So it makes occupying Estonia and Finland more honorable thing then
occupying one country of size of Finland and Estonia together? Russia
was divided before Mongol invasion - it means by you that mongol yoke
is something never happened?
>
> Yes, Kartli-Kakheti was independent, just as Hawaii was independent
> before it voluntarily joined USA.
How much I know Hawaii never join US voluntarily.
>
> before coming of russians:
>
> > Quote from wiki:
> > In 1783, Russia and the eastern Georgian Kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti
> > signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartli-Kakheti
> > received protection by Russia.
>
> They agreed to much more than protection. They agreed that from that
> moment on, Georgia would be ruled by Russian Emperors.
>
> Yes, later, the Russian Emperors in the 19th century did not behave in
> accordance to the 21st century standards and violated some of the
> articles of the Treaty of Georgievsk, but all monarchs acted that way
> in the 19th century.
I quote what I find in Wiki. I think text of Georgievsk agreement is
available somewhere so we can check is there words about "voluntary
joining with Russia or not.
There was a lot of monarchs in Europe back in 19th century - but most
of them were able to honour their own agreements. There was not too
more wars and occupations in 19th century Europe.
>
> Still, according to the findings of the famous Independent
> International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia in
> October 2009, "to some extent, Georgians were a privileged nation
> within the [Russian] Empire".- Hide quoted text -
>
No relevance. If Papuas will capture your ship, put you into cage and
serve you as rain God - do you feel better for that? What you would
need is freedom.
vello
Learn to think :-) If you are between two predators, you will chose
one who by you will bit less - but hardly we can take that as
"voluntary act"
vello
>
> > Karla, go and read world newspapers from 1991-1995. You don't fingd
> > ideas about "killing" Russia there but enormous load of hopes that
> > Russia will turn into friendly, civilized, democratic state. Sad it
> > not happens.
>
> Why 1991-1995? Why not, say,1996-99? What did Yeltsin do in 1995 to
> justify the West's hostility towards him?
You may take 1991-1999, no difference. I had in mind "post-soviet"
years.
>
> For example, USA's leadership in NATO's Drang Nach Osten (expansion
> into East Europe) in mid-1990s not only violated the public promise
> made by Bush to Gorbachev, made in return for the disbandonment of the
> Warsaw Pact, that USA would never allow such expansion,
Karla, country represented by Gorbachev was disbanded year after those
agreement (btw, there were just words in coffee talk, nothing like
undersigned agreement). But what is more important: even if such
verbal agreement was set, is was as immoral as Munich or Yalta ones.
NO nation had God given right to decide what others will do or not to
do. Joining NATO was choice of independent nations no way tied with
anything Bush & Gorby may agreed.
nice piece of Cold War thinking.
Let's read one from normal world:
Any nation is free to join any alliance on that Earth. Simple? NATO is
exactly as far from Russia as Russia is from NATO. This way taking
Baltics and EE into NATO means also Russia "moving" much closer to
NATO then before.
vello
>
Only very primitive mind may think that there were some arguing about
"Europeanness" of one or other nation in Brussels :-) and hardly EU
chooses to side with Latvia against Russia. They just take Latvia into
EU. What makes mad imperialists wanting to decide what unions Latvia
may join and what not. Primitive. stupid.
J. Anderson
> Joining NATO was choice of independent nations
I can't recall that there was much opposition against Baltic membership
among the NATO nations -- from Norway to Turkey, from Czechia to Canada.
Besides, Russia was no longer the same as ten years earlier. Russia had
again become threatening.
You reap what you sow, as someone said here recently. Why is that so fuc-ing
hard to understand?
daniloff
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> �������/�������� � �������� ���������:
> > > empress became the official and sole suzerain of Kartli-Kakheti�s
> > > rulers, guaranteeing the Georgians� internal sovereignty and
> > > territorial integrity, and promising to "regard their enemies as Her
> > > obliged to swear allegiance to Russia�s emperors, to support Russia in
> > > war, and to have no diplomatic communications with other nations
>
> > > Given Georgia�s history of invasions from the south, an alliance with
> > > Russia may have been seen as the only way to discourage or resist
> > > Persian and Ottoman aggression, while also establishing a link to
> > > formal domination by Turkish and Persian emperors, but had
> > > occasionally converted to Islam and sojourned at their capitals. In
> > > Christianity between Georgians and Russians was acknowledged, and
> > > archbishop and a member of Russia�s Holy Synod.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > so this time they were forced to agree with dominiation of Russian
> > emperor. nil novum sub sole. It was maybe softer then Turkish or
> > Persian one - but what they really want, was independence of Georgia.
>
> No. They voluntarily asked the Russian Empress to protect them from
> Turks and Persians by becoming their 'sole suzerain". Learn to read.
Learn to think :-) If you are between two predators, you will chose
one who by you will bit less - but hardly we can take that as
"voluntary act"
____________________________________________________
What about Bulgarian Shipka and Bulgarian struggle against Russia in wwI and
WWII?
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
daniloff
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:a9ab281f-0dbb-4d14...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 1:51 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 6, 8:30 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > Karla, go and read world newspapers from 1991-1995. You don't fingd
> > ideas about "killing" Russia there but enormous load of hopes that
> > Russia will turn into friendly, civilized, democratic state. Sad it
> > not happens.
>
> Why 1991-1995? Why not, say,1996-99? What did Yeltsin do in 1995 to
> justify the West's hostility towards him?
You may take 1991-1999, no difference. I had in mind "post-soviet"
years.
>
> For example, USA's leadership in NATO's Drang Nach Osten (expansion
> into East Europe) in mid-1990s not only violated the public promise
> made by Bush to Gorbachev, made in return for the disbandonment of the
> Warsaw Pact, that USA would never allow such expansion,
Karla, country represented by Gorbachev was disbanded year after those
agreement (btw, there were just words in coffee talk, nothing like
undersigned agreement). But what is more important: even if such
verbal agreement was set, is was as immoral as Munich or Yalta ones.
NO nation had God given right to decide what others will do or not to
do. Joining NATO was choice of independent nations no way tied with
anything Bush & Gorby may agreed.
______________________________________________________________________
And what your double standard will say about rights of Abkhazians?
Sure they will say Abkhazians are Untermenschen and Abkhazia is Unternation
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
J. Anderson
"daniloff" <mdan...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
news:hi545l$2mo4$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
> What about Bulgarian Shipka
That was the Finnish Guard and Casimir Ehrnrooth, the beloved Finnish
dictator of Bulgaria:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/allkiv/gbul/gfehrnr.htm (in Interlingua but quite
understandable).
Tadas Blinda
> "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
Certainly is more understandable than Esperanto. It's a pity that it
will never be more than a curiosity. Having an international Latin-
based language that has to be learnt by all for international
communication would certainly be fairer than the present de facto
reliance on English. But that's the way it's going to stay, because
those who are advantaged by the present situation will do everything
to keep it that way.
vello
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> / :news:36ba7a14-7aea-4380...@e37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> > > > empress became the official and sole suzerain of Kartli-Kakheti s
> > > > territorial integrity, and promising to "regard their enemies as Her
> > > > obliged to swear allegiance to Russia s emperors, to support Russia in
> > > > war, and to have no diplomatic communications with other nations
>
> > > > Russia may have been seen as the only way to discourage or resist
> > > > Persian and Ottoman aggression, while also establishing a link to
> > > > formal domination by Turkish and Persian emperors, but had
> > > > occasionally converted to Islam and sojourned at their capitals. In
> > > > Christianity between Georgians and Russians was acknowledged, and
> > > > archbishop and a member of Russia s Holy Synod.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > so this time they were forced to agree with dominiation of Russian
> > > emperor. nil novum sub sole. It was maybe softer then Turkish or
> > > Persian one - but what they really want, was independence of Georgia.
>
> > No. They voluntarily asked the Russian Empress to protect them from
> > Turks and Persians by becoming their 'sole suzerain". Learn to read.
>
> Learn to think :-) If you are between two predators, you will chose
> one who by you will bit less - but hardly we can take that as
> "voluntary act"
>
> ____________________________________________________
> What about Bulgarian Shipka and Bulgarian struggle against Russia in wwI and
> WWII?
>
wars but ally in Cold one. btw, by my experience bulgarians value
highly Russian involvement in Shipka days (well, less in Stalin
days :-))
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
First of all, Georgia's size is smaller than "Finland and Estonia
together".
More importantly, yes, if Russia **occupied** Kartli-Kakheti against
its will - that would be a bad act, so typical of European colonialism
of that time period. But that was not the case. Kartli-Kakheti chose
the Russian Emperors as their rulers perfectly voluntarily. Let me
present the same Wiki article which I have posted many times before
and which you have purposefully ignored:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Georgievsk
The Treaty of Georgievsk was a bilateral treaty concluded between the
Russian Empire and the east Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti on July
24, 1783. The treaty established Georgia as a protectorate of Russia,
which guaranteed Georgia's territorial integrity and the continuation
of its reigning Bagrationi dynasty in return for prerogatives in the
conduct of Georgian foreign affairs. Georgia abjured any form of
dependence on Persia or another power, and every new Georgian monarch
would require the confirmation and investiture of the Russian tsar.
Under articles I, II, IV, VI and VII of the treaty’s terms, Russia’s
empress became the official and sole suzerain of Kartli-Kakheti’s
rulers, guaranteeing the Georgians’ internal sovereignty and
territorial integrity, and promising to "regard their enemies as Her
enemies" [1]. Each of the Georgian kingdom’s tsars would henceforth be
obliged to swear allegiance to Russia’s emperors, to support Russia in
war, and to have no diplomatic communications with other nations
without Russia’s prior consent.
Given Georgia’s history of invasions from the south, an alliance with
Russia may have been seen as the only way to discourage or resist
Persian and Ottoman aggression, while also establishing a link to
Western Europe.[2] In the treaty’s preamble and article VIII the bond
of Orthodox Christianity between Georgians and Russians was
acknowledged, and Georgia’s primate, the Catholicos, became Russia’s
eighth, permanent archbishop and a member of Russia’s Holy Synod.
In 1772-73, during the stay of the Russian troops in Georgia during
the Russian-Turkish war of 1768-1774, shortly before their withdrawal,
King Irakli II sent a written submission to Catherine about the
conditions on which he wished to enter under the patronage of Russia.
With this document he sent his son and brother Levan, Catholicos of
Anthony. He asked "to honor us today with such protection, so that
everyone would see that I'm the exact citizen of the Russian state,
and my kingdom is appended to the Russian Empire." The proposal was
rejected.
In late 1782 Irakli II again appealed to Catherine II to take Georgia
under the patronage of Russia. This time, Catherine decided to
acquiesce. In an effort to strengthen the position of Russia in the
Caucasus, Catherine II gave Paul Potemkin broad powers to conclude
this (Georgievsk) treaty with King Irakli.
In the summer of 1805, Russian troops on the Askerani River near Zagam
defeated the Persian army and saved Tbilisi from conquest.
>
> Russia
> was divided before Mongol invasion - it means by you that mongol yoke
> is something never happened?
>
Which parts of Russia were NOT under the Mongol yoke?
>
> > Yes, Kartli-Kakheti was independent, just as Hawaii was independent
> > before it voluntarily joined USA.
>
> How much I know Hawaii never join US voluntarily.
>
OK. But Kartli-Kakheti did join US voluntarily.
> > before coming of russians:
>
> > > Quote from wiki:
> > > In 1783, Russia and the eastern Georgian Kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti
> > > signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartli-Kakheti
> > > received protection by Russia.
>
> > They agreed to much more than protection. They agreed that from that
> > moment on, Georgia would be ruled by Russian Emperors.
>
> > Yes, later, the Russian Emperors in the 19th century did not behave in
> > accordance to the 21st century standards and violated some of the
> > articles of the Treaty of Georgievsk, but all monarchs acted that way
> > in the 19th century.
>
> I quote what I find in Wiki. I think text of Georgievsk agreement is
> available somewhere so we can check is there words about "voluntary
> joining with Russia or not.
>
Gladly:
http://www.westminster.edu/staff/martinre/Treaty.html
Treaty of Georgievsk, 1783
Since ancient times, the All-Russian Empire, on account of its same
faith as the Georgian people, has served as the defense, support and
refuge to the Georgian people against the oppression of their
neighbors. Her Imperial Majesty has satisfactorily shown her
monarchical favor to the Georgian peoples and magnanimous care for
their good by Her strong efforts made for their emancipation from the
yoke of slavery and from abusive tribute of boys and maidens and by
Her Majesty’s continued care for their Rulers. In this very situation,
bowing to a request from the Tsar of Kartli and Kakhetia, Irakli II,
to receive him with all his heirs and successors, and with all his
Kingdoms and Regions in the Monarchical protection of Her Majesty and
of Her Successors, with the recognition of the Supreme power of the
All-Russian Emperors over the Kingdoms of Kartli and Kakhetia, Her
Majesty consented to prepare and conclude a treaty of friendship with
the Tsar, by means of which His Highness, in his own name and [that]
of his Successors, recognizing the Supreme power and protection of Her
Imperial Majesty and of Her Successors over the Rulers and peoples of
the Kingdoms of Karli and Kakhetia and the other Regions which belong
to him, would determine solemnly and precisely his duties with regard
to the All-Russian Empire.
Art. 1. Tsar Irakli of Kartli and Kakhetia, in his name and in that
of his heirs and successors, solemnly declares before the face of all
the world that he and his successors recognize over themselves no
other Authority except the supreme power and protection of the All-
Russian Throne of Her Imperial Majesty and of Her August Heirs and
Successors, promising to said Throne fidelity and readiness to render
aid on behalf of the State.
Art. 2. Her Imperial Majesty, receiving from His Highness this sincere
and solemn promise, equally promises and reassures by means of Her
Imperial word, on her own behalf and on that of her Successors, that
their favor and protection shall never be withdrawn from the Tsars of
Kartli and Kakhetia.
Art 3. As an indication of the sincerity with which His Serene
Highness the Tsar of Kartli and Kakhetia recognizes the supreme power
and protection of the All-Russian Emperors, the aforementioned Tsars,
ascending onto their Throne, are immediately to inform the Russian
Imperial Court about the succession of a new Tsa, requesting Imperial
confirmation of the said succession The new Tsar, is obliged solemnly
to take the oath of fidelity and diligence to the Russian Empire and
to the recognition of the supreme power and protection of the All-
Russian Emperors in the manner described in this treaty.
--------------------
Any more questions?
>
> There was a lot of monarchs in Europe back in 19th century - but most
> of them were able to honour their own agreements.
>
In the 19thy century, European powers always kept all their promises
made to all their colonies and to all their dependent nations?! How
bizarre.
Do I need to waste time and provide counter-examples?
>
> There was not too
> more wars and occupations in 19th century Europe.
>
There were not "too more" wars in Georgia in 19th century; nor were
there any "occupations" of Georgia by Russian troops. Fearing Persians
and Turks, the Georgian masses didn't mind the Russian rule and didn't
revolt.
>
> > Still, according to the findings of the famous Independent
> > International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia in
> > October 2009, "to some extent, Georgians were a privileged nation
> > within the [Russian] Empire".
>
> No relevance. If Papuas will capture your ship, put you into cage and
> serve you as rain God - do you feel better for that?
>
If I beg Papua, Estonia or even Ghana to make me its citizen, and
after voluntarily becoming a citizen, I am treated as a privileged VIP
- then I would have nothing to complain about.
>
> What you would need is freedom.
>
Well, independence is always preferable. But if my giving up Papuan/
Estonian/Ghanan citizen would make me likely to get murdered by Turks
or Persians - I would choose to remain the citizen of Papua/Estonia/
Ghana. Just look at the Genocide that Armenians and other Christians
suffered from Turkey in the 20th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_holocaust
Armenian Genocide
The Armenian Genocide, also known as the Armenian Holocaust, was the
deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian
population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I.[1]
It was characterised by the use of massacres, and the use of
deportations involving forced marches under conditions designed to
lead to the death of the deportees, with the total number of Armenian
deaths generally held to have been between one and one-and-a-half
million.[2][3][4] Other ethnic groups were similarly attacked by the
Empire during this period, including Assyrians and Greeks, and some
scholars consider those events to be part of the same policy of
extermination.[5]
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
From you?!
>
> If you are between two predators, you will chose
> one who by you will bit less - but hardly we can take that as
> "voluntary act"
>
Are you saying that Georgia did not "voluntarily" beg the Russian
Empress to become its ruler?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Georgievsk#Fore-history_and_Aftermath
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> / :news:36ba7a14-7aea-4380...@e37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> > > > empress became the official and sole suzerain of Kartli-Kakheti s
> > > > territorial integrity, and promising to "regard their enemies as Her
> > > > obliged to swear allegiance to Russia s emperors, to support Russia in
> > > > war, and to have no diplomatic communications with other nations
>
> > > > Russia may have been seen as the only way to discourage or resist
> > > > Persian and Ottoman aggression, while also establishing a link to
> > > > formal domination by Turkish and Persian emperors, but had
> > > > occasionally converted to Islam and sojourned at their capitals. In
> > > > Christianity between Georgians and Russians was acknowledged, and
> > > > archbishop and a member of Russia s Holy Synod.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > so this time they were forced to agree with dominiation of Russian
> > > emperor. nil novum sub sole. It was maybe softer then Turkish or
> > > Persian one - but what they really want, was independence of Georgia.
>
> > No. They voluntarily asked the Russian Empress to protect them from
> > Turks and Persians by becoming their 'sole suzerain". Learn to read.
>
> Learn to think :-) If you are between two predators, you will chose
> one who by you will bit less - but hardly we can take that as
> "voluntary act"
>
> ____________________________________________________
> What about Bulgarian Shipka and Bulgarian struggle against Russia in wwI and
> WWII?
>
Look. Today's European Union and USA are much-much wealthier than
Russia. It is thus of great economic benefit to Bulgaria to lick the
buttocks of EU and USA. So why should gratitude stand in the way of
greed?
Plus, in WW2 Bulgaria was a Nazi Germany-controlled fascist state.
Maybe they liked it and resented to Soviet victory over Germany?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
>
> news:hi545l$2mo4$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
>
> > What about Bulgarian Shipka
>
> That was the Finnish Guard and Casimir Ehrnrooth, the beloved Finnish
> understandable).
>
So, Finns played a major role in Imperial Russia?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Jan 7, 1:27 pm, "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
> > "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
>
> >news:hi545l$2mo4$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
>
> > > What about Bulgarian Shipka
>
> > That was the Finnish Guard and Casimir Ehrnrooth, the beloved Finnish
> > understandable).
>
> Certainly is more understandable than Esperanto. It's a pity that it
> will never be more than a curiosity. Having an international Latin-
> based language that has to be learnt by all for international
> communication would certainly be fairer than the present de facto
> reliance on English. But that's the way it's going to stay, because
> those who are advantaged by the present situation will do everything
> to keep it that way.
>
Don't worry. With time, the international Lingua Franca, based on
pidgin Mandarin, will emerge.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Jan 7, 1:51 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 6, 8:30 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > Karla, go and read world newspapers from 1991-1995. You don't fingd
> > > ideas about "killing" Russia there but enormous load of hopes that
> > > Russia will turn into friendly, civilized, democratic state. Sad it
> > > not happens.
>
> > Why 1991-1995? Why not, say,1996-99? What did Yeltsin do in 1995 to
> > justify the West's hostility towards him?
>
> You may take 1991-1999, no difference. I had in mind "post-soviet"
> years.
>
>
>
> > For example, USA's leadership in NATO's Drang Nach Osten (expansion
> > into East Europe) in mid-1990s not only violated the public promise
> > made by Bush to Gorbachev, made in return for the disbandonment of the
> > Warsaw Pact, that USA would never allow such expansion,
>
> Karla, country represented by Gorbachev was disbanded year after those
> agreement
>
So, if Hawaii leaves USA and USA changes its name to the Federal
States of America, Russia will have no obligation to keep its promises
made to USA? How bizarre.
>
> (btw, there were just words in coffee talk, nothing like
> undersigned agreement).
>
It was no "coffee talk". It was an official, although verbal, promise
in the middle of official talks.
>
> But what is more important: even if such
> verbal agreement was set,
>
So, if Russia finds its earlier promises to be "immoral" - it has the
right to unilateral revoke them?
>
> is was as immoral as Munich or Yalta ones.
>
Why is the promise not to accept, say, Czechoslovakia into a useless
military alliance as bad as the promise to allow Nazi Germany to annex
a big chunk of Czechoslovakia?
Many countries, including Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Switzerland and
Austria, are not in NATO and are very happy.
Why was it so vital, life-and-death for Eastern Europe and later
Baltics to join NATO? Are you saying that Yeltsin was like Hitler and
threatened to occupy Czechoslovakia and to start World War 3?
>
> NO nation had God given right to decide what others will do or not to
> do.
>
Of course. As long as their actions don't violate international law or
previous promises.
>
> Joining NATO was choice of independent nations no way tied with
> anything Bush & Gorby may agreed.
>
All countries have a God-given right to ask NATO (or any other
militarist organisation) to accept them. However, USA has the right to
vote agaisnt those requests that contradict USA's previous
committments.
Second, yes, Eastern European countries had a full right to ask to
join NATO. Similarly, Cuba and Nicaragua have a full right to ask
Russia to place nuclear missiles in their countries. However, if
Russia accepted their requests, this would be considered by USA as an
act of war.
>
> NO nation had God given right to decide what others will do or not to
> do.
>
Of course. Any country has a full right to do pretty much anything, as
long as it doesn't violate the international law or previous
agreements, signed by that country. In particular, Baltic countries
and even USA can engage in as much military build-up and anti-Russian
rhetoric as they wish, as long as they don't start physical
hostilities. But here we are talking not about who provoked the new
Cold War. And NATO's Drang Nach Osten was an unfriendly provocative
act towards Russia.
Yes. The distance is a symmetric function: point X is exactly as far
from point Y as point Y is from point X. So what?
>
> Any nation is free to join any alliance on that Earth. Simple?
>
Yes. And any nation (USA in this case) has a right to reject a new
member if it feels that this membership application contradict its
previous commitments and may result in a new Cold War.
Are you saying that USA is obligated to accept any country that
applies for NATO membership?
>
> This way taking
> Baltics and EE into NATO means also Russia "moving" much closer to
> NATO then before.
>
Geographically? Yes, NATO's expansion into Eastern Europe meant that
NATO got geometrically closer to Russia. Just as the Soviet placement
of troops and nukes in Cuba in the 1960s meant that USSR got
geometrically closer to USA. But was that a good thing for USA?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
>
> news:a9ab281f-0dbb-4d14...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Joining NATO was choice of independent nations
>
> I can't recall that there was much opposition against Baltic membership
> among the NATO nations -- from Norway to Turkey, from Czechia to Canada.
> Besides, Russia was no longer the same as ten years earlier. Russia had
> again become threatening.
>
I was talking about NATO's first expansion which started in 1995 and
completed in 1999. Are you saying that in 1995-99, Russia was much
more threatening to Western and Eastern Europe and to North America
than USSR was a decade earlier, in 1985-89?
>
> You reap what you sow, as someone said here recently. Why is that so fuc-ing
> hard to understand?
>
A very good rhetorical question, although the use of obscenities in
this case shows serious mental frustrations.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:news:a9ab281f-0dbb-4d14...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
The West will gladly embrace the rights and wishes of Abkhazians as
soon as Abkhazia becomes "democratic", i.e., promises to hate Russia.
Valtsu
That would be a gross exaggeration, but a few made careers as governors.
Alaska had actually two Finnish governers, Adolf Karlovich Etolin (born
Arvid Adolf Ethol�n) 1845-1847 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Etolin
and Ivan Vasilyevich Furugelm (born Johan Hampus Furuhjel 1859-1864)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Hampus_Furuhjelm
Uzbekistan had also a Finnish-born governer in the latter part of the
19th century, but now I can't find any details.
Then there is, of course, the great explorer, spymaster, general, etc
Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim.
http://www.mannerheim.fi/
valtsu
daniloff
"J. Anderson" <ander...@inbox.lv> О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫/О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫:
news:4Aq1n.61239$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
You mean that it was Finn that liberated Bulgars?
But following your logic you have to admit that it was Finns wich was
supressing Chechens and imam Shamil and it was Finns which was supressing
Polish rebels.
"1856 Casimir Ehrnrooth era promovite a major e commandate como adjutante de
battalion al Regimento de Vorontzov in Caucasia. Ille participava a
battalias furiose contra le czeczenos e lor chef legendari, Szamil, ancora
hodie le hero national de czeczenos. Major Ehrnrooth era nominate le chef de
battalion de tiratores (chassatores) del Regimento de Vorontzov e ille se
excelleva in multe battalias. In 1858 C.E. era ferite al assalto de
fortalessa de Mesken-Duk, un balla penetreva su scapula. Le vulnera le
molestava al minus usque le anno 1875. Le 1859-08-22--09-06 Casimir
Ehrnrooth participava al ultime battalia de Szamil a Gunib, ubi Szamil era
capturate. Ille habeva heroicamente luctate con 7000 viros contra 40 000
soldatos russe, in le ultime battalia ille habeva 400 viros, de quales 350
cadeva. C.E. era promovite a lieutenant colonnello e le imperator donava le
un sabla auree. Post le guerra contra le czeczenos C.E. restava in Dagestan
e in 1860 ille retornava a Finlandia pro recrear se post tres pesante annos
in Caucasia.
1860 perturbationes comenciava de novo in Polonia. 1861 le fratre del
imperator, grande prince Konstantin era nominate como governator de Polonia
e un general finlandese Anders Edvard Ramsay como commandante-in-chef de
truppas in iste pais. General Ramsay habeva subjugate etiam le rebellion de
Polonia in 1831. 1861 Casimir Ehrnrooth era promovite a colonnello e le chef
del stato major del XV division de infanteria (in le armea imperial de
Russia le divisiones era signate con numeros roman e corps de armeas con
numeros latin). 1863 ille era commandate a Radom, Polonia al VII division de
infanteria, commandate per general Uszakov. Immediatemente C.E. debeva
conducer un distachamento contra Czachowski, un de plus talentose
commandante de insurgentes"
Casimir Ehrnrooth was an Russian general, Finn by birth on service of His
Russian Imperator Magesty nothing else.
Sometimes I askmyself if is that Russian Empire an empire of Russkies?
With those German Russian Tzars, Finnish and Georgian generals, Latvias
Strielnikas, Jewish comissars, Latvian CHkists, Georgian dictators and now
with Jewish and Azerbaijan oligarchs? The answer is NO.
Russkies always beared "White Man's Burden" but always was last in turn to
enjoy the fruits of "White Man's Power"
daniloff
"Tadas Blinda" <tadas....@lycos.es> ???????/???????? ? ????????
?????????:
news:4347b51d-dfa9-4ea0...@j5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 1:27 pm, "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> wrote:
> "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
>
> news:hi545l$2mo4$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
>
> > What about Bulgarian Shipka
>
> That was the Finnish Guard and Casimir Ehrnrooth, the beloved Finnish
> dictator of Bulgaria:http://www.kolumbus.fi/allkiv/gbul/gfehrnr.htm(in
> Interlingua but quite
> understandable).
Certainly is more understandable than Esperanto. It's a pity that it
_____________________________________________________________________
Moreover Esperanto is unacceptable politically because of too much Russian
words :-)
will never be more than a curiosity. Having an international Latin-
based language that has to be learnt by all for international
communication would certainly be fairer than the present de facto
reliance on English. But that's the way it's going to stay, because
those who are advantaged by the present situation will do everything
to keep it that way.
_____________________________________
Is that situation becaus of somebodies' evil will?
daniloff
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> ???????/????????
? ???????? ?????????: news:2e7be974-86e3-
The West will gladly embrace the rights and wishes of Abkhazians as
soon as Abkhazia becomes "democratic", i.e., promises to hate Russia.
_____________________________________________________________
Yes, you are right.
However I hoped for Vello's answer.
But it must be an unsolvable paradox for him :-)
daniloff
wars but ally in Cold one. btw, by my experience bulgarians value
highly Russian involvement in Shipka days (well, less in Stalin
days :-))
___________________________________________________________I
t is your answer for statement Russia never have friends made by yourself
daniloff
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> сообщил/сообщила
в новостях следующее:
Look. Today's European Union and USA are much-much wealthier than
Russia. It is thus of great economic benefit to Bulgaria to lick the
buttocks of EU and USA. So why should gratitude stand in the way of
greed?
_________________________________________________________________
Я не могу винить Болгарию за выбор более богатого хозяина.
Все мы люди и ничто человеческое нам не чуждо.
Я только против того чтобы по хамски оплевывать предыдущего старшего брата
сразу же после того, как выбрал себе нового.
Хотя, конечно, это меньше всего относится к болгарам.
И более всего по-видимому отсутствием мудрости, заносчивостью и хамством
страдают прибалты.
Plus, in WW2 Bulgaria was a Nazi Germany-controlled fascist state.
Maybe they liked it and resented to Soviet victory over Germany?
_________________________________________________________________
I guess Bulgarian establishment in contrast to Bulgarian people in XIX and
XX permanently was oriented to German beginning from prince Ferdinand
J. Anderson
> You mean that it was Finn that liberated Bulgars?
> But following your logic you have to admit that it was Finns wich was
> supressing Chechens and imam Shamil and it was Finns which was supressing
> Polish rebels.
Yes, naturally, why should I deny that? I've read somewhere that a total of
200 Finnish generals or admirals served Russia during our 108 years as a
Grand Duchy. Of course they did both good and bad things -- depending on
whose side you're on. In Ehrnrooth's case good for Russia but bad for Shamil
and the Chechens. Or good for the Bulgarians but bad for the Poles.
Since Finland during the period 1809-80 had only an embryonic army of her
own, young Finns with military career ambitions went to serve in Russia.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. wrote:
>
> > On Jan 7, 11:27 am, "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> wrote:
> >> "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
>
> >>news:hi545l$2mo4$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
>
> >>> What about Bulgarian Shipka
> >> That was the Finnish Guard and Casimir Ehrnrooth, the beloved Finnish
> >> understandable).
>
> > So, Finns played a major role in Imperial Russia?
>
> That would be a gross exaggeration, but a few made careers as governors.
>
> Alaska had actually two Finnish governers, Adolf Karlovich Etolin (born
> and Ivan Vasilyevich Furugelm (born Johan Hampus Furuhjel 1859-1864)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Hampus_Furuhjelm
>
> Uzbekistan had also a Finnish-born governer in the latter part of the
> 19th century, but now I can't find any details.
>
> Then there is, of course, the great explorer, spymaster, general, etc
> Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim.http://www.mannerheim.fi/
>
The only White Army General that managed to defeat the Reds/Bolsheviks
twice: in 1918 and in 1940?
vello
> "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> ÓÏÏÂÝÉÌ/ÓÏÏÂÝÉÌÁ × ÎÏ×ÏÓÔÑÈ ÓÌÅÄÕÀÝÅÅ:news:4Aq1n.61239$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
>
>
>
> > "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
> >news:hi545l$2mo4$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
>
> >> What about Bulgarian Shipka
>
> > That was the Finnish Guard and Casimir Ehrnrooth, the beloved Finnish
> > dictator of Bulgaria:
history he was governed by folks thinking only about their own pockets/
glory. So no way anyone being fucked by Russia must be angry on
Russian people - except that they allowed to run their country by
brutal and mercyless leaders.
vello
Buttocks licking is typical Russian (Soviet?) phenomena. As you
remember, future of EU depends just now on decicions made by Irish and
Czech people. Instead of "licking" they made all Europe nervous about
future of EU.
>
> Plus, in WW2 Bulgaria was a Nazi Germany-controlled fascist state.
> Maybe they liked it and resented to Soviet victory over Germany?-
It depends who were more harsh on bulgarians.
vello
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> сообщил/сообщила
> в новостях следующее:
>
> Look. Today's European Union and USA are much-much wealthier than
> Russia. It is thus of great economic benefit to Bulgaria to lick the
> buttocks of EU and USA. So why should gratitude stand in the way of
> greed?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Я не могу винить Болгарию за выбор более богатого хозяина.
> Все мы люди и ничто человеческое нам не чуждо.
> Я только против того чтобы по хамски оплевывать предыдущего старшего брата
> сразу же после того, как выбрал себе нового.
Popytaisja ponimat, chto v Evrope net starshyh i mladshih bratjev. EU
sozdana chtob vsem bylo lutche - i jesli ktoto dumajet chto EU ne
rabotajet dlja nih, oni mogut vyiti ljubuju minutu. Ty mozhesh
predstavit chto naprimer Francia nazavjet sebja "starshim bratom"
Belgii ili Estonii? Smeshno dazhe dumat?
> Хотя, конечно, это меньше всего относится к болгарам.
> И более всего по-видимому отсутствием мудрости, заносчивостью и хамством
> страдают прибалты.
>
> Plus, in WW2 Bulgaria was a Nazi Germany-controlled fascist state.
> Maybe they liked it and resented to Soviet victory over Germany?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> I guess Bulgarian establishment in contrast to Bulgarian people in XIX and
> XX permanently was oriented to German beginning from prince Ferdinand
>
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...@netfront.net ---
vello
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 6:54 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
Learn to read.
>
> > Learn to think :-)
>
> From you?!
Or from any other, capable to think.
>
>
>
> > If you are between two predators, you will chose
> > one who by you will bit less - but hardly we can take that as
> > "voluntary act"
>
> Are you saying that Georgia did not "voluntarily" beg the Russian
> Empress to become its ruler?
And Hacha "voluntarily" give his country to Nazis.
What Georgia did was choice between bad and worse. I think no nation
in human history had voluntarily preferred slavery to independence.