Resolving the Bronze Soldier conflict
Eugene Holman
<quote>
Estonia to relocate Red Army statue
Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:00PM BST
TALLINN (Reuters) - Estonia is to set up a Red Army monument in a military
cemetery in time for the anniversary of the end of World War Two after its
removal from the centre of the capital sparked riots, officials said on
Sunday.
The government decided to move the monument to avoid demonstrations linked
to the anniversary on May 9, but had not originally planned to re-site it
until the end of May.
But after the protests which erupted on Thursday, in which one man died,
the government moved fast on Friday to remove the monument.
"I hope we will have the monument installed at the military cemetery by
May 8," Estonian Defence Minister Jaak Aviksoo told a news conference.
May 9 marks victory in Europe over Nazi Germany and sometimes provokes
tensions between Russian-speakers and ethnic Estonians.
Russia called moving the monument, a 2-metre (6-1/2 ft) high bronze statue
of a Red Army soldier, an insult to those who fought fascism.
Many Russian-speakers, about 300,000 out of 1.3 million people, view the
statue with fondness, while ethnic Estonians see it as a reminder of 50
years of Soviet rule.
Around 1,000 people were detained in the violence, mainly by
Russian-speaking youths, though only 46 remain in custody.
No protests over the removal of the monument came on Saturday in the
capital, Tallinn, though some clashes occurred in mainly Russian-speaking
northeast Estonia.
</quote>
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
I really do wish that the statue of Alyosha were set up facing a
statue of an Estonian freedom fighter, with perhaps a memorial
to the victims of the soviet occupation such as those sent to perish
in the siberian prison camps behind the freedom fighter.
victims freedom fighter --> <= Alyosha
--
Rostyk
vkar...@yahoo.com
wrote:
You mean the Nazi SS men? There are already lots of monuments to the
Nazi SS men in Estonia, although they stilll haven't erected the
monument to the greatest Estonian "freedom fighter": Adolph Hitler,
the biggest anti-Stalinist of all time.
How about erecting a few monuments to Hitler, Peteris and Rostyk? Say,
in the Salaspils "summer" death camp? Facing the monument of 50,000 or
so Salaspils victims?
>
> with perhaps a memorial
> to the victims of the soviet occupation such as those sent to perish
> in the siberian prison camps behind the freedom fighter.
>
How about putting up monuments to people, most responsible for Estonia
getting independence in 1991? The names of Andrei Sakhraov, Yeltsin,
Kravchuk and Shushkevich come to mind.
>
> victims freedom fighter --> <= Alyosha
>
Alyosha is standing in Bulgaria, as a symbol of Russia's liberation of
Bulgaria from its fascist regime. There are also numerous monuments to
Russian generals and soldiers, who liberated Bulgaria and other
Christian Balkan countries in the 19th century from the multi-century
Muslim Turk occupation, defeating Turk and British anti-Christian
degenerates.
The displaced Monument in Tallinn was created by 2 Estonian sculptors
and used an Estonian man as the model. It has nothing to do with
Alyosha.
Are you proposing to move Alyosha from Bulgaria to Estonia, genius?
Markku Grönroos
<vkar...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:1177998476.7...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> You mean the Nazi SS men? There are already lots of monuments to the
> Nazi SS men in Estonia, although they stilll haven't erected the
> monument to the greatest Estonian "freedom fighter": Adolph Hitler,
> the biggest anti-Stalinist of all time.
>
vkar...@yahoo.com
> <vkarla...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
> viestissä:1177998476.728090.120...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > You mean the Nazi SS men? There are already lots of monuments to the
> > Nazi SS men in Estonia, although they stilll haven't erected the
> > monument to the greatest Estonian "freedom fighter": Adolph Hitler,
> > the biggest anti-Stalinist of all time.
>
> Can you oddball tell us why this sudden interest on statues?
>
Elections are upcoming in both Estonia and Russia.
Markku Grönroos
<vkar...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:1178000504.9...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
_________________________________________________
Parliament and hence the cabinet are brand new in Estonia..... Any other
reason (aside your shaky mental health, of course)?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
mean what he writes. It's his theory of plausible deniability. :)
and random ramblings. :)
Jukka O. Kauppinen
>>I really do wish that the statue of Alyosha were set up facing a
>>statue of an Estonian freedom fighter,
> How about erecting a few monuments to Hitler, Peteris and Rostyk?
A very fitting monument would be monument of Hitler hugging Stalin,
called "the best buddies", honoring the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of 1939,
when Hitler and Stalin drew lines on maps and decided to give Estonia
and rest of the Baltics to Soviet rule?
That statue would rightly remind many of how these two dictators
cooperated nicely with each other when needed.
lora...@cs.com
Hand in hand.. skipping through a field of bronze flowers.. and
littered bodies.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Touche! A wonderful idea!
I'm surprised that no one has previously made the suggestion.
Perhaps we should start a campaign to commision such a statue.
Perhaps several different statues on the same theme.
Or a sculptors contest?
I'm certain that a prize purse would be eagerly contributed to
by various organizations and even governments!
Any other proposals? e.g. S & H holding a knife and cutting
into a map of europe as if into a cake.
--
Rostyk
raff
Look how Karlamow shut up :-)
R.
raff
I'd propose a monument of two soldiers shaking hands over the map
somewhere in the middle of the Poland in 1939 - one soldier Soviet and
second German. I have somewhere a photo of that nice meeting.
R.
raff
>> Or a sculptors contest?
>> I'm certain that a prize purse would be eagerly contributed to
>> by various organizations and even governments!
>>
>> Any other proposals? e.g. S & H holding a knife and cutting
>> into a map of europe as if into a cake.
>
> I'd propose a monument of two soldiers shaking hands over the map
> somewhere in the middle of the Poland in 1939 - one soldier Soviet and
> second German. I have somewhere a photo of that nice meeting.
>
http://tinyurl.com/yskmwl
Isn't that sweet ? Common army parade in front of Heinz Guderian and
Siemion Kriwoszein - 1939. Don't they look like enemies ?
"Faszizm nie prejdiot!"
R.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> >>statue of an Estonian freedom fighter,
> > How about erecting a few monuments to Hitler, Peteris and Rostyk?
>
> A very fitting monument would be monument of Hitler hugging Stalin,
> called "the best buddies", honoring the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of 1939,
> when Hitler and Stalin drew lines on maps and decided to give Estonia
> and rest of the Baltics to Soviet rule?
>
An even more fitting monument would be that of the American, British
and French leaders kissing Hitler right below the waist from both the
front and the behind, and handing him a pile of dead bodies of Spanish
and Czech civilians, don’t you think?
>
> That statue would rightly remind many of how these two dictators
> cooperated nicely with each other when needed.
>
What you are conveniently forgetting is that long before Stalin and
Hitler signed their Pact, Hitler had signed a similar but much more
sinister Friendship Pact with the leaders of Britain and France, known
in Central Europe as "Munich Betrayal". It was signed in Munich,
Germany on September 29, 1938, promising eternal friendship between
the brotherly people of Britain and Nazi Germany. As a proof their
love for their Nazi best friends, Britain (and France) gave
Czechoslovakia to Hitler to rape, as a small token of their
friendship, love and admiration for the Nazi Fuhrer.
These actions left no choice for Stalin but to try to avoid or delay
the Nazi invasion of USSR by negotiating the 1939 Non-Aggression Pact
with Hitler. To use my favourite Russian expression: “If you live
among wolves – you have to howl like a wolf”.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://www.maebrussell.com/The%20War/The%20War%20-%20notes.html
At the Munich talks it was agreed that Germany could have 1/3 of
Czechoslovakia and 1/3 of the population. The German army would move
in October 1. Great Britain and Germany signed a treaty of friendship.
///////////////////////////////////////
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_betrayal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal
In 1935, the Soviets signed treaties of alliance with France and
Czechoslovakia. The Soviet-Czechoslovak treaty committed the Soviets
to come to the aid of Czechoslovakia if attacked by a neighbor
provided France did first.
The term Western betrayal was coined after the Munich Conference
(1938) when Czechoslovakia was forced to cede part of its area
(Sudetenland) to Germany. Czech politicians joined the newspapers in
regularly using the term and it, along with the associated feelings,
became a stereotype among Czechs. The Czech terms Mnichov (Munich),
Mnichovská zrada (Munich betrayal) and zrada spojenců (betrayal of the
allies) were coined at the same time and have the same meaning.
During the post-war 1946 parliamentary campaign, the Communist Party
of Czechoslovakia argued (with much success) that the historical
unreliability of Western allies must be countered by closer relations
with the Soviet Union.
Spain
A similar feeling occurred among the supporters of the Second Spanish
Republic. During the Spanish Civil War, the democratic countries had
taken to neutrality instead of supporting the democratically-elected
republic against the rebels supported by Nazi Germany and Fascist
Italy. Only the Soviet Union offered military help to the Republic.
/////////////////////////////////////
http://www.maebrussell.com/The%20War/The%20War%20-%20notes.html
The Spanish Civil War, 1936 - 1939
The oppostion to Fascism in Spain was the Popular Front.
The Popular Front consisted of middle-class liberals, Radical
Republicans, Socialists, Syndicalists, and Communists. Opposed to the
Popular Front were monarchists, clericals, Conservative Republicans,
and Fascists. In the 1936 general elections they obtained 260 seats in
the Cortes, the opposition 213 seats.
July 17, 1936: Franco led a revolt, most generals and their men went
along, but the navy and air force remaind loyal to the government.
Hitler and Mussolini aided Franco. The papacy gave its spiritual
support to Franco. When Italian troops left Italian soil for Spain,
they received the papal blessing.
As early as November 1936, Soviet Russia sent technicians and matériel
into Spain to help fight the Fascists. Communists trained in Moscow to
fight in Spain included Tito of Yugoslavia and Dimitrov of Bulgeria.
>From all over the world sympathizers with the Spanish Republic sent
brigades to fight in Spain. The "Abraham Lincoln Brigade" recruited in
the U.S. Author George Orwell went to Spain to fight.
Officially France, Great Britain, and the U.S. remained neutral on the
Spanish civil war.
Thanks to German and Italian support, Franco established a
totalitarian dictatorship in Spain. After 8 years, the Spanish
Republic was no more. A million people killed, bitterness, poverty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica
Bombing of Guernica
The bombing of Guernica was an aerial attack on April 26, 1937, during
the Spanish Civil War by planes of the German Luftwaffe "Condor
Legion" and subordinate Italian Fascists. The raid resulted in
widespread destruction and civilian death in the Republican held town
of Guernica, Basque Country. The Basque government figures released at
the time put the toll at a minimum of 1,654 dead and 889 wounded.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_Brigade
In the aftermath of the Spanish Civil War, members of the brigade were
castigated as supporters of the Soviet Union.
www.art-for-a-change.com/blog/2007/01/social-surrealism-of-irving-norman.html
To FBI director J. Edgar Hoover, the link between the Communist Party
and the Spanish Civil War made all veterans of the Abraham Lincoln
Brigade suspect of potential disloyalty. With the approval of
President Roosevelt, Hoover ordered the surveillance of all
'subversive activities’… Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade were
promptly put under surveillance by the federal investigators. Many
were blatantly harassed at home and at work, both in person and by
telephone, and many lost their jobs and faced occupational
blacklists.... (….) The harassment of the Normans became so great that
in 1958 the couple sought the assistance of the American Civil
Liberties Union. However, the Postal Service continued its
surveillance until 1974, when Norman’s file finally stopped growing.
Hela Norman remembers the FBI’s last visit, when an agent told Irving,
'We consider you unfriendly.'"
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p285_Hummel.html
During the opening months of 1940, the FBI conducted two sets of
widely publicized raids or very poor, who were supposedly plotting to
overthrow the government. The second, in Detroit, swooped down upon a
dozen veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, all leftists who had
fought against General Franco in the Spanish Civil War in 1936 and
1937 and were therefore charged with neutrality law infractions.
http://www.eskimo.com/~recall/bleed/1016.htm
1998 -- US: Abraham Lincoln Brigade Is Honored; More than 60 years
after they took up arms against the fascists in Spain, for which
Hemingway romanticized them & F.B.I. files blacklisted them, members
of the Brigade have finally been given an official monument in this
country.
//////////////////////////////////////////
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_Litvinov
Maxim Litvinov was a Russian revolutionary and prominent Soviet
diplomat, born Max Wallach into a wealthy Jewish banking family in
Białystok.
In 1930, Joseph Stalin appointed Litvinov as Minister of Foreign
Affairs. A firm believer in collective security, Litvinov worked very
hard to form a closer relationship with France and Britain.
After the Munich Agreement between Britain, France and Germany in
September 1938 and Western inaction after Germany's occupation of what
remained of Czechoslovakia in March 1939 had clearly demonstrated the
unwillingness of the Western Powers to participate in collective
security against the Axis Powers together with the Soviet Union,
Soviet foreign policy was adjusted to face the new realities and
Litvinov was replaced as foreign minister in early May 1939, in order
to facilitate the negotiations that led to the Non-Aggression Pact
with Germany, signed by Litvinov's successor, Vyacheslav Molotov, in
August of that year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact
In 1918, by the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, the new Bolshevik Russian
state accepted the loss of sovereignty and influence over Finland,
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, and parts of
Armenia and Georgia as a concession to the Central Powers. In
accordance with the Mitteleuropa-policy, they were designated to
become satellite states to, or parts of, the German Empire with dukes
and kings related to the German emperor.
The European balance of power established at the end of World War I
was eroded step by step, from the Abyssinia crisis (1935) to the
Munich Agreement (1938). The dissolution of Czechoslovakia signaled
increasing instability, as Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and other
countries, such as Hungary and Bulgaria, aspired to regain territories
lost in the aftermath of World War I.
The western states, the United Kingdom and France, notional guarantors
of the territorial status quo, stood by until the March 1939
destruction of Czechoslovakia, maintaining a policy of "non-
intervention" while the Fascist governments of Germany and Italy
supported the victorious right-wing rebels in their destruction of the
Soviet supported Spanish Republic in the Spanish Civil War of 1936-39.
For the Soviet Union, the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a much-needed
response to the deterioration of the European security situation in
the latter half of the 1930s, as Nazi Germany, aligned with Fascist
Italy in the Axis Powers, aimed to reverse the disadvantageous Treaty
of Versailles after World War I. In addition, the ongoing Nomonhan
Incident, culminating in the Battle of Halhin Gol, may have been a
significant consideration for the Soviets for whom a two-front war was
an anathema. The pact may in fact have influenced the Japanese to seek
a cease-fire two weeks after the pact's announcement.
Soviet leaders adopted the position that war between what they
characterized as rival imperialist countries was not only an
inevitable consequence of capitalism, but by weakening the
participants would also enhance conditions for the spread of
Communism. This strategy worked out well for the victorious Soviets,
who spread Communism into eastern Europe after the countries were
weakened during World War II.
During 1938, the Soviet Union (as well as France) offered to abide by
their defensive military alliance with Czechoslovakia in the event of
German invasion, but the Czechoslovakian Agrarian Party was so
strongly opposed to Soviet troops entering the country that they
threatened a civil war might result if they did. The 1935 agreement
between the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and France stipulated that
Soviet aid was conditional and would only come to Czechoslovakia if
France came to their aid as well.
Soviet intervention in the Spanish Civil War as well as the blatant
attempts to undermine the governments of foreign countries were also
viewed with scepticism. Furthermore the Western countries were still
hoping to avoid war by a policy of appeasment.
In Moscow the reluctance of the western states to go to war against
Germany was indicative of a lack of interest from the side of the West
to oppose the growing fascist movement, already exemplified by the
events of the Spanish Civil War. The Soviets were not invited to the
Munich Conference of September 1938, when the French and British Prime
Ministers, Daladier and Chamberlain, agreed to the dismemberment of
Czechoslovakia. As the French had not honoured their 1924 treaty with
the Czechs, the Soviets suspected that their 1935 alliance with France
was valueless, and that the West was trying to divert Germany to the
East.
In March 1939, Hitler's denunciation of the 1934 German-Polish Non-
Aggression Pact was taken by the Soviets as a clear signal of Hitler's
aggressive intentions. Soviet foreign minister Litvinov, in April,
outlined a French, British, Soviet alliance, with military commitment
against Fascist powers, but Chamberlain's government procrastinated.
Franco-British negotiations with the Soviet Union
Negotiations between the Soviet Union, France and the United Kingdom
for a military alliance against Germany stalled, mainly due to mutual
suspicions. The Soviet Union sought guarantees for support against
German aggression and recognition of the right of the Soviet Union to
interfere against "a change of policy favorable to an aggressor" in
the countries along the western Soviet border.
However, with the Third Reich now demanding territorial concessions
from Poland in the face of Polish opposition, the threat of war was
increasing. Although telegrams were exchanged between the Western
Powers and the Soviet Union as early as April 1939, the military
missions sent by the Western Powers (with a slow transport vessel) did
not arrive in Moscow until August 11, and were given no authority to
sign a treaty.
During the first phase of negotiations that began in April, 1939,
Anglo-French side was unwilling to form a formal military alliance as
suggested by the USSR. However, the Western leaders gave up soon and
suggested military alliance in May. A couple of proposals were made by
both sides. On June 2, 1939 Soviet Union submitted its own project,
which suggested tripartite military action under three circumstances:
This project was discussed for the next two months, until the Western
allies eventually accepted it almost completely. Molotov suggested
signing the (political) alliance treaty together with the military
treaty, for which Western delegations were sent to Moscow.
The military negotiations lasted from August 12 to August 17. On
August 14, the question of Poland was raised by Voroshilov for the
first time. The Polish government rightly feared that the Soviet
government sought to annex the disputed territories of Kresy received
by Poland in 1920 after the Treaty of Riga ending the Polish-Soviet
war. Kresy were characterized by the Kremlin as irredenta — "Western
Ukraine" and "Western Belarus". The majority of the population of
Eastern Second Polish Republic was non-Polish, but were inhabited by
ethnically Ukrainian and Belarusian majorities who also formed the
majorities of the bordering Belarussian and Ukrainian SSRs.
Therefore, the Polish government refused to allow the Soviet military
to enter its territory and establish military bases in preparation for
the now-inevitable war with Germany — a situation that allegedly left
the Red Army without any possibility of confronting the Germans before
Poland was invaded. The position was retained even under pressure by
the Western allies, who regarded alliance with the Soviet Union
necessary and possible.
Three weeks into August, the negotiations ground to a halt with each
side doubting the other's motives.
The Munich Agreement and Soviet foreign policy
Defenders of the Soviet position argue that the Soviet Union entered
the non-aggression pact after the September 1938 Munich Agreement had
made it evident that the western countries were pursuing a policy of
appeasement and were not interested in joining the Soviet Union in an
anti-fascist alliance promoted through their popular front tactic. In
addition, there was concern about the possibility that France and the
United Kingdom would stay neutral in a war initiated by Germany,
hoping that the warring states would wear each other out and put an
end to both the Soviet Union and the Nazis.
Biographers of Stalin point out that he believed the British rejected
his proposal of an anti-fascist alliance because they were plotting
with Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union, and that the western
countries were expecting the Third Reich to attack "Communist Russia"
and were hoping that the Nazi forces would wipe out the Soviet Union —
or that both countries would fight each other to the point of
exhaustion and then collapse. These suspicions were reinforced when
Chamberlain and Hitler met for the Munich Agreement.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
On May 2, 8:33 am, raff <m...@nie.ma> wrote:
>
> Look how Karlamow shut up :-)
>
:-)
Markku Grönroos
<vkar...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:1178329611.4...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
An even more fitting monument would be that of the American, British
and French leaders kissing Hitler right below the waist from both the
front and the behind, and handing him a pile of dead bodies of Spanish
and Czech civilians, don’t you think?
>
They were much more eager to lick those brown bits in Dzhugashvili's arse.
vkar...@yahoo.com
>
>
>
> An even more fitting monument would be that of the American, British
> and French leaders kissing Hitler right below the waist from both the
> front and the behind, and handing him a pile of dead bodies of Spanish
> and Czech civilians, don’t you think?
>
> They were much more eager to lick those brown bits in Dzhugashvili's arse.
It's a tie. But the reason why they licked Dzhugashvili is because
they were happy to win the War by sacrificing millions of Soviet
soldiers. For that, they even agreed to give all of Eastern Europe to
Uncle Joe to devour.
There was an old bitter Russian WWI newspaper joke: The British are
prepared to fight Germans to the last drop of Russian blood.
vello
test
Your Uncle Larry
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> wrote in message
news:1178566575....@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On May 7, 4:29 am, vkarla...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On May 4, 9:06 pm, Markku Grönroos <kur...@hassuserveri.fi> wrote:
>
> > <vkarla...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
> > viestissä:1178329611.456138.153...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > An even more fitting monument would be that of the American, British
> > and French leaders kissing Hitler right below the waist from both the
> > front and the behind, and handing him a pile of dead bodies of Spanish
>
> > They were much more eager to lick those brown bits in Dzhugashvili's
> > arse.
>
> It's a tie. But the reason why they licked Dzhugashvili is because
> they were happy to win the War by sacrificing millions of Soviet
> soldiers. For that, they even agreed to give all of Eastern Europe to
> Uncle Joe to devour.
>
> There was an old bitter Russian WWI newspaper joke: The British are
> prepared to fight Germans to the last drop of Russian blood.
test
...send the statue to Iraq for Al-qaeda RPG practice. That should end the
matter.
Of course there's always the potential Al-Qaeda will take the statue hostage
and refuse to release it unless all Estonian troops leave the ice cream
shop.
captain.
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:mS1_h.7122$F11....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
lol
captain.
"Your Uncle Larry" <Lar...@JustLarrys.org> wrote in message
news:zJM%h.46$AI...@newsfe12.lga...
>
> "vello" <vell...@hot.ee> wrote in message
> news:1178566575....@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On May 7, 4:29 am, vkarla...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On May 4, 9:06 pm, Markku Grönroos <kur...@hassuserveri.fi> wrote:
>>
>> > <vkarla...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
>> > viestissä:1178329611.456138.153...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > An even more fitting monument would be that of the American, British
>> > and French leaders kissing Hitler right below the waist from both the
>> > front and the behind, and handing him a pile of dead bodies of Spanish
>>
>> > They were much more eager to lick those brown bits in Dzhugashvili's
>> > arse.
>>
>> It's a tie. But the reason why they licked Dzhugashvili is because
>> they were happy to win the War by sacrificing millions of Soviet
>> soldiers. For that, they even agreed to give all of Eastern Europe to
>> Uncle Joe to devour.
>>
>> There was an old bitter Russian WWI newspaper joke: The British are
>> prepared to fight Germans to the last drop of Russian blood.
>
> test
>
>
> ...send the statue to Iraq for Al-qaeda RPG practice. That should end the
> matter.
>
> Of course there's always the potential Al-Qaeda will take the statue
> hostage and refuse to release it unless all Estonian troops leave the ice
> cream shop.
the estonians are fighting in kandahar; one of the most volitile areas in
the country.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> <vkarla...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
> On Apr 30, 10:57 pm, Markku Grönroos <kur...@hassuserveri.fi> wrote:
>
> > <vkarla...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
> > viestissä:1177998476.728090.120...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > You mean the Nazi SS men? There are already lots of monuments to the
> > > Nazi SS men in Estonia, although they stilll haven't erected the
> > > the biggest anti-Stalinist of all time.
>
> > Can you oddball tell us why this sudden interest on statues?
>
> Elections are upcoming in both Estonia and Russia.
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> Parliament and hence the cabinet are brand new in Estonia..... Any other
> reason (aside your shaky mental health, of course)?
>
That's what I meant, idiot:
///////////////////////////////////////////
THURSDAY, MAY 03, 2007
"Leader" (editorial opinion) from this week's Economist
Russia is grossly over-reacting. But Estonia's tactics were gravely
mistaken. The country's prime minister, Andrus Ansip, made the future
of
the war memorial an issue in the run-up to the general election in
March,
hoping to gain votes from patriotic Estonians for his own Reform
party. He
won handsomely. But he was playing with fire.
vello
It shows lack of knowledge about Estonian inner politics. Differently
from russian people living here, estonians don't had big interest in
monument. It was unimportant case till all mess starts. Ansip's
success on elections was based on good economy. Hardly it is result of
some special actions from Ansip's former govt, but this way it works:
if economy is booming, any govt can cut his profit on elections from
it.
vkar...@yahoo.com
information that in 1938 Poland ganged up with Nazi Gemrany and
annexed Czechoslovak land. I never had known that. Has any of the non-
Czech readers?
/////////////////
(http address missing)
SO.... A part of Ukraine, Belorussia, and Baltic States were captured
by Poland on US_British money. GREAT DEMOCRACY. Whole buch of people
killed. 80,000 soldiers of the Red Army were killed in Polish camps at
that time.
Check it out.
So when Hitler took Czechoslovakia (with the HELP OF BRITS AND FRENCH)
Poland got a piece of it - Tischin region. So IT IS OK. But WHEN USSR
RETURNED BACK (so called secret protocol) captured by Poland
territories - IS NOT OK. AN I RIGHT ? If yes you are hippocritties.
THE CHAMBERLAIN-HITLER DEAL by Clement Libovitz,
The book reviewed below proves beyond any doubt that anti-communism by
the capitalist powers of Europe made WWII and the Holocaust
inevitable. the "Allies" — especially Britain and France — encouraged
Hitler's rise and takeover of the Rheinland, Austria, and
Czechoslovakia in the hopes that the Nazis would attack and overthrow
the then-communist Soviet Union. It also shows how the Soviet
government, under Stalin, tried time and again to get an agreement of
"collective security" against the Nazis with the major European
powers, but was always turned down.
The degree of racism and cynicism expressed by the capitalist
politicians of Europe, as they encouraged Hitler to seek an empire in
the East, is breathtaking! This is the history you won't learn in
school; that's carefully hidden away. And it's not a "conspiracy
theory" — it is thoroughly, exhaustively documented, and conclusions
reached solely on the basis of the evidence. Read it!
Dr. Leibovitz develops and then substantiates the fact that the "gift"
that Sir Neville Chamberlain, the then Prime Minister of Britain, gave
Adolf Hitler, Chancellor of Germany, on that fateful day in Munich,
September 30, 1938, was nothing less than a "free hand" and, even
more, encouragement to begin a series of aggressive acts that ended in
World War II. The basic content of this "free hand" policy was to
direct and redirect Hitler's military's expansion to Eastern Europe
and, particularly, against "the menace" of Bolshevism in the Soviet
Union. In effect, then, what has been called appeasement or
rapprochement, was in fact overt encouragement to destroy the Soviet
Union and divide the spheres of influence of Germany and Britain,
i.e., to give Germany a free hand in Central and Eastern Europe in the
naive hope that Britain, who had ruled the waves for her whole
imperial history, would be granted a Western sanctuary, possibly
including France and Belgium. Moreover, this was more than mere
conspiracy of the like-minded, but involved prior intentionality.
Trading with the Enemy
The Nazi - American Money Plot 1933-1949
by Charles Higham
Delacorte Press, 1983
Poland troops happend to be in Kiev ? Strange right ? In Minsk ?
Strange again ? What the f""ck Polish troops were doing in Ukraine,
Belorussia, Baltic States ? MEGALOMANIA OF MR. PILSUDSKIY.
/////////////////////////////////
So I got interested and started searching. And I found...
The falsification of history is rampant in the West. People always
talk about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and almost never mention the
Munich betrayal of Czechoslovakia and USSR, committed by the British
and French for the sake of Nazi Germany and fascist Italy, Hungary and
Poland.
People always tell the sad story how Nazi Germany and Communist USSR
ganged up on an innocent Poland and gobbled it up. But no Western
textbook ever tells you that less than a year prior to that, the
“innocent” fascist Poland ganged up with Nazi Germany and fascist
Hungary and gobbled up Czechoslovakia, with the British and French
blessing.
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/witness2history/17.html
WITNESS TO HISTORY
Michael Walsh
"... that very Poland which with hyena appetite only six months
before, joined in the pillage and destruction of the Czechoslovak
state." - Winston Churchill, The Second World War, Vol.1, pp. 311/312
///////////////////////////////
http://nhs.needham.k12.ma.us/cur/baker_00/03/baker_pg-jm/poland.htm
Prelude to War
On January 26, 1934 the Polish and German governments signed a
nonaggression pact which would last for ten years unless renounced six
months in advance by either party. On January 30, 1937, Hitler
reaffirmed the importance of the nonaggression pact, but at this time
Germany had remilitarized, reoccupied the Rhineland, and Hitler was
getting ready to take over Austria and Czechoslovakia.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
The Czechoslovaks were also very angry with the Munich settlement.
With Sudetenland gone to Germany and later southern Slovakia (one
third of Slovak territory) taken by Hungary and the area of Cieszyn
Silesia by Poland, Czecho-Slovakia lost its border defences with
Germany and without them its independence became more nominal than
real.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://encarta.msn.com/sidebar_461501484/1939_Poland.html
In January 1934, a non-aggression treaty was concluded between Poland
and Nazi Germany. This treaty, which constituted a complete reversal
of the German foreign policy, was favorably accepted by the majority
of Polish public opinion. ... After the Marshal died, in May 1935,
his successors, deprived of the only claim they had to power, began to
imitate, in foreign as well as in domestic policies, the totalitarian
régimes, especially Hitlerism. 'The Colonels' established what was
called abroad 'a dictatorship without a dictator,' the rule of a
military clique despised by the overwhelming majority of the Polish
people. While the people were anti-German and pro-French, the régime
after 1934 became increasingly pro-German. It allowed the Nazification
of Danzig in violation of the Versailles Treaty, and contributed to
the extinction of the authority of the League of Nations in the Free
City. The Polish Government accepted, against its evident self-
interest, an anti-Czech policy, and in October 1938 was an accomplice
in Hitler's disregard for the rights of smaller nations by
participating in the division of the spoils. Poland occupied the
Teschen region, inhabited by a majority of Czechs.
Soviet-Polish declaration of Nov. 27, 1938, reaffirmed the non-
aggression pact of 1932, and stated that henceforth the relations
between the two countries would be based on a good neighborly
understanding. But the pro-German tendency was still so strong in
Polish official circles, that the press was ordered to minimize the
significance of that declaration. Moreover, on Jan. 5, 1939, Colonel
Beck paid a visit to Berchtesgaden, where he was reported to have
received assurances from the German Chancellor that the next German
move would not be in the East, and that no Nazi support would be given
to the Pan-Ukrainian movement. On Jan. 25, Joachim von Ribbentrop,
Nazi foreign minister, visited Poland for the celebration of the fifth
anniversary of the Polish-German non-aggression treaty of 1934. The
document was praised as one of the fundamental instruments of European
peace, and as the basis for friendly Polish-German relations. In
retrospect, this oratory, scarcely a few months old, appears as the
'swan song' in the strange marriage of convenience between the two
dictatorships.
///////////////////////////////////////////////
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Poland
the situation of Jewish was never too satisfactory, and it
deteriorated again after Piłsudski's death, which many Jews regarded
as a tragedy.[3]... Further academic harassment, anti-Jewish riots,
and semi-official or unofficial quotas (Numerus clausus) introduced in
1937 in some universities halved the number of Jews in Polish
universities between independence and the late 1930s. In 1937 the
Catholic trade unions of Polish doctors and lawyers restricted their
new members to Christian Poles while many government jobs continued to
be unavailable to Jews during this entire period. This was accompanied
by physical violence: in the years between 1935 and 1937 seventy-nine
Jews were killed and 500 injured in anti-Jewish incidents.[7] Violence
was also frequently aimed at Jewish stores and many of them were
looted. At the same time, persistent economic boycotts and harassment
including property-destroying riots, combined with the effects of the
Great Depression..., reduced the standard of living of Polish Jews
until it was among the worst among major Jewish communities in the
world..
///////////////////////////////////
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node131.html
On March 11, 1938, Radio Berlin announced a `Communist uprising in
Austria' and the Wehrmacht (German army) pounced on that country,
annexing it in two days. The Soviet Union took up Austria's defence
and called on Great Britain and France to prepare collective defence.
`Tomorrow will perhaps be too late', underscored the Soviet
leadership.
In mid-May, Hitler concentrated his troops on the border with
Czechoslovakia. The Soviet Union, with treaty obligations towards the
threatened country, placed 40 divisions on its Western border and
called up 330,000 reservists. But in September, Great Britain and
France met in Munich with the fascist powers, Germany and Italy.
Neither Czechoslovakia nor the Soviet Union were invited. The great
`democracies' decided to offer Hitler the Sudeten region of
Czechoslovakia. Along with this treacherous act, Great Britain signed
on September 30 a declaration with Germany in which the two powers
stated that they regarded the agreement `as symbolic of the desire of
our peoples never to go to war with one another again.'
Churchill declared on October 1, 1939:
`(T)hat the Russian armies should stand on this line was clearly
necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace. At any
rate, the line is there, and an Eastern Front has been created which
Nazi Germany
Winston S. Churchill, op. cit. , p. 449.
Unable to see through their dream of seeing the Nazi army charge
through Poland to attack the Soviet Union, France and Britain were
forced to declare war on Germany. But on the Western Front, not a
single bomb would bother Nazi tranquility. However, a real internal
political war was launched against the French Communists: On September
26, the French Communist Party was banned and thousands of its members
were thrown into prison. Henri de Kerillis wrote:
`An incredible tempest swept through bourgeois minds. The crusade
storm raged. Only one cry could be heard: War on Russia. It was at
this moment that the anti-Communist delirium reached its apogee.'
Cited in La grande guerre nationale de l'Union soviétique (Moscow:
Éditions du Progrès, 1974), p. 20.
//////////////////////////////////////
http://www.letton.ch/lvribent.htm
Le 1er octobre 1939 W. Churchill s'exprima à la radio:
Allthough the Russians were guilty of the grossest bad faith in the
recent negotiations, their demand made by Marschal Voroshilov that
Russian armies should occupy Vilna and Lemberg if they were to be
allies of Poland was a perfectly valid military request. It was
rejected by Poland on grounds which, though natural, can now be seen
to have been insufficient. In the result Russians occupied the same
line and positions as the enemy of Poland which possibly she might
have occupied as a very doubtful and suspected friend.
HITLER WARNED OFF
Russia has persued a cold policy of self-interest. We could have
wished that the Russian armies should be standing on their present
line as the freinds and allies of Poland instead of as invders. But
that the Russian armies should stand on this line was clearly
nessessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace. At any
rate, the line is there, and an Eastern front has been created which
Nazi Germany does not dare assail
Source: note du 25 septembre 1939 de W. Churchill au War Cabinet,
Winston S. Churchill, The Second World War, The Reprint Society,
London 1950, vol.I. p.361-363
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-2801(198109)53%3A3%3C417%3ASOIISW%3E2.0.CO%3B2-G
When herr von Ribbentrop was summoned to Moscow last week, it was to
learn the fact, and to accept the fact, that the Nazi designs upon the
Baltic states and upon the Ukraine must come to a dead stop. [W.
Churchill]
///////////////////////////////////
Egon Bahr
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Egon Karlheinz Bahr (born March 18, 1922 in Treffurt/Thüringen) is a
German former politician for the SPD.
The former journalist created the "Ostpolitik" of West German
Chancellor Willy Brandt, for whom he served as Secretary of the Prime
Minister's Office from 1969 until 1972. Between 1972 and 1990 he was
an MP in the Bundestag of the Federal Republic of Germany, and from
1972 until 1976 was also a Minister.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Egon Bahr said about Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact: “My god. Would any other
country act in a different matter? Did USSR act any differently? Would
USA act differently? “
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
> //////////////////////////////////////////////////http://www.maebrussell.com/The%20War/The%20War%20-%20notes.html
>
> At the Munich talks it was agreed that Germany could have 1/3 of
> Czechoslovakia and 1/3 of the population. The German army would move
> in October 1. Great Britain and Germany signed a treaty of friendship.
>
> ///////////////////////////////////////http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_betrayalhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal
>
> In 1935, the Soviets signed treaties of alliance with France and
> Czechoslovakia. The Soviet-Czechoslovak treaty committed the Soviets
> to come to the aid of Czechoslovakia if attacked by a neighbor
> provided France did first.
>
> The term Western betrayal was coined after the Munich Conference
> (1938) when Czechoslovakia was forced to cede part of its area
> (Sudetenland) to Germany. Czech politicians joined the newspapers in
> regularly using the term and it, along with the associated feelings,
> became a stereotype among Czechs. The Czech terms Mnichov (Munich),
> Mnichovská zrada (Munich betrayal) and zrada spojenců (betrayal of the
> allies) were coined at the same time and have the same meaning.
>
> During the post-war 1946 parliamentary campaign, the Communist Party
> of Czechoslovakia argued (with much success) that the historical
> unreliability of Western allies must be countered by closer relations
> with the Soviet Union.
>
> Spain
>
> A similar feeling occurred among the supporters of the Second Spanish
> Republic. During the Spanish Civil War, the democratic countries had
> taken to neutrality instead of supporting the democratically-elected
> republic against the rebels supported by Nazi Germany and Fascist
> Italy. Only the Soviet Union offered military help to the Republic.
>
> /////////////////////////////////////http://www.maebrussell.com/The%20War/The%20War%20-%20notes.html
> www.art-for-a-change.com/blog/2007/01/social-surrealism-of-irving-nor...
>
> To FBI director J. Edgar Hoover, the link between the Communist Party
> and the Spanish Civil War made all veterans of the Abraham Lincoln
> Brigade suspect of potential disloyalty. With the approval of
> President Roosevelt, Hoover ordered the surveillance of all
> 'subversive activities’… Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade were
> promptly put under surveillance by the federal investigators. Many
> were blatantly harassed at home and at work, both in person and by
> telephone, and many lost their jobs and faced occupational
> blacklists.... (….) The harassment of the Normans became so great that
> in 1958 the couple sought the assistance of the American Civil
> Liberties Union. However, the Postal Service continued its
> surveillance until 1974, when Norman’s file finally stopped growing.
> Hela Norman remembers the FBI’s last visit, when an agent told Irving,
> 'We consider you unfriendly.'"
>
> http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p285_Hummel.html
>
> During the opening months of 1940, the FBI conducted two sets of
> widely publicized raids or very poor, who were supposedly plotting to
> overthrow the government. The second, in Detroit, swooped down upon a
> dozen veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, all leftists who had
> fought against General Franco in the Spanish Civil War in 1936 and
> 1937 and were therefore charged with neutrality law infractions.http://www.eskimo.com/~recall/bleed/1016.htm
>
> 1998 -- US: Abraham Lincoln Brigade Is Honored; More than 60 years
> after they took up arms against the fascists in Spain, for which
> Hemingway romanticized them & F.B.I. files blacklisted them, members
> of the Brigade have finally been given an official monument in this
> country.
> //////////////////////////////////////////http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_Litvinov
Jerzy Pawlowski
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> THE CHAMBERLAIN-HITLER DEAL by Clement Libovitz,
>
> The degree of racism and cynicism expressed by the
> capitalist politicians of Europe, as they encouraged
> Hitler to seek an empire in the East, is breathtaking!
> This is the history you won't learn in school; that's
> carefully hidden away.
The fact is that most European countries in some ways
supported or collaborated with Hitler, either by
forming coalitions with him (USSR, Italy, Finland,
Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria), or by forming
collaborating occupational governments (France,
Norway, Slovakia, Croatia), or by supplying SS troops
(Bosnia, Ukraine, Latvia, Belgium, Netherlands).
After WWII the victorious Allies rewrote much of WWII
history and dug up marginal "resistance movements" to
whitewash themselves.
For example today most Russians have no recollection
that the USSR collaborated with Hitler to attack and
dismember neighbouring countries. All they remember
is the Great Patriotic War, which has been branded
upon their brains by Soviet propaganda.
--
"Imbéciles réveillez vous!"
Jerzy Pawlowski (j...@panix.com)
raff
> A few days ago, I came across an astonishing (at least to me)
> information that in 1938 Poland ganged up with Nazi Gemrany and
> annexed Czechoslovak land. I never had known that. Has any of the non-
> Czech readers?
>
and annexing Polish territory ?
R.
Iamhere
> A few days ago, I came across an astonishing (at least to me)
> information that in 1938 Poland ganged up with Nazi Gemrany and
> annexed Czechoslovak land. I never had known that. Has any of the non-
That's plain bull. From what comic book did you derive the
information? "Spidermanski?"
vello
> In article <1179739752.625220.269...@y2g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
In your cooperation data there is one big hole in it: you forgot vhole
Russian Army, leaded by Vlassov, acting as nazi ally.
vello
Ask from czechs. That area, Cesky Teszin, was saved from nazi
occupation - well, for not a long time.
raff
>>> information that in 1938 Poland ganged up with Nazi Gemrany and
>>> annexed Czechoslovak land. I never had known that. Has any of the non-
>> That's plain bull. From what comic book did you derive the
>> information? "Spidermanski?"
>
> Ask from czechs. That area, Cesky Teszin, was saved from nazi
> occupation - well, for not a long time.
>
R.
Vladimir Makarenko
> A few days ago, I came across an astonishing (at least to me)
> information that in 1938 Poland ganged up with Nazi Gemrany and
> annexed Czechoslovak land. I never had known that. Has any of the non-
> Czech readers?
>
I have known about that for a while. You may also get an interesting
answer how several tens of thousands Red Army soldiers "dissappeared"
after been taken by Polish troops as POW during Russia's Civil War. Or
find out who was first to run ethnic concentration camps. Poland has
quite a few skeletons in its closet.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
This one is worth a question - can you please elaborate on the "acting"?
Dates and places will be enough. Except fighting in Prague in May of 1945.
VM.
raff
>> information that in 1938 Poland ganged up with Nazi Gemrany and
>> annexed Czechoslovak land. I never had known that. Has any of the non-
>> Czech readers?
>>
>
> I have known about that for a while. You may also get an interesting
> answer how several tens of thousands Red Army soldiers "dissappeared"
> after been taken by Polish troops as POW during Russia's Civil War. Or
> find out who was first to run ethnic concentration camps.
LOL, Usual Russian answer for Katyn. Could you point me any INDEPENDENT
resources on the number of these "several tens of thousands" ? By
*INDEPENDENT* I mean not Russian (lie a priori). Russian and true is an
oxymoron. It's just a bunch of lie.
And where did you find that ethnic concentration camps ? In your Kremlin
materials ? Funny to hear that from Russians, inventors of Tsar
concentration camps and later Soviet Gulags.
R.
Vladimir Makarenko
Dude, you a one nervous wreck.
Relax.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
> In article <1179739752.6...@y2g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> <vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>THE CHAMBERLAIN-HITLER DEAL by Clement Libovitz,
>>
>>The degree of racism and cynicism expressed by the
>>capitalist politicians of Europe, as they encouraged
>>Hitler to seek an empire in the East, is breathtaking!
>>This is the history you won't learn in school; that's
>>carefully hidden away.
>
>
> The fact is that most European countries in some ways
> supported or collaborated with Hitler, either by
> forming coalitions with him (USSR, Italy, Finland,
> Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria), or by forming
> collaborating occupational governments (France,
> Norway, Slovakia, Croatia), or by supplying SS troops
> (Bosnia, Ukraine, Latvia, Belgium, Netherlands).
>
> After WWII the victorious Allies rewrote much of WWII
> history and dug up marginal "resistance movements" to
> whitewash themselves.
Very sharp. Nice to see that not all Polish brains abandoned Usenet.
As to the crap below - I understand one has always to compensate with
standard nonsense after saying something clever.
One addition - France did supply SS voluntiers, I remember about 20,000.
The fact the Europe do not like to mention is that by 1942 approximately
half of Waffen SS had consisted of non Germans. But then history would
be read differently, right?
VM.
Markku Grönroos
"Vladimir Makarenko" <nospam@nospam> kirjoitti
viestissä:Ib-dnfyVGeorJczb...@giganews.com...
>
> This one is worth a question - can you please elaborate on the "acting"?
> Dates and places will be enough. Except fighting in Prague in May of 1945.
>
Didn't the Bolsheviks fight in Prague also in 1968? What was the reason this
time?
wk
Hej, moron!
Cane you cross out soc.culture.polish?
Did you hear, that Stalin is dead?
wk
Vladimir Makarenko
Poland needs to improve teaching of English spelling in its high schools.
VM.
lora...@cs.com
> Jerzy Pawlowski wrote:
> > The fact is that most European countries in some ways
> > supported or collaborated with Hitler, either by
> > forming coalitions with him (USSR, Italy, Finland,
> > Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria), or by forming
> > collaborating occupational governments (France,
> > Norway, Slovakia, Croatia), or by supplying SS troops
> > (Bosnia, Ukraine, Latvia, Belgium, Netherlands).
>
> > After WWII the victorious Allies rewrote much of WWII
> > history and dug up marginal "resistance movements" to
> > whitewash themselves.
>
> Very sharp. Nice to see that not all Polish brains abandoned Usenet.
> As to the crap below - I understand one has always to compensate with
> standard nonsense after saying something clever.
>
> One addition - France did supply SS voluntiers, I remember about 20,000.
> The fact the Europe do not like to mention is that by 1942 approximately
> half of Waffen SS had consisted of non Germans. But then history would
> be read differently, right?
>
> > that the USSR collaborated with Hitler to attack and
> > dismember neighbouring countries. All they remember
> > is the Great Patriotic War, which has been branded
> > upon their brains by Soviet propaganda.
You don't remember the Stalin-Hitler Pact (side protocols) Makaron?
We can help!
wk
And history for russian liars.
wk
Vladimir Makarenko
Don't you think you need to call a nurse - your doctor's leak break
lasts too long?
VM.
wk
Poslushay paren'.
Vycherkny soc.culture.polish i nie
posylaj sdes svojevo vonyuchego gavna.
Ponyal durak?
wk
raff
>>>>> Cane you cross out soc.culture.polish?
>>>>> Did you hear, that Stalin is dead?
>>>>> wk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Poland needs to improve teaching of English spelling in its high
>>>> schools.
>>>>
>>>> VM.
>>>
>>>
>>> And history for russian liars.
>>> wk
>>
>> Don't you think you need to call a nurse - your doctor's leak break
>> lasts too long?
>>
>> VM.
>
> Poslushay paren'.
> Vycherkny soc.culture.polish i nie
> posylaj sdes svojevo vonyuchego gavna.
> Ponyal durak?
Leave him alone. look what he thinks about his president:
>>
> Is that why Putin doesn't like gay parades ? What your Kremlin
sources are telling about it ?
>
> R.
> Who told you he doesn't? What if he is a gay?
> VM.
R.
wk
Chodzi o to, zeby sobie myslal co chce
ale w swojej grupie.
Pust dumajet shto hochet, no v swojej
grupie.
U nas zhlobov hvatayet.
wk
Vladimir Makarenko
Don't be a smartass. I said:
"Who told you he doesn't? What if he is a gay? Potatoe brothers will
refer to Moscow as Sodom? "
The clue word is "Potatoe"
I love Poland.
VM.
vello
February 11 on Oder river (Wiki)
vello
> Jerzy Pawlowski wrote:
Vladimir, Waffen-SS WAS a thing for non-germans - Hitler finds regular
Wermacht have no "special experience" to work with ausländers, so ANY
non-german soldier in German army was fighting in Waffen-SS. Hardly
(too lazy to check) germans had 50% in Waffen-SS in any time of ww2.
There were some elite german SS-batallions, but mostly Waffen-SS was
to keep SS eye on foreign soldiers in German army.
>
> > For example today most Russians have no recollection
> > that the USSR collaborated with Hitler to attack and
> > dismember neighbouring countries. All they remember
> > is the Great Patriotic War, which has been branded
> > upon their brains by Soviet propaganda.- >
-
vello
Do Poland run some "ethnic" KZ camps? Don't know for sure but even
nazis by me had no "juden only" camps.
Vladimir Makarenko
The bottom line is: What happened in between 1933-1945 is not
exclusively German thing as the schooll history text books tell us today.
Germans are made scapegoats, natural born killers, SS men. And they were
not - I know this more than first hand.
And the rest of the world? Oh, we are the victims! We fought back!
Like Finns. Running death camps. (Here comes Mr. Anderson and Co with
explanations backed by Finnish puppet Putin)
Give me a break.
VM.
Paris Hilton
and send it to Japan.
Once the Japs get wasted on saki and cover it with soy suace, they won't
know the difference.
Life is good.
Vladimir Makarenko
Concentratuion camps were introduced by British during the war at South
Africa.
They were in use during WWI. Poland used them between end of twenties
ande beginning of thrities against Ukrainian population at the
territories it occupied in the South after defeat of Red Army in 1920.
The number between 20 and 40 thousand Red Army soldiers taken as POW by
Poland is unaccounted. Poland do not even talk about that: It never
happened.
If you do not believe me - ask them. I bet the answer will be - what are
you talking about?
VM.
raff
> Africa.
> They were in use during WWI. Poland used them between end of twenties
> ande beginning of thrities against Ukrainian population at the
> territories it occupied in the South
Lie: it was part of Polish state, not occupied land.
R.
Vladimir Makarenko
How many Ukrainians died in this CC (SS came later) ?
VM.
raff
R.
wk
> Don't worry about Poland. They can just re-label their meat as "fresh whale"
> and send it to Japan.
>
> Once the Japs get wasted on saki and cover it with soy suace,
and later they will send to Russia.
wk
raff
Because they have higher standards than EU. You know, newspapers and
flies on the meat markets.
R.
wk
flies are russian, and everything is OK.
wk
Lancelot Potresselli
> >
>
> Concentratuion camps were introduced by British during the war at South
> Africa.
> They were in use during WWI. Poland used them between end of twenties
> ande beginning of thrities against Ukrainian population at the
> territories it occupied in the South after defeat of Red Army in 1920.
>
> The number between 20 and 40 thousand Red Army soldiers taken as POW by
> Poland is unaccounted. Poland do not even talk about that: It never
> happened.
> If you do not believe me - ask them. I bet the answer will be - what are
> you talking about?
>
> VM.
Poland has been and still is the expert on covering up information. Ask a
Polkadotski about the massacre at Jedwabne and he'll look at you as if he's
quietly stroking his kielbasy. The only thing good about Poland is her
chocolate candy. The best in the world. I fly over twice weekly to buy some
bars. "Yummy yummy,polkadummy."
Vladimir Makarenko
That is YOUR problem. You may run but you cannot hide:
Dead people do not dissapear, doesn't matter how much you wish they would.
VM.
raff
>>>
>> I will not discuss with lies. You will not provoke me. That's your
>> problem.
>>
>> R.
>
> That is YOUR problem. You may run but you cannot hide:
> Dead people do not dissapear, doesn't matter how much you wish they would.
>
knows Russia, just a little, knows its lie policy.
We can just piss on it, you can do nothing. It's as much true as these
lies that "Katyn did Germans". What really matters, are facts.
My time is valuable. Do you think I have nothing to do except discussing
with obvious Russian propaganda bullshit ?
Believe me I do.
R.
Vladimir Makarenko
Afraid that people will look into what happened? Learn from us -
Russians, we are not afraid of any truth.
Take it easy - e.g Finns are mass murderers, they run death camps - and
they don't give a damn. Blame everything on Russians - it sells.
VM.
Paris Hilton
"wk" <elek...@aim.com> wrote in message news:f2su57$2v3$2...@news.onet.pl...
It is good to be a Russian fly.
There is no shortage of Russian turds to munch on.
Vladimir Makarenko
Go, give somebody a blowjob. U r used to it, "Paris".
VM.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
How did that happen?
vello
You mess countries and individuals here. Sure germans are one of most
nice people in Europe. And, in general, all people are nice, no matter
of their nationality. But with countries, there IS clear difference -
ones (Germany, USSR, Japan) went to cut their happiness from the flesh
of other nations, other did it not.
(Well, the way to power for meatcutters in Germany was paved by other
meatcutters in Versailles)
About running death camps, I know Gulag and german KZ. What Camps had
finns? POW camps?
vello
But to the starting point: you are making one linguistic mistake.
Modern world knows "Concentration camp" as part of nazi-soviet killing
industries. But POW camps are as old as wars are (or, OK, they started
after winners abandoned a practice to eat captured enemy soldiers).
Historical ghettos are in fact "concentration camps" - to concentrate
one nation in one area, often guarded at last at night.
So I will try to make my research about lost Red Army in Poland. Just
I read your post again and you say nothing about their faith - are
they by you killed like Polish officers in Katyn? Or they just joined
millions of russians living after ww1 their lives in Europe? Coz if it
is by other way, there is nothing to look for, Paris was half russian
after ww1.
vello
Well I forgot camps in Ukraine - do you have some source to get
information?
vello
Why everything? Pearl Harbour was done by japanese, big part of Europe
by germans. I blame Russia for Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,
Poland (shared responsibility with Germany), Romania. (Well maybe I
forgot some place), Hungary, Bulgaria, Japan. They also keep third
part of Germany for half a century and some pieces till today, but OK,
Germany made first shots against Russia.
raff
Yo know how. We were thinking about it as part of our historical
territory, Ukrainians as well.
Now the problem is solved. Happy ?
R.
raff
between Poles and Ukrainians ?
R.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
It's our historical land' :)
It couldn't be clearer! :)
raff
>>> How did that happen?
>>
>> Yo know how. We were thinking about it as part of our historical
>> territory, Ukrainians as well.
>>
>> Now the problem is solved. Happy ?
>>
> Ah yes. 'Where once our boot has trod. Where once our soldiers shed blood.
> It's our historical land' :)
> It couldn't be clearer! :)
My ancestors were thinking about Lwiw in this way. What can I do ?
They were connected with this land emotionally, the same as yours.
You think it was just a greed of land ? No.
But you shouldn't worry. Young generations see it is lost and no way back.
R.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> raff napisał(a):
>> urjlew wrote:
>>> raff wrote:
>>>> In <BdKdnX5gJduVb8zb...@giganews.com>
"Lie: ..." claim morally true, nor a valid justification.
I'm sure that whichever Raff has no time to address such niceties.
captain.
""Jerzy Pawlowski"" <j...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:f2s0t9$a55$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <1179739752.6...@y2g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> For example today most Russians have no recollection
> that the USSR collaborated with Hitler to attack and
> dismember neighbouring countries. All they remember
> is the Great Patriotic War, which has been branded
> upon their brains by Soviet propaganda.
>
do you really think none of them know it?
captain.
"Vladimir Makarenko" <nospam@nospam> wrote in message
news:M7ydnSXuRorCSszb...@giganews.com...
> wk wrote:
>> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>>
>>> wk wrote:
>>>
>>>> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jerzy Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> that the USSR collaborated with Hitler to attack and
>>>>>> dismember neighbouring countries. All they remember
>>>>>> is the Great Patriotic War, which has been branded
>>>>>> upon their brains by Soviet propaganda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cane you cross out soc.culture.polish?
>>>> Did you hear, that Stalin is dead?
>>>> wk
>>>
>>>
>>> Poland needs to improve teaching of English spelling in its high
>>> schools.
>>>
>>> VM.
>>
>>
>> And history for russian liars.
>> wk
>
> Don't you think you need to call a nurse - your doctor's leak break lasts
> too long?
>
> VM.
lol makarenko, looks like you finally caught yourself a fish.
captain.
"Lancelot Potresselli" <Potre...@comcast.net.> wrote in message
news:zNn4i.1661$AN7....@newsfe12.lga...
yummy women too!
Vladimir Makarenko
Vladimir Makarenko
Not right now - but if you have time look into history Galicia and Volyn
after annexation by Poland after wwI and especially "pacification" of
the locals around 1930.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
No - I am rather sure the losses were due to starvation and lack of
medical care.
Do not forget that name one of the two commanders who caused the
catastrophic defeat and huge losses was "Stalin".
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Heh, you don't need to make the list that long to justify vandalism to
buy few votes in parliamentary election. This way you will end up
blaming Russkies for the Moon's deserted landscape.
Still one correction though - the primary responsibility for the whole
WWII and Europe's Catastrophe is with Britain and France. Or
"Versailles" - as is a politically correct name for the bedlam of their
make.
VM.
vello
I often noticed here that Versailles is key to the fascist rise of
Germany. But responsibility remains on germans. Simple parallel: if
company owner Vladimir fires his employee Vello, and Vello, in
desperate, robbs a bank - it will be Vello's, not Vladimir's fault.
But sure, cutting parts from neighbour's body is a good way to make
enemies for a long time.
vello
Surely there were prisoner camps in Boer war - like in most wars. So?
It's more about semantics, about one puts behind some word. Word
"police" will cover guys looking for traffic in Swiss but also KGB/
Gestapo officers. Same with camps.
>
>
>
> > So I will try to make my research about lost Red Army in Poland. Just
> > I read your post again and you say nothing about their faith - are
> > they by you killed like Polish officers in Katyn? Or they just joined
> > millions of russians living after ww1 their lives in Europe? Coz if it
> > is by other way, there is nothing to look for, Paris was half russian
> > after ww1.
Still waiting your idea about faith of Red Army soldiers. Do Poland
really handles the thing in Katyn way?
vello
But not due small holes in nape like it happens to polish warriors in
Russian hands?
> Do not forget that name one of the two commanders who caused the
> catastrophic defeat and huge losses was "Stalin".
>
> VM.
And other was Tuchachewsky, by the way polish by roots :-)
Vladimir Makarenko
You mean that if Russians starved them to death then it would be lesser
crime?
> > Do not forget that name one of the two commanders who caused the
> > catastrophic defeat and huge losses was "Stalin".
> >
> > VM.
> And other was Tuchachewsky, by the way polish by roots :-)
I do not know his roots but allegedly Stalin hated him since that
failure as he hated only few people. IIRC, report of Tukhachevsky on how
the shit happened brought Stalin's career close to an end.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
"Traffic police"? That's the statistics in the article:
"The conditions in the camps were very unhealthy and the food rations
were meager. The wives and children of men who were still fighting were
given smaller rations than others. The poor diet and inadequate hygiene
led to endemic contagious diseases such as measles, typhoid and
dysentery. Coupled with a shortage of medical facilities, this led to
large numbers of deaths — a report after the war concluded that 27,927
Boers (of whom 24,074 [50% of the Boer child population died] were
children under 16) and 14,154 black Africans had died of starvation,
disease and exposure in the concentration camps."
If death of 50% of the Boer child population doesn't qualify that as
concentration camps in the most darkest sense then I do not see how one
can have a problem with Gulag. Gulag should then be renamed in a driver
license school.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Versailles set up a continuation of WWI:
Germany had been treated as a European colony of Britain and France:
they sucked all the blood from the country for years after the war was
officially over. Germany lost the WWI because its population refused to
carry the economic burden anymore. And it was put into such conditions
again. So radical explosion either lead by Nazis or Communists had been
guaranteed by imperial thinking of B&F.
The two set up the stage for WWII. Guilty like hell, but turned up in a
right camp in 1945 to write the Winner's version of history.
VM.
vello
wrote:
> vello wrote:
>
> > But not due small holes in nape like it happens to polish warriors in
> > Russian hands?
>
> You mean that if Russians starved them to death then it would be lesser
> crime?
Russians starved to death a lot of POWs in ww2 - and almost all other
fighting nations too. There was not enough food in wartime.
>
> > > Do not forget that name one of the two commanders who caused the
> > > catastrophic defeat and huge losses was "Stalin".
>
> > > VM.
> > And other was Tuchachewsky, by the way polish by roots :-)
>
> I do not know his roots but allegedly Stalin hated him since that
> failure as he hated only few people. IIRC, report of Tukhachevsky on how
> the shit happened brought Stalin's career close to an end.
>
> VM.
Well he still had some career after 1920 :-)
vello
wrote:
> vello wrote:
>
>
> > Surely there were prisoner camps in Boer war - like in most wars. So?
> > It's more about semantics, about one puts behind some word. Word
> > "police" will cover guys looking for traffic in Swiss but also KGB/
> > Gestapo officers. Same with camps.
>
> "Traffic police"? That's the statistics in the article:
>
> "The conditions in the camps were very unhealthy and the food rations
> were meager. The wives and children of men who were still fighting were
> given smaller rations than others. The poor diet and inadequate hygiene
> led to endemic contagious diseases such as measles, typhoid and
> dysentery. Coupled with a shortage of medical facilities, this led to
> Boers (of whom 24,074 [50% of the Boer child population died] were
> children under 16) and 14,154 black Africans had died of starvation,
> disease and exposure in the concentration camps."
>
> If death of 50% of the Boer child population doesn't qualify that as
> concentration camps in the most darkest sense then I do not see how one
> can have a problem with Gulag. Gulag should then be renamed in a driver
> license school.
>
> VM.
>
question is - was there some food available? Was death rate result of
just poor conditions due lack of resources or were such a conditions
created to kill people down?
vello
Well, in a good day I may belive something like that when talk is
about Russia, but germans are grown-up nation: surely they were put in
desperate situation, but real man will radher die but not look for
criminal way out..
vkar...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>
> The only thing good about Poland is her chocolate candy.
> The best in the world. I fly over twice weekly to buy some
> bars. "Yummy yummy,polkadummy."
>
That sounds interesting. What kind and wha brands of chocolate candy
do you buy?
And where do you fly from to get it?
Vladimir Makarenko
Then there are no real men around. And never were. At least among
countries.
In difference with humans nations can get rid of burden of years and
social habits at a snap of fingers - nurture means much more than nature
when it comes to social structures - Look at North Korea or Cambodia,
both come from very ancient tolerant cultures.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
British applied "scorched earth" tactics in the country. And the death
rate was a consequence of deliberate actions.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Because in difference with others around him he was dedicated
exclusively to his survival. And as the only path to that he saw
grabbing more and more power. His former assistant who fled to the West
in 1929 (not sure about the date) described him as a person spending
most of his work time plotting against colleagues, leaving him almost no
time for the work he was supposed to do.
He survived Lenin's letter to Central Committee, Bekhterev's diagnosis
of acute paranoia, vote of Congress in 1934, etc. He didn't fool around
and wasted any time for anything else but survival.
VM.
captain.
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180249156.3...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On May 21, 2:02 pm, "Lancelot Potresselli" <Potresse...@comcast.net.>
> What kind and what brands of chocolate candy
> do you buy?
>
swiss mostly: lindt and toblerone. also, some belgium.
vello
Sure - but ultimate responsibility about what happens in country carry
people living in particular country (it's different only if country is
occupied).
I don't think germans must support Versailles rape, more, I agree that
there was justified ground to redo Versailles by military means if no
other way would work out - but their guilt is in creating nazi
society. One may be angry - and angry with reason - but if one is an
old European nation, ideas borrowed from maneating times must be
excluded when looking for solution.
vello
Yeah - and what makes his job easier: his opponents were the first and
last generation of commie idealists, thinking not so much about their
own political power but about "happinees of working class all over the
World" (well don't know do idealism survives up to 1924)
MTRP™
> I don't think germans must support Versailles rape, more, I agree that
> there was justified ground to redo Versailles by military means if no
> other way would work out - but their guilt is in creating nazi
> society. One may be angry - and angry with reason - but if one is an
> old European nation, ideas borrowed from maneating times must be
> excluded when looking for solution.
LOL. Only communism programmatically excluded nationalism. Communism
died and brave ex-commies (with a few exceptions like Slovenia)
switched back to nationalism ... some (arguably) to nazionalism.
Welcome in club! Note that the Russians must accept 2 rapes - in the
aftermath of WW1 and Cold War. Let's hope they gonna respond only by
military means ... :-)
Paris Hilton
"captain." <spammer...@now.net> wrote in message
news:I7r7i.66218$g63.61492@edtnps82...
You can buy that in the US. Go to Switzerland and try some Sprungli.
Vladimir Makarenko
It is easy and I guess natural from Euro view to blame Germans - they
committed unthinkable crime - started to behave inside Europe as the
rest of Euros behaved only outside - the same way as today the places
for stag parties from WEurope are in E Europe, - one cannot behave
himself like that in homestead Yorkshire. Compatriots will start to call
you a pig.
Not only dumb Germans broke the thug rule number one: do not rob, rape
and kill on your block but they got quite a few around them invited to
join the party. What was gratefully accepted. And when the party got
crashed by Soviets and US - the usual - Europe found a scapegoat -
"Germans did it!!!". Reminds how the gang of hoodlums turns on a leader
when in police custody.
I don't however think that this "story" of history will last much
longer, it is started to crumble already today.
VM.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> "captain." <spammersmust...@now.net> wrote in message
>
> news:I7r7i.66218$g63.61492@edtnps82...
>
>
>
> > <vkarla...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:1180249156.3...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> >> On May 21, 2:02 pm, "Lancelot Potresselli" <Potresse...@comcast.net.>
>
>>>>The best in the world. I fly over twice weekly to buy some
>>>>bars. "Yummy yummy,polkadummy."
>
> >> do you buy?
>
> > swiss mostly: lindt and toblerone. also, some belgium.
>
> You can buy that in the US. Go to Switzerland and try some Sprungli.
>
Err, sorry to interrupt your discussion, but I was asking Lancelot
Potresselli about Polish candy, not your crap.
Paris Hilton
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180770738.6...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
They just dip kielbasa in melted chocolate. You would also like some rainbow
candy sprinkles on top.