Boris Viper
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
No, that's not a creature from Hui's imagination -- Boriss Vipers was a
renowned art historian and theoretician at the University of Latvia,
his heyday in the 1930s; his father was a historian. While I've learned
that Vipers came to Latvia in 1924, I can't find out whence he came --
can anybody help?
I'm only doing this because GK de Montréal asked (successfully) about
_chastushkas_... my other question is... strike me down dead, but I
cannot think of a good word for "augstskola," something less cumbersome
than "higher education institution." Is there such a word, Gintai?
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Robert Yurevich Wipper, his son Boris ending up at Moscow University.
Anybody know anything more?
/P
lora...@cs.com
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> No, that's not a creature from Hui's imagination --
Of course not. Such creatures are more typically categorized bt me as
russian chapchuks.
> Boriss Vipers was a
> renowned art historian and theoretician at the University of Latvia,
> his heyday in the 1930s; his father was a historian. While I've learned
> that Vipers came to Latvia in 1924, I can't find out whence he came --
> can anybody help?
The great bardak probably.
> I'm only doing this because GK de Montréal asked (successfully) about
> _chastushkas_...
Another strike against both you and kango-montreal boy. We have already
had our allowed quota of russkie theorists.
> my other question is... strike me down dead, but I
> cannot think of a good word for "augstskola," something less cumbersome
> than "higher education institution." Is there such a word, Gintai?
You are asking kango-montreal boy about Latvian?
I thought you said you lived there and were married to a Latvian (!)
lora...@cs.com
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> I should have tried the Germanic spelling -- I assume that Robert is
> Robert Yurevich Wipper, his son Boris ending up at Moscow University.
See? You should have asked your momma, first.
> Anybody know anything more?
> /P
Yes, I know that you post silly russkie posts.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
education in English, duh.
As far as Wipper/Vipers and the "bardak" -- sorry, Hui, but the man
published a seminal work on _Latvian_ art in 1927 (Latvju māksla_),
besides being the author of numerous works on Renaissance art. What you
don't seem to understand is that it doesn't require Latvian blood to
contribute to Latvia, and that influences cross borders -- I already
mentioned that Šmits spent two decades in Vladivostok, after teaching
Russian in Beijing. Many of the major figures in Latvian history and
culture studied and worked in Russia (e.g., Barons and Valdemārs), and
I'm sorry if that distresses you for some perverse reason. These facets
are innumerable -- Latvian modernism in painting, for example, can be
traced to the encounters with French Cubism by refugees at the gallery
of Morozov and Shchukin in Moscow.
Vysu lobu,
/P
lora...@cs.com
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> I'm asking Gintas for a good general term for institutions of higher
> education in English, duh.
As though that idiot might know Latvian 'augstkola', eh?
> As far as Wipper/Vipers and the "bardak" -- sorry, Hui, but the man
> published a seminal work on _Latvian_ art in 1927 (Latvju mâksla_),
> besides being the author of numerous works on Renaissance art.
What do you mean, "sorry"?
Any 'Yurevich' wandering around Moskow is clearly a sorry russian
thing.
You, posting, contrived crap about such a chapchuk is even more sorry.
> What you
> don't seem to understand is that it doesn't require Latvian blood to
> contribute to Latvia, and that influences cross borders -- I already
> mentioned that Ðmits spent two decades in Vladivostok, after teaching
> Russian in Beijing.
Who cares? Individuals are individuals; they do as they wish.
I recently posted information regarding another 'Famous Communist Now
Dead'. Do you wish to claim him as one of your own tribe? And why
shouldn't you?
How about Kononov? Another master of the russian arts?
> Many of the major figures in Latvian history and
> culture studied and worked in Russia (e.g., Barons and Valdemârs), and
> I'm sorry if that distresses you for some perverse reason.
There's the difference; previously, it was hardly possible to avoid
russian colonialism when all three nations were occupied by the prior
version of the current russian fashist empire. Lithuania was almost
destroyed by your famous russian 'culturists'.
> These facets
> are innumerable -- Latvian modernism in painting, for example, can be
> traced to the encounters with French Cubism by refugees at the gallery
> of Morozov and Shchukin in Moscow.
Well.. yes. Detritus of russian culture still litter our Baltic
landscape. That much is certain; the Estonians have asked for 16
Billion from your artistic russians to clean things up a bit.
Or, perhaps, we can get your Morozovs and Churkins to shovel up some of
that 32 billion cubic meters of russian produced radioactivity that
still lie on the Estonian coast - courtesy of russian culture?
Enough already, eh?
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
> Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> > I'm asking Gintas for a good general term for institutions of higher
> > education in English, duh.
>
> As though that idiot might know Latvian 'augstkola', eh?
Unlike you, Gintas is not an idiot. He knows language(s) well -- and
he's had no trouble following Latvian, as you have.
> > As far as Wipper/Vipers and the "bardak" -- sorry, Hui, but the man
> > published a seminal work on _Latvian_ art in 1927 (Latvju mâksla_),
> > besides being the author of numerous works on Renaissance art.
>
> What do you mean, "sorry"?
> Any 'Yurevich' wandering around Moskow is clearly a sorry russian
> thing.
> You, posting, contrived crap about such a chapchuk is even more sorry.
Huh? Sorry, but not a few Russian academics have made incalculable
contributions to Baltic culture. I mentioned a major one before --
Toporov.
> > What you
> > don't seem to understand is that it doesn't require Latvian blood to
> > contribute to Latvia, and that influences cross borders -- I already
> > mentioned that Ðmits spent two decades in Vladivostok, after teaching
> > Russian in Beijing.
>
> Who cares? Individuals are individuals; they do as they wish.
> I recently posted information regarding another 'Famous Communist Now
> Dead'. Do you wish to claim him as one of your own tribe? And why
> shouldn't you?
Individuals form institutions. Šmits came from Vladivostok to become
the vice-rector of the University when it was founded; in that
tradition, Staburova continued Sinology at that same institution until
recently.
Who cares? Well, I care about whether Latvia is educated or not.
Between the wars, Latvia had more students per capita than any other
country in Europe -- in 1932, 45 per 10 000 inhabitants (compare 20 in
Germany or 9 in Great Britain).
What drew people like Wipper to Latvia was oppression in their
homelands and opportunity here. That's what made Latvia great. It is,
in fact, what made the United States great, too -- I don't think
anybody can quantify what European refugees did for American academia.
> How about Kononov? Another master of the russian arts?
This is where you enter the inarable inane, sir. What does Kononov have
to do with this topic? Shall I mention Arājs every time you mention
Latvians? That's what your logic can be reduced to.
> > Many of the major figures in Latvian history and
> > culture studied and worked in Russia (e.g., Barons and Valdemârs), and
> > I'm sorry if that distresses you for some perverse reason.
>
> There's the difference; previously, it was hardly possible to avoid
> russian colonialism when all three nations were occupied by the prior
> version of the current russian fashist empire. Lithuania was almost
> destroyed by your famous russian 'culturists'.
The Republic of Latvia didn't exist prior to 1918-1920, and so can't
have been occupied.
What is it you wish to say, Hui? You already spat upon architecture,
and I made a feeble attempt to inform you of the fact that "foreign
influence" lies at the root of modern Latvian architecture.
When Latvians came into their own, they did so through education and
creativity -- the two are intimately connected. Just hating the Germans
and/or the Russians did nothing but multiply sullen slaves, Hui.
Of course it wasn't possible to avoid "Russian colonialism" -- just as
it's not possible to avoid globalism today. You can either attack the
Kentucky Fried Chicken with rocks, or adapt.
> > These facets
> > are innumerable -- Latvian modernism in painting, for example, can be
> > traced to the encounters with French Cubism by refugees at the gallery
> > of Morozov and Shchukin in Moscow.
>
> Well.. yes. Detritus of russian culture still litter our Baltic
> landscape. That much is certain; the Estonians have asked for 16
> Billion from your artistic russians to clean things up a bit.
>
> Or, perhaps, we can get your Morozovs and Churkins to shovel up some of
> that 32 billion cubic meters of russian produced radioactivity that
> still lie on the Estonian coast - courtesy of russian culture?
>
> Enough already, eh?
More inanity. Neither Morozov nor Shchukin (not "Churkin") produced any
radioactivity -- they were both Moscow merchants whose collections form
the core of Russia's modern art collection; their works were
nationalized by the Bolsheviks and they died in exile.
I far prefer many a Russian to _ūdensgalvas_ like you.
Vysu lobu,
/P
dang
Hint to Cedrinov.
Don't kiss the asses of your russkie statues
in the winter. Ya might have to stay there
until late spring.
On the other hand....
Best - - Henry
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
pithy spittle? Where did I kiss a Russkie statue's ass, Henry -- pray
tell. Ain't it cold in ethnographically correct Lithuanian Colorado?
/P
lora...@cs.com
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
"Desparation", peetey?
Is that what you call it when I dance happily upon your red artistic
dvinskian innards?
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Nope. Maybe you call it "desparation" -- I call it desperation.
/P
dang
Come on now Petka.
Let us have another bit of teeny-bop
idol yrics.
You and John can show a bit more of your
intellectual age.
Best - - Henry
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
intellectual age? How do you do that, Dang? Drop your pants? Dang!
/P
Vladimir Makarenko
«Pas de deux»
news:1118599609....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I cannot think of a good word for "augstskola," something less
> cumbersome
> than "higher education institution." Is there such a word, Gintai?
Well, Pēteri, translating specialized terminology is the cauchemar of us
translators.
In British (also Australian) usage, education is generally described in
three levels:
primary, secondary and tertiary.
In Lithuanian, the three corresponding levels are pradžios mokykla
(literally: commencement school),
vidurinė mokykla (literally: middle school) and aukštoji mokykla
(literally: suprerior school).
For the third one, I deliberately avoid saying "high(er) school" because
of the connotations it has in the
English-speaking world, especially North America.
I suspect Latvian follows this pattern also.
GK de Montréal
J. Anderson
"Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118599609....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> cannot think of a good word for "augstskola," something less cumbersome
> than "higher education institution."
Augstskola naturally comes from German Hochschule, which we have in Swedish
and Finnish as högskola / korkeakoulu. It is customary here to translate it
into English as university, see for example
http://www.worldoflearning.com/views/entry/FI/5/13 (Tampereen Teknillinen
Korkeakoulu = Tampere University of Technology) or
http://www.chalmers.se/en/ (Chalmers Tekniska Högskola = Chalmers University
of Technology).
On the other hand, if we're talking of an ekonomikas augstskola, there seems
to be a tradition to use the expression 'School of Economics'. Such is the
case with Riigas ekonomikas augstskola = Stockholm School of Economics in
Riga: http://www.sseriga.edu.lv/ Probably the lower status of 'school' in
this case is balanced by the international reputation of such prestigious
institutions as the London School of Economics.
What kind of augstskola are you having problems with, Peeteri?
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
institution founded by the Social Democrats in 1920 and closed by
Ulmanis in 1934. Among other things, it included a radical, avant-garde
alternative to the Academy of Art (modernists like Liberts, Suta, and
Vidbergs taught there). I lean to "Rīga People's University," but I'm
not quite comfortable with it...
Thanks,
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
little points... when do you use "fund" vs. "foundation"? "Fonds" is
usually translated as "foundation" -- agreed? I noticed your use of
"agrarian," Jon -- I find "agrarian reform" and "land reform" to be
perfectly synonymous -- agreed? And what do you call our "Farmers'
Union" ("Zemnieku savienība") in Finnish and Swedish -- are you using
the same word, "agrarian"? Would you dispense with "peasants" in all
instances of "zemnieki," because of the connotation? I also have a bit
of a problem with the way "tautas" is used in Latvian -- it is
sometimes "popular" (e.g., "Tautas fronte") and sometimes "people's"
(e.g., "Tautas partija," or the "diet" following the invasion --
"Tautas Saeima") -- do you have any idea if there's a hard and fast
rule for this? A similar problem comes with when to use "workers'" or
"labo[u]r"...
Any comments would be much appreciated.
Regards,
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
few meanings; it often means "bourgeois," esp. if it's from the lips of
a Social Democrat. But a frequent use is to denote parties other than
the extreme right and _minus_ the socialists and Social Democrats;
mainstream parties, in other words. The word disappears in the Soviet
period (because it's usually replaced by "buržuāzisks") -- but I'm
still having trouble finding a good English term. "Bourgeois" works now
and then, but sometimes it doesn't (in many cases it sounds negative).
Any ideas? A "pilsonis" is a "citizen," of course.
/P
Dmitry
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> And one last question, sorry -- in Latvian, the term "pilsonisks" has a
> few meanings; it often means "bourgeois," esp. if it's from the lips of
> a Social Democrat. But a frequent use is to denote parties other than
> the extreme right and _minus_ the socialists and Social Democrats;
> mainstream parties, in other words. The word disappears in the Soviet
> period (because it's usually replaced by "burþuâzisks") -- but I'm
> still having trouble finding a good English term. "Bourgeois" works now
> and then, but sometimes it doesn't (in many cases it sounds negative).
> Any ideas? A "pilsonis" is a "citizen," of course.
>
> /P
Would "national" be any good, or have you thought about this one
already?
Dmitry
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
I was trying to find more info on my granddad using all possible
spellings. He was lecturing in maths and related subjects in Reezekne
and Daugavpils in pre-WWII period, so I thought he might be mentioned
somewhere, but couldn't find anything. I even tried word "augstskola"
together with both towns, but with no result. It is sometimes
frustrating that I know very little about my grandparents. Two of them
died before I was born, one was too old to get to know properly and the
only one I knew well told me very little probably in fear that I can
spill the beans somewhere at school. Everyone feared Big Soviet
Brother at the time. However, she managed to tell me enough sketches
about their life in independent Latvia, Soviet invasion and so on when
I was bit older.
«Pas de deux»
As you know, context is king. We bring to play all the previous reading
we have ever done, which gives us a 'feel' for what the word really
means in the source language in a certain context, and what the best way
is of rendering it in the target language in a similar context. As your
examples show, the questions can at times be thorny.
With a word like "pilsonisks", there is another factor at play: foreign
influence. Words in language B can start having their meanings
stretched to cover more of the same ground as a corresponding term in
language A, especiall if there is a lot of translating going on fro A to
B. I think German "bürgerlich" may have had some influence on
"pilsonisks". In some contexts expressions with the words "civil" and
"civic" in them may be good, unemotional translations if they feel
right.
> When do you use "fund" vs. "foundation"? "Fonds" is usually translated
> as "foundation" -- agreed?
I would agree. Also, many of these things have official names in
English that can be found by trying the alternatives on Google.
> I find "agrarian reform" and "land reform" to be perfectly
> synonymous -- agreed?
Pretty well. Because "land reform" was about farms, not urban areas.
>And what do you call our "Farmers' Union" ("Zemnieku savienība") in
>Finnish and Swedish -- are you using the same word, >"agrarian"? Would
>you dispense with "peasants" in all instances of "zemnieki," because of
>the connotation?
For sure. If Iowa and Alberta and New South Wales farmers aren't
"peasants", then neither are Ukrainian or Lithuanian farmers and
agriculturalists; they are primary producers.
Yes, "tautas" in Latvian, "tautos" in Lithuanian, means "of the nationa"
so it can be rendered "popular" on some occasions, "people's" on others,
and "national" on yet others. Depends how it sits with the rest of the
English translation.
Ditto for when to use "workers'" or "labo[u]r" as translations of
darbnieku/darbininku.
Regards
Gintautas Kaminskas
Montréal
lora...@cs.com
«Pas de deux» wrote:
> Doing a big translation, Pçteri? :-)
>
> As you know, context is king. We bring to play all the previous reading
> we have ever done, which gives us a 'feel' for what the word really
> means in the source language in a certain context, and what the best way
> is of rendering it in the target language in a similar context. As your
> examples show, the questions can at times be thorny.
>
> With a word like "pilsonisks", there is another factor at play: foreign
> influence.
And that's why I call you an idiot.
The best context for any word is its entire language.
So don't go 'cogitatin yer little head' over words and languages that
you two do not understand.
This same caution has been poreviously extended to the corrupt
'linguist', hole-man. Having the same caution being issued to you,
should give you some inkling as to what direction you are heading.
> Words in language B can start having their meanings
> stretched to cover more of the same ground as a corresponding term in
> language A, especiall if there is a lot of translating going on fro A to
> B. I think German "bürgerlich" may have had some influence on
> "pilsonisks".
You are a moron. Universal concepts require contemporary definitions
('words').
Is it also your belief that Acropolis stems from the modern German word
"bürgerlich" and concept? If not, explain why not. If yes, explain
when you fell on your head and why you cannot stop blubbering idiocies.
> In some contexts expressions with the words "civil" and
> "civic" in them may be good, unemotional translations if they feel
> right.
??
No, idiot. "Civil" and "civic' come, directly, from the Latin
"civitates".
> > When do you use "fund" vs. "foundation"? "Fonds" is usually translated
> > as "foundation" -- agreed?
> I would agree. Also, many of these things have official names in
> English that can be found by trying the alternatives on Google.
??? No. Wrong again. 'Fonds' is 'fund'. You two are stupid. (Some sort
of new klaun act?)
> > I find "agrarian reform" and "land reform" to be perfectly
> > synonymous -- agreed?
>
> Pretty well. Because "land reform" was about farms, not urban areas.
No. Wrong again. Land is not necessary for agrarian reform. The
Belgians raise endive in racks in urban warehouses.
> >And what do you call our "Farmers' Union" ("Zemnieku savienîba") in
> >Finnish and Swedish -- are you using the same word, >"agrarian"?
What do you mean "our"? One of you is russian, and the other is
possibly australian.
> > Would
> >you dispense with "peasants" in all instances of "zemnieki," because of
> >the connotation?
>
> For sure. If Iowa and Alberta and New South Wales farmers aren't
> "peasants", then neither are Ukrainian or Lithuanian farmers and
> agriculturalists; they are primary producers.
Both of your mommas could have been 'kulyakii', though.
> Yes, "tautas" in Latvian, "tautos" in Lithuanian, means "of the nationa"
> so it can be rendered "popular" on some occasions, "people's" on others,
> and "national" on yet others. Depends how it sits with the rest of the
> English translation.
> Ditto for when to use "workers'" or "labo[u]r" as translations of
> darbnieku/darbininku.
"Labo[u]r" is unknown in Latvian.
Adjust your oversized niebors and try again.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
lora...@cs.com wrote:
> «Pas de deux» wrote:
> > Doing a big translation, Pçteri? :-)
> >
> > As you know, context is king. We bring to play all the previous reading
> > we have ever done, which gives us a 'feel' for what the word really
> > means in the source language in a certain context, and what the best way
> > is of rendering it in the target language in a similar context. As your
> > examples show, the questions can at times be thorny.
> >
> > With a word like "pilsonisks", there is another factor at play: foreign
> > influence.
>
> And that's why I call you an idiot.
> The best context for any word is its entire language.
> So don't go 'cogitatin yer little head' over words and languages that
> you two do not understand.
[Much mind-bogglingly idiotic garbage snipped.]
"Pilsonisks" is indeed based on the German "bürgerlich," nejēga --
"pilsonis" was one of Kronvalds' neologisms (a translation of
"Bürger") and dates to 1869. The other forms are more recent --
Kronvalds used "pilsietība" rather than "pilsonība" for "Bürgertum."
Mīlenbahs criticized "pilsonis" as nin improper derivation.
You seem to wallow in insufferable ignorance more and more by the hour,
Hui.
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
Erratum:
> Mīlenbahs criticized "pilsonis" as nin improper derivation.
"Mīlenbahs criticized 'pilsonis' as an improper derivation."
/P
«Pas de deux»
news:1118714376.0...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
«Pas de deux» wrote:
> With a word like "pilsonisks", there is another factor at play:
> foreign influence.
Lorad: And that's why I call you an idiot.
> Words in language B can start having their meanings stretched to cover
> more of the same ground as a corresponding term in
> language A, especiall if there is a lot of translating going on fro A
> to B. I think German "bürgerlich" may have had some influence on
> "pilsonisks".
Lorad: You are a moron. Universal concepts require contemporary
definitions ('words').
Please don't be so pitifully stupid. Read a few books, quote a few
sources. No language lives/grows/develops in isolation.
> In some contexts expressions with the words "civil" and
> "civic" in them may be good, unemotional translations if they feel
> right.
Lorad: No, idiot. "Civil" and "civic' come, directly, from the Latin
"civitates".
One translates MEANING, dear boy, not just mere WORDS. Not
surprisingly, you seem to understand about as much about translation as
you do about etymolgy, namley, Nilfisk.
> > When do you use "fund" vs. "foundation"? "Fonds" is usually
> > translated as "foundation" -- agreed?
> I would agree. Also, many of these things have official names in
> English that can be found by trying the alternatives on Google.
Lorad: ??? No. Wrong again. 'Fonds' is 'fund'. You two are stupid.
(Some sort of new klaun act?)
Eppure, si muove. Whether you like it or not, o unenlightened one,
"Fonds" is usually translated as "foundation" .
> > I find "agrarian reform" and "land reform" to be perfectly
> > synonymous -- agreed?
> Pretty well. Because "land reform" was about farms, not urban areas.
Lorad: No. Wrong again. Land is not necessary for agrarian reform.
The Belgians raise endive in racks in urban warehouses.
Not even funny, Uno - just sad. Do you even know what THINKING is?
> >And what do you call our "Farmers' Union" ("Zemnieku savienîba") in
> >Finnish and Swedish -- are you using the same word, >"agrarian"?
> > Would you dispense with "peasants" in all instances of "zemnieki,"
> > because of
> >the connotation?
>
> For sure. If Iowa and Alberta and New South Wales farmers aren't
> "peasants", then neither are Ukrainian or Lithuanian farmers and
> agriculturalists; they are primary producers.
Lorad: Both of your mommas could have been 'kulyakii', though.
This is your lucky day, nejęga. Divine intervention just stopped me
from saying something very unkind about you and yor ruskaja bliat mama.
> Yes, "tautas" in Latvian, "tautos" in Lithuanian, means "of the
> nationa"
> so it can be rendered "popular" on some occasions, "people's" on
> others,
> and "national" on yet others. Depends how it sits with the rest of
> the
> English translation.
> Ditto for when to use "workers'" or "labo[u]r" as translations of
> darbnieku/darbininku.
Lorad: "Labo[u]r" is unknown in Latvian.
What are you trying to tell us, chuj - that "labo[u]r" is not a Latvian
word? Hands up any SCB reader that thought it was.
Lorad: Adjust your oversized niebors and try again.
You're all on your own in your lonely psychotic state with that one. No
one can follow the workings of your mind.
GK de Montréal
[or, if you prefer to believe Valdis/Jonhillr/Lstrad/Lorad/Uno chuj/Arno
Ruskij (are so!)]
GK de pinko ruskij-lovin Moskau puppet foreign klauns in the pay of KGB
froggy-lovin subversionist
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Rēzekne before the war, Dmitry, he was almost certainly connected to
what were then the Teachers' Institutes (Valsts Rēzeknes/Daugavpils
skolotāju institūti; the institution here became the Pedagogical
Institute under the Soviets and then the Pedagogical University,
shortly after the restoration of independence -- it's now Daugavpils
University; I taught there 1992-3). There were also minor smaller
institutions (my grandmother ran a private secretarial school, for
example). Only the teachers' training college offered higher education
in Rēzekne; the current institution dates only to 1993. Another
possibility would be that he taught at a secondary school (some of
these were and are at a college level, really).
Thank you for the comments, Gintai! Yes, I'm buried in a massive
translation mess.
Visu labu,
/P
J. Anderson
"Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118677941.3...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I doubt it would have been university level. More probably it was the
equivalent of a concept that has been very successful in Scandinavia. It
originated in Denmark in the 19th century and spread from there to Germany
and to the Nordic countries. The original name was 'folkshøjskole', in
German 'Volkshochschule'. It was (and is) an institution, where people
regardless of age or formal previous education can study a multitude of
theoretical and practical subjects.
When Imants came to Germany in 2001, he began by taking a one-year course in
German (5 hours a day!) at the Volkshochschule in Heidelberg. And during my
studies, I was working as a teacher at a similar institution in Turku/Åbo.
If 'tautas augstskola' is 'Volkshochschule', there is really no good word
for it in English. Let's see what the Scandinavian institutions themselves
are using on their English webpages: http://www.folkhogskola.nu/ OK, it
seems to be 'Folk High School' -- not very satisfactory.
Could 'People's Academy' be a solution? It's a bit less pompous than
'university' but clearly more appropriate than 'high school'.
J. Anderson
"Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118680939.0...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> And I'll add another request for aid, if I may (Gintai, John) -- a few
> little points... when do you use "fund" vs. "foundation"? "Fonds" is
> usually translated as "foundation" -- agreed?
If there is only one word in Latvian ('fonds') for the two meanings
(fund/foundation), then you should translate is as 'fund' if the 'fonds'
mainly has to do with money, and as 'foundation' if the 'fonds' also has
other activities (usually non-commercial).
> I noticed your use of
> "agrarian," Jon -- I find "agrarian reform" and "land reform" to be
> perfectly synonymous -- agreed?
Yep.
> And what do you call our "Farmers'
> Union" ("Zemnieku savienība") in Finnish and Swedish -- are you using
> the same word, "agrarian"?
Their sister party in Sweden used to be called 'Bondeförbundet' = literally
'farmers' union' (they changed the name to 'Centerpartiet' in the 60s). In
Finland the corresponding party carried the name 'Maalaisliitto', which
literally means 'rural people's union'. Since there is no word in Swedish
matching 'maalainen', it was translated as 'Agrarförbundet', i.e. the
'agrarian union', which was incorrect, because a 'maalainen' is not
necessarily an agrarian, s/he could be anybody living outside the cities.
('Maalaisliitto' later became 'Keskusta' = 'The Centre'.
> Would you dispense with "peasants" in all
> instances of "zemnieki," because of the connotation?
Peasant definitely sounds somehow more 'proletarian'.
> I also have a bit
> of a problem with the way "tautas" is used in Latvian -- it is
> sometimes "popular" (e.g., "Tautas fronte") and sometimes "people's"
> (e.g., "Tautas partija," or the "diet" following the invasion --
> "Tautas Saeima") -- do you have any idea if there's a hard and fast
> rule for this? A similar problem comes with when to use "workers'" or
> "labo[u]r"...
This is a typical problem when words such as Volk, folk, kansa, tautas have
to be translated into English. It gets even worse with the adjectives:
völkisch, folklig etc. There simply is no good equivalent. I would use
'people's' rather than 'popular'. But, like Dmitry pointed out, sometimes
'national' might be appropriate. But in the saeima case definitely
'people's' -- that's also how the Commies would have called it in English. .
J. Anderson
"Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118681734....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You really have found the traditionally difficult cases, haven't you! We
used to have perfectly usable expressions for 'city-dweller' in Finnish and
Swedish: 'porvari'/'borgare' (from German 'Bürger'). But through the
expression 'bourgeoisie' they became loaded with political bias. In Germany,
'Bürger' is OK and simply means 'member of the society' (be that city,
'Land' or country).
If the political connotation is decisive, 'borgerliga partier' in the Nordic
countries are all non-Socialist parties, with the Greens hovering somewhere
between the two main camps. With the Social Democrats being nowadays in the
political centre, the classification has become obsolete, but we have been
using the expression 'ei-sosialistinen'/'icke-socialistisk' to describe the
'bourgeois' parties -- mainly because not all non-Socialist parties like
being called 'porvarillinen'/'borgerlig'.
Martin
"J. Anderson" <fer...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:d8m3l7$jvo$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
>
> "Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1118677941.3...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > This would be "Rīgas Tautas augstskola" -- a university level
> > institution founded by the Social Democrats in 1920 and closed by
> > Ulmanis in 1934. Among other things, it included a radical, avant-garde
> > alternative to the Academy of Art (modernists like Liberts, Suta, and
> > Vidbergs taught there). I lean to "Rīga People's University," but I'm
> > not quite comfortable with it...
>
> I doubt it would have been university level. More probably it was the
> equivalent of a concept that has been very successful in Scandinavia. It
> originated in Denmark in the 19th century and spread from there to Germany
> and to the Nordic countries. The original name was 'folkshøjskole', in
> German 'Volkshochschule'. It was (and is) an institution, where people
> regardless of age or formal previous education can study a multitude of
> theoretical and practical subjects.
In the UK, such an institution is called "Open University".
>
> When Imants came to Germany in 2001, he began by taking a one-year course
in
> German (5 hours a day!) at the Volkshochschule in Heidelberg. And during
my
> studies, I was working as a teacher at a similar institution in Turku/Åbo.
>
> If 'tautas augstskola' is 'Volkshochschule', there is really no good word
> for it in English. Let's see what the Scandinavian institutions themselves
> are using on their English webpages: http://www.folkhogskola.nu/ OK, it
> seems to be 'Folk High School' -- not very satisfactory.
>
> Could 'People's Academy' be a solution? It's a bit less pompous than
> 'university' but clearly more appropriate than 'high school'.
'People's Academy' sounds like something you would find in Communist China.
How about 'College'?
Regards,
Martin
Fingal
wrote:
>
>"J. Anderson" <fer...@mail.com> wrote in message
>news:d8m3l7$jvo$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
>>
>> "P?teris Cedri?? (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1118677941.3...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > This would be "R?gas Tautas augstskola" -- a university level
>> > institution founded by the Social Democrats in 1920 and closed by
>> > Ulmanis in 1934. Among other things, it included a radical, avant-garde
>> > alternative to the Academy of Art (modernists like Liberts, Suta, and
>> > Vidbergs taught there). I lean to "R?ga People's University," but I'm
>> > not quite comfortable with it...
>>
>> I doubt it would have been university level. More probably it was the
>> equivalent of a concept that has been very successful in Scandinavia. It
>> originated in Denmark in the 19th century and spread from there to Germany
>> and to the Nordic countries. The original name was 'folksh?jskole', in
>> German 'Volkshochschule'. It was (and is) an institution, where people
>> regardless of age or formal previous education can study a multitude of
>> theoretical and practical subjects.
>
>In the UK, such an institution is called "Open University".
>
>>
>> When Imants came to Germany in 2001, he began by taking a one-year course
>in
>> German (5 hours a day!) at the Volkshochschule in Heidelberg. And during
>my
>> studies, I was working as a teacher at a similar institution in Turku/?bo.
>>
>> If 'tautas augstskola' is 'Volkshochschule', there is really no good word
>> for it in English. Let's see what the Scandinavian institutions themselves
>> are using on their English webpages: http://www.folkhogskola.nu/ OK, it
>> seems to be 'Folk High School' -- not very satisfactory.
>>
>> Could 'People's Academy' be a solution? It's a bit less pompous than
>> 'university' but clearly more appropriate than 'high school'.
>
>'People's Academy' sounds like something you would find in Communist China.
>How about 'College'?
>
How about "Community College?"
Martin
"Fingal" <fing...@mail.ru> wrote in message
news:hfbta15qlbdqpanqv...@4ax.com...
That sounds like a reasonable name.
Regards,
Martin
J. Anderson
"Martin" <mart...@joymail.com> wrote in message
news:_9yre.16403$F7.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
The problem is that these might be anachronisms. One would need to know more
about the 'tautas augstskola' to be able to translate the name properly.
«Pas de deux»
>> word
>>> for it in English. Let's see what the Scandinavian institutions
>>> themselves
>>> are using on their English webpages: http://www.folkhogskola.nu/ OK,
>>> it
>>> seems to be 'Folk High School' -- not very satisfactory.
>>>
>>> Could 'People's Academy' be a solution? It's a bit less pompous than
>>> 'university' but clearly more appropriate than 'high school'.
>>
>>'People's Academy' sounds like something you would find in Communist
>>China.
>>How about 'College'?
>>
>
> How about "Community College?"
Good for you, Fingal. "Community College" gets my vote.
PS Those who are interested might check out the peer group assistance
function (translation questions) on http://www.proz.com/kudoz/
GK de Montréal
Fingal
>GK de Montr?al
>
Tout un plaisir!
«Pas de deux»
>> > How about "Community College?"
>>
>> That sounds like a reasonable name.
>
> The problem is that these might be anachronisms. One would need to
> know more
> about the 'tautas augstskola' to be able to translate the name
> properly.
There is always the option of giving the full name in Latvian first,
followed in brackets by [name of place] community college, with the
"community college" left without caps to show it is being used loosely,
and further mentions of the place in the text would be in the form
"[name of place] community college".
GK de Montréal
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Just a note on Dmitry's remark on "national" -- in some cases, yes...
the trouble is that that word's already (and always) deep in a wretched
mire when translating Latvian history, since one needs to figure out
exactly what's meant for each of the very many uses of the term, some
nuanced and some not, and if the meaning is complex -- decide between
words that _seem_ to be different in only a trivial way but aren't; for
instance, it's complicated by the frequent use of "national" instead of
"nationalist" when "nationalist" is meant (in Latvian) and then it gets
even more complicated by the use of "national minority," etc. Then add
the fact that English doesn't easily allow for the simple distinction
between "latviska" and "latviešu" (e.g., "latviska Latvija,"
"latviešu Latvija") and words like "latvietība" and "latviskums"
sound horribly stilted if you try to render them in English. All of
these problems apply to "tauta" and "tautiskums," etc., too, depending
on the context. Then there's the problem with quite paradoxical
ideologies and the way language was abused in them -- the Ulmanis
regime stressed both ethnocentric nationalism and "national unity," for
example, employing hackneyed slogans like "Latvijā saule spīd pāri
visiem." Striking the right note is quite difficult without revising
the text, which -- as a translator -- I of course cannot do!
Vsego horoshego,
/P
J. Anderson
"Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118749254.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> the Ulmanis
> regime stressed both ethnocentric nationalism and "national unity," for
> example, employing hackneyed slogans like "Latvijā saule spīd pāri
> visiem."
Our 'Ulmanis in spe', Vihtori Kosola, said "The soil of our land does not
ask what language the ploughman speaks". This was in the heyday of language
feuds between Finnish- and Swedish-speaking Finns, and the leader of the
unsuccessful pseudo-Fascist rebellion didn't want to lose any
Swedish-speaking supporters.
Dmitry
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> If your grandfather was lecturing at a higher level in Daugavpils and
> Rçzekne before the war, Dmitry, he was almost certainly connected to
> what were then the Teachers' Institutes (Valsts Rçzeknes/Daugavpils
> skolotâju institûti; the institution here became the Pedagogical
> Institute under the Soviets and then the Pedagogical University,
> shortly after the restoration of independence -- it's now Daugavpils
> University; I taught there 1992-3).
You must be right. My grandmother, who was one of his students, was
qualified teacher. I have also met several elderly people, when I was
young, who said that my grandfather was their teacher and they were all
qualified as teachers in Latvia before the occupation. The reason I
thought he taught maths was that I've got his handwritten books full of
formulas and electronic diagrams with lots of notes written in German
and English. He also was a violin player and conductor, I've got some
artifacts in Riiga (violin and conducting stick). He was educated in
St.Petersburg as engineer, specialising in building bridges. He was
quite multitalented person, who met his death somewhere in Poland or
Byelarus in 1946 during deportation from Germany back to USSR. Nobody
knows who murdered him, but when he was found dead the watch was no
longer on his wrist.
> There were also minor smaller
> institutions (my grandmother ran a private secretarial school, for
> example). Only the teachers' training college offered higher education
> in Rçzekne; the current institution dates only to 1993. Another
> possibility would be that he taught at a secondary school (some of
> these were and are at a college level, really).
No, I'm quite sure that he taught at HE level.
> Visu labu,
> /P
Many thanks for your information.
lora...@cs.com
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> Dang, Dang! Where did you see "idol yrics"? Can you show us your
> intellectual age? How do you do that, Dang? Drop your pants? Dang!
Petrushka, enough already..
Check fellow hole-man's red pantaloons for satisfaction first.
lora...@cs.com
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> lora...@cs.com wrote:
> > «Pas de deux» wrote:
> > > Doing a big translation, Pçteri? :-)
Correct. He is probably translating SCB into russkie again.
> > > With a word like "pilsonisks", there is another factor at play: foreign
> > > influence.
> >
> > And that's why I call you an idiot.
> > The best context for any word is its entire language.
> > So don't go 'cogitatin yer little head' over words and languages that
> > you two do not understand.
>
> [Much mind-bogglingly idiotic garbage snipped.]
What mind boggling idiot number two? GK's?
> "Pilsonisks" is indeed based on the German "bürgerlich," nejega --
> "pilsonis" was one of Kronvalds' neologisms (a translation of
> "Bürger") and dates to 1869. The other forms are more recent --
> Kronvalds used "pilsietiba" rather than "pilsoniba" for "Bürgertum."
> Milenbahs criticized "pilsonis" as nin improper derivation.
You are completely stupid. Both you and all of your fake alter ego
puppets. No matter what pantaloons you attempt to wear, all of your
puppets suffer from the same debilitated brain and exhibit the same
unique stupidities. (that's why puppets fail to evolve)
Thus you prove that you are all cloned russian agents.
The Latvian word 'pils' is the equivalent of the (ancient) Greek word
'polis'.
Latvian hill-forts predated any German ones. They predate the existence
of Germans.
Both Baltic and Greek words describing their towns predate any type of
German that your dysfunctional puppet brains might attempt to spew
forth. In unison - or not.
I don't care that you might be stupid (I rather appreciate stupid
russian agents), but please do not attempt to mis-lead the SCB public
nor insult Balts who know otherwise with your hateful anti-Baltic
propaganda. The facts are clear.
Using your imbecilic belief that 'Acropolis' stems from the modern
German word
"bürgerlich" we would have to have Pericles building the famous
marbled 'Alt Bürgerlich'in Athens - but only after having used his
russian time machine.
You are stupid beyond endurance. Now explain when you fell on your head
and why you cannot stop blubbering idiocies.
> You seem to wallow in insufferable ignorance more and more by the hour,
> Hui.
No. I am just having fun correcting common russian puppet
mis-information.
You - on the other hand - are just proving that you and hole-man (and
GK, and etc) are joined at the red pantaloons. You are again, a
failure.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
it's one of Kronvalds' words and dates to 1869. It is based on "pilst,"
not "pils." Your comments make about as much sense as saying that the
existence of the word "lidotājs" means we were aviators of old because
the word "lidot" is old (well, why not -- older than the Pyramids, we
defy gravity...). Kronvalds originally wanted to base his equivalent
for "Bürger" on "pils" -- but that would have been "pilietis" or
"pilnietis," and instead he based the word "pilsonis" on "pilst," ("to
become complete"): "kā _kustonis_ no _kustēt_, _mironis_ no _mirt_."
His choice for "Bürgertum" was "pilsietība" (1872), but that wasn't
accepted and the new word "pilsonība" came into use instead. The use
of "pilsonība" in the sense of "bourgeoisie" can be found in Rainis
(see the LLVV). As to "pilsonis" being Kronvalds' neologism, see any
source, incl. Kronvalds himself, Karulis, and K. Mülenbacha _Latviešu
valodas vārdnīca_, XXIV. burtnīca, Rīga 1927: "_pilsuonis_, der
Bürger (seit Kronw.)."
/P
«Pas de deux»
below. What are you on?
GK de Montréal
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1118822880.5...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
lora...@cs.com
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> The word "pils" is an ancient word. The word "pilsonis" is recent --
> it's one of Kronvalds' words and dates to 1869. It is based on "pilst,"
> not "pils."
You disgusting russian moron!
How dare you sit on your fat dupa making noises at us after I have
already corrected your stinking 'Bürgerlichs'.
'Pils' is Latvian - of ancient origin.
'Pilsonis' is/was a person living in a 'pils'.
Just as 'pisetlnieks' might be a person living in the environs of a
'pils'; hence the term 'pils-seta' ('within the castle's walls').
You're a foreigner. Just a rude russian whose puppet alter egos
*continually* make substantive errors in comprehension. You had better
hope that your bosses can't read English or your dumb dupa would be in
a jam.
Come to think of it, I think I will correct your next error in russian
- so's that your bosses might see how badly you screw up.
> Your comments make about as much sense as saying that the
> existence of the word "lidotâjs" means we were aviators of old because
> the word "lidot" is old
Idiot! Moron! Even a bird flys!
They too are and have always been called 'fliers'/'lidotaiji'. You've
got some major and basic brain damage going on there, fool.
(That cinches it - I *am* going to translate this into russian and post
it for your bosses. Your imposed idiocy is inexcusable.)
> ..(well, why not -- older than the Pyramids, we
> defy gravity...).
Yes, idiot, birds defy gravity.
> Kronvalds originally wanted to base his equivalent
> for "Bürger" on "pils" -- but that would have been "pilietis" or
> "pilnietis," and instead he based the word "pilsonis" on "pilst," ("to
> become complete"): "kâ _kustonis_ no _kustçt_, _mironis_ no _mirt_."
> His choice for "Bürgertum" was "pilsietîba" (1872), but that wasn't
> accepted and the new word "pilsonîba" came into use instead. The use
> of "pilsonîba" in the sense of "bourgeoisie" can be found in Rainis
> (see the LLVV). As to "pilsonis" being Kronvalds' neologism, see any
> source, incl. Kronvalds himself, Karulis, and K. Mülenbacha _Latvieðu
> valodas vârdnîca_, XXIV. burtnîca, Rîga 1927: "_pilsuonis_, der
> Bürger (seit Kronw.)."
Crazy crap.. I don't what communist era redaction you pasted this
gummed up daydreaming from - but it matters not. 'Tis all speculation -
whereas the Latvian language proves:
Pils (castle)
Pil-seta (city/town within the castle walls)
Pilsonis (one from the castle)
Pilsetnieks (one from within the castle walls; the castle keep)
Tres simple.. Same roots, consistent meaning and organic development.
Obvious stuff.
But ---
I am still waiting to have you explain why ancient Greeks from the
Acro-polis were not called 'Bürgerlichters' as you demand. You moron.
Please also look up the ancient Greek root for 'citizen'. You moron.
PS: And tell hole-man to go 'licht' his doggie 'burgers' elsewhere.
J. Anderson
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1118862700....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Idiot! Moron! Even a bird flys!
Better a bird than flys than a man who lys.
J. Anderson
Sorry, I meant:
Better a bird that flys than a man that lys.
(The typo was caused by my unstoppable laughing-fits. Isn't Momma just
simply unique in his absolutely unbelievable stupidity!!!)
Vladimir Makarenko
lora...@cs.com wrote to a Balt:
> You disgusting russian moron!
> How dare you sit on your fat dupa making noises at us after I have
> already corrected your stinking 'Bürgerlichs'.
I think this time your seizure is so bad it's worth to call 911.
And this "us" - about all the 474 of you?
VM.
P.S. Looks like soon U no Dick will became as legendary on the Usenet as
Bill Palmer.
I wish I could arrange them a blind date.
>
> 'Pils' is Latvian - of ancient origin.
> 'Pilsonis' is/was a person living in a 'pils'.
> Just as 'pisetlnieks' might be a person living in the environs of a
> 'pils'; hence the term 'pils-seta' ('within the castle's walls').
>
> You're a foreigner. Just a rude russian whose puppet alter egos
> *continually* make substantive errors in comprehension. You had better
> hope that your bosses can't read English or your dumb dupa would be in
> a jam.
> Come to think of it, I think I will correct your next error in russian
> - so's that your bosses might see how badly you screw up.
>
> > Your comments make about as much sense as saying that the
> > existence of the word "lidotājs" means we were aviators of old because
> > the word "lidot" is old
>
> Idiot! Moron! Even a bird flys!
> They too are and have always been called 'fliers'/'lidotaiji'. You've
> got some major and basic brain damage going on there, fool.
>
> (That cinches it - I *am* going to translate this into russian and post
> it for your bosses. Your imposed idiocy is inexcusable.)
>
> > ..(well, why not -- older than the Pyramids, we
> > defy gravity...).
>
> Yes, idiot, birds defy gravity.
>
> > Kronvalds originally wanted to base his equivalent
> > for "Bürger" on "pils" -- but that would have been "pilietis" or
> > "pilnietis," and instead he based the word "pilsonis" on "pilst," ("to
> > become complete"): "kā _kustonis_ no _kustēt_, _mironis_ no _mirt_."
> > His choice for "Bürgertum" was "pilsietība" (1872), but that wasn't
> > accepted and the new word "pilsonība" came into use instead. The use
> > of "pilsonība" in the sense of "bourgeoisie" can be found in Rainis
> > (see the LLVV). As to "pilsonis" being Kronvalds' neologism, see any
> > source, incl. Kronvalds himself, Karulis, and K. Mülenbacha _Latviešu
> > valodas vārdnīca_, XXIV. burtnīca, Rīga 1927: "_pilsuonis_, der
«Pas de deux»
Besser ist ein Vogel, der fliegt, als ein Mann, der liegt (oder lügt).
;-)
GK von Montreal
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
"_lidoņi_" (you can use "lidotāji" _with_ "putni," e.g.
"lidotājputni" or "kaijas ir apbrīnojamas lidotājas"), but
"lidotājs" is defined as "pilot, aviator." All of your remarks sent my
wife into hysterical fits of laughter, at least, so thank you!
Sorry, but your idea of what's "tres [sic] simple" is skewed by the
fact that your Latvian is too poor to discuss these matters -- you very
frequently use incorrect endings, and endings are essential elements in
Latvian. You have already indicated that you think any diminutive
suffix can be tacked onto any word (e.g., "Pēteriņš"), but this
delusion of yours apparently extends to what you call "organic
development" -- you seem to believe that you need only look at roots
(roots you often fail to recognize, stealing part of the suffix), see
similarities -- and presto! "Parasti" comes to means "over eight" in
Huish, to be traced through some turgid mental ox-tail soup, not
derived from "rast"!
"Pilsēta" is not "pil-sēta" but "pils" + "sēta"; yet even this is
not as "obvious" as you might think it is. Even in the 17th C, the word
"pils" was also used for town (not just "castle"), and another word for
city was "jelgava," which many major linguists (Mīlenbahs and
Endzelīns among them) have considered to be a loan word (from the
Livonian "jālgab") -- Karulis disagrees, saying there is no
satisfactory Finno-Ugric etymology (comments, Finns?) and offering a
fascinating argument based on toponyms ("Jelgavkalns," "Jelgavkrasts,"
etc.) to the effect that it once described cult centers surrounded by a
primitive embankment or moat and also came to mean "inaccessible
place." In Mancelius' _Phraseologia Lettica_ (Rīga, 1638), "pils" is a
fortified town whilst "jelgava" is an open city; in Elger's
_Dictionarium Polono-Latino-Lottavicum_ (Vilnius, 1683), it's exactly
the opposite -- "jelgava" is defined as "castellum." (Elger, by the
way, is buried in the Fortress here in Daugavpils; the Jesuits ran the
first school where Latvian was taught, from the late 1620s.)
But let's return to "pilsēta" -- the standard form is not that old,
Hui (it doesn't predate the Pyramids, hee-hee), and it lacked stability
until Harder and Wellig revised Stender's dictionary in 1828, endorsing
the form. The word "pylssaeta" is found in Elger, but the forms
"pilsāts" and "pilsāta" were more frequent; toponyms with "sāts" and
"sāta" are most often found in Courland, and so Karulis suggests that
it's a Couronian word. What's interesting is that "-sāts" is
associated with a meadow, grazing land, a field -- Karulis says to
compare the Pruzzian (I'll use that form for "Old Prussian" just to
annoy you, Hui) "Satho," a meadow in Sambia. Later the meaning shifts
because of "sēta" (as "enclosure"), and only in the 19th C does
"pilsēta" come into wide use in Courland. I hate to break it to you,
but Endzelīns saw "sēta" as a loan word from Estonian... others
disagree. But my point is that the meaning is _neither_ consistent, as
you say, _nor_ continuous. You may believe that the people who lived in
the eerily crude but beautiful hovels of Āraišu ezerpils knew the
concept of "citizen" -- but you believe a lot of ludicrously strange
things.
But I digress. You, Hui, are _essentially_ full of shit. _Dreckhaufen!_
There was _nothing_ of "communist era redaction" in what I wrote --
there is also no speculation about the word "pilsonis"; I am sorry, but
Kronvalds came up with the word, and Kronvalds writes about coming up
with the word, and the word in that definition doesn't exist prior to
Kronvalds. You fail to grasp the reason why Mīlenbahs criticized the
word -- there is nothing "organic" in deriving "pilsonis" from "pils."
The "organic" derivative (if I understand your meaning in using such a
silly term -- following the established pattern) would be "pilietis" --
the rationalization Kronvalds provides (rather desperately) for
"pilsonis" is its derivation from "pilst" (something of a non-word) and
_not_ "pils." Mīlenbahs' criticism is based on his problem with the
fact that "pils" _can't_ become "pilsonis" from "pils"; the derivative
would be _wrong_. I daresay that knowing that doesn't take a linguist
-- consider other words with the -uon-; how many can you think of that
aren't based on a verb or a substantive? Do you retain the "s" from
"spēks" in "spēkonis"? Why don't you consider Kronvalds' other,
similar neologisms -- "cēlonis," (from "celt"), or "ziedonis" --
another fascinating word, since it's Kronvalds who recommended
replacing "upurēt" ("to sacrifice" -- a loan word from the _Germanic_,
Hui... they got it from the Latin) with "ziedot"; Karulis notes that
Auseklis footnoted the word when using it in "Lai ziedojam slāpušiem
gariem." Or even the words that didn't take -- "dailonis" ("artist"),
or the words for which Kronvalds changed the meaning -- "varonis."
See http://www.liis.lv/latval/literval/6lit.htm for how Kronvalds uses
suffixes... and note that this text, too (from LU and the Ministry of
Education) says "pilsonis" is a neologism!
Perhaps in your deepening insanity you'd like to turn to the word
"zilonis"? Hint -- sorry, but "zilonis" comes from the Russian
"слон" (they took it from the Turkic), the form influenced by the
Latvian word "zils" and -uon- -- or, following Huish logic, should we
say "zilsonis"? Perhaps, before the Pyramids were built, our elephants
defied gravity and prevented any Slavic influences into the distant
future? Following Hui's logic down the shit-strewn path, are people
from Ventspils "ventspilsoņi"? From Daugavpils, "daugavpilsoņi"?
"Communist era redaction"? Sorry, Hui, but I cited
Mīlenbahs-Endzelīns; _nothing_ could be further from "communist era
redaction" than that dictionary, which was and remains _the_ essential
lexicographical work in Latvian. It was, with the "Konversācijas
vārdnīca," one of the two monumental research and publishing projects
in independent Latvia between the wars, its significance not only
philological but historic.
If you had half a brain, you would at least acquire Karulis' work -- he
spends about three pages on "pils" and its derivatives. Where there's
speculation, he says so. You don't seem to realize that the two volumes
of his _Latviešu etimoloģijas vārdnīca_ provide cites from _every_
lexicographical work in Latvian that's out there (and even from some
that are lost, their texts reconstructed from personal notes and
archives). The work was edited by Andreyev, Karaliūnas, and Toporov.
Note, too, that one of Karulis' areas of especial expertise is in the
vocabulary of the Young Latvians, whence "Bürger" = "pilsonis"!
It's science, Hui, not fantasy. The point of possessing such a
reference work is that it references previous works -- it's much easier
to look up a word in Karulis and then seek out the materials pertaining
to that word, listed in the dictionary, than it is to hunt through,
say, Kronvalds' writings. You're accusing _me_ of speculation? You, the
ass who says words don't exist simply because you haven't heard them
before? It's "speculation" to cite the inventor of the word?
Seek help, Hui.
/P
lora...@cs.com
What are you doing here, 'finnish' moron?
We have already said goodbye.
J. Anderson
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1118933114....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> J. Anderson wrote:
> > <lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
> > news:1118862700....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > Idiot! Moron! Even a bird flys!
> >
> What are you doing here, 'finnish' moron?
Look at this pisshead! Now he even doubts my Finnishness, the pathetic
wannabe Balt!
> We have already said goodbye.
We? How many are you this time?
lora...@cs.com
J. Anderson wrote:
> <lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
> > What are you doing here, 'finnish' moron?
>
> Look at this pisshead! Now he even doubts my Finnishness, the pathetic
> wannabe Balt!
There's no wannbee about it pea-head.
> > We have already said goodbye.
>
> We? How many are you this time?
(Your number of puppet alter egos) - (Your number of puppet alter egos)
+ one = one.
As always, dimwit asiatic.
J. Anderson
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1118936373....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> There's no wannbee about it
How about frisbee or Wannsee, then?
> > > We have already said goodbye.
> >
> > We? How many are you this time?
>
> (Your number of puppet alter egos) - (Your number of puppet alter egos)
> + one = one.
I think this calculation would be more accurate:
(Momma's number of alter egos) minus (My number of alter egos) plus one =
infinite
> As always dimwit asiatic.
Is that your new signature? Which one is Asiatic, your momma or your poppa?