origin of name 'Lithuania' and 'Latvia'
EZ
linguists say?
Liel teva -> Lietuva
Liela tevija -> Latvija
"Aisčių metraščio" autorės nuomone, Lietuvos ir Latvijos vardai buvo
du bendriniai žodžiai, reiškiantys "šventa tėviškė" ar "didi
tėviškė" (liel teva, liela tevija),
http://kauno.diena.lt/naujienos/lietuva/pamirsta-istorija-musu-proteviai-sugriove-roma-226702
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> I have never seen this version, but looks possible. What do our
> linguists say?
>
> Liel teva -> Lietuva
> Liela tevija -> Latvija
>
Tevije the Milkman -> Fiddler on the Roof
Dmitry
> I have never seen this version, but looks possible. What do our
> linguists say?
>
> Liel teva -> Lietuva
> Liela tevija -> Latvija
I'm not a linguist, but Latvia certainly doesn't fit into this
category - it has never been big.
>
> "Aisčių metraščio" autorės nuomone, Lietuvos ir Latvijos vardai buvo
> du bendriniai žodžiai, reiškiantys "šventa tėviškė" ar "didi
> tėviškė" (liel teva, liela tevija),
>
> http://kauno.diena.lt/naujienos/lietuva/pamirsta-istorija-musu-protev...
EZ
> On 4 July, 13:26, EZ <zvi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I have never seen this version, but looks possible. What do our
> > linguists say?
>
> > Liel teva -> Lietuva
> > Liela tevija -> Latvija
>
> I'm not a linguist, but Latvia certainly doesn't fit into this
> category - it has never been big.
>
The article mentions the area where Balts once lived which is a quite
large land. On the other hand, in Lithuanian tevija or tevonija
derives from ones family land, perhaps one can refer to tribal land.
So a conglomerate of many tribal lands would be a big tribal land -
liela tevija - it does not matter that it is not that big compared to
some other countries - reference is the land of one tribe or family.
To me this version is interesting and makes sense. There was much
discussion in Lithuania regarding the origin of its name. One version
was that it comes from the river "Lietava" which is not even a proper
river, more of a creek - to me it never made any sense.
Also, it is quite interesting that Lithuanians lost the word
"liels" (large) and replaced it with "didelis", while Latvians
retained it.
Best regards,
EZ
Tadas Blinda
> To me this version is interesting and makes sense. There was much
> discussion in Lithuania regarding the origin of its name. One version
> was that it comes from the river "Lietava" which is not even a proper
> river, more of a creek - to me it never made any sense.
Well, as you said, you're not a linguist. To a linguist it makes
perfect sense, because there are many other examples of a very small,
specific point on the map becoming the name of an entire country,
province, or even continent (look up the etymology of "Africa").
Name of Lithuania
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The name of Lithuania (Lithuanian: Lietuva) was first recorded in
written sources in 1009 in chronicles of Quedlinburg (Latin: Annales
Quedlinburgenses). The Quedlinburg Chronicle recorded a Latinized
Slavic form of the name Lietuva - Litua [1] pronounced [litvā]. While
it is clear the name originated in a Baltic language, scholars still
debate the meaning of the word.
Historic usage of the name
During the 11th century the Land of Lithuania was bordered by Slavic
lands. Since the Slavs interacted with Lithuanians much earlier than
Western countries did, it is understandable that the Quedlinburg
Chronicle used a Slavic form of its name. Slavs did not create the
name; they used the existing Lithuanian ethnonym. The Lithuanian
diphthong -ie- has, in Slavic languages, shifted to the vowel -i- (и),
hence Litva. This is evidence that the Slavs borrowed this ethnonym
from Lithuanians a long time ago.[2]
During the next century, Lithuania's name was recorded in other
languages, including German and Polish. In early German chronicles
Lithuania's name was spelled as Lettowen.[3] In this form the German
letter -e- is used to denote the Lithuanian diphthong -ie-, while -
owen denotes the Lithuanian hydronymic suffix -uva (-ava).[3] The
traditional Lithuanian root -liet- is encountered in various German
usages of the era, such as Lettowen, and in Latin as Lethovia,
Lettovia, Lettavia, etc.
In Rus' chronicles Lithuania's name was written as Литъва, alongside a
shortened version, Литва (Litva), where -i- (и) was already used
instead of the diphthong -ie. All of these names clearly originated
from *Lētuvā > Lietuva, forms used by Lithuanians to identify their
lands.[2] The current form of the name Lietuva is thought to be used
by Lithuanians since the 12th or 13th century.[4] Despite ample
historic and linguistic evidence with regard to the name's usage in
different languages, there is a certain degree of debate about the
etymology of the name.
Etymology of the name
Commemorative coin dedicated to the millennium of Lithuania's name
There have been several attempts to associate Lietuva with Celtic
toponyms, and with Latin or Italian words. But these attempts all lack
strong linguistic support. According to a widespread popular belief,
the word Lietuva (Lithuania) originated from a Lithuanian word lyti
(to rain).[5][6] However, there is no serious scientific support for
this theory. Since the word Lietuva has a suffix (-uva), the original
word should have no suffix. A likely candidate is Lietā. Because many
Baltic ethnonyms originated from hydronyms, linguists have searched
for its origin among local hydronyms. Usually such names evolved
through the following process: hydronym → toponym → ethnonym.[7]
A small river not far from Kernavė, the core area of the early
Lithuanian state and a possible first capital of the would-be Grand
Duchy of Lithuania, is usually credited as the source of the name.
This river's original name is Lietava.[7] As time passed, the suffix -
ava could have changed into -uva, as the two are from the same suffix
branch. The river flows in the lowlands and easily spills over its
banks, therefore the traditional Lithuanian form liet- could be
directly translated as lietis (to spill), of the root derived from the
Proto-Indo-European *leyǝ-.[8] However, the river is very small and
some find it improbable that such a small and local object could have
lent its name to an entire nation. On the other hand, such a fact is
not unprecedented in world history.[2]
While the word's etymology continues to be debated, scientists agree
that the primary origins of the ethnonym were the Lithuanian forms
*Lētuvā/Lietuva, which were then used by different languages,
including Slavic. It is linguistically impossible for the name to have
derived from a Slavic language, since the Slavic -i- (и) could never
be transliterated into the Lithuanian diphthong -ie-.[2]
Among other etymologies of a name of Lithuania there is S.
Karaliūnas', A. Dubonis',[9] hypothesis, that Lietuva relates to a
word *leičiai.
1. ^ Vilnius. Key dates. Retrieved in 2007-01-18.
2. ^ a b c d (Lithuanian) Zinkevičius, Zigmas (1999-11-30).
"Lietuvos vardo kilmė". Voruta 3 (669). ISSN 1392-0677.
http://www.voruta.lt/article.php?article=259.
3. ^ a b (Lithuanian) Zinkevičius, Zigmas (2007). Senosios Lietuvos
valstybės vardynas. Vilnius: Science and Encyclopaedia Publishing
Institute. p. 26. ISBN 5420016060.
4. ^ On the Name of Lithuania, Zigmas Zinkevičius
5. ^ Lithuania - General Information ERASMUS programme Conference
2007."The name of Lithuania (Lietuva in Lithuanian) comes from the
word "lietus" (rain)."
6. ^ The Origin of the Name of Lithuania. Zigmas Zinkevicius,
Delfi.lt, 1999. "After the ineffectual efforts to find the name of
Lithuania in foreign countries, it was finally associated to the
Lithuanian word lietus ‘rain’, as though Lithuania were an extremely
rainy land."
7. ^ a b Zigmas Zinkevičius. Kelios mintys, kurios kyla skaitant
Alfredo Bumblausko Senosios Lietuvos istoriją 1009-–1795m. Voruta,
2005.
8. ^ Indo-European Etymology
9. ^ (Lithuanian) Dubonis, Artūras (1998), Lietuvos didžiojo
kunigaikščio leičiai: iš Lietuvos ankstyvųjų valstybinių struktūrų
praeities (Leičiai of grand duke of Lithuania: from the past of
Lithuanian stative structures, Vilnius: Lietuvos istorijos instituto
leidykla
Dmitry
The first written mention of Lithuania was 1000 years and 5 months ago
and the name was probably there before. It is quite possible that
"tuva" was "tevija" and the union of tribes makes it "liels" no matter
how it compares to other places. I live in "Lielbritanija", but it is
tiny in comparison to many other places.
EZ
> On Jul 4, 7:24 pm, EZ <zvi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > To me this version is interesting and makes sense. There was much
> > discussion in Lithuania regarding the origin of its name. One version
> > was that it comes from the river "Lietava" which is not even a proper
> > river, more of a creek - to me it never made any sense.
>
> Well, as you said, you're not a linguist. To a linguist it makes
> perfect sense, because there are many other examples of a very small,
> specific point on the map becoming the name of an entire country,
> province, or even continent (look up the etymology of "Africa").
>
I am aware of the Wikipedia page Ginti.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Lithuania
There is nothing conclusive - just several ideas - such as to relate
the name to 'rain' as if in neighbouring countries there was no rain
or it was somehow different from the rain in Lithuania - or to a
rivulet that is related to "lieti" ,"kur nusilieja vanduo" - it could
give country a name but is it nesessarily the case?
The article provides an interesting idea that seems to have been
overlooked.
What you as a linguist specifically makes to discard the hypothesis
that was put forward in the original article?
-EZ
Tadas Blinda
> On Jul 4, 12:44 pm, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 4, 7:24 pm, EZ <zvi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > To me this version is interesting and makes sense. There was much
> > > discussion in Lithuania regarding the origin of its name. One version
> > > was that it comes from the river "Lietava" which is not even a proper
> > > river, more of a creek - to me it never made any sense.
>
> > Well, as you said, you're not a linguist. To a linguist it makes
> > perfect sense, because there are many other examples of a very small,
> > specific point on the map becoming the name of an entire country,
> > province, or even continent (look up the etymology of "Africa").
>
>
> There is nothing conclusive - just several ideas - such as to relate
> the name to 'rain' as if in neighbouring countries there was no rain
> or it was somehow different from the rain in Lithuania - or to a
> rivulet that is related to "lieti" ,"kur nusilieja vanduo" - it could
> give country a name but is it nesessarily the case?
>
> The article provides an interesting idea that seems to have been
> overlooked.
>
> What you as a linguist specifically makes to discard the hypothesis
> that was put forward in the original article?
>
> -EZ
Languages are systems, they have to have rules to function. The
phonetic "evolutions" you suggest are impossible. There are no
precedents for them.
Actually the Wiki page is not highly professional. In fact, no
serious Lithuanian linguist doubts that the correct origin of Lietuva
is quite simply from an alternative pronunciation of Lietava. (-uva /
-ava variation is not uncommon in parts of Aukštaitija).
There is no problem at all about an insignificant placename becoming
generalised. (e.g. Canada from a village named Kannata, Algeria from
Algiers, the capital, which in turn comes simply from a word that
means "peninsula".)
Dmitry
> On Jul 4, 8:55 pm, EZ <zvi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 4, 12:44 pm, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 4, 7:24 pm, EZ <zvi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > To me this version is interesting and makes sense. There was much
> > > > discussion in Lithuania regarding the origin of its name. One version
> > > > was that it comes from the river "Lietava" which is not even a proper
> > > > river, more of a creek - to me it never made any sense.
>
> > > Well, as you said, you're not a linguist. To a linguist it makes
> > > perfect sense, because there are many other examples of a very small,
> > > specific point on the map becoming the name of an entire country,
> > > province, or even continent (look up the etymology of "Africa").
>
>
> > There is nothing conclusive - just several ideas - such as to relate
> > the name to 'rain' as if in neighbouring countries there was no rain
> > or it was somehow different from the rain in Lithuania - or to a
> > rivulet that is related to "lieti" ,"kur nusilieja vanduo" - it could
> > give country a name but is it nesessarily the case?
>
> > The article provides an interesting idea that seems to have been
> > overlooked.
>
> > What you as a linguist specifically makes to discard the hypothesis
> > that was put forward in the original article?
>
> > -EZ
>
> Languages are systems, they have to have rules to function. The
> phonetic "evolutions" you suggest are impossible. There are no
> precedents for them.
>
> Actually the Wiki page is not highly professional. In fact, no
> serious Lithuanian linguist doubts that the correct origin of Lietuva
> is quite simply from an alternative pronunciation of Lietava. (-uva /
> -ava variation is not uncommon in parts of Aukštaitija).
>
> There is no problem at all about an insignificant placename becoming
> generalised. (e.g. Canada from a village named Kannata, Algeria from
> Algiers, the capital, which in turn comes simply from a word that
> means "peninsula".)
Do you know where the word "latvija" comes from? I think it is from
Latgola, but I'm not sure.
Peteris Cedrins
It's based on a Lithuanian hydronym. When I get my scanner up I can
copy some information for you, but here is what I threw together in
response to a similar question from a friend of a friend:
Etymologically, the term is indeed directly connected to the term for
the Latgallian tribe(s) -- but Latgale (latg. Latgola) as a term for
the eastern region is actually quite recent, from the early 20th C
(Latgallians called themselves Inflantians [from the Polish corruption
of Livland > Inflanty] or Vitebsk Latvians before then). The area
where the ancient Latgallians lived was much larger, including much of
what is now Vidzeme. Both the Primary Chronicle ("Nestor's") and the
Chronicle of Henry refer to Lethigalli, and in the latter -- where
there are also Letti -- it essentially means all of the (proto-)
Latvians north of the Daugava.
The term "latvis" predates "latvietis," but the latter was around
already in the 1600s -- Elger's Dictonarium Polono-Latino-Lottavicum
(Vilnius, 1683) identifies Latvians with Vidzeme specifically:
"Inflanty. Livonia. Wyddu zemme, latwaeszu zemme." The pastor of Nīca
and Bārta in 1685 identifies them with Courland: "'Latwiska zemm' =
Lett- oder Churlandt"; "Latwissis (Kursnieks)" "Latvis" and
"latvietis" were parallel forms in the 18th C, "latvietis" dominating
in the 19th C ("latvis" is now essentially a poetism). (Karulis I:
506).
Fabricius wrote in 1610 that Livonia is divided "in Aesthoniam et
Lothaviam," the latter divided "in Libiam, Lothaviam veram,
Curlandiam, Semigalliam." (Latvju enciklopēdija, 1241). LE also
observes that German institutions in Courland continued to call the
Latvian language "die kurische Sprache" until the 19th C, whilst the
Polish clergy of Latgallia had called Latvian "jezyk Lotewski" since
the 17th C.
Note that Georg Elger, the author of that Polish-Latin-Latvian
dictionary, though born in Valmiera and educated at the Riga Dom
school (where most who were educated were educated, back then), taught
among the Jesuits here in the center of the world from 1637/38 until
his death in 1672. So it is that Latvian was first taught here in the
civilized world, not in those German-dominated provinces! Everyone
knows that all true culture worldwide originates in Latgallia! When
you and xxx visit -- if you dispute that, we shall employ ancient
methods of ferocious torture.
Here's a sample of Elger's Latvian, by the way --
http://www.ailab.lv/SENIE/static/Elg1621_GCG.html
Here are notes on the Chronicle of Henry that give a more precise
insight into what is meant where, with phrases like "Lethos, qui
proprie dicuntur Lethigalli..." and "pertransiens Lyvoniam venit in
Lettorum provinciam" posing a problem --
http://www.historia.lv/alfabets/I/In/Indrika%20hronika/teksts/feldhun.htm
Vysu lobu,
/P
Peteris Cedrins
P.S. One reason Evaldas' offering is impossible and absurd is that
"tēvija" is a neologism introduced by Kronvaldu Atis, who calqued or
otherwise came up with many a word, in 1870.
For an amusing debate about the term "fatherland," see --
http://latviansonline.com/forum/viewthread/33286/#38967
Tadas Blinda
> P.S. One reason Evaldas' offering is impossible and absurd is that
> "tēvija" is a neologism introduced by Kronvaldu Atis, who calqued or
> otherwise came up with many a word, in 1870.
Thank you for that information. In relation to the term "latvis"
predating "latvietis," but now being reduced to essentially a poetism
(poeticism?), I should point out that "latvis" is very much the normal
Lithuanian word for you guys; and while *latvietis is theoretically
plausible, it simply doesn't exist, just like *rusietis doesn't exist
for Russian or *lenkietis for Pole (but note "vokietis"; whereas you
guys have vâcis).
It seems that the closest neigbors have the shortest names, like gudas
= belaruski, švedas = Swede, estas = Estonian, danas = dane, norvegas
= Norwegian, anglas = Englishman. As you get further away, the -ietis
is more common but still sometimes optional (e.g. australas /
australietis; kinas / kinietis) ; whereas when you get really exotic,
the -ietis is compulsory, e.g. ugandietis, there definetely being no
*ugandis.
The -ietis suffix is also used on some non-ethnonyms, e.g.
raudonkryžietis = Red Cross official. More common is the ubiquitous -
ininkas, cognate to latvių -(i)nieks and Russian -nik, which can be
added onto almost anything (e.g. širdis = heart, širdininkas = heart
patient, i.e. someone with a dicky heart).
Peteris Cedrins
"Leitis" for "lietuvietis" is considered a slur by some, esp. the
older generation, partly because of the migrant laborers here in the
1930s, though the -ei- form is older and was endorsed by Endzelīns. I
use "leitis" without intending offense, and the Lithuanians I know are
fine with it (but I use "zīds," too, which is pretty much taboo here
these days).
There is some difficulty with the archaic term, because it applied to
nominal Poles; in Elger, a "leitis" is a Pole, and "leišu valoda" is
"the common Polish language," whilst a "lietavietis" or "lietavnieks"
is synonymous with Samogitians. "Lietava" = "Žemaitija."
In Latvian, the -ietis can sometimes distinguish the modern from the
ancient; Italians are properly "itālieši," whilst "itāļi" are the
former Italic tribes. There is some debate about this re "latgaļi,"
which is formally used for the ancient Latgallians and not the current
Latvians of Latgallia --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Latgale
Geriausio,
/P
Peteris Cedrins
That should be "žīds," not "zīds," which is silk...
/P
Tadas Blinda
>
> "Leitis" for "lietuvietis" is considered a slur by some, esp. the
> older generation, partly because of the migrant laborers here in the
> 1930s, though the -ei- form is older and was endorsed by Endzelīns. I
> use "leitis" without intending offense, and the Lithuanians I know are
> these days).
Vraiment? Replaced by what? No such development in Lietuva.
> There is some difficulty with the archaic term, because it applied to
> nominal Poles; in Elger, a "leitis" is a Pole, and "leišu valoda" is
> "the common Polish language," whilst a "lietavietis" or "lietavnieks"
> is synonymous with Samogitians. "Lietava" = "Žemaitija."
The things one learns ... All rather surprising and unpredicatible.
> In Latvian, the -ietis can sometimes distinguish the modern from
the
> ancient; Italians are properly "itālieši," whilst "itāļi" are the
> former Italic tribes. There is some debate about this re "latgaļi,"
> which is formally used for the ancient Latgallians and not the current
> Latvians of Latgallia --
Interesting. Fits in with the observation that in Litauisch the
closest neigbours have the shortest names, 'cause they're the oldest
names as well, like gudas
> > = belaruski, švedas = Swede, estas = Estonian, danas = dane, norvegas
> > = Norwegian, anglas = Englishman; ispanas, italas, bulgaras,etc. But: egiptietis, argentinietis, even amerikietis.
Curiously, though, the lietuvininkai in Aust. – N.Z. have fiddled it
that "australas" and "zelandas" are the standard nationality
adjectives, dispensing with the redundant -ietis.
Interestingly, the Sovoks were always trying to get us to say "Sidnis"
instead of our preferred "Sidnėjus". The latter has won out in recent
times and "Sidnis" has gone the way of snuff and spittoons.
Dmitry
How can this be disputed? -))
>
> Here's a sample of Elger's Latvian, by the way --
>
> http://www.ailab.lv/SENIE/static/Elg1621_GCG.html
>
> Here are notes on the Chronicle of Henry that give a more precise
> insight into what is meant where, with phrases like "Lethos, qui
> proprie dicuntur Lethigalli..." and "pertransiens Lyvoniam venit in
> Lettorum provinciam" posing a problem --
>
> http://www.historia.lv/alfabets/I/In/Indrika%20hronika/teksts/feldhun...
>
> Vysu lobu,
> /P
Thanks.
captain!
"Tadas Blinda" <tadas....@lycos.es> wrote in message
news:34bd7a72-8f81-460a...@a7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> In fact, no
serious Lithuanian linguist doubts that the correct origin of Lietuva
is quite simply from...
////////////
i doubt it.
- the captain ( a serious lithuanian linguist)
Tadas Blinda
> "Tadas Blinda" <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote in message
Just stick to smoking dope and brewing moonshine in Port Cock-
Whitlam ...
captain!
lol... did you throw a dart at the map or something? care to try again?