can we please talk about nazism?
captain.
nazis.
nazis.
nazis, nazis, nazis
Eugene Holman
<spammer...@now.net> wrote:
> let's discuss something that has never been brought up before in usenet: the
> nazis.
Alt.revisionism is the best forum for such talk. Nevertheless, the Nazis
were deeply involved in Baltic history between 1941 and 1944, so
discussing them here is not out of place.
First of all, Nazism is one of the most virulent forms of racism that the
world has ever seen. People are regarded as superior or inferior solely on
the basis of their bloodline. Sadly for us here in soc.culture.baltics,
one of the people who developed Nazism into a consistent and superficially
reasonable idelogical structure was Tallinn-born Alfred Rosenberg
(1893-1946). His seemingly Jewih surname notwithstanding, Rosenberg was of
Baltic German ethnicity. Rosenberg joined the Nazi party in 1923, and he
became editor of the party newspaper, *Völkischer Beobachter*. More
importantly, he put his editorial skills and industrial-strength
anti-Semistim at Hitler's dsposal, helping him to develop his rantings and
ravings into his notorious Mein Kampf*, a bopok that was at least
semi-readable and superficially coherent. For details, see
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERrosenberg.htm.
Nazi ideology was a vulgarized form of social Darwinism. It denied any
form of spirituality and saw human existence as being exclusively defined
by racial struggle. The Aryans, usually understood by the Nazis as being
the ancient Germans and Scandinavians, were regarded as superior to all
other races, primarily because of their culture of warfare and conquest,
and their allegedly unique ability to create what the Nazis defined as
high culture and civilization. The Aryans were constantly struggling to
retain their place at the top of the racial hierarchy, their most
pernicious enemies being the Jews. The Jews were depicted by the Nazis as
a kind of subhuman alternative species that was capable of using parastism
to accomplish anything and everything in their struggle to oust the Aryans
from their superior position and thus control them and the world. Famously
and most absurdly, the Nazis blamed the Jews for almost everything that
thy disliked: the international financing system, moneylending against
interest, Germany's loss of WW I, the Versailles Treaty, war profiteering,
the hyperinflation that destroyed the German mark during the early 1920s,
abstract art, pornography, sentimental music, jazz, dominating the arts,
media, professions, and academia, communism, capitalism, and Christianity.
The latter, in particular, was regarded as a noxious Jewish scam. Aryans
were tricked into worshipping a Jewish god and dysfunctional Jewish
family. They were urged to replace the traditional values of their ancient
Aryan warrior-culture such as ruthlessness, revenge, and pride, with
compassion, forgiveness, and humility. Instead of acquiring property by
the traditional methods of pillage and plunder, they were urged to
negotiate and strike deals based on fair exchange.
A fundamental aspect of Nazi ideology was racial hygiene, which had
internal and external dimensions. Internally, racial hygiene meant
removing the weakest and least desirable Aryans from the genepool. Mental
defectives, the congenitally deformed, and those lacking the desired
racial attributes as concerns nasal architecture, eye and skin color,
skull shape, etc. were to be forcibly sterilized or even murdered, even if
the euphemism that the Nazis used for murdering their own people was
"euthansia". The Nazis built six euthanasia centers, Bernburg,
Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hadamar, Hartheim Castle, and Sonnenstein, and
within the framework of two euthasia programs, T4 and 14f13, they killed
more than 100,000 Germans as "useless eaters" living "lives unworthy of
life". Externally, racial hygiene meant eliminating races that the were
considered competitors or parasitic from the standpoint of Aryan racial
insterests. The most obvious victims of this aspect of Nazism were the
Jews and Gyspies (Roma and Sinti), but Poles, Russians, and others were
also regarded as racial enemies to be eliminated.
This brings us to the question of the Balts. The Nazis had mixed feelings
about the Balts. On the one hand, they realized that the Lithuanians in
particular were an ancient Indo-European people with close historical and
genetic affinities to the Aryans. On the other hand, the Nazis regarded
the territory occupied by the three Baltic nations as once having been
conquered by the Germans during the Middle Ages, with the present, less
desirable populations still having a high proportion of salvageable Aryan
genetic heritage. From what I have read about this issue, the Nazis'
long-term plans for the Baltic peoples seem to have involved selecting
those of them with the desirable Aryan racial characteristics and
Germanizing them. The rest were to be regarded as too racially bastardized
to be salvageable and enslaved or exterminated. The territories of the
Baltic countries were to be incorporated as *Lebensraum* into the Reich
and opened to massive German colonization. The first stages of such a plan
were implemented by the Nazis during their occupation of the Baltics
between 1941 and 1944. In all three Baltic countries harsh measures were
taken against the Jews and Gypsies as racial enemies, with most of them
being exterminated, the massacres at Rumbula and Liepaja that took place
during the last weeks of 1941 standing as particularly brutal examples of
these efforts. Estonia, ominously, was the only country to be declared
*judenfrei* free of Jews in the Wannsee Conference Protocol of January
20, 1942 as a result of this first wave of policy. The Nazis also made
some progress in their efforts to continue the process of societal
decapitation that had been started by the Soviets, for different reasons,
in 1940. Thus, most of those Baltic leaders who had not been eliminated by
the Soviets were eliminated by the Nazis. None of the three countries was
allowed to have a military structure, and the educational systems and
cultural life became tools for crude Nazi propaganda. The Nazis had too
much on their plates to go much further with their program to Germanize
the Balts and absord their territory. Eventually, as we all know, the
Soviets prevailed over them and began their srikingly similar agenda of
Russification, cultural genocide, economic exploitation, and territorial
acquisition, with results readers of this group know all too well.
For a systematic account of the crimes committed by the Nazis and Soviets
on Estonian soil, see http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/index.htm. For
a detailed and well documented case study of the activities and probable
intentions of the Nazis in the Baltics see Andrew Ezergailis, 1996, *The
Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944*.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
vello
> In article <iU9lk.3558$%b7.16@edtnps82>, "captain."
>
> > let's discuss something that has never been brought up before in usenet: the
> > nazis.
>
> Alt.revisionism is the best forum for such talk. Nevertheless, the Nazis
> were deeply involved in Baltic history between 1941 and 1944, so
> discussing them here is not out of place.
>
> First of all, Nazism is one of the most virulent forms of racism that the
> world has ever seen. People are regarded as superior or inferior solely on
> the basis of their bloodline. Sadly for us here in soc.culture.baltics,
> one of the people who developed Nazism into a consistent and superficially
> reasonable idelogical structure was Tallinn-born Alfred Rosenberg
> (1893-1946). His seemingly Jewih surname notwithstanding, Rosenberg was of
> Baltic German ethnicity. Rosenberg joined the Nazi party in 1923, and he
> became editor of the party newspaper, *Völkischer Beobachter*. More
> importantly, he put his editorial skills and industrial-strength
> anti-Semistim at Hitler's dsposal, helping him to develop his rantings and
> ravings into his notorious Mein Kampf*, a bopok that was at least
> a detailed and well documented case study of the activities and probable
> intentions of the Nazis in the Baltics see Andrew Ezergailis, 1996, *The
> Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944*.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
A good definition, Eugene, thanks. still something is lacking here coz
taking nazi theory as it is described we would be sure no normal
human, not to talk about tens of millions of germans, would subscribe
to such a inhuman thing. what is more important, if we talk about
nazism all the time like priest about hell, we will not be able to
recognise possible next recarnation of nazism - in real life, there is
no just black-just white processes.
Other thing what would be interesting to study, would be try to look
nazism as theory and practice of Third Reich separately. I think most
of us agree that if one puts long line with soviet crimes on paper,
what we get is not a definition of communism but just notice how one
group in one country used that theory - we even don't know was
"communism" their target or was it used just to fool folks to support
their dictature.
One more thing to discuss is relations of fascism and nazism. First is
about how society is built-governed and this way covers nazism as
fascism with acute on racial theme. If to take fascism as theory
seeing nation as primary and interests of businesses and people
secondary to "nation's interests", a lot more cases exept Italy,
Germany, Spain and Portugal will qualify - and for sure some modern
countries.
Are we brave enough to look for what was in that theory what attracts
so many people and not only in Germany?
MTRP™
> liI think most
> of us agree that if one puts long line with soviet crimes on paper,
> what we get is not a definition of communism but just notice how one
> group in one country used that theory - we even don't know was
> "communism" their target or was it used just to fool folks to support
> their dictature.
Nonsense. Soviet "communism" was ideological like "great" French
revolution it was parroting till Stalin's death.
> Are we brave enough to look for what was in that theory what attracts
> so many people and not only in Germany?
??? I bet nowadays "that theory" attracts more people in newly re-
created Baltic states than in Germany. Nowadays the world is more
attracted to conspirative theories.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgy5bpz2dEE
vello
> vello wrote:
> > liI think most
> > of us agree that if one puts long line with soviet crimes on paper,
> > what we get is not a definition of communism but just notice how one
> > group in one country used that theory - we even don't know was
> > "communism" their target or was it used just to fool folks to support
> > their dictature.
>
> Nonsense. Soviet "communism" was ideological like "great" French
> revolution it was parroting till Stalin's death.
No. Ideology disappears much earlier with the first generation of
revolution makers
>
> > Are we brave enough to look for what was in that theory what attracts
> > so many people and not only in Germany?
>
> ??? I bet nowadays "that theory" attracts more people in newly re-
> created Baltic states than in Germany. Nowadays the world is more
> attracted to conspirative theories.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgy5bpz2dEE
Baltics are too small for messianistic theories unhappily - no one
will follow you when you jump on a white horse with naked sword in
hand :-)
MTRP™
> MTRP™ wrote:
> > vello wrote:
> > > liI think most
> > > of us agree that if one puts long line with soviet crimes on paper,
> > > what we get is not a definition of communism but just notice how one
> > > group in one country used that theory - we even don't know was
> > > "communism" their target or was it used just to fool folks to support
> > > their dictature.
> > Nonsense. Soviet "communism" was ideological like "great" French
> > revolution it was parroting till Stalin's death.
> No.
Yes.
> Ideology disappears much earlier with the first generation of
> revolution makers
Crap. Soviet communist ideology survived Stalin and died later...
fisrt post-Stalin dissidents kept dreaming about "true communism". As
usual my clue is much bigger than yours, so sit quite pleez.
> > > Are we brave enough to look for what was in that theory what attracts
> > > so many people and not only in Germany?
> > ??? I bet nowadays "that theory" attracts more people in newly re-
> > created Baltic states than in Germany. Nowadays the world is more
> > attracted to conspirative theories.
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgy5bpz2dEE
> Baltics are too small for messianistic theories unhappily - no one
> will follow you when you jump on a white horse with naked sword in
> hand :-)
??? Need translation. I'd say you keep beating dead horse ... better
try to comment on video!
Andrius
> In article <iU9lk.3558$%b7.16@edtnps82>, "captain."
>
> > let's discuss something that has never been brought up before in usenet: the
> > nazis.
>
> Alt.revisionism is the best forum for such talk. Nevertheless, the Nazis
> were deeply involved in Baltic history between 1941 and 1944, so
> discussing them here is not out of place.
>
> First of all, Nazism is one of the most virulent forms of racism that the
> world has ever seen. People are regarded as superior or inferior solely on
> the basis of their bloodline. Sadly for us here in soc.culture.baltics,
> one of the people who developed Nazism into a consistent and superficially
> reasonable idelogical structure was Tallinn-born Alfred Rosenberg
> (1893-1946). His seemingly Jewih surname notwithstanding, Rosenberg was of
> Baltic German ethnicity. Rosenberg joined the Nazi party in 1923, and he
> became editor of the party newspaper, *Völkischer Beobachter*. More
> importantly, he put his editorial skills and industrial-strength
> anti-Semistim at Hitler's dsposal, helping him to develop his rantings and
> ravings into his notorious Mein Kampf*, a bopok that was at least
>
> Nazi ideology was a vulgarized form of social Darwinism.
Impossible due that social Darwinism can not have a "normal" form. It
is nonsense by nature.
Regards,
AB
Andrius
> vello wrote:
> > liI think most
> > of us agree that if one puts long line with soviet crimes on paper,
> > what we get is not a definition of communism but just notice how one
> > group in one country used that theory - we even don't know was
> > "communism" their target or was it used just to fool folks to support
> > their dictature.
>
> Nonsense. Soviet "communism" was ideological like "great" French
> revolution it was parroting till Stalin's death.
No, it is not right. Communism came after French revolution get a
fault due to lack of ideology. The negative side of Revolution became
visible, and then Communism has born.
Regards,
AB
Henry Alminas
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-0308...@mobile-hupnet30-156.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
Oh me - vintage Holman!
Here he attempts to somehow
relate the birth of the Nazi party
to the Baltics. On the other hand
he studiously ignores the fact that
the communist/anarchist bunch
in Germany had created such
socio/political conditions that
the population would have voted
for the devil had he promised
some order. Also forgotten is
the little detail of the massive
Kremlin efforts to aid the
recreation of the German military
machine - after Hitler was already
in power and right up to the point of
his swipe at the marauding russkie
"liberators".
Details, details...
Best - - Henry
vello
socialism: not killing people with genetic diseases but, say,
encouraging gifted persons to have more kids by state stipendiums?
National socialism is still national socialism if we cut out
antisemitism, Hitler's idea to canalize negative emotions of germans.
So anything good for "our" nation but without harming other nations?
About "nonsense by nature", selective breeding is used in any human
activity, it works perfectly with animals and plants/herbs giving
stronger and better species. If it works on anything, why not on
humans himself (I think I know the answer but I keep it for latter
time)?
In pure theory National Socialism is just idea what puts Nation-
society higher then interests of an individual. Those who put their
economical interests before state ones are condemned as traitors. It
is not hard to find some national socialist state even today.
So much about theory. In practice, any society what denies individual
person as "top of the tree" appears at the end as simple tyranny.
Andrius
Christrianity's spoiled mind's opinion - everybody want to be a
Jesus.
Regards,
http://andriusblo,blogspot.com
P.S. Your comparison is wrong even from the point of formal logic.
Eugene Holman
<halm...@comcast.net> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> Oh me - vintage Holman!
>
> Here he attempts to somehow
> relate the birth of the Nazi party
> to the Baltics.
Read more carefully, Henry. Tallinn-born Alfred Rosenberg was a Baltic
German, not a Balt or even an Estonian. When he joined the Nazi party in
1923 it had already existed for more than three years, so he could hardly
be claimed to have had anything to do with its conception or birth.
Rosenberg's contribution was his editorial skills. They enabled him to
capure the essence of Hitler's rantings and stitch them into a coherent
ideological structure. Insofar as Rosenberg was involved in any Nazi
midwifery, it was a question of seeing the ideological underpinnings of
Nazism assume existence as a coherent entity, not of the birth of the
party itself.
The fact that Alfred Rosenberg was born in Tallinn does not mean that
there is any kind of relationship between the birth of the Nazi party and
the Baltics, somehow or anyhow. It is just a coincidental curiosity.
> On the other hand
> he studiously ignores the fact that
> the communist/anarchist bunch
> in Germany had created such
> socio/political conditions that
> the population would have voted
> for the devil had he promised
> some order.
If had had more time and space I would have brought this issue up as well.
Nazism offered a simple answer to an array of complex problems and social
pathologies, an important one being the communist/anarchist bunch that you
refer to. I like to work from generalities to specifics. The ideological
and racial issues that I focused on are, as I see it, generalities. The
concrete pathologies that they were designed to deal with, social disorder
inspired largely by communists and anarchists, as well as by various
groupings of home guardists and brown shirters determined to crush them,
are specifics.
> Also forgotten is
> the little detail of the massive
> Kremlin efforts to aid the
> recreation of the German military
> machine - after Hitler was already
> in power and right up to the point of
> his swipe at the marauding russkie
> "liberators".
Thanks for that addition. Although I did not deal with that issue, I ended
with the conclusion that the historical record demonstrates the Nazis and
Soviets to have been driving strikingly similar agendas, at least as far
as the Baltic states were concerned. The main difference is that the
Nazis, being Germans, were more efficient and ruthless about implementing
their agenda during the three years that they had than the Soviets were
during the almost half a century that they had.
> Details, details...
It is usually advisable to obtain an overview of the big picture before
dwelling on minutiae.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
tadas....@lycos.es
> The fact that Alfred Rosenberg was born in Tallinn does not mean that
> there is any kind of relationship between the birth of the Nazi party and
> the Baltics, somehow or anyhow. It is just a coincidental curiosity.
So who cares? Why wastye time?
> Nazism offered a simple answer to an array of complex problems and social
> pathologies, an important one being the communist/anarchist bunch
Communism is more to the point. They exploited and abused Lithuania
and many other countries in a disgusting way for half a century (more
in the case of Ukraine, Belarus and some other CIS countries) but you
would rather dissect the minutiae of long-buried nazism. And don't
give us any nonsense about its resurgence. A few skinheads just
trying to be outrgaeous does not constitute a 'resurgence' of a
dangerous ideology or party.
> Thanks for that addition. Although I did not deal with that issue, I ended
> with the conclusion that the historical record demonstrates the Nazis and
> Soviets to have been driving strikingly similar agendas, at least as far
> as the Baltic states were concerned.
Yeah, they are ('were', in the case of Germany) both imperialists.
Luckily, Germany has found a healthy outlet for its energies via the
EU. It can do that (sublimate) because it is civilised, something
Russia will never be. The Mongol-Tatar mentality lives on there. You
have a feudal society run by warlords who disguise themselves as
businessmen (mafiozi) and politicians (white-collar mafiozi). One
step out of line and you get killed (e.g. journalists) or you get your
company and its assets confiscated and get thrown in jail.
If you insist on discussing in SCB things that are alien to the Baltic
States, why not dwell on that, rather than events of seven decades ago
that have been done to death already?
There is an election coming up in Lithuania in October. The ECONOMIST
says:
2 July 2008
Economist Intelligence Unit
Country Forecast : Lithuania
The content on this page is an extract from the Economist Intelligence
Unit’s Country Forecast.
The full Country Forecast provides five- and 25-year policy, political
and economic forecasts for the country.
A feature of the report is its “Business environment rankings” that
compare the attractiveness of operating in different countries.
Country Forecast is published on a monthly basis and can be purchased
as an annual subscription or as individual reports.
You can purchase subscriptions or single issues of Country Forecast at
the EIU Online Store.
Click here to buy the complete Country Forecast at the EIU Online
Store
Outlook for 2008-09
* The coalition government, led by the Social Democratic Party
(LSP), is likely to survive until the election, due in October 2008.
The election looks set to produce an ideologically disparate and
probably unstable coalition.
* Fiscal policy has been restrained, but is looser than is
justified given the continuing need to stabilise the economy. Measures
to promote disinflation will require attention from the authorities
over the forecast period.
* The Economist Intelligence Unit forecasts that real GDP growth
will slow to 5.5% in 2008 and to 4.8% in 2009, a reduction compared
with our previous forecast of 5.6% and 5%, respectively, owing to
higher inflation.
* We have raised our forecast for average annual inflation,
because of an increase in our forecast for global food and oil prices.
Inflation will accelerate to 10.4% in 2008, before declining to 6.7%
in 2009.
* The current-account deficit was 13.7% of GDP in 2007. The
deficit will stay high in 2008-09, at an annual average of around 11%
of GDP, as a rise in debt-servicing costs drives up income debits.
Monthly review
* A number of new parties have further fragmented the political
scene ahead of the parliamentary election, due in October. Although
small, they are likely to draw populist votes away from the Labour
Party and Order and Justice.
* A new law on political advertising in broadcast media bans
parties from purchasing airtime directly. Instead, it will be
allocated by the Central Election Commission on the basis of the
number of seats won in the previous election.
* Following the passage of a law on fiscal restraint, the
government has approved a draft budget for 2009 that aims for fiscal
balance. However, its revenue predictions seem optimistic.
* Inflation has continued to accelerate to new highs, reaching 12%
year on year in May. High inflation is making euro adoption before
2012-13 look increasingly unlikely.
* Real GDP growth slowed to 6.9% in the first quarter of 2008,
from 8% in the previous quarter, on a revised estimate from Statistics
Lithuania. Private consumption growth was still brisk, although it
slowed year on year.
* Unemployment has continued to fall, and job-creation has risen.
There was a significant drop in the number of long-term unemployed in
the first quarter of 2008.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
> In article <TvudncHa-sIfbgjVnZ2dnUVZ_hOdn...@comcast.com>, "Henry Alminas"
>
> <halmi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> <deletions>
>
>
>
> > Oh me - vintage Holman!
>
> > Here he attempts to somehow
> > relate the birth of the Nazi party
> > to the Baltics.
>
> Read more carefully, Henry. Tallinn-born Alfred Rosenberg was a Baltic
> German, not a Balt or even an Estonian. When he joined the Nazi party in
> 1923 it had already existed for more than three years, so he could hardly
> be claimed to have had anything to do with its conception or birth.
> Rosenberg's contribution was his editorial skills. They enabled him to
> capure the essence of Hitler's rantings and stitch them into a coherent
> ideological structure. Insofar as Rosenberg was involved in any Nazi
> midwifery, it was a question of seeing the ideological underpinnings of
> Nazism assume existence as a coherent entity, not of the birth of the
> party itself.
>
> The fact that Alfred Rosenberg was born in Tallinn does not mean that
> there is any kind of relationship between the birth of the Nazi party and
> the Baltics, somehow or anyhow. It is just a coincidental curiosity.
Some historians take a different view. Rosenberg and numerous other
prominent Baltic Germans were instrumental in providing the right-wing
Russian thought that influenced Hitler's Weltanschauung.
"Moreover, one should not underestimate the significance of White
émigré contributions to Nazi thought in general and Hitler’s anti-
Semitic Weltanschauung (world-view) in particular since the heyday of
such collaboration ended with Hitler’s putsch attempt of 1923.
Rosenberg, in particular, continued to influence the development of
Nazi ideology long after this. Further, gaining a greater
understanding of National Socialism’s 'Russian' connection in the
immediate postwar years has become all the more important since it now
appears that Hitler developed his conviction that the Jews represented
a
scourge intent upon ruining the German _Volk_ only in the years
_after_ Germany suffered revolution and defeat in November 1918."
See _The Russian Roots of Nazism: White Émigrés and the Making of
National Socialism, 1917–1945_ by Michael Kellogg, Cambridge
University Press, 2005 --
http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521845120
Regards,
/P
Eugene Holman
<afecc80e-feff-4b6c...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
=?ISO-8859-13?Q?P=E7teris_Cedri=F2=F0_=28Peteris_Cedrins=29?=
<ced...@gmail.com> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> Some historians take a different view. Rosenberg and numerous other
> prominent Baltic Germans were instrumental in providing the right-wing
> Russian thought that influenced Hitler's Weltanschauung.
>
> "Moreover, one should not underestimate the significance of White
> =E9migr=E9 contributions to Nazi thought in general and Hitler=92s anti-
> Semitic Weltanschauung (world-view) in particular since the heyday of
> such collaboration ended with Hitler=92s putsch attempt of 1923.
> Rosenberg, in particular, continued to influence the development of
> Nazi ideology long after this. Further, gaining a greater
> understanding of National Socialism=92s 'Russian' connection in the
> immediate postwar years has become all the more important since it now
> appears that Hitler developed his conviction that the Jews represented
> a
> scourge intent upon ruining the German _Volk_ only in the years
> _after_ Germany suffered revolution and defeat in November 1918."
>
> See _The Russian Roots of Nazism: White =C9migr=E9s and the Making of
> National Socialism, 1917=961945_ by Michael Kellogg, Cambridge
> University Press, 2005 --
>
> http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=3D9780521845120
Paldies. I will check it out.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
vello
>
> P.S. Your comparison is wrong even from the point of formal logic.-
And you just forgot to bring my mistakes up here?
tadas....@lycos.es
nazism")
<spammer...@now.net> was only being facetious when he wrote:
"Let's discuss something that has never been brought up before in
usenet: the nazis."
Holman thought all his birthdays had come at once:
> > > > > Alt.revisionism is the best forum for such talk. Nevertheless, the Nazis
> > > > > were deeply involved in Baltic history between 1941 and 1944, so
> > > > > discussing them here is not out of place.
Yeah, right. Never mind Soviet atrocities. Looks like Nazi crimes
are sexier than Soviet crimes. (At least more pulp fiction and
Hollywood movies have been inspired by them.)
Seems to me it's getting almost as bad as the fact that you can murder
as many pigs, cows, sheep and suchlike as you wish and nobody's
interested; whereas just dare to touch one of the pin-up mammals such
as whale, seal or dolphin and all hell breaks loose. Oh, the power of
fashion and peer-group conformity.
Eugene Holman
<9778cece-251d-4815...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
tadas....@lycos.es wrote:
Instead of complaining like this, why don't you take the initiative abd
start an alternative thread: "Can we please talk about communism"? I'm
sure that you will get as many, probably more, responses than the one on
Nazism.
Both of these pernicious ideologies had a particularly tragic impact on
the three Baltic countries, and both of them deserve to be analyzed here
in detail. Repeatedly, so that new readers of scb also learn aboutand
freely discuss 20th century Baltic history. That said, Nazism is somewhat
easier to talk about because the Nazis only had three years to implement
their programs in the Baltics, and they were both thorough as well as
meticulous record keepers documenting their thoroughness. It is relatively
easy to understand what the Nazis were trying to do, os well as the degree
to which they succeeded or failed to achieve their objectives. The
communists had a far longer time in power, they were not as focused, and
much of what they did or were trying to do is still not well understood or
even accessible to researchers. Consider, for example, the transformation
of Antanas Snieckus from a feared agent of Moscow trying to subvert the
Lithuanian state to the Grand Old Man of Lithuanian Communism, a man who,
after attaining a position of leadership in the Lithuanian SSR, regularly
defied Moscow and implemented his own nationalist agenda in the republic.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
tadas....@lycos.es
> Instead of complaining like this, why don't you take the initiative abd
> start an alternative thread: "Can we please talk about communism"? I'm
> sure that you will get as many, probably more, responses than the one on
> Nazism.
Yeah, maybe.
OK, maybe you can tell us something useful:
> Consider, for example, the transformation of Antanas Snieckus from a feared agent of
> Moscow trying to subvert the Lithuanian state to the Grand Old Man of Lithuanian
> Communism, a man who, after attaining a position of leadership in the Lithuanian SSR,
> regularly defied Moscow and implemented his own nationalist agenda in the republic.
In your wide-ranging reading on all things Soviet, have you seen any
concrete evidence to support the rumour that at some stage (probably
circa 1951) Stalin allegedly offered Lithuania the Kalinigrad oblast
on a plate? Whoever was in charge then (was it Sniečkus?), had to
fight - so the story goes - to turn down Stalin's offer.
If there is any truth in this rumour, it's just as well it happened
that way; because - of course - the offer was nothing more than a
Trojan horse. It could have had extremely tragic consequences. Not
only would the Russian resident percentage of an LSSR including
Kaliningrad been way up, but come 1990 the Russians would have taken
the Lithuanian rebellion much more seriously if they stood to lose the
port of K-grad as a result. In this hypothetical scenario, the least
worst outcome would have been for the Russkies to rip off K-grad; but
then maybe they would have decided to rip off Klaipėda while they were
at it.
The other 'recent' (last ten decades) near death experience for
Lithuania was the 'Litbel' monster. Thank God that miserable creature
was aborted/stillborn. A combined Lithuania-Belarus SSR would have
been curtains for the Lithuanian language and culture and we might be
today part of and share the fate of our poor eastern neighbour: a
russified backwater, the last dictatorship in Europe. (If yo are
benevolent to exclude Russia; but then it's hardly part of Europe
anyway ...)
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
That's not nazism, that's the usual nationalism.
>
> About "nonsense by nature", selective breeding is used in any human
> activity, it works perfectly with animals and plants/herbs giving
> stronger and better species. If it works on anything, why not on
> humans himself (I think I know the answer but I keep it for latter
> time)?
> In pure theory National Socialism is just idea what puts Nation-
> society higher then interests of an individual.
>
That's fascism, not nazism.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Aug 4, 1:18 am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>
> > The fact that Alfred Rosenberg was born in Tallinn does not mean that
> > there is any kind of relationship between the birth of the Nazi party and
> > the Baltics, somehow or anyhow. It is just a coincidental curiosity.
>
> So who cares? Why wastye time?
>
> > Nazism offered a simple answer to an array of complex problems and social
> > pathologies, an important one being the communist/anarchist bunch
>
> Communism is more to the point. They exploited and abused Lithuania
> and many other countries in a disgusting way for half a century (more
> in the case of Ukraine, Belarus and some other CIS countries) but you
> would rather dissect the minutiae of long-buried nazism. And don't
> give us any nonsense about its resurgence. A few skinheads just
> trying to be outrgaeous does not constitute a 'resurgence' of a
> dangerous ideology or party.
>
Aha. But the Western and especially Baltic propaganda paints a few
Russian
skinheads just trying to be outrgaeous as "proof" that Russia is a
nazi country. Even leftist Putin-fighters like Limonov, Kasparov,
Hakamada and Kasyanov from Other Russia are painted as "nazis and
stalinists".
>
> > Thanks for that addition. Although I did not deal with that issue, I ended
> > with the conclusion that the historical record demonstrates the Nazis and
> > Soviets to have been driving strikingly similar agendas, at least as far
> > as the Baltic states were concerned.
>
> Yeah, they are ('were', in the case of Germany) both imperialists.
>
So are Brits and Americans.
>
> Luckily, Germany has found a healthy outlet for its energies via the
> EU. It can do that (sublimate) because it is civilised, something
> Russia will never be. The Mongol-Tatar mentality lives on there. You
> have a feudal society run by warlords who disguise themselves as
> businessmen (mafiozi) and politicians (white-collar mafiozi). One
> step out of line and you get killed (e.g. journalists) or you get your
> company and its assets confiscated and get thrown in jail.
>
> If you insist on discussing in SCB things that are alien to the Baltic
> States, why not dwell on that
>
Aha. SCB is devoted to shitting on Russia but not on Germany, right?
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> University Press, 2005 --
>
> http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521845120
>
And, since you have recently wasted lots of time trying to convince us
that nazism is communism, we conclude that the White Émigrés from
Communism were communists. :-)
Demagoguery on overdrive....
vello
> On Aug 3, 1:16 pm, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > Impossible due that social Darwinism can not have a "normal" form. It
> > > is nonsense by nature.
>
> > Unhappily not. Let's discuss possible "soft" forms of national
> > socialism: not killing people with genetic diseases but, say,
> > encouraging gifted persons to have more kids by state stipendiums?
> > National socialism is still national socialism if we cut out
> > antisemitism, Hitler's idea to canalize negative emotions of germans.
> > So anything good for "our" nation but without harming other nations?
>
> That's not nazism, that's the usual nationalism.
So what's the IDEA of national socialism what makes difference with
just nationalism? Hardly are Gulag and gas chambers inevitable parts
of socialist messianism - or are they?
Is it incorrect by you if we look nationalism as idea about welfare of
one's nation and national socialism as idea about state where those
ideas are supported by law and valuables will be (partly)
redistributed to achieve nationalistic goals?
Well actual nazi state reads nation like in estonian or russian
language - as thing tied to ethnicity. But by me also "american"
national socialism is pretty possible - citizens of particular country
ar everything no matter of their roots, all other are inferior folks.
>
>
>
> > About "nonsense by nature", selective breeding is used in any human
> > activity, it works perfectly with animals and plants/herbs giving
> > stronger and better species. If it works on anything, why not on
> > humans himself (I think I know the answer but I keep it for latter
> > time)?
> > In pure theory National Socialism is just idea what puts Nation-
> > society higher then interests of an individual.
>
> That's fascism, not nazism.
No, in pure fascism national-ethnic moment is not constitutional part
of ideology. Never heard Salazar would describe portugalians as
selected master race :-)
>
>
vello
> On Aug 3, 9:31 pm, tadas.bli...@lycos.es wrote:
>
> > Communism is more to the point. They exploited and abused Lithuania
> > and many other countries in a disgusting way for half a century (more
> > in the case of Ukraine, Belarus and some other CIS countries) but you
> > would rather dissect the minutiae of long-buried nazism. And don't
> > give us any nonsense about its resurgence. A few skinheads just
> > trying to be outrgaeous does not constitute a 'resurgence' of a
> > dangerous ideology or party.
>
> Aha. But the Western and especially Baltic propaganda paints a few
> Russian
> skinheads just trying to be outrgaeous as "proof" that Russia is a
> nazi country. Even leftist Putin-fighters like Limonov, Kasparov,
> Hakamada and Kasyanov from Other Russia are painted as "nazis and
> stalinists".
Here you have wrong data, exept Limonov. Kasparov, Hakamada and
Kasyanov are most often described as guys supporting democratic
values.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
LOL:
On May 5 2005, 3:35 am, "Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)"
<cedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I find it quite bizarre that you would make baseless claims about
> Nazism among Balts but blithely dismiss concerns about extremists in
> Russia, Anzaurres. You are a strange bird.
>
> The NBP was founded by Dugin and Limonov, with Dugin as the ideologue.
> Before this, Dugin was on the central committee of Pamyat, the
> extremely vicious (and violently anti-Semitic) Russian chauvinist
> group.
>
> In 1994, Dugin and Limonov signed the "Declaration of the Revolutionary
> Opposition" together with Barkashov -- perhaps you won't have so much
> trouble equivocating on what Barkashov is, since his group likes to
> strut about bearing banners that say "Kill All Jews!"
>
> Vladimir Linderman, the head of the NBP in Latvia and the man who ran
> it in Russia whils tLimonov was in prison, said that "the National
> Bolsheviks are a qualitatively new phenomenon which draws on the most
> useful elements of Soviet bolshevism, from Mussolini, from German
> National Socialism before Hitler."
>
> According to Erik Van Ree, "National Bolshevism can most properly be
> defined as that radical tendency which combines a commitment to class
> struggle and total nationalization of the means of production with
> extreme state chauvinism."
>
> The authors of the hit song "Ay-ya-ya-yai, they killed a black man!"
> are former National Bolsheviks, by the way, and apparently enjoy
> parties at which they eat large chocolate cakes shaped like black men
> --
>
>
> Betsy Gidwitz:
>
> "The National Bolshevik Party, established in 1993 by writer and poet
> EduardLimonovand mystical philosopher Alexander Dugin, combines
> Russian nationalism, national socialism, tsarist autocracy,
> Christianity, nihilism, and misogyny in its philosophy. Notwithstanding
> the influence of Nazi ideology in its approach, it often appears less
> anti-Semitic and less racist than the RNE offshoots."
>
> http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-7.htm
>
> You need only look at the NBP's symbolism to see that the group is a
> bizarre synthesis of fascism and bolshevism -- their flag and their
> armbands are almost identical to the Nazis', with a black hammer and
> sickle instead of a swastika.
>
> Thomas Smitherman:
>
> "The NBP was always necessarily a non-Marxist party. However, it
> cannot
> be seen in the context of European anti-communist fascism (which also
> exists in Russia in the form of certain neo-Nazi groups). The NBP does
> largely admire Hitler, Mussolini, and has many Germanophiles in its
> ranks, but their largest honours are bestowed on Lenin and Stalin (who
> are, of course, not accused of being 'Jewish agents'). The NBP
> ideology
> is certainly fascist but not particularly anti-Semitic (well, on a
> Russian scale). Well, Limonov's real name is Jewish, and he is half or
> quarter Jewish. They are anti-American to a point of irrational racist
> (well Americans aren't a race, I guess) hostility towards the people
> themselves."
>
> Regards,
> /P
http://www.axt.org.uk/antisem/countries/russia/russia.htm.
RUSSIA
LATEST UPDATE: FEBRUARY 2001
Natsionalno-bolshevistskaya partiya (NBP, National Bolshevik Party)
The NBP is considered to be the second strongest neo-fascist party
after RNE, with approximately 6,000 members.
vello
> On Aug 4, 1:19 pm, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > Aha. But the Western and especially Baltic propaganda paints a few
> > > Russian
> > > skinheads just trying to be outrgaeous as "proof" that Russia is a
> > > nazi country. Even leftist Putin-fighters like Limonov, Kasparov,
> > > Hakamada and Kasyanov from Other Russia are painted as "nazis and
> > > stalinists".
>
> > Here you have wrong data, exept Limonov. Kasparov, Hakamada and
> > Kasyanov are most often described as guys supporting democratic
> > values.
>
> LOL:
>
> On May 5 2005, 3:35 am, "Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins)"
> after RNE, with approximately 6,000 members.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I can't get what are you trying to say. Limonov may surely be fascist
or at last he is often described this way in (Western) media. But
where you take that Western media call Hakamada, Kasyanov or Kasparov
as fascists?
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
Limonov, Hakamada, Kasyanov and Kasparov are part of the same
movement. Limono's NBP is the heart and the muscle of this movement.
Of course, they are not fascists. But until they started anti-Putin
marches, they were used by the West as symbols of Russian fascism.
Henry Alminas
You piece of shit!
"Grand Old Man of Lithuanian Communism, a man who,
> after attaining a position of leadership in the Lithuanian SSR, regularly
> defied Moscow and implemented his own nationalist agenda in the
> republic." - eh?
You abysmal piece of shit!!!
Best - - Henry
MTRP™
> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > [...]
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> You piece of shit!
> > "Grand Old Man of Lithuanian Communism, a man who,
> > after attaining a position of leadership in the Lithuanian SSR, regularly
> > defied Moscow and implemented his own nationalist agenda in the
> > republic." - eh?
> You abysmal piece of shit!!!
lol(ing)@henry_parroting_andrius
martin
> University Press, 2005 --
>
> http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521845120
>
> Regards,
> /P
>
> http://lettonica.blogspot.com/
Indeed, Russia is notorious for its antisemitism, adding words like
"pogrom" to the English language, deporting 50% of Latvia's Jews
during WW1 and contributing to world literature with books like "the
Protocols of the Elders of Zion".
Martin
Eugene Holman
<halm...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:holman-0408...@ke-hupnet183-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
<deletions>
>
> You piece of shit!
Flattery will get you nowhere, Henry.
> "Grand Old Man of Lithuanian Communism, a man who,
> > after attaining a position of leadership in the Lithuanian SSR, regularly
> > defied Moscow and implemented his own nationalist agenda in the
> > republic." - eh?
The characterization of Antanas Snieckus as the "Grand Old Man of
Lithuanian Communism" is not mine, Henry. This was a man who was trained
and lived in exile in the USSR during the 1930s, regularly sneaking into
Lithuania to do anything that he could to subvert the Lithuanian state.
After the Soviet takeover, he defended both his old communist buddies in
Lithuania as well as, later, Lithuanian national interests when Moscow was
trying to purge the republic-level parties of opponent to psot-Stalinist
revisionism and impose its economic and demographic policies in the
Baltics.
As far as I understand the matter, it was Snieckus who was the primary
figure in the Lithuanian SSR steadfastly refusing to accept that Lithuania
follow the developmental path of its two neighbors to the north, thus
allowing itself to be industrialized and Russified by the large-scale and
uncontrolled immigration of Russian-speaking industrial workers and
support people. This is generally given as the basic reason why Lithuania
never had a Russian-speaking minority in excess of 10%, while the figure
in Latvia approached 50% and that in Estonia 40% when independence was
re-established. Snieckus's brand of Lithuanian nationalism also had the
consequence that Lithuanian was taught as a serious school subject, for
which reason virtually all children of non-Lithuanian ethnicity born and
educated in the Lithuanian SSR learned the local republic-level language,
once again, in striking contrast to Latvia and Estonia.
> You abysmal piece of shit!!!
Adding an adjective to ineffectual flattery will get you nowehere, Henry.
I follow the Lithuanian press only occasionally and superficially, but I
have read enough to understand that the Old Man is still discussed, and
not always in a completely negative light. See e.g. "Antanas Snieckus. Kas
jis?" at
http://www.xxiamzius.lt/archyvas/xxiamzius/20030124/istdab_01.html.
Regards,
Uugene Holman
tadas....@lycos.es
> In article <zMOdneKQK8ZiEArVnZ2dnUVZ_jmdn...@comcast.com>, "Henry Alminas"
What about K-grad? Did Stalin offer it to Lithuania and Sniečkus said
no? Is that true?
Peter
<<What about K-grad? Did Stalin offer it to Lithuania and Snieèkus
said no? Is that true?>>
Probably not. Because if Stalin wanted, he wouldn't ask anyone. Plus in
1944, some land from Estonia and Latvia (eastern Abrene) was transfered
to Russia.
P.
tadas....@lycos.es
Except that the area in question was still freshly confiscated from
the Germans and Uncle Joe may have had some reason – not apparent to
us now – for wanting to join it to the Lithuanian SSR. Maybe the
reason was, as I mentioned earlier, to up the % of Russians resident
in the new, enlarged LSSR.
Henry Alminas
<tadas....@lycos.es> wrote in message
news:cfa34f5f-bb78-425d...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
**************************
Evidence suggests that this is an urban
legend. Hell, that scumbag didn't raise
a finger when members of his own
family were deported. He was one of
the truest serfs of the Kremlin and did
exactly what the Kremlin ordered - no
less and no more. The scumbag had
one concern and one only - the safety
of his own hide.
Amusingly his own mother damned
him to the lowest levels of hell. One
can but hope that this is where he is
currently roasting and for ever
more.
Best - - Henry
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Aug 4, 2:55 pm, Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins)
Pogrom is also a Ukrainian word. There have been no noticeable pogroms
ever on the territory of what is the modern Russian Federation or
Belarus for that matter. Pogrom is a Russian/Ukrainian word to
describe the antisemitic acts in Poland, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania,
Hungary in the late 19th-early 20th centuries.
>
> deporting 50% of Latvia's Jews
> during WW1
>
Deporting where?! Any references?
>
> and contributing to world literature with books like "the
> Protocols of the Elders of Zion".
>
Oh you mean, the antisemitic forgery that was publicised by Americans,
who printed millions of copies of this forgery and inspired Hitler,
who called the great American auto pioneer and jew-hater Henry Ford to
be the father of the Nazi antisemitism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion.
In a single year 1920, five editions sold out in England. That same
year in the United States, Henry Ford sponsored the printing of
500,000 copies, and from 1920 to 1922 published a series of
antisemitic articles, entitled The International Jew: The World's
Foremost Problem, in The Dearborn Independent, a newspaper he owned.
In 1921 Ford cited it as evidence of a Jewish threat: "The only
statement I care to make about the Protocols is that they fit in with
what is going on. They are 16 years old, and they have fitted the
world situation up to this time."[30] In 1927, however, the courts
ordered Ford to retract his publication and apologize; he complied,
claiming his assistants had duped him. Moreover, he later expressed
his admiration for Nazi Germany.[31]
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot540.html.
Henry Ford Sr. was a long-time supporter of Frank Buchman. He was also
a long-time supporter of Adolf Hitler. Ford had quite a history of
involvement with ultra-conservative and fascist causes himself.
During World War I, Ford wrote a series of viciously anti-Semitic
articles for The Dearborn Independent, which he then published in book
form as a hate-filled diatribe against Jews called "The International
Jew: The World's Foremost Problem", which basically blamed Jews for
all of the problems of the world. The International Jew is still
reprinted and used and much admired by neo-Nazis and White
Supremacists even today.
In the early 1920s, this book was published in Germany under the title
The Eternal Jew. It reportedly had a major influence on Adolf Hitler,
and he almost certainly plagiarized parts of it in Mein Kampf. The
admiration was mutual. Following Hitler's assumption of power, Ford
sent Hitler 50,000 Deutsch Marks every year on Hitler's birthday.
Ford's anti-Semitic views were well known during the period that the
Buchmanites bragged of Ford's support of their movement. For more
information on Ford's Nazi connections, see Who Financed Hitler?, by
James and Suzanne Pool. New York: Dial Press, 1978.
When news of the Jewish boycotts reached the Nazis, Hitler declared
that "the struggle of international Jewish finance against Ford has
only strengthened the sympathies of the National Socialist Party for
Ford and has given the broadest circulation to his book, The
International Jew."16 And in 1923, when Hitler learned that Ford might
run for President, he said, according to the Chicago Tribune, "I wish
that I could send some of my shock troops to Chicago and other big
American cities to help in the elections.... We look to Heinrich Ford
as the leader of the growing Fascist movement in America.... We have
just had his anti-Jewish articles translated and published. The book
is being circulated to millions throughout Germany."17
...Not only did Hitler specifically praise Henry Ford in Mein
Kampf, but many of Hitler's ideas were also a direct reflection of
Ford's racist philosophy. There is a great similarity between The
International Jew and Hitler's Mein Kampf,21 and some passages are so
identical that it has been said that Hitler copied directly from
Ford's publication.* Hitler also read Ford's autobiography, My Life
and Work, which was published in 1922 and was a best seller in
Germany, as well as Ford's book entitled Today and Tomorrow.22 There
can be no doubt as to the influence of Henry Ford's ideas on Hitler.
Not only do Hitler's writings and practices reflect The International
Jew, but one of his closest associates, Dietrich Eckart, specifically
mentioned the Protocols [of the Learned Elders of Zion50] and The
International Jew as sources of inspiration for the Nazi leader.23
> Martin- Hide quoted text -
MTRP™
Hey, let's not forget Bush clan. GW's grandpa Prescott Bush was busy
financing Hitler's NS party and his crucial election campaign (and
more) ... the odd are that without Bush's money Hitler would not be
elected (and hence appointed the Reichschancellor). Little wonder that
Henry voted for GW - twice!! :-)
http://ecosyn.us/Bush-Hitler/Bush-Hitler.html
http://clamormagazine.org/issues/14/feature3.php
Eugene Holman
<halm...@comcast.net> wrote:
<deletions>
> Evidence suggests that this is an urban
> legend. Hell, that scumbag didn't raise
> a finger when members of his own
> family were deported. He was one of
> the truest serfs of the Kremlin and did
> exactly what the Kremlin ordered - no
> less and no more.
No, Henry, here you are wrong. Snieckus defied the Kremlin on numerous
occasions, the most important of these involving the future demographic
and industrial development of the republic. According to Gorbachev's
*Memoirs*, the Kremlin was still sparring with Snickus, for whom Gorbachev
expresses some grudging admiration, in the early 1970s, with little
success in imposing its will.
> The scumbag had one concern and one only - the safety of his own hide.
Nevertheless, he is regarded as the Lithuanian leader who prevented the
Lithuanian SSR from being "invaded" by Russian-speaking industrial workers
during the post-war years.
> Amusingly his own mother damned
> him to the lowest levels of hell. One
> can but hope that this is where he is
> currently roasting and for ever
> more.
This detail and your expertise-based speculation as to the man's prrsent
whereaabouts and fate do not detract from the fact that his policies
produced a healthier society in Soviet Lithuania, at least as far as the
interests of the ethnically Lithuanian component of the population was
concerned, than what evolved in neighboring Latvia or Estonia. Give credit
where credit is due.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
[deletions]
> > deporting 50% of Latvia's Jews
> > during WW1
>
> Deporting where?! Any references?
Dr. S. Lipschitz:
"The Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Army, Nikolai Nikolaevitch, an
uncle of the Czar, Nikolai II, decreed on April 28, 1915 that the
entire Jewish population of Kurland should be expelled within twenty-
four hours. The confusion, anxiety and panic of the Jews on that
memorable day of April 28, 1915 can hardly be described. Jewish
leaders appealed to the authorities, but all they could achieve was a
postponement of several days. Five provinces (Guberni) in the heart of
Russia were designated for the resettlement of the expelled Jews;
namely Mogiliov, Chernigov, Poltava, Voronezh and Yekaterinoslav. The
greater part of the Jewish community of Windau chose the town of Orsha
in the Mogiliov district."
http://www.jewishgen.org/courland/lipschitz.htm
The Jewish Virtual Library:
"During the war, the Jews were blamed for Russian military defeats on
the claim that they had committed treason. This led to the expulsion
of the Jews from western Courland in May 1915, and approximately
40,000 Jews were forced to leave the province. When Courland was
incorporated into the independent Republic of Latvia in 1918, some
refugees and exiles returned. Despite this influx, in 1925, there were
only 22,548 Jews in the province."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Latvia.html
Dribins, Gūtmanis, Vestermanis:
"Latvian Marxist and democratic parties and organisations supported
the struggle of the Jews for more extensive rights. This solidarity
also manifested itself in 1911-1914, when the Jew Mendel Beilis was
tried without any evidence. He was falsely accused of a ritual murder.
Nearly the entire Latvian press condemned the falsified and obscure
trial. Only the Jelgava newspaper _Latviešu Avīze_ supported the
accusation and the outburst of anti-Semitism in this connection. The
newspaper was bought by the large-scale merchant J. Bisenieks, who
made efforts to strengthen his position in the Latgale grain market by
pushing out large-scale Jewish merchants.
"In principle, Latvian democratic forces condemned J. Bisenieks and
the involvement of his company in the anti-Semitic campaign that was
provoked by Russian chauvinists.
"Chauvinistic anti-Semitism most severely affected Latvia's Jews dur
ing World War I. In 1915, when the German army invaded Lithuania,
Russian generals declared Jews as the main reason of their failures.
They were accused of collaboration with the command of the German army
and of espionage for Germany. A false story was spread that in Kuži
(Lithuania) Jews had hidden a German secret unit in the rear of the
Russian army and had helped it to carry out an operation. On April 17
(30), 1915, on the eve of the Jewish Shamot feast, Grand Duke Nikolay
Nikolayevich, Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Army, issued an order
for the deportation of Jews residing in Lithuania and Kurzeme. They
were to be deported to Inner Russia within a 24-hour with only ten
days notice. About 40,000 Jews were taken away from Kurzeme and
Zemgale in railroad cattle cars. The railroad cars bore the sign
_shpioni_ (_spies_). Many people died on the way. The deportees were
settled to the provinces of Poltava, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnepro
petrovsk), Vladimir and Voronyezh, where they were met coldly and with
hostility.
"The Jews of Liepāja and Aizpute escaped deportation, as no railroad
cars were found for their hasty transportation. On April 19 the German
army already crossed the railway line and on April 24 (May 7) they in
vaded Liepāja. The Jews greeted the German soldiers as their rescuers
and liberators.
"The Latvian people did not support the violent action against the
Jews. However, Latvians saw their greatest enemy in the German army
and formed their riflemen battalions that guarded Riga and stopped the
Germans from moving towards the north. For the first time in history
the political opinions of Latvians and Jews radically differed. Each
had their own approach and hope. This was determined by conditions
that were created by foreign powers and by the World War."
http://www.am.gov.lv/en/ministry/4265/4299/#1-16
Frank Gordon:
"The attitude of Baltic Jews toward these two warring powers was quite
different than that of the Latvians, although to a degree the effect
was the same, in that many Jews were also forced to become refugees.
Jews did not care for the deeply anti-Semitic ruling classes in
Russia, which had carried out vicious pogroms, prevented Jews from
settling freely within the empire (restricting them to the sort of
giant ghetto, the Pale of Settlement), kept a numerus clausus against
Jews in higher education, and so on. Jews understandably felt no
respect or affection, much less patriotism, toward Nicholas II and his
court. Also, the Ob. Ost (Eastern Areas) administration of the German-
occupied territories of Russia was much more humane toward Jews than
the tsar's uradniks, pristavs, and gendarmes had ever been, not to
mention the Cossacks. Thus, to the Jews, the German Reich of the
kaiser seemed somewhat more civilized and was considered the lesser
evil.
"Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolayevich, the army's chief of staff, knew well
what Jews thought of the Tsarist Empire. Without much ado, he
proclaimed all Jews to be traitors and spies and ordered their
expulsion from a region within 50 versts (33 miles) of the front. In
Kurland, this order uprooted 40,000 Jews at the end of April and early
May of 1915. In all, 75 per cent of the Jews living on Latvian soil
were forced to abandon their homes during the war. For Jews, as well
as Latvians, the First World War meant the Great Flight, which was
even less voluntary than for the Latvians."
http://vip.latnet.lv/lpra/frank_gordon.htm
Regards,
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
[snip]
Two things strike me about Karlamov's post. First, here is a map of
the Pale of Settlement:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Pale_of_Settlement_map.jpg
Since the areas where Jews were permitted to live legally within the
Russian Empire were mostly not in what is now Russia, one could expect
most pogroms to have taken place in some of the areas mentioned --
they were part of the Russian Empire, however.
Just where would you expect pogroms -- Moscow?
"In 1891, Moscow was cleansed of its Jews (except few deemed useful)
and a newly built synagogue was closed by the city's authorities
headed by the Tsar's brother. Tsar Alexander III refused to curtail
repressive practices and reportedly noted: 'But we must never forget
that the Jews have crucified our Master and have shed his precious
blood.'" [3]
As to there never having been any "noticeable" [?!?] pogroms in what
is now Belarus -- source? The Jewish Virtual Library: "Together, the
Bundists and Zionists created small defense armies to combat the
multiple pogroms that came through the area. [...] The Polish army led
attacks on the Jewish communities in the area. Likewise, Russian
soldiers led massacres in Jewish Belorussian towns."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Belarus.html
"During the civil war, the Jewish populations of the Ukraine (and
Belarus, to a lesser extent) were struck by the worst pogroms ever to
take place in regions where the 1903-1906 pogroms had already severely
harmed the Jewish populations. Approximately 150,000 Jewish victims
(125,000 in the Ukraine, 25,000 in Belarus) died between 1918 and
1922. 1919 was undoubtedly the deadliest year. Pogroms were carried
out by various armed units: by the White Army under General Denikin,
by troops of the Ukrainian People’s Republic under S. Petliura, by
detachments of various warlord 'Ataman' (Sokolovski, Kozyr-Zyrka,
Hrigoriyv, Zelenyi), by detachments of 'Greens' (insurgent farmers),
and even by Red Army units (in particular the famous Konarmya, the 1st
Cavalry Army under S. Budienny). In some townships of the Ukraine and
Belarus different units would be simultaneously responsible for
pogroms."
http://www.massviolence.org/Crimes-and-mass-violence-of-the-Russian-civil-wars-1918?artpage=3
Otherwise, though -- what exactly is Karlamov trying to say? That
Russia was somehow more hospitable to Jews than Ukraine or Belarus?
Those countries were _part of Russia_, and the Empire was autocratic.
"The procurator-general of the Holy Synod and the tsar's mentor,
friend, and adviser Konstantin Pobedonostsev was reported as saying
that one-third of Russia's Jews was expected to emigrate, one-third to
accept baptism, and one-third to starve. [1] The respressive
legislation was repeatedly revised. Many historians noted the
concurrence of these state-enforced anti-Semitic policies with waves
of pogroms[2] that continued until 1884, with at least tacit
government knowledge and in some cases policemen were seen inciting or
joining the mob."
This has a long history, obviously --
"Muscovite treatment of the Jews became harsher in the reign of Ivan
IV, The Terrible (1533-84). For example, in his conquest of Polotsk in
February 1563, about 300 local Jews who declined to convert to
Christianity were drowned in the Dvina.
"Jews were not tolerated in the area of Muscovy, from 1721 the
official doctrine of Imperial Russia was openly anti-Semitic. Even if
Jews were tolerated for some modest time, eventually they were
expelled, as when the captured part of Ukraine was cleared of Jews in
the year 1727. These policies made Muscovite Russia a very hostile
environment for Jewish people."
That Ukrainian and Polish forces were responsible for much anti-
Semitic violence, esp. in the Civil War, is quite true -- but what
does that have to do with Martin's point, which is that virulent anti-
Semitism and violent manifestations thereof are a longstanding Russian
tradition?
Furthermore, if one has any desire to seriously consider the subject
-- doesn't it make sense to consider which forces were involved in
what? If the cavalry of Dvinsk/Dinaburg/Daugavpils gallops through
Latgallia in the mid-19th C, that's "Latvian"? Maybe Orlov's punitive
battalions were Latvian, too -- or the Polish Army, which committed
anti-Semitic acts here in 1920?
The book I suggested on the Russian roots of Nazism isn't about ethnic
Russians -- it is primarily about Baltic Germans, who were Russian
citizens and long loyal to the Czar. Some of the most reactionary
elements were forced out when Bermondt-Avalov retreated in the face of
the Latvian Army. Not a few prominent figures found their way into the
Nazi circles. Their thinking was heavily influenced by Russian
reactionaries and Russian anti-Semitism, however.
The second thing that struck me was the open-mouthed "Deporting
where?! Any references?" As has been pointed out to Karlamov time and
again, this is soc.culture.baltics, a venue for the discussion of
matters related to the Baltic states. Flabbergasted, Karlamov, who
seems to know as little about the Jews as he does about the Baltics,
seems to have never heard of what is most definitely one of the most
important events in Jewish history in the Baltics. I would again urge
Karlamov to migrate to soc.culture.soviet. Most of his posts are much
more appropriate to that group. Very few of his posts have anything to
do with the topic of this group.
Regards,
/P
Henry Alminas
I invite - nay, I urge - all those capable of
understanding Lithuanian to peruse the
article that Holman indicates.
To call Holman as being mendacious is
far too mild.
I frankly can't think of a word to describe
the man.
Despite voicing frequent opinions about the
language the man can't understand Lithuanian.
Did somebody lead him on? I doubt it.
Lying comes as naturally to him as breathing - it
would seem. That fact comes as no surprise to
us. Yet this instance is especially outrageous.
I hope that Lithuanian speakers will
voice their opinions.
Best - - Henry
tadas....@lycos.es
> Sniečkus defied the Kremlin on numerous occasions, the most important of these involving the future demographic
> and industrial development of the republic. According to Gorbachev's *Memoirs*, the Kremlin was still sparring
> success in imposing its will.
> speaking workers during the post-war years.
What's with the inverted commas around "invaded"? They are usually
used to indicated that a word is being used in an unusual or
questionable manner. What's unusual or questionable about this? Is
there any doubt in your mind as to whether they were truly invaders?
Lithuania was illegally occupied and annexed. What else would you
call carpet-baggers sent there by the Kremlin to destroy the social
fabric?
Andrius
Limonovs' movemend has start in USA when has sucked a nigers' penis.
Regards,
http://andriusblo.blogspot.com
Limonov ne fasist, Limonov prosto pederast.
Andrius
> In article <zMOdneKQK8ZiEArVnZ2dnUVZ_jmdn...@comcast.com>, "Henry Alminas"
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Uugene Holman
Bingo!
Regards,
AB
Andrius
> In article <1fadnWlizIOg0wXVnZ2dnUVZ_rLin...@comcast.com>, "Henry Alminas"
>
> <halmi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> <deletions>
>
> > Evidence suggests that this is an urban
> > legend. Hell, that scumbag didn't raise
> > a finger when members of his own
> > family were deported. He was one of
> > the truest serfs of the Kremlin and did
> > exactly what the Kremlin ordered - no
> > less and no more.
>
> No, Henry, here you are wrong. Snieckus defied the Kremlin on numerous
> occasions, the most important of these involving the future demographic
> and industrial development of the republic. According to Gorbachev's
> *Memoirs*, the Kremlin was still sparring with Snickus, for whom Gorbachev
> expresses some grudging admiration, in the early 1970s, with little
> success in imposing its will.
>
> > The scumbag had one concern and one only - the safety of his own hide.
>
> Nevertheless, he is regarded as the Lithuanian leader who prevented the
> Lithuanian SSR from being "invaded" by Russian-speaking industrial workers
> during the post-war years.
Effort to resist on Soviet globalisation (rusificatoin)?
Regards,
AB
Andrius
> On Aug 6, 7:18 am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>
> > and industrial development of the republic. According to Gorbachev's *Memoirs*, the Kremlin was still sparring
> > success in imposing its will.
> > He is regarded as the Lithuanian leader who prevented the Lithuanian SSR from being "invaded" by Russian-
> > speaking workers during the post-war years.
>
> What's with the inverted commas around "invaded"? They are usually
> used to indicated that a word is being used in an unusual or
> questionable manner. What's unusual or questionable about this? Is
> there any doubt in your mind as to whether they were truly invaders?
>
> Lithuania was illegally occupied and annexed. What else would you
> call carpet-baggers sent there by the Kremlin to destroy the social
> fabric?
Blinda, nesikabinek prie zodziu!. Dar vienas estas mat atsirado.
AB
Dmitry
> On Aug 3, 5:53 pm, MTRP™ <Mir.Topol...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> > vello wrote:
> > > liI think most
> > > of us agree that if one puts long line with soviet crimes on paper,
> > > what we get is not a definition of communism but just notice how one
> > > group in one country used that theory - we even don't know was
> > > "communism" their target or was it used just to fool folks to support
> > > their dictature.
>
> > Nonsense. Soviet "communism" was ideological like "great" French
> > revolution it was parroting till Stalin's death.
>
> No, it is not right. Communism came after French revolution get a
> fault due to lack of ideology. The negative side of Revolution became
> visible, and then Communism has born.
They learned very slow. Their Revolution didn't work out either.
>
> Regards,
> AB
Dmitry
> On Aug 3, 9:16 pm, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 3, 8:46 pm, Andrius <burl...@web.de> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 3, 7:40 am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>
> > > > In article <iU9lk.3558$%b7.16@edtnps82>, "captain."
>
> > > > <spammersmust...@now.net> wrote:
> > > > > let's discuss something that has never been brought up before in usenet: the
> > > > > nazis.
>
> > > > Alt.revisionism is the best forum for such talk. Nevertheless, the Nazis
> > > > were deeply involved in Baltic history between 1941 and 1944, so
> > > > discussing them here is not out of place.
>
> > > > world has ever seen. People are regarded as superior or inferior solely on
> > > > the basis of their bloodline. Sadly for us here in soc.culture.baltics,
> > > > one of the people who developed Nazism into a consistent and superficially
> > > > reasonable idelogical structure was Tallinn-born Alfred Rosenberg
> > > > (1893-1946). His seemingly Jewih surname notwithstanding, Rosenberg was of
> > > > Baltic German ethnicity. Rosenberg joined the Nazi party in 1923, and he
> > > > became editor of the party newspaper, *Völkischer Beobachter*. More
> > > > importantly, he put his editorial skills and industrial-strength
> > > > anti-Semistim at Hitler's dsposal, helping him to develop his rantings and
> > > > ravings into his notorious Mein Kampf*, a bopok that was at least
> > > > semi-readable and superficially coherent. For details, seehttp://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERrosenberg.htm.
>
> > > > Nazi ideology was a vulgarized form of social Darwinism.
>
> > > Impossible due that social Darwinism can not have a "normal" form. It
> > > is nonsense by nature.
>
> > Unhappily not. Let's discuss possible "soft" forms of national
> > socialism: not killing people with genetic diseases but, say,
> > encouraging gifted persons to have more kids by state stipendiums?
> > National socialism is still national socialism if we cut out
> > antisemitism, Hitler's idea to canalize negative emotions of germans.
> > So anything good for "our" nation but without harming other nations?
> > activity, it works perfectly with animals and plants/herbs giving
> > stronger and better species. If it works on anything, why not on
> > humans himself (I think I know the answer but I keep it for latter
> > time)?
> > In pure theory National Socialism is just idea what puts Nation-
> > economical interests before state ones are condemned as traitors. It
> > is not hard to find some national socialist state even today.
>
> > So much about theory. In practice, any society what denies individual
> > person as "top of the tree" appears at the end as simple tyranny.
>
> Christrianity's spoiled mind's opinion - everybody want to be a
> Jesus.
Power freaks were there before Christianity and continue to present.
>
> Regards,http://andriusblo,blogspot.com
>
> P.S. Your comparison is wrong even from the point of formal logic.- Hide quoted text -
tadas....@lycos.es
Žodžiai labai svarbūs. Reikia viską vadinti tiksliu vardu.
Andrius
Tai vadink, o nesikabinek. O pas tave inscinuacijos.
AB
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
Do you take all works of fiction literally, as documentaries?
Andrius
"Eto ya, Edicka!" is not a fiction, it is documentary.
Regards,
AB
captain.
> In article <iU9lk.3558$%b7.16@edtnps82>, "captain."
>
>> let's discuss something that has never been brought up before in usenet:
>> the
>> nazis.
>
> Alt.revisionism is the best forum for such talk. Nevertheless, the Nazis
> were deeply involved in Baltic history between 1941 and 1944, so
> discussing them here is not out of place.
>
> First of all, Nazism is one of the most virulent forms of racism that the
> world has ever seen. People are regarded as superior or inferior solely on
> the basis of their bloodline. Sadly for us here in soc.culture.baltics,
> one of the people who developed Nazism into a consistent and superficially
> reasonable idelogical structure was Tallinn-born Alfred Rosenberg
> (1893-1946). His seemingly Jewih surname notwithstanding, Rosenberg was of
> Baltic German ethnicity. Rosenberg joined the Nazi party in 1923, and he
> became editor of the party newspaper, *Völkischer Beobachter*. More
> importantly, he put his editorial skills and industrial-strength
> anti-Semistim at Hitler's dsposal, helping him to develop his rantings and
> ravings into his notorious Mein Kampf*, a bopok that was at least
> semi-readable and superficially coherent. For details, see
> http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERrosenberg.htm.
>
> form of spirituality and saw human existence as being exclusively defined
> by racial struggle. The Aryans, usually understood by the Nazis as being
> the ancient Germans and Scandinavians, were regarded as superior to all
> other races, primarily because of their culture of warfare and conquest,
> and their allegedly unique ability to create what the Nazis defined as
> high culture and civilization. The Aryans were constantly struggling to
> retain their place at the top of the racial hierarchy, their most
> pernicious enemies being the Jews. The Jews were depicted by the Nazis as
> a kind of subhuman alternative species that was capable of using parastism
> to accomplish anything and everything in their struggle to oust the Aryans
> from their superior position and thus control them and the world. Famously
> and most absurdly, the Nazis blamed the Jews for almost everything that
> thy disliked: the international financing system, moneylending against
> interest, Germany's loss of WW I, the Versailles Treaty, war profiteering,
> the hyperinflation that destroyed the German mark during the early 1920s,
> abstract art, pornography, sentimental music, jazz, dominating the arts,
> media, professions, and academia, communism, capitalism, and Christianity.
> The latter, in particular, was regarded as a noxious Jewish scam. Aryans
> were tricked into worshipping a Jewish god and dysfunctional Jewish
> family. They were urged to replace the traditional values of their ancient
> Aryan warrior-culture such as ruthlessness, revenge, and pride, with
> compassion, forgiveness, and humility. Instead of acquiring property by
> the traditional methods of pillage and plunder, they were urged to
> negotiate and strike deals based on fair exchange.
>
> A fundamental aspect of Nazi ideology was racial hygiene, which had
> internal and external dimensions. Internally, racial hygiene meant
> removing the weakest and least desirable Aryans from the genepool. Mental
> defectives, the congenitally deformed, and those lacking the desired
> racial attributes as concerns nasal architecture, eye and skin color,
> skull shape, etc. were to be forcibly sterilized or even murdered, even if
> the euphemism that the Nazis used for murdering their own people was
> "euthansia". The Nazis built six euthanasia centers, Bernburg,
> Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hadamar, Hartheim Castle, and Sonnenstein, and
> within the framework of two euthasia programs, T4 and 14f13, they killed
> more than 100,000 Germans as "useless eaters" living "lives unworthy of
> life". Externally, racial hygiene meant eliminating races that the were
> considered competitors or parasitic from the standpoint of Aryan racial
> insterests. The most obvious victims of this aspect of Nazism were the
> Jews and Gyspies (Roma and Sinti), but Poles, Russians, and others were
> also regarded as racial enemies to be eliminated.
>
> This brings us to the question of the Balts. The Nazis had mixed feelings
> about the Balts. On the one hand, they realized that the Lithuanians in
> particular were an ancient Indo-European people with close historical and
> genetic affinities to the Aryans. On the other hand, the Nazis regarded
> the territory occupied by the three Baltic nations as once having been
> conquered by the Germans during the Middle Ages, with the present, less
> desirable populations still having a high proportion of salvageable Aryan
> genetic heritage. From what I have read about this issue, the Nazis'
> long-term plans for the Baltic peoples seem to have involved selecting
> those of them with the desirable Aryan racial characteristics and
> Germanizing them. The rest were to be regarded as too racially bastardized
> to be salvageable and enslaved or exterminated. The territories of the
> Baltic countries were to be incorporated as *Lebensraum* into the Reich
> and opened to massive German colonization. The first stages of such a plan
> were implemented by the Nazis during their occupation of the Baltics
> between 1941 and 1944. In all three Baltic countries harsh measures were
> taken against the Jews and Gypsies as racial enemies, with most of them
> being exterminated, the massacres at Rumbula and Liepaja that took place
> during the last weeks of 1941 standing as particularly brutal examples of
> these efforts. Estonia, ominously, was the only country to be declared
> *judenfrei* free of Jews in the Wannsee Conference Protocol of January
> 20, 1942 as a result of this first wave of policy. The Nazis also made
> some progress in their efforts to continue the process of societal
> decapitation that had been started by the Soviets, for different reasons,
> in 1940. Thus, most of those Baltic leaders who had not been eliminated by
> the Soviets were eliminated by the Nazis. None of the three countries was
> allowed to have a military structure, and the educational systems and
> cultural life became tools for crude Nazi propaganda. The Nazis had too
> much on their plates to go much further with their program to Germanize
> the Balts and absord their territory. Eventually, as we all know, the
> Soviets prevailed over them and began their srikingly similar agenda of
> Russification, cultural genocide, economic exploitation, and territorial
> acquisition, with results readers of this group know all too well.
>
> For a systematic account of the crimes committed by the Nazis and Soviets
> on Estonian soil, see http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/index.htm. For
> a detailed and well documented case study of the activities and probable
> intentions of the Nazis in the Baltics see Andrew Ezergailis, 1996, *The
> Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944*.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
one of the flaws in their understanding of genetics was that uniformity, in
this case racial, is good for the gene pool. it's not. it is through
diversification that that gene pool is most strengthened. some crosses come
out bad, but some come out stronger than either parent group. these are the
ones that push evolution forward.
captain.
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> wrote in message
news:626eaa33-d2d7-48b1...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> no one
will follow you when you jump on a white horse with naked sword in
hand :-)
- sounds like one of mtrp's fantasies.
captain.
"MTRP™" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:cccc533f-6bb2-4fba...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
vello wrote:
> MTRP™ wrote:
> > vello wrote:
> > > liI think most
> > > of us agree that if one puts long line with soviet crimes on paper,
> > > what we get is not a definition of communism but just notice how one
> > > group in one country used that theory - we even don't know was
> > > "communism" their target or was it used just to fool folks to support
> > > their dictature.
> > Nonsense. Soviet "communism" was ideological like "great" French
> > revolution it was parroting till Stalin's death.
Yes.
> Ideology disappears much earlier with the first generation of
> revolution makers
Crap. Soviet communist ideology survived Stalin and died later...
fisrt post-Stalin dissidents kept dreaming about "true communism". As
usual my clue is much bigger than yours, so sit quite pleez.
- perhaps on the activist/lower party member level but in the higher
echelons of government, communism was dead. hunger for power and nkvd
authority took care of that.
captain.
<tadas....@lycos.es> wrote in message
news:9778cece-251d-4815...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Vox clamantis in desertis. (re: "Let's not waste time talking about
> nazism")
>
>
> <spammer...@now.net> was only being facetious when he wrote:
> "Let's discuss something that has never been brought up before in
> usenet: the nazis."
>
> Holman thought all his birthdays had come at once:
>
>> > > > > Alt.revisionism is the best forum for such talk. Nevertheless,
>> > > > > the Nazis
>> > > > > were deeply involved in Baltic history between 1941 and 1944, so
>> > > > > discussing them here is not out of place.
>
> are sexier than Soviet crimes. (At least more pulp fiction and
> Hollywood movies have been inspired by them.)
>
> Seems to me it's getting almost as bad as the fact that you can murder
> as many pigs, cows, sheep and suchlike as you wish and nobody's
> interested; whereas just dare to touch one of the pin-up mammals such
> as whale, seal or dolphin and all hell breaks loose. Oh, the power of
> fashion and peer-group conformity.
- this post recieves the mark of truth.
captain.
<ostap_be...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e1027abe-9b42-45bf...@p31g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
- karla, surely you can't deny that jewish people even today face
discrimination in russia. from what i've heard, it's much better now than in
the past but it's still there. it would be a great day when jews don't have
to worry about that anymore. perhaps if there was no more israel...
captain.
"MTRPT" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:8b3081ce-4196-46ed...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
blaming america for hitler? lol...
MTRP™
> MTRP™ wrote:
> > Hey, let's not forget Bush clan. GW's grandpa Prescott Bush was busy
> > financing Hitler's NS party and his crucial election campaign (and
> > more) ... the odd are that without Bush's money Hitler would not be
> > elected (and hence appointed the Reichschancellor). Little wonder that
> > Henry voted for GW - twice!! :-)
> > http://ecosyn.us/Bush-Hitler/Bush-Hitler.html
> > http://clamormagazine.org/issues/14/feature3.php
> blaming america for hitler? lol...
lol yourself and read the sources.
MTRP™
P.S. And check Google for (US-made) Great Depression:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/weimar_depression_1929.htm ...
Eugene Holman
<halm...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:holman-0508...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
<deletions>
> I invite - nay, I urge - all those capable of
> understanding Lithuanian to peruse the
> article that Holman indicates.
>
> To call Holman as being mendacious is
> far too mild.
>
> I frankly can't think of a word to describe
> the man.
>
> Despite voicing frequent opinions about the
> language the man can't understand Lithuanian.
Henry, I've been participating in this forum for more than fifteen years.
Dont you think that a person with that much interest in Baltic affairs
would have at least gone to the trouble to acquire a reading knowledge of
Lithuanian and Latvian? Additionally, I usually post from our university
library. No more than five meters from where I am sitting there are three
shelves full of Lithuanian and Latvian grammars, dictionaries, and
philological tools. Our university has a depertment of Baltic studies, the
teachers at which are my colleagues. A good friend of mine is the lecturer
in Finnish at a Lithuanian university, and she has mastered Lithuaian
during the three years she has been there. Our translation bureau
translates into and out of Lithuanian. Thus, I have abundant resources
available if I am working with a Lithuanian text and do not understand
something.
You are the one who claims that linguistics is useless. Nevertheless, a
person familiar with grammatical theory, Indo-European morphology and
lexicon, and the techniques acquiring a passive command of a language can
pick up a reading knowledge of Lithuanian in a few months.
> Did somebody lead him on? I doubt it.
> Lying comes as naturally to him as breathing - it
> would seem. That fact comes as no surprise to
> us. Yet this instance is especially outrageous.
>
> I hope that Lithuanian speakers will
> voice their opinions.
Best,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<3b2951d7-7f44-4e2d...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
tadas....@lycos.es wrote:
> On Aug 6, 7:18=A0am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
> > Snie=E8kus defied the Kremlin on numerous occasions, the most important o=
> f these involving the future demographic
> > and industrial development of the republic. According to Gorbachev's *Mem=
> oirs*, the Kremlin was still sparring
> > with Snie=E8kus, for whom Gorbachev expresses some grudging admiration, i=
> n the early 1970s, with little
> > success in imposing its will.
> > He is regarded as the Lithuanian leader who prevented the Lithuanian SSR =
> from being "invaded" by Russian-
> > speaking workers during the post-war years.
>
> What's with the inverted commas around "invaded"? They are usually
> used to indicated that a word is being used in an unusual or
> questionable manner. What's unusual or questionable about this? Is
> there any doubt in your mind as to whether they were truly invaders?
No, there isnt. My use of the inverted commas was to emphasize that
Lithuania got a trickl (about 10% of the population when the USSR
collapsed), while Estonia (38%) and Latvia (48%) got torrent.
Republic-level language policy in Soviet Lithuania was to force migrants
to study Lithuanian seriously as a school subject, for which reason most
of the younger non-Lithuanian migrants actually learned te language,
something that did not take place in Soviet-occupied Latvia or Estonia.
> Lithuania was illegally occupied and annexed. What else would you
> call carpet-baggers sent there by the Kremlin to destroy the social
> fabric?
There are migrants and invaders. As far as I understand it, serious
attempts were made in Soviet Lithuania to keep the number of migrants in
check and integrate them to some degree into Lithuanian society. In Latvia
and Estonia migration was more unconstrained, and there were large enough
numbers of migrant sin both republics for them to establish an alternative
society that had little contact with or concern about the titular
populations of the republics. I those two republics, I would venture,
there was more justification for speaking of an actual invasion.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
> "Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:holman-0508...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
<deletions>
> I invite - nay, I urge - all those capable of
> understanding Lithuanian to peruse the
> article that Holman indicates.
>
> To call Holman as being mendacious is
> far too mild.
>
> I frankly can't think of a word to describe
> the man.
>
> Despite voicing frequent opinions about the
> language the man can't understand Lithuanian.
Henry, I've been participating in this forum for more than fifteen years.
Don't you think that a person with that much interest in Baltic affairs
would have at least gone to the trouble to acquire a reading knowledge of
Lithuanian and Latvian? Additionally, I usually post from our university
library. No more than five meters from where I am sitting there are three
shelves full of Lithuanian and Latvian grammars, dictionaries, and
philological tools. Our university has a depertment of Baltic studies, the
teachers at which are my colleagues. A good friend of mine is the lecturer
in Finnish at a Lithuanian university, and she has mastered Lithuaian
during the three years she has been there. Our translation bureau
translates into and out of Lithuanian. Thus, I have abundant resources
available if I am working with a Lithuanian text and do not understand
something. Particularly useful, for those interested, is *Mokomasis
lietuviu kalbos z^odynas*, by Milda Norkaitiene, Rita S^epetyte, and Zita
S^imenaite, ISBN 9955-00-062-7.
You also forget that I have co-authored a book that was subsequently
translated into Lithuanian (under the name: Eugenius Holmanas), Latvian
(under the name Judz^ins Holmans), Estonian, and Russian. I have read
every word of all four versions, appropriate dictionary in hand when
necessary.
You are the one who claims that linguistics is useless. Nevertheless, a
person familiar with grammatical theory, Indo-European morphology and
lexicon, and the techniques for acquiring a passive command of a language can
pick up a reading knowledge of Lithuanian in a few months.
> Did somebody lead him on? I doubt it.
For once you are correct. I found the article myself and archived it long
ago. This is, after all, not the first time I have brought up the topic of
the Grand Old Man in this forum. The article deals with a conference held
on the occasion of the 100th anniversary of his death devoted to
discussion of the degree to which he is better regarded as a late-blooming
national chauvinist or a tool of the occupants bent on destroying his own
people.
> Lying comes as naturally to him as breathing - it
> would seem.
You are being quite silly. What am I lying about? What is so mendacious
about a person supporting his take on Lithuanian communist leader Antanas
Sniec^kus by referring to an article in Lithuanian about him titled
*Antanas Sniec^kus. Kas jis?* ('Antanas Sniec^kus. Who is he?', better
'Antanas Sniec^kus: a question mark'). What is so strange about a person
genuinely interested in Baltic issues making an effort to learn to at
least read the local languages?
captain.
"MTRP™" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:bb652b7f-7678-4a41...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
- so now the usa is to blame for germany being bankrupted by WW1. of
couuuuurse.....