"Touring garbage".
Henry Alminas
Does the price exacted by this
industry from the host nations
exceed the benefits (mainly for
the more dubious element of the
afflicted societies)?
Some time ago Vidas and I got into
it a bit on this subject. I would like
to hear some other opinions on this
problem
Der Spiegel has an article about this.
The garbage, it seems, just flows to
the areas of least resistance. I, as
you may recall, proposed that this
resistance be increased.
Let me hear you on this subject.
In: Der Spiegel (in English):
By: Erich Wiedemann
BUDGET BOOZING IN THE BALTIC
British Stag Parties Head East in Search of Cheap Beer
Just a short and cheap EasyJet or Ryanair flight away from
London, Western European tourists are storming Eastern
European cities like Tallinn and Riga. Unfortunately, British
binge drinkers are too. By Erich Wiedemann more...
At:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,475754,00.html
Best - - Henry
lora...@cs.com
I have been against this sort of condoned hoologanism from the very
first post about it in SCB.
And said so.
Whatever money these drunks bring with them is significantly offset by
the damage they cause to the countries they visit. Many of them are
probably diseased as well.
And whatever money they do spend looks likely to end up in that
segment of the local population that is least beneficial to the local
societies.
Summary:
They are just young punks looking for trouble and should be treated
that way.. upside the head with a billy club for the next punk caught
pissing in public.
darsi...@comcast.net
Henry, your inability to comprehend the issue is truly astounding.
Your solution is to close the borders. Hui's solution is to become a
violent police state.
I expect youll make a fine General Secretary of the new LTSR and Hui
can be your secret police chief. Totalitarianism blooms in Colorado
like field wildflowers near the Flatirons. Congratulations.
Vidas
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
"Grecinieku iela," the first street described in the article, means
"Sinners' Street," by the way...
My opinion is that the Old Town has become unbelievably vile in the
summer, but there's not a lot that can or should be done about it
other than increased policing and being a bit more logical about how
the main problems are dealt with -- more public toilets should be
built, for instance (perhaps attractive _vespasiennes_...). Bars can
deny entrance, as suggested in the article -- if places don't want
that trade, it's up to them.
But bear something in mind -- okay, so there are some drunken Brits
getting wildly drunk and dancing weird ritualistic football dances in
in the streets; the bad behavior, though frequent, is however confined
to a minority of visitors. That share is still a small share, and
there are a great many more desirable tourists in town these days as
well.
Most people I know mostly avoid the Old Town now -- but as a rather
conservative friend of mine put it, it's still better than it was
under the Soviets. So, it's lively -- like the French Quarter in New
Orleans, pretty much. Like in New Orleans, there's a whole city out
there where the lager louts rarely stray. Meanwhile, it fills a lot of
pockets, and we need that. As to their "probably having diseases" --
no, most are just normal young people living it up before settling
down to become office managers, etc. We have more diseases than they
do. It's not the end of the world.
Perhaps Aleks' April Fool's Day post is the direction to go in --
http://www.allaboutlatvia.com/article/576/adult-playground-is-proposed
Regards,
/P
Eugene Holman
"=?iso-8859-1?q?Peteris_Cedrin=9A_(Peteris_Cedrins)?=" <ced...@gmail.com>
wrote:
<deletions>
>
> "Grecinieku iela," the first street described in the article, means
> "Sinners' Street," by the way...
>
> My opinion is that the Old Town has become unbelievably vile in the
> summer, but there's not a lot that can or should be done about it
> other than increased policing and being a bit more logical about how
> the main problems are dealt with -- more public toilets should be
> built, for instance (perhaps attractive _vespasiennes_...).
More public toilets *and* more burly doormen are needed. Of course there
is nothing wrong with opening a few places or assigning a block or two
with a reputation for catering to the lager louts. St. Pauli and the
Reeperbahn in Hamburg might be a bit extreme, but the baddies have money
to be spent, too.
> Bars can
> deny entrance, as suggested in the article -- if places don't want
> that trade, it's up to them.
Having a business establishment in the center of town and then denying
potential clientel entrance on the basis of prejudices about their
potential behavior does not seem like a viable business model.
> But bear something in mind -- okay, so there are some drunken Brits
> getting wildly drunk and dancing weird ritualistic football dances in
> in the streets; the bad behavior, though frequent, is however confined
> to a minority of visitors. That share is still a small share, and
> there are a great many more desirable tourists in town these days as
> well.
Tourists staying in hotels and eating and drinking in up-market
restaurants easily go through 100 euros a day. The Baltic countries cannot
afford to turn their noses up to such a cash flow, particularly given the
fact that they are still in the process of scratching their way out of
obscurity.
> Most people I know mostly avoid the Old Town now -- but as a rather
> conservative friend of mine put it, it's still better than it was
> under the Soviets. So, it's lively -- like the French Quarter in New
> Orleans, pretty much. Like in New Orleans, there's a whole city out
> there where the lager louts rarely stray. Meanwhile, it fills a lot of
> pockets, and we need that.
Precisely. The Baltic countries do not want to be dismissed as "distant
countries, about which we know little". There are worse things in this
world than being known as a place where you can get pig-facedly drunk and,
perhaps, satisfy other basic instincts, for a bargain price. There are,
believe me, worse things in this world.
> As to their "probably having diseases" --
> no, most are just normal young people living it up before settling
> down to become office managers, etc. We have more diseases than they
> do. It's not the end of the world.
<deletions>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
Eugene Holman wrote:
> In article <1176009752.5...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> "=?iso-8859-1?q?Peteris_Cedrin=9A_(Peteris_Cedrins)?=" <ced...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> <deletions>
[deletions]
> > Bars can
> > deny entrance, as suggested in the article -- if places don't want
> > that trade, it's up to them.
>
> Having a business establishment in the center of town and then denying
> potential clientel entrance on the basis of prejudices about their
> potential behavior does not seem like a viable business model.
It can be perfectly viable -- it's no different from some shops in the
US banning groups of teenagers (common near secondary schools and
housing projects). They may get money from teens on the way home from
school, but the hassle and theft makes the trade not worth it. In the
case of a bar, atmosphere is part of the reason people go out. If you
own a quiet piano bar, having a group of Brits on a stag party drives
away the customers you are geared towards. By the way, even the French
Quarter in New Orleans has places where the average Bourbon Street
tourist is not made welcome... or is made distinctly unwelcome.
> > But bear something in mind -- okay, so there are some drunken Brits
> > getting wildly drunk and dancing weird ritualistic football dances in
> > in the streets; the bad behavior, though frequent, is however confined
> > to a minority of visitors. That share is still a small share, and
> > there are a great many more desirable tourists in town these days as
> > well.
>
> Tourists staying in hotels and eating and drinking in up-market
> restaurants easily go through 100 euros a day. The Baltic countries cannot
> afford to turn their noses up to such a cash flow, particularly given the
> fact that they are still in the process of scratching their way out of
> obscurity.
Much more than that! Baltic hotel prices are mostly quite murderous,
and the neglect of developing a decent, broad tourist infrastructure
adds to the "touring garbage" problem.
One of the major aspects of the problem is that _not_ turning up our
noses at the worst of the trade can ruin the city as a tourist
destination for others (putting aside the effects upon the locals). If
you come to Riga in the summer and experience the Old Town when it is
full of drunken Brits, strip clubs, etc., you're unlikely to enjoy it
if you came to Riga for the Jugendstil and high culture. You won't
come back, and you won't tell your friends to come.
> > Most people I know mostly avoid the Old Town now -- but as a rather
> > conservative friend of mine put it, it's still better than it was
> > under the Soviets. So, it's lively -- like the French Quarter in New
> > Orleans, pretty much. Like in New Orleans, there's a whole city out
> > there where the lager louts rarely stray. Meanwhile, it fills a lot of
> > pockets, and we need that.
>
> Precisely. The Baltic countries do not want to be dismissed as "distant
> countries, about which we know little". There are worse things in this
> world than being known as a place where you can get pig-facedly drunk and,
> perhaps, satisfy other basic instincts, for a bargain price. There are,
> believe me, worse things in this world.
There are worse things in this world, of course, but I well understand
why people are upset -- the Old Town was a nearly sacred place for me
even before I ever set foot there, and when I lived in Riga I had some
mystical experiences that reminded me of Salinš's poem about drawing
one's breath deep down, into the Middle Ages. Saint John's cloister
courtyard, for example -- used as a passage from one street to
another, one would feel a spring wind in utter silence sometimes, the
cobblestones obviously alive. There is a famous Belševica poem about
stones' memory of the conquerors and the noise of the ephemeral --
Veji trako. Veji kauc. Riga kluse.
Kluse akmens sievas kailas,
Kluse heraldiskie zveri.
Kluse torni. Tornu galos
Gaili kluse
Veji ardas. Veji rec. Riga kluse.
Ta ka atslega, kas kluse,
Kad ap dzelzi svistot sitas
Panemeja pulss.
Iekarotajs vienmer krit.
Vina asinis uz bruga
Kluses.
Veji veze. Veji sit. Riga kluse.
Vienaldziba? Trulums? Glevums?
Nejauta. Tev neatbildes.
Parejošam vajag kliegt.
Taisnoties. Pieradit.
Mužigais var kluset.
The silence that Riga keeps in that poem, waiting for the end of the
Russian occupation, has been ruined by greed and bad taste -- for many
people I know, the current cacaphony is like a rape.
Regards,
/P
Dmitry
They have missed their moments -((
>
> I expect youll make a fine General Secretary of the new LTSR and Hui
> can be your secret police chief. Totalitarianism blooms in Colorado
> like field wildflowers near the Flatirons. Congratulations.
>
> Vidas- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dmitry
<cedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
There are places that don't allow large groups in. Free public
toilets could certainly solve "pissing in public" problem. It's a
vicious circle; Ryanair does cheap flights because lots of Latvians
work in England - British stag party goers go to Rīga because of same
cheap flights (and beer). Perhaps, shifting the salaries to European
level would solve the problem.
>
> But bear something in mind -- okay, so there are some drunken Brits
> getting wildly drunk and dancing weird ritualistic football dances in
> in the streets; the bad behavior, though frequent, is however confined
> to a minority of visitors. That share is still a small share, and
> there are a great many more desirable tourists in town these days as
> well.
True.
>
> Most people I know mostly avoid the Old Town now -- but as a rather
> conservative friend of mine put it, it's still better than it was
> under the Soviets.
Vecrīga looks better now than in above mentioned time. I still think
that Revolution/Neatkarības muzejs and the other grey building round
the corner should be replaced by something that fits the style of
Vecrīga.
> So, it's lively -- like the French Quarter in New
> Orleans, pretty much. Like in New Orleans, there's a whole city out
> there where the lager louts rarely stray. Meanwhile, it fills a lot of
> pockets, and we need that. As to their "probably having diseases" --
> no, most are just normal young people living it up before settling
> down to become office managers, etc. We have more diseases than they
> do. It's not the end of the world.
>
> Perhaps Aleks' April Fool's Day post is the direction to go in --
>
> http://www.allaboutlatvia.com/article/576/adult-playground-is-proposed
-:)))) The plan includes the protection of Russian tourists.
>
> Regards,
> /P
>
> http://lettonica.blogspot.com/- Hide quoted text -
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Ryanair does cheap flights because Ryanair makes money, and because
Šlesers brought Ryanair in. Shifting salaries without regard for
production is doom, and doom is where we are. The last week saw two
major ratings drop to negative. You can't raise salaries if you don't
produce anything. You can't produce anything in this system as
applied.
> > But bear something in mind -- okay, so there are some drunken Brits
> > getting wildly drunk and dancing weird ritualistic football dances in
> > in the streets; the bad behavior, though frequent, is however confined
> > to a minority of visitors. That share is still a small share, and
> > there are a great many more desirable tourists in town these days as
> > well.
>
> True.
>
> >
> > Most people I know mostly avoid the Old Town now -- but as a rather
> > conservative friend of mine put it, it's still better than it was
> > under the Soviets.
>
> Vecrīga looks better now than in above mentioned time. I still think
> that Revolution/Neatkarības muzejs and the other grey building round
> the corner should be replaced by something that fits the style of
> Vecrīga.
It's not a Neatkarības muzejs but the Okupācijas muzejs and it should
stay where it is, in my view. Most of those who want to move it are
either _homines sovietici_ or rich boys on a sort of crack. The model
for changing its architecture, by Birkerts, has long been around --
somebody has to pay for it, though. Of course, it is an eyesore for
those who refuse to look history in the eye.
Vsego khoroshego,
/P
Dmitry
> Ryanair does cheap flights because Ryanair makes money, and because
> production is doom, and doom is where we are. The last week saw two
> major ratings drop to negative. You can't raise salaries if you don't
> produce anything. You can't produce anything in this system as
> applied.
So it eventually comes down to tourist industry, whatever it brings.
> It's not a Neatkarîbas muzejs but the Okupâcijas muzejs and it should
> stay where it is, in my view.
I appologise for inappropriate joke, but I do think that the building
doesn't fit with two new buildings next to it. Why do you think it
should stay there?
> Most of those who want to move it are
> either _homines sovietici_ or rich boys on a sort of crack.
I'm not rich or sovietici, as you know, but I do care about the look
of Vecrīga. History is very important, but you wouldn't be too
pleased having pigeon shit collector (Ļeņins) next to Hotel Latvia.
I don't mind communist pieces to be exposed to public as part of
bitter history, but they shouldn't spoil the view of the city.
> The model
> for changing its architecture, by Birkerts, has long been around --
> somebody has to pay for it, though. Of course, it is an eyesore for
> those who refuse to look history in the eye.
>
> Vsego khoroshego,
> /P- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Dmitry wrote:
> > Ryanair does cheap flights because Ryanair makes money, and because
> > Ðlesers brought Ryanair in. Shifting salaries without regard for
> > production is doom, and doom is where we are. The last week saw two
> > major ratings drop to negative. You can't raise salaries if you don't
> > produce anything. You can't produce anything in this system as
> > applied.
>
> So it eventually comes down to tourist industry, whatever it brings.
>
> > It's not a Neatkarîbas muzejs but the Okupâcijas muzejs and it should
> > stay where it is, in my view.
>
> I appologise for inappropriate joke, but I do think that the building
> doesn't fit with two new buildings next to it. Why do you think it
> should stay there?
>
> > Most of those who want to move it are
> > either _homines sovietici_ or rich boys on a sort of crack.
>
> I'm not rich or sovietici, as you know, but I do care about the look
> of Vecrīga. History is very important, but you wouldn't be too
> pleased having pigeon shit collector (Ļeņins) next to Hotel Latvia.
>
> I don't mind communist pieces to be exposed to public as part of
> bitter history, but they shouldn't spoil the view of the city.
Yes they should! Spoil the view! I would redesign it as a glassy black
box, but there already was a redesign -- it just wasn't redone,
because the museum is so inconvenient. But it is even better as
hideous as it is. It doesn't spoil the look of the city -- it _is_ the
city, one of few places that speaks to its recent history. Melngalvju
nams is much uglier -- a cheap replica of a lost, ugly past that isn't
even ours. The buildings near to it are fakery -- the Okupācijas
muzejs is the only reality left in Vecrīga.
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Hmm, now the diacritics appeared? Then let me try to repost the poem
by Vizma Belševica --
Vēji trako. Vēji kauc. Rīga klusē.
Klusē akmens sievas kailās,
Klusē heraldiskie zvēri.
Klusē torņi. Torņu galos
Gaiļi klusē
Vēji ārdās. Vēji rēc. Rīga klusē.
Tā kā atslēga, kas klusē,
Kad ap dzelzi svīstot sitas
Paņēmēja pulss.
Iekarotājs vienmēr krīt.
Viņa asinis uz bruģa
Klusēs.
Vēji vēzē. Vēji sit. Rīga klusē.
Vienaldzība? Trulums? Gļēvums?
Nejautā. Tev neatbildēs.
Pārejošam vajag kliegt.
Taisnoties. Pierādīt.
Mūžīgais var klusēt.
J. Anderson
"Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176053142.1...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> the Okupacijas muzejs is the only reality left in Vecriga.
Please, Peeteri!
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
You disagree? I mean that in the sense that it long ago became a
vacuous playground.
/P
J. Anderson
But 'in reality' everything there in one way or another is related to the
city's past (and present). Even the new Schwarzhäupterhaus has its own
message. Would you have preferred a 'conserved' Vecriiga? From what period,
in that case?
What will you say when the new Vilnius castle is ready? And perhaps the
Bronze Soldier should be left where it is to portray 'the only reality left
in Tallinn'?
Teisiingi*,
John
* Baltic Prussian for 'respectfully'
Aleks
eye-sore; it doesn't fit, but it's an architectural way of not
forgetting the history and that Soviet period with its Soviet
architecture.
It's different that a Tallinn's soldier in that respect.
On Apr 8, 4:21 pm, "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> wrote:
> "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedr...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1176061405....@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > J. Anderson wrote:
> >> "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Dmitry
> > bitter history, but they shouldn't spoil the view of the city.
>
> Yes they should! Spoil the view!
Dom Kolhoznika is enough.
> I would redesign it as a glassy black
> box, but there already was a redesign -- it just wasn't redone,
> because the museum is so inconvenient.
There weren't many visitors then and not many now.
> But it is even better as
> hideous as it is. It doesn't spoil the look of the city -- it _is_ the
> city, one of few places that speaks to its recent history. Melngalvju
> nams is much uglier -- a cheap replica of a lost, ugly past that isn't
> even ours.
I take your point, but I think melngalvju nams is more compatible with
the rest of Vecrīga than revolution museum.
> The buildings near to it are fakery -- the Okupācijas
> muzejs is the only reality left in Vecrīga.
May be I have lived in that reality for too long? Certain buildings
remind me of certain things. BTW, do you know if anybody still lays
the flowers to the monument next to it?
Dmitry
> I'm with Peeteris about the Okupacijas Muzejs in the Old City. It's an
> eye-sore; it doesn't fit, but it's an architectural way of not
> forgetting the history and that Soviet period with its Soviet
> architecture.
There are plenty of those to remind of Soviet period outside central
Rīga.
>
> It's different that a Tallinn's soldier in that respect.
Of course it is. Russian revolution resulted in Latvia's first
independence, Red army 'liberators' brought Estonia back to being
occupied.
Do you know many Latvians of your age and younger who are interested
in Soviet past?
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Dmitry wrote:
> > > I don't mind communist pieces to be exposed to public as part of
> > > bitter history, but they shouldn't spoil the view of the city.
> >
> > Yes they should! Spoil the view!
>
> Dom Kolhoznika is enough.
>
> > I would redesign it as a glassy black
> > box, but there already was a redesign -- it just wasn't redone,
> > because the museum is so inconvenient.
>
> There weren't many visitors then and not many now.
Every time I've been there, there have been _lots_ of visitors. The
museum is also a major focus for tourists -- I've read many travelers'
accounts describing it. The museum also hosts conferences and works on
projects, for instance collecting video testimony, and many
participate in those.
It's not nconvenient because people don't go there -- it's
inconvenient to those who wish to whitewash our history.
> > But it is even better as
> > hideous as it is. It doesn't spoil the look of the city -- it _is_ the
> > city, one of few places that speaks to its recent history. Melngalvju
> > nams is much uglier -- a cheap replica of a lost, ugly past that isn't
> > even ours.
>
> I take your point, but I think melngalvju nams is more compatible with
> the rest of Vecrīga than revolution museum.
>
> > The buildings near to it are fakery -- the Okupācijas
> > muzejs is the only reality left in Vecrīga.
>
> May be I have lived in that reality for too long? Certain buildings
> remind me of certain things. BTW, do you know if anybody still lays
> the flowers to the monument next to it?
Haven't noticed flowers there. With regard to the Riflemen, I agree
with those who think the monument should be moved to a more
appropriate place (the current site has nothing to do with them).
Regards,
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
J. Anderson wrote:
> "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1176061405....@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > J. Anderson wrote:
> >> "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1176053142.1...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> > the Okupacijas muzejs is the only reality left in Vecriga.
> >>
> >> Please, Peeteri!
> >
> > You disagree? I mean that in the sense that it long ago became a
> > vacuous playground.
>
> But 'in reality' everything there in one way or another is related to the
> city's past (and present). Even the new Schwarzhäupterhaus has its own
> message. Would you have preferred a 'conserved' Vecriiga? From what period,
> in that case?
>
> What will you say when the new Vilnius castle is ready? And perhaps the
> Bronze Soldier should be left where it is to portray 'the only reality left
> in Tallinn'?
>
> Teisiingi*,
> John
>
> * Baltic Prussian for 'respectfully'
I don't mean it literally, of course, and I wouldn't agitate for
freezing the Old Town in time -- but a little more care for how its
treated would be in order. Strict regulation of signs, for instance.
Getting rid of the cars (something that has been in the works for
years but doesn't happen -- we were the first country with a Green
Prime Minister, we don't even have a deposit on bottles like our
neighbors do...). Care for the other important institutions in the
area, like the Literature Museum, which is falling apart. As to the
Vinius castle -- I have the same opinion I have of the
Schwarzhäupterhaus; replicas are twadry, and the money would be better
spent on surviving landmarks, many of which are in desperate
condition.
Regards,
/P
Eugene Holman
"=?windows-1257?q?P=E7teris_Cedri=F2=F0_(Peteris_Cedrins)?="
<ced...@gmail.com> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> I don't mean it literally, of course, and I wouldn't agitate for
> freezing the Old Town in time -- but a little more care for how its
> treated would be in order. Strict regulation of signs, for instance.
> Getting rid of the cars (something that has been in the works for
> years but doesn't happen -- we were the first country with a Green
> Prime Minister, we don't even have a deposit on bottles like our
> neighbors do...).
Tallinn Old Town is a good model. Cars are restricted, but not totally banned.
> Care for the other important institutions in the
> area, like the Literature Museum, which is falling apart. As to the
> Vinius castle -- I have the same opinion I have of the
> Schwarzh=E4upterhaus; replicas are twadry, and the money would be better
> spent on surviving landmarks, many of which are in desperate
> condition.
The Schwarzhäupterhaus was a gem, its destruction was a tragedy.
Rebuilding it was an act of piety, a victory of form over content or
function.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
J. Anderson
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-0904...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
Yesterday I was watching a TV documentary about the Mostar bridge, which was
deliberately destroyed by the Croats during the Bosnian war. As you know,
the bridge has been rebuilt (with 15 mill. EU euros) and now symbolically
re-unites the ethnically cleansed city, where the Muslims withdrew to their
side of the river (Neretva) and the Croats to theirs.
Replicas may seem tawdry (if you want to see it that way) for a few years
until they again become a natural part of the cityscape. Warsaw would be
almost entirely without any charm, had not the Old Town and the Nowy Swiat
area been rebuilt in the 1950's. Dresden has been partly rebuilt, and the
locals love their old-new 'Elb-Florenz'. The Römerberg district in
Frankfurt/Main is another positive example.
Vello mentioned the mindless (Soviet) destruction of Narva in 1944. I wish
parts of the Narva old town could be rebuilt just for my personal
pleasure...
Let's not be so categorical!
Regards,
John
Dmitry
> The
> museum is also a major focus for tourists -- I've read many travelers'
> accounts describing it.
Yes, I know somebody who visited this museum recently and described it
to me as being very interesting.
>The museum also hosts conferences and works on
> projects, for instance collecting video testimony, and many
> participate in those.
>
> It's not nconvenient because people don't go there -- it's
> inconvenient to those who wish to whitewash our history.
>
I can see the parallel: 'ugly building' represents 'ugly part of
history'. But should we surround ourselves with unpleasant structures
just because of dark parts of history? I'm not questioning the
importance of this museum and its work. It's the building itself that
I don't like and in my opinion it shouldn't be built in the first
place.
>
> Haven't noticed flowers there. With regard to the Riflemen, I agree
> with those who think the monument should be moved to a more
> appropriate place (the current site has nothing to do with them).
It is also part of Latvian history and it looks like both structures
were put there to compliment each other. Shouldn't they be both moved
elsewhere? Even glassy black box would look better...
>
> Regards,
> /P
darsi...@comcast.net
<cedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As to the
> Vinius castle -- I have the same opinion I have of the
> Schwarzhäupterhaus; replicas are twadry, and the money would be better
> spent on surviving landmarks, many of which are in desperate
> condition.
>
> Regards,
> /P
Let me be the first to offer my mega-dittos to that sentiment.
Money is too short to provide maintenance and protection for most
every National Park, historical building or even Kryziu Kalnas.
But Cha-ching! Another million deposited in the First National Bank of
Political Favors to help build the "artists rendition" Brazausko
Rumai !
Vidas
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
The plans for redoing the museum, by Gunnar Birkerts (author of the
National Library, which will finally be built), are displayed in the
windows of the museum. As it is now -- when it rains, it rains in the
museum. Somebody has to pay for redoing it, and I would rather see it
stand there until someone does, instead of seeing it shunted off to a
place nobody will go to. The political travails are indicative, though
-- there are a lot of people who don't want the museum to exist at
all. Same with the infamous "Stura maja" -- "the House on the Corner,"
Stabu/Brivibas (Engelsa/Lenina); old joke -- what's the tallest
building in Riga? "The House on the Corner" -- from the sixth floor,
you can see Siberia! Last year, you could buy it -- wonder who did? In
Daugavpils, the Gestapo basement is a bar/restaurant. Even the plaque
was removed.
Regards,
/P
Dmitry
> The plans for redoing the museum, by Gunnar Birkerts (author of the
> National Library, which will finally be built), are displayed in the
> windows of the museum. As it is now -- when it rains, it rains in the
> museum. Somebody has to pay for redoing it, and I would rather see it
> stand there until someone does, instead of seeing it shunted off to a
> place nobody will go to.
I agree, it won’t be very useful outside central Rīga.
> The political travails are indicative, though
> -- there are a lot of people who don't want the museum to exist at
> all.
Is it to do with the building or the content?
> Same with the infamous "Stura maja" -- "the House on the Corner,"
> Stabu/Brivibas (Engelsa/Lenina); old joke -- what's the tallest
> building in Riga? "The House on the Corner" -- from the sixth floor,
> you can see Siberia! Last year, you could buy it -- wonder who did?
I’ve been there, can’t remember what floor, but “Siberia” has crossed
my mind at the time. There is an element of truth in that joke. What
was in that building between 1991 and 2006?
> In
> Daugavpils, the Gestapo basement is a bar/restaurant. Even the plaque
> was removed.
Stura maja could be turned in to hotel, it has some spacious rooms and
the cellar could become a cozy bar.
>
> Regards,
> /P
>
> http://lettonica.blogspot.com/- Hide quoted text -
Henry Alminas
"Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176048990.4...@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Vsego khoroshego,
/P
The "thread", it seems, has moved on and,
as is the nature of threads, has morphed into
something else. Yet I would like to return
to the original subject - even if that brands
me as something akin to a functionary of
the most murderous empire - ever. Or, so
Vidas tells me.
First I wish to thank those who have answered
my question - fewer than I had hoped yet, I
imagine, providing a fair index of the
attitude toward the problem raised.
My argument with Vidas is his thesis that
absolutely nothing can be done and one must
just grin and bear it - nay, even profit from
it. I say that if you get on that RR line the
end-point is something akin to what we see
in Thailand. I would imagine that even
semi-rational people would want to get
off the thundering train *way, way* before
it reaches the end point.
Here I am not talking about a prudish aversion
to "sin". That has existed as long as has the
human race and will, presumably, exist until
its interesting end. Any even semi-competent
city administration (not to mention country)
and its police force understands that. Each
city has it and a functional city has it under
control. That is - a certain degree of it is
tolerated within a circumscribed area. Ideally
the city administration knows who is running
it and makes an informal accommodation with
those that do. If they step too far over the
line - they get zapped. If not - business goes
one. I am no criminologist yet I am told that
is how it generally works.
Peteris mentions more policing and areal
restrictions. Those methods are quite in line
with what is practiced. I would add some
restrictions on the "tour businesses" organizing
these things or other types of "profiling"
The main point here is to prevent the formation
of a reputation that:"The Baltics is a place
where anything goes - for a price". That, in
certain blogs, is already being trumpeted.
Best - - Henry
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Henry Alminas wrote:
> "Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1176048990.4...@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dmitry wrote:
> > On 8 Apr, 06:22, "Peteris Cedrinð (Peteris Cedrins)"
> > cheap flights (and beer). Perhaps, shifting the salaries to European
> > level would solve the problem.
>
> Ryanair does cheap flights because Ryanair makes money, and because
> production is doom, and doom is where we are. The last week saw two
> major ratings drop to negative. You can't raise salaries if you don't
> produce anything. You can't produce anything in this system as
> applied.
>
> > > But bear something in mind -- okay, so there are some drunken Brits
> > > getting wildly drunk and dancing weird ritualistic football dances in
> > > in the streets; the bad behavior, though frequent, is however confined
> > > to a minority of visitors. That share is still a small share, and
> > > there are a great many more desirable tourists in town these days as
> > > well.
> >
> > True.
> >
> > >
> > > Most people I know mostly avoid the Old Town now -- but as a rather
> > > conservative friend of mine put it, it's still better than it was
> > > under the Soviets.
> >
> > that Revolution/Neatkarîbas muzejs and the other grey building round
> > the corner should be replaced by something that fits the style of
>
> It's not a Neatkarîbas muzejs but the Okupâcijas muzejs and it should
Much as I hate to, Henry, I agree with you.
/P
darsi...@comcast.net
> My argument with Vidas is his thesis that
> absolutely nothing can be done and one must
> just grin and bear it - nay, even profit from
> it. I say that if you get on that RR line the
> end-point is something akin to what we see
> in Thailand. I would imagine that even
> semi-rational people would want to get
> off the thundering train *way, way* before
> it reaches the end point.
Sorry Henry, but you still completely misunderstand the issue - in
addition now, my position and argument.
Your characterization seems to want to lead some to believe that this
cheap boozing of the Baltics is purely an import and as such can be
resolved by limiting the boozers from entering - you cited football
hooligan screening technology as a means to achieve that.
The boozers arent crossing the frontier booze in tow Henry. Theyre
buying it from local businesses upon their arrival. Theyre buying a
good number of these trips from companies headquartered in the Baltics
- run and owned by Balts. The article references as much.
If Baltic self image is so damn important - then maybe the Balts
themselves shouldnt be primary contributors to its tarnishing ?
Until you accept that Balts are part of the problem Henry - you'll
never reach the perspective required to address it.
Regulation and code enforcement is a novel concept, but it generally
falls away quickly with a couple well placed 100 litas notes. Solve
that problem first maybe.
Vidas
Henry Alminas
"Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176099494.6...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Regards,
/P
I have always been amused by the "conservationists" who
wish to preserve things "just as they are or, rather - were".
With respect to cities that is just plain absurd. Cities are
living things growing (sometimes, subsequent to a neighborly
visit - contracting) and changing to fill the changing needs
of its inhabitants. It is, after all, *they* (the inhabitants)
that the city is all about. A city without inhabitants is an area
of rubble. Yet all too often this change is hindered.
The squabbling about "replicas" I find equally absurd. Some
"replicas" are somehow deemed "good" while others are
"immoral" though no explanation is ever given why. With
respect to the structure in Vilnius aside from ego clashes
between assorted historians, "historians", archaeologists,
"archaeologists", architects and assorted do-gooders who
claim that the money could be spent on something else
it has been an unending dog-fight. We know that that
building was there and there is good information as to
how it looked - until the russkies blew it away. So why
the hell not build it? If nothing else it will send another
rocket up the russkie ass. That is worth it - ain't it?
It is "tawdry", I gather, though it is not specified why.
It is not "true" I guess. Wall, hell, folks just look at
the preserved old parts of cities in any of the European
lot. Just how "true" are those? I would maintain that
they are just facades. They have been, at one or another
time, thoroughly gutted to retrofit them to (ahem) the
changing needs of the population. Who, after all, would
want to either work or live in a "true" 17th, 18th or even
19th century building? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!
I say retain the facades - they are cute - though not all.
They used to put up some ugly buildings in the past
just as they do today. On the other hand do not lock
the cities into some straight jackets making life
more miserable for the inhabitants.
It is, I repeat, the inhabitants who make the city a
living and "going" concern.
Cheerful greetings from Henry the barbarian
who (in the main) doesn't even like cities.
Best - - Henry
Dmitry
Here is how easy and cheap it is http://www.stagabroad.com/riga/?page=activities
(Ryanair flights are usually between £50 and £80, and can be even
cheaper for those with flexibility).
"Riga is an ideal destination for a stag party, groups descend on the
city for it's stag reputation and cheap drinks. It's ideal for any
stag party weekend". Very sad statement.
Latvians are trying to make money in any way they can, as any other
nation does. Everything has its consequences and stag parties are not
the worst. Although personally I would prefer "stagless" Riga. It
has lots more to offer than cheap drinks. And in fact those drinks
are not that much cheaper in Vecriga (and they don't have £1/pint
student nights).
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
> "Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
As I said, I'm not advocating freezing the town in time. But a
"straightjacket" is what we have, actually -- the _entire_ center of
Rīga, not just the Old Town but a vast area, is a UNESCO World
Heritage Site, because "the historic centre of Riga, while retaining
its medieval and later urban fabric relatively intact, is of
outstanding universal value by virtue of the quality and the quantity
of its Art Nouveau/Jugendstil architecture, which is unparalleled
anywhere in the world, and its 19th century architecture in wood."
Vilnius' Old Town (as distinct from the center, as in Rīga) is on that
list, too. What we do is strictly regulated, and proposals in Rīga
have previously threatened the status -- the status involves
developing a long-term strategy and it results in investment. It also
means the increased participation of residents in planning -- whether
the city actually listens to what the inhabitants want is another
matter. The key words in why Rīga is a UNESCO site are "relatively
intact" -- our wretched history led to that, a sort of silver lining.
Normally, urban wooden buildings disappear, for example -- it was the
lack of urban renewal and the fact the Rīga was relegated to backwater
status that preserved many of the features that are now unique.
As to your sniffing at professionals -- something you do with
regularity, whether regarding linguistics or international relations
-- I think it's typical American anti-intellectual posturing. We speak
to architects and biologists before doing even the minor things we do,
like landscaping part of our land or building a cheap little dacha. I
don't know what "works" in a garden, especially looking towards the
future. It's the same with anything -- I love beautiful paintings, but
I trust my wife to see a lot more in them than I do, because she's
trained to. She's not an art historian, though -- if I go to look at
Renaissance art accompanied by someone devoted to it, I learn a lot
more because they understand the symbolism. When I lived in New
Orleans, I heard jazz "for the first time" because I lived with a
professional musician -- the experience of listening was richer for
it. A lot's about taste, to be sure -- Vidas, for instance, despises
the Harold Washington Library, I love it. He has _grounds_ for his
feelings, though, which are his appreciation for the traditions of
Chicago architecture.
My musician friend had traveled very little, and when I took her to
Chicago she was deeply appreciative of having been born in New Orleans
because she found Chicago unutterably hideous. I don't -- I grew up
with a father who adored Frank Lloyd Wright and Mies van der Rohe and
Louis Sullivan so much that my first ambition was to become an
architect (that went away when I failed math). Chicago's Chicago -- as
a friend of mine said re the huge billboards, that's its aesthetic.
But historic preservation has often been resented in America, and many
remarkable structures are gone -- there's a wonderful book called
_Lost Chicago_; a look at what's disappeared, not a few of the gems
disappearing through greed and rape.
As John said, there's no reason to detest all replicas. But I look
upon most of them the way I look upon reproductions of paintings --
they ain't art. With Melngalvju nams, there's at least a reason --
there were original blueprints, extensive photos, and a prophecy that
it should be rebuilt. It came out looking like awful kitsch, as far as
I'm concerned, but so be it. More broadly, though, we ought to look at
the entire cityscape. Danes, who've been very helpful with many an
architectural effort like saving and restoring some of the wooden
buildings, have focused on the river -- a river city, Rīga practically
turns its back upon its main feature. So there's the New Three
Brothers project, named after a trio of Medieval houses, which would
build the first great public buildings Rīga has seen in a very long
time: the National Library, a modern art museum, and a new concert
hall --
One doesn't just consider buildings, façades, objects -- one thinks of
the whole. Consider Paris. It's freaking gorgeous, in my view, but
some of the worst mistakes that mar its beauty are based in exactly
the attitude you take, Henry -- Tour Montparnasse, for example. I
_don't_ mind the brutalist Centre Pompidou -- cities have to change,
like you say, and that worked out wonderfully.
If you have something as intact as Rīga, you have to weigh the changes
carefully. You should weigh them especially carefully in the political
and economic climate we are in -- corruption, short-term interests,
drastic real estate price increases.
This is a pretty conservative country where we are charmingly obsessed
with what we have -- large stones have names and lists, big trees are
numbered and sometimes named, and numerous people take pride in every
little corner of Rīga. It's especially interesting because this is the
way we make what's around us ours -- the historic buildings are
primarily German, but we've adopted them and care for them. People
like the late Bruno Jansons devoted much of their lives to the
environment -- in his case, the natural environment. You might not
like cities, but they're the environment, too -- in fact, they're
central to the environment for most people.
Unfortunately, people very often aren't given a choice -- as I've
mentioned before, about three-quarters of the residents of Rīga who
bothered to comment, asked to envision the city of the future, were
against shopping malls and hypermarkets. Their opinion mattered
little. Then we can go into some specifics -- a monstrosity like
Stockmann, the company promising to do all sorts of things but later
blatantly violating its agreements, ruining a part of central Rīga.
Look around in Latvia. The free zone around waters -- is that kept to?
The pedestrian -- does he or she matter? Is a parking garage
preferable to Triangula bastions?
Supplanting Paris as the most fabulous city I've been in is Istanbul
-- but that is despite its horrors; it has, especially in the last
century, done everything possible to destroy itself short of ripping
down the well-known rudiments of a remarkable architecture. This isn't
that sort of country, and as Turkey becomes more European it begins to
think -- Göreme, for example, now wears a "straightjacket," as you
might put it, also a UNESCO site, is now forced to consider history
and the environment in its development. Result -- less crap.
In my own adopted town, everything is going to pot -- I find it
perfectly understandable that poor people living in old houses need to
keep warm, and plastic is cheap. But it is a combination of factors
that makes everything so ugly -- poverty is the main one, but a total
lack of a sense of beauty is another. They put plastic flowers in the
plastic windows, next to the rubber duckies, and most of them would
probably be a lot happier in a _khrushchovka_ were it not for their
very real sense of the village -- the city as an overgrown village is
something Dvinsk never outgrew.
Sidelight -- my mother-in-law, not exactly a Russophile, to put it
mildly, finally went to see the Barclay to Tolly monument in Rīga. She
liked it -- so does another arch-nationalist friend of mine. The
monument is anathema to most ultras, but such is the respect of
educated people for what really matters; my mother-in-law, confronted
with the idea that Barclay did zero for Latvia, said but oh yes he did
-- he brought the Fortress to our fair city. Now, there's another side
to this coin, of course -- the Fortress wasn't "ours"... it was the
latest imported technology of the Russian Empire and integral to the
city we see today. But her respect for the architecture exceeds her
hatred for Russification, you see. In that sense, it's _her_
Fortress.
Geriausio,
/P
pup...@aol.com
> >news:1176099494.6...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > J. Anderson wrote:
> > >news:1176061405....@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > J. Anderson wrote:
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Since Mr. Aluminum mentions Thailand...
I was recently in Phuket and there's a world of difference in the
types of tourists that Thailand attracts. Not to mention there is a
world of difference between Phuket, Bankok and Angor Vat for example.
In Phuket there was no shortage of the "stag" type travelers. Nor a
shortage of places which cater to them. There was also a considerable
amount of tourists who were there for things other and businesses and
people who profited from them. I don't think you need an environment
in which one type is mutually excelusive of the other. There's a
middle ground.
I don't think the danger for Latvia is of becoming a must destination
for only one type of tourist. Tourism is tourism and we'll take what
we can get and often one type leads to the other. Phuket as a case in
point. However, I really don't like the idea of the Old Town becoming
a focal point for the "stag" crowd. The Old Town has a lot to offer
other travelers who more than likely would be driven away by the
rowdies. I think that's one area where they should be mutually
exclusive. Peteris already suggested no vehicles and a heavier police
presence, I'd add a open container law as well as maybe a 12am closing
time for all bars. The Old Town is a fairly small place and I am sure
the stags wouldn't mind moving a couple of blocks. As long as they can
stay lubricated at a resonable price and there's eye candy around
they'll be happy.
As to the Occupation Museum. I think its an attrocious travesty and an
offense to the eyes. That's the whole point. Don't change a thing and
leave it exactly where its at.
Andrejs
martin
Those "stag" types will one day grow up, get married, have kids, and
many will eventually return as family tourists.
As to the Occupation Museum, I entirely agree.
Regards,
Martin
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Open containers have been illegal for a while (even beer is
forbidden). As to a closing time -- I'm not sure that's a good idea.
Britain, which formerly had strict hours, has been moving in the
opposite direction; hundreds of pubs disgorging people into the
streets leads to increased binge drinking and problems in the streets.
Vysu lobu,
/P
J. Anderson
"Dmitry" <dmitrijs...@inbox.lv> wrote in message
news:1176328003.6...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> "Riga is an ideal destination for a stag party,
> groups descend on the city for it's stag reputation
> and cheap drinks. It's ideal for any stag party
> weekend". Very sad statement.
Sad indeed. The situation is all the more frustrating for someone who has
been busy for quite some time promoting the Baltics and especially the three
capitals as travel destinations for target groups that take an interest in
other values than the pound-per-pint value.
(See how Ryanair facilitates both the exodus of Latvia's youth and the
influx of mindless rowdies!)
But luckily the stag trash follows its own shifting fads. Tomorrow some
other places will be harassed. Let's hope that Riga's magic survives this
temporary trampling.
Regards,
John
Henry Alminas
news:1176413332.3...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...On Apr 12, 6:06
am,
"P eteris Cedri n (Peteris Cedrins)"> > "P??teris Cedri.. (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedr...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >news:1176099494.6...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > J. Anderson wrote:
> > > "Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedr...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > > message
> > >news:1176061405....@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
<<huge snip>>
Andrejs
*******************
Waal, halooo thar!
It has been years, or so it seems, since this forum
was graced by your presence. I trust that you
have been well.
I note that you still have problems writing Lithuanian
names. Don't feel bad - a lot of people are in that
situation - yet, I have faith in you. If you truly
persevere I am certain that you will ultimately get it.
As to Thailand - I think that you miss the point of
my original missive. A "reputation" is very easily
obtained and can only be erased with substantial
difficulty. Thus it is far more efficient to prevent
a reputation from forming rather than spending
twenty years (while using more draconian methods)
in erasing it. Nor, in fact, am I concentrating on Riga
- it was but symbolic of the problems faced by the
Baltics as a whole.
Best - - Henry
pup...@aol.com
> Waal, halooo thar!
>
> It has been years, or so it seems, since this forum
> was graced by your presence. I trust that you
> have been well.
The passage of time leaves me relatively unscathed. The usual wear and
tear. All we need is Tonto and it would be like old home week.
> I note that you still have problems writing Lithuanian
> names. Don't feel bad - a lot of people are in that
> situation - yet, I have faith in you. If you truly
> persevere I am certain that you will ultimately get it.
Alas, tis true. And not confined to Lithuanian or names only. Please
accept my deepest appologies, Mr. Aluminumas. In my defense I offer
this from Andrew Jackson: It's a damn poor mind that can think of only
one way to spell a word.
> As to Thailand - I think that you miss the point of
> my original missive. A "reputation" is very easily
> obtained and can only be erased with substantial
> difficulty. Thus it is far more efficient to prevent
> a reputation from forming rather than spending
> twenty years (while using more draconian methods)
> in erasing it. Nor, in fact, am I concentrating on Riga
> - it was but symbolic of the problems faced by the
> Baltics as a whole.
I often miss original points. However, not in this case. The symbolism
that seems to be eluding you is that Thailand evokes different things
in different people. If you mention Bangkok its one image. If you
mention Angkor Vat its another image. If you mention the Beach its yet
another. In Phuket, the only place I've been to in Thailand, these
three disparate images seem to co-exist happily. Thailand's
"reputation", the same would apply to the Baltics, is fairly varied.
Which reputation one chooses to focus on often tells as much about the
individual focusing as it does about the reputation itself.
The symbolic problems faced by the Baltics as a whole are as different
from each other as each individual setting. So are the solutions. Thus
far, to the best of my knowledge, Latvia leads in the race as the
Flesh and Booze must be experienced destination.
To get back to the "point", "stag" travel in itself cannot harm
Latvia, or the Baltics if you'd prefer, on its own. It would harm
Latvia, or the Baltics if you'd prefer, if its the only type of
tourist it attracts. The harm wouldn't come because of some moral
objection to the things the stags like to do, but simply because those
type of travelers are as trendy as they come. It was Prague yesterday,
Riga today, maybe Tashkent tomorrow. If you want a practical answer
then I can offer you this in the Latvian context. The biggest problem
I see is not in the type of traveler the Baltics attract, but in what
they do once that traveler is there. There doesn't seem to be a
cohesive program or approach other than to fleece them while you got
them. The World Hockey championship in Riga as a case in point.
Outrageous price hikes and poor infrastructure. Short term it probably
padded quite a few pockets, but long term it might have left more
tourists with the feeling of never again rather than wanting to come
back for another visit.
Andrejs
pup...@aol.com
<cedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am only suggesting enforcing the closing time in the Old Town. Its
been a while since I've lived it, but bar life doesn't really get
going until 10pm or so if I remember correctly. It might steer the bar
lifers to places other than Old Town if they know they only have 2
hours to load up. The tourists for whom Old Town would be a
destination in and of itself probably wouldn't care. They're in bed by
11pm. If they're insomniacs then a shot and a beer will be available
just a few blocks away.
And since I am playing urban planner anyway, moving the casinos
elsewhere might not be a bad idea either and it could provide an
economic boost to some other area. Didn't they try that? What came of
it?
Andrejs
Dmitry
> > offense to the eyes. That's the whole point. Don't change a thing and
> > leave it exactly where its at.
>
> > Andrejs
>
> Those "stag" types will one day grow up, get married, have kids, and
> many will eventually return as family tourists.
>
> As to the Occupation Museum, I entirely agree.
It could be refurbished and made in to "Revolution Bar" (so that the
original name is retained) and as long as beer is cheap British stag
goers will occupy it very quickly. Even if it is raining - rain is
not a problem for Brits, as long as beer is cheap.
I seem to be the only one who would love to see this building go and
likes "fake" Melngalvju nams. Melngalvju nams, together with another
new building it is facing, competes with strelnieki and revolucijas
box. These pairs are not compatible. I do like this project
http://www.j3b.gov.lv/ and hope it will go ahead.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
Dmitry
> "Dmitry" <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote in message
>
> news:1176328003.6...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > "Riga is an ideal destination for a stag party,
> > groups descend on the city for it's stag reputation
> > and cheap drinks. It's ideal for any stag party
> > weekend". Very sad statement.
>
> Sad indeed. The situation is all the more frustrating for someone who has
> been busy for quite some time promoting the Baltics and especially the three
> capitals as travel destinations for target groups that take an interest in
> other values than the pound-per-pint value.
>From my own observation, Latvia still attracts more of the tourists
you target than British stag lads.
>
> (See how Ryanair facilitates both the exodus of Latvia's youth and the
> influx of mindless rowdies!)
Ryanair is evil. It has built its evil empire within couple of
years. Have you ever come across Hahn airport?, it is totally devoted
to Ryanair.
>
> But luckily the stag trash follows its own shifting fads. Tomorrow some
> other places will be harassed. Let's hope that Riga's magic survives this
> temporary trampling.
Let's see what will happen when Bulgaria joins EU.
J. Anderson
> I seem to be the only one who would love to see this building go and
> likes "fake" Melngalvju nams.
No, you're not -- neither in SCB nor IRL. Count me in.
Judging from old pictures, the original Melngalvju nams had become quite
melns itself. The replica looks so odd now simply because it's still
entirely without patina (i.e. soot). Let's wait a couple of hundred years,
and it will look natural again...
> Melngalvju nams, together with another
> new building it is facing, competes with strelnieki and revolucijas
> box. These pairs are not compatible.
Absolutely not. And it must be possible to rectify horrible architectural
mistakes. Why should we expect newer generations to suffer from such
monstrosities only because we want to make political statements?
In Stockholm they plan to tear down a building that is generally regarded as
the ugliest in town. It was built as late as in the 1970's and interestingly
enough it's the main building of the 'School of Architecture and the Built
Environment' at the Royal Institute of Technology. (Picture here:
http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/stockholm24/did_12338689.asp.)
Regards,
John
J. Anderson
> Have you ever come across Hahn airport?, it is totally devoted
> to Ryanair.
Have I? Unfortunately it's my Ryanair 'home field' in Germany. I used it as
recently as on Wednesday. Its growth from a deserted US air base into an
international traffic hub has been incredible. Alas, the original German
village nearby is only becoming ever drearier. Every time I've had to stay
there over night I've been singing (with J. Cash) 'Lautershausen, I hate
every inch of you...'
vello
> "Dmitry" <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote in message
Well, but "cheepo's" have opened window to travel for young and not so
rich folks. 10-15 years ago airports were full of well-dressed folks
with "diplomat" suitcases - today backpackers are wandering there. By
me it is for sure positive thing. And their competition had bring
prices down (well, service level also :-))in other companies, too.
Sounds nice and democratic?
Dmitry
> "Dmitry" <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote in message
The village is full of small hotels with strange names. I stopped in
one called Bajazzo, it's a pub with some rooms up stairs. From my
window I observed another one called Lucky Saloon with blue flashing
lights. Which one did you stay in?
Do you know why this airport is called Frankfurt? The name did nearly
cost me a disaster trip (travel agency booked me car and hotel in
Frankfurt International). Thanks God I have friends in Germany who
warned me of a possible confusion.
Dmitry
Despite the fact that I once got stuck in Genova airport (the size of
Frankfurt-Hahn) for 13 hours when Ryanair has shown itself as
absolutely incapable to deal with customers in such situation, I am
still using it.
6 years ago flight from England to Riga was approaching £300. Now one
can get there and back for £50. Of course it is nice. It is positive
for many reasons, Latvians working here can visit back home several
times a year without compromising their tight budget too much is one
of them.
Dmitry
> > likes "fake" Melngalvju nams.
>
> No, you're not -- neither in SCB nor IRL. Count me in.
Thank you, it is good not be alone in appreciation of beauty in old
fashioned way.
>
> Judging from old pictures, the original Melngalvju nams had become quite
> melns itself. The replica looks so odd now simply because it's still
> entirely without patina (i.e. soot). Let's wait a couple of hundred years,
> and it will look natural again...
This could be achieved much quicker if Revolution/Occupation box was
transferred in to a small version of occupation type factory that is
able to pollute M-nams in several months.
>
> > Melngalvju nams, together with another
> > new building it is facing, competes with strelnieki and revolucijas
> > box. These pairs are not compatible.
>
> Absolutely not. And it must be possible to rectify horrible architectural
> mistakes. Why should we expect newer generations to suffer from such
> monstrosities only because we want to make political statements?
But then you can be accused in ‘whitewashing history’……Well, those who
built fabulous dachas in Jūrmala didn’t include any Soviet features in
their gardens.
>
> In Stockholm they plan to tear down a building that is generally regarded as
> the ugliest in town. It was built as late as in the 1970's and interestingly
> enough it's the main building of the 'School of Architecture and the Built
> Environment' at the Royal Institute of Technology. (Picture here:http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/stockholm24/did_12338689.asp.)
>
It gave me a text “Välkommen till Svenska Dagbladet. Tyvärr fungerar
inte den länk du försökt använda. Om du skrev in länken själv,
kontrollera stavningen och försök igen.”
, but no picture.
> Regards,
> John
J. Anderson
>> In Stockholm they plan to tear down a building that is generally regarded
>> as
>> the ugliest in town. It was built as late as in the 1970's and
>> interestingly
>> enough it's the main building of the 'School of Architecture and the
>> Built
> > Environment' at the Royal Institute of Technology. (Picture here:
> > http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/stockholm24/did_12338689.asp.)
> It gave me a text "Välkommen till Svenska Dagbladet. Tyvärr fungerar
> inte den länk du försökt använda. Om du skrev in länken själv,
> kontrollera stavningen och försök igen.", but no picture.
Hmm, strange. It works when I click on it. Try again:
http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/stockholm24/did_12338689.asp
There's another picture here:
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1298&a=537343&previousRenderType=6
(to enlarge the picture, click on the text line beneath it).
Dmitry
> "Dmitry" <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote in message
> (to enlarge the picture, click on the text line beneath it).
I've got it now. It does look horrible, even worse than Revolution
box.
vello
>
It's the constant problem for architects - you must build not just for
today but for tomorrow. Design clothing ends up in a months, car
designs in years. But houses will stand even when estetical
understandings had changed not one time. So mostly you must be
conservative if you don't want to be praised as "fantastic" in day
your building will be opened - and called "idiotic" for the rest of
history, starting from year five from opening. In sixties-seventies,
"open city planning" was a hit anyone was happy with - but as a result
we got most inhuman living areas. Pompidou center in Paris or Defence
are clear shows of that. Last guy who really creates timeproof style
of architecture was Imhotep, creator of pyramide :-)
A good architecture is like nature - born, not created. Think about
city places in Europe people like to walk in - they are 98% medieval
city centers with tiny houses and two meter wide streets, areas built
with no "general plan".
Any "general plan" means you put some one style key on any building -
but this way you get a boring city. Who wants to walk ten minutes to
pass one hughe building - just to realize next one is as big and
basically in the same style.
Swedes do the right thing, sure, but it would be too expencive to
change architecture in way we change design clothing - one dress down,
other on.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
What, what, what? I brought up Centre Pompidou on purpose -- it's
_inhuman_? It's one of the most human places in Paris! A place people
_love_ to walk in!
/P
vello
childhood dream when it was built. With Defence, with square miles of
glass by Mies van der Rohe, with Le Corbusier's stylistic open
neighbourhoods they represent the future material face of human
civilization. More, living in SU, it was clear sign for me about
esthetical superiority of free society. But for today? Where is pride
what creates Atomium in Brussels? There are writers (painters,
componists) top popular in their lifetime - and there are rare guys
staying on top forever. Imhotep was one of them, Rodgers and Piano
surely not. Well, they put himself into history of architecture as
autors of that building, but if Imhotep's idea is evergreen (think
Louvre (and think Las Vegas :-)) then hardly someone would think to
build something like Pompidou Center today. It was built into
contemporary world proud of techno civilization with no idea about
environmental dangers what raping the Earth will bring.
But OK with Pompidou, ONE this is nice - and enough. I dislike more
Bauhaus ideas about hughe block buildings and "open" neighbourhood
planning. Their work is excellent if to look on blueprint or from
plane window - but they are terrible to live in with wind and long
walking distances to anything. More, human ang houses must live in
harmony. In Bauhaus architecture houses are so big that humans feel
himself like ants in such environment.
Good show for such thinking one finds in Tallinn. Highly honored
Õismäe district is beautiful from plane - a huge double circle with
artifical lake as center point. But WALKING in Õismäe means being
between two colossal endless concrete walls - terrible.
J. Anderson
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> wrote in message
news:1176723617.3...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> I dislike more Bauhaus ideas about hughe block buildings
> and "open" neighbourhood planning. Their work is excellent
> if to look on blueprint or from plane window - but they are
> terrible to live in with wind and long walking distances to
> anything. More, human ang houses must live in harmony.
> In Bauhaus architecture houses are so big that humans feel
> himself like ants in such environment.
I don't think you are being fair now, Vello, linking Bauhaus with
large-scale housing projects such as Õismäe. Bauhaus was more about form and
function than about scale. The pyramids with their geometrical simplicity
and their lack of 'unnecessary' ornamentation actually were a kind of early
Bauhaus! (And think about *their* scale!)
AFAIK, Bauhaus didn't have a distinct city-planning programme of its own.
Rather I would connect the 'large-scale mania' with Nazi and Commie
city-planning. But it also seems to be a typical result whenever an
architect is given free hands to work with large spaces. Both Eliel Saarinen
and Alvar Aalto have produced city-plans for Helsinki, and in both cases the
result would have been disastrously in-human if the plan had ever been
implemented. But remember that Saarinen and Aalto represented totally
different schools of architecture: crudely you could describe Saarinen as
Jugend and Aalto as Bauhaus.
Like you said before: it's probably the *lack* of planning that has given us
intimate and human milieux such as the 'Hanseatic' ones.
Regards,
John
vello
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
>
> news:1176723617.3...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I dislike more Bauhaus ideas about hughe block buildings
> > and "open" neighbourhood planning. Their work is excellent
> > if to look on blueprint or from plane window - but they are
> > terrible to live in with wind and long walking distances to
> > anything. More, human ang houses must live in harmony.
> > In Bauhaus architecture houses are so big that humans feel
> > himself like ants in such environment.
>
> I don't think you are being fair now, Vello, linking Bauhaus with
> large-scale housing projects such as Õismäe. Bauhaus was more about form and
> function than about scale. The pyramids with their geometrical simplicity
> and their lack of 'unnecessary' ornamentation actually were a kind of early
> Bauhaus! (And think about *their* scale!)
OK, I use Bauhaus as symbol for some way to play with space. sure
totalitarian followers get only the worst out of Bauhaus ideas. (But
we must remind Bauhaus WAS one piece of totalitarian thinking :-))
>
> AFAIK, Bauhaus didn't have a distinct city-planning programme of its own.
> Rather I would connect the 'large-scale mania' with Nazi and Commie
> city-planning. But it also seems to be a typical result whenever an
> architect is given free hands to work with large spaces. Both Eliel Saarinen
> and Alvar Aalto have produced city-plans for Helsinki, and in both cases the
> result would have been disastrously in-human if the plan had ever been
> implemented.
Well Saarinen made a plan for Tallinn also, I have nice big-scale
reprint folio of them. It is not so "largomaniac", more like centre of
Riga.
But remember that Saarinen and Aalto represented totally
> different schools of architecture: crudely you could describe Saarinen as
> Jugend and Aalto as Bauhaus.
>
> Like you said before: it's probably the *lack* of planning that has given us
> intimate and human milieux such as the 'Hanseatic' ones.
>
> Regards,
> John
Surely. It's fantastic work by "dead hand": people designing houses so
different from neighbour as they can - but due similar cultural
background and aesthetics they are all different but all share one
sophisticated cultural key also.
Vladimir Makarenko
"J. Anderson" wrote:
>
> "vello" <vell...@hot.ee> wrote in message
> news:1176723617.3...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I dislike more Bauhaus ideas about hughe block buildings
> > and "open" neighbourhood planning. Their work is excellent
> > if to look on blueprint or from plane window - but they are
> > terrible to live in with wind and long walking distances to
> > anything. More, human ang houses must live in harmony.
> > In Bauhaus architecture houses are so big that humans feel
> > himself like ants in such environment.
>
> I don't think you are being fair now, Vello, linking Bauhaus with
> large-scale housing projects such as Õismäe. Bauhaus was more about form and
> function than about scale. The pyramids with their geometrical simplicity
> and their lack of 'unnecessary' ornamentation actually were a kind of early
> Bauhaus! (And think about *their* scale!)
>
> AFAIK, Bauhaus didn't have a distinct city-planning programme of its own.
Hm, W. Gropius was one of the founding farthers of modern city planning.
Notice that I don't argue "pro" or "contra".
We cannot however escape city planning today - life dictate the
necessity, not some stupid or even evil geniuses.
Not every country has a luxury to have cities not exceeding only one or
two millions of city population.
VM.
J. Anderson
"Vladimir Makarenko" <maka...@popmail.med.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:4623F7B5...@popmail.med.nyu.edu...
> "J. Anderson" wrote:
>> AFAIK, Bauhaus didn't have a distinct
> city-planning programme of its own.
> Hm, W. Gropius was one of the founding
> farthers of modern city planning.
Sure, and probably every architect has some ideas regarding city-planning,
but I'm talking of Bauhaus as a movement. At least I didn't see any signs of
megalomaniacal urbanism (ŕ la Niemeyer) on display in the Bauhaus exhibition
in Dessau.
> We cannot however escape city planning today - life dictate the
> necessity, not some stupid or even evil geniuses.
Right. What I (and Vello, obviously) resent, however, is the planners'
tendency to forget that the urban environment should be built to live in --
not only to look good in architectural picture-books.
> Not every country has a luxury to have cities not exceeding only one or
> two millions of city population.
Of course they do. There are smaller cities in every country.
Regards,
John
Maris
<ander...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
>In Stockholm they plan to tear down a building that is generally regarded as
>the ugliest in town. It was built as late as in the 1970's and interestingly
>enough it's the main building of the 'School of Architecture and the Built
>Environment' at the Royal Institute of Technology. (Picture here:
>http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/stockholm24/did_12338689.asp.)
>
>Regards,
>John
>
Clearly they have very high architectural standards in Stockholm. The
building doesn't strike me as being particularly ugly. Maybe the
'brutalism' lobby isn't currently in vogue. Using the same criteria,
I'm sure none of Erno Goldfinger's buildings would survive in London.
On the other hand, the Smithsons' Robin Hood Gardens ( a 'project' in
US parlance) never lived up to its designers' hopes and badly
tranished their reputation. Home to mainly Bengalis now.
M
Maris
<halm...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Does the price exacted by this
>industry from the host nations
>exceed the benefits (mainly for
>the more dubious element of the
> afflicted societies)?
>
>Some time ago Vidas and I got into
>it a bit on this subject. I would like
>to hear some other opinions on this
>problem
>
>Der Spiegel has an article about this.
>The garbage, it seems, just flows to
>the areas of least resistance. I, as
>you may recall, proposed that this
>resistance be increased.
>
>Let me hear you on this subject.
>
>
>In: Der Spiegel (in English):
>By: Erich Wiedemann
>
>BUDGET BOOZING IN THE BALTIC
>British Stag Parties Head East in Search of Cheap Beer
>
rest cut
Well, the level of debate on this subject has certainly reached highs
not seen on SCB for some time! I am with Peteris, too, about
Okupaacijas Muzejs. if anything else had been housed in it, it may
have been a candidate for removal but it's current status justifies
its existence. No other advert of the OM is needed.
Melngalvju Nams is a different question, of course. I think there is a
place for restorations like this mainly because of its symbolism,
which is what led to it being reconstructed. It does nicely plug that
hole on the side of the laukums though. Now the pastiche on the other
side of the square (Rigas Pilseetas Dome?) really doesn't do it for me
and neither does any other pastiche. As for RTU (Rigas Tehniskaa
Universitaate) - why is it still there? I am afraid I am generally
prejudiced against those awful orangy-red oversized bricks that used
to be produced at can't remember the name of the place, that spall
when water enters the cracks and freezes.
The question of how much tarting up should be done is a contentious
one, though. May look good on chocolate box covers (or jigsaws) but
that's all. My own area here in London (Hackney Wick, soon to be home
to the Olympic park) is also in danger of changing from a desolate
industrial landscape (well, some of it anyway) to a nice ordered
environment with nothing out of place. Ugh. A nice feature about it in
the weekend FT. One of the many resident artists (living in the
numerous warehouses) said that it needed investment but they didn't
want it to become 'all flats and Starbucks'.
Quite agree about Riga turning its back on the river Daugava, too. It
really doesn't help having a fast road separating the river from the
old town.
Well that's enough meandering.
M
Maris
<ander...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
>Sure, and probably every architect has some ideas regarding city-planning,
>but I'm talking of Bauhaus as a movement. At least I didn't see any signs of
>megalomaniacal urbanism (à la Niemeyer) on display in the Bauhaus exhibition
>in Dessau.
>
Do they have a Bauhaus exhibition in the Bauhaus building themselves
now? Went to the Berlin one 30 years ago or more before they moved it
to the Mies van der Rohe building. I think I went to see it there
again too but the memory is not what it used to be. I've been to the
Bauhaus at Dessau several times but only went for a drink in the
cocktail bar in the basement! First time I went there was still a
Soviet garrison next door and still have a photo of Soviet conscripts
leaning on a gate.
M
J. Anderson
"Maris" <lat...@london.com> wrote in message
news:tbf923pgk5hkfcfrl...@4ax.com...
> Quite agree about Riga turning its back on the river Daugava, too. It
> really doesn't help having a fast road separating the river from the
> old town.
Can't imagine any other solution. A tunnel? The situation is the same in
Danupils, where the old town is separated from the waterfront by roads and
tram tracks.
Dmitry
> not seen on SCB for some time! I am with Peteris, too, about
> Okupaacijas Muzejs. if anything else had been housed in it, it may
> have been a candidate for removal but it's current status justifies
> its existence. No other advert of the OM is needed.
> Melngalvju Nams is a different question, of course. I think there is a
> place for restorations like this mainly because of its symbolism,
> which is what led to it being reconstructed. It does nicely plug that
> hole on the side of the laukums though. Now the pastiche on the other
> side of the square (Rigas Pilseetas Dome?) really doesn't do it for me
> and neither does any other pastiche. As for RTU (Rigas Tehniskaa
> Universitaate) - why is it still there?
It fits quite well with muzejs and strelnieki.
> I am afraid I am generally
> prejudiced against those awful orangy-red oversized bricks that used
> to be produced at can't remember the name of the place, that spall
> when water enters the cracks and freezes.
> The question of how much tarting up should be done is a contentious
> one, though. May look good on chocolate box covers (or jigsaws) but
> that's all. My own area here in London (Hackney Wick, soon to be home
> to the Olympic park) is also in danger of changing from a desolate
> industrial landscape (well, some of it anyway) to a nice ordered
> environment with nothing out of place. Ugh. A nice feature about it in
> the weekend FT. One of the many resident artists (living in the
> numerous warehouses) said that it needed investment but they didn't
> want it to become 'all flats and Starbucks'.
> Quite agree about Riga turning its back on the river Daugava, too. It
> really doesn't help having a fast road separating the river from the
> old town.
> Well that's enough meandering.
>
> M-