immigrants in spain starting to get restless
ARKADYA
Killing sparks anti-immigrant clash in Spain
By Tiziana Barghini
MADRID, Feb 6 (Reuters) - Demonstrators rampaged through a southern Spanish
town on Sunday shouting anti-immigrant slogans after a woman was stabbed to
death and the killing blamed on a Moroccan, local authorities said.
A Spanish government representative to the region was punched and kicked by a
mob of enraged Spaniards when he tried to calm the situation, and had to take
refuge in a local church.
El Ejido, a farming town 40 km (25 miles) west of the city of Almeria, was
gripped throughout the day by racial tension as rival groups of Spanish
residents and North African immigrants clashed repeatedly, officials said.
It followed the fatal stabbing of a 26-year-old Spanish woman in a marketplace
on Saturday morning. A 21-year-old Moroccan man, reported to be mentally
unstable, was arrested as the main suspect.
Violence broke out in El Ejido -- a town of 45,000 people inland from popular
Costa del Sol beach resorts -- when hundreds of Spanish residents marched
through the streets on Saturday night, shouting ``Moors, go home!.''
They wrecked several shops and overturned cars belonging to people of North
African origin and set up barricades of burning tyres, officials said.
A counter-demonstration by about 300 Moroccans on Sunday drew another angry
reaction from Spanish residents and police in riot gear had to intervene to
keep the groups apart.
Several people were slightly injured as opposing protesters pelted each other
with rocks and bottles. At least two cars owned by Moroccans were overturned
and set ablaze.
``XENOPHOBIC'' REACTION CONDEMNED
``This kind of xenophobic response is wrong,'' Interior Minister Jaime Mayor
Oreja told reporters in the Mediterranean port of Valencia. ``There is no
justification for acts of revenge.''
The confrontations were the latest in a series of anti-immigrant incidents in
Spain, where a growing influx of North Africans has caused racial tensions in
some areas.
Unease between native Spaniards and Moroccan immigrants had grown in El Ejido
since the fatal stabbings of two residents two weeks ago. A Moroccan suspect
was arrested.
But it was the killing of Encarnacion Lopez, the mother of a small child, that
sparked this outbreak of attacks against North Africans.
``Throughout the day there have been confrontations between the groups, both
North African and Spanish, face to face with a violent attitude,'' said Jose
Torre Hurtado, a regional government official. ``The police cordon put up
between them has avoided (violence).''
Leaders of the North African community deplored the killing and urged Spanish
residents not to blame all immigrants for the crimes of a few.
Tension remained high after the woman's funeral on Sunday which was attended by
several thousand mourners.
Sic Semper Tyrannis, The tree of freedom has to be watered with the
blood of tyrants.
alfadr9
these problems. If western countries do not act right with the immigrants
from third world countries, they should immigrate in China, Rwanda, Iran...
"Zordar01" <zord...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
20000216204146...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
> its about time we woke up
steg
"Miguel García Fillion" schreef:
> Preventing people from moving freely from one country to another is
> primitive and stupid. The world is so small now and the rich countries
> (Europe and North America) are sucking the blood out of the rest of the
> world. This must end.
hoora!
>
>
> All the borders, all the frontiers between countries will fall one day,
> sooner or later. I will be the first to burn the flags of my own countries,
> Spain and Canada (I'm half Spaniard half French Canadian), which are as full
> of blood and shit as the flags of all the other countries in the world. I
> will be the first to welcome immigrants from around the world, seeking
> freedom and a better way of life.
you're an oldfashioned idealist, I like that? at the same time you have such a
bigoted opinion about the English language and America? what's eating you
miquel?
> They must be treated fairly, and we must
> pay them a fair wage.
this kind of lanfuage suggests strongly that "they" must be treated/paid by "us"
and thus you show a strong sentiment of national identity, in contrast with your
idealism above. How come?
> El Ejido is a shame. I hope it will never happen again
> in Spain.
let's hope so.
steg
Miguel García Fillion
>
>you're an oldfashioned idealist, I like that? at the same time you have
such a
>bigoted opinion about the English language and America? what's eating you
>miquel?
I cannot accept that the USA have erected the "Wall of Misery", and claim
after that that they are a great democratic country. This is not true. Jörg
Haider just says that he wants to do what the Republicans are already doing
in the USA.
The "Wall of Misery" goes along the border of USA-Mexico, along the Rio
Grande. The Americans suck the blood out of the latin-american countries.
They employ Mexicans illegal workers for 5 bucks a day in the factories
along the border. Yes, 5 dollars a day!!! That's not morally acceptable.
They are just creating desperados. After that, they will complain that the
crime is high along the border.
Europeans do a little bit the same along the strait of Gibraltar. Gibraltar
is a "Wall of Misery". The Arabs that cross the strait of Gibraltar come to
Spain & France for small salaries and no social benefits at all.
More recently, Austria want to do the same with the communists. Another
"Wall of Misery", another "Berlin's Wall"!!!! Yeah! that's exactly what we
need to civilize ourselves!
Underpaying your workers is the same, in my point of view, as buying
slaves!!
It is true that English is the most easy language to learn. It has less
irregularities and conjugations than other languages, like French or
Spanish. The only difficulty when you learn English is to understand the
British and the Americans (even more difficult)!
Regards,
Miguel García Fillion (yCroutix)
Glock the Wisi
don`t they just stay in their own countries, where everything is SO fine...
Why should north America and Europe accept every Papoos? If you fill a rich
country with papoos, won`t you get an other papoo country?
"Miguel García Fillion" <neur...@worldnet.att.net> a écrit dans le message
news: r7vt4.17623$tk7.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Andreas Thomsen
>
> If immigrants from Third world are ill treated by occidental countries, why
> don`t they just stay in their own countries, where everything is SO fine...
> Why should north America and Europe accept every Papoos? If you fill a rich
> country with papoos, won`t you get an other papoo country?
>
Hey, now you have become an adherent of Mr. Haider's political agenda ?
I thought you're so anti-Austrian, and now you sound like a member of
FPOe...
Maybe you start running a French FPOe representation ?
Andreas
Miguel García Fillion
>
>Maybe you start running a French FPOe representation ?
>
>Andreas
>
French Canadian.
Miguel García Fillion (yCroutix)
Glock the Wisi
FPO can`t take the power in France. And certaintly not where i come from.
You are from Bonn? I have been to Germany. I intend to visit Austria too.
"Andreas Thomsen" <tho...@geo.uni-bonn.de> a écrit dans le message news:
38B6B988...@geo.uni-bonn.de...
> Glock the Wisi wrote:
> >
> > If immigrants from Third world are ill treated by occidental countries,
why
> > don`t they just stay in their own countries, where everything is SO
fine...
> > Why should north America and Europe accept every Papoos? If you fill a
rich
> > country with papoos, won`t you get an other papoo country?
> >
>
> Hey, now you have become an adherent of Mr. Haider's political agenda ?
> I thought you're so anti-Austrian, and now you sound like a member of
> FPOe...
>
> Maybe you start running a French FPOe representation ?
>
> Andreas
>
>
Glock the Wisi
don`t you go to Africa? You could live with Migu y bamboo and his 3 phd
certificates, an other nice specimen of these news groups. I receive many
answers like yours. But i never receive a post explaining how i am wrong. I
read only emotive politically correct answers full of insults. Caramba.
Remember El Ejido?
If you like Third world peoples so much, you must not be very prout of
Spain...
"Salvador Monsalud" <juzm...@worldonline.es> a écrit dans le message news:
8996fe$h1$3...@diana.bcn.ttd.net...
> Que pasa a Glotegüisi? Como te vuelva a ver por soc.culture.spain
vomitando
> tu bazofia racista te voy a mandar a tomar por culo, anormal.
>
> Glock the Wisi <Gl...@duff.net> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> GKyt4.938$C36....@weber.videotron.net...
> > If immigrants from Third world are ill treated by occidental countries,
> why
> > don`t they just stay in their own countries, where everything is SO
> fine...
>
> Es un intercambio "cultural". Nosotros creamos una dictadura allí.
> Sobornamos al dictador para conseguir su madera, su petróleo, su aluminio,
> su cobre, su hierro, sus diamantes, su pesca, sus frutas, su algodón...
Todo
> ello a bajo precio. Cuando ya no queda nada allí, nos traemos a los negros
> para que nos fabriquen cosas con esas materias primas. Cuando ya las han
> hecho les damos una patada en el culo, nos sentamos a ver el partido de
> futbol por televisión con una cerveza en la mano y decimos "que buenos,
> cultos y civilizados somos y que sucios y groseros son estos asquerosos
> negros" mientras chasqueamos la lengua.
>
> > Why should north America and Europe accept every Papoos? If you fill a
> rich
> > country with papoos, won`t you get an other papoo country?
>
> De acuerdo: te mandamos a tí allí y nos traemos a unos cuantos negros
> raquíticos y subnormales. Ganamos con el cambio.
>
>
steg
"Miguel García Fillion" schreef:
> >
> >you're an oldfashioned idealist, I like that? at the same time you have
> such a
> >bigoted opinion about the English language and America? what's eating you
> >miquel?
>
> I cannot accept that the USA have erected the "Wall of Misery", and claim
> after that that they are a great democratic country. This is not true. Jörg
> Haider just says that he wants to do what the Republicans are already doing
> in the USA.
>
> The "Wall of Misery" goes along the border of USA-Mexico, along the Rio
> Grande. The Americans suck the blood out of the latin-american countries.
> They employ Mexicans illegal workers for 5 bucks a day in the factories
> along the border. Yes, 5 dollars a day!!! That's not morally acceptable.
but it's the action of factories/employers that act criminally by knowingly
hiring illegal immigrants (i.e. lawless, as are the immigrants themselves,
although for the immigrants it's understandable that they try and seize the
oppurtunities they see), not the American Government, who I believe spend most
of their time trying to prevent illegal entries. So if you speak of "Americans",
who do you really mean? Individual citizins, employers or the whole government?
>
> They are just creating desperados. After that, they will complain that the
> crime is high along the border.
Again, who are "they"?
>
>
> Europeans do a little bit the same along the strait of Gibraltar. Gibraltar
> is a "Wall of Misery". The Arabs that cross the strait of Gibraltar come to
> Spain & France for small salaries and no social benefits at all.
>
And Spanish employers also hire these illegals for probably similarly appalingly
low wages as do their American counterparts along the Mexican border. So
probably you also hate the Spanish people and the spanish gov't for "sucking the
blood" out of the north-african workers. Look at your own original qoute with
just a few alterations:
"The Spanish suck the blood out of the north-african countries.
They employ Marrocan illegal workers for ?pesetas a day in the factories
along the border. Yes, ?pesetas a day!!! That's not morally acceptable."
Gross generalizations, wouldn't you say?
> <snipped some>
>
> Regards,
>
> Miguel García Fillion (yCroutix)
>
>
ciao
steg
p.s. Miguel, there is an interesting book that you might want to read: "The
tortilla curtain" by the writer T. Coregghsan Boyle. It's a novel that depicts
the life of an illegal Mexican immigrant.
Miguel García Fillion
>
>but it's the action of factories/employers that act criminally by knowingly
>hiring illegal immigrants (i.e. lawless, as are the immigrants themselves,
>although for the immigrants it's understandable that they try and seize the
>oppurtunities they see), not the American Government, who I believe spend
most
>of their time trying to prevent illegal entries. So if you speak of
"Americans",
>who do you really mean? Individual citizins, employers or the whole
government?
>
That's true. But don't forget that underpaying your people is legally
accepted in the USA, and in Europe also. As soon as your workers are
foreigners, the laws to protect workers don't apply. If you can read french,
which I doubt, there is a great article on "Le Monde Diplomatique", "The
Diplomatic World" about the border USA-Mexico, and about the "maquiladoras",
factories owned by North Americans, japaneses and Europeans and that legally
pay their workers 5 bucks / day. It describes very well how the NAFTA was
not as good for Mexico as it was for the USA!
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/1999/12/HABEL/12772.html
The workers there are very poor and uneducated fellow, 40% are indigenous.
I would say individual citizen probably don't know about that. Individual
citizen are plebeians. They probably only read the news on cnn.com, or they
probably don't read at all, exept the scores of the last Giant's game. Just
like the nazis didn't know about the extermination camps.
>
>Again, who are "they"?
>
You won't like this: Capitalists!!!
>
>And Spanish employers also hire these illegals for probably similarly
appalingly
>low wages as do their American counterparts along the Mexican border. So
>probably you also hate the Spanish people and the spanish gov't for
"sucking the
>blood" out of the north-african workers. Look at your own original qoute
with
>just a few alterations:
Hey! Ho! I don't hate anybody! Did I say that? I just open my eyes & ears
and don't fall into mediocrity!!!
>"The Spanish suck the blood out of the north-african countries.
>They employ Marrocan illegal workers for ?pesetas a day in the factories
>along the border. Yes, ?pesetas a day!!! That's not morally acceptable."
>
That's true, also.
>
>ciao
>steg
>
>p.s. Miguel, there is an interesting book that you might want to read: "The
>tortilla curtain" by the writer T. Coregghsan Boyle. It's a novel that
depicts
>the life of an illegal Mexican immigrant.
>
I don't know that book, but I loved the "25th hour", a Roumanian book about
WWII and concentration camps, I don't remember the author, but it sounds
like "Constantin Georghiu", or something like that. A great humanist. This
book is a masterpiece.
There's also "The four horseman of Apocalyps", from Vicente Blasco Ibañez, a
well known Spanish writer. It's about WWI and the German invasion of France.
Great work!
I'll try to get my hands on "The tortilla curtain".
Miguel García Fillion
Glock the Wisi
everything is so fine. Why do they stay in those bad White countries? Can it
be because, after all, it is better than in their own countries?
"steg" <st...@nospam.nl> a écrit dans le message news:
38BA8222...@nospam.nl...
>
>
> "Miguel García Fillion" schreef:
>
> > >
> > >you're an oldfashioned idealist, I like that? at the same time you have
> > such a
> > >bigoted opinion about the English language and America? what's eating
you
> > >miquel?
> >
> > I cannot accept that the USA have erected the "Wall of Misery", and
claim
> > after that that they are a great democratic country. This is not true.
Jörg
> > Haider just says that he wants to do what the Republicans are already
doing
> > in the USA.
> >
> > The "Wall of Misery" goes along the border of USA-Mexico, along the Rio
> > Grande. The Americans suck the blood out of the latin-american
countries.
> > They employ Mexicans illegal workers for 5 bucks a day in the factories
> > along the border. Yes, 5 dollars a day!!! That's not morally acceptable.
>
> but it's the action of factories/employers that act criminally by
knowingly
> hiring illegal immigrants (i.e. lawless, as are the immigrants themselves,
> although for the immigrants it's understandable that they try and seize
the
> oppurtunities they see), not the American Government, who I believe spend
most
> of their time trying to prevent illegal entries. So if you speak of
"Americans",
> who do you really mean? Individual citizins, employers or the whole
government?
>
> >
> > They are just creating desperados. After that, they will complain that
the
> > crime is high along the border.
>
> Again, who are "they"?
>
> >
> >
> > Europeans do a little bit the same along the strait of Gibraltar.
Gibraltar
> > is a "Wall of Misery". The Arabs that cross the strait of Gibraltar come
to
> > Spain & France for small salaries and no social benefits at all.
> >
>
> And Spanish employers also hire these illegals for probably similarly
appalingly
> low wages as do their American counterparts along the Mexican border. So
> probably you also hate the Spanish people and the spanish gov't for
"sucking the
> blood" out of the north-african workers. Look at your own original qoute
with
> just a few alterations:
>
> "The Spanish suck the blood out of the north-african countries.
> They employ Marrocan illegal workers for ?pesetas a day in the factories
> along the border. Yes, ?pesetas a day!!! That's not morally acceptable."
>
> Gross generalizations, wouldn't you say?
>
> > <snipped some>
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Miguel García Fillion (yCroutix)
> >
> >
>
Salvador Monsalud
Glock the Wisi <Gl...@duff.net> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
ccmu4.622$v31....@weber.videotron.net...
> Dear Caudillo; i tell you the same thing: if you like Blaks so much, why
A mi no me gustan ni lo negros ni LOS blancos... solo me gustan LAS negras y
LAS blancas... y las rojas, azules, verdes...
Y LOS DERECHOS HUMANOS.
JILIPOYAS!
> don`t you go to Africa? You could live with Migu y bamboo and his 3 phd
No. Mejor te cambiamos a ti por un negro subnormal y cretino y saldremos
ganando con el cambio.
> certificates, an other nice specimen of these news groups. I receive many
Demasiadas pocas answers para las que te mereces.
"Darte seiscientos garrotazos fuera,
para lo que tu chola merecía,
poca palestra a la región vacía"
(Francisco Quevedo)
> answers like yours. But i never receive a post explaining how i am wrong.
I
Explicarte por qué estás equivocado? Tu lo que estás es idiota. No vuelvas a
mandar tus propaganda racista a soc.culture.spain, porque si no te voy a
contestar como te mereces.
> read only emotive politically correct answers full of insults. Caramba.
> Remember El Ejido?
> If you like Third world peoples so much,
Desde luego les prefiero antes que a tipos como tú.
Glock the Wisi
I have no lesson to receive from a Spaniard. Spain was on the Nazi side
during WW-II. If the Germans tried to eliminate one people, the
Conquistadors almost made the genocide of an entire continent. And now you
have El Ejido. Trying to use immigrants as toros in your corridas. As in the
roman games. Remember Guernica? Ask to the Basques. Read how nice the
Spanishs were in Holland and south Italy during the 1500`s.
Yo digo la verdad. Pero no quires leer eso. Espania no esta muy limpia.
"Salvador Monsalud" <juzm...@worldonline.es> a écrit dans le message news:
89eql9$na6$4...@diana.bcn.ttd.net...
Salvador Monsalud
> Those immigrants just have to return back in their beloved country where
> everything is so fine. Why do they stay in those bad White countries? Can
it
> be because, after all, it is better than in their own countries?
Vamos a ver Glock... y si los inmigrantes vienen de "arriba", de los paises
"blancos", es decir, de Rusia. Que hay que hacer? También los enviamos a
Africa?
Glock the Wisi
and Blacks. All the world knows that.
Spain is too poor to accept a lot of Slaves peoples, so return them in
Poland and Russia. But i think only Third world peoples would want to
immigrate at such a price in your poor country.
"Salvador Monsalud" <juzm...@worldonline.es> a écrit dans le message news:
89eqli$na6$7...@diana.bcn.ttd.net...
steg
"Miguel García Fillion" schreef:
> Hey, Stegito!
>
> >
> >but it's the action of factories/employers that act criminally by knowingly
> >hiring illegal immigrants (i.e. lawless, as are the immigrants themselves,
> >although for the immigrants it's understandable that they try and seize the
> >oppurtunities they see), not the American Government, who I believe spend
> most
> >of their time trying to prevent illegal entries. So if you speak of
> "Americans",
> >who do you really mean? Individual citizins, employers or the whole
> government?
> >
>
> That's true. But don't forget that underpaying your people is legally
> accepted in the USA, and in Europe also. As soon as your workers are
> foreigners,
in this case we're talking about *illegal* foreigners right?
> the laws to protect workers don't apply. If you can read french,
> which I doubt,
now that is very interesting. Why do you doubt that I read French?
> there is a great article on "Le Monde Diplomatique", "The
> Diplomatic World" about the border USA-Mexico, and about the "maquiladoras",
> factories owned by North Americans, japaneses and Europeans and that legally
if it's in the USA, that, by definition, is not legal (Imean paying 5 dollars
per hour).
>
> pay their workers 5 bucks / day. It describes very well how the NAFTA was
> not as good for Mexico as it was for the USA!
>
> http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/1999/12/HABEL/12772.html
>
> The workers there are very poor and uneducated fellow, 40% are indigenous.
>
> I would say individual citizen probably don't know about that. Individual
> citizen are plebeians.
Right, all people are stupid plebeians who don't know anything, you're gonna
enlighten them right?
> They probably only read the news on cnn.com, or they
> probably don't read at all, exept the scores of the last Giant's game. Just
> like the nazis didn't know about the extermination camps.
>
These sort of remarks are just so petty Miguel, you seem a reasonably
intelligent guy. Why do you keep repeating these rants?
>
> >
> >Again, who are "they"?
> >
>
> You won't like this: Capitalists!!!
>
And why won't I like that?
>
> >
> >And Spanish employers also hire these illegals for probably similarly
> appalingly
> >low wages as do their American counterparts along the Mexican border. So
> >probably you also hate the Spanish people and the spanish gov't for
> "sucking the
> >blood" out of the north-african workers. Look at your own original qoute
> with
> >just a few alterations:
>
> Hey! Ho! I don't hate anybody! Did I say that? I just open my eyes & ears
> and don't fall into mediocrity!!!
>
The 'quality' of your 'arguments' is *less* than mediocre dude.
>
> >"The Spanish suck the blood out of the north-african countries.
> >They employ Marrocan illegal workers for ?pesetas a day in the factories
> >along the border. Yes, ?pesetas a day!!! That's not morally acceptable."
> >
>
> That's true, also.
>
yeah, which only goes to show that overgeneralizations do not equal a balanced
opinion, let alone an argument.
>
> >
> >ciao
> >steg
> >
> >p.s. Miguel, there is an interesting book that you might want to read: "The
> >tortilla curtain" by the writer T. Coregghsan Boyle. It's a novel that
> depicts
> >the life of an illegal Mexican immigrant.
> >
>
> I don't know that book, but I loved the "25th hour", a Roumanian book about
> WWII and concentration camps, I don't remember the author, but it sounds
> like "Constantin Georghiu", or something like that. A great humanist. This
> book is a masterpiece.
>
> There's also "The four horseman of Apocalyps", from Vicente Blasco Ibañez, a
> well known Spanish writer. It's about WWI and the German invasion of France.
> Great work!
>
> I'll try to get my hands on "The tortilla curtain".
>
> Miguel García Fillion
I'll check out this Ibanez guy.
steg
steg
"Miguel García Fillion" schreef:
>
> That's true. But don't forget that underpaying your people is legally
> accepted in the USA, and in Europe also. As soon as your workers are
> foreigners, the laws to protect workers don't apply. If you can read french,
> which I doubt, there is a great article on "Le Monde Diplomatique", "The
> Diplomatic World" about the border USA-Mexico, and about the "maquiladoras",
> factories owned by North Americans, japaneses and Europeans and that legally
> pay their workers 5 bucks / day. It describes very well how the NAFTA was
> not as good for Mexico as it was for the USA!
>
> http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/1999/12/HABEL/12772.html
>
> The workers there are very poor and uneducated fellow, 40% are indigenous.
>
> I would say individual citizen probably don't know about that. Individual
> citizen are plebeians. They probably only read the news on cnn.com, or they
> probably don't read at all, exept the scores of the last Giant's game. Just
> like the nazis didn't know about the extermination camps.
Miguel, I've just read the Le Monde article you say you quote. Apparently, al
your previous postings, were you were yelling and ranting against 'americans',
were somewhat misleading. The "maquiladores" you mention are *in Mexico*, not as
you have suggested, in the USA. The le Monde article describes the exemplary
situation in the city of Tijuana, *in Mexico*. So the 5 bucks per day that you
mention are paid *in Mexico*. No wonder you didn't respond to my postings
stating that paying 5 dollars per day in the USA itself is against the law. I
wonder now if you yourself have misread the Le Monde article, or whether you
have simply tried to depict the situation in the way most favorable to your own
political agenda.
So let's get the facts here, that is, the facts from the Le Monde article:
Numerous American, Japanese, Korean factories (little lie by Miguel: European
are not mentioned in the article, contrary to your claim) have sprung up along
the Northern borders of Mexico since the early sixties. This development has
started since about 1965, with a 4,9% annual production growth between
1970-1975, 12% between 1975-1985 and a current growth per annum of about 11%. So
this is not "a wall of misery" created by NAFTA (a smaal overinterpretation by
Miguel) as you would have us believe, NAFTA was signed (correct me if I'm wrong)
in 1995 or so.
You claim: "workers get paid 5 dollars a day"
LeMonde: wages range from 300-450 francs per day (450 -675 pesos), in today's
exchange rates:
450 pesos = 48 U.S. dollars
675 pesos = 72 "
300 FF = 44,2 "
450 FF = 66,3 "
So did you just plain and simply lie to us Miguel?
Or did you simply not understand the Le Monde article?
Maybe when you can get your facts straight, then we can discuss the much more
interesting points raised in the same article, about how these types of trade
agreements create free market and trading zones, that come with a lot of local
misery and exploitation, while the real benefits simply leave the country.
steg
Miguel García Fillion
Actually, we have also tons of British & German immigrants. They
overpopulate Mallorca, and their presence is more than noticeable over all
Andalucía. They even got a political party: "Amigos Alemanes en España".
It's hard to walk now on the beautiful beaches of Mallorca without putting
your feet right into a German or Brit belly!
Miguel García Fillion (yCroutix)
Glock the Wisi wrote in message <8RIu4.683$6b.1...@wagner.videotron.net>...
Miguel García Fillion
>Miguel, I've just read the Le Monde article you say you quote. Apparently,
al
>your previous postings, were you were yelling and ranting against
'americans',
>were somewhat misleading. The "maquiladores" you mention are *in Mexico*,
not as
>you have suggested, in the USA. The le Monde article describes the
exemplary
>situation in the city of Tijuana, *in Mexico*. So the 5 bucks per day that
you
>mention are paid *in Mexico*. No wonder you didn't respond to my postings
>stating that paying 5 dollars per day in the USA itself is against the law.
I
>wonder now if you yourself have misread the Le Monde article, or whether
you
>have simply tried to depict the situation in the way most favorable to your
own
>political agenda.
Hello Steg!
Keep your pants on, buddy. I didn't answer you because I am not connected to
my computer 24 hours a day. I am not yelling and ranting against
"americans". I am just allergic to stupid guys like Tom Newton that shout on
European newsgroups: "Shit, I'm proud as hell to be American". Or like Glock
the Wisi that say: If the poor third world immigrants are not happy in our
highly civilized countries, they can stay home.
You're right. The "maquiladoras" are along the northern border of Mexico.
But, hey, that's exactly what I was telling you: This is a legally accepted
way for Northern American cies to underpay their workers. Well, with NAFTA,
the $$$ can circulate freely between rich countries, like USA and poor
countries like Mexico. Money can cross freely the border, but not workers.
That's exactly what I said. A "Berlin's Wall" on the rio Grande.
So, if you read the article, Uncle Sam is building his factories in Tijuana,
legally hiring cheap workers and paying them 300 FF (44 bucks) for a 10
hours working day. This is 4.4 buck / hour. 6 days a week. If the workers
complain or try to build a syndicate, Big Brother just goes to another
state. If it's not slavery, how do you call it? Futhermore, since Mexico is
a thirld world country and doesn't have the anti-pollution laws USA has,
well, Uncle Sam feels free to destroy & pollute the Mexican rivers and air.
Maybe you think it's fair? Big Brother at his best!!!
Yeah! I can imagine the relations between bosses & employees in one of those
all-american factories. Master-slave relations at his best!
Because of the high turnover of those poor employees, the salaries don't
augment, and that makes business even more profitable for Uncle Sam.
To my eyes, this is not a constructive democratic relation between two
countries, but just a master-slave relation between the most powerful
economy in the world and one sub-developed third world country. Who do you
think dictates the clauses of the NAFTA agreement? Mexico, maybe? I doubt
it, whit an Pinochet-like asshole like Carlos Salinas negociating with the
gringos!
>
>So let's get the facts here, that is, the facts from the Le Monde article:
>
>Numerous American, Japanese, Korean factories (little lie by Miguel:
European
>are not mentioned in the article, contrary to your claim) have sprung up
along
>the Northern borders of Mexico since the early sixties. This development
has
>started since about 1965, with a 4,9% annual production growth between
>1970-1975, 12% between 1975-1985 and a current growth per annum of about
11%. So
>this is not "a wall of misery" created by NAFTA (a smaal overinterpretation
by
>Miguel) as you would have us believe, NAFTA was signed (correct me if I'm
wrong)
>in 1995 or so.
>
The Wall of Misery was there well before 1995. It's there since El Alamo,
actually. As I told you before, the USA-Mexico relation is a Master-Slave
relationship, or a Conqueror-Conquered one.
>
>Maybe when you can get your facts straight, then we can discuss the much
more
>interesting points raised in the same article, about how these types of
trade
>agreements create free market and trading zones, that come with a lot of
local
>misery and exploitation, while the real benefits simply leave the country.
>
Steg, when there's slavery, I think there's nothing to discuss... What can a
slave be dreaming of? Freedom, what else? Mexicans are just waiting for
another Zapata that will free them from the tyranny of the Gringos.
Miguel García Fillion
>
>Right, all people are stupid plebeians who don't know anything, you're
gonna
>enlighten them right?
>
Not at all, buddy.
Who do you think I am? Adolf Hitler?
I am not seeking to enlight any plebeians. Plebeians will remain plebeians,
and I can do nothing about it. Feed them, give them something to do (like a
custom officer work on the USA-Mexico border), and they will be happy.
I never said that everybody is a stupid plebeian.
Regards,
Miguel García Fillion (yCroutix)
If you can read French as you said, what do you think about this one:
Il y aura toujours des gens plus intelligents que d'autres pour s'engraisser
sur le dos des faibles.
- Émile Zola
Glock the Wisi
Which means muchos pesos for Spain. If tourist would stop tomorrow, i guest
the spanish economy would drop at least 20%.
"Miguel García Fillion" <neur...@worldnet.att.net> a écrit dans le message
news: IAPu4.2700$Ns2.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Miguel García Fillion
insult Spaniards like you did with Austrians?
Do you have any reference that shows that Spain is highly dependant (20% of
its revenue) on its tourism and rich immigrants?
How do you explain that Spain is the fastest growing economy in Europe since
1986 (4.1% compared with 3.1% for other EU countries), and that it's the
fifth biggest economy of all the European countries (Austria included)?
I think that before launching affirmations in the air like a Goth, you
should bring some good references & articles to back your statements. If you
prove something rationally to me, I will respectfully incline myself,
because I am not a crazy bigoted bastard.
;o) If not, Sir, I will slap my Kawasaki Ninja ZX-11 motorcycle driving
gloves in your gothic face and challenge you to a duel!
Miguel García Fillion (yCroutix)
Glock the Wisi wrote in message ...
Glock the Wisi
The fastest growing economy, because it was the poorest. It is easy to have
high rate of growth when you were some decades behind the others EU
countries. In 1998, the spanish gross national pruduct/person was us$14 080.
But us$24 940 for France, us$25 850 for Germany, us$26 850 for Austria,
us$40 080 for Switzerland
La verga
"Miguel García Fillion" <neur...@worldnet.att.net> a écrit dans le message
news: 2MXu4.2237$aH.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Glock the Wisi
not stand it for sure if he knew that.
"Miguel García Fillion" <neur...@worldnet.att.net> a écrit dans le message
news: S3_u4.3388$Ns2.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Glock the Wisi wrote in message
> <2DYu4.2282$VM2....@weber.videotron.net>...
> >What else than tourists can we find in the Baleares and the Costa del
sol?
> >The fastest growing economy, because it was the poorest. It is easy to
have
> >high rate of growth when you were some decades behind the others EU
> >countries. In 1998, the spanish gross national pruduct/person was us$14
> 080.
> >But us$24 940 for France, us$25 850 for Germany, us$26 850 for Austria,
> >us$40 080 for Switzerland
> >La verga
> >
>
> Gosh, you're right!
>
> I just read those sources in "Le Monde Diplomatique"!!! You're not as
stupid
> as you look!!! You seem to have a couple of fully interconnected neurons
> under your gothic skull!! Anyways, I can take the credit for it because I
am
> the one who gave you the reference.
>
> But, what's a GNP? What does it mean? It is very interesting, Glock, take
a
> look at those numbers:
>
> Ouganda: $320
> Poland: $3,900
> Mexico: $3,970
> Hungary: $4,510
> Portugal: $10,600
> Spain: $14,080
> New Zealand: $14,700
> USA: $24,940
> France: $25,850
> Germany: $26,850
> Danemark: $33,260
> Switzerland: $40,080
>
> But, how come the USA is the biggest economy in the world? It would be
> Switzerland? Do those numbers signify that, for example, a Frenchman
> produces more than an Homer Simpson? Or is richer? For Spain, I can
> understand. That must be because of the siesta, man! That cuts an economy
in
> two! Imagine, we all go to the siesta from 12:00 to 3:00PM. NO WORK AT
ALL!
> Sleeping like new born babies!
>
> Does the 40k of Switzerland have something to do with some hidden nazi
gold?
>
> I hope it doesn't mean I'll have to immigrate to another country! Because
I
> love Spain! I love my siesta! I hope it's not a poor third world
country!!!!
> And I don't want to have to immigrate to Austria. You're scary, Glock!
>
> Miguel García Fillion (yCroutix)
>
>
>
Miguel García Fillion
Salvador Monsalud
> The German and Brits "immigrants" are in fact retired peoples or tourists.
> Which means muchos pesos for Spain. If tourist would stop tomorrow, i
guest
> the spanish economy would drop at least 20%.
20%, dices?
No será el 10%?
Si las importaciones españolas de productos británicos o
alemanes parasen mañana, quizás se compensaría la pérdida.
Salvador Monsalud
> What else than tourists can we find in the Baleares and the Costa del sol?
Que otra cosa habría en Kuwait si no hubiera petróleo. Que otra cosa en
Suiza si no hubiera Bancos,
Pues además del turismo puedes encontrar, lo mismo que en California,
agricultura de regadío.
Francia es más importante, como destino turístico, que España. Se puede
decir que si no fuera por el turismo no sería nada? Claro que no. Pero si no
fuera por el turismo tampoco sería todo lo que es.
> The fastest growing economy, because it was the poorest. It is easy to
have
> high rate of growth when you were some decades behind the others EU
Lo mismo que ocurre actualmente en EEUU, con un crecimiento de más del 6%,
no?
No se te ocurre ningún otro factor que pueda influir en el crecimiento
económico, tio listo?
> countries. In 1998, the spanish gross national pruduct/person was us$14
080.
> But us$24 940 for France, us$25 850 for Germany, us$26 850 for Austria,
> us$40 080 for Switzerland
Y si comparas el de Italia (a la que también se suele incluir entre los
"pobres" de Europa) y Gran Bretaña, en este aspecto, habrá que pensar que
Gran
Bretaña es un pais subdesarrollado?
Y si comparas la esperanza de vida de España con la de Alemania, habrá que
pensar que Alemania es un pais subdesarrollado?
Y si comparas la mortalidad por enfermedades cardíacas de España con la de
EEUU habrá que pensar que España tiene mejor calidad de vida que
la de EEUU?
Bueno... esto último si es cierto.
Un saludo, glotegüisi... cabezón.
steg
"Miguel García Fillion" schreef:
And exploitation and abuse of "les faibles" probably starts because "ces gens"
begin with looking around them and stating things like:
"I am not seeking to enlight any plebeians. Plebeians will remain plebeians,
and I can do nothing about it. Feed them, give them something to do (like a
custom officer work on the USA-Mexico border), and they will be happy."
You said it miguel.
steg
steg
"Miguel García Fillion" schreef:
Glock the Wisi is just another xenophobic racist. Tom's just trying to get
answers and seems to have a mind of his own. And hey, to be proud of your
country is just a cute remnant of old-fashioned style nationalism. Come
civilization (just kiddin' Tom!), it'll dissipate into more modest views. And
anyway, I don't think our friend Tom is a good example here. I haven't seen him
shouting this anywhere.
> You're right. The "maquiladoras" are along the northern border of Mexico.
> But, hey, that's exactly what I was telling you: This is a legally accepted
> way for Northern American cies to underpay their workers. Well, with NAFTA,
> the $$$ can circulate freely between rich countries, like USA and poor
> countries like Mexico. Money can cross freely the border, but not workers.
That's very true. That's why the WTO meeting in Seatlle blew up I guess. A
fundamental mistake is to think that opening up markets (no more cash flow
restrictions etc) is automatically good for people (persons, individuals). Tom!
If you're reading this, you said you work in finance, what's you view on this?
>
> That's exactly what I said. A "Berlin's Wall" on the rio Grande.
>
> So, if you read the article, Uncle Sam is building his factories in Tijuana,
> legally hiring cheap workers and paying them 300 FF (44 bucks) for a 10
> hours working day.
See below: 300 to 450 FF equals 44 to 66 U.S. dollars. That's probably more than
any wages these workers have ever been able to earn elsewhere in Mexico. So for
them it's good......
> This is 4.4 buck / hour. 6 days a week. If the workers
> complain or try to build a syndicate, Big Brother just goes to another
> state. If it's not slavery, how do you call it?
Well it's just a business deal. We hire you, we pay you, if you don't think it's
enough, go somewhere else. That's hardly unusual is it? In the USA trade unions
are completely uncomparable to what they are in Europe, in Mexico I don't know.
I have no doubt that the mexican workers are poorly, if at all, organized. And
like you I think they should be. But then again, it's not europe over there, you
can't just stick you rules and visions on the situation there and convict based
on what you have at home.
> Futhermore, since Mexico is
> a thirld world country and doesn't have the anti-pollution laws USA has,
> well, Uncle Sam feels free to destroy & pollute the Mexican rivers and air.
> Maybe you think it's fair? Big Brother at his best!!!
Again you have not carefully read my previous post: I told you that if and when
you get the facts straight, we may discuss those things. I never said 'it's
fair', hell we haven't even discussed it yet!
Let's always get the clear facts, not fiction. So I repeat:
You claimed: "workers get paid 5 dollars a day"
LeMonde: wages range from 300-450 francs per day (450 -675 pesos), in
today's
exchange rates:
450 pesos = 48 U.S. dollars
675 pesos = 72 "
300 FF = 44,2 "
450 FF = 66,3 "
So miguel, let's take the average here and say that a mexican workers income is
around 55 U.S. dollars per day = 5,5 U.S. dollars per hour. Do you know Miguel
that *in the United States* itself the legal minimum wage is 5,75 dollars (it
could be 6,25 I don't remember). so *in Mexico* this 5,5 U.S. dollar is probably
pretty well paid, the growth and 'explosion' of the border zone indicates that
at least the Mexican's laborours think it's a pretty good deal for them. If a
Mexican worker (as you say in what may be considered a third world country) is
able to earn a wage comparable to taht of factory workers in the USA than I
have no doubt that the mexican factory workers themselves will be more than
happy with their jobs. And further, working 10 hours a day, six days per week
may seem harsh or too much for you, but in most parts of the wolrd it's just a
normal day's work. It doesn't seem extreme to me.
And please answer my earlier question: why did you initially tell this NG "5
bucks per day"? Did you maybe misread 'pesetas' for 'pesos' in the original Le
Monde article? That, or deliberately inventing your own 'facts' is the only way
I can explain it?
>
> Yeah! I can imagine the relations between bosses & employees in one of those
> all-american factories. Master-slave relations at his best!
Well, it may not be paradise, but what matter's for the mexicans is the fact
that they have a job their that their own gov't had previously never been able
to provide.
>
> Because of the high turnover of those poor employees, the salaries don't
> augment, and that makes business even more profitable for Uncle Sam.
>
> To my eyes, this is not a constructive democratic relation between two
> countries, but just a master-slave relation between the most powerful
> economy in the world and one sub-developed third world country.
I have no doubt that this deal works out great for the large American and US
corporations, but we have also established that the great advantages for them
are not so much in very cheap labor (see the wages above which are probably good
for mexican standards), but rather in good tax- and other deals provided by the
mexican gov't. And cheaper electricity, water etc.
> Who do you
> think dictates the clauses of the NAFTA agreement? Mexico, maybe? I doubt
> it, whit an Pinochet-like asshole like Carlos Salinas negociating with the
> gringos!
Here you go again: ranting and yelling.
>
> The Wall of Misery was there well before 1995. It's there since El Alamo,
> actually. As I told you before, the USA-Mexico relation is a Master-Slave
> relationship, or a Conqueror-Conquered one.
>
You don't have a lot of confidence in the Mexican people do you? But than again
you'll probably say that they're just "plebeians". It's pretty arrogant of you
to call these mexican workers slaves.
>
> Steg, when there's slavery, I think there's nothing to discuss... What can a
> slave be dreaming of? Freedom, what else? Mexicans are just waiting for
> another Zapata that will free them from the tyranny of the Gringos.
Again, a mexican worker in one of the Tijuana factories no doubt does not have
an 'easy' life, but I think they earn a helluvalot more money there than
anywhere else in Mexico, and for *them* (not for Miguel or for Steg) that's what
counts. And if you live in a capitalist society like you, me , americans and
mexicans all do whether you like it or not, the first step towards freedom
is to get away from poverty through education and work. I agree that so far it's
mostly work. Maybe those workers there are themselves the Zapata's you're
looking for. The annual GDP growth rates in the area suggest some benifit for
Mexico as well.
steg
p.s. you still haven't answered my question as to why you assumed that I didn't
read French?
Miguel García Fillion
>And
>anyway, I don't think our friend Tom is a good example here. I haven't seen
him
>shouting this anywhere.
Scroll down just a few messages. It's under "Schwazennegger to the rescue".
But I guess our friend Tom was just kidding. Right, hey, Tommy boy? ;-)
If you're interested to know what Mexicans think of the NAFTA, there's a
very interesting site, in english:
http://www.igc.org/dgap/rmalclab.html
I agree that NAFTA is a progression for México, but it has a lot of negative
effects on the country also.
>In the USA trade unions
>are completely uncomparable to what they are in Europe.
That's true, as soon as we deal between Europeans. If you take the example
of Spain with its Arab immigrants, it's the old fashioned master-slave
business deal. As soon as it becomes a EU-outsider business relation, it
becomes a master-slave relation, as everywhere in the world. That's the
reason Austria is afraid of the easterns countries. Austria is happy with
its Tschusch, and want to keep them, just as southern americans wanted to
keep their black slaves back in 1868!
Austria is afraid to imagine some Tschush getting some political power in
this country, because things might change. That's the reason why a bastard
like Jörg Haider is getting many votes in this country.
BTW, you read french, take a look at this one:
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/1999/02/GERY/11620.html
It explains how Ukrainian, Russian and Albanian women are literally "sold"
to prostitute dealers for 8,000 Deuchmarks. Forced to prostitute themselves
in EU countries, most of them are too afraid to speak. A pimp can make
110,000 Euros / year exploiting one single prostitute. The prostitute
doesn't even get 10,000 Euros / year.
Well, Steg, I agree. Our world is slowly civilizing itself... But there's so
much more work to do... And when you see a Jörg Haider getting so much power
in one highly civilized European country like Austria... honestly... it's
frustrating, you have the impression to go back in 1936. I hope it will
never happen again.
>And please answer my earlier question: why did you initially tell this NG
"5
>bucks per day"? Did you maybe misread 'pesetas' for 'pesos' in the original
Le
>Monde article?
Probably. ;-)
But it's true that they hire illegal workers for 5 bucks a day. I have no
reference on this, just a poor secretary I met in Tamiahua, a very remote
village of México, 7 years ago. She was so candid, so wonderful, so
beautiful, so empty of hatred & greed that she became my wife!
>p.s. you still haven't answered my question as to why you assumed that I
didn't
>read French?
Well, I though you were american. And you know the joke, right?
How do you call a person who speaks three languages? A trilingual.
Two languages? A bilingual
One single language? An American!!!
Miguel García Fillion (yCroutix)
Mark Eva
> Hello Steggie!
> >anyway, I don't think our friend Tom is a good example here. I haven't seen
> him
> >shouting this anywhere.
> But I guess our friend Tom was just kidding. Right, hey, Tommy boy? ;-)
> If you're interested to know what Mexicans think of the NAFTA, there's a
> very interesting site, in english:
> http://www.igc.org/dgap/rmalclab.html
> I agree that NAFTA is a progression for México, but it has a lot of negative
> effects on the country also.
> That's true, as soon as we deal between Europeans. If you take the example
> of Spain with its Arab immigrants, it's the old fashioned master-slave
> business deal. As soon as it becomes a EU-outsider business relation, it
> becomes a master-slave relation, as everywhere in the world. That's the
> reason Austria is afraid of the easterns countries. Austria is happy with
> its Tschusch, and want to keep them, just as southern americans wanted to
> keep their black slaves back in 1868!
> Austria is afraid to imagine some Tschush getting some political power in
> this country, because things might change. That's the reason why a bastard
> like Jörg Haider is getting many votes in this country.
> BTW, you read french, take a look at this one:
> http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/1999/02/GERY/11620.html
> It explains how Ukrainian, Russian and Albanian women are literally "sold"
> to prostitute dealers for 8,000 Deuchmarks. Forced to prostitute themselves
> in EU countries, most of them are too afraid to speak. A pimp can make
> 110,000 Euros / year exploiting one single prostitute. The prostitute
> doesn't even get 10,000 Euros / year.
> Well, Steg, I agree. Our world is slowly civilizing itself... But there's so
> much more work to do... And when you see a Jörg Haider getting so much power
> in one highly civilized European country like Austria... honestly... it's
> frustrating, you have the impression to go back in 1936. I hope it will
> never happen again.
> "5
> >bucks per day"? Did you maybe misread 'pesetas' for 'pesos' in the original
> Le
> >Monde article?
> But it's true that they hire illegal workers for 5 bucks a day. I have no
> reference on this, just a poor secretary I met in Tamiahua, a very remote
> village of México, 7 years ago. She was so candid, so wonderful, so
> beautiful, so empty of hatred & greed that she became my wife!
> didn't
> >read French?
> How do you call a person who speaks three languages? A trilingual.
> Two languages? A bilingual
> One single language? An American!!!
> Miguel García Fillion (yCroutix)
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