why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
Beezel
.... a very old very useless question. I have never met a caucasian
that had naturally blue hair. I have never met a caucasian that had
eyes that "big" ether. I have never met a rabbit that walked on tue
feet or talked as bugs bunny has.
I have however met plenty of trolls, racists, and WB ass kissers
who have watched maybe one or tue japanese films and think they are
now qualified to make a comment or ask a question amongst adults.
Beezel
Tomoyuki Tanaka
> Re: Why do Japanese look up to Americans (or whites)?
> three reasons.
> 1. wanting to learn from the West starting in the Meiji period.
> 2. the 7-year occupation
> 3. Hollywood movies.
>
> i think this (internalization of racism) happens in any colony,
> not just Japan.
>
some more related comments in the following.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
a question i've been asked by Americans many times:
Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
three reasons:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) Japanese are brainwashed by racist American standards of beauty.
during and after the US-occupation following WW2, the Japanese
aesthetics sense was gravely affected. many Japanese people were
brainwashed by the same prejudiced standards of beauty that is
prevalent in the USA: "white people are beautiful; Asian and
black people are ugly."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) lack of anti-Japanese prejudice.
we Japanese see ourselves only as humans. we Japanese naturally
don't think of ourselves as ugly, short, yellow, buck-toothed,
slant-eyed, etc. ONLY racist Americans think this way, and draw
cartoon characters accordingly.
see the relevant section in "disparity in Asian/white
interracial dating FAQ". (i quote Malcolm X in that section.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(3) naive internationalism.
most Japanese people have no idea that they are a target of an
intense racial prejudice, as in the USA. they don't even really
know what "anti-Semitism" is. in fact, when I lived in California
"racism" was just a word, an abstract concept I learned in class
in connection with slavery and the civil rights movement. here
in Bloomington, Indiana I learned how real racism is.
so most Japanese people have a "naive internationalism", the
belief that we can be simply human beings, without specifying
the race, national origin, social status, etc.
most of Tezuka's work for children (Astroboy, ribon no kisi,
etc) are done in this spirit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
see also section (2.1) MYTH: Japanese (Asians) have slanted eyes
of "American misconceptions about Japan FAQ".
--------------------------------------------------------------------
re: "Tanaka-san"
please do not call me "Tanaka-san" in English speech or text.
white Americans (e.g. comedians, bigots, smart alecs) often use
the "-san" ending to make fun of the Japanese and Japanese Americans.
see http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370355372
--
;;; TANAKA Tomoyuki ("Mr. Tanaka" or "Tomoyuki")
;;; http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html
Zak Def-Hammer
that doesn't look like anybody. Saying that, in some comics and animations
such as "Den'ei Shoujo" the characters have large round eyes, but the
precise shape still makes them look Japanese. The idea is either
stereotyped, or making assumptions based on American Disney characters.
Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote in message <6ocmea$q2h$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
| <snip>
|
|Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
| eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
| why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
|<snip>
Rene Carlos
> > Re: Why do Japanese look up to Americans (or whites)?
[snip]
> (3) naive internationalism.
> most Japanese people have no idea that they are a target of an
> intense racial prejudice, as in the USA. they don't even really
> know what "anti-Semitism" is. in fact, when I lived in California
> "racism" was just a word, an abstract concept I learned in class
> in connection with slavery and the civil rights movement. here
> in Bloomington, Indiana I learned how real racism is.
> so most Japanese people have a "naive internationalism", the
> belief that we can be simply human beings, without specifying
> the race, national origin, social status, etc.
> most of Tezuka's work for children (Astroboy, ribon no kisi,
> etc) are done in this spirit.
Hmmm... While I've never been to Japan, what I've read
on the subject indicates (implicitly and explicitly)
that the Japanese think of themselves as a distinct
race, separate from the rest of the world, and a damn
fine race at that. (Of course, most people think of
themselves like that, i.e., the French.) Here's my
evidence:
1. No naturalization. Immigrants will always be just
that; I don't recall when they last were able to
become Japanese citizens, but I believe it's been a
long while. Third-generation Koreans who speak
fluent Japanese are still Korean nationals.
Hell, Okinawans, who were absorbed into the Empire
hundreds of years ago, are still not "Japanese" to
the Japanese. My professor, who lived in Japan for
a few years, could never tell an Okinawan just by
looking. But, she says, mainlanders can, and do.
2. Large anthropology and archaeology initiatives.
Some large proportion (which I can't recall at this
time, of course) of Japanese academia and graduate
students are in these fields, more than in most other
countries. This is, in the words of Scientific
American magazine, a grand endeavor to get scientific
and historical proof that the Japanese are a distinct
and untainted people, especially with respect to
China and Korea. A full account is in SciAm a few
months back, entitled, "Who are the Japanese?"
3. Language barriers. When accustomed foreigners
speak, many natives are surprised at their Japanese.
They believe their language is, of course, unique,
and beyond the ken of "gaijin." Yes, Japanese is a
difficult language, but is it that hard to believe
that anyone can study hard and practice?
A man from my high school, David Specter, is a minor
celebrity in Japan. He goes on talk shows, talking
about the US and being a foreigner, in perfect
vernacular, and they eat it up. There are a couple
of these gaijin doing the talk show circuit.
I'm not trying to start a flame war here. Many of
these things can be said about every country, and
certainly the US. But I just don't buy that anime
characters look the way they do because the studios
are just so dern wholesome.
I agree that there may be some beauty standards (see
the tongue-in-cheek documentary, "The Japanese
Version"), and that it may just be a stylistic thing
(does Stimpy look like any cat you've ever had?).
But, realistically, Japanese animation as an
industry is no more naive and altruistic than the
Disney execs PC-ing their features.
Talented? Yes. Naive? Get real.
--
Rene Carlos
necr...@merle.acns.nwu.edu Northwestern University
r.v.c...@larc.nasa.gov Langley Research Center
Charles Eicher
(Tomoyuki Tanaka) wrote:
> ..in fact, when I lived in California
> "racism" was just a word, an abstract concept I learned in class
> in connection with slavery and the civil rights movement.
The reason American schools teach concepts like racism is so that the
students can learn to AVOID it, rather than PROMOTE it, as you do,
tanaka-gyou.
For those unsuspecting people in rec.arts.animation and rec.arts.anime, I
give you a warning about Tanaka: he is a notorious net.kook and racist, and
is intent on spreading flamewars by crossposting between newsgroups (in
this case, anime related newsgroups and soc.culture.asian.american and
soc.culture.japan, where we've heard these lame arguments too many times).
Please don't feed the trolls.
----------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@inav.net
----------------
stanlee
>
> > Re: Why do Japanese look up to Americans (or whites)?
> > three reasons.
> > 1. wanting to learn from the West starting in the Meiji period.
> > 2. the 7-year occupation
> > 3. Hollywood movies.
> >
> > i think this (internalization of racism) happens in any colony,
> > not just Japan.
> >
>
> some more related comments in the following.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> a question i've been asked by Americans many times:
>
> Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
> eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
> why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
>
Well, here's an idea.
The person most credited for starting the modern age manga and anime
is Osamu Tezuka, the "god of manga."
He freely admitted that he was influenced by early Disney flics
(1940s or so) and Betty Boop cartoons.
So, like the characters in those flics, he used "big eyes"
for his own characters.
The anime and manga creators that followed Tezuka
(and who are influenced by him) also then used "big eyes."
So, this style just stuck around for generations after that.
Nevertheless, besides tradition, the "big eyes" also proves to be useful.
Especially in dramatic scenes, the "big eyes" can convey emotions,
if used properly.
Still, though quite prevalent, the "big eyes" style is not the only style.
As with any medium, the animation styles range from realistic to cartoony.
After all, this is animation.
It doesn't have the same constraints as live-action films,
so an animator can use whatever tool he/she deems necessary/useful
to get his/her ideas across.
Laters. =)
Stan
----------
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \____|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sd0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
/ \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
/___/\/\___\__| |__|___| \____|
walter lee
I seen them in japanese and dubbed in english...
this question comes up sooo often I would have to say
that part of this reply is canned..
so here is my canned 2cents.
Rene Carlos wrote:
> Tomoyuki Tanaka (ez07...@dilbert.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
>
> > > Re: Why do Japanese look up to Americans (or whites)?
Bigger eyes make it easier and faster to show expressions.So we draw animals
like dogs and cats with big eyes and
we draw humans with big eyes. animation requires lotsa of drawing
so you have to do alot of them very quickly. even the people
who are japanese in japanese cartoon have big eyes if they
are a main character who has to be drawn with alot of facial expressions.
making the european is a side issue. Drawing lots of
cartoon frames is the bigger issue for the animator - bigger
eyes make it easier to show emotions. You can use the
voice actor to also show emotions - but that quality
may get lost when the anime is dubbed. .
> [snip]
>
> > (3) naive internationalism.
>
> > most Japanese people have no idea that they are a target of an
> > intense racial prejudice, as in the USA. they don't even really
> > know what "anti-Semitism" is. in fact, when I lived in California
> > "racism" was just a word, an abstract concept I learned in class
> > in connection with slavery and the civil rights movement. here
> > in Bloomington, Indiana I learned how real racism is.
if japanese in japanpractice racism they might not be aware of it either! :-P
>
>
> > so most Japanese people have a "naive internationalism", the
> > belief that we can be simply human beings, without specifying
> > the race, national origin, social status, etc.
>
> > most of Tezuka's work for children (Astroboy, ribon no kisi,
> > etc) are done in this spirit.
>
"Astroboy" (Right Stuff) in episodes 1-2-3 make fun of germans(militant and
ridge)italian (emotional and foolish) and chinese (cannon fodder extra
=foolish
coolie caught in a crossfire). " Luna Varga" (AD vision) modifies the old joke
with the chinese cook yelling in chinese with a cleaver who becomes cannon
fodder
as he gets caught in battle crossfire...
I think the better Japanese anime are more sensitive about
ethnic and nationalistic stereotypes. In "Macross Plus"
(Manga Entertainment) and you see that african americans characters are
treated with respect and give decent roles. In "Nadia"(Streamline video)
the main character is dark-skinned and the storyline is
very sensitive to the racial issue. The main character in "3x3 eyes"
(StreamLine video) is tibetan/chinese so the storyline
is very sensitive to tibetan and chinese culture.
I dont mind the chinese ethnic stereotyping in"Ranma 1/2"
(Viz Video) because its done in good taste and the comedy
relys in universal human jokes/slapstick - the jokes
are not ethnically directed. However, I do agree that ppl
of european descent and the japanese nationalities are
give more coverage and get to be more than 2-D figures.
an example of my anime picks would be ....
===========================
"The irresponsible captain Tyler"(right stuff) comedy/adventure/scifi
"Evangelion"(AD vision) - drama/adventure/scifi
"You're Under Arrest" (Animeigo) - shonin/boy car comedy
"Sailor moon" (?) - shoujo/girl adventure/comedy
"Bablyon Tokyo"(viz video) shoujo/girl romance-drama- adventure -mystics-
"maison ikkoku" (viz video) - romance/comedy
"Princess Miyu"(Animeigo) - kabuki vampire horror
"ninja scroll" (Manga Entertainment) - classic samurai action.
"Patlabor"(CPM?) - mecha adventure/comedy
there are much more but then the thread would get too long... heheheh
I've seen some action/martial arts Japanese Anime that hammers
germans pretty hard. I thinke the worst is "Kishen Corp" (LDC
Pioneer). which basically historical revisionism of the invasion
of Manchuria - ugh... The Japanese military enter manchuria
inorder to stop an invasion by outerspace aliens (using big
mechanical robots the japanese race against the Nazis
to get an alien technology to stop the invasion..
-- I said Nazis ... so now this thread is dead...)
> [snip]
Tomoyuki Tanaka
Rene Carlos <necr...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
>
>Hmmm... While I've never been to Japan, what I've read
>on the subject indicates (implicitly and explicitly)
>that the Japanese think of themselves as a distinct
>race, separate from the rest of the world,
i've noticed that many ignorant Americans blindly believe this.
a bigot named Reischauer repeated that rubbish for many decades.
"Nowhere is [racial prejudice] greater than in Japan and
other lands of East Asia. ...
It is as if they regarded themselves as a different
species from the rest of humanity."
(see below for the citation)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
i'll probably include the following in the FAQ file itself.
supplement to "American misconceptions about Japan FAQ",
which is available all over the net, including at
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet-faqs/html/top.html
http://www.cs.ruu.nl/cgi-bin/faqwais
http://www.intac.com/FAQ.html
http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/by_group.index.html
http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/
http://www.ucsalf.ac.uk/cgibin/faqsearch
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/
ftp://ftp.faqs.org/faqs/
--------------------------------------------------------------------
American propaganda of "racist Japanese"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
there have been tremendous efforts in the USA to promote the
image of "racist Japanese".
contents:
(1) "racist Japanese": the American propaganda
(2) "racist Japanese": THE TRUTH
(3) Anti-semitism in Japan
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) "racist Japanese": the American propaganda
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Edwin O. Reischauer. The Japanese Today. (1988)
"Nowhere is [racial prejudice] greater than in Japan and
other lands of East Asia. Because the Japanese have
merged their feelings about race, culture, and nation
together, they have probably made their attitudes toward
race all the stronger. It is as if they regarded
themselves as a different species from the rest of
humanity." (Page 396)
"the hairy bodies of Caucasian men are still somewhat
revolting to Japanese" (Page 397)
in these several pages, Reischauer tries hard to promote
the image of "Japan, the most racist nation on earth".
--- an American publisher just published a book that's completely
devoted to anti-Semitism in Japan:
"Jews in the Japanese mind" (The Free Press).
--- recent American reports regarding the magazine "Marco Polo"
from Bungei-shunju, a right-wing Japanese publisher
supported by Oe Kenzaburou and others.
--- US media (most notably The New York Times) constantly
portrays the Japanese as prejudiced (sexist, racist, etc).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) "racist Japanese": THE TRUTH
--------------------------------------------------------------------
racism does exist in Japan, and prejudice toward, say, blacks
can be serious (see HONDA Katuiti [book] "The impoverished
spirit in contemporary Japan", Monthly Review Press).
but racism in Japan is of completely different nature
from that in the USA. in the last 50 years (after WW2),
incidences of racially-motivated violence (like the
following murder cases, or beatings) are unheard of in Japan.
--- Vincent Chin was killed by two white men, with these words:
"It's because of you (little) motherfuckers that we are out
of work." the killers received small fines and probation
for the killing, and spent not a day in jail (1982).
--- Jim Loo was killed because he was allegedly mistaken for
Vietnamese (1989).
--- Yusuf Hawkins (a black teenager) was lynched by a white mob
in New York City (1990).
--- a young white man one day decided, "I'm going to kill me
a Chinaman." a few hours later he attacked, stabbed, and
injured a young Chinese-American man.
(NY Times (Dec 13, 1995) "Attacks Against Asian-Americans
Are Rising" Page A14)
--- in Jan 1996 two white guys killed Thien Minh Ly, a Vietnamese
American. later, one of the killers casually wrote in a
letter, "Oh I killed a jap a while ago".
--- March 1997, in Chicago a 13-year old black boy (Lenard Clark)
was peddling his bicycle home when he was pulled from his
bike and savagely beaten by three white teenagers.
they yelled racial slurs while beating the boy unconscious.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(3) Anti-semitism in Japan
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott T. Hards ("Live from Tokyo..."):
>
> This topic comes up often but the truth is that there
> is no serious anti-Semitism in this country. 99.9% of
> Japanese don't even know anything about Judaism.
i agree.
although the Nazi holocaust is well known in Japan
(it's as well known as the Pearl Harbor attack or the
atomic bombing of Hiroshima),
most Japanese people don't have any real idea about Jewish
people. this was certainly the case with me before coming to
the USA at the age of 13 and meeting Jewish Americans.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
i discuss some other American propaganda efforts in my Usenet FAQ file,
"American misconceptions about Japan FAQ" (2000 lines).
Mike Fester
: In article <6od9os$p...@news.acns.nwu.edu>,
: Rene Carlos <necr...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
: >
: >Hmmm... While I've never been to Japan, what I've read
: >on the subject indicates (implicitly and explicitly)
: >that the Japanese think of themselves as a distinct
: >race, separate from the rest of the world,
:
: i've noticed that many ignorant Americans blindly believe this.
:
: a bigot named Reischauer repeated that rubbish for many decades.
:
: "Nowhere is [racial prejudice] greater than in Japan and
: other lands of East Asia. ...
But when he wrote that, you still lived in Japan. So at THAT time it
was true, TanaKKKa-spud.
Mike
Jim Tsou
>
> Bigger eyes make it easier and faster to show expressions.So we draw animals
> like dogs and cats with big eyes and
> we draw humans with big eyes. animation requires lotsa of drawing
> so you have to do alot of them very quickly. even the people
> who are japanese in japanese cartoon have big eyes if they
> are a main character who has to be drawn with alot of facial expressions.
> making the european is a side issue. Drawing lots of
> cartoon frames is the bigger issue for the animator - bigger
> eyes make it easier to show emotions. You can use the
> voice actor to also show emotions - but that quality
> may get lost when the anime is dubbed. .
The question is phrased all wrong. It's not "Why do anime characters
look so Caucasian?" but, "Why do female anime characters so Caucasian
like?" If you anything about animes, you'd notice this trend that
the guys are very AM-like and the girls are very WF-like. The guys
are often drawn with dark hair, they act wishy washy, reserved and
not very aggressive, not too far off from real life Japanese guys,
while on the other hand, the female anime characters are much more
likely to have colorful hair, and eyes. They are very aggressive
(especially in a sexual context), and do not at all resemble the
real life typical Japanese girl.
The Wrights
>
> In article <6od9os$p...@news.acns.nwu.edu>,
> Rene Carlos <necr...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >Hmmm... While I've never been to Japan, what I've read
> >on the subject indicates (implicitly and explicitly)
> >that the Japanese think of themselves as a distinct
> >race, separate from the rest of the world,
>
> i've noticed that many ignorant Americans blindly believe this.
>
> a bigot named Reischauer repeated that rubbish for many decades.
>
For those new readers who wonder why Mr. Tanaka is treated with such
disdain by so many people, this makes a case study. He selectively cuts
Mr. Carlos's posting to agree with what he wants people to believe. The
full text for the posting was:
******************************************************
Hmmm... While I've never been to Japan, what I've read
on the subject indicates (implicitly and explicitly)
that the Japanese think of themselves as a distinct
race, separate from the rest of the world, and a damn
fine race at that. (Of course, most people think of
themselves like that, i.e., the French.) Here's my
evidence:
*****************************************************
Makes it a little different, doesn't it.
Additionally Mr. Tanaka whishes to denegrate someone like Mr. Reishauer
who has the admiration of most Japanese and Americans, but who Mr.
Tanaka apparently dislikes because he had the audacity to have a
Japanese wife and apparently Mr. Tanaka has had no luck in relating to
any female of any race, creed, color or national origin. Is this a case
of some sort of envy.
Read Mr. Tanaka's postings with an open mind, but don't blindly believe
anything he says without some corroboration.
Nightfall
half of these highly-talented anime artists closet pedophiles?"
Eng...@earthlink.net wrote:
> ..maybe it's drawn by a few perverted japanese artists who has the hots
> for white chicks? ;)
>
> --
> SCAA's Official Host,
> #1 Evil Flamewarrior,
> Eng
Jim Tsou
>
> Jim Tsou wrote:
>
> > The question is phrased all wrong. It's not "Why do anime characters
> > look so Caucasian?" but, "Why do female anime characters so Caucasian
> > like?" If you anything about animes, you'd notice this trend that
> > the guys are very AM-like and the girls are very WF-like. The guys
> > are often drawn with dark hair, they act wishy washy, reserved and
> > not very aggressive, not too far off from real life Japanese guys,
> > while on the other hand, the female anime characters are much more
> > likely to have colorful hair, and eyes. They are very aggressive
> > (especially in a sexual context), and do not at all resemble the
> > real life typical Japanese girl.
>
> ..maybe it's drawn by a few perverted japanese artists who has the hots
> for white chicks? ;)
Yeah! Or maybe they are giving the audience what they want to see.
BTW, what would make them perverted?
Eng...@earthlink.net
>
> walter lee wrote:
> >
> > Bigger eyes make it easier and faster to show expressions.So we draw animals
> > like dogs and cats with big eyes and
> > we draw humans with big eyes. animation requires lotsa of drawing
> > so you have to do alot of them very quickly. even the people
> > who are japanese in japanese cartoon have big eyes if they
> > are a main character who has to be drawn with alot of facial expressions.
> > making the european is a side issue. Drawing lots of
> > cartoon frames is the bigger issue for the animator - bigger
> > eyes make it easier to show emotions. You can use the
> > voice actor to also show emotions - but that quality
> > may get lost when the anime is dubbed. .
>
> look so Caucasian?" but, "Why do female anime characters so Caucasian
> like?" If you anything about animes, you'd notice this trend that
> the guys are very AM-like and the girls are very WF-like. The guys
> are often drawn with dark hair, they act wishy washy, reserved and
> not very aggressive, not too far off from real life Japanese guys,
> while on the other hand, the female anime characters are much more
> likely to have colorful hair, and eyes. They are very aggressive
> (especially in a sexual context), and do not at all resemble the
> real life typical Japanese girl.
..maybe it's drawn by a few perverted japanese artists who has the hots
for white chicks? ;)
--
Bun Mui
>
> From: "Zak Def-Hammer" <no...@m.please>
> Reply to: [1]"Zak Def-Hammer"
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:56:27 +0100
>
>I don't know many Americans with big round eyes! It is a style of drawing
>that doesn't look like anybody. Saying that, in some comics and animations
>such as "Den'ei Shoujo" the characters have large round eyes, but the
>precise shape still makes them look Japanese. The idea is either
>stereotyped, or making assumptions based on American Disney characters.
>
>Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote in message <6ocmea$q2h$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
>| <snip>
>|
>| eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
>| why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
Most actors' voices are from non-Asians such as Donny Osmond in the movie
Mulan, who has a hard time trying speak in an Asian accent in English, so
they have to compensate somehow.
Bun Mui
John Hokanson Jr.
Tanaka) wrote:
>
>although the Nazi holocaust is well known in Japan
> (it's as well known as the Pearl Harbor attack or the
> atomic bombing of Hiroshima),
>
This is interesting.
I was under the belief that the Japanese educational system actively
shuns much WWII literature and history. Especially relating to the
Japanese sneak attack on Pearl Harbor of 1941, while at the same time
talking at great length about the atomic bombs and how "evil" we
americans were in using them.
Well, if they do talk about Pearl Habor, then at least I can feel safe
that they're telling both sides.
Thank you. I shall read your FAQ. ^_^
Greg Macdonald
>(3) naive internationalism.
[snip]
>so most Japanese people have a "naive internationalism", the
>belief that we can be simply human beings, without specifying
>the race, national origin, social status, etc.
What horseshit. The first question out of every Japanese person I ever
met was to establish what country I was from. And to say that social
status plays no part in Japanese culture (or, in fact, in any culture)
shows just how little you know about it, Tommy.
walter lee
Nightfall wrote:
You know, that's always been my suspicion. Another suspicion is: "Are
half of these highly-talented anime artists closet pedophiles?"
children and females are used in most storylines because it is easierto
make them sympathetic characters - it is much more difficult
to make a grown man a sympathetic character because the
audience
tends to view a grown man more skeptically. Remember TV anime
might only have 24 to 28 minutes per story. TV anime only has
around 5 minutes to 7 minutes to do the storyline/ character
buildup
OAVs and anime soap-opera have more time to do storyline
and character buildup so characters can (but not always) have
a more complex buildups. Examples of anime where you have
male character development are "Record of Lorduss Wars"
(Animeigo), "Madox-01" (Animeigo), "Maisson Ikkuko"
(Viz Video), "Evangelion" (AD Vision),
and "Kimagure Orange Road." (Animeigo).
Character development for a older more adult man is more difficult
see "Tales of the Genji" , "legends of the Galactic
heroes". Anime does have an age discrimination factor
built in because most of the audiences are kids
and young adults.
(from Evangelion . . . . distributed by AD Vision)
Dad: Shinji, if you arent going to pilot the Eva-1
YOU can leave now!
Shinji: That's the only reason you want me here! you dont
care about me!
> Jim Tsou wrote:
> >
> > walter lee wrote:
> > >
> > > Bigger eyes make it easier and faster to show expressions.So we draw animals
> > > like dogs and cats with big eyes and
> > > we draw humans with big eyes. animation requires lotsa of drawing
> > > so you have to do alot of them very quickly. even the people
> > > who are japanese in japanese cartoon have big eyes if they
> > > are a main character who has to be drawn with alot of facial expressions.
> > > making the european is a side issue. Drawing lots of
> > > cartoon frames is the bigger issue for the animator - bigger
> > > eyes make it easier to show emotions. You can use the
> > > voice actor to also show emotions - but that quality
> > > may get lost when the anime is dubbed. .
> >
> > The question is phrased all wrong. It's not "Why do anime characters
> > look so Caucasian?" but, "Why do female anime characters so Caucasian
> > like?" If you anything about animes, you'd notice this trend that
> > the guys are very AM-like and the girls are very WF-like. The guys
> > are often drawn with dark hair, they act wishy washy, reserved and
> > not very aggressive, not too far off from real life Japanese guys,
Not all anime make Japanese guys look the wishy washy(a character's
inner conflicts is useful for creating a storyline)
but I would say it is common. Usually by the end of
that story the inner conflict is resolve and the story ends.
There are alot of "coming of age" stories in anime.
If you have seen Giant Robo/Gigantor the young japanese boys
depicted are head-strong, aggressive, and very forward.
In martial arts adventure animes you might find
some asian dude who is not wishy washy
like in the "Fist of North Star " (however, in the live action version
the japanese hero is changed to a euro-descent hero) .
> > while on the other hand, the female anime characters are much more
> > likely to have colorful hair, and eyes. They are very aggressive
> > (especially in a sexual context), and do not at all resemble the
> > real life typical Japanese girl.
>
colorful hair = green, purple, blue, red , brown, black, and
yellow... anything
to make them easy to tell apart ... else they would all
look the same! :-P
physically aggressive ladies are found in mainly shonen /boy comics
because i think
it might be related to some male fantasy? Shoujo/girl
comic have ladies
that are more socially aggressive and less physically
aggressive. See
"Sailor Moon", "Bablyon Tokyo", "Then there were 11",
"Please Save my Earth" (viz video), "Marmalade Boy",
"Child's Toy", "Vision of Escaflowne", and "Nurse
Angel Rika SOS".
Some Shoujo/girl anime has been redone in the Shonen/boy
anime style, see "Cutie Honey" <<male fantasy
quasi-hentai anime.
of course there is always "Little Kitty"(Sanrio Video/Family Home Entertainment)
.
======================================
|
A | "
-----------------
/ / \
\
===================
/\
/\ ||
_/ \--/\ _ /\
||
/ (
(_) ) ||
/
\/ \/ ||Sanrio
/ 0
0 \ ||Hello
--| O
|-- ||Kitty
--| V
|-- ||
--\
/-- _||_
_>----------<____(
)
/ | |_____| |
\__/
/ | o o |____
||_
/ /
) \__)
Mom Loves Me After All
======================================
walter lee
> Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
> eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
> why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
>
> three reasons:
> (1) Japanese are brainwashed by racist American standards of beauty.
japanese have a sense of beauty that is uniquely japanese.
> (2) lack of anti-Japanese prejudice.
japanese anime is primarily an entertainment vechicleanime isnot normally used
to distribute/send political messages
however, there is a censor group that TV anime must pass.
[snip ]
Michael Lo
as well? Aaaghhh!!
While everyone, I'm sure is sorry to hear your experience in
Indiana, I severely doubt there's an American conspiracy to subjugate
Japan ala The X-Files, especially since America's too busy doing it
to Canada (big, wide GRIN!!).
Your first point about brain washing and influx of American
beauty standars is hyperbole. Brain washing only happens in a total
control environment like a concentration camp or Oz prison (shameless
plug for that show, should be made into a cartoon that we can export
to Japan.). As for beauty standards, sure the standard has changed
from black teeth, small eyes and round heads but can that solely be
blamed on America (I for one am rather glad for the absence of black
teeth). In China, and I may be in major error here, full hips, full
breasts, tall height and pale skin are the rage and have been that
way from Imperial times. Did that come from Pamela Anderson and Baywatch?
No because this was around prior to Marco Polo, it stemmed from influence
by India and the preference of the looks of the Northern Chinese over
the Southern ones combined. Sure there are Asians going for eye-enlargening
operations (most famous case being ol' supercop Jackie Chan) but I severely
doubt that the Japanese think themselves as butt ugly. If you make the
case that Asians think Westerners are more beautiful, well Elurio I believe
pointed out that a lot of Americans think that on average Asian girls are
more beautiful (but what about us guys. Waahhhh (grin)!!). This perception
of who's more beautiful comes from lack of exposure to large heaps of
individuals making it seem that a few individuals represent the whole and how
prevalent features of one group are part of the beauty standard in another
through coincedence. Pale skin is a beauty feature for the Japanese and
who's paler than the Irish on average?
Your second point elevates the Japanese to standards undeserved.
Sure it's not like there's roving groups of skinheads out to flay blacks
but alot of Japanese are ethnocentric. They really do think themselves
the best. This too is a form of predjudice. Also while there haven't
been exactly violent clashes, there have been snubs, lesser service and
other forms of shoddy treatments to non-Japanese. Am I saying that
the Japanese are a pack of racist pigs? Far from it, but the same goes
for the US, Canada, Europe, racists make up a small minority. If you
say that what I said is naive, that discomfort with other groups is common.
Well you're right discomfort with those who are different than you is common.
It's understandable as many people are at loss at what to do when they
encounter something little known. But this isn't isolated to race, heck
I get looks from fellow Chinese because I hail from a punk subculture whereas
a lot of them come from the Cantopop background. I rag on their tastes
occassionally but I don't go about beating them up. Anyhow when you state
the Japanese feel that everyone is human, there is no black, white or Asian;
that's not unique to the Japanese. However the higher than thou attitudes
of some of them is pretty taxing too.
As for the Japanese being naive to the racist opinions of others,
you're dreaming. Anyone with half a brain can detect the cold shoulder
or stare a mile away. I think anyone from Japan would know instantly
if someone's giving off hostility, in fact the Japanese should be the
best at it as they're taught to know and control body language at an
early age.
Racism of course will be more prevalent in the US but that's
because they have a much larger population, a more diverse community
which increases likelyhood of conflict but to denounce the US as
Uncle Tom racist is unfair. If Japan had similar circumstances as the
US, how much would actually differ.
PS: I'm Canadian and am far from protecting America's "good"
name out of patriotism. The States have their problems.
:x
Michael Lo
Japanese cartoons, Westerners and Japanese are drawn with the "Caucasian"
look but other Asians get the slanty eye treatment.
If this is true, why is it?
:x
Tomoyuki Tanaka
walter lee
Michael Lo wrote:
> I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I heard that in some
> Japanese cartoons, Westerners and Japanese are drawn with the "Caucasian"
> look but other Asians get the slanty eye treatment.
>
> If this is true, why is it?
> :x
some some anime show do use slanty eye treatments for chineses stereotype
(see "Luna Varga"). However, this is not always the case , see "3x3 eyes" and
"3x3 eyes II" for an
example of chinese/tibetan, Pai, who doesnot get the slanty eye treatment,
however her japanese undead hero Yajumo Fuji does have slanty eyes!
South asian indians (e.g. silhk, hindi, muslims) donot get the slanty eye
treatment.
I havenot seen any depictions of koreans, vietnamese, and other southeast
asians
in anime. However, in some anime like "Tales of the Genji" and " Hakadden"
the big round eyes are not used and a more realistic almond shaped eyes are
used.
Jim Tsou
>
> children and females are used in most storylines because it is
> easierto make them sympathetic characters - it is much more difficult
> to make a grown man a sympathetic character because the audience
> tends to view a grown man more skeptically. Remember TV anime
> might only have 24 to 28 minutes per story.
But if you watch TV anime, you'd think the viewers would know the
characters from earlier episodes, unless in each episode they
cast is all new.
> colorful hair = green, purple, blue, red , brown, black, and
> yellow... anything
> to make them easy to tell apart ... else they would all look the
> same! :-P
Why more so with girls than guys?
> physically aggressive ladies are found in mainly shonen /boy comics
> because i think
> it might be related to some male fantasy? Shoujo/girl comic have
> ladies
> that are more socially aggressive and less physically aggressive.
> See
> "Sailor Moon", "Bablyon Tokyo", "Then there were 11",
> "Please Save my Earth" (viz video), "Marmalade Boy",
> "Child's Toy", "Vision of Escaflowne", and "Nurse Angel Rika SOS".
>
> Some Shoujo/girl anime has been redone in the Shonen/boy
> anime style, see "Cutie Honey" <<male fantasy quasi-hentai anime.
And then there is Golden Boy, where in a round about way the anime
parodies the Japanese male fantasy of the voluptuous, scantily
clad hot blonde in the fast Ferrari.
Charles Eicher
> Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
>
> > Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
> > eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
> > why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
> >
> > three reasons:
> > (1) Japanese are brainwashed by racist American standards of beauty.
>
> japanese have a sense of beauty that is uniquely japanese.
That isn't strictly true. Most of the visual techniques in Japanese art
came from Chinese sources. For example, ukiyo-e pictures of "bijin"
(beautiful women) depicted these women in the same ways as earlier Chinese
paintings. These Chinese artworks usually depicted women with white faces
and thin, slanted eyes.
>
> > (2) lack of anti-Japanese prejudice.
>
> japanese anime is primarily an entertainment vechicleanime isnot normally used
> to distribute/send political messages
> however, there is a censor group that TV anime must pass.
ha.. There's an old quote attributed to Samuel Goldwyn, "When I want to
send the audience a message, I'll call Western Union!"
Charles Eicher
The "almond eyes" used in depicting classics like "Genji monogatari" would
most likely be references to early paintings of these stories. These
paintings of scenes from "Genji" are famous throughout Japan, and are
widely known (there are even several pages of color illustrations of these
paintings in a dictionary I own!) These paintings are early predecessors of
the manga format, they retell the story in sequential format. The style of
depicting faces in these Genji paintings are largely derived from Chinese
art.
Rhialto
another kanji, when I suddenly had a horrible thought. What if all these
manga really did show the characters with the slanty eyes which Mister
Tanaka apparently wants them to have? (He apparently does not approve of the
current artistic style of big eyes).
I can't help feeling that such a situation would only reinforce any racist
stereotypes that may exist with regard to the Japanese.
---
Rhialto
Scott Reynolds
> Hmmm... While I've never been to Japan, what I've read
> on the subject indicates (implicitly and explicitly)
> that the Japanese think of themselves as a distinct
> race, separate from the rest of the world, and a damn
> fine race at that. (Of course, most people think of
> themselves like that, i.e., the French.)
Okay, so you realize that the Japanese thinking of themselves as
"unique" is no different from the situation in many other countries.
That's good.
> Here's my
> evidence:
>
> 1. No naturalization. Immigrants will always be just
> that; I don't recall when they last were able to
> become Japanese citizens, but I believe it's been a
> long while. Third-generation Koreans who speak
> fluent Japanese are still Korean nationals.
Sorry. This is completely false. Foreigners can become naturalized
Japanese citizens, provided they meet the residency requirements and
don't have a criminal record.
Those "Korean nationals" you speak of have Korean nationality by their
own choice. They can become Japanese citizens if they wish to (and many
in fact do each year).
> Hell, Okinawans, who were absorbed into the Empire
> hundreds of years ago, are still not "Japanese" to
> the Japanese.
They most certainly are Japanese! You are totally off base here.
> My professor, who lived in Japan for
> a few years, could never tell an Okinawan just by
> looking. But, she says, mainlanders can, and do.
Nope. Totally untrue.
> 2. Large anthropology and archaeology initiatives.
> Some large proportion (which I can't recall at this
> time, of course) of Japanese academia and graduate
> students are in these fields, more than in most other
> countries. This is, in the words of Scientific
> American magazine, a grand endeavor to get scientific
> and historical proof that the Japanese are a distinct
> and untainted people, especially with respect to
> China and Korea. A full account is in SciAm a few
> months back, entitled, "Who are the Japanese?"
An emphasis on anthropology and archaeology would indicate an interest
in the facts, in a scientifically proven manner. Also, since Japan is an
island nation, how could the Japanese be "a distinct and untainted
people"? They had to come from somewhere. I cannot imagine a Japanese
person claiming that the Japanese people originated in Japan, rather
than coming from somewhere else.
> 3. Language barriers. When accustomed foreigners
> speak, many natives are surprised at their Japanese.
> They believe their language is, of course, unique,
> and beyond the ken of "gaijin." Yes, Japanese is a
> difficult language, but is it that hard to believe
> that anyone can study hard and practice?
No one is surprised that "foreigners" can speak Japanese these days,
with the possible exception of people living in areas so rural and
remote that they have never seen or met one.
> A man from my high school, David Specter, is a minor
> celebrity in Japan. He goes on talk shows, talking
> about the US and being a foreigner, in perfect
> vernacular, and they eat it up. There are a couple
> of these gaijin doing the talk show circuit.
And since everyone has TV in Japan, even people living in isolated areas
know that "foreigners" can speak Japanese.
> I'm not trying to start a flame war here. Many of
> these things can be said about every country, and
> certainly the US. But I just don't buy that anime
> characters look the way they do because the studios
> are just so dern wholesome.
Japanese anime is very stylized, yes, and many of the characters are
drawn to look like white people, including blue eyes and blond hair.
Other characters, OTOH, look much more Japanese.
> I agree that there may be some beauty standards (see
> the tongue-in-cheek documentary, "The Japanese
> Version"), and that it may just be a stylistic thing
> (does Stimpy look like any cat you've ever had?).
> But, realistically, Japanese animation as an
> industry is no more naive and altruistic than the
> Disney execs PC-ing their features.
The studios supply what sells, obviously. If the Japanese public wanted
anime characters that looked more Japanese than white, that's the way
the studios would have the artists draw them.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
walter lee
Jim Tsou wrote:
> walter lee wrote:
> >
> > children and females are used in most storylines because it is
> > easierto make them sympathetic characters - it is much more difficult
> > to make a grown man a sympathetic character because the audience
> > tends to view a grown man more skeptically. Remember TV anime
> > might only have 24 to 28 minutes per story.
>
> But if you watch TV anime, you'd think the viewers would know the
> characters from earlier episodes, unless in each episode they
> cast is all new.
This possiblity is often the case. Serialized/soap-opera TVanime can make
better use of character development.
Character development requires a good writer/team of
of writers that maintain a historical dossier on each character.
>
>
> > colorful hair = green, purple, blue, red , brown, black, and
> > yellow... anything
> > to make them easy to tell apart ... else they would all look the
> > same! :-P
>
> Why more so with girls than guys?
please reread the first paragraph.
> > physically aggressive ladies are found in mainly shonen /boy comics
> > because i think
> > it might be related to some male fantasy? Shoujo/girl comic have
> > ladies
> > that are more socially aggressive and less physically aggressive.
> > See
> > "Sailor Moon", "Bablyon Tokyo", "Then there were 11",
> > "Please Save my Earth" (viz video), "Marmalade Boy",
> > "Child's Toy", "Vision of Escaflowne", and "Nurse Angel Rika SOS".
> >
> > Some Shoujo/girl anime has been redone in the Shonen/boy
> > anime style, see "Cutie Honey" <<male fantasy quasi-hentai anime.
>
> And then there is Golden Boy, where in a round about way the anime
> parodies the Japanese male fantasy of the voluptuous, scantily
> clad hot blonde in the fast Ferrari.
The Golden Boy 's real fantasy is about how the computer industry
really works.
walter lee
> In article <35AB72A2...@erols.com>, dry...@erols.com wrote:
>
> > Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
> >
> > > Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
> > > eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
> > > why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
> > >
> > > three reasons:
> > > (1) Japanese are brainwashed by racist American standards of beauty.
> >
> > japanese have a sense of beauty that is uniquely japanese.
>
> That isn't strictly true. Most of the visual techniques in Japanese art
> came from Chinese sources. For example, ukiyo-e pictures of "bijin"
> (beautiful women) depicted these women in the same ways as earlier Chinese
> paintings. These Chinese artworks usually depicted women with white faces
> and thin, slanted eyes.
>
I agree that japanese art doesnot strictly hold up to its ownhowever much of art is
the synthesizes of previous cultures.
I am will to define japanese art as unique because they have
altered the many things they have borrowed culturally.
The japanese have borrowed from china and probably korea
(e.g. kanji, paintings, clothing, pottery, etc) however, the
japanese have synthesized much of it with their own style..
I feel/ believe that bonsi trees, flower arrangament,
rock gardens (all racked rock beds), orgami, etc have
a unique japanese flavor. However, I understand your
point and contention.
> >
> > > (2) lack of anti-Japanese prejudice.
> >
> > japanese anime is primarily an entertainment vechicleanime isnot normally used
> > to distribute/send political messages
> > however, there is a censor group that TV anime must pass.
>
> ha.. There's an old quote attributed to Samuel Goldwyn, "When I want to
> send the audience a message, I'll call Western Union!"
>
Atsushi Ishida
> Rene Carlos wrote:
>
> > Hmmm... While I've never been to Japan, what I've read
> > on the subject indicates (implicitly and explicitly)
> > that the Japanese think of themselves as a distinct
> > race, separate from the rest of the world, and a damn
> > fine race at that. (Of course, most people think of
> > themselves like that, i.e., the French.)
>
> Okay, so you realize that the Japanese thinking of themselves as
> "unique" is no different from the situation in many other countries.
> That's good.
>
>
Interesting. IMHO the truth lies somewhere between Mr. Carlos' thesis
and Scott's antithesis. "Nihonjinron," or the theory of the Japanese
race, or volk, is immensely popular here in Japan. The starting and
ending point of every "nihonjinron" expert is that the Japanese are
unique. Compare "nihonjinron" with the old English obsession with
Englishness - "nihonjinron" is much more extreme and insular. Living in
Japan, you quickly lose count of the number of sentences you hear which
begin with the words "Ware ware nihonjin" or "We Japanese..." It seems
like almost every day you kind find some TV show in which "panela" are
discussing qualities which are peculiar to Japan and the Japanese. And
remember some of the amazing things Japanese politicians have said:
Japanese intestines are too long to digest foreign beef, etc. Of
course, these are just bullshit negotiating tactics, but imagine
statements like these being taken seriously in any other country except
perhaps Third-Reich Germany.
Consider also the Japanese obsession with blood and blood types, which
is really just a sub-genre of "nihonjinron." Many job applicants are
apparently required to give their blood types on application forms, and
the past president of Nippon Steel once remarked that blood type
influences his choice of employees. Can you imagine an American company
hiring on the basis of zodiac signs? I remember reading somewhere that
Tanaka's buddy Reischauer was believed to be more sympathetic and
"understanding" toward the Japanese than most gaijin because he had
received a transfusion of Japanese blood.
> > 1. No naturalization. Immigrants will always be just
> > that; I don't recall when they last were able to
> > become Japanese citizens, but I believe it's been a
> > long while. Third-generation Koreans who speak
> > fluent Japanese are still Korean nationals.
>
> Sorry. This is completely false. Foreigners can become naturalized
> Japanese citizens, provided they meet the residency requirements and
> don't have a criminal record.
>
>
Sure they can. How many did last year? Was it 11 or 12?
> Those "Korean nationals" you speak of have Korean nationality by their
>
> own choice. They can become Japanese citizens if they wish to (and
> many
> in fact do each year).
>
> > Hell, Okinawans, who were absorbed into the Empire
> > hundreds of years ago, are still not "Japanese" to
> > the Japanese.
>
> They most certainly are Japanese! You are totally off base here.
>
>
Obviously they're Japanese, but I've heard a lot of Japanese talk about
how Okinawans are better looking and have "bigger eyes" because they
have Portuguese or Filipino blood or some such crap.
> > My professor, who lived in Japan for
> > a few years, could never tell an Okinawan just by
> > looking. But, she says, mainlanders can, and do.
>
> Nope. Totally untrue.
Well, a lot of "mainlanders" claim to be able to.
joh man
>Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
>
>> Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
>> eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
>> why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
>>
>> three reasons:
>> (1) Japanese are brainwashed by racist American standards of beauty.
>
> japanese have a sense of beauty that is uniquely japanese.
>
>
Heck no!! The main male character in most Japanese animation looks more
like me than any Causcasian i have known. Don't u even dare stick me with
your idea that i have slanted eyes or anything. In fact, i had 2 people say
that about me without even looking. Then i pointed out that my eyes were
bigger than theirs. It was a fact and they couldn't argue.
Rick Hunter from Robotech looks more like me:P Oh, did i mention i get
alot of real life girls too?
javalholic
> I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I heard that in some
>Japanese cartoons, Westerners and Japanese are drawn with the "Caucasian"
>look but other Asians get the slanty eye treatment.
>
> If this is true, why is it?
>:x
You have to admit it, that seems to happen even if u don't want to believe
it. Although the main character is say to be japanese or caucasian male, they
seems to look more like the other asian groups, mostly Vietnamese b/c i see
them in school alot. Indians have big eyes(bigger than caucasians) but their
skin is darker. I am not kidding, my school has quite a few vietnamese and
all the vietnamese that has some chinese background have either slanted eyes
or very taller. One guy has one eye slanted and one not. But a family of
vietnamese boys who is ALL viet, all has normal size eyes. If you dont
believe me, just go out and see for yourself.
I guess with all the belief that all asian look alike, we forget that the
some smaller asian groups have some caucasian characteristic, but not all. So
i wouldn't say that Japanese animation character look either Japanese or
Caucassian, it's somewhere in between.
Com'n you have to admit it. Do u remember they somewhere that they say we
Americans draw all asian alike?
Jim Tsou
>
> Jim Tsou wrote:
>
> > And then there is Golden Boy, where in a round about way the anime
> > parodies the Japanese male fantasy of the voluptuous, scantily
> > clad hot blonde in the fast Ferrari.
>
> The Golden Boy 's real fantasy is about how the computer industry
> really works.
Oh... I must have missed it then.
Jim Tsou
>
> Jim Tsou wrote:
>
> > walter lee wrote:
> > >
> > > children and females are used in most storylines because it is
> > > easierto make them sympathetic characters - it is much more difficult
> > > to make a grown man a sympathetic character because the audience
> > > tends to view a grown man more skeptically. Remember TV anime
> > > might only have 24 to 28 minutes per story.
> > > colorful hair = green, purple, blue, red , brown, black, and
> > > yellow... anything
> > > to make them easy to tell apart ... else they would all look the
> > > same! :-P
> >
> > Why more so with girls than guys?
>
> please reread the first paragraph.
Most of the animes of that genre are about high school boys and girls,
hardly grown men. Can you show me what I missed in the first paragraph?
Atsushi Ishida
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Atsushi Ishida wrote in article
> <35ACC54D...@gol.com>:
>
> >Scott Reynolds wrote:
>
> >> Rene Carlos wrote:
>
> >> > Hmmm... While I've never been to Japan, what I've read
> >> > on the subject indicates (implicitly and explicitly)
> >> > that the Japanese think of themselves as a distinct
> >> > race, separate from the rest of the world, and a damn
> >> > fine race at that. (Of course, most people think of
> >> > themselves like that, i.e., the French.)
>
> >> Okay, so you realize that the Japanese thinking of themselves as
> >> "unique" is no different from the situation in many other
> countries.
> >> That's good.
>
> >Interesting. IMHO the truth lies somewhere between Mr. Carlos'
> thesis
> >and Scott's antithesis. "Nihonjinron," or the theory of the Japanese
>
> >race, or volk, is immensely popular here in Japan. The starting and
> >ending point of every "nihonjinron" expert is that the Japanese are
> >unique. Compare "nihonjinron" with the old English obsession with
> >Englishness - "nihonjinron" is much more extreme and insular.
>
> [...]
>
> You mean they no longer say "But we are ***BRITISH***"?
>
> >Consider also the Japanese obsession with blood and blood types,
> which
> >is really just a sub-genre of "nihonjinron." Many job applicants are
>
> >apparently required to give their blood types on application forms,
> and
> >the past president of Nippon Steel once remarked that blood type
> >influences his choice of employees. Can you imagine an American
> company
> >hiring on the basis of zodiac signs? I remember reading somewhere
> that
> >Tanaka's buddy Reischauer was believed to be more sympathetic and
> >"understanding" toward the Japanese than most gaijin because he had
> >received a transfusion of Japanese blood.
>
> [...]
>
> To put some meat on those shrunken bones, Reischauer was both
> sympathetic toward and knowledgeable about Japan because he was born
> and
> raised there, studied and taught both the history and the language,
> and,
> following the death of his first wife, married a Japanese woman he had
>
> known from his younger years. No need for an urban myth about a blood
>
> transfusion. Or perhaps you didn't mean that literally.
>
No, of course I didn't mean that literally. It was, however, widely
believed by many Japanese back when Reischauer was the ambassador.
Asushi Ishida
> To put some meat on those shrunken bones, Reischauer was both
> sympathetic toward and knowledgeable about Japan because he was born
> and
> raised there, studied and taught both the history and the language,
> and,
> following the death of his first wife, married a Japanese woman he had
>
> known from his younger years. No need for an urban myth about a blood
>
> transfusion. Or perhaps you didn't mean that literally.
I'm always surprised at how many American urban myths the Japanese have
heard. For example, McDonald's uses cat and/or worm meat in its
burgers, Kentucky Fried Rat, poison gas in bubble wrap, and so on. One
myth they HAVEN'T heard is the one about disgruntled pizza delivery guys
ejaculating on their pizzas.
Scott Reynolds
>
> Scott Reynolds wrote:
> > Sorry. This is completely false. Foreigners can become naturalized
> > Japanese citizens, provided they meet the residency requirements and
> > don't have a criminal record.
> Sure they can. How many did last year? Was it 11 or 12?
I would have assumed several hundred, at least. Since neither of us has
the real figure, we'll just have to wait until someone posts it. (Either
that or, god forbid!, do some actual research ourselves.) ;-)
> > > Hell, Okinawans, who were absorbed into the Empire
> > > hundreds of years ago, are still not "Japanese" to
> > > the Japanese.
> >
> > They most certainly are Japanese! You are totally off base here.
> Obviously they're Japanese, but I've heard a lot of Japanese talk about
> how Okinawans are better looking and have "bigger eyes" because they
> have Portuguese or Filipino blood or some such crap.
And there are lots of ugly (as well as perfectly "ordinary" looking)
Okinawans as well.
At any rate, did you ever hear a Japanese person tell you that Okinawans
are not "really" Japanese?
> > > My professor, who lived in Japan for
> > > a few years, could never tell an Okinawan just by
> > > looking. But, she says, mainlanders can, and do.
> >
> > Nope. Totally untrue.
>
> Well, a lot of "mainlanders" claim to be able to.
A lot of "mainlanders" also claim that they can tell you what someone's
personality is like based on their blood type, as you mentioned in your
post. That doesn't make it true.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
Scott Reynolds
> To put some meat on those shrunken bones, Reischauer was both
> sympathetic toward and knowledgeable about Japan because he was born and
> raised there, studied and taught both the history and the language, and,
> following the death of his first wife, married a Japanese woman he had
> known from his younger years. No need for an urban myth about a blood
> transfusion. Or perhaps you didn't mean that literally.
I think I remember reading something about this. If I remember
correctly, the transfusion in question occurred after then-ambassador
Reischauer was attacked by a knife-wielding youth. I'm afraid I don't
recall who made the comment, but I would assume it was made in jest.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
David Maddox
Asushi Ishida <atsu...@gol.com> writes:
>
> I'm always surprised at how many American urban myths the Japanese have
> heard. For example, McDonald's uses cat and/or worm meat in its
> burgers, Kentucky Fried Rat, poison gas in bubble wrap, and so on. One
> myth they HAVEN'T heard is the one about disgruntled pizza delivery guys
> ejaculating on their pizzas.
Kentucky Fried Rat is my favorite. <mental note: tip the pizza guy>
--
I8R,
Dave "Wile E."
'76 FXE
'70 FLH
HSB #33 1/3
KotST
David Maddox
ez07...@dilbert.ucdavis.edu (Tomoyuki Tanaka) writes:
> In article <6og1sh$7b2$1...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I heard that in some
>>Japanese cartoons, Westerners and Japanese are drawn with the "Caucasian"
>>look but other Asians get the slanty eye treatment.
>>
>> If this is true, why is it?
>>:x
>
>
> did you hear that from American bigots?
It's true Tanaka-chode. I've seen in some videos I rented. Some
other people have posted the same. <sigh> What a loOser.
Don Kirkman
>Scott Reynolds wrote:
>> Rene Carlos wrote:
[...]
[...]
To put some meat on those shrunken bones, Reischauer was both
sympathetic toward and knowledgeable about Japan because he was born and
raised there, studied and taught both the history and the language, and,
following the death of his first wife, married a Japanese woman he had
known from his younger years. No need for an urban myth about a blood
transfusion. Or perhaps you didn't mean that literally.
--
Don
new...@abac.com
SARAH LYNN DAVIS
Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote in message <6ocmea$q2h$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
>
>> Re: Why do Japanese look up to Americans (or whites)?
>> three reasons.
>> 1. wanting to learn from the West starting in the Meiji period.
>> 2. the 7-year occupation
>> 3. Hollywood movies.
>>
>> i think this (internalization of racism) happens in any colony,
>> not just Japan.
>>
>
> some more related comments in the following.
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>a question i've been asked by Americans many times:
>
>Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
> eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
> why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
I don't think they do. In my eyes it is purely a style. You might also note
that in some anime characters will start out looking one way (for example,
Caucasian) and end looking another way (Japanese). Watch Bubblegum Crisis
episodes one and seven. In one the main character looks Caucasian. In seven
she looks Japanese. It all depends on the artist. If you watch the animated
version of Nanso Satomi Hakkenden you will see that the characters
definitely look Japanese.
>three reasons:
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>(1) Japanese are brainwashed by racist American standards of beauty.
>
>during and after the US-occupation following WW2, the Japanese
>aesthetics sense was gravely affected. many Japanese people were
>brainwashed by the same prejudiced standards of beauty that is
>prevalent in the USA: "white people are beautiful; Asian and
>black people are ugly."
I've never believed that in my life, and the fact that you are generalizing
all Americans as prejudiced like this is one of the most grotesque acts of
racism I've seen on the usenet thus far.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>(2) lack of anti-Japanese prejudice.
>
>we Japanese see ourselves only as humans. we Japanese naturally
>don't think of ourselves as ugly, short, yellow, buck-toothed,
>slant-eyed, etc. ONLY racist Americans think this way, and draw
>cartoon characters accordingly.
>
>see the relevant section in "disparity in Asian/white
>interracial dating FAQ". (i quote Malcolm X in that section.)
I've seen cartoons that do that; this I will not deny. But how many "white
trash" characters such as Homer Simpson have you seen over the years?
Everyone is guilty of it. This does not excuse the actions or justify them
in any way, but it's true.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>(3) naive internationalism.
>
>most Japanese people have no idea that they are a target of an
>intense racial prejudice, as in the USA. they don't even really
>know what "anti-Semitism" is. in fact, when I lived in California
>"racism" was just a word, an abstract concept I learned in class
>in connection with slavery and the civil rights movement. here
>in Bloomington, Indiana I learned how real racism is.
>
>so most Japanese people have a "naive internationalism", the
>belief that we can be simply human beings, without specifying
>the race, national origin, social status, etc.
>
>most of Tezuka's work for children (Astroboy, ribon no kisi,
>etc) are done in this spirit.
That's a nice thought and it would be wonderful if they world worked that
way, but it does not. Everyone has what he or she believes to be standards
of beauty. Some people prefer thin individuals while others prefer obese
people. People judge on appearance. Your claim that the Japanese do not do
this is bizarre. If they do not judge based on perceived physical
attractiveness, why are the important characters in the series so often
beautiful people based on somewhat universal standards. Series such as "The
Dirty Pair," "Bubblegum Crisis," "Sailor Moon," and so many more were
obviously made in Japan but they feature attractive people in lead roles.
The Japanese you claim do not care about physical appearance are the ones
who designed them to be appealing.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>see also section (2.1) MYTH: Japanese (Asians) have slanted eyes
>of "American misconceptions about Japan FAQ".
What makes you think that I, as a person, believe this? I know people who
do, but do I? No. You're stereotyping, and that comes with racism. You're
paranoid, delusional, and apparently a troll.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>re: "Tanaka-san"
>
>please do not call me "Tanaka-san" in English speech or text.
>white Americans (e.g. comedians, bigots, smart alecs) often use
>the "-san" ending to make fun of the Japanese and Japanese Americans.
>see http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370355372
You needn't reference your materials; that's almost begging for people to
use that term. You turned it into an insult. If I were ever to call you
"Tanaka-san" it would be out of respect. Until now, of course. It's
startling how the fourth post I ever read on this newsgroup is claiming I'm
an ignorant biggot. Not everyone thinks the same way.
>;;; TANAKA Tomoyuki ("Mr. Tanaka" or "Tomoyuki")
>;;; http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html
Sarah Davis
Ernest Schaal
In article <6odrnt$4ak$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
ez07...@dilbert.ucdavis.edu (Tomoyuki Tanaka) wrote:
]In article <6od9os$p...@news.acns.nwu.edu>,
]Rene Carlos <necr...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
]>
]>Hmmm... While I've never been to Japan, what I've read
]>on the subject indicates (implicitly and explicitly)
]>that the Japanese think of themselves as a distinct
]>race, separate from the rest of the world,
]
]
] i've noticed that many ignorant Americans blindly believe this.
I've noticed that Tanaka usually labels Americans as ignorant
or stupid, yet I've also noticed that the Americans on this
newsgroup (and the British) usually know a lot more about Japan
than Tanaka does.
Tanaka portrays himself as a native of Japan, visiting
the States as a graduate student but his understanding
about things Japanese makes one wonder.
]
] a bigot named Reischauer repeated that rubbish for many decades.
The audacity of the racist bigot named Tanaka calling anyone else
a racist! I realise that Tanaka has this envy of people who are
respected scholar of Japanese culture while Tanaka is not respected
for anything, but that envy does not justify his constantly libeling
his betters.
]
] "Nowhere is [racial prejudice] greater than in Japan and
] other lands of East Asia. ...
] It is as if they regarded themselves as a different
] species from the rest of humanity."
]
] (see below for the citation)
Once again, Tanaka quotes himself, as if that gives
credence to his statements.
Don Kirkman
<6iAq1.10$HY3....@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca>:
>> Re: why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
>> From: "Zak Def-Hammer" <no...@m.please>
>>I don't know many Americans with big round eyes! It is a style of drawing
>>that doesn't look like anybody. Saying that, in some comics and animations
>>such as "Den'ei Shoujo" the characters have large round eyes, but the
>>precise shape still makes them look Japanese. The idea is either
>>stereotyped, or making assumptions based on American Disney characters.
>>Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote in message <6ocmea$q2h$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
>>|Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
>>| eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
>>| why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
>Most actors' voices are from non-Asians such as Donny Osmond in the movie
>Mulan, who has a hard time trying speak in an Asian accent in English, so
>they have to compensate somehow.
How long has Donny Osmond been doing Japanese anime, anyway? You'd
think he would have learned Japanese by now. Or is something amiss
here?
--
Don
new...@abac.com
a user name...@ridgecrest.ca.us Wu Sang Fu
ignorance of the person who's being racist
Japanese people are racist as well as Chinese people. I'm Chinese, and I
know as hell that many asian cultures are racist. Hell my friends parents
are racist against people in america. I don't know why the hell they're
living here if they are like that.
but back to the point. Japanese people are just as racist as other
cultures. Back near World War II when Japan was taking over bits and pieces
of China, they were racist against Chinese people (I don't know how they
could tell since we all looked alike).
My point is, being racist is being ignorant, and you can always tell there's
always some ignorance in a culture, in any culture, somewhere no matter how
technilogical they are or aren't.
rkee...@san.rr.com
believe that a chinese person could say that japanese and chinese people
look alike...aren't there subtle clues and differences? i think i can
differentitate between chinese and japanese at least 8/10 by sight alone...
Thomas E. Reed
name...@ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
> Japanese people are racist as well as Chinese people. I'm Chinese, and I
> know as hell that many asian cultures are racist. Hell my friends parents
> are racist against people in america. I don't know why the hell they're
> living here if they are like that.
>
> but back to the point. Japanese people are just as racist as other
> cultures. Back near World War II when Japan was taking over bits and pieces
> of China, they were racist against Chinese people (I don't know how they
> could tell since we all looked alike).
I remember seeing an old "Life" Magazine, published at the outbreak of
World War II, that supposedly showed physiological and psychological
differences between Japanese and Chinese, so we could "tell our enemies
from our friends." Most of it was incorrect.
> My point is, being racist is being ignorant, and you can always tell there's
> always some ignorance in a culture, in any culture, somewhere no matter how
> technilogical they are or aren't.
I'd say that being racist IS being ignorant, and there are racists in
every culture. But...some cultures seem to tolerate certain kinds of
racism. And they shouldn't.
For example, if you look at the late Benny Hill's comedies, it seems like
he's still fighting World War II, assuming that every German was a Nazi
and has a lampshade made of a Jew's skin in his living room. He couldn't
get away with that unless a lot of his British fans accepted it.
From what I can see in Japanese anime, there is still racism, but there
are people struggling against racist attitudes.
(By the way, I don't mind risking receiving spam by putting my entire
address on my posts. And I would have made this a private post if you had
included your address, or at least a spamproofed version of this.)
Stephen W. Worth
name...@ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
> Japanese people are racist as well as Chinese people. I'm Chinese, and I
> know as hell that many asian cultures are racist.
Anyone who's seen Mohotmo's Fighting Army, the feature length
Japanese wartime propoganda film, knows that this sort of
thing was present on both sides of the fence during WWII.
See ya
Steve
Visit Spumco's Wonderful World of Cartoons:
http://www.spumco.com
and our newsgroup: alt.animation.spumco
Rene Carlos
This particular episode dealt with silent films.
And I was reminded that, in the silent films of
the 20's, the actors had their faces whitened,
their eyes exaggerated with mascara, eyeliner,
and eyebrow pencil, and their lips highlighted
with lipstick of some sort. Men, women,
children, everbody. Much like mimes put on
makeup today, except not so bold and
unrealistic.
Since these films had no dialogue, simple sets,
and crappy attempts at special effects, mood had
to be set with facial expressions, body language,
and background music. Hence all three are
exaggerated. (See The Smashing Pumpkins' video,
"Tonight, Tonight" for a more recent example.)
Isn't this a more believable explanation for
Anime facial features, rather than social
constructs or political commentary? Especially
since lip movements are really basic; the
character's eyes have to be large to convey all
the emotions easily.
That documentary also taught me that:
2. Cheese is a universal film ingredient,
crossing all cultural boundaries, and
3. Bizzaro, rapidfire editing predates MTV by
at least 60 years.
--
Rene Carlos
necr...@merle.acns.nwu.edu Northwestern University
r.v.c...@larc.nasa.gov Langley Research Center
Charles Eicher
Carlos) wrote:
> I just saw a PBS docu-series ("Cine Europe").
> This particular episode dealt with silent films.
> And I was reminded that, in the silent films of
> the 20's, the actors had their faces whitened,
> their eyes exaggerated with mascara, eyeliner,
> and eyebrow pencil, and their lips highlighted
> with lipstick of some sort. Men, women,
> children, everbody. Much like mimes put on
> makeup today, except not so bold and
> unrealistic.
I think you missed something there.. The reason why these exaggerated
makeup jobs were necessary was because the films were not panchromatic,
that is, they responded weakly to certain colors (especially the reds and
pinks of fleshtones). This was also true in the early days of black and
white TV. Without the strange makeup, people's faces looked unnatural when
the final product was shown. The intent wasn't to exaggerate the
expressions, but to make them look "normal" again.
> Isn't this a more believable explanation for
> Anime facial features, rather than social
> constructs or political commentary? Especially
> since lip movements are really basic; the
> character's eyes have to be large to convey all
> the emotions easily.
Not necessarily. Just to give one example, in Europe (in the 18th century
if I recall) there was research into the entire range of human expression.
One artist actually published an "encyclopedia" showing how every possible
human emotion could be expressed in body language. You could just look up
something like "love' or "anger" and there would be a drawing that showed
how to express that feeling. But none of these drawings used exaggerated
facial features, they would be considered rather naturalistic even by
todays standards. So I would say there is no universal tendency to
exaggerate drawings to convey expression more easily.
I still think you should look at the culture and language for a reasonable
explanation of these "exaggerated' facial features. For example, there are
expressions like "me ni kado o tateru" which literally means "to make one's
eyes angular" but idiomatically means "to get angry". Or another example,
"me o maruku suru" (to make one's eyes round) which means "to stare in
wonderment." Yet another: "me wo sankaku suru" (to make one's eyes
triangular) which means "to look angrily at someone." The conventional
drawing styles of manga merely express these common idioms, which would be
well known to the native Japanese audience. Unfortunately, these idioms are
completely unknown to American (and other non-Japanese) audiences, so we
have endless theorizing about what this all means..
Raymond Kujawa
consistent and deliberate usage of bigger eyes in Ms. Takahashi's to
indicate the youth (bigger & cuter) or age (smaller and less
attractive). In fact, you can almost judge a character's age by the size
of their eyes (of course it's all relative within a particular anime).
It's a key factor in adjusting a character's cuteness. But, Ms.
Takahashi also likes to have fun with this gadget, like when the Master
(Ranma 1/2) sees panties and all of a sudden he's drawn like a super
cutie pie baby for maximum laugh factor. On the other hand, if you look
closely at what makes Rei Ayanami such an intriguing character, you'll
notice her eyes are drawn smaller than her classmates who are all the
same age. This gives the effect of making her look more mature and
serious, like a mother caught out of place. And of course it fits
perfectly because we all **know** she's really a clone of Shinji's dead
mom.
As far as the alledged racism comments, I love Japanese anime precisely
because it is Japanese in its story line and values. There is more
reverence for quality of life than in the old worn out American comic
books I grew up with. If anime artists adopt a slightly caucasion
depiction generally, I think there could be many reasons. Some of these
may be dealing with deeply felt (but unfounded) feelings of inferiority,
first in relation towards Chinese and then towards Europeans (Meiji
Restoration) and finally Americans. But I think that in anime,
characters live lives trying to be more than what they are, seeking a
higher expression of themselves, all the while struggling to be true to
that which is True Japanese. I think this struggle is in all of us.
walter lee wrote:
>
> i watch alot of japanese anime (more than 400 tapes...)
> I seen them in japanese and dubbed in english...
> this question comes up sooo often I would have to say
> that part of this reply is canned..
>
> so here is my canned 2cents.
>
> Rene Carlos wrote:
>
> > Tomoyuki Tanaka (ez07...@dilbert.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
> >
> > > > Re: Why do Japanese look up to Americans (or whites)?
>
> Bigger eyes make it easier and faster to show expressions.So we draw animals
> like dogs and cats with big eyes and
> we draw humans with big eyes. animation requires lotsa of drawing
> so you have to do alot of them very quickly. even the people
> who are japanese in japanese cartoon have big eyes if they
> are a main character who has to be drawn with alot of facial expressions.
> making the european is a side issue. Drawing lots of
> cartoon frames is the bigger issue for the animator - bigger
> eyes make it easier to show emotions. You can use the
> voice actor to also show emotions - but that quality
> may get lost when the anime is dubbed. .
>
walter lee
I have found a flower in the fire and ashes. (^_^)