JOY LUCK CLUB: and Asian Women
Shiu Wong
>Being an Asian (not an American Asian. Geez, forget those PC craps), I sort of
>resented this movie when I sat in theater crowded with teary people. Most part
>of this movie sunk into exaggerated soap opera.
I have the same feeling too.
>There are more in Asian women than respectable, devoted, suffering mothers and
>wives.
Well. One girl (can't remember her name...) in JLC was named "The Most
Beautiful Women" by the People magazine. Oh please. I think since JLC
didn't get an oscar, someone decided to give it a consolation prize...
If they want to include Asian women on their pathetic list, please look
carefully. Haven't anyone ever heard of Gong Li?
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
>(Chiung-
>
> If they want to include Asian women on their pathetic list, please
>look
> carefully. Haven't anyone ever heard of Gong Li?
She was in the 'People' list either last year or the year before. Personally,
I don't think she is all that beautiful. Handsome, perhaps. But we all look
the same to them, anyway, I suppose.
>- S.K.
Peace.
Steve Wei
Keith Meng-Wei Loh
>In article <2pu6k7$7...@news.u.washington.edu> chi...@u.washington.edu (Chiung-I Hwang) writes:
>>Being an Asian (not an American Asian. Geez, forget those PC craps), I sort of
>>resented this movie when I sat in theater crowded with teary people. Most part
>>of this movie sunk into exaggerated soap opera.
> I have the same feeling too.
>
>>There are more in Asian women than respectable, devoted, suffering mothers and
>>wives.
> Well. One girl (can't remember her name...) in JLC was named "The Most
> Beautiful Women" by the People magazine. Oh please. I think since JLC
> didn't get an oscar, someone decided to give it a consolation prize...
Though this is not to suggest an evil conspiracy, why shouldn't one of Tamlyn
Tomita, Rosalind Chao, etc., appear on the rolls of the star studded? Call
it equal opportunity dreck. I seem to recall John Lone (THE LAST EMPEROR, ICEMAN) appearing on some magazines as a stud. How can you tell if it is tokenism?
> If they want to include Asian women on their pathetic list, please look
> carefully. Haven't anyone ever heard of Gong Li?
While I would say that Gong Li is possibly one of the most beautiful screen
goddesses today, she has played quite a few suffering females who have to
put up with oppressive situations. Granted, her characters are a little
rounder than the assembly of wives & girlfriends in THE JOY LUCK CLUB, but
the JLC was an ensemble piece so we have no basis of comparison. Any
one of Zhang Yimou's films are incomparably better to Wayne Wang's JLC,
but I am not as harsh on it as this backlash seems to show.
--
"Believe those who are seeking truth; doubt those who find it." --
Andre Gide / Keith Loh / l...@sfu.ca / graduated and going back to
school / Burnaby, British Columbia / ask me for the poem of the week!
R Todd King
: Well. One girl (can't remember her name...) in JLC was named "The Most
: Beautiful Women" by the People magazine. Oh please...
:
: If they want to include Asian women on their pathetic list, please look
: carefully. Haven't anyone ever heard of Gong Li?
Absolutely! I first saw her in "The Story of Qiu Ju" (which just came out on
laserdisc) and I was impressed. But when I saw her in "Ju Dou", "Raise the Red
Lantern" and especially in "Red Sorghum", I became totally enamored with her.
Hollywood is becoming more aware of her, but she has no intention of leaving
China or following in Joan Chen's footsteps, so unfortunately she will be
admired only by a few in this country. BTW, if anyone knows if/how I can get
"Red Sorghum" subtitled on laserdisc, please let me know. (I'd rather not pay
$80 for the video!)
--
===============================================================================
R. Todd King |
tk...@kaiwan.com |
===============================================================================
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
says:
>
>: > If they want to include Asian women on their pathetic list, please
>: >look
>: > carefully. Haven't anyone ever heard of Gong Li?
>: She was in the 'People' list either last year or the year before.
>Personally,
>
>: I don't think she is all that beautiful. Handsome, perhaps. But we all look
>: the same to them, anyway, I suppose.
>
> This sounds as though you are so bitter that you have closed your
> eyes. Gong Li brings looks, energy, and apparent intelligence
> to her characters. So many people think she is beautiful, at least
> on the screen. Possibly as you typed your posting, at the next
It's a matter of taste, don't you agree? Personally, I don't think she's
drop-dead gorgeous by any means. Though her energy, intelligence, and
talent are beyond question.
> workstation was someone just as attractive in her individual way
> and who wanted to ask you something. But you didn't see...
I'm not talking about her beauty as a person. I don't actually know Gong
Li. I'm just talking about physical beauty. Certainly there are many
kinds of beauty -- all equally valid.
> I generally read your posts over time - do you really mean this
> 'we all look the same' bit or are you just having a bad terminal
> day?
When the white media drools over Connie Chung, Kristi Yamaguchi, Gong Li,
and Joan Chen -- all somewhat normal looking women, I begin to have my
doubts -- and begin to think whether stereotypes held about sensuality
and exoticness of Asian women are clouding their eyesight.
Don't get me wrong. There are some extremely beautiful Asian women out
there. A helluva lot. But sometimes it seems to me that non-Asian people
think Asian women are beautiful simply because they are *Asian* and not
because they are beautiful. If that makes sense.
> Hugh
Peace.
Steve Wei
Firman Hadi
: When the white media drools over Connie Chung, Kristi Yamaguchi, Gong Li,
: and Joan Chen -- all somewhat normal looking women, I begin to have my
: doubts -- and begin to think whether stereotypes held about sensuality
: and exoticness of Asian women are clouding their eyesight.
I'm Asian and IMHO these women, *are* beautiful. You can be sure that my
eyesight is not "clouded" with this exotic oriental stuff. If some people
think that Asian women are beautiful because they are Asian, well then
that's their problem.
Anyway, I wonder where this stereotype of Asian women being "exotic and
mysterious" came from, since there's absolutely nothing remotely
mysterious about my sisters and my girlfriend. I also think that JLC does
not reinforce this stereotype, or does it?
--
Firman Hadi
Live from New York
fh...@nyx.cs.du.edu - Just a Rollerblader on the information superhighway
The Enchanted Nrock
^^^^^^^^^^^^~~~~^^^^^^^^
Ya know Steve, no offense at all, but for all your rantings about racism and
stereotyping.... do I need to finish this sentence?
--Nrock
Hsu Weilin
: Don't get me wrong. There are some extremely beautiful Asian women out
: there. A helluva lot. But sometimes it seems to me that non-Asian people
Thanks for the compliment, but seriously a french accent is considered
sophisticated. A lot of people have the weird idea that a person with
this *wonderful* accent *is* infact sophisticated. The fact is people
do this all the time. They make generalizations about others. They
get mind sets that are difficult to overcome. But you are correct, some
men (non-asian) have a pre-set idea of *asian* beauty.
Weilin (wish I had time to read all this stuff).
: think Asian women are beautiful simply because they are *Asian* and not
Zhiqi Zuo
>> If they want to include Asian women on their pathetic list, please look
>> carefully. Haven't anyone ever heard of Gong Li?
>Actually Gong Li was in one of the "Most Beautiful People" lists. I can't
>remember off the top of my head if it was People Magazine or US.
She might be the most popular actress nowdays in China. Among the Most
beautiful People? For the roles in those overly tradgic films? How many
people really like the personalities of the women in the films, and also
like her look, to the point of saying "Wow, the beautiful woman I have ever
seen!"?
Few men can even dare to ask the kind of "women" to "marry me" in the
modern times. :-) The films may enhance the stereotypes of the Chinese
outside China. This may be the second most important contributions to
the arts, being next to the filming skills.
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
>
>SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu wrote:
>: Don't get me wrong. There are some extremely beautiful Asian women out
>: there. A helluva lot. But sometimes it seems to me that non-Asian people
>
>Thanks for the compliment, but seriously a french accent is considered
>sophisticated. A lot of people have the weird idea that a person with
>this *wonderful* accent *is* infact sophisticated. The fact is people
>do this all the time. They make generalizations about others. They
>get mind sets that are difficult to overcome. But you are correct, some
>men (non-asian) have a pre-set idea of *asian* beauty.
It's a fact. It happens a lot. That doesn't make it any less wrong, does
it?
>Weilin (wish I had time to read all this stuff).
Peace.
Steve Wei
Tingli Pan
Mark Mavromatis <out...@doc.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>In article <2puj10$f...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
>Shiu Wong <sh...@cae.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>
>> If they want to include Asian women on their pathetic list, please look
>> carefully. Haven't anyone ever heard of Gong Li?
>>
>
>remember off the top of my head if it was People Magazine or US.
I saw her in People Magazine, with a full red dress.
Tingli Pan
IRA SMAILER
: >> If they want to include Asian women on their pathetic list, please look
: >> carefully. Haven't anyone ever heard of Gong Li?
: >Actually Gong Li was in one of the "Most Beautiful People" lists. I can't
: >remember off the top of my head if it was People Magazine or US.
: She might be the most popular actress nowdays in China. Among the Most
: beautiful People? For the roles in those overly tradgic films? How many
What has her beauty to do with her roles, "tradgic" or otherwise?
: people really like the personalities of the women in the films, and also
: like her look, to the point of saying "Wow, the beautiful woman I have ever
: seen!"?
: Few men can even dare to ask the kind of "women" to "marry me" in the
: modern times. :-)
Don't worry, you won't ever have the chance anyway :-)
Besides, Gong Li is not exactly "available" being attached to Zhang Yimou :-)
Ira
Zhiqi Zuo
>Zhiqi Zuo (zz...@iastate.edu) wrote:
>
>
>: >> If they want to include Asian women on their pathetic list, please look
>: >> carefully. Haven't anyone ever heard of Gong Li?
>
>
>: >Actually Gong Li was in one of the "Most Beautiful People" lists. I can't
>: >remember off the top of my head if it was People Magazine or US.
>
>
>: She might be the most popular actress nowdays in China. Among the Most
>: beautiful People? For the roles in those overly tradgic films? How many
>
>What has her beauty to do with her roles, "tradgic" or otherwise?
This was exactly what bothered :-) me. I assume that her playing the roles
might be the only deciding factor to make her to be among the MBPs. So I
was talking about the behaviors of the roles.
I was not questioning her beauty, I want to question others' and prove
that some more beautiful women deserve the title for their talents(yet
they are ignored :). :-)
>: people really like the personalities of the women in the films, and also
>: like her look, to the point of saying "Wow, the beautiful woman I have ever
>: seen!"?
>
>
>: Few men can even dare to ask the kind of "women" to "marry me" in the
>: modern times. :-)
>
>Don't worry, you won't ever have the chance anyway :-)
>Besides, Gong Li is not exactly "available" being attached to Zhang Yimou :-)
I was not talking about Gong Li herself, but the kind of women in the films
that I don't have many chances to find at our time, IF I wanted to.
As Gong Li is concerned, Zhang Yimou should be the one who is worried,
why I? :-)
>
>Ira
>
>
Michael Park
>Anyway, I wonder where this stereotype of Asian women being "exotic and
>mysterious" came from, since there's absolutely nothing remotely
>mysterious about my sisters and my girlfriend. I also think that JLC does
>not reinforce this stereotype, or does it?
JLC doesn't reinforce the stereotypes in question, but in perpetuates
many others. That's probably why that Asiaphile Oliver Stone made the
movie. Because it reinforces the Asian male inferiority stereotype, and
the white male savior stereotype.
Peace--
MP
LIE HANS
Michael Park <asi...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>fh...@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Firman Hadi) writes:
>>mysterious about my sisters and my girlfriend. I also think that JLC does
>>not reinforce this stereotype, or does it?
>
>JLC doesn't reinforce the stereotypes in question, but in perpetuates
>many others. That's probably why that Asiaphile Oliver Stone made the
>movie. Because it reinforces the Asian male inferiority stereotype, and
>the white male savior stereotype.
>
>Peace--
I wouldn't go that far about Oliver Stone. I know that attitude
prevails in Hollywood but that's probably more of a function that
there are more male white screen writers and authors. I'm sure that
if there were more asian screen writers and authors, there would
be more examples of the opposite happening.
As for Oliver Stone, HE's A GOOF. Anyone who can believe all the
JFK Conspiracy CRAP and make such pathetic GARBAGE as JFK and
Born of the Forth of July can only BE A GOOF!!!
Katherine Pak
: JLC doesn't reinforce the stereotypes in question, but in perpetuates
: many others. That's probably why that Asiaphile Oliver Stone made the
: movie. Because it reinforces the Asian male inferiority stereotype, and
***********************************************************
: the white male savior stereotype.
How so? Those Chinese men were atrocious! I think it was part of Amy Tan's
story, as well as Su Tong's story (I'm currently reading Raise The Red
Lanturn, though I have as yet to see the film). I don't think the white
males in the film JLC (daughters' husbands) were portrayed as male saviors:
one guy was a bumbling fool (Tamlyn's guy) and the other a wimp (Rosalind
Chao's guy). I thought the film followed the book rather closely (though
it has been *many* moons since I'd read it...but at least it captured the
mood of the book. Perhaps because Ms. Tan had a pretty close involvement.
Not all Asian male in Asia are as horrible as those portrayed in JLC or
RTRL. It is a known fact that women in Asia are not treated *well* (that
is a euphemism for sure). And I think it needs to be shown in order to
help change that behavior in *those* Asian men.
Perhaps you meant this: Since there aren't many films about Asian men,
there needs to be more made that show positive images of Asian
men. If you meant this, I can't help but totally agree with you.
kat
:-)
Joan Shields
>: She might be the most popular actress nowdays in China. Among the Most
>: beautiful People? For the roles in those overly tradgic films? How many
RA SMAILER (sma...@twain.ucs.umass.edu) asks:
>What has her beauty to do with her roles, "tradgic" or otherwise?
Why, Ira, didn't you know that a woman's worth is measured solely on her
beauty and desirability? Honey, anything past that is a freak of nature
and unnessesary especially if the girl has big breasts.
:P
joan
(and do I wish I were joking about the above)
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
>
>Quick JLC Trivia: Who said this quote:
> " Oh, You'll have fun....."
>
>That's right!!!!! That is the famous line said by the only positive
>Asian American male role in JLC.
I knew that! I knew that!
>For the record, I don't think June's father raped anyone. However, for
>every other male in JLC.....I dunno.
Yeah, but he was completely asexual, as well. The basic Mr. Miyagi nice
old oriental man who imparts his ancient wisdom upon others.
>D TUng
Peace.
Steve Wei
Julian L Chan
Personally, I HATE big breasts.
Julian
IRA SMAILER
: >Zhiqi Zuo (zz...@iastate.edu) wrote:
: >: She might be the most popular actress nowdays in China. Among the Most
: >: beautiful People? For the roles in those overly tradgic films? How many
: IRA SMAILER (sma...@twain.ucs.umass.edu) asks:
: >What has her beauty to do with her roles, "tradgic" or otherwise?
: Why, Ira, didn't you know that a woman's worth is measured solely on her
: beauty and desirability? Honey, anything past that is a freak of nature
: and unnessesary especially if the girl has big breasts.
Aaaaaaaaaaaah! I'm so happy to know that! Now I don't need to waste
any more time in school... that is.... *looking down at chest* hmmmm...
Ira
: joan
dlt...@csupomona.edu
> Michael Park (asi...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>
> : JLC doesn't reinforce the stereotypes in question, but in perpetuates
> : many others. That's probably why that Asiaphile Oliver Stone made the
> : movie. Because it reinforces the Asian male inferiority stereotype, and
> ***********************************************************
> : the white male savior stereotype.
>
> How so? Those Chinese men were atrocious! I think it was part of Amy Tan's
> story, as well as Su Tong's story (I'm currently reading Raise The Red
> Lanturn, though I have as yet to see the film). I don't think the white
> males in the film JLC (daughters' husbands) were portrayed as male saviors:
> one guy was a bumbling fool (Tamlyn's guy) and the other a wimp (Rosalind
> Chao's guy). I thought the film followed the book rather closely (though
> it has been *many* moons since I'd read it...but at least it captured the
> mood of the book. Perhaps because Ms. Tan had a pretty close involvement.
I would have to disagree that the caucasian men were portrayed as poorly as
you claim. "Tamlyn's guy" was portrayed as an outsider. His only true
inadequacy was in not being able to handle chopsticks, and not knowing
the subtleties involved in Asian Culture. He was portrayed as generous.
ie. The fur coat. Kind and loving, I believe Tamlyn states something
to this effect when she compares him to her Ex. husband. McCarthy's character
was anything but a wimp. He stood up to his parents. He was successful.
His main problem was with his wifes inability to make a decision. Again,
hardly a negative portrayal. The fault was with the woman not the man.
(please note that I am mereley citing the way these characters were portrayed
not stating opinion as to how it should be) As to them being saviors.
Tamlyn's man
(richard?) was her second husband after her "disastrous" marriage with
an Asian man. Chao's Guy (Andrew McCarthy?) wouldn't settle for
a weak woman..He was initially attracted to her strength, and when she became
"chickenshit" ( her words not mine) he found it unacceptable. It was this
that triggered her reversion back to her stronger/better self. These strike
me as pretty apparent examples of White savior mentality.
Perhaps I'm being a bit sensitive about this. I admit that the Chao charcters
link to white saviorism is a bit weak, but when this is coupled the character
change of Harold Livotny to Harold (fill in asian name here). A switch
in the race of the antagonistic stingy husban kinda lends credibility to
the desire for positive portrayals og Caucasians,a dn negative portrayals
of Asian Males.
Well, maybe a little bitter *grin*
> Not all Asian male in Asia are as horrible as those portrayed in JLC or
> RTRL. It is a known fact that women in Asia are not treated *well* (that
> is a euphemism for sure). And I think it needs to be shown in order to
> help change that behavior in *those* Asian men.
True, not all Asian males are that bad. That's a gross generality. So too
however, are that all asian women are treated poorly. Perhaps you are right
in that *those* Asian men need to be taught. In the same way that the
squeaky wheel gets the grease, so too Asian Jerks get all the attention,
but portraying nearly all Asian males as rapists, wife beaters, cheapskates,
or just plain lousy husbands. Isn't that throwing a little too much grease
on those who don't deserve it.
>
> Perhaps you meant this: Since there aren't many films about Asian men,
> there needs to be more made that show positive images of Asian
> men. If you meant this, I can't help but totally agree with you.
Thanks Kat!!!! To which I would like to note the choice of Champions
*****Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story*******
Hopefully, this movie wasn't too detrimental to the AA women stereotype.
The waitress was portrayed as a bit of slut (please forgive my choice of
words) However, the kind, progressive, fair, and insightful owner of the
restaurant does make up for it. She did after all have more lines.
>
> kat
>
> :-)
>
Quick JLC Trivia: Who said this quote:
" Oh, You'll have fun....."
That's right!!!!! That is the famous line said by the only positive
Asian American male role in JLC.
For the record, I don't think June's father raped anyone. However, for
every other male in JLC.....I dunno.
D TUng
Zhiqi Zuo
>...It is a known fact that women in Asia are not treated *well* (that
>is a euphemism for sure). And I think it needs to be shown in order to
>help change that behavior in *those* Asian men...
This is a mixture of a GENERAL steretype and a GENERAL situation, but
not a known fact. Women are not treated well GENERALLY in America. But
I can't just say that women in America are not treated well so those
men in Asia should be taught some manners, can I?
Almost all young women in the cities of China are having jobs as men. Most
husbands are sharing housework(cooking, cleaning, etc.) with the wives.
More and more women are becoming professionals. More than half of the
physicians, more than half linguistics and literature students, and
the ovberwhelming majority of students in medicine schools in China are
females. The modern value is to treat women equal. Women "liberation"
movement started on a large scale of the Chinese society since 1920's. The
strong calls for the equality continued until discriminations against women
were not "justfully" acceptable by young generations by early 1970's. The
most obvious discriminations against women can still be found in some
isolated areas, but they are not generally conducted though in some cases
they can be very subtle. If a man is having a fight with a women, a concept
is that "A gentleman doesn't fight with a woman." I couldn't follow this
unequal :-) rule very well in some rare cases. Most men still expect women
to be gentle, but once liberated :-) the modern Chinese women can't rarely
be so. Girls in schools can be very aggressive. Many of the top students in my
schools were females. But husbands generally are expected to do better
than wives. Women are not supposed to be stopped when they are making their
own progresses, though the real situations from some old thinkings may
affect many of them in more indirect ways. Women officials are supposed
to be accounting more than 40% on county levels, but it may take another
20 years for the central administration to reach the percentage. Girls can
go to colleges with slightly lower scores...
The real improvement in women's status is explained to have a lot to do with
the fact that many women are having jobs.
[To present a balanced picture is not easy.]
Although the general situation is not favorable to women, many Chinese men
are not discriminating at all, and are very positive to women. Younger
generations are having much better attitudes towards women. Sometimes we
dislike some women because they don't treat us well/equally, even when they
are treated with flowers and many great helps. :-) Many of us can definitely
say the following to your attitude:"Thanks, I don't need the help, I want to
help." So, you know, Asian men can help Asian women too. As for Asian
Americans, they also have the pride and the ability to help their mothers and
sisters get better treatments, it must be hurting for them that the
good-behaved men had to be some whites in the movies.
Rowena Young
>Personally, I HATE big breasts.
>
>
> Julian
Then I won't go get that breast augmentation surgery I have
schduled for tomorrow :)
-Rowena
Adam Neil Villani
I agree--- a much more deserved award for Gong Li would be Best Actress, not
most beautiful in the world. She may be good-looking, but she's no Amy Yip,
who in turn shouldn't get a Best Actress nomination of any sort.
Meg Ryan... sez who????
---------------------
Adam Villani
ad...@cco.caltech.edu
Geography Trivia: State with highest average county area: Arizona
--
Disclaimer: Everything I say conforms exactly to Caltech's official
position on the subject, whatever it may be.
Flipper
> >beauty and desirability? Honey, anything past that is a freak of nature
> >and unnessesary especially if the girl has big breasts.
> Personally, I HATE big breasts.
>
>
> Julian
>
??????
In article <2q9027$8...@nic.umass.edu>, sma...@twain.ucs.umass.edu (IRA
SMAILER) wrote:
> Aaaaaaaaaaaah! I'm so happy to know that! Now I don't need to waste
> any more time in school... that is.... *looking down at chest* hmmmm...
>
> Ira
>
!!!!!!
flipper ;)
> >
> >:P
Shih Fong Chia
Ira, there is no fun playing with silicon. It might deflate one day.:P
Mark S.
--
* All thoughts, all passions, all delights, | Mark Fong Chia Shih *
* Whatever stirs this mortal frame, | ms...@acsu.buffalo.edu *
* All are but ministers of Love, |==========================*
* And feed his sacred flame. |==========================*
IRA SMAILER
: jo...@med.unc.edu (Joan Shields) writes:
: >>Zhiqi Zuo (zz...@iastate.edu) wrote:
: >>: She might be the most popular actress nowdays in China. Among the Most
: >>: beautiful People? For the roles in those overly tradgic films? How many
: >IRA SMAILER (sma...@twain.ucs.umass.edu) asks:
: >>What has her beauty to do with her roles, "tradgic" or otherwise?
: >Why, Ira, didn't you know that a woman's worth is measured solely on her
: >beauty and desirability? Honey, anything past that is a freak of nature
: >and unnessesary especially if the girl has big breasts.
: Ira, there is no fun playing with silicon. It might deflate one day.:P
Mark, I know. And anyway, I'd have no desire to look like Amy Yip :-)
Ira
: Mark S.