I'm beginning to see the trend of more and more asian women dating white men.

[Simon Lee]

I don't know if this is only happening in New York City, but within the last
couple of years, I'm beginning to see more and more asian women dating or
marrying white men. On the other hand, I don't see any asian men dating
asian women. In fact, there was one time when I was trying to prove this
point to my girlfriend(she's chinese) at south street seeport(a popular hang
out for young chinese people), we sat there for half an hour and this is
what we saw:

We saw 14 asian women dating white men (in two cases, blacks).
Only one asian man was with a white woman(and she's ugly and fat).

Of those white men, they usually look twice as old as the women, and most of
them just aren't very good looking and those asian women are usually very
good looking, they could've done a lot better.

What's up with this?
PS: I have nothing against asian women, in fact, I have seen a lot of asian
women dating asian guys, BUT ONLY IN CHINATOWN.

[slant_eyed_louie]

Well, guess it shows there ain't nobody wants any of us gook-boys!

Asia sista wanna white-boy??

Ain't no thing, cuz ain't got no time......

[Cthulhu]

In article <783mgj$t5l$2...@news01.li.net>, the_ni...@rocketmail.com
says...

> I don't know if this is only happening in New York City, but within the last
> couple of years, I'm beginning to see more and more asian women dating or
> marrying white men. On the other hand, I don't see any asian men dating
> asian women. In fact, there was one time when I was trying to prove this
> point to my girlfriend(she's chinese) at south street seeport(a popular hang
> out for young chinese people), we sat there for half an hour and this is
> what we saw:
>
> We saw 14 asian women dating white men (in two cases, blacks).
> Only one asian man was with a white woman(and she's ugly and fat).
>
> Of those white men, they usually look twice as old as the women, and most of
> them just aren't very good looking and those asian women are usually very
> good looking, they could've done a lot better.
>
> What's up with this?
> PS: I have nothing against asian women, in fact, I have seen a lot of asian
> women dating asian guys, BUT ONLY IN CHINATOWN.
>

Looks like a troll to me.

Cth

[Walter Lee]

Simon Lee wrote:

I don't know if this is only happening in New York City, but within the last
couple of years, I'm beginning to see more and more asian women dating or
marrying white men.

this is a nationwide trend and it has been documented by the US Censussince the 1960's.   I  repost some stats for you...

( view using fixed width 8 )
=============================================================================================
going to
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/interrace.html
we see... a link to ...

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/interractab1.txt
and it says...

============================================================================

Table 1.  Race of Wife by Race of Husband:  1960, 1970, 1980, 1991, and 1992

Source:  U.S. Bureau of the Census
Internet Release date: 06/10/98
 

(Numbers in thousands)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                |        Census         |Current Population Survey|      Percent Distribution
                                |                       |                         |----------------------------------
                                |  1960    1970    1980 |     1991       1992     | 1960   1970   1980   1991   1992
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  All married-couples........... 40,491  44,598  49,514     53,227     53,512      100.0  100.0  100.0  100.0  100.0

RACE
Same race couples............... 40,334  44,276  48,516     50,813     50,873       99.6   99.3   98.0   95.5   95.1
  White/White................... 37,072  40,578  43,568     47,294     47,358       91.9   91.6   92.7   93.1   93.1
  Black/Black...................  3,033   3,344   3,418      3,519      3,515        7.5    7.6    7.0    6.9    6.9

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Amer. Indian/Amer. Indian 1/..     63      77     119         NA         NA        0.2    0.2    0.2     NA     NA
  Asian & Pacific/API  2/.......    148     230     398         NA         NA        0.4    0.5    0.8     NA     NA
  Other race/Other..............     18      46   1,013         NA         NA        0.0    0.1    2.1     NA     NA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interracial couples 3/..........    157     321     997        994      1,161        0.4    0.7    2.0    1.9    2.2
  Black/White...................     51      65     121        231        246       32.7   20.2   12.1   23.2   21.2
   Black husband/White wife.....     25      41      94        156        163       49.6   63.6   77.4   67.5   66.3
   White husband/Black wife.....     26      24      27         75         83       50.4   36.4   22.6   32.5   33.7
  American Indian/White.........     29      85     245         NA         NA       18.7   26.4   24.6     NA     NA
   American Indian husband/
     White wife.................     12      40     121         NA         NA       41.0   47.1   49.4     NA     NA
   White husband/American
     Indian wife................     17      45     124         NA         NA       59.0   52.9   50.6     NA     NA

**drydem** check this out... 13:5 by 1980  by  1990  data is not computed (but they do it for blacks/white!) why?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Asian and Pacific Islander/
   White........................     47      96     181         NA         NA       30.0   29.9   18.2     NA     NA
     API husband/White wife.....     18      33      52         NA         NA       38.4   34.1   28.7     NA     NA
     White husband/API wife.....     29      63     129         NA         NA       61.6   65.9   71.3     NA     NA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Other race/White..............     14      52     358         NA         NA        8.7   16.2   35.9     NA     NA
     Other race husband/White
       wife.....................      5      22     165         NA         NA       34.2   41.6   46.1     NA     NA
     White husband/other race
       wife.....................      9      30     194         NA         NA       65.8   58.4   54.2     NA     NA
  Other race/specified race 4/..     15      23      92      1,420      1,478        9.9    7.3    9.2    2.7    2.8

Interracial as percent of all
 marriages......................    0.4     0.7     2.0        1.9        2.2          X      X      X      X      X
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.  Includes Eskimo and Aleut for 1980, 1991, and 1992.

2.  The Asian and Pacific Islander category includes persons who identified as Japanese, Chinese, and Filipino on the
    race item only.
3.  Includes the number of Black and White interracial couples shown, the number of White and "Other race" and Black
    and "Other race" couples excluding those with a Black or White partner not shown separately, and the number of
    "Other race/specified race" couples shown.
4.  "Other race" includes all other persons not included in the "White," "Black," "American Indian, Eskimo, or Aleut,"
    and the "Asian or Pacific Islander" race categories not shown separately.  For 1960 through 1980, the "Other
    race/Other race" category includes cases where both spouses are either American Indian, Eskimo or Aleut, Asian or
    Pacific Islander, or Other race, but are not of the same race.  The "other race" includes Hispanic persons who
    reported "Other race" in the race item.
 
NA Not applicable

NOTE: Data for 1991 and 1992 are based on the Current Population Survey.  All other data are based on the decennial
      census.

SOURCE: U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1960, 1970, and 1980 Subject Reports on Marital Status and 1991 and 1992 Current
        Population Reports, P20, nos. 461 and 468.
 
 

================================================================================================================

found at url.... http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/interractab2.txt

Table 2. Race of Couples: 1990                                          6/22/94

SOURCE:  U.S. Bureau of the Census
Internet Release date: 06/10/98

(Universe is householder and spouse or partner)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                American
                                                                                  Indian     Asian and
                                                                              Eskimo and       Pacific         Other
                                         Total         White         Black         Aleut      Islander          race
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Total 1/.....................   51,475,834    45,603,184     3,566,986       473,348     1,619,665     1,586,229
     Percent.....................        100.0         100.0         100.0         100.0         100.0         100.0

Same race couples................   49,981,984    44,229,606     3,308,718       124,715     1,133,959     1,184,986
 Percent.........................         97.1          97.0          92.8          26.4          70.0          74.7

**drydem** estimating api/white interracial couples = 28% for 1994
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+------------+------------
  Interracial couples:                                                                     |            |
Specified group and White........    1,373,578     1,373,578       206,374       334,143   |   465,332  |    367,729
 Percent.........................          2.7           3.0           5.8          70.6   |      28.7  |       23.2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+------------+------------
Specified race group and Other
 race groups 2/..................      120,147            NA        51,894        14,490        20,374        33,514
  Percent........................          0.2            NA           1.5           3.1           1.3           2.1
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  The cell value for specified race group and White for Whites should not be include in either the row
       or overall total.

NA Not applicable

1.  Includes all same race couples and all couples involving the specified race group and Whites, and couples
    involving a male of the specified race group and a female from one of the other race groups.

2.  Includes all other race groups except Whites and the specified group, classified by the race of the male
    partner.
 

Source: 1990 Census of Population and Housing, Public Use Microdata Samples.

========
 
 

[EasternHero]

What the hell is a 'troll'?

Cthulhu wrote in message ...

>In article <783mgj$t5l$2...@news01.li.net>, the_ni...@rocketmail.com
>says...

>> I don't know if this is only happening in New York City, but within the
last
>> couple of years, I'm beginning to see more and more asian women dating or

[dragon...@my-dejanews.com]

This is the symptom of a deeper problem we Asian face culturally. What are
we doing in terms of assimilating into the new world culture? Are we still so
hung up on ourselves? How about each of us offer the best our culture and
ethnicity can offer with pride and treat all like how we want to be treated.
Asian American women are finally surpassing the guys in these and the end
result is more and more of them are tired of waiting around for the the guys
to stop sulking and go out and kick some butt. Notice how self assured Asian
guys are hot commodities amongst Asian women.

Cheers :-)

Visit http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bridge/8805/

Where you can discuss or Chat live about the state of our Chinese
culture

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

[dangit]

South Street Seaport and especially NYC ain't the center of the
Universe.

You need to broaden your horizons.

As for "ugly, fat" women, you better take a look in the mirror before
you judge, Don Juan.

[mst]

dragon...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<785q3s$779$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

>This is the symptom of a deeper problem we Asian face culturally. What are
>we doing in terms of assimilating into the new world culture? Are we still
so
>hung up on ourselves? How about each of us offer the best our culture and
>ethnicity can offer with pride and treat all like how we want to be
treated.
>Asian American women are finally surpassing the guys in these and the end
>result is more and more of them are tired of waiting around for the the
guys
>to stop sulking and go out and kick some butt. Notice how self assured
Asian
>guys are hot commodities amongst Asian women.

A refreshing pov, instead of blaming the women for their dissatisfaction,
let's look at WHY they're dissatisfied. It's a shame so few Asian men are
willing to ask that question. But I don't think simply "kicking butt" is
going to solve that problem. The self-assuredness you advocate must also be
tempered with respect for women, and the ability to treat us as equals.

Asian American males must acknowledge the traditional sexism that exists in
our cultures and be willing to GIVE UP THE PRIVILEGES that those biases
afford them within the family structure before we can reasonably address the
anger that many Asian American women feel towards them.

The problem is, in the meantime, far too many Asian American women have been
conned into thinking that "American" men are somehow less sexist. Less
blatantly perhaps, definitely less vocal, but there's still a good deal of
gender bias in our supposedly democratic nation...let's try not to forget
that.

--
Teri
++++
"Well, since you got here by not thinking, it seems reasonable
to expect that, in order to get out, you must start thinking."
Tock the Watchdog

[moo shu guy]

In article <HHAp2.906$qW5...@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>,
"mst" <ter...@home.com> wrote:

> Asian American males must acknowledge the traditional sexism that exists in
> our cultures and be willing to GIVE UP THE PRIVILEGES that those biases
> afford them within the family structure before we can reasonably address the
> anger that many Asian American women feel towards them.

well, i guess i need to be enlightened about what priveleges i must give up.
i can only think of one that occurred in my family structure, namely that my
parents were overprotective towards my sister, using the excuse "well, girls
are easier targets for perverts"- maybe there are gay rapists too, but
they're far fewer, and with the supposed stat of 1 in 5 women raped in their
lifetime, is this an unreasonable concern? this "reasoning"/excuse is not at
all alien to families of other races, and within the small sampling of asian
families that a lot of people experience, perhaps girls feel unusually
persecuted/restricted, since they don't hear a lot of asian girls getting
totally free reign, whereas they hear about some (or many) of other colors
getting "freedom". the actual percentage of "liberated" other girls may not
be that much bigger than for asian girls (although i bet it's probably
somewhat bigger), but the absolute number (not %) of others that are
liberated colors the perception that it's the fault of asian culture more
than it deserves, whereas a comparison with any immigrant culture (including
europeans) may reveal similar patterns.

as for other things like helping with chores like washing dishes and whatnot,
i had no priveleges to give up, plus i got the joyous job of hauling the
trash. my sister got to sew, but i have to wonder how much of a chore that
was since now that she's on her own she does it herself.

> The problem is, in the meantime, far too many Asian American women have been
> conned into thinking that "American" men are somehow less sexist. Less
> blatantly perhaps, definitely less vocal, but there's still a good deal of
> gender bias in our supposedly democratic nation...let's try not to forget
> that.

yes, totally agree. the younger asian american men that i know tend to err,
too much in the other direction, in part i think because of this
overscrutiny. or maybe i err too much in that direction and don't surround
myself with guys who are too much unlike me, i.e. "typical sexist asian guy".
although i can think of precious few who are openly sexist more than usual,
even in situations only among guys. sexism that might be "normal" in
"american" guys is blamed on the being asian. so some of us run as far away
as possible in the other direction just to avoid that perception. the end
result is a polarized view of asian men. the men staying "normally" sexist
perceived as hypersexist, the others being perceived as being wimpy, rather
than endearingly sensitive.

maybe it improves as women get older, but by that time, all the cute ones are
already married off. doh! what a sexist pig!

msg

[My View]

>Of those white men, they usually look twice as old as the women, and most of
>them just aren't very good looking and those asian women are usually very
>good looking, they could've done a lot better.

Hope i don't get lynched here. Just voicing my 'own' pesonal views.

I don't think we should really blame the asian women you describe, for
dating white men.
They probably feel that the average asian male is not worthy of their
attention.
I can't speak for the majority, but from what i have seen through my
past travels.
The women don't have an awful lot to pick from, when it comes down to
looks.
In case your wondering. I am a asian male myself.
I just hope that by the time i finish my degree, there will still be a
few females left in this world to accept me for what i am.
An average asian guy.

[My View]

Before you get the impression that i was just putting down my own race
in my former email.
I would also like to add that us asian men have many advantages over our
western counterparts.
But then again i don't suppose those asian girls i was refering to
before will never ever find out.
Their life i suppose.

[Simon Lee]

I know South Street Seaport is not the center of the Universe, that is why I
posted "I don't know if this is only happening in New York City" in the
original message. I'm just trying to find out if this is true outside of
NYC. Please learn to read and try understand the message before you reply.
Thanks.

dangit wrote in message <36A678BE...@concentric.net>...

[Simon Lee]

I agree with you, the problem is really with both asian men and women.
While most asian male tend to be very shy, and they're encouraged (due to
the traditional family) NOT to date until they're done with school. By the
time you're able to date, you're already 4 years behind the white guys in
terms of dating exprience. Plus while you're studying so hard for mom and
dad, you obviously had little time to workout, get in shape, learn to do fun
stuff like partying till morning. End result? You look like a nerd, acts
like a geek and you're not smooth with women either. Lets face it, women
like to be with someone who is fun to be with. By the time you're getting
women because you now have money, MOST of the good ones are already taken
obviously.

Meanwhile, asian women pick up on this also and thinks all asian male are
just no fun to be with. I have met asian women who just don't wants to talk
to you because you're oriental. (And I hang out with white people all the
time).

Men, do something about it before it's too late, go to the gym, update your
look and please don't be shy with women, go up and ask, that's how all white
guys get our women while you guys are standing at the corner telling your
equally shy friends about how good that asian girl looks. I did my part,
but I can only convert one asian female. Please help.

My View wrote in message <36A7970A...@yahoo.com>...

[CBall]

>"Simon Lee" <the_ni...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

Do all the good ones all of a sudden stop being born?? NOT. Asian
males have an advantage that at age 30 they still look quite young
where white males at 30 look quite old.

> By the time you're getting women because you now have money, MOST of
> the good ones are already taken obviously.

The problem with some asian males is that they do not take care of
themselves and wash their hair and brush their teeth.

>Meanwhile, asian women pick up on this also and thinks all asian male are
>just no fun to be with. I have met asian women who just don't wants to talk
>to you because you're oriental. (And I hang out with white people all the
>time).

Be like Bruce Lee.

[mst]

moo shu guy wrote in message <7885fs$8sp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

>well, i guess i need to be enlightened about what priveleges i must give
up.
>i can only think of one that occurred in my family structure, namely that
my
>parents were overprotective towards my sister, using the excuse "well,
girls
>are easier targets for perverts"-

Well, the thing is, more "liberated," progressive, FEMINIST families would
consider it more useful to teach the girls to to defend themselves, both
physically and emotionally, from such attacks. Overprotection is harmful,
to both boys AND girls...it prevents children from developing the skills to
negotiate danger. That's not to say you should throw all caution to the
wind, but that it is definitely possible to teach kids how to take care of
themselves in nearly all situations.

As far as the "privileges" boys get, I have a rather large extended family
that stretches over six generations and includes around 70 people who make
up nearly a dozen nuclear families with children. This is what I've
observed...boys get to speak more often and their opinions are taken more
seriously. They are drawn into adult conversations at an earlier age,
adults show more interest in what they are doing, their education and career
plans are discussed at length in a way that girls' aren't. That's a BIGGIE.

At meals, boys are not expected to help with the food preparation yet they
get to eat first--while the womenfolk serve them--and they do not have to
clean up. If they DO lend a hand, the adults make a big deal over how
mature and helpful they are, ignoring the girls who do the same chores on a
daily basis.

When adults, the women's careers and education are always secondary to their
husbands. Both can have good jobs, but if the man is transferred or gets a
better offer, they move. As far as I can tell, it doesn't happen in the
other direction. It doesn't SEEM to bother these women, but it doesn't seem
like they've really questioned it either. The more successful, independent
(and generally better educated) women are all married to white men. The
younger girls see this, and what kind of conclusion do you THINK they're
going to draw?

If a couple has children, the man doesn't contribute much to childrearing.
Some never change diapers or do night feedings. Many never learn to cook or
clean, and if the wife continues to work after the kids are born, she ends
up stressed to the bone.

Girls are often complimented or criticized on their appearance, whereas
boys' appearance never seems to be an issue. Boys may be complimented or
criticized for other things, of course, but they are not "ranked" by their
looks as girls often are.

There's a lot more, and of course, these biases are not limited only to
Asian families, but it does seem to be somewhat more blatant in Asian
American culture. This is probably because the percentage of recent
immigrants is so high...as we become more assimilated, we will learn to hide
these biases better, as most Americans have...but why not just get rid of
them altogether?

>as for other things like helping with chores like washing dishes and
whatnot,
>i had no priveleges to give up, plus i got the joyous job of hauling the
>trash. my sister got to sew, but i have to wonder how much of a chore that
>was since now that she's on her own she does it herself.

Obviously, not all families will perpetuate the same biases, but these are
all too common practices nonetheless. My own father was a wonderfully
progressive man. I was his only child, and he NEVER made me feel like he
wanted a son. He changed (and WASHED!) my diapers when I was born in 1970,
in Taiwan, which was virtually unheard of. He learned to braid my hair and
taught me to wash dishes and do laundry. After his retirement, he lived
with me for two years when my daughter was born, taking care of her while I
worked and contributing to the housework and cooking. I know I was lucky to
have a father like that...I hope in the future, every girl will have a Daddy
who let her know that she could do anything and everything a man can
do...and that a man can do anything, even women's work.

[zimo]

I don't know what the confusion is.

Women ALWAYS assimilate first.
Women ALWAYS get taken first.
Women are ALWAYS accepted by foreign society first.

Why? Because they're women, and women are less of a threat, and men in the majority
aren't that picky, want sex, and will take women from any race, creed or color!

It has nothing to do with progressiveness, adaptability, or anything of that sort.
Women have always been kidnapped or taken as slaves by invaders, mauraders, and
conquerers regardless of race. Men just aren't that picky. They will happily accept
and welcome females from anywhere, as long as they can get some..

Additionally, minority-women will predictably view the majority-men as the
archetypical male. Why? Because they're the ones in power, the most in number, and
the ones they see most of the time. They naturally become the iconic example of
manhood.

Majority-men aren't that picky regarding women. They'll date, have sex, do whatever
with almost any women, black, white, yellow, or green. Thus minority-women don't
have to try very hard to get a date, get screwed, hit-on or hitched to majority-men.
Women, however, are more picky. Thus the predicament of all minority-males, who not
of their own making, fall short of the majority-ideal.

It's not anything in particular that Asian men are doing that is driving Asian women
away, or deterring white women. It's simply the state of society at the moment, as a
citizen of a world where the majority happens to be White.

Simon Lee wrote:

> I don't know if this is only happening in New York City, but within the last
> couple of years, I'm beginning to see more and more asian women dating or
> marrying white men. On the other hand, I don't see any asian men dating
> asian women. In fact, there was one time when I was trying to prove this
> point to my girlfriend(she's chinese) at south street seeport(a popular hang
> out for young chinese people), we sat there for half an hour and this is
> what we saw:
>

> We saw 14 asian women dating white men (in two cases, blacks).
> Only one asian man was with a white woman(and she's ugly and fat).
>

> Of those white men, they usually look twice as old as the women, and most of
> them just aren't very good looking and those asian women are usually very
> good looking, they could've done a lot better.
>

[dangit]

How DARE you speak up against traditional male roles in the family.

You should be ASHAMED of yourself.

[Alex Crouvier]

Simon Lee wrote:
>
>
> Men, do something about it before it's too late, go to the gym, update your
> look and please don't be shy with women, go up and ask, that's how all white
> guys get our women while you guys are standing at the corner telling your
> equally shy friends about how good that asian girl looks. I did my part,
> but I can only convert one asian female. Please help.

Yea, you speak like as if white American men walk, talk, and make women
swoon like Don Juan. I don't think you have seen everything.

[Walter Lee]

zimo wrote:

> I don't know what the confusion is.
>
> Women ALWAYS assimilate first.
> Women ALWAYS get taken first.
> Women are ALWAYS accepted by foreign society first.
>

this reminds me of a saying that goes something like this...========
To see your enemies die by your sword.
To smell your enemy's stronghold burn in hot white flames.
and
To hear their women and children
wail and cry in despair.

(Conan the Barbarian???)

The women of Troy were taken by the Greeks...

> Why? Because they're women, and women are less of a threat, and men in the majority
> aren't that picky, want sex, and will take women from any race, creed or color!
>
> It has nothing to do with progressiveness, adaptability, or anything of that sort.
> Women have always been kidnapped or taken as slaves by invaders, mauraders, and
> conquerers regardless of race. Men just aren't that picky. They will happily accept
> and welcome females from anywhere, as long as they can get some..
>

> Additionally, minority-women will predictably view the majority-men as the
> archetypical male. Why? Because they're the ones in power, the most in number, and
> the ones they see most of the time. They naturally become the iconic example of
> manhood.

not necessarily. Media and militarycontrol in the Old South Africa made the white
minority male the
iconic example of manhood. Power doesnot require
a population majority. This was also true for other countries
that under european colonial empires in the past.

> Majority-men aren't that picky regarding women. They'll date, have sex, do whatever
> with almost any women, black, white, yellow, or green. Thus minority-women don't
> have to try very hard to get a date, get screwed, hit-on or hitched to majority-men.
> Women, however, are more picky. Thus the predicament of all minority-males, who not
> of their own making, fall short of the majority-ideal.

More to the point - there are more majority-men to select from and therefore the
morefinicky you are the more likely you will find a higher/closer criteria match with a
larger population. A key element here is the de-emphasizing the race/ethnicity
selection criteria (making it weight less than other components). The question should
be is whether race/ethnicity/nationality/culture/language/religion is as important as
as it was in the past? With such an assertion one states the support values that
make it so for that selection criteria.

> It's not anything in particular that Asian men are doing that is driving Asian women
> away, or deterring white women. It's simply the state of society at the moment, as a
> citizen of a world where the majority happens to be White.
>

A question that one may ask is whether european descent women marrynon-european descent
men in other countries (not the USA) at the same rates as
non-european descent women marry european-descent men in the USA when the
european descent women live in a country where non-european-descent
men are the majority? In some cases like South Africa I believe the
answer would be no. Other reasons like military and economic dominance
of one ethnic group may play an equally or more important factor
into this equation.

[zimo]

Walter Lee wrote:

> not necessarily. Media and militarycontrol in the Old South Africa made the white
> minority male the
> iconic example of manhood. Power doesnot require
> a population majority. This was also true for other countries
> that under european colonial empires in the past.

I assumed this was obvious, but I guess not. "Majority", does not refer necessarily to
"greater number", but ultimately to "greater power". Thus like in South Africa, the
"majority", was the Whites.

> > Majority-men aren't that picky regarding women. They'll date, have sex, do whatever
> > with almost any women, black, white, yellow, or green. Thus minority-women don't
> > have to try very hard to get a date, get screwed, hit-on or hitched to majority-men.
> > Women, however, are more picky. Thus the predicament of all minority-males, who not
> > of their own making, fall short of the majority-ideal.
>
> More to the point - there are more majority-men to select from and therefore the
> morefinicky you are the more likely you will find a higher/closer criteria match with a
> larger population. A key element here is the de-emphasizing the race/ethnicity
> selection criteria (making it weight less than other components). The question should
> be is whether race/ethnicity/nationality/culture/language/religion is as important as
> as it was in the past? With such an assertion one states the support values that
> make it so for that selection criteria.

Yes, that will also play a role. But more importantly, the physical and other
characteristics of the "majority-male" become symbols of "power". Consequently, the
characteristics of the Majority-men (whatever that may be, physical or non-physical) become
more "attractive" to women.

That being the case, race DOES play a role (assuming that the salient difference between
"majority" and "minority" is RACE).

> > It's not anything in particular that Asian men are doing that is driving Asian women
> > away, or deterring white women. It's simply the state of society at the moment, as a
> > citizen of a world where the majority happens to be White.
> >
>
> A question that one may ask is whether european descent women marrynon-european descent
> men in other countries (not the USA) at the same rates as
> non-european descent women marry european-descent men in the USA when the
> european descent women live in a country where non-european-descent
> men are the majority? In some cases like South Africa I believe the
> answer would be no. Other reasons like military and economic dominance
> of one ethnic group may play an equally or more important factor
> into this equation.

Obviously, they will NOT. Whites are the "majority" in the world. Not in number, but in
power and influence. Aesthetic tastes lean towards white characteristics and features (no
surprise). So although white women may have a higher rate of marriage outside of race in
countries of a different race (simply from a statistical and availability standpoint), they
will still, on average, prefer men belonging to the "majority", namely, WHITE.

[Cthulhu]

In article <36A7970A...@yahoo.com>, myperso...@yahoo.com
says...

> >Of those white men, they usually look twice as old as the women, and most of
> >them just aren't very good looking and those asian women are usually very
> >good looking, they could've done a lot better.
>

> Hope i don't get lynched here. Just voicing my 'own' pesonal views.
>
> I don't think we should really blame the asian women you describe, for
> dating white men.
> They probably feel that the average asian male is not worthy of their
> attention.
> I can't speak for the majority, but from what i have seen through my
> past travels.
> The women don't have an awful lot to pick from, when it comes down to
> looks.

> In case your wondering. I am a asian male myself.
> I just hope that by the time i finish my degree, there will still be a
> few females left in this world to accept me for what i am.
> An average asian guy.
>

Wow you are seriously pathetic! Shine them shoes boy. All your friends
must be the local asian Comp sci. nerds at the University of ______ which
does not represent a realistic sample of the asian male population. This
kind of self deprecating talk is what allows you to get stepped on in
this white run country. You see the master scheme is that white people
WANT minorities to be docile mindless sheep such as yourself so the
takeover & whitewash process is easier for them to accomplish.

Cth

[Cthulhu]

In article <36A8B9...@geocities.com>, troj...@geocities.com says...

Actually most white guys i've seen at social gatherings have been
egotistical slobbering gimps who think they are the main event at any
occasion. Especially the ones who attend asian sponsored parties and act
like they are fuckin' Brad Pitt and try to pickup on every asian girl
there. What's funny though is i've seen quite a few bomb terribly while
doing this but I guess it's process of elimination and eventually they
will sucker some white washed ho' to sleep with them. Which explains why
you see a disproportionate number of physically and mentally repulsive
white males hanging onto their asian fetish ho's like they won the prized
trophy of asia.

Cth

[moo shu guy]

In article <BmVp2.190$nM5...@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>,

"mst" <ter...@home.com> wrote:
> moo shu guy wrote in message <7885fs$8sp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

> Well, the thing is, more "liberated," progressive, FEMINIST families would

well, i would categorize my family as "modern" but not necessarily
progressive. certainly not in the vanguard, nor caught in a time warp. i
probably could've used the instruction more than my sis, but i was caught in
this bizarro self-imposed mental catch-22... i was running away from an asian
identity, thus the very thing that would help keep me from getting beat up
for being asian would be to learn martial arts (which would be asian since my
parents didn't know any other). i suppose the way outta that might've been
to take up boxing (ala gus lee's china boy) or some other fighting art not
seen as asian, but neither my parents nor i were bright enough to figure it
out. they probably figured i'd tire of being a target and give in to kung fu
lessons but i steadfastly refused until my tormenters ended up in vocational
school and disappeared from the scene.

> observed...boys get to speak more often and their opinions are taken more
> seriously. They are drawn into adult conversations at an earlier age,
> adults show more interest in what they are doing, their education and career
> plans are discussed at length in a way that girls' aren't. That's a BIGGIE.

wow, isn't this the same complaint directed at public school teachers? i
guess not being on the receiving end i din't notice so much, plus there was
no observable difference to me between the family and non-family situations.

i wonder if much of your extended family is first generation or overseas,
since you mention living in tw.

> When adults, the women's careers and education are always secondary to their
> husbands. Both can have good jobs, but if the man is transferred or gets a
> better offer, they move. As far as I can tell, it doesn't happen in the
> other direction. It doesn't SEEM to bother these women, but it doesn't seem
> like they've really questioned it either. The more successful, independent
> (and generally better educated) women are all married to white men. The
> younger girls see this, and what kind of conclusion do you THINK they're
> going to draw?

i guess, it's always the case of ymmv. among my immediate (grandparents
on down) extended family, pretty much all the cousins my age married white or
are dating white among the females (2 outta 10 aren't, although the 2 guys
aren't chinese either, but flip and viet), while 3 outta 8 guys married asian,
chinese specifically, tho 1's already divorced. and there's really no
correlation to success or not, career or not.

> Girls are often complimented or criticized on their appearance, whereas
> boys' appearance never seems to be an issue. Boys may be complimented or
> criticized for other things, of course, but they are not "ranked" by their
> looks as girls often are.

so do you think guys should be judged more, or girls less, i.e. are you
against or for judging by appearance in general?

> worked and contributing to the housework and cooking. I know I was lucky to
> have a father like that...I hope in the future, every girl will have a Daddy
> who let her know that she could do anything and everything a man can
> do...and that a man can do anything, even women's work.

i think a lot of white or black or hispanic girls would be happy to have a
daddy like that. there are precious few, certainly for that time.

[mdryoon]

Simon Lee wrote:

> I don't know if this is only happening in New York City, but within the last
> couple of years, I'm beginning to see more and more asian women dating or
> marrying white men. On the other hand, I don't see any asian men dating
> asian women.

If it will make you feel any better, when I was in San Antonio, I
saw a party of four, two WM, one AM and one WF (and she was pretty
good looking.) It was obvious that the WF was the AM's girlfriend.

Richard Yoon (email replies to mdr...@earthlink.net.)

[mst]

moo shu guy wrote in message <78beim$3gk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

>i probably could've used the instruction more than my sis

Well, not if the reason your parents restricted her freedom was fear of
attack. If her learning martial arts would have allowed them to give her as
much free reign as they gave you...I'd say she needed it more. Your problem
with bullies is another matter...maybe if you had BOTH taken classes, it
might have made such gender biases less of an issue altogether.

>>boys get to speak more often and their opinions are taken more
>>seriously.

>wow, isn't this the same complaint directed at public school teachers? i
>guess not being on the receiving end i din't notice so much, plus there was
>no observable difference to me between the family and non-family
situations.

Notice I never said that the white mainstream American culture was LESS
sexist, just less blatant about it. Yes, this is a common problem that
manifests itself in many situations...I would argue, however, that when it
occurs within the FAMILY, it is more painful to the girls because family
relationships have a power and PERMANENCE that doesn't necessarily exist
elsewhere. This is why I would push for Asian FAMILIES to carefully
consider their behavior and try to eliminate such biases as much as
possible.

>i wonder if much of your extended family is first generation or overseas,
>since you mention living in tw.

I am part of the first immigration wave in my family. My aunt first came in
1971, I came with my father in 1975. The most recent immigrants arrived in
1996 and more are on the way. We're all Chinese by way of Taiwan. So far,
about a half dozen children are American born, including my two kids. As of
now, there are only a small number (three or four aunts/uncles and their
families) of my extended family left in Asia, and the ones in China probably
aren't coming.

>so do you think guys should be judged more, or girls less, i.e. are you
>against or for judging by appearance in general?

I just don't see that it's relevant, families shouldn't be labeling their
children in any case. But if it IS an issue, let it be an equal opportunity
issue.

>>I hope in the future, every girl will have a Daddy
>>who let her know that she could do anything and everything a man can
>>do...and that a man can do anything, even women's work.
>i think a lot of white or black or hispanic girls would be happy to have a
>daddy like that. there are precious few, certainly for that time.

Yes, I know...I don't think good fathers are any more lacking in Asian
cultures than others, but it might be more NOTICEABLE to Asian girls when
they are looking for an affectionate and respectful mate. And keep in mind
that we DON'T have pop culture father-figures to turn to, either. All the
"good fathers" on TV tend to be white...what does that do the the Asian
American (or any other minority) female psyche?

[Shekky]

This is happening all over America. You just have to look at any college
campus in the country to see it. I'm surprised it took you this long to see
it.

The reason for it is very simple. It can be distilled down to a simple
social dynamic. The fact is the Asian male is considered deficiently
masculine according to white standards, while the Asian female is considered
abundantly feminine according to white standards. This is why the white
male is so attracted to the Asian girl, because she represents a sense of
soft femininity that is lacking in most white girls. On the other hand, the
white female has no interest in the Asian male, because he is considered to
be lacking in masculinity.

Unfortunately, these definitions of feminity/masculinity are largely based
on physical attributes. In this regard, Asian males are at a distinct
disadvantage. Our physical stature is generally less impressive compared to
whites -- shorter, skinnier, etc. Especially during adolescence, these
"inferior" physical attributes make us seem less masculine and therefore
less attractive to the opposite sex. However, the same physical attributes
for Asian females are an asset rather than a handicap. The fact that a
young Asian woman is short, skinny, and weak-looking makes her seem even
more attractive, because for women these attributes add to the sense of
femininity. If you are a white guy, why go out with a big fat white girl
when you can have sex with a 20 yr old Asian girl who looks like she's 12?
And of course if you are an Asian girl, why go out with a unmasculine
looking Asian boy, when you can go out with a big, strapping white boy?

The problem for we Asian men is there isn't much we can do about it.
Masculinity, and therefore attractiveness, is defined by physical features.
I mean, come on, how many of you guys out there can actually grow a beard?
Social marginalization just seems to be our lot in life. It is difficult to
be an Asian male in America, gentlemen.

Simon Lee wrote in message <783mgj$t5l$2...@news01.li.net>...

>I don't know if this is only happening in New York City, but within the
last
>couple of years, I'm beginning to see more and more asian women dating or
>marrying white men. On the other hand, I don't see any asian men dating

>asian women. In fact, there was one time when I was trying to prove this
>point to my girlfriend(she's chinese) at south street seeport(a popular
hang
>out for young chinese people), we sat there for half an hour and this is
>what we saw:
>
>We saw 14 asian women dating white men (in two cases, blacks).
>Only one asian man was with a white woman(and she's ugly and fat).
>

>Of those white men, they usually look twice as old as the women, and most
of
>them just aren't very good looking and those asian women are usually very
>good looking, they could've done a lot better.
>

[Robert Chin]

I beg to differ. You can buy this cop out if you like. I personally
never had any problems going out with any kinds of women. It was always
a matter of if I wanted to or not.

The more asian guys keep reciting this line, the more it remains a self
fulfilling prophecy. A lot of white women believe that asian guys are
good providers and faithful...That will pique the interest of any woman
interested in a long term stable relationship right there.

The bottom line, though, isn't the race of the person, but the content
of their character. Who wants to date a man or a woman of any color if
you can't stand him/her? And if you do like him/her, then why is their
color important?

[Simon Lee]

Absolutely agree with you, I've seen this before too.

Cthulhu wrote in message ...

>In article <36A8B9...@geocities.com>, troj...@geocities.com says...
>> Simon Lee wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Men, do something about it before it's too late, go to the gym, update
your
>> > look and please don't be shy with women, go up and ask, that's how all
white
>> > guys get our women while you guys are standing at the corner telling
your

>

[mach...@my-dejanews.com]

In article <36A83042...@zong.edu>,

zimo <zi...@zong.edu> wrote:
> I don't know what the confusion is.
>
> Women ALWAYS assimilate first.
> Women ALWAYS get taken first.
> Women are ALWAYS accepted by foreign society first.
>

> Why? Because they're women, and women are less of a threat, and men in the
majority
> aren't that picky, want sex, and will take women from any race, creed or
color!

> I would agree with that, except for two examples of ethnic groups I've

noticed where the men seem to be the ones who have been "taken" by the
majority culture: Jews and African-Americans. I see countless Jewish men with
Gentile wives, almost always blond-anglo-protestant types (see the TV shows
"Mad about You, Birdget loves Bernie, etc). I've seen a couple of them who
took Italian wives. From what I've read on the subject and personally
experienced, Jewish women are less likely to marry out. Among
African-Americans, you are probably familiar with the tension over this
issue, that AA men attract women of all races, but AA women are less likely
to date interracially. For this reason, I think there are more factors going
on here than just white guys not being picky.

> It has nothing to do with progressiveness, adaptability, or anything of that
sort.
> Women have always been kidnapped or taken as slaves by invaders, mauraders,
and
> conquerers regardless of race. Men just aren't that picky. They will
happily accept
> and welcome females from anywhere, as long as they can get some..
>
> Additionally, minority-women will predictably view the majority-men as the
> archetypical male. Why? Because they're the ones in power, the most in
number, and

> the ones they see most of the time. They naturally become the iconic example
of
> manhood.
>

> Majority-men aren't that picky regarding women. They'll date, have sex, do
whatever
> with almost any women, black, white, yellow, or green. Thus minority-women
don't
> have to try very hard to get a date, get screwed, hit-on or hitched to
majority-men.
> Women, however, are more picky. Thus the predicament of all minority-males,
who not
> of their own making, fall short of the majority-ideal.
>

> It's not anything in particular that Asian men are doing that is driving
Asian women
> away, or deterring white women. It's simply the state of society at the
moment, as a
> citizen of a world where the majority happens to be White.
>

> Simon Lee wrote:
>
> > I don't know if this is only happening in New York City, but within the last
> > couple of years, I'm beginning to see more and more asian women dating or
> > marrying white men. On the other hand, I don't see any asian men dating
> > asian women. In fact, there was one time when I was trying to prove this
> > point to my girlfriend(she's chinese) at south street seeport(a popular hang
> > out for young chinese people), we sat there for half an hour and this is
> > what we saw:
> >
> > We saw 14 asian women dating white men (in two cases, blacks).
> > Only one asian man was with a white woman(and she's ugly and fat).
> >
> > Of those white men, they usually look twice as old as the women, and most of
> > them just aren't very good looking and those asian women are usually very
> > good looking, they could've done a lot better.
> >
> > What's up with this?
> > PS: I have nothing against asian women, in fact, I have seen a lot of asian
> > women dating asian guys, BUT ONLY IN CHINATOWN.
>
>

[mst]

Shekky wrote in message <78cdku$1et0$1...@piglet.cc.uic.edu>...

The fact that a
>young Asian woman is short, skinny, and weak-looking makes her seem even
>more attractive, because for women these attributes add to the sense of
>femininity. If you are a white guy, why go out with a big fat white girl
>when you can have sex with a 20 yr old Asian girl who looks like she's 12?

What the hell? Why would you assume white guys prefer having sex with
12-year olds? Why call white women fat? Those are unnecessarily offensive
comments that contribute nothing to the discussion.

>And of course if you are an Asian girl, why go out with a unmasculine
>looking Asian boy, when you can go out with a big, strapping white boy?

Uh, I don't know where YOU are, but here at Berkeley, the Asian women are
not all wilting lotuses, and many of the Asian men are quite big and
strapping. It certainly doesn't help the situation when people WITHIN the
culture perpetuate stereotypes.

I REALLY don't think that appearances and size are the main factors behind
the interdating and outmarriage trend. It has a lot more to do with
expectations. If a woman expects to be treated well and with respect,
she'll be willing to overlook physical shortcomings...and vice versa, it
doesn't matter how studly you are, if you seem like a jerk, take a walk. It
seems that some men are projecting the importance of looks onto women in
general...guys are a lot more likely to be initially attracted to girls
based on physical attributes.

Besides, some of you have mentioned the phenomenon of attractive women with
ugly men...if that is the case, this alpha-male argument makes no sense.

And don't get into another flamefest about women who love jerks. They're a
definite minority...a highly visible one, since they're always in need of
rescue by other poor softhearted jerks, but weak willed women are far from
the norm.

[Shekky]

Robert Chin wrote in message <36AA7160...@shore.net>...

> A lot of white women believe that asian guys are
>good providers and faithful...That will pique the interest of any woman
>interested in a long term stable relationship right there.

Yeah, but women don't start thinking in such a rational way until they are
30 or older, i.e. not until they start looking for a husband. I grant you,
when an Asian man becomes older and establishes his career and has money and
social status to offer, he becomes attractive to many women, maybe even
regardless of race. But, in the meantime Asian guys have a lot of barriers
to overcome. What about adolescence and college years? No girl is looking
for a faithful good provider at that stage in life...that's when Asian guys
have little to offer and have difficulty competing with the white boys.

[Robert Chin]

During those years, the advantage is being DIFFERENT! That was always
MY advantage.

Look, nothing happens if you 1) don't try and 2) don't allow people to
see who you are.

If you allow yourself to buy into that stuff, you don't go out with
women, no matter who you are. Everybody at that age, men and women are
experimenting. If you have confidence in yourself, you'll do fine. If
you believe you have little to offer, you really have little to offer.

Don't make excuses...try it.

[Don Kirkman]

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Robert Chin wrote in article
<36AAF9D9...@shore.net>:

>During those years, the advantage is being DIFFERENT! That was always
>MY advantage.

>Look, nothing happens if you 1) don't try and 2) don't allow people to
>see who you are.

>If you allow yourself to buy into that stuff, you don't go out with
>women, no matter who you are. Everybody at that age, men and women are
>experimenting. If you have confidence in yourself, you'll do fine. If
>you believe you have little to offer, you really have little to offer.

It's been a long time since I've seen this discussed in scaa, but when
those dating experiments are going on if something like 80% of the guys
in the library or the dorm or the workplace are white would it really be
odd if as many as 80% of the AFs' dates were white guys? Don't most of
us end up dating whoever's attractive to us and available in sufficient
numbers (making allowance for the ones in every ethnic group that pick
their targets either by preference for or aversion to particular
ethnicities or physical characteristics)?

IOW, aren't opportunity and chance playing at least as big a part in
this behavior as deliberate choice?

>Don't make excuses...try it.

>Shekky wrote:

>> Robert Chin wrote in message <36AA7160...@shore.net>...

>> > A lot of white women believe that asian guys are
>> >good providers and faithful...That will pique the interest of any woman
>> >interested in a long term stable relationship right there.

>> Yeah, but women don't start thinking in such a rational way until they are
>> 30 or older, i.e. not until they start looking for a husband. I grant you,
>> when an Asian man becomes older and establishes his career and has money and
>> social status to offer, he becomes attractive to many women, maybe even
>> regardless of race. But, in the meantime Asian guys have a lot of barriers
>> to overcome. What about adolescence and college years? No girl is looking
>> for a faithful good provider at that stage in life...that's when Asian guys
>> have little to offer and have difficulty competing with the white boys.

--
Don

[RYAN]

Hey my fellow asian men, ditch the big cities and stay away from the
Southern States. I used to live with my parents in a small town in the
Midwest before I graduate from college. I got more loving from pretty
white girls than any other time in my life. It does help if you are well
groomed, funny as hell and good looking.

[mst]

Shekky wrote in message <78eqbh$2kus$1...@piglet.cc.uic.edu>...

>Yeah, but women don't start thinking in such a rational way until they are
>30 or older, i.e. not until they start looking for a husband.

I don't think that's generally true. A number of "career-focused" women
WILL put off marriage, but not necessarily commitment. I think you're
underestimating the appeal of a man who is genuinely respectful of a woman's
abilities and who appreciates the contributions she makes to the
relationship. Money is a factor, but only insofar as professional promise
is an indication of personal fulfillment. A girl who's just looking for a
provider isn't one a self-respecting guy would want anyway...is she?

>But, in the meantime Asian guys have a lot of barriers
>to overcome. What about adolescence and college years? No girl is looking
>for a faithful good provider at that stage in life...that's when Asian guys
>have little to offer and have difficulty competing with the white boys.

Unfortunately, many guys (of all races) ARE looking for a mother-substitute
during those years. Or else, he is overly dependent ON his mom. No sane
woman wants to baby her man, or worse, a baby for a man. If a guy is able
to be independent and has something substantial to offer emotionally, I
don't think he will have any trouble attracting girls.

As a side comment, consider this advice for those guys who are complaining
about not getting dates:

Too often, these theories on "what women want" are just ways for guys to
ignore what women DON'T want about them. Stop making excuses and take a
good hard look at yourself...how will a woman's life be enhanced by
including you in it? Will she be able to count on you? Will you treat her
with respect? When she is happy, will you share in her happiness? If she
is sad, will you comfort her? Would you consider her an equal partner in
your life?

On the other hand:

Will you simply become another responsibility for her? Will you try to
squirm out of things that you don't want to do, even though you know she
really needs you there to support her? Are you nicer when you want
something than you are when you don't? If she's happy, are you jealous
because it isn't related to you? When she cries, do you avoid talking about
what's making her sad? Is she just an accessory to your life, do you expect
everything else to remain the same after you become a couple?

Race really has nothing to do with any of this, except at a very peripheral
level of cultural perception.

[dragon...@my-dejanews.com]

Robert,

I have to agree with you 100%. It's not all physical attribute and all that.
Attitude is the most important thing. You can't walk up to a woman and expect
to win her when you already feel you've lost. I didn't have any problems
dating girls of all backgrounds and I don't think most Asian guys should have
any problems either. It's in your attitude, outlook, sense of humor and self
esteem. I know this guy who looks like a nerd but went out with totally hot
chicks(all races) and the reason he's able to was because he hold his own
ground, emotionally stable and don't take shit. Girls respect that.

In article <36AA7160...@shore.net>,

Robert Chin <bob...@shore.net> wrote:
> I beg to differ. You can buy this cop out if you like. I personally
> never had any problems going out with any kinds of women. It was always
> a matter of if I wanted to or not.
>
> The more asian guys keep reciting this line, the more it remains a self

> fulfilling prophecy. A lot of white women believe that asian guys are

> good providers and faithful...That will pique the interest of any woman
> interested in a long term stable relationship right there.
>

> The bottom line, though, isn't the race of the person, but the content
> of their character. Who wants to date a man or a woman of any color if
> you can't stand him/her? And if you do like him/her, then why is their
> color important?
>
> Shekky wrote:
> >
> > The reason for it is very simple. It can be distilled down to a simple
> > social dynamic. The fact is the Asian male is considered deficiently
> > masculine according to white standards, while the Asian female is
considered
> > abundantly feminine according to white standards. This is why the white
> > male is so attracted to the Asian girl, because she represents a sense of
> > soft femininity that is lacking in most white girls. On the other hand,
the
> > white female has no interest in the Asian male, because he is considered to
> > be lacking in masculinity.
>

Visit http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bridge/8805/

Where you can discuss or Chat live about the state of our Chinese
culture

[Shekky]

dragon...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<78hpik$g51$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

>Robert,
>
>I have to agree with you 100%. It's not all physical attribute and all
that.
>Attitude is the most important thing. You can't walk up to a woman and
expect
>to win her when you already feel you've lost. I didn't have any problems
>dating girls of all backgrounds and I don't think most Asian guys should
have
>any problems either. It's in your attitude, outlook, sense of humor and
self
>esteem. I know this guy who looks like a nerd but went out with totally hot
>chicks(all races) and the reason he's able to was because he hold his own
>ground, emotionally stable and don't take shit. Girls respect that.

You are correct in saying it's not all about physical attributes. I
agree...attitude is the most important thing. Women, especially young
women, are attracted to a guy who has a sense of confidence and a sense of
comfortable social adjustment. In other words, a guy who is comfortable in
his own skin, as it were. The problem is that too many Asian males lack
these "social" qualities and are therefore unattractive to women. The
physical issues I stated previously play a large part in this. The fact
that AMs are considered "deficiently masculine" has a damaging psychological
effect. For this reason and many others, the AM in America is the most
socially alienated group in our society. It's hard to develop a strong
sense of self-esteem and a positive "attitude" under these conditions. I
didn't say it's impossible...just difficult, an added barrier.

Our social dilemma is analogous to that of black females. They are also
socially alienated, but for them it is because they are considered
"deficiently feminine." They complain about how their men prefer white
women, and of course white women are attracted to black men because they are
considered "abundantly masculine." Nonetheless, I think black females deal
with it better than we do. They seem to gather strength from each other.
On the other hand, Asian guys seem to view their Asian male peers as enemies
or rivals, not just regarding girls but about everything. There is less a
sense of comradery, so this adds to the alienation.

To get back to the point, personality and attitude are the most important
assets in order to achieve normal, healthy relationships with the opposite
sex. I just hope that guys who are frustrated about their love life try
hard to not let their social alienation destroy them, and try to develop the
proper attitude and personality.

[dangit]

Here's a guy that knows how to enjoy life. Would make a damn good TV
show.

RYAN wrote:
>
> Hey my fellow asian men, ditch the big cities and stay away from the
> Southern States. I used to live with my parents in a small town in the

> Midwest before I graduated from college. I got more loving from pretty

[say...@earthlink.com]

In article <MPG.111317a1...@news.earthlink.net>,

evil...@earthlink.net (Cthulhu) wrote:
> In article <36A7970A...@yahoo.com>, myperso...@yahoo.com
> says...

> > >Of those white men, they usually look twice as old as the women, and most
of
> > >them just aren't very good looking and those asian women are usually very
> > >good looking, they could've done a lot better.
> >

> > Hope i don't get lynched here. Just voicing my 'own' pesonal views.
> >
> > I don't think we should really blame the asian women you describe, for
> > dating white men.
> > They probably feel that the average asian male is not worthy of their
> > attention.
> > I can't speak for the majority, but from what i have seen through my
> > past travels.
> > The women don't have an awful lot to pick from, when it comes down to
> > looks.
> > In case your wondering. I am a asian male myself.
> > I just hope that by the time i finish my degree, there will still be a
> > few females left in this world to accept me for what i am.
> > An average asian guy.
> >
>
> Wow you are seriously pathetic! Shine them shoes boy. All your friends
> must be the local asian Comp sci. nerds at the University of ______ which
> does not represent a realistic sample of the asian male population. This
> kind of self deprecating talk is what allows you to get stepped on in
> this white run country. You see the master scheme is that white people
> WANT minorities to be docile mindless sheep such as yourself so the
> takeover & whitewash process is easier for them to accomplish.
>
> Cth

> >>>When I was on campus at Michigan State University I often observed the
>>>>>phenonmenon described in this thread, Asian Females hooked up with White
>>>>>Males. I saw these mixed couples more often than I saw Asian/Asian
>>>>couples. I rarely saw Asian/Black couples. I once asked an East Indian
>>>>>girl who was dark as any ebony (obviously of Dravidian orign) out on a

date and she told me that she would bring shame to her family if they found
out that she was with a Black man. Apparently, a significant number of Asian
females have already been whitewashed into thinking that White is better>

>>>>>

>

"Power conceedes nothing without a struggle...It never did and it never will"
Frederick Douglass

[dragon...@my-dejanews.com]

In article <78i921$1h1q$1...@piglet.cc.uic.edu>,

"Shekky" <she...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> You are correct in saying it's not all about physical attributes. I
> agree...attitude is the most important thing. Women, especially young
> women, are attracted to a guy who has a sense of confidence and a sense of
> comfortable social adjustment. In other words, a guy who is comfortable in
> his own skin, as it were. The problem is that too many Asian males lack
> these "social" qualities and are therefore unattractive to women. The
> physical issues I stated previously play a large part in this. The fact
> that AMs are considered "deficiently masculine" has a damaging psychological
> effect. For this reason and many others, the AM in America is the most
> socially alienated group in our society.

I seriously do not think that AM are considered "deficiently masculine".
If some AM are confidently adjusted socially, they will be as desirable as any
guys. Some AM can't just slap on a pair of jeans and T-Shirt with ungroomed
hairstyle and walk up nervously to a chick to expect a positive response.

>It's hard to develop a strong
> sense of self-esteem and a positive "attitude" under these conditions. I
> didn't say it's impossible...just difficult, an added barrier.
>

It is very difficult. A lot has to come from upbringing and positive parental
reinforcement of their identity. If the parents are also uncomfortable being
in a "white" society, then, kids will pick it up too. I have seen too many
Asian kids age 10 and below hates Asian because they're ashamed of themselves
and their parents. With this, how can we grow up to be perfectly balanced
emotonally.

> Our social dilemma is analogous to that of black females. They are also
> socially alienated, but for them it is because they are considered
> "deficiently feminine." They complain about how their men prefer white
> women, and of course white women are attracted to black men because they are
> considered "abundantly masculine." Nonetheless, I think black females deal
> with it better than we do. They seem to gather strength from each other.
> On the other hand, Asian guys seem to view their Asian male peers as enemies
> or rivals, not just regarding girls but about everything. There is less a
> sense of comradery, so this adds to the alienation.
>

I don't think we have the Black female dilemma. I think some AM have to stop
thinking too hard about dating white girls because if you try too hard, you
will look desperate and "dweeby". Develop a balanced sense of emotional well
being, empathy for others & standing up to undesirables(including racists) but
forgive them with compassion, will automatically make you a chick magnet.

> To get back to the point, personality and attitude are the most important
> assets in order to achieve normal, healthy relationships with the opposite
> sex. I just hope that guys who are frustrated about their love life try
> hard to not let their social alienation destroy them, and try to develop the
> proper attitude and personality.
>
>

Attitude is everything and being AM we actually have the advantage of being
different. I remembered back in 1988 when I visited my girlfriend who's
studying in a small college town in Indiana. Now, Indiana is perceived to be
one big "redneck" state but to tell you the truth, seems like the girls there
are not rednecks at all. I get "friendly" advances from some of them. I went
to their parties and of all the guys I get the most attention from the girls
because I'm different. Use your difference to your advantage.

Visit http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bridge/8805/

Where you can discuss or Chat live about the state of our Chinese
culture

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------

[satans_...@hotmail.com]

In article <36A7970A...@yahoo.com>,
My View <myperso...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I don't think we should really blame the asian women you describe, for
> dating white men.
> They probably feel that the average asian male is not worthy of their
> attention.

> I just hope that by the time i finish my degree, there will still be a
> few females left in this world to accept me for what i am.
> An average asian guy.
>

I have to say that you are a raving disgrace to your race and if I had a say
in the matter you would be disowned from the asian race. Although this
probably does mean that there r more women for me savour and suckle... for
which I have to thabk you.....

CopyRight Fool Inc.

[moo shu guy]

so did anyone see the episode yesterday? opinions on "dr. lee"? i think it
gets to the first point in my response below.

i was curious about it seeing the ads with this asian guy in pj's and a
reasonably cute woman standing w/ him, some mention of "nurse who's in love
w/ paul" (presumably that woman). there's plenty of room for comic
exploration within that scenario (love triangle/rectangle), but the writer(s)
(is reiser one of them?) had to fall into the same tired old types for the
asian guy, for lack of desire, for lack of creativity, imho.

man that script was bad. and maybe the actor was too, although i couldn't
tell, because i cannot imagine how one could work with those lines he got.
talk about a deaf audience. or deaf writers. kinda like the feedback loop
for headbanging soundmen. they can't hear, so they crank it up to 11, and
then the audience goes deaf too.

In article <78ktmh$3kj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
dragon...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> I seriously do not think that AM are considered "deficiently masculine".

media images can be powerful, otherwise there would be no advertising
industry. are you seriously saying that am are not or have not been portrayed
as such, in popular american culture? even though "dr lee" in the above show
gets some line about "secure enough in my sexuality to learn" from the nurse,
virtually every word he is given for the rest of the show contradicts that.

contrast this to the "ling" character on ally mcbeal, who although kind of
averse to sex (atypical portrayal for an af), is everything but insecure [not
exactly the only reading, since one might say the hard front is a mask for an
insecure interior, but that allows room for a depth of interpretation missing
from "dr lee". sure ling is recurring and maybe dr lee is not?, but where's
the room for alternative interpretation of dr lee? he's openly self
deprecating but internally strong? not the way the part was written, or the
way it was played. someone willing to make fun of themselves shows a certain
amount of strength, but we were supposed to laugh AT the patheticness of "dr
lee", not WITH him about his faults.]

> If some AM are confidently adjusted socially, they will be as desirable as any
> guys. Some AM can't just slap on a pair of jeans and T-Shirt with ungroomed
> hairstyle and walk up nervously to a chick to expect a positive response.

i think the cream of any crop will have no problem. the question is what of
the vast middling unremarkable group? do they face obstacles that most
people don't have to deal with or think about?

> It is very difficult. A lot has to come from upbringing and positive parental
> reinforcement of their identity. If the parents are also uncomfortable being
> in a "white" society, then, kids will pick it up too. I have seen too many
> Asian kids age 10 and below hates Asian because they're ashamed of themselves
> and their parents. With this, how can we grow up to be perfectly balanced
> emotonally.

maybe, maybe not. parental influence is and can be strong, however, it
kicked in certainly kinda late for me, in spite of their general lack of
shame at being asian. the kids hate their parents and themselves not
necessarily because the parents are uncomfortable in their own skins, in fact
parents might be as or more ethnocentric than the dominant culture's, but
rather because "everyone else" seems to dislike asian. if you can figure out
the magic formula for "perfectly balanced" development in the face of this,
write the book for asian parents (or better yet for the asian american kids).

> will look desperate and "dweeby". Develop a balanced sense of emotional well
> being, empathy for others & standing up to undesirables(including racists) but
> forgive them with compassion, will automatically make you a chick magnet.

all of the above will help. it's still not automatic tho, and takes some
effort. nothing worthwhile comes without effort :)

msg

[dragon...@my-dejanews.com]

In article <78l904$ddk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,

asian...@hotmail.com (moo shu guy) wrote:
> so did anyone see the episode yesterday? opinions on "dr. lee"? i think it
> gets to the first point in my response below.
>
> i was curious about it seeing the ads with this asian guy in pj's and a
> reasonably cute woman standing w/ him, some mention of "nurse who's in love
> w/ paul" (presumably that woman). there's plenty of room for comic
> exploration within that scenario (love triangle/rectangle), but the writer(s)
> (is reiser one of them?) had to fall into the same tired old types for the
> asian guy, for lack of desire, for lack of creativity, imho.
>
> man that script was bad. and maybe the actor was too, although i couldn't
> tell, because i cannot imagine how one could work with those lines he got.
> talk about a deaf audience. or deaf writers. kinda like the feedback loop
> for headbanging soundmen. they can't hear, so they crank it up to 11, and
> then the audience goes deaf too.
>
>

> media images can be powerful, otherwise there would be no advertising
> industry. are you seriously saying that am are not or have not been portrayed
> as such, in popular american culture? even though "dr lee" in the above show
> gets some line about "secure enough in my sexuality to learn" from the nurse,
> virtually every word he is given for the rest of the show contradicts that.
>
> contrast this to the "ling" character on ally mcbeal, who although kind of
> averse to sex (atypical portrayal for an af), is everything but insecure [not
> exactly the only reading, since one might say the hard front is a mask for an
> insecure interior, but that allows room for a depth of interpretation missing
> from "dr lee". sure ling is recurring and maybe dr lee is not?, but
where's
> the room for alternative interpretation of dr lee? he's openly self
> deprecating but internally strong? not the way the part was written, or the
> way it was played. someone willing to make fun of themselves shows a certain
> amount of strength, but we were supposed to laugh AT the patheticness of "dr
> lee", not WITH him about his faults.]
>

Well, I for one would never succumb myself to such degradation. If enough of
us take a stand, none of these stereotypes would be prevalent. Also, we have
to stop looking to the dominant culture for self affirmation and look within
us for it. And if what's within us are just a mumbo jumbo collection of
pseudo- anglo-centric beliefs then, we probably will still have to look to
the dominant culture for self affirmation.

> i think the cream of any crop will have no problem. the question is what of
> the vast middling unremarkable group? do they face obstacles that most
> people don't have to deal with or think about?

If they be themselves then they will get whatever they deserve. And this,
I must get myself a white women thing is actually a disguise as an
acknowledgement of ones own "inferiority" as a man and the need to prove
oneself by "getting a white women", the symbol of the "ultimate" conquest.

>.
>
> maybe, maybe not. parental influence is and can be strong, however, it
> kicked in certainly kinda late for me, in spite of their general lack of
> shame at being asian. the kids hate their parents and themselves not
> necessarily because the parents are uncomfortable in their own skins, in fact
> parents might be as or more ethnocentric than the dominant culture's, but
> rather because "everyone else" seems to dislike asian. if you can
figure out
> the magic formula for "perfectly balanced" development in the face of this,
> write the book for asian parents (or better yet for the asian american kids).
>

There are no magic formulas. Because who you are is what you are. There are
no magic formulas to correct any "deficiencies" when there are actually none
to begin with. The "deficiencies" are actually a state of mind. Positive
encouragements from parents since day one will definitely helps. I moved to
Vancouver because of the high population of Asians plus multiculturalism is
encouraged and forced assimilation to Anglo culture is not, and my two
kids(yes my dating days are over) will have a great school social life
without feeling left out or different. Looking at the high school kids here,
I saw many AM with hot WF and vice versa.

> > will look desperate and "dweeby". Develop a balanced sense of emotional
well
> > being, empathy for others & standing up to undesirables(including racists)
but
> > forgive them with compassion, will automatically make you a chick magnet.
>
> all of the above will help. it's still not automatic tho, and takes some
> effort. nothing worthwhile comes without effort :)
>

>

Visit http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bridge/8805/

Where you can discuss or Chat live about the state of our Chinese
culture

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------

[Mog]

Seeing as you gave him the go-a-head to send the email in the first
place.
Don't you think that you are now stabbing him in the back.

If you are so morally correct, you wouldn't have posted that last email
in
soc.culture.japan that you did.
Would you like me to enlighten people on what you writ there?
I think not.
Think before you write next time satans_disciple.

satans_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <36A7970A...@yahoo.com>,
> My View <myperso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't think we should really blame the asian women you describe, for
> > dating white men.
> > They probably feel that the average asian male is not worthy of their
> > attention.
> > I just hope that by the time i finish my degree, there will still be a
> > few females left in this world to accept me for what i am.
> > An average asian guy.
> >
>
> I have to say that you are a raving disgrace to your race and if I had a say
> in the matter you would be disowned from the asian race. Although this
> probably does mean that there r more women for me savour and suckle... for
> which I have to thabk you.....
>
> CopyRight Fool Inc.
>

[moo shu guy]

In article <78lej2$hs4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
dragon...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> Well, I for one would never succumb myself to such degradation. If enough of

do you think? i imagine you're not an actor, nor am i one. but after
struggling for n years working in a copy shop while waiting for those few
opportunities, how easy is that to pass up? i can't honestly say what i'd
do. because i've devoted most of my life to something else, even if i was an
actor i'd probably be less eager than someone whose only goal was to act.
and if one of the few crumbs tossed their way was this... well... hmm...
maybe he had a vision how he would do it and the director/producers
overruled, "you must be a total loser w/ no self esteem, that's what the part
is supposed to be."

> us take a stand, none of these stereotypes would be prevalent. Also, we have
> to stop looking to the dominant culture for self affirmation and look within
> us for it. And if what's within us are just a mumbo jumbo collection of
> pseudo- anglo-centric beliefs then, we probably will still have to look to
> the dominant culture for self affirmation.

yes yes yes. i think i will fire off a quickie to nbc to say that was pretty
unfunny. i don't think it's worthy of a full-length rant, but maybe whoever
will think twice about rehiring that writer, or that writer will think twice
about being so stereotypical and uncreative.

to a certain extent, yes we should "stop looking for affimation" where it
won't come from, but for some/many that's not an option unless you have a
very restricted world. the mumbo-jumbo of eurocentric beliefs is everywhere,
it infests our education, our economic interactions, our social interactions
(unless we're fortunate enough to be somewhere where that mumbo jumbo is
lessened).

> If they be themselves then they will get whatever they deserve. And this,
> I must get myself a white women thing is actually a disguise as an
> acknowledgement of ones own "inferiority" as a man and the need to prove
> oneself by "getting a white women", the symbol of the "ultimate" conquest.

agree totally. wrong measuring stick by far, but an easy trap to fall into.

> encouragements from parents since day one will definitely helps. I moved to
> Vancouver because of the high population of Asians plus multiculturalism is
> encouraged and forced assimilation to Anglo culture is not, and my two
> kids(yes my dating days are over) will have a great school social life
> without feeling left out or different. Looking at the high school kids here,
> I saw many AM with hot WF and vice versa.

well, certainly that is one strategy, move somewhere where you're less of a
minority. not an option for everyone, but i'm sorta convinced that it's
probably the easiest of many choices. of course this generates the usual
complaints about chinese (or asians in general) being too "sticky"/clannish,
but that's easy to say when you're in the majority, so screw that. plus w/
representative democracy, it makes sense to generate a power base in a locale
where your concerns are addressed, if nowhere else. being 1 % everywhere
does you less good than being 10% in one place and nearly 0 everywhere else.

msg

[anita jamar]

> Our social dilemma is analogous to that of black females. They are also
> socially alienated, but for them it is because they are considered
> "deficiently feminine."

Oh really! I haven't noticed that I or any of my Black female
friends are socially isolated or any less feminine than anyone else. That's news
to me. So tell me, who says this and what is it based on? Personally, I believe
this is just another stereotype like Asian men are less masculine or Asian women
are more feminine. Where do these stereotypes come from? Everyone needs to
question them instead of quoting them like gospel truth.

> They complain about how their men prefer white women

Some do and some don't.....same as Asian men do here (very
frequently) about Asian women w/ White dudes. Some Black women who date White
guys get it from Black men. Apparently, alot of people believe that most people
(ie Balck women) have so little to do than sit around and complain about who is
dating who. Most of the Black women (including myself) hope that people are
content w/ the person they've chosen. After all, do we need any more unhappy
people in the world?

> , and of course white women are attracted to black men because they are
> considered "abundantly masculine."

Once again, a stereotype. What makes Black men any different to
anyone else? I've seen all types of men of many races and would not say that
Black men rate higher in the masculinity arena than other folks. Is this a
euphemistic way of stating that Black man- penis thing again? Once again,
another stereotype.

> Nonetheless, I think Black females deal with it better than we do. They seem

> to gather strength from each other.

No offense, but I think you may have seen that movie "Jungle
Fever" 1 time too many. Most Black women don't spend their time sitting around
and complaining about bm/wf and "girlfriending" each other. Hopefully, most
women don't base their self-esteem on the fact that some guy is dating another
woman. Frankly that's desparate. Why should a Black woman feel bad because some
Black guy is w/ a White woman? This post and many others make
it seem that Black women and Asian men are some sad lonely unwanted people
because some Asian women are w/ White men and and some Black men are w/ white
women. See a pattern here? Why should people base their worth, attractiveness,
and whatever else based on whether or not some White person is interested in a
relationship w/ you? That's really buying into this fake idea of being accepted.
Do you think that White people sit around w/ their self-worth on their shoulder
worrying about whether or not other people find Whites (gender fill in blank)
attractive? Well then, why should we?

[Andrea Locarno]

In article <36A8B9...@geocities.com>,

troj...@geocities.com wrote:
> Simon Lee wrote:
> >
> >
> > Men, do something about it before it's too late, go to the gym, update your
> > look and please don't be shy with women, go up and ask, that's how all white
> > guys get our women while you guys are standing at the corner telling your

> > equally shy friends about how good that asian girl looks. I did my part,
> > but I can only convert one asian female. Please help.
>
> Yea, you speak like as if white American men walk, talk, and make women
> swoon like Don Juan. I don't think you have seen everything.
>

This is so true. Asian guys are such scrawny wimps with little dicks, no
muscle, and no style. White guys are cool because they act like real men.
And they treat their women better. I just want to enter my house justified.

[Andrea Locarno]

In article <36A8B9...@geocities.com>,
troj...@geocities.com wrote:
> Simon Lee wrote:
> >
> >
> > Men, do something about it before it's too late, go to the gym, update your
> > look and please don't be shy with women, go up and ask, that's how all white
> > guys get our women while you guys are standing at the corner telling your
> > equally shy friends about how good that asian girl looks. I did my part,
> > but I can only convert one asian female. Please help.
>
> Yea, you speak like as if white American men walk, talk, and make women
> swoon like Don Juan. I don't think you have seen everything.
>

It's so true. Asian guys are such scrawny, shy, awkward, little dicked wimps
with no muscle and no class. White men look like men and they treat their

[dragon...@my-dejanews.com]

In article <78m5hn$4mt$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,

asian...@hotmail.com (moo shu guy) wrote:
>>

> do you think? i imagine you're not an actor, nor am i one. but after
> struggling for n years working in a copy shop while waiting for those few
> opportunities, how easy is that to pass up? i can't honestly say what i'd
> do. because i've devoted most of my life to something else, even if i was an
> actor i'd probably be less eager than someone whose only goal was to act.
> and if one of the few crumbs tossed their way was this... well... hmm...
> maybe he had a vision how he would do it and the director/producers
> overruled, "you must be a total loser w/ no self esteem, that's what the part
> is supposed to be."
>

Well, no matter what you do in life, you must never compromise your identity
to make a buck.

>
> yes yes yes. i think i will fire off a quickie to nbc to say that was pretty
> unfunny. i don't think it's worthy of a full-length rant, but maybe whoever
> will think twice about rehiring that writer, or that writer will think twice
> about being so stereotypical and uncreative.

They can't help it. Even a friend of mine for 10+ years from Missouri can't
shake the stereotypes of Asian even after knowing me personally for more than
a decade. Sure, he is friendly and we are best friends and that but when it
came down to what to expect from an Asian, he naturally digs deep down into
his deep resevoir of Asian stereotypes for justifications. I tried to expose
him to more Asian cultural stuffs but still you can't just erase a lifetime
of propoganda just like that. So you see, it'll be a cycle with kids being
brought up with these stereotypes of Asian. Personally, I do not think it is
in their best interest to continue to pigeon hole others like that.

>
> to a certain extent, yes we should "stop looking for affimation" where it
> won't come from, but for some/many that's not an option unless you have a
> very restricted world. the mumbo-jumbo of eurocentric beliefs is everywhere,
> it infests our education, our economic interactions, our social interactions
> (unless we're fortunate enough to be somewhere where that mumbo jumbo is
> lessened).
>

We have choices. And wherever we are, we have to keep fighting for our rights.
Resignations will only prolong the suffering.

> agree totally. wrong measuring stick by far, but an easy trap to fall into.
>
>

Yes. It's easy if you are whitewashed. I dated women of races but I married
a chinese whose ancestors came from the same region as mne ancestors in
China. We met in school and fell in love. Now, whenever I look at my
children, i am so proud that I didn't compromise my identity for the sake of
other people's stereotype of me.

> well, certainly that is one strategy, move somewhere where you're less of a
> minority. not an option for everyone, but i'm sorta convinced that it's
> probably the easiest of many choices. of course this generates the usual
> complaints about chinese (or asians in general) being too "sticky"/clannish,
> but that's easy to say when you're in the majority, so screw that. plus w/
> representative democracy, it makes sense to generate a power base in a locale
> where your concerns are addressed, if nowhere else. being 1 % everywhere
> does you less good than being 10% in one place and nearly 0 everywhere else.
>
> msg
>

Vancouver has about 30% Asian population and they are affluent in general.
There are a lot of resentment from the lower rung anglos but you don't feel
threatened by them because we are not powerless. Anyway, yes, my choice was
the easiest of choices and so far I have no complains. I think in general, the
community in Vancouver is more geared towards the future where Anglo-centric
powers are more diluted globally.

[anita jamar]

Full name wrote:

> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Anita, that's a very nice and thoughtful response. So are you seeing anyone?

Well, I got someone that I'm not too sure I want anymore, so the jury
is still deliberating! :0) Anita

[halb]

My (maybe overly) cynical impression is that commercial fiction, as
opposed to "art" stuff, seems usually to be about wish fulfillment,
and fantasy for the writers, directers, casting, and the target
audience. It is also combined with a certain political awareness. It
is about what they _want_ to see, -- what gratifies them. It may be
elevating, or it may be banal and insecure. It is whatever pushes
their buttons to keep watching, and whatever vents the conscious or
subconscious desires of the writers.

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:36:22 GMT, asian...@hotmail.com (moo shu guy)
wrote:

>so did anyone see the episode yesterday? opinions on "dr. lee"? i think it

>gets to the first point in my response below.

The honestly funny part was the fact that the comedic "Dr. Lee" guy
was weird, in a non-stereotypical way, who openly talked about sex.
Of course his character is seen as non-sexual needing to be liberated.
Maybe the joke was that it was a geeky asian science guy talking about
sex and passion.

As opposed to Ling, who is a caricature of an assertive asian woman
who fights for her rights, and thus is a "Dragon Lady," but while
coming across as aloof & cold, is still very sexual. However
antagonistic this character is, the actress -- Lucy Liu, does get
credit for successfully pulling it off, by still being an interesting,
somewhat likeable, 3-dimensional character.

>
>i was curious about it seeing the ads with this asian guy in pj's and a
>reasonably cute woman standing w/ him, some mention of "nurse who's in love
>w/ paul" (presumably that woman). there's plenty of room for comic
>exploration within that scenario (love triangle/rectangle), but the writer(s)
>(is reiser one of them?) had to fall into the same tired old types for the
>asian guy, for lack of desire, for lack of creativity, imho.
>
>man that script was bad. and maybe the actor was too, although i couldn't
>tell, because i cannot imagine how one could work with those lines he got.
>talk about a deaf audience. or deaf writers. kinda like the feedback loop
>for headbanging soundmen. they can't hear, so they crank it up to 11, and
>then the audience goes deaf too.

It was funny up to a point, and then it went a little beyond to become
psychologically obvious that it was a wish fantasy. When the wife of
that weirdly funny asian guy, called out the protagonist's name. The
ultra supportive ("yes" man) wife thing is really tiresome. It was
odd that I randomly flipped the channel and only watched that episode
of Mad about you. Otherwise, it's not my show.

It reminded me of Wayne's World 2, where the protagonist dude, (Mike
Myers -- the guy who did the "evil Confucious fortune cookie" skit on
SNL) does the wish fantasy where he must prove his superiority over
the asian male dad with his superior mastery in kung fu, in order to
win the hand of Tia Carrera.

This pattern is getting really obvious.

[Shekky]

anita jamar wrote in message <36B156CD...@hotmail.com>...

> Oh really! I haven't noticed that I or any of my Black
female
>friends are socially isolated or any less feminine than anyone else. That's
news
>to me. So tell me, who says this and what is it based on? Personally, I
believe
>this is just another stereotype like Asian men are less masculine or Asian
women
>are more feminine. Where do these stereotypes come from? Everyone needs to
>question them instead of quoting them like gospel truth.

I'm not trying to slip anything by anyone. Yes, these ARE
stereotypes...that's no secret. But, I am not quoting them like gospel. I
am simply trying to have a frank and honest discussion about the prevailing
stereotypes that DO exist in the real world. Neither you nor I can change
the fact that they exist. However, an open discussion of them can help all
parties involved deal with them better.

Do you submit that these stereotypes do not exist?

>Why should people base their worth, attractiveness,
>and whatever else based on whether or not some White person is interested
in a
>relationship w/ you? That's really buying into this fake idea of being
accepted.
>Do you think that White people sit around w/ their self-worth on their
shoulder
>worrying about whether or not other people find Whites (gender fill in
blank)
>attractive? Well then, why should we?

We shouldn't. But, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I am simply
reflecting reality. Most Asian girls who go out with white guys do it,
because it is a form of social validation. It is a status symbol like BMW,
Tommy Hilfiger, etc. If they don't go out with a white guy, they are afraid
their friends will think there is something wrong with them..."guess she's
not GOOD ENOUGH for a white guy." I think to a lesser extent black men have
the same motivations for seeking white girlfriends. I'm not saying it's
right or healthy. I'm simply stating what goes on in the real world.

[anita jamar]

I'm not trying to slip anything by anyone. Yes, these ARE

> stereotypes...that's no secret. But, I am not quoting them like gospel. I
> am simply trying to have a frank and honest discussion about the prevailing
> stereotypes that DO exist in the real world.

Shekky, I didn't mean to sound so harsh. What I said wasn't
directed at you per se, but just at some basic notions.

> Neither you nor I can change
> the fact that they exist. However, an open discussion of them can help all
> parties involved deal with them better.

True enough.

>
>
> Do you submit that these stereotypes do not exist?

Absolutely not. I just say that I personally don't believe them. I
also say that we should all take into account were these things come from and
why they are there in the 1st place.

>
>
> >Why should people base their worth, attractiveness,
> >and whatever else based on whether or not some White person is interested
> in a
> >relationship w/ you? That's really buying into this fake idea of being
> accepted.
> >Do you think that White people sit around w/ their self-worth on their
> shoulder
> >worrying about whether or not other people find Whites (gender fill in
> blank)
> >attractive? Well then, why should we?
>

> Most Asian girls who go out with white guys do it,
> because it is a form of social validation. It is a status symbol like BMW,
> Tommy Hilfiger, etc. If they don't go out with a white guy, they are afraid
> their friends will think there is something wrong with them..."guess she's
> not GOOD ENOUGH for a white guy."

Excellent point. I have observed this as well. I wonder why this
is. I kind of feel uncomfortable saying this, but I have noticed that my Asian
girlfriends generally have a lower self-esteem than women of other groups that I
know. It seems that AFs seek WMs more than women of other ethnicities. There's
got to be something going on within the Asian community which makes it more
attractive to AFs in quite large #s to seek WMs as opposed to other minority
women. I have search engined "asian women" and "mail order
brides" (I did that one because I can't really believe that people do it) and
you'd be surprised at how many things you find. The "Asian women" ones are
mostly porno and the "mail order brides" ones are also overwhelmingly Asian
women. The porno thing I understand because women in general are marketed as sex
objects (esp. on the 'net), but the "mail order bride" thing stumped me. You
should see some of these women, they are GORGEOUS! Why in the world would they
be shamelessly advertising themselves on the internet for complete strangers?
They all seemed to want "American" or "European" men (read White-like there are
no other men in America or Europe). I guess the question I should ask you, is
what is going on in the Asian community where these women feel they have to go
thru these lengths?
Is it that the Asian community in general and AFs in particular want to "be
White" (whatever that is)? Why is having a White dude such a status symbol to
them and does the same apply about AMs towards WFs? I can understand it if the
man in question is "da bomb" all around, but just because he's White? To be
honest, this is going to be superficial but completely candid, many of the Asian
girls I see and know do pick loser ugly WMs. I have wondered if they would take
the same garbage off a AM or BM or whatever. I just hope, for their sakes, that
these women are w/ a guy they truely like instead of a status symbol. If not,
they are going to cheapen themselves and be used by these men. My observation is
that no man can stand a desparate woman for long and women w/ values like these
ARE desparate. IMHO. What's your take?

> I think to a lesser extent black men have
> the same motivations for seeking white girlfriends.

Well, these days a Black man that says this out loud will get
busted pretty hard by both BFs and other BMs (some WWs too). This
WW-status-symbol-thing is looked at as slave mentality and played out. This "any
WW will do" thing is banished to the 70s. :0) If they think it, they'd better
keep it quiet!

> I'm not saying it's
> right or healthy. I'm simply stating what goes on in the real world.

Sorry again about sounding so harsh.... I'm interested in
hearing intellegent theories about this (not the Asiaphile vs AMs
stuff).
chEErs,

Anita

[Cro...@my-dejanews.com]

the problem is not with Asian males but a white male dominated system that
has acted historically to objectify Asian women. For white males the image
of an effeminent Asian male has acted as a way to "control" a perceived
threat. this strategy is not new, white america has constantly used
blatantly wrong steroetypes to control, or at least attempted to control,
various minority groups. If you trace the development of American
stereotypes, we see the gradual portrayal of Asian men as being feminine,
asexual, and nerdy. at the same time, stereotypes have portrayed Asian
American women as being seductive and sexual. more importantly, media
portrayals of Asian American women have always been that of "hand maids" for
white men. an example can be seen in that one television show where Maggie
Han plays a top paid model who continually runs around and does errands for a
middle aged, overweight, white detective. no doubt then, this leads to the
erroneous perception that any white man can also possess a beautiful Asian
woman simply due to the fact that he is white. for their part many Asian
sisters have bought into the belief that they too can only be fulfilled if
they can elevate their social status by dating only white men. the attitude
here is still that of objectification, as long as a white man is not
elevating the asian woman to the status of an equal, it is alright to be with
a "minority" this is the same type of logic used to enslave and rape black
female slaves. the relationship becomes one of domination and subordination.
as for the alienation of asian men in society, i must disagree. while many
asian american men may feel inferior in some way, we must ask why they feel
this is so. what messages are our brothers getting? perhaps the media which
constantly bombards us with images of the nerd asian may foster such beliefs.
why are black men seen to be "overly masculine"? once again, even this image
has it's roots in negative stereotypes which were meant to control. black
men have historically been painted as sexual predators who prey on innocent,
and virtuous, white women. thus, they were painted as beasts who, unlike
white men, were not capable of controlling their "primordial urges." at the
same time, black women were seen also as sexual deviants. this justified the
raping and victimizing of black women. many white slave owners who raped
their black female slaves often cited her "voodoo sexuality" and not his own
moral corruption as the cause of the act. these stereotypes were meant to
reaffirm white male superiority (at least in morality). we, as a group, are
also guilty of perpetuating this lie. an example can be seen in works such
as Amy Tan's Joy Luck Club where Asian men are portrayed as being
undesireable. however, she doesn't attack the causes of this
undesireability. instead, she has turned her own misguided attempt at ultra-
assimilation and has used it to attack her Asian brothers. perhaps the
question must be asked of these so called "hordes of Asian women" (in a
recent academic study less than a quarter of Asian women stated that they
prefered dating/marrying white men to Asian men)is what is it about
themselves that they find so objectionable that they must "escape" their
race? In article <78i921$1h1q$1...@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, "Shekky"
<she...@excite.com> wrote:

>
> dragon...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
> <78hpik$g51$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >Robert,
> >
> >I have to agree with you 100%. It's not all physical attribute and all
> that.
> >Attitude is the most important thing. You can't walk up to a woman and
> expect
> >to win her when you already feel you've lost. I didn't have any problems
> >dating girls of all backgrounds and I don't think most Asian guys should
> have
> >any problems either. It's in your attitude, outlook, sense of humor and
> self
> >esteem. I know this guy who looks like a nerd but went out with totally hot
> >chicks(all races) and the reason he's able to was because he hold his own
> >ground, emotionally stable and don't take shit. Girls respect that.
>

> You are correct in saying it's not all about physical attributes. I
> agree...attitude is the most important thing. Women, especially young
> women, are attracted to a guy who has a sense of confidence and a sense of
> comfortable social adjustment. In other words, a guy who is comfortable in
> his own skin, as it were. The problem is that too many Asian males lack
> these "social" qualities and are therefore unattractive to women. The
> physical issues I stated previously play a large part in this. The fact
> that AMs are considered "deficiently masculine" has a damaging psychological
> effect. For this reason and many others, the AM in America is the most

> socially alienated group in our society. It's hard to develop a strong

> sense of self-esteem and a positive "attitude" under these conditions. I
> didn't say it's impossible...just difficult, an added barrier.
>

> Our social dilemma is analogous to that of black females. They are also
> socially alienated, but for them it is because they are considered

> "deficiently feminine." They complain about how their men prefer white
> women, and of course white women are attracted to black men because they are
> considered "abundantly masculine." Nonetheless, I think black females deal

> with it better than we do. They seem to gather strength from each other.

> On the other hand, Asian guys seem to view their Asian male peers as enemies
> or rivals, not just regarding girls but about everything. There is less a

> sense of comradery, so this adds to the alienation.

>
> To get back to the point, personality and attitude are the most important
> assets in order to achieve normal, healthy relationships with the opposite
> sex. I just hope that guys who are frustrated about their love life try
> hard to not let their social alienation destroy them, and try to develop the
> proper attitude and personality.
>
>

Don't go beyond others' expectations of you.
-Legalism

[stev...@my-dejanews.com]

Hi Simon,

You're examining a very small fraction of the world's complement of Asian
women. How many live in the US? How many in the NYC area, specifically?
Worldwide, I'd say the Asian male-female relationships heavily outnumber the
white man-Asian female couples you cite.

But the US is still predominantly a Caucasian country. I see nothing alarming
in your observations, as they were conducted in one of America's largest
metropolises.

Just my 2¢, of course.

In article <783mgj$t5l$2...@news01.li.net>,
"Simon Lee" <the_ni...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know if this is only happening in New York City, but within the last
> couple of years, I'm beginning to see more and more asian women dating or
> marrying white men. On the other hand, I don't see any asian men dating
> asian women. In fact, there was one time when I was trying to prove this
> point to my girlfriend(she's chinese) at south street seeport(a popular hang
> out for young chinese people), we sat there for half an hour and this is
> what we saw:
>
> We saw 14 asian women dating white men (in two cases, blacks).
> Only one asian man was with a white woman(and she's ugly and fat).

>
> Of those white men, they usually look twice as old as the women, and most of
> them just aren't very good looking and those asian women are usually very
> good looking, they could've done a lot better.
>

> What's up with this?
> PS: I have nothing against asian women, in fact, I have seen a lot of asian
> women dating asian guys, BUT ONLY IN CHINATOWN.