R.I.P. JENNY CHANG, 15
w00...@my-dejanews.com
http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
**** The entire Cleveland, Ohio community has been stunned this week by the
brutal slaying of Jenny Chang, 15, by a stalker who shot this high school
freshman girl as she walked to school, then stood over her and fired more
bullets into her.
The obsessed stalker, Scott Strothers, 21, had been harrassing the entire
Chang family, originally from Shanghai, China, for several months--he had
previously tried to firebomb the family garage, smashed windows, poured glue
in the gas tank of the family car, and made numerous harrassing phone calls
to the home. There were also reports he sent Internet messages.
Stalker Strothers' contact with the Chang family began when he meet one of
the Chang boys when they both went to school at Ohio State Univeristy.
According to an article in today's Cleveland Plain Dealer, Strothers resented
the Chang boy's academic achievement. Strothers dropped out of college. The
PD also reports that once he got to know the Changs, he felt the family
"hadn't suffered enough." So he planned to murder this entire family of
successful Chinese immigrants (Mr. Chang is a mathematic professor at
Cleveland State University.)
Strothers also developed an obsession with Chang's younger sister, who, much
younger than Strothers, rebuffed his advances. Earlier this week, Scott
Strothers stalked and gunned down Penny Chang, 15, a high school freshman as
she walked to school and her classmates screamed. The story has been page one
in Cleveland this week. Last night there was a ceremony at the murder site
for Penny Chang. Her father was interviewed this week, crying and angrily
questioning why there were no "human rights for victims" and why his family's
harrassment continued after he reported it.
The crime occurred right in front of a police station, and Strothers was
immediately apprehended. His harrassment of the Chang family is on police
record. Yesterday, however, authorities said that Strothers will not face the
death penalty for killing Penny Chang because he did not commit a capital
offense--in Ohio that means he would have to kill at least TWO people, a
police officer, or have been committing a felony at the time of the murder,
in order to face the death penalty. So he's looking at life, possibly....
based on our local laws.
Posted at
4:40 a.m. EST
Friday, March 19, 1999
The Ohio Directory
Search for Ohio-based
Web Sites
Suspect indicted in sidewalk slaying of 15-year-old girl
CLEVELAND (AP) -- A man has been indicted in the sidewalk shooting
death of the 15-year-old girl who her family says had spurned his advances.
Scott Strothers, 21, was indicted Thursday on charges of aggravated murder
and carrying a concealed weapon in Tuesday's slaying of Penny Chang, 15,
both of suburban Shaker Heights.
Cuyahoga County Prosecutor William Mason said his office would seek a
life prison term if Strothers is convicted.
The suspect's father, Kenneth Strothers, said police seized one item when
they searched his Cleveland house: an opened box of earplugs similar to the
ones his son was wearing at the time of the shooting.
``That's brilliant planning, isn't it?'' Kenneth Strothers told The Plain
Dealer in an interview published today. ``He wore earplugs. It's like him to
think of something like that.''
The victim was killed while walking to school near Shaker Heights city hall
and the police department. Strothers was arrested within minutes near the
scene.
Kenneth Strothers said his son and the victim's older brother, Sean, lived
together as freshmen in a dorm at Ohio State University, which they both
attended on scholarship. Stothers later dropped out.
Last year, Kenneth Strothers said, his son told him that he wanted to kill the
Chang family and then kill himself. The father said he alerted Scott's doctors
and Shaker Heights police.
He said Scott was shy around girls -- he had a ``female phobia,'' his father
said -- and never had a girlfriend.
discusion of race harrassment/meruder at:
http://forums.cleveland.com/forums/get/watercooler.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Walter Lee
My sympathy to the Chang family.
Walter lee.
w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
>
> **** The entire Cleveland, Ohio community has been stunned this week by
> the brutal slaying of Jenny Chang, 15, by a stalker who shot this igh school
> freshman girl as she walked to school, then stood over her and fired more
> bullets into her.
>
> The obsessed stalker, Scott Strothers, 21, had been harrassing the entire
> Chang family, originally from Shanghai, China, for several months--he had
> previously tried to firebomb the family garage, smashed windows, poured glue
> in the gas tank of the family car, and made numerous harrassing phone calls
> to the home. There were also reports he sent Internet messages.
>
> Stalker Strothers' contact with the Chang family began when he meet one of
> the Chang boys when they both went to school at Ohio State Univeristy.
> According to an article in today's Cleveland Plain Dealer, Strothers resented
> the Chang boy's academic achievement. Strothers dropped out of college. The
> PD also reports that once he got to know the Changs, he felt the family
> "hadn't suffered enough." So he planned to murder this entire family of
> successful Chinese immigrants (Mr. Chang is a mathematic professor at
> Cleveland State University.)
>
> Strothers also developed an obsession with Chang's younger sister, who, much
> younger than Strothers, rebuffed his advances. Earlier this week, Scott
> Strothers stalked and gunned down Penny Chang, 15, a high school freshman as
> she walked to school and her classmates screamed. The story has been page one
> in Cleveland this week. Last night there was a ceremony at the murder site
> for Penny Chang. Her father was interviewed this week, crying and angrily
> questioning why there were no "human rights for victims" and why his family's
> harrassment continued after he reported it.
>
I wonder if the Changs or the local police new that
Mr. Strothers also had access to handguns?
> The crime occurred right in front of a police station, and Strothers was
> immediately apprehended. His harrassment of the Chang family is on police
> record. Yesterday, however, authorities said that Strothers will not face the
> death penalty for killing Penny Chang because he did not commit a capital
> offense--in Ohio that means he would have to kill at least TWO people, a
> police officer, or have been committing a felony at the time of the murder,
> in order to face the death penalty. So he's looking at life, possibly....
> based on our local laws.
>
However, Mr. Scott Struthers also may faces additional
Federal Hate Crime Charges as well. It sounds as if
there is enough evidence to indicated this - previous
email/correspondence from Mr. Strothers would be
adequate proof considering the circumstances.
Mr. Scott Struthers' most probable defense will be one
of insanity....However, he will probably face
multiple charges and a request for consecutive prison terms.
Murdering kids on their way to school is a matter
of public safety ...
> Posted at
> 4:40 a.m. EST
> Friday, March 19, 1999
>
> The Ohio Directory
> Search for Ohio-based
> Web Sites
>
> Suspect indicted in sidewalk slaying of 15-year-old girl
>
> CLEVELAND (AP) -- A man has been indicted in the sidewalk shooting
> death of the 15-year-old girl who her family says had spurned his advances.
>
> Scott Strothers, 21, was indicted Thursday on charges of aggravated murder
> and carrying a concealed weapon in Tuesday's slaying of Penny Chang, 15,
> both of suburban Shaker Heights.
>
> Cuyahoga County Prosecutor William Mason said his office would seek a
> life prison term if Strothers is convicted.
>
Homocidal psychopaths with guns do endanger public safety.
> The suspect's father, Kenneth Strothers, said police seized one item when
> they searched his Cleveland house: an opened box of earplugs similar to the
> ones his son was wearing at the time of the shooting.
>
> ``That's brilliant planning, isn't it?'' Kenneth Strothers told The Plain
> Dealer in an interview published today. ``He wore earplugs. It's like him to
> think of something like that.''
>
> The victim was killed while walking to school near Shaker Heights city hall
> and the police department. Strothers was arrested within minutes near the
> scene.
>
> Kenneth Strothers said his son and the victim's older brother, Sean, lived
> together as freshmen in a dorm at Ohio State University, which they both
> attended on scholarship. Stothers later dropped out.
>
I suppose that Scott Strothers is the one who dropped out of
the University?
> Last year, Kenneth Strothers said, his son told him that he wanted to kill the
> Chang family and then kill himself. The father said he alerted Scott's doctors
> and Shaker Heights police.
It sounds like his father is hinting that
Scott Strothers also was under some psychotherapy?
Did the firearm belong to Scott Strothers or did Scott
illegal procured the firearm?
retaliator
that punk's head!
jt
w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7ctrc6$1o8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
>
>**** The entire Cleveland, Ohio community has been stunned this week by the
>brutal slaying of Jenny Chang, 15, by a stalker who shot this high school
>The crime occurred right in front of a police station, and Strothers was
>immediately apprehended. His harrassment of the Chang family is on police
>record. Yesterday, however, authorities said that Strothers will not face
the
>death penalty for killing Penny Chang because he did not commit a capital
>offense--in Ohio that means he would have to kill at least TWO people, a
>police officer, or have been committing a felony at the time of the murder,
>in order to face the death penalty. So he's looking at life, possibly....
>based on our local laws.
>
>
> Posted at
> 4:40 a.m. EST
> Friday, March 19, 1999
>
>
>The Ohio Directory
>Search for Ohio-based
>Web Sites
>
>
>Suspect indicted in sidewalk slaying of 15-year-old girl
>
>CLEVELAND (AP) -- A man has been indicted in the sidewalk shooting
>death of the 15-year-old girl who her family says had spurned his advances.
>
>Scott Strothers, 21, was indicted Thursday on charges of aggravated murder
>and carrying a concealed weapon in Tuesday's slaying of Penny Chang, 15,
>both of suburban Shaker Heights.
>
>Cuyahoga County Prosecutor William Mason said his office would seek a
>life prison term if Strothers is convicted.
>
>The suspect's father, Kenneth Strothers, said police seized one item when
>they searched his Cleveland house: an opened box of earplugs similar to the
>ones his son was wearing at the time of the shooting.
>
>``That's brilliant planning, isn't it?'' Kenneth Strothers told The Plain
>Dealer in an interview published today. ``He wore earplugs. It's like him
to
>think of something like that.''
>
>The victim was killed while walking to school near Shaker Heights city hall
>and the police department. Strothers was arrested within minutes near the
> scene.
>
>Kenneth Strothers said his son and the victim's older brother, Sean, lived
>together as freshmen in a dorm at Ohio State University, which they both
>attended on scholarship. Stothers later dropped out.
>
>Last year, Kenneth Strothers said, his son told him that he wanted to kill
the
>Chang family and then kill himself. The father said he alerted Scott's
doctors
>and Shaker Heights police.
>
Check
moo shu guy wrote in message <7cuouv$4hi$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>victim's name corrected in title.
>
>a totally sick fuck. another example that hating asian males
>and "loving" asian females is not mutually exclusive.
Huh?
The same type of murder happened recently here (Seattle) with an obsessive
male (white) murdering the whole friggin family (white as well).
Any words of wisdom to characterize that? Or does having an asian there
make for an easier intellectual assessment?
Perhaps males by their nature are at odds with each other regardless of
race, and the rather universal societal ideas granting some sort of
assumed male control over women (which asian culture is no stranger to)
lays the foundation for attacks like these regardless of race.
For the rest to play out you just need fraying fringe material, again
regardless of race.
Tom Y
moo shu guy
a totally sick fuck. another example that hating asian males
and "loving" asian females is not mutually exclusive.
msg
> > According to an article in today's Cleveland Plain Dealer, Strothers
resented
> > the Chang boy's academic achievement. Strothers dropped out of college. The
> > PD also reports that once he got to know the Changs, he felt the family
> > "hadn't suffered enough." So he planned to murder this entire family of
> > successful Chinese immigrants (Mr. Chang is a mathematic professor at
> > Cleveland State University.)
> > Strothers also developed an obsession with Chang's younger sister, who, much
> > younger than Strothers, rebuffed his advances. Earlier this week, Scott
> > Strothers stalked and gunned down Penny Chang, 15, a high school freshman as
> > she walked to school and her classmates screamed. The story has been page
one
> > in Cleveland this week. Last night there was a ceremony at the murder site
> > for Penny Chang. Her father was interviewed this week, crying and angrily
> > questioning why there were no "human rights for victims" and why his
family's
> > harrassment continued after he reported it.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Tomoyuki Tanaka
is this killer an Asiaphile in general?
is this killer white?
did she go by both Penny and Jenny?
>
>http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
>
> **** The entire Cleveland, Ohio community has been stunned this
> week by the brutal slaying of Jenny Chang, 15, by a stalker who
> shot this high school freshman girl as she walked to school,
> then stood over her and fired more bullets into her.
>
> The obsessed stalker, Scott Strothers, 21, had been harrassing
> the entire Chang family, originally from Shanghai, China, for
> several months--he had previously tried to firebomb the family
> garage, smashed windows, poured glue in the gas tank of the
> family car, and made numerous harrassing phone calls to the
> home. There were also reports he sent Internet messages.
w00...@my-dejanews.com
(immigrants from Shanghai, China) was harrassed for several months in a
suburb of Cleveland, Ohio by Scott Strothers, 21, who tried to burn their
garage, poured glue in the gas tank of the family car, made harrassing phone
calls, etc. On Tuesday, the youngest daughter, Penny, was stalked by
Strothers. He gunned the high school freshman down in a cross walk as the
she was walking to school--so premeditated that he wore earplugs as he hunted
her. Click here for AP story on the killing:
http://www.ohio.com/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
What causes such hate? I wish this creep would get the death sentence.
Tonight there was a candlelight ceremony in Penny's memory, attended by her
parents and many white, black, and Asian people including many of Penny's
young classmates and professor Chang's college students--many calling for
legal reform/protection from stalking and hate crimes. A lot tears, and
anger. Today's (Friday) Cleveland Plain Dealer reported the following
(Strother's dad is sad his son won't get into med school?...wow) Please read:
Suspect in Shaker slaying
can't get death sentence
Scott Strothers was indicted yesterday on an aggravated murder charge in the
shooting death Tuesday of Penny Chang, 15, but will not face the possibility
of the death sentence.
Strothers, 21, was indicted by a Cuyahoga County grand jury on one count each
of aggravated murder and carrying a concealed weapon. But the murder count
does not carry a death-penalty specification as some, including Strother's
father, had expected.
Under Ohio law, there are several circumstances under which a person accused
of murder could face the death, such as killing a police officer, committing
multiple homocides or committing other serious felonies during the commission
of a homocide. (W00dyee inserts: This is the insane part. You mean stalking
and brutally gunning down a little girl--then shooting her some more after
she fell down to ensure she died--in and of itself isn't a serious enough
crime to merit capital punishment???? Ohio laws are asinine!)
Because the grand jury found that none of these conditions applied, Strothers
cannot be charged with capital murder.
Cuyahoga County Prosecutor William Mason said his office would push for life
imprisonment for Strothers if he is convicted.
"The defendant hunted this young girl continuously for months, then he
ruthlessly killed her," Mason said.
In an interview yesterday morning, Strother's father, Kenneth said, "My son
could've gone to medical school, but instead he's facing a capital murder
case."
He could not be reached to comment about the indictments last night.
DAD DESCRIBES A TROUBLED SON
SHAKER HEIGHTS--Kenneth Strothers said police officers investigating the death
of Penny Chang took only one item when they searched his Cleveland house: an
opened box of earplugs.
They told him they were the same kind of earplugs that his son Scott was
wearing to muffle the bang of the 9mm pistol he fired at Penny, 15, as she
made her way to school, he said.
"That's brilliant planning, isn't it?" Kenneth Strothers said yesterday. "He
wore earplugs.It's like him to think of something like that."
Police and witnesses said Scott, 21, sought out Penny from a throng of Shaker
Heights morning commuters Tuesday and fired from only a few feet away. After
she fell, witnesses said, Strothers fired more shots.
Scott is being kept without bond in Shaker Heights City Jail, where his father
hopes reality will finally set in. His son had escaped the possibility of the
death sentence but faces a possible life sentence.
Shaker Heights Police Chief Walter Ugrinic declined yesterday to address
whether Scott Strothers was wearing earplugs or what was confiscated in the
Tuesday night search of Kenneth Strothers' home.
In recent months, Kenneth Strothers said he had begged his son to forget about
the Chang family, with whom he said Scott had a "love-hate relationship."
He said Scott seemed to feel at times he was competing academically with
Penny's brother, Sean, who graduated with Scott from Shaker Heights High
School in 1996.
He said Scott also felt wronged by his unrequited love for Penny, although he
rarely discussed his feelings about her with his father.
But last year, Kenneth Strothers said his son told him that he wanted to kill
the Chang family and then kill himself. He said he alerted Scott's doctors and
Shaker Heights police.
"He couldn't get them out of his mind," Kenneth Strothers said. "He felt like
they hadn't suffered."
> . . . .
Last summer, Strothers said, other relatives told him that they were
concerned about Scott. By October, he was arrested for telephone harassment,
using a sling-shot to fire rocks through the front window, attempting to set
the garage on fire, and putting a glue-like liquid in the gas tank of the
Chang's car.
Strothers said the slingshot was his.
"I used to use it for hunting," he said. "It's like a low-powered rifle. I
told him, 'Scott, you could've killed someone if someone was standing on the
other side of that window."
M C Fong
No one, asian or black, immigrant or native, deserves this. I can't
understand why the father of the killer didnt do anything knowing what his
son said he wanted to do.
w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7ctrc6$1o8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
>
>**** The entire Cleveland, Ohio community has been stunned this week by the
>brutal slaying of Jenny Chang, 15, by a stalker who shot this high school
>freshman girl as she walked to school, then stood over her and fired more
>bullets into her.
>
>The obsessed stalker, Scott Strothers, 21, had been harrassing the entire
>Chang family, originally from Shanghai, China, for several months--he had
>previously tried to firebomb the family garage, smashed windows, poured
glue
>in the gas tank of the family car, and made numerous harrassing phone calls
>to the home. There were also reports he sent Internet messages.
>
>Stalker Strothers' contact with the Chang family began when he meet one of
>the Chang boys when they both went to school at Ohio State Univeristy.
>According to an article in today's Cleveland Plain Dealer, Strothers
resented
>the Chang boy's academic achievement. Strothers dropped out of college.
The
>PD also reports that once he got to know the Changs, he felt the family
>"hadn't suffered enough." So he planned to murder this entire family of
>successful Chinese immigrants (Mr. Chang is a mathematic professor at
>Cleveland State University.)
>
>Strothers also developed an obsession with Chang's younger sister, who,
much
>younger than Strothers, rebuffed his advances. Earlier this week, Scott
>Strothers stalked and gunned down Penny Chang, 15, a high school freshman
as
>she walked to school and her classmates screamed. The story has been page
one
>in Cleveland this week. Last night there was a ceremony at the murder site
>for Penny Chang. Her father was interviewed this week, crying and angrily
>questioning why there were no "human rights for victims" and why his
family's
>harrassment continued after he reported it.
>
>Dealer in an interview published today. ``He wore earplugs. It's like him
to
>think of something like that.''
>
>The victim was killed while walking to school near Shaker Heights city hall
>and the police department. Strothers was arrested within minutes near the
> scene.
>
>Kenneth Strothers said his son and the victim's older brother, Sean, lived
>together as freshmen in a dorm at Ohio State University, which they both
>attended on scholarship. Stothers later dropped out.
>
>Last year, Kenneth Strothers said, his son told him that he wanted to kill
the
>Chang family and then kill himself. The father said he alerted Scott's
doctors
>and Shaker Heights police.
>
>He said Scott was shy around girls -- he had a ``female phobia,'' his
father
>said -- and never had a girlfriend.
>
>discusion of race harrassment/meruder at:
>http://forums.cleveland.com/forums/get/watercooler.html
>
Hugh Bonney
: victim's name corrected in title.
: a totally sick fuck. another example that hating asian males
: and "loving" asian females is not mutually exclusive.
There wasn't anything in the news stories to suggest that the
criminal was other than a demented mental case; that is, the
first sentence was right. Why was it that with so much clear
warning that nothing was done to prevent the murder? The warnings
sound like more than 20/20 hindsight. The attacks on the Chang
house are more than over the top. Unless the Changs refused to
prosecute, the local law enforcement needs to answer some very
pointed questions. A person of the age involved doing that kind
of thing needs to be under the formal control of law enforcement.
There's nothing in his conduct that concepts of civil liberty
would defend - from chasing the underage girl to attacking the
house. Strothers shouldn't have been wnadering around outdoors
without an attendant and a white jacket with really long sleeves.
So why was he?
Hugh--- (ng alt.true-crime omitted)
: > > According to an article in today's Cleveland Plain Dealer, Strothers
: resented
: > > the Chang boy's academic achievement. Strothers dropped out of college. The
: > > PD also reports that once he got to know the Changs, he felt the family
: > > "hadn't suffered enough." So he planned to murder this entire family of
: > > successful Chinese immigrants (Mr. Chang is a mathematic professor at
: > > Cleveland State University.)
: > > Strothers also developed an obsession with Chang's younger sister, who, much
: > > younger than Strothers, rebuffed his advances. Earlier this week, Scott
: > > Strothers stalked and gunned down Penny Chang, 15, a high school freshman as
: > > she walked to school and her classmates screamed. The story has been page
: one
: > > in Cleveland this week. Last night there was a ceremony at the murder site
: > > for Penny Chang. Her father was interviewed this week, crying and angrily
: > > questioning why there were no "human rights for victims" and why his
: family's
: > > harrassment continued after he reported it.
: -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
w00...@my-dejanews.com
***** Don't know. According to news reports, he'd never had a girlfriend in
his life. As a college student he was initially interested in Penny when she
was 13/14. That certainly makes him a borderline or outright pedophile. One
newspaper referred to him as a "borderline stalker." There, I think you could
drop the phrase "borderline." I've never liked the phrase Asiaphile, but even
I have to admit that he could be the poster boy for a lot of things bad......
Penny Chang was 15, a high school freshman. Her killer was 21, a college drop
out.
> is this killer white?
**** Yes, he is. He looks like what he is: a loser, slacker, college drop
out. He reminds me of that character on the cartoon Scooby-do, only sullen
looking. The PD has run his pictures and the TV news has shown him in court.
He has sort of long greasey looking hair falling in the eyes, and scraggy
facial hair. Stamp him: L-O-S-E-R.
>
> did she go by both Penny and Jenny?
***** No, she did not. I initially mistyped/made mistake in typing the
headline. I caught and fixed, and I note that moo shoo guy did the same as
well. My mistake.
>
> >
> >http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
> >
> > **** The entire Cleveland, Ohio community has been stunned this
> > week by the brutal slaying of Jenny Chang, 15, by a stalker who
> > shot this high school freshman girl as she walked to school,
> > then stood over her and fired more bullets into her.
> >
> > The obsessed stalker, Scott Strothers, 21, had been harrassing
> > the entire Chang family, originally from Shanghai, China, for
> > several months--he had previously tried to firebomb the family
> > garage, smashed windows, poured glue in the gas tank of the
> > family car, and made numerous harrassing phone calls to the
> > home. There were also reports he sent Internet messages.
>
> > Strothers also developed an obsession with Chang's younger
> > sister, who, much younger than Strothers, rebuffed his advances.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
w00...@my-dejanews.com
sponsored by several community organizations, Penny Chang's father spoke. He
had been given a list of names of young people who have been killed in
Cleveland for various reasons, drive-bys, etc. He said he was saddened to see
so many young lives snuffed out, like his daughter's. He said the violence
must stop. And stalking laws must change--as must the determination of what
constitutes a "capital offense" meriting the death penalty. If the stalker
had been trying to kidnap Penny, or if she had been a police officer, or if
he'd shot TWO people instead of just one, then he could get the death penalty
for this crime. But simply stalking and brutally murdering a little girl
isn't bad enough, I guess... so they say. Penny's dad also announced that his
daughter's organs had been donated (helping to destroy another stereotype of
Chinese, btw) and said he was happy to know that she was living on in others
already. Such a sweet, sad guy. (He is a mathematics professor at Cleveland
Stte University, from Shanghai.) Blacks, whites, and Asians attended--few dry
ears, covered heavily by local TV who are now joining in demands for reform
based on the Penny Chang murder. I believe that a new standard is
needed--"irreputable evidence"--for applying the death penalty. (Strothers
had been caught right in front of the police station where the shooting
occured, many witnesses saw him do it, his harrassment was recorded by the
police previously, so there is zero chance he didn't kill her... in such
murders, where a panel of judges could agree that there is no chance that it
could be found later that a person didn't commit the crime, I believe the
death penalty should be applied. To me, that's more relevant than the number
of people shot, or whether he was trying to commit a robbery or kidnap at the
time, or if the victim was a law enforcement officer. In the Penny Chang
case, he was caught on site, gun in hand, anbd there is no chance he isn't
the killer.)
Richard Lee
: victim's name corrected in title.
: a totally sick fuck. another example that hating asian males
: and "loving" asian females is not mutually exclusive.
Interesting.
This whole incident actually kind of reminds me of my own sister and all
her boyfriends who have hated my guts in the past.
Richard Lee
--
"You can't spell P-E-N-I-S without ESPN!"
--seen on a sign held by a student in the stands at the Utah vs.
Colorado St. basketball game in 1997, televised by ESPN.
Hugh Bonney
: http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
: **** The entire Cleveland, Ohio community has been stunned this week by the
: brutal slaying of Jenny Chang, 15, by a stalker who shot this high school
: freshman girl as she walked to school, then stood over her and fired more
: bullets into her.
: ...
: ...
: discusion of race harassment/murder at:
: http://forums.cleveland.com/forums/get/watercooler.html
On 3/20/99
http://www.cleveland.com/news
Has a photo of the defendant and a couple of stories listed.
http://www.cleveland.com/forums/watercooler.html
Has some discussion under the number 1053, but terms like hate
crime or race don't seem to appear anywhere. It just seems to be
your standard demented crime. It is a puzzle why this man was out
and around at all and questions need to be asked about that. It
doesn't make sense that he wasn't convicted previously. It never
mentions a restraining order either, apparently none was sought
but complaints to the police had been made. This was one case
where "broken windows" police work would have paid off and wouldn't
have been remotely questionable even without 20/20 hindsight.
H.---
w00...@my-dejanews.com
Hugh Bonney <hbo...@netcom.com> wrote:
> w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> : http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
>
> http://www.cleveland.com/news
> Has a photo of the defendant and a couple of stories listed.
**** Hugh, did you have any trouble opening these stories? (My computer keeps
crashing at that site for some reason) These "Cleveland Live" stories are
essentially the electronic version of stories that appear in the Plain
Dealer print newspaper. I had to re-key one of the stories, earlier. The
Cleveland Live Web site is murder to navigate, IMO....
>
> http://www.cleveland.com/forums/watercooler.html
> Has some discussion under the number 1053,
***** That is a very poignant tribute to Penny Chang from one of her
classmates at Shaker High School. There was also another message from a
fellow student who knew Penny. (They rotate the message board, which is run
by The Plain Dealer, but it should still be up there...)
but terms like hate
> crime or race don't seem to appear anywhere.
**** Scroll down a bit. It's there. This is Cleveland, where the population
is roughly 50/50 black - white... and Asian-American issues are invisible.
For instance, one poster ("presumably" black) used the killing to question
whether the media would have made such an issue of the killing is Penny had
been black and lived in Hough (FYI, Shaker Heights is an upscale
neighborhood; Hough is the black ghetto) A presumable Asian-American posted
back questioning why that person was lumping Asians in with whites, noting
that Asians DO experience their own prejudice, yadda-yadda-yadda.......
Sadly, there were also some obscene,sick and racist comments regarding the
victim that the site was asked to remove. But overall the comments tend to
express a tremendous anger at a senseless killing... thoughts echoed by the
media, radio callers, etc. The Ohio State Legislature had a minute of silence
to honor Penny Chang.... I hope they now do some serious legislative reform
to make stalking murders captial crimes punishable by death.
It just seems to be
> your standard demented crime. It is a puzzle why this man was out
> and around at all and questions need to be asked about that. It
> doesn't make sense that he wasn't convicted previously. It never
> mentions a restraining order either, apparently none was sought
> but complaints to the police had been made. This was one case
> where "broken windows" police work would have paid off and wouldn't
> have been remotely questionable even without 20/20 hindsight.
>
> H.---
***** Without a doubt, this sad event has shed some light on the dirty issue
of harrassment, stalking, and the need to have laws with some teeth.
Tomoyuki Tanaka
In article <7d01qt$5ct$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <w00...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>>
>> is this killer an Asiaphile in general?
>
>I have to admit that he could be the poster boy for a lot of things bad......
the image of a typical Asiaphile i have is not a dropout type.
rather, it's a wimpy, pasty college graduate who took courses
in East Asian studies, etc. Nicholas Kristof.
but American racists do come in two kinds: KKK types and PC racists.
>> did she go by both Penny and Jenny?
>
>***** No, she did not. I initially mistyped/made mistake in typing the
>headline. I caught and fixed, and I note that moo shoo guy did the same as
>well. My mistake.
ohio.com had both Jenny and Penny.
at first i thought they were two people.
ohio.com also had both 15 y.o. and 16 y.o.
>> >http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
>> >
>> > **** The entire Cleveland, Ohio community has been stunned this
>> > week by the brutal slaying of Jenny Chang, 15, by a stalker who
>> > shot this high school freshman girl as she walked to school,
>> > then stood over her and fired more bullets into her.
>> >
>> > The obsessed stalker, Scott Strothers, 21, had been harrassing
>> > the entire Chang family, originally from Shanghai, China, for
>> > several months--he had previously tried to firebomb the family
>> > garage, smashed windows, poured glue in the gas tank of the
>> > family car, and made numerous harrassing phone calls to the
>> > home. There were also reports he sent Internet messages.
>>
>> > Strothers also developed an obsession with Chang's younger
>> > sister, who, much younger than Strothers, rebuffed his advances.
--
;;; TANAKA Tomoyuki ("Mr. Tanaka" or "Tomoyuki")
;;; http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html
Hugh Bonney
: Hugh Bonney <hbo...@netcom.com> wrote:
: > w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: >
: > : http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
: >
: > On 3/20/99
: > http://www.cleveland.com/news
: > Has a photo of the defendant and a couple of stories listed.
: *** Hugh, did you have any trouble opening these stories? (My computer keeps
: crashing at that site for some reason) These "Cleveland Live" stories are
: essentially the electronic version of stories that appear in the Plain
: Dealer print newspaper. I had to re-key one of the stories, earlier. The
: Cleveland Live Web site is murder to navigate, IMO....
No; I'm using a 16-bit Netscape 4.08 if that makes any difference.
: > http://www.cleveland.com/forums/watercooler.html
: > Has some discussion under the number 1053,
: ***** That is a very poignant tribute to Penny Chang from one of her
: classmates at Shaker High School. There was also another message from a
: fellow student who knew Penny. (They rotate the message board, which is run
: by The Plain Dealer, but it should still be up there...)
: > but terms like hate
: > crime or race don't seem to appear anywhere.
: **** Scroll down a bit. It's there. This is Cleveland, where the population
: is roughly 50/50 black - white... and Asian-American issues are invisible.
: For instance, one poster ("presumably" black) used the killing to question
: whether the media would have made such an issue of the killing is Penny had
: been black and lived in Hough (FYI, Shaker Heights is an upscale
: neighborhood; Hough is the black ghetto) A presumable Asian-American posted
: back questioning why that person was lumping Asians in with whites, noting
: that Asians DO experience their own prejudice, yadda-yadda-yadda.......
Oops; I thought I'd gone off the end into another thread and quit
as I've never used the site. Apologies, I'll go back and wade
through it...
: Sadly, there were also some obscene,sick and racist comments regarding the
Joseph Mak
"funny, no one is mentioning that this was a hate crime. I think the US should
pass a federal hate crime bill - because even if it's the same sentence as murder
or whatever...the additional label of a hate crime i think offers more vindication,
and also says to the larger society that they should take racism seriously here.
everyone thinks racism is so whatever, they're all over it, it's not news, but when
things like this happen, it's obviously that racism has some real and awful
consequences. damn, the police department or whoever should totally get their
asses sued because the harassment was filed before. it's never taken seriously.
and it's not just a hate crime about race...it's about immigrant bashing here, and
of course people's twisted notion of gender...out of all the family members, this
loser kills the daughter who didn't want him."
All I can add is that this situation is really fucked up. From the Chinese spy
bullshit to this... America really needs a lot of work, in terms of Asian American
issues to be dealt with.
peace.
j
Susan Cohen
Richard Lee wrote:
> moo shu guy (asian...@hotmail.com) scribbled:
> : victim's name corrected in title.
> : a totally sick fuck. another example that hating asian males
> : and "loving" asian females is not mutually exclusive.
>
> Interesting.
>
> This whole incident actually kind of reminds me of my own sister and all
> her boyfriends who have hated my guts in the past.
Of course, this is normal (no, not because it's *you* :-> ).
Most guys hate the brothers of the girls they date, because
they know that the brothers not only know what they're
really after, but that the the brothers will try to prevent it -
or at least *avenge* it! :->
Susan
Susan Cohen
w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
>
> **** The entire Cleveland, Ohio community has been stunned this week by the
> brutal slaying of Jenny Chang, 15, by a stalker who shot this high school
> freshman girl as she walked to school, then stood over her and fired more
> bullets into her.
And yet there are people opposed to capital punishment
on any grounds.
I won't even tell you what *I* would do to this guy.
There are youngsters who read these things.
Susan
Susan Cohen
w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> DAD DESCRIBES A TROUBLED SON
>
> "That's brilliant planning, isn't it?" Kenneth Strothers said yesterday. "He
> wore earplugs.It's like him to think of something like that."
Well, this explains a lot.
Susan
Check
w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7d1n7f$ftu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <7cuum3$v3g$1...@brokaw.wa.com>,
> "Check" <ch...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>>
>> moo shu guy wrote in message <7cuouv$4hi$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> >
>> >a totally sick fuck. another example that hating asian males
>> >and "loving" asian females is not mutually exclusive.
>>
>>
>> The same type of murder happened recently here (Seattle) with an
obsessive
>> male (white) murdering the whole friggin family (white as well).
>>
>> Any words of wisdom to characterize that? Or does having an asian there
>> make for an easier intellectual assessment?
>>
>> Perhaps males by their nature are at odds with each other regardless of
>> race, and the rather universal societal ideas granting some sort of
>> assumed male control over women (which asian culture is no stranger to)
>> lays the foundation for attacks like these regardless of race.
>>
>> For the rest to play out you just need fraying fringe material, again
>> regardless of race.
>>
>> Tom Y
>>
>
>when she died. She was a HIGH SCHOOL FRESHMAN. Your comment above regarding
>"assumed male control over women" makes no sense in this context. It's
about
>a grown man stalking a young girl. Little Penny Chang wasn't a woman, yet.
>She was three years away from even going to her senior high school prom,
for
>Pete's sake! (also underscoring the vast sadness of a very young life cut
>short.)
>
Woody- I appreciate you taking these issues on, but my response is
mischaracterized.
What I'm saying is that there is no reason whatsoever at this time to
believe it was a hate crime, in spite of it being characterized that way in
pseudo intellectual and not so intellectual commentary.
At this point in time we have a murder, and it's a very sad story. As so
often happens, a man becomes obsessed with a woman who is almost always
younger, and in numerous tragic circumstances the emotionally disturbed
male enacts his revenge for whatever insult he perceives.
The urge to make it a race crime is another issue in itself. This reflects
a certain racism much more than we've seen to date in this murder, and it
also seems gross and opportunistic to capitalize on a tragic incident like
this.
>Strothers was a pedophile. That is a fact. As for any other labels to
motivate
>his clearly obsessive, hateful behavior toward the Changs, I think it's
wise
>for all of us to hold off until authorities look at the e-mails he sent to
>harrass her, examine his computer's hard drive, question his circles, etc.
>assuming they take these steps.
That's kinda my issue here.
>
. Got
>*probation* for all his crimes that he committed against the
>Changs--naturally... didn't do a day in jail.
>
>
>>>Saunders said if the same set of circumstance had occurred in Los
Angeles, the
>stalker could have been charged with a felony. He also could have received
a
>10-year restraining order and, because it was a case of a 21-year old man
>stalking a 15-year-old girl, he could have been charged as a sex offender."
I'm not really pining for details, but the gist of it seems to be that no
sex of any kind was involved.
>The MAJOR reason why I don't think race should be ruled out: if it was a
>motivation in Strothers' actions, then he committed a federal civil rights
>offense by stalking and killing Miss Chang, same as the guys in Jasper
Texas
>who killed the black man. A lot of Clevelanders and others want this guy to
>get the death penalty for what he did, regardless of motivation. But the
laws
>are stacked against victims, and written in such a way that this IS a
>legitimate issue. If race drove Strothers' obsession, it's a federal
offense.
>Sexual harrassment of Asian-American women and girls is sometime/often
>couched in racist terms (geisha, china doll, and very vulgar racist
demeaning
>terms I need not post here) Let me ask you a point blank question: if
>authorities examine those "distrubing"/hateful e-mails he sent Penny Chang
>that harrassed her so much.... the ones that her best friend, who says
Penny
>told her *everything*, couldn't even learn the content of, and that and
made
>her last few months alive so worrisome.... and authorities find they are
full
>of racist slurs and lurid racist allusions, would you say he commited a
civil
>rights violation and should receive a lethal injection?
I believe if guilty he should be executed for first degree murder of another
human. If those guys in Texas had dragged a fellow white guy to his death,
are you suggesting they be treated more leniently?
>
>My answer to that question. Hell, yes.
>
>Check, this is not the same type of disgusting "Asiaphile" witch hunt that
we
>sadly saw on scaa (you knew what I refer to)--Strothers is a *murderer*, a
>stalker, a pedophile. Given his track record, your concern that he may or
may
>not be also marked as a "racist" doesn't resonate with me whatsoever.
My question to you is 'Why is it so important to characterize this guy as a
racist or this crime as race motivated hate crime with no facts to support
it?' , assuming we are all reading the same information.
>Check, I consider you a person of high integrity, good character, without a
>single scrap of evidence to even come close to for an instant questioning
>anything about you. But I see no need to defend scum like Strother from
>legitimate questions in the course of an investigation of a campaign of
>extended terror ending that lasted for several months and ended in the
>horrible death of a young girl.
If you have to prove him a racist in order to have justice done, then that
is a flaw in the legal system.
Of course, then you just go after the outspoken racists or the ones that are
sloppy in demeanor. The closet racists or the quiet ones would be treated
less harshly. The laws should be applied equally.
I just hope the guy that wants to kill me is a racist, then perhaps he'll
think twice about it. :)
We seem to agree that with or without the race issue, there are no
mitigating circumstances in this case at the present time.
Tom Y
Check
w00...@my-dejanews.com
Strothers was a pedophile. That is a fact. As for any other labels to motivate
his clearly obsessive, hateful behavior toward the Changs, I think it's wise
for all of us to hold off until authorities look at the e-mails he sent to
harrass her, examine his computer's hard drive, question his circles, etc.
assuming they take these steps.
Today's Plain Dealer had another front page story about the case; more
disturbing information. Strothers would sometimes call the Chang's house a
hundred times a day, and hang up if Mr. Chang picked up the phone. But Penny
wanted nothing to do with him. He also began harrassing the entire
family--his hatred expressed by smashing their window with four metal balls
shot from a high-power hunting-style slingshot, trying to torch their garage,
and pouring a glue-like substance into the gas tank of the family car. The
Changs contacted the police and *filed charges*. He confesed last October to
those crimes and also pleaded no contest to telephone harassment. Got
*probation* for all his crimes that he committed against the
Changs--naturally... didn't do a day in jail.
Here's another whole section of today's PD article:
> And Penny was afraid of the Ohio State University drop out, said her best
friend, Robbie Taylor, 13. (w00dyee inserts: the fact that Penny's best
friend that she confided in during this critical time period was *13 years
old* sort of indicates that she was still a child in every sense of the word,
sadly, so unprepared to deal with a predatory monster like this Strothers
closing in on her...)
>Scott and Penny were "never boyfriend and girlfriend," Robbie said. "I've known
her since I was 5. We told each other everything. She was usually a happy,
bubbly person, but whenever she would talk about it, she would get this
serious look on her face. She looked scared when she was talking about
Scott."
>Robbie said Penny told her "This is really freaking me out. He started
e-mailing me and stuff, and I don't like it.
>"Penny said she didn't like the e-mails whatsoever,"Robbie said, adding that
Penny was so disturbed by the messages, she wouldn't even share them with her.
>"He repulsed her," says Monica Taylor, Robbie's mother. "Penny said he was a
creep."
Check and Hugh, the article then noted that Ohio stalking laws required that
Penny inform the autorities that she suffered mental distress due to these
calls, the article noting: "Mental distress is defined in the Ohio Revised
Code as 'any mental illness or condition that involves some temporary
substantial incapacity or mental illness or condition that would normally
require psychiatric treatment." How about that! Penny being "freaked out" or
"repulsed" by his constant assault of distrubing e-mails and calls wouldn't
be enough to charge him with stalking under Ohio law. It was up to *Penny* to
contact the Shaker police and report that she now suffered a *mental illness
requiring psychiatric treatment* before they could charge him with stalking!
Not only is the *definition* of what constitutes "stalking" in need of
revision in Ohio, so is the *punishment*. The Cleveland newspaper also did
some research and found that California laws, for example, are tougher
(allowing a person to potentially be charged with a felony for
stalking--unlike Ohio, where first-time stalking is only a misdemeanor,on par
with a crank call!... a key factor in the death penalty consideration). To
quote directly from the article again:
>Los Angles Deputy District Attorney Rhonda Saunders said police and courts
"need to use these stalking laws as an intervention to *take these guys off
the street*. We need laws that have teeth in them, not misdemeanors that are
a slap on the wrist."
>Saunders said if the same set of circumstance had occurred in Los Angeles, the
stalker could have been charged with a felony. He also could have received a
10-year restraining order and, because it was a case of a 21-year old man
stalking a 15-year-old girl, he could have been charged as a sex offender."
--end of my cites from article--
This is all such a tragedy. Again, I say Ohio laws are a sad mess. I've said
that before. I have said Ohio isn't like CA. If someone can help, please do.
Mr. Chang was interviewed on local Cleveland TV shortly after his daughter's
death crying for justice, wondering where were the "human rights" of victims
and why Strothers was never imprisoned. It touched me. I understood his
words.
Check, bottom line, this is no withc hunt over someo jilted lover or a guy
being rejected by a woman. He was a sick pervert stalking a young (Asian)
girl. The fact that paranthesis are inserted around the race of the *girl* of
his pedophilic obsession is the crux of your issue. Is her race relevant? Is
it irrelevant? How relevant was it to the stalker? Maybe we'll find
out........... maybe not. But hang on....
The MAJOR reason why I don't think race should be ruled out: if it was a
motivation in Strothers' actions, then he committed a federal civil rights
offense by stalking and killing Miss Chang, same as the guys in Jasper Texas
who killed the black man. A lot of Clevelanders and others want this guy to
get the death penalty for what he did, regardless of motivation. But the laws
are stacked against victims, and written in such a way that this IS a
legitimate issue. If race drove Strothers' obsession, it's a federal offense.
Sexual harrassment of Asian-American women and girls is sometime/often
couched in racist terms (geisha, china doll, and very vulgar racist demeaning
terms I need not post here) Let me ask you a point blank question: if
authorities examine those "distrubing"/hateful e-mails he sent Penny Chang
that harrassed her so much.... the ones that her best friend, who says Penny
told her *everything*, couldn't even learn the content of, and that and made
her last few months alive so worrisome.... and authorities find they are full
of racist slurs and lurid racist allusions, would you say he commited a civil
rights violation and should receive a lethal injection?
My answer to that question. Hell, yes.
Check, this is not the same type of disgusting "Asiaphile" witch hunt that we
sadly saw on scaa (you knew what I refer to)--Strothers is a *murderer*, a
stalker, a pedophile. Given his track record, your concern that he may or may
not be also marked as a "racist" doesn't resonate with me whatsoever.
Check, I consider you a person of high integrity, good character, without a
single scrap of evidence to even come close to for an instant questioning
anything about you. But I see no need to defend scum like Strother from
legitimate questions in the course of an investigation of a campaign of
extended terror ending that lasted for several months and ended in the
horrible death of a young girl.
> w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >> > http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
> >
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Timothy J. Lee
It would be more accurate to refer to the suspect as "the suspect"
or "the alleged killer", since he has not been convicted of the
crime. Media, lawyers, judges, and police in the United States
are generally careful about such references.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee timlee@
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. netcom.com
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
da...@my-dejanews.com
<tim...@netcom.com.DELETE-THIS.BIT> sayed:
>tan...@catbert.ucdavis.edu (Tomoyuki Tanaka) writes:
>|
>| is this killer an Asiaphile in general?
>|
>| is this killer white?
>
>It would be more accurate to refer to the suspect as "the suspect"
>or "the alleged killer", since he has not been convicted of the
>crime. Media, lawyers, judges, and police in the United States
>are generally careful about such references.
What, and bring your journalistic standards down to those of Amnesty
International?
Da Ye
Timothy J. Lee
|In article <hbonneyF...@netcom.com>,
| Hugh Bonney <hbo...@netcom.com> wrote:
|> your standard demented crime. It is a puzzle why this man was out
|> and around at all and questions need to be asked about that. It
|> doesn't make sense that he wasn't convicted previously. It never
|> mentions a restraining order either, apparently none was sought
|> but complaints to the police had been made. This was one case
|> where "broken windows" police work would have paid off and wouldn't
|> have been remotely questionable even without 20/20 hindsight.
|
|of harrassment, stalking, and the need to have laws with some teeth.
Based on the description of the events leading up to the killing,
it doesn't look like any new laws are necessary. If the description
of the previous stuff that the suspect is alleged to have done
(attempted arson (which could well be viewed as attempted murder if the
target building was occupied at the time), vandalism, phone threats,
etc.) is accurate, then it really is strange that the suspect wasn't
at least already in jail or on bail awaiting trial for that type of
stuff.
It's just like the whole "carjacking" thing a few years ago. It got
hyped in the media, and legislatures rushed out new laws against it
to gain election points. But the act was already illegal ("carjacking"
is a form of robbery if you think about it), so perhaps it is not
coincidence that, at least in some states, the "carjacking" laws
closely resemble the robbery laws.
w00...@my-dejanews.com
see-signature-for-email-address---junk-not-welcome wrote:
> tan...@catbert.ucdavis.edu (Tomoyuki Tanaka) writes:
> |
> | is this killer an Asiaphile in general?
> |
> | is this killer white?
>
> It would be more accurate to refer to the suspect as "the suspect"
> or "the alleged killer", since he has not been convicted of the
> crime. Media, lawyers, judges, and police in the United States
> are generally careful about such references.
>
******* Normally, I would agree with your concern. In this case, no one is
even raising the question of whether he committed the murder (the question is
WHY he did it, exactly). The murder took place in a crowd of people,
literally right in front of a police station and a mass transit site.
Strothers was positively id'd by a literal throng of people--students,
commuters. Police rushed to the scene--sitting in his office, the chief of
police heard the burst of gunfire-- and the police arrested Strothers *on the
spot* as he was attempting to calmly walk away after standing over Penny
Chang firing more bullets to ensure she died. Additionally, Strothers had
already been found guilty of destroying Chang family property and pleaded no
contest in October to telephone harrassment of Penny Chang, 15, the high
school freshman girl he was obsessing over and who had rejected his advances.
Even Strothers' parents acknowledge that he committed the murder. He'd told
his dad that he planned to kill the entire Chang family. But, yes, you are
correct. Scott Strothers is technically the "suspected killer" at this point.
But not even the LAPD on its worse day could mess up this open and shut case
where there is literally a smoking gun in hand, multiple positve ids, an
on-site arrest, a history of harrassment, and a stated intent to kill the
individual.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Timothy J. Lee timlee@
> Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. netcom.com
> No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
w00...@my-dejanews.com
> |In article <hbonneyF...@netcom.com>,
> | Hugh Bonney <hbo...@netcom.com> wrote:
> |> It just seems to be
> |> your standard demented crime. It is a puzzle why this man was out
> |> and around at all and questions need to be asked about that. It
> |> doesn't make sense that he wasn't convicted previously. It never
> |> mentions a restraining order either, apparently none was sought
> |> but complaints to the police had been made. This was one case
> |> where "broken windows" police work would have paid off and wouldn't
> |> have been remotely questionable even without 20/20 hindsight.
> |
> |***** Without a doubt, this sad event has shed some light on the dirty issue
> |of harrassment, stalking, and the need to have laws with some teeth.
>
> Based on the description of the events leading up to the killing,
> it doesn't look like any new laws are necessary. If the description
> of the previous stuff that the suspect is alleged to have done
> (attempted arson (which could well be viewed as attempted murder if the
> target building was occupied at the time), vandalism, phone threats,
> etc.) is accurate, then it really is strange that the suspect wasn't
> at least already in jail or on bail awaiting trial for that type of
> stuff.
>
***** Tim, he was found guilty of three incididents of vandalizing the
Changs' house (smashing window) car (glue in the gas tank) and garage
(attempted arson) as well as plead no contest to telephone harrassment last
October. He received PROBATION.... never served a day in prison. (That's one
reason why Penny's dad was so angry after his daughter was killed--you should
have seen him talking about "human rights" for victims in local TV
interviews...)Please read that same post--it also explained how Ohio stalking
laws need to be strengthened. Had these crimes occured in CA, the sad outcome
might have been far different.
> It's just like the whole "carjacking" thing a few years ago. It got
> hyped in the media, and legislatures rushed out new laws against it
> to gain election points. But the act was already illegal ("carjacking"
> is a form of robbery if you think about it), so perhaps it is not
> coincidence that, at least in some states, the "carjacking" laws
> closely resemble the robbery laws.
>
****** Whatever. I wasn't talking about carjacking laws in another state. I
was talking about weak stalking laws in Ohio that fail to protect victims.
> --
Don Kirkman
<hbonneyF...@netcom.com>:
>w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>: Hugh Bonney <hbo...@netcom.com> wrote:
>: > w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>: > : http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
>: >
>: > On 3/20/99
>: > http://www.cleveland.com/news
>: > Has a photo of the defendant and a couple of stories listed.
>: *** Hugh, did you have any trouble opening these stories? (My computer keeps
>: crashing at that site for some reason) These "Cleveland Live" stories are
>: essentially the electronic version of stories that appear in the Plain
>: Dealer print newspaper. I had to re-key one of the stories, earlier. The
>: Cleveland Live Web site is murder to navigate, IMO....
> No; I'm using a 16-bit Netscape 4.08 if that makes any difference.
[...]
And they both came up quickly for me, Woody, on Sunday morning. My
browser is Opera 3.51 under Win98.
--
Don
Richard Lee
:
:
: w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
:
: > DAD DESCRIBES A TROUBLED SON
: >
: > "That's brilliant planning, isn't it?" Kenneth Strothers said yesterday. "He
: > wore earplugs.It's like him to think of something like that."
: Well, this explains a lot.
:
: Susan
:
Richard Lee
: Richard Lee wrote:
: > This whole incident actually kind of reminds me of my own sister and all
: > her boyfriends who have hated my guts in the past.
: Of course, this is normal (no, not because it's *you* :-> ).
: Most guys hate the brothers of the girls they date, because
: they know that the brothers not only know what they're
: really after, but that the the brothers will try to prevent it -
: or at least *avenge* it! :->
Actually, I think they all hated me because I thought they were dorks
(literally, dorks) and used to make fun of them to their faces. Probably
not a good tactic if you wanna remain on good terms.
Richard Lee
w00...@my-dejanews.com
The site where Penny Chang was gunned down is full of flowers, stuffed
animals, messages etc. that friends and even strangers have brought. The
whole town is touched. There have been major memorial services for two or
three days! Here is the story "Penny, we love you!" that was on the front
page of the Sunday Plain Dealer. It also relates more about Penny and this
case:
http://www.cleveland.com/news/pdnews/metro/c21penn.ssf
Better to leave this story on this note; I've said my piece about the need to
change laws to get sick, cowardly stalkers like Scott Strothers off the street
for good.
Timothy J. Lee
Sounds like, stalking law or no stalking law, Ohio is pretty lenient
on crime in general (or has a messed up policy of deciding which
convicted criminals limited prison space is used for). What did Ohio
law specify as punishment for arson? Did the telephone harassment
include threats of violence, and, if so, what did Ohio law specify as
punishment for that?
Timothy J. Lee
|In article <timleeF8...@netcom.com>,
| see-signature-for-email-address---junk-not-welcome wrote:
|> |
|> | is this killer an Asiaphile in general?
|> |
|> | is this killer white?
|>
|> It would be more accurate to refer to the suspect as "the suspect"
|> or "the alleged killer", since he has not been convicted of the
|> crime. Media, lawyers, judges, and police in the United States
|> are generally careful about such references.
|
|even raising the question of whether he committed the murder (the question is
|WHY he did it, exactly). The murder took place in a crowd of people,
|literally right in front of a police station and a mass transit site.
|Strothers was positively id'd by a literal throng of people--students,
|commuters.
|But not even the LAPD on its worse day could mess up this open and shut case
|where there is literally a smoking gun in hand, multiple positve ids, an
|on-site arrest, a history of harrassment, and a stated intent to kill the
|individual.
In Los Angeles, there were two high profile cases where assailants were
identified on videotape beating up someone else with weapons. In both
cases, the prosecution failed to gain convictions on the major charges.
Granted, in both cases, there was significant political support for the
defendants, resulting in their receipt of extensive legal aid (didn't
both defenses use the same high priced jury consultant?). But, while
the prosecution's case is very strong, it isn't over until the verdict
is read by the jury.
w00...@my-dejanews.com
**** New story below: 1,000 attend another Cleveland memorial for
Chinese-American girl slain by stalker; memorial fund set up....
Strothers knew the Changs because he went to high school and later college
(Ohio State University) with Penny's older brother. The two reportedly had a
"falling out" in college, paper reports he was jealous of Chang's academic
success, and after Strothers dropped out of college he began aggressively
pursuing Sean Chang's very young sister back home that he'd developed a real
thing over. Penny had reported all of the telephone harrassment last fall
(October) Strothers pleaded no contest to telephone harrassment and he had
received probation (not a day in jail) for that and for damaging Chang family
property (smashing a window, damaging car, trying to burn garage). There was
a lull in activity over the holidays; Penny thought it was all over. But
"Sun" newspaper has reported that Strothers began e-mailing Penny about two
weeks before her death (she didn't report these *e-mails* to police or
family; she only told a few close friends about the e-mails... I wonder if
because he threatened her/her family if she did so... and/or because she saw
that reporting him the first time didn't put him out of circulation and had
angered him--common for stalking/abuse victims) Earlier PD article noted that
Penny was a happy child, born in Pittsburgh to immigrant parents she learned
to speak English in Clevelaand area kindergarten and was fluent in French as
well. Member of chess team and a computer wiz, she liked to surf the Net and,
like lots of kids, she and her friends frequented chat rooms often, including
the evening before she was stalked and murdered on way to school. In an
editorial in today's paper, the superintendant of schools Freeman notes that
Ohio legislature WAS considering a law even as Penny was gunned
down--unfortunately,it's one that would make carrying a concealed weapon
*legal*...hey, thanks Chuck Heston and NRA for those lobbying efforts!....
just what we don't need in a town where my wife is already afraid to go to
the nearest mall where she was stalked herself and where there has been
gunplay. Sad, eh?
Penny's memorial attended by 1,000
Monday, March 22, 1999
By ALAN ACHKAR
PLAIN DEALER REPORTER
SHAKER HEIGHTS - They came to share memories of Penny
Chang, to reminisce about the small things they would always
cherish - her smile, or the friendly "hello" in her greetings.
But for the 1,000 people who attended yesterday's memorial service
in honor of the Shaker Heights teenager, there were also warnings
and lessons, especially for her peers.
Warnings about violence, about gun control and about
communicating with family members.
"Children, please, talk to your parents, or at least your brother or
sister," JoAnn Chang, Penny's sister, implored the audience. "You
need to trust them. They love you. They love you, OK? Just
communication, OK?"
Penny Chang, 15, was fatally shot last Monday as she walked to
school. Scott Strothers, 21, a former family friend who has been
described as obsessed with her, was charged with aggravated
murder. Before the killing, Penny had confided to some friends that
she disliked Strothers and was afraid of him.
Yesterday, her family, friends and classmates filled the auditorium at
Shaker Heights Middle School for the hour-long memorial service.
Her teachers spoke about her thirst for learning, her enthusiasm, her
leadership in class discussions, her strong interest in computers
and the smile she always flashed.
"Life seemed good for Penny," recalled Bel Martin, Penny's teacher
in second and fourth grade. "I was happy for her."
If there is a message to be gained from her death, Martin said, it is
that, "We must come to understand that all life, every life, is
precious." Tandra Faison, 15, a close friend of Penny's, fought back
tears as she read a poem, titled "There is No Death," written in
honor of the slain teenager. The poem read in part:
"Just at the moment when someone at my side says, "There! She's
gone!'
There are other eyes watching her coming and other voices ready
to take up the glad shout, "There she comes!'"
Some speakers said there were lessons to learn from Penny's death.
Shaker Heights schools Superintendent Mark Freeman told Penny's
classmates to understand "there are people out there, even in this
peaceful community of ours, who would do harm" and that the
"availability of deadly weapons in our society makes it easier than
ever."
Another stern warning about guns and violence came from the Rev.
Marvin McMickle, president of the Shaker Heights Board of
Education. He railed against a society with lax gun-control laws,
video games that revolve around death and destruction and
television shows that glorify violence.
"When do we stop killing our children? When do we stop tolerating
a culture of guns and violence?" he asked the audience. "There will
be other people killed in the streets unless and until you and I, who
know there is a better way, stand up and say, "No.'"
At the end of the service, baskets filled with candy were offered to
those in attendance. In Chinese tradition, candy is provided to
mourners at the end of a funeral so it can bring "sweetness in our
time of sorrow."
Contributions in honor of Penny Chang can be sent to: The Penny
Chang Memorial Fund, Shaker Schools Foundation, 15600 Parkland
Dr., Shaker Heights, Ohio 44120.
©1999 THE PLAIN DEALER. Used with permission.
Timothy J. Lee
|In article <36f63c73...@news.newsguy.com>,
| new...@abac.com wrote:
|> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Hugh Bonney wrote in article
|> <hbonneyF...@netcom.com>:
|>
|> >w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
|> >: Hugh Bonney <hbo...@netcom.com> wrote:
|> >: > w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
|>
|> >: > : http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
|> >: >
|> >: > On 3/20/99
|> >: > http://www.cleveland.com/news
|> >: > Has a photo of the defendant and a couple of stories listed.
|>
|> >: *** Hugh, did you have any trouble opening these stories? (My computer
|keeps
|> >: crashing at that site for some reason)
|>
|>
|> browser is Opera 3.51 under Win98.
|
What browser, OS, and hardware do your computer have? One or more
of them is likely to be defective. Such defects are very common.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> "falling out" in college, paper reports he was jealous of Chang's academic
> success,
My final English class in university was English
409, Business Writing. In my foursome checking
each other's resumes were two Chinese women
from Hong Kong. They had majored in Business, as
I had, and would be my competition on a job hunt.
One had a GPA of 3.98. The other had a GPA of
3.99. The one with the 3.99 GPA spoke four
languages; Cantonese, Mandarin, English and
Japanese. She also had five years experience
working in a Hong Kong television company or as
an executive assistant. I don't even remember who
else was there, because we were ordinary. Guess
who got the jobs?
In my engineering and business classes at the
University of Hawaii, there were many such
students, as about 25% of the engineering and
business colleges was foreign. I sure felt humbled.
But I don't know anyone who dropped out because
of such frustration, or attacked successful
students. This criminal is just a sick bastard who
should die.
> Ohio legislature WAS considering a law even as Penny was gunned
> down--unfortunately,it's one that would make carrying a concealed weapon
> *legal*...hey, thanks Chuck Heston and NRA for those lobbying efforts!....
If you or any gun control advocates haven't
noticed, criminals don't seem to give a damn about
waiting periods, minimum ages for ownership,
felons not being able to own firearms, the
minimum16 inch barrel law on shotguns and
rifles, the assault weapon or automatic fire ban,
the ban on magazines which hold over ten rounds,
laws against concealed carry, or ANY other laws
(they're criminals, duh), but gun control WOULD
prevent ME from protecting myself against
criminal scum in the US. As a matter of fact, all I
have here in Japan is a sledgehammer handle
behind the door, and I'm not sure even that is
legal, as it is intended as a weopon. I live down the
block from police headquarters, but they do not
prevent the string of crimes in the neighborhood,
and they would not be able to save me from
tragedy in my own home. If some scum appear at
my home, the first thing I would want is a gun. If
scum approach me on the street, the first thing I
would want is a gun. The nastiest things I see in
the local security store are pepper spray, stun
guns or police batons. Oooo.
> Another stern warning about guns and violence came from the Rev.
> Marvin McMickle, president of the Shaker Heights Board of
> Education. He railed against a society with lax gun-control laws,
> video games that revolve around death and destruction and
> television shows that glorify violence.
I've never assaulted or killed anyone, and never
committed a violent crime, despite enjoying more
than my share of media and games which glorify
violence and destruction, growing up in a hunting,
working class community, as well as having guns
in the house. The only reason I would use a gun is
in defense. Criminals who turn weapons on others
are weak or weak minded. Gun control would do
nothing but keep me from protecting myself and
my home. You want a safe society? Apprehend and
eliminate all criminal scum so they no longer
threaten law abiding citizens. Send the military
through neighborhoods on sweeps for illegal
weapons, as I've seen proposed.
> "When do we stop killing our children?
I'd only kill if they threatened me or my family
first, preferably with weapons.
> When do we stop tolerating a culture of guns and violence?" he asked the audience.
I don't tolerate a culture of guns and violence. But
politicians and the general public are too weak
willed to carry out my proposals for a safe
society, getting rid of all scum. In an earlier post,
I described how to be free of scum at minimal
cost.
> "There will
> be other people killed in the streets unless and until you and I, who
> know there is a better way, stand up and say, "No.'"
Get rid of all criminal scum as I propose, and the
crime rate will drop further than than if ALL
guns were eliminated from the earth. There were
2.4 million crimes reported in Japan in 1997,
most of them larceny, despite there being no legal
ownership of pistols or assault weapons, and
strictly regulated hunting guns, it seems, used
only on errant bears.
Eric Takabayashi
Fukuyama, Japan
w00...@my-dejanews.com
land of the rising sun....>
You might want to check out a local discussion board, re. victim's rights,
this case, other local cases, etc. It also has some nice testimonials from
Penny Chang's classmates (if they haven't already rotated off the board by
the time you read this.....) Local kids took the murder hard.
http://forums.cleveland.com/forums/get/watercooler.html
A lot of venting. A few really asinine, insensitive comments. But my favorite
is what "Judge Roy Bean" posted (paper indicates killer may claim insanity
defense.... of course. He copped a plea and got PROBATION in October for the
telephone harrassment/destruction of Changs' property charges (window, car,
garage)..... now probably claims INSANITY after putting in his shooting
earplugs and murdering the girl in cold blood. What's next? If Johnny Cochran
shows up making cutesy rhymes, I'm gonna puke. Actually, his parents have
hired a big-shot local lawyer to defend him...)
By Judge Roy Bean:
I have a simple test to determine whether or not Scott Strothers was too
insane to know what he was doing when he stalked and gunned down his vicitm
I will offer to take Scott out to the exact same site and tell him to turn
around.
"Now Scott," I'll explain to him, putting ear plugs into my ears and taking
out a 9 mm handgun. "We are about to re-enact your crime. I'm going to shoot
you twice in the head and in the back. Is that okay with you?
"WHAT? DO YOU THINK I'M CRAZY, MAN?" he'll stammer in fear.
BLAM!!! **** BLAM!!! ***** BLAM!!! **** BLAM!!!
"Sorry. Now, what was that Scott?" I'll ask, removing the ear plugs.
Don Kirkman
in article <7d8cqv$tb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>:
Picking one specific item out of Eric's post:
>w00dyee wrote:
[...]
>> Ohio legislature WAS considering a law even as Penny was gunned
>> down--unfortunately,it's one that would make carrying a concealed weapon
>> *legal*...hey, thanks Chuck Heston and NRA for those lobbying efforts!....
>If you or any gun control advocates haven't
>noticed, criminals don't seem to give a damn about
>waiting periods, minimum ages for ownership,
>felons not being able to own firearms, the
>minimum16 inch barrel law on shotguns and
>rifles, the assault weapon or automatic fire ban,
>the ban on magazines which hold over ten rounds,
>laws against concealed carry, or ANY other laws
>(they're criminals, duh),
This has bothered me for a long time (I spent 20-some years in and
around the justice system); laws usually seem to be written with the
assumption that everybody is rational, motivated by common cultural
standards, and driven by conscience. It's as though politicians and
legislators have never heard the term 'scofflaw.' For criminal laws to
work properly, they have to be embody concepts and actions that motivate
criminals, not academics or politicians. As seems to be pretty clear
from current reports on three strike laws, even the threat of harsh(er)
penalties is largely irrelevant to real criminals who much of the time
commit their crimes for the thrill or for quick access to something they
want but otherwise couldn't have.
> but gun control WOULD
>prevent ME from protecting myself against
>criminal scum in the US. As a matter of fact, all I
>have here in Japan is a sledgehammer handle
>behind the door, and I'm not sure even that is
>legal, as it is intended as a weopon. I live down the
>block from police headquarters, but they do not
>prevent the string of crimes in the neighborhood,
>and they would not be able to save me from
>tragedy in my own home. If some scum appear at
>my home, the first thing I would want is a gun. If
>scum approach me on the street, the first thing I
>would want is a gun. The nastiest things I see in
>the local security store are pepper spray, stun
>guns or police batons. Oooo.
[...]
--
Don
Don Kirkman
<timleeF9...@netcom.com>:
>w00...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>|In article <36f63c73...@news.newsguy.com>,
>| new...@abac.com wrote:
>|> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Hugh Bonney wrote in article
>|> <hbonneyF...@netcom.com>:
>|> >w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>|> >: Hugh Bonney <hbo...@netcom.com> wrote:
>|> >: > w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>|> >: > : http://www.ohio.com:80/bj/news/ohio/docs/017329.htm
>|> >: > On 3/20/99
>|> >: > http://www.cleveland.com/news
>|> >: > Has a photo of the defendant and a couple of stories listed.
>|> >: *** Hugh, did you have any trouble opening these stories? (My computer
>|keeps
>|> >: crashing at that site for some reason)
>|> > No; I'm using a 16-bit Netscape 4.08 if that makes any difference.
>|> And they both came up quickly for me, Woody, on Sunday morning. My
>|> browser is Opera 3.51 under Win98.
>|***** It STILL keeps crashing my computer!
>What browser, OS, and hardware do your computer have? One or more
>of them is likely to be defective. Such defects are very common.
A trick that sometimes helps is to 'back down' toward the home page;
once in a while I find a page that won't load, and by dropping the final
'/xxxxx' and retrying, repeating the process if necessary, I can often
open the page at a higher level and then follow the links back to the
section I want; I'd like to think this a slightly faulty HTML on the
page, since my browser usually opens even long complex URLs for me. The
www.cleveland.com URL is so short, though, that this technique probably
wouldn't make any difference there.
--
Don
Timothy J. Lee
| For criminal laws to
|work properly, they have to be embody concepts and actions that motivate
|criminals, not academics or politicians. As seems to be pretty clear
|from current reports on three strike laws, even the threat of harsh(er)
|penalties is largely irrelevant to real criminals who much of the time
|commit their crimes for the thrill or for quick access to something they
|want but otherwise couldn't have.
Other problems with the "three strike" laws:
a. No effect on juvenile (under 18) criminals. Age 16 is the age
with the highest rate of arrests.
b. Fills up the prison system with aging criminals whose criminal
behavior is on decline (in California, the third strike need not
be as serious or violent as the first two, in order to get a life
sentence), while younger criminals who are more dangerous still
get the "revolving door".
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> This has bothered me for a long time (I spent 20-some years in and
> around the justice system); laws usually seem to be written with the
> assumption that everybody is rational, motivated by common cultural
> standards, and driven by conscience.
It seems especially true in "safe," "honest" Japan,
for example giving juveniles (under 20 in Japan)
a slap on the wrist, if prosecuted at all, even for
serious crimes such as oh, knifing your own
teacher in the hallway at school with an illegal,
concealed butterfly knife in front of everyone for
being scolded for being late from the bathroom,
despite the fact that, as reported by a police
telementary last night, 48% of criminals in
Japan are juveniles. As reported in the Japan
Times, juveniles aged 14-19 are apprehended in
about half of violent crimes, including murder.
Not even "children" should get away with killing.
Criminals under 16 cannot face jail time in
Japan. Criminals under 14 cannot be prosecuted
AT ALL, NO MATTER WHAT. Kill animals for fun,
in practice for killing humans. Worship the devil.
Attack a classmate at school in front of teachers
with a metal pipe, taking out his teeth, because he
teased you. Attack nine year old girls at random on
the street with a hammer. Strangle your 11 year
old friend, cut off his head with a hacksaw, and
put up the head at the school gate. Taunt the police
and media for two months. The 14 year old Kobe
scum who did all these things was quickly put into
a psychiatric facility, from which he MUST by
law be freed in time, NO MATTER WHAT, to save
the embarassment and trouble of debating the
juvenile legal system. His human rights, identity,
privacy, future, etc., MUST be protected, BY
LAW, NO MATTER WHAT. Since I am not, by
Japanese law, allowed to acquire or carry
weapons to reasonably defend myself against
scum, I should hire some junior high kids to
serve as my bodyguards or personal hit squad. I'd
be free to order them to do anything.
The 1997 White Paper on Crime by the Japanese
Ministry of Justice, available in English at
http://www.moj.go.jp/ENGLISH/RATI/rati-
61.htm
shows only about 22,000 people were admitted
into prison for those 2.4 MILLION yearly
Japanese crimes, mostly larceny. A closer read
will reveal two things: Firstly, the Japanese legal
system is not as effective at preventing or
prosecuting crime as they lead the world to
believe (Over 99% conviction rate? Now note
that only 4.7% of crimes where people are
apprehended ever get to trial! Note that Japanese
apprehend people in only about half of crimes, and
about 30% are released for lack of evidence! You
are in actuality, talking about convicting
criminals in fewer than 3% of crimes!).
Secondly, Japanese are just plain lenient with
criminals, even when faced with career
criminals, a good proportion having been sent to
prison even over five times. Lenient even
compared to bad American cases when even killers
get off. Your best bet to get away with murder in
Japan is run someone over with your car,
accident or no accident. You'll be prosecuted less
than 20% of the time. Maybe you'll get a fine of
about a thousand dollars. If you are unlucky,
maybe you will be sent to traffic prison for about
one year, where you will be sent to classes and
"rehabilitated." The poor darlings.
> It's as though politicians and
> legislators have never heard the term 'scofflaw.' For criminal laws to
> work properly, they have to be embody concepts and actions that motivate
> criminals, not academics or politicians.
The existence of these scofflaw scum are precisely
the reason they must be removed from society.
Permanently. Kill them to save the expense of
feeding, clothing, or educating them. Spend those
billions of dollars of tax money on reforming
Social Security, eliminating the national debt,
improving infrastructure, stimulating the
economy, etc. Save the millions of starving in
Africa or North Korea. I'd rather have the
government BURN that money than spend it on
providing for scum.
Eric Takabayashi
Fukuyama, Japan
w00...@my-dejanews.com
> This has bothered me for a long time (I spent 20-some years in and
> around the justice system); laws usually seem to be written with the
> assumption that everybody is rational, motivated by common cultural
> standards, and driven by conscience. It's as though politicians and
> legislators have never heard the term 'scofflaw.' For criminal laws to
> work properly, they have to be embody concepts and actions that motivate
> criminals, not academics or politicians. As seems to be pretty clear
> from current reports on three strike laws, even the threat of harsh(er)
> penalties is largely irrelevant to real criminals who much of the time
> commit their crimes for the thrill or for quick access to something they
> want but otherwise couldn't have.
>
>
**** I agree that merely having laws on the books doesn't mean much--for two
reasons. First, sometimes a state's laws lack any teeth. For instance, as
pointed out by the Penny Chang case, Ohio's stalking/harrassment laws are
downright wimpy (the judge told paper hands were tied--Ohio HAS stalking
laws, but they required that Penny Chang essentially suffer a nervous
breakdown before 'stalking' could have been said to apply...so if the victim
is strong, they suffer). Politicians write these laws. Duh. Go figure. I
think "three strikes" laws are wimpy, too. Three major crimes required before
taking a felon off the streets? I think that's turning the proverbial cheek a
bit much! Second reason why merely having laws doesn't provide security: the
laws are often improperly applied by judges. Sometimes one judge here
provides probation to a grown man who is hounding an entire family over a
period of several months, terrorizing a little girl over the phone, and
damaging that family's car/house/garage (bastard should have been sent to
state pen for a good six months at that point!).... so HE doesn't do a day in
jail.... yet another judge will allow her anti-abortion beliefs to go outside
of sentencing guidelines to give another criminal hard time merely to ensure
she has a baby. Weird. And where's the "justice" in some of this? More whim
than wisdom in some local judge's rulings. Bottom line--it's an imperfect
system of justice, and probably will always be. Bad laws, and bad judges do
exist. But we need to keep whacking on the system to try to at least make it
better/more effective at actually *stopping crime* ...
w00...@my-dejanews.com
see-signature-for-email-address---junk-not-welcome wrote:
> new...@abac.com writes:
> | For criminal laws to
> |work properly, they have to be embody concepts and actions that motivate
> |criminals, not academics or politicians. As seems to be pretty clear
> |from current reports on three strike laws, even the threat of harsh(er)
> |penalties is largely irrelevant to real criminals who much of the time
> |commit their crimes for the thrill or for quick access to something they
> |want but otherwise couldn't have.
>
>
> a. No effect on juvenile (under 18) criminals. Age 16 is the age
> with the highest rate of arrests.
>
> b. Fills up the prison system with aging criminals whose criminal
> behavior is on decline (in California, the third strike need not
> be as serious or violent as the first two, in order to get a life
> sentence), while younger criminals who are more dangerous still
> get the "revolving door".
>
****** Good points. The fact that politicians write these laws probably has
something to do with their basic lack of effectiveness.
While I favor a toughening of our justice system in general, I realize that
there are some real underlying problems (drugs, people's attitudes, etc.)
I heard something sad on the network TV news the other day. Currently, one
out of every 150 Americans is incarcerated at any given moment. Incredible.
It's true. The report said the only nation with a higher percentage of its
citizens behind bars is Russia. But the difference between us and number two
(Russia) is slim.
We're continuing to build more and more prisons. And I think we should.
But here's a real sad reality. *It's not really stopping criminals.* In some
segments of society, having a criminal record isn't exactly a social stigma.
so the revolving doors spin. Hey, if I knew of a complete solution I'd post
it. I haven't heard anyone give one yet.... certainly not the politicians.
Russia is trying to crack down on its own rampant lawlessness, without really
stopping it. One outcome: there's a move afoot to re-empower the KGB to fight
organized crime over there.
Crime, I think, can become a societal sickness, a general lawlessness that too
many people buy into.
Timothy J. Lee
|Don Kirkman wrote:
|
|> This has bothered me for a long time (I spent 20-some years in and
|> around the justice system); laws usually seem to be written with the
|> assumption that everybody is rational, motivated by common cultural
|> standards, and driven by conscience.
|
|Times, juveniles aged 14-19 are apprehended in
|about half of violent crimes, including murder.
|Not even "children" should get away with killing.
|Criminals under 16 cannot face jail time in
|Japan. Criminals under 14 cannot be prosecuted
|AT ALL, NO MATTER WHAT.
Lenient treatment of juvenile criminals is similar in the United
States. Juveniles make up a disproportionate number of arrests
(age 16 being the peak in the United States). A murder conviction
as an adult in California gets 15 years to life or more (including
the possibility of life without parole or death, if there are special
circumstances). As a juvenile, a murder conviction gets a term
in the California Youth Authority until one is 25.
To some extent, there seems to be the assumption that juvenile
criminals will be dealt with by their parents. That is probably
a correct assumption in cases where a strong family can straighten
out the errant juvenile before he becomes a hardened criminal (e.g.
a kid caught doing graffiti and other vandalism was released to his
parents; he was forced to clean it up (among other punishment) by
his father). But it most likely fails those from broken, neglectful,
or abusive families, or those whose "family" is a criminal gang,
allowing the progression to hardened criminals.
|shows only about 22,000 people were admitted
|into prison for those 2.4 MILLION yearly
|Japanese crimes, mostly larceny. A closer read
|will reveal two things: Firstly, the Japanese legal
|system is not as effective at preventing or
|prosecuting crime as they lead the world to
|believe (Over 99% conviction rate? Now note
|that only 4.7% of crimes where people are
|apprehended ever get to trial! Note that Japanese
|apprehend people in only about half of crimes, and
Take a look at the FBI crime reports in the library the next time
you are in the United States. For the serious crimes that people
tend to be most concerned about and are used in the FBI's crime
index (homicide, rape, robbery, assault, burglary, theft), the crime
is solved less than half of the time in all of these cases except
homicide (about two thirds).
A lot of arrests never got to trial here, due to plea-bargaining.
|The existence of these scofflaw scum are precisely
|the reason they must be removed from society.
|Permanently. Kill them to save the expense of
|feeding, clothing, or educating them. Spend those
|billions of dollars of tax money on reforming
|Social Security, eliminating the national debt,
|improving infrastructure, stimulating the
|economy, etc. Save the millions of starving in
|Africa or North Korea. I'd rather have the
|government BURN that money than spend it on
|providing for scum.
Innocent people have been executed before, despite the extensive
(and expensive) legal appeals allowed the condemned prisoner.
In many states, a death sentence is essentially equivalent to
life no parole, since death row prisoners tend to die of natural
causes before reaching the executioner. Speeding up the appeals
process would reduce the monetary cost, but at a higher risk of
executing wrongly convicted persons.
Timothy J. Lee
| Sometimes one judge here
|provides probation to a grown man who is hounding an entire family over a
|period of several months, terrorizing a little girl over the phone, and
|damaging that family's car/house/garage (bastard should have been sent to
|state pen for a good six months at that point!)....
Only 6 months for arson? That's pretty lenient. If the phone
harassment included threats of violent felonies, then one would
have to wonder about either the laws or the judge in that case
as well.
Timothy J. Lee
|In article <timleeF9...@netcom.com>,
| see-signature-for-email-address---junk-not-welcome wrote:
|> new...@abac.com writes:
|> | For criminal laws to
|> |work properly, they have to be embody concepts and actions that motivate
|> |criminals, not academics or politicians. As seems to be pretty clear
|> |from current reports on three strike laws, even the threat of harsh(er)
|> |penalties is largely irrelevant to real criminals who much of the time
|> |commit their crimes for the thrill or for quick access to something they
|> |want but otherwise couldn't have.
|>
|> Other problems with the "three strike" laws:
|>
|> a. No effect on juvenile (under 18) criminals. Age 16 is the age
|> with the highest rate of arrests.
|>
|> b. Fills up the prison system with aging criminals whose criminal
|> behavior is on decline (in California, the third strike need not
|> be as serious or violent as the first two, in order to get a life
|> sentence), while younger criminals who are more dangerous still
|> get the "revolving door".
|
|****** Good points. The fact that politicians write these laws probably has
|something to do with their basic lack of effectiveness.
|
|While I favor a toughening of our justice system in general, I realize that
|there are some real underlying problems (drugs, people's attitudes, etc.)
Regarding drugs, drug treatment has been found to be 7 times more
cost effective at preventing future drug abuse than imprisonment
is. Not to mention the fact that imprisonment takes up jail and
prison space that could be used for really dangerous criminals
(murderers, rapists, robbers, burglars, thieves), and that imprisoning
someone whose only crime was drugs may result in the prisoner being
socialized with more dangerous criminals, thus becoming a more dangerous
criminal when released.
|We're continuing to build more and more prisons. And I think we should.
Prison building is often a reactive measure forced upon society due to
failures of years ago (poor education, failure to steer juveniles away
from crime before they became hardened criminals). What people often
fail to grasp is that it isn't just "spend money on prisons vs.
schools/etc.", but that there is a time aspect involved. Failure in
the schools/etc. now is likely to create more demand for prison space
later.
Efficient use of prison space is another thing to consider. Some of
the policies that we have now don't seem to make a lot of sense.
For example, compare the penalties listed in the United States Code for
manslaughter (18 USC 1112 says up to 10 years) versus simple possession
of 6 grams of crack cocaine (21 USC 844 says 5 to 20 years). For those
whose only crimes are the listed ones, which one is likely to be a
greater danger to society? Does that match the amount of prison time
allocated to each one?
"Three strike" laws also need to be considered in this context.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Lenient treatment of juvenile criminals is similar in the United
> States.
Really. Even serial killers like the
internationally infamous Kobe killer CANNOT go
to jail, by law, as in Japan? In the US, people cry
out for the blood of even eight and ten year old
killers. Not in Japan. The police apprehend young
killers in the US, and they can be tried as adults,
facing life sentences in prison. Not in Japan.
> Take a look at the FBI crime reports in the library the next time
> you are in the United States. For the serious crimes that people
> tend to be most concerned about and are used in the FBI's crime
> index (homicide, rape, robbery, assault, burglary, theft), the crime
> is solved less than half of the time in all of these cases except
> homicide (about two thirds).
>
> A lot of arrests never got to trial here, due to plea-bargaining.
The US, unlike Japan or Japan experts/
supporters, promoting Japan's over 99%
conviction rate, does NOT misuse such data to
pretend or give the mistaken impression it is
effective against ALL crime. It is, however, true
that US crime levels are the lowest in decades,
while Japanese crime rates are rising to a new
peak.
If you read my posts, you would know I do not
believe the US legal system is great, or that many
crimes are solved. I have explicitly posted that
only 17% of murders are solved in the US, or that
a single percentage point of rapists are convicted.
It is PRECISELY why I am outraged by lenient
treatment of scum, and why I want them
apprehended and killed immediately.
I am simply debunking the myth of the almost
perfect Japanese conviction rate and what it
means, which even I believed until reading the
Japanese report last month.
> Innocent people have been executed before, despite the extensive
> (and expensive) legal appeals allowed the condemned prisoner.
Life sucks, huh. So don't live a life which will lead
people to believe you are capable of committing
crimes worthy of death. I am not afraid of being
wrongly executed, because the chances are rather
remote. Somewhere under a hundred innocents are
known to have been wrongly executed in the past
couple of decades. Ooooooo, a real epidemic. I am
more likely to die, and probably WILL die, of
secondhand smoke, keel over of a heart attack, or
succumb to hereditary cancer, things which kill
MILLIONS every year, as a matter of course.
Innocents being executed is inexcusable, but I do
not fear for myself or my loved ones. I DO fear
being victimized by scum, even in Japan, living
down the block from police headquarters.
> In many states, a death sentence is essentially equivalent to
> life no parole, since death row prisoners tend to die of natural
> causes before reaching the executioner.
So kill scum immediately. Waste NO money on
maintaining scum. Kill more scum as they reveal
themselves. No scum, no crime. As simple as it
gets.
> Speeding up the appeals
> process would reduce the monetary cost, but at a higher risk of
> executing wrongly convicted persons.
Life sucks, huh.
Eric Takabayashi
Fukuyama, Japan
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Age 16 is the age with the highest rate of arrests.
So kill them, too. Simple.
> b. Fills up the prison system with aging criminals whose criminal
> behavior is on decline (in California, the third strike need not
> be as serious or violent as the first two, in order to get a life
> sentence), while younger criminals who are more dangerous still
> get the "revolving door".
So kill them, too. Simple.
Either the US has the lowest crime rates in
decades, or it does not. Either the US has the most
citizens incarcerated on earth (we have many
more people than Russia), or not, because the US
is trying to be more serious on crime. Whatever.
Keep it up. I love it. But spend less, and don't give
scum human rights. Kill them.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> But here's a real sad reality. *It's not really stopping criminals.*
How to eliminate nearly ALL crime, MUCH more
effectively than gun control (Never heard of
knives, clubs, rope, poison, runaway cars, bare
hands and feet or simple force of numbers as
lethal weapons, brilliant liberal politicians?
That's what scum, particularly juveniles, use in
Japan. Simple junior high kids with knives and
other daily implements, killing innocent
bystanders in public literally panicked Japan two
years ago.): apprehend all scum. Utilize the
military. Sweep through certain communities.
Kill all scum you find. Confiscate all illegal
weapons, drugs, etc. Make my community safe so I
need not desire a firearm or any other defensive
measures. My family and I will live safe and
happy. Are you concerned about threats to your
own rights or well-being? Then you are living
the wrong kind of life, or live in the wrong
community.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Regarding drugs, drug treatment has been found to be 7 times more
> cost effective at preventing future drug abuse than imprisonment
> is.
Yes. But as for today's scum, who threaten and
harm us today, apprehend and eliminate all of
them.
> Not to mention the fact that imprisonment takes up jail and
> prison space that could be used for really dangerous criminals
> (murderers, rapists, robbers, burglars, thieves), and that imprisoning
> someone whose only crime was drugs may result in the prisoner being
> socialized with more dangerous criminals, thus becoming a more dangerous
> criminal when released.
Oh. They are "only" junkies and dealers. Why am I
not crying? Don't want to go to prison, where you
may be abused, raped, killed, or officially
executed? DON'T GO. Millions of people live in
poverty in the US in harsh environments. But
they choose NOT to become criminal scum. I
harbor NO ill will against them. But I have no
sympathy for scum. They should die.
> Efficient use of prison space is another thing to consider. Some of
> the policies that we have now don't seem to make a lot of sense.
You know how I believe we can clear out our
prisons to save money and space. Learn from our
friends in Asia or the Middle East. I do not care
about human rights, when regarding scum.
> For example, compare the penalties listed in the United States Code for
> manslaughter (18 USC 1112 says up to 10 years) versus simple possession
> of 6 grams of crack cocaine (21 USC 844 says 5 to 20 years).
So treat these criminals fairly. Eliminate them
both. Don't want to die? Don't commit crime.
Timothy J. Lee
|You know how I believe we can clear out our
|prisons to save money and space. Learn from our
|friends in Asia or the Middle East. I do not care
|about human rights, when regarding scum.
Many governments in the world define "scum" in this context
to include "anyone who does not agree with the politics of
the current ruling party". Is that what you had in mind?
moo shu guy
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
> Timothy Lee wrote:
> effective against ALL crime. It is, however, true
> that US crime levels are the lowest in decades,
> while Japanese crime rates are rising to a new
> peak.
do you think this is due to economic conditions, or basic changes in social
structure?
> Life sucks, huh. So don't live a life which will lead
> people to believe you are capable of committing
> crimes worthy of death. I am not afraid of being
> wrongly executed, because the chances are rather
> remote. Somewhere under a hundred innocents are
> known to have been wrongly executed in the past
> couple of decades. Ooooooo, a real epidemic. I am
> more likely to die, and probably WILL die, of
> secondhand smoke, keel over of a heart attack, or
> succumb to hereditary cancer, things which kill
> MILLIONS every year, as a matter of course.
> Innocents being executed is inexcusable, but I do
> not fear for myself or my loved ones. I DO fear
> being victimized by scum, even in Japan, living
> down the block from police headquarters.
you say executing innocents is inexcusable, but you mention odds of innocents
dying from all sorts of other things as being just a matter of fact (by
implication the execution of innocents is the same?), and a price that you
are willing to pay for the presumably lower odds of dying at the hands of
criminals (possibly true that death sentence might deter some, but i don't
think good data supporting that exists, eg crime rates between states w/ and
w/o capital punishment). establishing an extremely rigid heirarchical
society would probably help that too, as the extreme scrutiny to which all
members would be subjected would leave them little room to think that they
could get away with any crime. i guess it's just a matter of how much you
are willing to give up to live "safer", like mandatory vaccinations, etc
(which definitely kill some "innocent" people), as a price to pay for living
in a society.
> So kill scum immediately. Waste NO money on
> maintaining scum. Kill more scum as they reveal
> themselves. No scum, no crime. As simple as it
> gets.
what's your definition of scum? any crime? any violent act? murder only?
first degree murder only?
> > Speeding up the appeals
> > process would reduce the monetary cost, but at a higher risk of
> > executing wrongly convicted persons.
> Life sucks, huh.
so basically rather than "executing innocents is inexcusable", it should be
"execution of innocents is an inevitable price for order that i prefer to fear
of violent crime (scum?)".
msg
ConfuZed
<et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp> wrote in message
news:7ddjsj$h7u$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> You know how I believe we can clear out our
> prisons to save money and space. Learn from our
> friends in Asia or the Middle East. I do not care
> about human rights, when regarding scum.
>
> > For example, compare the penalties listed in the United States
Code for
> > manslaughter (18 USC 1112 says up to 10 years) versus simple
possession
> > of 6 grams of crack cocaine (21 USC 844 says 5 to 20 years).
>
> So treat these criminals fairly. Eliminate them
> both. Don't want to die? Don't commit crime.
>
> Eric Takabayashi
> Fukuyama, Japan
>
w00...@my-dejanews.com
***** Well, earlier it was told to the public that Scott Strothers would not
face the death penalty, thanks to Ohio law pecularities. (Had he shot TWO
people, or been trying to rob Penny, etc. THEN he'd be looking at death.)
He's been charged with aggravated murder and concealed weapon charges.
Today's news reports that if convicted he faces a max of 23 years. Mrs.
W00dyee suggests that if he's a good boy in jail, he might actually have to
do 15 years. Since the killer is a 21 year old man, that means he'd get out
at age 36..... free to date, live a full life, continue attacking family if
he wishes or whatever. Even if he did the max of 23 years, he'd only be 44...
and that's a lot of life ahead of him. Not so for Penny Chang, 15, the school
girl this creep harrassed for several months before stalking and shooting
dead with four shots. Of course his lawyers may plead insanity. Either way,
he's not looking at a ton of time; his life is far from ruined.
w00...@my-dejanews.com
>
> So kill them, too. Simple.
>
> > b. Fills up the prison system with aging criminals whose criminal
> > behavior is on decline (in California, the third strike need not
> > be as serious or violent as the first two, in order to get a life
> > sentence), while younger criminals who are more dangerous still
> > get the "revolving door".
>
> So kill them, too. Simple.
>
> Either the US has the lowest crime rates in
> decades, or it does not. Either the US has the most
> citizens incarcerated on earth (we have many
> more people than Russia), or not, because the US
> is trying to be more serious on crime. Whatever.
> Keep it up. I love it. But spend less, and don't give
> scum human rights. Kill them.
>
> Eric Takabayashi
> Fukuyama, Japan
>
***** Currently about 1 out of every 150 Americans is behind bars. The only
nation with a greater percentage of citizens as prisoners is Russia! (Of
course, there are also those who are 'prisoners' in the sense of being
afraid/unable to walk outside in their neighborhoods at night, go to the
local mall because of gun-totting gang-bangers or stalkers, ... YOU KNOW,
BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS)
Here's an article that reports 1.8 million Americans are behind bars--double
the number 12 years ago!!!!!!!!!!! I doubt any nation comes close to that 1.8
million total prisoners number! (Russia has smaller population.) So WE'RE
NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! ;) Another amazing statistics--according to
some liberal group, at least, over one million Americans are in jail for
non-violent offenses alone! Check out this article.... Me, I agree--get tough
on the criminalss. Keep building more prisons, sure. Maybe pick out a few
states and put a fence around 'em and call them a federal prison... like
escape from new york. 1.8 million is more than the population of several
states!!!!!!!!!
Given the general lawlessness in America, that may be necessary some day! I
think I'd rather have those 1.8 million behind bars than on the streets! I
ain't no liberal! But when's it gonna stop/plateau?
http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WAPO/19990325/V000019-032599-idx.html
More Than 1M Nonviolent Prisoners
By Anne Gearan
Associated Press Writer
Thursday, March 25, 1999; 3:34 p.m. EST
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Get-tough crime-fighting policies such as
mandatory minimum sentences and ``three strikes, you're out'' laws helped
drive the number of nonviolent inmates in American jails and prisons
above 1 million last year, a group that opposes minimum sentences says.
The report Wednesday from the liberal-oriented Justice Policy Institute
concluded that since 1978, the number of criminals entering jail or prison
for violent offenses doubled, while those entering incarceration for
nonviolent convictions tripled.
The study follows a Justice Department report earlier this month that
showed the country's prison and jail population overall rose to about 1.8
million by the middle of last year -- its highest level ever and double the
number from 12 years before.
The liberal institute used the recent Justice Department statistics to
calculate the national breakdown of violent and nonviolent prisoners.
The Justice Department study did not break down violent and nonviolent
prisoners in the same way. But a department statistician, Allen J. Beck,
did not quibble with the Justice Policy Institute's calculation that the
nonviolent population has topped 1 million.
Beck did note that the most dramatic growth in all prison populations
peaked several years ago, and that the latter 1990s have been marked by
relative stability. ``The story is a lot more complex,'' than a simple
breakdown of violent and nonviolent inmates suggests, Beck said.
``Another problem is that here are some fairly serious offenses that are
considered nonviolent -- burglary, arson and drug trafficking for example
-- that reasonable people would consider very serious offenses,'' Beck
said.
Justice Department statistics from mid-1998 show 74 percent of local jail
inmates, 53 percent of state prison inmates, and 88 percent of federal
prisoners ``were imprisoned for offenses which involved neither harm nor
the threat of harm to a victim,'' the Justice Policy Institute's report said.
The report estimates that at the end of 1998, there were 440,088
nonviolent jail inmates, 639,280 nonviolent state prison inmates and
106,090 nonviolent federal prisoners for a national total of 1,185,458
nonviolent prisoners.
The report calls 1998 the first full year the nonviolent prison population
was above 1 million, but its authors noted that the total has hovered near 1
million for several years, and may have actually passed that mark late in
1997.
Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., cited the study as he pushed for legislation
eliminating mandatory five-year penalties for crack cocaine crimes and an
end to the sentencing disparity between offenses for crack and powder
cocaine.
© Copyright 1999 The Associated Press
w00...@my-dejanews.com
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
> w00dyee wrote:
>
> > But here's a real sad reality. *It's not really stopping criminals.*
>
> How to eliminate nearly ALL crime, MUCH more
> effectively than gun control
**** Gun control is a crucial first step.
(Never heard of
> knives, clubs, rope, poison, runaway cars, bare
> hands and feet or simple force of numbers as
> lethal weapons, brilliant liberal politicians?
> That's what scum, particularly juveniles, use in
> Japan.
***** You ought to see things here in the U.S.!!!! Nine year olds, literally,
bringing guns to school!! And the usual knives, etc. Pitiful.
Simple junior high kids with knives and
> other daily implements, killing innocent
> bystanders in public literally panicked Japan two
> years ago.): apprehend all scum. Utilize the
> military. Sweep through certain communities.
> Kill all scum you find. Confiscate all illegal
> weapons, drugs, etc. Make my community safe so I
> need not desire a firearm or any other defensive
> measures. My family and I will live safe and
> happy. Are you concerned about threats to your
> own rights or well-being? Then you are living
> the wrong kind of life, or live in the wrong
> community.
***** That may be true in Japan. But in the U.S. there is no safety living in
'good' neighborhoods. Shaker Heights, where little Penny Chang, 15, was gunned
down in probably the most upscale neighborhood in the whole city! Lawlessness,
drugs, etc. don't exactly limit themselves to 'bad' neighborhoods.
>
> Eric Takabayashi
> Fukuyama, Japan
Don Kirkman
<timleeF9...@netcom.com>:
>et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp writes:
>|Don Kirkman wrote:
>|> This has bothered me for a long time (I spent 20-some years in and
>|> around the justice system); laws usually seem to be written with the
>|> assumption that everybody is rational, motivated by common cultural
>|> standards, and driven by conscience.
>| As reported in the Japan
>|Times, juveniles aged 14-19 are apprehended in
>|about half of violent crimes, including murder.
>|Not even "children" should get away with killing.
>|Criminals under 16 cannot face jail time in
>|Japan. Criminals under 14 cannot be prosecuted
>|AT ALL, NO MATTER WHAT.
>Lenient treatment of juvenile criminals is similar in the United
>States. Juveniles make up a disproportionate number of arrests
>(age 16 being the peak in the United States). A murder conviction
>as an adult in California gets 15 years to life or more (including
>the possibility of life without parole or death, if there are special
>circumstances). As a juvenile, a murder conviction gets a term
>in the California Youth Authority until one is 25.
>To some extent, there seems to be the assumption that juvenile
>criminals will be dealt with by their parents. That is probably
>a correct assumption in cases where a strong family can straighten
>out the errant juvenile before he becomes a hardened criminal (e.g.
>a kid caught doing graffiti and other vandalism was released to his
>parents; he was forced to clean it up (among other punishment) by
>his father). But it most likely fails those from broken, neglectful,
>or abusive families, or those whose "family" is a criminal gang,
>allowing the progression to hardened criminals.
This assumption is a relic of the history of juvenile courts and
probation which needs serious reexamination and creative thinking. The
original premise was that the court/probation system was _in loco
parentis_ (i.e., taking the place of the [presumably ineffective]
parents). The entire emphasis was on establishing quasi-parental
discipline, not on punishment per se. In the last few decades this
philosophy has come into glaring conflict with the fact that much of
American hard core crime is among juveniles and young adults. There are
still a number of juveniles who really just need a guiding hand. My
working philosophy was that about 20% just needed a scare and some
attention and would never be back, about 20% were hard core and would
probably end up in prison or dead on the street no matter what anybody
did, and the middle 60% could go either way depending on what
combination of discipline, education, counseling, and punishment the
system gave them; I'd probably adjust the hard core figures upward
nowadays, but the ratios will fluctuate under the influence of other
social changes.
[...]
>A lot of arrests never got to trial here, due to plea-bargaining.
This is another area that needs serious reconsideration. The popular
image is that plea-bargaining is soft on crime; there is some of that
but the problem is broader than that. Plea bargains often get evidence,
usually testimony, from less involved defendant that helps put away the
more culpable ones. Maybe even more important, though, is that plea
bargains are a way of moving cases through the system in bulk and at
lower cost; the courts simply don't have the staff or the money that
would be needed to have full trials in every case, and I don't see any
signs that society is about to provide those resources.
[...]
--
Don
Timothy J. Lee
|Timothy Lee wrote:
|
|> Lenient treatment of juvenile criminals is similar in the United
|> States.
|
|internationally infamous Kobe killer CANNOT go
|to jail, by law, as in Japan? In the US, people cry
|out for the blood of even eight and ten year old
|killers. Not in Japan. The police apprehend young
|killers in the US, and they can be tried as adults,
|facing life sentences in prison. Not in Japan.
In the United States, state laws vary, but there is usually
a minimum age to be eligible to be tried as an adult. There
was a recent case of a very vicious murder with a 10 year old
suspect, where the suspect could not be tried as an adult due
to his age.
|> Innocent people have been executed before, despite the extensive
|> (and expensive) legal appeals allowed the condemned prisoner.
|
|Life sucks, huh. So don't live a life which will lead
|people to believe you are capable of committing
|crimes worthy of death. I am not afraid of being
|wrongly executed, because the chances are rather
|remote.
Perhaps you'd like to move to a place where they routinely
shoot first and ask questions later to test that risk?
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> what's your definition of scum? any crime? any violent act? murder only?
> first degree murder only?
Traffic tickets would probably not deserve death,
unless collisions, property damage, or injury
were involved. People who knowingly or
deliberately profit or get off victimizing others,
probably meet my definition of scum. Felons are
surely scum.
> so basically rather than "executing innocents is inexcusable", it should be
> "execution of innocents is an inevitable price for order that i prefer to fear
> of violent crime (scum?)".
Innocents are already dying, as capital
punishment is perfectly legal in the US. The
general public or courts are not so outraged or
concerned that capital punishment is abolished
again. Don't look at me like I'm a deviant.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Many governments in the world define "scum" in this context
> to include "anyone who does not agree with the politics of
> the current ruling party". Is that what you had in mind?
That depends on the opinions or politics of the
scum. There are groups that do not deserve to
exist. It is not mere disagreement of opinion.
These groups are criminal, or promote criminal
acts. You know, cute things like burning churches
and houses, beating and killing minorities, etc.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> **** Gun control is a crucial first step.
Criminals will not give up their guns, while law
abiding citizens are rendered helpless. Have you
forgotten? Even without guns or ANY weapons, I
would be helpless against just a gang of juveniles.
Law abiding citizens deserve protection.
> ***** You ought to see things here in the U.S.!!!! Nine year olds, literally,
> bringing guns to school!! And the usual knives, etc. Pitiful.
Apprehend them. Kill them.
> ***** That may be true in Japan. But in the U.S. there is no safety living in
> 'good' neighborhoods. Shaker Heights, where little Penny Chang, 15, was gunned
> down in probably the most upscale neighborhood in the whole city! Lawlessness,
> drugs, etc. don't exactly limit themselves to 'bad' neighborhoods.
I said, apprehend all scum and kill them. If that
scum had been apprehended and killed right away,
he would not have been alive to harm the Chang
family. No scum, no crime. It cannot be any
simpler.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> In the United States, state laws vary, but there is usually
> a minimum age to be eligible to be tried as an adult.
Yep. What a pity. Even as a small child, I knew it
was wrong to attack and kill people. There is no
excuse. Even young scum should die.
> There
> was a recent case of a very vicious murder with a 10 year old
> suspect, where the suspect could not be tried as an adult due
> to his age.
The age in Japan is 16, nationwide. That is bull.
Even elementary school children know it is wrong
to attack and kill people. Scum should not get away
with any crime because of age.
> Perhaps you'd like to move to a place where they routinely
> shoot first and ask questions later to test that risk?
That would be living in the wrong community, as I
mentioned. Don't. Even impovershed people, or
those living off welfare can and do move. They do
cute stupid things like fly their entire families to
Hawaii, believing they can live off the land, get
better benefits, or at least live off welfare in a
more scenic environment. Talk to some
government employees to hear more cute stories.
Then are the people who study or work hard, lift
themselves up and get out, like my friend from
South Central with the Master's degree. He got out
of a place where he claimed people could not even
wear nice clothes without the threat of death at
the hands of gangsters. He complains, but does not
use his race or upbringing as an excuse, or place
limits on himself. People should take their
inspiration from the many like him.
I don't look or live like a criminal. I have never
lived in undue fear of police or persecution, even
back home. We now have big name gangs, hard
drugs and guns in the schools, even in rural
Hawaii. Guess who I fear more? If police did their
jobs better and eliminated the scum, maybe I'd be
more inclined to return to the US. Do you fear
police more than your local scum? Something is
wrong.
When speaking to police officers, I call them
"Sir" or "Ma'am," regardless of age (unless they
are personal friends). I obey every instruction
and order they give me, even if I don't agree,
believe they have more important things to do
than talk to me, or do not like them personally. If
I did fear police, or police were unreasonably
brutal, I would live even more carefully. Or get
out.
Even when reading shocking sources like The
Revolutionary Worker, official newspaper of the
American Communist Party (still alive and well-
check out their website), there is usually
something wrong when police/military kill some
non-criminals. I don't live like that. Sometimes
there are outright police screwups and racism, as
when they kill blacks on the street because they
"looked like" they had weapons, break down a door
and shoot an elderly black woman because they
thought it was a drug dealer's house, fire 41 shots
at an unarmed immigrant at home thinking he is a
rapist going for a gun, or outright deliberately
kill people and try to cover it up with throwdown
guns, etc. Someone needs to be held responsible
and punished accordingly in cases like that. Tell
me what else I could do in such communities than
protest or get out of town.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Here's an article that reports 1.8 million Americans are behind bars--double
> the number 12 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!
And crime rates the lowest in about four decades.
Yahoo. Now America just needs to waste less. Stop
feeding, clothing, and housing scum, when
millions of law abiding, decent human beings go
jobless, homeless and hungry. There are tens of
millions in Asia and Africa starving to death.
Millions are already dead, while the US and others
stand idly by out of apathy or politics. Cry for
them, not scum. Tell the government to help them,
not scum. News sez the US wastes about 20% of
its food. We pay farmers NOT to grow. Japan
wastes about 40% of its food. South Korea wastes
about 45% of its food. We would not be deprived of
anything to save all these innocent people whose
only crime is living under communist or corrupt
regimes. Hate the criminals, not the civilians.
> according to
> some liberal group, at least, over one million Americans are in jail for
> non-violent offenses alone! Check out this article....
Note the different accounting methods, when
counting these "non-violent" scum. Ask me if I
care if people imprisoned on drug offenses, etc.,
live or die. Don't want to go to jail? DON'T
COMMIT CRIME! People are stupid.
> Me, I agree--get tough
> on the criminalss. Keep building more prisons, sure. Maybe pick out a few
> states and put a fence around 'em and call them a federal prison... like
> escape from new york. 1.8 million is more than the population of several
> states!!!!!!!!!
My vote is for keeping scum in the desert, if they
simply must be kept alive. Let them provide for
themselves, including growing their own food,
like that ingenious warden in Arizona. I don't care
whether he is effective or not. He has already
saved HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars, by NOT
building new prisons, but keeping his prisoners
in open air tents left over from Desert Storm,
provided by the US Army. The most remote
wastelands of Alaska are another good place. Make
it our Siberia. Remember to provide no heat or
warm clothing. The barren lava rock of
southeastern Hawaii is also good. That volcano is
still active. Caught in a random lava flow? Oops.
> But when's it gonna stop/plateau?
When all scum are dead or behind bars, of course.
Unfortunately, some people care more about the
"human rights" of scum, than their victims and
other decent human beings.
Eric Takabayashi
Fukuyama, Japan
Timothy J. Lee
|Timothy J. Lee wrote:
|
|> Many governments in the world define "scum" in this context
|> to include "anyone who does not agree with the politics of
|> the current ruling party". Is that what you had in mind?
|
|That depends on the opinions or politics of the
|scum. There are groups that do not deserve to
|exist. It is not mere disagreement of opinion.
|These groups are criminal, or promote criminal
|acts. You know, cute things like burning churches
|and houses, beating and killing minorities, etc.
And if the "scum" like that happens to gain control
of the government, as has happened in many places
many times in history?
moo shu guy
> |Timothy J. Lee wrote:
> And if the "scum" like that happens to gain control
> of the government, as has happened in many places
> many times in history?
we say "stop it, or else" a dozen times until they decide they wanna test what
"or else" means, and then we gotta bomb them into submission, or at least try.
msg
moo shu guy
> > what's your definition of scum? any crime? any violent act? murder only?
> > first degree murder only?
> Traffic tickets would probably not deserve death,
> unless collisions, property damage, or injury
> were involved. People who knowingly or
> deliberately profit or get off victimizing others,
> probably meet my definition of scum. Felons are
> surely scum.
> > so basically rather than "executing innocents is inexcusable", it should be
> > "execution of innocents is an inevitable price for order that i prefer to
fear
> > of violent crime (scum?)".
> Innocents are already dying, as capital
> punishment is perfectly legal in the US. The
> general public or courts are not so outraged or
> concerned that capital punishment is abolished
> again. Don't look at me like I'm a deviant.
what if you ARE a deviant? celebrate your deviance! ;)
your proposed expansion of capital punishment outside of the current bounds
to include all "scum"/felons/whatever it is that you choose as your final cut
point, is outside of the bounds of what most people (and the courts) think
reasonable, as obviously nothing other than 1st deg murder (once in a long
while treason) warrants death penalty in the current society.
perhaps you want this to change, but for the time being, this is deviant.
a natural outgrowth of increasing the number/types of crimes punishable by
death is that MORE innocent people will die. in general people are not all
or nothing shooters, just because they accept maybe 1 wrongful execution per
year doesn't mean they will be indifferent (not outraged or concerned) to 10
per year.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> And if the "scum" like that happens to gain control
> of the government, as has happened in many places
> many times in history?
Then the people and country would suffer, as has
been seen in many places, many times in history,
and continues today in certain countries and
regions. But why are you asking me? I would not
give scum the right to exist in the first place.
They would not be able to harm decent human
beings.
Eric Takabayashi
Fukuyama, Japan
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> your proposed expansion of capital punishment outside of the current bounds
> to include all "scum"/felons/whatever it is that you choose as your final cut
> point, is outside of the bounds of what most people (and the courts) think
> reasonable, as obviously nothing other than 1st deg murder (once in a long
> while treason) warrants death penalty in the current society.
And there's the rub. If all scum were eliminated,
we'd have no crime. But no, they get slaps on the
wrist, one to five with time off for good behavior,
get paroled, get found not guilty, and stupid things
like that, allowing them to continue harming and
killing others. And the legal system or a soft
society which cares about rights for scum, allow
them to do it.
But we are talking about the US standard. Give it
up. Like I said, learn from our friends in Asia and
the Middle East. Don't want your hand AND a foot
cut off for stealing bread? Don't steal bread. Don't
want to be publicly whipped or stoned to death for
adultery? Don't commit adultery. Don't want to
get hanged for drug possession? Don't possess
drugs. Don't want to be publicly beheaded for
murder? Don't murder. People are so stupid. Do
not ever expect me to feel sorry for scum.
> perhaps you want this to change, but for the time being, this is deviant.
> a natural outgrowth of increasing the number/types of crimes punishable by
> death is that MORE innocent people will die. in general people are not all
> or nothing shooters, just because they accept maybe 1 wrongful execution per
> year doesn't mean they will be indifferent (not outraged or concerned) to 10
> per year.
Now read any of my past posts about wiping out
scum, and note the places where I say the legal
system should be improved, to cut back on killing
people who had not committed crime. (But
perhaps they had committed other crimes or had a
previous record, so why should I care if they are
killed for something else?) Do I like innocent
people dying? No, it is EXACTLY why I would wipe
out scum. Who kills more, the legal system, or
scum? WHY are you worried about your
government, instead of scum? It is also law
abiding people's responsibility not to live in a
way which would lead others to suspect they are
scum, to stay out of trouble.
Including people shot by cops, people dying in
police chases, innocent bystanders caught in a
crossfire or chase, shoplifters and other "soft"
criminals dying in jail, etc., I have no doubt many
more than ten a year are dying. If you believe
sources like The Revolutionary Worker, which
specializes in such info, the racist US government
is practicing outright genocide against people of
color. Funny. There are also people who get moist
eyed talking about ANY poor scum being abused or
killed by fellow scum, or by the government.
There are people who get outraged murderers
can't get (FREE!) cable TV, conjugal visits, better
food, child care and many other things millions of
law abiding citizens simply cannot, do not have.
Perhaps anyone reading cares about human rights
for scum, or would cry or start a petition for a
murderer who can't get FREE cable and other
benefits in prison. I will not publicly comment on
what I think about people who value scum more
than the innocent people victimized by scum.
Personally I don't care enough to do anything to
aid scum. They shouldn't be alive to begin with.
If the scum-free world I envision is not good
enough or fearful for some people, let society
regress to its original form after giving it a try,
or just let it continue as it is now, and they should
not have the right to complain about the sorry
state of society or being victimized themselves,
because they could and should have done something
to improve it. An opponent of capital punishment
get killed by someone out on parole? A gun control
advocate get killed in their own home by a mere
punk, while waiting for the police to arrive?
Don't ask me to sympathize.
Jeff Luan
May you rest in peace, Penny, and may your death be another step towards the
justice we all seek.
As for this guy... makes you wonder what his Dad might have done when HE was 21,
hmmm?
Susan Cohen wrote:
> w00...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > DAD DESCRIBES A TROUBLED SON
> >
> > "That's brilliant planning, isn't it?" Kenneth Strothers said yesterday. "He
> > wore earplugs.It's like him to think of something like that."
>
> Well, this explains a lot.
>
> Susan
moo shu guy
> > your proposed expansion of capital punishment outside of the current bounds
> > to include all "scum"/felons/whatever it is that you choose as your final
cut
> > point, is outside of the bounds of what most people (and the courts) think
> > reasonable, as obviously nothing other than 1st deg murder (once in a long
> > while treason) warrants death penalty in the current society.
> And there's the rub. If all scum were eliminated,
> we'd have no crime. But no, they get slaps on the
> wrist, one to five with time off for good behavior,
> get paroled, get found not guilty, and stupid things
> like that, allowing them to continue harming and
> killing others. And the legal system or a soft
mmm, maybe if you drop killing from the "continue..." list, eh ok. but if 2nd
degree isn't killing in commission of a felony, that's 1st deg, so all this
biz about time off and stuff doesn't apply to the current acceptable extent
of capital punishment.
> But we are talking about the US standard. Give it
> up. Like I said, learn from our friends in Asia and
> the Middle East. Don't want your hand AND a foot
> cut off for stealing bread? Don't steal bread. Don't
> want to be publicly whipped or stoned to death for
> adultery? Don't commit adultery. Don't want to
> get hanged for drug possession? Don't possess
> drugs. Don't want to be publicly beheaded for
> murder? Don't murder. People are so stupid. Do
> not ever expect me to feel sorry for scum.
but even your examples given, not all the "scum" are killed. so are you
saying "kill all the scum" or "don't coddle the scum". it's a big
difference. you won't find a lot of support for the former, pretty deviant.
for the latter, you'll find sympathizers tho, example polls wanted that
michael fay caned in singapore for vandalism. kill him tho? no.
> Now read any of my past posts about wiping out
> scum, and note the places where I say the legal
> system should be improved, to cut back on killing
> people who had not committed crime. (But
> perhaps they had committed other crimes or had a
> previous record, so why should I care if they are
> killed for something else?) Do I like innocent
> people dying? No, it is EXACTLY why I would wipe
> out scum. Who kills more, the legal system, or
> scum? WHY are you worried about your
> government, instead of scum? It is also law
> abiding people's responsibility not to live in a
> way which would lead others to suspect they are
> scum, to stay out of trouble.
because, when they make mistakes carelessly, and don't really care about it,
makes the gov't scum too. who executes the executioners? it's really hard to
maintain any illusion of morality if you callously take life.
> There are people who get outraged murderers
> can't get (FREE!) cable TV, conjugal visits, better
> food, child care and many other things millions of
> law abiding citizens simply cannot, do not have.
well those people are idiots i think. but i think a general call for blood is
not the proper answer either.
msg
Sean Chang
>When all scum are dead or behind bars, of course.
>Unfortunately, some people care more about the
>"human rights" of scum, than their victims and
>other decent human beings.
>
>Eric Takabayashi
>Fukuyama, Japan
>
Sean Chang
the whole damn thing makes me sick....
To think that this maniac may only get 5 years
since Ohio's damn laws are so lenient pisses me off.
Nothing would satisfy me more than
see this fucker spend the rest of his
life behind bars, but that is a long ways away...
kkramer
we give life for death?
Keith
Sean Chang wrote in message <7drsjj$iqq$1...@news.cis.ohio-state.edu>...
w00...@my-dejanews.com
brother? I note that you have a posting history from OSU going back into last
year. I know Penny's brother Sean is a student at OSU. I just want to say
that a lot of people were so saddened by Penny's senseless death--as you can
tell, in the case of the Internet, literally all the way from Japan to
Cleveland. A lot of people extend their sympathies to the entire Chang family
and offer our support.
In the case of laws favoring criminals over victims, I thought Mr. Chang put
it very powerfully when interviewed on local Cleveland TV and spoke of "human
rights."
If Strothers gets off easy for what he did it will be, literally, a crime.
In article <7drs5o$ild$1...@news.cis.ohio-state.edu>,
"Sean Chang" <chan...@osu.edu> wrote:
> I'll have to agree with what you say.....
>
> >When all scum are dead or behind bars, of course.
> >Unfortunately, some people care more about the
> >"human rights" of scum, than their victims and
> >other decent human beings.
> >
> >Eric Takabayashi
> >Fukuyama, Japan
> >
w00...@my-dejanews.com
"Sean Chang" <chan...@osu.edu> wrote:
> Heh...
> the whole damn thing makes me sick....
>
> To think that this maniac may only get 5 years
> since Ohio's damn laws are so lenient pisses me off.
>
> Nothing would satisfy me more than
> see this fucker spend the rest of his
> life behind bars, but that is a long ways away...
>
Sean Chang
would even support him like this - getting a prominent
lawyer so that the chances of this guy getting back on the
streets are increased, in which case there are STRONG
suspicions that he will kill again.
Right now I am angered that the laws are going to take
at least a few more months before any justice (or injustice) of any
form is served.
I am angered that the crime was not classified as a capital crime,
since it did not fit into any of the OBJECTIVE "criteria" set by
Ohio's inadequate law system.
I am angered that he even has the remotest POSSIBLITY of getting
away with this easy.
WHAT THE HELL NEEDS TO BE SAID!?
The guy murdered my little sister in cold blood, in broad daylight, with
obvious premeditation. He could have left her lying on the ground
with only a bullet in her back, but came back to blast some more
lead into her head. It is almost unbearable thinking that I will
never, EVER, see her smile again - for she was my favorite sibling.
I was going to surprise her with gifts worth over $200, but now every
time I look at those they give me pain...
Is this guy mentally insane? No. He never was. In all 7 years that I was his
buddy, he showed nothing that would lead me or anyone around him to that
conclusion.
Everything he did was from a clear mind, and he always knew what he was
doing - he knew right from wrong.
There is no way this animal can be rehabilitated. They've tried calming him
down before, and the results of that are obvious.
.... and I agree that if he was let loose only after a few years, then
a true crime would be done to us by the American (in)justice system.
Done not just to our family, but to the rest of the US civilians not
involved.
What I can say is limited until after the sentencing. And please do not
go around telling EVERYONE what I said.
-Sean X. Chang
Sean Chang
Because of a few reasons:
-I want this guy to stew over this everyday for the rest of his damned life.
-Life in prison is often worse than death.
-The death penalty is not an option now, so there is little point
in discussing it. I would have agreed to it wholeheartedly had it been
an option. In fact, I would have liked limiting the options of punishment
to 2 : life in prison or death.
kkramer wrote in message ...
Sean Chang
I am open to any suggestions, though.
Sean Chang
Sean Chang wrote in message <7drsjj$iqq$1...@news.cis.ohio-state.edu>...
kkramer
refer you to Mr Jens Sund who wants to throw the switch (he seems to like
sparky to injection - me too)
The fact that your sister or daughter's murderer is alive means you must
spend the REST OF YOUR LIFE fighting his getting OUT. Sharon Tate's mother
is still hauled into parole hearings against CHARLIE MANSON 30 years later.
Is that closure? If Jenny's killer lives he can get out and my daughters
will be in danger. It is not your decision, your voice does count, but so
the voice of other parents of beautiful children.
Believe me, Hell is worst than prison and that's where he is going. Eternal
torment, 150 degrees, quenching for thirst day and night that is never
satisfied, screaming, gnashing of teeth... never ceasing... Which is
punishment? Prison where he has full medical care, recreation, access to
computers and libraries, free attorneys, shelter and food or HELL? May
Jenny's killer suffer eternally and soon. Oh, and don't think his
conscience will bother him. Sociopaths don't have consciences which is the
reason they can take a life. Take care and I am so ashamed of this country
for allowing your loss,
Keith
Sean Chang wrote in message <7dt93d$6iq$1...@news.cis.ohio-state.edu>...
Sean Chang
>spend the REST OF YOUR LIFE fighting his getting OUT.
+++Agreed. However, even if he would have been given the death penalty, I'm
going to have to deal with this anyways.
Sharon Tate's mother
>is still hauled into parole hearings against CHARLIE MANSON 30 years later.
>Is that closure
+++That's why I seek life in prison with no parole.
Besides, I wouldn't mind giving him a piece of my mind every now and then.
>Believe me, Hell is worst than prison and that's where he is going.
Eternal
>torment, 150 degrees, quenching for thirst day and night that is never
>satisfied, screaming, gnashing of teeth... never ceasing... Which is
>punishment?
+++That would be a nice thought, had I been brought up in a religious
environment.
Besides, I think that sometimes state prisons are confused with federal
prisons. The former I've heard is much worse. Since he will be put into a
run down state prison, I don't think that he will be enjoying
many of the "benefits" if prison. There is a whole wait list of people who
will do whatever they can to make sure that his life in prison wouldn't be
anything less than hell.
Sean Chang
>Assuming you are her sister, and you are young...
+++If that isn't evident yet, I'm her brother.
>If Jenny's...
+++Penny, named after her birth state.
kkramer
Sean Chang wrote in message <7dtiaf$9ru$1...@news.cis.ohio-state.edu>...
>>The fact that your sister or daughter's murderer is alive means you must
>>spend the REST OF YOUR LIFE fighting his getting OUT.
>
>+++Agreed. However, even if he would have been given the death penalty, I'm
>going to have to deal with this anyways.
^^^ Yeah, you could get drunk and celebrate. Attend the funeral to see
that he's really dead. Spit and dance on his grave. Nothing with the
righteous celebrating triumph. You could do it forever and you will always
know where he is.
>Sharon Tate's mother
>>is still hauled into parole hearings against CHARLIE MANSON 30 years
later.
>>Is that closure
>+++That's why I seek life in prison with no parole.
^^^ Some bleeding heart will try to let him out. It's cheaper.
>Besides, I wouldn't mind giving him a piece of my mind every now and then.
^^^ I will do it for you!
>>Believe me, Hell is worst than prison and that's where he is going.
>Eternal
>>torment, 150 degrees, quenching for thirst day and night that is never
>>satisfied, screaming, gnashing of teeth... never ceasing... Which is
>>punishment?
>
>+++That would be a nice thought, had I been brought up in a religious
>environment.
^^^ What time is it? Preaching time! I don't believe the world is round,
but it is. I don't believe in gravity, but it's there. Your not believing
in Hell doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Think on these words.
>Besides, I think that sometimes state prisons are confused with federal
>prisons. The former I've heard is much worse. Since he will be put into a
>run down state prison, I don't think that he will be enjoying
>many of the "benefits" if prison. There is a whole wait list of people who
>will do whatever they can to make sure that his life in prison wouldn't be
>anything less than hell.
^^^ Haven't you heard of the ACLU? If the ISP isn't working, the courts
order the guard to personally deliver the prisoners messages to whomever.
But, I give! Send him to a Mexican prison and tell everyone he is a serial
child molester and murderer.
What did this monster do to Jenny, Sean? Don't answer if it is a problem.
A senseless death is enough to inflame me and the details aren't needed for
me to get the full picture.
Keith
Sean Chang
Many times she couldn't sleep at night. Outside of that, she had
so much going for her. She was a computer prodigy, good looking ( in the
eyes of others ), and was a very friendly and socialble person.
It is a tragedy that her personality and looks attracted an asshole
like him. She couldn't escape, and the laws were working AGAINST her.
kkramer
for them. Men target women. They marry for a second income, not to protect
and provide. A woman should never become involved with a man that her
family doesn't approve of. Infatuation clouds judgment. And, who is more
interested in what is best for their child? If everyone would defer to the
opinion of parents, this would be a different world. Young people don't
know how dangerous experimenting is either, whether it be drugs or mates. I
am sure Penny did the same things I did when I was young. The sentence for
the killing, apparently in a heated moment hence manslaughter, is
nevertheless an insult. Society is saying that the scum's life is more
important than Penny. And, those who knew her, and we who did not, know
better.
Keith
Sean Chang wrote in message <7dtl4s$at7$1...@news.cis.ohio-state.edu>...
Paul J. Ellis
kkramer wrote:
> ^^^ What time is it? Preaching time! I don't believe the world is round,
> but it is. I don't believe in gravity, but it's there. Your not believing
> in Hell doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Think on these words.
But your words above give no reason to believe in the existence of hell either.
There is firm evidence for the roundness of the earth, and for the existence of
gravity. None such for the existence of hell.
kkramer
Paul J. Ellis
you're implying that "the book" contains firm evidence for the existence of
hell, then why would you discount other books, written much less than 2000
years ago, that also give "firm evidence" for a flat earth?
Admit it - your view is an opinion. And a shaky one at that.
paul
kkramer
glas
news:BtrM2.463$3O3....@news-west.eli.net...
| Assuming you are her sister, and you are young... And, if you are mom, I
| refer you to Mr Jens Sund who wants to throw the switch (he seems to like
| sparky to injection - me too)
|
mother
| is still hauled into parole hearings against CHARLIE MANSON 30 years
later.
| will be in danger. It is not your decision, your voice does count, but so
| the voice of other parents of beautiful children.
I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that Sharon Tate's mother
is dead now. Not to worry tho, Sharon's sister has taken up the battle.
If there was "truth in sentencing" and people could trust that "life without
parole" or even just a life sentence meant the criminal would actually stay
locked up for the rest of his\her life, perhaps there would be more support
for doing away with the death penalty.
glas
|
| Believe me, Hell is worst than prison and that's where he is going.
Eternal
| torment, 150 degrees, quenching for thirst day and night that is never
| satisfied, screaming, gnashing of teeth... never ceasing... Which is
| punishment? Prison where he has full medical care, recreation, access to
| computers and libraries, free attorneys, shelter and food or HELL? May
| Jenny's killer suffer eternally and soon. Oh, and don't think his
| conscience will bother him. Sociopaths don't have consciences which is
the
| reason they can take a life. Take care and I am so ashamed of this
country
| for allowing your loss,
| Keith
|
w00...@my-dejanews.com
"Sean Chang" <chan...@osu.edu> wrote:
> That's what I fear. It is sickening that his family
> would even support him like this - getting a prominent
> lawyer so that the chances of this guy getting back on the
> streets are increased, in which case there are STRONG
> suspicions that he will kill again.
>
***** I agree. Your family was already terrorized by this monster last fall.
And I believe the "system" (or maybe just a single judge) failed to protect
your rights. Strothers pleaded guilty to Arson and criminal damaging (trying
to burn down your garage, smashing your home's window, pouring glue in your
family car's gas tank) and also pleaded no contest to telephone harrassment
(the dozens or hundreds calls he made to your little sister)--and, as part of
the plea bargain, he got PROBATION! Never had to serve a day in jail!!! As
part of that probation deal, the judge ordered this beast to see a shrink at
the Cleveland Clinic, which he did for five weeks. They said he was simply
'anti-social' and fine when they last saw him. Ironically though, that now
lays the foundation for Strothers' upcoming claim of mental insanity!!!!!
(And a judge recently ruled that the county d.a. can't get a look at his
medical records at the clinic.)
Back in October, he should have been sent off to do some hard time for arson,
damaging, telephone harrassment. He'd done acts of *violence*--smashing a
window, trying to burn down the garage, etc. These were VIOLENT acts..... the
writing was on the wall. He was full of hate.
Strothers isn't insane. He's just an evil person who enjoys causing
sufferings. If doctors can take the evil out of person, then he can be
"cured"--but they can't. So what he should get is punishment. Why did the
court fail to give him even an ounce of punishment for all the harrassment
crimes that lead up to stalking and then murder? To me, that question must be
asked.
> Right now I am angered that the laws are going to take
> at least a few more months before any justice (or injustice) of any
> form is served.
> I am angered that the crime was not classified as a capital crime,
> since it did not fit into any of the OBJECTIVE "criteria" set by
> Ohio's inadequate law system.
**** Sean, you're 100% correct. I've been posting like crazy about how warped
Ohio laws are in this regard. For example, if he'd been trying to snatch
Penny's purse when he shot her, then it would be a capital offense. Just
stalking her wasn't bad enough, according to the law.... The law is
ridiculous.
> I am angered that he even has the remotest POSSIBLITY of getting
> away with this easy.
> WHAT THE HELL NEEDS TO BE SAID!?
**** Your father has been very eloquant. You are too. I hope people have been
listening.
When there is no justice, there are no "human rights."
Period.
> The guy murdered my little sister in cold blood, in broad daylight, with
> obvious premeditation. He could have left her lying on the ground
> with only a bullet in her back, but came back to blast some more
> lead into her head. It is almost unbearable thinking that I will
> never, EVER, see her smile again - for she was my favorite sibling.
> I was going to surprise her with gifts worth over $200, but now every
> time I look at those they give me pain...
**** Sean, my father recently died, so I know it takes a long time to get
over (if that's ever possible) the death of a person you love. A lot of
people's hearts go out to you and your whole family. My wife was really
saddened by your sister's death the instant she heard about it. Hey, we don't
live too far away, at all--and you know the Internet is "virtual" (this group
has some good, kind-hearted people). Anytime you need a friend to vent or
just to listen, send an e-mail. Seriously.... and sincerely.
I was really touched by something your dad said on TV. He said that his
students told him, "Mr. Chang you've lost a daughter. But now we will all be
40 daughters and sons for you." That was really great. A lot of people feel
that way.
If you could hear the many conversations I've heard across Cleveland, on mass
transit, in offices, etc. about Penny and how awful it was what happened/this
jerk being free to harrass your whole family, then you'd know how many people
do care. The whole city has felt horrible about what happened. And
helpless--because it already happened.
>
> Is this guy mentally insane? No. He never was. In all 7 years that I was his
> buddy, he showed nothing that would lead me or anyone around him to that
> conclusion.
> Everything he did was from a clear mind, and he always knew what he was
> doing - he knew right from wrong.
> There is no way this animal can be rehabilitated. They've tried calming him
> down before, and the results of that are obvious.
**** Sean, I want to ask a question, but the case will be coming to trial. I
guess you have to watch what you say. So I won't ask it. "Usenet" isn't the
place. No one wants to say or do a single thing that might somehow affect
the case. But I just hope the d.a. / Shaker police have recovered the e-mails
he sent your sister to examine the content of his harrassment/possible
threats and are turning over every stone to put together the strongest
possible case with "teeth." I'm sure they are.
>
> .... and I agree that if he was let loose only after a few years, then
> a true crime would be done to us by the American (in)justice system.
> Done not just to our family, but to the rest of the US civilians not
> involved.
****** He should have been jailed back in October for what he did. When
criminals are allowed to walk the street after harrassing a family and
smashing their property, etc. what kind of country is this?
I back you 110%.
Take good care, Sean. A lot of good wishes go out to you and all your
family.... you're good people, and a lot of people are on your side totally
in this.
>
> What I can say is limited until after the sentencing. And please do not
> go around telling EVERYONE what I said.
>
> -Sean X. Chang
>
> >In the case of laws favoring criminals over victims, I thought Mr. Chang
> put
> >it very powerfully when interviewed on local Cleveland TV and spoke of
> "human
> >rights."
> >
> >If Strothers gets off easy for what he did it will be, literally, a crime.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
w00...@my-dejanews.com
"Sean Chang" <chan...@osu.edu> wrote:
> Right now all ideas evade me.
> I am open to any suggestions, though.
***** I think your dad and you have been doing one important thing--you're
speaking out on the topic of 'victim's rights.' I just hope people listen.
People can't just tune it out--it's important... it's real life... and real
people are being hurt by horrible inanities in our legal system.
I just saw Fred Goldman on TV tonight, btw. And I thought of you and your
Usenet message that I'd read earlier today. I'd been posting about Penny's
murder here--this crime had hit close to home for a couple reasons--and
seeing a post from you, her brother, really hit hard. I think only someone
who has lost a loved one to violent crime can fully understand how you must
feel. Even if I think I understand... I really can't grasp the depth of it
all. Just know that a lot of people are also struggling to figure out the
answer(s).... and as I said, many people care very deeply and extend
sympathies to your family.
Take care, Sean.
>
> >***** Sean, what can we do as citizens to help make sure justice is upheld?
> >
Timothy J. Lee
| Strothers pleaded guilty to Arson and criminal damaging (trying
|to burn down your garage, smashing your home's window, pouring glue in your
|family car's gas tank) and also pleaded no contest to telephone harrassment
|(the dozens or hundreds calls he made to your little sister)--and, as part of
|the plea bargain, he got PROBATION! Never had to serve a day in jail!!! As
Was it the leniency with respect to lack of prison time for arson
due to the judge's discretion, or due to Ohio law (isn't arson a
felony punishable by prison time in many, if not most, places?)?
If the telephone harassment that he plead no contest to included
threats of violent crime, a similar question needs to be asked.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee timlee@
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. netcom.com
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
w00...@my-dejanews.com
**** From Sun newspaper.
Tears, candy, laughter in memory of Penny
By RUSSELL WALKER
Staff Writer
March 25, 1999
SHAKER HEIGHTS -- Sophomore Sara Williams remembers a Penny Chang
who would smile at her as they passed through the halls of Shaker Heights
High School.
"She would say hi to me and she would remember my name," Williams said. "I
just always thought that was real sweet of her."
India Browne, 12, a student at Shaker Middle School remembered a Penny
Chang who liked to cook and was always ready to help.
"I thought she was a nice person because she would come over to our house
and cook some food from where she used to live, like Chinese and Asian food.
" Browne said. "She also used to help a lot of kids with their math."
In fact, everyone who ever met Penny Chang remembered something about her
that brought a smile.
Now they are shedding tears over her untimely death.
Penny, 15, was fatally shot the morning of March 16 on the corner of Lee
Road and Van Aken Boulevard. She was walking to school with friends.
Police have arrested and charged a family friend, Scott Strothers, 21, of
Shaker, with aggravated murder in connection with her death.
Those who knew her well were joined by those who didn't during a weekend of
memorial services and vigils.
Sidewalk memorials mark the spot where Penny
Chang was shot. Sun photo by Joseph W. Darwal.
The first memorial service was a candlelight
vigil held Friday evening on the corner where
she was killed. It has become a shrine of
flowers, stuffed animals, and goodbyes and
prayers scribbled in chalk.
About 50 people, mostly junior high and high
school students, participated in the event,
which was sponsored by VOICES: Victims of
Tragedy, Black on Black 2000 and Peace in
the Hood, several Cleveland-based
community groups who speak out against violence and advocate peaceful
conflict resolution.
"We're here to honor a fallen Angel, " said Khalid Samad, founder of Peace
in the Hood. "The young lady who died here cannot speak for herself, so we
are speaking for her."
Among the mourners was Penny's best friend, Robbie Taylor, 13, who spoke
about Penny's alleged killer. She said that while Penny was almost always
happy, the only time she grew serious was when she was talking about
Strothers and how frightened she was of him.
"I met the guy and I got this very bad feeling about him," Taylor said
"Before all this happened, she said he was a nice guy, but as it
progressed, she started talking about how she wanted him to stay away from
her and how she was scared of him."
A memorial service was held Sunday afternoon at Shaker Heights Middle
School, where more than 1,000 people came to pay their last respects.
Among the mourners at the service were Shaker Heights Mayor Patricia
Mearns, Dr. Mary Ellen Waithe, a colleague of Penny's father Ching. L.
Chang, a math professor at Cleveland State University, teachers who knew
Penny throughout her academic career and close friends and family.
The family requested that there be no media coverage.
Most of the hour-long service was filled with happy memories of Penny, who
enjoyed computers, hanging out at the library and being with friends,
attendees
said.
Dr. Robert Schneider, choir director at Shaker Heights High School,
provided music at the event.
But tarnishing those happy memories were words of warning by school
administrators that anyone could become a victim, especially with the growing
availability of handguns and the prevalence of violence in society.
"There are people out there, even in this peaceful community of ours, who
would do harm," said Shaker Heights Superintendent Mark Freeman.
"When do we stop killing our children? When do we stop tolerating a culture
of guns and violence?" asked Rev. Marvin McMickle, President of the Shaker
Heights Board of Education."There will be other people killed in the streets
until you and I, who know there is a better way, stand up and say, 'No.' "
Another warning came from Penny's sister, JoAnn Chang, on the importance of
communication between parents and children.
The plea was in reference to the fact that although she was having problems
with Strothers, she never really shared her fears with family members.
"Children, please talk to your parents, or at least your brother or
sister," Chang said. "You need to trust them. They love you, OK?"
According to Penny's parents -- her father Ching and mother Yun Hua --
Penny was cremated according to Chinese tradition. Her parents will keep her
ashes until one of them dies. Then they will be buried with her. Penny is
also survived by brothers Warren, 12, a seventh- grader at Shaker Heights
Middle School, and Sean Chang, a 1992 graduate of Shaker Heights High
School. Following a Chinese custom, the family placed bowls of candy out for
mourners so they could have something sweet with their sorrow.
Her heart, lungs and eyes were donated to medical science so that even in
death she could help people
"Our daughter is dead, but other people live because of her," said Ching.
Š 1999 Sun Newspapers
Go to Sun Newspapers home page
w00...@my-dejanews.com
Penny Chang case. The Asian-American community in Cleveland is small, but
determined and does good works. The Namkoongs are very active in the
community; Rose Wong is a skilled immigration lawyer; C.L.Chang is Penny's
dad (Penny's brother Sean has posted here); and many others are supporting
the Changs. If you wish to express support you may wish to get in touch w/
wu...@wushuboy.com. Myself, I'll do what I can. Thanks.
Penny Chang's Task Force
Forum: watercooler
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 19:49:56 GMT
From: Johnny <wu...@wushuboy.com>
Declaration of community support for Chang’s family on the prosecution of
Penny’s murderer to the full extent of Ohio’s
laws.
A group of Chinese & Asian American Leaders met on 03/26/99 forming a group
called: “Task Force for Penny Chang’s
Murder Case”
This group solemnly declares the following:
1. We will form a circle of friends for Chang’s Family to provide support
whenever it is needed.
2. We will monitor the case and to ensure that the murderer will be punished
by the American Laws to their full extent.
3. We will form a coalition group by all people for justice. We also want to
prove that our laws really work.
4. We will protect and ensure our rights as a group.
5. We will raise funds for any expenses that arise from this case.
6. We will lobby support from other ethnicities, locally and nationally.
7. We will help strategize with the Chang family on their needs and turning a
tragedy to a better situation so Penny did not
die in vain.
We urge our peace-loving fellow-American to join us in this very important
task.
Task Force for Penny Chang’s
Murder Case
Members: Ray C. S. Chan (coordinator 440-238-9699), Howard Hope, Amy Hope,
C. Peng Chan, Virginia Chen, David Namkoong, Fran Namkoong, Gary Yano,
Johnny Wu, Yachun Ku, Nancy Yuen, Yan Xu, Stephen Lee, Xiaoyan Li, C. L.
Chang, Betty Lau, Xiangli Jia, Benson Lee, Lily Ng, Barbara Hing, Ray Hing,
Shan Chan, George Lieu, Yong Zhuan, Margaret Wong, James Chin, Wen Ko, Ray
Chen, and Chuck Chin.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
I hadn't noticed your reply earlier, Mr. Chang.
I'm sorry we had to "meet" this way. And I'm
sorry about what's happening.
Eric Takabayashi
Fukuyama, Japan
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> (isn't arson a
> felony punishable by prison time in many, if not most, places?)?
Arson is certainly a felony in Japan. There are at
least two kinds. Setting fire to an *inhabited*
structure is a capital offense. There are a number
of serial arsonists, especially around the Tokyo
area, but I don't hear about people being caught, to
see if the law has any teeth.
Eric Takabayashi
Fukuyama, Japan
Susan Cohen
kkramer wrote:
> Women don't realize, until a little maturity, that there is no protection
> for them. Men target women. They marry for a second income, not to protect
> and provide.
Uh, only *some* men - please!
Susan
Susan Cohen
kkramer wrote:
> I refer you to God himself.
That's funny, as G-d Himself tells *me*
that there is *no* hell.
Susan
siru viita
EVEN MORE STUPID, IF POSSIBLE, GET BACK TO VIETNAM OR WHATEVER. IM NOT
SAYING, YOU WERENT HUMAN, I KNOW YOU ARE. YOU KNOW, YOU JUST NEED TO USE THE
PLASTIC SURGEON TO LOOK LIKE ONES.
----------
In article <7drsjj$iqq$1...@news.cis.ohio-state.edu>, "Sean Chang"