What's the fate of Judas?
ZULH
Christ*, accepted the pay, but then he hanged himself.
Now what's the fate for himself (Judas)?
(That part is floating around in my mind).
Can anybody share it?
ZULH
note *, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him.
Caiaphas
"ZULH" <zu...@pc.jaring.my> wrote in message
news:ba08vf$qqe$1...@news4.jaring.my...
> From book of Matthew, one of the 12 disciples - Judas - who betrayed Jesus
> Christ*, accepted the pay, but then he hanged himself.
>
> Now what's the fate for himself (Judas)?
> (That part is floating around in my mind).
>
>
> Can anybody share it?
>
How about this -- Judas was a devoted disciple most of his life and he
committed a big sin by betraying Jesus. But, Jesus predicted that Judas
would betray him and thus it was predestined that Judas would do that
betrayal. It appears Judas repented at the end and out of sorrow hanged
himself. Surely Judas accepted Christ as his Savior, being a Disciple, and
lived under grace. I would think that Judas would be welcomed in Heaven,
but Jesus will review his life and decide.
Bone Toad
Judas (the priest) was the one being cruxified and not Jesus!
When Jesus hunted by the Nasranis, and there was Judas (the priest), who
have a close
resemblance with Jesus, was caught and later cruxified. While Jesus was
"carried" to the sky.
Jesus will one day (before end of time) come down to earth to save mankind
from evil.
So therefore, the man found on every cross (cruxified) is Judas (the priest)
and not Jesus!
"ZULH" <zu...@pc.jaring.my> wrote in message
news:ba08vf$qqe$1...@news4.jaring.my...
JanD601
based on Scripture, but the truth of the matter is it's between Judas and
God. Just as your faith is between you and God.
blackgold
"Caiaphas" <Caiap...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SRNwa.26$mI4....@eagle.america.net...
blackgold
"Bone Toad" <bone...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ba095h$hr7$1...@reader01.singnet.com.sg...
Yohan the Lost
>
Where does it say that?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"blackgold" <blac...@yippee.com> wrote in message
news:ba0gs1$3e8$1...@mawar.singnet.com.sg...
Chris
"Yohan the Lost" <yo...@poee.org> wrote in message
news:DMQwa.980$qf2.4...@dca1-nnrp1.news.algx.net...
> > Judas also stole from the common money bag for his own use.
> >
>
> Where does it say that?
>
> --
> Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
> Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
> The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
(John 12:4-6 NIV) But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later
to betray him, objected, {5} "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money
given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." {6} He did not say this
because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the
money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
Caiaphas
"JanD601" <Jan...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:QcOwa.9968$_e6....@news2.east.cox.net...
Yes, and would we want Jesus to judge us by the same measure that we judge
Judas?
BTW, isn't it that Jesus will Judge mankind in Christianity? I know its
that way in Islam.
Paul Hume
> to betray him, objected, {5} "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money
> given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." {6} He did not say this
> because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the
> money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
I beg your pardon, but that last sentence isn't from John is it? Some
alleged exegete decided Judas had to be a thief, because of his
betrayal of Christ later on, but his citation is opinion, not
scripture.
The apostle who loved Christ enough to become one of history's most
reviled figures, to do his job, so that the prophecies might be
fulfilled, deserves better, no? Though it is the paradox of Judas'
sacrifice that he gets maligned like this instead.
So again, where is the scriptural citation (not some asshole
theologian's opinion) that Judas stole from the common purse?
Paul
virgin
one of the descendent is Tariq Aziz
"Caiaphas" <Caiap...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SRNwa.26$mI4....@eagle.america.net...
>
Amplifier
> When Jesus hunted by the Nasranis, and there was Judas (the priest), who
> have a close
> resemblance with Jesus, was caught and later cruxified. While Jesus was
> "carried" to the sky.
> Jesus will one day (before end of time) come down to earth to save mankind
> from evil.
> So therefore, the man found on every cross (cruxified) is Judas (the priest)
> and not Jesus!
& you people say that Singaporeans can't think out of the BOX! Bone
Toad should write stories for MEDIACORP!
Either that or seek some professional help.....Where the FUCK did this
come out from??
Hey Bone which CULT told you this story?
a
> Judas?
>
> BTW, isn't it that Jesus will Judge mankind in Christianity? I know its
> that way in Islam.
As I know it, Jesus is the Son of God. It is not for him to judge
mankind, but for God "him"self. "Judge not ye that ye be judged ..."
would equally apply Jesus I suppose.
Caiaphas
"a" <b@c.d> wrote in message news:3EC4E4FA.2000503@c.d...
I did more research in this area. There is so much to learn and assimilate
about Christianity, that sometimes in my senior age I get confused. Here is
Scripture ...
John 5:22-23 22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given
all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they
honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father
who sent Him. All judgment is the Son's showing the equality of the Son
with the Father.
More at this website:
http://www.apologeticsforchristians.homestead.com/CDTJesusisourJudge.html
Getting back onto the topic, Christianity like Islam believes that Jesus
will judge mankind, Jews probably believe only God judges.
Regarding Judas, I suppose Jesus will evaluate Judas' life. I think,
without judging, that Judas, being a disciple, will fare well because I
think he *believed* Jesus was the Son of God.
ZULH
> BTW, isn't it that Jesus will Judge mankind in Christianity? I know its
> that way in Islam.
Actually, no.
Only Allah 'zza wa jalla is the Owner (al-Malik) of the Day of Judgement,
that's from al-Qur'an in the very first chapter.
ALso from Islam point of view, Jesus is just a prophet and a human. The
Qur'an says clearly that the resemblance of Jesus is of Adam. Jesus without
human father; and Adam without both human father and mother.
ZULH
ZULH
> How about this -- Judas was a devoted disciple most of his life and he
> committed a big sin by betraying Jesus.
That was the biggest point -and- the ultimate ending of his companionship
with Jesus.
> But, Jesus predicted that Judas
> would betray him and thus it was predestined that Judas would do that
> betrayal.
emm... the verses do not say so, that is, Jesus did not publicized it
directly. In other words, there was still a chance for Judas to correct
himself and to cancel his plot.
Just imagine, because of his betrayal, the life of Jesus was
jeopardized --and he did!
> It appears Judas repented at the end and out of sorrow hanged
> himself.
No indication from verses that he repented. He accepted the pay, he threw it
back and ran away and hanged himself. And his was finished. (But, Peter did
weep bitterly).
> Surely Judas accepted Christ as his Savior, being a Disciple, and
> lived under grace. I would think that Judas would be welcomed in Heaven,
> but Jesus will review his life and decide.
That's a good wish :-)))
But, the whole ending is quite complicated!
Say, would any ruler or govt 'naturally' ever accept a betrayer?
Sun Tzu says it clearly "Kill betrayer!"
For sure, it is not the instantaneous disaster that a betrayer will cause,
but the whole consequences -- people, nation, etc.
But, of course, this involves 'prophecy', so it might be different case :)
ZULH
Paul Hume
> to betray him, objected, {5} "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money
> given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." {6} He did not say this
> because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the
> money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
Chris -
I stand corrected (thanks for your note). ie. the description of Judas
as a thief is from John 12:6.
One still can challenge the allegation of the other "beloved disciple"
- and indeed, the Antinomian Gnostics did just that (g).
Paul
Chris
"Paul Hume" <paul...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ac3a0edc.03051...@posting.google.com...
It looks like I sent the reply to your personal e-mail instead of posting it
here. I didn't mean to do that - sorry. Thank you for the good spirit in
which it was received :)
Chris
EAC
> who betrayed Jesus Christ*, accepted the pay,
> but then he hanged himself.
Well... That's in Matthew 27:3~10.
"
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was
condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of
silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.
And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed,
and went and hanged himself.
6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not
lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of
blood.
7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to
bury strangers in.
8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet,
saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him
that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
"
Acts 1:16~19 told this story below.
"
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled,
which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning
Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this
ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and
falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels
gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as
that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say,
The field of blood.
"
> Now what's the fate for himself (Judas)?
Well... JanD601 pretty much said it correctly, can all speculate about
his fate, but the truth of the matter is it's between Judas Iscariot
and God.
Anyway. The Judas feeling guilty of betraying Jesus is okay, but the
hanging himself part is not. Feeling guilty is okay, suicide is not.
If Judas want to pay for his crime, there's got o be another better
way.
This raised the question, how did Judas died? The Gospel of Matthew
only mentioned that he hanged himself (which could mean a lot of
things), but did he die by hanging? Or did he died through some other
ways?
I wonder, maybe when Judas was feeling suicidial and was about to hang
himself, God intervene and provide some ways for him to repay for his
mistake?
JS
Malaysia ??
JS
"Amplifier" <d_amp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dc141b2d.03051...@posting.google.com...
The Cynic
We train our soldiers to kill enemies. When they carry out their task, do we
decry them?
Amplifier
GET ALONG.....
In times like this, religous tolerence is very important to ensure
that humans in general can get along! We really have enough problems
as it is! Besides aren't you guys sick of fighting about religion?
It's been going on for EONS!
Religious wars are not exactly a healthy past time for any side!
"JS" <jo...@pc.jaring.my> wrote in message news:<ba3qcj$p98$1...@news6.jaring.my>...
Caiaphas
"The Cynic" <koso...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ba58te$t6q$1...@reader01.singnet.com.sg...
Well, Jesus said to not murder. Jesus said hate was the same as murder.
Jesus said to love our enemies.
bigplayer
We all have a free will to believe or not believe. Jesus already knows who
will accept Him and who will reject Him. This does not mean we are not free
to choose, only that he already knows what we will decide.
"The Cynic" <koso...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ba58te$t6q$1...@reader01.singnet.com.sg...
>
The Cynic
Ah words of love indeed, from Jesus
Whoever does not hate his father and mother cannot be my disciple. Whoever
does not hate his brothers and sisters cannot be my disciple. Th 55, 101
Mt 10:37 Lk 14:26 - 43 -
Do you imagine I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but
rather conflict. After this five in one house will be divided, three
against two and two against three. Father will be pitted against son and
son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her
mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against
her mother-in-law. Lk 12:51-53 Mt 10:34-36 Th 16 - 44 -
The Cynic
becomes a liar?
"bigplayer" <bigp...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:vce08qm...@corp.supernews.com...
P-K4
"bigplayer" <bigp...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:vce08qm...@corp.supernews.com...
Caiaphas
"ZULH" <zu...@pc.jaring.my> wrote in message
news:ba08vf$qqe$1...@news4.jaring.my...
> From book of Matthew, one of the 12 disciples - Judas - who betrayed Jesus
> Christ*, accepted the pay, but then he hanged himself.
>
> Now what's the fate for himself (Judas)?
> (That part is floating around in my mind).
>
>
Perhaps Judas did more good than bad. When Judgement day comes, maybe Judas
will be considered righteous because he did more good than bad and that he
repented at the end. It would appear obvious that Judas did repent at the
end in that he committed suicide over what he did against Jesus.
The Cynic
>
> "ZULH" <zu...@pc.jaring.my> wrote in message
> news:ba08vf$qqe$1...@news4.jaring.my...
> > From book of Matthew, one of the 12 disciples - Judas - who betrayed
Jesus
> > Christ*, accepted the pay, but then he hanged himself.
> >
> > Now what's the fate for himself (Judas)?
> > (That part is floating around in my mind).
> >
> >
>
>
> Perhaps Judas did more good than bad. When Judgement day comes,
And when is that?
James
>From book of Matthew, one of the 12 disciples - Judas - who betrayed Jesus
>Christ*, accepted the pay, but then he hanged himself.
>
>Now what's the fate for himself (Judas)?
>(That part is floating around in my mind).
>
>
>Can anybody share it?
>
>ZULH
>
>note *, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him.
>
>
ZULH,
Good afternoon,
The Bible gives some strong indicators on what the fate of Judas was.
Jesus certainly was not very optimistic about his future. Mt 26:24,
"True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning
him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It
would have been finer for him if that man had not been born." (NWT)
Jesus also said at Joh 17:12,
"When I was with them I used to watch over them on account of your own
name which you have given me; and I have kept them, and not one of
them is destroyed except the son of destruction, in order that the
scripture might be fulfilled. " (NWT)
Yes, it appears that Judas will be 'destroyed'.
Those strong words by Jesus seem to indicate that Judas had sinned
against the Holy Spirit, when he betrayed Jesus. And those who sin
against the Holy Spirit are never forgiven. Mt 12:32,
"For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be
forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not
be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to
come." (NWT)
So, it doesn't look too good for Judas. To do what he did after he
personally witnessed the marvelous outworkings of God's Holy Spirit
through Jesus, shows what his heart was really like. (remember, he
also used to steal money from the money box--Joh 12:6) Yes, Judas
really was " the son of destruction".
Sincerely,
James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the only authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
Yohan the Lost
> because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of
the
> money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
I find this passage to be highly questionable. If the group knew that Judas
was stealing from them, they certainly would not have allowed him to
continue to be the treasurer. If the group didn't know it, then certainly no
one else did either.
So how does John know this?
Is there any evidence what so ever that he didn't simply invent that part?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"Chris" <vze2...@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message
news:jhRwa.9732$zt....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net...
Yohan the Lost
> jeopardized --and he did!
Do you really believe that the life of Jesus was ever in jeopardy?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"ZULH" <zu...@pc.jaring.my> wrote in message
news:ba2snd$4tb$1...@news5.jaring.my...
Yohan the Lost
choice.
If Judas did not betray Jesus, then Jesus could not have been reborn as
Christ. So in effect, Judas had the ability to thwart God's plan.
Did he really have a choice? Is God so easily overcome?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"bigplayer" <bigp...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:vce08qm...@corp.supernews.com...
Dore
is evil, and so was he, for Christ didn't want the rest of the apostles
corrupted by money. He wanted to keep them pure, for they were to preach the
gospel with power after His death and resurrection. So it was no surprise to
Christ and the apostles that Judas stole from them because of their faith,
they KNEW God would provide. The apostles, like Christ were NOT concerned
with monetary things and money, like people are today, because they had
great faith and righteousness, and to bow to the concerns of money, would
have been sin.
--
Dore
"Honor, Obey, Worship and Respect the Father, for then the Son will be
pleased"
Ps 2:12
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his
wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in
him.
(KJV)
"Yohan the Lost" <yo...@poee.org> wrote in message
news:Tw9ya.630$KN3.1...@dca1-nnrp1.news.algx.net...
Dore
Yes, and would we want Jesus to judge us by the same measure that we judge
> Judas?
What do you think happens to evil doers and sinners, full of iniquity who
commit offenses and do NOT repent?
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.
(KJV)
Matt 13:41-42
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of
his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and
gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)
Matt 25:30
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be
weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)
Matt 24:51
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the
hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)
Matt 5:29-30
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee:
for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not
that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for
it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not
that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
(KJV)
2 Pet 2:4-9
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell,
and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher
of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them
with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live
ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed
his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to
reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
(KJV)
Luke 13:3
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
(KJV)
you wrote.
>
> BTW, isn't it that Jesus will Judge mankind in Christianity? I know its
> that way in Islam.
Christ judges ALL mankind according to HIS words.
John 12:48
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth
him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(KJV)
--
Dore
"Honor, Obey, Worship and Respect the Father, for then the Son will be
pleased"
Ps 2:12
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his
wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in
him.
(KJV)
"Caiaphas" <Caiap...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:QCWwa.53$mI4....@eagle.america.net...
>
> "JanD601" <Jan...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:QcOwa.9968$_e6....@news2.east.cox.net...
> >
> > "ZULH" <zu...@pc.jaring.my> wrote in message
> > news:ba08vf$qqe$1...@news4.jaring.my...
> > > From book of Matthew, one of the 12 disciples - Judas - who betrayed
> Jesus
> > > Christ*, accepted the pay, but then he hanged himself.
> > >
> > > Now what's the fate for himself (Judas)?
> > > (That part is floating around in my mind).
> > >
> > >
> > > Can anybody share it?
> > >
> > > ZULH
> > >
> > > note *, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him.
> > >
> > Well, we can all speculate about his "fate," or as I would call it
> judgment,
> > based on Scripture, but the truth of the matter is it's between Judas
and
> > God. Just as your faith is between you and God.
> >
>
> Yes, and would we want Jesus to judge us by the same measure that we judge
> Judas?
>
diablo
wrote:
>The reason Judas was chosen as an apostle was to keep the money, for money
>is evil, and so was he, for Christ didn't want the rest of the apostles
>corrupted by money. He wanted to keep them pure, for they were to preach the
>gospel with power after His death and resurrection. So it was no surprise to
>Christ and the apostles that Judas stole from them because of their faith,
>they KNEW God would provide. The apostles, like Christ were NOT concerned
>with monetary things and money, like people are today, because they had
>great faith and righteousness, and to bow to the concerns of money, would
>have been sin.
Go back and read your Bible. Quote me the specific passage that
says,"Money is evil."
Money is definitely NOT evil. Who told you that?
ZULH
news:igVya.721$9C5...@news02.roc.ny.frontiernet.net...
> Matt 7:21-23
> 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
> kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
> heaven.
That is, Jesus pbuh "worked" for the Father in the heaven!
> 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
> thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
> wonderful works?
> 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
> that work iniquity.
> (KJV)
Another prophecy..... to be fulfilled in the Day of Judgement.
1. Evidently, Jesus was sent to "the lost sheep of the house of israel"
ONLY.
2. Cast out devil in the name of the Father, that is, same as Allaah
subhaanahu wa ta'aala,,,,, and not in the name of the son.
:-)
ZULH
Amplifier
read the Bible! Sometimes I wonder if you people memorise scripture or
read the bible? You seem to quote a lot of things out of context!
James <ri...@surfbest.net> wrote in message news:<nsdfcv4q7f97kggkr...@4ax.com>...
It is the only authorized source for misleading Bible teachings! They
are nothing more than a cult!
> http://www.watchtower.org
> ***********************************
diablo
wrote:
>JW's? You people are so brilliant @ quoting scripture but hardly even
>read the Bible! Sometimes I wonder if you people memorise scripture or
>read the bible? You seem to quote a lot of things out of context!
I have to agree.
Take a look at some of Dore's postings.
About saying that money is evil and all that crap about Judas and
money but conveniently forgetting that Jesus himself mingled freely
with tax collectors at that time.
I think they are suffering from a common disease afflicting some
Christians which is commonly called, "Quoting for the sake of
quoting".
Yohan the Lost
> is evil, and so was he, for Christ didn't want the rest of the apostles
> corrupted by money.
Where does it say that money is evil? Everything I have read suggests that
the source of money may make it 'unclean', but money itself has no
alignment.
> The apostles, like Christ were NOT concerned
> with monetary things and money, like people are today, because they had
> great faith and righteousness, and to bow to the concerns of money, would
> have been sin.
You give the apostles way too much credit. Time and time again they are
shown expressing earthly concerns and a lack of both understanding and
faith.
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"Dore" <spiri...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:7aVya.718$wX4...@news02.roc.ny.frontiernet.net...
Yohan the Lost
> commit offenses and do NOT repent?
Is repentance actually required? Or is faith that Jesus will redeem us
enough?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"Dore" <spiri...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:igVya.721$9C5...@news02.roc.ny.frontiernet.net...
Yohan the Lost
> Christians which is commonly called, "Quoting for the sake of
> quoting".
This disease is quite popular in all religions I have studied. Despite
warnings from the founders (Christianity, Paul, ten commandments = cult of
death) (Buddhism, Buddha, rewrite any unimportant rule) (Confucianism,
Confucius, Li / laws and customs as crutch), eventually the disease
surfaces.
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"diablo" <dia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kdtqcvc9c1jdqsrc9...@4ax.com...
Yohan the Lost
> >enough?
>
That doesn't answer my question.
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"Darth Birdy" <notn...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:18kscv8s9et1v3hv8...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 23 May 2003 16:17:19 GMT, "Yohan the Lost" <yo...@poee.org> wrote:
>
> >> What do you think happens to evil doers and sinners, full of iniquity
who
> >> commit offenses and do NOT repent?
> >
> >Is repentance actually required? Or is faith that Jesus will redeem us
> >enough?
>
> Repentance, is an act of faith.
kaherah
is said to have died. But how did he die? Here, as with many other
incidents, the Bible gives us several confused accounts. According to
Matthew this is what happened:
When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was
seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief
priests and the elders. "I have sinned", he said, "for I have betrayed
innocent blood". "What is that to us", they replied. "That's your
responsibility!". So Judas threw the money into the temple and left.
Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the
coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into treasury,
since it is blood money". So they decided to use the money to buy the
potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. That is why it has
been called the field of blood to this day (Matt 27:3-8).
Elsewhere we are told a different story.
With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there
he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled
out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field
in their language Akeldama, that is, field of blood (Acts 1:18-19).
Was it Judas who bought the field or was it the chief priests? Did
Judas hang himself or did he fall down and have his body burst open?
kaherah
wrote:
>On Fri, 23 May 2003 16:17:17 GMT, "Yohan the Lost" <yo...@poee.org> wrote:
>
>>> The reason Judas was chosen as an apostle was to keep the money, for money
>>> is evil, and so was he, for Christ didn't want the rest of the apostles
>>> corrupted by money.
>>
>>Where does it say that money is evil? Everything I have read suggests that
>>the source of money may make it 'unclean', but money itself has no
>>alignment.
>
>It is the obsession with money that is evil. :-)
Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the
Kingdom of Heaven. Again, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom
of God (Matt 19:23-24).
don't you deviate from Bible's teachings.
I tell you again and again and again, it is easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom
of God.
DON'T EVER TRY TO INTERPRET THE WORDS IN ANY OTHER WAY.
Tan Kok Beng
> Now what's the fate for himself (Judas)?
> (That part is floating around in my mind).
--
Posted via http://web2news.com the faster web2news on the web
michael
>
[deleted]
>
>Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the
>Kingdom of Heaven. Again, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go
>through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom
>of God (Matt 19:23-24).
>
>don't you deviate from Bible's teachings.
>
>I tell you again and again and again, it is easier for a camel to go
>through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom
>of God.
>
>DON'T EVER TRY TO INTERPRET THE WORDS IN ANY OTHER WAY.
Err .. I suggest you give the whole passage a read, and not
just stop at the verse above.
If we only pick verses and not read the whole passage for
the message, we may miss the teaching contained therein
and will possibly end up with an entirely wrong interpretation. :)
regards,
michael ... afn2...@afn.org
e-Entrepreneur
contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another.
In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his
body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch of
the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his
bowels spilled out.
Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by
hanging. Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels
gushed out. Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where
Matthew does.
-------------------------------------------------
Club2020 e-Entrepreneur
Web: www.mlm-biz.com
Club2020 - The Solution for
Declining Sales and Fund-Raising.
-------------------------------------------------
"kaherah" <k...@h.com> wrote in message
news:3ecec25e...@news.starhub.net.sg...
kaherah
<kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote:
>There is no contradiction here at all because both are true. A
>contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another.
>In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his
>body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch of
>the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his
>bowels spilled out.
>Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by
>hanging. Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels
>gushed out. Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where
>Matthew does.
That's a lot being left out in Matt and a lot being left out in Acts.
Why is there so much omission?
Again who bought the field? Judas or the Chief Priest?
Conslusion is that we cannot depend on the account of those people who
testimony is questionable.
Another thing that should make us wary of trusting the testimony of
Jesus' disciples is that they seemed to be constantly misunderstanding
what Jesus was saying (Mk 4:13, 6:52, 8:15-17, 9:32; Lk 8:9, 9:45).
They are supposed to have seen Jesus perform the most amazing miracles
and yet despite this they still doubted. Jesus scolded them and called
them "men of little faith" (Matt 8:26, 17:20). Should we trust the
writings of men who constantly failed to understand what was being
said to them and whom even Jesus called men of little faith? If even
the people who knew and saw Jesus had '"little faith" how could we,
who have never seen him, be expected to have faith in him?
clone28
"kaherah" <k...@h.com> wrote in message
news:3ecec25e...@news.starhub.net.sg...
The Cynic
truth" But it got distorted to the present form during translations from
Aramaic to Hebrew to Greek to English.
"clone28" <clo...@singnet.com.sg> wrote in message
news:bao0rf$mel$1...@mawar.singnet.com.sg...
e-Entrepreneur
> On Sat, 24 May 2003 10:03:55 +0800, "e-Entrepreneur"
> <kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote:
>
> >There is no contradiction here at all because both are true. A
> >contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of
another.
> >In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then
his
> >body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch
of
> >the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his
> >bowels spilled out.
> >Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by
> >hanging. Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his
bowels
> >gushed out. Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death
where
> >Matthew does.
> That's a lot being left out in Matt and a lot being left out in Acts.
> Why is there so much omission?
> Again who bought the field? Judas or the Chief Priest?
Matthew 27 verse 7 stated that the priests used Judas' money to buy the
potter's field. Judas' blood money was used to buy the field (the "Field of
Blood"). Thus it was Judas' field, not the priest's. The money did not
belong to the priests by law, they had not "earned" it-Judas had.
In toher word, Judas in Acts 1:18 didn't mean he had made a contract and
paid for the land. Instead, it meant that he supplied the means
>
> Conslusion is that we cannot depend on the account of those people who
> testimony is questionable.
>
> Another thing that should make us wary of trusting the testimony of
> Jesus' disciples is that they seemed to be constantly misunderstanding
> what Jesus was saying (Mk 4:13, 6:52, 8:15-17, 9:32; Lk 8:9, 9:45).
> They are supposed to have seen Jesus perform the most amazing miracles
> and yet despite this they still doubted. Jesus scolded them and called
> them "men of little faith" (Matt 8:26, 17:20). Should we trust the
> writings of men who constantly failed to understand what was being
> said to them and whom even Jesus called men of little faith? If even
> the people who knew and saw Jesus had '"little faith" how could we,
> who have never seen him, be expected to have faith in him?
>
Conclusion - the Bilble is the infallible word of an Almighty God.
kaherah
wrote:
>On Sat, 24 May 2003 01:41:30 GMT, k...@h.com (kaherah) wrote:
>
>>Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the
>>Kingdom of Heaven. Again, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go
>>through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom
>>of God (Matt 19:23-24).
>>
>>
>>don't you deviate from Bible's teachings.
>>
>>I tell you again and again and again, it is easier for a camel to go
>>through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom
>>of God.
>>
>>DON'T EVER TRY TO INTERPRET THE WORDS IN ANY OTHER WAY.
>
>Because you couldn't interpret it any other way? LOL
neither cud u. LOL LOL LOL
kaherah
<kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote:
>"kaherah" <k...@h.com> wrote in message
>news:3ecf0a36...@news.starhub.net.sg...
>> On Sat, 24 May 2003 10:03:55 +0800, "e-Entrepreneur"
>> <kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote:
>
>Matthew 27 verse 7 stated that the priests used Judas' money to buy the
>potter's field. Judas' blood money was used to buy the field (the "Field of
>Blood"). Thus it was Judas' field, not the priest's. The money did not
>belong to the priests by law, they had not "earned" it-Judas had.
>In toher word, Judas in Acts 1:18 didn't mean he had made a contract and
>paid for the land. Instead, it meant that he supplied the means
>
>>
>
>Conclusion - the Bilble is the infallible word of an Almighty God.
>
you have to do better to be more convincing.
that's not the only instance of unreliable accounts.
The Resurrection
Did Jesus really die and then rise from the dead after three days? The
Four Gospels' accounts of this most crucial event are such a confused
and contradictory mess that convincing any unbiased person to doubt it
would be easy. At this point the reader is advised to have a Bible
ready and to check the references. We will see that the four accounts
of the supposed Resurrection differ in nearly every detail.
Who went to the tomb?
Now the problems begin. Matthew says that the two Marys went to the
tomb (Matt 28:1); Mark says that the two Marys and Salome went (Mk
16:1); Luke says that the two Marys, Joanna and some other women went
(Lk 24:10); and John says that Mary went alone (Jn 20:1).Christians
claim that the Bible contains no mistakes but surely there are a few
mistakes here. They claim that those who wrote the Gospels were
inspired by God as they wrote, but apparently not inspired enough to
be able to count properly.
Was there an earthquake?
Matthew tells us that at that time there was a "great earthquake"
(Matt 28:2), but why do the other three Gospels fail to mention it?
Surely a great earthquake, especially occurring at such a significant
moment, would be hard to forget. It is far more likely that Matthew
just made up the story to add drama to his account, in other words he
lied.
penitent leper
>The Resurrection
>
>Did Jesus really die and then rise from the dead after three days? The
>Four Gospels' accounts of this most crucial event are such a confused
>and contradictory mess
The 'mess' is only in your mind. The profusion of resurrection
accounts is a result of a historically and textually traceable
evolution that makes perfect sense.
>that convincing any unbiased person to doubt it
>would be easy.
But you're not unbiased, so what's your point?
>At this point the reader is advised to have a Bible
>ready and to check the references. We will see that the four accounts
>of the supposed Resurrection differ in nearly every detail.
So? Why does this bother you? Perhaps you're unfamiliar with
textual and form criticism to the extent that you're not aware that
the resurrection narratives contain several kinds of writing genres,
not all of them historical.
>Who went to the tomb?
>
>Now the problems begin. Matthew says that the two Marys went to the
>tomb (Matt 28:1); Mark says that the two Marys and Salome went (Mk
>16:1); Luke says that the two Marys, Joanna and some other women went
>(Lk 24:10); and John says that Mary went alone (Jn 20:1).
So? The variance in reports may tend to lend credibility to the
accounts because it looks like typical reports of recalled events, not
like 'myths/lies in the making'.
Moreover, the empty tomb narratives are late accretions to the
*appearance* tradition. The appearance narratives are earlier than
the empty tomb narratives. Original GospMark ended with discovery of
the empty tomb, but the original Marcan ending did not connect it to
the resurrection. Paul's resurrection testimony does not cite the
empty tomb as a catalyst for resurrection faith.
>Christians
>claim that the Bible contains no mistakes
Wrong. Fundamentalist Christians claim the Bible is literally
inerrant. Educated Christians make no such claims.
>But surely there are a few
>mistakes here.
'Mistakes' on a literal level may not be such on a
mythical/metaphorical level. In fact, they may be altogether
irrelevant. Be careful - you're thinking like a fundamentalist.
> They claim that those who wrote the Gospels were
>inspired by God as they wrote, but apparently not inspired enough to
>be able to count properly.
Wrong again. 'Inspiration' does not mean 'literal inerrancy' except
to fundamentalists.
>Was there an earthquake?
>
>Matthew tells us that at that time there was a "great earthquake"
>(Matt 28:2), but why do the other three Gospels fail to mention it?
Perhaps Matthew's sources mentioned it whereas the other three
Gospel writers' sources didn't mention it?
>Surely a great earthquake, especially occurring at such a significant
>moment, would be hard to forget.
Depends on who/where the sources were.
>It is far more likely that Matthew
>just made up the story to add drama to his account, in other words he
>lied.
'It is far more likely that Matthew lied'? Quantify. First,
establish why it is a 'likelihood', especially since you seem to know
nothing about the question of Matthew's use of sources. Then
establish it as a 'lie' - remembering that what post-Enlightenment
historical science would regard as a 'lie' was never so regarded by
ancient writers.
- pl -
e-Entrepreneur
A. The 66 books of the Bible were written:
On three continents.
In three languages
By 40 different people (kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, an army
general, fishermen, priests and a physician)
Over a period of about 1,500 years.
On the most controversial subjects.
By people who, in most cases, had never met.
By authors whose education and background varied greatly.
B. Yet, though it seem totally inconceivable,
The 66 books maintain harmony with each other
Often new concepts on a subjects are expressed, but these concepts do not
undermine what other Bible writers say on the same subject.
C. Ask people who have viewed an identical event to each give a report
of what happened. They will differ widely and will virtually always
contradict each other in some way. Yet the Bible, penned by 40 writers over
a 1,500 year period, reads as it written by one great mind. And, indeed, it
was: "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter
1: 21. The Holy Ghost "moved" them all. He is the real Bible author. The
four Gospels do sometimes differ in the way they report the same event, but
they complement each other.
"kaherah" <k...@h.com> wrote in message
news:3ed027e2...@news.starhub.net.sg...
The fact that Matthew named Mary Magdalene and the other Mary as the
visitors to the tomb, whereas Mark named these two and a third woman, i. e.,
Salome, and so on need not be a mistake, because the omission of names in a
narrative would not constitute error.
>
> Was there an earthquake?
>
> Matthew tells us that at that time there was a "great earthquake"
> (Matt 28:2), but why do the other three Gospels fail to mention it?
> Surely a great earthquake, especially occurring at such a significant
> moment, would be hard to forget. It is far more likely that Matthew
> just made up the story to add drama to his account, in other words he
> lied.
>
Not necessarily. The failure to mention does not meant that the earthquake
didn't happened..
>
kaherah
<kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote:
>Please ponder the following amazing facts:
>A. The 66 books of the Bible were written:
>On three continents.
>In three languages
>By 40 different people (kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, an army
>general, fishermen, priests and a physician)
>Over a period of about 1,500 years.
>On the most controversial subjects.
>By people who, in most cases, had never met.
>By authors whose education and background varied greatly.
>
>B. Yet, though it seem totally inconceivable,
>The 66 books maintain harmony with each other
harmony?
Old Testament
But you, Bethlehem Ephasthah, though you are small among the clans of
Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from old (Mic 5:2).
New Testament
But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah are by no means the least
among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will
be the shepherd of my people Israel (Matt 2:6).
The quote in the New Testament contains not just different words, it
also changes the meaning of the original. Has Matthew misquoted the
Old Testament because he was not familiar with it and made a mistake?
Has he deliberately misquoted in order to alter the meaning? Or is the
Old Testament Matthew used different from the one we have today? The
New Testament quotes the Old Testament dozens of times and hardly a
single quote is accurate. Christians will protest and say that these
changes are only minor and of no importance. Perhaps so, but these are
proofs that the Bible does contain mistakes, contrary to what
Christians say. Also, it is strange that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and
Paul, who according to Christians were inspired by God to write the
New Testament, could not even quote the Old Testament correctly
>Often new concepts on a subjects are expressed, but these concepts do not
>undermine what other Bible writers say on the same subject.
When we look at the Bibles used by modern Christians we find that
there are several different versions. The Bible used by the Ethiopian
Church, one of the most ancient of all churches, contains the Books of
Enoch and the Shepherd of Hermas which are not found in the versions
used by Catholics and Protestants. The Bible used in the Catholic
Church contains the books of Judith, Tobias, Banuch, etc which have
been cut out of the Bible used in Protestant churches. Prof. H.L.
Drummingwright of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in his
introduction to the Bible explains how these books came to be cut out
of the Bible used by the Protestants. These books were, he says, "in
most Protestant Bibles until the 19th century, when publishers, led by
the British and Foreign Bible Society voluntarily began to omit them".
Once again, these books contained ideas which the churches did not
like so they just cut them out. How can a book like Judith be the
infallible word of God one moment and not the next? Why are there so
many different versions of the Bible? And which version is the
infallible word of God?
>
e-Entrepreneur
There were two Bethlehem's, one in north, and one in Judah; Bethlehem
Ephrathah was the Bethlehem in Judah. As Walt Kaiser says in Hard Sayings of
the Bible p.335-336, "Ephrathah is the older name for Bethlehem. It comes
from the word 'to be fruitful', and that name is most appropriate for the
birthplace of the one who would bring salvation to the earth."
Thus, there is no contradiction.
>
>
> >Often new concepts on a subjects are expressed, but these concepts do not
> >undermine what other Bible writers say on the same subject.
>
> When we look at the Bibles used by modern Christians we find that
> there are several different versions. The Bible used by the Ethiopian
> Church, one of the most ancient of all churches, contains the Books of
> Enoch and the Shepherd of Hermas which are not found in the versions
> used by Catholics and Protestants. The Bible used in the Catholic
> Church contains the books of Judith, Tobias, Banuch, etc which have
> been cut out of the Bible used in Protestant churches. Prof. H.L.
> Drummingwright of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in his
> introduction to the Bible explains how these books came to be cut out
> of the Bible used by the Protestants. These books were, he says, "in
> most Protestant Bibles until the 19th century, when publishers, led by
> the British and Foreign Bible Society voluntarily began to omit them".
> Once again, these books contained ideas which the churches did not
> like so they just cut them out. How can a book like Judith be the
> infallible word of God one moment and not the next? Why are there so
> many different versions of the Bible? And which version is the
> infallible word of God?
>
The original writers of the Bible was inspired by God - hence the original
writting is infallible.
It is not surprising that the translated versions contains error - to err is
human!
>
>
> >
ZULH
e-Entrepreneur <kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote in message
news:barp4h$9uj$1...@reader01.singnet.com.sg...
> Please ponder the following amazing facts:
> A. The 66 books of the Bible were written:
> On three continents.
> In three languages
> By 40 different people (kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, an army
> general, fishermen, priests and a physician)
> Over a period of about 1,500 years.
> On the most controversial subjects.
> By people who, in most cases, had never met.
> By authors whose education and background varied greatly.
..... And the result....
The Holy Bible "failed" to prophesy the coming of a unlettered man named
Muhammad(PBUH) whose teachings are momentuous, inevitable propagative to the
whole world and leaving to the world the Qur'an, the king of miracles over
all previous prophets(PBUT)!
Yet, the Bible pro tells that there are big numbers of prophecies including
big and smalls that have been fulfilled, from the Bible. They (those
authors) missed the coming of Muhammad(pbuh) to this world, should be a big
prophecy not to be "unseen" by them.
Amazing, is not it.
(And you'd say, Muhammad did author the Qur'an? Well... even though you
compare it with 40 authors, with different backgrounds...)
Amazing Indeed! :-)
ZULH
e-Entrepreneur
Muslims and Christians alike agree that Christ's coming was predicted often
in the Old Testament.
Yet, if God had intended to send another prophet far greater than Christ, we
should naturally find predictions concerning him there as well.
Because, none are to be found, the sole criteria for Muhammad's authority
rests entirely on the Qur'an.
>
> (And you'd say, Muhammad did author the Qur'an? Well... even though you
> compare it with 40 authors, with different backgrounds...)
Where did I memtionMuhammad authored the Qur'an...?
>
> Amazing Indeed! :-)
>
> ZULH
>
>
>
>
ZULH
> Because, none are to be found, the sole criteria for Muhammad's authority
> rests entirely on the Qur'an.
What I meant was.. Bible never predicts the coming of Muhammad(pbuh) whose
effects are for the whole worlds. The coming of Muhammad(pbuh) into this
world is not a small matter for the world history and civilizations.
Amazingly, Bible never predicts about his coming??? hmmm... worth to ponder.
But I've been told before in *.christian.* groups about hundreds
predictions/prophecies in the Bible. But it fails to predict the coming of
that big event in the world (i.e. Muhammad(pbuh))....
ZULH
Hopper
wrote:
>and we are told "the bible is the truth and nothing but the truth" amen.
>Survival of the Crucifixion: Traditions of Jesus
within Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism
James W. Deardorff
December, 1993; revised March, 1998
INTRODUCTION
HIS "LOST YEARS" IN INDIA
RESUSCITATION HYPOTHESES
ATTEMPTED DEBUNKINGS
TRADITIONS OF JESUS' TRAVELS AFTER THE CRUCIFIXION
Jesus within Islam
Jesus within Hinduism
Jesus within Buddhism
Jesus within Roman paganism
SUMMARY
ENDNOTES
INTRODUCTION
The empty tomb on Easter morning and subsequent appearances of Jesus
to his disciples and to a few others have provided some novelists, or
writer-scholars, with incentive to explore the possibility of his
survival of the crucifixion.1 This incentive has been furthered by the
lack of documented examples of resurrection other than that supposed
for Jesus first by Paul and then by the early Christian church.
Unknown to many, however, is that various independent scholars have
also postulated that Jesus survived the crucifixion for the same
reasons. Also not well known is how widespread and credible the
traditions are that point to Jesus, after surviving the crucifixion,
having traveled with a few others through Anatolia and thence eastward
to northern India and the Kashmir region. Here these topics will be
summarized and consolidated so that open-minded, questioning
Christians can better explore the roots of their faith and understand
how thoroughly Christian authorities over the centuries have ignored,
suppressed and belittled the unthinkable evidence that could overturn
their faith.
RESUSCITATION HYPOTHESES
Although the various Gospel accounts of Jesus' appearances to his
disciples following the crucifixion contain a large number of
inconsistencies and discrepancies, this is only to be expected if the
Gospel writers, especially the first one, needed to edit an original
account of Jesus having survived the crucifixion into an account in
which he had appeared in a resurrected form. The various scholars'
hypotheses will then vary due to the differing weights they may attach
to the different Gospel accounts, and due to their differing religious
backgrounds.
The Ahmadiyyas. This non-orthodox branch of Islam was founded in the
19th century by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, Pakistan. His
century-old book, available on line, provides the basics of their
evidence and understanding that Jesus survived the crucifixion. By
now, their followers, several hundred thousand strong, are centered in
London, Berlin and Los Angeles as well as in Pakistan. M. G. Ahmad
carefully researched the traditions that support Jesus' trek across
Asia; this prompted him and some scholarly followers to postulate how
Jesus survived the crucifixion. Briefly, they posit that Jesus lapsed
into a deep swoon while on the cross, that the spear thrust missed his
heart, that he received medical attention while in the tomb, and that
his exit from the tomb was aided by Essenes.2 These are all plausible
suppositions, except, it turns out, that Essenes were in on it.
Underlying this and other survival hypotheses to be discussed is the
knowledge that death on the cross was designed to be long in coming --
up to several days, while Jesus is said to have been taken down from
the cross, with legs unbroken, relatively early on the same day.
Further, it is often pointed out that Josephus has written of an
instance in which he recognized three Jewish prisoners who had
undergone crucifixion but had not yet died. He obtained permission
from Titus to take them down from their crosses and administer aid;
one of them survived.3 The Ahmadiyya literature also points out that
the "sign of Jonah" prophecy made by Jesus is better fulfilled if he
had survived the entombment of three days and nights, since Jonah
survived his experience within the interior of the "big fish."
The Ahmadiyyas' supposition that Essenes were involved in Jesus'
recovery stems from their assumption that the "angels in white" in Jn
20:12 or the men (or man) in white in Lk 24:4 (or Mt 28:3, Mk 16:5 or
Jn 20:12) were Essenes due to the belief that Essenes wore white
garments. Of course, this is not consistent with the reactions of the
reported witnesses to having seen non-human entities clad in
dazzlingly white apparel.
Karl Bahrdt, ca. 1780. This scholar postulated, in brief, that Jesus
survived a feigned death, with Luke the physician having supplied
drugs to Jesus beforehand. Jesus was supposed to have been an Essene,
and so also Joseph of Arimathea, who resuscitated him. On the third
day, when Jesus came forth, his appearance scared the guards away and
he later lived in seclusion with the Essenes.4 Here there is much to
criticize -- all, in fact, but the likelihood that Joseph of Arimathea
was involved in Jesus' recovery. 5
Karl Venturini, ca. 1800. Venturini proposed that Jesus had been
associated with a secret society, which wished him to become a
spiritual Messiah. Though they had not expected him to survive the
crucifixion, one of them, dressed in white, heard some groans from
inside the tomb. He frightened away the guards and retrieved Jesus,
who used up his remaining energy in appearing to his disciples and
afterwards retired permanently from sight. This appears even more
far-fetched than Bahrdt's version.
Heinrich Paulus, 1828. A more detailed version was postulated by
Paulus. Preceding the earthquake of Mt 27:51, dense fumes were
supposedly released that caused difficulty in breathing and made it
appear that Jesus had prematurely died on the cross. Somehow Jesus
survived in the tomb without any help. Similar to Venturini's
hypothesis, Paulus had Jesus use up his remaining energy in the
following days and then disappear into an orographic cloud at the end
of his final meeting with the disciples on the mountain -- the
Ascension. Again, however, there is no shortage of problems with this
scenario.6 Nevertheless, the father of modern theology, F.E.D.
Schleiermacher, endorsed a form of this hypothesis in the early
1830s.7
Ernest Brougham Docker, 1920. He proposed that on the cross, Jesus had
lapsed into a state of catalepsy or self-hypnosis, that the spear
thrust to the side may not have occurred, and that within the tomb
Jesus was aided by Joseph and Nicodemus. Later, the gardener of Jn
20:15 supplied Jesus with fresh clothing.8 Docker was a district court
judge as well as a student of the New Testament, and offered an
interesting discussion of how the bystanders at the crucifixion may
have mistakenly thought Jesus dead while Joseph discovered otherwise.
This scenario seems more realistic than the preceding ones, though
surely Joseph or Nicodemus could have supplied the clothing.
Robert Graves & Joshua Podro, 1957. These two independent scholars
pictured Jesus as having collapsed into a coma while on the cross,
with the spear thrust having failed to pierce the lungs. The outflow
of "blood and water" (Jn 19:34; Mt 27:49b, according to manuscripts
"B" and "Aleph") indicated to them that Jesus had not died, a point
also made by the Ahmadiyyas. One of the guards at the tomb is supposed
to have entered in order to steal the valuable ointment smeared on the
shroud in which Jesus had been wrapped; finding him alive, he informed
their sergeant, who let Jesus go. That evening Jesus showed himself to
the disciples, but from then on became a wanderer, living in hiding.9
I find this guard scenario much less realistic than that of secret
medical attention supplied within the tomb.
The Talmud of Jmmanuel (TJ), 1978. This is the document discovered in
1963, translated in substantial part from Aramaic into German by 1974,
and destroyed in June of that year due to its heresies for
Christianity and Judaism.10 Because of its heresies, lack of extant
originals, and association with a UFO contactee case, scholars cannot
deal with it seriously and it remains largely unknown to them. In it,
Jmmanuel (Jesus) lapses into a very deep trance, probably samadhi,11
on the cross and only Joseph of Arimathea notices he is not dead after
the spear thrust. After enshrouding him and carrying him to his tomb,
he quickly seeks out Jmmanuel's Hindu friends for help because of
their skill in medicines and herbs. They utilize a second entrance to
the tomb known only to Joseph so as not to arouse suspicions,
especially after the guards are posted. After three days (not just
two) Jmmanuel is helped out very early in the morning via the secret
entrance and continues to recover rapidly. Just how he was able to
recover so quickly is not explained, and one is left with the
possibility that his miraculous healing powers could be applied not
just to others but to a considerable extent to himself as well. During
his subsequent meetings with his disciples, he warned them not to
disclose his survival to others. This may well be history, not
hypothesis, but for those who insist that the TJ must be a literary
hoax, it is the hypothesis of an unknown hoaxer.
J.D.M. Derrett, 1982. Prof. Derrett allowed that Jesus had lapsed into
unconsciousness or a self-induced trance during the crucifixion, being
taken for dead by bystanders and by the Roman soldier who stabbed him
in the side. He chose the likelihood that his heart and lungs had not
been pierced, and assumed that Jesus subsequently self-revived within
the tomb. Basing other assumptions on the Gospel of Mark, he inferred
that no Roman guard had been set, but rather that the young man of Mk
16:5 (and possibly of Mk 14:51) was a self-appointed guard. Some noise
inside the tomb supposedly caused this guard to check inside, whence
he found Jesus in poor shape but alive. Jesus is assumed to have
muttered a few things to this guard to relay to the disciples, and
died not long afterwards from his injuries. His disciples supposedly
cremated his body because they considered him the Paschal Lamb, meant
to be sacrificed.12 A half dozen objections to this hypothesis have
been raised.13
B. Thiering. This scholar pictured Jesus as having been given snake
poison on the cross, which rendered him unconscious. He recovered from
this and was helped to escape from the tomb by friends. Ultimately he
settled in Rome.14 I have been unable to see any merit in her
arguments: she pictures the entire ministry of Jesus as presented in
the Gospels as actually having occurred in the Dead Sea area rather
than the Sea-of-Galilee area, including the fishing industry. She
regards nearly everything in the Gospels as a coded version of what
actually occurred, with the code to be deciphered by the "pesher"
method. Her use of this method makes repeated use of the Dead Sea
Scrolls in which she interprets the "Wicked Priest" as Jesus. I am
disappointed to have had to dismiss her work as summarily as have the
"mainstream" scholars.
ATTEMPTED DEBUNKINGS
The resuscitation hypotheses up until 1835 were roundly rejected by
David Friedrich Strauss, and for nearly a century this put a damper on
further such hypotheses. His criticism was largely in the form of
ridicule over the idea of a "half-dead" being creeping out from the
grave "weak and ill," yet managing to instill in his disciples "the
impression that he was a Conqueror over death and the grave."15 He
assumed Jesus had not received any medical attention while in the
tomb. However, several of the survival hypotheses do postulate such
medical assistance, and are therefore immune to Strauss's objection.
Yet, his rejection is sometimes referred to by scholars even today,
when necessary, as if it were germane. Strauss was the first scholar
to emphasize the possibility that after the crucifixion the disciples
so longed for their Lord that they invented the appearances. Thus he
simply dismissed all testimony that Jesus had risen from the grave and
physically appeared to his disciples by pointing out inconsistencies
in the various accounts, rather than exploring reasons why such
inconsistencies would be expected.
A prominent medical-theological treatment of the crucifixion concluded
that if Jesus did not die on the cross, he must surely have died from
the spear thrust. 16 However, this conclusion was based most
noticeably on pre-1980 analyses of the Shroud of Turin and the
assumption that this shroud is genuine. The Ahmadiyyas have also
utilized the Shroud of Turin to support their opposing conclusion, but
they could point to the outflow of "blood and water" from the spear
thrust as indicating that Jesus had not died, as from asphyxiation,
prior to that action. Although the authors of this attempted debunking
were Christians, and must have believed in the reality of Jesus'
miraculous cures of lepers, the lame, blind, deaf and other afflicted,
they never questioned whether his spiritual healing power might not
extend to his own body.
In summary, if the most logical components from the various
resuscitation hypotheses are synthesized in a consistent manner, it is
seen that one like the TJ's story could emerge that survives the
objections of attempted debunkers. This is especially true if Jesus'
healing powers could have applied also to himself. This may seem more
plausible to many than that the Gospels' stories of Jesus'
post-crucifixion appearances were totally made up and that
resurrection is a viable concept. Hence it is reasonable to treat
seriously the traditions indicating that in years following the
crucifixion, Jesus and a small party traveled about Anatolia and
western Asia.
Some of these Jesus-in-Asia traditions to be presented have been
pseudo-debunked by the Swedish scholar, Per Beskow.17 Careful
inspection of one topic, however, indicates that his tactic was to
ignore the most pertinent pieces of evidence, distort much of the
rest, emphasize irrelevancies, attempt to discredit persons who
provide first- or second-hand information, and otherwise treat the
evidence piece-meal rather than cumulatively.18 Beskow dismissed the
Jesus-in-Asia traditions primarily by calling them legends whose Asian
sources "do not carry any weight at all."19 This appears to be a
cultural put-down induced by theological commitment or fear that
serious investigation of the topic would be loathsome in the eyes of
Western colleagues.
TRADITIONS OF JESUS' TRAVELS AFTER THE CRUCIFIXION
Jesus within Islam. Certain Islamic historians felt no need to
suppress these traditions, since to them Jesus was only a mortal
prophet, albeit a very important one. Moreover, Islam in general
doesn't even believe that Jesus underwent the crucifixion, but that
someone substituted for him on the cross. The Persian historian Mir
Kawand names a site close to Damascus called Maqam-Isa or
Mayuam-i-isa, which means "the place where Jesus lived," according to
independent scholar Holger Kersten.20 Kersten traveled through western
Asia in 1973-74 visiting various libraries and researching these
traditions. The Talmud of Jmmanuel confirms this by indicating that
Jmmanuel (alias Jesus) went to Damascus following his final meeting
with his disciples, and lived there incognito for two years.21 This
included the time when Saul (Paul) had his conversion experience on
the road to Damascus southwest of the city.22
Three of these historians wrote of Jesus, Mary and Thomas
(Judas-Thomas, presumably) having traveled to Nisibis (Nasibain) near
Edessa, now Urfa in southeast Turkey just north of Syria, where Jesus
preached to the king. Mir Muhammad bin Khawand Shah Ibn-i-Muhammad,
also known as Mir Khawand bin Badshah, in 1417 wrote of the journey of
Jesus away from the Jerusalem area to Nisibis. In the former, Jesus
and Mary first go to Syria; in the latter, they and Thomas have some
confrontations with the king of Nisibis.23
Faqir Muhammad, around 1830, wrote, among other things, that on these
journeys Jesus and Mary traveled on foot, and that Jesus preached to
the king of Nisibis. 24 According to Holger Kersten, the story is
prefixed by this king having been ill and having requested Jesus to
come and cure him; Jesus sent Thomas on ahead, and Thomas cured the
king by the time Jesus and the rest of his party arrived. 25
Iman Abu Jaffar Muhammad bin Jarir at-Tabri in 1880 wrote of the
tradition that Jesus and party had to depart quickly from Nisibis
because of hostility that had arisen against them there. 26
In most of the Muslim writings Jesus is referred to as Yuz Asaf. The
meaning and derivation of the name is uncertain. "Yuz" is thought by
some to mean either "Jesus" or "leader," and "Asaf" to refer to those
he cured of leprosy. Thus one interpretation is that Yuz Asaf means
"leader of those he cured of leprosy."27 An alternate interpretation
will be supplied later. It is understandable that in his travels after
the crucifixion Jesus would have remained incognito, especially for
the first few years and in Anatolia, and when necessary have supplied
a name for himself other than what he had been known by in Palestine.
However, ample descriptions are supplied that leave no doubt that the
man known as Yuz Asaf is to be identified with Jesus -- his close
association with his mother Mary and with Thomas is one of these.
In Iranian traditions recounted by Agha Mustafai, it is said that Yuz
Asaf came there from the west and preached, causing many to believe in
him.28 His teachings are said to have been similar to those of Jesus.
However, if he had taught reincarnation, 29 one would not expect that
his surmised teachings on that subject would have been carried along
by Muslim writers any more than by Christian writers, since Islam also
does not embrace the concept of reincarnation.
Within northwest Afghanistan, centered in the city of Herat, an
explorer of Sufism, O. M. Burke, came across a sect of some 1000
people who are devotees of Yuz Asaf, whom they also knew as Isa, son
of Maryam.30 Their tradition includes Isa, the prophet from Israel,
having escaped the cross, traveled to India and settled in Kashmir. He
was (again) regarded as possessing the power to perform miracles. The
sect's leader at that time (1976), Abba Yahiyya (Father John), could
recite the names of the succession of their leaders and teachers back
through nearly 60 generations to Yuz Asaf himself, when he had stopped
off there along the Silk Road. Although Burke referred to this sect as
Christians, since they revere Isa as the Son of God, they cannot of
course be considered Christian in any orthodox sense.
Within the Holy Quran there are many verses discussing Jesus, and
often Mary also, but these either deal with the Nativity or his
Palestinian ministry, or contain no definite geographical and temporal
context. A possible exception, however, is Surah 23:50, a translation
of which reads:
And We made the son of Marium [Mary] and his mother a sign, and We
gave them a shelter on a lofty ground having meadows and springs.
Since Israel is not noted for having lofty ground with meadows and
springs, this verse suggests a different location, and if shelter was
needed, it indicates they were traveling.
In eastern Pakistan, next to Kashmir, there is further support for
these traditions. There one may find the tomb of Mary on a hilltop
just outside a small town called Murree or Mari. The grave is called
Mai Mari da Asthan, which means "the final resting place of Mother
Mary."31 Her tomb faces east-west, as in Jewish custom, rather than
north-south as in Islamic custom. Thus some evidence does exist to
indicate that Mary made it at least this far in their travels and had
traversed with Jesus over much beautiful high country of Afghanistan
and Pakistan, in support of the Quran verse that hints at this.
Farther east, in Kashmir near Srinagar, there is a monument in stone:
the Throne of Solomon, bearing four inscriptions, the last two of
which are most interesting though they were mutilated following the
conquest of Kashmir by the Sikhs in 1819. However, they were described
by the early Muslim historian of Kashmir, Mulla Nadiri, in 1413. An
English translation of his Persian script is:
At this time Yuz Asaf proclaimed his prophethood. Year fifty and four
[in the reign of King Gopadatta].
and
He is Jesus, prophet of the Children of Israel.32
The correct dating and significance of the year 54 is not clear. The
year has been placed within the reign of King Gopadatta at 107 C.E. by
Kersten, and at 78 C.E. by Professor Fida Hassnain, director of
archives and antiquities in Kashmir.33
Some written and oral tradition assert that after death Yuz Asaf was
entombed in the old section of Srinagar, in Anzimar in the Khanjar (or
Khaniyar) quarter.34 Tradition has it that the tomb, about which a
small building was long ago constructed, has been under constant watch
by a succession of guardians ever since Yuz Asaf's supposed burial
there. On the floor next to his grave it was noted by Hassnain that
much candle-wax had accumulated, and upon carefully scraping it away
at one corner of the tombstone, he discovered a crucifix and a rosary
that had long been embedded. In addition, he found two footprints
carved into the stone underneath the candle wax and mud with the
marking of a crucifixion scar etched into each print.35 This is
further indication that Yuz Asaf was known to have been Jesus Christ.
Each year hundreds of Muslims, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists visit
the tomb (known as Rozabal, or the "sacred tomb") to pay homage -- a
nearly unique example of a unity within world religions.
There is a report, however, that Yuz Asaf was actually buried not at
the noted tomb site in Srinagar's old town, but on a hillside not far
away. This comes from the UFO contactee Eduard Meier, the
co-discoverer and editor of the Talmud of Jmmanuel, who in turn
received the information from one of his contacting extraterrestirals.
Those who have studied this document and realize its genuineness may
wish to treat this report seriously.
Within the ruins of the Indian city of Fatehpur Sikri, located some 15
miles west of Agra, there is an interesting inscription on a wall. It
was emplaced on the portal of a mosque around 1601 by the emperor
Akbar the Great, a Muslim convert of sorts, and reads,
So said Jesus on whom be peace! The world is a bridge; pass over it
but build no house upon it.36
The meaning seems to be to keep in mind that the permanent home of the
human spirit is not of this world, but with the Universal
Consciousness, or God. Since the saying is not in the Gospels, it is
consistent with having been uttered by Yuz Asaf. Its spiritual nature
is fully consistent with the content of the previously mentioned
Talmud of Jmmanuel. Possibly, verse 42 of the Gospel of Thomas is
based upon this saying, for it reads, "Become passers-by" or "Become,
as you pass by."
It may be speculated that one of those who accompanied Yuz Asaf alias
Jesus on his travels was a disciple-writer who continued to document
Jesus' experiences and ministry until his own death, after which the
writings ceased or were taken over by another until Jesus' death. If
so, Jesus may have made provision for someone to carry a copy of the
writings back on the Silk Road to the Palestinian area soon after his
death, where it eventually came into the custody of the compiler of
the Gospel of Matthew.37 This then would have been the source that
Bishop Papias had learned about and referred to as the Logia, and the
reason for the Gospels having come into existence relatively late.38 A
supportive legend behind this speculation comes from the mention by
Eusebius that the well known Alexandrian, Pantaenus (late second
century), reported that during his trip to India he had learned that
one of the twelve apostles had earlier preached there to the Indians
from a Hebraic writing identified as the Gospel of Matthew. 39 Since
the Gospels as they became known by mid-2nd century had not yet been
created while any apostles were still alive, this suggests that the
preaching Pantaenus reported had come from a pre-Matthean source
written in India -- the Logia. The early parts of these Logia would
have resembled the Gospel of Matthew. 40
The first Muslim writer known to have included the tradition of Jesus
having traveled to India in his youth with the tradition that he, as
Yuz Asaf, had traveled in southwest Asia in the latter half of the
first century, was the 10th-century historian, Shaikh Al-Said. 41
Jesus within Hinduism. The Hindu literature known as the Bhavishya
Maha Purana contains some ten verses indicating that Jesus was in
India/Kashmir during the reign of King Shalivahan, which has been
placed within 39 to 50 C.E. The king is said to have encountered Jesus
at a spot about 10 miles northeast of Srinagar where there is a sulfur
spring.42 During the king's inquiries of who he was, Jesus is reported
to have replied that he was Yusashaphat (interpreted as Yuz Asaf by K.
N. Ahmad), and that he had become known as Isa Masih (Jesus the
Messiah). K. N. Ahmad dates the writing of these verses to 115 C.E.
Although details of the verses may indicate that they received later
editing, their basic theme -- that Christianity's Jesus had been there
in Kashmir -- persists.
Much more recent is a statement by Jawarhar Nehru in a 1932 letter to
his daughter, Indira, where he wrote, "All over Central Asia, in
Kashmir and Ladakh and Tibet and even farther north, there is a strong
belief that Jesus or Isa travelled about there. Some people believed
that he visited India also."43 This testifies to the persistence of
the oral tradition.
Jesus within Buddhism. It has been suggested that within Mahayana
Buddhism the legendary Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara developed out of
Jesus having been in Tibet and India. 44 For one reason, this
bodhisattva is thought to have reached his earliest known (legendary)
form around the second or third century C.E.,46
For still another reason, given the impact that Jesus made in just a
couple years of ministry in Palestine, due in no small measure to his
ability to work miracles and prophesy, it would not be surprising that
his further ministry during many post-crucifixion years of traveling
outside of Palestine under different names would also have received
acclaim, at least within oral tradition. The Bodhisattva
Avalokitesvara is a candidate for this because he became the top one
or two of all the numerous bodhisattvas in importance and degree of
respect and worship accorded. 47 Within Buddhist thought, the
successive Dalai Lamas are believed to be reincarnations of
Avalokitesvara.
However, the primary reason is that he is sometimes portrayed with a
small circular marking on the hand, which could represent a
crucifixion scar.48 A similar marking, usually interpreted as the
Buddhist wheel of life, is mentioned in a third-century writing to be
imprinted upon the soles of his feet.49
The mythologization of Avalokitesvara became so extensive that he has
even been considered the creator of the world. 50 This is surprisingly
similar to Jesus being professed as part of the Godhead who was with
God the Creator from the beginning. If both creation strories are
considered to be myths, however, it is not surprising that the same
man could have inspired both.
If Avalokitesvara should indeed be another name for Jesus, it is an
example of a legend as yet known to only a few. But if it was known to
be more than just a legend to some Buddhists at the time the name
Avalokitesvara was bestowed, it is understandable that they would not
wish to antagonize Christians by insisting Buddhism call him by the
same name that Christianity uses.
Kersten has advanced the idea that the name Yuz Asaf may actually have
a Buddhist derivation. If Jesus had called himself a knower of truth,
or others had recognized this, then in Sanskrit this phrase would be
"bodhi sattva," or "budasaf" essentially, Kersten suggests.51 He
pointed out that in Syrian, Arabic and Persian, "Budasaf" would read
like "Judasaf" or "Yudasaf," since their letters J and B are nearly
identical. The latter two words are sufficiently similar, then, that
this could be the real etymology behind "Yuz Asaf."
The tradition that Jesus, under whatever name, had been to the Kashmir
region in years after the crucifixion is known to some of the lamas.
In 1922 Swami Abhedananda, a well known monk and disciple of Sri
Ramakrishna of the Barahanagar Temple, near Calcutta, learned of this
from a lama at Himis monastery, Ladakh.52
Jesus within Roman paganism. It is only natural to inquire if a
similar legend might not exist within Roman paganism that would point
back to Jesus as having been its source. There is indeed such a legend
-- the man known as Apollonius of Tyana, but he was more than a
legend. He is supposed to have been born around the commencement of
the Christian era and to have died in 97 C.E. His life is described
within a biography written in Rome by the Greek philosopher,
Philostratus, around 220 C.E.53 If the many other traditions that
collectively indicate Jesus had spent years traveling after the
crucifixion contain truth, it would not be surprising that he would
sometimes have been confronted by a Roman official and, to be safe,
would have needed to supply himself with an alias. A Greek name with
pagan overtones -- Apollonius -- would no doubt have made it easier
for him to travel within Anatolia and elsewhere within the Roman
empire.
In his biography Philostratus credits Apollonius with the same kinds
of powers that the Gospels depict for Jesus: healing, casting out of
spirits, and foreknowledge. One of his healings was particularly
suggestive, where he brought a girl back to life who had recently
died, very much as with the daughter of Jairus in Matthew 9:23-25. And
at one point Philostratus went so far as to allude that Apollonius
would actually be alive when his followers would instead think he had
risen from the dead.54
This connection between Apollonius and Jesus did not go unnoticed by
influential Christians. Eusebius knew of it, and denounced those who
wrote favorably about this Apollonius. 55 Fortunately, however,
Philostratus's biography managed to survive, though an antecedent's
books about Apollonius did not.56 It would seem that Philostratus had
taken care to ensure in his book that any connection between
Apollonius and Jesus would be indirect and not too apparent. For
example, he never mentioned Apollonius as residing in, or traveling
to, the land of Israel.
On his journeys Apollonius is said to have been accompanied not only
by his primary companion, Damis, but by "two servants he had
inherited" -- one a shorthand writer and the other a secretary.57
These two could easily correspond to Jesus' disciple-writer and to his
mother, respectively. Damis would then correspond to Judas-Thomas, and
we may note a similarity between Thomas's Greek name "Didymus" and
"Damis."
On one trip Apollonius and his party travel to Babylon, where the king
had fallen ill. Apollonius attends him and brings about his
recovery.58 This story is somewhat reminiscent of Faqir Muhhamad's
account of Thomas having cured the king of Nisibis, if allowance is
made for Philostratus to have altered the geographical location.
On a longer trip eastward to Taxila (in Pakistan) Apollonius and his
party are said to have visited King Gundaphorus for several days.59
That visit is reminiscent of one to the same king reported in the Acts
of Thomas.60 However, Philostratus found much to say about Apollonius
and Damis there while in the Acts of Thomas Jesus only puts in
fleeting apearances at King Gundaphorus's court, as if its writer knew
that were he to write anything further it would target his Gnostic
document for oblivion by defenders of Christianity.
Analysts have had great difficulty with the biography of Apollonius in
trying to determine which parts are historical and which are fiction.
However, Apollonius himself was definitely a historical figure:
(a) four books by one Moeragnes that did not survive were
written about him and mentioned by Origen;
(b) Apollonius is mentioned by the Greek rhetorician Lucian;
and
(c) the historian Cassius Dio mentions him twice in contexts of
having been a real figure. 61
Just how and where Apollonius of Tyana died is left vague by
Philostratus. He has no known tomb or burial site, despite his
historical importance, which is consistent with his name being a
pseudonym and/or his burial place being outside of the Roman empire.
There is an Apollonius website devoted entirely to this man and the
problem he posed for early Christianity.
The tradition relayed by Ireaneus. Besides the clues within the
Gospels of the empty tomb and post-entombment appearances, which are
consistent with Jesus later having had an extended ministry outside of
Palestine, a tradition consistent with this was made known by a
prominent church father. Irenaeus, who lived until about 180 C.E., and
who was a staunch quasher of heresies, nevertheless attested to a
tradition that elders of the church who were conversant with the
disiple John in Asia had affirmed that Jesus had reached old age --
beyond 50.62 The crux of it reads as follows:
On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a
young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age. Now, that
the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this
extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from
the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old
age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a
Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were
conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord [affirming]
that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among
them up to the time of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only
John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account as
to the [validity of] the statement.
"The statement" or "information" evidently is the assertion that Jesus
had reached the stage of old age and was still teaching, and was no
longer the young 30 he had been at the crucifixion (suffering). The
clause "even as the Gospel and all the elders testify" reads like a
scribal addition that attempts to explain this away in reference to Jn
8:56, which strangely implies that Jesus, during his Palestinian
ministry, was nearing the age of 50. The preceding paragraph, not
reproduced here, also reads like a scribal addition designed to
ameliorate the impact of the above statement; it talks of Jesus,
during his ministry, being of all ages, and taking on the age of each
person who was listening to him.
It is not known how Irenaeus assimilated this information into his
belief in the resurrection. The editors of Ante-Nicene Fathers called
it an "extraordinary assertion," but could only imply that Irenaeus
had somehow been grossly in error. It should be clear that if the
statement had merely involved the fact that Jesus had been a teacher
for one, two or three years until the day he was crucified, this is
not anything Irenaeus would have bothered to report, as Christians
already knew that. The mention of Asia in the above report probably
refers to Asia Minor, or Anatolia.
SUMMARY
Many of the foregoing legends and traditions may be unfamiliar to the
reader because they have been systematically ignored and suppressed in
the West. However, when they are viewed together as a whole, we see a
very consistent picture that is trying to tell us that Christianity at
a very early stage was directed onto the wrong path, first by Paul and
then by the early churches which Paul so heavily influenced. The right
path instead tells us much more of just how remarkable this man, known
to us today as Jesus, actually was. This is not to say that some
fraction of the strange tales one may read about Jesus are not
fictions, but to say that a holistic perception is needed to separate
probable fact from probable fiction. The practice of assuming that any
tradition is false if it conflicts with one's own particular
theological commitment, without having first carefully examined it
with a truly open mind and in a comprehensive manner, cannot be
condoned within true scholarship or true science.
ENDNOTES
1. See, e.g., Hugh J. Schonfield, The Passover Plot (London:
Hutchinson, 1966); Donovan Joyce, The Jesus Scroll (Melbourne,
Australia: Ferret Books, 1972); and Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and
Henry Lincoln, Holy Blood, Holy Grail (New York: Harper and Row, 1983)
357.
2. See Khwaja Nazir Ahmad, Jesus in Heaven on Earth, (Woking, England:
Woking Muslim Mission & Literary Trust, 1952) 196-199. See also
several relevant articles in Truth about the Crucifixion (London: The
London Mosque, 1978).
3. See, for example, David Friedrich Strauss, A New Life of Jesus,
vol. 1, 2nd Ed. (London: Williams and Norgate, 1879) 410-411.
4. See William Lane Craig, The Historical Argument for the
Resurrection of Jesus during the Deist Controversy (Lewiston, NY:
Edwin Mellen Press, 1985) 392-393.
5. James W. Deardorff, Jesus in India (Bethesda, MD, International
Scholars Publications, 1994) 138-139.
6. Ibid.,140-141.
7. Craig, Historical Argument, 400. See also Karl Barth, The Theology
of Schleiermacher, ed. D. Ritschl, transl. G. Bromiley (Grand Rapids,
MI: Eerdmans, 1982) 101-102.
8. E. B. Docker, If Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross: A Study of the
Evidence (London: Robert Scott, 1920), 20-21, 32-33, 49.
9. R. Graves and J. Podro, Jesus in Rome (London: Cassell & Co., 1957)
12-13. Much of the book is devoted to the possibility that Jesus
traveled to Rome after the crucifixion, which I find to be based on
only one very shaky bit of evidence.
10. Talmud Jmmanuel, ed. Eduard A. Meier (Schmidrüti, Switzerland:
1978). See also the present web site:
http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj/index.htm.
11. Samadhi is a trance-state of meditation whose deepest form is the
same as being "out-of-body." According to Janet Lee Mitchell, Out of
Body Experiences: A Handbook (New York: Ballantine Books, 1981) either
exhaustion, a life-threatening situation or the purposeful intent of
an experienced practitioner can induce it. In this state, no pain
inflicted upon the body is felt, not even from a spear thrust, and it
is not surprising that both the soldiers involved in the crucifixion
and the bystanders would have mistakenly thought Jmmanuel was dead.
Even one of the Gospels indicates that this sort of thing can happen
(Mk 9:26): the onlookers of Jesus' healing of the paroxysmic boy
thought he was dead after he had become "like a corpse," until Jesus
took his hand.
Samadhi is known within Hinduism and Buddhism, and Jesus would
likely have learned how to access this state if the "lost years" of
his youth had been spent in India. See Deardorff, Jesus in India,
101-134; and Elizabeth Clare Prophet, The Lost Years of Jesus
(Livingston, MT: Summit University Press, 1984). The TJ briefly
indicates that Jmmanuel (Jesus) had indeed been to India during his
youth, had learned much from the Masters there, and had acquired Hindu
friends during or after his return.
12. J.D.M. Derrett, The Anastasis: The Resurrection of Jesus as an
Historical Event (Shipston-on-Stour, England: P. Drinkwater, 1982).
13. Deardorff, Jesus in India, 148.
14. Barbara Thiering, Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls
(San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1992), 116.
15. Strauss, New Life of Jesus, vol. 1, 412.
16. W. D. Edwards, Wesley J. Gabel, and Floyd E. Hosmer, "On the
physical death of Jesus," J. American Medical Assn. 255 (1986)
1455-1463.
17. Per Beskow, Strange Tales about Jesus: A survey of Unfamiliar
Gospels (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985).
18. Deardorff, Jesus in India, 112-134.
19. Beskow, Strange Tales, 8.
20. Holger Kersten, Jesus Lived in India, transl. T. Woods-Czisch
(Longmead, Shaftesbury, Dorset, England: Element Book, 1986) 177-178.
21. The Talmud of Jmmanuel, Eduard Meier, ed. (Mill Spring, NC: Wild
Flower Press, 1996) 265.
22. This links to http://www.tjresearch.info/paulconv.htm.
23. Mir Khawand bin Badshah, Rauza-tus-Safa (The Gardens of Purity)
(Bombay: reprinted in 1852) vol. 1 of 7, 132-136. See also the
secondary source: K. N. Ahmad, Jesus in Heaven on Earth, 358, 404.
24. Jami-ut-Tawarikh, vol. 2 (1836) p. 81.
25. Kersten, Jesus Lived in India, 179. This story may lie at the root
of the legend of the letter from Jesus to Abgarus, king of Edessa,
known to Eusebius in EH 1.13.
26. Abu Jaffar Muhammad bin Jarir at-Tabri, Tafsir Ibn-i-Jarir
at-Tabri (Jami al Bayan fi Tafsir-ul-Qur'an) (Cairo: Kubr-ul-Mar'a
Press, 1880) vol. 3, p. 197. See also K. N. Ahmad, Jesus in Heaven on
Earth, 359, 392.
27. K. N. Ahmad, Jesus in Heaven on Earth, 359-360. See also Peter
James, "Did Christ die in Kashmir?" Islamic Rev. 3 (Oct./Nov., 1983)
17.
28. Agha Mustafai, Ahwali Ahalian-i-Paras (Tehran:1868) 219. See K. N.
Ahmad, Jesus in Heaven on Earth, 360, 404.
29. See Deardorff, Jesus in India, 22-35. There the evidence is
presented indicating that Jesus had actually taught reincarnation, not
resurrection.
30. Omar Michael Burke, Among the Dervishes (London: Octagon Press,
1976), 107.
31. Kersten, Jesus Lived in India, 186.
32. Mulla Nadiri, Tarikh-i-Kashmir (1413 manuscript in possession of
Ghulam Mohy-ud-Din Wanchu, Srinagar) 69. See K. N. Ahmad, Jesus in
Heaven on Earth, 369-370, 400. "Children of Israel" here refers to the
Bani-Israel, those numerous residents of Kashmir, northern India and
Afghanistan whose characteristics and culture appear to have derived
from Semitic ancestry. Several researchers conclude that they
represent parts of the ten lost tribes of ancient Israel; e.g., see
George Moore, The Lost Tribes (London: Longman Green, 1861).
33. Kersten, Jesus Lived in India, 200; Fida Hassnain, A Search for
the Historical Jesus (Bath, England: Gateway Books, 1994) 201-203.
34. Abu Muhammad Haji Mohyud-Din, Tarikh-i-Kabir-i-Kashmir (Amritsar,
India: Suraj Parkash Press, 1903) 34-35. See also K. N. Ahmad, Jesus
in Heaven on Earth, 373-374, 399.
35. Kersten, Jesus Lived in India, 208-209; Hassnain, Search for the
Historical Jesus 173-181.
36. Vincent A. Smith, Akbar the Great Mogul, 1542-1605 (Delhi: S.
Chand, 1966) 200.
37. This is consistent with the TJ's story, where the courier of the
documents or scrolls is reported to have been one of Jesus' sons. It
is also consistent with the legend that Jesus finally married an
Indian or Kashmiri woman who bore him several children as mentioned by
James, "Did Christ Die in Kashmir?" 17, and Hassnain, Search for the
Historical Jesus, 198.
38. See Deardorff, The Problems of New Testament Gospel Origins (New
York: Mellen Press, 1992) 9-22.
39. Eusebius, EH 5.10.2-4.
40. The Talmud of Jmmanuel, or TJ, is evidently a candidate to have
been these Logia.
41. Shaikh A-Said-us-Sadiq, Kamal-ud-Din (Iran:Syed-us-Sanad Press,
1782) 357-358. See K. N. Ahmad, Jesus in Heaven on Earth, 365-366.
42. Pandit Sutta, Bhavishya Maha Puranan, 3.3.17-31 (Bombay:
Venkateshvaria Press, 1917) 282. See also Kersten, Jesus Lived in
India, 195-196; and K. N. Ahmad, Jesus in Heaven on Earth, 369.
43. Jawarhar Lal Nehru, Glimpses of World History (New York: John Day
Co., 1942), 84.
44. Kersten, Jesus Lived in India, 204.
45. John Blofield, Compassion Yoga (London: George Allen & Unwin,
1977) 22; Sir Monier Monier-Williams, Buddhism (London: John Murray,
1890) 195-196.
46. John Clifford Holt, Buddha in the Crown (New York: Oxford
University Press, 1991) 53, 55.
47. Donald S. Lopez and Steven C. Rockefeller, eds., The Christ and
the Bodhisattva (New York: State University of New York Press, 1987)
28-29.
48. Deardorff, Jesus in India, 260. Although modern scholars suppose
that the Romans would have known to drive the crucifixion nails
through the lower wrists rather than through the hands, to better
support the body on the cross, we have no reason to believe that
victims in that area had previously been crucified other than by
having their hands and wrists (and feet) strapped rather than nailed.
Hence, if using nails for the first time there, the Romans soldiers
may very well have targeted Jesus' hands, not wrists, not knowing any
better. In any event, the executioners were not in the business of
being humane.
49. Holt, Buddha in the Crown, 35. See also Kersten, Jesus Lived in
India, 204.
50. Edward J. Thomas, The History of Buddhist Thought, 2nd Ed. (New
York: Barnes & Noble, 1951) 190-191.
51. Kersten, Jesus Lived in India, 203-204.
52. Abhedananda, Swami Abhedananda's Journey into Kashmir and Tibet
(Calcutta: Ramakrishna Vedanta Math, 1987; also available from Vedanta
Press, Hollywood, CA), 121.
53. Philostratus, Life of Apollonius, G. W. Bowersock, ed., C. P.
Jones, transl. (Baltimore: Penguin Books, 1970).
54. Ibid., 197. In the passage in question, it appears certain to
Damis, Apollonius' closest follower, that his master would soon be
executed by Nero. But Apollonius instructs Damis to "'Walk by the sea
where the isle of Calypso is, because I will appear before your eyes
there.' 'Alive,' asked Damis, 'or how?' Apollonius laughed and said,
'To my way of thinking, alive, but to yours, risen from the dead.'"
55. Eusebius, "Against Apollonius of Tyana by Philostratus," in The
Life of Apollonius of Tyana, the Epistles of Apollonius and the
Treatise of Eusebius, F. C. Conybeare, ed. (Cambridge, MA: Harvard
University Press, 1912) vol. 2, 485-605.
56. Philostratus, Life of Apollonius, 13. This earlier, late
2nd-century author was Moeragnes, who had written four books about
Apollonius, none of which survived.
57. Ibid., 44.
58. Ibid., 51.
59. Ibid., 57-67.
60. See Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, 541-542.
61. Philostratus, Life of Apollonius, 10-12.
62. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book. 2, chap. 22, paragraph 5, in
Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, 392.
smith
He was supposed to betray Christ otherwise how would Christ die on the
cross and remove our sins?
No Judas=No Cruxifixion=No way into heaven
Caiaphas wrote:
> "ZULH" <zu...@pc.jaring.my> wrote in message
> news:ba08vf$qqe$1...@news4.jaring.my...
>
>>From book of Matthew, one of the 12 disciples - Judas - who betrayed Jesus
>>Christ*, accepted the pay, but then he hanged himself.
>>
>>Now what's the fate for himself (Judas)?
>>(That part is floating around in my mind).
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Perhaps Judas did more good than bad. When Judgement day comes, maybe Judas
> will be considered righteous because he did more good than bad and that he
> repented at the end. It would appear obvious that Judas did repent at the
> end in that he committed suicide over what he did against Jesus.
>
>
>
>
The Cynic
Sadaam? Etc
"Darth Birdy" <notn...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ihs6dv8frnqdakien...@4ax.com...
> Very funny.
>
> Nothing in the Bible predicts the coming of Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah
> and Jeremiah too.
>
> Big deal? LOL
ZULH
smith <sm...@post.net> wrote in message news:3ED4928D...@post.net...
> Why blame Judas for what he did?
> He was supposed to betray Christ otherwise how would Christ die on the
> cross and remove our sins?
>
> No Judas=No Cruxifixion=No way into heaven
So, Judas should have been your HERO, not Jesus :-)
From your point of view, it's very clear that Jesus depended on the action
of Judas...
ZULH
>
> Caiaphas wrote:
Yohan the Lost
"hard", rather than 'impossible'. The fact that you even quoted it was a
nice touch.
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"kaherah" <k...@h.com> wrote in message
news:3ececd53...@news.starhub.net.sg...
Yohan the Lost
> textual and form criticism to the extent that you're not aware that
> the resurrection narratives contain several kinds of writing genres,
> not all of them historical.
It bothers people because they cannot accept the idea that 'the bible is
perfect' while reading it with a critical mind.
The church would have many more members if it gave up the nothing that the
bible is 'the literal word of God'. They did not believe it when they argued
over the inclusion of each book, so why should we believe it now?
> So? The variance in reports may tend to lend credibility to the
> accounts because it looks like typical reports of recalled events, not
> like 'myths/lies in the making'.
Not if you are of the 'every word is literally true' or the 'if anything is
wrong, it is all wrong' camps. Often a person will go from extreme faith to
extreme atheism as a result of the perfect belief being disproved. That is
why Fundamentalists are afraid of biblical scholarship to the point where
they believe that reading the original Greek will cause you to lose your
soul to the devil.
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"penitent leper" <bast...@peak.org> wrote in message
news:jkb0dv452dq3g9ne8...@4ax.com...
Yohan the Lost
They are not in harmony with each other. Some books explicitly challenge
beliefs set down in other books. And the older, compilation style books like
Genesis are full of inconsistencies.
> Often new concepts on a subjects are expressed, but these concepts do not
> undermine what other Bible writers say on the same subject.
Have you bothered to read the Gospels? Jesus repeatedly contradicts the laws
of the old testament. He even goes so far to redefine the Sabbath and the
proper way to pray (private, as opposed to in the church).
Consider the letters of Paul and James. They are obviously at odds over the
relative importance of good deeds versus faith.
How many animals were on the Ark? Two of each or seven of the clean.
Will the Kingdom of Heaven come "like a thief in the night" (Gospels), or
with many signs and portents (Revelation)?
> C. Ask people who have viewed an identical event to each give a report
> of what happened. They will differ widely and will virtually always
> contradict each other in some way. Yet the Bible, penned by 40 writers
over
> a 1,500 year period, reads as it written by one great mind.
Then why do we have four Gospels? Did Jesus die and resurrect four different
times, each time differently then the last?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"e-Entrepreneur" <kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote in message
news:barp4h$9uj$1...@reader01.singnet.com.sg...
Yohan the Lost
> writting is infallible.
> It is not surprising that the translated versions contains error - to err
is
> human!
Removing entire books is not a translation error, it is a significant
alteration.
Now, back to the questions at hand...
> > How can a book like Judith be the
> > infallible word of God one moment and not the next?
> > Why are there so
> > many different versions of the Bible?
> > And which version is the
> > infallible word of God?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"e-Entrepreneur" <kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote in message
news:bat4v0$356$1...@mawar.singnet.com.sg...
Yohan the Lost
often
> in the Old Testament.
Reference please.
> Because, none are to be found, the sole criteria for Muhammad's authority
> rests entirely on the Qur'an.
How is it any different than that of Christ?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"e-Entrepreneur" <kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote in message
news:baud8a$doi$1...@reader01.singnet.com.sg...
e-Entrepreneur
"Yohan the Lost" <yo...@poee.org> wrote in message
news:Pv8Ba.2251$KN3.7...@dca1-nnrp1.news.algx.net...
> > The original writers of the Bible was inspired by God - hence the
original
> > writting is infallible.
> > It is not surprising that the translated versions contains error - to
err
> is
> > human!
>
> Removing entire books is not a translation error, it is a significant
> alteration.
>
> Now, back to the questions at hand...
>
> > > How can a book like Judith be the
> > > infallible word of God one moment and not the next?
The book of Judith is one of the Apocryphal books.
The Primary reason is that The Jewish Canon, that Scripture which Jesus
Himself believed in did not include the Apocryphal books.
1.. The number of books in the Hebrew Old Testament is 24 in the Hebrew
method of counting which is equivalent to the 39 books we have in our
English translations with our English methods of counting.
2.. The apocryphal books were only included in the Old Testament as late
as the non-Christian Greek translation called The Septuagint. In other
words, the Jewish Old Testament that Jesus believed to be authoritative did
not contain the Apocryphal books. The Septuagint was translated around 300
B.C. while the earliest copies that we have are from 300 A.D. and it was
between these 600 years that the Apocryphal books crept into the Greek
Canon, yet they never appeared in the Hebrew Canon, nor did Jesus ever quote
them or consider them to be authoritative.
1.. No New Testament book references an Apocryphal book as
authoritative.
2.. Jesus says in Luke 24:44, "He said to them, 'This is what I told you
while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written
about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms" (NIV).
>
> > > Why are there so
> > > many different versions of the Bible?
If you are referring to perceived inconsistencyies and contradictions from
different versions of the Bible, it is because these translations were the
results of human errors.
>
> > > And which version is the
> > > infallible word of God?
The original writings in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek of the 66 books of the
Bible.
e-Entrepreneur
> > Muslims and Christians alike agree that Christ's coming was predicted
> often
> > in the Old Testament.
>
> Reference please.
Consider one of many examples from the Bible:
In Micah 5:2 he wrote, "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little
among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One
to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from
everlasting." This is clearly a Messianic prophecy, since it describes one
who is "from everlasting." And it prophesies that the Messiah would be born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah.
Yet, the prophet said that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, and not
just any Bethlehem, including the Bethlehem considered more significant and
important in Zebulon, but Bethlehem Ephrathah, Bethlehem which had been
known as Ephrath. And that is exactly where Jesus was born (Matthew 2:1-6).
And from the Qur'an by way of inference on the Miraculous Conception of
Christ:
And mention in the Book, the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her
people to a place In the East.
And she placed a screen to screen herself from them;
Then we sent unto her Our Spirit, that appeared to her as a man in all
respects.
She said. "I take refuge in the All-Merciful from you, If you fear Allah
..,"
He said, "I am but a messenger come from your Lord, to announce to you the
gift of a holy son."
She said, "How can I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am
not unchaste?"
He said, "Even so your Lord has said:
'Easy is that for Me, and that We may appoint him a sign unto men and a
mercy from Us; it is a thing decreed'."
So she conceived him, and withdrew with him to a distant place ...
(SURA MARYAM) Holy Qur'an 19: 16-22.
e-Entrepreneur
> > The 66 books maintain harmony with each other
>
> They are not in harmony with each other. Some books explicitly challenge
> beliefs set down in other books. And the older, compilation style books
like
> Genesis are full of inconsistencies.
What are those inconsigtencies?
>
> > Often new concepts on a subjects are expressed, but these concepts do
not
> > undermine what other Bible writers say on the same subject.
> Have you bothered to read the Gospels? Jesus repeatedly contradicts the
laws
> of the old testament. He even goes so far to redefine the Sabbath and the
> proper way to pray (private, as opposed to in the church).
The laws of the old testament and the "redefintion" of them need not mean
contradictions as they were applicable during different periods of time.
>
> Consider the letters of Paul and James. They are obviously at odds over
the
> relative importance of good deeds versus faith.
Is the importance are relative, then they can't be at odds with one another
:)
>
> How many animals were on the Ark? Two of each or seven of the clean.
"Everything that is on the earth shall die" by a flood. (Gen. 6:17; 7:4).
Noah was also told that the Ark would save his family (four married couples)
and a male and female pair of every kind of "unclean" animal and 7 each (or
7 pairs) of every "clean" animal. (Gen. 6:18-19).
>
> Will the Kingdom of Heaven come "like a thief in the night" (Gospels), or
> with many signs and portents (Revelation)?
The Kingdom of Heaven will come "like a thief in the night".
The signs and portents have come to pass and are still happening to serve as
warnings.
There is no contradiction.
>
> > C. Ask people who have viewed an identical event to each give a
report
> > of what happened. They will differ widely and will virtually always
> > contradict each other in some way. Yet the Bible, penned by 40 writers
> over
> > a 1,500 year period, reads as it written by one great mind.
>
> Then why do we have four Gospels? Did Jesus die and resurrect four
different
> times, each time differently then the last?
The 4 Gospels complement one another. Jesus's death and resurrection is
consistent in all 4 Gospels.
Yohan the Lost
> Himself believed in did not include the Apocryphal books.
There was no canon when Jesus was alive.
With a direct link to God (not to mention being God), why would Jesus need
to believe in a canon?
> 1.. No New Testament book references an Apocryphal book as
> authoritative.
Most NT books make no reference to Jewish scripture, and the ones that do
are limited to predictions about the coming of Jesus. By the same token,
very few OT books are mentioned by the NT.
> 1.. The number of books in the Hebrew Old Testament is 24 in the Hebrew
> method of counting which is equivalent to the 39 books we have in our
> English translations with our English methods of counting.
The number of remaining books is 24. There are roughly 2 dozen books
mentioned by the OT that are no longer available.
> 2.. Jesus says in Luke 24:44, "He said to them, 'This is what I told
you
> while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written
> about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms" (NIV).
That doesn't mean that the other books are incorrect, just that they don't
have prophesies that need to be fulfilled.
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"e-Entrepreneur" <kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote in message
news:bb3lpp$ni0$1...@reader01.singnet.com.sg...
Yohan the Lost
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"e-Entrepreneur" <kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote in message
news:bb3nvq$nlt$1...@reader01.singnet.com.sg...
penitent leper
wrote:
>> The Primary reason is that The Jewish Canon, that Scripture which Jesus
>> Himself believed in did not include the Apocryphal books.
>
>There was no canon when Jesus was alive.
>With a direct link to God (not to mention being God), why would Jesus need
>to believe in a canon?
>
>> 1.. No New Testament book references an Apocryphal book as
>> authoritative.
Well, there is one NT book, Jude vs. 9, which quotes the Assumption
of Moses, and vs. 14, which quotes the apocryphal book of Enoch.
>Most NT books make no reference to Jewish scripture,
Actually, **almost all** NT books refer to Jewish scripture.
>and the ones that do
>are limited to predictions about the coming of Jesus.
Yes, there are multiple references to supposed Hebrew Bible prophecies
of Jesus being the Messiah - and plenty more as well, e.g., Hebrew
Bible moral codes.
- pl -
Yohan the Lost
> >> authoritative.
>
> Well, there is one NT book, Jude vs. 9, which quotes the Assumption
> of Moses, and vs. 14, which quotes the apocryphal book of Enoch.
First of all, neither of those books are Apocryphal.
Then there is the issue of referencing. Just because a passage appears in
both books does not mean that one is referencing the other. How do you know
Jude quoting the Assumption of Moses? It is quite possible that the writer
got that passage from an entirely different source.
>
> Actually, **almost all** NT books refer to Jewish scripture.
Ok, then give me an example from each book.
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"penitent leper" <bast...@peak.org> wrote in message
news:q4cjdvsl65vrhmh2t...@4ax.com...
Yohan the Lost
>
> "Everything that is on the earth shall die" by a flood. (Gen. 6:17; 7:4).
> Noah was also told that the Ark would save his family (four married
couples)
> and a male and female pair of every kind of "unclean" animal and 7 each
(or
> 7 pairs) of every "clean" animal. (Gen. 6:18-19).
That is not what Genesis 6:18-19 says.
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and
female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every
kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground
will come to you to be kept alive.
However, in chapter 7 God changes his mind.
2 Take with you seven [1] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its
mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and
also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various
kinds alive throughout the earth.
Even if you let the clean/unclean thing pass, God is clearly changing the
number of each type of bird from 2 to 7.
Did God change his mind?
If so, then why does God change his mind?
If not, then how many different versons of the flood were combined to form
Genesis?
Also, why are there different versions?
> The Kingdom of Heaven will come "like a thief in the night".
> The signs and portents have come to pass and are still happening to serve
as
> warnings.
> There is no contradiction.
The term "like a thief in the night" means without warning. A sign is a
warning. Therefore, there is a contradiction.
However, there may also a solution. When does the "Kingdom of Heaven" come
realative to the signs in Revelation? Perhaps the signs indicate one thing,
while the next stage will be a surprise.
> The 4 Gospels complement one another. Jesus's death and resurrection is
> consistent in all 4 Gospels.
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"e-Entrepreneur" <kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote in message
news:bb3pvh$np9$1...@reader01.singnet.com.sg...
Yohan the Lost
> What are those inconsigtencies?
The two very different creation stories (not to mention the what appears to
be a fragment of a third.) And then there is the creation story in Job.
Were man and women created together, or was women created from man?
The number of animals to be carried on the Ark. Depending on the passage, it
was 2 of each or 7 of each clean animal and 2 of each unclean animal.
Who are the children of Adam and Eve married?
Who were the people that Cain fled to?
How did the giants survive the flood? (There are mentioned just before the
flood, and in later stories.)
The part in Genesis 2 that explains why a man leaves his family and lives
with his wife's family (a situation which never actually happens in the
bible).
What happened to the serpent's ability to speak?
If God is all knowing, why does he need to ask the ground what happened to
Abel?
And who was Cain afraid of when God confronted him with his actions?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"e-Entrepreneur" <kee...@mlm-biz.com> wrote in message
news:bb3pvh$np9$1...@reader01.singnet.com.sg...
MalaysiaBoleh!
bible...i was thinking for a long time on this issue actually ..and
felt that judas has all the advantages as a Jesus's disciple to
witness all the miracles...should have etsbalished in faith but for
some reason he betrays Jesus...and you know the rest of story...is he
desperate for money? i am sure he is..
suicide is a one way ticket send you straight to hell..i guess that is
his fate..
"Yohan the Lost" <yo...@poee.org> wrote in message news:<Bil7b.389$ey2...@chiapp03.algx.net>...
ardeedee
Simply means that in all men there are harbours of greed and that even Jesus
when he chose 12 men to assist him can make a mistake on one.
"MalaysiaBoleh!" <davi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:860df7a0.03091...@posting.google.com...
Harro
"ardeedee" <arde...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f5f...@news.starhub.net.sg...
>
> Simply means that in all men there are harbours of greed and that even
Jesus
> when he chose 12 men to assist him can make a mistake on one.
A mistake?! Jesus doesn't make mistakes my friend. He knew Judas would
betray Him. Jesus wasn't caught. He gave Himself for us. Freely laying down
His life. His death and resurrection were His choice. Judas was no surprise
or mistake.
Harro.
ardeedee
"Harro" <har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote in message
news:bjn634$891$1...@au-nws-0001.flow.com.au...
Aardvark
> A mistake?! Jesus doesn't make mistakes my friend. He knew Judas would
> betray Him. Jesus wasn't caught. He gave Himself for us. Freely laying
down
> His life. His death and resurrection were His choice. Judas was no
surprise
> or mistake.
Yeah yeah, just as God knew Adam and Eve would eat from the tree of
knowledge ?
Steve Zodiac
<mic...@thelastchurch.borg> wrote in message
news:bk0vlv07lngh1cgv3...@4ax.com...
> On 10 Sep 2003 03:48:26 -0700, davi...@hotmail.com (MalaysiaBoleh!)
> wrote:
> >what is the fate of judas?
>
> > I would like to know how Jesus would have dealt with
> > Judas.
>
> Forgive. If you understand love, it requires you forgive all things
> because of the compassion it generates in all who love.
> Love is the emotion we get when we DECIDE to forgive in ADVANCE all
> the mistakes a person is going to make in life. Even those mistakes
> that hurt us dearly. There is only one kind of Love and it is always
> unconditional or it is not love. As god loves you, you will love all
> others. Love is not a weakness it is a strengths.
>
> Forgive the world for not being perfect. Forgive the people and
> animals on it for not understanding, even themselves. Forgive
> yourself
> for your limited understanding. When you have forgiven yourself,
> forgiving the rest of the world is easy.
>
> The spirit mistakenly called God loves you unconditionally. (mistakes
> and all) That love means you were forgiven even before you made any
> mistakes. Learning to forgive is learning to love. Forgiveness leads
> to peace of mind.
>
Michael Michael Michael.
God's perfect love for us should be the ultimate example of how we should
love others.
For instance let your loved ones know they are deeply loved. When they ask
you for help, make sure you don't respond but instead wait till something
good happens to them then take the credit for it. Ensure that something bad
happens to them every once in a while but make sure you let them know it was
just a test to see if they still have faith in your perfect love and
encourage them not to question. If they ultimately get tired of you methods
of expressing your perfect love and decide to find a new friend, then that
is the time to burn their house down with them in it. As they scream in
agony, be sure you remind them that this is what they ultimately wanted by
rejecting your perfect love.
I think the world would be a much better place if we all followed the
perfect example of God's perfect love.
ardeedee
But Jesus is also very ruthless - if he tells you to go to hell it means you
go no matter what.
"Steve Zodiac" <St...@zodiac.net> wrote in message
news:vlvkhf9...@corp.supernews.com...
MalaysiaBoleh!
and he said this to the face of Judas not jst 1 time but several
times...Judas would have change his mind but he didnt ..i just don't
know how was Judas thinking then..
"ardeedee" <arde...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3f5fd342$1...@news.starhub.net.sg>...
Seet King Hwee
human being ) of the Bible started saying it and the generations thenafter
repeated it.
Blasphemy, to utter this. I am an atheist. There is an ALMIGHTY GOD.
Otherwise how would the NATURE cycle ever exist. The point is that human
beings used GOD to lure others into their own spheres of influence;
religions being one such sphere.
Steve Zodiac
<mic...@thelastchurch.borg> wrote in message
news:b840mv8ocghdft74g...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:50:49 +0800, "ardeedee" <arde...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >But Jesus is also very ruthless - if he tells you to go to hell it means
you
> >go no matter what.
>
> reason. Only people do that and mostly to themselves.
> The bible says there is no hell.......
If the great flood is true that makes your sick little god the greatest mass
murderer of all time.
Steve Zodiac
Dore
>
> > The bible says there is no hell.......
>
Don't read the Bible much, huh, Steve?
Matt 5:22
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a
cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his
brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say,
Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
KJV
Matt 5:29-30
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee:
for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not
that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for
it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not
that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
KJV
Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV
Matt 11:23
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down
to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been
done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
KJV
Matt 23:33
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of
hell?
KJV
Luke 16:23
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham
afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
KJV
--
Dore
"Steve Zodiac" <St...@zodiac.net> wrote in message
news:vm1qi0r...@corp.supernews.com...
Dore
news:0vq6mvckop6nd28kd...@4ax.com...
it was written.
> >Don't read the Bible much, huh, Steve?
> The bible is not my idol,though I have read it many times.
> You Dore see the words of man
> and the RCC as God. They are not. Your master is the book
> and you have not been seeking the living spirit of Christ.
> If you had you would know the difference.
Are YOU Steve?
However, I do NOT see the words of man, I KNOW the truths of God, for I KNOW
HIM, personally, intimately and closely, and I despise the RCC. My master is
the Father, the CREATOR of the Universe and ALL things. He is the God of
Gods, the Most High God, and Father of all. And I don't have to SEEK the
living spirit of Christ, for I AM the living spirit of Christ.
you wrote.
> No HELL!
> I assume here that you are referring to the 'hellfire'
> place commonly taught. The BIBLE does NOT
> teach of such a sadistic 'hellfire' place, but
> humans do.
>
I been there, seen it, experienced it and testify of it. If there is NO
hell, then there is NO heaven, and there is NO justice and man does NOT have
free will and choice. The Bible DOES teach of hell, but because YOU ignore
those teachings and refuse to believe in what Christ SAID, it means that YOU
are the one with the problem. You like to pick and choose Biblical
scriptures for your own theology and use it when it is convenient for you
and dismiss it, when it is not.
you wrote.
> And even common sense tells us that anyone claiming to be
> LOVING, would not use fire as a method of punishment.
> And neither does God, who is more loving than any human.
> (1 Jo 4:8) The Bible tells us that burning humans in a fire
> never even crossed God's mind.
> Jer 7:31,
> "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of
> Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the
> fire--something I did not command, nor did it
> enter my mind."
God's eternal JUSTICE has absolutely NOTHING to do what Ben-Hinnom chose to
do on the earth. Hell is a spiritual place, where those who DENY GOD, and
refuse to serve Him, by their own choices of evil and sin, are condemned to.
They have had ample time to seek and KNOW God and walk in all of His ways,
commands, demands, requirements and truths, and have been duly warned of the
consequences of sin, disbelief, choice of evil, denial, disrespect etc, so
they have NO excuse if they are condemned to hell and have to suffer the
consequences of that choice.
you wrote.
>
> "If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least
> thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace,
> and he has not learned the teachings of Christ ." -------
YOU have condemned yourself with this verse, for YOU are ascribing salvation
according to your free will, thinking that there is NO justice, punishment
or consequences for being sinful and evil.
--
Dore
<mic...@thelastchurch.borg> wrote in message
news:0vq6mvckop6nd28kd...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 04:29:14 GMT, "Dore" <spiri...@frontiernet.net>
> wrote:
> >Don't read the Bible much, huh, Steve?
> The bible is not my idol,though I have read it many times.
> You Dore see the words of man
> and the RCC as God. They are not. Your master is the book
> and you have not been seeking the living spirit of Christ.
> If you had you would know the difference.
>
> In the mind of Christ,
> Michael
>
> No HELL!
> I assume here that you are referring to the 'hellfire'
> place commonly taught. The BIBLE does NOT
> teach of such a sadistic 'hellfire' place, but
> humans do.
>
> Briefly, the Bible does mention a "hell" which really
> is a translation in the OT from the Hebrew word
> "sheol". And that word only means "grave". For
> proof, notice that the righteous man Job wanted
> to go to "sheol" (hell) to get RELIEF from his
> suffering. He certainly would not want to go to a
> place that was worse than what he was experiencing
> now!
> Job 14:13,
> "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, [sheol;
> hell] that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy
> wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a
> set time, and remember me!"
>
> Even the "lake of fire" mentioned in the book of
> Revelation, is not supposed to be taken literally.
> For proof notice Re 20:14,
>
> "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
> Notice that "death" was cast into that lake of fire. Can
> "death" be hurled somewhere? Is it a tangible thing?
> No, and neither is the "lake of fire". The end of this
> verse even tells us what the "lake of fire" REPRESENTS.
>
> And even common sense tells us that anyone claiming to be
> LOVING, would not use fire as a method of punishment.
> And neither does God, who is more loving than any human.
> (1 Jo 4:8) The Bible tells us that burning humans in a fire
> never even crossed God's mind.
> Jer 7:31,
> "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of
> Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the
> fire--something I did not command, nor did it
> enter my mind."
>
> "If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least
> thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace,
> and he has not learned the teachings of Christ ." -------
>
>
> .
>
> **************************
> A preacher is the blind
> leading the blind...
>
> The Last Church
> http://www.thelastchurch.org
> mic...@thelastchurch.org
>
> alt.religion.thelastchurch
> alt.religion.the-last-church
lanz...@worldnet.att.net
Message 2 in thread
From: Caiaphas (Caiap...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: What's the fate of Judas?
View this article only
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,
soc.culture.asean, soc.culture.malaysia, soc.culture.singapore
Date: 2003-05-15 07:53:38 PST
"ZULH" <zu...@pc.jaring.my> wrote in message
news:ba08vf$qqe$1...@news4.jaring.my...
> From book of Matthew, one of the 12 disciples - Judas - who betrayed Jesus
> Christ*, accepted the pay, but then he hanged himself.
>
> Now what's the fate for himself (Judas)?
> (That part is floating around in my mind).
>
>
>Can anybody share it?
>
How about this -- Judas was a devoted disciple most of his life and he
committed a big sin by betraying Jesus. But, Jesus predicted that
Judas
would betray him and thus it was predestined that Judas would do that
betrayal. It appears Judas repented at the end and out of sorrow
hanged
himself. Surely Judas accepted Christ as his Savior, being a
Disciple, and
lived under grace. I would think that Judas would be welcomed in
Heaven,
but Jesus will review his life and decide.
***********
Well, feeling guilty isn't a precusor for making it into heaven.
Killing oneself is not the way to make it in either.
Dore
news:3ab474b6.03091...@posting.google.com...
> How about this -- Judas was a devoted disciple most of his life and he
> committed a big sin by betraying Jesus. But, Jesus predicted that
> Judas
> would betray him and thus it was predestined that Judas would do that
> betrayal. It appears Judas repented at the end and out of sorrow
> hanged
> himself. Surely Judas accepted Christ as his Savior, being a
> Disciple, and
> lived under grace. I would think that Judas would be welcomed in
> Heaven,
> but Jesus will review his life and decide.
Except Judas was NOT a devoted disciple. He was chosen to hold the money,
because it too is evil and Christ did NOT want His true disciples to be
tainted by it. He stole from the money bag, and even though he saw all of
the miracles and heard the truths of Christ, he still continued to sin and
be evil. He was chosen because Christ knew he was just evil enough to betray
him to fulfill the plan of salvation at the cross. People who repent, do NOT
commit suicide, for they KNOW that their sins are forgiven. Judas did NOT
repent, but feared the consequences of his life on the earth, after his
betrayal, so he chose to be a coward and kill himself, never believing in
the consequences that he heard speak about in the next life, more of his
evil mindset. Judas is in hell, with Satan, whom he served.
--
Dore
<lanz...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3ab474b6.03091...@posting.google.com...
Dore
news:u9eamvsip2v0t1nrg...@4ax.com...
> No doreen I am not Steve. Can you still remember who you are?
Then why are you answering as if I addressed YOU instead of Steve, who I
was addressing?
you wrote.
> No, you are Dore. If you were living in the spirit of Christ you
> would know me but you don't know me or yourself.
I know you perfectly. YOU are a liar, a devil and deceiver attempting to
come as an angel of light.
you wrote.
> In your dreams maybe but you know you make things up.
> You make your own hell. God is not so cruel as you.
You are the one who makes things up and tries to deceive everyone else with
your lies and distortions of the truth. I don't make my own hell, evil men
make this earth hell by their choices. God is NOT cruel, but He is certainly
JUST and all will receive the perfect justification of their choices while
on the earth, in the next life. God was so kind to provide for you all of
His truths, commands, demands, and requirements, and it is YOUR choice to
dismiss them and go your own way and walk in your own concepts, so you have
NO one to blame but yourself, if you end up in hell. And you know, denying
the existence of hell and Satan, doesn't make them go away, in fact, it
empowers Satan to keep you into even more darkness and blindness, which you
are a perfect example of.
you wrote.
> I am saying one is saved by the grace of God and nothing else.
> Grace means everything, to one who deserves nothing but punishment.
>
Grace was given in the opportunity to be forgiven of sins, IF they are
repented of, because of the work of the cross. If man continues in sin, and
refuses to repent and stop sinning, he receives NO grace. If you receive
punishment, it is because you have chosen evil, disobeyed God and His
commands, demands and requirements, and continue in sin, and doing evil, and
NOT doing the will of God and thus DESERVING of the punishment. But if man
decides to believe in Christ, repent and turn away from his past choices of
evil and sin, then he is given the grace of forgiveness. If a man stays in
sin, he is a servant of sin, and gets exactly what he deserves, because God
has provided all knowledge and information necessary, as well as the promise
of the Holy Spirit of truth, to become righteous, true, pure, sinless and
perfect before God, which is what GOD deserves from those who desire to be
with Him in heaven.
you wrote.
> The punishment is man doing it to himself, not God doing it to man.
> Break the rules of nature and you get the Consequences. If you hate
> hate will destroy you. Anything you do that breaks down your spirit
> will hurt you more than anyone. But in the end you will know your
> mistakes and come to the knowledge of the truth.
>
God does everything, He is ruler, Creator, mighty and powerful, for all
things are ruled by the spirit realm and man receives what he sows according
to the laws of God in the spiritual realm. There are NO rules of nature, for
God and the angels control all things on the earth. And if I hate, it is
because I hate EVIL, as God hates evil. Hate doesn't destroy me, it destroys
those evil ones that I encounter, for I remove my Holy Spirit from those who
cause me to hate. ALL I do is the righteousness of God at all times and the
only thing that can bring down my spirit, is allowing the pain of evil to
get to me, in my attitudes of dwelling on the grief that the sins and evil
of man causes me to feel, instead of resisting and denying it and keeping
my mind on the things of heaven. I AM the knowledge and the truth.
you wrote.
> 1-2 Justice
> Justice is revenge cloaked in saintly raiment. It does nothing to heal
> the wound and only sours the healing. Killing the murderers of the
> world for the sake of vengeance will not bring back their dead, and
> only stains the hands of the self-appointed righteous with the color
> of blood.
Justice is the righteous retribution of those deserving of the punishment of
their choices of evil and sins. Evil DESERVES justice and vengeance. Why do
you consider EVIL, innocent and good, undeserving of justice and vengeance?
I am NOT talking about man's justice on the earth, but God's righteous
justice against evil. If a serial killer has killed hundreds of people, you
don't think that he deserves to LOSE his life in the name of justice? No it
won't bring back the dead that he murdered, but it sure stops anyone else
from being murdered by his hand, doesn't it?
you wrote.
> God does not seek or take revenge. Only people do that and mostly
> to themselves......................
Sure Satan's puppet, think that your evil has no consequences and you can be
as evil as you want. Obviously, you have NO respect for God and couldn't
care less about Him, much less LOVE Him with ALL of your mind, heart, soul
and strength, which is required to be redeemed to be WITH HIM. You want all
evil to be considered blameless and innocent, no matter what and receive the
great rewards of the righteous, as if they were worthy of receiving them.
YOU want to get away with murder without consequences, so because you
believe this, then any evil that any man does to you, will be rewarded,
instead of justifiably punished, because you think evil acts deserve grace.
That thinking allows evil to prosper.
you wrote.
In the mind of Christ,
> Michael
It should rather say, in the mind of Satan, whether you believe he exists or
not, but is in the same mindset regardless. Satan too, thinks that evil is
innocent and deserving of rewards instead of justice and punishment for his
choices.
--
Dore
<mic...@thelastchurch.borg> wrote in message
news:u9eamvsip2v0t1nrg...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:06:21 GMT, "Dore" <spiri...@frontiernet.net>
> wrote:
> >Are YOU Steve?
>
> No doreen I am not Steve. Can you still remember who you are?
> >
> > I AM the living spirit of Christ.
>
> No, you are Dore. If you were living in the spirit of Christ you
> would know me but you don't know me or yourself.
> >
> >I been there, seen it, experienced it and testify of it.
>
> In your dreams maybe but you know you make things up.
> You make your own hell. God is not so cruel as you.
> >> fire--something I did not command, nor did it
> >> enter my mind."
>
> >you wrote.
> >>
> >> "If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least
> >> thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace,
>
> >
> >YOU have condemned yourself with this verse, for YOU are ascribing
salvation
> >according to your free will,
>
> I am saying one is saved by the grace of God and nothing else.
> Grace means everything, to one who deserves nothing but punishment.
>
> > thinking that there is NO justice, punishment
> >or consequences for being sinful and evil.
>
> The punishment is man doing it to himself, not God doing it to man.
> Break the rules of nature and you get the Consequences. If you hate
> hate will destroy you. Anything you do that breaks down your spirit
> will hurt you more than anyone. But in the end you will know your
> mistakes and come to the knowledge of the truth.
>
> > thinking that there is NO justice,
>
> 1-2 Justice
> Justice is revenge cloaked in saintly raiment. It does nothing to heal
> the wound and only sours the healing. Killing the murderers of the
> world for the sake of vengeance will not bring back their dead, and
> only stains the hands of the self-appointed righteous with the color
> of blood.
> God does not seek or take revenge. Only people do that and mostly
> to themselves......................
>
> In the mind of Christ,
> Michael
>
>
The Cynic
> Judas is in hell, with Satan, whom he served.
> --
> Dore
>
Can you prove it? Any witnesses?