BALKAN ALBANIANS AND CAUCASIAN ALBANIANS
Oscar Moscar
Albanians and the Caucasian Albaninas?
To my knowledge (partial and imperfect), the Balkan Albaninas
currently justify their possession of Kosovo on their presumed descent
from Illyrians; I suppose this descent is so, just as much as
Croatians and even Bosnian Serbs are also be descended from Illyrians,
for, to invert the order of the argument by presuming that the
Illyrians ONLY became Albanians is somewhat unrealistic if not
altogether pompous.
On the other hand, Moses of Dasxuranci (Kalakantuaci) in his "History
of the Caucasian Albanians" (flourit c. 1,000 AD) quotes the
"Chronicle of St. Hippolitus" (flourit 685 AD) stating that Tubal was
the ancestor of the T'etalk (Thessalians) and Meshech the ancestor of
the Luricacik' (Illyrians); Moses adds further, from un unknown
source, that the Aluank' (Albanians) are descended from the Cyprians
(here, the term seems to be generic, rather than specifically refering
to the occupants of the island of Cyprus).
Now, the name of Albania does, indeed, seem to be well esconced in the
mythography of the Illyrians (although this is not the place nor the
time to delve into this arcana). But then, where does the name of
Shqiperia, which the Gegs and the Tosks call their country, come from?
And what happened to the Caucasian Albanians... who are they now?
Oscar Moscar
Edin Ilijazi
Albanians now call Albania. I guess this started after Skanderbeg fought the
Turks and the double headed eagle came to represent the Albanians, though I
could be wrong.
Only Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. The Slavs did not come to the
Balkans until the 6th Century AD and the Albanians kept going east so as not
to mix with the Slavic populations. The Slavs came from Russia and other
such countries, they don't have a single thing to do with Illyrians.
As for the caucasian Albanians, I've never heard anything about that before.
As far as I know, Albanians are caucasian.
Edin
"Oscar Moscar" <pen...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:1815b1b8.02010...@posting.google.com...
Cerciz Topulli
> The name Shqiperia refers to 'the land of the eagles' which is what the
> Albanians now call Albania. I guess this started after Skanderbeg fought the
> Turks and the double headed eagle came to represent the Albanians, though I
> could be wrong.
>
> Only Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. The Slavs did not come to the
> Balkans until the 6th Century AD and the Albanians kept going east so as not
> to mix with the Slavic populations. The Slavs came from Russia and other
> such countries, they don't have a single thing to do with Illyrians.
>
> As for the caucasian Albanians, I've never heard anything about that before.
> As far as I know, Albanians are caucasian.
>
> Edin
>
> >>>
The name of slavs come from the word for "slaves" in latin "slavus".
Just like the jews were the slaves of the middle east, so the serbs
and other slavs in the balkans came to be regarded as the pestilence
of this part of the world. It is good that God has helped us to have a
higher birthrate then the slavs now we can kick them out back to
russia and in a couple of decades The Illyrians will once again
reclaim the lands from the Infidels
Cerciz Topulli
Caucasus is the ancient hartland of the illyrian race. It is there
where The city of troy was born and the illyrian settlements grew,
untill the great tragedy occurred. the tragedy of the troyan war, the
Illyrians migrated into what now are called the balkans and into Italy
where they founded rome. the poet homer calls Troy the city of the
Dardanians, and calls its king Dardanian Priam. There were illyrians
in the balkans before and after the Troyan war, but after the war a
massive migration took place which overshadowed any earlier
settlements. Dardanian was the name of the Illyrian tribe which
inhabited the region of what is now called Kosova, Albanian was also
the name of one of the Illyrian tribes which lived in what is now
central albania. The Pelasgians were another that lived in the south.
During the war of troy, many illyrian tribes including the afore
mentioned tribes went to Troy to fight and prottect their ancestral
home unsuccesfully, when they crossed the strait they named it after
themselves, and from there on it was called the strait of the
"Dardanelles" meaning the strait of the Dardanians.
Oscar Moscar
Thank you very much for your information. It has helped some, but
there is still a lot to be unravelled, to be sure!
Oscar
Oscar Moscar
Thanks for your infor, but I have some thots, if you will hear me
out...
I have heard about a hypothesis that places Homer's Troy in the
Western Balkans where the Illyrians were concentrated. If this
hypothesis has any merit, then one might reasonably conclude that the
Illyrians came into historical cognizance more or less at the time of
the Trojan War, not as tribes that suddenly emerged from the earth and
coexisted with what was left of the Trojans, but as a folk from any of
the several Trojan tribes that, for some reason or other, esposed
"Illyrism": in other words, the Illyrians were as much an "ethnicity"
as Muslims are Arabs; in time, the term yielded the geo-political term
"Illyricum".
Now, it is entirely possible I know not what I am talking about, but,
by the same token, it would seem entirely possible that the Trojans
spoke a non-Greek language some four, or perhaps five, hundred years
before Archaic Greece began to emerge as a cultural identity; it if
for this reason that a very large number of toponyms and ethnicons in
Homer cannot be understood in the Greek language--they are nonsensical
etymologies--whereas an etymological approach to these words with a
Slavic vocabulary of some 600 word yields some very interesting
information... and, furthermore, it occurs to me, as I write these
lines, how is it that the Albanian double-headed eagle winds up in
Imperial Russia, the so-called Third Rome?
Oscar Moscar
Is your God different from the God of the Jews and the God of the
Slavs? Maybe God has whispered some secrets into your ear? Me, well...
thank God I am an atheist... Infidels, ha! Would that I be a Fidel
full of hatred? Nahhhhhhhh!
OM
genc ymeri
common with Albania or Albanians.
When Roma Empire occupied this land, the imperator went to visit the new
east territory. After he visited he named it arbitrarily "Albania". I forgot
the name of this imperator but don't know why he called this place so.
Meanwhile it was an Albanians tribe called "Albanoi" in current Albania
much earlier than 1000 AD. From this tribe come the name Albania, Arberia,
Albanians.
Anyhow, you may get more info in www.brittanica.com
> from Illyrians; I suppose this descent is so, just as much as
> Croatians and even Bosnian Serbs are also be descended from Illyrians,
Serbs & Bosnians were/are overwhelming Slavs so having kind mixture with
Illyrians this doesn't make them to be descends of Illyrians, or it is just
like saying that after 500 years, "black africans in S.Africa are descends
of europeans because Europeans made up to 10 % of population of S.Africa
in.......2000."
According to Croatians, based on my knowledge they are heavy mixed
Slavs/Illyrians.
PS:
History of Illyrians from Caucasus, their movement to Dardanelle & so on is
much earlier than that. This has to do with Aryan movement in Europe.
"Oscar Moscar" <pen...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:1815b1b8.02010...@posting.google.com...
Cerciz Topulli
> Cerciz-
>
> Thanks for your infor, but I have some thots, if you will hear me
> out...>>>
Your thoughts are appreciated.
>
> I have heard about a hypothesis that places Homer's Troy in the
> Western Balkans where the Illyrians were concentrated. If this
> hypothesis has any merit, then one might reasonably conclude that the
> Illyrians came into historical cognizance more or less at the time of
> the Trojan War, not as tribes that suddenly emerged from the earth and
> coexisted with what was left of the Trojans, but as a folk from any of
> the several Trojan tribes that, for some reason or other, esposed
> "Illyrism": in other words, the Illyrians were as much an "ethnicity"
> as Muslims are Arabs; in time, the term yielded the geo-political term
> "Illyricum".>>>
Anything is possible but, since it is known that the illyrians were an
indo-european people then they must have travelled with the archaic
indo-european caravan from central asia (the heart of the aryan
tribes) down into europe. that can mean that the original home of the
illyrians as with all indo-europeans was central asia. It is possible
that before that they lived in the north somewhere but that is just
speculation. As far as troy is concerned there are hundreds of cities
bearing that name in and around the present day Troy. The fact that
all ancient historians agree that troy lay in what is now turkey is
evidence that it must have been the right location. There is no reason
to dispute that, also Homer is pretty clear on who the troyans were,
he says they were kin with the "barbarian" peoples who lived north of
greece. Quote in qoute the Illyrians.
>
> Now, it is entirely possible I know not what I am talking about, but,
> by the same token, it would seem entirely possible that the Trojans
> spoke a non-Greek language some four, or perhaps five, hundred years
> before Archaic Greece began to emerge as a cultural identity; it if
> for this reason that a very large number of toponyms and ethnicons in
> Homer cannot be understood in the Greek language--they are nonsensical
> etymologies--whereas an etymological approach to these words with a
> Slavic vocabulary of some 600 word yields some very interesting
> information... and, furthermore, it occurs to me, as I write these
> lines, how is it that the Albanian double-headed eagle winds up in
> Imperial Russia, the so-called Third Rome?>>
That the troyans spoke non-greek that is pretty clear since homer
tells us that whenever the achaeans wanted to communicate with the
troyans they required a translator. he also names the tribes that
fought on the side of the troyans, these tribes were all illyrian
without exception. he also says that the various nations fighting
under the banner of the troyans spoke various barbarian tongues and
wore barbarian clothing. As for the slavic toponyms, the balcanic
slavs being completely devoid of written language must have borrowed
quite a few words from the illyrians with whom they assimilated in the
regions of present-day yugoslavia excluding Kosova. as for your last
comment the double headed white eagle became the symbol of orthodox
faith but the black double headed eagle was neither a religious symbol
nor an illyrian symbol.it was simply the crest banner made to
distinguish the Kastrioti Frudal Clan like it was the custom in feudal
times. At this time in medieval Eurupe this symbol was quite popular
and can be found in many crests of various lords and princes in places
such as in Austria, Germany, scandinavia etc etc.
Edin Ilijazi
you would have fit in very well at the regular Serbian Communist Party
meetings where many wild tales of Albanian origins seemed to be the most
important topic at hand.
I do not take these theories seriously since their only aim is to dispute
the Albanians clame over Kosova.
Edin
"Oscar Moscar" <pen...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:1815b1b8.02010...@posting.google.com...
Cerciz Topulli
> I don't find much to unravel at all. The situation is quite clear. I'm sure
> you would have fit in very well at the regular Serbian Communist Party
> meetings where many wild tales of Albanian origins seemed to be the most
> important topic at hand.
>
> I do not take these theories seriously since their only aim is to dispute
> the Albanians clame over Kosova.
>
> Edin
> >>>
Edin is right. You Oscar should be carefull when speaking of things
which you know nothing about. what is all that which you said about
albanians being slavs. that is a bad joke. Kosova will allways be
Albanian. I only hope soon that the Kosovars realise that the people
in power such as Rugova and thaci are traitors and they serve the
foreign devils which are turning Kosova into a heaven for mafia and
prostitution. There is no room in the Albanian tradition for ammoral
scum . Kosovas destiny is to be Joined with the Mother-country Albania
and thats that. We must all fight for Unification of Our Lands. But
also the albanian governemnt is corrupt and anti-albanian. We must
destroy all of our anti-albanian regimes whether they be in Kosova
Albania or in Macedonia.
Long live united Albania, with a United religion, Islam
Edin Ilijazi
Empire squashed a long time ago. Yes, the Illyrians were very strong in the
region that is now Croatia, but Illyrians never mixed with any Slav nation.
Edin
"genc ymeri" <genc_...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:Z34%7.56574$Z24.16...@typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net...
Edin Ilijazi
Muslims or Christians, but Albanians. Those who put their religion ahead of
their nationality are traitors, and those who would work for foreign
interests, be they Turkish, Greek, Serb or whatever are also traitors. Let
us not forget the 500 years of Ottoman oppression against our people.
Edin
"Cerciz Topulli" <cerciz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:95d09678.02011...@posting.google.com...
Cerciz Topulli
> I can't say I agree with this Islam stuff. Albanians are Albanians, not
> Muslims or Christians, but Albanians. Those who put their religion ahead of
> their nationality are traitors, and those who would work for foreign
> interests, be they Turkish, Greek, Serb or whatever are also traitors. Let
> us not forget the 500 years of Ottoman oppression against our people.
>
> Edin>>>>
Yes Edin i will not forget that. I put Albania before everything, it
is still a fact however that Albania is 80 % muslim. We were taught
that islam is a religion to be ashamed of. I dont agree with that.
That is just western propaganda. I think Islam is a great religion.
Edin Ilijazi
ideal situation would be a return to our pagan roots for all Europeans, but
that will never happen. In the mean time, I will fight against all organised
religion.
Edin
Oscar Moscar
Something doesn't have the right ring... like hearing the sound of
lead instead of the pristine clink of glass when people make a toast,
or, better said, like reading righteous words of righteous indignation
instead of a reasoned exchange of information. I think I have tried to
put forth a reasonable argument, even citing literary references, but
my perception is that all I get from either of you is a hostile
response... a psychological profile of both of you shows that A) you
have an exclusive possession of Truth, and B) that your anger is not
tempered by mercy, but, rather, is a chronic state of blind rage...
Is it really so, so evil to suppose... to have just a musing
thoguht... that Ghegs and Tosks might be Slavs? that they are, de
facto, a mixture of everything, excepting Slavs? Do you, in the name
of the Ghegs and Tosks, espouse a thesis of ethnic purity as Hitler
did?
And as for the so-called virtues of that hiddeous polygamist religion
called Islam: can you name 5 accomplishments of Islam in the last,
say, 500 years?
I will not be posting here again. There are no answers to my
questions.
Oscar Moscar
Cerciz Topulli
> I think Islam was forced upon a great deal of our people by our enemies. An
> ideal situation would be a return to our pagan roots for all Europeans, but
> that will never happen. In the mean time, I will fight against all organised
> religion.
>
> Edin>>>
I think that is a mistake. first Islam was not forced upon us as much
as you think. Because if that were true then the greeks and the serbs
would have also been forced to be islamic because if there is one
people which the ottoman hated were these two. are we weaker then them
because we accepted islam and they didn't? No off course not. But i
think Islam is a religion without contradictions, and it is a religion
which appeals to warlike people such as us. That is why it has been
accepted by mostly mountain people. The people who are more prone to
humanism and to peacefullness they accepted christianity and they live
in the plains. As for the ottoman empire i will tell you that it was
very tolerant of religions, and that you can find out by reading about
it more, much more tolerant than all of the christian countries which
at that time had inquisitions and religious prsecutions. In fact the
ottoman empire became a refuge for all sorts of religious sects which
were persecuted in europe. The jews were also welcomed there. at that
time the albnians had 2 choices. either be christian or muslim. We can
examine why they chose to be islamic. First all of our traditional
enemies, the serbs the greeks etc were christian. Therefore albanians
accepted Islam to preserve their ethnicity from assimilation. If you
see on the other hand throughout our history the greeks have used the
orthodox religion to assimilate albanians in the south and infiltrate
within the orthodox church greek nationalist ideas. on the other hand
the catholics especially in mirdita region were used in the north to
fight on the side of the serbs when they invaded north albania during
the balkanic wars. Second albanians accepted islam because unlike
christianity it is a religion without contradictions. Christianity for
example says that there is one god but it worships jesus who is the
son of god and therefore there are 2 gods a contradiction. Also islam
is a religion that preaches war against injustice not like
christianity which preaches pacifism against injustice. As for
european paganism that era will never return because paganism was not
an organised religion. But i agree with you that if it was possible
then all europeans should embrace their national religions instead of
foreign ones. but here we are today and we have to make the choices
with what we have available. the choices are clear. Christianity, and
sink with europe into oblivion which they have created. or Islam the
most healthy and vibrant religion in the world. Either way atheism can
not work and believe me it was tried on albania because man needs a
tradition in which to believe and which to follow because man is not
the most important creature in the universe but a very insignificant
part of the universe. Atheism denies the existence of a higher power
than man. and that is an error of physics, just look at the universe,
you think man is the most important or powerfull? Off course not,
there are energies and stars millions of times more powerfull. at the
same time we can see that all things in the universe are
interconnected and the more we study it the more we realise that
tings move in a predetermined orbit. This is the destiny which we all
must follow. when i read the Quarn i found it very true and very
correct in the cosmological sense. I urge you to also read it with an
open mind. off course i will not let our differences interfere with
the fact that we are both albanians and we strive the best for our
people. and that i respect. I hope albanians are united and live in a
healthy society.
regards.
Cerciz Topulli
> I think Islam was forced upon a great deal of our people by our enemies. An
> ideal situation would be a return to our pagan roots for all Europeans, but
> that will never happen. In the mean time, I will fight against all organised
> religion.
>
> Edin>>>
I think that is a mistake. first Islam was not forced upon us as much
Cerciz Topulli
First of all Oscar, you act as a coward since you ask a question then
ran away from the answer. If you ask a question and want me to give
you an answer then why do you leave without hearing it? isnt that the
ultimate arrogance? second, That albanians are NOT slavs this is quite
obvious and has nothing to do with racism. its like saying the arabs
are jews, off course they are not, or the spanish are german. Do you
understand that these peoples represent different ethnicities as
deffined by different languages and so forth? Third, if you get a
hostile response from me it is in response to a hostile response from
you, you have said to me that i should watch what i say if i want to
keep my life or something like that. that is pretty ridiculous and i
take no threats from you or anyone else, if you wanna talk then talk
if not then stop talking. we have a saying in albania, "a bull is tied
by his horns, a man is tied by his words". and forth, as for Islam, i
assure you that you know nothing about it, and if you think that
buildings qualify as achievments then you got plenty of beautifull
architecture which could qualify as an achievement in the Islamic
civilization. For a complete list check the local tourist guides on
Jerusalem turkey saudi arabia etc. And as for women in Islam they are
not allwed to go to discos and sell their bodies, and also lead
catastrophic lifestyles like in the west. That is why the european
birthrate has gonne down,because of the decadent lifestyle of your
people. and that is why the islamic world will increase with Between
now and 2050, by three to four billion people as Europe will lose the
equivalent of the entire population of Germany, Poland, Denmark,
Norway, Sweden, and Finland. well who do you think the future belongs
to? to the decadents? or those who consider sexual behaviour as sacred
and to follow certain traditional rules as defined by the Quran? We
can obviously see who is in the right here.
vladimi...@gmail.com
Mira ese video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwVRTgtsvIE
Esto te va decir quien fue SkenderBeg, madre y padre de el, de Serbia, nombre.
Gracias