N.EPIRUS is Greek.
costas zissiadis
SNasto the fagget wrote in message
<19980307204...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>GREEKS SHOULD STAND BY ALBAINAS SIDE, IT'S BETTER TO HAVE THE ALBANIAN AS
>NEIGHBOURS THEN THE SERBS!!!!!!!!!!!
>THOSE WHO OPPOSE ALBANIA, WILL MEET THEIR DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
>RROFT SHQIPERIA
We will never stand by Albanian dogs! Albanians are trash who polute the
world. They are also known to be pathetic warriors and cowards. You have
been kicked in the ass countless of times by Greeks and Serbs. Albania
doesn't even deserve to be independent, and will soon be divided between
Greece and Serbia. We will get Northern Epirus which is inhabited by ethnic
Greeks and Serbs will get the north. The Albanian ugly eagle will be
replaced by the glorious Byzantine double headed Eagle.
FREEDOM FOR NORTHERN EPIRUS.
DEATH TO ALBANIAN SHITS!
Costas.
>
sp...@erols.com
Costas are you Clueless???!!!!
The Albanian Double Headed Eagle IS the Byzantine Eagle. It is taken form
the flag of George Kastriotis who was one of the few of the last of the
Byzantines who was NOT defeated by the Turks.
I can't believe you did not know this!!!!
And your racism!!!!! tach tach, like get some humanity!
Galina
costas zissiadis
sp...@erols.com wrote in message <3501C397...@erols.com>...
>costas zissiadis wrote:
>>
>> SNasto the fagget wrote in message
>> <19980307204...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>> >GREEKS SHOULD STAND BY ALBAINAS SIDE, IT'S BETTER TO HAVE THE ALBANIAN
AS
>> >NEIGHBOURS THEN THE SERBS!!!!!!!!!!!
>> >THOSE WHO OPPOSE ALBANIA, WILL MEET THEIR DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
>> >RROFT SHQIPERIA
>>
>> We will never stand by Albanian dogs! Albanians are trash who polute the
>> world. They are also known to be pathetic warriors and cowards. You have
>> been kicked in the ass countless of times by Greeks and Serbs. Albania
>> doesn't even deserve to be independent, and will soon be divided between
>> Greece and Serbia. We will get Northern Epirus which is inhabited by
ethnic
>> Greeks and Serbs will get the north. The Albanian ugly eagle will be
>> replaced by the glorious Byzantine double headed Eagle.
>>
>> FREEDOM FOR NORTHERN EPIRUS.
>>
>> DEATH TO ALBANIAN SHITS!
>>
>> Costas.
>> >
>
>Costas are you Clueless???!!!!
Who is clueless you horny Gypsy?
>
>The Albanian Double Headed Eagle IS the Byzantine Eagle. It is taken form
>the flag of George Kastriotis who was one of the few of the last of the
>Byzantines who was NOT defeated by the Turks.
The Albanian eagle is a bad copy of the Byzantine Eagle. Giorgios Kastriotis
(half Greek half Serb) was the ruler of Illyria and fought a succesful
campaign against the Turks for more than twenty years. So there is no need
to give me history lessons. OK? Get an education first (try not to sleep
with all your professors) and then come and lecture me.
>
>I can't believe you did not know this!!!!
Haa Haa Haa Haaa. Crawl back to your hole Galina.
>
>And your racism!!!!! tach tach, like get some humanity!
You are in no position to criticize me. You better start leaking the sweat
of my balls and then I will give you permission to answer back.
>
>Galina
Kavlina.
Kreshnik Bejko
costas zissiadis wrote in message ...
>
>We will never stand by Albanian dogs! Albanians are trash who polute the
>world. They are also known to be pathetic warriors and cowards. You have
>been kicked in the ass countless of times by Greeks and Serbs. Albania
>doesn't even deserve to be independent, and will soon be divided between
>Greece and Serbia. We will get Northern Epirus which is inhabited by ethnic
>Greeks and Serbs will get the north. The Albanian ugly eagle will be
>replaced by the glorious Byzantine double headed Eagle.
>
> FREEDOM FOR NORTHERN EPIRUS.
>
> DEATH TO ALBANIAN SHITS!
>
>Costas.
Remember Fallermeyer u deep shit! There's a good chance you're my
conpatriot!
Fallermayer said
"The Greeks are a COCKtail of different bloods the major part of which is
ALBANIAN"
What language did Koulndoriotes speak? A. Arvanitika. What language did
Bocari speak? Albanian.
What language did Kolokotrones speak? Arvanitika! HOW DOES A 20TH CENTURY
ALBANIAN LIKE ME KNOWS THIS. A. Simply by reading Arthur C.Clarke, Lord
Byron, Col.Leake and countless other who have testified to the greatness of
the Albanian race. Yes race! when talking about Albanias independence many
foreign dignitaries admitted and TALKED about "an ALBANIAN RACE". Read the
work of your Ex PM Pipinelis and weep oh you of Albanian blood gone bad!
EVEN NOSTRDAMUS PREDICTED THAT EUROPE WOULD BE SHOCKED WHEN ALBANIAN FORCES
WOULD STORM ATHENS!
>>
>
>
Kreshnik Bejko
Alright! I screwed up! The below does not mean I am racist or smth! Though
the info. I gave is pretty
much true I still am for good neighbourly relations with other fellow
HUMANS, be they greeks or serbs.
This Costas dude pissed me off so.... i blew off some steam
Again sorry if I offended anyone (except Costas. The MOFO deserves to be
offended)
Sincerely
Kreshnik Bejko
Kreshnik Bejko wrote in message
<6dt5cm$5cne$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
costas zissiadis
Kreshnik Bejko wrote in message
<6dt5cm$5cne$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>Remember Fallermeyer u deep shit! There's a good chance you're my
>conpatriot!
I doubt it. Unless you have Greek blood ofcourse.
>Fallermayer said
>"The Greeks are a COCKtail of different bloods the major part of which is
>ALBANIAN"
Cocktail? Like Bloody Mary? Hmm.. I have never heard or drunk this Albanian
cocktail. Is it good? My favorite is long island ice tea. What' yours?
>What language did Koulndoriotes speak? A. Arvanitika.
That's right he spoke Arvanitika. He was from Hydra, most people from Hydra
speak Arvanitika. Tell me something I don't know.
>What language did
>Bocari speak? Albanian.
No. Botsaris also spoke Arvnitika. Souliotes like him were blingual. They
spoke both Greek and Arvanitika.
>What language did Kolokotrones speak? Arvanitika!
This is wrong! Kolokotronis was a Greek speaker.
HOW DOES A 20TH CENTURY
>ALBANIAN LIKE ME KNOWS THIS. A. Simply by reading Arthur C.Clarke, Lord
>Byron, Col.Leake and countless other who have testified to the greatness
I am surprised! An Albanian can actually read! Even speak English. Wow! I am
impressed.
>the Albanian race. Yes race!
Why are you getting so defensive kid? Albanian is a race. A shitty one, but
still a race. Actually it is an artificial race. Albanians are either Gegs
or Tosks. There are two subgroups of the Albanian race.
>when talking about Albanias independence many
>foreign dignitaries admitted and TALKED about "an ALBANIAN RACE".
Whatever you say kid. I never claimed the opposite.
>Read the
>work of your Ex PM Pipinelis and weep oh you of Albanian blood gone bad!
We have no Albanian blood. We are distinct peoples. Got it?
>
>EVEN NOSTRDAMUS PREDICTED THAT EUROPE WOULD BE SHOCKED WHEN ALBANIAN FORCES
>WOULD STORM ATHENS!
He was close. Albanian refugees stormed Athens and are now working as slaves
and prostitutes to serve their Greek masters. What are you? A slave or a
prostitute? I guess both. It is people like you who have sucked every
fagget's dick just to make a living. Some race! Where is your pride?
Probably you swollowed it.
Costas.
cika
costas zissiadis wrote in message
<#WcREelS...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>...
>
>>EVEN NOSTRDAMUS PREDICTED THAT EUROPE WOULD BE SHOCKED WHEN ALBANIAN
FORCES
>>WOULD STORM ATHENS!
>
>He was close. Albanian refugees stormed Athens and are now working as
slaves
>and prostitutes to serve their Greek masters. What are you? A slave or a
>prostitute? I guess both. It is people like you who have sucked every
>fagget's dick just to make a living. Some race! Where is your pride?
>Probably you swollowed it.
>
>Costas.
>
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
ahhh... good one costas!!! excellent come-back hehehehe.
"STORM ATHENS", indeed!!! they can't even keep their own house in
order!!
>
>
Athanasios A. Stathopoulos
> EVEN NOSTRDAMUS PREDICTED THAT EUROPE WOULD BE SHOCKED WHEN ALBANIAN FORCES
> WOULD STORM ATHENS!
>
> >>
> >
> >
Hahaha, with what? Their airforce? HAHHAHAHA! Their army? Even worse. With
what? The only thing they have stomed us with is hundreds of hungry and pathetic
individuals looking for work and food. Such a storm.
--
Thanos Stathopoulos
mailto:ast...@cc.ece.ntua.gr
P.S. Oh, Nostradamus also predicted WW3 in 1997, the beginning of which would
come from an Arab nation. I didnt see that happen. After all, how strong can an
argument that brings Nostradamus into play be.
See you in Omonoia albanian worker.
Rico
It is a waste to spend time and energy on people like you, we should all
IGNORE you, but
> >Fallermayer said
> >"The Greeks are a COCKtail of different bloods the major part of
> which is
> >ALBANIAN"
It is true! Even my Greek friends from Thessaloniki, not so frustrated
as you are, acknowledged this.
Rico
Rico
Kreshnik Bejko wrote:
>
> Alright! I screwed up! The below does not mean I am racist or smth!
> Though
> the info. I gave is pretty
> much true I still am for good neighbourly relations with other fellow
> HUMANS, be they greeks or serbs.
> This Costas dude pissed me off so.... i blew off some steam
>
> Again sorry if I offended anyone (except Costas. The MOFO deserves to
> be
> offended)
>
> Sincerely
> Kreshnik Bejko
I fully agree with you and I know how it feels...
Rico
Paraskevas Achilleas Platis
Kreshnik Bejko <KBE...@prodigy.net> wrote in article
<6dt5cm$5cne$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
> costas zissiadis wrote in message ...
>
>
> >
> >We will never stand by Albanian dogs! Albanians are trash who polute the
> >world. They are also known to be pathetic warriors and cowards. You have
> >been kicked in the ass countless of times by Greeks and Serbs. Albania
> >doesn't even deserve to be independent, and will soon be divided between
> >Greece and Serbia. We will get Northern Epirus which is inhabited by
ethnic
> >Greeks and Serbs will get the north. The Albanian ugly eagle will be
> >replaced by the glorious Byzantine double headed Eagle.
> >
> > FREEDOM FOR NORTHERN EPIRUS.
> >
> > DEATH TO ALBANIAN SHITS!
> >
> >Costas.
>
>
>
> Remember Fallermeyer u deep shit! There's a good chance you're my
> conpatriot!
> Fallermayer said
> "The Greeks are a COCKtail of different bloods the major part of which is
> ALBANIAN"
>
> What language did Koulndoriotes speak? A. Arvanitika. What language did
> Bocari speak? Albanian.
> What language did Kolokotrones speak? Arvanitika! HOW DOES A 20TH CENTURY
> ALBANIAN LIKE ME KNOWS THIS. A. Simply by reading Arthur C.Clarke, Lord
> Byron, Col.Leake and countless other who have testified to the greatness
of
> the Albanian race. Yes race! when talking about Albanias independence
many
> foreign dignitaries admitted and TALKED about "an ALBANIAN RACE". Read
the
> work of your Ex PM Pipinelis and weep oh you of Albanian blood gone bad!
>
> EVEN NOSTRDAMUS PREDICTED THAT EUROPE WOULD BE SHOCKED WHEN ALBANIAN
FORCES
> WOULD STORM ATHENS!
>
>
>
I have the entire book on Nostradamus' predictions , there is
not one sentence in this book of several thousand predictions which
mentions anything about Albanian military success, or prowess. There is
hardly anything about Albania at all.
Paraskevas
>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
Kreshnik Bejko
costas zissiadis wrote in message
<#WcREelS...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>...
>
>Kreshnik Bejko wrote in message
><6dt5cm$5cne$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>>
>>Remember Fallermeyer u deep shit! There's a good chance you're my
>>conpatriot!
>
>I doubt it. Unless you have Greek blood ofcourse.
Greek blood Albanian blood whats the difference? I told u Albanians and
Greeks related. We share an Albanian bond. And by the way, Arvanitika means
"albanian" in the language your people spoke 200 years ago. Now allow me to
elaborate. Have fun brother. Love ya! Bye bye.
A VOYAGE FROM THE HISTORICAL EPIRUS TO THE POLITICAL "NORTHERN
EPIRUS". A bird’s eye view of a murderous intrigue.
By Pellumb Xhufi
Translated by Kreshnik Bejko
Copyright 1997.
The results of a Greek poll conducted in 1992 showed that the majority of
those interviewed considered as the number one problem of the Hellenic
affairs, the so called "Vorio (North) Epirus" issue. Today, this outcome
surprises nobody but 5 years ago it was an unexpected bad omen, which
spoiled the still infant Albanian-Greek romance, which had brought the end
to the bitter cold relationship the two countries had ever since 1912.
However these past 5 years have indicated that the "Vorio Epirus" issue, or
the Greek territorial claims on Albania, is going to condition the
Albanian-Greek relations for as long as it is in the work agendas of every
Greek govt., such as that of Papandreus(1) in 1960, or that of Mitsotakis
(2) three years ago. Unfortunately things are not likely to be changing in
the near future, and the reason for this is that, it has been over two
centuries that the Greek politics is run by the same people, who belong to
the same political persuasion, and who know only one policy; that of the
"Megali Idea" (the Great Idea).
What we as Albanians should be more worried about is that in view of the
aforementioned poll, the "North Epirus" issue apparently seems to be the
concern
not only of the Greek political caste. Through an obsessive propaganda
coordinated between the state, the church, the educational system, and the
media, the "Vorio Epirus" issue has deeply penetrated the Greek psyche,
making it one of the main carachterisitcs of an afflicted national
consciousness.
It is a fact that the majority of Greeks today sincerely believe that the
Greek right on "Vorio Epirus (this is an idea cooked in the Greek diplomatic
halls in 1913), is an ancient historical right of "hellenism". They believe
this much in the same way they believe that the "buzuki", a musical
instrument invented by an Athenian instrumentalist in the 20-th century, is
the magical instrument that Orfeus himself had mastered centuries ago.
However in "North Epirus’" case the antedescants of Herdotous make a mistake
not permissible to those who claim to come from the father of history. They
make an historical mistake. The truth is that Vorio Epirus is part of the
political program of the "Megali Idea", whose goal is the identification of
Greece with the Byzantine Empire,
and the creation of a Greeceland of Byzantine proportions(3). The
transformation of this
policy into a "sacred goal" of universal Greek politics, caused the endless
Greek territorial expansion, a thing which the German historian and
helenonologist J.P.Fallemeyer tried to explain to his contemporaries
sometime during the middle of the last century.
"Today" he said "Greece wants Thessaly. Try to give it to her. Tomorrow it
is going to ask for Epirus, the day after tomorrow she will ask for
Macedonia, and the next day it will want Thracia. Even if you gave her
Instambul, she’s going to endlessly make other requests for as long as
Europe is not cured of its infantile weaknesses." (4).
It was the Greek historian Constantine Sathos who superseded Fallemeyer in
showing how absurd and anti-historical it is to try to identify Greece with
the Byzantine Empire for contemporary political purposes. He said: "We want
to do such a thing without looking as foolish as that historian, Eforus from
Cimbrosi, who thought that his little town was the entire world" (5).
In 1913, during the Paris peace conference, the Greek prime minister,
Eleuther Venizellos, found himself in an embarrassing position, when a
member of the Commission of the Ten, charged with considering the Greek
claims on Northern Epirus asked the following question: "Mr. Prime Minister,
may I ask what language does the population of these areas which you
consider Greek, speak?"(6). Up to that point Venizellos had bombarded the
Commission, with countless data showing the overwhelming Orthodox majority
in these areas, showing how many schools and churches had existed ever since
the time of Homer(!), with memorandums from the "vorio-epirotic" communities
(of course the memorandums were forged by the Greek Ministry of Foreign
Affairs). All this was aimed at showing the "crystal clear" Greek
consciousnes of the North Epirus population. Forty years before the Paris
Peace Conference, in 1878, Greece had treed to gobble up Epirus using these
very same arguments, yet neglecting the argument of the arguments: the
ethnic makeup of the disputed regions.
Had the ethnological principle of territorial division been applied, it
would have been a major loss for the Greek cause, for then the Greeks would
not have gotten a singe inch square of Epirus(Lower Albania). The authors
of antiquity had often made mention of the 13 tribes of Epirus, deemed as
"barbarous" by the Greeks themselves. These tribes encompassed a territory
stretching all the way down to Ambrakia’s Gulf, along the border of
Akarnania.
"Hellas begins with Akarnania, because Akarnania is where the border with
the Epirotic tribes lies" says Strabo (7).
"After Molossia comes Ambrakia, an hellenic city. This is where Hellas
begins, and it stretches uninterruptedly all the way to river Peneus"
confirms Pseudo-Skylax (8).
Even for the historians of the Middle Ages the Greek borders were quite
clear.
"The true Greece lies south of the Pindus mountains" reports Pahimenius in
the XIII-th
century(9). His statement is confirmed also by a contemporary Byzantine
historian, Akropolitus(10) .
"North of Pindus starts the barbarophonus area" states the bishop of
Grebenea, Jorgos Bardhanes, who would later add that the city of Vonitsa
would be the first city where a traveler from the north would hear Greek
spoken.(11).
An author from the XV century is even more explicit when he states:
"Epirus in the ancient times was inhabited by the Illyrians who were very
brave people. Even today it is inhabited by the Albanians, an Illyrian
tribe"(12). This fact is also confirmed by the Ottomans censuses conducted
after the invasion of Epirus during the
XVI-XVII centuries (13).
The conviction that Epirus was inhabited by Albanians was undisputed among
many Middle Age scholars, who never neglected to stress that the term Epirus
referred to Albania [Epirus sive Albania](14), and the term Epirote
referred to Albanians [Epirtoae qui Albani appellati] (15). Later authors
did not use this retrospective terminology, but referred to Epirus as "Lower
Albania" until the day South Epirus was annexed by Greece in 1913. (16).
History makes Albanians the only protagonists of ancient Epirus’ history.
It was the Albanians who in alliance with the Normans, revolted against the
Byzantines in 1185 (17), and who fought against the Venetians in 1204. It
was the Albanians of Chameria and of other Lower Albania regions who, under
the leadership of nobles such as the Bues, the Zenebishtis, the Shpatas, the
Mazrekus, the Muzakajs, the Loshajs etc, fought against the Byzantines, the
Serbs, the Anjouins, and the Osmanli Turks, during the XIV and XV centuries.
It was the Albanian courage in war that inspired freedom revolts against the
Turks from Himara to Preveze, from Janina (Ioanina) to Prague. One of the
most important of these revolts was the one that was crowned with the
capture of Janina by Christian Albanians, lead under the brave leadership of
their bishop of Paramithia, Dionysius (20).
Thus, finding it extremely difficult to base its territorial claims on
history, Greece played the archaeological card in the Berlin Congress. This
new plot, which became a sweeping victory, was orchestrated by the
Greek-vlach merchant from Arta, K.Karapanos, a man made rich "per fas et
nefas" (in honest and dishonest ways) as the vice-consul of France in
Janina, Moreau, liked to put it.(21). During his several year stay in Paris,
Karapanos became friends with lord Eddington, and Leon Gambetta, who’d later
become the mavericks of French politics. Being aware of his newfound friends
’ passion for archaeology, Karapanos immediately turns back to Epirus and
starts excavations at the Pelasgic temple site of Dodona. In 1877, at the
eve of the Berlin Congress Karapanos chaotically reports his "finds" to the
French Academy of Sciences, members of whom were of course Eddington and
Gambetta(22). The goal of his impromptu speech (Moreau would latter call
Karapanos "a charlatan" for delivering it) was not the scientific approach
to his finds, but rather the convincing of the audience, a part of whom was
some politicians, of the helenic heritage of Epirus.
We do not know for sure weather Eddingtonm and Gambetta were impressed by
the unprofessional work of Karapanos, or by the many antiques from Dodona
which were given to them. We do know however, that lord Eddington as Prime
Minister, and Minister of Foreign Affairs of France, and Gambetta as the
chairman of the French parliament, during the days of Berlin Congress
aggressively defended the Greek claims. From Paris where he’d gone with
three emissaries of the Greek Patriarchate, Karapanos assured Athens that
it had Eddington’s full support.(26) During those days one could find
Eddington’s and Gambetta’s portraits on the walls of the most crummy bars
in rural Athens(25).
It was Eddington who proposed to the Berlin Congress, the so called
Protocol 13, which had to do with the Greek territorial claims on Epirus and
Thessaly(27). It is not difficult to understand that the arguments Eddington
offered in support of the Greek cause were the same as Karapanos’. Besides
briefing Eddington on his archaeological finds, Karapanos had handed over to
Eddington a "report" on Albanians, where it was said that the Albanians are
mix half Slavic and half Greek, without a national consciousness, and thus
they did not even deserve to be considered in the international transactions
about to happen.
However Karapanos, did no neglect to express his deep concern with the
possibility of Albanian discontent (especially the muslim Albanian) if
Epirus was annexed to Greece.
Cunningly he tried to lure the Great Powers to actively take part during the
annexation process, so that it could be free of incidents. To this end
Karapanos tried to use the Powers’ consuls in Janina and Arta, and most
importantly dispatched a squadron of ships
to Preveze to prevent the Albanians from violently resisting the
annexation(28).
As usual Eddington tried to push for the Greek request for intervention,
thus causing discontent to lord Beaconsfield of the British Empire, who
reminded his French colleague that Protocol 13 only recommended to the
Turkish Empire to fix the border disputes with Greece, and it did not
provide for the West’s intervention.(29)
These facts mentioned above are important because they show how the foreign
policy of the Great Powers, operated based on false reports masterminded by
the small Balkan intrigants. Years after the Berlin Congress, the French
prime minister Clemenceau, and his British counterpart Lloyd George would
learn about Albania through maps drawn by Venizellos(30).
Though the Greek territorial claims on Epirus (Lower Albania) and Norther
Epirus in particular, found massive support from the leaders of the European
politics, they did not score high on the reports of consuls, researchers,
and military advisers who were actually working on the field, and who were
well-acquainted with ethno-political situation of Epirus. Their reports and
observations were diametrically opposed to those of the likes of Karapanos
and Venizellos. This explains why in some cases, the fierce allies of
"hellenism", such as Eddington and Gambetta, and even more so Bismarck and
lord Beaconsfield in 1878, or even Clemenceau and Loyd George in 1919, would
call on the Greeks to restrain their insatiable expansionist appetite (32),
because they saw the inherent dangers that came with annexing to Greece
ethnic Albanian lands.
In the 19-th century when the infant Greek state was plotting the annexation
of Lower Albania, in the Greek kingdom resided such a great number of
Albanians that some authors would report the existence of an ethnic Albania
within Greece [l’Albanie de la Greece] (33). It was during this same time
that the German historian, Fallemeyer, scientifically investigated the true
proportion of the Albanian population in Greece, coming to the brutally
sincere conclussion (which left deep scars in the Greek national pride)
that:
"In the modern Greeks’ veins does not flow the blood of ancient Greeks, but
rather a cocktail of different bloods, the major part of which is Albanian."
(34)
Such a declaration which made Fallemeyer the number one enemy of Greece,
caused a severe identity crisis, which in one way or another, even today
haunts the Greek national consciousness. (this has come to be known as the
Fallermeyer complex)
Kreshnik Bejko
>
>P.S. Oh, Nostradamus also predicted WW3 in 1997, the beginning of which
would
>come from an Arab nation. I didnt see that happen. After all, how strong
can an
>argument that brings Nostradamus into play be.
> See you in Omonoia albanian worker.
I just said that to piss some of you off. In any case when we secure Kosovo
a few of our highlanders
could slaughter all your palikares(if u knew what palikares means in
Albanian!:)
Love ya all
Kreshnik the Albanian
>
>
Maria Siska
On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, Kreshnik Bejko wrote:
>
>
> Greek blood Albanian blood whats the difference? I told u Albanians and
> Greeks related. We share an Albanian bond. And by the way, Arvanitika means
> "albanian" in the language your people spoke 200 years ago. Now allow me to
> elaborate. Have fun brother. Love ya! Bye bye.
Arvanitika was a dialect spoken in Epirus, a hellenic part. Some people
there still use some words of that dialect in their everyday
conversations.
In no way is Arvanitika the same thing with Albanian language. It was
spoken in Epirus from those that moved from N. Epirus, who were Hellenes
but had a different dialect from those already living in Epirus. It is
that simple.
Next thing I expect is the Italians claiming that the Hellenes living in
Ionian islands are Italian just because their dialect contains some
rephrased italian words. DUH!
Regards,
Maria
Paraskevas Achilleas Platis
Rico <ric...@eunet.yu> wrote in article <3502C0EE...@eunet.yu>...
> It is a waste to spend time and energy on people like you, we should all
> IGNORE you, but
>
> > >Fallermayer said
> > >"The Greeks are a COCKtail of different bloods the major part of
> > which is
> > >ALBANIAN"
>
> It is true! Even my Greek friends from Thessaloniki, not so frustrated
> as you are, acknowledged this.
>
> Rico
>
Rico,
"COCKtail of different bloods" is something
that you are probably all too familiar with .
Paraskevas
net...@hotmail.com
> Haa Haa Haa Haaa. Crawl back to your hole Galina.
> >
> >And your racism!!!!! tach tach, like get some humanity!
>
> You are in no position to criticize me. You better start leaking the sweat
> of my balls and then I will give you permission to answer back.
> >
> >Galina
> Kavlina.
Costa,
Why are you making enemies of everyone?
The albanians are hurting and you are kicking them when the're down.
They are in no position to threaten Greece or anyone else.
If you are going to concentrate on our real enemy, then you should be
attacking the turks.
That is the real territory we should be concentrating on getting back.
N. epirus is full of rocks and stones. if greece really wanted it we
could have had it a long time ago.
Net
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Kreshnik Bejko
Maria Siska wrote in message ...
>In no way is Arvanitika the same thing with Albanian language.
Well geez! It's a miracle I tell ya! I know Greek! Whoo ooh! Happy happy me!
(the author has talked to some arvanite old women. What they speak is an
archaic form
of Albanian similar to the language the Albanians in southern Italy speak.
This was confirmed
by ex-emigrants who worked in the arvanite villages of Beotia and who live
now where the author lives.
Albanian and Greek languages are worlds apart so theres no connection
whatsoever between both languages. Arvanitika as the word itself suggests,
its a dialekt of Albanitika. I mean why else would u call that alleged
dialect arvanitika anyways? )
P.S Albanian is one of the 8 original indo european languages. Greek is also
one of these 8. Albanian belongs on a group by itself. It doesnt derive from
any language and no other language derives from it. Thus Albanian or
Arvanitika CANNOT be a dialect of an unrelated language such as Greek.
Read what the Ethnographic Database has about Arvanitika
ALBANIAN, ARVANITIKA (ARVANITIKA, ARVANITIC) [AAT] 50,000 (Newmark) to
140,000 possible speakers(1977 Trudgill and Tzavaras). Attica (Attiki),
Bocotia (Viotia), southern Euboea (Evia), and the island of Salamis
(Salamina); Epirus region and Athens. Mainly rural. Indo-European, Albanian,
Tosk. Arvanitika is partially intelligible with Tosk. Speakers are called
'Arvanites'. The language is heavily influenced by Greek. Spoken by older
people. Young people are migrating to Athens and assimilating as Greeks.
Christian. NT 1827.(taken from: Gopher Greece
for more info visit: www.geocities.com/Athens/3629/
Yours TRULY
Me
costas zissiadis
Kreshnik Bejko wrote in message
<6dv5d3$2d8g$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Nobody claims that Arvanitika, that is spoken in Attica, Boiotia and some
islands, doesn't relate with the Tosk dialect. Arvanitika is a mixture of
Greek and Tosk. It is mainly spoken by elder people, the number of Arvanite
speakers in both Italy and Greece declines so fast that it is expected by
the next decade nobody will speak it anymore.
The origins of Arvanit speakers of Greece go back to the 14th century when
Byzantine emperor Katakouzinos settled ethnic Greeks who spoke the Arvanit
language from Epirus to Central Greece. The Greek Northern Epirots spoke
Arvanitika because they traded mostly with Albanians (Tosks) in their region
and adapted a version of their language without ofcourse forgetting their
own native Greek. There is NO DOUBT that today's Arvanites are pure Greeks
and are known for their Greek Nationalist sentiments. Knowing many Arvanites
myself I KNOW FOR A FACT that they get insulted if one refers to them as
Albanians. The only ethnic Albanians that lived in Greece were the Chamates
(Muslim Tosks) who lived in Chameria (modern day Thesprotia). After WW2 they
all migrated voluntarily to Albania fearing reprisals from the local Greeks.
Today there are NO ALBANIANS living in Greece.
Costas.
TRABOINI
Zito Elevteria!
Tha pane sto djalo oli shovenistes!
Zito Thanasi Vengas!
Stathopulos tha paj stin aera mazi me tin Nostradamos tu.
Ade more Tanasi parte ta opla su qe vale piso su.
Kanena dhen theli polemo re vlakas! O filos su Milloshevic
ine alitis, eqi skotosi gjinekes qe pedhia more Atanasi.Pedhia!!!
Alvanos Arvaniti
Athanasios A. Stathopoulos wrote:
>
> > EVEN NOSTRDAMUS PREDICTED THAT EUROPE WOULD BE SHOCKED WHEN ALBANIAN FORCES
> > WOULD STORM ATHENS!
> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
>
> Hahaha, with what? Their airforce? HAHHAHAHA! Their army? Even worse. With
> what? The only thing they have stomed us with is hundreds of hungry and pathetic
> individuals looking for work and food. Such a storm.
>
> --
> Thanos Stathopoulos
> mailto:ast...@cc.ece.ntua.gr
>
TRABOINI
North Epiros eshte nje MUT qe te hani kelysha bushtrash
shoveniste!
TRABOINI
costas zissiadis wrote:
>
> SNasto the fagget wrote in message
> <19980307204...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> >GREEKS SHOULD STAND BY ALBAINAS SIDE, IT'S BETTER TO HAVE THE ALBANIAN AS
> >NEIGHBOURS THEN THE SERBS!!!!!!!!!!!
> >THOSE WHO OPPOSE ALBANIA, WILL MEET THEIR DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
> >RROFT SHQIPERIA
>
> world. They are also known to be pathetic warriors and cowards. You have
> been kicked in the ass countless of times by Greeks and Serbs. Albania
> doesn't even deserve to be independent, and will soon be divided between
> Greece and Serbia. We will get Northern Epirus which is inhabited by ethnic
> Greeks and Serbs will get the north. The Albanian ugly eagle will be
> replaced by the glorious Byzantine double headed Eagle.
>
> FREEDOM FOR NORTHERN EPIRUS.
>
> DEATH TO ALBANIAN SHITS!
>
> Costas.
Kostaki - re pushti kathemera me shovenistiki idea.
Gamisu re vlaka! Dhen eqis ali dhula re vromokollo ?!
TRABOINI
Greek language:
Pu kseris esi apo tin historia re vromokollo!
Les oti Gergj Kastrioti ine miso elinas qe miso servos.
Pige qe rotiste tin mana su mipus ise qe esi miso servos qe miso
alvano?!
Vromiari! Shovenisti! Gamisu me tin afton o malakas Kapsalis
pios grapsi tetjo vlakies stin efimeridha STOHOS!
Ade re Kosta ade! Kalo Pedhi pu ise...
________________________________________________
Albanian Language:
Ku merr vesh ti nga historia more bythpalare!
Thua se Gjergj kastrioti eshte gjysem grek e gjysem serb.
Shko re pyet nenen tende mos ndoshta dhe ti je gjysem serb e
gjysem shqiptar?
Pisanjoz! Shovenist! Shko e ....me ate debilin Kapsalis qe shkruan
te tilla budallalleqe ne gazetes fashiste STOHOS !
Ajde more Kosta, hajde! C djale per te qene qe je!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
zissiadis wrote:
>
> sp...@erols.com wrote in message <3501C397...@erols.com>...
> >costas zissiadis wrote:
> >>
> >> SNasto the fagget wrote in message
> >> <19980307204...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> >> >GREEKS SHOULD STAND BY ALBAINAS SIDE, IT'S BETTER TO HAVE THE ALBANIAN
> AS
> >> >NEIGHBOURS THEN THE SERBS!!!!!!!!!!!
> >> >THOSE WHO OPPOSE ALBANIA, WILL MEET THEIR DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
> >> >RROFT SHQIPERIA
> >>
> >> We will never stand by Albanian dogs! Albanians are trash who polute the
> >> world. They are also known to be pathetic warriors and cowards. You have
> >> been kicked in the ass countless of times by Greeks and Serbs. Albania
> >> doesn't even deserve to be independent, and will soon be divided between
> >> Greece and Serbia. We will get Northern Epirus which is inhabited by
> ethnic
> >> Greeks and Serbs will get the north. The Albanian ugly eagle will be
> >> replaced by the glorious Byzantine double headed Eagle.
> >>
> >> FREEDOM FOR NORTHERN EPIRUS.
> >>
> >> DEATH TO ALBANIAN SHITS!
> >>
> >> Costas.
> >> >
> >
> >Costas are you Clueless???!!!!
>
> Who is clueless you horny Gypsy?
> >
> >The Albanian Double Headed Eagle IS the Byzantine Eagle. It is taken form
> >the flag of George Kastriotis who was one of the few of the last of the
> >Byzantines who was NOT defeated by the Turks.
>
> The Albanian eagle is a bad copy of the Byzantine Eagle. Giorgios Kastriotis
> (half Greek half Serb) was the ruler of Illyria and fought a succesful
> campaign against the Turks for more than twenty years. So there is no need
> to give me history lessons. OK? Get an education first (try not to sleep
> with all your professors) and then come and lecture me.
> >
> >I can't believe you did not know this!!!!
>
TRABOINI
costas zissiadis wrote:
>
> Kreshnik Bejko wrote in message
> >
> >Remember Fallermeyer u deep shit! There's a good chance you're my
> >conpatriot!
>
> I doubt it. Unless you have Greek blood ofcourse.
>
> >"The Greeks are a COCKtail of different bloods the major part of which is
> >ALBANIAN"
>
> cocktail. Is it good? My favorite is long island ice tea. What' yours?
>
>
> speak Arvanitika. Tell me something I don't know.
>
> >Bocari speak? Albanian.
>
> spoke both Greek and Arvanitika.
>
>
>
> >ALBANIAN LIKE ME KNOWS THIS. A. Simply by reading Arthur C.Clarke, Lord
> >Byron, Col.Leake and countless other who have testified to the greatness
>
> impressed.
>
>
> still a race. Actually it is an artificial race. Albanians are either Gegs
> or Tosks. There are two subgroups of the Albanian race.
>
> >foreign dignitaries admitted and TALKED about "an ALBANIAN RACE".
>
>
> >work of your Ex PM Pipinelis and weep oh you of Albanian blood gone bad!
>
> >
> >WOULD STORM ATHENS!
>
> and prostitutes to serve their Greek masters. What are you? A slave or a
> prostitute? I guess both. It is people like you who have sucked every
> fagget's dick just to make a living. Some race! Where is your pride?
> Probably you swollowed it.
>
> Costas.
Kliste stoma su re Vromokollo! Qe esi ise alvanos more vlaka, more
adhelfe...Kanis san putanes stin Omonia re gajdhuri!
Alvanos Arvaniti
TRABOINI
costas zissiadis wrote:
>
> Kreshnik Bejko wrote in message
Pu kseris toso kala pios ine arvanitas e pios gege more Ziso!
Ege perasa ola ta nisia qe milisa me polus arvanitis kathara alvanitika,
qe ime gege o pios les esi!
Stanata me vlakijes qe prepi na les tin alithia.
To kseris ti eqi pi Giorgios Karaiskaqis stin televtea stigmi pu ton
skotosane " Me vrane" ipe alvanitika "Mu skotosane".
Akoma esi me shovenistiki idea? Dhen kseris o antrope o ti papus ton
afton Pagalos ( startigo pangalos) eqi grapsi se mia efimerisha oti
"eho alavnitiki hema". Ti mu les tora. paramithia?
Afti periodiko eho tora ston qeri mu qe an thelis tha su grapso
olakliro afti arthro!
Re Kostaqi stamata me vlakijes!
Alvanos Arvaniti
kbe...@ptloma.edu
In article <OaKtgOu...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
"costas zissiadis" <phala...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
>
> Nobody claims that Arvanitika, that is spoken in Attica, Boiotia and some
> islands, doesn't relate with the Tosk dialect.
It is not a matter of relation. Tosk dialect is a dialect of the Albanian
language. Arvanitika is a variation of the Tosk dialect of the Albanian
language.
Arvanitika is a mixture of
> Greek and Tosk.
^^^^^
I'd appreciate it if you used Albanian instead of Tosk. Tosk is spoken by most
Albanians today since it is the basis for the Unified Albanian Language.
It is mainly spoken by elder people, the number of Arvanite
> speakers in both Italy and Greece declines so fast that it is expected by
> the next decade nobody will speak it anymore.
Too bad!
> The origins of Arvanit speakers of Greece go back to the 14th century when
> Byzantine emperor Katakouzinos settled ethnic Greeks who spoke the Arvanit
> language from Epirus to Central Greece. The Greek Northern Epirots spoke
> Arvanitika because they traded mostly with Albanians (Tosks) in their region
> and adapted a version of their language without ofcourse forgetting their
> own native Greek.
Absolutely not true! Their native language was Arvanitika which a dialect of
the Albanian language. Phyrrus Ruche has written a book on the Folk Songs of
south Albanians (of course claiming as you do that they are greeks), and the
song of the Suliotes were written in a cruip Albanian. Even I couldnd beleive
my eyes when I read them. Of course the songs were full of contempt for "the
muslim Albanians" who as you know were their sworn foe.
There is NO DOUBT that today's Arvanites are pure Greeks
> and are known for their Greek Nationalist sentiments. Knowing many Arvanites
> myself I KNOW FOR A FACT that they get insulted if one refers to them as
> Albanians.
Thats because they misteakenly take identify us with Muslim oppression.
Muslims Albanians should not be identified with the Turks.
The only ethnic Albanians that lived in Greece were the Chamates
> (Muslim Tosks) who lived in Chameria (modern day Thesprotia). After WW2 they
> all migrated voluntarily to Albania fearing reprisals from the local Greeks.
^^^^^^^^^^^
It always amazes how leasurly the Greeks disseminte such unscrupulous lies.
The Chams were forced to flee for their lifes. A greek named Dimitri
Deliolanes or smth wrote in an article published in the Italian newspaper
LIMAS
"in Septmeber 1944, the
filo-monarchical partisans of Edes started a violent offensive against the
collaborationist Muslims, resulting in actual slaughter."
> Today there are NO ALBANIANS living in Greece.
I thought we had "invaded" you?:)
>
> Costas.
costas zissiadis
kbe...@ptloma.edu wrote in message <6e1pmj$8ft$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <OaKtgOu...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
> "costas zissiadis" <phala...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>>
>
>> >
>>
>>
>> Nobody claims that Arvanitika, that is spoken in Attica, Boiotia and some
>> islands, doesn't relate with the Tosk dialect.
>
>It is not a matter of relation. Tosk dialect is a dialect of the Albanian
>language.
Tosk is the official language of Albania. Though Geg is the language of the
Kossovars and the Albanians of FYROM. So yes, Tosk is a subgroup of the
Albanian language and a subgroup of your race. Tosks have somewhat different
racial characteristics from their Geg cousins. Both groups hate each other
to death, since many Tosks are Orthodox and most Gegs are either Muslims
(Sunnis and Beshaktis) or Roman Catholics.
>Arvanitika is a variation of the Tosk dialect of the Albanian
>language.
Not quite. Arvanitika is a mixture of Greek and Tosk as I mentioned earlier.
It is difficult for an Arvanit-speaker to understand a Tosk and impossible
to understand a Geg. All Arvanits are fluent in Greek.
>> Arvanitika is a mixture of
>> Greek and Tosk.
> ^^^^^
>I'd appreciate it if you used Albanian instead of Tosk.
Why? There is no such thing as Albanian! It is either Geg or Tosk.
>Tosk is spoken by most
>Albanians today since it is the basis for the Unified Albanian Language.
I agree.
>>It is mainly spoken by elder people, the number of Arvanite
>> speakers in both Italy and Greece declines so fast that it is expected by
>> the next decade nobody will speak it anymore.
>
>
>Too bad!
>
>> The origins of Arvanit speakers of Greece go back to the 14th century
when
>> Byzantine emperor Katakouzinos settled ethnic Greeks who spoke the
Arvanit
>> language from Epirus to Central Greece. The Greek Northern Epirots spoke
>> Arvanitika because they traded mostly with Albanians (Tosks) in their
region
>> and adapted a version of their language without ofcourse forgetting their
>> own native Greek.
>
>Absolutely not true! Their native language was Arvanitika which a dialect
of
>the Albanian language. Phyrrus Ruche has written a book on the Folk Songs
of
>south Albanians (of course claiming as you do that they are greeks)
So if Ruche agrees with my views why do you mention him?
, >and the
>song of the Suliotes were written in a cruip Albanian.
You entered a subject which I know very well. The Suliotes were Arvanites
and spoke both Greek and Arvanit (today they only speak Greek). Their songs
were written ONLY in Greek since no Albanian alphabet existed in the 19th
century. The Albanians first adopted an alphabet in 1913 and chose the Latin
one since it fitted their phtongs and pronounciation better than the Greek
one. So your claims are dismissed.
>Even I couldnd beleive
>my eyes when I read them.
That means that you read Greek.
>Of course the songs were full of contempt for "the
>muslim Albanians" who as you know were their sworn foe.
Not only of the Muslim Albanians but of the Christians as well. They hated
all Albanians.
>> There is NO DOUBT that today's Arvanites are pure Greeks
>> and are known for their Greek Nationalist sentiments. Knowing many
Arvanites
>> myself I KNOW FOR A FACT that they get insulted if one refers to them as
>> Albanians.
>
>Thats because they misteakenly take identify us with Muslim oppression.
>Muslims Albanians should not be identified with the Turks.
That's because they were pure Greeks and like other Greeks hated the guts of
ALL the Albanians and their Turkish allies despite their religious
affiliation. Let us not forget that many Muslim Greeks fought against the
Turko-Albanians, like Odusseas Androutsos an Arvanite Muslim who identified
himself as Greek.
>
>>The only ethnic Albanians that lived in Greece were the Chamates
>> (Muslim Tosks) who lived in Chameria (modern day Thesprotia). After WW2
they
>> all migrated voluntarily to Albania fearing reprisals from the local
Greeks.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>It always amazes how leasurly the Greeks disseminte such unscrupulous lies.
>The Chams were forced to flee for their lifes.
OK. Some fled and some were forced. The Chams were resposible for many war
crimes commited against the Greek population of Epirus. The most notorious
murderers of the Fascist Chams were the Dino clan. Chams wore Italian black
shirt Fascist uniforms and were frequently seen wearing them publically.
>A greek named Dimitri
>Deliolanes or smth wrote in an article published in the Italian newspaper
>LIMAS
>"in Septmeber 1944, the
>filo-monarchical partisans of Edes started a violent offensive against the
>collaborationist Muslims, resulting in actual slaughter."
The EDES rebels killed quite a few of those Cham thugs. Along with many
Greek and Albanian communists. There is nothing wrong with what they did and
I praise them for their just actions.
>> Today there are NO ALBANIANS living in Greece.
>
>I thought we had "invaded" you?:)
Yeap! Some invasion. :-)))
Costas.
Kreshnik Bejko
costas zissiadis wrote in message ...
>
>Tosk is the official language of Albania. Though Geg is the language of the
>Kossovars and the Albanians of FYROM.
The language is Albanian, classified as an indo-european language, the only
member of the Illyro-Thracian group! One of the 8 original indoeuropean
languages. It comes from no language no other language comes from it. Are
you going to deny us this too? C'mon man! It is nonalbanian linguists that
have determined this. Gegh and Tosk are perfectly intelligible. I should
know cuz my mother is from Shkoder (Ghegh) and my father from Skrapar (Tosk)
So yes, Tosk is a subgroup of the
>Albanian language and a subgroup of your race.
When you talk to me dont mention the word race. When you talk to your
neo-fascist friends under the leadership of archimandrite Sevastianos than
you may employ whatever language you want. It is funny: you accuse the
Albanian Chams of being fascists and you are one yourself.
Tosks have somewhat different
>racial characteristics from their Geg cousins. Both groups hate each other
>to death,
Absolutely not true! Thats just typical chauvinist greek propaganda. My
father (a Tosk) married a Gheg.
These terms have lost meaning in Albania. With the relative progress the
Albanian regions have underwent the contacts between the two groups have
dramatically increased leading to an almost complete eradication of
differences between Ghegs and Tosks.
>Not quite. Arvanitika is a mixture of Greek and Tosk as I mentioned
earlier.
The core of Arvanitika is Albanian, otherwise why would you call it
Albanian? (Arvanit means Albanian in Greek. This is a greecisation of the
word Arber which was the word used to identify Albanians in the 13-15 cent
AD when they moved in Morea, Attica, etc etc Theres no way you can argue
against this. Most serious scholars aggree on this point.)
>It is difficult for an Arvanit-speaker to understand a Tosk and impossible
>to understand a Geg. All Arvanits are fluent in Greek.
It may be difficult but not impossible! As I said Arvanitika is an archaic
form of Albanian its very old and of course imbued with Greek words. I read
Arvanitika w/o many difficulties.
>Why? There is no such thing as Albanian! It is either Geg or Tosk.
Now this is the typical facet of "an afflicted national consciousness".
There is absolutely no serious linguist in the world willing to accept your
thesis except for may be some deluded greek who thinks that his village is
the center of the universe.
>
>So if Ruche agrees with my views why do you mention him?
I mention him because he contradicts himself. First he titles his work of
all things "Albanian historical folksongs". He includes Suliot songs written
in pure Albanian and than goes ahead and assumes that because the Suliotes
fought other moslem Albanian soldiers they are not Albanian. Thats just pure
lunacy.
An Albanian on earth is every one who speaks Albanian. No Albanian cares
about religions. Only Greeks and Slavs do. So to be an Albanian the only
requirement is speaking the Albanian language. THAT'S IT.
They used to say they were greek. What they meant was they were eastern
orthodox. If I have the time I will provide you with information supporting
the above comming from none other but your once Prime Minister P.Pipinelis.
>You entered a subject which I know very well. The Suliotes were Arvanites
>and spoke both Greek and Arvanit (today they only speak Greek).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Again as an Albanian I have protest at the loss of my peoples cultural
heritage.
Their songs
>were written ONLY in Greek since no Albanian alphabet existed in the 19th
>century.
Written in Greek, spoken in Albanian. This must be since Ruches work has
them in Albanian.
Incidentally. Those people who you claim Greek in the region of Himara
(Chimara) sing their wedding songs and their dirges in the Albanian
language, though what they speak to each other is mostly greek.
I happened to attend a Himariote wedding ceremony and their wedding songs to
my delight were in the beautiful Albanian language.
>That means that you read Greek.
I dont know Greek. I know Albanian and some other languages.
> >Of course the songs were full of contempt for "the
>>muslim Albanians" who as you know were their sworn foe.
>
>Not only of the Muslim Albanians but of the Christians as well. They hated
>all Albanians.
Again fascists claims! You are a sick man!
>
>That's because they were pure Greeks
God you are impossible! How can you even pretend that the Helenes of 2000
years ago have remained the same? Do you know that Count Von Metternich the
Austrian Foregin minister dismissed the Greek claims for independece because
he was not sure what Greece was. He said "Greece is merely a geographical
expression"
.
>
>OK. Some fled and some were forced. The Chams were resposible for many war
>crimes commited against the Greek population of Epirus. The most notorious
>murderers of the Fascist Chams were the Dino clan. Chams wore Italian black
>shirt Fascist uniforms and were frequently seen wearing them publically.
Then they were no better than you! Both of you seem to have like ideas
In any case you should give them back their confiscated property because not
all of them committed war crimes. You (the Greek chauvinist) have to account
for the murder in cold blood of my great great grandfather in 1913 when you
invaded (not liberated) south Albania or North Epirus (I dont care what you
call it. Onomastics is the least efficient argument in proving the ethnicity
of a place)
I think I have said enough. Hopefully some of you Greeks will reconsider
what you have been lied to in the light of facts that I have given. I will
put some info. on the Greek chauvinism pretty soon.
Love yall. Long live the truth. Long live Albania and Albanians (and why not
the Greeks if they've got enough brains)
Kreshnik the Albanian
sp...@erols.com
Dear Kreshnik,
Nice post.
Kreshnik Bejko wrote:
>
> costas zissiadis wrote in message ...
> This is a greecisation of the
> word Arber which was the word used to identify Albanians in the 13-15 cent
> AD when they moved in Morea, Attica, etc etc
Actually, Kreshnik, it would be nice if you put some of this history here as
people are generally unaware of it.
> It may be difficult but not impossible! As I said Arvanitika is an archaic
> form of Albanian its very old and of course imbued with Greek words. I read
> Arvanitika w/o many difficulties.:
Indo-European (425)
Albanian (4)
Gheg (1)
ALBANIAN, GHEG [ALS] (Yugoslavia)
Tosk (3)
ALBANIAN, ARB?RESH? [AAE] (Italy)
ALBANIAN, ARVANITIKA [AAT] (Greece)
ALBANIAN, TOSK [ALN] (Albania)
This is form the Ethnologue at
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/families/Amto-Musan.html&geo=0
and the language does not appear in the family Greek:
Greek (6)
Attic (5)
GREEK, ANCIENT [GKO] (Greece)
GREEK [GRK] (Greece)
PONTIC [PNT] (Greece)
ROMANO-GREEK [RGE] (Greece)
YEVANIC [YEJ] (Israel)
Doric (1)
TSAKONIAN [TSD] (Greece)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The specifics of Arvanitika are located at :
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/families/Amto-Musan.html&geo=0
and say the following:
ALBANIAN, ARVANITIKA (ARVANITIKA, ARVANITIC) [AAT] 50,000 (Newmark) to
140,000 possible speakers (1977 Trudgill and Tzavaras). Attica (Attiki),
Bocotia (Viotia),
southern Euboea (Evia), and the island of Salamis (Salamina); Epyrus region
and
Athens. Mainly rural. Indo-European, Albanian, Tosk. Arvanitika is partially
intelligible
with Tosk. Speakers are called 'Arvanites'. The language is heavily
influenced by
Greek. Spoken by older people. Young people are migrating to Athens and
assimilating as Greeks. Christian. NT 1827.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note, NT = New Testament, first year translated into.
>
> >Why? There is no such thing as Albanian! It is either Geg or Tosk.
>
> Now this is the typical facet of "an afflicted national consciousness".
> There is absolutely no serious linguist in the world willing to accept your
> thesis except for may be some deluded greek who thinks that his village is
> the center of the universe.
>
> > So to be an Albanian the only
> requirement is speaking the Albanian language. THAT'S IT.
> They used to say they were greek. What they meant was they were eastern
> orthodox. If I have the time I will provide you with information supporting
> the above comming from none other but your once Prime Minister P.Pipinelis.
Do you have a itation and quote?
>
> >You entered a subject which I know very well. The Suliotes were Arvanites
> >and spoke both Greek and Arvanit (today they only speak Greek).
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Again as an Albanian I have protest at the loss of my peoples cultural
> heritage.
>
> Their songs
> >were written ONLY in Greek since no Albanian alphabet existed in the 19th
> >century.
>
> Written in Greek, spoken in Albanian. This must be since Ruches work has
> them in Albanian.
> Incidentally. Those people who you claim Greek in the region of Himara
> (Chimara) sing their wedding songs and their dirges in the Albanian
> language, though what they speak to each other is mostly greek.
> I happened to attend a Himariote wedding ceremony and their wedding songs to
> my delight were in the beautiful Albanian language.
>
Do you know that Count Von Metternich the
> Austrian Foregin minister dismissed the Greek claims for independece because
> he was not sure what Greece was. He said "Greece is merely a geographical expression"
Kreshnik, do you have a reference for this? I want to see where he thought
other places might have been "geographical expressions". Fascinating.
> You (the Greek chauvinist) have to account
> for the murder in cold blood of my great great grandfather in 1913 when you
> invaded (not liberated) south Albania or North Epirus (I dont care what you
> call it. Onomastics is the least efficient argument in proving the ethnicity
> of a place)
Kreshnik, we have had many threads in this netgroup and in the Macedonian on
1912-13 and would enjoy hearing your family history form that period as a
contribution to understanding the dynamics of that difficult time.
>
> Love yall. Long live the truth. Long live Albania and Albanians (and why not
> the Greeks if they've got enough brains)
>
> Kreshnik the Albanian
>
>
The Greeks have enough brains, just like any other people. DOwn with
chauvinism and nationalism, Up with cultural preservation
Galina
Nikos Sarantakos
>An Albanian on earth is every one who speaks Albanian. No Albanian cares
>about religions.
Care to elaborate a bit about that? I have heard this from Greeks as
well, ie. that Albanians by tradition are/were not very religious, but
I have no confirmation. (Is that perhaps one reason that Hoxha
allegedly abolished religion, the only one to attempt such a
measure?)
On another topic, you know perhaps that Arvanites are traditionally
-proverbially considered to be very obstinate people who are
never changing their mind, cf. the proverbial expression "Arbanitiko
kefali" (lit. Arvanite head) meaning, say, "obstinate as a mule".
I hope you are not insulted by these stereotypes -every people has
similar (usually pejorative) examples for its neighbours and I guess
that you also have expressions, proverbs etc. in Albanian about
Greeks. If that is the case, I would be most interesting to know them,
even if they are insulting :-)
ns
sp...@erols.com
Nikos Sarantakos wrote:
>
> On another topic, you know perhaps that Arvanites are traditionally
> -proverbially considered to be very obstinate people who are
> never changing their mind, cf. the proverbial expression "Arbanitiko
> kefali" (lit. Arvanite head) meaning, say, "obstinate as a mule".
>
> I hope you are not insulted by these stereotypes -every people has
> similar (usually pejorative) examples for its neighbours and I guess
> that you also have expressions, proverbs etc. in Albanian about
> Greeks. If that is the case, I would be most interesting to know them,
> even if they are insulting :-)
>
> ns
>
>
NIKOS!!!!!!!!!!! DOn't we all have enough insults here???!!!???
Unknown
In <6e1pmj$8ft$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> by kbe...@ptloma.edu on Mon, 09 Mar 1998
16:16:57 -0600 we perused:
*+-It is not a matter of relation. Tosk dialect is a dialect of the Albanian
*+-language. Arvanitika is a variation of the Tosk dialect of the Albanian
It cannot be proven if Tosk is a dialect of Albanian or Albanian a
dialect of Tosk! Gheg is a Turkefied Dervish Janissary dialect of
either. Tosks were the highlanders of the second IndoEuropean wave
(again, you can't really prove if they were proto-Greek or
proto-Messogian). Because they lived in the highlands and not near
the cities, they remained "savage" until relatively recently; That
makes them no less related to the Greeks, Latins or whatever in the
cities down below.
I suggest you read p 979 of Columbia History of the World (1972 H&R),
about how Italy & Austria "conjured up an independent Albania".
The Ghegs may be paying lip service to speaking the purer Tosk, but
the Ghegs run the show in Albania and the Ghegs run the heroin trade
in Europe and North America.
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bioengineer-Financier, NYC
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian http://WWW.Dorsai.Org/~vjp2
vjp2@{MCIMail.Com|CompuServe.Com|Dorsai.Org}
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
costas zissiadis
Kreshnik Bejko wrote in message
<6e2op0$6eva$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>costas zissiadis wrote in message ...
>>
>>Tosk is the official language of Albania. Though Geg is the language of
the
>>Kossovars and the Albanians of FYROM.
>
>The language is Albanian, classified as an indo-european language, the only
>member of the Illyro-Thracian group! One of the 8 original indoeuropean
>languages.
I KNOW THAT! What I was saying whas that Albanian itself is devided among
two linguistic groups. Gegh and Tosk. Arvanitika is a sub-group of the Tosk
dialect but is heavy influenced by Greek. Arvanitika will soon be extinct
due to the fact that only old people speak it.
>It comes from no language no other language comes from it. Are
>you going to deny us this too? C'mon man! It is nonalbanian linguists that
>have determined this. Gegh and Tosk are perfectly intelligible.
Once again. Gegh and Tosk are somewhat similar but certainly not perfectly
intelligible. Today Geghs and Tosks communicate with eachother in Tosk since
it's the official dialect.
>I should
>know cuz my mother is from Shkoder (Ghegh) and my father from Skrapar
(Tosk)
Do you speak Gegh Bejko?
>>So yes, Tosk is a subgroup of the
>>Albanian language and a subgroup of your race.
>
>When you talk to me dont mention the word race.
You brought the subject up. Remember?
>When you talk to your
>neo-fascist friends under the leadership of archimandrite Sevastianos than
>you may employ whatever language you want.
When I talk to you also I will employ any language I feel like. Don't order
me around.
>It is funny: you accuse the
>Albanian Chams of being fascists and you are one yourself.
Calling someone a Fascist is not an accusation. It is a statement. Chams
embraced the Fascist ideology back in the 30's and 40's, that's what they
were!
>>Tosks have somewhat different
>>racial characteristics from their Geg cousins. Both groups hate each other
>>to death,
>
>Absolutely not true! Thats just typical chauvinist greek propaganda.
Greek propaganda? Is this the best excuse you can come up with? Then explain
me what was that conflict last year in Albania? Why did the Tosks and Greeks
of the south rebelled against their Gegh oppressors of the Democratic Party?
Do you know that 80% of Tosks vote for the SP and 80% of Geghs vote for the
DP? Do you know that when Fatos Nano(Tosk) tried to enter Shkodra(Gheg
stonghold) he life was threatened? Do you know that the Gheg settlers in the
south were expelled violently from their homes by the Tosks? If this is not
hatred, then I don't know what this is.
My
>father (a Tosk) married a Gheg.
>These terms have lost meaning in Albania. With the relative progress the
>Albanian regions have underwent the contacts between the two groups have
>dramatically increased leading to an almost complete eradication of
>differences between Ghegs and Tosks.
You are wrong. Gaps may have been bridged but the main differences remain.
You can't fool me.
>
>>Not quite. Arvanitika is a mixture of Greek and Tosk as I mentioned
>earlier.
>
>The core of Arvanitika is Albanian, otherwise why would you call it
>Albanian?
The core WAS Albanian until the 19th century. Since then more and more
borrowings occured from the Greek language, thus making Arvanite a mixed
language.
>(Arvanit means Albanian in Greek. This is a greecisation of the
>word Arber which was the word used to identify Albanians in the 13-15 cent
>AD when they moved in Morea, Attica, etc etc Theres no way you can argue
>against this.
Albanian speakers migrated to Morea and Roumeli, not necessarily Albanians.
Don't forget that most etnic Albanian were massacred in two occasions in
Greece. One was by the Ottomans in the 14th century and the other was again
by Ottomans (Hirshit Pasha) in the 19th century. Historians say with
certainity that the majority of ethnic Albanians living in Greece were
killed by the Ottomans and the remaining either migrated to Turkey or to
Albania. As a result no ethnic Albanians reside in Greece since 1944.
>Most serious scholars aggree on this point.)
What do you know about seriousness?
>>It is difficult for an Arvanit-speaker to understand a Tosk and impossible
>>to understand a Geg. All Arvanits are fluent in Greek.
>
>
>It may be difficult but not impossible!
I never said it was impossible. It is very difficult to understand Tosk.
>As I said Arvanitika is an archaic
>form of Albanian its very old and of course imbued with Greek words. I read
>Arvanitika w/o many difficulties.
LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! How can you read Arvanitika since it has never been
written? Aranitika has always been an oral dialect with no script!
>>Why? There is no such thing as Albanian! It is either Geg or Tosk.
>Now this is the typical facet of "an afflicted national consciousness".
>There is absolutely no serious linguist in the world willing to accept your
>thesis except for may be some deluded greek who thinks that his village is
>the center of the universe.
I adapted my view from linguistic reports on Albanian. Not by some ....
deluded Greeks as you claim! Get real!
>>So if Ruche agrees with my views why do you mention him?
>I mention him because he contradicts himself. First he titles his work of
>all things "Albanian historical folksongs". He includes Suliot songs
written
>in pure Albanian and than goes ahead and assumes that because the Suliotes
>fought other moslem Albanian soldiers they are not Albanian.
Of course they were not Albanians!!! Souliotes were of Greek stock. They
despised Albanians (Christian & Muslim alike) and fought ferociously against
them until their holocaust was carried out by those despised Albanians.
Souliotes identified themselves with the Greek cause for independence. If
they were Albanians they would hava allied with Ali Pasha. Clear?
>Thats just pure
>lunacy.
>An Albanian on earth is every one who speaks Albanian.
So if an African from the ZULU tribe speaks Albanian, then he must qualify
as an Albanian. Right? Well kid, let me tell you something. Language is not
the factor to determines someone's ethnicity. Ethnicity is based on blood
and on ethnic consciousness. Arvanites beyond any doubt have both the
characteridtics that I mentioned, thus they are Greeks like the rest of us.
Eventhough their language is more similat to yours. Ask any Greek Arvanit
and he will tell you the same.
>No Albanian cares
>about religions. Only Greeks and Slavs do.
That's because Albanians were under a harsh Marxist-Maoist regime for 45
years. Now religious consciosness is reviving again.
>So to be an Albanian the only
>requirement is speaking the Albanian language. THAT'S IT.
This statement says it ALL! No further comments on your people's retarded
mentality.
>They used to say they were greek. What they meant was they were eastern
>orthodox.
Nobody claims that all Orthodox Albanians are Greeks. 20% of Albanians are
Orthodox, while only 8% of Albanians are ethnic Greeks. Thus most Orthodox
adherents are ethnic Albanians.
>If I have the time I will provide you with information supporting
>the above comming from none other but your once Prime Minister P.Pipinelis.
Yes. I am waiting with anticipation.
>>You entered a subject which I know very well. The Suliotes were Arvanites
>>and spoke both Greek and Arvanit (today they only speak Greek).
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Again as an Albanian I have protest at the loss of my peoples cultural
>heritage.
YOUR people? I am afraid the Souliotes are my people not yours! Your people
live north of Northern Epirus.
>>Their songs
>>were written ONLY in Greek since no Albanian alphabet existed in the 19th
>>century.
>
>Written in Greek, spoken in Albanian. This must be since Ruches work has
>them in Albanian.
Written in Greek only!
>Incidentally. Those people who you claim Greek in the region of Himara
>(Chimara) sing their wedding songs and their dirges in the Albanian
>language, though what they speak to each other is mostly greek.
So? You said it yourself. They speak to each other in Greek, just like the
Arvanites do.
>I happened to attend a Himariote wedding ceremony and their wedding songs
to
>my delight were in the beautiful Albanian language.
>
>
>
> >That means that you read Greek.
>
>
>I dont know Greek. I know Albanian and some other languages.
Many Albanians speak Greek. If we also claimed that a Greek is simply the
one who speaks Greek, then half of Albania would have been Greek. But we are
not silly lile you, we don't base ethnicity only on language!
>>Not only of the Muslim Albanians but of the Christians as well. They hated
>>all Albanians.
>
>Again fascists claims! You are a sick man!
Who is sick? These are not Fascist claims!!! You are a sick man or woman. I
don't know what the hell you are. I stated facts that seem to annoy you.
Greeks despise ALL Albanians despite their religious affiliation. So did the
Souliotes who were Greek.
>>That's because they were pure Greeks
>God you are impossible! How can you even pretend that the Helenes of 2000
>years ago have remained the same?
I don't pretend, they ARE!!! Ancient Greeks and modern Greeks are the same
people except that the later are Christians. We are the direct descendants
of the Dorians, Acheans, Aeolians and the Ionians. Greek tribes of
antiquity. We are 90% the same people. It is you who are the bastards!
>Do you know that Count Von Metternich the
>Austrian Foregin minister dismissed the Greek claims for independece
because
>he was not sure what Greece was.
Metternich was not an ethnologist, but a politician. He was against Greek
independence because he feared that if different nationalities start revolt
in the Balkans, then nationalities living under the Austrian crown would
revolt to. He was a fanatic anti-nationalist. So he resented Greeks and
their cause for independence!
>He said "Greece is merely a geographical
>expression"
As I said, Metternich was biased against anything Greek.
>>OK. Some fled and some were forced. The Chams were resposible for many war
>>crimes commited against the Greek population of Epirus. The most notorious
>>murderers of the Fascist Chams were the Dino clan. Chams wore Italian
black
>>shirt Fascist uniforms and were frequently seen wearing them publically.
>
>
>Then they were no better than you! Both of you seem to have like ideas.
You are pathetic in your arguments. I have like ideas with the Chams? You
mean that I also like killing Greeks? Give me a break!
>In any case you should give them back their confiscated property because
not
>all of them committed war crimes.
Come suck our d.... first, before we give you any compensation. How about if
those murderers stood before a court for the crimes they commited duting the
Axis occupation of Epirus during WW2.
>You (the Greek chauvinist) have to account
>for the murder in cold blood of my great great grandfather in 1913 when you
>invaded (not liberated) south Albania or North Epirus (I dont care what you
>call it.
Your grandfather probably supported our Turkish enemies. The Greek army
L-I-B-E-R-A-T-E-D N.Epirus in 1912 and destoyed the Turkish army there along
with their Albanian allies.
>Onomastics is the least efficient argument in proving the ethnicity
>of a place)
Be more precise.
>I think I have said enough. Hopefully some of you Greeks will reconsider
>what you have been lied to in the light of facts that I have given.
I dismissed your lies over and over again. Have you had enough know? Keep
your Albanian anti-Greek propaganda out of here!!!!!
>I will
>put some info. on the Greek chauvinism pretty soon.
Yeah! And don't forget to brush your teeth before you go to sleep.
>Love yall. Long live the truth. Long live Albania and Albanians (and why
not
>the Greeks if they've got enough brains)
>
>Kreshnik the Albanian
Kreshnik the liar.
Costas.
Vasilios Pilarinos
sp...@erols.com wrote:
% NIKOS!!!!!!!!!!! DOn't we all have enough insults here???!!!???
No, stupid. Now go away.
--
* Vasilios L. Pilarinos (vpil...@hellas.org)
|_ "Den 8a lhsmonhsoume, 8a 3anagurisoume!" -- visit www.hellas.org!
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <#ys5cdF...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> "costas zissiadis" <phala...@email.msn.com> writes:
<snip>
> Historians say with
>certainity that the majority of ethnic Albanians living in Greece were
>killed by the Ottomans and the remaining either migrated to Turkey or to
>Albania. As a result no ethnic Albanians reside in Greece since 1944.
What's an 'ethnic Albanian' and which historians are those who declare with
'certainty'. that 'no ethnic Albanians [sic] reside in Greece since 1944'. I
agree with you, Costa, that there are practically no Greek citizens who have
an Albanian ethnic or ethno-national identity and conscience. But I disagree
with you that the Arvanitika speakers (or those who descend from such folks)
amongst Greek citizens are of 'Ancient Hellenic' genetic stock without many
many admixtures. And the consensus of the historian and ethnologist community
is in support of my position ('stock mixing' but Hellenization at the level of
religion and conscience) rather than yours. And this has been the 'wonder',
the immense strength of the Hellenic idea, that it has not been dependent on
genetic or 'stock' homogeneity and endogamy for survival. We modern Greeks are
objectively of a varied genetic stock, but of a very homogeneous cultural
stock. Our ancestors, for the most part, have been Hellenic in consciousness
and practice. Being Hellenic meant different things at different times, the
latest before the current national one being that of the Romyi. Our country is
homogeneous at the level of conscience and identity and practice, 'despite'
our genetically polymorphous background. And that's the beautt of it.
<snip>
>Of course they were not Albanians!!! Souliotes were of Greek stock. They
>despised Albanians (Christian & Muslim alike) and fought ferociously against
>them until their holocaust was carried out by those despised Albanians.
>Souliotes identified themselves with the Greek cause for independence. If
>they were Albanians they would hava allied with Ali Pasha. Clear?
The above is simply historically inaccurate. The allegiances of the Arvanites
of Souli and Epirus in general did not depend either on 'genetic stock' (Greek
vs Albanian) or on religion. You should read some of the many treatises on the
Arvanites, penned by 100% super Greek patriot Arvanites.
<snip>
>Greeks despise ALL Albanians despite their religious affiliation. So did the
>Souliotes who were Greek.
Speak for yourself. You don't represent all Greeks.
<snip>
>I don't pretend, they ARE!!! Ancient Greeks and modern Greeks are the same
>people except that the later are Christians. We are the direct descendants
>of the Dorians, Acheans, Aeolians and the Ionians. Greek tribes of
>antiquity. We are 90% the same people. It is you who are the bastards!
That is obviously what you BELIEVE. But this belief is not supported by
anything. We are no more than at best 10% the 'same people' as the ancient
Hellenes. And YET, we are overwhelmingly Hellenic in our conscience and
practice. And that's what counts.
<snip>
<snip>
>Costas.
"Oblivion, indeed I would even go as far as to say historical error, is a most
essential factor in the creation of a nation."
"H lh8h, isws akomh kai to istopiko sfalma, eivai shmavtikotatoi napagovtes sthv
dhmioupgia evos e8vous"
Ernest Renan, "What is a Nation?" (1882)
Stavros N. Karageorgis
kara...@ucla.edu
Nikos Sarantakos
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:51:51 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
>> I hope you are not insulted by these stereotypes -every people has
>> similar (usually pejorative) examples for its neighbours and I guess
>> that you also have expressions, proverbs etc. in Albanian about
>> Greeks. If that is the case, I would be most interesting to know them,
>> even if they are insulting :-)
>>
>> ns
>>
>>
We have more than enough insults, but this is a linguistic discussion,
not the usual dog-fight :-)
ns
sp...@erols.com
ok, sounded like you just wanted few more creative ways to insult, putting
out feeler into other cultures to enrich the phraseaology of the future, so
to speak.
gs
Vasilios Psarras
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:03:03 -0500, "costas zissiadis" wrote:
> We are the direct descendants
>of the Dorians, Acheans, Aeolians and the Ionians. Greek tribes of
>antiquity. We are 90% the same people. It is you who are the bastards!
According to biological DNA studies, apes have 95% of the human DNA
characteristics. Now if you want to maintain that modern greeks relate to
classical greeks biologically, you have to bump up your percentage above as
close to 100 as you can.
just a thought
Vasilios Psarras
--------------------------------------------------------------
Anti-Spam note: To reply via email use the following address:
Kreshnik Bejko
Nikos Sarantakos wrote in message <35057f38...@news.innet.lu>...
>On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:01:11 -0800, "Kreshnik Bejko"
><KBE...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>Care to elaborate a bit about that? I have heard this from Greeks as
>well, ie. that Albanians by tradition are/were not very religious, but
>I have no confirmation. (Is that perhaps one reason that Hoxha
>allegedly abolished religion, the only one to attempt such a
>measure?)
I will give you the answers you need. Costas will not like what I will say
but hey, he's got MABH
to lend him moral support:)(I wonder what they say about the recent
friendship treaty Greece signed with Albania)
>On another topic, you know perhaps that Arvanites are traditionally
>-proverbially considered to be very obstinate people who are
>never changing their mind, cf. the proverbial expression "Arbanitiko
>kefali" (lit. Arvanite head) meaning, say, "obstinate as a mule".
>
All Albanians are obstinate people. Though I dont give a damn about some
Greek's claims on NE
I keep arguing just for the pleasure of it. In Albania when we get
frustrated with each other we yell
"Ah you Albanian" :) Yep we are mule heads alright!
The answers you, Galina, and Costaqis wants will be available shortly.
However school is my first priority so after I get my A-s you'll have your
answers which I assure you will be very interesting.
Sincerely
Kreshnik Bejko
kbe...@ptloma.edu
In article <karageor.29...@ucla.edu>,
> That is obviously what you BELIEVE. But this belief is not supported by
> anything. We are no more than at best 10% the 'same people' as the ancient
> Hellenes. And YET, we are overwhelmingly Hellenic in our conscience and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> practice. And that's what counts.
^^^^^^^^^^^
I agree.Hellenic in conscience and practise is the entire world thanks to a
Macedonian barbarian, who though not allowed to compete in the Olympic games
because he was not of pure blood, embraced the Greek values and spread them
from Macedonia to India. In conscience and practise we are all Helenes. All
that are left for a resident of Greece today, to make him think that he/she is
a pure Hellene , and to distinguish him from the others, are the vices of the
Greeks. Their virtues and their ideals, perpetuated both by Rome and the
Arabic countries, reside today in us all. Thus, a Greek in the 20th century,
if he thinks he/she is a pure Helene, is only the sum of the many vices of the
Helenes (racism, xenophobia, misogynia etc etc)
Yours truly
Kreshnik the Arvanite
> <snip>
>
> <snip>
>
> >Costas.
>
> "Oblivion, indeed I would even go as far as to say historical error, is a
most
> essential factor in the creation of a nation."
>
> "H lh8h, isws akomh kai to istopiko sfalma, eivai shmavtikotatoi napagovtes
sthv
> dhmioupgia evos e8vous"
>
> Ernest Renan, "What is a Nation?" (1882)
>
> Stavros N. Karageorgis
> kara...@ucla.edu
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Stavros N Karageorgis
>In article <karageor.29...@ucla.edu>,
> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
>>
>> That is obviously what you BELIEVE. But this belief is not supported by
>> anything. We are no more than at best 10% the 'same people' as the ancient
>> Hellenes. And YET, we are overwhelmingly Hellenic in our conscience and
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> practice. And that's what counts.
>^^^^^^^^^^^
>I agree.Hellenic in conscience and practise is the entire world thanks to a
>Macedonian barbarian, who though not allowed to compete in the Olympic games
>because he was not of pure blood,
Who are you talking about? The only Macedonian of whose Olympic game
participation we know is Alexander the First. And we know that the
Hellanodikai looked into the matter, and allowed him to participate.
So, as you're making a completely different point than the one I was making
(which amounts to faint praise, since you deny modern Greeks any
distinctiveness, and any distinctive connection with Hellenic culture through
the ages), do pay attention to accuracy.
>embraced the Greek values and spread them
>from Macedonia to India. In conscience and practise we are all Helenes.
No, you're not. You don't think of yourself as a Greek ethno-nationally, do
you? Therefore, you are not an Hellene in conscience. Case closed.
All
>that are left for a resident of Greece today, to make him think that he/she is
>a pure Hellene , and to distinguish him from the others, are the vices of the
>Greeks. Their virtues and their ideals, perpetuated both by Rome and the
>Arabic countries, reside today in us all. Thus, a Greek in the 20th century,
>if he thinks he/she is a pure Helene, is only the sum of the many vices of the
>Helenes (racism, xenophobia, misogynia etc etc)
>Yours truly
>Kreshnik the Arvanite
Are you sure you're Arvaniti?
Nicholas Georgakopoulos
CHRISTOS THANDIS IS THE GREATEST GREEK SINGER EVER. NO OTHER MUSICIAN IN
EUROPE INCLUDING< FYROM/YUGO/CROA/> can beat melody like that.
Georgios Savopulos
kbe...@ptloma.edu wrote:
: I agree.Hellenic in conscience and practise is the entire world thanks to a
: Macedonian barbarian, who though not allowed to compete in the Olympic games
Macedonian Greek. You're shooting your credibility on the foot right
from the start with such ignorant statements. And it is quite well known
that Alexander I of Macedonia have competed in the Olympic games.
: Arabic countries, reside today in us all. Thus, a Greek in the 20th century,
: if he thinks he/she is a pure Helene, is only the sum of the many vices of
: the Helenes (racism, xenophobia, misogynia etc etc)
If that was true, then some 200,000 of your compatriots would have
never tried to illegally stay and work in Greece. Their attempts to
enter the country again and again and again are sufficient to show who
the racist is around here. You.
: Yours truly
: Kreshnik the Arvanite
--
Georgios Savopulos
Hoosierland.
kbe...@ptloma.edu
In article <karageor.29...@ucla.edu>,
kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
>
> >I agree.Hellenic in conscience and practise is the entire world thanks to a
> >Macedonian barbarian, who though not allowed to compete in the Olympic
games
> >because he was not of pure blood,
>
> Who are you talking about? The only Macedonian of whose Olympic game
> participation we know is Alexander the First. And we know that the
> Hellanodikai looked into the matter, and allowed him to participate.
I have different information on the matter. May be it is wrong. I dont know.
I'd have to look again at my sources but unfortunatelly my time is thinly
stretched between school and work, so it's gona be some time (I think it was
Robert Kaplan who said this but I am not sure)
> So, as you're making a completely different point than the one I was making
yes I am.It is a rather unimportant point so you need not concern yourself
with it.
>
> >embraced the Greek values and spread them
> >from Macedonia to India. In conscience and practise we are all Helenes.
>
> No, you're not.
Yes I am in "matters of speech and thought" as one ancient historian whom you
like to quote says. Speech here does not mean the Greek language but things
like rhetoric, communication arts etc etc.
> You don't think of yourself as a Greek ethno-nationally, do
you? Therefore, you are not an Hellene in conscience.
Nah! not ethno-nationally! But as I said in ideals yes!
>Case closed.
Quite the contrary
> >Yours truly
> >Kreshnik the Arvanite
>
> Are you sure you're Arvaniti?
yes! I am Albanian.
Stavros N Karageorgis
>In article <karageor.29...@ucla.edu>,
> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
>>
>> >I agree.Hellenic in conscience and practise is the entire world thanks to a
>> >Macedonian barbarian, who though not allowed to compete in the Olympic
>games
>> >because he was not of pure blood,
>>
>> Who are you talking about? The only Macedonian of whose Olympic game
>> participation we know is Alexander the First. And we know that the
>> Hellanodikai looked into the matter, and allowed him to participate.
>I have different information on the matter. May be it is wrong. I dont know.
>I'd have to look again at my sources but unfortunatelly my time is thinly
>stretched between school and work, so it's gona be some time (I think it was
>Robert Kaplan who said this but I am not sure)
I would consult Herodotus and Thucydides, rather than second-hand peddlers of
half-digested snippets of classical education such as Kaplan.
>> So, as you're making a completely different point than the one I was making
>yes I am.It is a rather unimportant point so you need not concern yourself
>with it.
>>
>> >embraced the Greek values and spread them
>> >from Macedonia to India. In conscience and practise we are all Helenes.
>>
>> No, you're not.
>Yes I am in "matters of speech and thought" as one ancient historian whom you
>like to quote says. Speech here does not mean the Greek language but things
>like rhetoric, communication arts etc etc.
Isocrates was not a historian.
>> You don't think of yourself as a Greek ethno-nationally, do
> you? Therefore, you are not an Hellene in conscience.
>Nah! not ethno-nationally! But as I said in ideals yes!
I hope so.
>>Case closed.
>Quite the contrary
>> >Yours truly
>> >Kreshnik the Arvanite
>>
>> Are you sure you're Arvaniti?
>yes! I am Albanian.
Well, it appears you're a propagandist then. We Greeks, Arvanites included,
call Albanians 'Alvani' NOT 'Arvanites'. For better or worse, if you call an
Arvaniti 'Alvane', you're liable to be, at the very least, verbally rebuked
(probably worse).
You're welcome to consider Greek Arvanites Albanians of Greek conscience. But
you're not entitled to call yourself an Arvaniti because you're Albanian.
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
"Oblivion, indeed I would even go as far as to say historical error, is a most
Sps300
Linguistic Variables in Post-Byzantine Greece"
Professor Spiros Vrionis
UCLA
Dumbarton Oaks Papers, 1968
Harvard University
"Recent scholarship provides ample evidence that by the 16th century
approximately one third of the population of the Peloponesean peninsula
was predominantly Albanian-speaking."
Sps300
The Arvanites: an Albanian "minority" in Greece?
by Laurie Kain Hart*
in Cultural Survival Quarterly, Summer, 1995 p59
Cambridge, Massachusetts
*Assistant Professor of Anthropology at Haverford College
"During the Greek War of Independence in the 1820's, many of those
who fought against the Turks on the side of the Greeks were
Albanian-speaking Epirotes - most famously, the Suliotes celebrated by
(Lord) Byron. A significant part of the Greek government in the 19th and
early 20th century was Albanian. Some of the heros of the Greek
independence movement were Albanians, such as Kolokotronis, Bubulina,
Kapodistria and Marco Bocaris.
"Within Greece - in Attica, the Peloponnese, the Saronic Gulf
Islands, Hydra and Spetsae, Eubeoa and the Aegean - substantial Albanian
speaking communities have existed since the late 14th century. Some of
these Albanians arrived as independent migrants, some wqere invited as
mercenaries by the Byzantines, and some were brought by the Turks in
various military operations and colonizartion schemes. In the 19th
century, they were increasingly hellenized (without, until recently,
abandoning their domestic Albanian language) through the influence of
commerce, state education and the Greek Orthodox church. The old
families of Athens are descendants of Albanians.
"Hellenized Albanian speakers in Greece are expressly
distinguished from "Albanians" (Alvani) proper, being called Arvanites in
Greek. Yet the two terms appear in the historical record simultaneously
(in the 11th century), initially with reference to Catholic
Albanian-speakers - the former in the political sensew, the later
probably in a regional reference. (In the 11th Century, Orthodox
Albanian speakers would have been classified together with Byzantine
Greeks.)"
2) "Greek and Arvanitika in Corinthia"
by Professor Kostas Kazazis
University of Chicago
published in Balkanistica, III, 1976 pp 42-5l Kenneth Naylor,
editor
"This paper attempts to describe some of the socio-linguistic
conditions prevalent in the bilingual areas of Corinthia, in the
northeastern corner of the Peloponnese. Corinthia contains some of the
most important Albanian-speaking enclaves still left in southern Greece."
"Moreover, a minority language like Arvanitika must have been a
thorn in the side of those 19th and early 20th century Greeks who hopes
for a revival of "the glory that was (ancient) Greece" (and Byzantium one
might add) and who wished to show that Fallmerayer (1760-1861) and his
followers were wrong in proclaiming that the Greek element in the
population of modern Greece was negligible."
Sps300
History of the Byzantine Empire, Vol. II written by A.A. Vasiliev, Dumbarton
Oaks, Harvard University and published by the University of Wisconsin Press in
1952, pp. 614-615.
"...a strong movement of the Albanians towards the south,...all over middle
Greece, the Peloponnesus, and many islands of the Aegean Sea. This powerful
stream of Albanian colonization is felt even today. A German scholar of the
first half of the nineteenth century, Fallmerayer, came out with the astounding
theory that the Greeks had been completely exterminated by the Slavs and
Albanians; 'not a single drop of pure Hellenic blood flows in the veins
of the Christian population of modern Greece.' He wrote in the second volume
of his History of the Peninsula of Morea in the Middle Ages, that, beginning
with the second quarter of the fourteenth century, the Greek-Slavs who
inhabited Greece were displaced and crushed by Albanian settlers, so that, in
his opinion, the Greek revolution of the nineteenth century which freed Greece
from the Turkish yoke, was in reality the work of Albanian
hands. Fallmerayer journeyed through Greece and found in Attica, Boeotia, and
the major part of the Peloponnesus a very great number of Albanian settlers,
who sometimes did not even understand Greek. If one calls this country a new
Albania wrote the same author, one gives it its real name. Those provinces of
the Greek Kingdom are no more closely related to Hellenism than the Scotish
Highlands are to the Afghan regions of Kandahar and Kabul."
Vasiliev continues, ..."it is true that even today many islands of the
Archipelago and almost all Attica as far as Athens are Albanian....Thus, the
time of Andronicus III was marked by the beginning of Albanian colonization to
the south in Greece as far as thePeloponnesus, and of an important
ethnographical alteration among the population of the Greek peninsula."
Sps300
This Book Review originally appeared in the August/1995 issue of LIRIA)
Book Review
ARVANITET
By Irakli Kocollari
Published in the Albanian language by Albinform, Tirane, Albania.
(May be purchased from Rexh Xhakli, 3235 Grand Concourse, Bronx, NY
10468. $10)
Reviewed by Dr. Arben Kallamata
1992 Neiman Fellow at Harvard University and 1994 Fulbright Scholar at
Boston University
Albania is a nation rich in history but, regrettably, not in historians.
Over the
last two centuries, Albanians under the Ottoman
Empire were forced to maintain a low profile while a more modern
Albanian
culture was beginning to take shape. The role
of Albanian historian was first assumed by writers, patriots, and
important
nationalistic figures such as Naim Frasheri and
Fan Noli who each wrote versions of the history of Skanderbeg,
Albania's
14th century folkhero, to revive the patriotic
spirit in Albanians and to remind the world of just how much Western
civilization owed to that small nation. It was only in
the past five decades that certain attempts were undertaken to develop
an
historical synthesis of Albania but even these
activities were greatly controlled by the rigid isolationist policy of
the
former communist government.
It is only now, at the end of the 20th Century, that Albanian
historians
are free to fill the void, to accomplish a duty to the
motherland by providing the world with the truth about Albania's
culture,
history, and development. The 1994 book,
Arvanitet, by Irakli Kocollari about the Albanians of Greece, is an
attempt
to objectively condense and present in concise
form a vast array of documents, citations, travelers' diaries, previous
historical
research, archives, etc. that deal with this
considerable portion of the Albanian nation (about 3 million according
to a Greek
publication cited by Kocollari: Ethnos, I kathadhos qe o robs tu sti
dhiamorsfosi
tu eleneki kratu, P. 14, V. Rafailidhis, May 5, 1986). In an attempt to
delineate their
history in Greece, Kocollari endeavors to provide answers to a range of
questions
such as: why are the Albanians living in
these parts? How came they there? What was the reaction of the Greeks
to the
Albanians? What happened to the
Albanians during the course of centuries, and how were they able to
survive
assimilation for such a long period of time?
To answer these and other questions, Kocollari has researched and made
use
of a very rich and extensive bibliography
where one can quickly perceive the paucity of Albanian historiography -
out of 55 authors and publications listed and
quoted by the author, only 8 are Albanian, the rest are Latin, British,
German,
and, mainly, Greek. I believe this has
produced a two-sided effect: One side, the positive one, clearly shows
that everything
written in the book about the
Arvanits (Albanians) of Greece cannot really be disputed since the
evidence is
abundantly and undeniably supported by the
large number of cited Greek authors, historians, archeologists, and
scientists.
This is especially critical when describing a
large Albanian population and its important contribution to the history
of
Greece. Evidence is provided that Greece, through
the Arvanits, was able to throw off the Ottoman yoke because most of
the
distinguished figures of the Greek Revolution
were Albanians: Marko Boáari, Foto Xhavella, Äelo Picari, Zylftar Poda,
Karaiskaj,
Kollokotroni, Shahin Qafezezi, Gjon
Leka, Rrapo Hekali, Tafil Buzi, Hodo Leka, and, especially, the
well-known woman
who is considered one of the most
outstanding heroes of Greek history, Laskarina Bubulina. These
represent only a
few names out of a long list of brave
Albanian men and women who left their deep marks in Greek history.
However, there is another side to this saga derived by seeing Albanians
through
the eyes of foreigners and that is the
author's overemphasis of Albanians as superb fighting machines at the
expense
of their other noble qualities. It certainly
cannot be denied that Albanians have always distinguished themselves as
a brave
and courageous race and as a people
forced by history to preserve their fighting spirit and to keep their
arms
handy for their own self-preservation.
However, there are other important Albanian qualities that Koáollari
should have stressed in the book: Albanians boast not
only of their reputations as fighters, they also boast of their
culture, epos,
legends, costumes, music, laws, art, architecture,
writers, and civilization. Albanians are proud to have given to the
world names
like Jan Kukuzeli and Nikete Dardani both of
whom set the foundations of the most cultivated Christian religious
music.
In point of fact, Kukezeli composed the "Te
Deum" (God, We Love You) perhaps the oldest known written religious
music sung
by church choirs all over the world.
Albanians are also proud that they produced extraordinary artists and
painters
such as Onufri, Selenicasi, and Zografi whose
mural paintings and frescoes adorn monasteries and churches all over
the Byzantine Empire --
Constantinople, Bulgaria,
Greece, Macedonia, and Albania. And that they've produced architects
such as
Sinan who designed the Blue Mosque in
Istanbul, and Karl Von Gega , who designed the famous Semmering railway
system in
Austria and Germany that became
the model for all of Europe. Yet, of the 230 pages of Arvanitet,
Kocollari devotes
only a few pages to non-military aspects
of the Arvanits, and only one chapter, the last one, is dedicated
exclusively
to their Albanian culture. That is much too little
for that portion of Greece's population that gave so much to the Greek
nation.
One of the rare examples that Koáallari does
cite is the opening of the first Greek school in Greece in 1821.
Referencing a Greek scientist, A. Vakalopullos, as well as an authentic
document signed by graduating students of that
Greek School, Koáollari presents the astonishing evidence that of the 8
students in
the first class, either 4 or 5 were
Albanians: "Among the eight names...there are the names of four
Albanians and, maybe,
even of a fifth one, about whom we
are not quite so sure - Kostandin Apostoli from Permeti, Jani Anastasi
from Kelcyra,
Jani Athanasi from Vithkuqi, Vasil
Xhelio, the Fratarian, Jani Zoi from Zagoria (we are not able to
certify if it is
Zagoria of Gjirokastra or Zagoria of Janina)."
pp.172-173.
In all other aspects, however, I believe that Koáollari's Arvanitet is
an important
contribution to the general body of
knowledge about the Albanians of Greece. It is well-written in clear
and simple
language, and the author avoids the danger
of falling victim to a chauvinism and nationalism faced by anyone who
undertakes
the responsibility of writing about
minorities in the Balkans. The book displays an admirable objectivity
and carefully
cites Greek authors and scientists as
sources for every "delicate" moment. It also advances the concept that
the two
nations of the Greeks and the Albanians
have almost always lived together in peace that they understood and
respected
each other, and that they believe that both
give-and-take are needed to become truly good neighbors. There is no
need to
create artificial conflicts between Greeks
and Albanians, as certain politicians on both sides have done, and
that, in the end,
both nations will surely find a way to live together in peace.
--- end forwarded text
___
Sps300
The Arberesh (Italo-Albanians)
<Picture>
The "Arberesh" were the Albanians who migrated to Italy in the fifteenth and
sixteenth centuries from many areas of the Balkans.
These migrations were mostly due to the takeover of their Balkan homelands the
Ottoman Turkish Empire. The Albanians of the fifteenth century lived in large
numbers of settlements in many areas of the Balkans that are today not normally
associated with modern Albanians.
Significant populations were centered around the area of today's country of
Albania: Kossovo, western Macedonea, and northern Epirus- the historic
homelands of this ethnic group and their progenators, the ancient Illyrian
tribes.
However, numerous settlements existed also in Thessaly, the Morea
(Peloponnese), Mani, near Athens, and various Aegean Islands, such as Andros,
Spetsai, Hydra and others. Many of these settlements took place as early as the
9th century but, the majority of Albanians in Greece came starting in the 12th
century as mercenaries for the Byzantines, Catalans, and various others. Later,
large numbers of Albanians were employed by Venice as light cavalry, the famous
"Stradiotti" to protect her seaport/forts along the coast of Greece, such as
Corone, Modone and Napulia.
In the hundred plus year period that the Ottomans took to subdue the various
parts of Greece and other Balkan areas, the Albanians, in the service of their
own feudal lords and clan chiefs or, as mercenaries for Venice, Naples and
various Byzantine despots, were the main warriors opposing the Turks in this
whole region.
As a result of their resistance, the Albanians incurred much greater wrath from
the invading Turks than did the native population of Greece and other ethnic
goups during the invasions.
The Arberesh therefore had much more reason to have to flee to another country,
and they did so, in huge numbers... to Italy.
They fled to Venice, Geona, Naples, and Sicily, where they formed their own
communities, villages and quarters in the larger cities. Many had hopes of
someday returning to their various homelands but, the Turkish domination lasted
500 years. In Italy, the Albanians in the more populated areas of the north and
in the larger cities, soon lost their distinctive cultural identity and
language.
However, those in the the south of Italy had settled mostly in isolated
mountain areas of Calabria and Sicily and of the 70 towns settled or
re-populated by the Arberesh, over half have retained characteristics of their
founding ancestors.
There are still some 300,000 Arberesh speaking people in southern Italy today
according to a recent government census.
The areas where the Arberesh of southern Italy had settled were also the
centers of the great Italian outward migrations of the late 19th and early 20th
centuries. It should be no great surprise that many "Italian" immigrants to
north and south America and Australia during this time had a second, often
"hidden" Arebersh heritage, sometimes only known by strange, often cryptic,
family legends and stories.
There were communities of Arberesh in the cities of New Orleans, New York,
Chicago, Madison, WI, upstate New York, Los Angeles and Sacramento until about
the time of World War II. <Picture> <Picture> <Picture> <Picture> <Picture>
The Italian Genealogy Homepage
Sasa N. Obrenovic
Athanasios A. Stathopoulos wrote in message
<35028770...@cc.ece.ntua.gr>...
>
>
>
>> EVEN NOSTRDAMUS PREDICTED THAT EUROPE WOULD BE SHOCKED WHEN ALBANIAN
FORCES
>> WOULD STORM ATHENS!
>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>
> Hahaha, with what? Their airforce? HAHHAHAHA! Their army? Even worse. With
With _both_ of their AIrcrafts? Look at military maps of Albania and You'll
see three or four military/non military airports :))))) with only one or two
radio-navigation systems. My good friend is pilot on Mig-29, sometime on
Prishtina military airport, and I know the facts... Dont worry :)
ARVANITI niko
ARVANITI niko
sp...@erols.com
ARVANITI niko wrote:
> From: sps...@aol.com (Sps300)
>
> The Arvanites: an Albanian "minority" in Greece?
>
> by Laurie Kain Hart*
> in Cultural Survival Quarterly, Summer, 1995 p59
> Cambridge, Massachusetts
> *Assistant Professor of Anthropology at Haverford College
>
Hey, I reposted it too! Great article, huh!
sp...@erols.com
Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
> I would consult Herodotus and Thucydides, rather than second-hand peddlers of
> half-digested snippets of classical education such as Kaplan.
I wholeheartedly agree. Kaplan is sloppy at best , intentionally misleading at
worst.
>
>
> You're welcome to consider Greek Arvanites Albanians of Greek conscience. But
> you're not entitled to call yourself an Arvaniti because you're Albanian.
>
He is entitled ot call himself as he likes and as his familiy's understanding
Carley
Nicholas Georgakopoulos wrote in message ...
>CHRISTOS THANDIS IS THE GREATEST GREEK SINGER EVER. NO OTHER MUSICIAN IN
>EUROPE INCLUDING< FYROM/YUGO/CROA/> can beat melody like that.
>
never heard of this singer...is there a website on him where I can download
some wave files?
Carley:-)
Nasty as I wanna be
kbe...@ptloma.edu
In article <karageor.29...@ucla.edu>,
kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
>
> In article <6ebpq1$aa7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> kbe...@ptloma.edu writes:
>
> >In article <karageor.29...@ucla.edu>,
> I would consult Herodotus
It is interesting how my ethics professor questioned the credibility of
Herodotus' accounts, when I tried to use some of his material to make a case
for cultural relativism. I personally trust in Herodotus' and if I have the
time I will look into the matter again. Though the "matter" does not matter.
> >> Are you sure you're Arvaniti?
>
> >yes! I am Albanian.
>
> Well, it appears you're a propagandist then. We Greeks, Arvanites included,
> call Albanians 'Alvani' NOT 'Arvanites'.
Brethren! I come before you today with a great revelation! The Albanians were
not always called "Albanians" but according to the British Encyclopedia they
were called "Arbanon/Arbanasa and Arvanitoi by the Greeks"
For better or worse, if you call an
> Arvaniti 'Alvane', you're liable to be, at the very least, verbally rebuked
> (probably worse).
Those who call themselves Arvanites today are not such.They have been
ruthlessly and efficiently assimilated. And they also have a twisted
definition of Albanians: They (just as some dim witted modern "Greeks")
think that Albanians are only the Muslims(whom their ancestors fought) and the
Catholics that live in
Albania. (conveniently forgetting the Orthodox Albanians who actually are
thier kin) Mr.Sedelhorm a Swedish diplomat charged with investigating the
ALbanian issue by the League of the Nations, made an interesting statement in
1922. He, quoted by the very Greek exPM P.Pipinelis, stated that "Even the
most
agressive philhellene in Albania will always admit that he belongs to the
proud race of the Skyipetars (poor Sedelhorm had some spelling problems)(the
quote is not exact as I do not have the book available at the moment).
Is this a propaganda? I do not think so.
>
> You're welcome to consider Greek Arvanites Albanians of Greek conscience.
But
> you're not entitled to call yourself an Arvaniti because you're Albanian.
I am entitled to call myself a descendant of the Arvanites, the Albanians who
decended in Greece from the North, and the Albanians who actually lived in the
North.
yours truly
me
Nikos Sarantakos
On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:36:51 -0600, kbe...@ptloma.edu wrote:
>Those who call themselves Arvanites today are not such.They have been
>ruthlessly and efficiently assimilated. And they also have a twisted
>definition of Albanians: They (just as some dim witted modern "Greeks")
>think that Albanians are only the Muslims(whom their ancestors fought) and the
>Catholics that live in
>Albania. (conveniently forgetting the Orthodox Albanians who actually are
>thier kin) Mr.Sedelhorm a Swedish diplomat charged with investigating the
>ALbanian issue by the League of the Nations, made an interesting statement in
>1922. He, quoted by the very Greek exPM P.Pipinelis, stated that "Even the
>most
>agressive philhellene in Albania will always admit that he belongs to the
>proud race of the Skyipetars (poor Sedelhorm had some spelling problems)(the
>quote is not exact as I do not have the book available at the moment).
>Is this a propaganda? I do not think so.
Seems you have muddled your sources, I am afraid.
The exPM Panayotis Pipinelis, with active participation in Greek
politics in the '50s and the '60s, is hardly likely to have been
quoted in 1922, when he was a youngster.
Mind you, I wouldn't quote MrPipinelis for anything, save perhaps
the day of the week (and then with reserves).
Nikos
ARVANITI niko
Relly Great article!
Thank You again Spasi!
Niko Arvaniti
ZITO KOSOVA KE CHAMURIA !
LIBERTY ALBANIAN POEPLE IN BALKAN !
GREAT NATION - GREAT HISTORY !
ARVANITI niko
Re Greek People!
Prepi na dhiavazete poli kala avto pu eqi grapsi historia
ja ton Alvaniki Lao- Megalo lao me Megalo Historia.
mehri tora ehum aku psema apo tin shovenistes.
Tora irthe kero ke ja ton Alvanon - na mazevete oli
se ena kratos ke na stamatisun na kopsun komatia apo tin
patridha mas pous kanune mehri tora.
Eci tha gjinete dhe Filia anamesa ton balkanikon laos !
Tha grapso kathemera ja na aniksete ke tha fotisete
Alithia ke mono alithia!
Evharisto ke apo tin Spasi ! Thank You again Spasi!
Niko Arvanitis
Sps300 wrote:
Subject: Re: N.EPIRUS is Greek.
Date: 14 Mar 1998 03:02:24 GMT
From: sps...@aol.com (Sps300)
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.albanian
History of the Byzantine Empire, Vol. II written by A.A. Vasiliev,
Dumbarton Oaks, Harvard University and published by the University of
Wisconsin Press in
1952, pp. 614-615.
"...a strong movement of the Albanians towards the south,...all over
middle Greece, the Peloponnesus, and many islands of the Aegean Sea.
This powerful stream of Albanian colonization is felt even today. A
German scholar of the first half of the nineteenth century, Fallmerayer,
came out with the astounding theory that the Greeks had been completely
exterminated by the Slavs and Albanians; 'not a single drop of pure
Hellenic blood flows in the veins
of the Christian population of modern Greece.' He wrote in the second
volume of his History of the Peninsula of Morea in the Middle Ages,
that, beginning with the second quarter of the fourteenth century, the
Greek-Slavs who inhabited Greece were displaced and crushed by Albanian
settlers, so that, in his opinion, the Greek revolution of the
nineteenth century which freed Greece
from the Turkish yoke, was in reality the work of Albanian
hands. Fallmerayer journeyed through Greece and found in Attica,
Boeotia, and the major part of the Peloponnesus a very great number of
Albanian settlers, who sometimes did not even understand Greek. If one
calls this country a new Albania wrote the same author, one gives it its
real name. Those provinces of the Greek Kingdom are no more closely
related to Hellenism than the Scotish Highlands are to the Afghan
sp...@erols.com
ARVANITI niko wrote:
> sp...@erols.com wrote:
> >
> > ARVANITI niko wrote:
> >
> > > From: sps...@aol.com (Sps300)
> > >
> > > The Arvanites: an Albanian "minority" in Greece?
> > >
> > > by Laurie Kain Hart*
> > > in Cultural Survival Quarterly, Summer, 1995 p59
> > > Cambridge, Massachusetts
> > > *Assistant Professor of Anthropology at Haverford College
> > >
> >
> > Hey, I reposted it too! Great article, huh!
>
> Relly Great article!
> Thank You again Spasi!
>
> Niko Arvaniti
>
> ZITO KOSOVA KE CHAMURIA !
> LIBERTY ALBANIAN POEPLE IN BALKAN !
> GREAT NATION - GREAT HISTORY !
Thank sps...@aol.com for posting this article from Laurie Hunt. It is
great.
Sps300
What is all this talk about the Arvaniti being assimilated into Greek culture?
I recently purchased a CD entitled "Arvanitic Songs" by Thanassis Moraitis. It
is a wonderful CD with authenic Arvanitika songs with Albanian lyrics. The CD
even contains a 64 page collection of historical and ethnological research by
Professor Aristides Kollias. Very interesting stuff about Albanian music in
Greece. I purchased this CD at Barnes and Noble Bookstore. I recommend it
highly.
Alex Seredin >
YOU WILL LEARN THE FACTS SOON ENOUGH!
Sps300
Niko, I have been trying to E-mail you but with no success. I wanted to show
you what the Italians say about Albanian migrations. If you would like to
speak, E-mail me your address.
sp...@erols.com
ARVANITI niko wrote:
> O thank You Sps300!
> Aristidis P.Kolias is my friend.
> Wat addrees have Your Store Music.
> Please tell mi in soc.culture.albanian.
> Sorry for my bad english!
>
> Tha su grapso me ena mesage ja tin zoi ke ergo
> ton Aristidi P.Kolia.
>
> regards
>
> NIKO ARVANITI
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image]
Barnes and Noble online is at:
http://members.tripod.com/~barnesandnoble/index.html
It is a bookstore with many US stores in different locations. They also sell by
maill catalogue and carry a lot of music.
Sps300
Niko, any Barnes and Noble Bookstore or Tower Records. I believe you can even
order the CD on line.
Kreshnik Bejko
Nikos Sarantakos wrote in message <350adc74...@news.innet.lu>...
>
>Seems you have muddled your sources, I am afraid.
>The exPM Panayotis Pipinelis, with active participation in Greek
>politics in the '50s and the '60s, is hardly likely to have been
>quoted in 1922, when he was a youngster.
No no, I quoted Sedelhorm in 1922. I read what Sedelhorm said in a book by
Pipinelis titled "Europe and the Albanian question" published by Argonaut
press, Chicago, 1963
The exact quote is from page68
"The most fervent Phillhelenes, even those who settled in Greece and fought
for her, often retain a power feeling for Albania, and are proud to belong
to the race of Shkyipetars"
Thank you mr Sedelhorm, and I thank the audience for their attention. I'll
be home for most of the day if you want autographs :)
kara...@ucla.edu
In article <350adc74...@news.innet.lu>,
sar...@innet.lu wrote:
>
> On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:36:51 -0600, kbe...@ptloma.edu wrote:
>
> >Those who call themselves Arvanites today are not such.They have been
> >ruthlessly and efficiently assimilated.
Neither you nor anybody else can decide whether those who call themselves
Arvanites are or are not what they call themselves.
Greek-Orthodox, Southern-Albanian speaking people who have resided
in the territory of what is today the Hellenic Republic and in
Pelagonia were NOT assimilated by anyone. THEY, themselves, actively
and affirmatively have amalgamated with other Greek-Orthodox populations
living in the same territories to make up the modern Hellenic nation.
Do you know what 'amalgamated' means? For over a hundred years now,
all these folks have been intermarrying much more than they have been
intra-marrying. They have become one modern nation, fused together
via their battles against common enemies, and via their development
of a common national conscience, a common national identity,
and a common national life.
An Arvaniti, properly so called, who does not think of him/herself
as a Greek is a contradiction in terms. Neither 'blood' relations, nor
similar or common language override distinctions in national conscience,
identity and practice.
> >And they also have a twisted
> >definition of Albanians: They (just as some dim witted modern "Greeks")
'dim witted' my foot, and loose the inverted commas around Greeks. The
distinction between 'Arvanites' and 'Alvanyi' is deeply ingrained in every
modern Greek's conscience, and most certainly in that of the Arvanites. The
ethnological and linguistic affinity between the Arvanites and SOME of the
Albanians are just that. They don't determine either one's national identity
and sentiment.
> >think that Albanians are only the Muslims(whom their ancestors fought) and
> >the Catholics that live in
> >Albania. (conveniently forgetting the Orthodox Albanians who actually are
> >their kin).
Nobody is forgetting anything, conveniently or inconveniently. The Arvanites,
like most modern Greeks, are aware of a myriad factors which make them 'kin'
to people who do not see themselves as Greeks. No matter, if they don't feel
like themselves, they are not counted as their 'kin'. The modern Hellenic
national community is not based on, nor depended on objective 'blood' or
'national' links. Common beliefs, common memories of historical struggles,
common identity, common national life, those count. The Arvanites were
quintessentially modern Greeks before it was 'in' to be so.
<snip>
You're not going to convince any modern Greek, Arvaniti or otherwise, to look
favorably on modern Albanians and their problems or wishes by claiming that
many modern Greeks are 'really' Albanians. This is a lost cause. Most of your
compatriots are doing the exact opposite (they're MUCH smarter than you). They
seek to JOIN the modern Greek nation, by presenting themselves and becoming
Arvanites, as opposed to Albanians. Qua Arvanites, i.e. qua Albanian-descended
and Albanian-speaking GREEKS, they MAY become accepted in the 'Helliniki
Omofulia'. Qua Albanians, not a chance in hell.
As for the Chams, they played and lost. They 'bet the farm' and lost it. If
INDIVIDUAL Chams have legal claims against the Greek state, let them pursue
them LEGALLY and individually before real, actual courts. The collaborators
got what they deserved, and their ancestors should be happy to be around. Let
them be good Albanian citizens, and work for the democratization and
normalization of Albania, instead of day-dreaming about 'reparations' and the
rest of it.
Stavros Karageorgis
sp...@erols.com
kara...@ucla.edu wrote:
As for the Chams, they played and lost. They 'bet the farm' and lost it. If INDIVIDUAL Chams have legal claims against the Greek state, let them pursue them LEGALLY and individually before real, actual courts. The collaborators got what they deserved, and their ancestors should be happy to be around. Let them be good Albanian citizens, and work for the democratization and normalization of Albania, instead of day-dreaming about 'reparations' and the rest of it. Stavros K
I think I finally figured out your philosophy:
An historic loss is a sealed future?
This particular post of yours is remarkable in its ingenious utilization
of theory to turn everyone Hellene. Becuase of intermarriage, for
example, you declare:
An Arvaniti, properly so called, who does not think of him/herself as a Greek is a contradiction in terms. Neither 'blood' relations, nor similar or common language override distinctions in national conscience, identity and practice
as if it were accepted dictum. And ya gotta play the hellenic game
to be allowed the name:
You're not going to convince any modern Greek, Arvaniti or otherwise, to look favorably on modern Albanians and their problems or wishes by claiming that many modern Greeks are 'really' Albanians. This is a lost cause. Most of your compatriots are doing the exact opposite (they're MUCH smarter than you). They seek to JOIN the modern Greek nation, by presenting themselves and becoming Arvanites, as opposed to Albanians. Qua Arvanites, i.e. qua Albanian-descended and Albanian-speaking GREEKS, they MAY become accepted in the 'Helliniki Omofulia'. Qua Albanians, not a chance in hell.
How about just simple, gentle acceptance? And what do you mean by
"reparations and the rest of it?" Are you talking about claims to
land such rights as are only afforded to "Greeks" and the one and only
becuase forced by treaty recognized minority "Turks"?
George Baloglou
>In article <karageor.29...@ucla.edu>,
> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
>>
>
>> That is obviously what you BELIEVE. But this belief is not supported by
>> anything. We are no more than at best 10% the 'same people' as the ancient
>> Hellenes. And YET, we are overwhelmingly Hellenic in our conscience and
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> practice. And that's what counts.
>^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>I agree.Hellenic in conscience and practise is the entire world thanks to a
Stavros associates "Hellenic" with "Helleniki Dimokratia" (present-day
Republic of Greece), you associate "Hellenic" with ancient Hellas; recall
that the Greek term for "Greece" is "Hellas", etc etc.
>Macedonian barbarian, who though not allowed to compete in the Olympic games
>because he was not of pure blood, embraced the Greek values and spread them
>from Macedonia to India. In conscience and practise we are all Helenes. All
>that are left for a resident of Greece today, to make him think that he/she is
>a pure Hellene , and to distinguish him from the others, are the vices of the
>Greeks. Their virtues and their ideals, perpetuated both by Rome and the
>Arabic countries, reside today in us all. Thus, a Greek in the 20th century,
>if he thinks he/she is a pure Helene, is only the sum of the many vices of the
>Helenes (racism, xenophobia, misogynia etc etc)
There is one thing that brings the contemporary Greek close to ancient
Hellas and that he/she does not share with others: linguistic affinity,
which you very conveniently overlook. [I know, you are going to say that
there is nothing in common between ancient and modern Greek, etc etc;
well, I will not even argue with someone who does not have a reasonably
solid knowledge of (all) Greek on that -- I will simply say, and I hope
you can understand this, that it is that language's survival and tenacity
that made virtually every educated Albanian speak Greek less than a
century ago.]
As for "Greek vices", are you so certain that they are unique to the
Greeks? When did Albania have a large population of foreign workers to
prove her people's lack of xenophobia, for example? And when it comes to
women .. . I very much prefer a Greek "misogynist" over a non-racist
Albanian who rapes a Greek woman in front of her family etc etc
>Yours truly
>Kreshnik the Arvanite
Try to think of the future and how you can contribute to the improvement
of life in the Balkans and, in particular, Albania. Stop worrying about
the composition of Greek blood and all that, and let those who define
themselves as Greeks be Greeks. And do not think *too* highly of your lot,
because even that traditional "besa" concept seems to be endangered in
Albania nowadays ... [You know that "besa" is used in Greek, right?]
George Baloglou -- http://www.oswego.edu/~baloglou
(broadcasting from the southeastern shores of Lake Ontario)
"H Pwmavia ki' av enepacev av8ei kai fepei ki' allo"
"Even though it faded, Hellenism blooms and branches out again"
Frank George Valoczy
The facts.
Albanian Air Force (according to IISS Military Balance 95-96)
Fighters:
30 J-7 (Chinese-built MiG-21)
20-30 J-6 (Chinese MiG-19)
20-30 MiG-17 and MiG-15
Several Mi-1, Mi-2, Mi-4 helicopters
Li-2 (Soviet built DC-3) transport aircraft
Yak-11, MiG-15UTI trainers.
Albanian Army
around 600 Main Battle Tanks: T-34, T-54, T-59 (Chinese T-55)
Around 400 other Armoured Vehicles: 10 BRDM-1; BA-64, Chinese APCs
88, 100, 122, 130mm artillery
SA-1 and SA-2 SAMs.
Some ground-based radar systems have recently been purchased from the USA.
Albanian Navy:
Bases at Durresi, Vlora, Shengjini
3 Soviet 'Whiskey' class diesel-electric submarines (only 2 operational)
39 Chinese fast torpedo boats
4 Arcor speedboats (made in USA 1992, armed with 12.7mm MG)
around 40-50 other small patrol boats and minesweepers.
This is a summary of what is contained in Military Balance 1995-1996.
Judging from this, Albania is not in a position to make any attack.
The airforce is not very well trained, pilots getting ver little flying
time due to limited fuel, and the aircraft are not very well maintained,
due to lack of money for parts. It is estimated that only about half of
the inventory of the Albanian Air Force is serviceable. The same applies
to the army.
---Feri
Kreshnik Bejko
George Baloglou wrote in message <6emtpa$g...@panix3.panix.com>...
>In article <6e9tvb$8pa$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> kbe...@ptloma.edu writes:
>
Listen ye Greeks! I have got nothing against you or your people. After all
you are hosting half of our work force and for this I am greatful. We've
lived together for millenia now (us as "barbarians" and you as "civilised"
people) and I do not see why not have a friendly and EQUITABLE relationship.
What I do not appreciate are idiotic claims such as those of Zissiadis or
Paraskevas. N.Epirus will never go to Greece because very few people want it
to. Albanians account for merely 5% (Paraskevas added a 0 to this figure) of
the crimes in Greece according to a study from your own ministry of
interior. As long as you drop these claims and allegations I am fine. My
getting into this discussion about NE was simply a reaction to Zissiades and
Paraskevas. I am prepared to fight slandereres with every means at my
disposal (in this case information). I am not claiming Northen Greece nor am
I claiming that Albanians are angels. I simply expect Greeks to behave as
Europeans and not as Balkanians (The Economist and many EU diplomats think
you have failed in this respect). I also expect Greeks to respect Albanians
because they deserve it (only to think the hardships we've had to overcome
should induce some respect in a sensible person). Thus in conclusion I will
say that if you want to be identified with the Hellenes, Ionians, Dorians,
Achaeans, Spartans, as long as you drop any claims on Albania and Albanians,
and as long as you give us the respect we are due as long-suffering HUMAN
BEINGS, I am fine.
Peace
KB
C. Evangelinos
"Kreshnik Bejko" <KBE...@prodigy.net> writes:
> Listen ye Greeks! I have got nothing against you or your people.
Then you surely suffer from acute schizophrenia judging from the
content of what you have posted to Usenet on the subject. The excuse
of responding to heated arguments doesn't hold water - you wouldn't
have written all you have written hadn't you really believed them deep
down.
> After all
> you are hosting half of our work force and for this I am greatful.
You surely have a great way of showing it...
> We've
> lived together for millenia now (us as "barbarians" and you as "civilised"
> people) and I do not see why not have a friendly and EQUITABLE relationship.
Judging from your postings you have a very weird perception of what is
"equitable".
> What I do not appreciate are idiotic claims such as those of Zissiadis or
> Paraskevas. N.Epirus will never go to Greece because very few people want it
> to.
Well then respond to them and them *only* with arguments targeted at
them, not all Greeks. And leave people like half of family out of the
conversation and the subject of your postings.
> Albanians account for merely 5% (Paraskevas added a 0 to this figure) of
> the crimes in Greece according to a study from your own ministry of
> interior.
What you forgot to add was that they account for a much larger
percentage of all *violent* and *attention*catching* crimes (murders
in cold blood, rapes etc.) Unlike others I will not attribute this to
any inherent trait of Albanians - it's just that with prisons opened
up after the fall of communism it was logical for a lot of Albanian
*criminals* to cross the border into Greece where there was much more
opportunity for getting rich the easy way. We now have an Albania
"Mafia" in Greece, in addition to the Rumanian, Russian and lesser
ones from other countries. In fact it appears the Greek crime
organizations have largely been overshadowed by their foreign
equivalents these days. That's not a nice position for any country to
find itself at and unfortunately the mass media chose the easy way of
demonizing most foreigners instead of concentrating on the *real*
problem caused by the criminal elements among them. That of course
means that your average grandma in Greece will be afraid of Albanians
not because she had any dealing with them in the past but because of
the media attention. And that is sad as a lot of the Albanians (and
other foreigners) in Greece are hard working decent people. However
just as it is bad for people to generalize and make all Albanians
criminals it is equally bad for people like you to try and marginalize
a *real* problem: There is a *considerable* percentage of Albanians in
Greece that (due to the circumstances of their being able to get out
of jail etc. and not some inherent trait of the Albanians - I
emphasize once again lest I get misinterpreted) are criminals and act
in coordination with gangs in Albania to smuggle drugs, guns and
underage girls into Greece. There are Albanian criminals that gun down
tourist resorts in Corfu and then take refuge with their speed-boats
in Albanian territorial waters where the Greek police force can't get
to them without you people crying "wolf" because of the deep fear you
have that even a police operation such as this is in fact an
occupation move. And don't bother lying about this too - I have a
hobby of checking your mailing list from time to time and the amount
of paranoia and nationalist misinformation I've seen when you people
discuss Greece is beyond any imagination.
> As long as you drop these claims and allegations I am fine. My
> getting into this discussion about NE was simply a reaction to Zissiades and
> Paraskevas. I am prepared to fight slandereres with every means at my
> disposal (in this case information).
Or misinformation and misrepresentation of facts, don't be shy. We've
all read your stuff and I've had to suffer through it through personal
e-mail a few months ago. ;->
> I am not claiming Northen Greece nor am
> I claiming that Albanians are angels. I simply expect Greeks to behave as
> Europeans and not as Balkanians (The Economist and many EU diplomats think
> you have failed in this respect).
The Economist rarely if ever will say anything positive about Greece,
Albania or any other Balkan country for that matter. Might be related
on the people that cover the area for the magazine if you get my point.
> I also expect Greeks to respect Albanians
> because they deserve it (only to think the hardships we've had to overcome
> should induce some respect in a sensible person).
Some of us respect those of you that deserve it. That doesn't include
people like you and Mr. (Trombas :-) Traboini and worse still ilk from
your mailing list that will raise claims on us, even going to the
length of calling us brothers in the sense that Arvanites are one and
the same with Albanians.
> Thus in conclusion I will
> say that if you want to be identified with the Hellenes, Ionians, Dorians,
> Achaeans, Spartans, as long as you drop any claims on Albania and Albanians,
A country that doesn't include a part of Greece and a group that much
to your dismay does not include the vast majority of Arvanites as they
don't identify with you. If some Greeks want a piece of your land deal
with *them*, stop bothering the rest of us.
> and as long as you give us the respect we are due as long-suffering HUMAN
> BEINGS, I am fine.
My respect to those many Albanians who deserve it - not you.
> Peace
I'd tell you to get lost but obviously you have an agenda and a
purpose. I don't have the time to deal with scum like you (I've got a
Ph.D. to finish) and the misinformation they post about half of my
family going back generations and the fools (Galina and ilk) that
believe in the crap you write. Fortunately Stavros and others have
both the knowledge and the ability to convey it so that both Greek
nationalist hysteria (that has this silly need to speak of "blood"
and "purity" etc.) and your similar garbage can be answered
properly. I'm positive though that however many time you're told to
lay off the Arvanites because whatever common DNA you may share they
do not identify with you as an *Albanian* you will come back with the
same garbage again and again because the idea that all Albanian (or
-derivative) speaking people are (unredeemed and in some cases "in
danger of getting lost") Albanians is *ingrained* in your national
ideology.(*) Just like claiming that the Arvanite heros of the Greek
Revolution were in fact *Albanians* that for some "charitable" reason
would fight and give their lives even for the formation of a Greek and
not an Albanian state. But you cannot see the stupidity of such an
argument because you do not want to.
I have no time to get involved in further debate on the subject,
especially given that you have shown to be beyond reason. You have
your agenda and will pursue it.
Constantinos
PS> To all those that bother responding to you, good luck - you'll
waste KB upon KB to no avail.
(*) Same with the idea that all Romance speaking people are Rumanians,
all Bulgarian/SlavMacedonian speakers Bulgarians/SlavMacedonians
etc. Hence we'll always get the same stuff from the same people from
neighboring countries here.
Nikos Sarantakos
On 18 Mar 1998 12:05:47 -0500, ce...@urania.cfm.brown.edu (C.
Evangelinos) wrote:
>
>> I am not claiming Northen Greece nor am
>> I claiming that Albanians are angels. I simply expect Greeks to behave as
>> Europeans and not as Balkanians (The Economist and many EU diplomats think
>> you have failed in this respect).
>
>The Economist rarely if ever will say anything positive about Greece,
>Albania or any other Balkan country for that matter. Might be related
>on the people that cover the area for the magazine if you get my point.
Let me add by the way that in the recent Balkan survey
of the Economist, Greece was
not considered as a Balkan country and was not
included in the articles.
kbe...@ptloma.edu
In article <351012da...@news.innet.lu>,
sar...@innet.lu wrote:
> Let me add by the way that in the recent Balkan survey
> of the Economist, Greece was
> not considered as a Balkan country and was not
> included in the articles.
oh really? Please read the below
Taken from: "Economist" 9/17/94, Vol. 332 Issue 7881, p59+
"DESPITE 13 years in the European Union and hand-outs now worth $6 billion a
year, Greece still seems to belong more to the volatile Balkans than to
Western Europe. First the Greeks exasperated their EU partners by their
casual approach to European obligations, their slowness in implementing
directives and their hostility to better EU relations with Turkey. At one
stage, a frustrated Jacques Delors, president of the European Commission,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
said he would be happy to see Greece leave.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The only reason why Greece is a member of the EU is its name!
(I luv laconic language:)
Sps300
Greece is a country of "closet Greeks."
kbe...@ptloma.edu
In article <qx4t0wy...@urania.cfm.brown.edu>,
ce...@urania.cfm.brown.edu (C. Evangelinos) wrote:
>
> "Kreshnik Bejko" <KBE...@prodigy.net> writes:
>
> > Listen ye Greeks! I have got nothing against you or your people.
>
> Then you surely suffer from acute schizophrenia judging from the
> content of what you have posted to Usenet on the subject. The excuse
> of responding to heated arguments doesn't hold water - you wouldn't
> have written all you have written hadn't you really believed them deep
> down.
Allow me to say again that I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST THE GREEKS. What I am
against, and what I reacted to, is the postings of two idiots whom I dont
think represent common Greeks. I employed the same language they used in order
to get accross my message which is: "Let Albania be!"
>
> > We've
> > lived together for millenia now (us as "barbarians" and you as "civilised"
> > people) and I do not see why not have a friendly and EQUITABLE
relationship.
>
> Judging from your postings you have a very weird perception of what is
> "equitable".
"Judge and ye shall be judged. Let him who hath no sin cast the first stone"
> Well then respond to them and them *only* with arguments targeted at
> them, not all Greeks. And leave people like half of family out of the
> conversation and the subject of your postings.
Since they were arguing about alleged, nonexistent, Greek supremacy over
Albanians, I had to prove that in no way you are superior to us.
> > Albanians account for merely 5% (Paraskevas added a 0 to this figure) of
> > the crimes in Greece according to a study from your own ministry of
> > interior.
>
> What you forgot to add was that they account for a much larger
> percentage of all *violent* and *attention*catching* crimes
According to the Greek Helsinki Federation, the "attention" of the entire
Greek media has been unjustly turned towards crimes Albanian commit, thus
purposefully creating albanophobia, and contributing to reprehensible
attitudes such as those of geeks Zissiades and Paraskevas.
We now have an Albania
> "Mafia" in Greece,
It is interesting how many anti-drug traffic agencies report that the so
called "Albanian mafia" in Greece is an apprentice of the Greek one. Albanian
newspapers not long ago reported that some 400 Greeks through cell phones run
the drug and weapons smuggling from Albania. It is not by accident that every
time a shipment of illcit good is intercepted by your police a greek will be
arrested along with the Albanians.
unfortunately the mass media chose the easy way of
> demonizing most foreigners instead of concentrating on the *real*
> problem caused by the criminal elements among them. That of course
> means that your average grandma in Greece will be afraid of Albanians
> not because she had any dealing with them in the past but because of
> the media attention.
How true!
And that is sad as a lot of the Albanians (and
> other foreigners) in Greece are hard working decent people. However
There are Albanian criminals that gun down
> tourist resorts in Corfu and then take refuge with their speed-boats
> in Albanian territorial waters where the Greek police force can't get
> to them without you people crying "wolf" because of the deep fear you
> have that even a police operation such as this is in fact an
> occupation move.
International law prohibits unathorised activity in any foreign soil. It is
true people are paranoid, but is JUSTIFIED PARANOIA. I am 100% sure Greece,
whether directly or indirectly, had somthing to do with the unrest of last
year. (what business did Krandiotis have with the so called "rebels" in
Gjirokaster, Sarande?) How come the notorious Zani of Vlora, a convict
sentenced for life and serving in a Greek jail, escapes from a high security
prison in Greece to return in Albania and take over the
"rebellion/revolution". Is it really so easy for "subhumans" such as
Albanians, to escape from a high security penitentiary in a EU member country?
That is why our paranoia is justified. If you wishes us well it should do the
utmost not to feed our paranoia, not bust UN embargoes on Serbia, not to loan
Serbia $100 million, not to buy 20% of the Serb Telecom. Only if and when you
do these Albanians will loose their justification, and only in this case you
could have the moral right of accusing us of "crying wolf" for no reason.
> Or misinformation and misrepresentation of facts, don't be shy. We've
> all read your stuff and I've had to suffer through it through personal
> e-mail a few months ago. ;->
I hardly think the reports of third parties on "l'Albanie de la Greece", such
as those of a Swedish diplomat, are misinformation. That so far has been the
only info I have provided because of time constraints
>
> The Economist rarely if ever will say anything positive about Greece,
> Albania or any other Balkan country for that matter.
Really, how about Jackques Delors?
M
> Some of us respect those of you that deserve it. That doesn't include
> people like you and Mr. (Trombas :-) Traboini and worse still ilk from
> your mailing list that will raise claims on us, even going to the
> length of calling us brothers in the sense that Arvanites are one and
> the same with Albanians.
Hey the Arvanites WERE the same as Albanians! Whether they are still now, it
is disputable. However, we will fight for the credit we deserve for the part
we played in the Greek revolution. When Byron wrote in Childe Harold
"Fierce are Albania's children,
....where is the foe that ever saw their back?"
he was refering to Marko Bocari's Suliotes. There is not arguing with this.
> A country that doesn't include a part of Greece and a group that much
> to your dismay does not include the vast majority of Arvanites as they
> don't identify with you.
If you are refering to Albania then to be exact those part of northern greece
inhabited by Albanians belong to Albania. Now you may have cleansed Janina and
Preveza from Albanians, but we will remind you of the fact, and the restituion
of Cham property has not been solved yet.
> > and as long as you give us the respect we are due as long-suffering HUMAN
> > BEINGS, I am fine.
>
> My respect to those many Albanians who deserve it - not you.
well, I dont think I have done anything not to deserve respect. However, you
are entitled to your opinion. As far as I concerned I will DENOUNCE and
CONDEMN any pernicious attempt to cheat Albanians of the credit they deserve
in history. THIS IS MY AGENDA! There's no more to my fervent argumenting,
except perhaps for my love of debate. Now you may not respect me for this....
well... so be it.
May you live long and prosper (or Tungjatjeta!)
KB
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <6eplmf$3c2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> kbe...@ptloma.edu writes:
<snip>
> "Let Albania be!"
Gladly. So long as that Albania doesn't include sovereing territory of the
Hellenic Republic, as you clearly state below.
<snip>
>> What you forgot to add was that they account for a much larger
>> percentage of all *violent* and *attention*catching* crimes
>According to the Greek Helsinki Federation, the "attention" of the entire
>Greek media has been unjustly turned towards crimes Albanian commit, thus
>purposefully creating albanophobia, and contributing to reprehensible
>attitudes such as those of geeks Zissiades and Paraskevas.
The Greek Helsinki Monitor is not the 'bible' on anything, and no, they are
neither objective nor without an agenda. In any case, Evangelinos agreed with
you on how poorly Greek media have been informing the Greek public on this
matter.
<snip>
> I am 100% sure Greece,
>whether directly or indirectly, had somthing to do with the unrest of last
>year. (what business did Krandiotis have with the so called "rebels" in
>Gjirokaster, Sarande?)
Gee, maybe that they were Greek Orthodox?
>How come the notorious Zani of Vlora, a convict
>sentenced for life and serving in a Greek jail, escapes from a high security
>prison in Greece to return in Albania and take over the
>"rebellion/revolution". Is it really so easy for "subhumans" such as
>Albanians, to escape from a high security penitentiary in a EU member country?
>That is why our paranoia is justified.
No paranoia is ever justified.
> If you wish us well you should do the
>utmost not to feed our paranoia,
Get out of town, man. You really have a high opinion of yourself and your
fellow Albanians. Why should Greeks and Greece give a hoot about your
paranoias? They're yours, you deal with them.
> not bust UN embargoes on Serbia, not to loan
>Serbia $100 million, not to buy 20% of the Serb Telecom.
Are you on drugs? So, Greek foreign policy and Greek business activity should
toe the line of paranoid Albanians? Get a grip, man!
> Only if and when you
>do these Albanians will loose their justification, and only in this case you
>could have the moral right of accusing us of "crying wolf" for no reason.
We don't care about what you think. We don't need you. You certainly need us
and our capital. Act accordingly.
<snip>
>> Some of us respect those of you that deserve it. That doesn't include
>> people like you and Mr. (Trombas :-) Traboini and worse still ilk from
>> your mailing list that will raise claims on us, even going to the
>> length of calling us brothers in the sense that Arvanites are one and
>> the same with Albanians.
>Hey the Arvanites WERE the same as Albanians!
Prove it. How so? Did they have the same conscience? Did they fight on the
same side?
> Whether they are still now, it
>is disputable.
By paranoid Albanians such as yourself? Who cares?
>However, we will fight for the credit we deserve for the part
>we played in the Greek revolution. When Byron wrote in Childe Harold
> "Fierce are Albania's children,
> ....where is the foe that ever saw their back?"
>he was refering to Marko Bocari's Suliotes. There is not arguing with this.
They and you are two different 'animals'. Your DNA and linguistic connection
did not lead to national unity between YOU and them. Get over it.
>> A country that doesn't include a part of Greece and a group that much
>> to your dismay does not include the vast majority of Arvanites as they
>> don't identify with you.
>If you are refering to Albania then to be exact those part of northern greece
>inhabited by Albanians belong to Albania.
So, now you're making territorial claims on Greece? It didn't take long for
your real agenda to come out, did it?
> Now you may have cleansed Janina and
>Preveza from Albanians, but we will remind you of the fact, and the restituion
>of Cham property has not been solved yet.
Yeah, keep dreaming. Collaborating with the occupying enemy nullifies any
property claims.
>> > and as long as you give us the respect we are due as long-suffering HUMAN
>> > BEINGS, I am fine.
>> My respect to those many Albanians who deserve it - not you.
>well, I dont think I have done anything not to deserve respect. However, you
>are entitled to your opinion. As far as I concerned I will DENOUNCE and
>CONDEMN any pernicious attempt to cheat Albanians of the credit they deserve
>in history. THIS IS MY AGENDA! There's no more to my fervent argumenting,
>except perhaps for my love of debate. Now you may not respect me for this....
>well... so be it.
Oh, bullshit. Your agenda is Greek territory. COME AND GET IT, you fierce
Albanian liberator. Then you'll see on whose side the Arvanites will be. TRY
IT!
>May you live long and prosper (or Tungjatjeta!)
>KB
Georgios Tsoukalas
kbe...@ptloma.edu wrote:
>
> In article <karageor.29...@ucla.edu>,
> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
> >
>
> > That is obviously what you BELIEVE. But this belief is not supported by
> > anything. We are no more than at best 10% the 'same people' as the ancient
> > Hellenes. And YET, we are overwhelmingly Hellenic in our conscience and
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > practice. And that's what counts.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I agree.Hellenic in conscience and practise is the entire world thanks to a
> because he was not of pure blood, embraced the Greek values and spread them
> from Macedonia to India.
That is ther wrong Alexander, it was Alexander the I if I am not
mistaken. And
all men had to be subjected to this test and if they pass they are
allowed
to compete. If nothing else, he did pass and was considered Greek. And
in ancient
Greece they were a lot more strict. For example all judges were isolated
from the
community for a significant period and took an oath to ensure they would
be objective.
> In conscience and practise we are all Helenes.
This is very flatering to Greeks. More so by somebody that does not know
that there is more of ancient Greece, ie it includes Macedonia. In fact
these
sound like words uttered by great men/women. In fact they only sound
that way
because they are taken out of context.
> All
> that are left for a resident of Greece today, to make him think that he/she is
> a pure Hellene , and to distinguish him from the others, are the vices of the
> Greeks. Their virtues and their ideals, perpetuated both by Rome and the
> Arabic countries, reside today in us all. Thus, a Greek in the 20th century,
> if he thinks he/she is a pure Helene, is only the sum of the many vices of the
> Helenes (racism, xenophobia, misogynia etc etc)
Pretty stupid point if I may add. For your information, for me what it
is to be
Greek are My language, religeon, country of origin, history, decendence
and my culture.
I speak Greek, I am a Greek Orthodox, I have lived for a while in Greece
and have been
born to Greek parents. This does not make me any more special than any
other person
on earth, but it makes Me Greek. (Others may feel Greek for differemt
reasons) When Greeks
do something wrong, I am embarased, when they do something right I am
proud.
>
> Yours truly
Not realy
> Kreshnik the Arvanite
>
> > <snip>^2
--
__o (__) """""
_'\<,_ oo ) ( O O )
---(_)/_(_)-----"Gotta have a cow man"---|_/\ -----oOOO--(_)--OOOo----
_--_|\ George Tsoukalas email: g.tso...@unsw.edu.au __|__~~~~~
/ \ School of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering | ~~~~~
\_.--.*/ University Of New South Wales ~~~~~~~~~~
V PH: +612 9385 6159 FAX: +612 9663 1222 .oooO ~~~~~~~~~~
_o ( ) Oooo.
--------O>O ----"In search of a witty quote"----------\ (----( )-----
\_) ) /
(_/
bomberman
Niko don't be stupid and use your brain, if you have it anyway, and think
before you write anything!!!!
ARVANITI niko wrote in message <350AC1...@pop.erols.com>...
>Sasa N. Obrenovic wrote:
>
>> > Hahaha, with what? Their airforce? HAHHAHAHA! Their army? Even worse.
With
>>
>> With _both_ of their AIrcrafts? Look at military maps of Albania and
You'll
>> see three or four military/non military airports :))))) with only one or
two
>> radio-navigation systems. My good friend is pilot on Mig-29, sometime on
>> Prishtina military airport, and I know the facts... Dont worry :)
>
> Your friend is serv ?! Its killers serb? Its criminal poeple?
> Dont worry...
>
> Niko Arvaniti
>
>
>Serbs its killers!
>
Nikos Sarantakos
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:58:32 -0600, kbe...@ptloma.edu wrote:
>In article <351012da...@news.innet.lu>,
> sar...@innet.lu wrote:
>
>> Let me add by the way that in the recent Balkan survey
>> of the Economist, Greece was
>> not considered as a Balkan country and was not
>> included in the articles.
>
>oh really? Please read the below
Really. Do you doubt that?
>
>Taken from: "Economist" 9/17/94, Vol. 332 Issue 7881, p59+
I had read it when it was news, not now when it is history.
If you are reading this newspaper you cannot have failed to
remark the marked shift in attitude against Greece
after the current PM took office.
Moreover, it is the pinnacle of idiocy to post articles
extracted from old newspapers [Economist is considered as one]
about a matter of today -and it proves that Mr. kbejko
unlike first impressions and/or his assertions is not a
good faith poster but a sponsored propagandist.
ns
kbe...@ptloma.edu
In article <karageor.30...@ucla.edu>,
> <snip>
>
> > "Let Albania be!"
>
> Gladly. So long as that Albania doesn't include sovereing territory of the
> Hellenic Republic, as you clearly state below.
Albania does not include any territory of the "Hellenic Republic". It used to
under the vilayet of Janina, which as you know was one of the four Albaniann
vilayets (the others being the vilayets of Shkodra, Kosova, and Manastir)
> The Greek Helsinki Monitor is not the 'bible' on anything, and no, they are
> neither objective nor without an agenda. In any case, Evangelinos agreed
with
> you on how poorly Greek media have been informing the Greek public on this
> matter.
No comment!
>
> <snip>
>
> > I am 100% sure Greece,
> >whether directly or indirectly, had somthing to do with the unrest of last
> >year. (what business did Krandiotis have with the so called "rebels" in
> >Gjirokaster, Sarande?)
>
> Gee, maybe that they were Greek Orthodox?
Then why send the foreign undersecretary and not clergy? huh? Is there a
separation of church and state in Greece, or not? Who has given Greece the
authority to deal with Orthodox Christians other than Greek citizens? And you
say there's no room for paranoia! What a crock of BS!
>
> No paranoia is ever justified.
I have given enough reasons for it! To make it worse your Ministry of
Education is pushing its Albanian counterpart to add the Greek languange in
our high school curricula all over the country. And I've been thinking for 24
hrs and could not find a less paranoid reason than an attempt at accomplishing
the "Megali Idhea"
> > If you wish us well you should do the
> >utmost not to feed our paranoia,
>
> Get out of town, man. You really have a high opinion of yourself and your
> fellow Albanians. Why should Greeks and Greece give a hoot about your
> paranoias? They're yours, you deal with them.
well it seemed like Evangelides was complaining!
>
> > not bust UN embargoes on Serbia, not to loan
> >Serbia $100 million, not to buy 20% of the Serb Telecom.
>
> Are you on drugs? So, Greek foreign policy and Greek business activity
should toe the line of paranoid Albanians? Get a grip, man!
No, you get a grip! The entire world imposes sanctions on a murderous nation
and YOU BUST THEM!! This is highly immoral to say the least. This means
Greeks have indirectly contributed to massacres such as those in Srbrenica
and Drenica.
> We don't care about what you think. We don't need you. You certainly need us
> and our capital. Act accordingly.
We do need your capital but it seems your government purposefully directs this
capital in areas where known Greek minority resides while refusing to invest
further north. Why dont they even it up a little?
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Some of us respect those of you that deserve it. That doesn't include
> >> people like you and Mr. (Trombas :-) Traboini and worse still ilk from
> >> your mailing list that will raise claims on us, even going to the
> >> length of calling us brothers in the sense that Arvanites are one and
> >> the same with Albanians.
>
> >Hey the Arvanites WERE the same as Albanians!
>
> Prove it. How so? Did they have the same conscience? Did they fight on the
> same side?
Didnt I just give you a quote from Sederholm? You want more? Fine! You shall
have more. God what an insatiable appetite for knowledge! I like it.
>
>
> >However, we will fight for the credit we deserve for the part
> >we played in the Greek revolution. When Byron wrote in Childe Harold
>
> > "Fierce are Albania's children,
> > ....where is the foe that ever saw their back?"
>
> >he was refering to Marko Bocari's Suliotes. There is not arguing with this.
>
> They and you are two different 'animals'.
Watch your mouth mr Scholar! This language is unbecoming to illustrious people
like you
Your DNA and linguistic connection
> did not lead to national unity between YOU and them. Get over it.
DNA? How is Albanian DNA different from Greek DNA or Hindu DNA? It did not lea
to national unity? But of course! The Greek revolution was sort of a
fratricidal war for the Albanians (remember Albanians are defined as those who
speak the Albanian langage. Religion is not a qualification for being
Albanian since Albanians belong to both Christian and Moslem faiths)
>
> >If you are refering to Albania then to be exact those part of northern
greece
> >inhabited by Albanians belong to Albania.
>
> So, now you're making territorial claims on Greece? It didn't take long for
> your real agenda to come out, did it?
I am sorry! Did I say "IS"? I ment to say "WAS". You see the territory of
Greece today is all yours de facto et de jure. There's no arguing with that.
Enjoy it with my blessing! (just restitute the Cham properties)
>
> > Now you may have cleansed Janina and
> >Preveza from Albanians, but we will remind you of the fact, and the
restituion
> >of Cham property has not been solved yet.
>
> Yeah, keep dreaming. Collaborating with the occupying enemy nullifies any
> property claims.
Blah blah!
> >well, I dont think I have done anything not to deserve respect. However,
you
> >are entitled to your opinion. As far as I concerned I will DENOUNCE and
> >CONDEMN any pernicious attempt to cheat Albanians of the credit they
deserve
> >in history. THIS IS MY AGENDA! There's no more to my fervent argumenting,
> >except perhaps for my love of debate. Now you may not respect me for
this....
> >well... so be it.
>
> Oh, bullshit. Your agenda is Greek territory.
Keep you goddamned territory! I dont want it! No Albanian wants it!
COME AND GET IT, you fierce
> Albanian liberator. Then you'll see on whose side the Arvanites will be. TRY
> IT!
On whose side the Albanians we'll be? I thought there were no ethnic Albanians
in Greece. You see dear Karageorges, an Arvanite in 1998 I am affraid is a
contradiction in terms. It wasnt so a few decades ago, but as you know your
lot and fate have done a good job of assimilation as the Ethnologic Database
suggests.
kbe...@ptloma.edu
In article <3510c819...@news.innet.lu>,
sar...@innet.lu wrote:
>
> I had read it when it was news, not now when it is history.
> If you are reading this newspaper you cannot have failed to
> remark the marked shift in attitude against Greece
> after the current PM took office.
There's a proverb in Albania which goes "The wolf may change the color of his
fur, but never his ways".(I hate this proverb because it alludes to obstinancy
as you pointedly remarked in an earlier post of yours) Personally I'd be happy
if there has been a shift in EU attitude towards Greece. Good for you!
However, Macedonia is still called FYROM, and EU is known to be lenient in
many matters ever since there has been a notable decline in European
nationalism (which may after all be a good thing). You see Sarantakos, Balkans
have not evolved beyond nationalism yet, and Greek attitude in establishing
partners and allies is still dragged along the lines of nationalism.
> Mr. kbejko
> unlike first impressions and/or his assertions is not a
> good faith poster but a sponsored propagandist.
Please qualify thy claim. What kind of sponsored propaganda am I
disseminating? I am sorry I have given you this impression. The truth is I am
more concerned with the truth rather than propaganda. And the truth is that
for some reason Albanians are being denied the historical credit that they are
due. I am simply against that, and of course against any claim of Greek
supremacy over Albanians, which I am sure it is a view that you do not
espouse.
Regards
Kreshnik Bejko
> ns
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <6ersv6$6nk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> kbe...@ptloma.edu writes:
<snip>
>I have given enough reasons for it! To make it worse your Ministry of
>Education is pushing its Albanian counterpart to add the Greek languange in
>our high school curricula all over the country. And I've been thinking for 24
>hrs and could not find a less paranoid reason than an attempt at accomplishing
>the "Megali Idhea"
No need for that. Just allow private or community primary and secondary
bilingual (in X language PLUS ALBANIAN) schools to open anywhere in Albania.
Those Albanian citizens who wish their children to attend a Greek-Albanian
bilingual elementary, junior high, or high school can vote with their
currency. No need for other Albanian citizens to be asked to contribute, nor
for the Greek government to get involved in Albania's internal affairs.
<snip>
>> We don't care about what you think. We don't need you. You certainly need us
>> and our capital. Act accordingly.
>We do need your capital but it seems your government purposefully directs this
>capital in areas where known Greek minority resides while refusing to invest
>further north. Why dont they even it up a little?
Why should they? It's their money, they can direct it wherever they wish. Make
it worth their while to invest it elsewhere, and trust me, they will.
<snip>
>> They and you are two different 'animals'.
>Watch your mouth mr Scholar! This language is unbecoming to illustrious people
>like you
Are you purposefully playing the idiot? Or is your English not idiomatic
enough?
> Your DNA and linguistic connection
>> did not lead to national unity between YOU and them. Get over it.
>DNA? How is Albanian DNA different from Greek DNA or Hindu DNA? It did not lea
>to national unity? But of course! The Greek revolution was sort of a
>fratricidal war for the Albanians (remember Albanians are defined as those who
>speak the Albanian langage. Religion is not a qualification for being
>Albanian since Albanians belong to both Christian and Moslem faiths)
Whatever you say. Fratricidal war? Perhaps. There is good evidence that Muslim
Albanians could have joined their Christian Arvanite relatives against the
Ottoman Turks. Had this happened, we would probably be living in a
Greco-Albanian Republic today. That would have been probably better for all of
us. You certainly wouldn't have gone through forty years of Hodxa Communist
rule.
>> >If you are refering to Albania then to be exact those part of northern
>greece
>> >inhabited by Albanians belong to Albania.
>>
>> So, now you're making territorial claims on Greece? It didn't take long for
>> your real agenda to come out, did it?
>I am sorry! Did I say "IS"? I ment to say "WAS".
You said 'belong'.
>You see the territory of
>Greece today is all yours de facto et de jure. There's no arguing with that.
>Enjoy it with my blessing! (just restitute the Cham properties)
Thanks for your blessing, as worthless as it may be. There will be no en masse
restitution of any Cham properties. Individual Chams or individual Cham
families can bring land claims in Greek or EU court.
<snip>
>> Yeah, keep dreaming. Collaborating with the occupying enemy nullifies any
>> property claims.
>Blah blah!
Thanks for that insightful, percipient response.
<snip>
>> Oh, bullshit. Your agenda is Greek territory.
>Keep you goddamned territory! I dont want it! No Albanian wants it!
What was that thing about 'Cham territory' then?
>COME AND GET IT, you fierce
>> Albanian liberator. Then you'll see on whose side the Arvanites will be. TRY
>> IT!
>On whose side the Albanians we'll be? I thought there were no ethnic Albanians
>in Greece.
Get it through your thick scull that Arvanites =/= Albanians or 'ethnic
Albanians'.
>You see dear Karageorges, an Arvanite in 1998 I am affraid is a
>contradiction in terms.
Says who? You? Do YOU know better than the Arvanites themselves?
> It wasnt so a few decades ago, but as you know your
>lot and fate have done a good job of assimilation as the Ethnologic Database
>suggests.
Yeah, baby, we are just the most efficient assimilating machine the world
over! Spare us. If only you knew the incompetence of the modern Greek state,
you wouldn't say such stupidities.
sp...@erols.com
George Baloglou
In article <karageor.30...@ucla.edu> kara...@ucla.edu
(Stavros N Karageorgis) writes:
>>According to the Greek Helsinki Federation, the "attention" of the entire
>>Greek media has been unjustly turned towards crimes Albanian commit, thus
>>purposefully creating albanophobia, and contributing to reprehensible
>>attitudes such as those of geeks Zissiades and Paraskevas.
>
>The Greek Helsinki Monitor is not the 'bible' on anything, and no, they are
>neither objective nor without an agenda. In any case, Evangelinos agreed with
>you on how poorly Greek media have been informing the Greek public on this
>matter.
Stavros and everybody else,
I will not say anything about the Greek Helsinki Monitor, whose credibility
has been damaged beyond repair by the "leadership" of that moron called
Panayote Elias Dimitras, but I would like to bring your attention to an
exchange in the December 4, 1997 issue of The New York Review of Books.
It is there that Misha Glenny shoots down an "interesting", pro-Berisha
letter titled "Disorder in Albania" and sent by Jonathan Sunley, a
representative of the British Helsinki Human Rights Group (British
Helsinki Watch.) It is views and actions like that of Mr. Sunley that
make one suspect that Helsinki Watch does indeed have an agenda; any
speculations on its content?
Margarita Ifti
In article <qx4t0wy...@urania.cfm.brown.edu>,
C. Evangelinos <ce...@urania.cfm.brown.edu> wrote:
[...]
>the idea that all Albanian (or -derivative) speaking people are
[...]
>Albanians is *ingrained* in your national ideology.
Slow down, hold your horses, Sir!
I won't bother with whether the Albanian-speaking people are Albanian or
NOT, for discussions with my Greek friends have already convinced me that
religion is so deeply rooted in their consciousness, that they consider
it equivalent to the nation (if not stronger---recall the slogan
'Religion, Family, Nation', which they, religious or not, took for granted,
while to me, the Albanian, meant so very little), so be happy with your
ideas. I would just invite you not to make such strong "deductions" about
the existence (and then the possible content) of other, unknown to you,
nations' national ideologies (or whatever you call them), just because it
would eventually lead to illogical conclusions, which would harm ONLY
you, I mean you personally. Try to understand that, for your own good.
(And please, don't accuse me for generalizing; it's your very attitude
and reasoning, what leads to believe you "universalize" the same way).
Have a nice day.
--
The problem with certain women is that they get excited about a nullity;
.. then they even marry him!
kbe...@ptloma.edu
In article <6f3qlq$jn0$1...@news.iastate.edu>,
if...@iastate.edu (Margarita Ifti) wrote:
> >the idea that all Albanian (or -derivative) speaking people are
> [...]
> >Albanians is *ingrained* in your national ideology.
>
> Slow down, hold your horses, Sir!
>
I would just invite you not to make such strong "deductions" about
> the existence (and then the possible content) of other, unknown to you,
Yeah! What is Albanian ideology anyways? (Nice catch Rita:P and happy easter)
KB
> nations' national ideologies (or whatever you call them), just because it
> would eventually lead to illogical conclusions, which would harm ONLY
> you, I mean you personally. Try to understand that, for your own good.
> (And please, don't accuse me for generalizing; it's your very attitude
> and reasoning, what leads to believe you "universalize" the same way).
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> --
> The problem with certain women is that they get excited about a nullity;
> .. then they even marry him!
>