Wesley Snipes: Dissin the sisters (or not) in Ebony Mag interview?

[Artclemons]

In article <64itb5$lun$1...@winter.news.erols.com>,
"gmrogers"@\"no_spam'_erols.com writes:

>I usually lurk and don't post but I am so tired of the African American
>woman being told that she isn't supportive of the African American male.
>And you even have the audacity to say that African American women are
>abrasive and rude. I also get tired of being told how much easier the
>African American female has it - at home, in the work place, etc. I
>just don't buy it!

This is one of those topics just waiting to come out and produce
open warfare. It's almost unbelievable to me the statement is made,
and dismissed by women. Ask yourself, what's the long term
survival rate for marriage in the community, then ask, who is more
likely to file for divorce?

I also note that just recently a thread was begun with a discussion of
why educated African-American women weren't supported by the
community. We have males and females competing for the same
resources, something successful cultures have historically avoided.
Well, we now have an experiment going on, one that's a failure in
terms of economical and social terms. Both sides are losing, if
just because there is no escaping that skin color remains as a barrier.
-art clemons-

[Africando]

>>> Black women have had to be strong and now
we are critized for it!!! <<<

Oh, come on! Being strong is one thing. Being rude
and abrasive is another matter.

[Gabrielle Daniels]

Perception vs. reality.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Complot plis fort passe ouanga."
(HAITIAN Creole)
-Conspiracy is stronger than witchcraft.-
'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gabrielle Theresa Daniels+...@ea.oac.uci.edu++gdan...@uci.edu
=======================================================================

[Gabrielle Daniels]

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Artclemons wrote back to G.M. Rogers:

> >I usually lurk and don't post but I am so tired of the African American
> >woman being told that she isn't supportive of the African American male.
> >And you even have the audacity to say that African American women are
> >abrasive and rude. I also get tired of being told how much easier the
> >African American female has it - at home, in the work place, etc. I
> >just don't buy it!
>
> This is one of those topics just waiting to come out and produce open
> warfare. It's almost unbelievable to me the statement is made, and
> dismissed by women.

Why? Because not all sisters are rude, abrasive and confrontational,
all the time, that's why. And if a sister takes up for herself or for
others, she's considered to be unfeminine and has more than her share of
cajones?

On a guy, behavior like this is considered manly and assertive. And
this pisses women off. For me, there are levels at which I deal with
men of ANY race. If they come off wanting to take my head off, of
course I'm gonna respond in kind. And then if a guy is being more than
pushy and exasperating, there's an end to patience and soft words.

Then there are days when life has been too demanding and even a soft
word or two from someone else can be loaded with too much meaning. I've
had those days a few times. Guys expect that women will always be
receptive to them because they are women, period. They're supposed to
live up to their training as females. Guys oughta quit expecting this
kind of 'be nice to me cause I'm a man' treatment off the bat. And some
women, not all, just don't want to be bothered at a certain time and
place and have no problem telling men so. Or they just don't want YOU!

I admit: some sisters do have some ways. They're on the same rusty
switch of eye bugging and head wagging. But brothers ought to check
themselves and their body language as well. They may be meeting the same
women over and over again because it is something THEY are doing and
saying.

> Ask yourself, what's the long term survival rate for marriage in the
> community, then ask, who is more likely to file for divorce?

Statistics, Art. And the year, too. Don't just figure brothers are
gonna always file because of 'bad behavior.' For every action, there's a
reaction. Sisters don't turn into ogresses overnight. Hints are
dropped all the time; it depends on what the brother (or sister) wants
to see.

> I also note that just recently a thread was begun with a discussion of
> why educated African-American women weren't supported by the
> community. We have males and females competing for the same
> resources, something successful cultures have historically avoided.
> Well, we now have an experiment going on, one that's a failure in
> terms of economical and social terms. Both sides are losing, if just
> because there is no escaping that skin color remains as a barrier.

Skin color and gender remain barriers. We know the Man loves the
Two-Fer or the Three-Fer if only to keep his own act fairly clean. But
you have women who are heads of households because the brother has left
the building for whatever sane reason. There are single sisters trying
to get a career going that will not only be a complement to themselves
but their future marriageability. Shall these sisters and/or their
children have to run for the shelter of some guy's arms if only to make
sure his manhood and wallet stays intact?

A testosterone level is not a prerequisite any more for handling ANY
job.

And no, I'm not on 'hell on wheels' mode. ;) At least, not yet!

[Gabrielle Daniels]

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Brooks Allen wrote back to me:

> > > Oh, come on! Being strong is one thing. Being rude and abrasive is
> > > another matter.
> >
> > Perception vs. reality.
>

> Aren't they one in the same?

Nope.

> If what I perceive becomes my reality, then how do sisters overcome
> thier perception problem?

Why are sisters responsible for your 'reality'?

> Additionally, why is it that so many brothers agree with Wesley's
> perception?

Because they want sisters to change into the 'dream' women, read white
or Asian or what flava of the month, to fulfill their fantasy of having
a person they can control.

We got out of slavery one hundred and thirty-three years ago. Should
black women become slaves to black men's idea of what a 'real' woman is?

[David C. Waters]

: On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Africando wrote:
: > Oh, come on! Being strong is one thing. Being rude and abrasive is
: > another matter.

Gabrielle Daniels (gdan...@taurus.oac.uci.edu) wrote:
: Perception vs. reality.

We all should realize that some women got that way after they were dogged
by some less than noble brothas. Some of 'em were just raised to be on
the defensive by other women who got dogged. I suspect that very few
were ever born that way, but I won't rule out the possibility at all! :-)

But the bottom line is that I refuse to take the rap for some other brotha!
Likewise, I won't hold the next woman accountable for one of the former
women until I start to see a definite pattern develop!

David "The problem is that now there are too many patterns!" Waters
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/_/ David C. Waters, Jr. _/_/ Integrated Business Solutions _/_/
_/_/ Multimedia Business Answers _/_/ Video Audio CD-ROM Publishing _/_/
_/_/ E-Mail: mba...@netcom.com _/_/ World Wide Web and TV Access! _/_/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

[Kaiju]

Africando wrote:
>
> >>> Black women have had to be strong and now
> we are critized for it!!! <<<
>

> Oh, come on! Being strong is one thing. Being rude
> and abrasive is another matter.

Oh, Puhleeeze. Being rude and abrasive is never a good thang. However...

Black men, in some cases, can be arrogant, self-centered, abrasive,
insensitive and rude. But it isn't always considered a negative trait. It is
considered "being a *strong* Black Man", which is considered a "positive"...or
at least we're told it is. Not to mention, Black women aren't using these
traits of Black men as an "excuse" or "justification" to consort with those of
other races/cultures.

Come up with another spin, folks. This one doesn't fly. If a man finds
someone who is not Black to love, so be it, and more power to him. Love, in
whatever shape, form or appearance, is hard to find as it is. But this
excuse-making for not being socially correct is just plain rubbish. Placing
the blame on some mythical common traits of Black women is even worse. (I'd
give a more descriptive term for it, but it wouldn't get past the
moderators...)

Kaiju <who ascribes to the "love the one who fits" theory>

[Kaiju]

"Subscribes", even.

Kaiju <who hates it when she mangles English that way...>

[Ray....@zippo.com]

I think the posts in this thread make is perfectly clear why more brothas
and sisthas don't stay together in permanent, monogamous relationships.

We are too business pointing out what the other sex is doing wrong
to recognize that we are _both_ _equally_ to blame.

Ray Wood

[JustUs]

How about talking about "why" folks stay together or what is positive
about AA relationships, probably too boring huh! I really do choose to
believe that there are a lot of "good" relationships out there, (we just
tend to hear and harp on the bad ones) including mine and several other
couples that I know!

JustUs

[kben...@concentric.net]

Gabrielle Daniels wrote:

> This whole exchange proves my and other sisters' points. NO ONE,
> neither a man or a woman should be a slave to each other. Just who do
> you think is massa in this kind of relationship? Yall share being
> massa, too? In order for someone to be a slave, there has gotta be a
> massa. Geddit? This kinda talk has gotten a lot of people in trouble
> in the past and even now. No wonder sisters get pissed, and rightly so.
> Romance is fine. But real love is hard. It is not predicated on who's
> up or down. Wesley and guys like him DO have a problem! Can I get a
> witness, yall?
>

Nope. This whole diatribe suggests that you're hypersensitive about
this issue and that there is an ounce or pound of truth to Wesley's
comments.

Kirt

========================================= MODERATOR COMMENT
MOD: Pushing it.

[Artclemons]

Note for attribution, all ">>" are attributable to Art Clemons & all
">" are attributed to Gabrielle Daniels.

In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.971117...@taurus.oac.uci.edu>,
Gabrielle Daniels <gdan...@taurus.oac.uci.edu> writes:

>> This is one of those topics just waiting to come out and produce open
>> warfare. It's almost unbelievable to me the statement is made, and
>> dismissed by women.
>
>Why? Because not all sisters are rude, abrasive and confrontational,
>all the time, that's why. And if a sister takes up for herself or for
>others, she's considered to be unfeminine and has more than her share of
>cajones?
>

First, I didn't accuse all sisters of being rude, abrasive and
confrontational.
Yet, I note that UNLESS I've missed men somehow controlling
women in the community, women do end relationships. I don't expect
perfection, but even with a surplus of educated women in the community,
many educated males make the same claim. It takes two people to make
a relationship work, and only one to ruin it!

Second, I suggest with some hopes of being considered rational that
the African-American community is more a matriarchy than a
patriarchy as white women seem to claim about the supposed mainstream
culture in North America and Europe. That focus for most families
also means that women are the elders, and the ones with more
money.

>On a guy, behavior like this is considered manly and assertive. And
>this pisses women off. For me, there are levels at which I deal with
>men of ANY race. If they come off wanting to take my head off, of
>course I'm gonna respond in kind. And then if a guy is being more than
>pushy and exasperating, there's an end to patience and soft words.

African-American men, who behave as you describe, usually end up
involved with the judicial system either as law enforcement, or the
victims/cash crop.

>Then there are days when life has been too demanding and even a soft
>word or two from someone else can be loaded with too much meaning. I've
>had those days a few times. Guys expect that women will always be
>receptive to them because they are women, period. They're supposed to
>live up to their training as females. Guys oughta quit expecting this
>kind of 'be nice to me cause I'm a man' treatment off the bat. And some
>women, not all, just don't want to be bothered at a certain time and
>place and have no problem telling men so. Or they just don't want YOU!

This implies of course that men never have days that are too demanding.
If a woman can't deal with words which aren't strictly negative, what does
that say about how much she values a particular relationship? Best
guess, not much!

>I admit: some sisters do have some ways. They're on the same rusty
>switch of eye bugging and head wagging. But brothers ought to check
>themselves and their body language as well. They may be meeting the same
>women over and over again because it is something THEY are doing and
>saying.

Don't women make the approximate same claims that they meet the
same man over and over again, or try to fit men into a very limited set
of categories?

>> Ask yourself, what's the long term survival rate for marriage in the
>> community, then ask, who is more likely to file for divorce?

>Statistics, Art. And the year, too. Don't just figure brothers are
>gonna always file because of 'bad behavior.' For every action, there's a
>reaction. Sisters don't turn into ogresses overnight. Hints are
>dropped all the time; it depends on what the brother (or sister) wants
>to see.

All I have is lots of contact with lawyers practicing family law. The
woman is more likely to be the plaintiff in a divorce action. Men
tend to seek divorces only when the relationship has been over for
a while and they plan on getting married again, or they seek to
escape credit hits for purchases by the spouse. In other words,
brothers tend to just fade away, and sisters tend to want to put an end
to it.

>> I also note that just recently a thread was begun with a discussion of
>> why educated African-American women weren't supported by the
>> community. We have males and females competing for the same
>> resources, something successful cultures have historically avoided.
>> Well, we now have an experiment going on, one that's a failure in
>> terms of economical and social terms. Both sides are losing, if just
>> because there is no escaping that skin color remains as a barrier.

>Skin color and gender remain barriers. We know the Man loves the
>Two-Fer or the Three-Fer if only to keep his own act fairly clean. But
>you have women who are heads of households because the brother has left
>the building for whatever sane reason. There are single sisters trying
>to get a career going that will not only be a complement to themselves
>but their future marriageability. Shall these sisters and/or their
>children have to run for the shelter of some guy's arms if only to make
>sure his manhood and wallet stays intact?

Nobody wants to try to figure out how a relationship works if both parties
are seeking the same resources at the same time. It can't work that
way. I'm not making this up. We can't compete against each other, and
then cooperate at home. It's true for white couples and it's also true for
couples in the community. I also point out that higher education does not
seem to enhance the chances of a successful long term relationship. I
don't know what will happen, but I'm sure that marriage isn't going to
continue if both spouses have to compete with each other to work. We
already have the lowest in wedlock birth rate, and the lowest rate of
children growing up with their fathers. You tell me what the solution is,
and please don't say that if folks just respect each other, everything will
work out. People define respect funny, and differently!

>A testosterone level is not a prerequisite any more for handling ANY
>job.

>And no, I'm not on 'hell on wheels' mode. ;) At least, not yet!

We do however now have jobs which require that couples spend more
time earning money. I also note that in real terms for MOST U.S.
families, the buying power of any one worker is less than the buying
power of a worker in let's say 1968 or 69, it now takes two incomes
to buy what one worker could have earned enough to buy the equivalent
of in 1969. That however produces stresses on relationships, and
child support at a fixed rate of a net income is invariably going to leave
the parent with the children to care for, less well off if divorce or
separation of any kind occurs. That's reality, but the society also
encourages both parties to act as though the other side doesn't have
needs, with the African-American community experiencing this problem
earlier than its white cohorts, and now spiraling downward because there
is no societal expectation on what goals a family as a unit should have
except both should be working.

-art clemons-

[SVCORBIN]

after reading these notes about how black women are being
rejected because of their attitude. I have to laugh, a few years ago I said the
same thing until I started to read and find out more about life. it turns out
that men in other ethnic groups make the
same compliant against their own women. the only bottom line it
turns out was the existance of the racial caste system, light being at the top
and dark skin being at the bottom in terms of female beauty. (Asian women are a
special exception in all of this)
the racist dynamics are thus. black skin is the most masculine,
Asian races is the most feminine, whites are in between. the National Review
printed a racist article on this issue. and most
folks are familiar with all of this already. the book The Color
Complex is a good read to explain it as well. Anyway.
I will never forget coming across a thread on the internet
from an Indian woman complaining that Indian men go for
white women as soon as they come to this country and an
Indian man responding that Indian women are hard
and disagreeable and make Indian men go after white women.
I have seen other men complain about their women in the same way. I also see
similarities in how blacks shop in white stores
and explain their behavior by saying that black stores are
deficient in some way. this kind of self hating behavior
is common thru out African American life.

[Gabrielle Daniels]

Okay...

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Artclemons wrote:

> Note for attribution, all ">>" are attributable to Art Clemons & all
> ">" are attributed to Gabrielle Daniels.
>

> >> This is one of those topics just waiting to come out and produce open
> >> warfare. It's almost unbelievable to me the statement is made, and
> >> dismissed by women.
> >
> >Why? Because not all sisters are rude, abrasive and confrontational,
> >all the time, that's why. And if a sister takes up for herself or for
> >others, she's considered to be unfeminine and has more than her share of
> >cajones?
> >

> First, I didn't accuse all sisters of being rude, abrasive and
> confrontational.

I didn't say YOU were. I'm saying what most sisters say when the
accusation is hurled, whether are not they are R-A-&-C. Sisters are put
on the defensive, and the statement is hardly EVER made in a way that
sisters may have examine their INDIVIDUAL behavior towards black men.

I still say, if a sister takes up for herself, it is deemed objectional
or unwomanly behavior regardless of how beautiful or graceful she is in
other circumstances.

> Yet, I note that UNLESS I've missed men somehow controlling
> women in the community, women do end relationships. I don't expect
> perfection, but even with a surplus of educated women in the community,
> many educated males make the same claim. It takes two people to make
> a relationship work, and only one to ruin it!

Granted that women do end relationships.

But it takes more than just one person to ruin a relationship. Both
parties have lacks and strengths that each are unable to deal with. And
putting it all on black women is rather disingenuous, don't you think?
It shows your biases.

> Second, I suggest with some hopes of being considered rational that
> the African-American community is more a matriarchy than a
> patriarchy as white women seem to claim about the supposed mainstream
> culture in North America and Europe.

Why are white women in this discussion? They're not all experts on
black women or black matriarchy as you appear to claim?

Ever read about what black women have to say about 'black matriarchy'?

> That focus for most families also means that women are the elders, and
> the ones with more money.

'More money'?

More like less money if you are looking at women who are heads of
households with at least two minor children at home. And most of these
women are doing it alone. I say less money because of sisters being
dependent on welfare as well as trying to make it in business and
industry. Not all sisters make it to middle management, Art. Many
sisters are sitting in a twilight zone of glass ceilings as clerical
workers. If I'm wrong, I'd like to hear it from someone else.

> >On a guy, behavior like this is considered manly and assertive. And
> >this pisses women off. For me, there are levels at which I deal with
> >men of ANY race. If they come off wanting to take my head off, of
> >course I'm gonna respond in kind. And then if a guy is being more than
> >pushy and exasperating, there's an end to patience and soft words.
>
> African-American men, who behave as you describe, usually end up
> involved with the judicial system either as law enforcement, or the
> victims/cash crop.

I don't get what you're saying here, when you say '...the victims/cash
crop.'

I'm going to expand on what I say about men being overly aggressive,
unable to get the message that I don't want to be bothered: there's an
end to patience and soft words. I either call for assistance, call the
cops, or slap the masher.

> >Then there are days when life has been too demanding and even a soft
> >word or two from someone else can be loaded with too much meaning. I've
> >had those days a few times. Guys expect that women will always be
> >receptive to them because they are women, period. They're supposed to
> >live up to their training as females. Guys oughta quit expecting this
> >kind of 'be nice to me cause I'm a man' treatment off the bat. And some
> >women, not all, just don't want to be bothered at a certain time and
> >place and have no problem telling men so. Or they just don't want YOU!
>
> This implies of course that men never have days that are too demanding.
> If a woman can't deal with words which aren't strictly negative, what does
> that say about how much she values a particular relationship? Best
> guess, not much!

The thing is, Art, like I said before, is that women are sick and tired
of guys always wanting to put their troubles into their laps at the end
of the day! Some men are still in the Ward and June Cleaver mode of 'my
woman is there for me, she'll listen to me.' It doesn't work that way
any more. Granted, guys have demanding days. But women also have
demanding days. For men to expect women to 'be nice' for them, lay
down, bring the drink, give them a massage WITHOUT reciprocation is
rather selfish, don't you think? This is no longer on the job
expectation list for a wife or SO these days. Women will not have it.
And they will tell guys who are too much into their business at the
wrong time to shove off.

> >I admit: some sisters do have some ways. They're on the same rusty
> >switch of eye bugging and head wagging. But brothers ought to check
> >themselves and their body language as well. They may be meeting the same
> >women over and over again because it is something THEY are doing and
> >saying.
>
> Don't women make the approximate same claims that they meet the
> same man over and over again, or try to fit men into a very limited set
> of categories?

Then these men oughta meet these sisters, seriously. They're messing up
the scene for people who do want to deal. ;)

> >> Ask yourself, what's the long term survival rate for marriage in the
> >> community, then ask, who is more likely to file for divorce?
>
> >Statistics, Art. And the year, too. Don't just figure brothers are
> >gonna always file because of 'bad behavior.' For every action, there's a
> >reaction. Sisters don't turn into ogresses overnight. Hints are
> >dropped all the time; it depends on what the brother (or sister) wants
> >to see.
>
> All I have is lots of contact with lawyers practicing family law. The
> woman is more likely to be the plaintiff in a divorce action. Men
> tend to seek divorces only when the relationship has been over for
> a while and they plan on getting married again, or they seek to
> escape credit hits for purchases by the spouse. In other words,
> brothers tend to just fade away, and sisters tend to want to put an end
> to it.

Then there are no statistics, just a perception. Okay, this is what I
get from what you say:

If sisters want to put an end to it, doesn't it mean that they have a
bit more on the ball than wasting everyone's time? I mean, there is
such a thing as counseling, timeouts, etc. Perhaps these are 'white'
pursuits to saving a marriage, but you don't factor them in. Perhaps
sister is not into waiting any longer. It appears that if the men are
taking it slow, perhaps there is some payback involved for them while
the sister waits for the brother to do the right thing. States volumes
about sisters wanting to get on with their lives, and brothers dragging
their asses--including the woman, their children, and other situations
as well. What do brothers like this think about? that the marriage is
gonna work when it is DOA?

> >> I also note that just recently a thread was begun with a discussion of
> >> why educated African-American women weren't supported by the
> >> community. We have males and females competing for the same
> >> resources, something successful cultures have historically avoided.
> >> Well, we now have an experiment going on, one that's a failure in
> >> terms of economical and social terms. Both sides are losing, if just
> >> because there is no escaping that skin color remains as a barrier.
>
> >Skin color and gender remain barriers. We know the Man loves the
> >Two-Fer or the Three-Fer if only to keep his own act fairly clean. But
> >you have women who are heads of households because the brother has left
> >the building for whatever sane reason. There are single sisters trying
> >to get a career going that will not only be a complement to themselves
> >but their future marriageability. Shall these sisters and/or their
> >children have to run for the shelter of some guy's arms if only to make
> >sure his manhood and wallet stays intact?
>
> Nobody wants to try to figure out how a relationship works if both parties
> are seeking the same resources at the same time. It can't work that
> way. I'm not making this up. We can't compete against each other, and
> then cooperate at home.

How?

We often do not work for the same company or have the same careers. How
is this competing against each other, Art? Simply because we may be
working at all?

> It's true for white couples and it's also true for couples in the
> community. I also point out that higher education does not seem to
> enhance the chances of a successful long term relationship.

So, are you saying that an educated sister cannot be reasoned with? Or
rather we can't be influenced or talked to without compromise?

It just means that people these days cannot get by having traditional
marriages any more, where the man ruled the roost. Like I said, Ward
and June Cleaver are no longer the norm, Art.

> I don't know what will happen, but I'm sure that marriage isn't going
> to continue if both spouses have to compete with each other to work.

I think you better look more at the economy and the need for some
couples to have two incomes. Men cannot use money as a leverage against
women any more. And while women make less than a man, they gain in
autonomy.

> We already have the lowest in wedlock birth rate, and the lowest rate
> of children growing up with their fathers. You tell me what the
> solution is, and please don't say that if folks just respect each
> other, everything will work out. People define respect funny, and
> differently!

I have no solution, except to say that people get together for the wrong
reasons. I'm a product of such a miscoupling, and I'm in my 40s.
Some people fail to realize that marriage is a series of compromises
and agreements, based on more than just mutual respect.

I think one of the things both black women and men should remember first
off in getting into a LTR is that YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE OTHER PERSON
WITH A PIECE OF PAPER.

> >A testosterone level is not a prerequisite any more for handling ANY
> >job.
>
> >And no, I'm not on 'hell on wheels' mode. ;) At least, not yet!
>
> We do however now have jobs which require that couples spend more
> time earning money. I also note that in real terms for MOST U.S.
> families, the buying power of any one worker is less than the buying
> power of a worker in let's say 1968 or 69, it now takes two incomes
> to buy what one worker could have earned enough to buy the equivalent
> of in 1969. That however produces stresses on relationships, and
> child support at a fixed rate of a net income is invariably going to leave
> the parent with the children to care for, less well off if divorce or
> separation of any kind occurs. That's reality, but the society also
> encourages both parties to act as though the other side doesn't have
> needs, with the African-American community experiencing this problem
> earlier than its white cohorts, and now spiraling downward because there
> is no societal expectation on what goals a family as a unit should have
> except both should be working.

Then--hell--forget what society expects! Black couples should decide on
a set of expectations for themselves. I think this is a time for
brothers and sisters to live up to what they come up with on an
individual basis, utilizing their values, their needs, etc., et al.

[Mazoozz]

>Subject: Re: Wesley Snipes: Dissin the sisters (or not) in Ebony Mag
>interview?
>From: "gmrogers"@\"no_spam'_erols.com
>Date: Sat, Nov 15, 1997 02:22 EST
>Message-id: <64itb5$lun$1...@winter.news.erols.com>
>

>Hezron,

>
>I usually lurk and don't post but I am so tired of the African American
>woman being told that she isn't supportive of the African American male.
>And you even have the audacity to say that African American women are
>abrasive and rude.

It is simply a fact that black women on average tend to be more sassy and
abrasive and more likely to carry "a chip on their shoulder" or an attitude.
Not all of course, many are very sweet and lovable, but when black men that
date outside their race complain about not being able to find a non-abrasive
black woman easily, I don't think their claims are unfounded. As I said, there
are many nice black women, but being someone who knows many women of all races,
most of the sweet, sensitive and feminine women tend to be non-black. Sorry if
this offends, but thats what I've personally observed whether it be family or
friends. Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope I am, but this is just one black man's
perception.

Black women have had to be strong and now we are
>critized for it!!!

There is a differnce between being strong and being obnoxious. I've known the
most tender and overtly feminine acting women that are very strong in their
values and intelligence.

. I could make the same statement in reference
>to "some" African American men I have met, but I know that isn't true
>for all or even most.

Of course, generalizations never mean all, but we have to stop fooling
ourselves into thinking that black women don't on that average act different
from white, Asian, or Latin women. Most black men feel that black women do have
"too much attitude" and until this is alleviated, many black men will simply
pursue relationships with other women in disproportionate numbers. I'm not
saying this is good, but its reality.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=Your Warrant Is In Question=-

-The Devil's Advocate-

email to c...@cmix.com

[Gabrielle Daniels]

A coupla things, Mazoozz:

> >I usually lurk and don't post but I am so tired of the African
> American >woman being told that she isn't supportive of the African
> American male. >And you even have the audacity to say that African
> American women are >abrasive and rude. It is simply a fact that black
> women on average tend to be more sassy and abrasive and more likely to
> carry "a chip on their shoulder" or an attitude.

I wish people would use the word "some." When you say "black women,"
you definitely mean all of us. And not all of us are.

> Not all of course, many are very sweet and lovable, but when black men
> that date outside their race complain about not being able to find a
> non-abrasive black woman easily, I don't think their claims are
> unfounded. As I said, there are many nice black women, but being
> someone who knows many women of all races, most of the sweet,
> sensitive and feminine women tend to be non-black. Sorry if this
> offends, but thats what I've personally observed whether it be family
> or friends. Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope I am, but this is just one
> black man's perception.

Well, guess what. Some women, including black women, are not into being
always receptive to any man, whether it is a come-on or simply taking
advantage of a door being held for them.

Do black women ALWAYS have to be nice to men, including black men? Why
must we always be ready, submissive and receptive towards any man?
Don't you know how this plays HISTORICALLY with black women? Some white
men always thought we were 'ready for anything.' Some still think every
woman (of color) is ready for what they wanna give them.

Must black men always assume black women must be nice to them for just
being there? or because they are black men?

I don't have to talk about how many times brothers haven't heard me say
hello to them, smile and wave at them, or try to ignore me while running
towards a white/Asian/Chicana-Latino woman. And that's my reality,
whether I'm 'nice' to a particular brother or not.

> >Black women have had to be strong and now we are
> >critized for it!!!
>
> There is a differnce between being strong and being obnoxious. I've
> known the most tender and overtly feminine acting women that are very
> strong in their values and intelligence.

In other words, couch it sweetly for me so I won't feel less than a man.

> >I could make the same statement in reference
> >to "some" African American men I have met, but I know that isn't true
> >for all or even most.
>
> Of course, generalizations never mean all, but we have to stop fooling
> ourselves into thinking that black women don't on that average act
> different from white, Asian, or Latin women.

I even dismiss the 'on average' claim. I still think this carping is a
ploy for control. Like 'why can't you be more like them, sister'? Or
'I'll love you if only you'll...'

> Most black men feel that black women do have "too much attitude" and
> until this is alleviated, many black men will simply pursue
> relationships with other women in disproportionate numbers.

And I still think this is a big excuse for what's lacking between the
ears of black men.

> I'm not saying this is good, but its reality.

Not mine.

[Dwayne Conyers]

All of that has little to do with the fact that, on the average, black women
have a problem with black men. I live in a suburban area where there are
very few African-Americans. I've found that most black women I've met who
aren't dating white men are actively seeking relationships with white men.
Despite the fact that I am a professional with an Ivy League grad school
education, most of the sisters I encounter look upon me with the same desire
they'd have for a vat of flaming skunk feces.

Another interesting phenomenon, most white women that I've met who date
black men date the "street" brothers... those with little education and
non-existent social graces.

That leaves professional brothers such as myself in a bit of a quandary. If
the sisters dis you and the only white women willing to "cross over" will
only go for an uneducated hardneck, what alternatives do we have?

SVCORBIN wrote in message <19971122214...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...

[David C. Waters]

Gabrielle Daniels (gdan...@rigel.oac.uci.edu) wrote:

: On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Artclemons wrote:
: > Note for attribution, all ">>" are attributable to Art Clemons & all
: > ">" are attributed to Gabrielle Daniels.

[ Ladies and gentlemen, we interrupt this debate for intermission time! ]

Women's restrooms are on the left and men's restrooms are on the right.
AfAm women's restrooms are toward the front left, AsAm women's restrooms
are toward the rear left, and the "white"/Latino women's restrooms are on
the left center.

Men are discouraged from turning to talk to your neighbor while standing
in front of a urinal. A certain group of guys (you know who you are) are
encouraged to used the open urinals so that the private stalls are
available for those who need to sit down...it's not like anyone can see
anything to laugh at anyway!

And don't forget to stop by the concession stand where Ed, the only
USENET concessionaire that I'm aware of, has a whole host of treats for
your pleasure...um, he still has lots of condoms left if anyone's still
interested, none of the boxes have even been opened yet!

David "I guess no one's interested...was it something I said?" Waters

[Pilar Quezzaire]

Alright, I said I wasn't going to step into this one, but I think I've had
enough of the stereotyping. Now listen caresully to what I say, and note
my tone, my words, and where you might this is coming from. It's
obnoxious--but I have a reason.

Mazoozz (maz...@aol.com) wrote:

: It is simply a fact that black women on average tend to be more sassy and

: abrasive and more likely to carry "a chip on their shoulder" or an attitude.

I would carry one too if I didn't have to be surrounded by lazy black men
with no drive and little care for themselves or their families. ANY woman
would be in a bad mood if they constantly had a foot up their man's butt.

: Not all of course, many are very sweet and lovable, but when black men that

: date outside their race complain about not being able to find a non-abrasive
: black woman easily, I don't think their claims are unfounded.

This is a lazy, unthoughtful answer. All black men must lack in the
ability to self-analyze as well, 'cause any white man would have sat on a
couch instead of going to the village preacher for advice. How come a
man's attitude and behavior are shaped by his environment (Yo, the SYSTEM
fucked me up, man!) and a woman is genetically so? Why is this even all
her fault, when for a man, it's everyone's else's?

: As I said, there are many nice black women, but being someone who knows

: many women of all races, most of the sweet, sensitive and feminine women
: tend to be non-black.

That's because when you are dealing outside of your "people" you have more
of a tendency toward insecurity. 'Sweetness" is often "fear of upsetting."

But then, I would be upset too, worried about being angry at my black man,
because you know all black men beat on their girlfriends and leave them
with ten children and no paycheck. I'd be sweet too if that would keep
them around, but I know they won't--after all--they'll just find some
Korean woman who'll also wash their feet. See, I don't have time to do
that, I have to work. I wouldn't have to work if my man got off his lazy
ass and found a job, but he's too busy being "hurt" by the System.

: Sorry if this offends, but thats what I've personally observed whether

: it be family or friends. Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope I am, but this is
: just one black man's perception.

Obviously not just one. I think all black men think this way. They wnt it
easy. So they find those "other" women to be more successful.

: Black women have had to be strong and now we are
: >critized for it!!!

: There is a differnce between being strong and being obnoxious.

Could you tell me what it is? Because I can't tell right now whether you
are being "strong" here or not.

: Of course, generalizations never mean all, but we have to stop fooling

: ourselves into thinking that black women don't on that average act

: different from white, Asian, or Latin women. Most black men feel that

: black women do have: "too much attitude" and until this is alleviated,
: many black men will simply pursue relationships with other women in

: disproportionate numbers. I'm not saying this is good, but its
: reality.

Then it must also be reality that black men are too weak, stupid, and
insecure to be with a woman who will get in their faces. My God. I guess
I'll have to get a divorce, though I never noticed my black husband having
that kind of problem with me. Maybe he's just faking it--maybe he really
IS as weak as his brethren. Maybe he just wants white women and hopes that
'cause I'm so light-skinned, I'll turn into one. Maybe he's just mooching
off my salary, and will leave if I God-forbid demand something. Obviously,
since "most black men" think this way, this is what I should expect.

Now, you tell me which of these "facts" is stereotype and which are true
facts, all you Samboes and Sammy Davis' out there. Listen to yourselves,
watch the mirror turn on you, and tell me what kind of ugly you see.

The lack of critical thinking in thread is apalling, on both ends of the
argument.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pilar Quezzaire-Belle Art Geek quez...@fas.harvard.edu

"Life is like Custer's Last Stand: you charge in thinking you know shit,
and get screwed. Just hope you're one of the Indians."

--Samara Mahoney
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Robert W. Anderson]

Pilar Quezzaire wrote:

> Mazoozz (maz...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> : It is simply a fact that black women on average tend to be more sassy and
> : abrasive and more likely to carry "a chip on their shoulder" or an attitude.
>
> I would carry one too if I didn't have to be surrounded by lazy black men
> with no drive and little care for themselves or their families. ANY woman
> would be in a bad mood if they constantly had a foot up their man's butt.
>

Well said, Pilar. Some Sisters are like roses, you have negotiate the
thorns before you can savor the essence. I just came back from a weekend
in Wash.,DC - not a sassy, abrasive, "chip on their shoulder" Sister in
sight. One of the reasons I like DC so much is b/c of the abundance of
friendly Black women.

--
Robert W. Anderson - Lucent Technologies
Advanced Software Construction Center
rw...@lucent.com
V:919.380.4547/F:919.380.464O

[Dat Fuule]

Gabrielle Daniels wrote:
>

<cuts for space>

>
> I wish people would use the word "some." When you say "black women,"
> you definitely mean all of us. And not all of us are.
>

<cuts to point something out...>

>
> And I still think this is a big excuse for what's lacking between the
> ears of black men.

I'm sure you meant "some". Not all of us are "lacking between the
ears".

J.Harkless

[Philip Kasiecki]

In article <19971122090...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

Mazoozz (maz...@aol.com) wrote:
: It is simply a fact that black women on average tend to be more sassy and
: abrasive and more likely to carry "a chip on their shoulder" or an

: attitude. Not all of course, many are very sweet and lovable

This looks like you're backpedaling.

: As I said, there are many nice black women, but being someone who
: knows many women of all races, most of the sweet, sensitive and
: feminine women tend to be non-black.

Hmmm...
I'm someone who knows many women of all races, and I can't concur
with any of this. In fact, my experiences have been almost the
opposite.

: Most black men feel that black women do have "too much attitude" and

: until this is alleviated, many black men will simply pursue
: relationships with other women in disproportionate numbers.

I think this is a cop out. Part of it is that I haven't met many
Black women who fit this description; the other part is that this is a
stereotype. Also, I've known some Black women who some felt have "too
much attitude", and frankly, I think they're dead wrong in many cases.
Perceptions... that seems to be what the problem is...

Phil Kasiecki

--
Philip T. Kasiecki
Electrical and Computer Engineering
Northeastern University Class of 1999

1997-98 College Basketball Preview now online!
http://lynx.dac.neu.edu/home/httpd/p/pkasieck/

"Life is not important except in the impact it has on others' lives."
-Jackie Robinson

[David C. Waters]

Pilar Quezzaire (quez...@fas.harvard.edu) wrote:
: Alright, I said I wasn't going to step into this one, but I think I've had

: enough of the stereotyping. Now listen caresully to what I say, and note
: my tone, my words, and where you might this is coming from. It's
: obnoxious--but I have a reason.

Hmmm...not again! :-)

Okay, for the purpose of a potentially constructive and enlightening
discussion on this topic (fat chance), let's try to frame some context
here.

In what contexts are these so-called comparisons between obnoxious AfAm
women and less obnoxious women made? Are these so-called "angry black
women" only obnoxious to AfAm men or are they obnoxious to everyone?
What are thier specific actions?

I don't think that anyone in their right mind can say that *all* "black"
women demonstrate the same behaviour so let's try to narrow down the
parameters to find out what specific contexts we're talking about.

Are we talking about the type of stereotypical "black trash" that we can
all see on shows like "Jerry Springfield", "Jenny Jones", or "Rikki
Lake"? If so, you should notice that there are also "white trash"
equivalents on the very same shows. Could it be that "white trash"
behaviour is less televised (partly because) it mostly occurs in rural
areas, trailer parks, etc., while "black trash" tends to concentrate in
urban ghettos (slightly more accessible to the media)?

You might also note that there are also "white (or Asian) Hip-Hop girls"
who can be indistinguishable from the sterotypical obnoxious "black"
woman. Let's not forget the men...but if Pilar isn't the only woman to
speak out on this thread then I'm sure we won't be able to! :-)

Now before I go on, I hope that most of you will realize that I'm playing
the role of devil's advocate here to a certain extent. This disclaimer
probably won't protect me from eternal damnation by certain people but I
just thought that I'd give it a shot anyway...

The club scene:
===============

An AfAm male goes to a dance club in So. Cal. that happens to be
"racially mixed". Many of the "sistas" are pretty much lined up along a
specific wall, dressed to perfection, all striking poses that seem to say
"I'm perfect and you need not apply unless you're royalty!"

So you hang back and decide which one to go for. Thing of it is that
usually one or two are truly the most stunning women you've ever laid
eyes on (of course that seems to happen in every club :-) but you're not
sure about your chances because she might truly be a goddess and you
figure that you only have ONE SHOT so it better be good. Let's face it,
if you see Halle Barry and Tyra Banks sitting at the same table, how do
you decide which one to go for?

Quickly you realize that you're not the only "brotha" checkin' them out
and you watch all these other dudes approach 'em only to leave with their
heads down and their tails between their legs. Now you start to wonder
what the criteria is because some of the other fellas are dressed a
little better than you. Of course *they* look like they spent the whole
day getting coiffed and dressed just for tonight. You, OTOH, are a
professional and wear a shirt and tie to work so why change, right?

So, after watching virtually every man who approaches 'em go down in
flames, you notice that other men start approaching the (slightly) less
impressive "sistas" with some success. Now you're starting to wonder
whether you too should "compromise" just so the night isn't a complete
waste of time. After all, you just came to unwind and have some fun.

The problem is that you spent too much time strategizing on how to
approach the next Hally Barry or Tyra Banks and the best runners-up are
out dancing with other fellas. But everytime you get ready to step in
that direction, one of the goddesses looks your way and momentarily
acknowledges at you as she turns to scan the whole scene. So you wait
for further acknowledgement and try to interpret what that momentary
pause meant as she looked in your direction (as you try to nonchalantly
look behind you in case she wasn't really looking at *you*). It wasn't
an overt invitation to apply, but it wasn't a total look-off either.

So, finally you finish your drink and say "what the hell" and you step in
that direction. But what you didn't see as your head was cocked-back to
gulp the last of the drink you'd been nursing was that a couple of gawdy
brothas somehow managed to get both of the goddesses to dance with them.
But your momentum is carrying you in that direction already and to stop
would be too obvious to everyone what happened (to you).

But there's still at least one *very* acceptable sista there but she
doesn't see you coming and for some reason she reaches under the table to
get her purse or something and the least attractive one of the whole damn
bunch intercepts you by engaging in conversation. So you politely speak
to her as not to appear rude in front of the other woman. But the other
woman can't see the terror in eyes as you silently beg her to interrupt
the torture of talking to, let's face it, her ugly friend. Worse yet,
she decides to leave and go to the restroom. Now you're stuck! But you
try to get out of it by asking the ugly one, "Aren't you going to the
restroom with your friend?"

Unfortunately, she says something like "Not while you're here." Then you
scan the room looking for someone, anyone, or anything that you can use
as a reason to get away. But as you scan the scene you notice that both
the future Halle Barry and Tyra Banks both seem to intently focus on you
talking to this girl as if to say "...so *that's* what you like? Hmph!"

Now you're engaged in a conversation with "Moesha's obnoxious, chubby
friend" who proceedes to bend your ear about how she only shops at the
most expensive stores, only goes out with men who drive the finest luxury
sedans and take her to eat at the most exclusive restaurants (as if you
couldn't tell). But somehow you suspect that she has a bus pass in her
purse along with a spare set of fingernails, eyelashes, etc.

Finally, you try a variety of escape techniques to get away from
"Moesha's chubby, obnoxious friend" by asking a bunch of questions about
one of the goddesses. But it's not working and eventually, you do
whatever it takes short of chewing off your arm to get away (which might
come the next morning when you awake at her home if you don't escape
soon)!

Now, that scenario has happened to every fella out there at least once
whether they want to admit it or not. Of course, it never happened to
me because I'm exceptionally secure enough to approach *any* woman! :-)
Things might not turn out the way I like, but I'd rather go out with a
sense of humor than with my head down and my tail between my legs.

You realize that you've basically blown any chance that you had with any
of the other "sistas" because you didn't speak to any of them *first*.
So, you escape and find yourself on the opposite side of the club where
you hope that no one had you pegged with "Moesha's chubby friend". You
get a drink because you *need* one after that scary ordeal. Anyway, you
slowly glance around and there's a reasonably attractive Asian girl
sitting alone not far from you.

As you glance in her general direction your eyes meet hers, she glances
down for a moment then back up almost instantaneously with a deliberiate
stare and a polite smile. You return the polite smile and, like in the
previous scenario, try to nonchalantly look behind you to make sure that
she's not smiling at her fiance who just happens to be standing behind
you. Man, I *hate* when that happens! :-)

Anyway, there's no one behind you as you somehow forgot that you're
leaning against a wall. She chuckles a little at your antics and you're
now obligated to introduce yourself...somehow you get the feeling that
she knows that this is all pre-planned on your part. But later it seems
that *everything* that happened to you that entire evening was
pre-planned by her.

So, what do you talk about? Normal conversation - how refreshing! You
tell her about how your office isn't too far away and you just came here
to unwind. She tells you that she met a girlfriend there who happens to
be out on the dance floor with some guy, etc. You exchange information
about what you both do for a living, etc. Eventually, since you don't
know one another, you tend to focus on things that you both have in
common. Also, you both might have a tendency to be more "open" and
receptive to one another as not to appear to have "racial" barriers.

Her girlfriend makes occasional stops by the table and quickly goes back
to dance with some other guy. The first time you meet the girlfriend,
you notice the obvious smile of approval/encouragement, directed toward
your new friend, as the girlfriend walks away with yet another guy. The
"wild" girlfriend obviously went through more trouble to look sexy and
you get the feeling that she's a bimbo.

Now the discussion turns to the wild girlfriend and you realize that the
girl you're talking to appears to be more selective about whom she
associates with and you interpret your continued presence with her as a
sign of approval. The two of you continue to talk and you eventually end
up on the dance floor together. But as you're dancing, you notice that
the "sistas" are all sitting like judges wacthing you dance with this
Asian girl. One of the goddesses actually rolls her eyes and "Moesha's
chubby friend" gives you a dirty look that could penetrate about a foot of
lead.

So, your essay question is "What's the Problem Here?". Is there a
problem here? Is this a realistic scenario or is it impossible? Did the
fictional "brotha" make a mistake with the "sistas", did they make a
mistake with him, or what the whole thing just the result of bad luck?
If bad luck, why do you think that it was "bad luck"?

How would you *change* the story to your liking? How would you continue
the story to your liking? Was the "brotha" lazy because he ultimately
found the Asian girl more approachable than the "sistas"? Should he have
been content with "Moesha's obnoxious, chubby friend"?

Obviously, most of these questions are meant for personal consideration
but I'm almost willing to offer one of my mother's sweet potato pies to
anyone who has the guts to answer them!

David "Suspects that Ed is ordering extra popcorn" Waters

Sweet Potato Pie Disclaimer:
----------------------------
Only one pie will be awarded to the winner. The judge's ruling is
final! The awarded pie may or may not be partially eaten. The judge is
not responsible for loss of awarded pie due to hungry shippers. In the
event of a tie, the judge may decide to award the pie to himself! :-)

[HarriZone]

In article <347111FA...@NOSPAM.ecn.com>, Kaiju <ka...@NOSPAM.ecn.com>
wrote:

> Africando wrote:> >

> > >>> Black women have had to be strong and now
> > we are critized for it!!! <<<
> >

> > Oh, come on! Being strong is one thing. Being rude
> > and abrasive is another matter.
>
> Oh, Puhleeeze. Being rude and abrasive is never a good thang. However...
>
> Black men, in some cases, can be arrogant,
> self-centered, abrasive, insensitive and rude.
> But it isn't always considered a negative trait.
> It is considered "being a *strong* Black Man",
> which is considered a "positive"...or at least

> we're told it is.

Being rude and abrasive will get a black man into trouble just like anyone
else. I don't know where you're getting the idea that this would be considered
a "Positive".

Africando is correct. There is a difference between being rude and abrasive,
and being a truly _assertive_ individual, which is what a strong person is. An
"strong" person can be assertive without resorting to incivility.

> Placing the blame on some mythical common traits
> of Black women is even worse. (I'd give a more
> descriptive term for it, but it wouldn't get past
> the moderators...)

Mythology is a fictitious phenomena which cannot be observed. What some black
men are complaining about is phenomena which they've seen with their own eyes.

Further, no responsible man would say that they are "Common traits". There are
many positive, decent black women. But the fact is that there is a rather
large subset of African American women who are remarkably negative, who think
being rude and belligerent is ok. It's a social phenomenon which needs to be
recognized rather than dismissed or ignored. Denial won't help anyone.

HarriZone

[Kaiju]

HarriZone wrote:
>
> In article <347111FA...@NOSPAM.ecn.com>, Kaiju <ka...@NOSPAM.ecn.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Africando wrote:> >
>
> > > >>> Black women have had to be strong and now
> > > we are critized for it!!! <<<
> > >
> > > Oh, come on! Being strong is one thing. Being rude
> > > and abrasive is another matter.

[.....]

> > Black men, in some cases, can be arrogant,
> > self-centered, abrasive, insensitive and rude.
> > But it isn't always considered a negative trait.
> > It is considered "being a *strong* Black Man",
> > which is considered a "positive"...or at least
> > we're told it is.
>
> Being rude and abrasive will get a black man into trouble just like anyone
> else.

Of course. Except when it comes to Black women objecting to said behavior,
then it mistakenly explained as being "strong, assertive" behavior.

> I don't know where you're getting the idea that this would be considered
> a "Positive".

Ahem. Observed behavior, perhaps?

> Africando is correct. There is a difference between being rude and abrasive,
> and being a truly _assertive_ individual, which is what a strong person is. An
> "strong" person can be assertive without resorting to incivility.

I'm not disagreeing with your point. I am, however, relating attitudes among
some people. To me rude and abrasive is simply that...and unacceptable. From
whomever. Excuses for indulging in such behavior is even less acceptable to
me, but what I think doesn't stop it from occuring.

> > Placing the blame on some mythical common traits
> > of Black women is even worse. (I'd give a more
> > descriptive term for it, but it wouldn't get past
> > the moderators...)
>
> Mythology is a fictitious phenomena which cannot be observed. What some black
> men are complaining about is phenomena which they've seen with their own eyes.

And thus comes the myth...

> Further, no responsible man would say that they are "Common traits". There are
> many positive, decent black women. But the fact is that there is a rather
> large subset

A "rather large subset"? Hmmmm.... I must not be associating with the wrong
people, then.

> of African American women who are remarkably negative, who think
> being rude and belligerent is ok. It's a social phenomenon which needs to be
> recognized rather than dismissed or ignored. Denial won't help anyone.

Kaiju <who simply must get out more, evidently.../sarcasm off>

[David C. Waters]

[This is what I miss when people don't use PARAGRAPH BREAKS]

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: even in my grandfather's time, light skin women were the penultimate,
: (the ultimate of course being white women). I think this internecine
: racism and caste system is exposed ironically not when black men date
: non black women (take can also talk their trash about black women not
: measuring up) but when black men still value light skinned women. I
: cant wait to see how folks like Waters and Harryzone justify that. are
: they going to claim dark skinned black women or more abrasive than
: light skinned black women?

First of all, who made me partially responsible for justifying why anyone
values anyone else? Hell, I don't even feel the need to justify whom I
value or date to anyone except myself!

I presume that the abrasiveness that you speak of is what another poster
more correctly referred to as "ghetto mentality", although I don't think
that it's exclusive to "the ghetto" or to a particular skin tone. I've
seen the same type of stupidity demonstrated by "white" girls on TV talk
shows.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: also, you also cannot deny that its not
: logical to criticize the behavior of a large number of black women and
: not also incule the other gender that shares the same culture. Unless
: Harrizone and DWaters presents evidence that Black culture
: creates pathological behavior in black women and not in black
: men. I would say it makes more sense for them to say criticize
: black culture in general and say black people are abrasive, this
: would make their logic more consistant.

As far as the light skin v. dark skin issue is concerned, it works on
both sides and the middle of the gender aisle. Furthermore, it's not
unique to African American culture. It's a form of colonial mentality.
The same nonsense is practiced in other cultures, including South America
(Brazil most notably) and Asia/Oceania (including the Philippines).

Frankly, I don't understand how such nonsense exists yet I've actually
witnessed two different occurances of it in the past year alone. How can
some African American people despise racism practiced against them by
"whites" only to turn around and practice "tonism" against other African
Americans? The common denominator that I've noticed is that most people
who subscribe to this silliness were usually raised in the South.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: I think sometimes black women tolerate stuff like what Harrizone and
: Waters say because it seems to give the appearance of
: having some control. "If you are sweet and nice, I will choose
: you" it gives the black males that talk like this a great degree of
: power and an excuse not to deal with their own racial preferences,
: (which they have every : right to indulge in)
: but its a lie. I dont believe for a minute that if black African
: women straight out of Africa who were "unspoiled" by
: AfAmerican behavior would get any more attention by these
: guys than the garden variety black women. its the straight
: hair, the lighter skin and thinner features that gets the play.
: thats all it ever was.

How did I get glued to Harrizone?

More importantly, what's all of this stuff about unspoiled "black"
African women? Do you somehow believe that African women are somehow
more aggressive and/or abrasive than any other women in the world?
Exactly how did you come to *that* conclusion? I think that you have
some stereotyping problems that need to be resolved or you just need to
actually meet people from different continents.

Look, "black" African and Caribbean/Latino women are no more abrasive
than any other women in the world. There is no characteristic profile of
an abrasive/obnoxious woman along the lines of skin tone or where she's
from. The only thing that these women have in common is their relative
immaturity, harmone imbalance, bad hair day, or whatever the hell else is
wrong with 'em whether they're from Africa, Asia, Europe, Oceania, the
Americas, Venus, Mars, or Jupiter! Got it?

There's a TREMENDOUS difference between a woman who happens to be direct
and one who has an attitude/maturity/behaviour problem. Personally, I
prefer direct women infinitely more than indecisive women (hi Brenda) who
can't seem to decide what to wear without consulting the whole staff at
KPMG at least twice!

And by direct, I don't mean loud or unreasonable. I mean someone who can
articulate her own train of thought, at least once or twice in the same
calendar year, and doesn't reinterpret my words as if I was playing
Pictionary or Concentration.

BTW, did you interpret my little "club scene" scenario as some sort of
validation for not dating African American women? If so, you obviously
didn't win the sweet potato pie!

[Quasidemon]

>SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
>: I think sometimes black women tolerate stuff like what Harrizone and
>: Waters say because it seems to give the appearance of
>: having some control. "If you are sweet and nice, I will choose
>: you" it gives the black males that talk like this a great degree of
>: power and an excuse not to deal with their own racial preferences,
>: (which they have every : right to indulge in)
>: but its a lie. I dont believe for a minute that if black African
>: women straight out of Africa who were "unspoiled" by
>: AfAmerican behavior would get any more attention by these
>: guys than the garden variety black women. its the straight
>: hair, the lighter skin and thinner features that gets the play.
>: thats all it ever was.

I think that there's alot more to than just looks, especially for more
sophisticated gentlemen. A couple of years ago I knew this
Nigerian girl who was the leader of a group that I was apart of.
Granted, she was beautiful, but according to you she would
not have been. She was dark skinned, smooth and unblemished,
and had very African features. Although she was very driven,
she was very approachable and would give you her full
attention whenever you'd speak to her. (Hint: very attractive
traits in a woman) Yes, I was somewhat intimidated by her
presence, not because of her color or any of that, but because
I didn't want to say the wrong thing or do something that in the
slightest would be counted against me. It's always puzzled me
why we get that anxious around people we like. Anyway,
some time after we'd worked together, I was to have things
come crashing down over an innocent incident.

One day I was standing at the corner of a road intersection
on our college campus talking with a long-time white female
friend of mine. We were joking and laughing about
something (It was about our goofy math professor who would
drool during class and lean on the chalkboard getting
chalk dust all over his suit.) when Aya, the Nigerian girl, walks by.
(Slow motion on)
I remember turning my head to look at her while I was still
laughing and being a little but pleasantly surprise. My friend
was still talking and carrying on. I said, "Hey!" Aya briefly
looked up at me. Despite the traffic, I know she heard me.
The blank expression on her face didn't change. But she
walked right in between my friend and I not saying a word.
I felt a cold chill as she passed by, and my mood changed
instantly to something I can barely describe as hurt. My friend
almost instantly responded as my attention was drawn away and
my state had changed. For some reason, I felt like I had done
something wrong, like I wasn't supposed to be speaking to
this white female friend that I had known for so long. My
friend sensed it also, and her reaction and afterthoughts were
typical of cutthroat female behavior. But, I was left with the
fact that my relationship with Aya had somehow changed
forever because of this brief but innocent incident.

She would never know that I liked her because in her
mind I was one of those brotha's who had strayed. Sad.

-John Clarke

[Marci Wright]

Quasidemon wrote:

>I said, "Hey!" Aya briefly
>looked up at me. Despite the traffic, I know she heard me.
>The blank expression on her face didn't change. But she
>walked right in between my friend and I not saying a word.
>I felt a cold chill as she passed by, and my mood changed
>instantly to something I can barely describe as hurt.

And therefore you conclude that she ignored you b/c of a white friend.
Maybe - just maybe - she didn't recognize you at the time. I've been so
deep in thought that I've looked straight into the face of an aqcuaintance
and not known who they were or acknowledged their presence. As a matter
of fact I've been upbraided by a co-worker who insisted that I purposely
ignored her, even though I promised I didn't remember seeing her.

Please don't assume the worst in black women; that if she didn't speak, it
*had* to be b/c of some race vendetta. That isn't fair.

Marci Wright

ma...@uab.edu
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

"Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or
something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at
Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call
Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising
nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left
that open to us. He did not intend to."

C.S. Lewis

[Dat Fuule]

Marci Wright wrote:
>

<cuts for space>

>
> Please don't assume the worst in black women; that if she didn't speak, it
> *had* to be b/c of some race vendetta. That isn't fair.
>
> Marci Wright

Quick question here: can brothers be cut the same kind of slack? I've
had a similar assumption cast my way, and the individual casting it made
an ass out of herself and of... umption.

J.Harkless

[ronald h. davis]

Marci Wright wrote:
>
> Quasidemon wrote:
>
> >I said, "Hey!" Aya briefly
> >looked up at me. Despite the traffic, I know she heard me.
> >The blank expression on her face didn't change. But she
> >walked right in between my friend and I not saying a word.
> >I felt a cold chill as she passed by, and my mood changed
> >instantly to something I can barely describe as hurt.
>

> ignored her, even though I promised I didn't remember seeing her.
>

> Please don't assume the worst in black women; that if she didn't speak, it
> *had* to be b/c of some race vendetta. That isn't fair.
>

i tend to agree that the man was probably being a bit overly
sensitive here, but actually, i thought that he described her
behavior as being "typical of cutthroat female behavior" which
to me suggested that he wasn't assuming the worst in black women
in particular.

as far as i'm concerned, the "love" game is a pretty cutthroat
business in general, so this kind of behavior is *not* limited
to women in my opinion...which is why i always say: "there's
nothing romantic about love."

--
__ ______ __ / __/ |
_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/ .
it's gonna be some stuff you're gonna see
that's gonna make it hard to smile in the future
but through whatever you see,
through all the rain, and the pain,
you gotta keep your sense of humor,
you gotta be able to smile through all this...
so keep your head up
-tupac shakur

[SVCORBIN]

Quasidemon saids:> A couple of years ago I knew this

>Nigerian girl who was the leader of a group that I was apart of.
>Granted, she was beautiful, but according to you she would
>not have been. She was dark skinned, smooth and unblemished,
>and had very African features.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: according to me? what are you talking about. in my note
I was discussing not my standards of beauty, but the standards
that is imprinted by this modern society and that still affects so
many lives. Dont you understand the difference? I was discussing the racial
caste system that still exists. >Although she was very driven,

>she was very approachable and would give you her full
>attention whenever you'd speak to her. (Hint: very attractive
>traits in a woman) Yes, I was somewhat intimidated by her
>presence, not because of her color or any of that, but because
>I didn't want to say the wrong thing or do something that in the
>slightest would be counted against me. It's always puzzled me
>why we get that anxious around people we like. Anyway,
>some time after we'd worked together, I was to have things
>come crashing down over an innocent incident.
>
>One day I was standing at the corner of a road intersection
>on our college campus talking with a long-time white female
>friend of mine. We were joking and laughing about
>something (It was about our goofy math professor who would
>drool during class and lean on the chalkboard getting
>chalk dust all over his suit.) when Aya, the Nigerian girl, walks by.
>(Slow motion on)
>I remember turning my head to look at her while I was still
>laughing and being a little but pleasantly surprise. My friend

>was still talking and carrying on. I said, "Hey!" Aya briefly

>looked up at me. Despite the traffic, I know she heard me.
>The blank expression on her face didn't change. But she
>walked right in between my friend and I not saying a word.
>I felt a cold chill as she passed by, and my mood changed

>instantly to something I can barely describe as hurt. My friend
>almost instantly responded as my attention was drawn away and
>my state had changed. For some reason, I felt like I had done
>something wrong, like I wasn't supposed to be speaking to
>this white female friend that I had known for so long. My
>friend sensed it also, and her reaction and afterthoughts were
>typical of cutthroat female behavior. But, I was left with the
>fact that my relationship with Aya had somehow changed
>forever because of this brief but innocent incident.
>
>She would never know that I liked her because in her
>mind I was one of those brotha's who had strayed. Sad.
>
>
>
>
>-John Clarke

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
oookay...... what point are you trying to make? she misunderstood and you
didnt know how to talk to her? I hope you are not
once again saying she is the one driving you to date non racially
COME ON, DUDE. IF you were really interested, and it was that important to
you, what is to keep you from pulling yourself from your friend and going to
talk to her? what stopped you? its obvious it wasnt that important to you. You
chose to stay there with your friend, which was your perogative. but quit
crying about
how uncomfortable and guilty you felt. WHY? you made a
choice not to pursue her. she didnt tell you to not talk to her,
did she?most of her rejection is in your head.
now, back to what I was talking about. Yes, it is more than
looks, color status also is a factor. I am not excluding other
factors in saying what a wonderdul female would be, I am just
saying that color is still a big factor in choosing a mate.

[SVCORBIN]

David Waters saids:

>[This is what I miss when people don't use PARAGRAPH BREAKS]
>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: I dont know what you are talking about, I am only AOL and I see
paragraph breaks in my postings.

>
>First of all, who made me partially responsible for justifying why anyone
>values anyone else? Hell, I don't even feel the need to justify whom I
>value or date to anyone except myself!
>
>

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
oh, you dont like the word "justify"? fine, we wont
quibble about that. If you didnt feel the need to explain or justify
why you date someone of another race, what was the purpose
of that "i went to a party and the black women were inadequate
so I choose a asian women, instead" story. why did you tell it? I thought you
were explaining the situations of men like you and Snipes. but maybe you were
just telling a story that had no
meanting at all. I must have missed the punchline.
+++++++++++++++++++
DW saids:

>I presume that the abrasiveness that you speak of is what another poster
>more correctly referred to as "ghetto mentality", although I don't think
>that it's exclusive to "the ghetto" or to a particular skin tone. I've
>seen the same type of stupidity demonstrated by "white" girls on TV talk
>shows.

++++++++++++++++++++++++
I object to calling it "ghetto mentality" for one thing, not thats my peeve.
especially since its not peculiar to black women.

>As far as the light skin v. dark skin issue is concerned, it works on
>both sides and the middle of the gender aisle. Furthermore, it's not
>unique to African American culture. It's a form of colonial mentality.
>The same nonsense is practiced in other cultures, including South America
>(Brazil most notably) and Asia/Oceania (including the Philippines).
>
>Frankly, I don't understand how such nonsense exists yet I've actually
>witnessed two different occurances of it in the past year alone. How can
>some African American people despise racism practiced against them by
>"whites" only to turn around and practice "tonism" against other African
>Americans? The common denominator that I've noticed is that most people
>who subscribe to this silliness were usually raised in the South.
>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: take the time to read the book THE COLOR COMPLEX.
its not just related to folks in the south, and yes its a global
problem, especially where white supremacy exist. I never
said it was unique to AA.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DW saids:

>
>More importantly, what's all of this stuff about unspoiled "black"
>African women? Do you somehow believe that African women are somehow
>more aggressive and/or abrasive than any other women in the world?
>Exactly how did you come to *that* conclusion? I think that you have
>some stereotyping problems that need to be resolved or you just need to
>actually meet people from different continents.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: Mr Waters you are not paying attention. first of all
you got it mixed up.
African American women are criticize by this society by
being to hostile, mean, angry, etc. in other words their
BEHAVIOR is substandard, hence that is why black men
go for non AA women. I am saying that even if black women
who where not American or "unspoiled" , they would not
get the attention that non black women get. this is not about the
behavior of black women. its about the color caste system
that still exist. How could read what I wrote and claim I said
african women were more agressive?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DW said:>Caribbean/Latino women are no more abrasive

>than any other women in the world. There is no characteristic profile of
>an abrasive/obnoxious woman along the lines of skin tone or where she's
>from. The only thing that these women have in common is their relative
>immaturity, harmone imbalance, bad hair day, or whatever the hell else is
>wrong with 'em whether they're from Africa, Asia, Europe, Oceania, the
>Americas, Venus, Mars, or Jupiter! Got it?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: not only do I have it, I had before you ever did.
I have kept saying that it is not the behavior of black women
is different, and needs to change. Your story about you going to a little
party is contradictory to what you now proclaim.
what were you trying to say about black women when you
gave your example? the only woman that was down to
earth and pretty enough for you was asian , you seems to be
implying a difference of behavior among black women affected your choice. are
you saying you were wrong?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DW saids:

>BTW, did you interpret my little "club scene" scenario as some sort of
>validation for not dating African American women? If so, you obviously
>didn't win the sweet potato pie!
>--

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you didnt intend to use the club scene as a validation for
not dating AA women, then WHY DO YOU MENTION THE
RACE OF THE WOMEN IN THE FIRST PLACE?

[Mazoozz]

>Subject: Re: Wesley Snipes: Dissin the sisters (or not) in Ebony Mag
>interview?

>From: quasi...@aol.com (Quasidemon)
>Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 22:31 EST
>Message-id: <19971206191...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
>
>

>She would never know that I liked her because in her
>mind I was one of those brotha's who had strayed. Sad.

Interesting story. Are you should it couldn't have been something else you did?
That would seem VERY bizarre that you would get a reaction like that from any
intelligent person. If you were doing nothing but chatting with this lady,
thats no reason to think you guys were involved. I could even see if you were
holding hands or kissing(not that that would justify anger towards you). Don't
worry though, if she's that close-minded, she's probably not worth the time.
Especially when you had made the initiative to say hi. It's not as if she spoke
to you and you ignored her while continuing talking to the white girl.

[Marci Wright]

Dat Fuule wrote:

>Quick question here: can brothers be cut the same kind of slack?

Yes. If it is a one time deal. Usually a person who has a problem with
inter-racial dating ends up saying something about it eventually, anyway.
It just isn't right to assume right off the bat, that this is how someone
is feeling, though - just b/c they didn't speak.

Marci Wright

ma...@uab.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------
"If you want to define water, don't ask a fish. If you want to
define the world, don't ask a man."

Ravi Zacharias

[David C. Waters]

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
[snipped strange reaction to my semi-fictional story]

Let me ask this...of what concern is it to an AfAm woman to see an AfAm
man with a non-AfAm woman? Likewise, of what concern is it to an AfAm
man to see an AfAm woman with a non-AfAm man?

What am I talking about specifically? I'm talking about the attitude
that criticizes someone, whom they've never seen before, simply because
they're seen with a person of a different "race" and gender.

Since this is about Wesley Snipes dissin' the sistas, let's stick with
the example of an AfAm male dating an Asian (or any other non-AfAm)
female...

Of what interest is it to AfAm females whether Wesley Snipes (or any
other AfAm man) dates an Asian female? A "white" female? A Latino
female? Are AfAm men required to seek the approval of AfAm women
before they date non-AfAm women?

Is it a personal insult to certain AfAm women when they see AfAm men with
non-AfAm women? Why, is it because certain women assume that the only
reason why that AfAm man is with a non-AfAm woman is because she's Asian,
"white", Latino/Hispanic, or whatever? Would anyone admit to being so
shallow in their thinking to assume that others are just as shallow?

Okay, for the sake of argument let's say this *is* the case. And I'll
even suggest that this is most likely the case for someone with OJ
Simpson's or Ward Connerly's mentality about "race". What I'm talking
about is the AfAm person who somehow sees himself as being "more than",
"above", or "beyond" African American or "black". In other words,
someone who (believes in and) feels that they've attained "white"
privilege due to some sort of acceptance they feel.

In this specific case, the Simpson-Connerly mentality is one that
basically believes that "white" is inherently better than "black". In
this case, why should any AfAm woman even bother being upset by someone
who holds such insane beliefs? What's the point? Are they really worth
having or would you rather kidnap them for "deprogramming"?

I think that the problem is that the Simpson-Connerly mentality is
assumed all too often of AfAm men who date non-AfAm women. But more
interestingly is that it doesn't just apply to non-AfAm women. Sometimes
the same resentment is held against an AfAm man with a light-skinned AfAm
woman. Now, this really doesn't make sense but it happens.

Now keep in mind that some AfAm men hold the same resentment toward AfAm
women for the same stupid reasons. But the bottom line is that the whole
issue boils down to some sort of skin color complex that people have to
resolve in their own minds. If you assume that other people think that
"lighter is better" then what does that say about what *you* think?

Some AfAm women have complained that the de facto standard of beauty is
of "white" females with the latest "Playmate of the Month" at the
pinnacle. Sure, there are lots of men who subscribe to that. There are
also lots of women who subscribe to the idea of Fabio and many of the men
on those "top ten" lists. So what? It's all just media.

Healthy people value what's real to them and, unless they've got serious
problems dealing with reality, what's real is what they're most familiar
with on a day-to-day basis. So, at the very least, the next time you see
an "interracial" couple ask yourself whether it's a "day-to-day" variety
of relationship or of the Simpson-Connerly (trophy) mentality.

[Quasidemon]

>Marci Wright wrote:
>>
>> Quasidemon wrote:
>>

>> >I said, "Hey!" Aya briefly
>> >looked up at me. Despite the traffic, I know she heard me.
>> >The blank expression on her face didn't change. But she
>> >walked right in between my friend and I not saying a word.
>> >I felt a cold chill as she passed by, and my mood changed
>> >instantly to something I can barely describe as hurt.
>>

>> ignored her, even though I promised I didn't remember seeing her.
>>
>> Please don't assume the worst in black women; that if she didn't speak, it
>> *had* to be b/c of some race vendetta. That isn't fair.
>>
>
>i tend to agree that the man was probably being a bit overly
>sensitive here, but actually, i thought that he described her
>behavior as being "typical of cutthroat female behavior" which
>to me suggested that he wasn't assuming the worst in black women
>in particular.

Since, in my view, race was such a high profile thing in our
encounter, I tend to be that Aya's (perceived) attitude change
was because I was talking to a white female. It could have
been cutthroat behavior, but I could never sense that Aya
liked me. In any case, she's just one female, and I don't
want to get painted with the same brush people seem to be
painting Wesley with.

>as far as i'm concerned, the "love" game is a pretty cutthroat
>business in general, so this kind of behavior is *not* limited
>to women in my opinion...which is why i always say: "there's
>nothing romantic about love."

I don't know. (Shields on) But, women can be quite vicious and
underhanded when it comes to the love game. Talk about mind
games; they are masters. I tend to believe that men are a little
more honorable and even though we do act like dogs, we are
really very simple.

>--
> __ ______ __ / __/ |
>_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/ .

-John Clarke

[Quasidemon]

>Quasidemon wrote:
>
>>I said, "Hey!" Aya briefly
>>looked up at me. Despite the traffic, I know she heard me.
>>The blank expression on her face didn't change. But she
>>walked right in between my friend and I not saying a word.
>>I felt a cold chill as she passed by, and my mood changed
>>instantly to something I can barely describe as hurt.
>
>

>And therefore you conclude that she ignored you b/c of a white friend.
>Maybe - just maybe - she didn't recognize you at the time. I've been so
>deep in thought that I've looked straight into the face of an aqcuaintance
>and not known who they were or acknowledged their presence. As a matter
>of fact I've been upbraided by a co-worker who insisted that I purposely

>ignored her, even though I promised I didn't remember seeing her.

Granted, I never mentioned it to her, but, come on, she walked
right in between us. I have never been that clueless, and I HIGHLY
doubt that it was because she didn't recognize me.

Who knows maybe I change my behavior from being embarassed from
God-knows-whats, but she never seems as cheerful around me as she
once was. Oh yeh, I failed to mention that the group that we were apart
of was an All-Black student group dedicated to changing discriminatory
racial practices on our white campus.

>Please don't assume the worst in black women; that if she didn't speak, it
>*had* to be b/c of some race vendetta. That isn't fair.

Marci, I don't assume this about ALL Black women. What? Do you
think I'm stupid or something? But, I'm sure a few brotha's out there
can attest to the instant damnation we get from SOME Black females.
Mine just seemed to happen from a girl I liked.

>Marci Wright
>
>ma...@uab.edu
><>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
>
>"Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or
>something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at
>Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call
>Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising
>nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left
>that open to us. He did not intend to."
>
> C.S. Lewis

-John Clarke

[Gabrielle Theresa Daniels]

On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Dat Fuule wrote back to Marci:

> > Please don't assume the worst in black women; that if she didn't speak, it
> > *had* to be b/c of some race vendetta. That isn't fair.
> >

> > Marci Wright
>
> Quick question here: can brothers be cut the same kind of slack? I've
> had a similar assumption cast my way, and the individual casting it made
> an ass out of herself and of... umption.

Look, let's get out of essentially a moot situation.

I've been dogged more times than I can count by brothers who are too
stuck up to simply say good morning, hello, excuse me or any other
courteous greeting or acknowledgement.

Then again, I have also dogged brothers for reasons not even stemming
from courtship, friendship, or acquaintanceship, but plain and simply
being tired, pissed off at my own set of standards being shot down,
wanting to be left alone, and being distrustful of ANY man approaching
me without a signal, overt or covert. A brother seeing I was disturbed
and wanting offer some encouragement or helpful comment is a great
human being in such situations. But brothers oughta be prepared for the
flipness that comes from trying to touch sisters deep in this kind of
vibe. They just don't wanna be bothered. And probably later, sister
will say to herself, "Shit, why did I do that to brother?" And it's too
late.

So we are at quits in both situations.

I want to point out again that this society and our subculture insists
that women, and black women, be responsive to men to the point of being
ready at all times. This kind of expectation is fraught with billion
dollar misunderstandings, like the above scenario, and what has fed this
post.

I repeat, not all sisters are head wagging zeroes wanting to dig their
fingers in anyone's craw. And not all brothers are trying not to look
hard in your direction when he's looking at the
white/Asian/Chicana/Latina women...he may not even be looking thataway.
All I am saying is, making sisters the ones responsible for this state
of affairs is just another blame game widening the gap between black men
and women. People oughta be checking the messenger's game before they
start buying it at the toy store.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Quand na pas maman, tete gran'maman."
(LOUISIANA Creole)
-When one has no mother, one must be suckled by one's grandmother.-

[Dat Fuule]

SVCORBIN wrote:
>
> Quasidemon saids:> A couple of years ago I knew this

<cuts for space>

> >(Slow motion on)
> >I remember turning my head to look at her while I was still
> >laughing and being a little but pleasantly surprise. My friend

> >was still talking and carrying on. I said, "Hey!" Aya briefly

> >looked up at me. Despite the traffic, I know she heard me.
> >The blank expression on her face didn't change. But she
> >walked right in between my friend and I not saying a word.
> >I felt a cold chill as she passed by, and my mood changed

> >instantly to something I can barely describe as hurt. My friend
> >almost instantly responded as my attention was drawn away and
> >my state had changed. For some reason, I felt like I had done
> >something wrong, like I wasn't supposed to be speaking to
> >this white female friend that I had known for so long. My
> >friend sensed it also, and her reaction and afterthoughts were
> >typical of cutthroat female behavior. But, I was left with the
> >fact that my relationship with Aya had somehow changed
> >forever because of this brief but innocent incident.
> >

> >She would never know that I liked her because in her
> >mind I was one of those brotha's who had strayed. Sad.
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >-John Clarke
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> oookay...... what point are you trying to make? she misunderstood and you
> didnt know how to talk to her?

Does saying "Hey!" not count as knowing how to talk to her?

> I hope you are not
> once again saying she is the one driving you to date non racially

The last line says the opposite of what you're saying. At least that's
how it reads to me: "...because in her mind I was one of those brotha's
who had strayed. Sad." In her mind, he said. *In her mind*.

> COME ON, DUDE. IF you were really interested, and it was that important to
> you, what is to keep you from pulling yourself from your friend and going to
> talk to her?

Okay, are we reading the same story? He stopped a converstion he was
having to try to start speaking, and got ignored, dissed, and
dismissed. I suppose he was supposed to run up after her, cutting off a
conversation with a friend, like a little lost puppy, beholden to her
every move?

> what stopped you? its obvious it wasnt that important to you. You

But important enough to write about, far after the fact.

> chose to stay there with your friend, which was your perogative. but quit
> crying about
> how uncomfortable and guilty you felt. WHY? you made a
> choice not to pursue her.

Yep. Chase down somebody who can't speak back. Oookaay.... And I ain't
e'en gonna talk about how she (some would say) *rudely* strolled between
them, cold as Ward Connerly's reception at a N.O.I. meeting.

> she didnt tell you to not talk to her,

Oh, this is classic female equivocation. Usually, when someone fails to
return a greeting, I take it as "I don't want to talk to you." But
because she didn't *say* "don't talk to me", he still should. Of
course, if he then speaks after the rebuff, he's needlessly getting in
her grill and should've known from the body language....

> did she?most of her rejection is in your head.

I disagree.

J.Harkless

[David C. Waters]

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: David Waters saids:
: >[This is what I miss when people don't use PARAGRAPH BREAKS]
: >
: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

: shelleyc: I dont know what you are talking about, I am only AOL and I see
: paragraph breaks in my postings.

: >
: >First of all, who made me partially responsible for justifying why anyone

: >values anyone else? Hell, I don't even feel the need to justify whom I
: >value or date to anyone except myself!

: >
: >
: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

: oh, you dont like the word "justify"? fine, we wont
: quibble about that. If you didnt feel the need to explain or justify
: why you date someone of another race, what was the purpose
: of that "i went to a party and the black women were inadequate
: so I choose a asian women, instead" story. why did you tell it? I thought you
: were explaining the situations of men like you and Snipes. but maybe you were
: just telling a story that had no
: meanting at all. I must have missed the punchline.
: +++++++++++++++++++
: DW saids:

: >I presume that the abrasiveness that you speak of is what another poster

: >more correctly referred to as "ghetto mentality", although I don't think
: >that it's exclusive to "the ghetto" or to a particular skin tone. I've
: >seen the same type of stupidity demonstrated by "white" girls on TV talk
: >shows.

: ++++++++++++++++++++++++

: I object to calling it "ghetto mentality" for one thing, not thats my peeve.
: especially since its not peculiar to black women.

: >As far as the light skin v. dark skin issue is concerned, it works on

: >both sides and the middle of the gender aisle. Furthermore, it's not
: >unique to African American culture. It's a form of colonial mentality.
: >The same nonsense is practiced in other cultures, including South America
: >(Brazil most notably) and Asia/Oceania (including the Philippines).
: >
: >Frankly, I don't understand how such nonsense exists yet I've actually
: >witnessed two different occurances of it in the past year alone. How can
: >some African American people despise racism practiced against them by
: >"whites" only to turn around and practice "tonism" against other African
: >Americans? The common denominator that I've noticed is that most people
: >who subscribe to this silliness were usually raised in the South.

: >
: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

: shelleyc: take the time to read the book THE COLOR COMPLEX.
: its not just related to folks in the south, and yes its a global
: problem, especially where white supremacy exist. I never
: said it was unique to AA.
: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: DW saids:

: >
: >More importantly, what's all of this stuff about unspoiled "black"

: >African women? Do you somehow believe that African women are somehow
: >more aggressive and/or abrasive than any other women in the world?
: >Exactly how did you come to *that* conclusion? I think that you have
: >some stereotyping problems that need to be resolved or you just need to
: >actually meet people from different continents.

: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

: shelleyc: Mr Waters you are not paying attention. first of all
: you got it mixed up.
: African American women are criticize by this society by
: being to hostile, mean, angry, etc. in other words their
: BEHAVIOR is substandard, hence that is why black men
: go for non AA women. I am saying that even if black women
: who where not American or "unspoiled" , they would not
: get the attention that non black women get. this is not about the
: behavior of black women. its about the color caste system
: that still exist. How could read what I wrote and claim I said
: african women were more agressive?
: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

: DW said:>Caribbean/Latino women are no more abrasive

: >than any other women in the world. There is no characteristic profile of
: >an abrasive/obnoxious woman along the lines of skin tone or where she's
: >from. The only thing that these women have in common is their relative
: >immaturity, harmone imbalance, bad hair day, or whatever the hell else is
: >wrong with 'em whether they're from Africa, Asia, Europe, Oceania, the
: >Americas, Venus, Mars, or Jupiter! Got it?

: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

: shelleyc: not only do I have it, I had before you ever did.
: I have kept saying that it is not the behavior of black women
: is different, and needs to change. Your story about you going to a little
: party is contradictory to what you now proclaim.
: what were you trying to say about black women when you
: gave your example? the only woman that was down to
: earth and pretty enough for you was asian , you seems to be
: implying a difference of behavior among black women affected your choice. are
: you saying you were wrong?
: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: DW saids:

: >BTW, did you interpret my little "club scene" scenario as some sort of

: >validation for not dating African American women? If so, you obviously
: >didn't win the sweet potato pie!
: >--

: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

: If you didnt intend to use the club scene as a validation for
: not dating AA women, then WHY DO YOU MENTION THE
: RACE OF THE WOMEN IN THE FIRST PLACE?

--

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/_/ David C. Waters, Jr. _/_/ Integrated Business Solutions _/_/
_/_/ Multimedia Business Answers _/_/ Video Audio CD-ROM Publishing _/_/
_/_/ E-Mail: mba...@netcom.com _/_/ World Wide Web and TV Access! _/_/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

========================================= MODERATOR COMMENT
MOD: Context.

[David C. Waters]

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: If you didnt feel the need to explain or justify

: why you date someone of another race, what was the purpose
: of that "i went to a party and the black women were inadequate
: so I choose a asian women, instead" story. why did you tell it? I
: thought you were explaining the situations of men like you and Snipes.
: but maybe you were just telling a story that had no meanting at all. I
: must have missed the punchline.

Besides misquoting parts of the story, somehow you missed the WHOLE POINT!

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: shelleyc: Mr Waters you are not paying attention. first of all
: you got it mixed up.
: African American women are criticize by this society by
: being to hostile, mean, angry, etc. in other words their
: BEHAVIOR is substandard, hence that is why black men
: go for non AA women.

First of all, not *all* AfAm women are hostile, mean, angry, etc.
Secondly, not all "black" men go for non-AfAm women.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: I am saying that even if black women

: who where not American or "unspoiled" , they would not
: get the attention that non black women get. this is not about the
: behavior of black women. its about the color caste system
: that still exist. How could read what I wrote and claim I said
: african women were more agressive?

It sounds like your whole argument is based on the presumtion that AfAm
women are judged as less desirable because of the color of their skin.
If so, why are you wasting your time arguing with me? Why don't you take
this up with the Ward Connerlys and OJ Simpsons of the world who seem to
have that point of view?

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: I have kept saying that it is not the behavior of black women
: is different, and needs to change. Your story about you going to a little
: party is contradictory to what you now proclaim.

No it isn't. The problem is your interpretation/comprehension of the
story. It was offered for discussion or modification. Somehow you
managed to interpret it as the scripture according to me.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: what were you trying to say about black women when you
: gave your example? the only woman that was down to
: earth and pretty enough for you was asian , you seems to be
: implying a difference of behavior among black women affected your
: choice. are you saying you were wrong?

[...]

: If you didnt intend to use the club scene as a validation for
: not dating AA women, then WHY DO YOU MENTION THE
: RACE OF THE WOMEN IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Feel free to *READ* the story again to figure out who the first, second,
and third choices were. Also, how "pretty" was the Asian woman compared
to how the first, second, and third choices were described? Besides,
what happened in the story to cause *you* so much grief?

[Rich Thompson]

On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, David C. Waters wrote:

(much meat snipped to get to:)

> Since this is about Wesley Snipes dissin' the sistas, let's stick with
> the example of an AfAm male dating an Asian (or any other non-AfAm)
> female...
>
> Of what interest is it to AfAm females whether Wesley Snipes (or any
> other AfAm man) dates an Asian female?

I'm not sure that that was the main thing that people are objecting as far
as taht interview goes.
Did you read the piece, David?
It's not so much that he's dating an Asian woman, but *why* he's doing so.

Peace,
Rich

Richard Thompson
Department of Psychology
McGill University
1205 Dr. Penfield Ave.
Montreal, Quebec
H3A 1B1
(514) 398-7425

"If what is within you is brought forth, it will save you. If what is
within you is not brought forth, it will destroy you."
-The Gnostic Gosples

[Rich Thompson]

On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Marci Wright wrote:

> Yes. If it is a one time deal. Usually a person who has a problem with
> inter-racial dating ends up saying something about it eventually, anyway.

But the "problem with interracial dating" isn't even the main issue with
John's story (IMHO). I don't have any problem with people who have
problems with interracial dating. Heck, even my girlfriend has problems
with interracial dating.
But here's my question: why, just because you see someone talking with a
member of the opposite sex in a friendly manner, do you assume that
there's something romantic going on? That's what bothers me about John's
story.

By the way, I read the article in question. Snipes seemed to be trying to
backpedal a lot in terms of what he was saying (implicitly) about Black
women. But I suspect from how he described what he wants in a woman that
few of the women I know would be up for that kind of thing anyway...

[Marci Wright]

Dat Fuule wrote:

>SVCORBIN wrote:
>> did she?most of her rejection is in your head.

>I disagree.

I have three questions for John Clarke: Did you ever ask her why she
didn't speak that day? Did you ever ask her how she felt about your
non-Afram friendships? Did you ever ask her whether she viewed you
differently after that incident?

If you haven't asked her, please do, and then tell us what she said -
before we cut each others' heads off, here.

John wrote:
>But, women can be quite vicious and
>underhanded when it comes to the love game. Talk about mind
>games; they are masters. I tend to believe that men are a little
>more honorable and even though we do act like dogs, we are
>really very simple.

Now I see... you *do* want to take it to that level.

[ronald h. davis]

David C. Waters wrote:
>
> In this specific case, the Simpson-Connerly mentality is one that
> basically believes that "white" is inherently better than "black". In
> this case, why should any AfAm woman even bother being upset by someone
> who holds such insane beliefs? What's the point? Are they really worth
> having or would you rather kidnap them for "deprogramming"?
>

i think that this is an easy question to answer. for instance, you
could argue that "blackface" performances by people like al jolson
were also insane. but the reason why you worry about them is for
the image that it projects to people both black and white. i'm
going to take your word for it on the depictions of the thoughts
of simpson/connerly, but what it does is reinforce to the image of
black people as being second class, by suggesting that one "earns"
their way to higher regard. this should be of concern to both black
men as well as women because it suggests that black men start out as
being second rate and only through "luck and pluck" (to use horatio
alger phrasing) they earn the right to be "better" than "just black".

--
__ ______ __ / __/ |
_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/ .

[SVCORBIN]

David Waters said:
>Let me ask this...of what concern is it to an AfAm woman to see an AfAm
>man with a non-AfAm woman? Likewise, of what concern is it to an AfAm
>man to see an AfAm woman with a non-AfAm man?
>
>What am I talking about specifically? I'm talking about the attitude
>that criticizes someone, whom they've never seen before, simply because
>they're seen with a person of a different "race" and gender.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelley:
will you PLEASE pay attention. this subject is about what Wesley
Snipes said about Black women. He claimed it was about the behavior of black
women. I said that had nothing to do with behavoir but with the same old racial
caste systems of beauty among other things. you posted a story that would agree
with Snipes contention, then in a later note you say all women behave

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
lets not play games please. the fact are this:
1. we ALL know that people can date whomever they want.
marry who they want, live where they want to, work where they
want to, worship wherever they want to, so lets not clog up the
boards with this nonsense.
2.

[SVCORBIN]

>
>The last line says the opposite of what you're saying. At least that's
>how it reads to me: "...because in her mind I was one of those brotha's
>who had strayed. Sad." In her mind, he said. *In her mind*.
>
>

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: how does he know what is going on in her mind? she showed no emotion,
she said noting.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

J Harkless said:
>Okay, are we reading the same story? He stopped a converstion he was
>having to try to start speaking, and got ignored, dissed, and
>dismissed. I suppose he was supposed to run up after her, cutting off a
>conversation with a friend, like a little lost puppy, beholden to her
>every move?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: I wasnt trying to tell him what he should and shouldnt have done, as
I said, staying to speak with his friend was more important to him than trying
to clear up what he thinks might be a misunderstanding. He made a choice and
its his choice to make.
I didnt say he was supposed to stop talking to the white lady and run after the
black one. I said he made a choice and be happy with the decision he made.

[SVCORBIN]

D waters:

<But more
interestingly is that it doesn't just apply to non-AfAm women. Sometimes
the same resentment is held against an AfAm man with a light-skinned AfAm
woman. Now, this really doesn't make sense but it happens.>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyC: I know this happens, but you dont flip the other side of the coin,
there is still a color prefence toward light skin in females in the black
community. the way you make it sound like once again, they feel resentment for
no reason. this is dishonest.
this is something that has to worked throughout community, but
BOTH issues MUST dealt with.

[ronald h. davis]

Quasidemon wrote:
>
> I don't know. (Shields on) But, women can be quite vicious and

> underhanded when it comes to the love game. Talk about mind
> games; they are masters. I tend to believe that men are a little
> more honorable and even though we do act like dogs, we are
> really very simple.
>

...and i'm sure that a lot of women think that women are more
honorable. it's a convenient rationalization, and the one that
you've made here isn't plausible at all.

[SVCORBIN]

david waters;

<Some AfAm women have complained that the de facto standard of beauty is
of "white" females with the latest "Playmate of the Month" at the
pinnacle. Sure, there are lots of men who subscribe to that. There are
also lots of women who subscribe to the idea of Fabio and many of the men
on those "top ten" lists. So what? It's all just media.>

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If all you are willing to do is give flippant answers to how destructive white
supremacy is, then its a wonder to me why you keep posting..90% of what a
little black girl sees is blue eyed blonds and all you do is shug your
shoulders and say so what?
I am amazed at how sensitive the media has become to an issue
like anorexia nervosa and how the thin obsession has affected white girls, but
study the issue of what drowing in white images is doing not doing to the black
self image of females, and folks want to dismiss and say so what. we have tooo
many silly folks in our community... but a word on the media. It is high time
for black women in particular to start agressively supporting and building
better media institutions that fit to our needs.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

david waters said:
Healthy people value what's real to them and, unless they've got serious
problems dealing with reality, what's real is what they're most familiar with
on a day-to-day basis. So, at the very least, the next time you see an
"interracial" couple ask yourself whether it's a "day-to-day" variety of
relationship or of the Simpson-Connerly (trophy) mentality.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
still trying to distance yourself from the Simpson-connerly, what are you
trying to say, anyway? what does this day to day stuff mean anyway. the black
man is not rich and powerful, therefore its a "healthy" relationship? I dont
quite know what you point is
but let me say this.
white/near white skin, straight hair, thin features has status in this society,
especially if it is in females. now, is it possible to have a "healthy" normal
relationship conciously or most conciously taking this into account when
choosing a mate? I would guess so.
whatever "normal" means.

[ronald h. davis]

Marci Wright wrote:
>
> I have three questions for John Clarke: Did you ever ask her why she
> didn't speak that day? Did you ever ask her how she felt about your
> non-Afram friendships? Did you ever ask her whether she viewed you
> differently after that incident?
>

wait a minute. let's assume that clarke was right in his assumptions
for the moment. do you *really* expect her to come right out and say
so?

go ahead and say "yes" even though we all know that the real answer
is "no". sure, everybody likes to talk about how much they like
"honesty" and all, but in this and so many other things rhetoric and
reality are often two different things.

[SVCORBIN]

David waters:

<Now keep in mind that some AfAm men hold the same resentment toward AfAm
women for the same stupid reasons. But the bottom line is that the whole
issue boils down to some sort of skin color complex that people have to
resolve in their own minds. If you assume that other people think that
"lighter is better" then what does that say about what *you* think?>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: what do you mean resolve in their own minds? this is not
JUST about what people are doing in their heads, it has been and is showing up
in our culture/community. back in the 30's and the cotton club, only high
yellas need apply. its even happening now... there has been controversy in rap
videos about the propensity to choose light skinned females, it got so
noticiable, one rapper who wanted to take his part and do dark skinned
women some justice but out a song called "black berry", also
light skinned males sometimes have the opposite problems, not
being black enough for roles and parts, etc. the whole thing is a
mess. culture affects the individual, that has the be addressed, its not just
about what goes on in our heads. and what does it say about me? its saids I
have read up on what I am talking about.

[SVCORBIN]

John clarke said:
<In any case, she's just one female, and I don't
want to get painted with the same brush people seem to be
painting Wesley with.>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc:
this is not right, Snipes can paint black women with a broad brush in a black
magazine, but to respond is not fair? why? you know, its
funny. when I first saw Wesley with the Asian women a while back, I DID NOT
make any assumptions that he was trophy hunting. its until he opened his big
fat mouth that I have problems

[David C. Waters]

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: will you PLEASE pay attention. this subject is about what Wesley

: Snipes said about Black women. He claimed it was about the behavior of
: black women. I said that had nothing to do with behavoir but with the
: same old racial caste systems of beauty among other things. you posted
: a story that would agree with Snipes contention, then in a later note
: you say all women behave

[stealth text snipped]

First of all, could you explain what part of my story agrees with Snipes'
(so-called) contentions? My story said absoulutely NOTHING about the
character's preference for an Asian woman because no such preference
existed in the story. The character merely found the Asian woman easier
to approach due to defined circumstances. The story was meant to ask,
given those particular circumstances, what (if anything) did the
character do wrong.

If you're upset about some perceived racial caste system of beauty, among
other things, then take it up with those who actually subscribe to such
nonsense.

However, how do *YOU* know when or if someone dates a person because they
prefer lighter skin, etc., anyway? Do you naturally assume that this is
the case all of the time, most of the time, half of the time, or some of
the time?

--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/_/ David C. Waters, Jr. _/_/ Integrated Business Solutions _/_/

[ronald h. davis]

Gabrielle Theresa Daniels wrote:
>
> I've been dogged more times than I can count by brothers who are too
> stuck up to simply say good morning, hello, excuse me or any other
> courteous greeting or acknowledgement.
>

i'm not sure whether you're still on that thing where you believed that
practically every black guy you met was out to hit on you, but if the
guys are *not* saying anything to you then it sounds as though they are
leaving you alone. so i don't get how that equates to being "dogged"
by these guys. i suppose i'm just unclear on the meaning of the term...

from my perspective, when i don't talk to women, my thinking about it is
that i *don't* want to "dog" them (as i understand the term). so when
i don't say anything, my thinking about it is that i'm just leaving
them alone. i don't consider myself as being stuck up about it at all.
all a person has to do is take one look at me and see that i've got no
basis for being stuck up when it comes to female attractiveness (which
is next to none in my case).

[Quasidemon]

>Quasidemon saids:> A couple of years ago I knew this

>>Nigerian girl who was the leader of a group that I was apart of.
>>Granted, she was beautiful, but according to you she would
>>not have been. She was dark skinned, smooth and unblemished,
>>and had very African features.
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>shelleyc: according to me? what are you talking about. in my note
> I was discussing not my standards of beauty, but the standards
>that is imprinted by this modern society and that still affects so
>many lives. Dont you understand the difference? I was discussing the racial
>caste system that still exists.

My point is that she was not modern society's standard of beauty.
But, to me, at the time, she was the only one I was interested in. So,
obviously, there are times, probably many times, in which modern
society's standard have no hold.

>Although she was very driven,
>>she was very approachable and would give you her full
>>attention whenever you'd speak to her. (Hint: very attractive
>>traits in a woman) Yes, I was somewhat intimidated by her
>>presence, not because of her color or any of that, but because
>>I didn't want to say the wrong thing or do something that in the
>>slightest would be counted against me. It's always puzzled me
>>why we get that anxious around people we like. Anyway,
>>some time after we'd worked together, I was to have things
>>come crashing down over an innocent incident.
>>
>>One day I was standing at the corner of a road intersection
>>on our college campus talking with a long-time white female
>>friend of mine. We were joking and laughing about
>>something (It was about our goofy math professor who would
>>drool during class and lean on the chalkboard getting
>>chalk dust all over his suit.) when Aya, the Nigerian girl, walks by.

>>(Slow motion on)
>>I remember turning my head to look at her while I was still
>>laughing and being a little but pleasantly surprise. My friend
>>was still talking and carrying on. I said, "Hey!" Aya briefly
>>looked up at me. Despite the traffic, I know she heard me.
>>The blank expression on her face didn't change. But she
>>walked right in between my friend and I not saying a word.
>>I felt a cold chill as she passed by, and my mood changed
>>instantly to something I can barely describe as hurt. My friend
>>almost instantly responded as my attention was drawn away and
>>my state had changed. For some reason, I felt like I had done
>>something wrong, like I wasn't supposed to be speaking to
>>this white female friend that I had known for so long. My
>>friend sensed it also, and her reaction and afterthoughts were
>>typical of cutthroat female behavior. But, I was left with the
>>fact that my relationship with Aya had somehow changed
>>forever because of this brief but innocent incident.
>>

>>She would never know that I liked her because in her

>>mind I was one of those brotha's who had strayed. Sad.
>>
>>
>>
>>

>>-John Clarke
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>oookay...... what point are you trying to make? she misunderstood and you
>didnt know how to talk to her?

What? No, I think she thought she perfectly understood what she
was looking at and then gave me the axe. Yes, I didn't talk to
her, but hasn't there ever been a person you liked but
were a little afraid to talk too? And don't lie. Yes, I probably
paid the price for not moving on my crush, but I'm not trying
to rationalize why things never happened.

>I hope you are not
>once again saying she is the one driving you to date non racially

>COME ON, DUDE.

Where did you get this? See this is my point, just because Wesley
or I have had a bad experience and choose to voice it now we
are DRIVEN away. How in the hell can we condemn all Black
women from the actions of some?

>IF you were really interested, and it was that important to
>you, what is to keep you from pulling yourself from your friend and going to

>talk to her? what stopped you? its obvious it wasnt that important to you.

Really. Let's see. I liked her. I didn't want to say something stupid. I
was caught, in what I thought, was an embarassing situation. And, I didn't
know how she felt. And, I didn't want to be too obvious about my feelings,
especially under these circumstances, by running after her. Besides, it
would have been rude. I was talking to my friend.

>You

>chose to stay there with your friend, which was your perogative. but quit
>crying about
>how uncomfortable and guilty you felt. WHY? you made a

>choice not to pursue her. she didnt tell you to not talk to her,

>did she?most of her rejection is in your head.

>now, back to what I was talking about.

Whatever.

>Yes, it is more than
>looks, color status also is a factor. I am not excluding other
>factors in saying what a wonderdul female would be, I am just
>saying that color is still a big factor in choosing a mate.

Well, quit your crying and go work on all of those other factors.

-John Clarke

[DarkStar]

In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.971210...@ego.psych.mcgill.ca>,
Rich Thompson <tho...@ego.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:

...

>I'm not sure that that was the main thing that people are objecting as far
>as taht interview goes.
>Did you read the piece, David?

I read it, and I don't quite understand the outrage. Now, from my man point
of view, I didn't think he was saying *ALL* or *MOST* Black women, but
some. Now, because I am a man, I've just watched the fire works.

>It's not so much that he's dating an Asian woman, but *why* he's doing so.

I'll read it again. Maybe I missed something.

--
Welcome to my virtual reality!
dark...@charm.net Edwin Brown
http://www.tnp.com/~darkstar

[Brooks Allen]

David C. Waters wrote:
>
> Let me ask this...of what concern is it to an AfAm woman to see an AfAm
> man with a non-AfAm woman? Likewise, of what concern is it to an AfAm
> man to see an AfAm woman with a non-AfAm man?
>

I care because I care about the furture of our community. Black women
genuinely have cause for concern as they are getting the short end of
the stick socially.

> Healthy people value what's real to them and, unless they've got serious
> problems dealing with reality, what's real is what they're most familiar
> with on a day-to-day basis. So, at the very least, the next time you see
> an "interracial" couple ask yourself whether it's a "day-to-day" variety
> of relationship or of the Simpson-Connerly (trophy) mentality.

> --

Healthy people? Is our community healthy? I don't think that its
realistic for many brothers to adopt the Simpson-Connerly mentality,
minimize their contact with black women, and you to not expect black
women to be concerned.

David,

It's interesting how you simplify what is a complex issue for many black
women. Do you read Essence? Do you have a young black daughter or
sister? Is it not harder for a young professional sister to find a
young professional brother than the inverse? I'm 29, professional, have
a wonderful career and have always been in the position to pick and
choose whether I would date the sister who is an accountant, doctor,
engineer, etc.

I also have the option to date others but have never felt the need
because I love black women too much. In Louisiana there are too many
beautiful black women for me to go shopping elsewhere for
companionship.

I have a 27 year old professional sister who lives in Las Vegas. When I
go to visit her, about three times a year, we play the
count-the-black-couples-game when in Vegas. We are shocked to find
black couples. The overwhelming majority of the couples comprise black
men with (pick one) white, asain, latin women.

My sister has tremendous self esteem but still internalizes why many
black men limit their social interaction with black women in Vegas.
It's self righteous and clueless of black men to say that sisters
shouldn't be concerned. When she started dating a guy from Peru, I was
concerned for a moment until I realized that she was happy. I agree
with you that each case should be examined individually. However, I have
witnessed far too many brothers who will subscribe to the white is right
syndrome when it comes to dating. And yes they do do this at our sisters
expense. That is the opportunity costs.

Kirt

[Quasidemon]

>I want to point out again that this society and our subculture insists
>that women, and black women, be responsive to men to the point of being
>ready at all times. This kind of expectation is fraught with billion
>dollar misunderstandings, like the above scenario, and what has fed this
>post.

I'm open to the possibility that I may have been hyper-sensitive
in the situation I described, i.e. feeling that I'd been banished to the
depths of Hell. I also don't think that women have to be responsive
to men at all times, but we have to be ready to accept the fact that
not being responsive can leave some hurt feelings.

>I repeat, not all sisters are head wagging zeroes wanting to dig their
>fingers in anyone's craw. And not all brothers are trying not to look
>hard in your direction when he's looking at the
>white/Asian/Chicana/Latina women...he may not even be looking thataway.
>All I am saying is, making sisters the ones responsible for this state
>of affairs is just another blame game widening the gap between black men
>and women. People oughta be checking the messenger's game before they
>start buying it at the toy store.

I want no absolute generalizations to be drawn from my story. We
have been too quick to damn each other when we should be giving each
other the benefit of the doubt.

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> "Quand na pas maman, tete gran'maman."
> (LOUISIANA Creole)
> -When one has no mother, one must be suckled by one's grandmother.-
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Gabrielle Theresa

-John Clarke

[SVCORBIN]

D Waters said:
>Since this is about Wesley Snipes dissin' the sistas, let's stick with
>the example of an AfAm male dating an Asian (or any other non-AfAm)
>female...
>
>Of what interest is it to AfAm females whether Wesley Snipes (or any

>other AfAm man) dates an Asian female? A "white" female? A Latino
>female? Are AfAm men required to seek the approval of AfAm women
>before they date non-AfAm women?

>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: very slick D Waters, you said you want to talk about
to Wesley S dissing AA women, then you go in another direction.
Please stay on track. If we talk about Wesley's dissing claims,
then lets get back to the claims he made about black women.

However, if you want to talk about what I think you want to talk about, which
is the "I have a right to date who I please" matra that
always dominate this kind of issue, then lets get into it.
1.First off, I do not believe if the dating interracial dating ratios
were fairly equal, and there were not white supremacy there would be a
controversy. this is important, even though the interracists like to ignore
this part. this is always glossed over
because its more fun for everyone involved to paint black women as irrational,
unreasonable harpies. what interest do black women have in the lop sided
dating ratios? plenty, since it will decide to some extent whether some of them
will have families of their own. In England, close to 40% of black males have
white mates, to my understanding. this obviously affects the black women in
England
and for the more ominous message. you know, to this day, there
are a very large number of whites and no small degree of black
folks that believe whites are pretty and black are ugly in various
degrees, white is feminine and black is masculine. folks like you
what to claim kind of thinking is rare and doesnt exist in
"healthy" individuals, nonsense. very toxic, destructive, or
even simply unpleasant attitudes, paradigms of thinking can exist
throught a society, even with so called "healthy" individuals.
if nearly everyone has it, its called normal. OJ and Connerly may
or may not be extremely, they are certainly more open about their feelings
towards whites. the black community still has the white man's ice is colder
syndrome, we are talking about a community that spends 95% of its income
outside of its own community,. In this society, it is "normal" to naturally
gravitate to
white things,-especially when we have access. white neighboors,
white schools, white stores, white businessses. Oj and connerly
are not as far away from you as you may like to think. choosing a
women or man because of their race is not the rare occurrace
you try to make it. and its not so much being shallow, either.
there is nothing shallow about the issue of race, it cuts right
to the bone, to close for folks to mention it. people will
admit to shallow prefences, 'I like bald men" etc, but
not very many black people would even admit to themselves
why they make the choice involving race.
dont get me wrong, I think you have a right to choose on for
any reason you want, or none at all.
Now for your question on whether black men have
to get permission for black women to date outside their race.
obviously, No. whew! arent you being defensive! we all know perfectly well
that not only do they not need permission, but many most likely enjoy the
stares and snipes. I reconnize its important for black folks, especially black
men the freedom to date out of their race. it seems in light of the murderous
past, of particular importance to them. I do not like, however, the remarks by
too many men that seem to imply black women are crimping your lifestyles in any
particular way... this is nonsense.
Lookin at the unmistakable, but largely unspoken message
that the lopsided dating ratios are giving to society is this.
"white is best".

[Marci Wright]

Ronald H. Davis wrote:

>Marci Wright wrote:
>> I have three questions for John Clarke: Did you ever ask her why she
>> didn't speak that day? Did you ever ask her how she felt about your
>> non-Afram friendships? Did you ever ask her whether she viewed you
>> differently after that incident?

>wait a minute. let's assume that clarke was right in his assumptions
>for the moment. do you *really* expect her to come right out and say
>so?
>go ahead and say "yes" even though we all know that the real answer
>is "no". sure, everybody likes to talk about how much they like
>"honesty" and all, but in this and so many other things rhetoric and
>reality are often two different things.

Well, I will say yes. My experience with university people is that if they
are bold enought to join a special interest group (such as any ethnic,
religious, or political affiliation) they are pretty outspoken. And if
said person is the *leader* of a group, so much the more. By joining an
initiative in college, you are basically defining how you want to be
viewed, and subsequently marginalized/categorized by the larger community.
Therefore, IMO, it's an all or none effect , gung-ho to the end or not a
part of anything at all.

I bet she would have said something; if not directly to him, then via a
snide comment about sellouts, etc.. during a meeting. But she didn't do
that.

[Philip Kasiecki]

In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.971210...@ego.psych.mcgill.ca>,
Rich Thompson (tho...@ego.psych.mcgill.ca) wrote:
: But here's my question: why, just because you see someone talking with a

: member of the opposite sex in a friendly manner, do you assume that
: there's something romantic going on? That's what bothers me about John's
: story.

My feeling is that it's probably an instinct we have. I used to do
it all the time, until time and again I was wrong with my assumptions.
I learned, from the embarassment of finding out that I was wrong, not to
do it. So now if I see a male and female being friendly, I don't assume
anything. I can think of two occasions in which I've been involved in
such a story, one of them being quite funny.
For one, there is a young woman who works at the NU bookstore with
me. We work in adjacent departments, so we see each other a great deal
every day that we're both working. We also frequently go to lunch/
dinner (depending on how late we're working on a particular day)
together, and with one or two others (it's not always just the two of
us). Not surprisingly, several co-workers think we go out, but that's
not the case at all.
The best story was back in my senior year of high school. Back
then, I was interested in my sister's best friend at the time, and
frequently talked with her, as well as my sister, during breaks and
lunch period. One day, my sister told me that after I left, another
friend of hers asked her, "How long have you known your boyfriend?" My
sister gave the best answer she could give- "My whole life, since he's
brother!" She told me that they got a good laugh out of that one...

Phil "even so, I still measure potential mates up to her" Kasiecki

--
Philip T. Kasiecki
Electrical and Computer Engineering
Northeastern University Class of 1999

1997-98 College Basketball Preview now online!
http://lynx.dac.neu.edu/home/httpd/p/pkasieck/

"Life is not important except in the impact it has on others' lives."
-Jackie Robinson

[Marci Wright]

Rich Thompson wrote:

>But the "problem with interracial dating" isn't even the main issue with
>John's story (IMHO). I don't have any problem with people who have
>problems with interracial dating. Heck, even my girlfriend has problems
>with interracial dating.

Then I assume she's not black. :-)

>But here's my question: why, just because you see someone talking with a
>member of the opposite sex in a friendly manner, do you assume that
>there's something romantic going on? That's what bothers me about John's
>story.

Grant it. That may be the case, and, if so, Aya needs to check herself in
the insecurity department. But that's *not* how John presented it in this
thread.

>By the way, I read the article in question. Snipes seemed to be trying to
>backpedal a lot in terms of what he was saying (implicitly) about Black
>women.

My problem with Snipes is that he seems to gravitate toward roles in which
adultery is seen as fun and all the more so when adultery breaks racial
boundaries. I think his characters disrespect women in general.

But, to be fair, I liked David Water's scenario, and could see how such
events could transpire (vice versa, too). For example, since I've been
participating in this NG, I've met a few white men in Birmingham whom,
because of their respectful behavior, I'd be willing to date. Go
figure...

Marci "who thinks old dogs can learn new tricks" Wright

[Quasidemon]

Question: Now, if Wesley stepped to you would you shoot him down?

-John Clarke

[Quasidemon]

>Quasidemon wrote:
>>
>> I don't know. (Shields on) But, women can be quite vicious and
>> underhanded when it comes to the love game. Talk about mind
>> games; they are masters. I tend to believe that men are a little
>> more honorable and even though we do act like dogs, we are
>> really very simple.
>>
>
>...and i'm sure that a lot of women think that women are more
>honorable. it's a convenient rationalization, and the one that
>you've made here isn't plausible at all.

Fair enough. I'm not a woman:) I guess I wouldn't know
exactly what they go through. Sorry, Marci:)

>--
> __ ______ __ / __/ |
>_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/ .

-John Clarke

[David C. Waters]

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: If we talk about Wesley's dissing claims, then lets get back to the

: claims he made about black women.

Look, if Wesley Snipes makes claims about "black" women then hold Wesley
Snipes accountable and no one else. If I make such a claim then hold me
accountable but no one else. And even if I make some broad
generalization (no pun intended), it would only be limited to my
experience as one man and it wouldn't really apply to you unless you were
one of the specific women in my sample.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: However, if you want to talk about what I think you want to talk about,

: which is the "I have a right to date who I please" matra that
: always dominate this kind of issue, then lets get into it.

First off, I *do* have a right to date whom I please (and who pleases me)
and that's the end of the discussion. But in case you're not clear on
where *I* stand, *I* don't have a pre-defined (or other) preference for
"white" women. Can I describe what my "type" is? To be perfectly
honest, no! Why not? Because I assess each woman one at a time on her
own merits! Are "white" women excluded? Not necessarily, but I most
certainly don't go out of my way to find 'em!

Is there anything else that I care to volunteer? Well, the only thing
that I'll volunteer in this forum would be superficial preferences like
shapely legs and natural breasts but even those are useless to me without
stimulating, intelligent conversation from a cosmological perspective.

Natural breasts are stipulated only because I absolutely despise the idea
of artificial implants...mainly because of the mentality of anyone who
lacks confidence in their natural selves and the inablity to expand their
minds instead of their cup size.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: 1.First off, I do not believe if the dating interracial dating ratios
: were fairly equal,

I find this humorous because it almost sounds like you see dating as a
candidate for Affirmative Action principles.

Look, unless you practice polygamy, one date/spouse is all you get at one
particular time. Of what interest are IR dating ratios to you if all you
need is ONE MAN? Were you appointed by a coalition of "black" women to
herd up all of the stray "black" men? I don't think so!

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: and there were not white supremacy there would be a controversy. this

: is important, even though the interracists like to ignore this part.
: this is always glossed over because its more fun for everyone involved
: to paint black women as irrational, unreasonable harpies.

"Interracists", what a curious term...sort of oxymoronic like Ward
Connerly and OJ Simpson. I like it! :-)

Anyway, what you're basically saying is that if "white" males were as
open minded as the "white" females who date "black" men then "black"
women would have enough men to go around, right? I can just hear
somebody like Fred Cherry answering: "No, because the 'white' males would
*also* date 'black' men". :-/

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: what interest do black women have in the lop sided

: dating ratios? plenty, since it will decide to some extent whether some
: of them will have families of their own.

Okay, fair enough, perhaps you *are* the appointed "Pied Piper" of stray
"black" men. And let's say that you could summon these stray "black" men
away from "non-black" women...if all these men truly believe in the
concept of "white good, black bad" then you'll probably run into the old
"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" problem.

That was intentionally flippant just to illustrate the absurdity of the
idea.

Look, in this country (USA) dating is a personal choice issue that should
not be subject to group politics, plain and simple. If I'm not happy
with the choices available to me then I keep moving along until I find a
choice that suits me. If I find that I'm constantly rejected by a number
of women for the same reason, then I have to decide whether that reason
is one that's worth changing. If I don't think that it's worth changing
then I simply keep moving along. Everyone is subject to the same
procedure!

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: In England, close to 40% of black males have white mates, to my
: understanding.

Yup, you're it, 'cause only the chosen one would have these statistics! :-)

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: this obviously affects the black women in England

And apparently some of the "white" men unless there's a huge surplus of
"white" women.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: and for the more ominous message. you know, to this day, there

: are a very large number of whites and no small degree of black
: folks that believe whites are pretty and black are ugly in various
: degrees, white is feminine and black is masculine. folks like you
: what to claim kind of thinking is rare and doesnt exist in
: "healthy" individuals, nonsense. very toxic, destructive, or
: even simply unpleasant attitudes, paradigms of thinking can exist
: throught a society, even with so called "healthy" individuals.

Look, I'm an African American male. I grew up in Compton, California
from 1960-1972 until moving to neighboring Lynwood through high school.
I'm subject to a variety of stereotypes held by all of the people you
mentioned. If I didn't believe in myself more than what they believe of
me then I probably wouldn't have defied so many of those stereotypes!

What's the solution? Defy the negative stereotypes! Perhaps not
everyone will notice or even appreciate your efforts, but it only takes a
handful of good enough people to make it all worthwhile anyway.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
[snipped and relocated]
: I do not like, however, the remarks by too many men that seem to imply

: black women are crimping your lifestyles in any particular way... this
: is nonsense. Lookin at the unmistakable, but largely unspoken message
: that the lopsided dating ratios are giving to society is this.
: "white is best".

Then why do some "white" women pick "black" men? Why do some Asian women
pick "black" men? It's just as easy for you to assume that they do
because they're "tramps", etc., as it is for "black" men to claim that
"black" women are "bitter", "abrasive", "obnoxious" or whatever the
(so-called) typical claims are against "black" women.

The bottom line on this dating crap is that there's no way that you're
ever going to convince me that every AfAm male in your neighborhood,
city, county, and state is with a "non-black" woman. And I'll go out on
a limb and state for a fact that the remaining men aren't all passing
over "black" women for the next available "white" or Asian girl. So, are
you going to wait for one to approach you or are you going to approach
them?

/*--- [ The rest of this has nothing to do with IR dating. ] ---*/

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: the black community still has the white man's ice is colder

: syndrome, we are talking about a community that spends 95% of its
: income outside of its own community,. In this society, it is "normal" to
: naturally gravitate to white things,-especially when we have access.
: white neighboors, white schools, white stores, white businessses.

I founded Multimedia Business Answers and most of my initial efforts were
directed at the AfAm community. What did I learn? First of all, I was
introducing a technology years before anyone was ready to appreciate it.
But concerning the AfAm community, I learned that people are much more
concerned about their personal survival than anything else.

Not so many people think the "white" man is some horrible "devil" when
it's "black" criminals whom they're concerned with every hour of the
day. The hard working AfAm family sees more attention and support being
offered to former drug addicts, fallen celebrities, and (so-called)
political leaders than those of us who never strayed from the righteous
path in the first place (and I don't mean some silly religious path).

Frankly, I think that any effort to create "black" community awareness is
a waste of time as long as it doesn't put support for hard-working,
law-abiding, self-motivated "black" people above and beyond support for
those who abused the opportunities presented to them.

[ronald h. davis]

Brooks Allen wrote in response to David C. Waters:

>
> It's interesting how you simplify what is a complex issue for many black
> women. Do you read Essence? Do you have a young black daughter or
> sister? Is it not harder for a young professional sister to find a
> young professional brother than the inverse? I'm 29, professional, have
> a wonderful career and have always been in the position to pick and
> choose whether I would date the sister who is an accountant, doctor,
> engineer, etc.
>
> I also have the option to date others but have never felt the need
> because I love black women too much. In Louisiana there are too many
> beautiful black women for me to go shopping elsewhere for
> companionship.
>

i'm glad that you're god's gift to black women. not all of us are,
however, and when you're not, this stuff doesn't look so romantic.
and to a non-romantic such as myself, black women possess no intrinsic
virtue over anyone else. black women will blow you off just like
anyone else. so tell me, are you suggesting that black men "owe"
something to black women when it comes to dating? if not, how are
they getting the "short end of the stick" when black men *don't* date
black women?

> I have a 27 year old professional sister who lives in Las Vegas. When I
> go to visit her, about three times a year, we play the
> count-the-black-couples-game when in Vegas. We are shocked to find
> black couples. The overwhelming majority of the couples comprise black
> men with (pick one) white, asain, latin women.
>
> My sister has tremendous self esteem but still internalizes why many
> black men limit their social interaction with black women in Vegas.
> It's self righteous and clueless of black men to say that sisters
> shouldn't be concerned. When she started dating a guy from Peru, I was
> concerned for a moment until I realized that she was happy. I agree
> with you that each case should be examined individually. However, I have
>

i think that you and your "professional sister" both need to be examined
because i don't care about any of this stuff that you're talking about
here. i mean, maybe you "sister" should pay more attention to her own
life instead of worrying about what other people are doing. i mean,
from
reading your post, it doesn't appear that either one of you have any
idea
what was the nature of the relationships of the people that you
observed;
you two just saw: black man/white woman = affront to black women.

so now that "sister" is dating a guy from peru, it seems as though she's
on a bit of thin ice in "internalizing" anything with regard to black
men and white women - unless she's doing it to somehow "get even" with
black men. if that's the case, i can say without ever having met her
that she's going to lose that battle. there are too many people in
the world and she is too (relatively) insignificant to hope to have
any chance of "getting even" with black men.

in your case, i suspect that you are "disciplining" yourself to stick
with black women which may be creating a quid pro quo expectation that
other black people should do the same (with respect to the opposite
sex, of course, i don't want to get into any gay stuff here). you've
got to make your own choices in this life, but not everybody is coming
from your set of circumstances, or thinking the same way.

--
__ ______ __ / __/ |
_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/ .

[David C. Waters]

: David waters:
: If you assume that other people think that

: "lighter is better" then what does that say about what *you* think?>

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: shelleyc: what do you mean resolve in their own minds? this is not

: JUST about what people are doing in their heads, it has been and is
: showing up in our culture/community.

It's EXACTLY what people are doing in their own heads. If you or anyone
else sees someone with a person whom you somehow perceive as "not dark
enough" for YOUR TASTES then it's YOUR PROBLEM not theirs.
^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^
In other words, the problem is YOUR PERCEPTION that only people of
similar skin tones belong together. Get it? Who are you to decide
whether or not one person should be with another solely on the basis of
skin tones? Should someone else decide whom you should date based on
their concept of what skin tones agree with them?

But perceiving that there's a problem just by observing contrasting skin
tones would just be your first mistake. The next mistake would be making
the assumption that the darker skinned person cherishes lighter skin more
than anything other aspect of that person.

But this logic fails when you consider that the lighter skinned person
has chosen to be with a darker skinned person. In other words, if this
"lighter is better" menality is so strong then darker would never date
lighter because lighter would only seek the same or even lighter. Get it?

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: back in the 30's and the cotton club, only high yellas need apply. its
: even happening now... there has been controversy in rap videos [...]

What went on in the Cotton Club before and rap videos today is a business
(hiring) decision and it's just as (or more) ignorant than the garden
variety of "racial" discrimination.

Frankly, I don't give a damn what type of bimbi appear in rap videos or
any other music videos. That's fashion, not culture. And before you
tell me that "rap" and "hip hop" are African American culture, why don't
you first tell me what role education plays in African American culture?
In other words, when are we going to make education a more important part
of African American Culture than fashions like "rap" and "hip hop"?

What we're discussing here should be part of the education that I'm
talking about. The sad part about this is that you're complaining about
messages in "rap videos" while I'd have to ask why wasn't the "correct"
message taught at home or in the school in the first place.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: culture affects the individual, that has the be addressed, its not just
: about what goes on in our heads. and what does it say about me? its

: saids I have read up on what I am talking about.

I'm more impressed by what/how people think than what or whether they
read.

Now if you want to talk about the cultural aspect of this "lighter is
better" mentality then first understand that dating is not a business
(hiring) decision, it's a mutually personal decision between two people
(and only those two people).

But you seem to feel strongly that there's a de facto preference for
lighter skin even among African Americans that transcends dating to
business hiring decisions. I'm aware that certain AfAms hold such silly
beliefs but it wasn't so widespread in the part of Compton that I grew up
in to consider it a significant problem. In fact, I recall that it was
strange when someone seemed to hold such a viewpoint.

I'd say that the darkest and the lightest kids tended to be teased
equally or based on who was more extreme. I also remember how
interesting it was in high school that "white" students pretty much
ostracized a few extemely pale (but not albino) "white" kids. Those kids
were less included than the darkest among us, including three brothas on
the football team known affectionately as ("11:59:58", "11:59:59", and
"Midnight-straight-up"). Although we teased our extremes but we didn't
exclude them.

Actually, it's been my understanding that this whole "complexion complex"
is strongest in Louisiana (the whole Creole thing) and other Southern
states. Among most folks I know, that sort of thinking is considered
"backward". Therefore, it surprised me this year to hear two different
AfAms follow this thinking...but both were raised in the South.

Anyway, the whole behaviour is generically known as Colonial Mentality.
It exists in South America (especially Brazil) and even in Southeast Asia
(including the Philippines). Like I said, your mistake is presuming that
everyone subscribes to it.

[David C. Waters]

Brooks Allen (kben...@concentric.net) wrote:
: I care because I care about the furture of our community. Black women
: genuinely have cause for concern as they are getting the short end of
: the stick socially.

Y'know, if you're talkin' about the old "all the good 'black' men get
'white' women" argument then I have to ask what makes "white" women so
easy to get?

[I should hear the answer to *that* through my window!] :-)

Seriously though, the correct answer isn't that all "white" women are
tramps, etc. Nor is the correct answer that all AfAm men prefer "white"
women.

If the perception is so widespread then it's obviously a problem with
basic communications between AfAm men and AfAm women. I think that the
first part of the problem is that this subject never gets past the stage
of each side blaming the other to see the core issues.

Previously, David Waters wrote:
: > Healthy people value what's real to them and, unless they've got serious

: > problems dealing with reality, what's real is what they're most familiar
: > with on a day-to-day basis. So, at the very least, the next time you see
: > an "interracial" couple ask yourself whether it's a "day-to-day" variety
: > of relationship or of the Simpson-Connerly (trophy) mentality.

Brooks Allen (kben...@concentric.net) wrote:
: Healthy people? Is our community healthy? I don't think that its

: realistic for many brothers to adopt the Simpson-Connerly mentality,
: minimize their contact with black women, and you to not expect black
: women to be concerned.

First of all, communities improve themselves one person at a time. So
when you ask "Is our community healthy?", no community is entirely
healthy or unhealthy. Healthiness, as subjective as it is, is only
meaningful at the individual level.

The Simpson-Connerly mentality is a problem that's a lot deeper than a
perceived preference for "white" women. Some people call it self-hating
and a whole host of other things. I don't know what the best term should
be but I could only guess that somehow their reality believes in the
concept of a priviledged ("white") society and that they have become
accepted as part of that priviledged ("white") society.

In each of *their* cases it's important for them to believe that they're
accepted because they have something that other AfAms lack...something
that makes them "special". I don't think that there's anything healthy
about being deluded in that manner. And that's not to say that a strong
sense of self-confidence has to be delusional...of course if it is then
I'd be too deluded to know! :-)

Brooks Allen (kben...@concentric.net) wrote:
: Is it not harder for a young professional sister to find a young

: professional brother than the inverse? I'm 29, professional, have
: a wonderful career and have always been in the position to pick and
: choose whether I would date the sister who is an accountant, doctor,
: engineer, etc.

It's late but I'm a little confused about what you're saying here. If
you're able to pick them, then what stops them from picking you? That's
really the point of my story - mutual approaches beat one-sided
approaches every time!

Brooks Allen (kben...@concentric.net) wrote:
: My sister has tremendous self esteem but still internalizes why many

: black men limit their social interaction with black women in Vegas.
: It's self righteous and clueless of black men to say that sisters
: shouldn't be concerned.

The real question is where did the communication breakdown between AfAm
men and AfAm women? At what age? Early teens? High school? College?
More importantly, what's the quality of that communication? What are the
limits of that communication?

[Quasidemon]

>D Waters said:
>>Since this is about Wesley Snipes dissin' the sistas, let's stick with
>>the example of an AfAm male dating an Asian (or any other non-AfAm)
>>female...
>>
>>Of what interest is it to AfAm females whether Wesley Snipes (or any
>>other AfAm man) dates an Asian female? A "white" female? A Latino
>>female? Are AfAm men required to seek the approval of AfAm women
>>before they date non-AfAm women?
>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>shelleyc: very slick D Waters, you said you want to talk about
>to Wesley S dissing AA women, then you go in another direction.

>Please stay on track. If we talk about Wesley's dissing claims,

>then lets get back to the claims he made about black women.

For the record, WESLEY IS NOT DISSIN' ALL BLACK WOMEN!!!

>However, if you want to talk about what I think you want to talk about, which
>is the "I have a right to date who I please" matra that
> always dominate this kind of issue, then lets get into it.

>1.First off, I do not believe if the dating interracial dating ratios

>were fairly equal, and there were not white supremacy there would be a

>controversy. this is important, even though the interracists like to ignore
>this part. this is always glossed over
>because its more fun for everyone involved to paint black women as
>irrational,
>unreasonable harpies.

Ratios equal to what? And, no one is calling Black women harpies.

> what interest do black women have in the lop sided
>dating ratios? plenty, since it will decide to some extent whether some of
>them

>will have families of their own. In England, close to 40% of black males
>have
>white mates, to my understanding. this obviously affects the black women in
>England

>and for the more ominous message.

IF this is true, I think that you need to go speak to some Black Englishmen.

>you know, to this day, there
>are a very large number of whites and no small degree of black
>folks that believe whites are pretty and black are ugly in various
>degrees, white is feminine and black is masculine.

Black is masculine; that's true. Just kidding. Proceed.

>folks like you
>what to claim kind of thinking is rare and doesnt exist in
>"healthy" individuals, nonsense. very toxic, destructive, or
>even simply unpleasant attitudes, paradigms of thinking can exist
>throught a society, even with so called "healthy" individuals.

Can exist, but does it? Or does it in a large degree? I think that's
the point Mr. Waters was trying to make.

>if nearly everyone has it, its called normal. OJ and Connerly may
>or may not be extremely, they are certainly more open about their feelings

>towards whites. the black community still has the white man's ice is colder

>syndrome, we are talking about a community that spends 95% of its income
>outside of its own community,.

So if I sold you ice would you think it was warmer than white man's ice?
No, but seriously, our problem of spending money outside the
community has alot to do with the fact that we haven't set up enough
businesses to capture our own money. I think Black folks would by
Black if we just set the stores up.

>In this society, it is "normal" to naturally
>gravitate to
>white things,-especially when we have access. white neighboors,
>white schools, white stores, white businessses.

It's difficult to test this when we don't have a basis for comparison, since
most stores are white-owned. I also suspect that some of the "problems"
as you see it in the dating game come down to availablility. As Blacks
move into the higher eschelons of society, our numbers thin out.

>Oj and connerly
>are not as far away from you as you may like to think. choosing a
>women or man because of their race is not the rare occurrace
>you try to make it. and its not so much being shallow, either.
>there is nothing shallow about the issue of race, it cuts right
>to the bone, to close for folks to mention it.

For a tiny minority, this may be the case. But, I think that on a
personal level, people naturally like others that make them feel
good. This ability is trans-racial.

>people will
>admit to shallow prefences, 'I like bald men" etc, but
>not very many black people would even admit to themselves
>why they make the choice involving race.

Some people date on preference because they think that they'll
get some set of good feelings from possessing a person with some
set of traits. This belief can either be based on theory or
experience. Yes, race is no different. But, I believe that today
people are learning to evaluate their preferences and say
to themselves, "Does this really mean that I'll get that?"

>dont get me wrong, I think you have a right to choose on for
>any reason you want, or none at all.
> Now for your question on whether black men have
>to get permission for black women to date outside their race.
>obviously, No. whew! arent you being defensive!

Well, sometimes when you get a certain reaction from a person
it can sure make it feel like you need their permission for their
approval.

>we all know perfectly well
>that not only do they not need permission, but many most likely enjoy the
>stares and snipes. I reconnize its important for black folks, especially
>black
>men the freedom to date out of their race.

Important? Oh please, don't even try that.

>it seems in light of the murderous

>past, of particular importance to them. I do not like, however, the remarks

>by
>too many men that seem to imply black women are crimping your lifestyles in
>any
>particular way... this is nonsense.

Those men are boobs. Intellectually undeveloped. Have
patience with them.

>Lookin at the unmistakable, but largely unspoken message
>that the lopsided dating ratios are giving to society is this.
>"white is best".

But, Black is beautiful:)

-John Clarke

[Quasidemon]

>I bet she would have said something; if not directly to him, then via a
>snide comment about sellouts, etc.. during a meeting. But she didn't do
>that.

Eh, the story isn't over. In a meeting not immediately following the
incident, she did talk about some brotha's having Jungle Fever.
Of course, I thought that it MAY have been a snide reference towards
me. There was also no way I was going to confront this at least here.
Our group had extremely radical and out-spoken elements in it and
I didn't want to loose credability by engaging anyone in some kind
of cold-war, so I let it pass. Although I could be considered the
leader of the more moderate side of the group, I felt that I was on
shaky ground because most of my friends on campus weren't Black.
Actually, most were either asian, middle eastern, or white considering
that I was in Electrical Engineering and there was only four Blacks
in the program while I was there (one grad student, one Ethiopian,
another AfricanAmerican who eventually dropped out, and me). In
any case, I was in a precarious position.

>Marci Wright

-John Clarke

[Brooks Allen]

ronald h. davis wrote:

> i'm glad that you're god's gift to black women. not all of us are,
> however, and when you're not, this stuff doesn't look so romantic.
> and to a non-romantic such as myself, black women possess no intrinsic
> virtue over anyone else. black women will blow you off just like
> anyone else.

That's too bad. I guess I understand your bitterness. While you feel
that sisters can blow you off just like anyone else, I tend to think
that no woman can love me like a black woman. You speask form your
experiences and I speak from mine. Such is life.

so tell me, are you suggesting that black men "owe"
> something to black women when it comes to dating? if not, how are
> they getting the "short end of the stick" when black men *don't* date
> black women?
>

Yes we owe it to our sisters to be available to love them, date them,
support them, marry them, father their children, and rear our families.
Since I answered in the affirmative I can't answer the if not part.

>
>
> i think that you and your "professional sister" both need to be examined
> because i don't care about any of this stuff that you're talking about
> here. i mean, maybe you "sister" should pay more attention to her own
> life instead of worrying about what other people are doing. i mean,
> from
> reading your post, it doesn't appear that either one of you have any
> idea
> what was the nature of the relationships of the people that you
> observed;
> you two just saw: black man/white woman = affront to black women.
>

Wrong! You seem to have selective memory. I saw numerous black men
with white women and a miniscule number of black men with sisters. And
the few couples that were all black were mostly from out of town. There
is a reason for everything under the sun. I guess you feel all of these
brothers were just accidentilly with non-sisters.

there are too many people in
> the world and she is too (relatively) insignificant to hope to have
> any chance of "getting even" with black men.
>

You seem clueless. Her dating a Peruvian had little to do with
retribution. It had everything to do with her resigning herself to the
fact that most brothers date others in Vegas and that that was no reason
for her to not date anyone herself.

> in your case, i suspect that you are "disciplining" yourself to stick
> with black women which may be creating a quid pro quo expectation that
> other black people should do the same (with respect to the opposite
> sex, of course, i don't want to get into any gay stuff here). you've
> got to make your own choices in this life, but not everybody is coming
> from your set of circumstances, or thinking the same way.
>

Man you are tripping. I guess where you live, if a brother dates
sisters its because he's disciplined. Where I live its because we love
sisters. The sad thing is that I don't think that you'll be able to
swallow that reality. Maybe you need to move south.

Kirt

[Rich Thompson]

On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Marci Wright wrote:

> Rich Thompson wrote:
>
> >Heck, even my girlfriend has problems with interracial dating.
>
> Then I assume she's not black. :-)

Ah, but she *is* Black.

Hmmm....

> >member of the opposite sex in a friendly manner, do you assume that
> >there's something romantic going on? That's what bothers me about John's
> >story.
>
> Grant it. That may be the case, and, if so, Aya needs to check herself in
> the insecurity department. But that's *not* how John presented it in this
> thread.

How so? I thought the assumption was that she saw him and his white friend
talking and laughing and assumed something was going on with them. The
alternative is that she simply didn't like him talking to white women,
*period*, and I don't see how that makes things better.

> My problem with Snipes is that he seems to gravitate toward roles in which
> adultery is seen as fun and all the more so when adultery breaks racial
> boundaries. I think his characters disrespect women in general.

Actually, my main problem with him is his view of gender roles, which
seems to be pretty stereotypical and traditional. I don't know too many
women of any nationality who would deal with what he described as the
ideal scenario. Mind you, I'm no Wesley Snipes, but then...

My girlfriend can't stand him. She's more of a Denzel Washington kind of
woman.

> participating in this NG, I've met a few white men in Birmingham whom,
> because of their respectful behavior, I'd be willing to date.

Admit it, Marci. That's only because of *my* influence.

Peace,
Rich

Richard Thompson
Department of Psychology
McGill University
1205 Dr. Penfield Ave.
Montreal, Quebec
H3A 1B1
(514) 398-7425

"If what is within you is brought forth, it will save you. If what is
within you is not brought forth, it will destroy you."
-The Gnostic Gosples

[Marci Wright]

Quasidemon wrote:

>Eh, the story isn't over. In a meeting not immediately following the
>incident, she did talk about some brotha's having Jungle Fever.

Ahhh, the plot thickens...

>Of course, I thought that it MAY have been a snide reference towards
>me. There was also no way I was going to confront this at least here.
>Our group had extremely radical and out-spoken elements in it and
>I didn't want to loose credability by engaging anyone in some kind
>of cold-war, so I let it pass. Although I could be considered the
>leader of the more moderate side of the group, I felt that I was on
>shaky ground because most of my friends on campus weren't Black.

I understand. I've always considered myself pro-black or "down" or
whatever but I've sinced discovered that the black people with whom I work
think I'm more orless whitewashed b/c my closest workplace friends are
Indian and Korean. It's just how things folded out due to similar
interests, proximity, etc...

>In
>any case, I was in a precarious position.

I can see your point. Knowing this, your hunch is probably right.

All this reminds me of a powerful story in Derrick Bell's "Faces at the
Bottom of the Well". A very militant black man headed this black power
group with a black female attorney who gave up her career to work at his
side. The group would go around setting bombs and what-not to get their
political point across. While the leaders' personal relationship was
never defined, they did respect and consider each other deep allies -
until he he got hurt in a bomb attack and fell in love with his white
doctor.

Anyway, Bell created a very realistic (and emotionally painful, I might
add) ensuing discussion about love, infatuation, loyalties, and
responsibilities between the two leaders once he started dating this white
doctor. I found a hard time taking either person's side, but I eventually
sided with the black woman.

[SVCORBIN]

david waters said:
<Y'know, if you're talkin' about the old "all the good 'black' men get 'white'
women" argument then I have to ask what makes "white" women so easy to get?
[I should hear the answer to *that* through my window!] :-)
Seriously though, the correct answer isn't that all "white" women are tramps,
etc. Nor is the correct answer that all AfAm men prefer "white" women. If the
perception is so widespread then it's obviously a problem with basic
communications between AfAm men and AfAm women. I think that the first part of

the problem is that this subject never gets past the stage each side blaming

the other to see the core issues.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
and what core issues would those be? I have been trying to bring up at least
one core issue, the racial caste system, but you keep denying it has an effect.

No one said that ALL white women are tramps or that ALL black
men prefer white women, that is an old tactic of disproving a claim no one made
in the first place. this ALL or NO ONE claim is bogus. does race and white
supremact affect all our lives including our romantic preferences. and once
again you are using your favorite word "perception" as if the racism that
impacts
black social life is not reality. this is dishonest.

[SVCORBIN]

D waters said:
But perceiving that there's a problem just by observing contrasting skin
tones would just be your first mistake. The next mistake would be making
the assumption that the darker skinned person cherishes lighter skin more
than anything other aspect of that person.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now, this is a tactic used over and over again, keep focusing on
individual and single couples and say "how do you know they
choose each other because of race or skin tone?" or something silly like that.
the fact is, you dont. that why you have to look at
the larger scale. for the pattern, usually. and have knowledge of
society in general.
once when I was on a black BB I read a note from a young black male was had
just became a lawyer and joined an all black law firm
He said that of the 55 lawyers and staff, 47 were black males, and of those 40
had white wives or girlfriends.
now, I know EXACTLY what you and Ronald and John Clarke and the rest are going
to say.
"you dont know those couples individually, maybe the reason they all got
together had noting to do with race"
I am expecting you all to post those note post haste, I could use a good laugh.
and you know, If we were to asked each of these men how they happen to choose
their wife or girlfriend, each of them would most likely say race had little or
nothin to do with it, you know why? because they use the same thought paradigm
that
99% of whites use in relation to race. deny...deny ....deny. No
black person with half a brain would admit that race affected his or her choice
of partner. I wouldnt. they have NOTHING to gain
by admitted it. so in this way the racial caste system is defended, but saying
it doesnt exist,or as waters likes to put it, In a veery small number of black
males. the same way whites defend white supremacy, "it doesnt exist except
among a very small number of whites. "
now this is not to say they were not probably happy, or that they didnt have a
right to choose whites, of course they do. No one has discussed reinstating
miscengenation laws.

[SVCORBIN]

D Waters said:
<so-called) contentions? My story said absoulutely NOTHING about the
character's preference for an Asian woman because no such preference
existed in the story. The character merely found the Asian woman easier
to approach due to defined circumstances. The story was meant to ask,
given those particular circumstances, what (if anything) did the
character do wrong.
If you're upset about some perceived racial caste system of beauty, among
other things, then take it up with those who actually subscribe to such
nonsense.
However, how do *YOU* know when or if someone dates a person because they
prefer lighter skin, etc., anyway? Do you naturally assume that this is
the case all of the time, most of the time, half of the time, or some of
the time?

>From: mba...@netcom.com (David C. Waters)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyC:
Waters, waters, waters! lets cut the crap, shall we? that semifictional story
was totally self serving. You created a situation
to fit what you wanted to prove. when you create your own characters and
circumstances, what the heck do you expect? . I could have done the same
thing. in fact, I think I will

A man goes to a cabaret with his buddies to meet women. they decide to sit in
the corner at the end of the club to get a good look
at the women who come in. He is a good looking guy, not unintelligent and not
without prospects, he wants to find someone that will meet his standands. as
the club starts to cook, he is making
decisions on who he wants to get to know better. ..a number of women are too
fat for his taste, and he doesnt relate to really dark
skinned women, unless they are really sweet, but the one in purple is nice to
talk to, but maybe next time. lets see... she wears a weave, I hate that!
....too much make up, I am not even going near those claws. ....she is a sexy
dancer...but she came with someone...
he is approach by a lady on nondescript appearance, who is nice and very
interested in him, but she is really nothing special, he keeps looking around
in a way that doesnt insult her. in comes
two females that are different, they are Arab. wow, he is trying
to be nonchalante as he breaks off from the . lady who was interested in him,
he takes her number and goes off in pursuit.
"this lady was too pushy, I want somebody sweet". as he walks off
in a b line straight to these Arabic females.

now is this "wrong" of him? no. but what I am just trying to say
is that people make up reasons to accomodate their own biases
or proclivities. and let me go out on a limb and say that Men are visual, not
saying that they are not interested in anything else.
but they will go towards to appeals to them from the eye, first.
and in this culture, that appeal involves race. I just want people to
be TRUTHFUL about what they want and why they want it, and
not make up some bogus reason AT THE EXPENSE OF SOMEONE ELSE. I cannot believe
that is too much to ask.

[Rich Thompson]

(much snippage done to get to a couple of points:)

On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, David C. Waters wrote:

> If I find that I'm constantly rejected by a number
> of women for the same reason, then I have to decide whether that reason
> is one that's worth changing.

I suppose the perception of a number of Black women is that they are
constantly rejected for the same reason, but it's not one that *can* be
changed (i.e., being Black). I'm not commenting on how realistic that this
perception is, but merely pointing out that it exists.

> SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
> : In England, close to 40% of black males have white mates, to my
> : understanding.

> : this obviously affects the black women in England
>
> And apparently some of the "white" men unless there's a huge surplus of
> "white" women.

Ah, but you see, there's the rub!!!!! Being generous, and assuming that
Black people comprise 10% of the population of England, if 40% of Black
males have white mates, that leaves only (roughly) *4%* of White women
with Black mates. Part of the issue you may be overlooking is that a
discrepancy in a certain direction will have a bigger impact on a
numerical minority than on a majority.
Not saying I agree with everything or even most of what SVCORBIN is
saying, but surely you can see how the perception arises.
Black men are a much rarer commodity in England (and in America) than are
White women.

> Then why do some "white" women pick "black" men?

I suppose the question is "why do more white women pick Black men than
White men pick Black women?"
or "why do more Black men pick white women than Black women pick white
men?"
It's not an illegitimate question, although I agree it's difficult to
judge individual cases.

> The bottom line on this dating crap is that there's no way that you're
> ever going to convince me that every AfAm male in your neighborhood,
> city, county, and state is with a "non-black" woman.

This remains a good point, however...

[SVCORBIN]

oh, and by the way, I do not know, nor can I really judge Individual on how or
why they choose the people they do, unless I know something about their
personal life, ie OJ Simpson. but
I am trying to talk generally about social issue and the reason
any number of men or women use race in choosing a mate, house
job, shop, take your pic.
and the racial caste system is REAL, not just in beauty either.
months ago it was reported that light skinned black folks make more money on
average that dark skinned black folks. and dont even talk about other
countries. isnt any of this real to you. if we
all fight this individually, we will lose. we must attack this toxic
attititude as a society.

[David McDuffee]

In article <19971211010...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
SVCORBIN <svco...@aol.com> wrote:

>Lookin at the unmistakable, but largely unspoken message
>that the lopsided dating ratios are giving to society is this.
>"white is best".

Why is that the message?

If a black man with a white woman implies "white is best", then doesn't
a white woman with a black man imply "black is best"?

Does a man with a woman imply "woman is best" or "man is best"?

Is a man who only goes out with women a gender traitor?

Black women complain about black men who date white women.
Asian men complain about Asian women who date white men.
When Asian men and black women get together, everyone will have someone
and no one will ever complain again...

--
David McDuffee
mcdu...@netcom.com

[SVCORBIN]

D Waters said:
>
>It's EXACTLY what people are doing in their own heads. If you or anyone else
sees someone with a person whom you somehow perceive as "not dark enough" for
YOUR TASTES then it's YOUR PROBLEM not theirs. ^^^^^^^^^^^

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: Now this is true, racial discrimination DOES hurt the object of it
moreso than the one doing it. black folks have been hurt more from white
supremacy than whites who have gained from it. and once again. In rejecting his
first wife Margurite for white trophy wife Nicole, OJ had no "problem", because
he
attained the status he wanted most. so what you say is undeniable.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

D waters said:
>In other words, the problem is YOUR PERCEPTION that only people of similar
skin tones belong together. Get it? Who are you to decide whether or not one
person should be with another solely on the basis of skin tones? Should
someone else decide whom you should date based on their concept of what skin

tones agree with them? But perceiving that there's a problem just by observing

contrasting skin tones would just be your first mistake. The next mistake
would be making the assumption that the darker skinned person cherishes lighter
skin more than anything other aspect of that person. >
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

shelley c saids: You keep trying to claim I am trying to tell you who you
should and shouldnt date. Please do not continue to LIE, which is what you are
doing after I have REPEATEDLY explained my stance, you know perfectly well that
no one has the power to make you or anyone else be control your personal life
affairs. So why do you continue to do this?

[SVCORBIN]

Ronald said:

<i think that you and your "professional sister" both need to be examined
because i don't care about any of this stuff that you're talking about here. i
mean, maybe you "sister" should pay more attention to her own life instead of
worrying about what other people are doing. i mean, from reading your post, it
doesn't appear that either one of you have any idea what was the nature of the
relationships of the people that you observed;
you two just saw: black man/white woman = affront to black women.
>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc:If you dont care about any of this stuff, then WHY are you commenting
on it in the first place?
Lets get into this kind of comment that is repeating thrown out by folks like
you " if you live your own life, dont worry about anyone else" we all try to
live our own lives, So what? the fact is, what other people do and believe does
affect us, why in the world you deny that? No, we cant change them, but it does
affect us.
when you look inside yourself, you also see the larger culture, the outside
world. black women are expected to shoulder an enormous amount of emotional
strength, and not expect the racism of the outside world affect them, even to
the extent that large numbers of black men are now getting a chance to put
their racial preferences into practice, its absurd and dishonest to not expect
it to affect even a woman with good self esteem, or be concerned with how it
affects the community in general. and once again, we are talking about not
seeing one couple, but we are talking about seeing the majority of black men
with non black women, how in the world can you say
that it wouldnt affect his sister? are you being for real, here?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ronald said: >so now that "sister" is dating a guy from peru, it seems as

though she's
>on a bit of thin ice in "internalizing" anything with regard to black
>men and white women - unless she's doing it to somehow "get even" with
>black men. if that's the case, i can say without ever having met her

>that she's going to lose that battle. there are too many people in

>the world and she is too (relatively) insignificant to hope to have
>any chance of "getting even" with black men.
>

>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: here you are just being spiteful. he gave no indication
that she was dating to get back at anyone. where did you get that?
I begin to wonder about you. you sound quite defensive.

[SVCORBIN]

d waters said:
First of all, communities improve themselves one person at a time. So when you
ask "Is our community healthy?", no community is entirely healthy or unhealthy.
Healthiness, as subjective as it is, is only meaningful at the individual
level.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: do you know what a community is? much less what a healthy community
is? the community and the individual interact, one affects the other.
individuals among other things share values with other other, to say that
healthiness only occurs at an individual level is nonsense.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DWaters said:
The Simpson-Connerly mentality is a problem that's a lot deeper than a
perceived preference for "white" women. Some people call it self-hating and a
whole host of other things. I don't know what the best term should be but I
could only guess that somehow their reality believes in the concept of a
priviledged ("white") society and that they have become accepted as part of
that priviledged ("white") society. In each of *their* cases it's important for
them to believe that they're accepted because they have something that other

AfAms lack...something that makes them "special". I don't think that there's

anything healthy about being deluded in that manner. And that's not to say
that a strong sense of self-confidence has to be delusional...of course if it
is then
I'd be too deluded to know! :-)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Shelley c: Waters, you actually seem somewhat sober in these paragraphs. but
you miss the basic point in how most black folks can be like OJ and Connerly.
by the denial of racism and the mental paradigms they use to explain the
existance of racism in their own thinking. how many times have I see it in this
thread alone. its your "perception", its all in your head. etc.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
david W said:>The real question is where did the communication breakdown
between AfAm

>men and AfAm women? At what age? Early teens? High school? College?
>More importantly, what's the quality of that communication? What are the
>limits of that communication?
>--

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyC: now this is dishonest,It is not that black men are having
communication problems with black women, that is making them date out of their
race. its simply the men now have an opportunity to date someone of lighter
skin or higher casted race. Thats it, thats all. the same thing happens in
other communities. when Jewish men were able to gain access into the wide
society
a large number of them ran after the shiska goddess. the same sort of thing
with Italian men, Indian men, Hispanic men. etc.

the "problem" is

[SVCORBIN]

D Waters writes:
Frankly, I don't give a damn what type of bimbi appear in rap videos orany
other music videos. That's fashion, not culture. And before you tell me that
"rap" and "hip hop" are African American culture, why don't you first tell me
what role education plays in African American culture? In other words, when are
we going to make education a more important part of African American Culture
than fashions like "rap" and "hip hop"?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: MUSIC AND FASHION ARE NOT A PART OF CULTURE?!?!?!?!?!???? DID YOU
ACTUALLY SAY THAT???
culture includes among other things, music, values, religions
rituals, institutions, family and social organisations, geography ,fashions,
etc . Hip hop and the cotton club is merely a reflection of that culture, its
not independant of it, for crying out loud. As to what role that education
plays in culture (this coming from a man who claims he repects folks more who
think than just read), it
shapes much of the culture, yes. but what value is education t o
this point when when as discussion like the racial caste system is not
covered in school? the hip hop videos was just ONE example.
we are still having arguments are "good and bad hair" for crying out loud! the
AKA used the be the sorority for light skinned women. a lot of it has died out,
some of it has not.
Dont think for one minute that because you said "I dont give a damn about what
is in rap videos" that you have answered the
dilemma that I posed. whether you care or not , young people are seeing these
videos, and no matter what their parents might say, they still get the picture
internalized.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

David Waters said:
>The sad part about this is that you're complaining about
>messages in "rap videos" while I'd have to ask why wasn't the "correct"
>message taught at home or in the school in the first place.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
and what "correct" message is that? yours? which denies
being white doesnt give a female status in a racist society? you havent even
dealt with it yourself. the black community doesnt
like to talk about the color complex, including most of the folks on this
thread. so once again, tell me what message are you talking about? Kids pick up
what thier elders feel and its shows up even in the culture they make.

[Rich Thompson]

On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, SVCORBIN wrote:

> No black person with half a brain would admit that race affected his or
> her choice of partner. I wouldnt.

Actually, this is not true at all. Most Black people would not admit that
a partner's *white* race affected his or her choice (although there are
exceptions to this also). But there are schools of thought that the
person's race *should* affect his or her choice in a different way than
what you describe (i.e., Black people should choose Black people). Thus
many people will proudly say (not just "admit", but proudly say) that they
only date Black men (or women). While this isn't everyone's style, they
don't seem to find this in any way damaging to admit it and few people
criticise a Black person for only dating Black people...

In fact, Shelly, I'd be quite surprised if you were to say that race
*wasn't* a factor in your choice.

[Dat Fuule]

SVCORBIN wrote:
>

<edit>

> he is approach by a lady on nondescript appearance, who is nice and very

HAH! Where in the world is this woman who would actually approach a
man? I realize this is a fiction, but at least David's fiction was
believable.

> now is this "wrong" of him? no. but what I am just trying to say
> is that people make up reasons to accomodate their own biases
> or proclivities. and let me go out on a limb and say that Men are
> visual, not saying that they are not interested in anything else.
> but they will go towards to appeals to them from the eye, first.

What, do women go towards the ugly man to find out if he's got a "great
personality?" C'mon.

> and in this culture, that appeal involves race. I just want people to
> be TRUTHFUL about what they want and why they want it, and
> not make up some bogus reason AT THE EXPENSE OF SOMEONE ELSE.
> I cannot believe that is too much to ask.

Maybe people are being truthful, and don't have an ax to grind. Maybe
there are people who don't date with political agendas. Maybe there are
those out there who do. And, maybe we shouldn't run around ascribing a
variety of motives and getting into folks heads with respect to with
whom they do/do not want.

J.Harkless

[SVCORBIN]

D waters said:
<But you seem to feel strongly that there's a de facto preference for lighter
skin even among African Americans that transcends dating to business hiring
decisions. I'm aware that certain AfAms hold such silly beliefs but it wasn't
so widespread in the part of Compton that I grew up in to consider it a
significant problem. In fact, I recall that it was strange when someone seemed
to hold such a viewpoint.
>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
once again, you claim I am talking about my "feelings or perceptions". Look
man, I am talking FACT!
I read this in Jet last year and saw on Nightline a report that stated
in a national study LIGHT SKINNED BLACKS on average actually made a higher wage
than DARK SKINNED black folks.
this is not my "perception", I am getting sick and tired with your suggestion
that this is just in my head. DEAL WITH REALITY.
please.

[Dat Fuule]

SVCORBIN wrote:
>
> oh, and by the way, I do not know, nor can I really judge Individual
> on how or why they choose the people they do, unless I know something
> about their personal life, ie OJ Simpson. but

Okay. *This* I can deal with.

> I am trying to talk generally about social issue and the reason
> any number of men or women use race in choosing a mate, house
> job, shop, take your pic.

Okay. Despite it's biological absurdity, race is a very real social
construct and source of comfort zones. That goes a long way in
explaining the persistence of mild de facto segregation. There are some
survival issues floating around in there, too.

> and the racial caste system is REAL, not just in beauty either.
> months ago it was reported that light skinned black folks make more
> money on average that dark skinned black folks.

I'd like to see the stats. (This is not, repeat, NOT some sneaky
debating trick; I'm actually interested in the info...) What factors
were adjusted for?

> and dont even talk
> about other countries. isnt any of this real to you. if we

I doubt anyone with their head out of the sand/their a** would say it's
not real.

J.Harkless

[SVCORBIN]

D waters said:
<Look, if Wesley Snipes makes claims about "black" women then hold Wesley
Snipes accountable and no one else. If I make such a claim then hold me
accountable but no one else. And even if I make some broad generalization (no
pun intended), it would only be limited to my experience as one man and it
wouldn't really apply to you unless you were one of the specific women in my
sample.
>

+++++++++++++++++++++
Yo, Waters, thats what I have been doing. I responded to what you have said and
I do agree, your experience is limited.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

David waters said:
>
>First off, I *do* have a right to date whom I please (and who pleases me)
>and that's the end of the discussion. But in case you're not clear on where
*I* stand, *I* don't have a pre-defined (or other) preference for "white"
women. Can I describe what my "type" is? To be perfectly honest, no! Why
not? Because I assess each woman one at a time on her own merits!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: THAT LAST SENTENCE IS MY FAVE QUOTE!
you sound EXACTLY like Connerly when you deny you dont use race and judge
"individuals on their merits"
Look, lets be honest, shall we? I do not expect any black male with any degree
of respectibility and at least two brains cells that connect to admit that
would choose a woman at least in part based on her race, even a little bit,
you HAVE to deny it, you have nothing to gain by admitting such a thing, not
even to yourself. and yes who indeed is to say that race had anything to do
with that choice? NO ONE, oh there are rare obvious examples like OJ, but most
of the time, its more subtle. and its all a personal choice.
thats why racism is so permanent in this society. when you put it on a
"individual" level, it can always be denied.
your entire discussion has remided me of that Supreme Court case a few years
back. Civil Rights groups wanted to prove discrimination by showing entire
pattern of blacks or was it
Alaskan Indians in jobs. they said while they couldnt not prove the company was
discriminating on a individual basis, one could see by the low level of black
employed the company for finding a way to discriminate. the court said patterns
and group figures dont count. which is why rep/cons like to bring up this phony
individual bs. racism can be protected by being denied.

[SVCORBIN]

D waters:

Is there anything else that I care to volunteer?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: please refrain from giving out your personal proclivities, I do not
care to know about them.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

D Waters said:
I find this humorous because it almost sounds like you see dating as a
candidate for Affirmative Action principles.
Look, unless you practice polygamy, one date/spouse is all you get at one
particular time. Of what interest are IR dating ratios to you if all you need
is ONE MAN? Were you appointed by a coalition of "black" women to herd up all
of the stray "black" men? I don't think so!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: DW, your repeated attempts to make me feel self concious or
oppressive are going to fail. If I was a very self absorbed individual as you
seem to have mastered, I would not care. but it does matter if I see around me
that most black women around me will have to be or remain single mothers,
because it affects the world around me. life is not just about my needs etc.
and once again with the :"herding" comment
you keep trying to imply that black women have some power over what black men
to control them, which of course we all know we do not. I am not a slave, but I
am very concerned with the issue of slavery going on thousands of miles away in
Africa. I am concerned with dozens of things, some of which affect me, some
dont.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DW said:
Okay, fair enough, perhaps you *are* the appointed "Pied Piper" of stray
"black" men. And let's say that you could summon these stray "black" men away
from "non-black" women...if all these men truly believe in the concept of
"white good, black bad" then you'll probably run into the old "you can lead a
horse to water but you can't make him drink" problem. That was intentionally
flippant just to illustrate the absurdity of the
idea. Look, in this country (USA) dating is a personal choice issue that should
not be subject to group politics, plain and simple.

And apparently some of the "white" men unless there's a huge surplus of
"white" women.>

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: once again, you are stated I am trying to force black men to do
anything. why do keep saying this? why do soooo many men like you fear that
your right to date white women will be taken away? who is going to do that? I
know its very important to you, although I didnt realize until this board how
widespread this fear is. and you are right ? if a man has a taste for a
particular kind of women or loves her, there is no changing this. sexual taste
are hardwired in the brain as well as socially reinforced early in childhood.
once again, this speaks to how permanent race is. exactly what do you mean by
group politics?
the black community in England is 3 to 5% so the number of
white women who are dating black men not large enough to affect white dudes.
to any degree ,but I cant speak any more on that because thats all I have.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DW saids:

Then why do some "white" women pick "black" men? Why do some Asian women
pick "black" men? It's just as easy for you to assume that they do
because they're "tramps", etc., as it is for "black" men to claim that
"black" women are "bitter", "abrasive", "obnoxious" or whatever the
(so-called) typical claims are against "black" women.

The bottom line on this dating crap is that there's no way that you're ever
going to convince me that every AfAm male in your neighborhood, city, county,
and state is with a "non-black" woman. And I'll go out on a limb and state
for a fact that the remaining men aren't all passing over "black" women for the
next available "white" or Asian girl. So, are you going to wait for one to
approach you or are you going to approach
them?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: I dont use and have not used words like Every or ALL
I never said that. stop dismissing a claim I never made in the first place. I
did not call white women who are with black men tramps. why do you need to lie
in this way to have a conversation? why cant you understand I not discussing
this
on a personal level, but a social one? When I say I am concerned about povery
and starvation, it does not mean I am poor and starving. I try to see beyond
myself and my needs all the times.
I want to look at this from a wider POV, if you are not capable of that, please
quit the field.

/*--- [ The rest of this has nothing to do with IR dating. ] ---*/

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: the black community still has the white man's ice is colder
: syndrome, we are talking about a community that spends 95% of its : income
outside of its own community,. In this society, it is "normal" to : naturally
gravitate to white things,-especially when we have access. : white neighboors,
white schools, white stores, white businessses.

I founded Multimedia Business Answers and most of my initial efforts were
directed at the AfAm community. What did I learn? First of all, I was
introducing a technology years before anyone was ready to appreciate it. But
concerning the AfAm community, I learned that people are much more concerned
about their personal survival than anything else.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelley c said: the same thought process that affect IR dating also affects the
entire community. now why is THAT so hard to understand? not only are white
mate status, but living in white neighboorhoods, working for big white corps.
etc..... as to black folks not appreaciating your vision, talk about
irrelevant!

[SVCORBIN]

clarke said:
<Question: Now, if Wesley stepped to you would you shoot him down?>

shelleyc: what do you mean by "stepped to you"?

[Marci Wright]

Rich Thompson wrote:

>Ah, but she *is* Black.
>Hmmm....

LOL! I guess you like to keep those good psychology case-studies close at
hand, don't you?

>My girlfriend can't stand him. She's more of a Denzel Washington kind of
>woman.

Now, there's a woman with taste. Denzel is a much better looking man.

mw:

>> participating in this NG, I've met a few white men in Birmingham whom,
>> because of their respectful behavior, I'd be willing to date.

rt:

>Admit it, Marci. That's only because of *my* influence.

Of couse, Rich! I'd have dated you, except she stole you away... :-)

Marci Wright

ma...@uab.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------
"If you want to define water, don't ask a fish. If you want to

define the world, don't ask a man."

Ravi Zacharias

[SVCORBIN]

mcduffee said:
Why is that the message?
<If a black man with a white woman implies "white is best", then doesn't
a white woman with a black man imply "black is best"?
>

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: once again, I am not talking about one couple, I am talking about
when you begin to see a large number of the same thing. When black spend all
of their money in white neighborhoods, move to the white neighborhoods, are you
telling me you dont understand that?
++++++++++++++++++++++++

David Mc Duffee said:
>Does a man with a woman imply "woman is best" or "man is best"?
>Is a man who only goes out with women a gender traitor?
>Black women complain about black men who date white women.
>Asian men complain about Asian women who date white men.
>When Asian men and black women get together, everyone will have someone
>and no one will ever complain again...

>David McDuffee
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc:
I believe what you are referring to in the first sentence is
hypogamy, i think its the right term. where in a racial caste system
the spouse in the upper racial caste are marrying down, usually in exchange for
a mate who has acheived in some way. there are some signs this happens. check
a anthropology book if you want to know more about that.
Is a man who only goes out with women a gender traitor? you are realllly
stretching it ,arent you?
I believe you have advocated this asianmale/black women thing before. as you
know, its unlikely this will happen since those groups also different racial
proclivities. . asian men and black women get the least enjoyment out of their
racial stereotypes and black men and white and asian women get the most

[David C. Waters]

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: Waters, waters, waters! lets cut the crap, shall we? that semifictional

: story was totally self serving. You created a situation to fit what you
: wanted to prove. when you create your own characters and circumstances,
: what the heck do you expect?

I offered it for anyone to modify/change as they see fit...why didn't you?

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: A man goes to a cabaret with his buddies to meet women.

I'll assume that this isn't a place where "lap dances" are offered.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: they decide to sit in the corner at the end of the club to get a good

: look at the women who come in. He is a good looking guy, not
: unintelligent and not without prospects, he wants to find someone that

: will meet his standa[r]ds.

His standards for what purpose? The problem is that women don't come in
the one size fits all category until *after* you say "I do" at the alter!

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: as the club starts to cook, he is making decisions on who he wants to

: get to know better. ..a number of women are too fat for his taste, and
: he doesnt relate to really dark skinned women, unless they are really
: sweet, but the one in purple is nice to talk to, but maybe next time.

Wait a minute...what kind of *FEATURES* does this dark skinned woman
have? Obviously her skin isn't silky smoothe with dark, rich eyes, and a
stare that could make him write bad checks. Her shoulders must not be
exquisitely shaped, with nice, slender, perfect skin, down the curve of
her back to her booty (and we all know what kind of booty), and those
legs...oh, those legs! <sigh!>

You've got to develop these characters and give 'em more than one feature
if you're going to use features at all.

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: lets see... she wears a weave, I hate that! ....too much make up, I am

: not even going near those claws.

Okay, good points. You're describing things that I don't like in *any*
woman: fake hair, the need to hide her real face, and weapons that might
leave permanent scars on my back! Please don't assume that anyone will
dismiss "black" women for doing this only to turn around and accept
"white" or Asian women for doing the same thing. It won't happen!

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: ....she is a sexy dancer...but she came with someone...
: he is approach by a lady on nondescript appearance, who is nice and very
: interested in him, but she is really nothing special, he keeps looking

: around in a way that doesnt insult her. in comes two females that are
: different, they are Arab. wow, he is trying to be nonchalante as he
: breaks off from the . lady who was interested in him, he takes her
: number and goes off in pursuit. "this lady was too pushy, I want
: somebody sweet". as he walks off in a b line straight to these Arabic
: females.

But tell us *why* he goes after those Arabic women. They're not wearing
wigs, too much makeup, or have insanely long (or artificial) nails do
they?

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: now is this "wrong" of him? no. but what I am just trying to say

: is that people make up reasons to accomodate their own biases
: or proclivities.

If your perception of people is as shallow as your character development
then there's no wonder you feel the way you do!

I didn't give the characters features in my story only because it wasn't
about features. It also wasn't about the character's "preferences"
(except for not wanting to be with somebody like "Moesha's obnoxious
friend"). My character's original preference was for (at least) three
different "black" women...the fourth was a different story.

But my character didn't go *looking* for an Asian woman after that, he
was given an invitation by one that worked out better than his approaches
with the AfAm women. Build it and they will come. Invite them and they
will come!

I'd guess that "brothas" aren't just goin' up to any ol' "white" or Asian
women and askin' 'em out on dates. I think that these "brothas" are
invited.

I guess that the question is really whether "white" and Asian women are
more *active* in their dating pursuits than AfAm women...

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: and let me go out on a limb and say that Men are visual, not

: saying that they are not interested in anything else.
: but they will go towards to appeals to them from the eye, first.

: and in this culture, that appeal involves race.

Y'know, I was with you right up until you said "race". Am I visual?
Damn right, that's why I live in Southern California and not Utah! :-)

But so what? I don't chase everything that I look at (anymore). I
remember saying that "cute" only lasts for two weeks when I was about 21
years old. It got down to 15 minutes when I was about 30. Now, that I'm
37 it's down to about 4 syllables.

In other words, there's a world of difference between getting one's
attention and keeping it!

SVCORBIN (svco...@aol.com) wrote:
: I just want people to be TRUTHFUL about what they want and why they

: want it, and not make up some bogus reason AT THE EXPENSE OF SOMEONE
: ELSE. I cannot believe that is too much to ask.

But you can't go around deciding for other people what that truth is!

[SVCORBIN]

>
>Anyway, Bell created a very realistic (and emotionally painful, I might
>add) ensuing discussion about love, infatuation, loyalties, and
>responsibilities between the two leaders once he started dating this white
>doctor. I found a hard time taking either person's side, but I eventually
>sided with the black woman.
>
>Marci Wright
>
>ma...@uab.edu

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I read that book, and that story. it had the "magical white woman" in it. okay,
she wasnt magical, but she was the "dream" woman.
white with black sensitivities, and he overromantized the relationship, they
were sooo intuned with each other it was deep romantic love, she was so
wonderful he couldnt but help fall in love with her . of course its all an
allegory. so he could get away with this stuff. too bad the black female
character expected so much from the black male character.

[David C. Waters]

Dat Fuule (de...@uclink4.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: HAH! Where in the world is this woman who would actually approach a

: man? I realize this is a fiction, but at least David's fiction was
: believable.

:-)

Actually, I can relate to that part of Shelley's story because I *have*
been approached...probably count the times on one hand though...and I
didn't go chasin' after some Arabic women. But I'd guess that I've
been approached (at dance clubs) at least four times. Twice by "black"
women, one "white" woman I recall, and one whom I can't quite
characterize. Unfortunately, none of 'em were whom I'd go out of my way
for but they weren't repulsive. They were all pretty non-descript just
like Shelley said...come to think about it...Naaaaaaah! :-)

The worst was when I was at this club called the "Mardi Gras" in Long
Beach (gone now) and a slightly toasted (intoxicated) "sista" cupped my
ass! Man, did *I* jump? Y'see, Long Beach is known to have a large gay
poplulation and I feared for the worst.

[SVCORBIN]

Actually, it's been my understanding that this whole "complexion complex"
is strongest in Louisiana (the whole Creole thing) and other Southern
states. Among most folks I know, that sort of thinking is considered
"backward". Therefore, it surprised me this year to hear two different
AfAms follow this thinking...but both were raised in the South.

Anyway, the whole behaviour is generically known as Colonial Mentality.
It exists in South America (especially Brazil) and even in Southeast Asia
(including the Philippines). Like I said, your mistake is presuming that
everyone subscribes to it.

--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/_/ David C. Waters, Jr. _/_/ Integrated Business Solutions _/_/

_++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
once again, you are doing your usual shuffle, DW.
"color complexes are only something that takes place in backwards places", not
among the folks I associate with, we are tooooo sophisticated for that,, blah
blah blah....
well, I got news for you buddy, its everywhere. true, there are variations and
to different degrees, but its all the same theme. I live in Detroit, never
been further south than ohio.

========================================= MODERATOR COMMENT
MOD: Please watch tone.

[David C. Waters]

[Just when I thought I was out, Rich pulls me back in!]

Rich Thompson (tho...@ego.psych.mcgill.ca) wrote:
: I suppose the perception of a number of Black women is that they are

: constantly rejected for the same reason, but it's not one that *can* be
: changed (i.e., being Black). I'm not commenting on how realistic that
: this perception is, but merely pointing out that it exists.

For the sake of argument, let's say that some "black" women thinks that
the problem is "simply being black". You're the "Psychology Dude", Rich,
isn't there probably a deeper problem than just getting dates?

I guess that I just don't understand how someone can allow other people
to make them think that their skin color is a "problem". Of course it
*would* be a problem to me if someone thought that her skin (or most
anything else) was a problem to her!

Rich Thompson (tho...@ego.psych.mcgill.ca) wrote:
: Part of the issue you may be overlooking is that a discrepancy in a
: certain direction will have a bigger impact on a numerical minority
: than on a majority.

Rich, you've been here long enough to know that I realize this. I was
really being flippant because some unverifiable statistics like that
would be offered.

Rich Thompson (tho...@ego.psych.mcgill.ca) wrote:
: I suppose the question is "why do more white women pick Black men than

: White men pick Black women?"

: or "why do more Black men pick white women than Black women pick white
: men?"

A "white" woman once told me that because she didn't fit the blonde/blue
stereotype that the "white" boys she grew up with seemed to prefer, she
never really felt comfortable with "white" men. I guess that she felt
insecure about not necessarily being their first choice. AFAIK, she
prefers to *not* to date "white" men.

Does she feel more secure with "black" men because she figures that
"they'd settle for *any* ol' 'white' woman"? Maybe she did until she
found out that she was gettin' played.

But that would tend to support Shelley's contention except you'd have to
hear from a "black" man who dated her to know the truth.

--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/_/ David C. Waters, Jr. _/_/ Integrated Business Solutions _/_/

[SVCORBIN]

clarke said:
<the record, WESLEY IS NOT DISSIN' ALL BLACK WOMEN!!!
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: No one ever said he said ALL, dont misquote me.
let me ask you something, when those Texaco exec talks about
black jellybeans were you not offended because they didnt say
ALL blacks are jellybeans. does it require the word all to get you to notice?
what if an white company said....due to the fact that that
of the bad experiences we have have with the black employees,
we prefer to hire people from this other group that just happen to be hispanic.
that is not dissin black folks?
if the same number of black females were dating outside their race as black
males, that is what I was talking about in Ratios.
I used the 40% black Englishmen to show that when black males
are allowed full access to non black females their numbers will
be comparable to men of other groups. now what do I need to talk to Black
Englishmen about?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Clarke said: >
>Black is masculine; that's true. Just kidding. Proceed.
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc:
that comment saids a lot, although you blew it off. Black men take a
great deal of enjoyment from their black sexual images. I know you would deny
enjoying a stereotype, and you are wise to do so.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Clarke saids
>
>Can exist, but does it? Or does it in a large degree? I think that's
>the point Mr. Waters was trying to make.
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: It is rare that I have seen anyone untouched by white supremacy on
some level.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
clarke said:
>So if I sold you ice would you think it was warmer than white man's ice? No,
but seriously, our problem of spending money outside the community has alot to
do with the fact that we haven't set up enough businesses to capture our own
money. I think Black folks would by Black if we just set the stores up.
>It's difficult to test this when we don't have a basis for comparison, since
most stores are white-owned. I also suspect that some of the "problems " as
you see it in the dating game come down to availablility. As Blacks move into
the higher eschelons of society, our numbers thin out.
>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
you need to pick up a book like BLACK LABOR, WHITE WEALTH to learn how and why
black folks dont own business.
black folks are famous for boycotting themselves and not supporting black
businesses. the availability factor is also nonsense, black women are
suppassing or equal to black men in the higher fields, in the future they will
leave black men in the dust professionally, but black males still outstrip
females in dating out of their race.
++++++++++++++++++++
Clarke said:
>
>For a tiny minority, this may be the case. But, I think that on a
>personal level, people naturally like others that make them feel
>good. This ability is trans-racial.
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: of course people like others who make them feel good, having someone
who is white or in a higher racial status can makes their partners feel like
they have arrived and that is trans-racial.
that was my point, we agree on this.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
clarke said:>
>>Yes, race is no different. But, I believe that today
>people are learning to evaluate their preferences and say
>to themselves, "Does this really mean that I'll get that?"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: the more things change, the more they stay the same.
people may or may not evaluate, but they do the same thing they would have
before.

[SVCORBIN]

JH said:
<I'd like to see the stats. (This is not, repeat, NOT some sneaky
debating trick; I'm actually interested in the info...) What factors
were adjusted for?>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
shelleyc: fair enough. but since it was on TV Nightline a few months ago, and I
didnt buy the jet, I am going to have to look for the study. dont know how long
it will take. adjusted factors and all of that were not mentioned .