feeder schools?
LoRd HoO-wA!
Colleges... Just where are these school, and who are the people behind this?
newen...@my-deja.com
kids to Ivy League colleges. Just where are these schools and who are
the people behind this?"
Okay, I'll bite. They (the schools) aren't what you think. They're
just secondary schools that attract achievers for one reason or
another. Some are selective city high schools, like the Bronx High
School of Science, and others are selective private schools, like
Andover. A handful of them use to send "tons" to the Ivy League when
the Ivy League was more aristocratic than meritocratic. But nowadays
they send about as many kids as might be expected to get in on their
own (the kids' own) merits, without an advantageous shove, or perhaps
with a slightly advantageous shove, from connected college counseling
offices.
But by your question I suppose you meant, literally, Where are the
private boarding schools that feed or once fed the Ivy League? The
answer is New England, of course.
A while back I proposed an Ancient Eight for prep schools
comprising, in descending order of preppiness, Groton School in Groton,
Massachusetts, St. Paul's School in Concord, New Hampshire, Choate
School (now Choate Rosemary Hall) in Wallingford, Connecticut,
Hotchkiss School in Lakeville, Connecticut, Deerfield Academy in
Deerfield, Massachusetts, Lawrenceville School in (non-New England)
Lawrenceville, New Jersey, Phillips Exeter Academy in Exeter, New
Hampshire, and Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts.
But that was then and this is now.
newengland
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
nitewing
<hoo...@softhome.net> wrote:
>I've heard of feeder schools that send tons of kids to Ivy League
>
If you mean high schools, then a lot of the magnet schools or the top
private schools have a good track record in terms of Ivy League
admissions. My high school, Stuyvesant High School in New York City,
falls under this category as every year roughly 300 students go on to
Ivies or similarly good schools (Stanford, MIT, Chicago, etc. the Ivy
Plus group as they call it) and close to 100% of graduates go on to
four-year colleges (class size of about 750-800). There are plenty of
such schools, "feeder" schools as you call them. Some off the top of
my head are Stuyvesant (as mentioned in NYC), Thomas Jefferson High
School for Science and Technology (Virgina), Lowell HS (San Fran, I
think), U Chicago Lab School (chicago obviously), Phillips-Exeter,
Andover, Boston Latin, and a bunch of others. A lot of states also
have Governor's schools which invites the top students in the state.
As for "who the people behind this" are, it depends on the school.
Some are run by the local Board of Ed and admissions are based on
special procedures (tests and such), some are private schools, some
are partially or fully subsidized by a certain institution. It all
depends.
~Rathin
James
> Colleges... Just where are these school, and who are the people behind
this?
Most private schools can fall into this category and a lot of Ivy League
schools take over 30% of their students from such schools. The first public
school that comes to my mind is Stuyvesant in New York city. I would say
the second best NY school is in Central New York (state), and that is
Fayetteville-Manlius. FM has actually consistently beat Stuyvesant in
academic competitions such as Science Olympiad. What is amazing about FM is
not only the large number of students they send to Ivies, but how well those
students do once they get there. Many students in the bottom half of the
class end up being in the top 5% of the best universities. A lot of
universities use local high schools as their feeders, such as Cornell and
Ithaca High School.
Mark
James wrote:
I'm from the adjacent "JD" district in CNY (which is half the size of FM but is
"better" than FM in Science Olympiad, National Merit Finalists, and Ivy League
placement), but I wouldn't consider either FM or JD to be "feeder schools,"
except to Cornell. Nor are they among the top 5 or 10 public schools in New
York State. Your observation is very true, however; historically, the top
students from very good public schools like FM have done very well upon arrival
at top universities. Among the college and professional schools here at Yale,
we have at least five JD graduates, and one of the FM graduates here recently
put on a nice art exhibition. --Mark, yale college 2002
John P O'Hara
Aquinas Institute in Rochester ranks right up there with FM in every
area. It's a nice school, but I wouldn't consider it academically superior
in any respect to some of the top schools in Rochester and Buffalo.
Besides, we beat FM in football... ;-)
John
"James" <CRiST...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pv4O4.16690$GP3.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
nitewing
>
> Okay, I'll bite. They (the schools) aren't what you think. They're
>just secondary schools that attract achievers for one reason or
>another. Some are selective city high schools, like the Bronx High
>School of Science, and others are selective private schools, like
>Andover. A handful of them use to send "tons" to the Ivy League when
>the Ivy League was more aristocratic than meritocratic. But nowadays
>they send about as many kids as might be expected to get in on their
>own (the kids' own) merits, without an advantageous shove, or perhaps
>with a slightly advantageous shove, from connected college counseling
>offices.
>
Just a little quirk of mine, that probably has something to do with
the fact that Bronx Science is my high school's (Stuyvesant's) rival
school.. or *was* traditionally. But I don't think Bronx can any
longer be categorized as a "feeder" school by any stretch of the
imagination. The bulk of the top talent (almost 95% if not higher) in
New York City (public) is drawn by Stuyvesant and in lesser part by
Hunter College High School. Both of those schools (Stuyvesant and
Hunter, both in Manhattan) are two amazing schools comprising close to
90-95% of the top students selected from public schools in NYC to the
Ivies and other top schools (minus Cornell state colleges). The
percentage figure is a rough estimate of admission patterns over the
last decade, but I am sure if someone took the time and effort to
confirm that the actual figure is not going to be very far off at all.
Townshend Harris (Queens) and Midwood (Brooklyn) come in close after
Stuy and Hunter in New York City. But college acceptances (though in
this case relevant to the question posed) aren't the only measure of
the quality of a school. Neither are avg. SAT scores, National Merit
finalists, and whatever have you. If they are, I think Stuyvesant and
Hunter would easily come out on top. But those two schools (perhaps
expectedly so) consistently produce the top talent in other areas as
well: musical prodigies, actors, debate, chess, so on and so forth.
Bronx Science most certainly has a rich history and tradition of
academic excellence. It is, along with Stuyvesant and Brooklyn
Technical High School, one of the three specialized "M & S" high
schools in NYC (magnet schools). Students take a common SAT-type
examination for all three schools (scored out of an 800) in 8th grade
and depending on their performance, get into a certain school. This is
the only basis of admissions to all of three schools. Over the last
two or so decades, the cutoff score for Stuyvesant has been far higher
(by a margin of 75 points) than Bronx. Brooklyn Tech has the lowest
cutoff score of the three. There is a preference order students can
select of the three so that even if they get a score high enough to
get into Stuyvesant, they can still select Tech as their first choice.
But around 95% of all the students who take the standarized test list
Stuyvesant as their primary choice (and this is a figure often quoted
in the critiques of this test-based admissions policy). Hunter also
has a test-based admissions policy, but it is a 6year school (whereby
students take the exam in 6th grade and enroll at Hunter in the 7th).
A good number of Hunterites transfer to Stuyvesant after 8th grade.
About two decades ago or so, Bronx had the highest of the cutoff
scores and hence attracted the top talent in the city. It has thus
historically been more popular than Stuyvesant in the rest of the
country. But over the last two decades, Stuy has shifted as the leader
in terms of the cutoff scores and have hence admitted the upper
echelon of the students. In 1991, Stuyvesant acquired a new $150
million building (www.stuy.edu) in downtown Manhatan, a mere two
minute walk from the World Trade towers. All this has led to the
emergence of its reputation in college admissions offices. Bronx, on
the other hand, has conversely faded in the other direction.
My $0.02.
Anna Pakman
> expectedly so) consistently produce the top talent in other areas as
> well: musical prodigies, actors, debate, chess, so on and so forth.
No offense or anything, but Murrow's chess team (state champs this year),
music and art screened programs, and theater program kick Stuy's ass.
--
Anna Pakman
Stern School of Business Class of 2004
------------
Come visit the alt.music.celine-dion
Members Site at
http://come.to/alt.music.celine-dion
Anna Pakman
> comprising, in descending order of preppiness, Groton School in Groton,
> Massachusetts, St. Paul's School in Concord, New Hampshire, Choate
> School (now Choate Rosemary Hall) in Wallingford, Connecticut,
> Hotchkiss School in Lakeville, Connecticut, Deerfield Academy in
> Deerfield, Massachusetts, Lawrenceville School in (non-New England)
> Lawrenceville, New Jersey, Phillips Exeter Academy in Exeter, New
> Hampshire, and Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts.
>
> But that was then and this is now.
>
> newengland
>
You're forgetting Horace Mann in New York City, they have a direct line to
Harvard when decision time rolls around.
nitewing
<ann...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>No offense or anything, but Murrow's chess team (state champs this year),
>music and art screened programs, and theater program kick Stuy's ass.
Yes, Murrow is indeed another good school and sometimes perhaps
underrated. I wouldn't classify it as a "feeder" school, but
definitely a very good school. It is also known for its ability to
produce some really good drama/theater talent. Regarding chess though,
Stuyvesant was the national champ for the last three or so years
(check the Stuy chess club's site for exact specs).
~Rathin
James
Mark <me...@pantheon.NOSPAMyale.edu> wrote in message
news:3908F27A...@pantheon.NOSPAMyale.edu...
>
>
> James wrote:
>
> > > I've heard of feeder schools that send tons of kids to Ivy League
> > > Colleges... Just where are these school, and who are the people behind
> > this?
> >
> > Most private schools can fall into this category and a lot of Ivy
League
> > schools take over 30% of their students from such schools. The first
public
> > school that comes to my mind is Stuyvesant in New York city. I would
say
> > the second best NY school is in Central New York (state), and that is
> > Fayetteville-Manlius. FM has actually consistently beat Stuyvesant in
> > academic competitions such as Science Olympiad. What is amazing about
FM is
> > not only the large number of students they send to Ivies, but how well
those
> > students do once they get there. Many students in the bottom half of
the
> > class end up being in the top 5% of the best universities. A lot of
> > universities use local high schools as their feeders, such as Cornell
and
> > Ithaca High School.
>
but is
> "better" than FM in Science Olympiad, National Merit Finalists, and Ivy
League
> placement), but I wouldn't consider either FM or JD to be "feeder
schools,"
> except to Cornell. Nor are they among the top 5 or 10 public schools in
New
> York State. Your observation is very true, however; historically, the top
> students from very good public schools like FM have done very well upon
arrival
> at top universities. Among the college and professional schools here at
Yale,
> we have at least five JD graduates, and one of the FM graduates here
recently
> put on a nice art exhibition. --Mark, yale college 2002
Maybe I overestimated the amount of FM students that actually go to Ivy
League schools but the point I was trying to make is that the ones who do go
excel out of proportion and Ivy League schools should wake up and accept
more of their kids. JD is an excellent school also and comparable to FM.
However, FM is going to the Science Olympiad Nationals for the second year
in a row and I don't think JD even made it to States. I think FM also
regularly wins in the math competitions.
Zealot
nitewing wrote in message <3909c520...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>...
>On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:21:43 -0400, "LoRd HoO-wA!"
>>I've heard of feeder schools that send tons of kids to Ivy League
>>Colleges... Just where are these school, and who are the people behind
this?
>>
>
>private schools have a good track record in terms of Ivy League
>admissions. My high school, Stuyvesant High School in New York City,
>falls under this category as every year roughly 300 students go on to
>Ivies or similarly good schools (Stanford, MIT, Chicago, etc. the Ivy
>Plus group as they call it) and close to 100% of graduates go on to
>four-year colleges (class size of about 750-800). There are plenty of
>such schools, "feeder" schools as you call them. Some off the top of
>my head are Stuyvesant (as mentioned in NYC), Thomas Jefferson High
>School for Science and Technology (Virgina), Lowell HS (San Fran, I
>think), U Chicago Lab School (chicago obviously), Phillips-Exeter,
>Andover, Boston Latin, and a bunch of others. A lot of states also
>have Governor's schools which invites the top students in the state.
>
>As for "who the people behind this" are, it depends on the school.
>Some are run by the local Board of Ed and admissions are based on
>special procedures (tests and such), some are private schools, some
>are partially or fully subsidized by a certain institution. It all
>depends.
>
> ~Rathin
I think that is a bit misleading though, Stuyvesant is not nearly a feeder
school when compared to private and boarding schools. Andover and Exeter are
more rightfully feeder schools. In order to be a feeder school, I'd say that
a disproportionate number of students go to top colleges OR, students who
are underqualified go on to top colleges. the top 10 boarding schools are
the true feeder schools, Stuy is actually a disadvantage for college.
Zealot
Joshua P. Hill wrote in message
<3kljgs09jk4232vdp...@4ax.com>...
>On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:18:25 -0400, Anna Pakman
><ann...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>> A while back I proposed an Ancient Eight for prep schools
>>> comprising, in descending order of preppiness, Groton School in Groton,
>>> Massachusetts, St. Paul's School in Concord, New Hampshire, Choate
>>> School (now Choate Rosemary Hall) in Wallingford, Connecticut,
>>> Hotchkiss School in Lakeville, Connecticut, Deerfield Academy in
>>> Deerfield, Massachusetts, Lawrenceville School in (non-New England)
>>> Lawrenceville, New Jersey, Phillips Exeter Academy in Exeter, New
>>> Hampshire, and Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts.
>>>
>>> But that was then and this is now.
>>>
>>> newengland
>>>
>>
>>You're forgetting Horace Mann in New York City, they have a direct line to
>>Harvard when decision time rolls around.
>
>independent secondary day school, NYC's other top private schools are
>Ivy feeders as well. Here are the 1997 figures for Dalton, which are
>fairly representative:
>
>School Admissions
>
>Harvard 9
>Yale 7
>Cornell 5
>Dartmouth 6
>Penn 6
>Columbia 3
>Princeton 3
>Brown 3
>
>Total 42
>
>Class Size 116
>
>Percentage Attending Ivies 36%
>
>Unfortunately for those looking for an easy in, it can be tougher to
>get into nursery school at these places than into the Ivies
>themselves.
>
>Given that the students are preselected and culled along the way, I
>doubt that attendane actually confers much of an advantage at
>admissions time. OTOH, Dalton doesn't release class rank or compute a
>GPA; now that's what you call a feeder!
This is where stuy get's it's ass whooped. we got 13 kids into Harvard in a
class of 800
9/116 > 13/800
Zealot
nitewing wrote in message <390d2de5....@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>...
>expectedly so) consistently produce the top talent in other areas as
>well: musical prodigies, actors, debate, chess, so on and so forth.
>
Mark when he was in High school.
nitewing
wrote:
>Mark when he was in High school.
>
1994-98 bud.
newen...@my-deja.com
they have a direct line to Harvard when decision time rolls around."
No they don't, or rather, if they do then a hundred other schools
at that level and higher do too.
But my prep Ancient Eight identified a different species than
Horace Mann, namely, the old WASP bastions, analogous to, and partly or
mainly modelled after, the great English public schools -- Eton,
Winchester, Harrow, Rugby, Westminster, Shrewsbury, Marlborough,
Charterhouse, and their co-religionists.
Above -- even way above -- Horace Mann on a like-minded American
list would be Milton, St. Mark's, St. George's, Taft, and quite a few
others.
Here's a very short, very dated bibliography:
James McLachlan, American Boarding Schools (New York, 1970)
P.W. Cookson and C.H. Persell, Preparing for Power: America's
Elite Boarding Schools (New York, 1985)
Jonathan Gathorne-Hardy, The Old School Tie (British title, The
Public School Phenomenon, 597-1977) (New York, 1978)
Peter Schrag, The Decline of the Wasp (New York, 1971)
Paul Fussell, Class: A Guide Through the American Status System
(New York, 1983)
Anna Pakman
> underrated. I wouldn't classify it as a "feeder" school, but
> definitely a very good school.
Never said it was :)
> It is also known for its ability to
> produce some really good drama/theater talent. Regarding chess though,
> Stuyvesant was the national champ for the last three or so years
> (check the Stuy chess club's site for exact specs).
...and Murrow was the national champ for 3 or so years also... I believe 91,
92, 94 (??), anyway I'm sure they'll win this year cuz Irina Krush is on the
team and she's like the female world champion or sth
Anna Pakman
> when it comes to getting into top schools.
>
> --
>
> Josh
That's because Stuy isn't really a feeder school, it's a magnet school. A public
school overpopulated by smart and talented kids. When you're competing among the
best and the brightest of the city of course it's a lot harder to be numero uno.
Anna Pakman
> And not
> everyone at Stuyvesant is smart by an stretch of the imagination.. I
> know a heck of a lot of kids who are not that smart.
If they're not that smart how did they get in? I thought Stuy took from
the top.
nitewing
<XXjos...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>I've been told buy Stuy graduates that it's actually a disadvantage
>when it comes to getting into top schools.
>
Being a Stuy graduate, I fail to see how it can be a disadvantage.
The kids at the top of the graduating class, those who get into the
top schools, would get into those top universities irregardless of
whether they were at Stuy or not. The reputation of the high school
only adds to the candidate's portfolio. However, those who are on the
borderline in terms of getting into the top colleges, are helped by
the Stuy name more so than hurt by it. I know plenty of Stuyvesant
graduates who I don't think would have gotten into the schools that
they did if they did not have the Stuy name to give them the added
push. In that respect, it is indeed a "feeder" school. And not
everyone at Stuyvesant is smart by an stretch of the imagination.. I
know a heck of a lot of kids who are not that smart. Perhaps for the
group of students, being at Stuyvesant may be a disadvantage in the
sense you are implying it. *Maybe* their performance at any other
school might have been better and they *could* have gotten into better
schools...but I somehow am a little skeptical about that. If anything,
I think the school's reputation would balance the marginally lower
grades.
nitewing
<ann...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>If they're not that smart how did they get in? I thought Stuy took from
>the top.
>
Or so at least the theory goes. The test-based admissions policy
skews things at best. It may take the top n% of students from the
city (who apply and take the test), but that does not mean that all of
these n% of students are competitive on the national level. They may
be at the top in the NYC public education system (and even that claim
is a little muddled), but that does not automatically put them in the
same league as those who get into the top colleges in the country. I
think the top half of Stuy grads are incredibly competitive on the
national level, but what of the rest. I think this sort of dichotomy
is present in most schools, public or private. The question at hand
was whether coming from a popular school like Stuy or Hunter or Dalton
provides the bottom x% of students an advantage which they wouldn't
have had otherwise. I am of the opinion that it does.
~Rathin
RMrgrt
Josh-
I'd love to see your numbers. Where are you getting them?
Margaret Ricks
Joshua P. Hill XXjos...@mindspring.com
wrote on: 4/29/00 8:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <558ngsklh838ls4j6...@4ax.com>
>
>Colleges are fairly savvy about discrepancies in the grades and
>curricula at well known schools. But that doesn't mean that students
>are well advised, or that they aren't subject to various strange
>forces such as race, geographical diversity, and rich parents. Among
>other things, it's harder to come up with outstanding extracurriculars
>in a class of 800, given that there are a limited number of newspaper
>editorships and football captaincies!
>
>Find some numbers--combined SAT's, senior class size, number of kids
>going to each of the 8 Ivies--and let's see how Stuy compares to some
>notorious feeders. I've found some more figures since my last post,
>and they're fairly interesting.
>
>--
>
>Josh
>
Zealot
Joshua P. Hill wrote in message ...
>On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 03:35:19 GMT, nite...@eticomm.net (nitewing)
>wrote:
>
>>Or so at least the theory goes. The test-based admissions policy
>>skews things at best. It may take the top n% of students from the
>>city (who apply and take the test), but that does not mean that all of
>>these n% of students are competitive on the national level. They may
>>be at the top in the NYC public education system (and even that claim
>>is a little muddled), but that does not automatically put them in the
>>same league as those who get into the top colleges in the country. I
>>think the top half of Stuy grads are incredibly competitive on the
>>national level, but what of the rest. I think this sort of dichotomy
>>is present in most schools, public or private. The question at hand
>>was whether coming from a popular school like Stuy or Hunter or Dalton
>>provides the bottom x% of students an advantage which they wouldn't
>>have had otherwise. I am of the opinion that it does.
if you are in the botton 25% of stuy, it's off to SUNY, CUNY or some really
bad college, period.
>
>OTOH, I read an article in the Times a few years back about NY parents
>who were taking their kids out of some of the top City private schools
>and paying to send them to public school in Westchester. A kid with an
>IQ of 135, who would be considered gifted in most environments, has to
>struggle to keep up in an elite school where he's at the low end of
>the spectrum.
>
>My father was told once by an administrator at Dalton that they were
>always looking for tutors. When he asked why Dalton of all places
>needed tutors, she said simply "children of the famous and alumni."
>(To which she might have added the wealthy kids whose parents, from
>what I've heard, buy them in by contributing beyond tuition--the
>figure I heard was an additional $20,000 a year, and that was some
>years back.)
30% of Dalton also has "learning disabilities". Weird huh?
>
>--
>
>Josh
I spent ten years in the NYC private school system. Dalton, Trinity, Horace
Mann, Collegiate, Packer, Brearly, Friends, Fieldston, Chapin, Mary-Mount
etc.
The schools operate as a network, a private school system. The truth is that
(like stuyvesant) people make it out to be more than it really is.
What you read about the IQ of 135 kids struggling is complete bull. In my
school, k-8, a class of 32 had only two people pass the stuy test. They
however had about 15 kids go on to elite private schools or boarding
schools.
2 went to lawrenceville
1 to St. Andrew's
1 to collegiate
1 to Dalton
2 to Trinity
1 to Brearly
6 went to Packer (hehe)
and a bunch to other places.
These kids are not geniuses. Most aren't even smart. On standardized tests,
they hover around 90th %ile or so, they work hard, and their parents help
them in every way possible. They have every resource available to them, many
of them have millionaire parents, the others are well off children of
lawyers and doctors and such. They get through school, pull a 1350 on the
SAT after taking expensive tutoring programs and go off to ivy league
schools. At stuy, a 1350 is pretty bad. I will admit that one thing stuy is
very bad at is English. Many of our students have trouble with the English
language, but then again, more than half our school was born in another
country.
Zealot
>wrote:
>curricula at well known schools. But that doesn't mean that students
>are well advised, or that they aren't subject to various strange
>forces such as race, geographical diversity, and rich parents. Among
>other things, it's harder to come up with outstanding extracurriculars
>in a class of 800, given that there are a limited number of newspaper
>editorships and football captaincies!
>
>Find some numbers--combined SAT's, senior class size, number of kids
>going to each of the 8 Ivies--and let's see how Stuy compares to some
>notorious feeders. I've found some more figures since my last post,
>and they're fairly interesting.
>
>--
>
>Josh
| College | Number Applied |
Number Accepted |
Lowest Average Accepted |
SAT V | SAT M | Highest Average Rejected |
SAT V | SAT M |
| American | 3 | 3 | 86.01 | 79 | 69 | 95.16 | 72 | 73 |
| Amherst | 16 | 2 | 95.24 | 70 | 69 | 95.16 | 72 | 73 |
| Bard | 6 | 5 | 83.51 | 58 | 60 | 78.59 | 58 | 59 |
| Barnard | 43 | 18 | 91.56 | 67 | 73 | 95.13 | 69 | 70 |
| Bates | 6 | 2 | 87.09 | NA | NA | 89.61 | 77 | 58 |
| Boston College | 39 | 29 | 86.94 | 68 | 71 | 90.51 | 59 | 71 |
| Boston University | 110 | 82 | 81.52 | 62 | 76 | 95.13 | 69 | 70 |
| Bowdoin | 13 | 8 | 88.82 | 70 | 78 | 88.42 | 66 | 66 |
| Brandeis | 35 | 17 | 88.11 | 75 | 69 | 92.24 | 72 | 65 |
| Brooklyn Bio-Med | 18 | 5 | 94.27 | 77 | 75 | 95.79 | 65 | 73 |
| Brown | 62 | 14 | 94.17 | 77 | 67 | 98.33 | 76 | 76 |
| Bryn Mawr | 6 | 6 | 89.54 | 67 | 77 | - | - | - |
| Bucknell | 4 | 4 | 83.68 | 64 | 75 | - | - | - |
| CIT | 2 | 1 | 93.33 | 73 | 70 | 93.07 | 67 | 75 |
| Carleton | 10 | 5 | 92.77 | 74 | 78 | 93.97 | 64 | 69 |
| Carnegie Mellon | 101 | 60 | 84.50 | 66 | 79 | 95.08 | 71 | 67 |
| Case Western Reserve | 3 | 3 | 86.64 | 60 | 80 | - | - | - |
| City Bio Med | 30 | 14 | 91.45 | 67 | 69 | 94.34 | 70 | 71 |
| Claremont McKenna | 4 | 4 | 87.27 | 70 | 70 | - | - | - |
| Clark | 5 | 5 | 80.31 | 68 | 69 | - | - | - |
| Colby | 9 | 6 | 87.45 | 69 | 69 | 82.32 | 67 | 76 |
| Colgate | 20 | 14 | 87.43 | 66 | 59 | 89.25 | 68 | 75 |
| College of William & Mary | 15 | 12 | 89.70 | 75 | 73 | 90.79 | 66 | 65 |
| Columbia College | 142 | 29 | 92.01 | 77 | 75 | 97.38 | 71 | 72 |
| Columbia Engineering | 43 | 17 | 91.77 | 69 | 74 | 93.12 | 59 | 73 |
| Connecticut College | 5 | 4 | 87.50 | 71 | 61 | 82.32 | 67 | 76 |
| Cooper Union | 33 | 17 | 84.60 | 68 | 78 | 95.08 | 71 | 67 |
| Cornell - Agriculture and Life Sciences | 30 | 11 | 94.07 | 80 | 76 | 93.98 | 66 | 66 |
| Cornell - Architecture | 2 | 1 | 82.60 | 68 | 80 | 96.77 | 69 | 80 |
| Cornell - Arts and Sciences | 120 | 41 | 90.64 | 70 | 76 | 93.13 | 68 | 80 |
| Cornell - Engineering | 43 | 14 | 90.12 | 66 | 80 | 94.00 | 61 | 75 |
| Cornell - Human Ecology | 18 | 8 | 92.25 | 66 | 73 | 93.37 | 60 | 67 |
| Cornell - International Labor Relations | 14 | 7 | 90.02 | 63 | 73 | 89.45 | 67 | 66 |
| Dartmouth | 70 | 39 | 90.65 | 78 | 70 | 94.39 | 75 | 70 |
| Duke | 25 | 8 | 94.46 | 79 | 80 | 95.54 | 73 | 80 |
| Emerson | 9 | 7 | 84.28 | 64 | 72 | 81.42 | 62 | 72 |
| Emory | 23 | 12 | 90.34 | 69 | 69 | 90.87 | 66 | 61 |
| Fordham | 11 | 9 | 81.85 | 57 | 79 | 81.42 | 62 | 72 |
| George Washington | 18 | 14 | 85.51 | 69 | 66 | 85.74 | 63 | 76 |
| Georgetown | 54 | 15 | 90.89 | 72 | 60 | 95.13 | 79 | 72 |
| Georgia Tech | 6 | 5 | 84.33 | 61 | 80 | 84.14 | 66 | 72 |
| Grinnell | 5 | 4 | 83.51 | 58 | 60 | 85.14 | 73 | 70 |
| Hamilton | 9 | 8 | 84.12 | 61 | 72 | 85.15 | 67 | 72 |
| Hampshire | 7 | 5 | 86.49 | 64 | 72 | 82.60 | 68 | 80 |
| Harvard | 98 | 14 | 96.15 | 80 | 79 | 97.85 | 76 | 76 |
| Haverford | 10 | 2 | 93.11 | 74 | 68 | 91.56 | 71 | 74 |
| Hofstra | 5 | 5 | 85.52 | 61 | 60 | - | - | - |
| Ithaca College | 5 | 5 | 81.56 | 66 | 68 | - | - | - |
| John Hopkins | 52 | 12 | 90.97 | 62 | 79 | 94.53 | 70 | 74 |
| Kenyon | 5 | 4 | 88.40 | 75 | 73 | 82.32 | 67 | 76 |
| Lehigh | 20 | 13 | 85.78 | 62 | 66 | 83.85 | 67 | 80 |
| Macalester | 6 | 6 | 90.22 | 70 | 70 | - | - | - |
| MIT | 77 | 24 | 94.55 | 69 | 76 | 96.75 | 80 | 78 |
| McGill | 16 | 13 | 84.23 | 79 | 73 | 89.15 | 77 | 75 |
| Middlebury | 12 | 5 | 92.44 | 67 | 66 | 90.03 | 68 | 70 |
| NYU | 287 | 157 | 86.71 | 59 | 76 | 92.71 | 70 | 78 |
| Northwestern | 47 | 16 | 89.15 | 77 | 75 | 95.68 | 71 | 73 |
| Oberlin | 16 | 15 | 87.09 | NA | NA | 83.51 | 58 | 60 |
| Penn. State | 29 | 27 | 71.30 | 61 | 75 | 81.97 | 63 | 80 |
| Polytechnic | 13 | 13 | 73.19 | 57 | 69 | - | - | - |
| Pomona | 12 | 7 | 91.66 | 65 | 80 | 88.82 | 70 | 78 |
| Princeton | 41 | 7 | 95.90 | 70 | 76 | 98.45 | 73 | 78 |
| Reed | 4 | 4 | 87.09 | NA | NA | - | - | - |
| Rensselaer Polytech Institute | 26 | 22 | 83.27 | 67 | 80 | 84.60 | 68 | 78 |
| Rice | 5 | 3 | 92.25 | 66 | 73 | 91.99 | 71 | 66 |
| RIT | 6 | 6 | 81.33 | 55 | 67 | - | - | - |
| Rutgers | 19 | 19 | 80.01 | 77 | 80 | - | - | - |
| St. Johns | 11 | 10 | 77.48 | 62 | 72 | 90.56 | 64 | 68 |
| Sarah Lawrence | 7 | 3 | 87.44 | 71 | 72 | 85.24 | 66 | 65 |
| Skidmore | 11 | 8 | 85.41 | 68 | 69 | 83.51 | 58 | 60 |
| Smith | 8 | 6 | 86.94 | 68 | 71 | 88.89 | 64 | 70 |
| Stanford | 32 | 6 | 95.71 | 80 | 80 | 96.75 | 80 | 75 |
| Swarthmore | 10 | 6 | 93.11 | 74 | 68 | 95.29 | 77 | 76 |
| Syracuse | 20 | 14 | 81.56 | 66 | 68 | 90.79 | 61 | 67 |
| Trinity | 8 | 6 | 89.04 | 79 | 68 | 85.25 | 63 | 60 |
| Tufts | 92 | 40 | 91.87 | NA | NA | 93.36 | 58 | 72 |
| Tulane | 11 | 8 | 84.98 | 70 | 66 | 84.33 | 61 | 80 |
| Union | 8 | 4 | 87.44 | 71 | 72 | 91.45 | 67 | 69 |
| U.S. Military Academy | 2 | 1 | 96.18 | 78 | 71 | 92.73 | 76 | 73 |
| UC - Berkeley | 31 | 3 | 94.19 | 75 | 73 | 94.62 | 64 | 63 |
| UC - Los Angeles | 15 | 4 | 87.68 | 80 | 80 | 91.43 | 76 | 79 |
| UC - San Diego | 6 | 1 | 92.75 | 71 | 68 | 89.42 | 61 | 71 |
| U. of Chicago | 53 | 23 | 92.42 | 72 | 62 | 92.77 | 74 | 78 |
| U. of Delaware | 6 | 6 | 80.01 | 77 | 70 | - | - | - |
| U. of Illinois | 7 | 5 | 84.98 | 70 | 66 | 82.78 | 70 | 76 |
| U. of Maryland | 19 | 17 | 80.18 | 60 | 66 | 86.60 | 56 | 74 |
| U. of Massachusetts | 14 | 10 | 80.31 | 68 | 69 | 81.64 | 54 | 63 |
| U. of Michigan | 60 | 48 | 84.33 | 66 | 73 | 83.85 | 67 | 80 |
| U. of North Carolina | 7 | 4 | 95.04 | 74 | 67 | 84.28 | 64 | 72 |
| U. of Pennsylvania | 139 | 36 | 92.91 | 80 | 72 | 97.38 | 71 | 72 |
| U. of Rochester | 79 | 62 | 83.65 | 58 | 73 | 87.61 | 57 | 69 |
| U. of Southern California | 8 | 5 | 84.11 | 69 | 64 | 83.68 | 64 | 75 |
| U. of Virginia | 23 | 14 | 92.73 | 76 | 73 | 90.95 | 58 | 76 |
| U. of Wisconsin | 7 | 6 | 80.18 | 60 | 66 | 81.86 | 55 | 78 |
| Vassar | 63 | 34 | 87.50 | 71 | 61 | 90.51 | 59 | 71 |
| Washington U. - St. Louis | 42 | 14 | 90.02 | 63 | 73 | 93.63 | 68 | 71 |
| Wellesley | 19 | 13 | 89.44 | 78 | 75 | 92.40 | 74 | 71 |
| Wesleyan | 71 | 30 | 89.54 | 67 | 77 | 93.97 | 64 | 69 |
| Williams | 27 | 16 | 93.11 | 74 | 68 | 95.13 | 73 | 79 |
| Yale | 73 | 11 | 95.59 | 71 | 80 | 98.43 | 76 | 67 |
|
SUNY -- Data are based on students who have accepted admission.
| ||||||||
Zealot
Joshua P. Hill wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:50:29 -0300, "Zealot" <zea...@onepine.com>
>wrote:
>
>>>School Admissions
>>>
>>>Harvard 9
>>>Yale 7
>>>Cornell 5
>>>Dartmouth 6
>>>Penn 6
>>>Columbia 3
>>>Princeton 3
>>>Brown 3
>>>
>>>Total 42
>>>
>>>Class Size 116
>>>
>>>Percentage Attending Ivies 36%
>>>
>>>Unfortunately for those looking for an easy in, it can be tougher to
>>>get into nursery school at these places than into the Ivies
>>>themselves.
>>>
>>>Given that the students are preselected and culled along the way, I
>>>doubt that attendane actually confers much of an advantage at
>>>admissions time. OTOH, Dalton doesn't release class rank or compute a
>>>GPA; now that's what you call a feeder!
>>
>>This is where stuy get's it's ass whooped. we got 13 kids into Harvard in
a
>>class of 800
>>
>>9/116 > 13/800
>
>when it comes to getting into top schools.
>
>
>Josh
It is very much so.
Zealot
Joshua P. Hill wrote in message
>On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 00:53:00 GMT, nite...@eticomm.net (nitewing)
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:10:54 -0400, Joshua P. Hill
>><XXjos...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>when it comes to getting into top schools.
>>>
>>
Stuy:
(avg SAT score 1400)
acceptances (not attendance!)
Yale 11
U. Penn 36
Princeton 7
Harvard 14 (the absolute lowest average to get accepted was a 96.15, with a
1590 SAT)
Dartmouth 39
Cornell 82 (total of all the colleges)
Columbia 46 (total)
Brown 14
Total:
219 acceptances of ~800 students
so the absolute maximum is ~25% of the class at ivy league schools. This is
figuring that not a single person got accepted to more than one ivy
(obviously not true). I know many people that got accepted to 2 or 3 or even
4 ivies!
I would say maybe 15-20% of the class goes off to ivy league schools.
Dalton:
SAT median: around 1330, they don't mention combined. Also, 30% of the class
has mysterious learing disabilities which often give them extra testing
time.
attendances (there were even more acceptances):
Harvard 9
Yale 7
Cornell 5
Dartmouth 6
Penn 6
Columbia 3
Princeton 3
Brown 3
total: 52 of a class of ~150
Zealot
nitewing wrote in message <390c32db....@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>...
I was referring to your constant praising of stuy, as mark does about yale
and new haven.
nitewing
wrote:
>>On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:54:28 -0300, "Zealot" <zea...@onepine.com>
>>wrote:
>>>Mark when he was in High school.
>>>
>>
>>1994-98 bud.
>
>I was referring to your constant praising of stuy, as mark does about yale
>and new haven.
>
Ahh ok.. I thought you were using "mark" as a verb. In any event.. I
take your comment as a gesture of my school pride, something which has
dwindled noticeably amongst current students at the high school (but
then again, I don't think we had that much more self-pride when we
were in high school either.. i guess it's something that comes after
you graduate).
nitewing
wrote:
>
>Stuy has an average combined SAT score of 1400 or so. The top quarter of the class probaby has a 1500 average combined SAT.
>
>here are the college admissions statistics (keep in mind that these are acceptances, and that the class has 800 students)
>College Number
What year are these numbers from? I know some inconsistencies in the
figures if they are from the 1998 graduation class. For e.g. there
were 25 accepted and I know all 20 who enrolled.
Anna Pakman
> bad college, period.
LOL the bottom 25% of my school consider 4 year CUNY's to be reach schools!
---
Anna Pakman
I think you're comparing apples with oranges. It's almost a given that a Dalton
kid is going to come from a family that has lots of $$$ and connections, who is
probably a legacy at some Ivy, who has been groomed by an admissions consultant
from age 5, etc. etc. Stuy is after all a public school and has more
socioeconomic diversity. Many Stuy kids are just as smart, probably even
smarter, than the kids at elite private schools. They just don't have the same
financial resources and social networks available to them.
Greg Dyer
>
> I think you're comparing apples with oranges. It's almost a given that a
Dalton
> kid is going to come from a family that has lots of $$$ and connections,
who is
> probably a legacy at some Ivy, who has been groomed by an admissions
consultant
> from age 5, etc. etc. Stuy is after all a public school and has more
> socioeconomic diversity. Many Stuy kids are just as smart, probably even
> smarter, than the kids at elite private schools. They just don't have the
same
> financial resources and social networks available to them.
>
Yes, he is comparing apples and oranges. And he's doing so because the
apples, who come from trees with less developed root systems, are not
getting the same treatment as the oranges. Why should the apples and
oranges be treated any differently is the question?
Zealot
nitewing wrote in message <390da112...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>...
the class probaby has a 1500 average combined SAT.
>>
>>here are the college admissions statistics (keep in mind that these are
acceptances, and that the class has 800 students)
>>College Number
>
>
>figures if they are from the 1998 graduation class. For e.g. there
>were 25 accepted and I know all 20 who enrolled.
1999 stats
nitewing
<ann...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>I think you're comparing apples with oranges. It's almost a given that a Dalton
>kid is going to come from a family that has lots of $$$ and connections, who is
>probably a legacy at some Ivy, who has been groomed by an admissions consultant
>from age 5, etc. etc. Stuy is after all a public school and has more
>socioeconomic diversity. Many Stuy kids are just as smart, probably even
>smarter, than the kids at elite private schools. They just don't have the same
>financial resources and social networks available to them.
Agreed. The fact that over 90% of Stuy students apply for and receive
financial aid may provide further evidence to your argument.
nitewing
wrote:
>Yes, he is comparing apples and oranges. And he's doing so because the
>apples, who come from trees with less developed root systems, are not
>getting the same treatment as the oranges. Why should the apples and
>oranges be treated any differently is the question?
>
I like watermelons.. anyone else like watermelons?
Sorry, I just got utterly confused by your analogy and lost track of
the argument. But damn, watermelons sure are good!
~Rathin
gy...@my-deja.com
> I like watermelons.. anyone else like watermelons?
Maybe. But I sure like mangoes. Especially the ones here in Mumbai,
had them when you were here ?
They sure are good.
I like mangoes.. anyone else like mangoes?
Maybe we can get a thread going...
Gyan
nitewing
>> I like watermelons.. anyone else like watermelons?
>
> Maybe. But I sure like mangoes. Especially the ones here in Mumbai,
> had them when you were here ?
>
> They sure are good.
>
> I like mangoes.. anyone else like mangoes?
>
> Maybe we can get a thread going...
>
> Gyan
Mangoes.. yummy..
what kind... aphoos or phairee (or batli or lamdya)? Man, what I
wouldn't give for aphoos.. here, we only get mangoes from La Republica
de Mexico. ;\
and now that this thread has degenerated from a discussion of the top
secondary educational institutions to a discussion of watermelons and
mangoes, I say we keep it going! :)
While on a completely different note, where in Mumbai are you at/from
Gyan?
~Rathin
gy...@post.com
>
> Mangoes.. yummy..
>
> what kind... aphoos or phairee (or batli or lamdya)? Man, what I
> wouldn't give for aphoos..
aphoos ANY DAY. I was born during the peak of aphoos season.
> here, we only get mangoes from La Republica de Mexico. ;\
there there, one has to face the tragedies of life.
> While on a completely different note, where in Mumbai are you at/from
> Gyan?
Lokhandwala Complex in Andheri(W)
nitewing
>>
>> Mangoes.. yummy..
>>
>> what kind... aphoos or phairee (or batli or lamdya)? Man, what I
>> wouldn't give for aphoos..
>
> aphoos ANY DAY. I was born during the peak of aphoos season.
>
>> While on a completely different note, where in Mumbai are you at/from
>> Gyan?
>
> Lokhandwala Complex in Andheri(W)
>
> Gyan
>
Cool.. I'm from Beach Candy, right across from tata gardens... go back
there every summer or so since my family still has an apartment there.
Sorry to post that on the newsgroup.. I actually tried emailing you
but for some reason the mail (to gy...@post.com) got bounced back to
me.
gy...@post.com
> Cool.. I'm from Beach Candy, right across from tata gardens... go back
> there every summer or so since my family still has an apartment there.
hey, I used to stay in that area. Khetwadi.
Also studied upto grade II at the Premsons Breach Candy school.
> Sorry to post that on the newsgroup.. I actually tried emailing you
> but for some reason the mail (to gy...@post.com) got bounced back to
> me.
Actually, post.com gets forwarded to yahoo. Search for me at
yahoo.
Gyan
P.S. What time are you on the net ? I reckon its 0330.
Anna Pakman
> know why--legacies? money? bad counselling? It certainly reinforces
> what I've heard from Stuyvesant students, which is that they get
> screwed come admissions time--and reinforces the notion of "feeder
> schools."
What makes the schools feeders are the kinds of people that attend. If my daddy
had, oh let's say... $1 million, lying around that he could donate to X ivy I'm
sure X ivy would take me on the spot, no stats required! I bet if you looked at
the bottom 25% of Ivy graduating classes you'll see a large concentration of kids
whose parents bought their way in just like they did for pre-school,
kindergarten, primary, and secondary school!
AsiaSunset
Legacies make up about 10% of each freshman class, but the average legacy
profile is pretty similar to the general student population.
On Long Island this year, Penn rejected legacies left and right. 1350s, good
grades and a parent who went to Penn (even a contributor) is no longer an
admissions ticket. This kids didn't get in. I suspect the same is true at the
other Ivies.
Anna Pakman
averages...both having equivalent EC's, recs, and community service...neither
minorities...both from a geographically non-diverse place like oh say New York
City...one middle class, the other a millionaire's kid who's offering to buy Penn
a shiny new building...who do you think they would choose?
AsiaSunset wrote:
--
Sarah geld
<<>If Penn had two students they were considering...both with 1300 SATs and
good
>averages...both having equivalent EC's, recs, and community service...neither
>minorities...both from a geographically non-diverse place like oh say New
>York
>City...one middle class, the other a millionaire's kid who's offering to buy
>Penn
>a shiny new building...who do you think they would choose?
I think the answer is neither. In reality, being the child of an alum cares
very little benefit for applicants to the Ivy League. I'd be surprised if
development cases were even as high as 5-10 students in Penn's freshman class.
Parents are a relatively small source of donations at all the ivy league
schools, and there just aren't that many parents who donate more than $1
million in a year. I don't think the schools are selling themselves for
smaller amounts.
rkbose
nitewing <nite...@eticomm.net> wrote in article
<390f15a3....@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>...
> On Mon, 01 May 2000 03:36:55 GMT, gy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> I like watermelons.. anyone else like watermelons?
> >
> > Maybe. But I sure like mangoes. Especially the ones here in Mumbai,
> > had them when you were here ?
> >
> > They sure are good.
> >
> > I like mangoes.. anyone else like mangoes?
> >
> > Maybe we can get a thread going...
> >
> > Gyan
>
> Mangoes.. yummy..
Isn't anyone going to mention lichees (Or lychee-nuts, as they call them
here)? Specially the Dehradun ones with the tiny seeds?
Or the intensely flavorful little green grapes of Bangalore? Haven't seen
those around elsewhere, either.
Rupa
newen...@my-deja.com
please. (You'll have to quote chapter and verse for the claim of 39
Dartmouth acceptances before we'll believe it.) In any event,
Stuyvesant is the principal selective high school in the chief city and
cultural capital of the country, so at the very least it should place
120 or so out of 800 in the Ivy League. And 120 may be a high estimate,
if about 200 Ivy acceptances in the aggregate were distributed at an
average of a couple per recipient. The leading prep schools, with
classes of one-eighth to one-quarter the size of Stuyvesant's,
certainly beat its per capita rate, but their graduates know that it's
bad manners to crow.
newengland
gy...@post.com
> Isn't anyone going to mention lichees (Or lychee-nuts, as they call
> them here)? Specially the Dehradun ones with the tiny seeds?
not me...
> Or the intensely flavorful little green grapes of Bangalore?
hmm, I'll try them.
gyan
nitewing
I believe Joshua got those numbers from a post made by Zealot
regarding 1999 Stuyvesant college admissions stats. That information
is available on Stuyvesant's web site (www.stuy.edu) but requires a
password and is hence only accessible by current Stuyvesant students
(since that is the intended audience for the stats, to help them out)
or recent alumni with an account on Stuyvesant's UNIX/school-wide
network. I was able to therefore get it and have print it out as a
PDF file, but the last column of it got out due to the width of the
page. It's not very important since it just the SAT Math score of the
student with the highest average rejected from a particular school.
The PDF is available at ftp://dropbox:dro...@ftp.rathin.net
And by the way, I recall that when similar stats were posted for my
graduating class (1998), Dartmouth had 45 acceptances from Stuy. But I
won't be able to provide evidence to that effect since.. well.. I
don't know where I would be able to find it now.
~Rathin
nitewing
wrote:
An HTMLversion of that file is also available and it includes that
last column, but not the perty graphics.. ;)
nitewing
<XXjos...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 02 May 2000 15:02:37 GMT, nite...@eticomm.net (nitewing)
>wrote:
>
>>An HTMLversion of that file is also available and it includes that
>>last column, but not the perty graphics.. ;)
>
>Do you have access to matriculation statistics? As it is, it's
>impossible to compare Stuyvesant's rates with those of other schools.
>If I were a Stuyvesant student and my chances were lower than equally
>talented students at other schools, I'd very much want to know why!
No, I wish I did thought. I might try to contact the college
admissions/counseling office and try to compile a list myself. There
was a list circulated my year (1998) of the matriculation data and I
had posted that on this newsgroup a LONG time ago, but I don't have
those numbers with me anymore. But this endeavor will have to take a
backseat to my long-overdue papers and then to my overdue papers and
then to my papers with forthcoming due dates. Damn, I should start
doing some work instead of fucking around here. ;\
~Rathin
Anna Pakman
James Burns wrote:
> On Mon, 01 May 2000 18:41:11 -0400, Anna Pakman
> <ann...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >If Penn had two students they were considering...both with 1300 SATs and good
> >averages...both having equivalent EC's, recs, and community service...neither
> >minorities...both from a geographically non-diverse place like oh say New York
> >City...one middle class, the other a millionaire's kid who's offering to buy Penn
> >a shiny new building...who do you think they would choose?
> >
> The gay one.
LOL and if they were both gay?
nitewing
<ann...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>LOL and if they were both gay?
Now now Anna... let's try to keep this a clean PG-rated discussion. ;)
DCG
>From: Joshua P. Hill XXjos...@mindspring.com
>Date: 5/1/00 21:04 Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <36asgs8d4rejbto5a...@4ax.com>
>
>On 01 May 2000 22:30:12 GMT, asias...@aol.com (AsiaSunset) wrote:
>
>>Anna - at a school like UPenn you are talking about 5- 10 kids in each
>class.
>>Legacies make up about 10% of each freshman class, but the average legacy
>>profile is pretty similar to the general student population.
>>
>>On Long Island this year, Penn rejected legacies left and right. 1350s,
>good
>>grades and a parent who went to Penn (even a contributor) is no longer an
>>admissions ticket. This kids didn't get in. I suspect the same is true at
>the
>>other Ivies.
>
>the Dean of Students, an old classmate, who told him he liked to go to
>bat for the children of alumni. But that was some years back, and
>things change; in his own time, my father had been rejected by
>Swarthmore because he was Jewish
About when did this occur at Swarthmore? In my day (early 70's) I only noticed
a distinct lack of Catholics on campus, no doubt a result of the then-prevalent
tendency of the Roman Catholic Church to "encourage" Catholic students to
attend Catholic colleges.
Several of my convent school classmates indicated their parents were
scandalized that I was even applying to S'more, let alone enrolling!
DCG
Anna Pakman
> with her lesbian mothers in Connecticut.
>
Sheesh! Of course the gay, deaf, blind, mixed black and hispanic inbred female living with
her lesbian adopted mothers in Kansas would get in!
But then we're forgetting that the other girl is a bisexual, comatose, mixed Native
American, black, hispanic, and Armenian orphaned by her divorced Vietnam War Veteran
parents living as a ward of the state of Wyoming living in zip-code less territory.
Zealot
newen...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8env8o$fsn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> Dartmouth accepted 43 and 39 from Stuyvesant in consecutive years?
>Two percent of all Dartmouth admits are from Stuyvesant? One in fifty
>Dartmouth admits is from a single secondary school in the world? At a
>20 percent Dartmouth admit rate, every fourth Stuyvesant senior applied
>to a conservative rural school that's apparently a favorite of liberal
>city slickers? 200 of 800 Stuyvesant seniors wanted Dartmouth? Is there
>now an all-Stuyvesant dorm in Hanover, New Hampshire? The answers to
>these questions are, of course, no, no, no, no, no, and no.
>
> Where did the numbers 43 and 39 come from? Did Dartmouth tell
>Stuyvesant? Does Stuyvesant poll all seniors in fat envelope season?
>Did it get a 100 percent response? Were Stuyvesant seniors honest when
>they answered the poll? Every one of them? How soon after April 1st is
>this feat of polling accomplished?
>
> newengland
These are the official college office statistics, available from the
webpage, 70 students applied to Dartmouth, 39 were accepted. Stuyvesant does
enjoy the love of a few colleges, such as Caltech, Dartmouth and NYU, but
the vast majority hate it.
1st number is how many applied, second is # accepted
Cornell - Agriculture and Life Sciences 30 11
Cornell - Architecture 2 1
Cornell - Arts and Sciences 120 41
Cornell - Engineering 43 14
Cornell - Human Ecology 18 8
Cornell - International Labor Relations 14 7
Dartmouth 70 39
Columbia College 142 29
Columbia Engineering 43 17
Harvard 98 14
NYU 287 157
U. of Pennsylvania 139 36
Yale 73 11
Princeton 41 7
Stanford 32 6
Brown 62 14
and most scary: UC - Berkeley 31 3
This is after the college admissions officers discourage students from
applying to colleges that they think the students are not likely to get into
(although they are often mistaken)
Carey Heckman
>
> Where did the numbers 43 and 39 come from? Did Dartmouth tell
>Stuyvesant? Does Stuyvesant poll all seniors in fat envelope season?
>Did it get a 100 percent response? Were Stuyvesant seniors honest when
>they answered the poll? Every one of them? How soon after April 1st is
>this feat of polling accomplished?
I believe most if not all universities/colleges copy the high school on
admissions decisions in one way or another, although I would not be the least
surprised if this has become yet another ETS (or some other group like
that) function. But the high schools might have to rely on poll data to
know who is attending where.
Even in my comparatively ancient day, my college counselor got a carbon
copy (as I said, comparatively ancient day) of my acceptance letter...she
showed it to me because I refused to believe her when she said I had been
accepted (the original arrived the same day, but I had not been home to
open it yet).
--
Carey Heckman
Stanford Law School
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
c...@stanford.edu http://www-techlaw.stanford.edu
(650) 725-7788 fax: (650) 725-1861
Carey Heckman
>Zealot responded to my disbelieving post about Dartmouth-the-gut-for-
>Stuyvesant: Brown accepted 23% for the class of 2003, Columbia (The
>College) 20%, Cornell (Arts and Sciences) 34%, DARTMOUTH 56% (!!!),
>Harvard 14%, Penn 26%, Princeton 17%, Stanford 19%, and Yale 15%.
>Zealot adds that the Stuyvesant "college admissions officers discourage
>students from applying to colleges that they think the students are not
>real interest of this lies in the anomalous Dartmouth rate. Our
>suspicions are borne out that The Green is having to cultivate feeders
>again to re-raise its profile in strategic secondary schools. Thirty
>years ago Brown did the same with Andover, Exeter, Choate, and St.
>Paul's and it was upward and onward from there. Enjoy it while it
>lasts, Stuyvesant.
No, his self-worship Dartmouth's admissions director hates feeder schools and
the concept of feeder schools. My counter-theory/speculation is that Stuy
offers a combination of high stats and ethnic minorities that Karl finds
too juicy to pass up.
Of course the big unknown with these stats has to do with the qualifications
of those who applied. If the top 30 students at Stuy applied to Dartmouth
but distributed among the other Ivies, newengland shouldn't be surprised at
the acceptance percentage disparity. I'm not saying this happened, only that
we don't have enough information to make a good guess.
Carey Heckman
Yeechang Lee <yl...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>ObCollege: I'll very soon be relocating to the Palo Alto/Menlo Park
>area, near Stanford. Stanford is among a relatively few top schools
>with a single undergraduate student body for its liberal arts and
>engineering programs, without a separate admissions procedure either
>before or after matriculation. [1] It is, also, probably the only one
>where the engineering program is one of the nation's very best, and
>where engineering majors are among the school's most popular.
>
>My questions: a) Should more top schools be like Stanford in this
>respect? b) *Can* other schools be more like Stanford? What makes
>Stanford different?
>
>[1] Others offhand include Harvard, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth, and
>Swarthmore. Cornell, Penn, Columbia, and Duke all have separate
>engineering schools; Princeton has a single undergraduate body but
>freshmen matriculate as engineers or non-engineers.
At least with respect to the non-Stanford schools, I suggest it's because
they consider and teach engineering as part of a liberal arts curriculum
rather than something outside of that. That also may explain why their
programs compare poorly against those engineering schools more focused
on technical/professional training.
BTW, keep in mind that Stanford includes computer science in its
School of Engineering. As I understand it, computer science is the only
School of Engineering department without a declining number of majors.
newen...@my-deja.com
Two percent of all Dartmouth admits are from Stuyvesant? One in fifty
Dartmouth admits is from a single secondary school in the world? At a
20 percent Dartmouth admit rate, every fourth Stuyvesant senior applied
to a conservative rural school that's apparently a favorite of liberal
city slickers? 200 of 800 Stuyvesant seniors wanted Dartmouth? Is there
now an all-Stuyvesant dorm in Hanover, New Hampshire? The answers to
these questions are, of course, no, no, no, no, no, and no.
Where did the numbers 43 and 39 come from? Did Dartmouth tell
Stuyvesant? Does Stuyvesant poll all seniors in fat envelope season?
Did it get a 100 percent response? Were Stuyvesant seniors honest when
they answered the poll? Every one of them? How soon after April 1st is
this feat of polling accomplished?
newengland
nitewing
<XXjos...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>James Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <ann...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >If Penn had two students they were considering...both with 1300 SATs and good
>>>>> >averages...both having equivalent EC's, recs, and community service...neither
>>>>> >minorities...both from a geographically non-diverse place like oh say New York
>>>>> >City...one middle class, the other a millionaire's kid who's offering to buy Penn
>>>>> >a shiny new building...who do you think they would choose?
>>>>> >
>>>>> The gay one.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>But the other was gay, deaf, a mixed black and hispanic female, living
>>with her lesbian mothers in Connecticut.
>>
>
>Only if she was herself a lesbian mother . . .
Of course, that too a single mother..
nitewing
> Dartmouth accepted 43 and 39 from Stuyvesant in consecutive years?
>Two percent of all Dartmouth admits are from Stuyvesant? One in fifty
>Dartmouth admits is from a single secondary school in the world? At a
>20 percent Dartmouth admit rate, every fourth Stuyvesant senior applied
>to a conservative rural school that's apparently a favorite of liberal
>city slickers? 200 of 800 Stuyvesant seniors wanted Dartmouth? Is there
>now an all-Stuyvesant dorm in Hanover, New Hampshire? The answers to
>these questions are, of course, no, no, no, no, no, and no.
>
The admit rate among Stuyvesant students is not 20% at Dartmouth..
according to the data, 39 of the 70 students who applied were accepted
in 1999, making the admit rate 55.7%. As I said, my year there were 45
students accepted and I am not sure how many matriculated, though I do
know at least 25-30 people off the top of my head who are there and I
am sure I can think of a few more given the time... also, on the
alumni mailing list, there are an equal number of people who have
listed their dartmouth email addresses.
> Where did the numbers 43 and 39 come from? Did Dartmouth tell
>Stuyvesant? Does Stuyvesant poll all seniors in fat envelope season?
>Did it get a 100 percent response? Were Stuyvesant seniors honest when
>they answered the poll? Every one of them? How soon after April 1st is
>this feat of polling accomplished?
>
> newengland
>
The answers to the latter set of questions are: from Stuyvesant's
college office, yes, yes, yes, hopefully, soon enough.
newen...@my-deja.com
Stuyvesant: Brown accepted 23% for the class of 2003, Columbia (The
College) 20%, Cornell (Arts and Sciences) 34%, DARTMOUTH 56% (!!!),
Harvard 14%, Penn 26%, Princeton 17%, Stanford 19%, and Yale 15%.
Zealot adds that the Stuyvesant "college admissions officers discourage
students from applying to colleges that they think the students are not
likely to get into," so these admit rates are skewed upward. But the
real interest of this lies in the anomalous Dartmouth rate. Our
suspicions are borne out that The Green is having to cultivate feeders
again to re-raise its profile in strategic secondary schools. Thirty
years ago Brown did the same with Andover, Exeter, Choate, and St.
Paul's and it was upward and onward from there. Enjoy it while it
lasts, Stuyvesant.
newengland
Yeechang Lee
> Dartmouth accepted 43 and 39 from Stuyvesant in consecutive years?
> Two percent of all Dartmouth admits are from Stuyvesant? One in
> fifty Dartmouth admits is from a single secondary school in the
> world?
nitewing <nite...@eticomm.net> then wrote:
> The admit rate among Stuyvesant students is not 20% at Dartmouth..
> according to the data, 39 of the 70 students who applied were
> accepted in 1999, making the admit rate 55.7%.
That noise you hear is newengland's head exploding.
ObCollege: I'll very soon be relocating to the Palo Alto/Menlo Park
area, near Stanford. Stanford is among a relatively few top schools
with a single undergraduate student body for its liberal arts and
engineering programs, without a separate admissions procedure either
before or after matriculation. [1] It is, also, probably the only one
where the engineering program is one of the nation's very best, and
where engineering majors are among the school's most popular.
My questions: a) Should more top schools be like Stanford in this
respect? b) *Can* other schools be more like Stanford? What makes
Stanford different?
[1] Others offhand include Harvard, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth, and
Swarthmore. Cornell, Penn, Columbia, and Duke all have separate
engineering schools; Princeton has a single undergraduate body but
freshmen matriculate as engineers or non-engineers.
--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/>
Zealot
newen...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8eoa6t$r9e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Interesting thing about Stanford...
The lowest average of a student accepted their was a 95.71 (Almost 96, or
basically 4.00 at any other school), and it was backed up by a perfect 1600
SAT score. That was the LOWEST that got in.
If you ask me, highschool students don't need all this pressure, it's
extremely unhealthy.
nitewing
> Stanford is among a relatively few top schools
>with a single undergraduate student body for its liberal arts and
>engineering programs, without a separate admissions procedure either
>before or after matriculation. [1] It is, also, probably the only one
>where the engineering program is one of the nation's very best, and
>where engineering majors are among the school's most popular.
>
>My questions: a) Should more top schools be like Stanford in this
>respect? b) *Can* other schools be more like Stanford? What makes
>Stanford different?
>
>[1] Others offhand include Harvard, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth, and
>Swarthmore. Cornell, Penn, Columbia, and Duke all have separate
>engineering schools; Princeton has a single undergraduate body but
>freshmen matriculate as engineers or non-engineers.
...and Princeton also has a slightly different criteria or admissions
basis for selecting engineering applicants than non-engineering
applicants. Students wishing to matriculate as engineers have to fill
out an extra form with additional essays and all that jazz. I am not
sure, but does Stanford also have a similar procedure or it a common
application procedure?
~Rathin
DCG
>Message-id: <1nrugs0899ej83ldq...@4ax.com>
>
>On 02 May 2000 22:26:56 GMT, oldwil...@aol.com (DCG) wrote:
>
>>About when did this occur at Swarthmore? In my day (early 70's) I only
>noticed
>>a distinct lack of Catholics on campus, no doubt a result of the
>then-prevalent
>>tendency of the Roman Catholic Church to "encourage" Catholic students to
>>attend Catholic colleges.
>>
>>Several of my convent school classmates indicated their parents were
>>scandalized that I was even applying to S'more, let alone enrolling!
>
>reasons not related to his academic qualifications.
I am trying to pinpoint the period in which these kinds of quotas came to an
end -- was it in the late 50s?
DCG
Gabriel Desjardins
: I'm not much in favor of undergraduate professional education. It
: seems to me that engineering should be taught at the graduate level,
: if for no other reason than that it would confer greater status on
: engieners. In practice, that would include a pre-engineering
: curriculum, with emphasis on mathematical and scientific tools.
It used to be like that. Engineering schools in North America followed the
Thayer model, which had two years of brutally difficult and irrelevant math
and science courses. This was intended to weed out the "morally weak". The
third and fourth years of the program were much more practical and generally
ignored the prior math and physics foundation.
Almost no one follows this curriculum anymore, except the GRE Engineering test
and possibly some of the military academies.
The biggest problem with this curriculum is that it is almost totally devoid
of creativity. We had what amounted to a one-year pre-engineering program in
college and I don't think anything could have destroyed our interest in
engineering more than it did.
Queen's started a one-semester project course for frosh in 1997 and now has a
two-semester course that replaces all of the labs that used to be run by the
Physics and Chemistry departments. I was a TA for the course - I had my
students designing circuits, building antennas and playing with all kinds of
wireless equipment - first year students with no engineering background who've
never held a job. Some students even designed and fabbed some digital circuits.
Normally you don't get to do this kind of stuff until you're in fourth year (or
third year if you're lucky). By that time most people are so weary of the
required classes that engineering isn't fun anymore.
Most of the EE grad students I know who came in with a Math or Physics
background aren't all that interested in EE. for the most part, they do math
or physics work that just happens to be in an Electrical Engineering
department. One of my housemates has an undergraduate degree in math - he
dropped out of school to work at a dot.com before the end of his second
semester. No matter how long he spent here, he would never have been an
Electrical Engineer - he's never seen a transistor or used test equipment. He
didn't know what this damned 'j' thing was that they kept talking about in
Signals and Systems.
DCG
>extremely unhealthy.
>
I agree. And somewhere along the line, students are learning the wrong lesson
about what is truly of value in life.
However, many of these young people are misled by the "hype". After all, 99
percent of everything often seems to be hype. In this case, the notion that
the "American dream" can only be attained with an Ivy League education.
Maybe we should be examining exactly what that "dream" is, is it worth
pursuing, and how does one best attain it without compromising greater values?
DCG
KSG
of a
>: standard four-year liberal arts education in any major with a
>: requirement for the math and physics courses that engineers
have to
>: attend anyway, followed by a two year (master's) or three
year (PhD)
>: engineering sequence.
Engineering curriculums already do this. Engineering is
essentially a five-year program jammed into four years with
essentially all the course work of a liberal-arts major with
engineering on top.
KSG
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Gabriel Desjardins
: Interesting. I was thinking of something more along the lines of a
: standard four-year liberal arts education in any major with a
: requirement for the math and physics courses that engineers have to
: attend anyway, followed by a two year (master's) or three year (PhD)
: engineering sequence.
Math and Physics do not an engineer make. Engineering disciplines are far
too specific for this to be practical.
For example, there really isn't a set of math and physics courses that an
electrical engineer should take. People interested in Fibre Optics and
Microwaves often take Vector Calculus, Diff. Eqs., PDEs and Numerical
Methods, along with rigourous electromagnetics classes. Communications and
Signal Processing people would take Complex Analysis and Signals and Systems
classes, and few, if any, physics classes. Circuits people generally need
little math beyond basic Differential Equations and Laplace Transforms, and
would be more inclined to take semiconductor physics courses. People who
work with microprocessors rarely have to do anything more than simple
arithmetic and don't tend to take very many math or physics classes (or so it
seems).
If you only took the math and physics requirements for all possible programs
and then took two years of graduate courses (that's more than you need for
a Master's right now) then you'd be very narrowly focused in one area of
a particular engineering discipline.
Basically, instead of having a broad engineering background, you'd have a set
of disconnected applied math and physics courses that really weren't intended
to support your graduate studies.
: But perhaps offering an engineering major in a
: four year liberal arts institution would make more sense; a one or two
: year MS/PhD would be required for employment. The BA/MS sequence
: wouldn't be all that different from current 3/2 programs, but it would
: give students a degree more appropriate to their qualifications.
I'm skeptical. This sounds like one of those old-school programs where every
single engineer spent a year taking basic math and science, then took thermo,
fluids, statics, circuits, diff. eqs. and operated a drill press for 2nd year.
I've met very few engineers who wanted to take a program like that. It seems
restrictive. The really innovative engineering schools make students work on
as many practical projects as possible and don't worry as much about
hammering home some ill-conceived math courses taught by people who aren't
engineers.
Yeechang Lee
> ...and Princeton also has a slightly different criteria or admissions
> basis for selecting engineering applicants than non-engineering
> applicants. Students wishing to matriculate as engineers have to fill
> out an extra form with additional essays and all that jazz. I am not
> sure, but does Stanford also have a similar procedure or it a common
> application procedure?
No. At Stanford, the engineering programs (while located in a separate
"school") can be chosen by any student.
Yeechang, who was surprised to learn there's at least one Columbia
liberal arts major that isn't open to all. Anyone want to guess?
--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/>
nitewing
<XXjos...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>But without the recognition. Students in the most trivial subjects
>receive master's degrees, while an engineer gets a BS. I'm thinking
>about schemes that give engineers recognition for what they're already
>doing. Not sure about the best way to pull it off, though.
A lot of school do have an option 4-year (or maybe even a 5-year)
engineering masters (MEng) program, whereby students graduate with a
bachelors and the masters degrees. MIT, Cornell, Caltech, Harvey Mudd,
and countless others, provide such programs.
In terms of your earlier post(s) regarding changing the format of
engineering education such that they have 4 years liberal-arts type of
background for undergraduate and then "professional" training so that
they are on the same educational "standing" as their counterparts in
medicine or management, I would think that most engineers would take
up issue with that. The "prestige" factor is, I think, only trivial.
Engineering is a professionally-driven discipline (as opposed to one
such as say comparative literature, which is purely an academic one).
Engineers want to go out in the real world to apply themselves and
work on new and cool things. That's where the excitement is. Of
course, many of them apply themselves towards new and cool things in
the academic sense. They're called engineering professors. ;) Most,
however, are not academically oriented (and I am not saying this with
*any* negative denotation at all).. it pays less and often, that's not
where a lot of technology research goes on anyway. Lengthening the
educational career for engineers requiring them to a have a doctorate
would only prolong this and I don't think is what most engineers would
want. A lot of engineers do get a masters (MEng or MS) before entering
the job market, but most of the times that's so they have an upper
hand in the job market amongst their peers.
And it makes sense from an educational perspective as well. Most of
the learning process in engineering faculty is obtained through
real-world experience not in classes. Yes, you may learn the details
of circuit-design in a class or the theoretic components of VLSI
design or the application of vector-calculus and matrix-algebra in
graphics programming or how to account for resonance factors or
dampening in building a brige. But you won't get actual first-hand
knowledge and experience unless you work actively in the field. Maybe
that's why there is a trend nowadays in engineering faculties (esp.
CS, EE) to have real-world experience. There are a lot of CS
professors who have worked with Microsoft or IBM or whatever have you.
The inculcation of the real-world experience in engineering program is
I think crucial. There is a little wonder why many engineering schools
emphasize taking a semester off to work at a company during your
undergraduate education (co-op). I know that here, there is a huge
push for coop in the engineering school. A lot of my friends who are
engineers will be taking a term of next semester and working with
various companies (IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Compaq, and a crapload
else), and they all feel that they will all the better for it... from
an educational and an experience (and job-market) standpoint.
Rathin
newen...@my-deja.com
exploding."
You got that right. But my favorite time to post is when I'm quite
certain I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
bjf...@webtv.net
Have a Happy Day
lyd...@my-deja.com
I am a junior at the Northfield Mount Hermon School, in Northfield,Mass.
On Friday I attended the spring college fair at nearby Deerfield
Academy, usually considered a pretty elite boarding school. The only
Ivy that attended was Penn....thought that was pretty interesting.
~Lydia
Nick Vlku
the NATIONAL championships for the PAST three years. I'd be amazed if
Murrow captures the throne this year since it's been awhile since
they've held it.
Murrow is a great school however, just not one would call a "feeder"
school.
-Nick
On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:30:00 -0400, Anna Pakman
<ann...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Yes, Murrow is indeed another good school and sometimes perhaps
>> underrated. I wouldn't classify it as a "feeder" school, but
>> definitely a very good school.
>
>Never said it was :)
>
>> It is also known for its ability to
>> produce some really good drama/theater talent. Regarding chess though,
>> Stuyvesant was the national champ for the last three or so years
>> (check the Stuy chess club's site for exact specs).
>
>...and Murrow was the national champ for 3 or so years also... I believe 91,
>92, 94 (??), anyway I'm sure they'll win this year cuz Irina Krush is on the
>team and she's like the female world champion or sth
>
>--
>Anna Pakman
>Stern School of Business Class of 2004
>------------
>Come visit the alt.music.celine-dion
>Members Site at
>http://come.to/alt.music.celine-dion
>
>
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Anna Pakman
newen...@my-deja.com
Northfield, Mass. On Friday I attended the spring college fair at
nearby Deerfield Academy, usually considered a pretty elite boarding
interesting."
NMH is a pretty elite school, too, Lydia. I drove past your lovely
green campus yesterday.
It always gladdens my heart to hear condescending things said of
Deerfield, the archrival.
newengland
Sarah geld
>It always gladdens my heart to hear condescending things said of
>Deerfield, the archrival.
What about that other school in Wallingford, CT? Isn't that your alma mater,
as well as Deerfield's true competitor?
newen...@my-deja.com
of Deerfield, the archrival."
And Sarah Geld wrote: "What about that other school in Wallingford, CT?
Isn't that your alma mater, as well as Deerfield's true competitor?"
I can't remember having confessed it here. My time there dates
from the days when we were compulsorily bussed en masse up to Deerfield
and then required to salute Frank Boyden (in his golf cart) while the
Greenies saluted Seymour St. John. Coat and tie, of course, and other
formalities. Quinnipiac - eeyak - eeyak ...
It's a wonderful rivalry and long may it last.