Which Colleges to Apply
Phlegethon
But if college selection was today can anyone give me a recommendation
on which ones to apply to? I'm looking to major in finance and work on
Wall Street as either a stock analyst or financial consultant. I am
considering colleges in both the United States and Canada.
State: New Jersey
SAT Math: 780 (Country: Top 1%, State: Top 2%)
Verbal: 700 (Country: Top 5%, State: Top 5%)
Writing: 610 (No data because its a new section)
GPA: 3.65 - 3.7
Class Rank: 85 Percentile
I can secure recommendations from a MIT millionaire who's worked on
Wall Street for about ten years, and also one from a Columbia
University business professor.
Hank Murphy
seem good, but not in the exceptional category that the top ten demand. My
suggestions:
1. Columbia, due to the recommendation, although it's a reach.
2. NYU. Decent Wall Street connections and a little more accessible, I
think.
3. Rutgers as a respectable safety.
You could add in the Ivy schools usually in the top ten lists, but without
any direct experience, I don't know if that would be good advice or not.
You need to seek out local advice, I think. I'd suggest adding Wharton with
the expectation that it's a reach.
I'd also suggest that you consider some less-stellar but still respectable
names, e.g. Penn State, Boston College, perhaps UMass.
I believe the Wall Street Journal published a book rating business schools,
using ratings provided by recruiters who visited the schools. This was
oriented towards MBA programs, but the insight may still be worth the time
and expense to track down that book.
If Wall Street access is at the top of your lists, some of the universities
in New York City might be worth a look, e.g. Pace. I don't know if they
will command the $100K plus starting salaries, but it's likely that some of
your instructors will be actually working at the firms where you want to be
hired.
However...you don't mention if you are only contemplating a bachelor's, or
planning on getting an MBA. In the latter case, I'd lean towards Rutgers
and hope for a home run in your grad school applications four years from
now. The in-state tuition rates will keep you and your family more able to
deal with grad school, and it's a lot cheaper if you should change your
mind.
Also, there are some openings for quantitative analysts, don't know if that
is of interest or not. The background for one whom I know was math as an
undergrad, then a special program at Columbia.
I wish Abe was still here, as he is much more in tune with that area than
anyone else I know from this NG.
Good luck, and let us know how things turn out next year,
Speaking only for myself,
Hank Murphy
Janet Puistonen
it will be easier if you go to a name East Coast undergrad school, the
bigger the name the better. Same thing with business school, should you
choose to go before seeking a job. Think Ivy. Or top liberal arts schools
like Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin, Wellesley (if you are a female). Or MIT or
the like. At least that's the way it has been.
Janet Puistonen
I wouldn't go with PACE. The secretaries might go to PACE, but not the
investment bankers or analysts. I think that Rutgers followed by a Wharton
or Columbia level MBA is a reasonable route, although Ivy/Ivy or the
equivalent is always going to be an easier sell.
(My spouse worked in finance in NYC, at places including Moody's. And I've
known a lot of people who worked for Merrill Lynch, Morgan, et al. But we
haven't been in that scene for 10 yrs.)
John
> SAT Math: 780 (Country: Top 1%, State: Top 2%)
> Verbal: 700 (Country: Top 5%, State: Top 5%)
> Writing: 610 (No data because its a new section)
>
> GPA: 3.65 - 3.7
> Class Rank: 85 Percentile
>
Unless it is about the best high school in the country, your class rank is a
problem. The top schools don't accept many students from the 85% even with
your SATs.
But it matters where your grades are. If you are looking for finance, it
might be okay if your math scores are solid but can't speak French to save
your life.
Other activities are very important, especially with your unbalanced stats.
Any activities to be proud of? Perhaps you spend all your time feeding the
homeless, so you have no time to study?
> I can secure recommendations from a MIT millionaire who's worked on
> Wall Street for about ten years, and also one from a Columbia
> University business professor.
>
Every college info session says they don't care who the recommendation is
from; the important thing is that they know you and can compare you to
others.
Unless you know they guys really well, they will not be good people to use
for recommendations. (Unless maybe the MIT grad donated a building...)
Janet Puistonen
>> SAT Math: 780 (Country: Top 1%, State: Top 2%)
>> Verbal: 700 (Country: Top 5%, State: Top 5%)
>> Writing: 610 (No data because its a new section)
>>
> Great SATs
>
>> GPA: 3.65 - 3.7
>> Class Rank: 85 Percentile
>>
> Unless it is about the best high school in the country, your class
> rank is a problem. The top schools don't accept many students from
> the 85% even with your SATs.
> But it matters where your grades are. If you are looking for
> finance, it might be okay if your math scores are solid but can't
> speak French to save your life.
Doesn't it also matter what kind of classes the grades are in? I keep
reading that top schools expect to see you taking the highest level courses
available at your school. So if you are taking X, and your school offers AP
X, that had better be what you take.
John
"Janet Puistonen" <box...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Ooone.11975$zb.8854@trndny01...
chance getting in a top school.
As a practical matter, if someone avoided the toughest courses in high
school, how will they handle college courses? No point getting in if you
can't stay in!
Yeechang Lee
> If you want to get into finance with a Goldman Sachs-type firm in
> New York, it will be easier if you go to a name East Coast undergrad
> school, the bigger the name the better.
That's my cue. I joined a well-known investment bank out of college
and am now working for another well-known investment bank, and also a
longtime (though lately infrequent) SCA poster. I even work in equity
research, which is basically what the original poster was describing.
Here's how the undergraduate colleges stack up regarding investment
banking/Wall Street hiring, in my experience, in order:
* The Ivies, plus Stanford (on the West coast), Duke, and MIT.
* Stanford (outside the West coast), Amherst, and Williams.
* NYU, Virginia, Michigan, Berkeley (on the West coast), and Wellesley.
* Berkeley (outside the West coast), Texas, UCLA (on the West coast),
perhaps Wisconsin and Middlebury.
* Everywhere else.
(Note the omissions above. Caltech, Chicago, and Swarthmore are three
outstanding schools with remarkably small Wall Street presence. Hank
Murphy--another longtime poster--offers sagacious advice in many areas
but is way off here; Rutgers isn't even on the map recruitingwise.)
Here's what I posted a few years back about the analysts' (lowest
level) and associates' (next highest level) educational backgrounds at
the Silicon Valley office of my first investment bank, slightly
emended:
Chemical Engineering, Berkeley; JD, Stanford
Economics, Brown
Economics/Political Science, Claremont McKenna
History/Spanish, Columbia (waves hand)
Political Science (or is it History? not sure), Georgetown
Mining Engineering, Oxford; MBA, Stanford
Economics/Political Science (Huntsman Scholar), Penn
Economics, Princeton
Economics/CS, Stanford
Biology, Stanford
Economics, Yale
EECS/English, MIT
Phlegethon, I agree with the other posters that, assuming you have the
typical background (some extracurriculars, perhaps a sport), the odds
of your making a school in the first two tiers aren't very
high. However, NYU and Michigan both seem perfectly reasonably
shots. You'll almost certainly have to attend NYU Stern or Michigan's
BBA program in order to have a realistic shot at investment banking,
while it's not nearly so important to do Course 15 at MIT or Wharton
at Penn in order to be hired from them (although Wharton does help).
Note that there are many paths to get to Wall Street and many of them
don't start directly out a bachelor's degree. McKinsey, Bain and BCG,
the superelite consulting firms, hire not just from the top two tiers
(Although it helps!) but from quality regional schools across the
country, including BYU, Colorado, or Illinois. The Big 4
accounting/consulting firms and the likes of P&G or GE's entry-level
management programs cast an even broader net. From such a base it's
entirely possible to go off to a top business school and then Wall
Street.
The recommendations won't mean a thing unless those people know you
and your abilities well. Family friends, neighbors, and
babysitting/lawn mowing clients don't count.
--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/> PERTH ----> *
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Hank Murphy
<snip>
> (Note the omissions above. Caltech, Chicago, and Swarthmore are three
> outstanding schools with remarkably small Wall Street presence. Hank
> Murphy--another longtime poster--offers sagacious advice in many areas
> but is way off here; Rutgers isn't even on the map recruitingwise.)
Thank you for your kind words, as well as for your insight in this area. I
did not mean to suggest that Rutgers was in the same league as some of the
other schools listed. Rather, I was looking at what the original poster's
options would be in today's environment. To be candid, the OP does not seem
to have a very good chance in any of the top schools you list later in your
post. I only suggested Columbia due to the reference, and that's a reach at
best.
Due to geography, NYU may represent the best alternative, but admissions
there are getting more competitive too. So...if the very top schools are in
all likelihood not a possibility, and NYU not a guaranteed admit, what would
be a reasonable safety school for this applicant? Not being combative, just
asking. I think that Michigan will be more competitive and is a longer shot
than NYU, but that's just my opinion, unsupported by facts.
The OP also has not discussed finances. My thought was that Rutgers, with
in-state tuition, followed by a top name MBA program, might be a better and
more affordable shot at the Wall Street brass ring than a series of
rejection letters from the best colleges in the country.
But then, we are probably reading different things into the OP's situation.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts,
Hank Murphy
speaking only for myself
harry
"> I'm looking to major in finance and work on
> Wall Street as either a stock analyst or financial consultant. I am
> considering colleges in both the United States and Canada.
>
> State: New Jersey
>
> SAT Math: 780 (Country: Top 1%, State: Top 2%)
> Verbal: 700 (Country: Top 5%, State: Top 5%)
>
Sat's 1480 are impressive and you should be proud - but you will find a
significant number of other 1400's and 1500's out there looking at the same
seat in college.
Is there anything that makes you special - you need to make sure the
colleges know that interest. Class office? Sports captain? Awards? They will
help differentiate yourself.
You need to market yourself to top schools as the fight for a seat is far
greater than imagined. I know of rejections from Georgetown, Norte Dame, U
Michigan, UPenn etc from students with 1550 or better, and I know of
acceptances at the same schools with scores 100 points lower.
I know of numerous rating services and every school is highly rated
somewhere, but per US News for undergraduate for Finance they list UPenn,
BYU, U Mich,UCal Berkley, MIT as the top 5. Some other highly rated finance
schools but also highly rated colleges in general include UNC, Carnegie,
UVA, USC and UWisc.
Both of my sons went the finance route and looked at Wake Forest, Emory,
Georgetown, Duke, UCLA in addition to some of the others mentioned, and
settled on Wake Forest (5 year program) and Georgia Tech (but taking
engineering instead).
Each class is finding it harder to get in as the number of applications are
increasing by a significant number. Some colleges are up 30 - 40% in last
two years, which has moved the SAT score my 75 to 100 points over a three
year comparison. That changes the demographics but also means that schools
must use 'numbers' like class rank and SAT's to screen out the applicant
pool.
All major schools will stress taking the hardest possible HS courses
possible. They will also say a B in an advanced is better than an A in
honors or regular. I found in my sons case the you need both the advanced
and the A for the best schools - because they can demand that from the
applicant pool.
Regardless - start marketing yourself so you can stand out in a crowd.
ed
Yeechang Lee
> Here's how the undergraduate colleges stack up regarding investment
> banking/Wall Street hiring, in my experience, in order:
>
> * The Ivies, plus Stanford (on the West coast), Duke, and MIT.
> * Stanford (outside the West coast), Amherst, and Williams.
It's entirely possible that Duke and Stanford-outside-California ought
to be swapped here, but I'm still leaning against it. I omitted
Georgetown from the second tier.
> * Berkeley (outside the West coast), Texas, UCLA (on the West coast),
> perhaps Wisconsin and Middlebury.
Boston College and (probably) Notre Dame) also deserve to appear here.
--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/> PERTH ----> *
Cpu(s): 2.0% us, 1.0% sy, 0.3% ni, 95.3% id, 1.4% wa, 0.1% hi, 0.0% si
Mem: 515800k total, 449540k used, 66260k free, 88000k buffers
Swap: 3052208k total, 240k used, 3051968k free, 151172k cached
Phlegethon
Phlegethon
honors and APs. Do schools look at what classes you take?
Phlegethon
on the chess team, there's quite a few awards for that. I also have
work experience for a local company for about three years now.