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an5...@anon.penet.fi

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Dec 28, 1993, 12:51:18 AM12/28/93
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do most guys swallow the come when they give blowjobs to other guys?
i'm 18 years old and i'm new to the gay scene and to the internet.
i've been reading about this other guy's struggle with his sexuality
(gay fantasies when masturbating) and i can relate to him totally.
i'm very curious at this time to find out whether guys actually swallow
come when the give blowjobs. can you get aids from giving blowjobs?

i also read that some guys like to give rimjobs. can you get aids from
rimjobs? do the guy receiving the rimjob wash the anus with soap and
water before letting the other guy give the rimjob? i think you can get
salmonella from eating fecal matter. can the guy receiving the rimjob
actually come (experience an orgasm) from getting rimmed? how long does
one give a rimjob before he gets tired of it? can the guy giving the
rimjob come from giving the rimjob?

please pardon me for asking these stupid questions. i'm 18 years old
and i'm still a virgin. i haven't had sex with a guy or a girl in my
life so i'm very naive in this area. i would like to have sex with a
guy but i'm too shy to ask.

i'm attracted to this guy who works out with me in the gym.
he's also 18 years old and he told me he's gay. i am a freshman in
economics at princeton university. if you go to princeton, please
send me e-mail. i would like to meet more people who are unsure of
their sexuality. it's really lonely being confused and a freshman far
away from home (i lived in portland, oregon all my life and i got this
scholarship to study in princeton). i was introduced to the internet
by my friend who reads this newsgroup all the time.

thank you for answering all my questions.

chris barrett '97

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Ryan Alexander (BMEC)

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Dec 28, 1993, 3:15:14 AM12/28/93
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In article <055328Z...@anon.penet.fi> an5...@anon.penet.fi writes:
>do most guys swallow the come when they give blowjobs to other guys?

<lots of stuff involving unsafe sex deleted>

>please pardon me for asking these stupid questions. i'm 18 years old
>and i'm still a virgin. i haven't had sex with a guy or a girl in my
>life so i'm very naive in this area. i would like to have sex with a
>guy but i'm too shy to ask.
>
>i'm attracted to this guy who works out with me in the gym.
>he's also 18 years old and he told me he's gay. i am a freshman in
>economics at princeton university. if you go to princeton, please
>send me e-mail. i would like to meet more people who are unsure of
>their sexuality. it's really lonely being confused and a freshman far
>away from home (i lived in portland, oregon all my life and i got this
>scholarship to study in princeton). i was introduced to the internet
>by my friend who reads this newsgroup all the time.
>
>thank you for answering all my questions.
>
>chris barrett '97
>

If this is real, please, *please*, call the national AIDS hotline,
the number is 1-800-342-AIDS. And don't do *anything* without latex,
we really don't want to lose you. I would tender advice, but I don't
feel comfortably knowledagable about everything you named. These folks
will know.

If this is not real, then you are a true bastard for painting a
picture of the opening scene to something too many of us have had to
live with and through in people we care about, expecially just for the
sake of some joke.

|RNA (DNA's bad-ass sidekick) / "Decency?! I am a pirate!
|Internet:r...@lenti.med.umn.edu / I don't *do* 'decency'!
| / - Don Carnage

Keith J. Farmer

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Dec 28, 1993, 3:09:43 AM12/28/93
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Hey, Chris Barret '97...

Enjoy being away from home -- more freedom, and you can be yourself, without an
inquisitive relative watching over your shoulder.

Enjoy your virginity... after having sex a few dozen times (with a woman, that
is -- I've yet to sleep with a man), it loses its novelty, unless by luck you
find Mr/Ms Right (or Mr. Lefty in my case ;). The fun, my friend, is in *losing*
the virgin status, which I have managed to regain *pout*.

Enjoy Princeton... I come from Centralia, just 90 miles north on I-5, and can
sympathize with a relatively sheltered (?) life. I ended up turning down my
Merit Scholarship to Chicago, and now do to po-dunk Washington State U, where
the greeks are drunk and the sheep are scared (or is that U Washington? ;).

I can't particularly answer your questions, since I am fairly in the dark, and
not In-The-Know <tm> on that subject (Conan, take me away!), but enjoy finding
out.. ;)

Keith J. Farmer
Class of '95 ('96 by the time a graduate :P)
Wazzu

Gauthier Marc

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Dec 28, 1993, 4:47:11 AM12/28/93
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r...@lenti.med.umn.edu (Ryan Alexander (BMEC)) writes:
> If this is real, please, *please*, call the national AIDS hotline,
>the number is 1-800-342-AIDS. And don't do *anything* without latex,

The last time I saw my doctor and got tested for the HIV virus,
he told me that swallowing sperm wasn't really a vector in the propagation
of AIDS.
I've also read that Canadian Health Officials consider oral sex to
be relatively safe while American ones regarded it as dangerous as anal
intercourse.
Does anyone have any type of feedback on the difference between the
two countries (if it exists) and what are the facts?

Thanks.


Marc


--
______________________________________________________________________________
/- o o -\ __ "On est ce qu'on peut mais on sent ce qu'on est "__-Stendhal
.: () :. __\/ Feel free to email me at gau...@ERE.UMontreal.ca \/__
___~UU~_____\/___________________(_Marc_Gauthier_)__________________\/________

Nicolle Green

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Dec 28, 1993, 11:49:09 AM12/28/93
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I am afraid I can't tell you if guys swallow or about rim jobs (I'm female
and have never given a rim job before.) I will tell you the virginity is not
something that should be given easily. I wouldn't mind having mine back.
(but I sure am having fun now:-)) I always use condoms when giving blow jobs
and I suspect dental dams would work for rim jobs.

Cowgirl
Portland Or
Lewis and Clark College

--
Cowgirl is... My opinions and beliefs are not those of the
Nicolle Green Lewis and Clark College administration. That
gr...@sun.lclark.edu alone gives some evidence that I am an
intellegent being. (Not much, but some.)

Message has been deleted

Muffy Barkocy

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Dec 28, 1993, 8:14:44 AM12/28/93
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In article <1993Dec28.1...@lclark.edu> gr...@lclark.edu (Nicolle Green) writes:
> I am afraid I can't tell you if guys swallow or about rim jobs (I'm female
> and have never given a rim job before.)

The equipment for this is not sex-specific.

> I will tell you the virginity is not
> something that should be given easily.

Why not? What difference does it make, other than giving you some
experience with sex??

> I wouldn't mind having mine back.

Why? What would that do for you?

Muffy
--
Muffy Barkocy |~Peace bread work and freedom/are the
mu...@fish.com | best/we can acheive/and wearing badges
"amorous inclinations"? Aha! I'm | is not enough/in days like these~
not "not straight," I'm *inclined*.| -- Billy Bragg


Nicolle Green

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Dec 28, 1993, 7:24:49 PM12/28/93
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In article <MUFFY.93D...@bi.fish.com> mu...@bi.fish.com (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>
>In article <1993Dec28.1...@lclark.edu> gr...@lclark.edu (Nicolle Green) writes:
>> I am afraid I can't tell you if guys swallow or about rim jobs (I'm female
>> and have never given a rim job before.)
>
>The equipment for this is not sex-specific.
>

I know that :-) I was refering to the fact that I'm female as a reason for not
knowing if men swallow when giving blow jobs. :-)

>> I will tell you the virginity is not
>> something that should be given easily.
>
>Why not? What difference does it make, other than giving you some
>experience with sex??
>

As i don't feel like giving a ten page story on my first time I will just
say that I would have rather waited and thought it over a bit longer. I am
sure that there is someone out there more deserving of my gift than the
person I gave it too. Once it was gone sex was no longer as special as i feel
it should be. "Oh well, I've all ready done it, might as well do it tonight."
sorta attitude lately. (It has been fun though ;-))


>> I wouldn't mind having mine back.
>
>Why? What would that do for you?
>

I could give it to someone who deserved it. I sure there's someone out
there who does.

>Muffy
>--

A hopeless romantic, I know
Cowgirl

Muffy Barkocy

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Dec 28, 1993, 1:24:31 PM12/28/93
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In article <1993Dec29.0...@lclark.edu> gr...@lclark.edu (Nicolle Green) writes:
>In article <MUFFY.93D...@bi.fish.com> mu...@bi.fish.com (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>
>>In article <1993Dec28.1...@lclark.edu> gr...@lclark.edu (Nicolle Green) writes:
>I know that :-) I was refering to the fact that I'm female as a reason
>for not knowing if men swallow when giving blow jobs. :-)

Yeah, a parse error there...sorry...*smile*.

>>> I will tell you the virginity is not
>>> something that should be given easily.
>>Why not? What difference does it make, other than giving you some
>>experience with sex??
>As i don't feel like giving a ten page story on my first time I will just
>say that I would have rather waited and thought it over a bit longer. I am
>sure that there is someone out there more deserving of my gift than the
>person I gave it too.

Although I have been a virgin and had sex with virgins, I never felt
that there was any "gift" involved. I am pleased that the first person
I had sex with was someone who knew what they were doing and could show
me things, but that was just luck. I did it quite "easily" and still
had a good experience. I agree it's a good idea to make sure that you
know what you're doing before having sex, but that's true in all cases,
and doesn't have much to do with virginity, other than that it's harder
to make that evaluation with little or no experience. That's a catch-22
situation, though.

>Once it was gone sex was no longer as special as i feel
>it should be. "Oh well, I've all ready done it, might as well do it tonight."
>sorta attitude lately. (It has been fun though ;-))

How special sex is has nothing to do with virginity, it has to do with
your attitude and feelings towards sex and towards your partner. I have
had sex with over 30 people, and it has been very special with some, a
lot of fun with others, and disappointing on occasion. The most special
times have been with my current partner, who is somwhere around #26 (I
haven't kept good count). Certainly, if you *believe* that it is no
longer special, then it won't be, but if you recognize that it is
*always* special to share experiences with someone you care about,
particularly experiences such as sex, where you can each contribute to
the enjoyment of both of you, then it can be special no matter how many
times you do it. Indeed, it can get better when you've had some
practice and know more about what you're doing. The value of sex is
*not* in lack of experience.

>>> I wouldn't mind having mine back.
>>Why? What would that do for you?
>I could give it to someone who deserved it. I sure there's someone out
>there who does.

Of all the things a person has to give someone, that seems to me to be
one of the least important. I can give people trust and love and caring
and pleasure and ideas and experience and joy in life. What's more, I
can keep giving those things, endlessly, and they have value in
themselves, not in how often I have given them, or in the fact that they
are destroyed as soon as they are given.

Elf Sternberg

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Dec 28, 1993, 10:43:04 PM12/28/93
to
In article <060317Z...@anon.penet.fi>
an5...@anon.penet.fi writes:

>do most guys swallow the come when they give blowjobs to other guys?

>i'm 18 years old and i'm new to the gay scene and to the internet.
>i've been reading about this other guy's struggle with his sexuality
>(gay fantasies when masturbating) and i can relate to him totally.
>i'm very curious at this time to find out whether guys actually swallow
>come when the give blowjobs. can you get aids from giving blowjobs?

Short answers: No. Yes.

I've swallowed come just once since I started having sex with
men, and I remember it as probably one of the best moments of sex I've
ever had. It was a combination of the straining, and the ache in my
jaw, and the look in his face as I swallowed every last drop his semen
down my throat.

Most of the guys I've known since then do not like to swallow.
They *love* it when you swallow, even ask nicely for you to do so, but
most guys I know don't really enjoy swallowing semen.

It depends entirely on the guy in question. Some guys like to
swallow, some don't. You might be able to take a survey, but what's the
point? Surveys like that are weapons people use against one another.
"See? Most guys swallow... why don't you?" Come on, grow up. If you
like it, that's your business, and your partner's delight.

That said, you *can* get HIV from swallowing semen. It's not
very common at all, but it *can* happen, and the US Centers for Disease
Control have almost 200 cases attributed to receptive oral
transmission. That's not a lot when you consider there are *at least*
500,000 cases of HIV in the country, but it's still a statistic. Do YOU
want to be a statistic, too?

If you want to play safer, *don't* let him come in your mouth.
If you want to be REALLY safe, use a condom.

>i also read that some guys like to give rimjobs. can you get aids from
>rimjobs? do the guy receiving the rimjob wash the anus with soap and
>water before letting the other guy give the rimjob? i think you can get
>salmonella from eating fecal matter. can the guy receiving the rimjob
>actually come (experience an orgasm) from getting rimmed? how long does
>one give a rimjob before he gets tired of it? can the guy giving the
>rimjob come from giving the rimjob?

Short answers: No. Hopefully. Yes. Depends. Not likely.

The anus is not a very "wet" place in comparison to the rest of
the body. Although there is a mucuous secreted to aid in the passage of
fecal matter, it's not in high volumes or likely to be in the vicinity
of a dry and well-cleaned anus, which hopefully is what we're talking
about. However, there are dozens of other nasty diseases like Hepatitis,
salmonella, garderiasis, amoebiasis, shigella. Hepatitis afflicts more
gay men per year than HIV, and it does manage to kill a few of them,
too. The only likely possibility of HIV transmission in the case of
rimming is if the guy getting rimmed is bleeding from his rectum in some
way.

Some people can come from having their nipples played with, and
others strictly from having their prostate stroked. I know one woman
who comes from having her neck bitten "in just the right way." If
that's the case, then there are certainly guys out there who can come
from being rimmed. Probably not a lot, but at least a few. How long
one can rim depends entirely on the tongue in question. And if you
don't come from eating food, what makes you think you're going to come
eating asshole?

Elf !!!

--
I see I'm in a lot of killfiles again. E...@halcyon.com

Elf Sternberg

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Dec 28, 1993, 10:43:35 PM12/28/93
to
In article <gauthm.7...@mistral.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
gau...@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Gauthier Marc) writes:

> The last time I saw my doctor and got tested for the HIV
> virus, he told me that swallowing sperm wasn't really a vector in
> the propagation of AIDS.

> I've also read that Canadian Health Officials consider oral
> sex to be relatively safe while American ones regarded it as
> dangerous as anal intercourse.

> Does anyone have any type of feedback on the difference
> between the two countries (if it exists) and what are the facts?

There are currently two "safe sex standards," which are
colloquially termed "American" and "European." The American standards
holds that _any_ contact with another's bodily fluids are a matter of
concern and recommends the use of condoms and barriers for oral sex,
gloves for fingering, and a scrupulous post-sex cleanliness.

The European standard, on the other hand, holds that while there
is some risk to oral sex, the honest truths are thatvery few of all HIV
cases can be directly attributed to people who NEVER engage in anal
intercourse, and that advocating condoms for oral sex is unecessary.

Steve Pope

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Dec 29, 1993, 12:02:27 AM12/29/93
to
e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:

> The European standard, on the other hand, holds that while there

> is some risk to oral sex, the honest truths are that very few of all

> HIV cases can be directly attributed to people who NEVER engage
> in anal intercourse, and that advocating condoms for oral sex
> is unecessary.

Studies show a positive correlation between oral sex and HIV
infection among populations of gay men.

The fact that few incidents of infection have been *unequivocally*
attributed to oral sex should not be overinterpreted.
Medical professionals tend to assign as the transmission
route the "riskiest" behavior they can identify. This
does not mean that they are always guessing correctly.

Unprotected oral sex is also a great way to transmit herpes
and various other infections.

It is, of course, a personal decision how one translates these
factoids into one's own definition of "safe sex".

Steve

Nicolle Green

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Dec 29, 1993, 1:28:11 AM12/29/93
to
In article <MUFFY.93D...@bi.fish.com> mu...@bi.fish.com (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>
>In article <1993Dec29.0...@lclark.edu> gr...@lclark.edu (Nicolle Green) writes:
>
>Although I have been a virgin and had sex with virgins, I never felt
>that there was any "gift" involved. I am pleased that the first person
>I had sex with was someone who knew what they were doing and could show
>me things, but that was just luck. I did it quite "easily" and still
>had a good experience. I agree it's a good idea to make sure that you
>know what you're doing before having sex, but that's true in all cases,
>and doesn't have much to do with virginity, other than that it's harder
>to make that evaluation with little or no experience. That's a catch-22
>situation, though.

I do think of virginity as a gift. I have friends who think of it as a
hindrence. I am also a hopeless romantic who is waiting to be swept of
her feet so she can ride of to the sunset. I know unrealistic, but
everyone has their fantasies. :-)

>
>How special sex is has nothing to do with virginity, it has to do with
>your attitude and feelings towards sex and towards your partner. I have
>had sex with over 30 people, and it has been very special with some, a
>lot of fun with others, and disappointing on occasion. The most special
>times have been with my current partner, who is somwhere around #26 (I
>haven't kept good count). Certainly, if you *believe* that it is no
>longer special, then it won't be, but if you recognize that it is
>*always* special to share experiences with someone you care about,
>particularly experiences such as sex, where you can each contribute to
>the enjoyment of both of you, then it can be special no matter how many
>times you do it. Indeed, it can get better when you've had some
>practice and know more about what you're doing. The value of sex is
>*not* in lack of experience.

30 people?! ACK! I have a way to go. :-) Seriously though,
I understand what you are saying, hell, I even believe most of it.
It just lately I have found that my boundries are a lot lower than
they should be. (According to the "Good Girl" morals that have been
instilled in me.) It's fun to let the walls down but It's scarey too.
I don't know what in particular is scary, it just is. Since it's scary;
I find it hard to think of it as special. I know you'll say something
like who cares what the "Good Girl" should do, do what I want to do. But it's
hard. I'm working on it. :-)

>
>Of all the things a person has to give someone, that seems to me to be
>one of the least important. I can give people trust and love and caring
>and pleasure and ideas and experience and joy in life. What's more, I
>can keep giving those things, endlessly, and they have value in
>themselves, not in how often I have given them, or in the fact that they
>are destroyed as soon as they are given.

Good point. But giving someone your virginity should also be giving them
trust, >pleasure and honor. It says I care about you enough to give you
something that has never been given anyone before. Again romantic and
not in the least realistic. But that's me.

Cowgirl

>Muffy
>--

Muffy Barkocy

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Dec 28, 1993, 6:30:56 PM12/28/93
to

In article <1993Dec29.0...@lclark.edu> gr...@lclark.edu (Nicolle Green) writes:
>I do think of virginity as a gift. I have friends who think of it as a
>hindrence.

I think that both are putting way too much emphasis on something that
isn't worth it. The whole concept is just part of the idea of ownership
of women and how great it is to "get" a woman who hasn't "belonged" to
anyone else before (I *still* haven't, and don't plan to!...I guess I'm
perpetually a virgin...*GRIN*). However, as I should have said in my
last post, I'm not trying to get *you* to change your mind, just arguing
with the advice you gave which suggests that people should put this huge
emphasis on virginity.

However, I also think that emphasis isn't doing you much good - you say:

>It just lately I have found that my boundries are a lot lower than
>they should be. (According to the "Good Girl" morals that have been
>instilled in me.)

You don't seem to be happy about this, and it seems to be a direct
result of valuing yourself primarily by your virginity...now that it's
"gone," you say you don't worry so much about what you do. Why not?
You're just as valuable, your standards of right and wrong are just as
applicable.

[rearranging a little]


>30 people?! ACK! I have a way to go. :-)

Hey, it's not a contest...*grin*. Anyone who lives long enough can have
a lot of sex, with a lot of different people, if that's what they want.
I've slowed down in my old age...*grin*.

>I find it hard to think of it as special. I know you'll say something
>like who cares what the "Good Girl" should do, do what I want to do. But it's
>hard. I'm working on it. :-)

Not quite...*grin*...close, though! You must have been reading my
stuff. No, I'd say that if what you want is to be a Good Girl, then go
for it! However, analyze why it is that you want that and make sure it
*is* what you want to do. There are people around (hi, Mike!) who think
you have to analyze things you want more when they are the same as what
is dictated by society, but I don't go for that...analyze *everything*
as much as possible (short of analyzing yourself into paralysis), that's
my motto.

>>can keep giving those things, endlessly, and they have value in
>>themselves, not in how often I have given them, or in the fact that they
>>are destroyed as soon as they are given.
>Good point. But giving someone your virginity should also be giving them
>trust, pleasure and honor.

Having sex with anyone can be that. Again, I really think it's the
attitude towards them. I have never loved anyone as much as I love my
SO, and while I'm not (quite!) arrogant enough to think that my SO
should be honored by that, it's certainly unique, and I think it will
stay that way...*smile*.

>It says I care about you enough to give you
>something that has never been given anyone before. Again romantic and
>not in the least realistic. But that's me.

Oh, I'm all for romantic...I just think there are much more valuable
things to be romantic about...I'm not going to just share one awkward
sexual experience with my partner, I'm going to share the rest of my
life, all the minutes of it, all the thoughts and feelings...that's
valuable and romantic to me.

All I see coming from the idea of virginity is a lot of guilt,
possessiveness, and a bunch of attempts to control women's sexuality
besides. It has too many negative connotations for me to value it.
Again, I'm not trying to change your mind, but I personally would advise
people to put value in something that they *can* give more than once,
because a relationship isn't going to flourish for decades on that one
momentary possession, even if it were good to base relationships on
possession.

David A. Kaye

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Dec 29, 1993, 3:05:38 AM12/29/93
to
Steve Pope (s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu) wrote:

: Studies show a positive correlation between oral sex and HIV

: infection among populations of gay men.

Okay, time for facts about those "studies" please. The CDC links all
male-male sex together, so there's no way to tell from their stats. If
you know of any study showing demonstrable risk, PLEASE cite the
reference here. Thousands of us would like a definitive citation.

Steve Pope

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Dec 29, 1993, 3:59:28 AM12/29/93
to
d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) responds to my post:

>: Studies show a positive correlation between oral sex and HIV
>: infection among populations of gay men.
>
>Okay, time for facts about those "studies" please. The CDC links all
>male-male sex together, so there's no way to tell from their stats.

Agreed.

> If you know of any study showing demonstrable risk, PLEASE cite the
> reference here. Thousands of us would like a definitive citation.

I will make an attempt to do so. But to summarize:

The primary source I am thinking of would
be the so-called Gay Cohorts study, which is very well
known. It was performed on blood collected from San Francisco
homosexuals during the late seventies as part of a hepatitis
transmission study. The original study surveyed participants as
to the frequency of practicing various sex acts.

Years later, the same blood samples were tested for HIV
serostatus, and the results of the previous surveys on
sexual behavior applied. A multivariate analysis was used to
estimate the involvement of different sex acts in transmission.

I will try to dig up the exact reference; I'm pretty sure it is
in either "Public Health" or J. New England Med. Soc., mid-80's.
but I can't absolutely promise to be able to locate it.

I'd also appreciate it if anybody reading this, who
is more familiar than I am with the above, could provide a
reference to the data I've mentioned.

I do not claim to be authoritative on this topic;
I have attempted to remain informed however.

Steve

Steve Pope

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Dec 29, 1993, 4:42:19 AM12/29/93
to
Muffy writes,

> How special sex is has nothing to do with virginity, it has to do with
> your attitude and feelings towards sex and towards your partner.

I usually don't disagree with Muffy... but I will take exception to
the above as a categorical statement.

I submit that virginity is a somewhat prevalent sexual fetish.
The concept of virginity has been eroticized and romanticized,
and this idealation of virginity infects certain people,
though not everybody. Clearly, from Muffy's statements,
she is not afflicted... but just as clearly, Nicolle is.

If one is beset with the virginity fetish, then, for
that individual, how special sex is has *lots* to do with virginity.

Unlike most fetishes, the fetish for virgin sex is one
that a person can only "give" on one occasion. However, on
the "take" side of things, one can be given virginity many
times over. I have known people who specialize in deflowering:
in the extreme cases, nothing else really does it for them.
For these (admittedly perverted) people, sex with a
non-virgin just doesn't excite and satisfy.

An interesting addendum on "giving' one's virginity: it's been said
here before, and I believe there is a bit of truth to it,
that a bisexual has the unique opportunity to give their
virginity twice. I can identify with this; the occasion on
which I lost my virginity (with a woman) was unpleasant and,
fortunately, forgettable. But the subsequent occasion on which
I lost my same-sex virginity with a man, was very special, and
despite the passage of 20 years, I remain close friends with
that one-time lover to this day.

So, although I would personally not want to be consumed by a
virginity fetish, let's not sell it short either.

Steve

David A. Kaye

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 5:57:58 AM12/29/93
to
Steve Pope (s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu) wrote:

: The primary source I am thinking of would


: be the so-called Gay Cohorts study, which is very well known.

I'm familiar with it. My ex was part of it. I do know that extensive
questioning was done regarding specific sex acts. But, what I don't know
is what this has to do with HIV.

I'd guess what you're saying is that because X% of gay men claimed only
to have had oral sex and because X% seroconverted, therefore it must have
been only thorugh oral sex.

At the time the study was undertaken, drug use (especially IV drug use)
was very high among gay men -- something which was likely not reported by
study participants. My ex had done speed (not injected it, though) and
I'm positive he never would have admitted to using it because he wouldn't
even admit it to ME! During that late 1970s you could to go any gay
bathhouse or sex club and get nearly any kind of illegal drug for
dropping, injection, whatever.

What I'm saying is that there was a lot of denial going on at the time,
so I tend to wonder how accurate those "oral sex only" responses really
meant.

Steve Pope

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 11:57:34 AM12/29/93
to
In article <2frnrm$s...@crl.crl.com> d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) writes:

>Steve Pope (s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu) wrote:
>
>> The primary source I am thinking of would
>> be the so-called Gay Cohorts study, which is very well known.
>

> I'm familiar with it. My ex was part of it. [...]

I am moving this by email, I think it is drifting
off topic.

Steve

Lynn

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 12:04:41 PM12/29/93
to
gr...@lclark.edu (Nicolle Green) wrote:

Muffy asks:

>>Why not? What difference does it make, other than giving you some
>>experience with sex??

>As i don't feel like giving a ten page story on my first time I will just
>say that I would have rather waited and thought it over a bit longer. I am
>sure that there is someone out there more deserving of my gift than the
>person I gave it too. Once it was gone sex was no longer as special as i feel
>it should be. "Oh well, I've all ready done it, might as well do it tonight."
>sorta attitude lately. (It has been fun though ;-))

Why or why do I get the feeling you aren't picking the right sex
partners? Maybe, I don't know what you mean by "special." But if the
feeling is "might as well," you either have a low sex drive or the
wrong person (people) in bed (or on the kitchen counter).

[virginity]


>>> I wouldn't mind having mine back.

And Muffy asks:

>>Why? What would that do for you?

>I could give it to someone who deserved it. I sure there's someone out
>there who does.

Excuse me? "Give it" to someone who "deserved" it? I think you have
missed the point. :-)

Sex is something you do for _you._ Doing it with someone is sometimes
much more fun than doing it alone, but the person who "deserves" it is
you!

Godess forbid I ever have a sex partner who is "giving me a gift." I
want some good old selfish self interest in the sex department. I want
a partner who wants all the pleasure I can provide for zir enjoyment.

The "I love you so I will give myself to you" stuff isn't worth
diddly. It is much better to say "I love you so lets use each other
'til our brains melt."

>A hopeless romantic, I know

As long as you think sex is a gift to be given to someone and not a
selfish act of self fulfillment, I would say you are hopless. :-)

Find someone who makes your toes curl and demand that zie curl them
routinely!

Lynn

Nicolle Green

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 12:11:07 PM12/29/93
to
In article <MUFFY.93D...@bi.fish.com> mu...@bi.fish.com (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>
>
>I think that both are putting way too much emphasis on something that
>isn't worth it. The whole concept is just part of the idea of ownership
>of women and how great it is to "get" a woman who hasn't "belonged" to
>anyone else before (I *still* haven't, and don't plan to!...I guess I'm
>perpetually a virgin...*GRIN*). However, as I should have said in my
>last post, I'm not trying to get *you* to change your mind, just arguing
>with the advice you gave which suggests that people should put this huge
>emphasis on virginity.
>
I am not saying that everyone should put emphasis on virginity. I do
believe that the attitude of virgins being "weird" is wrong. I believe
that people should think about what they are doing and make sure that it is
something they want to do.

>
>You don't seem to be happy about this, and it seems to be a direct
>result of valuing yourself primarily by your virginity...now that it's
>"gone," you say you don't worry so much about what you do. Why not?
>You're just as valuable, your standards of right and wrong are just as
>applicable.


Okay story time. With my boundries being lower I am referring to my current
SO. It was "Hi nice to meet you, I'm horny, you're horny, Let's go to bed."
"Okay" We have since become friends who have great sex. I never would
have done that before. I still find it hard to believe that I did. I don't
regret it, in fact, I'm glad I did it. I meet a great person and we're
having a great time. I am just finding myself doing things that "Good Girls"
don't do and enjoying it. It's shocking.
>
>[rearranging a little] (That's okay who want's things to be arranged? :-))

>>30 people?! ACK! I have a way to go. :-)
>
>Hey, it's not a contest...*grin*. Anyone who lives long enough can have
>a lot of sex, with a lot of different people, if that's what they want.
>I've slowed down in my old age...*grin*.

I'm only 18 I'm just getting started.


>
>>I find it hard to think of it as special. I know you'll say something
>>like who cares what the "Good Girl" should do, do what I want to do. But it's
>>hard. I'm working on it. :-)
>
>Not quite...*grin*...close, though! You must have been reading my
>stuff. No, I'd say that if what you want is to be a Good Girl, then go
>for it! However, analyze why it is that you want that and make sure it
>*is* what you want to do. There are people around (hi, Mike!) who think
>you have to analyze things you want more when they are the same as what
>is dictated by society, but I don't go for that...analyze *everything*
>as much as possible (short of analyzing yourself into paralysis), that's
>my motto.
>

I do analyze, almost to much. I am a thinker, not a feeler. I am starting
to analyze my value system. What do I label and good and bad? Why do I
label them the way I do. What can i do to erase the labels? It's proving
to be interesting.
>

>All I see coming from the idea of virginity is a lot of guilt,
>possessiveness, and a bunch of attempts to control women's sexuality
>besides. It has too many negative connotations for me to value it.
>Again, I'm not trying to change your mind, but I personally would advise
>people to put value in something that they *can* give more than once,
>because a relationship isn't going to flourish for decades on that one
>momentary possession, even if it were good to base relationships on
>possession.

It's amazing all of the mixed messages about virginity, save it for marriage,
lose it or you're a prude, sow your oats, etc. I beleive that people need
to think about what they are doing and fiqure out how much value they are
going to put on virginity for themselves. There is nothing wrong with
being an 20 year old virgin. There is nothing wrong with sleeping with
many people before that. As long as you thought about it and made a concious
choice. I beleive that people need to think about it before it becomes an
issue. You and I think differently about it and that's fine. I just don't
like it when people think there is something wrong with them because they
are still virgins. I see virginity as something special and I hate seeing
peoople haveing some awkward encounter just to get rid of it.

Cowgirl

Nicolle Green

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 12:17:15 PM12/29/93
to
In article <2frjdr$f...@agate.berkeley.edu> s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
>
>I submit that virginity is a somewhat prevalent sexual fetish.
>The concept of virginity has been eroticized and romanticized,
>and this idealation of virginity infects certain people,
>though not everybody. Clearly, from Muffy's statements,
>she is not afflicted... but just as clearly, Nicolle is.

Hey someone spelled my name correctly!!! I'm impressed. :-)


>
>If one is beset with the virginity fetish, then, for
>that individual, how special sex is has *lots* to do with virginity.
>>

>An interesting addendum on "giving' one's virginity: it's been said
>here before, and I believe there is a bit of truth to it,
>that a bisexual has the unique opportunity to give their
>virginity twice. I can identify with this; the occasion on
>

You can give virginity away many times. Doing something you have never
done before can be considered losing your virginity. Hopefully it will
be something that you can look back at with fondness whether it be
virginity of sex, giving a blow job, or going to Disneyland. I believe
that the first time should be a time you remember, a time that is special.

Cowgirl

>
>Steve

Marc Lombart

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 11:40:02 AM12/29/93
to
e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:

Well, from what I remember swallowing semen can be dangerous if
you have any sores in your mouth, cause the virus could enter your
system through that, but otherwise should be safe.


--
======================================================================
Marc Lombart T'is better to debate without
Internet: ran...@CAM.ORG Resolution, than to resolve
Compuserve 70702,1603 Without debate.

Alan Jaffray

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 3:52:13 PM12/29/93
to
Muffy Barkocy <mu...@bi.fish.com> wrote:
>In article <1993Dec28.1...@lclark.edu> gr...@lclark.edu (Nicolle Green) writes:
>
>> I will tell you the virginity is not
>> something that should be given easily.
>
>Why not? What difference does it make, other than giving you some
>experience with sex??

I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to advise people who haven't
had sex before to be a little cautious about getting into a sexual
relationship. It's easy to get very emotionally confused about it;
I know people who've stayed in really bad relationships because they
were giving the relationship significance that should have been given
to the sex, a mistake that's easier to avoid when you have more
perspective. Similarly if you're confused and don't really know how
to handle a sexual relationship, but your partner does, there's the
potential for manipulation; perhaps better to make sure you trust them
not to do such a thing first...

I agree that the mystical notion of there being something indefinably
pure about never having had sex seems really bizarre... :)

--
Alan Jaffray (jaf...@math.uchicago.edu)
"If you're so special, why aren't you dead?" -- The Breeders

Progressive Review

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 4:11:22 PM12/29/93
to
In case anybody was interested in that long post about rimjobs signed
"chris barrett '97", according to my phone book, "chris barrett '97 does
not exist at Princeton University. No surprise.
--ben

Progressive Review

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 4:35:26 PM12/29/93
to

I guess that makes me completely hopeless, too!! (and happy to stay that
way, thank you).
___BY FAR___ the most erotic and wonderful sex I have ever had is when
my own pleasure is secondary, and I am focusing on giving the "gift" of
pleasure to my partener. Loving my partener and wanting to make him/her
happy is the best way for me to have, as Dr. Ruth says, "great sex!"

I have had "selfish" sex, too, where I was fucused on my own feelings
and pleasures. I have enjoyed that _MUCH_ less than "unselfish" sex.

Of course, that's all just the hopeless romantic in me, too, making its
way into my sex life.
--ben

Muffy Barkocy

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 9:28:51 AM12/29/93
to
In article <1993Dec29.2...@Princeton.EDU> pro...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Progressive Review) writes:
>In article <1993Dec29....@ast.saic.com> do...@ast.saic.com (Lynn) writes:
>>As long as you think sex is a gift to be given to someone and not a
>>selfish act of self fulfillment, I would say you are hopless. :-)
>>
>>Find someone who makes your toes curl and demand that zie curl them
>>routinely!

>I guess that makes me completely hopeless, too!! (and happy to stay that


>way, thank you).
>___BY FAR___ the most erotic and wonderful sex I have ever had is when
>my own pleasure is secondary, and I am focusing on giving the "gift" of
>pleasure to my partener. Loving my partener and wanting to make him/her
>happy is the best way for me to have, as Dr. Ruth says, "great sex!"

>I have had "selfish" sex, too, where I was fucused on my own feelings
>and pleasures. I have enjoyed that _MUCH_ less than "unselfish" sex.

I disagree with you both...*grin*. Why do you have to focus on only one
of you? *My* best sex experiences are when both I and my partner are
both interested in both of us. I find it hard to enjoy sex when the
other person is focusing on me and making their interests secondary. I
do enjoy it when I'm focusing on them and not caring too much about what
is done to me, but I find the situation where *both* people's pleasure
is a primary concern to be by far the most enjoyable.

Lynn

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 6:39:24 PM12/29/93
to
pro...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Progressive Review) wrote:

I said:
>>
>>Godess forbid I ever have a sex partner who is "giving me a gift." I
>>want some good old selfish self interest in the sex department. I want
>>a partner who wants all the pleasure I can provide for zir enjoyment.
>>
>>The "I love you so I will give myself to you" stuff isn't worth
>>diddly. It is much better to say "I love you so lets use each other
>>'til our brains melt."

And the Progressive Review (Ben) responded:

>I guess that makes me completely hopeless, too!! (and happy to stay that
>way, thank you).
>___BY FAR___ the most erotic and wonderful sex I have ever had is when
>my own pleasure is secondary, and I am focusing on giving the "gift" of
>pleasure to my partener. Loving my partener and wanting to make him/her
>happy is the best way for me to have, as Dr. Ruth says, "great sex!"
>
>I have had "selfish" sex, too, where I was fucused on my own feelings
>and pleasures. I have enjoyed that _MUCH_ less than "unselfish" sex.
>
>Of course, that's all just the hopeless romantic in me, too, making its
>way into my sex life.

I think we aren't quite communicating. When I am providing my partner
with a Moment To Remember, the emotion and feeling I have is extremely
intense. And I give that moment to remember for _me_. I do it for my
pleasure.

It works out that I have to have a very strong emotional attachment to
my partner. I can't seem to get aroused for sex with relative
stranges (I will hug and cuddle pratically anyone though. :-).

But I give pleasure for what it does for me. For the thrill I get for
causing loud noises of pleasure. :-)

I had a partner who felt it was zir duty to give back in measure. It
was awful. Zie was doing what zie thought I wanted zir to do. Not
what zie wanted to do. I don't want another partner who feels some
obligation to return oral sex if zie doesn't like to perform oral sex.
(as an example).

I don't want someone to make a gift of some sexual act or of zir
body. If zie isn't with me by strong and selfish desire, I don't want
zir in my bed.

Lynn (Cuddle-slut, but very picky sex partner)

Lynn

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 6:46:24 PM12/29/93
to
mu...@bi.fish.com (Muffy Barkocy) wrote:
>In article <1993Dec29.2...@Princeton.EDU> pro...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Progressive Review) writes:
>>In article <1993Dec29....@ast.saic.com> do...@ast.saic.com (Lynn) writes:
>>>As long as you think sex is a gift to be given to someone and not a
>>>selfish act of self fulfillment, I would say you are hopless. :-)
>>>
>
>>I have had "selfish" sex, too, where I was fucused on my own feelings
>>and pleasures. I have enjoyed that _MUCH_ less than "unselfish" sex.
>
>I disagree with you both...*grin*. Why do you have to focus on only one
>of you? *My* best sex experiences are when both I and my partner are
>both interested in both of us. I find it hard to enjoy sex when the
>other person is focusing on me and making their interests secondary. I
>do enjoy it when I'm focusing on them and not caring too much about what
>is done to me, but I find the situation where *both* people's pleasure
>is a primary concern to be by far the most enjoyable.

Can you you be focused on receiving and giving at the same time? I
can't. I have never understood the fascination with the 69 position.

I don't think anyone (all four of them :-) noticed that I was being
selfish. I am rather oral. Actually, I am a lot oral. :-) I think
they were too busy thrashing around the surface they were on to notice
if I my attitude. :-)

Afterward, they asked why I had a huge silly grin on my face. :-)

Lynn (Selfish != Unconcerned)

Muffy Barkocy

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 11:08:54 AM12/29/93
to

In article <1993Dec29.2...@ast.saic.com> do...@ast.saic.com (Lynn) writes:

>mu...@bi.fish.com (Muffy Barkocy) wrote:
>>I disagree with you both...*grin*. Why do you have to focus on only one
>>of you? *My* best sex experiences are when both I and my partner are
>>both interested in both of us.
>Can you you be focused on receiving and giving at the same time? I
>can't. I have never understood the fascination with the 69 position.

Oh, I'm not particularly into that, either...I get distracted. However,
I just said that both of us were *interested* in both of our pleasure.
That most certainly does *not* require that we both be doing things to
each other at the ame time all the time. For example, to use your
example of oral sex, I find performing oral sex very exciting and
enjoyable. If I'm with someone who likes it, and they believe I like
it, then we are in fact both focused on both of our pleasure, even if,
at the time, I'm the one who is *actively* doing something. If I'm with
someone that doesn't like it, I don't particularly enjoy doing it, even
though I *do* in fact enjoy the act in itself, apart from the pleasure
it gives my partner. If I didn't like it, I might do it "for them"
every once in a while, but it wouldn't be up there among the top
experiences.

Lynn

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 7:55:29 PM12/29/93
to
mu...@bi.fish.com (Muffy Barkocy) wrote:
>
>In article <1993Dec29.2...@ast.saic.com> do...@ast.saic.com (Lynn) writes:
>>mu...@bi.fish.com (Muffy Barkocy) wrote:
>>>I disagree with you both...*grin*. Why do you have to focus on only one
>>>of you? *My* best sex experiences are when both I and my partner are
>>>both interested in both of us.
>>Can you you be focused on receiving and giving at the same time? I
>>can't. I have never understood the fascination with the 69 position.
>
>Oh, I'm not particularly into that, either...I get distracted. However,
>I just said that both of us were *interested* in both of our pleasure.
>That most certainly does *not* require that we both be doing things to
>each other at the ame time all the time. For example, to use your
>example of oral sex, I find performing oral sex very exciting and
>enjoyable. If I'm with someone who likes it, and they believe I like
>it, then we are in fact both focused on both of our pleasure, even if,
>at the time, I'm the one who is *actively* doing something. If I'm with
>someone that doesn't like it, I don't particularly enjoy doing it, even
>though I *do* in fact enjoy the act in itself, apart from the pleasure
>it gives my partner. If I didn't like it, I might do it "for them"
>every once in a while, but it wouldn't be up there among the top
>experiences.

Okay. We are saying the same thing. We are using different words. :-)

I like giving oral sex. But if my partner isn't having a good time, I
don't have a good time. It is in my selfish best interest to pay
attention to my partner and do my damnedest to make it OneToRemember
for Zir. I feel best when my partner feels over the top.

And if my partner loves doing something for me that I like having done
to me, then I get both the obvious pleasure, plus the knowlege that
zie loves doing this for me. A double whamy. :-)

In both cases I act and react for my greatest pleasure. It works out
nicely for my partner that zir pleasure is tied directly to mine. But
I am very selfish about wanting to feel the most I can and the best I
can each time I am in bed.

Lynn

Keith J. Farmer

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 10:44:10 PM12/29/93
to
In article <1993Dec29.2...@Princeton.EDU> pro...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Progressive Review) writes:

Good Point...

According to my phonebook, I don't exist, my mother doesn't exist, my aunt
didn't exist (she's dead now, so that point's moot)...

The Phone Book is not the end all of resources.. ;)

Keith

Darren Toop

unread,
Dec 29, 1993, 10:20:38 PM12/29/93
to
>mu...@bi.fish.com (Muffy Barkocy) wrote:
>> [description of Muffy enjoying her partner's pleasure]

do...@ast.saic.com (Lynn) writes:
> [description of Lynn enjoying his partner's pleasure]

then Lynn says:
>Okay. We are saying the same thing. We are using different words. :-)

Yes!!!! Yes!!!! Yes!!!!

A great deal of my enjoyment of sex is tied into how my partner is doing.
If they are having a good time, really enjoying it, then a **big** part
of my enjoyment comes from their enjoyment.

Sometimes, I really like to "give", to make my partner happy, to do the
things that they like, the way they like it. I feel happy being able
to bring them pleasure. Even if it's not something I necessarily
enjoy all on my own, I usually enjoy it just because it turns them on
so much.

Sometimes, the tables are turned and everything gets done exactly the
way I like it. Hmmm, sounds selfish doesn't it? Well, I said
"sometimes". And if my partner is not enjoying what we are doing,
my excitement wilts real fast. :-( :-

But when partners get good at mutual pleasure, like Lynn said, it's
a double-whammy!!! That's when the pleasure and passion become double
amplified. For all kids of reasons such as tiredness, horny-ness,
other distractions, this double-amplified pleasure does not always
occur. But when it does, it really is the best!

I think that each person has some skill/talent at tapping into
another's pleasure. Some people have more, some people have less. For
me, it's very important how my partner is doing.

hugs and cheers,
Darren ras...@bnr.ca

Jim Kirwan

unread,
Dec 30, 1993, 2:45:33 PM12/30/93
to
------------------------- Original Article -------------------------

I know that :-) I was refering to the fact that I'm female as a reason

not not knowing if men swallow when giving blow jobs. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The question is 'Do you swallow when you give them?' : )

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


I could give it to someone who deserved it. I sure there's someone out
there who does.

Muffy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really do deserve it, Muffy! Promise!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cowgirl is... My kind of woman!

Jim

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Muffy Barkocy

unread,
Dec 30, 1993, 9:44:28 AM12/30/93
to
In article <1993Dec30.1...@schbbs.mot.com> CAC...@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Jim Kirwan) writes:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could give it to someone who deserved it. I sure there's someone out
there who does.

Muffy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really do deserve it, Muffy! Promise!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly not, if you're not even capable of getting the attributions
right in a post. Personally, I prefer there to be a brain attached to
any (living) sexual organs I come in contact with.

(The "who deserves it" remark was made by Nicolle.)

Laurel Halbany

unread,
Dec 30, 1993, 10:16:00 AM12/30/93
to
-=> Quoting Nicolle Green to All <=-

NG> I do think of virginity as a gift. I have friends who think of it as
NG> a hindrence. I am also a hopeless romantic who is waiting to be swept
NG> of her feet so she can ride of to the sunset. I know unrealistic, but
NG> everyone has their fantasies. :-)

Any time you choose to share your body and your sexuality with
someone, it is special and a gift to them (and their choice is
also a gift to you). Being a "hopeless romantic" doesn't mean
that you need to view your first major sexual experience
as special and all others as common and ordinary.

... I love men as much as I hate patriarchy.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

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Laurel Halbany

unread,
Dec 30, 1993, 5:41:00 PM12/30/93
to
-=> Quoting Nicolle Green to All <=-

NG> Okay story time. With my boundries being lower I am referring to my
NG> current SO. It was "Hi nice to meet you, I'm horny, you're horny,
NG> Let's go to bed." "Okay" We have since become friends who have great
NG> sex. I never would have done that before. I still find it hard to
NG> believe that I did. I don't regret it, in fact, I'm glad I did it. I
NG> meet a great person and we're having a great time. I am just finding
NG> myself doing things that "Good Girls" don't do and enjoying it. It's
NG> shocking. >

Remember that "Good Girls" are also supposed to be self-destructive,
uncaring at all about their own needs, submissive to men, not
all that smart, and not all that interesting.

You're probably *much* better off this way. :*

NG> I'm only 18 I'm just getting started.

Remember, you're not in any rush. You've got plenty of time. Just
take care of yourself and do what makes you happy.

... I love men as much as I hate patriarchy.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

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Clive Jones

unread,
Dec 31, 1993, 3:53:39 PM12/31/93
to
In article <gauthm.7...@mistral.ERE.UMontreal.CA> gau...@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Gauthier Marc) writes:
> The last time I saw my doctor and got tested for the HIV virus,
>he told me that swallowing sperm wasn't really a vector in the propagation
>of AIDS.

Last time I heard anything on this subject (three years ago), opinion
in the UK was that oral sex was relatively safe - the main danger
being access to the blood stream such as chapped lips and mouth
ulcers. These seem to be dangers for the person giving oral sex - I
don't know whether they are also a risk for the person receiving it.

You can, of course, get flavoured condoms...

Rimming is a substantial hygeine risk, but not as dangerous from the
HIV point of view as anal penetration (with the penis).

One thing I've never quite had cleared up is whether condoms are
advisable for reasons other than STDs when practicing anal sex. My
doctor seemed quite happy that a little lube on its own was sufficient
to avoid damage to the anus.

--Clive.

Zoe Antonia Velonis

unread,
Jan 3, 1994, 3:37:55 PM1/3/94
to
In article <2g23gj$5...@taki.nsict.org> cl...@nsict.org (Clive Jones) writes:
>In article <gauthm.7...@mistral.ERE.UMontreal.CA> gau...@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Gauthier Marc) writes:
>> The last time I saw my doctor and got tested for the HIV virus,
>>he told me that swallowing sperm wasn't really a vector in the propagation
>>of AIDS.
>
>Last time I heard anything on this subject (three years ago), opinion
>in the UK was that oral sex was relatively safe - the main danger
>being access to the blood stream such as chapped lips and mouth
>ulcers. These seem to be dangers for the person giving oral sex - I
>don't know whether they are also a risk for the person receiving it.

Something else which you may not think about as a safety risk is brushing your teeth.
Even if your gums are in good condition and don't bleed when you brush them, it's
probably a good idea to wait a bit after brushing your teeth before having
unprotected oral sex if you're really worried about things. Then again, if you
were that worried about things, you probably wouldn't be having unprotected oral sex
at all!
Whatever...


..
Zoe

--
******Zoe A. Velonis******|"God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs.
*aka eo...@chopin.udel.edu| God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates
*Bifeminist, tall & poly. | dinosaurs. Dinosaurs eat man....
*Unwanted comeons posted. | Woman inherits the earth!" --Jurassic Park

Olaf Seibert

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Jan 3, 1994, 6:09:48 PM1/3/94
to
In <1993Dec30....@ast.saic.com> do...@ast.saic.com (Lynn) writes:
>I like giving oral sex. But if my partner isn't having a good time, I
>don't have a good time. It is in my selfish best interest to pay
>attention to my partner and do my damnedest to make it OneToRemember
>for Zir. I feel best when my partner feels over the top.

I think this attitude applies to most everything in life. It is in your own
interest to be nice (tolerant, you-name-it) to everybody, because it
encourages them to be nice in return. It is usually easier (or cheaper,
less stressful, ...) in the end than being unfriendly (hostile, at war,
whatever). That is in the interest of both parties, so in particular it is
in your interest.

Unfortunately this only works if the other party realises the validity of
this principle.

-Olaf.
--
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert D787B44DFC896063 4CBB95A5BD1DAA96
\X/ I can bicycle on both sides of the road - rhi...@mbfys.kun.nl

Space Madness

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Jan 4, 1994, 1:51:35 AM1/4/94
to
Darren Toop (ras...@bnr.ca) wrote:

> Yes!!!! Yes!!!! Yes!!!!

> A great deal of my enjoyment of sex is tied into how my partner is doing.
> If they are having a good time, really enjoying it, then a **big** part
> of my enjoyment comes from their enjoyment.

Generally the only reason I have sexual contact at all is for the other
person's pleasure. Usually I wind up becoming physically ill. Then, a couple
of months ago, I kinda' wound up saying "hey; this sex thing isn't half bad."
Of course, (besides the fact that this scared the living shit out of me) I
never got a chance to pursue this one... *sigh* I even used to vomit from
mere kissing... Wow... was I shocked to find out that I could actually ENJOY
kissing... and other things...

> Sometimes, I really like to "give", to make my partner happy, to do the
> things that they like, the way they like it. I feel happy being able
> to bring them pleasure. Even if it's not something I necessarily
> enjoy all on my own, I usually enjoy it just because it turns them on
> so much.

That's what sex is for... to be happy in bringing happiness to another


> Sometimes, the tables are turned and everything gets done exactly the
> way I like it. Hmmm, sounds selfish doesn't it? Well, I said
> "sometimes". And if my partner is not enjoying what we are doing,
> my excitement wilts real fast. :-( :-

wouldnt know... dont even know what i really like.


> I think that each person has some skill/talent at tapping into
> another's pleasure. Some people have more, some people have less. For
> me, it's very important how my partner is doing.

it is wonderful to make someone happy. it was great (although
frightening) to be complimented. i try my damnedest to please someboday as
much as possible.

Kalaria
--
Bethany Ramirez "Bitty" |"Just when I'd stopped |"And the world was a song.
bkra...@unix.amherst.edu| Opening doors, Finally | And the song was exciting.
"Oh fantasy; Free me!!!"| Knowing the one that I | There was a time.
"I WILL do what I dream!"| wanted was yours." | Then it all went wrong."

Space Madness

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Jan 4, 1994, 2:25:06 AM1/4/94
to

Virginity is very much a state of mind; I have seen it work both ways.
An old friend considered herself to have lost it years ago, when, technically
she was a virgin in the sense that she had yet to have actual intercourse. It's
more a sense of innocence. She's about as innocent as I am a country music fan
(no offense to country fans. its just not MY style).

Yet, although I technically "lost it" almost two years ago, my close
friends (as in the ones I was comfortable enough to discuss sexual matterswith)
would joke that I was still a virgin. In that I still had the stereotypical
naive innocence. I had sex because I had been seeing someone with an over-
active sex drive (while I have a very low one - except when I HAVE been aroused
and nothing's been done about it for days... then I get ratehr antsy...) for,
as of then, over a year, and in the long run about 2 1/2 years... I really
didn't have a choice in the matter. He wanted it, so what the hell. Make him
happy.

Two friends in poarticular would laugh at me all summer though, because
I really did have the clueless outlook on sex just as if I had never done
anything. And, actually, that's how I felt. I was naive enough to be shocked
when on a first date with someone at the movies they tried to kiss me. Yet I
had, technically, done just about everything. And I had no clue what the fuck,
excuse the pun, what to do.

So it's really just a mindset. It depends on how one looks at things
and how one reacts. Who knows. Just my opinion.

Kalaria
Who, after a couple of years of sexual contact, finally has overcome, to some
degree, the virgin mindset.

Andrew McNaughton

unread,
Jan 5, 1994, 8:22:35 PM1/5/94
to
In article <2g23gj$5...@taki.nsict.org>, cl...@nsict.org (Clive Jones) wrote:

> In article <gauthm.7...@mistral.ERE.UMontreal.CA> gau...@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Gauthier Marc) writes:
> > The last time I saw my doctor and got tested for the HIV virus,
> >he told me that swallowing sperm wasn't really a vector in the propagation
> >of AIDS.
>
> Last time I heard anything on this subject (three years ago), opinion
> in the UK was that oral sex was relatively safe - the main danger
> being access to the blood stream such as chapped lips and mouth
> ulcers. These seem to be dangers for the person giving oral sex - I
> don't know whether they are also a risk for the person receiving it.
>
> You can, of course, get flavoured condoms...

I remember seeing something in new scientist quite a long time ago about
some enzyme or something of the sort which made saliva an unhospitable
environment for the HIV virus. This was supposed to be the reason why no
transmission via kissing had been recorded. Dunno how well it would
survive in the acid environment in the stomach. Getting the virus into the
bloodstream would seem to be the critical bit.

__________________________________________________________________________
|Andrew McNaughton | An answer went out in search of a question.
|hrp...@pnv.palm.cri.nz| -Kafka
|----------------------| The early worm gets the bird.

|Eternal flames |
|will be ignored. | Let's get one thing straight. I'm not.
__________________________________________________________________________

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