Something of interest from NPR
Steve Kelley
subscribers to this group might find it interesting.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17558400
Steve Kelley
axlq
I did find it interesting, but I didn't care for it.
The story starts out with ignorant atheist college kids being quoted
as thinking atheism is another type of religion (with phrases like
"Church of Atheism" and such). And then it implies that atheism
and Humanism are equivalent (although they are related), the latter
being a form of religion as well. The story attempts to make an
issue out of how big a problem this holiday season must be for
atheists, and attempts to underscore an apparent chasm between the
opinions of two camps.
I suppose an atheist can develop angst over the holidays, but
it isn't necessary given that this season has astronomical and
agricultural origins that pre-date most religions. You can
celebrate it however you want, and you can choose not to be offended
by music that happens to be inspired by religion.
In short, I found the NPR story to be a non-story.
-A
Ben Goren
> You can celebrate [Christmas] however you want, and you can
> choose not to be offended by music that happens to be inspired
> by religion.
This is a very, very important point regularly overlooked.
Most Christians have no trouble celebrating non-Christian
religious holidays such as Halloween. Indeed, every devout
Christian I've ever known with whom the topic has arisen has
expressed a great interest in attending a Seder at Pesach. There's
no sense that attending -- or even participating in -- somebody
else's religious festival will betray their own religion:
ultimately, the other religion is superstitious nonsense, so it's
all harmless fun, anyway.
Similarly, with rare exception, Christians have no problem with
non-Christian religious music. Indeed, just consider how many
Christians themselves have created towering operatic masterpieces
devoted to the glorification of Orpheus or the Teutonic gods.
So why would a Christian who would have no trouble joyously and
vigorously singing Offenbach's infamous cancan dance from Orpheus
in the Underworld, symbolizing the debauchery of the denizens of
the underworld...but /would/ instantly assume that a non-Christian
must be horrified at the mere prospect of singing, ``Away
in a Manger' or ``Joy to the World'' or Handel's Hallelujah
chorus? And, yet, that assumption seems to be missing from other
equally-Christian but less-well-known music, such as a Bach
cantata or a Gregorian chant.
It really makes no sense whatsoever to me.
Cheers,
b&
--
EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
``All but God can prove this sentence true.''
Allan Adler
> axlq wrote:
>
> > You can celebrate [Christmas] however you want, and you can
> > choose not to be offended by music that happens to be inspired
> > by religion.
>
> This is a very, very important point regularly overlooked.
I think I understood what axlq wrote but I am completely confused by
what you wrote.
First, you state some anecdotal information without context:
> Most Christians have no trouble celebrating non-Christian
> religious holidays such as Halloween. Indeed, every devout
> Christian I've ever known with whom the topic has arisen has
> expressed a great interest in attending a Seder at Pesach. There's
> no sense that attending -- or even participating in -- somebody
> else's religious festival will betray their own religion:
> ultimately, the other religion is superstitious nonsense, so it's
> all harmless fun, anyway.
You seem oblivious to the wide variety of points of view amont Christian
denominations, not to mention among Christians themselves. Some Christians
feel that the Old Testament applies to them as well as the New Testament
and conclude that they have to celebrate Passover. In fact, those are
the only Christians I've met who have wanted to celebrate Passover,
although I'm sure there are many more who, if they happen to be invited
to a Passover Seder by Jewish friends, would be interested in attending.
> Similarly, with rare exception, Christians have no problem with
> non-Christian religious music. Indeed, just consider how many
> Christians themselves have created towering operatic masterpieces
> devoted to the glorification of Orpheus or the Teutonic gods.
I've met Christians who would not consider attending music events that were
not sponsored by their church. There are certainly Christian ministers who
try to keep kids from celebrating Halloween. Christians have no monopoly on
this. When I was a kid, the Rabbi expressed his opinion to my "Sunday school"
class that we should not celebrate Halloween.
> So why would a Christian who would have no trouble joyously and
> vigorously singing Offenbach's infamous cancan dance from Orpheus
> in the Underworld, symbolizing the debauchery of the denizens of
> the underworld...but /would/ instantly assume that a non-Christian
> must be horrified at the mere prospect of singing, ``Away
> in a Manger' or ``Joy to the World'' or Handel's Hallelujah
> chorus?
You've conflated dozens of different Christian points of view in your
hypothetical Christian. Whatever trouble you might be having in
reconciling them, I think you have brought it on yourself.
And, yet, that assumption seems to be missing from other
> equally-Christian but less-well-known music, such as a Bach
> cantata or a Gregorian chant. It really makes no sense whatsoever to me.
What assumption? And how did you manage to attribute it to the music instead
of to the people who were appreciating it?
I don't know whether your problem is that you can't write clearly or that
you can't think logically or critically or that you just can't focus.
Whatever it is, it makes it a huge waste of time to read your comments.
--
Ignorantly,
Allan Adler <a...@zurich.csail.mit.edu>
* Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and
* comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston.
Bill Dukenfield
How about this one?
December 25, -6
Christ is born?
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history.do?action=Article&id=7122
JAM
Ben Goren
> I don't know whether your problem is that you can't write
> clearly or that you can't think logically or critically or that
> you just can't focus. Whatever it is, it makes it a huge waste
> of time to read your comments.
The problem would seem to be yours, in that you expect people to
post dissertation-level fully-cited research. The rest of USENET
is generally happy with casual observations.
No, I don't have any survey results to support the previous
sentence.
Allan Adler
> Allan Adler wrote:
>
> > I don't know whether your problem is that you can't write
> > clearly or that you can't think logically or critically or that
> > you just can't focus. Whatever it is, it makes it a huge waste
> > of time to read your comments.
>
> The problem would seem to be yours, in that you expect people to
> post dissertation-level fully-cited research. The rest of USENET
> is generally happy with casual observations.
If you want to prove that you really had something to say in the incoherent
posting of yours that I criticized, the way to do it is to reformulate clearly
what you had to say. If you are incapable of doing that, maybe someone else
can figure out what you were saying and explain it. As nearly as I can tell
from your writing, you have absolutely nothing to say, and I mean that
literally, in the sense that your writing is without discernible content.
It's not a matter of supporting your assertions with citations from the
literature; it is a matter of whether you can remember what you are talking
about by the time you get to the end of a sentence. If you can't meet that
very low standard, don't blame me for expecting too much from you.
axlq
Allan Adler <a...@nestle.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
>If you want to prove that you really had something to say in the incoherent
Allan, I understood him quite well. He was basically agreeing with
my post, and adding his opinions. I found it curious that you found
so much to pick apart in his post.
-A
Allan Adler
If you can explain in more detail what he is saying, I'd like to understand
it too.
mar...@gmail.com
I hear about Christians who only sing Christian music and only
celebrate Christian holidays, but the Christians I deal with (I live
in Ireland) do not limit their enjoyment of either music or holidays
in this way. I can honstly say I've never met a fundamentalist, which
is lucky for me I guess.
When asked by Christians (usually Catholic, sometimes Anglican) why I
celebrate Christmas I tend to talk about the long pre-christian
tradition of mid-winter festivals, etc. and how much of Christian
(especially Catholic) traditions and ceremonies were borrowed from
other religions and re-interpreted.
The question has never been put to me by a fundamentalist, which is
why I think the answer that Christians partake in Holloween is much
better. (The Irish widely believe that Holloween originated in
Ireland, I'm not sure how true that is. Although not a public holiday
here it is widely celebrated.)
In either case I will round up with the fact that giving and recieving
presents and being with your family and having some time off work is
nice no matter what you believe and to my mind much better without
superstition.
Paul Ciszek
Allan Adler <a...@nestle.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
>Ben Goren <b...@trumpetpower.com> writes:
>
>First, you state some anecdotal information without context:
>
>> Most Christians have no trouble celebrating non-Christian
>> religious holidays such as Halloween. Indeed, every devout
>> Christian I've ever known with whom the topic has arisen has
>> expressed a great interest in attending a Seder at Pesach. There's
>> no sense that attending -- or even participating in -- somebody
>> else's religious festival will betray their own religion:
>> ultimately, the other religion is superstitious nonsense, so it's
>> all harmless fun, anyway.
>
>You seem oblivious to the wide variety of points of view amont Christian
>denominations, not to mention among Christians themselves. Some Christians
>feel that the Old Testament applies to them as well as the New Testament
>and conclude that they have to celebrate Passover. In fact, those are
>the only Christians I've met who have wanted to celebrate Passover,
>although I'm sure there are many more who, if they happen to be invited
>to a Passover Seder by Jewish friends, would be interested in attending.
I know some Christians who had been interested in doing a Seder, just
once, to improve their understanding of the events of Holy Week. At
least, if you count Catholics as Christians. Anyway, they didn't
do it every year.
> And, yet, that assumption seems to be missing from other
>> equally-Christian but less-well-known music, such as a Bach
>> cantata or a Gregorian chant. It really makes no sense whatsoever to me.
Some American-style "Christians" would hear the strange chanting in
another language and leap to the conclusion that it was Satanic. I
knew an Evangelical who was creeped out by hearing a recording of
Beethoven's Choral Symphony (in German) for the first time.
--
Please reply to: | "One of the hardest parts of my job is to
pciszek at panix dot com | connect Iraq to the War on Terror."
Autoreply is disabled | -- G. W. Bush, 9/7/2006
Ben Goren
> Ben Goren wrote:
>
>> Allan Adler wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know whether your problem is that you can't write
>>> clearly or that you can't think logically or critically or
>>> that you just can't focus. Whatever it is, it makes it a huge
>>> waste of time to read your comments.
>>
>> The problem would seem to be yours, in that you expect people
>> to post dissertation-level fully-cited research. The rest of
>> USENET is generally happy with casual observations.
>
> If you want to prove that you really had something to say in the
> incoherent posting of yours that I criticized, the way to do it
> is to reformulate clearly what you had to say. If you are
> incapable of doing that, maybe someone else can figure out what
> you were saying and explain it. As nearly as I can tell from
> your writing, you have absolutely nothing to say, and I mean
> that literally, in the sense that your writing is without
> discernible content. It's not a matter of supporting your
> assertions with citations from the literature; it is a matter of
> whether you can remember what you are talking about by the time
> you get to the end of a sentence. If you can't meet that very
> low standard, don't blame me for expecting too much from you.
I'm sorry for confusing you. I'm sorry that being confused upsets
you.
May you learn enough to avoid confusion.
May you mature enough to avoid being upset.