explaining the facts of life to a 5 year old
Pramod
people who believe in a super-natural explation for things, and that
you personally don't think that its true. IMO, its important to not
force atheism down your kids throat. Belief in god is not a major issue
for most people (except the foolish proselytizers) and and as long as
kids grow to become sensible adults, their viewpoint on the god issue
is inconsequential.
Also, I've always felt that kids are a lot smarter than the adult
perception. (I understand this is a really vague sweeping
generalization, BUT ...) In my experience, rational arguments work much
better than "because I'm telling you to" and "because that is the right
thing" and so on.
In conclusion, I think you should definitely give the kid the "complete
truth and nothing but the truth".
Allan Adler
> In conclusion, I think you should definitely give the kid the "complete
> truth and nothing but the truth".
There is something wrong with formulating the problem in terms of a
"fixed point" (5 yrs old) in the life of a child. It suggests that
education about religion won't also take place at other times and that
it hasn't already. When I was four years old, I had already received a
certain amount of religious indoctrination from other kids at school,
without having any idea that it wasn't simply the truth. If, at the age
of 5, I had been told, as Pramod suggests:
> I think it is best to be honest, and tell kids that there are some
> people who believe in a super-natural explation for things, and that
> you personally don't think that its true.
I would have had no idea that it had anything to do with the religious
indoctrination I had already been given.
I think it is also an error to refer to "a supernatural religion" that
you don't happen to believe in. There are zillions of religions and you
don't happen to believe in any of them. Independently of the merits of
religion, I think there is value in knowing about different cultures and
different cultures often involve different religions. There are a lot of
ways that one can teach kids about the worlds past and present cultures and
a lot of them are fun. With such an approach, I think it is easier to make
the distinction between "what people do and believe" and what is actually
true (or what you believe). Let's call this the Disneyland approach. When
they're older, you can give them stuff to read about the Salem witch trials,
the trial of Socrates, the Scopes trial, the trial of Galileo, the Crusades,
the Inquisition, and generally the endless history of crimes committed in the
name of religion. You can also give them stuff to read about important,
beneficial social changes that have come about in part through the efforts
of people who did happen to believe in religions and who thought they were
behaving morally, as well as by people who happened to be atheists. That
should suffice to give some appreciation of the complexity of these issues.
When to expose kids to philosophy and logic and mathematics and the tools
they need to think critically about the specific claims of religions is
another matter. But the kind of general appreciation of cultures I described
above will at least provide a framework for a common sense approach.
Question: The Bharatiya Janata Party in India forced certain Buddhist
temples to install certain idols that the BJP thought were important to
have (it reminds one of the Roman Emperors who wanted to install idols of
the Emperor in Jewish temples). What is the policy of the BJP towards
atheists?
--
Ignorantly,
Allan Adler <a...@zurich.csail.mit.edu>
* Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and
* comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston.
Pramod
> Question: The Bharatiya Janata Party in India forced certain Buddhist
> temples to install certain idols that the BJP thought were important to
> have (it reminds one of the Roman Emperors who wanted to install idols of
> the Emperor in Jewish temples). What is the policy of the BJP towards
> atheists?
I doubt if they have a policy. IMO they're just a bunch of no-hopers
blurting out whatever they want to blurt out. (Thats common to all
Indian politicians - the advantages of a democracy!). The right wing
(which is mostly the BJP) are known to have quite a few nincompoops
who're dangerously close to fascism but while they do have a tremendous
noise quotient their actual support base is minimal and dwindling.
>From what I know about Hinduism, there's this concept of "Karma Yoga"
where a person attains nirvana but just performing his duties and
leading a life of moral probity - no religious obligations required.
This is not very different from atheism as I understand it. Moreover,
Swami Vivekananda (a major BJP favourite) has said that it is important
not to place religious beliefs on blind faith alone, and that rational
conviction is far more important. He even goes on to say that atheism
is far better than religion based on blind faith.I personally feel that
Hinduism is more of a way of life than a religion and hence atheism is
not inconsistent with it.
Allan Adler
> >From what I know about Hinduism, there's this concept of "Karma Yoga"
> where a person attains nirvana but just performing his duties and
> leading a life of moral probity - no religious obligations required.
> This is not very different from atheism as I understand it. Moreover,
> Swami Vivekananda (a major BJP favourite) has said that it is important
> not to place religious beliefs on blind faith alone, and that rational
> conviction is far more important.
Maybe you can clarify something for me. About 30 years ago, I looked at
the magazine published by the Hari Krishna people in the US. They had an
interview with their spiritual leader, in which he expressed the opinion
that India needed to return to the caste system so that "the best people"
could rule. I obtained the magazine from someone collecting money for them
in Port Authority Bus Terminal, who gave it to me for free in response to
my question about whether the Hari Krishna movement had any connection with
politics in India. After the rise of the BJP, I began to wonder whether there
was any connection between the BJP and the Hari Krishna movement in the US.
Do you know anything about that?
Also, do you know the answer to my question about whether there is still
a state of India that has a Communist government?
> He even goes on to say that atheism
> is far better than religion based on blind faith.I personally feel that
> Hinduism is more of a way of life than a religion and hence atheism is
> not inconsistent with it.
Hinduism existed, I think, before Buddhism, but was strongly influenced by it.
In Buddhist scriptures that I have read, the existence of gods is taken as
simply a fact, but no importance is attached to gods. They are just one
of many possible forms that sentient beings can assume. It is as though
Buddhism came along with its own message, irrelevant to the specific religious
beliefs of the population in which it found itself, and proceeded to "speak
to the Thessalonians in the language of the Thessalonians". I'm just wondering
whether the attitude you've described reflects the influence of Buddhism
on Hinduism.
John Brockbank
people who believe in a super-natural explation for things, and that
you personally don't think that its true. IMO, its important to not
force atheism down your kids throat. >
When they were fairly young, my children asked me about God, and I said
that whether or not there was a God, it made no difference to me, my
opinions, actions and behaviour, or anything else at all. When my daughter
was about 9 she wanted to go to church so I took my son and her to a morning
service. On the way home I asked whether that was it, or did she want to go
again (nope). (Of course the usual happened and they complained that I had
embarrassed them by singing too loud but that is the hazard of being a
Dad<g>). Later on, when they were teenagers, they asked me again and I
told them that I still thought God made no difference, so that things are
exactly as though God does not exist and so I conclude that I do not believe
because it is meaningless. Of course I also said that I knew no more than
them or anyone else about it.
Larry
news:1125569732....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> In conclusion, I think you should definitely give the kid the "complete
> truth and nothing but the truth".
>
>
You don't need to do anything. Kids are all born atheists. If you don't
terrorize them fantasy stories of horrible, but imaginary, places....if
you don't let theists in fancy robes or rags around their heads terrorize
them even worse, telling them what terrible beings they were born
as....if you can insulate them from this nonsense until they're around 10
and can start thinking logically for themselves.....they'll stay as
atheist as the day they were born, unless they fall under the spell of
some evil bastard later in life going after their property and money for
him/herself disguised as a religion.
We don't have to "teach" children there's nothing there. They can easily
see it for themselves if the horrible adults stay out of it.....
No Santa
No boogie man under their beds
No tooth fairy
No Monsters, Inc (tm) thinly veiled religious movies coming out of their
closet while they sleep
No Harry Potter, Pixies, Cheshire Cats, fantasy lands until they're old
enough to understand what a fantasy really is.....not drummed into their
heads by the fucking toy manufacturers and TV and video games as soon as
they are old enough to peer out over the edge of their baby carriers.
It nearly impossible in America. We want to start the superstition and
dumbing-down in their developing brains as soon as their eyes open to
make slave droids out of them.......with Mommy and Daddy's help, of
course.
I know atheist kids who got thrown out of a good Christian school in
kindergarten because they infected the Christers' kids with reason and
logic dispelling the horrible psychological abuse the Christers' kids had
gone through keeping them awake in the dark. Unaware they were exposing
their kids to atheist monsters, one Christian family let their 5 and 7
year olds stay over a weekend with the atheist monster kids...just 3
days! What they got back home was 2 kids no longer afraid to sleep in
total darkness, the 5-year-old no longer wetting the bed in fear for his
life...even in the dark...and 2 kids who no longer needed to be on
traquilizers before hauling them off to be terrorized by hell on Sunday
because they were "ruined" for brainwashing......just being around a
family who wasn't beating Jesus over their heads for a weekend.
Jesus camp my ass.........
.