Southeast Michigan Native American Crops
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
I am looking for a system of keeping people informed on my
progress as I research and acquire Native American Seeds of Southeast
Michigan Tribes for our Native American Heirloom agricultural plant
garden of the Southeast Michigan Land Conservancy's Organic Garden.
This might allow me to connect with several people at the same
time, and keep a standing record of what several sources said about
these plants, so that people might refer to what notes I made, and get
back with me on their progress as we look for Native American Heirloom
Corn, Beans, Squash, Sunflowers, etc. that would have been found
around Southeast Michigan by the first agricultural people living here.
This message is my first attempt at that. Afterwords, you will
see more messages.
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
I am kind of testing the system to see how it works, so bear with
me. This is my first reply.
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
The tribes that I am looking for seeds from are so far, the Miami,
Potawatomi, Kickapoo, Sac or Sauk, Meskwaki, and the Erie.
So far, I found out that the Meskwaki of southern Michigan are supposed
to have originated Kentucky Wonder beans through an internet article by
Frances B. King. I also heard alternately that the precursor to them
was probably Cherokee Trail of Tears, from Cindy Deardorff.
I found out that several years ago, the Sac and Fox tribes together had
a seed catalog. I am looking for it. e-mail me if you can get me a
copy.
I also found out that there is an Ohio Pole Bean that was collected at
Ft. Wayne Indiana in the 1790s and that all sorts of tribes were in the
vicinity at the time including the Kickapoo. William Woys Weaver's
impression is that the bean was shared among many Midwest groups and
that they all traded seeds more or less. And both the Delaware and the
Iroquois also grew it later on (by the 19th century) He goes on to say
that no one began collecting information on native foodways until later
in the 1800s, so it would be difficult to say one way or another that
such and such a bean was peculiar to this tribe or that. He also
states that the large encampments of Native Americans that he didn't
know why there were large encampments, but that the Quakers from
Baltimore went to Fort Wayne Indiana to meet with the Native Americans
and discuss the abuse of alcohol and taking land from native peoples,
and they brought back seeds. So this is another route to look into.
I contacted Richard Ford of U of Michigan and he said that the Museum
of Anthropology does not have viable seed from plants that were grown
by the Native tribes of Michigan. They have some examples of seeds,
but they are now dried up. I was told to learn more about crops grown
at the time of European contact and earlier to consult Richard A.
Yarnell ABORIGINAL RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN CULTURE AND PLANT LIFE IN THE
UPPER GREAT LAKES REGION. Anthropological Paper #23. Museum of
Anthropology, University of Michigan. He also states that some of
these plants are still grown on Walpole Island in Canada.
I was told by Cindy to research local history. To look for fur traders
and their logs. Historic Gardens. Historic Forts. The Michigan
Historical Society.
I contacted Fort Wayne Michigan (Yes Michigan, the other one, mentioned
earlier is in Indiana). Patience Nauta said that they are losing all
of their curatorial staff, and that they couldn't help me. She said
that the Fox, Miami, Huron, Wyandotte, Pottawatomi, Ottawa, and
Chippewa were there and that Detroit was the major crossing place, a
lot of tribes would have passed through there, but apparently there
wasn't much settlement until the French arrived in 1701 and Cadillac
encouraged the tribes to settle around the fort.
I found a paper on the Indians in the Great Lakes region at
http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/paleo-indian.html
Page 6 of this paper mentions what the Native Americans of the Great
Lakes raised. (this source might have come from Ohio, or been shared
with Ohio, because they have something exactly like it on the internet)
Multi-colored Indian corn, 8 and 10 row corn, kidney beans, navy or
pea beans, pinto beans, great northern marrow beans, yellow eye beans,
pumpkins, squash, melons, and other crops including turnips, cabbage,
parsnips, sweet potatoes, yams, "Irish" potatoes, onions and leeks were
all grown, among many nuts and berries. Anthony Wayne, whom Southeast
Michigan's Wayne county was named even gave recognition to the Indian
gardens. In particular, the Miami gardens, calling them beautiful.
Someone needs to look into the Indians of the Great Lakes region paper
to see who wrote it and what their sources were.
I have contacted someone through Seed Savers Exchange, this person is
in Michigan around Torch Lake. A.E.Lee Bothwell has limited quantities
of "Michigan Indian" a bean with a large eye tan with reddish
splotches, "Michigan Yellow Eye" and Charlevoix red kidney beans. We
are now unsure of where he got his beans from, but it would be nice to
propagate them anyway, to keep those strains of beans from
disappearing, particularly since they are from Michigan and might have
the slightest chance of being related to Michigan tribes.
Of forts, I was told by Kay McGowan, a Cherokee/Choctaw Native American
that I should look at Fort Malden in Amherstberg, Canada through their
archives. And to look for information reguarding local forts that
include Fort Detroit, Fort Gratiot, and Fort Wayne Michigan (which was
the last fort built). For information on these forts, she told me that
I could look at the Burton Historical Collection at the Detroit Public
Library, and that I would have to pay money to get them to give me
copies of documents that were found, and that it would take a couple of
weeks to get the copies back. Any help researching this stuff would be
greatly appreciated. I'm a farmer, not much of a historian. Too many
details bore me. This project is as much yours as it is mine. I
depend on everyone to get things done.
So far, I have some Miami Flour Corn from the Miami Tribe. Some beans
that are probably from the reservation of the Potawatomi (Potawatomi
Rabbit Pole beans - a type of cowpea). Some beans that are supposed to
have come from Seed Savers, that Seed Savers has no records of (I
traced these Miami/Potawatomi Pinto Pole beans from Cindy, to Rich
Williams, to Bob Quist, to Seed Savers to find that Seed Savers had no
record of their origin, or even of offering them at all). I also have
some Potawatomi Lima Pole beans that have supposed to have originated
with Prairie Tradewinds, but I can't find the company Prairie
Tradewinds to ask them where they got their beans from. Anyway, they
were supposed to have grown more agressively than they first grew for
Cindy, leading her to think that they might not be the same genetically
as she first found them. So I'm still looking for some better
Potawatomi LIma Beans.
Cora Baker, a Potawatomi that once lived in Wisconsin and Michigan had
some Potawatomi Lima Beans. Her family was not interested in carrying
on her gardening tradition, so she gave some to Peta Wakan Tipi in
Minnesota.
Peta Wakan Tipi, has some interesting varieties of plants, but you need
special permission to grow them. I e-mailed them to try to get a hold
of them, but they never got back to me. They had a Miami Green and
White Pumpkin's seeds, but they didn't grow them out, and now the seeds
will no longer grow for them. They are still looking for sources of
the Miami Green and White Pumpkin, as is the Miami tribe and I, so
please keep your eyes open.
I am growing squash from the Winnebago tribe. The Winnebago tribe was
once found in Southwest Michigan. It is as close to home as I have
found so far.
The Miami Tribe has an ancient squash found around some burial mounds
that they used to grow that they are looking for. This squash had a
pinkish flesh and was fairly big under the right conditions.
Anyway, keep your eyes open and let me know about your progress.
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
1) adapted to local climate
2) nutritionally supported the original people
3) a piece of local history brought back home
4) I wanted to taste what was originally here
5) to be a good steward and keep these seeds from disappearing
6) Native American Heirloom seeds depend on current and future
generations raising them to exist
7) The Three Sisters form a complete agricultural system each
contributing something to each other
8) They are non-genetically modified organisims (Non-GMO's) and are
known to be safe to eat.
9) They are rare seeds and are hard to find
10) Native American crops can be prepared in a variety of ways
11) Some of these seeds may have prehistoric origins
12) They are important to the cultures of Native American people, and
benefit all people
13) They need to be raised in specific ways to keep their uniqueness
(to not be hybridized)
14) Extinction and interbreeding is final
15) To keep a larger gene pool (remember the potato famine of Ireland)
16) To emphasize the relationship between man, nature and plants
17) to foster a relationship between man, nature and plants
18) to create interest and excitement in the plant, Native American,
and historical communities
19) some of these plants may have medicinal properties
20) the plants were passed on to many generations without special
greenhouses, lab techniques, growing conditions
21) The USDA currently has not logged and kept a complete record and
healthy living seed specimens of these seeds
22) Because Native American Gardens are reported to be beautiful by
historic documents (like Anthony Wayne's Journal which had references
to Miami Indian gardens)
23) to draw attention to Sustainable Agriculture
24) Our seed heritage resides in three places, the USDA seed bank,
small specialized seed companies, and small family farms, especially in
ethnic communities. These all are at risk. The USDA is subject to
periodic funding crises. Small specialized seed companies have low
market penetration, are labor intensive, and are subject to market
pressures. Small family farms are at risk from urbanization, rural
outmigration, and economic change. Multinational corporations are
replacing multi-crop fields with hybrids, and polluting open-pollenated
varieties with genetically modified crops.
25) We need to teach ourselves and our children that stewardship of our
seed resources is a community responsibility and begins at the local
level.
26) Heirlooms reproduce naturally
27) Hybrid seed is bred for longevity or disease resistance. They
don't reproduce naturally.
28) Some seed companies pass off hybrid seed as heirloom. True
heirlooms are generally not commercially available.
29) Unexpected varieties of plants appear, because heirlooms are
different
30) over 90% of our vegetable seed heritage has been lost since 1900,
due to loss of farms and rural communities
31) the rapid erosion of traditional indigenous cultures in the face of
war, migration, and ethnic cleansing has virtually eliminated prime
bioregional niches known as "Centers of Diversity."
32) Indigenous farmers once maintained a wealth of seed diversity to
counter unpredictable climate extremes, pest and disease outbreaks, and
provide for generous crop rotations to balance, maintain and feed the
soil, their livestock, and wildlife. The knowledge of varieties and
breeds was passed on from one generation to the next, sometimes through
ceremony or rituals to ensure wise use of resources
33) some people like Cora Baker, a Potawatomi have prayed for their
seeds to be passed on, because their families are not interested in
continuing farming their seeds into the future.
34) Heirloom corn needs isolation distances of 600ft to 1/2 mile to 2
miles to keep it pure (corn pollen can travel 9 miles), squash needs
1/8 a mile minimum and 1/2 to 1 mile for pure seed, and beans need 25
ft for home use and 150 ft for pure seed. Heirloom sunflowers require
1 to 1 1/2 miles for pure seed. This illustrates the importance of
keeping plants separate, so that they don't interbreed and become
something that they originally were not. This requires specialized
farming practices, including bagging, caging and taping flowers shut,
and planting species at special times to create favorable conditions
for maintaining the uniqueness of these species.
Hope this sheds some light on the subject.
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
donn...@comcast.net
Do you need to know what others are planting in the garden, so that you
then can be prepared to keep your seeds pure?
Donna
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
asking.
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
Jay Schlegel
Related question: do we know if the soybeans planted in the farm field are non-GMO? Organic? Would soybeans crosspollinate with bush/pole beans?
--Jay
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
other types of beans. So soybeans are not a problem.
It's just keeping the heirloom beans seperate by at least 150 ft.
from other beans that is an issue. This year I already planted beans.
Beans need to be replanted at least once every 3 years to grow, each
year losing some degree of germination ability. I planted beans from 3
different species (Phaseolus vulgaris, mystery cowpea, and Phaseolus
lunatus), with one of a different genus (a cowpea - ? mystery plant
-feel free to help me out plant experts out there) in the middle, to
prevent any crosspollenation.
Corn needs to be replanted every year. Staggered planting works
with corn. Planting Country Gentleman corn, or another sweet corn,
with a later growing season than Country Gentleman could be grown,
without complication, if the corn is planted once the rare Corn reaches
a certain height and stage of maturity.
I still need to find out how often squash seeds need to be planted
to still have viable seed.
I have heirloom Watermelon seeds from the Arikara Tribe (don't
know how often they need to be replanted to remain viable). But since
watermelons came over from Africa, with the (Spainish?) fur traders,
I'm not as concerned. Besides, these were grown by a North Dakota
tribe, and are not with the Michigan theme, as close to home as
possible, that I indended. It would be neat to find some more crops
that were originally raised by Native Americans around here, including
some trade item heirloom plants with Old World Origins that I've read
about.
Wendy already planted at least 1 watermelon plant, so any seed
saved by me for the Arikara Watermelon will not be pure. I'd have to
either buy some new seed, or see what new varieties are created in our
garden into the future. Arikara watermelons are supposed to be only 5
inches in diameter anyway, and very prolific (says 1 source). The
source that I got the seeds from says something different. She says
that they are 3 to 6 lbs and are very different from the melons grown
today. Who knows, they might not even be the same species as Wendy's,
and might not hybridize.
I have some Seneca Sunflower seeds, originally from the Seneca
tribe of New York. These could be grown, if anyone is interested, to
see what the original sunflower plants, as the Indians saw them, look
like. We couldn't keep any seed from them, since many people, in
particular, Jack, and myself, already plan on growing other sunflowers
that are not as directly original to the Native Americans. We could at
least see what they look like for 1 year only. Contact me if you would
like any of these seeds. (Sunflowers need isolation distances of 1 to
1 1/2 miles for pure seed)
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
Just wanted to let you know that I planted Midewiwin Sacred Tobacco,
that is of Ojibwa - "Anishnabe" origin. Please don't plant any other
tobacco, other than the one that I have, unless you have one of more
local origin than this one. I have seeds to share, if you want to
plant it also. I like the symbolism of tobacco. Giving something back
to the earth. Saying thanks. I give something back to the earth every
time I plant Native American Plants and native wildflowers, and harvest
them, and plant again. I try to increase the territory of beauty and
life, and share.
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
jay schlegel
certified organic and/or native/heirloom when I can. But as my primary
goal is to harvest crops for storage which I also know I like to eat, that
also influenced my choices.
Tomatoes, roma/paste (seedlings, still to be purchased at Farmers Market)
Peppers, bell/hot (seedlings, still to be purchased at Farmers Market)
Potatoes, unknown varieties, still to be purchased probably at Downtown
Home and Garden.
herbs: sage, rosemary, maybe others, seedlings still to be purchased
probably at Farmers Market.
Arikara sunflower, Seed Savers Exchange, organic.
Tarahumara sunflower, Seed Savers Exchange, organic.
nasturtium, black velvet, Seed Savers Exchange.
other native wildflowers, seeds or seedlings both from Native Plant
Nursery, still to be purchased (to fill-in along the fence).
buckwheat, cover crop, Seeds of Change, organic.
I will probably also try other cover crops such as crimson clover, medium
red clover, hairy vetch, hulless oats, winter rye, and maybe papago cow
peas. I will get something to fill-in for blueberries and blackberries,
which I will wait until next spring to plant. Vetch or rye can be used as
winter cover.
Beans (yes, I like beans):
Arikara yellow, Seed Savers Exchange, organic.
Jacob's cattle, Seed Savers Exchange and Seeds of Change (oops), organic.
Hidatsa shield figure, Seed Savers Exchange, NOT-organic.
Black turtle, Sow Organic, organic.
Pinto, Sow Organic, organic.
Bountiful stringless snap. Seeds of Change, organic.
Peas:
Blauwschokkers, blue-podded. Seed Savers Exchange, NOT-organic.
Green arrow, shell peas. Seed Savers Exchange, NOT-organic.
Oregon giant snow pea. Seeds of Change, organic.
Corn:
Golden bantam improved, Seed Savers Exchange, organic.
Triple play sweet corn, Seeds of Change, organic.
Squash:
Royal acorn, Seeds of Change, organic.
Butternut, Seeds of Change, organic.
Misc.:
Mesclun, Seeds of Change, organic.
Lettuce, Bibb Ferry Morse, organic.
Beet, Detroit dark red, Seeds of Change, organic.
Carrot, scarlet nantes, Seeds of Change, organic.
Carrot, danvers, Seeds of Change, organic.
Onion, newburg, Seeds of Change, organic.
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
How many days is the season on your Golden bantam improved corn
and your Triple play sweet corn? You might be able to plant it this
year. I need to know the details, so that I can find out exactly what
needs to be done to NOT have it bloom at the same time as my corn and
spoil the chances of keeping it pure.
Your beans will keep as well as mine. You might plant them next
year or the year after that. There even is a way to put them into the
freezer in sealed jars for longer storage, although, I have no
experience with this method, and it is generally accepted that bean
seeds need to be planted once every 3 years if they are not stored in
the freezer.
Here is what Bob Boomsma, Olds' Garden Seed Manager has to say
about squash. He says that
Interspecific extensive hybridization studies have been conducted with
these four species and several of the wild species.
Fertile Hybrids can be obtained between
C. pepo and C. moschata - (difficult)
C. pepo and C. argyrosperma
C. moschata and C. maxima (Kobacha squash)
C. moschata and C. argyrosperma (easy)
C. maxima does not cross with either C. pepo or c. argyrosperma
DEFINITIONS OF WHAT EACH SPECIES IS:
Cucurbita pepo (summer squash, zucchini, English marrows, delecatas,
ACORNS, spaghetti squash, scallops, Halloween type pumpkins, most small
gourds)
Cucurbita moschata (BUTTERNUTS, calabasa, tropical pumpkins, cheese
pumpkins, some cushaws, winter crooknecks)
Cucurbita Maxima (hubbards, delicious types, buttercups, bananas,
turbans, winter marrows)
Cucurbita agryrosperma (formerly C. mixta) (Some cushaws, many Mexican
land races)
IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTION WHATSOEVER ON WHAT SPECIES YOUR SQUASH IS,
PLEASE CONTACT THE MANUFACTURER AND ME, we will be more than happy to
help out. I contacted mine over the internet.
I was told that "If I were trying to grow out a pure crop of a heritage
variety, I would make sure thate were not any other squash taht might
cross-pollenate anywhere near my plot. In short, I wouldn't attempt
this in a community garden."
Well I want to try this out anyway, if you read above to the section on
Why I chose Native American Heirloom Seeds, you will see that it really
is a community responsibility to assure that it's gene pool is secured.
Many tribes have been pushed into inhospitable weather conditions very
unlike the conditions that they originally grew their crops on, and
many have been forced to switch to other hardier varieties (through
trade) to grow. Having any Native American Crops that are native to
our region is a blessing and they should be treated with respect. If
you know of any other gardens that are seperated by about a mile (or
more) on either side, that have space to grow these crops, please let
me know. If you find anyone else around southeast Michigan raising
these crops in a sustainable manner, please let me know.
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
To Jay - You can grow Golden Bantam Improved and Triple Play Sweet corn
if you promise to water my corn every time you water yours, and (I'm
still checking on this) you wait until at least after 18 days after my
corn reaches 10 inches in height. Also, if I can bag or rip off the
tassles of the corn if they make pollen before of during the time my
corn comes to pollen. Just to let you know, sweet corn is picked
before it matures, so it will grow just fine for you on a shorter
growing season.
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
PRESERVATIONISTS
I wish for:
1) the hours of the Baltimore Yearly Meeting where Elisha Tyson, part
of a Quaker delegation that obtained seeds from the Native Americans at
Fort Wayne in Indiana, some time in the 1790s. The Baltimore Yearly
Meeting is in Sandy Springs, Maryland and has a toll free phone number
of 1-800-962-4766 I'm looking for information on a bean called the
Ohio Pole Bean that might have been raised by the Kickapoo.
2) Trade lists and some fur trader notes from the collection at Fort
Malden in Amherstberg, Ontario. Look specifically for information on
Fort Detroit, Fort Gratiot, and Fort Wayne, Michigan. Trying to find
out what was grown here back then.
3) Trade lists and some fur trader notes from the Burton Historical
Collection at the Detroit Public Library. Look specifically for
information on Fort Detroit, Fort Gratiot, and Fort Wayne, Michigan.
Trying to find out what was grown here back then.
4) Contact Seed Savers (I already did this twice, with no success) and
try to find out information on "Potawatomi Beans" that Bob Quist
ordered from there, to find out where they came from. The phone number
for seed savers is 563-382-5990. Their address is
Seed Savers Exchange
3094 North Winn Rd
Decorah, Iowa 52101
5) To learn more about crops grown at the time of European contact and
earlier get a hold of a copy of Richard A. Yarnell ABORIGINAL
RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN CULTURE AND PLANT LIFE IN THE UPPER GREAT LAKES
REGION. Anthropological Paper #23 Museum of Anthropology, University
of Michigan
6) A copy of the Sac and Fox Tribe's Seed Catalog that was put out
several years ago.
any of the above information can be sent to
25945 Badger
Flat Rock, Michigan 48134
Thanks, I'll appreciate any help I can get!
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
jay schlegel
Well, given that this is set up as a community garden, your plan seems
unreasonable to me. One of your earlier emails even indicated that it was
unwise to attempt this in a community garden. To me, some reasonable
solutions are: 1) for you to monitor the situation with your plants and
respond accordingly (covering your crops at various times, as you
previously indicated that you planned to do), or 2) for everyone (not just
me, everyone - including the people who have already planted things but
have not yet emailed what they have planted) to plant exactly the same
crops as you are planting. Even if the latter is followed, which seems
problematic at this late date, there is no guarantee that someone within a
mile in any direction won't be growing some other variety of corn which
could cross-pollinate with yours. The only other option which comes to
mind is for you to plant your crops in some other part of the SMLC fields,
as far away from the community garden as possible. While this seems
unlikely for the current season, perhaps that could be done in the future.
The days-to-maturity for my two varieties of corn are 60-70 and 70-85 days.
While I can wait maybe another week or so to give you a headstart, I do not
plan to wait very much longer since I don't want to risk going late into
September before harvesting.
--Jay
> [Original Message]
> From: <awaywego...@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <SMLCgar...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: 5/27/2005 10:07:54 AM
>
>
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
that everyone was informed that I was trying to preserve Native
American Plants of Southeast Michigan Tribes. And that it was given at
least the silent okay that I could do this. I think that now is a good
opportunity to work on preserving Native American Plants that were
originally native to our region, and seldom seen here. I might let you
know that if my flour corn blooms at the same time as your sweet corn,
your sweet corn will taste like a starchy mush. Yes, I plan on
covering some of my corn with bags, to assure that some of it is
preserved for future planting, and using what uncovered corn that I
have for making corn bread, and tasting the food as it originally
tasted. I have some extra corn, if you would like to raise some flour
corn. I know who you can order some flour corn from if you wish to
order some of it, but it's probably a little too late to do this. You
certainly have a long list of what you want to grow. And most of it is
compatible to what I'm growing. Just 3 items are non-compatible out of
the many you listed. Corn, Beans, and Squash. You are welcome to grow
the same as I'm growing. The 3 beans that I chose are in 3 different
genus. I can give you the contact information to get them. I can also
give you the contact information for the squash and corn if you want
more of this type of corn. The isolation distances are not a mile for
each plant. I just mentioned that to give an example of what a nice
situation we have with the space around us, in that there is not a
large commercial operation that is growing out squash which I failed to
fully explain, but the isolation distances I mentioned in an earlier
message, so you can go back to it for reference.
In terms of growing corn the idea is to keep other corn that is
blooming at the same time as mine as far away as possible, so that
accidents don't happen and the corn pollen accidently be introduced to
the bag while introducing pollen to the bag when pollenating.
I'm all for planting my crops in another field next year, (so what
their is extra labor involved - I don't care about doing extra work to
keep things going positively) but as for now, everything except the
squash is planted.
As for the maturing dates, you don't eat mature corn, unless it's
flour corn. You eat the immature corn that is in the sweet milk stage.
You don't want to wait for it to mature, unless it is flour corn, it
gets starchy then. I figure it is better to have two different corns
both pure than to have one that tastes like sweet starch. We can do
this by doing our planting appropriately. WAITING IS APPRECIATED SO
THAT YOUR CORN WILL TASTE SWEET, AND MINE STARCHY. The fact that I
can't water slows my plants down and doesn't allow them to grow faster
and get much of a jump start on yours. And I see nothing wrong with
harvesting corn later, except that you have to wait a while longer. If
this is too much, I'll even buy you some ears of corn, to show my
concern for your problem. I feel if you delay your corn planting, it
will work out best for both of us.
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
Planting ACORN squash is fine. It is compatible with my plants (see
earlier note). Planting Pumpkins is fine. Planting zucchini is fine.
As long as, and this is the kicker. As long as they are Cucurbita
pepo, they are fine. We are not saving any C. pepo seeds this year.
AVOID PLANTING "BUTTERNUT" SQUASH. It is a C. moschata which is
incompatable with my Winnebago Squash, which is the closest to home
squash that I have. (the Winnebago tribe was once found in Southwest
Michigan according to some internet source that I found) THIS SQUASH
WILL ALTER THE PURITY OF THE WINNEBAGO SQUASH THAT I AM GROWING.
Beans, according to Ira at Southern Exposure Seed Exchange states that
"Beans need at least 25 ft for home use and 150 ft for pure seed" and
Clemson recommends at least 10 ft isolation distance between bean
varieties, and some so called professional bean growers say there is no
isolation distance. I'd like to have pure seed to pass on and grow. I
do have a couple of extra pole Lima beans, Jay, that I could share with
you if you want to try to grow them (I was recommended to grow them 1
per pole, and I have, MAYBE 20 beans left).
Jack, if you have any questions about squash, or whatever, ask me on
this web site! I'm writing these memo's so that people can keep up
with what's going on, on the farm. Is it also possible for me to
inform the other people in the garden of what's going on at the farm in
terms of trying to preserve heirloom Native American Crops that are as
original to the Southeast Michigan's original tribes, as possible?
Maybe a note in the newsletter?
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
P.S. Jack, do you have the reciept on the butternuts? Maybe you could
return them, or I could for you, or I could give you my squash seeds to
plant on my plot which is already prepared for the seeds, with the only
condition being that I get some seeds for growing in the years to come.
I really do need to know what other people are planting in terms of
Corn, Beans, and Squash!
jay schlegel
To my knowledge, three people have already planted butternut squash, myself
included. I will pass on the offer to plant your lima bean seeds -- I do
not like lima beans, sorry.
--Jay
awaywego...@sbcglobal.net
Good news. I found out from Cindy from Indiana that:
"I think this will work for you.
If you are planting shorter day corn, you
could plant as soon as Miami corn was 8 inches tall.
Both of you should get a crop.
A lot depends on weather conditions.
We are so very dry here. I will have to
start watering real soon." - Cindy
ANDREW BUCIENSKI
P.S.
Everyone,
I'm trying to grow a pure strain of corn, beans, and squash. You
should know what is going on, if we are to preserve any varieties of
plants that are different from those bought in the stores and catalogs,
like the standard butternut squash. Would the three people who planted
butternut squash, reconsider replanting with acorn, or zuchinni squash
to allow me the opportunity to save these rare seeds from extinction.
Seed saving people and organizations are trying to preserve older
heirloom varieties of plants from extinction. I realize that the 3
people who have planted butternut squash have gone to some trouble in
the planting of the butternut squash. I also have gone to the same
amount, if not more trouble, to locate and plant heirloom varieties
native to Southern Michigan. I know it is asking a lot, but if you
could find it in your heart to replant your butternut squash with
zuchinni, or acorn squash, it would greatly help to preserve a valuable
heirloom variety for future generations. If you need new seeds, or
plants, to help you in this replanting, please let me know so that I
can help you. I'm dedicated in purpose to help preserve something that
probably will be lost for future generations. I hope that you will be
able to help and understand why I am asking for your help on this
project. I'm not trying to take an undue share of the harvest, I'm
only trying to preserve the purity of these seeds, and vegetables,
which are not available at the supermarket. I have offered and still
offer to share the squash that I'm growing, for you to try, and only
ask that you save the seeds, and return them to me, so that I can
continue to work to save these heirloom seeds. I'm sorry that it is
necessary for me to ask you to not grow the butternut squash variety.
And hope that you will understand my delemma. I am not trying to make
any problems for you or anyone else, I am only trying to help preserve
something that will be lost, unless someone makes an effort to save
them. You'll be able to try something much different from what you get
in the stores. Let's protect what has been traditionally grown locally
by local people as an heirloom to be preserved for future generations.
Let's preserve historical Southeast Michigan vegetables, and get a rare
glimpse into what traditional foods originally tasted like. In the old
days, people used to preserve seeds. Today, a lot is lost, since we
just buy them from catalogs, or on store shelves. Over 90% of our
vegetable heirloom seeds have been lost since 1900 due to loss of farms
and rural communities. This is an opportunity for land conservation
people to really speak up for the preservation of rare species that
depend on us for their continued preservation. This is the purpose of
this project, and I hope you will share in this effort. Please let me
know if this is still a problem, as I need your support. Thanks for
whatever you can do to help.
Jay Schlegel
In general, let me say that these discussions should have been undertaken long before anyone began planting, as it seems to conflict with the very definition of a community garden (at least as I understand it). But that is now water under the bridge. Several of the seeds that I have chosen are also of an heirloom variety and hence are no less important for future diversity than yours are (however my squash are not heirloom). My primary goal was not seed-saving (since I do not have control over what others plant in the community garden), but I have saved seeds in the past and may try to do so this time as well.
Re: squash. Before anyone runs out and yanks their butternut plants/seeds out of the ground, I think we should try to find a solution where the butternut-growers get to keep their plants and you get to grow your squash in isolation. Since I believe you have not yet planted your squash, perhaps it could be planted somewhere else on the SMLC properties? Could it be planted in the already-tilled ground near the metal shed, since squash does not need quite the isolation distance that say corn needs? Can you not also manually pollinate the flowers and close/bag them, as I think you previously suggested?
I would be interested in trying one of your squash when it is harvested, but since it is an unknown quantity to me taste-wise I do not want to plant it in my plot. Like the lima beans, I do not want to end up with a harvest-full of squash which I (potentially) do not want to eat.
--Jay