Regional Dialects

[C Hatala]

When my family and I were growing up we refered to my grandfather as Dzedo. I've understood it that many Slovaks use 'dedko'. Is this a more regional dialect of Slovak or something else?

Sometimes when asked him questions, he would sometimes speak in Russian as well. He was born in 1914. I'm positive he was speaking Russian and not Ukranian, but was curious as to how he may have been exposed to it. He is from the Lucky, Michalovce area, near the Ukranian border.

Thanks for any thoughts or feedback you might have!

[Regina Haring]

We always used dzeda and also heard what sounded like"dzakujem",  And the greeting was what sounded like "yak se mas"?  Never anything like "ako" sa mas. Both my mother's and father's families were from the east, toward Kosice.

This is a very nice little tutorial

http://blog.timeforslovakia.com/25-useful-slovak-phrases-you

Dobru noc

Regina Rabatin Haring

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[B. J. Licko-Keel]

This is interesting--jak se maš is actually Czech and means the same as the Slovak ako sa maš. As a child, I grew up in a Chicago neighborhood that was predominantly Czech, so I picked up some words in addition to the Slovak I spoke at home. Strangely, my father (from the northeastern part of Slovakia) also favored this pronunciation, and my mother (born near Martin and very proud of her "proper" Slovak) would always stop and correct me whenever I used this word if I was not speaking correctly. Dialects are interesting and seem to occur within most language groups, including English.

B. J.

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B. J. Licko-Keel (BJ...@aol.com)

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Count your friends, not your foes.

(Traditional Irish Blessing)

[James Dubelko]

Well, I was told somewhere along the line that the "yak sa maš" greeting in our family from eastern Slovakia reflected the Polish dialect in the region.  The Polish expression "jak się masz" seems very similar.

Jim Dubelko

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[Martin]

grandfather as Dzedo. I've understood it that many Slovaks use 'dedko'. Is this a more regional dialect of Slovak

European languages have many more dialects than American English, even more so in mountainous countries like Switzerland and Slovakia. Standard Slovak is based on Central Slovak dialects with a mixture of West Slovak features. The Standard Slovak sounds [ď] and [ť], which don't exist in English, are pronounced as [dz] and [ts] in most East Slovak dialects and some dialects in the extreme south-west of the country. The common nickname for grandfather, starý otec (literally, "old father" in Slovak), is dedo, pronounced [ďedo]. That ends up being dzedo in East Slovak. Other examples: deti [ďeťi], "children," is [dzetsi], hodiť [hoďiť], "to throw," is [hodzits] in East Slovak, etc.

I'm positive he was speaking Russian and not Ukranian

The language of a minority in the region (but a majority not far to the east of his village, in what became Sub-Carpathian Rus when Czecho-Slovakia was formed in 1918) was Rusyn. See a map of the historical distribution of Rusyn majority areas in the area of the Kingdom of Hungary that became Slovakia (the areas have mostly shifted to Slovak majority areas by now). Some of the Rusyn schools taught a version of Church Slavic used by the Eastern Orthodox Church of Russia.

But you need to decide, Chad, whether what he spoke was Russian or Rusyn. For instance, "I don't know" sounds as [ya nyeynayu] both in Russian and in Rusyn, it is (ya) neznam in East Slovak (and neviem in Standard Slovak0 -- see more about the similarities and differences below.

With historically related languages, we must not assume that because a word occurs in one language, therefore it must belon only to that language. Related languaes have similar and identical words because they developed from a common ancestor language. For instance, the words for "mouse" and "house" sound the same in English and German (they both developed from a common language, Old Germanic), but it would not make sense to say that they therefore are, e.g., "German words" in English. The English language kept them from Old Germanic, not from German, just as German kept them from Old Germanic, their common ancestor.

jak se maš is actually Czech

"yak sa maš" greeting in our family from eastern Slovakia reflected the Polish dialect

It is neither from Czech, nor from Polish. Each of the three languages, Slovak, Czech, and Polish, inherited many words and a lot of their grammar from their common ancestor, Old West Slavic. Just like English and German inherited house and mouse (see above) from a common ancestor language.

First, the Slovak Ako sa máš, and the corresponding Czech and Polish versions, do not mean "How are you," which is used in English as a highly formalized extension of a greeting, must be given a positive answer or no answer at all, and is also commonly used when two people are introduced to each other.

Not so in Slovak, Czech, Polish. In those languages, it means "How have you been since we met some time ago?" It, therefore, cannot be used with strangers, can be used only when we haven't seen the person for at least a week o more (i.e., no "Good morning, how are you" when people arrive at work each morning), and we must be interested in spending time to listen to what the person has experienced.

Now to the use, Standard Slovak uses Ako sa máš. The East Slovak (not "Polish") version of the same phrase is Jak še maš, the South-West Slovak (not "Czech") version of the same phrase is Jak se máš. That they happen to be similar to or identical with the same phrases in the other two languages is a result of all of them keeping and modifying the words and grammar of the phrase from the period of the Old West Slavic language, the common ancestor of Slovak, Czech and Polish.

[Eric 60]

I love these dialects. 

[Eric 60]

Dakujem. I study both Russian and Polish. I seem to understand more Slovak than Czech.  This is a great discussion.

[Martin]

I seem to understand more Slovak than Czech.

Yes, Eric. There's some anecdotal evidence that by comparison to some other Slavic languages (Croatian, Russian, Czech, Bulgarian, Polish, etc.), Slovak is easier to understand by speakers of other Slavic languages. Slavs can understand each other on some very basic level, the more so the more closely related their languages are (there are three major subgroups of the Slavic languages -- West Slavic: Slovak, Polish, Czech, Lusatian/Sorbian; East Slavic: Rusyn, Belarusian, etc.; South Slavic: Slovenian, Croatian, etc.) Speakers of Slavic languages sometimes observe that they can understand Slovak better than other languages from subgroups that do not contain their native language.

Anecdotally, a Polish woman related to me a funny experience from a conversation among her, a Slovak, and a Bulgarian. The Polish woman understood the Slovak quite well (the two languages are from the same subgroup, the West Slavic languages). But the Bulgarian (that language is in the South Slavic subgroup), while she was able to grasp what the Slovak was saying, hardly understood what the Polish woman was saying, got quite upset, and accused the Polish woman of not speaking clearly enough. That wasn't the case. The Polish woman was speaking slowly and clearly (she knew how, was a teacher), but Polish is more difficult to understand than Slovak for a Bulgarian, no matter how slowly Polish is spoken.

Slovak, unlike the other West Slavic languages, has some South Slavic features and, as I said, is sometimes said by speakers of other Slavic languages to be easier to understand for them without learning than other Slavic languages that are not in their own subgroup.

[Eric 60]

Yes, indeed. I've studied Russian for more than 30 years now, Polish for less. I can speak a hybrid in Slovakia and get by. Crossing the Slovak Hungarian border I want a stamp in my passport. So, I said something like Dyelaete shtamp v passportcie, prosim. He smiled and gave the stamp.  Czech is more distant, at least for me. I don't get all the nuances in Slovak, but most of it. Funny thing with the Southern Slavs, I don't understand much Bulgarian. Once in Germany, I tried to help someone out from the former Yugoslavia, I can't remember where, but it went no where. 

I should be in Bratislava in less than a month. 

[Martin]

I should be in Bratislava in less than a month.

Have a good time there, Eric.

I don't understand much Bulgarian.

During the centuries under the Ottoman Empire, which brought the influence of Turkish (not a Slavic language), Bulgarian changed in a different direction from the other Slavic languages. Like English, it has lost grammatical cases and expresses most of the corresponding meanings with prepositions.That's among the main reasons why the Department of State places Bulgarian in a lower category, i.e., easier to learn for the U.S. personnel to be posted there, than all the other Slavic languages.

Like English, Bulgarian also developed definite articles which it places, like neighboring Romanian (not a Slavic language), after the noun. For instance, for either the English "the river" or "a river" the Slovaks commonly say just rieka (that's the reason for the missing articles when some Slovaks and other Slavs speak English). If they really want to show that it's "the river," not "a river," they can, but need not say tá rieka, which is like saying "that river," or táto rieka, "this river," in English. The corresponding Bulgarian word is reka, and when the Bulgarians say rekata, it is exactly their equivalent of the English "the river."

[Julie Wininger]

Martin, I always learn so much from your posts!

I once had a friend from Persia (Iran, but he called it Persia), who spoke English very well. However, he never used definite articles (used to drive me crazy).

In English today, I think there is one notable exception to using definite articles. I often hear people on the news say "They took him to Hospital" not to "a Hospital" - every time I hear that, it reminds me of my Persian friend.

Julie

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[Helen Fedor]

Julie,

That's British English.

Helen

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[C Hatala]

Martin,

First- Thank you for the super informative reply! It is just what I was looking for.

This certainly resonated with me: "we must not assume that because a word occurs in one language, therefore it must belong only to that language. Related languaes have similar and identical words because they developed from a common ancestor language". Especially when given the example of "deti [ďeťi], "children"" which is very similiar to the Russian: дети. This was immediately the first thing I thought of as I am in the process of learning Russian myself. Hopefully, through ancestral records I could more easliy determine whether it was in fact Russian or Rusyn. Given what you have gone on to say about the sub-carpathian region, is it plausible that people in the area would have learned both languages or more specifically bits and pieces in order to facilitate trade and the local economy? Was it common for people in the area to speak more than one language?

Thank you so much for providing that historical context as well as the map. It will certainly come in handy!

[James Dubelko]

Martin,

Thank you so much for that explanation.  

Jim Dubelko

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[Martin]

Glad if it is of interest, Chad, Julie, Jim.

Was it common for people in the area to speak more than one language?

 Yes, not only in the area but in the whole Kingdom of Hungary, specially among the native speakers of languages other than Hungarian. Some details are in this thread:

http://tinyurl.com/ycfyv6d5

whether it was in fact Russian or Rusyn

Although not impossible in principle, chances that it was Russian are quite slim. Russian was no one's native language in the kingdom, Rusyn was. And Russian was not taught in schools, except the rare instances when a Rusyn school taught Church Slavic (which was not a living language -- somewhat comparable to an imaginary American grade school torturing kids with the language of the King James Bible as the model they're supposed to apply when writing). Moreover, given that your grandfather, Chad, was born in 1914, it would have to have been his parents who learned it. Where did he go to school for how long -- in Czechoslovakia or in the U.S.?

There was no concept of a Rusyn identity in the U.S. until later in the 20th century. For instance, the 1978 Oscar-winning movie, "The Deer Hunter," was about Rusyns, but the film identified them as Ukrainians. A small area in Pittsburgh, called informally "Russian Hollow," was in fact a Rusyn area. The 1910 U.S. Census listed a lot of Russians in Homestead (Pittsburgh), but they were all Rusyns from the Kingdom of Hungary. Etc.

[Michael Mojher]

Since you brought up Slovak dialects I thought you might enjoy a map of them. http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.htm

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[Michael Mojher]

The Ukraine did not become an independent country until 1991. Before Bolshevik revolution is was part of the Russian Empire. After WWII part of the Soviet Union. Your village, Lucky, is located near the Slovak-Ukraine border. So it would not be unusual for him to be exposed to the Russian language.  

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[Michael Mojher]

Martin,

              Thanks for verifying what I was told, “Slovak is a language all Slavic speakers can understand.”

              My mother worked as a “lunch lady” for the school district. Any time a child that only spoke a Slavic language began school she was called upon to speak to them in Slovak. She became known as “Panny Jo”.

 

From: slova...@googlegroups.com <slova...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Martin
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2018 7:28 AM
To: Slovak Spot <slova...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [Slovak Spot] Regional Dialects

 

I seem to understand more Slovak than Czech.

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[m.r.v...@gmail.com]

> village, Lucky, is located near the

> Slovak-Ukraine border. So it would

> not be unusual for him to be exposed

> to the Russian language.

No, Micahel, it would have been very unusual. The border you’re talking about didn’t appear there until the Soviet Union annexed a big chunk of eastern Czechoslovakia after WW II. Before that, the Russian border was so much farther east that Czechoslovakia didn’t even border on Russia.

Not quite a million people east of Chad’s village, in Sub-Carpathian Rus, spoke Rusyn, not Russian. 

[Michael Mojher]

Thanks for the correction.

Michael

 

From: slova...@googlegroups.com <slova...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of mar...@votruba.us
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 2:50 PM
To: slova...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Slovak Spot] Regional Dialects

 

> village, Lucky, is located near the

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[C Hatala]

Martin,

It seems the plot has thickened!

I misspoke about my grandfather. He was born in Pennsylvania. His brother who was 3 years older, was born in Czechoslovakia. However, I was able to track down a draft card for my great-great grandfather today. He was born in 1887 in what is listed as Bersoce, Hungary. I have been able to find almost no information about Bersoce. I would like to note however, that from the time they left the old country, to the time they immigrated they all held various jobs as steelworkers. The family did spend some time in the Pittsburgh area, or more specifically Washington County. They eventually settled in the Holidays Cove area of the northern panhandle of WV which became Weirton. Weirton would eventually go on to become one of the larger steel operations in the area, as well as the film location for what was "The Deer Hunter".

My grandfather attended school at 'Follansbee High School' in WV. Long before it became a middle school. In all honesty, his english was never great and I'm not sure it had to be. All of his buddies in the mill spoke Slovak or another Slavic language, so outside of his schooling, english was low on the priority list of 'necessities'. I'm about 70% sure it wasn't even spoken at home for him until he started dating and had children of his own. Their mother (my grandmother), spoke english much more fluently, as her family immigrated from an english speaking country.

The tribal nature of things here has got my mind in a knot. Specifically because the family always identified as 'Slovak', never Czech. Strangely enough at the same time, they always referred to 'home' as Czechoslovakia. Never Slovakia. Even after the Velvet Revolution.

Does anyone have any insight as to where Bersoce would have been within the Austrian-Hungarian empire?

Thanks again Martin!

[C Hatala]

**Additional**

I also wanted to add to the last post I made here that my grandfathers brother who was born in Czechoslovakia was born in Bezovce. I'm not sure if this is the same as Bersoce, Hungary....

I mentioned Lucky, Michalovce in my earlier posts, becuase that seems to be where all their local church records are. As I understand it, Bezovce is on the same side of the country. I'm not sure how far it is from Lucky. exactly. Either way, it still sort of falls in line with my grandfather speaking that their villiage was very close to the Ukranian border...I suppose it's just a matter of what village exactly at this point!

[Michael Mojher]

There was a village that comes close to Bersoce, Bercseny. It names though its history are: Svinná TN/TC trenč. po 1913 pričl. o. Malá Neporadza.

1773 Svinna, Swinna, 1786 Swinna, 1808 Szvinna, Swinná, 1863–1902 Szvinna, 1907–1913 Bercsény, 1920 Svina, 1927– Svinná.

 

Now known as Svinna - http://www.cisarik.com/0_Svinna_Trencin_TC_Trencsen_Trencin.html

 

From: slova...@googlegroups.com <slova...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of C Hatala
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 5:03 PM
To: Slovak Spot <slova...@googlegroups.com>

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[Michael Mojher]

Bežovce SO/KI užhorod.

1773, 1786, 1863–1913, 1939–1945 Bező, 1808 Bezö, Bezowce, 1920–1939, 1945– Bežovce

 

Bezovce is its newest name, since 1945. Most often known as Bezo.

 

From: slova...@googlegroups.com <slova...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of C Hatala
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 6:00 PM
To: Slovak Spot <slova...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Slovak Spot] Re: Regional Dialects

 

 

**Additional**

 

I also wanted to add to the last post I made here that my grandfathers brother who was born in Czechoslovakia was born in Bezovce. I'm not sure if this is the same as Bersoce, Hungary....

 

I mentioned Lucky, Michalovce in my earlier posts, becuase that seems to be where all their local church records are. As I understand it, Bezovce is on the same side of the country. I'm not sure how far it is from Lucky. exactly. Either way, it still sort of falls in line with my grandfather speaking that their villiage was very close to the Ukranian border...I suppose it's just a matter of what village exactly at this point!

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[Martin]

Bezovce is on the same side of the country. I'm not sure how far it is from Lucky

Such information is easy to find on Google Maps, Chad:

https://goo.gl/maps/CKngURBg5rr

Most often known as

I would not be surprised if Chad's record of "Bersoce" were the same as Bežovce that Michael usefully found references to. Let me just clarify that a place name in old records from the Kingdom of Hungary is not the same as the name of the place.

The Kingdom had no single official name for each of its municipalities until 1895. The languages of the Kingdom had their own names for municipalities, each of which was legitimate. The most "real" one was, of course, the one used by the locals. Bežovce has been a Slovak village for as long as its inhabitants ethnic identity can be determined or estimated.

Any preserved document merely records whatever the scribe happened to write. So while Bežovce may have been recorded in a particular version more often than in another one, when we want to talk about what it was actually called, "known as," we need to say that its original, local name was based on and has continuously remained based on Bežov-, from the start through the present. Click on the place names in the Kingdom of Hungary for more details.

To apply it to Bežovce, its first record comes from 1214 as Blezanalaza. The first record usually means that the settlement is older than that (sometimes by hundreds of years). The next record, as Bezeu, is from 1286. Etc. The second one is obviously linked to its current name. At that time, the Slovaks pronounced their -v-'s as [w]s. The end of the spelling Bezeu clearly represents the pronunciation [ew]. It became Bežev- after most Slovak [w]s changed to [v]s about 700-800 years ago. The ending -(ov)ce, as in Košice, Michalovce and many other place names especially in eastern Slovakia but also elsewhere, meant something like "the people of."

When Hungarian adopted Slovak place names containing the old -ow-, it commonly rendered the two sounds as one longer -ó-. That's why, e.g., Liptov County is Liptó in Hugarian, Novohrad County, which comes from the Old Slovak Now Grad ("New Castle," it would be Nový Hrad in Modern Slovak), is Nógrád in Hungarian, etc. The last vowels in Bezó and Bező are sometimes variants of each other in Hungarian (and Hungarianized) place names.

[Michael Mojher]

Bezovce to Lucky is 29.4 km, a 36 minute drive. From ViaMichelin.

 

From: slova...@googlegroups.com <slova...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Martin
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 5:34 AM
To: Slovak Spot <slova...@googlegroups.com>