I am disgusted at Poly's CSC Department
Christopher Ambler
someone from Cal Poly's CSC department to read this.
My girlfriend is currently in CSC 218. She has been struggling with the
latest assignment. I read over the assignment, and then asked her if she
had been taught some key points in C++, namely, how to pass a 2-d array,
pointers, class data items (data abstraction), the use of global variables
vs. local, and putting variables in a .h file, thereby causing multiple
declarations. (yes, some of these are basic skills and some are common
mistakes).
She said that she had been taught none of it. Furthermore, some of the
methods that she was using were atrocious. When I tried to point out why,
she claimed that the instructor of her 218 class told her to do it this
way.
Cal Poly CSC Dept., what is WRONG with you?
You are not only failing to teach fundamentals of the language, you are
teaching them INCORRECTLY, and expecting your students to complete
assignments for which they HAVE NO WORKING KNOWLEDGE OF THE COMPONENTS
NEEDED! You are encouraging bad programming practices in those cases
where the program is achievable, and creating serious frustration in the
rest of the cases where it is not.
I am beyond thoroughly disgusted. My girlfriend is WASTING her money
taking this class. I am *this* close to coming down to Cal Poly and
visiting her instructor personally to find out how addled he really is.
The amount of actual knowledge imparted in both her 118 course last
quarter and 218 this quarter could be taught, BETTER, in an afternoon.
This situation is pitiful, and I invite a response.
--
(C) Copyright, 1996 Christopher Ambler,
Director, Punknet Internet Cooperative, San Luis Obispo, California
http://www.punk.net/~chris - My fabulously wondiferous home page
http://www.rhps.org - Zen Room Presents the RHPS.ORG web site!
John James Reeve (IV)
I just completed 118 and 218. Before taking these classes I had no
knowledge of c++. I had no idea what it was. But I have learned it
pretty well at Poly. I understand it completely, and yes, we were taught
about 2d arrays, pointers, local and global variables, classes, and .h
files. I had Lois Brady for both courses. A lot of students in our
class said they were not taught some of the prerequisite material needed
to take 218. So maybe they had the same teacher as your gf?
Just my opinion...
John Reeve - Art & Design - Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
jre...@oboe.aix.calpoly.edu
Jason Lee
>who is the professor?
>I just completed 118 and 218. Before taking these classes I had no
>knowledge of c++. I had no idea what it was. But I have learned it
>pretty well at Poly. I understand it completely, and yes, we were taught
>about 2d arrays, pointers, local and global variables, classes, and .h
>files. I had Lois Brady for both courses. A lot of students in our
>class said they were not taught some of the prerequisite material needed
>to take 218. So maybe they had the same teacher as your gf?
Quite simply, the measure of what needs to be taught in certain courses is
either not well defined, or not defined at all. There are quite a few
professors who have to repeat material that some students have seen before,
and some professors who assume knowledge of material that some students have
never seen before.
I know it's not that difficult to sit down and decide EXACTLY what needs to
be taught in what courses. I don't understand why they don't do it.
Another of my many number of beefs about the CSC department.
JLee
--
| Jason Lee jp...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu |
| "Branca throws. There's a long fly... it's gonna be, I believe... |
| THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT, THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT, THE GIANTS..." |
| [The Shot Heard 'Round the world] Russ Hodges, October 3, 1951 |
adam
>
>She said that she had been taught none of it. Furthermore, some of the
>methods that she was using were atrocious. When I tried to point out why,
>she claimed that the instructor of her 218 class told her to do it this
>way.
>
Examples?
--Adam
--
ad...@l4.eorbit.net E g b c
A M R ! i a k
E L I : I E v t !
R C M N e i
adam
> I had Lois Brady for both courses. A lot of students in our
>class said they were not taught some of the prerequisite material needed
>to take 218. So maybe they had the same teacher as your gf?
>
Dr. Brady is an excellent teacher. I've seen many people go nuts
meeting her requirements (exact pre/post conditions in comments,
etc...), but you come out _knowing_ your stuff.
If you get a chance to take her theory of computing or algorithms
classes, I highly recommend it.
Clint Staley is also a good teacher to take. Anyone remember seven
implementations of the grid code? :)
There are certainly teachers to avoid. I won't mention names, but
"IBM, Very Powuhful". Nuff said?
Robert Francis Christensen (The Great Robholio)
: who is the professor?
: I just completed 118 and 218. Before taking these classes I had no
: knowledge of c++. I had no idea what it was. But I have learned it
: pretty well at Poly. I understand it completely, and yes, we were taught
I used to not be able to spell C++, but now I are a programmer.
Thank you Cal Poly(tm)!
--
******************************************************************************
* Robert Francis Christensen / \
* Industrial Engineering <o>
* Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo /_|_|_\
* http://www.calpoly.edu/~rchriste /_|_|_|_|_\
******************************************************************************
Christopher Ambler
>Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>>
>>She said that she had been taught none of it. Furthermore, some of the
>>methods that she was using were atrocious. When I tried to point out why,
>>she claimed that the instructor of her 218 class told her to do it this
>>way.
>>
>
>Examples?
Examples.
Using reference to pass *all* variables, not just the ones being
modified
Passing WHOLE ARRAYS [256][8] by value rather than reference. Apparently,
they've not yet learned pointers, and this is 218!
Doing an insert-into-array using TWO temporary variables, when there are
simple ways to do it with none
The list goes on...
David Kusters
with a lack of standards. Each teacher teaches different things in
their classes. Example - When I entered Hitchner's 218 class last
quarter (Hitchner is a good teacher that you may not know; he's pretty
new to Poly), we spent a day going over what different teachers did and
did not teach in 118. We then started at the most basic thing in the
class that just one person in the class was not taught in 118. By the
time we arrived to material that was new to everyone (excepting those
who already knew the material in the first place), we were at about
week five! It is not surprising(sp?) to see people complain about
students never being taught material. It was probably a lack of
standards among the department.
Alternativly, the department may have standards that I don't know about.
If this is the case, it is obvious that these standards are not being
followed very well.
Dave.
-----
So this is hell. . . and there's a crucifix. - Armand Goldman, "the Birdcage"
I know we didn't sacrifice a virgin, but maybe we can fool Satan.
- David Acker - Computer Programmer, Chill
dkus...@lore.acs.calpoly.edu http://www.calpoly.edu/~dkusters/
Chris Buckalew
>I think the main problem with the instruction of C++ at Poly has to do
>with a lack of standards. Each teacher teaches different things in
>their classes.
>
>If this is the case, it is obvious that these standards are not being
>followed very well.
This is much of what is happening. Each course has a catalog description
and an extended course outline which instructors are supposed to follow,
but nobody looks over each instructor's shoulder to make sure that the
material is getting covered. With the transition to C++ different
instructors got to different places in the material. This is very bad
because it puts instructors of later courses in a bind. For instance
Millie taught 345 last fall, and a large portion of her class hadn't yet
had pointers! So what does she do? Stick with the material she's
supposed to cover and flunk good students whose situation is not their
fault? Or take time to teach pointers and shaft the next instructor by not
covering everything she's supposed to? Well, she taught some special extra
classes to those students, but it added a load on her that shouldn't have
been there.
Teaching is an art, not a science, and some people are better at it than
others. Still others don't even try to be good at it, but fortunately
we don't have too many of those at Poly. The budget problems have made
some things worse as well - when I started here less than six years ago,
my 118 classes had 25 people. This quarter my 118 has 36, and it would
have 40 if the room could hold that many. We have grad students teaching
core classes in some cases because we don't have enough faculty to meet
the demand. This is bad, but our only alternative is to have fewer classes
which makes it even harder for students to graduate.
Chris
David James Isham
Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>Using reference to pass *all* variables, not just the ones being
>modified
>
>Passing WHOLE ARRAYS [256][8] by value rather than reference. Apparently,
>they've not yet learned pointers, and this is 218!
>
>Doing an insert-into-array using TWO temporary variables, when there are
>simple ways to do it with none
>
>The list goes on...
>--
To let you know what a waste of time 118 is, well, I didn't even take it!
I just went straight into CSC 218. The stuff in 118 is incredibly
rudimentary. I took Myers for 218 (and have him now in 345). Real
good teacher but he gets bogged down with the students who have not learned
about pointers yet! Spent the first 2 weeks in review and didn't get to
templates until just recently. Seems like our teachers are reduced to
appealing to the lowest common denominator.
Chris, you mentioned inefficient coding above but sometimes you need
to learn how to program at the expense of speed. Last quarter we completed
a pretty large (relative to C++ newbies) program and we used derived classes
extensively whereas we could have easily optimized our code without
the derived or companion classes. But the point is that we learned all the
in's and out's of classes. It is often difficult to fully learn C++
in a non-commercial setting when the students are making trivial games or
whatever. Also, passing a const reference parameter is quite prevalent
in industry.
Also, you have to remember that C++ was just recently implemented as
the new "track". I think it will take a little time to get things straight.
dave
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Christopher Michael Collins
Chris Buckalew <buck...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>Teaching is an art, not a science, and some people are better at it than
>others. Still others don't even try to be good at it, but fortunately
>we don't have too many of those at Poly. The budget problems have made
>some things worse as well - when I started here less than six years ago,
>my 118 classes had 25 people. This quarter my 118 has 36, and it would
>have 40 if the room could hold that many. We have grad students teaching
>core classes in some cases because we don't have enough faculty to meet
>the demand. This is bad, but our only alternative is to have fewer classes
>which makes it even harder for students to graduate.
You say our *only* alternative is fewer classes. Isn't additional
faculty also an alternative? Isn't our University trying to impliment
the Cal Poly Plan for this very reason, to increase faculty, and
subsequently speed our graduation time.
--Chris
Chris Buckalew
>Chris Buckalew <buck...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>[snip]
>>some things worse as well - when I started here less than six years ago,
>>my 118 classes had 25 people. This quarter my 118 has 36, and it would
>>have 40 if the room could hold that many. We have grad students teaching
>>core classes in some cases because we don't have enough faculty to meet
>>the demand. This is bad, but our only alternative is to have fewer classes
>>which makes it even harder for students to graduate.
>
>You say our *only* alternative is fewer classes. Isn't additional
>faculty also an alternative? Isn't our University trying to impliment
>the Cal Poly Plan for this very reason, to increase faculty, and
>subsequently speed our graduation time.
Our only alternative given a fixed budget. Yes, the Cal Poly Plan should
provide some more money and we have applied for some of that money to add
instructors. Write your state legislator too and tell them that higher
education is worth funding. It seems that California is drifting farther
and farther from publicly-funded education toward privately-funded education.
Chris
adam
>ad...@miranda.punk.net (adam) says:
>>Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>She said that she had been taught none of it. Furthermore, some of the
>>>methods that she was using were atrocious. When I tried to point out why,
>>>she claimed that the instructor of her 218 class told her to do it this
>>>way.
>>>
>>
>>Examples?
>
>Examples.
>
>modified
>
Don't know if I'd make such a blanket statement. I pass "const Foo &"
all the time to avoid constructor/destructor overhead...
Steve Luck
Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>
>Passing WHOLE ARRAYS [256][8] by value rather than reference. Apparently,
>they've not yet learned pointers, and this is 218!
Maybe the department is doing a reasonably good job of an impossible
task. How do we teach C++ to freshmen, when so few of us are fully
comfortable with the language? To illustrate the point, see Stroustrup
section 4.6.5 "If an array is used as a function argument, a pointer
to its first element is passed....an array is not (and cannot be)
passed by value."
I ran into this problem while tutoring 118 students who don't know
pointers yet, and we cannot explain why the & is not needed to pass
an array by reference in the second definition below:
void CopyInt( /*receive*/ const int from, /*assign*/ int &to);
void CopyStr( /*receive*/ const char from[], /*assign*/ char to[]);
The department decided to teach C++ because we "learn by
doing," and industry is doing C++ right now, but it is a
*difficult* language. In our ACM Tuesday Evening Presentation this
week: "What is Wrong with C++" Dan Stearns told us of an AT&T
study where they found an 18 month learning curve for
experienced programmers in their 20's, and longer for inexperienced
or older programmers. Dan is one of the few people we have who is
comfortable with C++, and he has rejected it as the source language
for at least one commercial project because of the many difficulties.
Hopefully industry will lead Cal Poly away from C++ in the coming
years, or perhaps we could start new programmers on an interpreted
language with simple and precise semantics, and later teach them C++.
Steve Luck
VP ACM Cal Poly Chapter http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~acm
sluck@galaxy or lu...@acm.org or mail acm@galaxy
Nate Lawson
>David Kusters <dkus...@vash.acs.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>>I think the main problem with the instruction of C++ at Poly has to do
>>with a lack of standards. Each teacher teaches different things in
>>their classes.
>>
>>Alternativly, the department may have standards that I don't know about.
>>If this is the case, it is obvious that these standards are not being
>>followed very well.
>
>This is much of what is happening. Each course has a catalog description
>and an extended course outline which instructors are supposed to follow,
>but nobody looks over each instructor's shoulder to make sure that the
>material is getting covered. With the transition to C++ different
>instructors got to different places in the material. This is very bad
>because it puts instructors of later courses in a bind. For instance
>Millie taught 345 last fall, and a large portion of her class hadn't yet
>had pointers! So what does she do? Stick with the material she's
>supposed to cover and flunk good students whose situation is not their
>fault?
I think you're all looking at this in the wrong way. You're expecting school
to actually teach you something. If you believe in that, then you're going
to be disappointed all the time. Instead, teach yourself the material that
you need to know before you take the class. Read three or four books on the
topic and know them ahead of time.
Then, when you get to class and find that you aren't learning anything, you
won't be disappointed or surprised. Take the class time to brush up on the
knowledge you already have and fill in the cracks in your learning. Classes
are to help you learn and to insure that you have some level of understanding
before continuing to the next class. The are NOT there to teach you the
material.
Perhaps colleges need to dispel with the myth that by attending class, doing
the homework, and studying, you will know the material. But students have
no excuse for not knowing the prerequisite material and should be graded as
such.
--
Nate Lawson "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of
CPE Student evil to one who is striking at the root."
CSL Admin -- Henry David Thoreau, 'Walden', 1854
David Lee Spencer
David James Isham <dis...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>whatever. Also, passing a const reference parameter is quite prevalent
>in industry.
It is in fact the preferred style. Passing a NON-const, reference parameter,
and then altering it, is mentioned as *bad* style.
Why the hell is that? Because when people see a "fn(&var_to_modify)",
for "ret_type fn(param_type *var_to_be_modified) {...}", they know
what's happening. If you see fn(var_to_modify), and you use reference
parameters to modify data, it's your guess as to what's happening.
It is of course not really a question of technical drawbacks, but
first-glance readability. The human factor interferes again.
Living in "the C era," one has to be aware of prevailing biases of
experienced C cum C++ programmers -- they're usually there for a reason.
Of course, "PROCEDURE Fn(Var: IN OUT Var_Type)" makes parameter passing
issues ever so much cleaner.
>Also, you have to remember that C++ was just recently implemented as
>the new "track". I think it will take a little time to get things straight.
Yes, but from experiences interacting with professors for whom I have
graded introductory-track classes (notably: 345), it was much the same
with Ada. Some 118/218 teachers just didn't teach what was "expected."
This is, IMHO, one of the worst problems afflicting the department.
-Dave
-------------------------------------------------------- /\ --------- --- -
Dave Spencer - dspe...@galaxy.calpoly.edu ___---/ \--___
Computer Science Student, Cal Poly SLO ~~~ PINK/ ~- \~-====__
http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~dspencer/ FLOYD ~~~~~~ ~~===
Jamie Dawn Gordon
: ad...@miranda.punk.net (adam) says:
: >Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
: Examples.
: Using reference to pass *all* variables, not just the ones being
: modified
: Passing WHOLE ARRAYS [256][8] by value rather than reference. Apparently,
: they've not yet learned pointers, and this is 218!
: Doing an insert-into-array using TWO temporary variables, when there are
: simple ways to do it with none
: The list goes on...
: --
Okay. I'm in 218 right now with Jenkins, took 118 with her last
quarter. Sounds like this may be the class your girlfriend's in. The
project we're working on uses many of the concepts mentioned in the
original post, but she did teach them to us, and she specifically told
us to use them. She also told us that there are some things we haven't
learned yet and that if our friends who knew more about the language
helped us they would not like some of what we had to do, and suggest
more complicated things. I have been very happy with the class -- I am
actually learning a lot. No, I haven't learned everything yet. How much
do you expect them to teach us in such a short time? Remember, 118 is
intended for students with no programming experience whatsoever, not just
comp sci majors. And by the way, we just had an hour lecture on pointers
today.
jamie
Clinton Staley
David Lee Spencer <dspe...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>In article <4l7h3d$1o...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu>,
>David James Isham <dis...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>>whatever. Also, passing a const reference parameter is quite prevalent
>>in industry.
>
>It is in fact the preferred style. Passing a NON-const, reference parameter,
>and then altering it, is mentioned as *bad* style.
Oh, now I see what Chris was talking about. Some 118 instructors do teach
pass-by-reference using true references rather than pointers. Dave is
right; this is not the industrial standard. On the other hand, the
alternatives are to avoid pass-by-reference until 218 when pointers are
covered, or to attempt to explain pointers to students who are still
learning about for-loops. Not a pretty choice.
Clint
Dr. Clinton Staley
cst...@calpoly.edu
Mei-Ling Liu
Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>
>As to this point, you want my darwinian opinion - teach them the CONCEPT
>of pointers in 118 as soon as possible. Those who cannot grok should learn
>that fact right away, and give those who can an introduction into (arguably)
>the most important part of C.
>
>And those of you who balk at this idea... what do you do with an art
>student who cannot draw? A math student who cannot find a square root?
As one of the 118 instructors, I will say this:
The difficulties of teaching a course like CSc118 have to be experienced
to be understood. Simply put, the reality is quite different
from what many of you (me included, when I was a student myself)
may perceive. The department offered 13 sections of CSc118 this past
Fall: that's 13*35 ~= 450 students. It's been estimated that 40%
of our 118 students are non-CSc/CPE majors. In the class that I
teach currently, 50% of the students have majors in history, MIS, math,
etc. other than CSc/CPE. Some students truly have no background in pro-
gramming, and the course in fact has no prerequisite. Those students
have to be accommodated as well. Perhaps it has not escaped your
notice that every student in a class has a say in an instructor's
evaluation?
As Professor Staley has pointed out: The department is keenly aware
of the problem of inconsistency in the course contents. Part of
the difficulty that leads to this particular problem is the great
diversity in the 118 students. I think if you had to deal with
students who have problem composing a simple program by the 5th
week of a quarter, you would have second thoughts about introducing
pointers in 118. Look, it's different when you are helping a friend:
that's one-on-one tutoring. Teaching 35 people at a time is a whole
different ball game.
Come Fall, the department is offering an accelerated introductory
course (CSc249?) which can be taken in place of 118-218. That may
be the course where pointers can be introduced. But certainly not
CSc118.
Mei-Ling Liu, CSc Professor
Christopher Ambler
>On the other hand, the
>alternatives are to avoid pass-by-reference until 218 when pointers are
>covered, or to attempt to explain pointers to students who are still
>learning about for-loops. Not a pretty choice.
Glad to see you in the fray, Clint.
As to this point, you want my darwinian opinion - teach them the CONCEPT
of pointers in 118 as soon as possible. Those who cannot grok should learn
that fact right away, and give those who can an introduction into (arguably)
the most important part of C.
And those of you who balk at this idea... what do you do with an art
student who cannot draw? A math student who cannot find a square root?
--
Christopher Michael Collins
> [snip] Perhaps it has not escaped your
>notice that every student in a class has a say in an instructor's
>evaluation?
I find this a particularly odious sentiment. The whole balance
of teaching and learning is offset with an approach like this.
I would suppose that every professor is uniquely qualified to
lecture on their subject of expertise. The University, The Schools
and the Departments are the culmination of expertise in academic
material as well as methods of presenting material. If I,
as a student, place any faith what so ever in this University.
I *have* to believe that the administration is competent enough
to hire qualified professors.
I doubt that there is a single student in this university that
is qualified in appraisal of university level lecture techniques
and style. This is the responsibility of the administration! If
a professor is altering the course material in *any* way to
appease student, Those students are suffering an extreme injustice.
I ask you(Particularly with non-major students) what motive is
there for a student to give a professor a good evaluation if:
1) The class was informative, easy, and good grades where given.
2) The class was difficult, challenging, and ave. grades where given.
Of course non-majors will give better evaluations to the first
choice, it's in a students best self-interest. I claim, and I hope
all Professors see, that this evaluation is meaningless. Furthermore,
a professor teaching for these evaluations as an ends, is doing a
disservice to all.
--Chris
Jason R. Frey
>student who cannot draw? A math student who cannot find a square root?
Agreed, but before the math student can do square roots, he/she has to learn
how to count first. If I had walked into a 118 class my first quarter here,
and the professor had mumbled spomething at me about pointers, I wouldn't
have understood. I would have stared blankly, and then gone and gotten the
change-of-major forms. There's something to be said for Darwinian
selection, but there's also something to be said for giving student's the
tools that they need to understand the more complex stuff. For another
example, what would you have done if, in first grade, the teacher had handed
you Hamlet and told you that you had to read it by the end of the week?
There are times when you should throw them to the sharks, and there are
times when you should teach them shark-avoidance techniques...
- Jason
--
"If Dino were a velociraptor, he would have eaten the Flintstones"
- Friends
Jason Frey, Computer Science, jf...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu
Mei-Ling Liu
I certainly wasn't implying that I, for one, teach for the students'
evaluations, but the reality is that the results of the students' evaluations
*ARE* part of an instructor's own evaluation. Furthermore, I was not
implying that 118 professors alter the course material to appease students.
As Professor Buckalew pointed out, there is an extended syllabus that all
CSc118 instructors go by, where topics to be covered are listed. This
list was compiled after numerous meetings and many hours of debate among
CSc118 professors. The point of my original posting was that given the
diversity in the backgrounds of the CSc118 students, bringing up the concept
of "pointers" is unrealistic. Currently, "pointers" is not in the CSc118
extended syllabus.
Mei-Ling Liu, CSc Prof.
Christopher Ambler
pointers in the 100 minutes (2 classes) and have them fully grok the
concept.
I'll even wager I can teach someone C++ in 16 hours (2 8-hour days,
or, a solid weekend).
Richard Joseph Rodriguez Jr
: I'll wager I can teach someone with NO programming experience about
: pointers in the 100 minutes (2 classes) and have them fully grok the
: concept.
: I'll even wager I can teach someone C++ in 16 hours (2 8-hour days,
: or, a solid weekend).
Are you sure about that? I've met some really clueless people here at
Poly. Ever think you'd have to explain scientific notation to a college
student? "Why are you moving the decimal point?"
Doron Joseph Holan
Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>I'll wager I can teach someone with NO programming experience about
>pointers in the 100 minutes (2 classes) and have them fully grok the
>concept.
>
>I'll even wager I can teach someone C++ in 16 hours (2 8-hour days,
could teach it to someone in 2 8 hour days....it is a one on one learning
experience. You can modify the way you present the info specifically towards
the needs of your audience.
A classroom is an entirely different story! I helped Clint w/his 118 classes
this summer and it wasn't an easy task. I think that teaching the concept of
a pointer to 35 ppl at a time would not necessarily be the most fun thing in
the world to do.
doron
--
I set the wheels in motion Doron Joseph Holan
turn up all the machines Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo
activate the programs dho...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu
and run behind the scenes --RUSH http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~dholan
Christopher Ambler
>Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>>I'll wager I can teach someone with NO programming experience about
>>pointers in the 100 minutes (2 classes) and have them fully grok the
>>concept.
>
>this summer and it wasn't an easy task. I think that teaching the concept of
>a pointer to 35 ppl at a time would not necessarily be the most fun thing in
>the world to do.
I'd take that challenge, though, and I think I could do it. Any 118
instructors care to have me come in one class and explain pointers? :-)
Doron Joseph Holan
Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>dho...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu (Doron Joseph Holan) says:
>>Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>>>I'll wager I can teach someone with NO programming experience about
>>>pointers in the 100 minutes (2 classes) and have them fully grok the
>>>concept.
>>
>>A classroom is an entirely different story! I helped Clint w/his 118 classes
>>this summer and it wasn't an easy task. I think that teaching the concept of
>>a pointer to 35 ppl at a time would not necessarily be the most fun thing in
>>the world to do.
>
>I'd take that challenge, though, and I think I could do it. Any 118
>instructors care to have me come in one class and explain pointers? :-)
pointers correctly is quite difficult in a lecturing environment. From
talking w/Tracey about how she taught relative vs. absolute cell referencing
in excel in csc 110 (or something intro like that) /interactively/ and that
the students got it right the *first* time after the lab, why not do that
with pointers? Have a really good step by step lab where the student can do
it by him/herself and figure it out on their own. I personally learn much
better if I figure it out myself.....
Chris Buckalew
>I'll wager I can teach someone with NO programming experience about
>pointers in the 100 minutes (2 classes) and have them fully grok the
>concept.
>
I have no doubt that you could... if the person is well-qualified to learn
it (including some math background to give some intellectual discipline)
and actually WANTS to learn it. My 118 class this quarter has two CPE
students; all the rest are math, MIS, English... a good portion of my job
in that class is keeping the students motivated and interested in the
material, not just conveying it. And that doesn't mean just keeping it
simple - there are more ways to get unmotivated people to learn something
besides making it easy. That makes my job harder than your 100 minutes
would be.
About the academic darwinism - that's just not acceptable. I'm sure the
Math Department would end up with better graduates if they gave freshmen
a tensor analysis screening exam when they started out, but they wouldn't
have very many graduates. Our job is not only to produce computer science
graduates who ace all the tests and never have any problems grasping the
concepts, but also those people who may not get it at first or who take
special effort on our part to teach, but who eventually learn it and
understand it just as well as you do. There are probably a lot more of
these than the first type, and provided they DO eventually get it, there's
no reason to deny them a chance at a CSC degree just because we're lazy and
don't want to put in the effort.
And student evaluations: Most students are not so short-sighted that they
think easy==good class. If I get a bad evaluation from someone that says
the class was too hard, I don't worry about it too much. If I get *thirty*
evaluations that say it was too hard, that's a different story. As far as
us instructors' tenure evaluations are concerned, one bad evaluation won't
make any difference; thirty will make a big difference.
just my opinion.
Chris
Jason Lee
>
>I have no doubt that you could... if the person is well-qualified to learn
>it (including some math background to give some intellectual discipline)
>and actually WANTS to learn it. My 118 class this quarter has two CPE
>students; all the rest are math, MIS, English... a good portion of my job
>in that class is keeping the students motivated and interested in the
>material, not just conveying it. And that doesn't mean just keeping it
>simple - there are more ways to get unmotivated people to learn something
>besides making it easy. That makes my job harder than your 100 minutes
>would be.
I don't understand why a university professor needs to motivate people to
learn. If somebody doesn't want to learn, that's their business. This is
not high school, where people HAVE to be there. If you go to college, you
are there by your own volition, and thus you should motivate yourself.
JLee
--
| Jason Lee jp...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu |
| "Examinations are formidable even to the best prepared, for the |
| greatest fool may ask more than what the wisest man can answer." |
| Charles Corlton |
Mei-Ling Liu
Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>I'll wager I can teach someone with NO programming experience about
>pointers in the 100 minutes (2 classes) and have them fully grok the
>concept.
>I'd take that challenge, though, and I think I could do it. Any 118
>instructors care to have me come in one class and explain pointers? :-)
>
how the job of a professor is commonly misperceived. Most people
(again, myself included) think that all a professor has to do is to
stand up in front of a class and talk for an hour, and her job is done.
And so if I spend a number of hours cooking up a good lecture,
then for sure the students will be happy customers. It may come as
a surprise (as it did to me) that the lecturing part is the easiest
aspect of the job. The preparation is hard, but far more demanding
is to get results, results in terms of good test scores and satisfac-
tory student evaluations.
I have no doubt that any number of C programmers can deliver a good talk
on pointers, but so can any good actor who can memorize a script well.
It is being able to effectively deliver a topic within the context
and the fabric of a course, given a particular class of audience, that
makes the job so challenging.
No, one lecture won't do to prove your hypothesis. I would invite you to
try to become a 118 instructor and teach the course for a quarter.
Mei-Ling Liu, CSc Prof.
Mei-Ling Liu
Jason Lee <jp...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>
>I don't understand why a university professor needs to motivate people to
>learn. If somebody doesn't want to learn, that's their business. This is
>not high school, where people HAVE to be there. If you go to college, you
>are there by your own volition, and thus you should motivate yourself.
Amen. Unfortunately, a professor is in this happy position perhaps only
at universities such as MIT or Standford (and I am not sure about that).
The reality is as follows: You are given a list of topics to teach. 25%
of the students do not have the background to catch on by the time you
introduce functions. You lose another 25% by the time you get to loops.
Arrays pose an impossible challenge to another 10%. Then you really lose
them when you introduce enumerations. Bear in mind that perhaps the
majority of people who are in 118 are not sure about what they want to
major in. They sign up because it's required while they are trying
out the CSc/CPE major, or because their department says they have to
take it. We are not talking about cool courses like graphics where
interested and capable students can freely choose to stay.
>dho...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu (Doron Joseph Holan) says:
>...
>talking w/Tracey about how she taught relative vs. absolute cell referencing
>in excel in csc 110 (or something intro like that) /interactively/ and that
>the students got it right the *first* time after the lab, why not do that
>with pointers? Have a really good step by step lab where the student can do
>it by him/herself and figure it out on their own. I personally learn much
>better if I figure it out myself.....
I believe to equate the complexity of pointers with relative/absolute
cell addressing in a spreadsheet is unfair. But step-by-stop labs
*are* being used now. Yet while it is helpful to students who are
well-prepared and receptive, this sort of exercise can turn out to
be just going through the motion for other students. For example,
a step-by-step lab was used in my class to show students the whole
process of making a program, compiling it, and generating the listings
and scripts. A week later, when asked to apply the process to a
different program, half of the students could not recall.
I will also say that I too believe that a good interactive classroom
will be very helpful in teaching a course like 118. But if you have
worked in 14-302 (CSc118's lab) you will know that it's impossible
to do any kind of demos there. Ideally, the instructor will be able
to demo to students, each of whom has a monitor in front of her. But
instead we function in a lab where the acoustics is dismal and half
of the terminals misbehave at random moments. Alas, we do not live
in an ideal world.
Mei-Ling Liu, CSc prof.
Chris Buckalew
>ml...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu (Mei-Ling Liu) says:
>>No, one lecture won't do to prove your hypothesis. I would invite you to
>>try to become a 118 instructor and teach the course for a quarter.
>
>a thing, I'd take you up on that and do it!
We'd love to have you do that, but dang it! our accrediting agency doesn't
let instructors without a Masters' degree teach classes within the major.
Nothing personal, you understand... if it were up to us... :-)
Chris
Chris Buckalew
>
>I don't understand why a university professor needs to motivate people to
>learn. If somebody doesn't want to learn, that's their business. This is
>not high school, where people HAVE to be there. If you go to college, you
>are there by your own volition, and thus you should motivate yourself.
Oh, come on... you've never had days or classes where you just weren't really
interested in the material? Your mind wandered, you had a hard time motivating
yourself to do the paper that was due the next day? A good comparison would
be some dull, boring class - a P.E. class - baseball, say... :-)
Seriously, this isn't high school, and motivation is not nearly such a problem
as it would be in high school. In fact, Cal Poly students are much better
about that sort of thing than students at the two other universities I've been
associated with. Cal Poly students are by and large highly motivated. But
that doesn't mean that I can be lazy and assume that the students will do all
my work for me. For instance, today I spent 15 minutes convincing an English
major that she wasn't dumb, that other students in the class were having some
of the same problems she was, etc. It would have been much easier for me to
have brushed her off and had her drop the class.
Chris
Christopher Ambler
>No, one lecture won't do to prove your hypothesis. I would invite you to
>try to become a 118 instructor and teach the course for a quarter.
You know, if I thought for a moment that Cal Poly would let me do such
a thing, I'd take you up on that and do it!
--
Christopher Ambler
>We'd love to have you do that, but dang it! our accrediting agency doesn't
>let instructors without a Masters' degree teach classes within the major.
>Nothing personal, you understand... if it were up to us... :-)
Yeah, makes perfect sense. They want to know that I would put up with
at least 6 years of University Bullshit(tm) to teach, rather than the
14 years of Industry Bullshit(tm) I've put up with.
They'd rather me get a Master's degree than have run 3 successful
companies.
Makes perfect sense to me :-)
Christopher Scott Campbell
>I don't understand why a university professor needs to motivate people to
>learn. If somebody doesn't want to learn, that's their business. This is
>not high school, where people HAVE to be there. If you go to college, you
>are there by your own volition, and thus you should motivate yourself.
You know it might sound funny, but I really hadn't much of clue as to
what "gen ed" meant until the summer before I came here. I was pretty
much dissapointed and bored with having to take stupid classes that
weren't in my major, which happens to be a field I very much am
interested in. In all honesty, I ask, am I really going to require any
skill in a programming language in my field? I still haven't really
figured that out yet. I also ask, is CSC 251 going to prepare me
for when I might really need to write a program to design concrete columns
(okay, that's one example I can think of). The point is, everybody here
has to take some computer course, and some us can't get away with taking
110.
Chris
--
Christopher Scott Campbell * Papa Smurf Always Says:
csca...@tuba.aix.calpoly.edu * "Haste Makes Waste"
*
ArchE and Surfing/Skiing * So don't blow your wad in 30 seconds.
Treasure
>
>I'll even wager I can teach someone C++ in 16 hours (2 8-hour days,
>or, a solid weekend).
>
Okay Chris... you are on.
I have been thinking of learning C++, I have had enough C to at least count
for what they learn in 118 (probably 218 as well, as I *do* understand
pointers).
I would say I have a better than average chance at learning it, as I have
had experience programming... but it ought to be interesting anyways.
pick your 16 hours... the weekend on May 4-5 is out for me.
-Kristin
--
WARNING: This Product Warps Space and Time in Its Vicinity.
Jason C. Kastner
>Yeah, makes perfect sense. They want to know that I would put up with
>at least 6 years of University Bullshit(tm) to teach, rather than the
>14 years of Industry Bullshit(tm) I've put up with.
My former boss, after having worked as an applied mathematician in
industry for 25 years, decided to quit and get a job as a teacher. A
year and a half later he still hasn't landed a perm. position despite
the fact he is an excellent motivator, instructor and knows what the
"real world" needs from a mathematician. I think that one reason is that
academia just doesn't seem to place much emphasis on non-academia
experience.
Jason
Jason Lee
>as it would be in high school. In fact, Cal Poly students are much better
>about that sort of thing than students at the two other universities I've been
>associated with. Cal Poly students are by and large highly motivated. But
>that doesn't mean that I can be lazy and assume that the students will do all
>my work for me. For instance, today I spent 15 minutes convincing an English
>major that she wasn't dumb, that other students in the class were having some
>of the same problems she was, etc. It would have been much easier for me to
>have brushed her off and had her drop the class.
I don't think you can or want to ASSUME the students will be motivated. I
just feel like your time is _much_ better spent elsewhere.
--
| Jason Lee Go Giants! | San Diego Padres 13 7 -- |
| jp...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu | Colorado Rockies 10 9 2.5 |
| Magic Number to win the NL West: | San Francisco Giants 10 10 3.0 |
| #*=>+- 146 -+<=*# | Los Angeles Dodgers 9 12 4.5 |
Chris Buckalew
>
>My former boss, after having worked as an applied mathematician in
>industry for 25 years, decided to quit and get a job as a teacher. A
>year and a half later he still hasn't landed a perm. position despite
>the fact he is an excellent motivator, instructor and knows what the
>"real world" needs from a mathematician. I think that one reason is that
>academia just doesn't seem to place much emphasis on non-academia
>experience.
Cal Poly is relatively unusual in that it cares what the real world thinks of
its graduates. Also, the primary goal of many institutions is NOT education,
contrary to what you might think. The goal of many "top schools" is research,
particularly funded research. That's where they make their money; many of
their personnel never step in a classroom. Of course grad students,
particularly PhD students, can get an excellent education in such an
environment, but undergrads and even Masters' students are not so lucky.
As an example, a professor hired by the University of Texas just as I was
graduating had a clause in his contract that he *would not* teach undergrad
classes.
BTW, I'm going to be talking about these sorts of things in the upcoming
ACM presentation "Jobs in Academia" on May 28.
Another perspective on your boss - academic positions in many fields are
very hard to come by. Even in good economic times, tenure-track openings in
English, Math, Philosophy, etc, number a small fraction of the new PhDs
produced each year. What can you do with an English PhD besides go to
academia? Engineering PhDs, on the other hand, can get real jobs, so there
are fewer who go into academia. Even in CSC, academic jobs were very rare
for a few years there (lots of 'em now, though).
Also, universities would rather hire newly-minted PhDs as opposed to more
experienced people any day. They're not paid as much, their knowledge is
in many cases more up-to-day (but not necessarily), and they may be more
committed to the University since they'll be working there for the next 30
years or so. It's rather difficult to get an academic job six or seven years
out of school.
all my opinions.
Chris
adam
>Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>>
>>As to this point, you want my darwinian opinion - teach them the CONCEPT
>>of pointers in 118 as soon as possible. Those who cannot grok should learn
>>that fact right away, and give those who can an introduction into (arguably)
>>the most important part of C.
>>
>>And those of you who balk at this idea... what do you do with an art
>
>of our 118 students are non-CSc/CPE majors. In the class that I
>teach currently, 50% of the students have majors in history, MIS, math,
>etc. other than CSc/CPE. Some students truly have no background in pro-
>gramming, and the course in fact has no prerequisite. Those students
>have to be accommodated as well.
Perhaps this is part of the problem?
I am also a little dissapointed by Poly's CSC program. I have worked
with both CSC graduates (people with BS's) and CSC grad students
(people working towards a Masters) who did not know:
The difference between memory on the stack and on the heap.
Why returning pointers to objects on the stack was bad.
How to use "make".
The difference between 0 and '0' in C.
The difference between O(N^2) and O(N) algorithms, or why you might
prefer one over the other.
How to read the error messages from the compiler.
>Come Fall, the department is offering an accelerated introductory
>course (CSc249?) which can be taken in place of 118-218. That may
>be the course where pointers can be introduced. But certainly not
>CSc118.
I'm not sure one quarter will cut it. It seems as though what might
be needed is some kind of parallel to 118/218, but for CSC/CPE
students only.
--Adam
--
ad...@l4.eorbit.net E g b c
A M R ! i a k
E L I : I E v t !
R C M N e i
adam
While I agree with your sentiment, I have to disagree with the idea
that the administration is competent enough to hire qualified
professors. There's more to being a professor than just technical
knowledge. Lemme give you some examples.
Dr. Luthra: Nice guy, but I think he has a problem with English. He
never seems to answer the questions that students ask. Ask him one
question, he'll answer a completely different one.
Dr. Hsu: Again, a nice guy, but I don't think he keeps abreast of
technical issues. I had his networks class (404?). I learned the
X-Modem protocol. That's about it. He didn't touch TCP/IP at all.
He didn't talk about Ethernet because "It's going to die".
I gave both these instructors bad reviews. There has to be some
feedback from the students. Regardless of how biassed they may be,
their feedback is worth something.
adam
>
>I will also say that I too believe that a good interactive classroom
>will be very helpful in teaching a course like 118. But if you have
>worked in 14-302 (CSc118's lab) you will know that it's impossible
>to do any kind of demos there. Ideally, the instructor will be able
>to demo to students, each of whom has a monitor in front of her. But
>instead we function in a lab where the acoustics is dismal and half
>of the terminals misbehave at random moments. Alas, we do not live
>in an ideal world.
>
I've been tempted on many occasions to set aside an hour of my time at
night to give free and open lectures on various topics which might be
of interest to CSC 118/218 students. Things like "make", "pointers",
"dynamic memory allocation", "how to listen to your compiler", etc...
The idea would not be to do homework for people, but to give a little
extra free information in an informal lecture format to people who
were interested.
Steve Luck
>I've been tempted on many occasions to set aside an hour of my time at
>night to give free and open lectures on various topics which might be
>of interest to CSC 118/218 students. Things like "make", "pointers",
>"dynamic memory allocation", "how to listen to your compiler", etc...
Sounds like a good idea for an ACM Wednesday night lecture series. How
would you like to draw up a series of topics for 7pm lectures, and
ACM could get you a classroom and publicity? This is week 5, so we
need 5 topics if you want to start next week. We need to publicise it
no later than Sunday night.
We might even be able to round up some volunteers to do tutoring on the
same topics from 8-9, right after the talks.
Steve Luck
VP ACM Cal Poly Chapter http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~acm
sluck@galaxy or lu...@acm.org or mail acm@galaxy
Christopher Ambler
a lecture or two.
Mei-Ling Liu
Steve Luck <sl...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>In article <4lo35i$1...@twizzler.callamer.com>, adam <ad...@l4.eorbit.net> wrote:
>>I've been tempted on many occasions to set aside an hour of my time at
>>night to give free and open lectures on various topics which might be
>>of interest to CSC 118/218 students. Things like "make", "pointers",
>>"dynamic memory allocation", "how to listen to your compiler", etc...
>
>Sounds like a good idea for an ACM Wednesday night lecture series. How
>would you like to draw up a series of topics for 7pm lectures, and
>ACM could get you a classroom and publicity? This is week 5, so we
>need 5 topics if you want to start next week. We need to publicise it
>no later than Sunday night.
>
>We might even be able to round up some volunteers to do tutoring on the
>same topics from 8-9, right after the talks.
attempted to organize a tutoring program. I salute you and hope that
this series indeed happens. I will keep my eyes on this and will
definitely encourage my 118 students to take advantage of such an effort.
Mei-Ling Liu, CSc Professor
Tanya M. Parry
>>
>I've been tempted on many occasions to set aside an hour of my time at
>night to give free and open lectures on various topics which might be
>of interest to CSC 118/218 students. Things like "make", "pointers",
>"dynamic memory allocation", "how to listen to your compiler", etc...
>
Tanya
Tanya M. Parry
In article <4l8uh7$l...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu>,
Steve Luck <sl...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>In article <4l5upe$j...@twizzler.callamer.com>,
>Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>>
>>Passing WHOLE ARRAYS [256][8] by value rather than reference. Apparently,
>>they've not yet learned pointers, and this is 218!
>
On this note (I think it's related), is there more than one way to pass
ARRAY[10][3] in C++. I tried several different ways and only one wouldn't
give an error. A couple of people whom I asked, couldn't see why some of
the things I tried didn't work.
Tanya - A senior who's been struggling with pointers and such since 240, and
is now feeling incompetent because of C++.
Nate Lawson
Tanya M. Parry <tpa...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>Steve Luck <sl...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>>Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>Passing WHOLE ARRAYS [256][8] by value rather than reference. Apparently,
>>>they've not yet learned pointers, and this is 218!
>>
>On this note (I think it's related), is there more than one way to pass
>ARRAY[10][3] in C++. I tried several different ways and only one wouldn't
>give an error. A couple of people whom I asked, couldn't see why some of
>the things I tried didn't work.
Where I come from, you can pass everything but local variables via:
char *p = ARRAY;
function (p);
Local variables work sometimes too if you're quick with the stack. Type
checking is for someone else.
--
Nate Lawson "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of
CPE Student evil to one who is striking at the root."
CSL Admin -- Henry David Thoreau, 'Walden', 1854
Jason C. Kastner
Chris Buckalew <buck...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
[snipped lots of opinions Chris has about what a university looks for when
hiring]
I understand and agree with everything you said but don't believe that
this is the best way to operate. I want my university to have both
professors who are straight out of the cutting edge of academia research
and ones who are straight out of the cutting edge of industry.
Jason
Russell J Larner
Nate Lawson <nla...@kdat.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>Tanya M. Parry <tpa...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>>Steve Luck <sl...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>>>Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Passing WHOLE ARRAYS [256][8] by value rather than reference. Apparently,
>>>>they've not yet learned pointers, and this is 218!
>>>
>>On this note (I think it's related), is there more than one way to pass
>>ARRAY[10][3] in C++. I tried several different ways and only one wouldn't
>>give an error. A couple of people whom I asked, couldn't see why some of
>>the things I tried didn't work.
>
>Where I come from, you can pass everything but local variables via:
>char *p = ARRAY;
>function (p);
>
>Local variables work sometimes too if you're quick with the stack. Type
>checking is for someone else.
While your post is informative, Nate, I don't think your style will help
much for a class program. And, I would NEVER want to work anyplace you
had written code like that... ;-]
Tanya's problem is she is trying to pass a 2-dimensional array in C.
If function tries to reference it as **array, this is looked at as a
pointer to a pointer to an int, while the array[10][3] declaration does NOT.
The array[10][3] declares a single section of memory, and the compiler
handles all of the pointer arithmatic. (It basically does the same thing
you or I would do if we tried to implement a 2-dimensional array using
a one dimensional array.)
I have found this point to be actually the most confusing point in parameter
passing. The ONLY way to pass in that array is as array[][3], which allows
the compiler to know how many items are in the second dimension, and thus how
much to increment the pointer by for the first dimension.
Rusty -- Gee, I did learn something in Staley's 240 class!
--
rla...@galaxy.calpoly.edu | Magic is real -- unless declared integer.
Rusty Larner (805)545-0708 | -- the collected sayings of Wiz Zumwalt
Sleep -- isn't that a completely inadequate substitute for caffeine?
Chris Conley
In article <4lkdtn$b...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu>,
Chris Buckalew <buck...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>>>No, one lecture won't do to prove your hypothesis. I would invite you to
>>>try to become a 118 instructor and teach the course for a quarter.
>>
>>You know, if I thought for a moment that Cal Poly would let me do such
>>a thing, I'd take you up on that and do it!
>
>let instructors without a Masters' degree teach classes within the major.
>Nothing personal, you understand... if it were up to us... :-)
Uh, how come Grad Students(no MS) get to teach all the way up to 400 level
classes in the major? On top of no teaching credential.
Just Curious,
TheFinn
Chris Buckalew
Chris Conley <cco...@oblivion.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>
>Uh, how come Grad Students(no MS) get to teach all the way up to 400 level
> classes in the major? On top of no teaching credential.
Teaching credentials??! We don't need no stinkin' teaching credentials!
Seriously, what class is this? Courses that may be counted toward the major
(except the first one or two) are not supposed to be taught by anyone without
a Master's. That's not to say that it absolutely cannot be done, but we may
have to explain the circumstances to CSAB and they have to buy it.
Chris
Kevin Wang (The Scarecrow)
In poly.dept.csc cco...@oblivion.csc.calpoly.edu (Chris Conley) writes:
>In article <4lkdtn$b...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu>,
>Chris Buckalew <buck...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>>Christopher Ambler <ch...@kosh.punk.net> wrote:
>>>ml...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu (Mei-Ling Liu) says:
>>>>No, one lecture won't do to prove your hypothesis. I would invite you to
>>>>try to become a 118 instructor and teach the course for a quarter.
>>>
>>>You know, if I thought for a moment that Cal Poly would let me do such
>>>a thing, I'd take you up on that and do it!
>>
>>We'd love to have you do that, but dang it! our accrediting agency doesn't
>>let instructors without a Masters' degree teach classes within the major.
>>Nothing personal, you understand... if it were up to us... :-)
>
> classes in the major? On top of no teaching credential.
well, I don't think you need teaching credentials to teach
anything higher than highschool...
- Kevin
Chris Buckalew
Hypnotist of Ladies <ntu...@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>Chris Buckalew <buck...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Seriously, what class is this? Courses that may be counted toward the major
>>(except the first one or two) are not supposed to be taught by anyone without
>>a Master's.
>
>(not that there's anything wrong with that...just curious).
No, labs are OK - just try and ask a UT professor to teach a lab! In fact,
as far as accreditation is concerned, large lectures are OK as long as students
have small labs or discussion sections (probably not with the prof).
Chris
Chris Buckalew
Chris Conley <cco...@oblivion.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>
><hrm> 245, 445, 447, 315, 118, 218, 240, I think that is it(I am not
> 100% sure about 447). I have seen all of these taught at one time or another
> by a grad student.
Some of our grad students actually have Masters' degrees in related fields,
besides work experience, but most don't. But if it happens too often, we're
in trouble.
Chris
Hypnotist of Ladies
Chris Buckalew <buck...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>Chris Conley <cco...@oblivion.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Uh, how come Grad Students(no MS) get to teach all the way up to 400 level
>> classes in the major? On top of no teaching credential.
>
>(except the first one or two) are not supposed to be taught by anyone without
>a Master's.
Does this count for labs too? My 450 lab was taught by a grad student...
(not that there's anything wrong with that...just curious).
-Neal Tucker
--
____________________________________________________________________________
It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.
Chris Conley
Buckalew wrote:
>
>Seriously, what class is this? Courses that may be counted toward the major
>(except the first one or two) are not supposed to be taught by anyone without
>have to explain the circumstances to CSAB and they have to buy it.
<hrm> 245, 445, 447, 315, 118, 218, 240, I think that is it(I am not
100% sure about 447). I have seen all of these taught at one time or another
by a grad student.
<shrug> I had a blast in Eric Aldrich I 's 245 class, got alot out of it(and
even used it later <gasp>)
TheFinn
Shawn David Jacques
In article <4lulc3$f...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu>,
Chris Buckalew <buck...@denali.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>Chris Conley <cco...@oblivion.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Uh, how come Grad Students(no MS) get to teach all the way up to 400 level
>> classes in the major? On top of no teaching credential.
>
>
>(except the first one or two) are not supposed to be taught by anyone without
>a Master's. That's not to say that it absolutely cannot be done, but we may
>have to explain the circumstances to CSAB and they have to buy it.
>
I was taught 346 by a grad student....whose now my boss. :-)
Jax
Mark Lewis Townsend
In article <4lhrch$c...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu>,
Mei-Ling Liu <ml...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>Fall: that's 13*35 ~= 450 students. It's been estimated that 40%
>of our 118 students are non-CSc/CPE majors. In the class that I
>teach currently, 50% of the students have majors in history, MIS, math,
>etc. other than CSc/CPE. Some students truly have no background in pro-
>gramming, and the course in fact has no prerequisite. Those students
My answer to this comment is to do what CSC 440 does. They have a special
section for all those MIS/Business majors. This section isn't has "hard
core" as the section of Majors. Why couldn't this be done for 118/218?
Carlen Hoppe
In article <4m62lb$e...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu>,
Mark Lewis Townsend <mtow...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>My answer to this comment is to do what CSC 440 does. They have a special
>section for all those MIS/Business majors. This section isn't has "hard
>core" as the section of Majors. Why couldn't this be done for 118/218?
Perhaps a "non-majors" section would work for 118/218/345 but I fear there
would be problems in sheduling. These are often the first programming
classes that an MIS student has ever had. The MIS department uses the full
strength CSC345 class to filter/weed out students before they get into the
swing of things.
I would much prefer to see a "remedial" class (say CSC018) to be added to
the 118/218/345 series. You would have to take a placement test (like
MAPE) in order to get into the series. First time programming students
could skip the test and take CSC018 (just like MATH118) and come up to
speed on basic programming concepts. Of couse if you did really well you
could skip 118 or even 218 too.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlen Hoppe cho...@oboe.calpoly.edu
Darrin Lee Bright
In article <4mh0t3$1c...@tuba.aix.calpoly.edu>,
Carlen Hoppe <cho...@tuba.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>In article <4m62lb$e...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu>,
>Mark Lewis Townsend <mtow...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>>My answer to this comment is to do what CSC 440 does. They have a special
>>section for all those MIS/Business majors. This section isn't has "hard
>>core" as the section of Majors. Why couldn't this be done for 118/218?
>Perhaps a "non-majors" section would work for 118/218/345 but I fear there
>would be problems in sheduling. These are often the first programming
>classes that an MIS student has ever had. The MIS department uses the full
>strength CSC345 class to filter/weed out students before they get into the
>swing of things.
There is a class called CSC-204, "C and Unix" that is specifically
designed for non-CSC majors. In fact, I'm not sure CSC majors can even
get credit for the course. Is it still being offered? I think it was
just a basic C class, but I *do* remember being taught pointers, I
think. I don't really remember much about pointers, but I think it was
in 204.
--
"Uh...yeah, I uh... suck blood all the time..." - The Tick
--
* * * Darrin Bright - Duck Ezra - Muse of Tedium * * *
= = ============================================ = =
bryan klech
Christopher Ambler (ch...@kosh.punk.net) wrote:
: I suppose this should be in slo.flame, but I am serious in that I want
: someone from Cal Poly's CSC department to read this.
and then again, toher times I am totally impressed by them. I ran into a
friend in a lab today who was having a hell of a time with a 118
assignment... she couldn't get the thing to compile... while glancing at
her code we chatted about her class, what they covered, what she thought of
the instructer and such...
the problem was solved when I explained to her when one can and cannot get
away with excluding the surrounding braces for the body of an if statement.
I relayed the details of this encounter to her teacher through email,
mentioning that this is probably cause to put a few minutes into an upcoming
lecture on this particular topic. I got a friendly responce that it had
been already covered, but a reminder wouldn't hurt.
It is good to see the appreciative attitude with which these comments were
received, and maintains my faith that we do have good people trying to work
miracles around here.
thanks to those dedicated individuals who make up the csc department, and
the entire univerity for that matter, and especially those who make the
extra effort to make it special.
indeed be covered
--
-- bryan klech "They ask me if I feel remorse and I
-- industrial engineering answer, 'Why of course! There is so
-- cal poly, san luis obispo much more I could have done if they'd
-- bkl...@drseuss.acs.calpoly.edu let me!'"
-- http://www.calpoly.edu/~bklech -- Nick Cave