Possible Google Groups issue

[Murray/Sheasgreen]

Is any one but me having problems with google group? I've had to post
a couple of things twice recently?

Greg/Sheasgreen

[Hilary Doda]

The website hasn't been loading for me recently (the groups website,
that is) - I've had to post via email only.

This might be a good time to discuss the future of the game, actually...
if google groups is sliding downhill, what's plan B?

1) Are enough people interested in keeping it going? It's been very
quiet lately.

2) If we still have enough folks to keep the game going (let's say six
consistent players, minimum - we can do a lot with that, even if
everyone else bails), do we keep it play by email, or shift to a
different format (forum posting, say)?

3) If we want to keep it play by email, is there another service that
does what google groups does? We used to use Yahoo groups, but that got
bought out by and turned into google groups. What are our email list
w/web archive options?

Hilary

[Greg Murray]

1. I'd like to keep going.
2. Forum might work or could we have multiple people posting to a blog?
3. I was looking and yahoo groups is back and has a play by mail
section.
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalwars/?v=1&t=directory&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=dir&slk=2

[Richard Morris]

Definitely would like to keep going with the game and the forum seems to
work well elsewhere. Certainly would cut down on JPs that hold up the
other players since it's all done openly. We're used to the email setup,
of course, so I'd be okay with that too, but perhaps we should come up
with some rules regulating JPs. Like announce that you're doing one and
put a time limit on it. Some JPs have killed threads entirely.
-Rich

[David Klecha]

I'm definitely interested in keeping going, though I know I've been one of
the leading nominees for "Slowest JPer of the Year." (It's been A Year like
that.)

I could go for either staying with e-mail or going to a forum... or finding
forum software that will do e-mail digests? Something like that? I dunno.

I'm also in favor of setting up some rules for JPs or something to try to
keep things moving a little more quickly.

Dave

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[Katie Young]

I definitely want to keep going! And I'm also one of the slow JPers this year, sorry everyone.

I prefer pbem to forums (though I'm getting used to the latter a little more now!) I have had issues with Google Groups for years, but never had problems with Yahoo Groups before. I think there may be a software like the one Dave K mentions, I vaguely remember it from ST sims of old...

JP rules would be good but they'd only work if we all worked to keep to them. Maybe a weekly JP round up on the OOC groups of what's in the works would be useful, and also would be a continuous activity check type thing the CO/2iC can do?

[William Ziegler]

I'm all in for continuing, as well!  I've never really had too much trouble with Google Groups (other than the rare 'hiccup'), but have no strong feelings about it one way or the other.  Either PBEM or forum-type posting is fine with me.

 

-Z

[Rob Underwood]

I definitely want to keep going - This is the biggest and longest sim
I have ever enjoyed! This new assignment puts me into the field for
over 180 days - it's as bad as being deployed, especially when the Air
Force is playing "Yes we will, no we won't " with personal e-mail
access. So I think it's definitely been a much slower year for me as
well - but not for a lack of interest!!!

I myself haven't seen any issues with Google Groups - not even a
hiccup! I am not a fan of Forum boards, simply because I have often
found myself lost in trying to find which board I'm supposed to read,
and where to post, and so on. For me personally, flipping through
twenty separate entries of conversation drive me nuts. To me, it
looks like this:

"What?" He cried.

"Nothing." She returned, concentrating on the issue at hand.

"Oh. I thought you were in trouble." He peered at what she was doing
carefully.

"I'm always in trouble, you know. Hand me that wrench."

E-mails look far more like reading a book - they are cohesive,
paragraph forms that tend to have a more page-like feel. But overall,
in the interests of keeping the sim moving forward and working, I will
go along with the most popular vote. And yes - perhaps some JP time
limits would be useful - but I find that if I start a JP and have an
idea that I will be delayed, communicating that (even if it's a few
words) helps out a lot!

There's my .02....

- Rob U

[Lisa Ann Dulin]

I too would like to continue!  I haven't had any problems with google groups, personally, but Yahoo groups is still up and running.  Forums don't work well for me for some reason.  I just don't seem to know how to do them, where to begin, how to reliably continue.  I would be game for some rules, some accountability.  I know for me, I got my Master's this summer and started a new program, but once I'm settled into a routine again, things'll be better for me.

-Lisa

"I am feeling fine,
Mist in lungs, missed in mind."

[Hilary Doda]

The thing is, we have solid rules about posting frequency. It's just that everybody, including -perhaps especially, considering how many characters we have - the admin ignore them. If we were to actually drop everyone from the game who missed a two-week posting interval, we'd literally have no characters left. Including my own. :P

One thing I like very much about forum posting is that you can flag threads by date and it becomes much easier to post forward/backpost, and so those who are stuck in one thread because, say, someone has finals or a newborn or has been deployed, can post in others while they wait. That, and instead of waiting months for a rumoured JP to get posted, everyone can see the progress and then jump in or out as necessary. Overall, it seems to make the process much more transparent.

If we did switch, just to answer Rob, we'd keep the two-paragraph post length requirement, so content shouldn't substantially change.

For me, it comes down to momentum and interest - how can we get them, and keep them going once we do?

/thinking aloud

Hilary (defended and passed my MA on Tuesday!)

Sent from my CrackBerry smartphone

---

From: Lisa Ann Dulin <age...@gmail.com>

Sender: skywat...@googlegroups.com

Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:53:02 -0500

To: <skywat...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: skywat...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [SG: Skywatch OOC] Possible Google Groups issue

[Kitty Don]

Am here again- speaking of absent parties- having finished *&@$%$ finals
and birthday bull.
Google groups is having issues, even on my study groups. With them
cutting page content thread based forum posting might be good. I know
someone who sets up really awesome Nova sites. It would take him about a
week to build, but he does it for free because he's looking for sites to
use as references for his web design business.

Kitty

[Dave Wilson]

    I'd like to keep playing, this has been a lot of fun.  I'd prefer to keep using the email system, but if the majority prefer the forum system then let's try that..

    Dave

[Hilary Doda]

If we do go forum, I have software (invision - what's Nova?) and a site design in mind already. I've been playing in a game that uses the format very well, and in a way that can be copied and integrated nicely with the site we already have. Unless he wants to do a full site redesign for us, including the wiki. :P

Hilary

Sent from my CrackBerry smartphone

-----Original Message-----
From: Kitty Don <tuebo...@gmail.com>
Sender: skywat...@googlegroups.com
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 13:07:26
To: <skywat...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-to: skywat...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [SG: Skywatch OOC] Possible Google Groups issue

[Lisa Ann Dulin]

I'm totally willing to try forums again, but the last time I did, it wasn't good.  I'll go with whatever Management decides, but I will beg for everyone's patience with me.

-Lisa

"I am feeling fine,
Mist in lungs, missed in mind."

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[Robert]

I'm looking forward to continuing.

Not a fan of forums.

If Google Groups really is too unstable to keep going with, Yahoo Groups
would be a viable alternative. If we could get the webspace, we could
host our own lists with Mailman: http://www.list.org/

Robert

[Greg Murray]

I've worked with the forums before and they're ok. My only problem (and
it is my problem) is the glitchy nature of the software at work and band
width. If I'm deployed I can still do email but our firewall may block
the forum.

One thing, that a forum would allow would the use of sticky posts that
could allow mission facts can to be quickly referenced.

For post rules anything that helps keep the flow would be good.
Greg

On 12/15/2011 8:59 PM, Hilary Doda wrote:

[Hilary Doda]

It's looking like most folks are happier with email, so we can
definitely stick with that. Maybe there's a way to create a backup group
on yahoo groups or some such that we can use if/when google groups goes
down for any length of time.

As for posting, there's no sense creating more rules if we're not
following the ones we already have. Obviously, I'm reluctant to dump
someone from the game for missing posting deadlines. How do we effect a
game-culture shift where we can feel comfortable posting ahead or
skipping turns, or folks are more inclined to stay in touch wr/t backed
up schedules?

One option might be to ban JPs during missions - leave them for downtime
only. Instead, folks could post each tag in its own post, with a
directed tag at the bottom - [open] or [Fulci] or [Hicks or Quinn] or
what have you to let people know what's expected as a reply. That would
ensure that everyone knows what's going on, rather than having half a
team vanish into the ether for a few weeks.

Thoughts?

Hilary

[Richard Morris]

TOTALLY AGREE!
JP all you like with personal stories that take place between missions.
But a mission needs to have shown progress for all the team. The only
kind of JP that works for a whole team is when the whole team is in on
the JP. And if you're doing that, why bother at all?

Mission = no jp.
I vote this.

-Rich

[Greg Murray]

It has my vote. (mission= no jp )

For G groups I'll the sight rather than relying on the mail forwarding
and it should be ok.

Greg

[Sarah Kramer]

So it sounds like this is going to keep going which is good but, that being said, I've gotten super busy lately (about after I created Madeline and work started requiring us to work endless hours of overtime) and after I finish up with the posts I'm currently working on I'm going to need to take a LOA for a bit until things calm down.  I do have the time my brain has just been rather fried.  I was on vacation this week and thought about it a lot but find myself at the end of it and still exhausted.  But I digress...

 

I like the PBeM format but have never used forums so *shrugs*.

 

I do feel there should be some kind of post requirements but we will all have to uphold them somehow as there's really no way to regulate.  I do get frustrated when I get slow responses consistently and tend to then not want to keep it going myself.  I am admittedly bad about replying sometimes, too, though.

 

OK, that's my input.  Off to reply to the JPs currently in my inbox waiting for replies...

 

Sarah

From: Hilary Doda <hd...@eastlink.ca>
To: skywat...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [SG: Skywatch OOC] Possible Google Groups issue

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[Robert]

For regulation/ enforcement of posting rules/ guidelines, I have a
suggestion; it just requires a little bookkeeping responsibility on the
part of the team leader.

At regular intervals the team leader posts a tally of the team's total
posts for that interval, with previous intervals included. For example,
if this is done weekly, a team's weekly report might look like:

SG-13 (role): W1| W2| w3| w4|| Total
-----------------------------------
Dallas (OIC): 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 || 5
Ripley (2IC): 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 || 7
Parker (Civ): 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 || 3
Ash (Science): 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 || 6
-----------------------------------
Team Total: 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 || 21

Every week you just roll the numbers, so the last 4 weeks' worth of
posts are always shown. Or maybe we do the previous month's worth of
numbers posted at the beginning of each month. Whatever the interval,
once posted the data is automatically archived for future reference.

This way, everyone on the team knows:
A) That someone /is/ keeping track,
B) where they stand,
C) who is falling behind and may need a little help with getting some
inspirado,
D) who isn't generally reliable for an expedient joint post.

And the team leader, specifically, knows:
1) How "healthy" his/her team is,
2) who is falling behind and may need a little help with getting some
inspirado.
3) who is falling /way/ behind and may need to take a leave of absence
if not have a talk about being dropped from the roster entirely.

In addition, the group admins can see:
a) How each team is looking, thus how "healthy" the group is,
b) how players with multiple characters are holding up each character,
c) how regional holidays / seasonal changes affect the group over time.

I'm sure there's more information to be gleaned from the above matrix,
but that's what comes to mind off-hand. As long as everyone understands
the posting requirements, and the team leader is serious about enforcing
them for the good of the team, this would be a valuable tool to keeping
the team cohesive and active.

Also, its a little thing and shouldn't take too long to complete.
However, if the team leader (or whoever ends up doing it) wants to add
anything, they can have their own section before the post count to give
encouraging words, a summary of the week/ month, the best quotes, some
detail/ direction on the coming week/month/mission, etc, et al, ad
nauseum, per their individual desires/ interests for the team.

And on a side note for a different discussion: I personally love joint
posts, and prefer them to solo posts both on and off mission. However,
I understand that the irregularity of the majority of the player base
isn't conducive to crafting them. Maybe if we can instill some
regularity, "joint post" won't be such a dirty phrase...

Robert

On 12/18/2011 1:25 AM, Sarah Kramer wrote:
> So it sounds like this is going to keep going which is good but, that
> being said, I've gotten super busy lately (about after I created
> Madeline and work started requiring us to work endless hours of
> overtime) and after I finish up with the posts I'm currently working on
> I'm going to need to take a LOA for a bit until things calm down. I do
> have the time my brain has just been rather fried. I was on vacation
> this week and thought about it a lot but find myself at the end of it
> and still exhausted. But I digress...
> I like the PBeM format but have never used forums so *shrugs*.
> I do feel there should be some kind of post requirements but we will all
> have to uphold them somehow as there's really no way to regulate. I do
> get frustrated when I get slow responses consistently and tend to then
> not want to keep it going myself. I am admittedly bad about replying
> sometimes, too, though.
> OK, that's my input. Off to reply to the JPs currently in my inbox
> waiting for replies...
> Sarah
>

> *From:* Hilary Doda <hd...@eastlink.ca>
> *To:* skywat...@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:59 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [SG: Skywatch OOC] Possible Google Groups issue

>
> The website hasn't been loading for me recently (the groups website,
> that is) - I've had to post via email only.
>
> This might be a good time to discuss the future of the game, actually...
> if google groups is sliding downhill, what's plan B?
>
> 1) Are enough people interested in keeping it going? It's been very
> quiet lately.
>
> 2) If we still have enough folks to keep the game going (let's say six
> consistent players, minimum - we can do a lot with that, even if
> everyone else bails), do we keep it play by email, or shift to a
> different format (forum posting, say)?
>
> 3) If we want to keep it play by email, is there another service that
> does what google groups does? We used to use Yahoo groups, but that got
> bought out by and turned into google groups. What are our email list
> w/web archive options?
>
> Hilary
>
> On 12/15/2011 08:54 PM, Murray/Sheasgreen wrote:
> > Is any one but me having problems with google group? I've had to post
> > a couple of things twice recently?
> >
> > Greg/Sheasgreen
> >
>
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[HilaryDoda]

That's a really interesting idea. It requires the COs to step up and do a bit of bookwork, but I'd be willing to give it a shot. I think condensing teams is going to be required again, given LOAs and absences - normally we discuss this all on the admin list, but heck, maybe that separation is part of a communication breakdown as well. We'll do a roll call once everyone (including Rich and I - we're visiting family right now) is back in January and see where we all stand.

Along the topic of streamlining, a perrenial subject of discussion on the admin list has been setting a date system for the game/picking a year to be playing in. We've been handwaving it so long that some character profiles are set back in 2002, while new characters being built have lived through 2010 and now 2011 before showing up at the SGC. It'd be some work, again, but how do folks feel about picking an official year - 2008, say - and reconciling profiles to fit? It would be a big help for new folks coming in - that's the question I get asked the most when we have a new inquiry about the game (what year are you set in), and it's the one we have the most difficult time answering. To make it work, we'd set a date which is 'present day' for everyone, and then date postsv from there. Backposts can be made more clearly that way, as can forward posts - if a team's mission gets bogged down and someone wants to post with a PC from another team who's ahead, they could just date the post 'Feb 2, 2008' while their team was still back in January. It would take a bit of bookkeeping for the COs, again, but would probably make things simpler for players.

Thoughts?

Hilary

[Paul W]

There was a similar idea used in a previous RPG I was a member of that had fortnightly reports by the CO to the admins that gave regular posting levels of each player and had notes for people deserving of recognition for potential advancement.

I don't agree with cutting JPs in-mission. I think you'll still end up waiting for key individuals within the team should things slow down (I'm not exempt from this...). I also think it would make you feel slightly less 'involved' if you don't get regular tags and the general feel will be less team-based. Not a fan of forum-based gaming either. I much prefer using emails as I can reply to quick tags via my Blackberry.

I'm not so much fussed by the dating system, but I imagine that a lot of people would like to update their characters' profiles once in a while as they develop - for instance if the character has been in the SGC a while then it would make sense to add certain highlights in there.

Just a few comments from me...hope not too negative!

- Paul

---

From: HilaryDoda <hd...@eastlink.ca>
To: skywat...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [SG: Skywatch OOC] Possible Google Groups issue

[Denise K]

Sorry it's taken me so long to chime in on this.  I haven't had problems (that I know of) with google groups, though I've had a variety of emails sent to my spam folder, some even from other gmail addresses or addresses that previously went to my inbox.  Not sure of the cause, but it's been an issue for the past several weeks, at least.  I don't have a problem playing on a forum, if that's the general consensus.  I admit, I've been terrible at keeping up with posting this past year and hope to improve my own interaction.  It's possible that a new interface that can keep track of the number of postings, etc, will guilt me into staying on track.  If a mission has it's own thread, it is almost like a whole team JP, only not held up in individual inboxes.  I like the idea of possibly having different threads for different storylines, both on and off mission.