SLOVAK/SLOVENIAN.... SLAVIC/SLAVISH
Tim Cuprisin
>
> Can someone please explain the difference between slovenian and slovak
> languages. Also clarification of the terms slavic and slavish would be
> helpful.
SLOVAK is part of the Western Slavic language group, most closely
related to Czech and Polish
SLOVENIAN is part of the South Slavic language group, more closely
related to Serbian and Croatian.
But Slovenian and Slovak are related as SLAVIC languages. They share
much basic vocabulary and ultimately have a common root language.
It's similar to Spanish, French and Italian being separate , but
related as ROMANCE languages.
As for SLAVISH, it's an Americanism that some people have used to
describe to describe their ancestry. People who call themselves SLAVISH
are usually Carpatho-Rusyns who speak an East Slavic language, most
closely related to Ukrainian and Russian. SLAVISH is a meaningless term
that has fallen out of favor.
--Tim Cuprisin
cupr...@execpc.com
gergely
Pa area, I noticed that the term "Slavish" used quite frequently among
older people of probable Rusyn descent when discussing language. This
doesn't imply that the term isn't obsolete, just that you may encounter
it amoung older speakers of the language.
Jack Gergely
Joy Kovalycsik
here in my area use it, all said they spoke Ruthenian, it seems though
children of Slovaks here had a habit of using it when explaining what they
were speaking and, I have found the term is used moreso with people who live
mostly in the PA areas. There is no such language as Slavish and again, for
my area, the term is used very, very little, guess it all depended how
strong people identified with their heritage and how much they knew about
it, if they knew little, they could not explain it to others and therefore,
would use terms such as this.
Best Regards,
Joy K
PRa...@aol.com
Pat
John Matsko
>describe to describe their ancestry. People who call themselves SLAVISH
>are usually Carpatho-Rusyns who speak an East Slavic language, most
No one in my neighborhood spoke or were "Slobbish". Most of my buddies
parents spoke Slovak. I grew up with parents who were proud of being
"Rusyn" and spoke Rusyn. They even made an effort to get me to learn to
speak and write Rusyn. Sending me to Rusyn School at our Greek Catholic
church after school was a good try on their part, but I was a great heel
dragger at that age (as were my buddies) when it came to anything that
might put a "foreign" label on me. Sitting in class a couple of extra
hours a day wasn't an insignificant factor in my resistance movement.
Speaking of movements, on the way home from Rusyn school one October day,
we all stopped to soap up a local butcher shop window. I was about 6 or 7
and the others were 10 to 12 years old. I was so busy trying to be
creative that I didn't notice that everyone else had run off. The next
thing I knew I felt myself rising above the ground by about 2 feet. Mr.
butcher had grabbed me by the back of my collar with one hand and lifted me
into the air as if I was a large ham. He then walked up the two steps to
the door and walked into the shop. Call the police!! were his first
words to his wife who was behind the counter. Not wanting them to think I
meant them any harm, I showed submission by wetting my pants. My sister
returned and pleaded for my release with success. It just proved to me
that nothing good could come from going to Rusyn school. Times change.
That first encounter with Cyrillic was helpful when I studied Russian (with
just a bit more success) many years later.
John
Mary Ann Setzer
and had to smile when reading it. It so reminded me of my brothers at those
ages.
Mary Ann
-----Original Message-----
From: John Matsko <jma...@prodigy.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <slovak...@fris.sk>
John Matsko
NOT IN MY BACK YARD ;-) That story was circa 1937-38.
John
EDWARD T. SURKOSKY
empire, Slovaks were usually referred to as Slavish. Slovakia as a separate
entity was not known by others at this time. The Slovak Church in Windber
was called the Slavish Church and its pastor was known as the Slavish
priest. It was not until the the end of World War I that the term Slavish
was dropped and Slovak adopted. This was because everyone was aware of the
existence of the new country of Czech-Slovakia.
The Slovaks knew the difference, Slovak was on the cornerstone of the
church, it was the rest of the Americans that had to be educated. The term
Slavish slowly disappeared after the formation of the new country in our
area.
Ed Surkosky - ets...@nb.net
----------
> From: gergely <ger...@visi.net>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <slovak...@fris.sk>
> Subject: Re: SLOVAK/SLOVENIAN.... SLAVIC/SLAVISH
> Date: Saturday, July 11, 1998 6:43 AM
>
> Not to contradict Tim, but from very recent observation in the Latrobe,
> Pa area, I noticed that the term "Slavish" used quite frequently among
> older people of probable Rusyn descent when discussing language. This
> doesn't imply that the term isn't obsolete, just that you may encounter
> it amoung older speakers of the language.
>
> Jack Gergely
>
gergely
Thanks,
Jack Gergely
Tim Cuprisin
>
> At the turn of the century, when Austria-Hungary was still extant as an
> empire, Slovaks were usually referred to as Slavish. Slovakia as a separate
> entity was not known by others at this time.
Non-Slavs have always incorrectly labelled Slavs. They still do. Ask
most people what a Slovak is or where Slovakia is located and you'll get
a blank stare even today.
The use of the term "Slavish" by non-Slavs in 1918 isn't the issue here.
It's the incorrect use of "Slavish" today when someone describes their
ethnicity, or the language of their ancestors.
When someone asks what "Slavish" means, and you dig a little deeper,
it's usually a term their grandmother or grandfather used to describe
their own confused ethnic identity. It's almost always someone of
Carpatho-Rusyn descent.
--Tim Cuprisin
cupr...@execpc.com
Joy Kovalycsik
>
>The use of the term "Slavish" by non-Slavs in 1918 isn't the issue here.
>It's the incorrect use of "Slavish" today when someone describes their
>ethnicity, or the language of their ancestors.
>
>When someone asks what "Slavish" means, and you dig a little deeper,
>it's usually a term their grandmother or grandfather used to describe
>their own confused ethnic identity. It's almost always someone of
>Carpatho-Rusyn descent.
>
I agree to a point with Tim but, the fact for my area is that no Rusyn here
called themselves Slavish, all the older people I knew, the many I have
interviewed for research and also their kids for the most part knew they
were Ruthenian and said so. I think it all depends upon the area they were
in and, if they had a strong sense of identity and were willing to stick to
it instead of going along with whatever else was prevelent. Seems to me
from my research this happens alot in PA from the people I have spoken to.
Also, I dont think it was such a loss of identity as a willingness to "go
along", many immigrants (not only Rusyns) just wanted to get along in peace,
if they lived in areas where their numbers were low, it was much easier to
say Slavish to someone who was say German, than to try to go into
explainations of who they were since they had no country (i.e. Rusyns,
Slovaks, Czechs, etc) of their own at that time and most people in America
would not (or could not) figure them out except for an easy to understand
answer. Just my thoughts and experiences on this issue.
Best Regards,
Joy K
Karen & Bill Dreucci
I just located the 1912 Pennsylvania Report of the Department of Mines.
All fatal and non-fatal accidents are reported by the miner's name and
the cause of the accident. My great-grandfather, Daniel Karkosiak from
central Slovakia, is listed as "SLAVONIAN." Is that a term that
somebody invented, or does it actually mean something?
Karen D.
BARBARA P.
and they were Carpatho-Rusyn.
She said some other words funny so I guess I didn't take her too seriously
(like PIE-ano.....and of course gumbands and rede up )
Barbara
j...@gsphdean.gsph.pitt.edu
Slavonian is a real word, it's another old-fashioned generic term for
Slavic, which was probably the usage in your gr-gdf's case. I think the
British still use a variation, Slavonic.
Slavonian has a second more specific meaning that's still in use:
pertaining to Slavonia, a region between the Sava and Drava rivers in
eastern Croatia.
I think we're all getting a headache...
K2...@aol.com
Wakefield listed on your list? Would be quite interested if you would be able
to take the time to look.
Kathie
Antiq...@aol.com
<< In reference to this term "slavish", I never heard the older Rusyn peoples
here in my area use it, all said they spoke Ruthenian, it seems though
children of Slovaks here had a habit of using it when explaining what they
were speaking and, I have found the term is used moreso with people who live
mostly in the PA areas. There is no such language as Slavish and again, for
my area, the term is used very, very little, guess it all depended how
strong people identified with their heritage and how much they knew about
it, if they knew little, they could not explain it to others and therefore,
would use terms such as this. >>
And donning asbestos underwear, Vova chuckles. . . The "Slavish" I have seen
on numerous family documents - both Slovak and Rusyn - from the 1880s to the
teens. Moreover it is used in several generic Slavic history books, most of
which were written by Germans and Austrians, hence the very Germanic ending
-ish - vz. German "ich," and "isch, " as in "Wendisch" and "Sorbisch." Of
course, there is no such language as "Ruthenian" either, although the term has
been used to describe everything from Russian to the Gurale dialects of
Poland. Interestingly, it achieved its most recent parlance during WWII, NOT
in the Carpathians, but in the Baranovichi and Minsk locii of the German
sponsored local administration of "Weiss-Ruthenien" or White Ruthenia.
Vova
antiq...@aol.com
Mike Budd & Family
spoke many languages like Slovak, Winnish...and I may not have that
spelling right, perhaps it was Wendisch as below, but what is it?
----------
> From: Antiq...@aol.com
> To: Multiple recipients of list <slovak...@fris.sk>
> Subject: Re: SLOVAK/SLOVENIAN.... SLAVIC/SLAVISH
> Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 10:31 PM
Antiq...@aol.com
<<
I once asked my family about languages and a great uncle told me that they
spoke many languages like Slovak, Winnish...and I may not have that
spelling right, perhaps it was Wendisch as below, but what is it?
>>
"Wendisch" is a Germanic (Saxon) generic term for Slavs, seen in Saxon texts
since the 8th century. It was used as a descriptor for Kasubians, Polavians
and Sorbs, the westernmost Slavs who survived into modern times (The Sorbs are
still around, and even survived being Slavic in Nazi Germany, only to become
East Germany's fashionable minority in the fifties and sixties.) They are
still there, and have a literary language, which is one of the definitions of
being a 'nation.' Interestingly enough, if 'literary language' is described
as printed text in that language, Sorbs have been literary a lot longer than
most Slavs. The first bible printing into Sorbic I have seen dates to 1506!!
The key is printing. .
If you look at any German or Austrian gazeteer, you will find countless town
names that begin with "Wendisch," or some form of it. These were usually
Slavic Ring-burgs of the 8th - 13th century, which is when the vast bulk of
the Western Slavs were displaced.
A linguistic note: Sorbic is most closely related to Slovak, then Czech.
Vova
antiq...@aol.com
Joy Kovalycsik
Ofcourse, there is no such language as "Ruthenian" either, although the term
has
>been used to describe everything from Russian to the Gurale dialects of
>Poland.
I hate to burst your bubble but there IS a Ruthenian language and on all my
family documents (and many of friends) who immigrated here from the 1880's
on the name RUTHENIAN is written for heritage, not Slovak, not Russian, not
Ukrainian. The reason it was not put on for some was that depending on the
person writing you up and according to his prejudices he would classify you,
and, if the person persisted enough and would not give in to the label
someone else wanted to put on you they would put what you told them. Europe
has been doing that to the Ruthenians for centuries and I have also read
where there was no actual codified Slovak language until after WWI, just
because it was not recongnized does not mean it did (or does) not exist.
Best Regards,
Joy K
Antiq...@aol.com
[Joy] << hate to burst your bubble but there IS a Ruthenian language and on
all my
family documents (and many of friends) who immigrated here from the 1880's
on the name RUTHENIAN is written for heritage, not Slovak, not Russian, not
Ukrainian. The reason it was not put on for some was that depending on the
person writing you up and according to his prejudices he would classify you,
and, if the person persisted enough and would not give in to the label
someone else wanted to put on you they would put what you told them. Europe
has been doing that to the Ruthenians for centuries and I have also read
where there was no actual codified Slovak language until after WWI, just
because it was not recongnized does not mean it did (or does) not exist.
Best Regards,
Joy K
[Vova] Joy - I do not dispute the existance of Rusyn. My comment was: there
is no such thing as a Ruthenian language. The word has been used to term
everything from north to south, independently of the Carpathians. There have
been printed "Ruthenian" texts as far north as Vilna and as far south as Banja
Luka. I know that it is/was fashionable for Rusyns to claim this word as
their own, but that does not change the fact that the word has been used to
describe all Slavs for much longer than Dukhnovich and his ideas.
This was not meant to be an offensive post, so forgive me if that's what
happened.
>>> [Vova, original] Interestingly, it achieved its most recent parlance
during WWII, NOT in the Carpathians, but in the Baranovichi and Minsk locii of
the German
sponsored local administration of "Weiss-Ruthenien" or White Ruthenia. >>
The above is factual - I have numerous copies of the Ruthenian newspapers from
Baranovichi and Minsk.
Vova
antiq...@aol.com
Joy Kovalycsik
emotions. All I was saying though is that you are mistaken, there is a
Ruthenian language, if not, then what are the Rusyns speaking?, it is not
Ukrainian as some would like to state, it is not Slovak (I have Slovak
friends who cannot understand my Rusyn relatives when they speak) and it
sure is not Polish, therefore, it is a language due to the fact that it
exists. Now, what authors and their particular political ideas wish to
state are there own opinions, not necessarily the truth to the issue. As
you are aware much bally-who has been given down through the centuries on
what and who Rusyns are, etc., it is no wonder that different authors give
different opinions, all minorities suffer the same fate and it is not
confined to those of Ruthenian heritage, if I read my history correctly the
Slovaks were just as persecuted under the Hungarians during the times of the
Austro-Hungarian Empire and I am sure if we read their commentaries they
were not favorable towards them either.
The language issue has been debated for centuries without resolution, but,
the language is indeed still spoken, written and used. May I suggest you
read some of the writings of the ZIRS Association in Slovakia.
Best Regards and no hard feelings at all, just good discussion.
Joy K
-----Original Message-----
From: Antiq...@aol.com <Antiq...@aol.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <slovak...@fris.sk>
Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: SLOVAK/SLOVENIAN.... SLAVIC/SLAVISH
Antiq...@aol.com
<< Vova: No offense taken at all, unfortunately the typed word cannot convey
emotions. All I was saying though is that you are mistaken, there is a
Ruthenian language, if not, then what are the Rusyns speaking?, it is not
Ukrainian as some would like to state, it is not Slovak (I have Slovak
friends who cannot understand my Rusyn relatives when they speak) and it
sure is not Polish, therefore, it is a language due to the fact that it
exists. Now, what authors and their particular political ideas wish to
state are there own opinions, not necessarily the truth to the issue. As
you are aware much bally-who has been given down through the centuries on
what and who Rusyns are, etc., it is no wonder that different authors give
different opinions, all minorities suffer the same fate and it is not
confined to those of Ruthenian heritage, if I read my history correctly the
Slovaks were just as persecuted under the Hungarians during the times of the
Austro-Hungarian Empire and I am sure if we read their commentaries they
were not favorable towards them either.
>>
heh-heh! And Joy, I want some Ruthenian cookies for my birthday -- or should
that be nut-roll?? I may have mentioned in the past that we were married by
Msgr John Yurcisin, who also liked to beat me around the head and shoulders
from time to time. Given what you are saying, just what is the "Lingua
Ruthenorum" refered to in in 12th century? That one was spoken in the Pripyet
Marshes and Minsk.
Seriously though, I know better from last time to raise the issue too
fervently, the Rusynska druzina im. Duchnovycha will come take my first born.
Vova - the ultimate minority
Baltic German married to a Slovak-Rusyn-Scots-Irish with a daughter who is
being raised 100% Russian Orthodox. :-))
Joy Kovalycsik
Best Regards,
Joy K
-----Original Message-----
From: Antiq...@aol.com <Antiq...@aol.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <slovak...@fris.sk>
Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: SLOVAK/SLOVENIAN.... SLAVIC/SLAVISH
jfl
Tim Cuprisin wrote in message <35A6AE...@execpc.com>...
>jackie stringham wrote:
>>
>> Can someone please explain the difference between slovenian and slovak
>> languages. Also clarification of the terms slavic and slavish would be
>> helpful.
>
>SLOVAK is part of the Western Slavic language group, most closely
>related to Czech and Polish
>
>SLOVENIAN is part of the South Slavic language group, more closely
>related to Serbian and Croatian.
Following this thread has been quite an education. Since you all seem to
be very knowledgable about this, perhaps someone could help me identify my
nationality, i.e., what in the world kind of name is FLORKO ?
What I know is this:
My great-grandfather considered himself Polish; he was born in Przemsyl in
1881.
Another person with this name that I contacted said that he is Ukranian;
his grandfather was born in Jaravlov(sp?) in 1885.
Another person with this name that I contacted said that he was Ruthenian;
no details on place of origin from him.
A Jean Florko in France tells me that his father came from
Lazski-Goscinowz, Ukraine in 1928.
And lastly, one Florko I spoke with just came back from Nizny Hrabovec,
Vranov,Slovakia and he tells me that there are several Florko's there and
that the name is definitely Slovakian.
*All* of these places are within a stone's throw of one another (about 20
miles). And there seems to be a world-wide distribution of people with this
name of less than one hundred!
Please help! Are we Carpatho-Rusyn? Are we all confused about our own
ethnic identity? The more people I ask, the more nationalties I hear.
Thanks in advance for any insights.
John
Florko
John Matsko
Like that ad says "Be all that you can be". What difference does it make.
The governments in this area have changed many times as the result of wars
and treaties. Pick the one you feel comfortable with after doing your
research and go with it. You can always change it later and be technically
correct by selecting an appropriate time frame or history text. I picked
Rusnak (Rusyn) because my parents told me that that was what their ethnic
origin was and they were born there. I'm not at all sure that that's what
they and their kinsman referred to themselves as in turn of the century
Austria Hungary. If you could determine their religion and the language
they spoke or wrote (if they were literate), you might be able to zero in
on their ethnicity. I don t want to pun or pan Slavics, but they all look
the same to me. ;-)
John
em...@earthlink.net
>
> Thanks in advance for any insights.
> John
> Florko
>
>
--
E. M. Scott
I could have written your message. The name I am trying to find out about is
Tomayko. I get the same answers you get. It is confusing. From my
experience, the best bet is to try to stay with what you can document. Do
not ask for, and do not expect shortcut answers. There really are not any.
But there are documents and hard evidence for you to dig out. If you are
serious and really interested, stick with grinding out hard evidence: census
records, marriage licenses, birth and death certificates, social security
death index and other records, etc..
Luck
Ed Scott
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
spos...@hotmail.com
Jim...@aol.com
I'm a novice to this group and genealogy basically, but I have to agree most
individuals on this path are very knowledgable and I just enjoy reading the
messages even if I get no information.
To try to answer your question on the name, please don't go by this alone as I
am
just speaking from what I've found out - from personal experience.
My great=grandparents come from Dobra. During the Austria-Hungary, Russian,
and anyone else who "invaded", moved the boundaries, etc. cause alot of this
confusion. On my grandmother's side (who came fro Okruhle) she gave my mother
alot of information for marriage forms, etc. On her marriage license (my
mohters) she had my grandfather was Polish, my grandmother was Hungarian. On
another license she had put they were both from Austria! After talking with
my aunts and other relatives and getting information from Slovakia (via birth
certificates, marriage licenses, etc., they were definitely Slovaks.
This is confusing and may be what's happening to you. I don't know where the
town is you mentioned, as I don't have a good map yet, but if it's anywhere
near these areas, you will probably have to go digging. However, most people
I've found that were in the same boat look at the map, see if they are
CURRENTLY located (the town) in Slovakia, that they "ususally" end up being
from there and being Slovak. But remember mixed marriages (mixed means,
Russian, Slovak, Hungarian, Austrian, etc.) may mean one is from Slovak and
the other parent could be from any of the surrounding countries! Yes, it's
confusing and I'm sure I haven't explained it very well, but in most cases
you'll have to go back, get certificates, licenses, etc. to trail your family.
I've had alot of luck with individuals that are on this net or others who
helped me immensely so you'll have to go looking and with other peoples help,
you'll find what your looking for.
Hope this hasn't confused you too much. I must admit I'm "new" and not as
knowledgable as others, just passing along to you the mess I ran into trying
to figure out nationalities and places.
Good luck and I'm sure the "pros" can help you also!
Jim
David Kuchta
Jim, you said it great. Without DNA testing, no one knows for sure. But one
thing you have in common with many of the countries you mentioned is that
they were Slav originated. Hungarians aren't supposedly Slavs, but just
like one of the recent postings, it said there might be tie-in with
Hungarians being part of an earlier Slav tribe.
But before somebody goes crazy, this was only one authors thoughts. We
Slovak-worlders all know that there has been research saying that
Hungarians are not Slavs in any way, shape or form.
I would really have to wonder how pure Hungarian blood is to say that a DNA
test wouldn't show some parts being the same as Slav DNA, or vice-a versa.
With Hungarians occupying parts of Slovakia for over a thousand years, it
sure makes me wonder how Slovak blood could still be the original blood
line of when the original Slav tribes came through the mountain passes way
back in the 5th century.
Just a thought!
Dave