"Join the localizer"
Richard Green
> "Turn left, heading 270; join the localizer"
>
> This phraseology is generally used for arrival sequencing (string of
> pearls? <G>) when an aircraft is too far out to be cleared for the ILS
> approach.
Good point for some people only thing I would add is....
STAY on the last assigned altitude unless you get a 'TILL ESTABLISHED clear
Yada yada '
If in doubt or you think you should be descending on the glide - just
report established.... maybe the controller got busy with some yahoo
busting the Class B...
Its those friendly reminders that keep us all in check from time to time.
--
Richard Green
VATUSA4
Events and VA Director
Casey Webster
> Just a friendly reminder that when ATC clears you to 'join the localizer,'
> it is not a clearance to execute an ILS approach. Joining the localizer
> simply means to fly inbound ON the localizer of the arrival runway while
> maintaining the last altitude you've been cleared to.
> "Turn left, heading 270; join the localizer"
>
> This phraseology is generally used for arrival sequencing (string of pearls?
> <G>) when an aircraft is too far out to be cleared for the ILS approach.
>
>
> C-3
> CLE ARTCC
>
>
yup, and the phaseology isnt limited to IFR aircraft. I had to look
over at my instructor one day when the controller dropped that one on me
:)
JCWhite
kingairguy
i guess in some instances it would be beneficial to "join the localizer" but
the purpose of joining the localizer is to execute the ILS (unless there
is not glideslope). if you are far out on the localizer chances are you are
not going to intercept the localizer until you get closer anyway. in canada
you very very rarely hear "join the localizer". most of the time the controller
gives you a heading to intercept the localizer and clears you for the ILS
approach before you even get to the localizer.lets say you are cleared to
"join the localizer" at 3000 feet. ok now you are on the localizer and the
controller fogets to give you the ILS clearance. all of a sudden you pass
over top the glideslope and when the controller gives you the ILS clearance
now you have to dive for the glideslope. not a safe practice. in my opinion
it is better to give the clearance for the ILS just before the localizer
is intercepted
Craig Moulton
use vertical separation, in which case telling the aircraft to "Join the
Localizer" will normally ensure that Vertical Sep is maintained. Most
localizer freq's have a range that is in excess of 50 miles, though it's not
modeled well in FS. The Civet4 at LAX for example is basically the
localizer all the way out to Civet and beyond, though in FS it's not
normally recieved before FUELR.
And if the airport is VFR, it really isn't all that difficult for pilot that
knows what he is doing to report the aircraft he is following or event the
airport in sight in which case he can forget about the glide slope and land
visually with no problem at all. I've run into this exact situation a few
days ago as I ended up #2 behind a similar Heavy and only 3 miles in trail
and closing. I was asked to "Join the Localizer. Report the traffic in
sight." Once I had the traffic, after clearing some low lying Scud, I was
cleared for the visual following the traffic. He vacated the rwy as I
crossed the IM. No problem.
-CM
"kingairguy" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3db65b91$1...@news.simflight.com...
David Liu
Well, then the pilot should have reminded the controller about this
situation. Something like:
"ABC123 is over the outer marker and crossing the glideslope, request
descent."
If the controller doesn't issue the descent until it is very late, only dive
if you're sure you can make it. Otherwise, just declare a missed approach.
Regards,
David Liu
kingairguy
in real life you do not take a bus or boeing and "dive" for the glideslope.
not advisable. and your way of reminding the controller? well if you get
the ILS clearance right away this avoids having to remind him. much easier
way. and the signal coverage of a localizer is deemed to be "reliable" 35
degrees of the centreline for a distance of 10 miles and after 10 miles it
is reliable at 10 degrees for an additional 8 miles for a total of 18 miles.
so i doubt a controller will give ypu a clearance to ride the localizer in
from 50 miles out knowing the signal isn't considered to be reliable.
Greg Phelan
Approach Course, and instructed to track the localizer inbound. The reason
for this is if you are the second aircraft, you cannot be cleared for the
approach until the preceeding aircraft is ESTABLISHED on the final approach
course. I know, in several of my runs in the simulator, I would have one
guy getting a vector right on 8 miles from the runway, and one 11-12; the
first would get approach clearance, the second told to fly the loc. inbound.
If you clear the preceeding aircraft for the approach before the first is
cleared, bam, technical separation loss, and there go half of the marks we
can lose in planning, or a quarter of the total marks we can lose for the
run before a fail. I can find out the exact rationalle for this when our
instructors come back on Tuesday.
Also, I believe that the reason for doing so due range is because of
accuracy at long distances, because of the way that the signal spreads, the
localizer signal might read centreline when you are a mile off it (just a
guess, our theory is rather limited).
GP
"kingairguy" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3db65b91$1...@news.simflight.com...
>
Richard Critz
miles and what Craig described happens EVERY DAY at LAX.
Aircraft arriving at Boston Logan from over PVD when they're landing on the
4's will be told to join the localizer and track it inbound from PVD.
Happens all the time, all over the world. No controller is going to retain
responsibility for lateral navigation (i.e. vectoring) if the localizer can
be used to have the pilot provide his own navigation. The approach
clearance just comes later.
cz
--
Richard Critz
VP/Pilot Training (VATSIM26/VATGOV14)
VATSIM Board of Governors
VATSIM Network Team
"kingairguy" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3db6c398$1...@news.simflight.com...
Nate Johns
joining the localizer for 16 40+ north of the airport, IMC or not.
The guys down there explained to me though that they can't legally clear
someone for the ILS until they get within around 30 miles, as that is the
maximum flight-checked range, even though the localizer may be perfectly
accurate out that far. Places like LAX, and I'm sure many others, have
flight-checked ranges that are quite out there. Obviously the CIVET4 needs
all 52 miles of the 25L LOC at LAX, if only to define CIVET :) I'm sure it's
flight-checked even farther out, maybe 60+ miles!
Whether this also applies to the localizers at the GA releiver, I dont know.
Around here, the scope depicts 10 miles for the most part... a couple are a
little longer, APA with an 11.5 mile centerline depiction, 14 at Buckley
AFB. I'm not sure if that means flight-checked distance, or if it's just to
keep the scope uncluttered. I'll have to ask, meanwhile, maybe someone else
has an idea about it.
Anyway, the way I understood it, as long as an aircraft is recieving the
localizer, they can be told to join, but unless the aircraft is within
flight checked limits, it cant be used for primary navigation, and an
approach clearance that relies on that navaid can't be issued.
~Nate
"Richard Critz" <rcr...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:3db6...@news.simflight.com...
A Guy Called Tyketto
Not always. What if visual approaches are in use, and you have
a major stream of traffic converging for final?
This is the case at KLAS, where you have traffic converging on
the 25L approach from the southeast (MIROK1, LYNSY1), the Northeast
(KSINO1, LUXOR1), southwest (SKEBR1, CLARR1), and west (TRAGR1,
FUZZY5). My case in point is really with the LUXOR1 and KSINO1
arrivals, where you may be told to turn left for vectors to follow
traffic, then right again to join the localiser. Something like:
ROK19: Vegas Approach, ROK19 with you out of 12 for 8 on the KSINO
arrival.
APP: ROK19, Vegas Approach, turn left heading 190, vectors to follow
traffic, maintain 8000.
ROK19: 190, maintain 8, ROK19.
APP: SWA1205, after DUSJO, cleared visual approach runway 25L. (See:
LYNSY1 STAR)
SWA1205: cleared for the visual 25L, SWA1205.
APP: ROK19, turn left heading 220, join the runway 25L localiser, d/m
7000. traffic to follow is at your 10 o'clock, 4 miles, 6500 and
descending, B737.
ROK19: 220 for the LOC, down to 7, we have the traffic, ROK19.
APP: ROK19, follow that traffic, cleared visual approach runway 25L.
ROK19: Cleared visual 25L behind the 737, ROK19.
No ILS used at all. Sometimes, you are asked to join the
localiser, to just do that. be aligned up with the runway until you
report the field in sight, to be cleared for the visual approach.
Living by the ILS makes one a bit too dependent. What would you do if
there weren't an ILS, but only a LOC, or just a VOR? Good answer, would
be to see the above. ;)
BL.
--
Brad Littlejohn | Email: tyk...@wizard.com
Unix Systems Administrator, | tyk...@ozemail.com.au
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF
Michael Finch
just clear for the ILS?
Also, can't clear for visual unless have either airport in sight, or the
traffic that he's supposed to follow in sight.
"A Guy Called Tyketto" <tyk...@wizard.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:3db9...@news.simflight.com...
Casey Webster
> Curious, why clear for the visual approach if on the localizer. Why not
> just clear for the ILS?
>
> Also, can't clear for visual unless have either airport in sight, or the
> traffic that he's supposed to follow in sight.
>
>
because the weather is good enough for a visual :) Flying out of KAUS,
when the weather is nice (read: good enough for me to be in the air on
my solo endorsement) all the commercial traffic opts for visual
approaches, about the only time i've heard someone ask for the ILS is
for shooting practice approaches for training/currency.
Nate Johns
be too high to issue an ILS clearance (capturing the GS from above is a nono
for both ATC and pilots).
At airports with parallel approaches, if one guy is running an ILS, while
the rest are shooting visuals, there's an increase in the separation
requirements around the guy shooting the ILS. Instead of the pilots getting
follow intructions (which imply maintain visual separation), now ATC must
keep people separated by 3 and 1000. As such, it might disrupt the smooth
flow of inbound traffic on the visuals while ATC adjusts to maintain extra
separation. Either that, or ATC could make all the "maintain visual
separation" calls, then clear the guy for the ILS, but that's a lot of time
of frequency. A quick "join the localizer" then a visual approach clearance
can save a small headache.
Also at airports with parallel approaches, often times, aircraft are told to
join the loc if the vis isn't unlimited, but they expect people to see the
airport sufficiently far out so they dont need to use the ILS. Here, planes
will be told to join the loc, and issued whatever traffic is necessary for
the parallel runway, then they just track inbound until they call the
airport in sight, then they run visual. Parallel ILSs require 2 or more
controllers to run the final monitor position (and possibly others), so,
parallel visuals saves a little on control room staffing as well.
I'm sure there are other reasons, I cant think of any right now though. Your
mileage, of course, may vary between facilities, busyness, etc.
Nate Johns
VATSIM VA Liason
vapar...@mail.vatsim.net
"Michael Finch" <MLF_SUP Addr> wrote in message
news:3db9...@news.simflight.com...
A Guy Called Tyketto
> Curious, why clear for the visual approach if on the localizer. Why not
> just clear for the ILS?
In the case of KLAS, you're also dealing with people below you
that may be on the left downwind for the 19s, which would convergse on
the ILS for 25L/R. If there's no stream for the 19s, you could,
otherwise you'd be taking them off the ILS once you've cleared them for
it, which would not be a Good Thing[tm]. Also, since this lines him up
with the runway, He may just have to follow traffic, and not have to
worry about relying on his instruments to get him down. Weather at
KLAS are RARELY IFR.
Also, the Localiser is just that. the localiser to line them up
with the runway. You'd still have to worry about separation with other
traffic converging for the runway. It's far easier to handle converging
traffic and their separation with others visually than instrumentally
(from an ATC perspective). You tell them the speed they can have
(ROK19, maintain 170kts until 7 DME, Tower's 119.9), the pilot will
keep the separation needed from there.
Also, with the exception of KLAX, which has heavy traffic streams
at least 50nm out, why use an ILS when you have the field in sight at
least 15 - 20DME out? IMHO, I'd only use the ILS only if a) the weather
is IFR, and b) if it is available with the weather from a).
> Also, can't clear for visual unless have either airport in sight, or the
> traffic that he's supposed to follow in sight.
Which ROK19 didn't get cleared for the visual, until he had SWA
in sight. I should have added more about SWA in there, and them already
having the field. But since the LYNSY1 is a profiled descent, the STAR
takes them to the IAF for 25L.
Think about it also this way. If you're on the LOC, even the
Backcourse LOC, the field will always be at your 12 o'clock. you won't
have to search around you for it.
A Guy Called Tyketto
> Michael Finch wrote:
>> Curious, why clear for the visual approach if on the localizer. Why not
>> just clear for the ILS?
>>
>> Also, can't clear for visual unless have either airport in sight, or the
>> traffic that he's supposed to follow in sight.
>>
>>
>
> because the weather is good enough for a visual :) Flying out of KAUS,
> when the weather is nice (read: good enough for me to be in the air on
> my solo endorsement) all the commercial traffic opts for visual
> approaches, about the only time i've heard someone ask for the ILS is
> for shooting practice approaches for training/currency.
>
There's also this.. the ILS would also be used, even if the
weather is good enough for visuals, if the pilot can't see the airport.
Think about any airport that has runways 24 - 28, especially in the
afternoon. You turn to intercept final, and you're looking DIRECTLY
into the sun. Try looking for traffic to follow or the field, when you
have the sun right at you, plus the glare of the runways/streets
bouncing up to you from the surface. That would be the time for ILS.