Racist And Political Behaviours On Vatsim
Ertaç Paprat
Hello All;
I was banned from VATSIM Network by Babis Peribolas(810273) because of my
flight plan..
(LCEN-LTBJ)
There is no any written restriction about LCEN on VATSIM.But he claimed "LCEN
is not recognized by ICAO" i said "I can show documents about LCEN airport
it is already recognized by ICAO" unfortunately he killed me after my answer
over TOMBI isec in LTBB FIR..He threatened me if i fly again he will suspend
me for few months.This is arbitrary reason and unacceptable behaviour against
me.I need help about this topic from VATSIM Administration.
Reason:
"Event occured in LCCC at 27 October 2003. Reason --
COnnected and departed from LCEN (airport not recognized by ICAO) and did
not respected to SUPERVISOR warnings."
LCEN airport is at CYPRUS (LCEN-ERCAN N35° 09' 35'' E033° 29' 18'' (402ft)
)
https://www.notams.jcs.mil/icao/R52C0.html
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/anb/met/sadis/SADIS7/appendixE.pdf
http://www.icao.int/anb/SADISOPSG/meetings/sadis7/wp/wp17-app.pdf
http://trvacc.org/web/airspace/airportdetail.asp?ICAO=LCEN
http://trvacc.org/web/airspace/routelist.asp?ARR=LTBJ
Ertaç Paprat VATSIM pid 842662
Christopher Trott
the US so I'm not well versed in European situations. Political maybe since
the ICAO isn't totally a non-biased and non-partisan orginization, but at
the same time, while I don't understand the reasoning behind this suspension
based on what was said here, I also feel that two things have been done
wrong on the part of you Mr. Paprat.
1) You posted a PRIVATE matter on a public forum without first attempting to
contact VATSIM's VP of Conflict Resolution (George Marinakis) via e-mail
first over the situation.
2) You made accustations that inflame the situation instead of keep in
objective. You claim you were banned, yet you put in your own e-mail that
in fact you were merely suspended for 24 hours, which is the most time any
supervisor can remove you from the system without approval from a BoG member
or Region Director. Also, you immediately claim this to be a Racist and
Political action, yet from the little information given, there is no true
proof of this.
Sorry dude, but I'm afraid that VATSIM's not going to be too sympathetic to
your case now because you chose to go about this situation in such a way
instead of following the normal lines of communication to get this resolved.
"Ertaç Paprat" <epa...@mynet.com> wrote in message
news:3f9dd8f5$1...@news.simflight.com...
Jeff Wang
So what you saying is vatsim supervisor banned you because you flew from
some airport to other? What was wrong? Did you use wrong FL or didn't contact
their ATC's or something? His remarks sound very ridiculous to me. Is there
any notam that warns pilots to not file plans for LCEN Airport?
Jeff
Marcus D. Wood
"Ertaç Paprat" <epa...@mynet.com> wrote in message news:3f9dd8f5$1...@news.simflight.com...
Ertaç Paprat
Dear Mr.Trott
I tried many ways about this situation.But I am so sorry to say that i couldn't
get any result.Many pilots were banned because of this situation by Hellenic
SUP's.I used official flight plan of Turkish Airlines between LCEN-LTBJ.This
is "Racism" because HvACC doesn't want to land any Turkish Aircraft to LCEN,This
is Political because it is single-sided.Finally i didn't send any private
correspondence to public forum.It was only automated notice from VATSIM.
Best Regards
Ertaç Paprat
Ertaç Paprat
Dear Mr.Wang
I used official Turkish Airlines Flight Plan for this flight.I asked for
NOTAM,restriction by VATSIM or any other rules.But he said only "You Know
The Reason" then He killed me from server .I changed my flight plan over
LTAI(Antalya Int. Airport/Turkey)although he banned me.When i was departing
from LCEN there was no ATC and He was already serving as LGRP_V_APP that
is to say i was not his control zone.
Best Regards
Ertaç Paprat
Christopher Trott
differently on any VATSIM or the HvACC website that this is the official
stance of VATSIM and its representatives, then it is techncially a private
matter. Unless you e-mailed George and a week later haven't gotten a reply,
then there is no reason for you to put this up here so quickly. Also, the
"automated" message you received was not strictly automated. It is an
e-mail that informs you that you've been suspended (please stop using the
word banned, it's incorrect) for 24 hours and why the supervisor suspended
you based on what he put in his suspension report to VATSIM. That doesn't
make it a public e-mail. The only persons who received that e-mail are you,
the Supervisor, and *maybe* the region director.
Also, you say "many pilots." How many do you mean? 10 or 100? (no
maliciousness intended, just curious).
Also, just to be sure, is it ONLY Turkish Airlines flights that are being
removed or is it *ANY* flight with that flightplan? I'm asking this becuase
that makes a huge difference between whether it's "racist" or just
"discriminatory". There's a world of difference between those two terms.
Also, just because it's single-sided doesn't make it political. Something
is political because of the underlying reasons for the situation.
I'd love to see this situation resolved as a long time member and supporter
of VATSIM and I'm just trying to understand what's going on. One other
thing, you didn't indicate whether you've attempted to contact the VP of
Conflict Resolutions (George M.) over the issue or tried the VATSIM BoG for
a ruling on the situation. Have you? If so, what was the response?
Primary behind this question is that you indicated that you'd tried many
ways about the situation, but you didn't indicate how high up the Chain of
Command you went with it. I say this because I've never seen a single
situation come before George that he didn't get taken care of in a timely
manner.
BTW, the e-mail for George is - g...@vatsim.net
Also, this may be something you want to bring up or CC the email you send
George with the VP of Regions, Roland Collins (rol...@vatsim.net) and the VP
of Supervisors, Neal Truitt (ne...@vatsim.net) since this is an issue with
both a Region and the Supervisors in that region.
Just putting this up on the forums won't necessarily get anything done
because most of those who visit this board on a regular basis can't do much
more than refuse to transit the HvACC until the situation is resolved. For
this situation to be addressed, formal communications need to be exchanged
with the parties involved and e-mail is the way you do that, especially
since you can keep a better record of an e-mail and what was said by one
side than any other form of communication short of writing letters.
-Christopher Trott, CEO
Green Mountain Airlines
http://www.flygma.com/
"Revolutionary Attitude"
"Ertaç Paprat" <epa...@mynet.com> wrote in message
news:3f9de406$1...@news.simflight.com...
Jeff Wang
Christopher maybe you should just relax a bit.
I can understand you but also his concerns about this situation.
Everybody knows Vatsim is most professional online network in the world
but that doesn't mean that Vatsim works like most professional company or
other networks. I heard read and witnessed many conflicts since beginning
and this is my personal opinion "I think vatsim conflict resolution system
and methods is not working well" I'm saying all this because some thinks
I witnessed and the way that thinks ended or solved.
peoples thinks supervisors is always right. But wait. Wrong! Everybody can
make mistakes. Even some mistakes under their political influence.
Also he can bring this situation anywhere he wants. Freedom of speech.
We can't delete his post because of he post here instead of somewhere else
As you said. First place to dispute any problem should be resolution manager
but if he cant get any results public help can be handy. Guys don't forget
we are doing our hobby here. Peace
Jeff
Kyle
And I thought Chris' remarks to be incredibly measured, direct, and unambiguous.
Nice Job Chris.
He's also right; there is a documented procedure for these resolutions and
I don't think SUP's get spanked because of anything that is written in these
forums, as it should be. There is a well documented procedure for conflict
resolutions and very capable people who staff those positions. VATSIM is
apolitical and works hard to stay that way. Any suggestion otherwise is
absurd and unsupported by the data.
These processes are also confidential, to protect both the innocent and the
guilty, because it's no one else's dang business except those charged with
the responsibility of carrying out the duties outlined in those same documents
mentioned above. Don't expect to see SUP's marched out of office in any
public display. Also remember that many mistakes are met with retraining,
not firing someone, so again unlikely you will get to witness much of this
process to say if it works well or not well.
As to VATSIM's professionalism, recall please they are 100% Volunteers, giving
of their time, taken away from their other interests and families. This
means that we pilots may not always be the first item on their list of things
to do after a long day at work and we need to give them time to work on our
problems. Communicate, then escalate (appeal), following the guidelines,
and your chances of getting a real result are increased dramatically. Don't
expect the VATSIM users to rise up in revolt over stuff like this.
Take Chris' advice, don't make this any worse than is is now, and use the
process. It's not too late (I hope). If that route is messed up, get your
VA involved with fixing it. And I hope you get this worked out so you can
quickly resume one of the coolest hobbys anywhere.
Kyle
Jim Johnson
explain to me why flying from LCEN would cause a problem. I realize I'm
only getting one side of the story here, but I just don't understand this.
Besides, why would it matter if you departed from an airport not recognized
by ICAO? People do that all the time if they own their own private grass
landing area. I just don't get it...
Someone please clarify.
Jim
"Ertaç Paprat" <epa...@mynet.com> wrote in message
news:3f9dd8f5$1...@news.simflight.com...
>
Ertaç Paprat
Dear Mr.Trott
First Thank you very much for your advices.In this situation i was in LCCC
Zone.I departed from LCEN and There was no ATC.My flight plan was same with
TRvACC flight plan(http://trvacc.org/web/airspace/routelist.asp?ARR=LTBJ
check LCEN-LTBJ) You asked "Also, just to be sure, is it ONLY Turkish Airlines
flights that are being
>removed or is it *ANY* flight with that flightplan? " This is about only
Turkish Airlines Flights or any other Turkish Flights like Ephesus,KTHY etc.
etc. Those are Turkish virtual airlines.And Whenever we want fly to LCEN
as Turkish Airlines we always encounter same things.What can we do ? This
problem was not first .. I think this won't be last.My friends applied to
VATSIM Adm. few times last 2 years.But They always say "Apply to your Divisions"
however conflict wasn't resolved.(Reminder:CVARTCC's website has hostile
matters about Turkey in 2002 and They were banned from network for this reason.)Virtual
Hellenic Airlines can fly to Cyprus but Why can't we fly to cyprus after
this situation?Virtual Turkish Cyprus Airlines's main hub is at LCEN so they
can't fly on VATSIM because of HvACC,Ephesus Virtual Airlines is same also.For
this reason they had to depart from VATSIM to IVAO(There is no conflict like
this on IVAO)You asked "Also, you say "many pilots." How many do you mean?
10 or 100? (no
>maliciousness intended, just curious)." Now Can you guess How many can be?
2 Airlines departed from VATSIM.They were threatened.HvACC or CVARTCC don't
want to know existence of LCEN and They also deny.Just remember my suspend
reason "LCEN airport isn't recognized by ICAO" "LCEN" is its ICAO code how
can it be "Not Recognized"?I am asking again : Is there any restriction,prohibition,NOTAM
or written rules like "You can't fly to LCEN on VATSIM" about LCEN(Ercan
Int. Airport) on VATSIM ? I fly to LCEN many times in my real life.And I
didn't hear any prohibition for Turkish Airlines about LCEN.If anyone can
show me any prohibition about LCEN on VATSIM I will get back my words and
I will apologize everyone.This is my hobby and i want to enjoy with it...My
only wish that.
Best Regards
Ertaç Paprat
KH
If all of Chris' remarks were as tempered and straight-forward as your
second and third paragraphs, I would completely agree with you and him.
You wisely suggested that this fellow go the normal, official route of
pursuing these matters, as did Chris. I completely agree. That's all
that needed to be said.
Unfortunately, there was a tone in Chris' message that (probably
unintentionally) minimized the possibility that a racist or political or
hurtful act was actually inflicted upon this VATSIM member by another
VATSIM member.... that he was just the run-of-the-mill whiner.
As Chris said, "I'm sorry, but I don't see what is Racist about this
action. Now, I'm from the US so I'm not well versed in European
situations."
However, there ARE many regions that are sanctioned members of VATSM
that DO INDEED have may active political/racial/ethnic disputes with
OTHER sanctioned regions. We would all LOVE to believe that that would
not be an issue on VATSIM. But we don't know that it's not... and we
don't know that it is.
I am certain that if you or Chris or I were the recipients of an act
that we TRULY perceived as racist/political/ethnic persecution (as does
happen in the world) in an arena that we perceived should be truly free
of bias (VATSIM).... we, too, would be posting first thing to the NG. I
know I'd be angry as heck if I thought that happened to me.
There are things that may of us are lucky to never understand from
direct experience, but they do happen, regardless of how naive one is
about the rest of the world.
Regards,
Karl
Kyle wrote:
--
-------------------------------
To email me directly, remove my aging brain.
Tom Schroeder
Please see my private e-mail on how you can find a more direct
solution to this.
Tom Schroeder
Vice President, Operations
VATSIM Board of Governors
KH
"VATSIM is apolitical and works hard to stay that way. Any suggestion
otherwise is absurd and unsupported by the data."
I would like to agree with you, and hope it is that way. However, I was
unaware of any such data/studies.
Can you give me a reference for those data? Tell me where to find them
and how they were collected and analyzed? I'm truly fascinated to hear
how you conducted these data.
How do your data prove that NO political actions EVER happened on VATSIM
(thus making the poster's suggestion so absurd)?
Regards,
Karl
Babis Peribolas
The whole ARSC session is recorded by me just for keeping it to the safe
side:-)
I am not going to give details in public, but only to the official VATEUR
DCRM as soon as I am asked for it. That is the proper way IMHO.
I am not a Racist and this is the first suspension by me to a member after
many years in our Hobby.
Thank You!
Fly Safe:-)
Babis Peribolas
HvACC Training Director
ACCGR3/SUP
"Ertaç Paprat" <epa...@mynet.com> wrote in message
news:3f9dd8f5$1...@news.simflight.com...
>
Martin Georg
>Just remember my suspend
> reason "LCEN airport isn't recognized by ICAO" "LCEN" is its ICAO code how
> can it be "Not Recognized"?I am asking again : Is there any
restriction,prohibition,NOTAM
> or written rules like "You can't fly to LCEN on VATSIM" about LCEN(Ercan
> Int. Airport) on VATSIM
I don´t want to contribute to the underlying debate (which in fact is very
sensitive and should be handled with care and sensivity. As a german
citizen, I know very well the situation of a divided country), but I just
checked my Jeppesen navigation data for AIRAC 0310 and indeed it does not
show LCEN as a recognized ICAO code. Furthermore, it does not show ANY
airport, navaid or other facility in the norther (turkish) part of Cyprus,
besides geographical data. You may know that the international community has
never accepted the political situation of the northern part of Cyprus, and I
assume this is the reason why LCEN is not showing up. I don´t want to be
interpreted in any political way, and I dont want to comment the behaviour
of the respective Supervisor, I just want to explain why the northern part
of Cyprus is looking like a white area on official international data.
--
regards,
Martin Georg/EDDF
VACC-SAG PR & Events Coordinator
mailto:sa...@vacc-sag.org
website: http://www.vacc-sag.org
Kyprianos Biris
Your responce in this newsgroup just follows a standard pattern of behaviour
of some of our members who simply want to make some noise about something.
You did not follow the istructions contained in the automated 24hr
suspension mail you got and instead just came here in this newgroup to post.
Well your links are nice but let me provide this one as well :
http://www.jeppesen.com/download/briefbull/fra99-a.pdf
Keep in mind that the links you provided do not indicate that this is a
recognized ICAO airport.
The problem with flights in and out of LCEN in VATSIM network is not that it
is not recognized from ICAO (the typical part). This is not the reason you
really got your suspension for. This area Northern part of Cyprus, as you
very well know, is directly connected with a dispute between three
countries. I will not go into real life politics here. Just find out why
United Nations & ICAO do not recognize this status as legal.
You were kindly asked by the SUPervisor not to fly from this unrecognized
airport and he explained you why. Your attitude clearly showed that you were
intending to cause trouble by the statements you made to him and by the fact
that straight after you connected with your second ID. The SUPervisor
used his judgement and kept you away from continuing a provocative activity
in this network. Yes there is no official VATSIM NOTAM about this area of
the World as there isn't any custom one for many others like Israel, Iraq,
Afghansistan, former Yugoslavia and the list goes on ....
SUPervisors in these cases use common sence and come in contact with the
member involved.
Yes, real life flights fly to the unrecognized airport you flew from. Let me
remind you that the only IFR flights departing / arriving from/to this
airport originate from Turkish airports. There are no real world flights
with ICAO flight plan handled by Eurocontrol, or other authority, that fly
from other parts of the World - except from inland Turkey - to this airport.
All real life flights & regulating authorities though, are not connected to
one Global network like VATSIM on the Internet which, by issuing a NOTAM or
policy document about it, would take an active position "for" or "against"
the subject. So here in VATSIM we cannot always simulate real life to the
fullest because its a global network and any official policy document is
addressed towards all of its members. Now in VATSIM we practice a hobby. We
intend to maintain the "fun factor" and the good relations in this hobby and
we intend to do everything not to ruin them by real life politics. Turkish
vACC has always had an excellent relation with Hellenic vACC and the subject
of Northern part of Cyprus has never and will never ruin their relations. So
we have no official policy on that ; simply when something occurs we kindly
contact the member involved first.
You did not execute this flight to excercise your hobby in VATSIM. This is
strongly supported by the fact that straight after you suspension you came
here to start all this public discussion which contains unsupported lies.
You lied publicly about the fact that other Turkish pilots have been
suspended by Hellenic Supervisors due to this subject. Watch carefully when
you post public messages in this forum. You are liable to further
disciplinary action. Read carefully VATSIM Code of Conduct and Code of
Regulations and you will understand why.
Ertac keep in mind that supervisors are not afiliated to any place of the
World. They work for VATSIM Board of Governors and this board is the only
authority that governs their actions. They come online not to kill and
suspend people but to help members in problems. They have the right to kill
and suspend as well but this is not their primary role.
I am at your disposal for any further clarifications in private.
Regards,
--
Kyprianos Biris
kypr...@vatsim.net
VATSIM Europe Region Director
http://vatsim-eur.org
"Ertaç Paprat" <epa...@mynet.com> wrote in message
news:3f9dd8f5$1...@news.simflight.com...
>
Ertaç Paprat
Babis;
I did not record any session because I do not have to prove anything.But
If You want to publish your records you can do this wherever you want.There
is no problem for me.Unfortunately This is the for suspension for me on VATSIM,IVAO,NVAS
to a member after many years in my Hobby.
Ertaç Paprat
James Falkner
> Forgive me for being the "ignorant American" here, but will someone please
> explain to me why flying from LCEN would cause a problem. I realize I'm
> only getting one side of the story here, but I just don't understand this.
> Besides, why would it matter if you departed from an airport not recognized
> by ICAO? People do that all the time if they own their own private grass
> landing area. I just don't get it...
>
> Someone please clarify.
AFAICT There seems to be a territorial dispute somewhere
east of New York City and some vatsimmers are trying to
simulate it.
-jhf-
Ertaç Paprat
Kyprianos;
"Your responce in this newsgroup just follows a standard pattern of behaviour
of some of our members who simply want to make some noise about something."
***Yes there is a newsgroup because of people can solve their problems.You
encountered with this subject many times as V.E.R.D. What were your replies?Are
not Three years too much to solve this problem on VATSIM?
"You did not follow the istructions contained in the automated 24hr
suspension mail you got and instead just came here in this newgroup to post."
***Which instructions?My flight plan was appropriate with VATSIM rules.And
this suspension is arbitrary.You still do not show any VATSIM prohibition
about LCEN or LCGK.So what is the reason ? ICAO Recognition? I will mention
this subject later.
"Well your links are nice but let me provide this one as well :
http://www.jeppesen.com/download/briefbull/fra99-a.pdf
Keep in mind that the links you provided do not indicate that this is a
recognized ICAO airport."
***12.03.1999 Jeppesen Briefing Bulletin.Is this a new one?Do not worry I
do have it too.I repeated it many times "LCEN is its ICAO code" and this
document says ONLY Ercan Air Traffic Control Zone NOT recognized by ICAO
in 1999.NOT LCEN AIRPORT.Please check for latest NOTAM about LCEN or LCGK
https://www.notams.jcs.mil
"The problem with flights in and out of LCEN in VATSIM network is not that
it
is not recognized from ICAO (the typical part). This is not the reason you
really got your suspension for. This area Northern part of Cyprus, as you
very well know, is directly connected with a dispute between three
countries. I will not go into real life politics here. Just find out why
United Nations & ICAO do not recognize this status as legal."
***If my flight is not reason Why did Dear Supervisor killed me from server?
I wonder if there was prejudice about my flight?I won't go into real life
politics here too.This is aviation newsgroup but i can discuss everyone about
this subject at another platform.Just check New York Represantative Of The
Turkish Republic Of Northern Cyprus Resat Caglar's letter to Kofi Annan about
TRNC Airspace this letter published by United Nations.
"You were kindly asked by the SUPervisor not to fly from this unrecognized
airport and he explained you why. Your attitude clearly showed that you were
intending to cause trouble by the statements you made to him and by the fact"
***Explanation?I asked "Why?" he said only "You know the reason" as you know...Please
check session records again.What were my attitude?Political slogan or provacative
action?It was only a flight between LCEN-LTBJ it was civilian aircraft (Dassault
Falcon 50) and my callsign was TC-EPT(Turkey Registration)This is your accusation
and You have to prove that!!!
"that straight after you connected with your second ID. The SUPervisor
used his judgement and kept you away from continuing a provocative activity
in this network. Yes there is no official VATSIM NOTAM about this area of
the World as there isn't any custom one for many others like Israel, Iraq,
Afghansistan, former Yugoslavia and the list goes on ....
SUPervisors in these cases use common sence and come in contact with the
member involved."
***I was flying over LTAI with my second ID as you know.And My flight plan
was between LTAI-LTBJ(Both Turkish Airpots) and i was in LTBB FIR of Turkey.No
reason but he banned me again.What is provocative activity with my first
and second flight?I did provocate who?Israil,Iraq,Afghanistan,Yugoslavia
have their wars . Is there war in Cyprus please explain?Also as you know
many airlines fly in or out from Israil,Yugoslavia or The Others.I don't
know anyone banned from VATSIM because of their Israil,Yugoslavia flights.
"Yes, real life flights fly to the unrecognized airport you flew from. Let
me
remind you that the only IFR flights departing / arriving from/to this
airport originate from Turkish airports. There are no real world flights
with ICAO flight plan handled by Eurocontrol, or other authority, that fly
from other parts of the World - except from inland Turkey - to this airport."
***I know very well real life flights so i do not need any reminder.Check
KTHY Flight Destinations KTHY=Cyprus Turkish Airlines http://www.kthy.net/kthyen/destinations.html
"All real life flights & regulating authorities though, are not connected
to
one Global network like VATSIM on the Internet which, by issuing a NOTAM
or
policy document about it, would take an active position "for" or "against"
the subject. So here in VATSIM we cannot always simulate real life to the
fullest because its a global network and any official policy document is
addressed towards all of its members. Now in VATSIM we practice a hobby."
***Are you confused?You said You can not always simulate real life but you
can banned anyone you want with real life rules?(ICAO Recognation is not
my claim and it is not true as you know)
" We intend to maintain the "fun factor" and the good relations in this hobby
and we intend to do everything not to ruin them by real life politics. Turkish
vACC has always had an excellent relation with Hellenic vACC and the subject
of Northern part of Cyprus has never and will never ruin their relations.
So we have no official policy on that ; simply when something occurs we kindly
contact the member involved first."
***My wishes are same with you.But your acts are not like your words.
"You did not execute this flight to excercise your hobby in VATSIM. This
is
strongly supported by the fact that straight after you suspension you came
here to start all this public discussion which contains unsupported lies."
***Again There are accusation and insults...Those words do not deserve any
answer.I am talking about situations but you chose me as a individual target.
"You lied publicly about the fact that other Turkish pilots have been
suspended by Hellenic Supervisors due to this subject. Watch carefully when
you post public messages in this forum. You are liable to further
disciplinary action. Read carefully VATSIM Code of Conduct and Code of
Regulations and you will understand why."
***There are another accusations.If i lie How can explain Ephesus Flights?
Or Why Virtual Cyprus Turkish Airlines and Ephesus Airlines both can not
fly on VATSIM network?
"Ertac keep in mind that supervisors are not afiliated to any place of the
World. They work for VATSIM Board of Governors and this board is the only
authority that governs their actions. They come online not to kill and
suspend people but to help members in problems. They have the right to kill
and suspend as well but this is not their primary role."
***Kyprianos keep in mind that there are supervisors for regularity not for
creating virtual problems!
"I am at your disposal for any further clarifications in private."
***After those accusations and insults?
Ertaç Paprat
JB
If VATSIM is an apolitical organisation, then surely flying from
any airport to another airport should not be a matter for suspension.
For if you say that there is no NOTAM banning flights from LCEN and
in the same breath state that this is a sensitive area, then YOU ARE MAKING
A POLITICAL STATEMENT.
Either real life politics have no bearing on VATSIM (therefore no suspension)
or someone arbitrarily decides what you can or cannot do.
If the organisation is apolitical then all members should respect this fact
including supervisors and not take offence at anything to do with flying
from A to B.
Seems to me that some people in VATSIM want to have their cake and eat it
and if this were a real life court the case would have been dismissed.
I can understand the member's rage, for he feels he has been banned
for doing something which VATSIM has not officially prohibited, and thus
the suspension rightly gives the impression of prejudice.
JB
"If liberty means anything, it means having the right to tell other
people things they don't want to hear." - George Orwell
Ertaç Paprat
Mr.Opray
I am completely agree with you..
Ertaç Paprat
"Rob" <tric...@optusnet.spamless> wrote:
>Is Kyprianos being Greek a conflict of interest in this case?
>Might need a third party who isnt Greek or Turkish to work this one out!!!!
>
>Regards
>
>Rob Opray
>
>
Rob
G.D.
Dear Ertaç,
I wish you the very best of luck in this case.
Sadly once again VATSIM-Europe is in focus of yet another "conflict". No
surprise either that the much beloved European Region Director, Mr. Kyprianos
Biris, is struggling to convince everybody that you in fact was the one that
made an error. VATSIM-Europe is NOT capable of making any mistakes, and everybody
is always treated respectfully and fairly, no matter what anybody says or
feels ! The arrogance that some might read in Mr. Biris' reply is of course
not existing, and would only be a matter of misunderstanding Mr. Biris' extremely
good intentions and his veeeery professional attitude towards other people
on this network.
[sarcasm-mode off]
The Turkish/Greek dispute over Cypres is handled professionel in real life
- at least by the aviation industri - but to expect the same from VATSIM
which apart from Americans is dominated by Greeks, would be naive. Probably
only pure coincidence that VATSIM haven't had a "conflict" about the area
until now - at least one that's publicly known.
You've been adviced to deal with this through the conflict-resolution boards
and people of various kinds, and in particular to contact Vice President
of Conflict Resolution, Mr. George Marinakis. I'm sure that you'll know,
but others might not be aware that he as well as Mr. Kyprianos Biris is also
Greek, sooooo !! Anyway, once again the best of luck to you, and to VATSIM,
in dealing with this issue.
Not to de-motivate you any further than necessary, but perhaps you would
find it useful to read some of the stuff on this link that was published
here on this forum earlier this year. If nothing else it gives a very good
idea of what to expect from these people you've been advised to contact :
http://vacc-dk.cafezaki.com/History/Suspension.htm
With sympathy
G.D.
Matt Johnson
> Dear Ertaç,
>
> I wish you the very best of luck in this case.
Maybe you should have left it there.
I don't take any notice of people who are incapable of providing a real
full name and email address.
Marv
Looks like IVAO is back. No politics in Vatsim, LOL. Just read your own
post.
Marv
"Kyprianos Biris" <kypr...@vatsim.net> wrote in message
news:3f9e...@news.simflight.com...
Christopher Trott
Marinakas and the Region Chief first, just as I suggested. I KNOW I'd do
that, becuase I have had situations (and was almost suspended once) while
not totally similar to this, it did have the same kind of underlying issues
with a Supervisor's perception of his responsibilities and the stance of
VATSIM on certain issues. I went to George and the Region Chief, and guess
what, it was handled professionally and quitely in all cases, and I think
everyone came out satisfied with the result. I suggest that EVERYONE do the
same.
Also, I was trying to minimize the possibility of racism because of one
reason - Conflict Resolution. Part of Conflict resolution is parsing down do
the facts from the emotions. His e-mail, from the start did not provide
enough information to warrant his labelling of "Racist" actions. I'm still
not totally convinced that Race is even a major consideration in this,
although I'm sure now that there may be some of it occuring in this
situation. Your first job in Conflict Resolution (something that both
George and I have experience and training in) is to calm everyone down and
get the facts and not the perceived wrongdoings. I've gotten a lot of facts
from Ertac and I applaud him for approaching this calmly and not naming
names and using foul language, which most people tend to do in this
situation if they're "just the run-of-the-mill whiner."
"KH" <kMYha...@bioAGINGmed.BRAINmed.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:3f9e...@news.simflight.com...
Sam
I feel your pain, as i have been discriminated against by VS UK admins.
the only explanation i can give is that im from Northern Ireland, a part
of the UK which they dont want to recognise.
Sorry to be dimm about this by your probebly not going to have much luck,
and just have to keep your head high and take what ever suspension you get,
Just like i had to !
mr gray
I tried to follow some of this and I add that vatsim requires point to point
flite plans - np so far - now I am in a lurch too because if I were to file
a plan from an FSIM recognized airport, and file it into the vatsim filing
system, it would have gladly taken it; how do I know because I just filed
and cancelled it. If vatsim wants to be so 'controlling' of ICAO-only flights,
then there needs to be a fix in the online flight plan filing system to 'exclude'
such unauthorized flights. Not only that there are many ICAO and Squawkbox
inconsistencies that probly will never get ironed out! SO then it boils down
to flying into a controlled airspace but an uncontrolled airport, and things
like fra99-a on the jeppson website - sheez c'mon vatsim lighten up on flight
restrictions and give people a break on first time infrindgements PLEEZ !
Most people dont read everything there is to know about flight restrictions,
vatsim and so on; we just want to have some fun and promote friendship. Perhaps
a vatsim webpage devoted to such issues with maps an such would prevent future
misunderstandings if we all have to be so 'REAL' around here.
Mr Gray - ceo of WAE a NON-REAL VA
Christopher Trott
VATSIM. It is quite clear on the fact that you may only have ONE VATSIM ID,
not 2, not 3, ONE. Now, you've just invalidated any and all arguments you
have otherwise, because that Supervisor can defend his actions by saying
that you were removed from the server and then signed back on using a second
ID, which is against the Code of Conduct and the little statement you agreed
to when you signed up called the User Agreement. Sorry man, but you just
dug your own grave. That infraction right there is grounds for VATSIM to
delete both IDs and ban you from the network.
Vatsim Member
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Ertac, If you would of done some research, you might of found this:
Meeting Notes from VATSIM Executive Committee
April 15, 2003 - 2200 UTC
Attending
Kyprianos Biris, VATEUR1 - Europe Region Director - Executive Committee chairman
Daniel Boulay, VATNA1 - North America Region Director
Terry Scanlan, VATPAC1 - Oceania Region Director
Bill Reynolds, VATASI1 - Asia Region Director
Tom Schroeder, VATSIM11 - VP Operations (joined 22:50)
Roland Collins, VATSIM23 - VP Regions - Afr. Me. Region afairs representative
AGENDA ITEM - Political issues around the World
Participants discussed the problems or real World (r.w.) political problems
and the need of VATSIM to avoid any kind of their simulation. It was identified
that when VATSIM does not officially restrict certain provocative activities,
then this is potentially identified as "VATSIM Supporting the activity".
Again on the other hand it was identified that if many restrictions related
to r.w. politics start being published there is a danger of VATSIM being
acused of doing politics and this can develop into a serious problem especially
if SUPervisors may try to impose them with disciplinary action.
Reference was made by VATEUR1 of some recent problems still pending solution
over a disputed area in Northern Part of Cyprus and the related r.w. politics
in the area. In r.w. there is aviation activity in the area daily not recognized
by United Nations or ICAO. If VATSIM were to approve activity in the area
we could be acused from one of the involved parties as making politics. If
on the other hand VATSIM were to forbid it, again we could be accused of
making politics since we would restrict flight simulation of daily r.w. operations
in the area.
VATSIM23 pointed out that the main objective of VATSIM network is to login
and enjoy "air traffic simulation" and get rid of all the r.w. political
issues as soon as we as users connect on to the network. It is this that
RDs should keep in mind when approving or disapproving policies. He also
reminded that VATSIM provides the infastructure but, the Regions' airspace
belongs to the VATSIM Region and not VATSIM Network in general. The regulations
that locally (beyond CoR and CoC) govern it, are the ones approved by the
sole responsibility of the respective Regional Director.
Hope this might help you if you this read this.
Ertaç Paprat
Hello Vatsim Member
Firstly Why did not you try to type your real name on your post?
I gave my answer to Kyrianos Biris about his post.
Just check this link: http://snn.simflight.com/cgi-bin/dnewsweb?cmd=article&group=simflight.vatsim&item=14679&utag=
Was my flight provocative?Or Did you see my flight?What can be provocative
on VATSIM please explain?Please read again suspend reasons on Code of Condust,Regulations
and rules pages.How can i deserve suspension?
If you have moral courage about posting your real name,I can answer you ..
Best Regards
Ertaç PAPRAT
Greg Phelan
If nothing else, you have broken the rules by having two IDs.
Vatsim Code of Conduct, section A, paragraph 6.
"6. You may register for and hold only one VATSIM registration and you
may hold only one VATSIM identification number and password."
(from http://www.vatsim.net/library/codeofconduct.html )
What happened with the flight notwithstanding, you broke the rules in having
two IDs, and if you only got a 24 hour suspension, you got off light.
Greg Phelan
"Ertaç Paprat" <epa...@mynet.com> wrote in message
news:3fa47aad$1...@news.simflight.com...
Ertaç Paprat
Mr. Phelan
I meant,I got my second ID after my first suspension so what can be problem
with my first flight?I asked that as you can see clearly.Also multiple ID
problem was solved by relevant authorithy.
Best Regards
Ertaç PAPRAT
Chris Barham
>
>
>I feel your pain, as i have been discriminated against by VS UK admins.
>the only explanation i can give is that im from Northern Ireland, a part
>of the UK which they dont want to recognise.
>
this would like to contact me with his real name I will explain to him
again the reasons for his alleged suspension, if indeed it took place.
--
Chris Barham
dire...@vatsim-uk.org
Ilan Jonas
I tend not to express opinions on disputes I am not directly involved with,
but I find it important this time.
Knowing most of the members replying so far, I know they are concerned with
Vatsim activity only and have no other intention. I will reply however from
a TOTALLY neutral POV.
First of all, I am from Israel. We are in warm and close relations with Turkish
vACC, Hellenic vACC and Cyprus vACC - just like real life. My best friends
over the network are from these 3 countries, so no one can accuse me of being
biased here.
The first question is who is right about LCEN and North Cyprus? the simple
answer is WHO CARES?! this is purely irrelevant in Vatsim.
The only thing matters is that this area is in dispute. If the area is in
real dispute, do the most simple thing - don't fly there online! (you will
not have atc at LCEN anyway...).
If you have the urge to fly LCEN all of a sudden, do it offline (and have
ATC :-) ), i'm sure you all remember how to do it...
Before you will claim that being smart from the side is easy, I'll tell you
that I made a rule in Israel which prevents any military flights over Lebanese
land or at Gaza international. We are also allowing free palestinian activity
at Gaza without the real world (very political) restrictions. As simple as
that - the best way to end a conflict is to prevent it in the first place.
Turkish/Hellenic/Cyprus vACCs can do the same (I think).
To conclude, Ercan my friend, You shouldn't be surprised by the fact people
accuse you of political intentions, regardless if that's the case. The fact
you chose LCEN over about 30000 other available airports looks bad. Really
bad. Running and accusing the SUP of political and racist actions doesn't
help now - again, regardless if it's true or not.
I would really call it a day, continue flying on VATSIM for the purpose of
flying and nothing else.
You know what - don't look at it as a rule, just as a favour to all Vatsim
members: don't use LCEN online ok? we love our organization as free of conflicts
as possible.
Thanks, and none of you should be offended as mentioned above!
Sincerely yours,
Ilan Jonas
VATIL1
Peter Preston
As Ilan says, the best way to avoid conflicts is to prevent them, in the original
sense of that Latin word, by "getting there first" so that it doesn't arise.
As the proverb says, prevention is better than cure.
Speaking for myself, I am so grateful that there are organisations like VATSIM
and IVAO, which greatly enhance what would otherwise be a very solitary hobby,
that it would seem churlish not even to show one's gratitude to the extent
of obeying its legitimate rules and regulations.
If you willingly join an organisation, you should - indeed you may be required
to - obey its rules; or, of course, resign.
Peter Preston