Miami Approach tonight
Graham B.
around 0130Z.
I was inbound to Miami from Denver as MDN110 via the Cypress Three arrival
from the NW. Upon hand-off to Miami approach I attempted comms on voice. No
response. Ok, fine, RW sucks, we all know that so I call him up on text at
11000 we were on a radar heading of 095. All fine, get the response d/m 8000
hdg 100, but no runway assignment. Later on still not knowing the runway I
queried the controller and we were assigned 9R. Later cleared down to 3000
and hdg 110. All normal 'til now when the fun really begins. From here on in
I receive NO FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS from approach, we are on the 110 hdg at
3000 which will put us on about a 2 mile final if we're not widened to the
right soon. Not good. I ask for vectors for another approach. Long delay
finally receive response of "negative" you will cross threshold shortly.
What? I did try to get a visual out of him while the approach was still
salvageable, no response. So now 4 miles from touchdown, at 3000 hdg 110 no
approach clearance ask again for vectors, then over the threshold 9R we are
told to contact tower. Still 3000 hdg 110 I called center back to see if I
could get some sensible information for a new approach. Over Virginia Key
still 3000 hdg 110 I think center told me he wasn't responding to his chat
box either. At that point I disconnected and entered downwind for a visual
offline since there was so much traffic around and I didn't want to continue
to the Bahamas VFR. :-) Anyhow, the lack of RW really shouldn't have been a
problem. If we had of been given a right turn to intercept and an APPROACH
CLEARANCE it would have worked, but alas we never were cleared for the
approach.
Thanks for any insight, and sorry for rambling.
Graham Burgoyne
Graham B.
way, not trying to rant about it, just trying to get a possible training
issue sorted out.
"Ben Oakley VATUSA3" <vatusa_...@benoak.com> wrote in message
news:3f3c4daf$1...@news.simflight.com...
> IMHO, public rants like this are really embarassing and out of line.
> Situations like this would best be handled by contacting the ARTCC Chief,
> which in this case would be Chris Zedalis.
>
>
> Then again, that's just -my- 2 cents.
>
> --
> Ben Oakley
> VATUSA3
> Training Director - VATUSA
> "Graham B." <cg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3f3c3888$1...@news.simflight.com...
Ben Oakley VATUSA3
Situations like this would best be handled by contacting the ARTCC Chief,
which in this case would be Chris Zedalis.
Then again, that's just -my- 2 cents.
--
Ben Oakley
VATUSA3
Training Director - VATUSA
"Graham B." <cg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f3c3888$1...@news.simflight.com...
Ben Oakley VATUSA3
work up the scale.
There are better and more effecient ways to handle this. You do not need to
post in a forum for the entire VATUSA Membership to handle a local problem.
=)
--
Ben Oakley
VATUSA3
Training Director - VATUSA
"Graham B." <cg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f3c4e92$1...@news.simflight.com...
Graham B.
Once again sorry.
"Ben Oakley VATUSA3" <vatusa_...@benoak.com> wrote in message
news:3f3c...@news.simflight.com...
Sonja Michelle L. Thomas
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Ok Graham you wont stir the pot but I sure as hell will!!
WARNING: Faint of heart need not read!
ONE: "IMHO, public rants like this are really embarrassing and out of
line."
A TOTALLY UNNECESSARY RESPONSE!!!! That response from someone with a
high number VATSIM ID begs the question just who are the people behind the
scenes! I read the original and it did NOT come off as a complaining rant!!!
Graham only relayed his experience this evening and asked for some insight.
AT NO TIME DID HE BERATE, POINT FINGERS OR DOWN RIGHT BITCH! NOTHING WHAT SO
EVER WAS EMBARRASSING OR OUT OF LINE!
TWO: "There are better and more efficient ways to handle this. You do not
need to
post in a forum for the entire VATUSA Membership to handle a local problem."
I don't believe at any time did Graham point a finger and say "I have a
problem with so and so, they are wrong! Fix it!" Again, he relayed the
events, his reactions and his subsequent reactions and his handling of the
situation and asked for some insight. The underlying issues, technical or
personal, are unknown. Could have been a breakdown of RW, possibly the
controller was overwhelmed, possibly the controller is relatively new, the
controller could have been having personal issues behind the screen
distracting him or her, the controller just have been having a bad night
behind the scope. In short, who knows.
THREE: Hell, I'm not even going to go into point three right now since it's
an issue that has been concerning me and from what appears to me, numerous
others. I'll chew a few pounds of that flesh in private for anyone caring to
delve deeper. Be forewarned I am not the nicest woman around and have a
mouth and attitude that'll make a sailor blush.
Graham,
You did right. You had a breakdown in comms, you switched to a backup to
reestablish contact. Even after that, you received dicey ATC that conflicted
training or common sense. You asked for clarification when the ATC you were
given didn't make sense to you. IT'S YOUR RIGHT. YOU'RE PIC! You did not
make any procedures you were not cleared for, you continued on the course
and heading last given while continuing to re-establish contact. Once past
the point of what appeared to you a complete breakdown of the approach and
landing you did NOT continue an attempt to land uncleared instead you
contacted center advising them of your situation and requesting new vectors
for a new approach. It seems you also tried to confirm with them that there
was a comm problem with approach ATC. They verified that they too could not
raise approach. Center more than likely would have vectored you back around
for a second try, possibly a bit further out while trying to determine if
approach was gone for good or still online. Happened to me in a similar
situation. It was towers first day behind a scope, dealing with a lot of
traffic all the while trying to do it on text. I contacted approach, they
vectored me around for another try a bit further out, gave the new guy some
pointers. Turned out to be "third time's the charm" deal, but we all worked
together to put me and the other traffic safely on the ground. You decision
to disconnect and land offline so as not to disrupt other traffic was your
prerogative and a decent handling of this situation. I just hope you advised
center as a courtesy before doing disconnecting. You may have been good to
go a second time around with center taking the reigns to see you safely to
the ground.
Graham at no time was your post demeaning, embarrassing or out of line! It
brought up a valid situation that many of us have been in before. You may
have had questions about how you handled the situation which prompted you to
relay it to the community and ask for insight. One thing I see in EVERY
issue I receive from AOPA is the phrase:
"A good pilot is always learning."
Whatever your reasons you reached out to the rest of the community for help
in bette understanding the situation and what went on. Gave the rest of us
(IF anyone else speaks up) to exchange our thoughts and ideas on the
situation and experiences we've had. Through this process we all learn and
come together as a community. It concerns me how it's seemingly coming to a
point where pilots and controllers need to think twice before posting in
fear of being chastised or offending someone else's feelings. This is after
all a public forum for us to communicate and learn from/teach each other.
I'm sure if you goto any FBO and relate you experience that night it'll open
a discussion on procedures, FARS, experiences and probably a few "war"
stories.
Graham, you conducted yourself professionally and by no means have any
reason to feel the need to apologize! Personally I thing Mr Oakley "VATUSA3"
owes YOU an apology for his high minded public chastising.
- --
*************************************************
Sonja Michelle L. Thomas
sonja@_spam_be_gone_sdf.lonestar.org
--- Oregano, n.: The ancient Italian art of pizza folding.
"Graham B." <cg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f3c3888$1...@news.simflight.com...
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James Falkner
-jhf-
Bob Johnson
Bravo, Sonja, Bravo. With Vatsim over 50,000 strong, postings like Graham's
is good learning material for us all. At 3,000' in a heavy, there is not
much time to deal with a slow twr. Graham, you did well.
One last thing. Sonja, I would fly you wing anytime.
Bob Johnson
UPS700
KONT Hub Mgr.
Marv
This response is so "typical" of Vatsim reps. it's like a broken record. I
think they all have a macro for it. However if you complain via snail mail
to a BOG type guy, and go around the little guys who don't respond, you
might get an answer to your concerns.
Marv
"Sonja Michelle L. Thomas" <sonja@_no_spam_sdf.lonestar.org> wrote in
message news:3f3c9f26$1...@news.simflight.com...
Ian Elchitz
"Graham B." <cg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Just would like some insight into what happened on approach to Miami tonight
>around 0130Z.
>Thanks for any insight, and sorry for rambling.
>Graham Burgoyne
Graham,
Sounds to me like you handed it just fine. Many people might have gone ballistic.
I have no clue what happened with your approach guy but here are some possibilities:
1) Could care less
2) Overwhelmed with traffic
3) No clue what they are doing
4) Technical issues
5) Important Telephone Call
6) Wife/Mother yelling "Get off that stupid Game"
7) Bio emergency
Sometimes this sort of thing just happens. I know that doesn't make it any
better. I try to think of myself as an easygoing guy - but often in similar
situations I've found myself wanting to put a hole in my monitor.
Perhaps sending an email with the time and area that the event happened to
someone in the artcc/region where it happened might yield some results. If
they can find out who it was - they might be able to give you an answer as
to why it happened, and if one of the first 3 issues perhaps they can address
it with some training.
It's a great idea to send the artcc some feedback (positive and negative)
as it really helps them out. I've often thought I was giving poor services
some nights and then found out from people that I was doing a great job.
More often then that I think I am a rock star when I actually suck it. The
ARTCC in question might even have a public forum where you can mention the
problem. You would be amazed how many people DON'T read this forum.
ian
AvA Public Relations Chad Black
their dirty laundry hung out here for everyone to see.
> This response is so "typical" of Vatsim reps. it's like a broken record. I
> think they all have a macro for it."
anonymous.....lol
"Marv" <marv...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3f3ce9f5$1...@news.simflight.com...
Mark Brummett
Don't like it? Don't play..simple as that. I know what goes on behind the
scenes, and if all of the general membership did, you guys would be singing
a different tune.
People seem to get the impression that just because this is a game that
rules and policies aren't to be adhered to. While Graham's post wasn't
inflammatory, I don't believe Ben's rebuttal to be out of line, either.
With a member core of 60000, there NEEDs to be channels in which to handle
anything of this nature. All Ben was trying to do was to stop this thread
from getting out of hand.
If you guys think you can do this any better, make up your own network (as
several have done, and several more have gone by the wayside).
</rant>
"AvA Public Relations Chad Black" <p...@flyava.org> wrote in message
news:3f3d0cf3$1...@news.simflight.com...
Ben Oakley VATUSA3
I'm in no way trying to hide our dirty laundry. =) I'm more or less just
trying to respect the controllers here. We all make mistakes, but I guess my
personal opinion is there are other ways to handle these. If you feel that
by posting this in here will help the situation, okay. That's all I am
interested in, is handling the situation.
And to those who asked, there is no "marco", I was simply stating my
opinion. =)
And BTW, there is no need to email the BoG if you experience one small
problem with an ARTCC. If you feel it is warranted, okay, but the BoG
receives trucks and trucks of mail daily, and it would help them if you
could go up the latter. Obviously, if you took this to the level of VATNA,
and were not satisified, you would contact the BoG. I'll kind of give you a
rundown on the Chain of Command, as I did not understand it in the past.
1) ARTCC Chief
2) VATUSA Region Director (West, Central, Eastern)
3) VATUSA Headquarters
4) VATSIM-NA (North America)
5) VATSIM BoG.
If you ever have any problems, and cant' get a response, I'll help you out.
In regards to this matter, I will see to it that it is dealt with. =)
Thanks as always Members.
--
Ben Oakley
VATUSA3
Training Director - VATUSA
"Marv" <marv...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3f3ce9f5$1...@news.simflight.com...