Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

AVSIM: Who's ready to be a MAN and appologize.

26 views
Skip to first unread message

Justin Snyder

unread,
Jun 12, 2001, 11:33:27 PM6/12/01
to
Unlike our Executive Director who made the mistake of taking this all "very
personally," Tom Allensworth and the 40+ other members of the AVSIM staff
have not fought fire with fire. Despite constant erroneous attacks and
insults with language such as "yellow journalism," "AVSIM has succumbed to
the lowest level of journalism," and "I'd just as soon buy "The National
Enquirer" Tom Allensworth responded with FACT and only FACT.

Looks like AVSIM comes out shining on this one and several are sporting some
serious "egg." We all know who they are.

Signed,
Faithful AVSIM Viewer


-------------------------------------------------
FS SHARECENTER - The Best Flight Sim Shareware is here....
New Now: Bari Palese and Philadelphia International Aiport Sceneries
by SimFlyers Associated - Buy them in a bundle at a sensational price!
http://fssharecenter.com
-------------------------------------------------
SIMMARKET Download Store - NEW NOW: The GAP Singles
The best Collection of German Airports ever - Now includes Innsbruck (LOWI)
http://simmarket.com/online/gap
------------------------------------------------

Your use of the simFlight Newsgroups is subject to the terms
outlined at http://simflight.com/snn


Scott Stevenson

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 12:13:39 AM6/13/01
to
I'll speak up about this since I was one the ones bashing Avsim for their
lack of journalistic intregity. I do not and will not apologize.

I still feel like they only wanted to report one side of the story and when
they tried to give Randy an oppotunity to respond they went against their
own word by publishing their interrogation 24 hours prior to the deadline
they set for Randy. You call that integrity?

And where in Harvey's letter does it say anything about Randy buying a
computer for himself? It sure says that on the front page of Avsim
(according to unsubstantiated or credible sources or however they are
refering to Harvey today.)

And where on the Avsim front pages have you seen (within the last year)
anything positive written about SATCO?

And why is Harvey's letter on display in the SB/PC forum when time and time
again it's pointed out that that forum is for SB and PC isuues not SATCO and
IVAO issues?

and I could go on, but just like you won't change my mind, I won't change
yours.

And for what it's worth if Randy spent any of the donations then I feel he
must go. And if that means an end to SATCO then so be it. I'll also say
this, I have never met, spoke, e-mailed or pretended to know Randy, but I do
know this, if it wasn't for SATCO (read Randy) I would not have met a lot of
the tremendous people that I feel lucky enough to call my friends.

All I was asking for was fairness and all I got was a correction on my
spelling.

One more thing, the money shouldn't be returned. Give it to charity. I'm
sure we all have our favorite charities but I would suggest it go the the
Imus Ranch for Kids With Cancer. Considering one of our own is currently
battling cancer, I believe this would be a face-saving gesture.

Scott

Paul Biderman

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 12:58:46 AM6/13/01
to
I was one of the people who was unhappy with AVSIM's "coverage" of this
situation, and my opinon hasn't changed one bit.

I'll simply reference this statement by Tom Allensworth:

"We were going to hold off posting this until tomorrow. However, we are
pretty confident that we are not going to get a response. Therefore, we
are posting it 24 hours in advance..."

Then he claims 2 sentances later that he has no personal issues with
SATCO. Yeah, right.

Sure isn't very good journalism if you ask me, and I've had training in
journalism.

Paul Biderman
Houston ARTCC/C2
Dedicated AVSIM Avoider

Denny

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 12:47:24 AM6/13/01
to
>And where on the Avsim front pages have you seen (within the last year)
>anything positive written about SATCO?

What Positive things have happened to SATCO over the past year? I am not
saying things were bad(well there is this incident) at SATCO but what has
there been to report? I haven't see anything posted on simflights or
fsplanets front page other then flying events, perhaps you can tell me this
magical website you know of that has made front page stories of SATCO so
often.
Avsim regularly posts Flyin events on their front page for SATCO, they post
regular updates on SB/PC development although they are not affiliated with
either ATC network.

Another point, is it OK for other websites to ignore what is going on? Is it
not news? Do they not owe it to their readers to report something? I have
not seen one story on simflight(not bashing you) about this, and I feel that
ignoring such an issue is as much a biased statement as you claim Avsim has
commited.
Dennis


"Scott Stevenson" <dblw...@gbis.com> wrote in message
news:3b26...@news.simflight.com...

Jose Gonzalez

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 1:24:58 AM6/13/01
to

Every time I read one of your posts just
makes me laugh so hard and wonder if you are
actually an avsim staff impostor, or actually
an AVSIM hater who wants to give ASIM a bad
name by having you as a public supporter.

I wonder if you could actually make sense of
anything you post here if you actually read
it.

From all the replies to your posts during the
past week, I can conclude that noone likes
your attitude nor anything you have to say.
You are not a satco user, and you love avsim
so much... then why dont you just go to the
avsim forums and stay there... for our sake,
and AVSIM's.

Cheers

JG

Brian Crowley

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 8:02:50 AM6/13/01
to

Scott Stevenson <dblw...@gbis.com> wrote in message
news:3b26...@news.simflight.com...
> I'll speak up about this since I was one the ones bashing Avsim for their
> lack of journalistic intregity. I do not and will not apologize.

Likewise.

>
> I still feel like they only wanted to report one side of the story and
when
> they tried to give Randy an oppotunity to respond they went against their
> own word by publishing their interrogation 24 hours prior to the deadline
> they set for Randy. You call that integrity?

Agreed.

>
> And where in Harvey's letter does it say anything about Randy buying a
> computer for himself? It sure says that on the front page of Avsim
> (according to unsubstantiated or credible sources or however they are
> refering to Harvey today.)

Agreed.

>
> And where on the Avsim front pages have you seen (within the last year)
> anything positive written about SATCO?

OK, contention time. Management of SATCO, and arguably SATCO itself, is
a bit like a government. When was the last time you saw any media source
openly praising a government for just doing what it was set up to do -
govern? Conversely, if there's even the slightest hint of wrongdoing on
Capitol Hill (I'm not a US citizen, as that spelling may attest to) or in
the Houses of Parliament, the hacks are there within seconds trying to get
the story. Sad as that may be, that's the world of today's media.

> And why is Harvey's letter on display in the SB/PC forum when time and
time
> again it's pointed out that that forum is for SB and PC isuues not SATCO
and
> IVAO issues?

Because this argument could have an effect on the SB/PC usage?

> And for what it's worth if Randy spent any of the donations then I feel he
> must go. And if that means an end to SATCO then so be it. I'll also say
> this, I have never met, spoke, e-mailed or pretended to know Randy, but I
do
> know this, if it wasn't for SATCO (read Randy) I would not have met a lot
of
> the tremendous people that I feel lucky enough to call my friends.

Agreeing with someone as much as I have you in this post cannot possibly
be healthy :-)

> One more thing, the money shouldn't be returned. Give it to charity. I'm
> sure we all have our favorite charities but I would suggest it go the the
> Imus Ranch for Kids With Cancer. Considering one of our own is currently
> battling cancer, I believe this would be a face-saving gesture.

Hmm, people didn't donate to a cancer fund (as worthy a cause as that
is), they donated to SATCO. If they want to donate their money to it, then
good for them, but IMO it should left to the individual donor to decide.

--
Cheers
Brian Crowley
SATUK S1

kbsory

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 8:38:53 AM6/13/01
to
There will be no apology from me!!!
My opinion has not changed even though I've read every post on the
subject. Like Paul and others pointed out, Avsim's jumping the gun on the
release was a lowlife, cowardly act. The ludicrous reason stated was not
the real reason for stepping up the time table.
Charles

Ernie Alston

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 10:13:46 AM6/13/01
to
Denny wrote:
> Another point, is it OK for other websites to ignore what is going on? Is it
> not news? Do they not owe it to their readers to report something? I have
> not seen one story on simflight(not bashing you) about this, and I feel that
> ignoring such an issue is as much a biased statement as you claim Avsim has
> commited.
> Dennis

Hi Dennis,

Well the idea of bias IMO can only be supported if SimFlight routinely
reported
on other controversies then ignored this one. But Simflight often doesn't
report on ongoing controveries,etc.

So SimFlight has some history of not reporting on this kind of
controversial stuff.
Unless one of the column writers like say Trev Morson, or Katy take it
upon
themselves to write an editorial about it, which on occasion does happen.

Avsim on the other hand has a long history of jumping right into the
middle
of these frays. There's of course a risk that comes with these actions.

Ernie.

SimFlight reviewer.

Daniel Hill

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 11:41:38 AM6/13/01
to

I agree with Paul, Jose and "kbsory. No
apologies are forthcoming from me or
warranted by AVSIM. My opinion of AVSIM (and
of some others, it seems) -- that it bows to
the lowest form of journalism, that it is
biased to the extreme and that it is no
better than The National Enquirer when it
comes to credibility -- remains unchanged. It
is the rancid *style* of journalism that is
at issue with me and others, not who is right
or wrong (that will resolve itself, for
sure).

A newspaper can report the truth (and nothing
but the truth) but still in its methods,
intent and reporting style clearly show
itself to be after only one thing -- a
personal mission (vendetta) aimed at
destroying another person or entity. That is
what AVSIM says to me.

It is not unexpected that Mr. Snyder would
defend AVSIM so voraciously given the
noticeable similarity in style between the
comments made by AVSIM and the long-standing
disrespectful attitude that Mr. Snyder has
displayed toward Mr. Whistler.

While I am sure that apologies *will* be
forthcoming in some venue, AVSIM should
consider itself among those who owe one to
the sim-flight community for its
reprehensible *behavior* in covering this
issue.

Daniel Hill ATL_ARTCC

Justin Snyder

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 12:08:15 PM6/13/01
to
So Daniel, how do you *really* feel about Avsim? LOL.

Please leave off the Mister when referring to me. When you fill the Inbox of
every email address I have with ceaseless vulgarity and threats, this is
just a little sickening.

"the long-standing disrespectful attitude that Mr. Snyder has displayed
toward Mr. Whistler."

Wrong. I have allot of respect for Randy Whistler and have publicly stated
that here. Simply by virtue of the fact that he is considerably older than I
am, is a family man, and a professional life demands that respect. My
problem with him is his management style and very poor decisions as of late
with regard to SATCO. That explanation was for others, not Daniel Hill.

BTW Daniel, as you will no doubt recall, your hatred for me all began when I
started forwarding to Randy your emails to me filled with bizarre criticisms
of him and your low opinion of him. Shall we go any further? I'm sure I have
them lying around here somewhere...


"Daniel Hill" <dmhi...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3b27...@news.simflight.com...

Marcus Wood

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 1:31:51 PM6/13/01
to
> BTW Daniel, as you will no doubt recall, your hatred for me all began when
I
> started forwarding to Randy your emails to me filled with bizarre
criticisms
> of him and your low opinion of him. Shall we go any further? I'm sure I
have
> them lying around here somewhere...


That's nice Justin

it's cheep shots like that, that really tell how Mature you are...Thanks for
the insight. Please People...read what it is your writing before you hit
the Send key. Hopefully to avoid this.

Marcus Wood

Rod Parsons

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 2:37:50 PM6/13/01
to
dmhi...@bellsouth.net (Daniel Hill) wrote in
<3b27...@news.simflight.com>:

>
>I agree with Paul, Jose and "kbsory. No
>apologies are forthcoming from me or
>warranted by AVSIM. My opinion of AVSIM (and
>of some others, it seems) -- that it bows to
>the lowest form of journalism, that it is
>biased to the extreme and that it is no
>better than The National Enquirer when it
>comes to credibility -- remains unchanged. It
>is the rancid *style* of journalism that is
>at issue with me and others, not who is right
>or wrong (that will resolve itself, for
>sure).

What, because they reported the facts ??? *many* of which were confirmed by
Mr. Stein


>A newspaper can report the truth (and nothing
>but the truth) but still in its methods,
>intent and reporting style clearly show
>itself to be after only one thing -- a
>personal mission (vendetta) aimed at
>destroying another person or entity. That is
>what AVSIM says to me.

Boy and what editorial page do your read in your newspaper. There is more
crap and crud and bias (even political) in those than Avsim even comes
close to

>It is not unexpected that Mr. Snyder would
>defend AVSIM so voraciously given the
>noticeable similarity in style between the
>comments made by AVSIM and the long-standing
>disrespectful attitude that Mr. Snyder has
>displayed toward Mr. Whistler.

Oops more mud slinging :-( Although I dont agree with many of Mr Snyders
posts, he is entitled to state his opinion, just as you are yours. With
respect to his attitude towards certain parties, perhaps they are
justified. We dont know that.

>While I am sure that apologies *will* be
>forthcoming in some venue, AVSIM should
>consider itself among those who owe one to
>the sim-flight community for its
>reprehensible *behavior* in covering this
>issue.

Well like I say your entitled to your opinion, although I dont agree with
it (which is my right also). IMO the apologies should be going in the
opposite direction from which you suggest. However as I say, its just my
opinion

Daniel Hill

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 3:04:43 PM6/13/01
to

Rant on, Justin. Your reputation precedes
you. Nothing you say is true, from inbox
spamming to my supposed criticism of Randy.
I'll stand on my reputation with others.

Dan

Hal Bennett

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 2:59:24 PM6/13/01
to
Marcus as of your 'side note' post, you are no longer held in high regard
as someone qualified to speak on the subject of maturity. Also, where did
you go to school?

Justin Snyder

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 3:37:39 PM6/13/01
to
Airing this publicly is a waste of people's time. Nonetheless I have just
been accused of lying. Hopefully no one is interested, but if you are, email
me and I will attach *AT LEAST* one dozen emails from Daniel Hill to me,
over a period of several months, complete with all headers, documenting
*exactly* what I said.


"Daniel Hill" <dmhi...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:3b27b94b$1...@news.simflight.com...

Daniel Hill

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 3:41:07 PM6/13/01
to

Justin, no one would accuse you of lying --
would they?

Daniel Hill

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 3:42:35 PM6/13/01
to

Oh, a small technicality -- I don't *accuse*
you of lying. I am *stating* it,
categorically.

Marcus Wood

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 5:56:35 PM6/13/01
to
I speak on Maturity because I am very Mature Thank you for knowing me so
well... Mr Bennett do I know you?

Graduated from Terre Haute North Vigo High School - Class of 90'

Marcus Wood
"Hal Bennett" <hbb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b27...@news.simflight.com...

Denny

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 6:25:40 PM6/13/01
to
True, point taken
Dennis
"Ernie Alston" <alst...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3b27751a$1...@news.simflight.com...

Cali Kid

unread,
Jun 13, 2001, 11:08:00 PM6/13/01
to
Apologize for what? For insisting TA play by the same rules of
accountability he wanted to hold Randy to, yet was not so willing to adhere
to himself?

As my daughter used to say in her younger years, "I don't think so."

Reggie

0 new messages