ILS approach Via Charts
Anthony Ward
I would like to thanks all the people who help me understand the VOR problem
but it wasn't easy and I found my mistake.
Now I have a new question About ils approach charts.
http://server46.hypermart.net/skya/sqw/ils.jpg
I circled an arrow. my questions are:
does the " arrow " mean a procedure turn?
If so When should we start the procedure turn?
At what altitude should we start the procedure turn?( I believe 5000ft but
not sure)
Also a quick question that I saw on all charts what is the circle called
MSA?
Thanx for any help
Anthony
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Joe Clemmons
direction to START the procedure turn.
IN this case, over the IAF and established on the outbound segment you'd
initiate the turn to the right. The hdgs indicate both the outbound and
inbound heading. As far as altitude, you need to reference the descent
profile. The 5000 ft is the minimum until established on the Final Appr
Course INBOUND and passing FREAL. You could actually cross the IAF at 8000
if ya want. And then descend. Important note. See the 10nm circle around the
IAF ? The PT needs to be initiated and completed WITHIN that 10nm.
Hope some of this helps. Probably didnt explain very well or perhaps didnt
even answer your question(s).
"Anthony Ward" <aw...@veriomail.com> wrote in message
news:3b43...@news.simflight.com...
dick wolff
> Now I have a new question About ils approach charts.
> http://server46.hypermart.net/skya/sqw/ils.jpg
> I circled an arrow. my questions are:
> does the \\\" arrow \\\" mean a procedure turn?
The arrow is showing that the PT is to the right. The numbers are for
reference, no wind, 45 degree turn out to a heading of 137, left turn to
317, to intercept the ILS with track of 272 magnetic.
> If so When should we start the procedure turn?
ATC would most likely vector you to intercept the ILS, so you probably
wouldn\\\'t have to do one; however, the full approach procedure requires
that you fly outbound from the Final Approach Fix (AJAAY) on track of 092
degrees until FREAL. You may start the PT anytime after FREAL, but since
you must remain within 10 NM of the FAF, and since FREAL is 7.1 NM away
from AJAAY, you only have 2.9 miles to make the turn. That\\\'s not alot
of room for a big airplane to maneuver, so turn immediately upon reaching
FREAL.
Most approaches aren\\\'t this tight, so you usually have some flexibility
as to when you execute the PT. The more time you leave yourself to get
sorted out, the better, as long as you stay within the specified distance.
> At what altitude should we start the procedure turn?( I believe 5000ft but
> not sure)
You are correct, you may do the PT at or above 5000 ft. You would be smart
to go a bit higher. Why not give yourself some room? As long as you
intercept the glide slope from below, you are free to make the approach
at a higher altitude than the minimum.
> Also a quick question that I saw on all charts what is the circle called
> MSA?
Minimum Safe Altitude within 25 NM of the VOR. This is shown for the
purpose of approaching the airport.
I saw a great IFR tutorial meant for flight simmers. If I find the URL
again, I\'ll post it. There are many good websites out there.
Cheers
Dick Wolff / CNM4
Anthony Ward
to me.
Now i understand Procedure turn, but can you give me a reason in real world
why IFR-Commercial pilots has to those kind of approach?
Anthony
Thanx again!!!
Anthony Ward
Douglas Parker
> You may start the PT anytime after FREAL, but since
>you must remain within 10 NM of the FAF, and since FREAL is 7.1 NM away
>from AJAAY, you only have 2.9 miles to make the turn. That\\\'s not alot
>of room for a big airplane to maneuver, so turn immediately upon reaching
>FREAL.
>
>Most approaches aren\\\'t this tight, so you usually have some flexibility
>as to when you execute the PT. The more time you leave yourself to get
>sorted out, the better, as long as you stay within the specified distance.
>
If I understand the procedure correctly, you need not wait until
passing FREAL before starting the Procedure Turn. The only
requirement is that you remain within 10 nm of the LOM (REDAN) at all
times.
FREAL really serves to mark the waypoint at which, if you are doing a
localizer-only approach (no glideslope available), you can descend
when inbound from 5000 ft. down to 3,800 ft.
Doug Parker
Joe Clemmons
Say if you were approaching that airport from the west and pretending the
tower/appr facility was closed/offline.
Center may clear you for the approach without vectors at all, other than
possibly "proceed direct REDAN, maintain 5000, cleared the ILS 26R appr".
Now, again you are approaching from the west and heading roughly 090 direct
REDAN. You can now SAFELY fly the approach and be assured of maintaining
terrain avoidance yet be able to 'do a 180' so to speak and safely then
intercept the ILS. Its done quite often.
"Anthony Ward" <aw...@veriomail.com> wrote in message
news:3b439611$1...@news.simflight.com...
Anthony Ward
is it use at airport like KATL-KDFW-KLAX etc... busy airport or small
airport or both?
Anthony
Joe Clemmons
does happen.
"Anthony Ward" <aw...@veriomail.com> wrote in message
news:3b43...@news.simflight.com...
dick wolff
IFR flying.
-- dick
Jacques Zahar
world
> why IFR-Commercial pilots has to those kind of approach?
Whenever an approach is flown without the help of radar vectoring, it is
called a "full approach",i.e. one has to fly the approach entirely as
depicted, starting by the IAF(Initial Approach fix), then the outbound leg
(from the IAF to the IF(intermediate fix) then through the inbound leg to
the FAF(Final approach fix)then once the FAF is passed, to either the MAP
(Missed approach Point)*1 which is the geographical point where the pilot
has to go-around and follow the procedure published for the missed approach
if no positive identification of the runway lighting, threshold or markings
have been made that allow a safe landing, or the DH(Decision Height) which
is an altitude where the runway should be in view when conducing precision
approaches (mainly ILS).
So if the enroute controller clears you for an approach to a non-controlled
airpôrt, with no APP available, you are required to fly the full approach.
Now let's have a look at the approach plate you've described in
http://server46.hypermart.net/skya/sqw/ils.jpg
on the plan view, the AJAAY intersection is the Initial approach fix (see
the (IAF) ?). The same point can be located on the profile view, as the
beginning of ou descent.
How can this fix can be located? Three ways: by punching the fix's name in
your FMS or in your IFR-approved GPS (lucky you!), by following the 079°
radial to AJAAY starting from ATL VOR (look at the ATL R-079 on the plan
view), up to 6.5 DME (see the 6.5within the D shaped box?) or if you're not
DME equipped (in an old crappy C172 for example), by setting up the ATL VOR
to the radial 079 on VOR 1 and the 181 radial of the PDK VOR on your VOR n°2
The last one is being vectored by ATC (see the RADAR?)
For a full approach, you would have to fly direct to this point and not to
descend below 5000 as the profile view depicts it.
Notice that if you're coming from the ATL VOR direct to AJJAY, you should
not go below 5000feet until reaching AJAAY. On your way to the IAF, this is
the time to prepare the plane for the approach: slow down to the approach
speed (180 Kts or less) by dropping a notch or two of flaps, make sure you
performed all the approach check list, since the workload will be high
during the approach.
Okay, let's assume you've made it to the AJAAY intersection (by the way you
should have positive identification of the fix once over it since AJAAY is
also the REDAN Outer Marker). You then have to turn outbound on the 092°
heading (see it on the plan view?) and start the timer. On standard
procedure turns, one is supposed to fly outbound for one minute (to allow
enough time for tracking outbound and correcting for the crosswind) and
start the descend up to 5000 feet, so plan accordingly: If you're crossing
the IAF at say 8000 feet you'll have to descend at more than 1000ft/mn to
reach the 5000ft
limit at the end of the procedure turn which should take around 2.5 minutes
(1 minute outbound plus 1.5 miute for the procedure turn. You'd better be
starting your descent earlier. Note that 5000ft is NOT a mandatory altitude,
consider it only as a floor altitude for that initial approach segment.
But do not rely ONLY on the timer: the procedure protects you as long as
you stay within the limits. See the big circle of 10 NM radius on the plan
view? This is the limit, i.e. your procedure turn should be completed before
10 NM of the IAF, which in our case should be around 16.3 DME(6.3 plus 10 NM
radius). See the remainder of it on the profile view at the right. So
depending on your ground speed, you should start the procedure turn between
13 and 14 DME to be safe.
As another safety measure (backup systems are always useful), you have setup
your VOR N°2 to the Peachtree VOR (PBK, if not done already) and the OBS to
the 156° radial, so when the needle centers, you're on for the procedure
turn (see the FREAL intersection on the plan view).
Notice that if you're coming from the North-East to AJAAY you might find it
difficult to turn to follow the 092° and come back to the outbound track
that you've probably overshooted (planes are not made to do turns at right
angles yet). So in that case you'll fly a modified procedure turn which is a
kind of a race track, i.e. once you overfly the AJAAY IAF, you fly direct on
the 137° heading for 45 seconds, then parallel the 092° course for one
minute (or approx.13/14 DME, then turn left to 317° to intercept the
Localizer.
Let's assume you've flown the standard way and you're reaching the the FREAL
intersection: you then turn to the 137° heading for 45 seconds (start the
timer or better, note the clocks' minute hand position), then turn LEFT to
the reverse heading which is 317° to intercept with a 45° degrees angle the
Localizer (I-GXZ)that you've setup on your VOR/ILS N°1 .Note that if you're
too close to the 16.5DME limit , you are legal to turn to the RIGHT to 317°
to intercept.
Now the LOC needle centers, you're "established on the LOC" and near or at
5000 feet and on a 272° heading (plus or minus the wind correction if ther's
some crosswind). You're on the Inbound leg and should make a radio call
(told you about workload, hmmm?). Do NOT descend till the Glide slope needle
is "alive" and near of the center. Concentrate on maintaining the proper
speed and attitude of the plane, along with the landing check. If things are
going well the needle should go down slowly (you always intercept a
glidepath from below). Once the needle (or the glide indicator if you're
using an HSI) is one to 1/2 dot above the center, initiate the descent by
lowering the gear.Another verification is given by the FREAL intersection
which can be spotted through 13.6 DME (notice this is no longer the same ATL
DME, but IGX DME) and the 156° radial of PBK VOR.
Now keep the needles centered by adjusting power and attitude, trying to
keep the same speed. Along your descent you have checkpoints as the BALLY
intersection (170°radial of PBK VOR on the VOR n°2 or 10DME) which should be
crossed at 3798, and AJAAY at 2637 feet (6.5DME) if you're right on the
glideslope. This points are important ones, because in case you lose the
glideslope signal or the Glide is U/S, you're on your own for controlling
your descend whch turns to a LOC non precision approach. In that case you're
required not to go below 3800 for BALLY and 2700 for AJAAY which can be
positively identified through the audible Outer Marker and light (LOM
depicted as an oval on the plan view).
Once you've crossed the AJAAY at 3800feet, you've reached the FAF (Final
Approach Fix) which is depicted on the profile view by a maltese cross, and
are on the final segment of the approach.time to start the timer again.
See the table on lower right of the plate? This one if an important one,
because it will help you identify the MAP point in case you're on a LOC
approach, and as a backup for the DH if you're on the ILS (always in real
life, think that one component of the system might fail).
First the table gives us info about the distance between the FAF and the MAP
(in that case 1.6 DME which can be found on the profile view or calculated
by substracting 4.9 to the AJAAY DME(6.5)), then the time between the FAF
(AJAAY) and the MAP depending on your Ground Speed (not the Indicated
airspeed!) Let's say your Ground speed is 120 kts, you should have reached
the MAP after 2 minutes and 27 seconds and at that time be able to see the
runway or go around.Please note that if you reach the MDA(minimum descent
altitude, we'll talk about it later on) BEFORE elapsing the time, you are
not authorised to go lower until you positively see the runway or reach the
MAP.
If you're shooting the ILS and everything is working OK, you only have to
have a look at your altimeter which will give you the DH(Decision Height),
at which you should have the runway in sight or go around.
The DH(for an ILS) and MDA(for a non precision approach, in that case the
LOC only) are depicted in the table on the lower left below the profile
view. Let's have a look at it.
The first line creates columns according to categories of airplanes, which
are classified by their approach ground speed (i.e. category A is below 90
kts, B is between 90 and 120 kts, C is121 to 140, and D is above 140 kts).
It is obvious that the speedier the approach, the higher the altitude will
be to give time to the pilot to positively see the runway.
The second line gives the DH in feet for the first kind of approach, in our
case the ILS 26R (the S is for straight-in).Here we will reach the DH at
1190 feet, whatever the approach speed of our airplane (A, B, C or D). Note
this is only 200feet above the ground, as is common for ILS Approaches so
you have to think fast!
The decision height is given above the touchdown zone for an ILS, i.e. the
actual elevation of the end of the glideslope (a few hundreds feet from the
threshold if i remember well). Note that although the airport's elevation is
1026 feet (see the map of the airport), the actual touchdown zone elevation
is only 990 feet as depicted on the map of the runway (TDZE 990). Along the
DH ther is a minimum visibility requirement, expressed in hundreds of feet
in our case 1800feet, so if the tower gives you an RVR (Runway visual range,
in the ATIS) of less than that you're not legal to fly the approach if
flying a commercial airplane.
The third line gives the minimum descent altitude(MDA) under which one
cannot descend until the runway has been positively identified, when
conducing a non precision approach, in our case a LOC only. That means that
you have to level off at this altitude and start looking outside until the
time has elapsed in which case you go around.
The MDA is logically higher than the DH 1380 feet since it is a non
precision approach (typically 400 feet above the ground), as well as the
minimum visibility of 2400feet (half a mile)
The fourth line is a special one, in this case of a sidestep approach, i.e.
you use the ILS of the 26R for the approach, then , when reaching 1380ft you
have enough time to turn left and land on the parallel runway 26R. Here the
MDA is the same for whatever category of airplane, but the required
visibility is higher for faster airplanes, which is logical.
For Cat. A to B the visibility should be of 5000feet or more and has to be
at least of 1 and 3/4 of a mile for cat. D airplanes.
The numbers in lower case give the height above ground of the DH or MDA, and
those between quotes are used for alternate airport viability determination
(a minimum ceilin of 400feet and 1 and 1/4 miles of vis is required)
As for the missed approach, you have to follow the instructions written in
the left of the profile view, in our case climb to 1600 then climbing right
turn to 3500 and intercept the 360 radial of ATL VOR.
The MSA(Minimum sector altitude, is the altitude(s) which ensure 1000ft
obstacle clairance within a radius of 25NM around the main approach beacon
(in that case the ATL VOR) for example 3100feet before reaching that point,
as the MSA circle depicts it.
Hope I've answered some of your questions, feel free to ask for more
details. My advice, try to fly this approach with the C172, then the King
air or any turboprop, it's a lot of work but rewarding
Forgive my english, I'm french speaking!
---------------
Jacques Zahar
Canadian Commercial pilot, MEL, IR, Flight instructor
*1-> a MAP is used and depicted for non-precision approaches which are
whatever approach which have no vertical guidance system, in short,
everything except ILS, MLS or PAR(precision approach radar))
Mike Gibbs
the approach, then who will? ATC are not pilots. They don't know the limitations
of your aircraft or your personal limitations as a pilot. They don't know what
kind of equipment you have installed, etc, etc. Therefore, you, as pilot must
choose. Secondly, the reason you must fly the approach is that it is the only
safe way to be sure you avoid obstacles in the area and end up at the end of the
runway at the right altitude to land or make a missed approach if necessary.
Dave West
When the aircraft is approaching the field, he will learn, either from ATIS
or from the approach controller, 1) The airfield weather 2) The runway in
use 3) The navigational and landing aids that are available. From this
info, the pilot will make a decision as to which type of approach he would
like. If it's a gin-clear day, he will probably elect a visual approach,
and ask for approval from ATC. If the weather is not so good, and there is
no radar available, then he will probably elect a procedural approach, like
the one described.
Basically, the pilot will select a type of approach from those available.
Rgds,
DW
Robert Hall
ATC DOES know what kind of aircraft you are in from your flightplan (Mooney
201, M20J or Cessna 172 as C172, etc.) and thus knows some basic information
about your standard approach speed, decent rate, etc. Besides, since when
does the type of aircraft have anything to do with the approach being flown
(other than the Cat II/III ones), it is the equipement that counts. Approach
charts cater to the different type of aircraft though by indicating A,B,C,D
in the lower portion of the chart.
ATC DOES know some of the equipement on your aircraft from your flightplan.
/F /G /E are just some of the codes used.
ATC DOES decide which runway is active and will assign one, as well as the
approach. The pilot can refuse the approach (for safety reasons) or request
another.
Regards,
Robert Hall
Mike Gibbs <mgi...@sir.com> wrote in message
news:3B5B4C7B...@sir.com...
> My simple answer to the WHY of it is this. Unless the commercial pilot
chooses
> the approach, then who will? ATC are not pilots. They don't know the
limitations
> of your aircraft or your personal limitations as a pilot. They don't know
what
> kind of equipment you have installed, etc, etc. Therefore, you, as pilot
must
> choose. Secondly, the reason you must fly the approach is that it is the
only
> safe way to be sure you avoid obstacles in the area and end up at the end
of the
> runway at the right altitude to land or make a missed approach if
necessary.
>
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