Question - How long did it take you to get a job (not the visa) while in the bay area ?

[hoops]

After years of suggesting to the wife it would be nice to return to the bay area, out of the blue the other day she turned and said - "i think we should go to the bay area"..  and she was serious.

so... it is time to do some planing (ie. budgets etc). 

So for those in the bay area now -

1) Would be interested in how long (even how many interviews) it took to get a job once you had arrived on visa waver or b2 (not so much the visa time).

2) how would you describe the job market at the moment in the bay area ? 

Thanks in advance.

[Owen B. Mehegan]

American programmer/software engineer here, living in San Francisco. Been here going on eight years.

The job market for developers right now is utterly mental. Total seller's market for anyone looking for a job. There are boatloads of funded companies trying to expand, and just not enough talented people to go around. If you're any good, the world is your oyster. My company is profitable and has been desperately trying to grow our engineering team to keep up with demand from customers and Product. In a year, we reviewed over 800 CV's, interviewed maybe 30-40 of those people on-site, made 9 offers, and got 1 acceptance.

Our standards are quite high and we're not willing to compromise those, so that makes it especially hard. But we have the money to pay people the going rate or better (which is six figures almost at a minimum, maybe fresh college grads excepted). We've gotten a much better hit rate since late last year, having brought in some seriously talented recruiters (most out there are garbage). My general feeling is that the percentage of great engineers out there is small, and of those only a small number are ever looking for a job (because if you're great, you probably have a great job). The ones that are looking will get grabbed fast, so it's a real grind for the employers.

Most companies that are more than a handful of engineers are well prepared to do visa paperwork in order to land another engineer. Mine (we're now about 60 engineers and over 220 worldwide employees) would probably offer some relocation assistance too, and I'm sure we're not the only ones. So needing a visa might make things a little more difficult for you, but not much.

Feel free to email me directly if you have more questions, or want to know about my company :)  Would be happy to refer you.

[blindman2k]

My view reflects Owen's. I have been in the bay area for three months now on an E3 visa. I didn't have to search for a job because I had one lined up before I left Australia. But the company I work for is desperately trying to hire all sorts of people but they won't compromise on quality. If you have demonstrable skills there are many many companies who will fight over you.

The E3 visa process, once you have a job, is remarkably trivial. Don't let your potential employer be scared off because they have had a bad experience with H1B visas.

     A.

On Saturday, May 11, 2013 7:47:18 AM UTC-7, hoops wrote:

[Geoff McQueen | AffinityLive]

Two comments/qualifiers in the midst of the promised land context (which is true):

• The fact this place is booming makes everything expensive. So while the headline boost looks good, you'll be paying $400/week for a room somewhere even half decent. Other living costs are high too, notwithstanding that Sydney is expensive too.
• The ease of hiring here is matched by the ease of firing. I know first hand of numerous people who've been let go from what looked like great gigs because startups pivot a lot of spending high on talent means the burn rates on investor funds are very high. This is more of a problem for people on an E-3 visa than a H1-B I believe (getting fired when on the E-3 means you 10 days to find another gig and arrange the change of employer in official terms I think), so choose wisely and don't just chase dollar signs; even a well funded venture backed startup can/will fire a bunch of their people on a pivot and a whim.

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[Clifford Heath]

Geoff,

On 14/05/2013, at 7:19 AM, Geoff McQueen | AffinityLive <geoff....@affinitylive.com> wrote:
> • The ease of hiring here is matched by the ease of firing.

How effectively can you deal with that (extend the ten days) in your employment agreement?
Or does such an agreement get torn up too easily?

Clifford Heath.

[Geoff McQueen | AffinityLive]

In short, I don't think you can. These risks can be managed, but I just wanted to point out that the promised land does have its challenges. I know more than a few folks who've had to head home before they were ready with great life lessons learned the hard way. And remember too that this is a boom, and the one thing you can be sure of is that booms bust... worth keeping mind when it comes to signing housing leases, buying stuff here, etc.

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[Michael Still]

The ten days isn't about your employment agreement. Its a requirement
of the visa... E-3s are tied to an employer. If you stop being
employed by that company your visa becomes invalid.

I would be a little bit surprised if a new employer could get through
the paperwork process in ten days. There's a new LCA required at the
least I would think.

Michael

[Clifford Heath]

On 14/05/2013, at 8:27 AM, Michael Still <mi...@stillhq.com> wrote:
> The ten days isn't about your employment agreement.

No, but the notice period is. if you can wire in a four-week notification
period it gives you longer to look for work… assuming it'll be respected.
*That* was the intent of my question.

Clifford Heath.

[Michael Still]

California is an "at will" state. I think you'd have a hard time
getting any employer there to accept a notice period at all. They all
reserve the right to walk you out as required.

Michael

On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Clifford Heath

[Geoff Langdale]

I suspect that even if you can negotiate a longer notification period you can still be walked and paid "in lieu of notice". The extra money will be nice but I don't know whether the notice period will count as "being employed" in immigration terms.

Geoff.

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[Patrick Collins]

This is all true. To expand, re California:

most firms will pay 2-4 weeks salary (severance) if they're marching you out. I pay 2 weeks standard. It is a good signal for your other employees.

But I also know that a few firms pay no severance ever as a matter of policy. The bigger the firm the more complex their policy around severance. But they are not obliged to pay anything.

Most companies will be cheeky and ask you to give 2-4 weeks notice. But in an "at will" agreement this is not enforce-able. 

I often use the probationary period like an elongated interview. My team will routinely let someone go in the prob period if we think they're not gonna cut it in the long run. For those individuals I pay no severance. Happened last week.

Interestingly Californians seem much more accepting and understanding that their job could and might end with a moment's notice. It is like a way of life. That is "at will" employment.

I wouldn't ask for a notice period or you'll come across as naive. Even execs on $400k salaries are "at will".

The flip side is, as an employer, it really hurts when your top flight engineer accepts another job when they're mid-project and leaves on the same day. This has happened to me too. Zero loyalty cuts both ways. So employers do bend over backward to make their staff want to stay.

Additionally and on a related note, you cannot be asked to sign a non-compete. So the Aussie concept of gardening leave while a non compete expires does not exist over here. 

Other US states are different... Non competes are allowed and "at will" agreements aren't allowed. 

Complete sidebar, for those who are interested: it is well argued[1] that it is this liquid moving of the best talent, created as a result of the free market Californian employment law, that allowed Silicon Valley to become the Tech Innovation center of the US, over, say, The Boston route 128.  Route 128 should have become the center of innovation given the amazing universities and tech companies that dominated in the 60's-80's. But the best talent when disillusioned had to leave the state to avoid noncompetes if they wanted to keep working in their chosen field. So a lot of them moved to CA. I for one found this same thing frustrating about Australia. I should have been allowed to move from Fairfax to Ninemsn if I wanted, but law allowed Fairfax to uphold a 6 month non compete. So I changed industries. This didn't necessarily help the whole community, just Fairfax.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0674753402/

Regards,

Patrick

Sent from my iPhone

[Patrick Collins]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the visa needs to be valid only when you enter the country? So your I94 is more important?

In any case, unless you have to leave the country, the USCIS (visa office) will never know if you lose your job until you leave the country and try to come back in. So practically, you've got time to find another job. No?

Regards,

Patrick

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[Richard Kroon]

Overstaying a visa is an offence that tends to result in them not issuing a visa again and excludes you from the vwp. It's playing with fire.

[Elias Bizannes]

When I got my job for Vast.com, end-to-end it was a three month process. The reason it took so long, as the CEO guiltily admitted to me in one of our catchups later on, was because when you think you need to hire someone you should wait three months until you do. Sound advice and working for a startup, as a non-engineer, I think any CEO would do the same due to cautious nature of a small business.

When I got my job at Charles River Ventures, it also took three months of negotiations. Though that was more for internal politics and the conservative nature of venture firms hiring where they very rarely hire people and my role was especially sensitive given how market-facing it was.

In my contract with CRV, I had a clause in it -- at the insistence of my future boss George Zachary -- that� I have three months notice either end. So sure, California is an at-will employment environment but this all comes down to negotiation.

In terms of the 10 day rule, yes this is due to the E3 visa and I think it may extend to other visa's. Though the thing is, it's enforceable at the border and at audits -- I have heard of people who have over-stayed without being caught because at the end of the day it comes down to enforcement.

The E3 visa, like any visa, is just a travel document. It's the actual I-94 you get stamped when entering the country that is your work permit: and it theoretically, is renewed every two years from the last time you entered the country. For example, your E3 visa may expire in December 2013, but if you re-entered the US in May 2013 you are allowed to work in the US until May 2015 (assuming you don't leave the country, whereby they won't let you in as your 'travel' is controlled and tied to the visa).




Richard Kroon wrote:

Overstaying a visa is an offence that tends to result in them not issuing a visa again and excludes you from the vwp. It's playing with fire.

On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Patrick Collins <pcol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the visa needs to be valid only when you enter the country? So your I94 is more important?

In any case, unless you have to leave the country, the USCIS (visa office) will never know if you lose your job until you leave the country and try to come back in. So practically, you've got time to find another job. No?

Regards,

Patrick

Sent from my iPhone

On May 13, 2013, at 6:21 PM, Geoff Langdale <geoff.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

I suspect that even if you can negotiate a longer notification period you can still be walked and paid "in lieu of notice". The extra money will be nice but I don't know whether the notice period will count as "being employed" in immigration terms.

Geoff.

On Tuesday, 14 May 2013 08:59:16 UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 14/05/2013, at 8:27 AM, Michael Still <mi...@stillhq.com> wrote:
> The ten days isn't about your employment agreement.

No, but the notice period is. if you can wire in a four-week notification

period it gives you longer to look for work� assuming it'll be respected.

*That* was the intent of my question.

Clifford Heath.

> Its a requirement
> of the visa... E-3s are tied to an employer. If you stop being
> employed by that company your visa becomes invalid.
>
> I would be a little bit surprised if a new employer could get through
> the paperwork process in ten days. There's a new LCA required at the
> least I would think.
>
> Michael
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Clifford Heath
> <cliffor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Geoff,
>>
>> On 14/05/2013, at 7:19 AM, Geoff McQueen | AffinityLive <geoff....@affinitylive.com> wrote:

>>> � � �� The ease of hiring here is matched by the ease of firing.

>>
>> How effectively can you deal with that (extend the ten days) in your employment agreement?
>> Or does such an agreement get torn up too easily?
>>
>> Clifford Heath.
>>
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[Tom Adams]

My last experience with this (2005) was with a visa tied to a company (L-1B), and when the company went under I effectively lost my visa. That being said, I was told that because I was "white & spoke English" I wouldn't be noticed, and I'd effectively have six months to find new work. It was doubly tricky in my case because the company technically still existed & I still had a job, just no income.

Tom

On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Patrick Collins <pcol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the visa needs to be valid only when you enter the country? So your I94 is more important?

In any case, unless you have to leave the country, the USCIS (visa office) will never know if you lose your job until you leave the country and try to come back in. So practically, you've got time to find another job. No?

Regards,

Patrick

Sent from my iPhone

On May 13, 2013, at 6:21 PM, Geoff Langdale <geoff.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

I suspect that even if you can negotiate a longer notification period you can still be walked and paid "in lieu of notice". The extra money will be nice but I don't know whether the notice period will count as "being employed" in immigration terms.

Geoff.

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[Jason Seed]

Just a slight clarification, Patrick is correct about the visa's validity.

Your visa can actually expire while your right to work is renewed. This is what happens if you renew your E3 in country. 

Your work permit is extended for another 2 years which gives you a right to stay and work. However if you leave the country for any reason you need to get your visa renewed even though you have a right to work...

Separate to that regarding the amount of time that you have after you leave a job to leave the country it is actually not specified in the E3, the 10 days is just something that comes from other visas that have more data about them. 

Sent from my iPad

--

[hoops]

good point Geoff.. Been their before on h1b years ago.  quick in and out to canada -> re enter of visa waiver.   Main point is having cash to cover personal burn rate :-)

[hoops]

re at notice - its not that hard to manage.  After working with same company for 6 years ,  when the company folded in 2002 and we turned the lights out I was faced with same 10 days.   

On the flip side,  having a place and a car make life cheaper  than when you first land.  If you reenter on the visa waiver, you then have a base to work from.  I found it was the getting a place etc when you first land - that's the hard part - you are a credit ghost, and you find yourself renting cars, paying for temp accommodation and hustling with a land lord to accept you etc.  Found the East Bay more accepting than SF (too much demand in SF, so landlords are picky).   I also found you have to to drive a lot when looking for work etc ie. to fremont or meno park or san jose etc as  public transport is good in SF,  but getting around the bay it used to be crap (i assume it still is) or have they extended BART pass the air port now ?

[Owen B. Mehegan]

Just to add on to a couple of things others have said:

On visa status if/when your job disappears: to my knowledge, both E3 and H1B give you 10 days after employment ends before you need to leave the country. A friend on an H1B had to deal with this when our company laid us off in 2009.

On negotiated notice of termination, etc: personally I wouldn't even try, at least as a run of the mill software engineer. Maybe an exec would get some additional consideration, but the things others have said about "at-will" employment hold firm. For everyone here it's a way of life, nothing surprising or unusual. You come and go as you please, and the company is free to do the same. It's weirder for me to hear my wife or our Aussie friends talk about having an employment "contract." Say what?? Just make sure you vet the company as best you can, don't join anything that seems too seat-of-the-pants. And try to get a backup plan in place. Network, network, network. And yeah, as Hoops said, if things go south, as long as you've got a place to live, you can always duck out to Canada and back in, then you're on 3 months of Visa Waiver time where you can job hunt. When my wife moved back (long distance romance is lame) she came in on a Visa Waiver, and had to do one out/in trip to reset the clock. She got a job offer while at the airport for that trip, so all worked out well (she's in finance).

Finally, as Geoff McQueen said, it's a boom. It'll bust sooner or later, so my advice to anyone coming is to just keep that in mind and prepare for it. The absolute best thing you can do is network, both with your coworkers wherever you end up, and elsewhere in the industry if you can. There are lots of meetups and other social things where you can meet people. Cultivate friendships, connect on LinkedIn, and then use that tool when you need it. I've worked at seven companies in the last 15 years, and I got every one of those jobs through a referral.

For me, when the bust comes, that'll probably be when I pack up the family and head for Melbourne. So, someone keep a seat warm for me :P

On Saturday, May 11, 2013 7:47:18 AM UTC-7, hoops wrote:

[Ernest Semerda]

- Cannot get away from demand and supply in real estate. But living expenses like food & clothing are still considerably cheaper than living in Sydney.

- If you have spouse make sure they get their own visa. This way should you end up in an uncomfortable position of loosing sponsorship you can always fall back on your spouses visa as a dependent. Plan ahead.