Jobs / Vacant Positions.

[Brett | GoodBarry]

Hi All,

I thought it would be useful to start a thread to share open vacancies that any of us may have (i.e we're hiring) or have heard of.

I know Mike is perpetually hiring at Atlassian and we're in the same boat at GoodBarry, so to kick it off here's 5 positions: http://goodbarry.com/jobs

I have always found that networks are a great way to get great people. Seek.com.au leaves me with *some* good candidates, but the wheat:chaff ratio is depressing... hopefully as a community we can rake together the sort of talent that startups truly need.

Thanks guys,

Brett Welch

Australia P: +61 2 9011-1099 • D: +61 2 9011-1091 F: +61 2 9011-1098  99 Mount Street, Level 8 North Sydney NSW 2060

USA P: +1 415 345-7771  F: +1 415 345-7701  555 Post Street, Level 2 San Francisco CA 94102

br...@goodbarry.com • www.goodbarry.com • Online Businesses, Not Websites™

[Elias Bizannes]

Don't forget new Aussie startup http://2vouch.com/ who's breaking into the jobs market. :)

Elias Bizannes
http://liako.biz

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Brett | GoodBarry <br...@goodbarry.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
> I thought it would be useful to start a thread to share open vacancies that
> any of us may have (i.e we're hiring) or have heard of.
> I know Mike is perpetually hiring at Atlassian and we're in the same boat at
> GoodBarry, so to kick it off here's 5 positions: http://goodbarry.com/jobs

I don't want to be mean, but I must say, as a professional programmer,
I find calling us "ninja's" to be slightly condescending. It may get
you a certain type of programmer, and maybe that's what you're after
(younger, less experienced) but yeah. I read your ad, and am
immediately put off. Just FYI. Take it as you will. I'm not a
potential candidate anyway.

Clearly there is nothing wrong with being a Ninja in general, it's
quite cool, but it just has a condescending air to it, when it's my
career. I'm a software engineer. It's in the same vein as Guru/etc.
Seemingly a term of endearment, but it does come across as very
disrespectful.

> I have always found that networks are a great way to get great people.
> Seek.com.au leaves me with *some* good candidates, but the wheat:chaff ratio
> is depressing... hopefully as a community we can rake together the sort of
> talent that startups truly need.
> Thanks guys,

--
noon silky
http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 10:02 AM, silky <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Brett | GoodBarry <br...@goodbarry.com> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > I thought it would be useful to start a thread to share open vacancies that
> > any of us may have (i.e we're hiring) or have heard of.
> > I know Mike is perpetually hiring at Atlassian and we're in the same boat at
> > GoodBarry, so to kick it off here's 5 positions: http://goodbarry.com/jobs

I don't mean to pick on you either; I know a lot of 'startups' take
this approach; so I hope you don't take my comments personally, more
of a global comment to these new companies hiring programmers. Just
note that it may affect the type of people you get, in terms of their
experience. And attitude as well (I'd argue, less structured). But
that's possibly what you want. I'd reconsider that, personally :) Just
my opinion, of course. For what it's worth.

[Nick HaC]

In contrast to your view silky, i find the expression Ninja extremely enticing and extremely complimentary for programmers. I'd hate to see a job advert asking for pirate programmers.

2Vouch looks great - we are excited to use it for our next hire. Althought just recently we have found serveral great ppl though WOM on Twitter. Maybe there is some way to use 2Vouch and my Twitter network together? (also SocialMediaJobs.com.au has been useful but is very advery agency style)

Keep up the good work Brett - Love GoodBarry

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 10:02 AM, silky <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Nick HaC <nic...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In contrast to your view silky, i find the expression Ninja extremely
> enticing and extremely complimentary for programmers. I'd hate to see a job
> advert asking for pirate programmers.

Are you a programmer though? How long have you been one for? And what
languages? And pirates > ninja's.

> 2Vouch looks great - we are excited to use it for our next hire. Althought
> just recently we have found serveral great ppl though WOM on Twitter. Maybe
> there is some way to use 2Vouch and my Twitter network together? (also
> SocialMediaJobs.com.au has been useful but is very advery agency style)
>
> Keep up the good work Brett - Love GoodBarry

--
noon silky
http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/

[Stephen Price]

Perhaps a side effect of marketing? It's almost like when you read something that legal people have had a hand in creating. You can see they've helped write it and it makes you think "for gor's sake get to the point. what are you selling me? Stop trying to butter me up".

I see it akin to a 40 something writing an advertising blurb for a teenager. Most of the time the teenager will smell it a mile off, roll their eyes and you've lost them. Occasionally they do it right and it does speak to them. I've you've ever heard your grandmother (or even your mum) using the "right words" but it sounds wrong purely because she shouldn't be using them, then you know what I mean.

Good luck finding your people. I've got my hands full atm (which is nice, am seeing way too much doom and gloom from the world).

cheers,

Stephen

[Stephen Price]

lol

Yeah, I agree. If they are looking for pirates then they should say so. If they want pirate ninja's then sign me up, I want to be one. :)

[Riges Younan (2vouch.com)]

Thanks for the plug guys. Anyone on this list can use 2Vouch for free and only pay the referrer reward when you hire. Which for an $80k job is $1400 bucks. Just ping me of you’re interested and we’ll get that organised.

re: 2Vouch and Twitter – we are working on it. Look out for two Aussie Start-ups collaborating on that front to make it happen.

Cheers
Riges

Riges Younan
CEO | 2Vouch

+61 419 932 392 | +613 8683 0124
Suite 405, 493 St Kilda Rd |Melbourne
VIC | Australia | 3004
web: http://www.2vouch.com
blog: http://blog.2vouch.com
email: ri...@2vouch.com
skype: riges.younan
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/rigesyounan
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/rigesyounan

On 23/01/09 10:11 AM, "Nick HaC" <nic...@gmail.com> wrote:

In contrast to your view silky, i find the expression Ninja extremely enticing and extremely complimentary for programmers. I'd hate to see a job advert asking for pirate programmers.

2Vouch looks great - we are excited to use it for our next hire. Althought just recently we have found serveral great ppl though WOM on Twitter. Maybe there is some way to use 2Vouch and my Twitter network together? (also SocialMediaJobs.com.au <http://SocialMediaJobs.com.au>  has been useful but is very advery agency style)

Keep up the good work Brett - Love GoodBarry

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 10:02 AM, silky <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Brett | GoodBarry <br...@goodbarry.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
> I thought it would be useful to start a thread to share open vacancies that
> any of us may have (i.e we're hiring) or have heard of.
> I know Mike is perpetually hiring at Atlassian and we're in the same boat at
> GoodBarry, so to kick it off here's 5 positions: http://goodbarry.com/jobs

I don't want to be mean, but I must say, as a professional programmer,
I find calling us "ninja's" to be slightly condescending. It may get
you a certain type of programmer, and maybe that's what you're after
(younger, less experienced) but yeah. I read your ad, and am
immediately put off. Just FYI. Take it as you will. I'm not a
potential candidate anyway.

Clearly there is nothing wrong with being a Ninja in general, it's
quite cool, but it just has a condescending air to it, when it's my
career. I'm a software engineer. It's in the same vein as Guru/etc.
Seemingly a term of endearment, but it does come across as very
disrespectful.


> I have always found that networks are a great way to get great people.

> Seek.com.au <http://Seek.com.au>  leaves me with *some* good candidates, but the wheat:chaff ratio

[Warren Seen]

Speaking of twitter, here's a little something I knocked together this
week to aggregate hiring-related hashtags: http://hashjobs.com/

[Warren Seen]

Better a pirate or ninja than a zombie I guess. ;-)

I've never been one to take myself too seriously but I have to agree
with silky, it does seem a little juvenile and condescending when
you're on the "wrong" side of 30 and have put in the hard yards - not
all of us have feudal Japanese fantasies that you need to pander to if
you want to employ us!

[Sriram Panyam]

actually whats worse is talking to Recruitement Agents and hearing things like?

"oh you have 10 years experience in C++, but my client is looking for C"

replace with C++ and C with any <superset language> and <subset language> as fit!!

--
Blog: http://panyam.wordpress.com
URL: http://www.geocities.com/spany_1

[Warren Seen]

Or, as seen recently, 3-10(!) years of Ruby on Rails experience. I
recall a similar thing happening about 12 months after .NET was
released too.

It's an instant credibility-hit because it says that you don't really
know much about the community you're hiring from.

[Tyrone Castillo]

Worse still is 

"Oh you have 6 years experience in xxxx, we were looking 10"

I've seen many candidates get turned back who probably would have a better fit in the org than someone who has been warming the seat longer.

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Sriram Panyam <sri.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

> actually whats worse is talking to Recruitement Agents and hearing things
> like?
>
> "oh you have 10 years experience in C++, but my client is looking for C"
>
> replace with C++ and C with any <superset language> and <subset language> as
> fit!!

oh man, lets not even get started about talking about how incapable
many recruitment agents are in understanding the varying differences
between languages.

[Skribe Productions]

silky wrote:
> oh man, lets not even get started about talking about how incapable
> many recruitment agents are in understanding the varying differences
> between languages

I once asked a recruiter, who was looking for a copywriter for a large
Australian-based online retailer, what CMS the client used. They told
me that they hand coded the 20k+ pages in straight HTML using notepad. O.O

skribe

[Stephen Collins]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Tyrone Castillo
<tyrone....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Worse still is
> "Oh you have 6 years experience in xxxx, we were looking 10"
> I've seen many candidates get turned back who probably would have a better
> fit in the org than someone who has been warming the seat longer.

Frankly, and recruiting companies need to have this explicitly said to
them otherwise they don't get it, enthusiasm and fit counts for WAY
more than years doing something. It took me a long time to convince
people of this when I worked in government.

Keenness to learn. Team skills. Negotiation. All more important than
"I've done 8 years of Java coding." That 8 years may have been on
basic apps. Or in maintenance. No stretch.

We also have responsibilities as employers to provide meaningful work
and fulfilling jobs.

Have a look at this post on 21st C recruiting I recently did -
http://www.acidlabs.org/2009/01/07/the-right-stuff-attraction-engagement-retention-in-a-hyperconnected-world/

Steve
--
Stephen Collins
Cell +61 410 680722
Skype trib22
www.twitter.com/trib
www.linkedin.com/in/stephencollins

www.acidlabs.org

acidlabs
Conversation. Collaboration. Community.

This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Stephen Collins <tr...@acidlabs.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Tyrone Castillo
> <tyrone....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Worse still is
> > "Oh you have 6 years experience in xxxx, we were looking 10"
> > I've seen many candidates get turned back who probably would have a better
> > fit in the org than someone who has been warming the seat longer.
>
> Frankly, and recruiting companies need to have this explicitly said to
> them otherwise they don't get it, enthusiasm and fit counts for WAY
> more than years doing something. It took me a long time to convince
> people of this when I worked in government.
>
> Keenness to learn. Team skills. Negotiation. All more important than
> "I've done 8 years of Java coding." That 8 years may have been on
> basic apps. Or in maintenance. No stretch.

Typically it isn't though. Generally if you spend 8 years doing
something you advance. All this is observed in the resume; which, you
know, you should read. Look at how they've advanced and what sort of
things they've worked on.

Enthusiasm and Fit are good, but if the guy just can't program, then
he's no good as a programmer. Maybe he can do something else, but not
programming. Unsurprisingly, an ability to program is a key part of
being a programmer :D

> We also have responsibilities as employers to provide meaningful work
> and fulfilling jobs.
>
> Have a look at this post on 21st C recruiting I recently did -

Frankly I'm not going to read a blog-post to continue a discussion on
a mailing list. Re-make your points here or don't make them at all.
Let's not just send links to each other, because basically it's a just
a form of self-advertisement; which I'm sure is critical to your
career, but not to mine. And I'm not interested in it.

> Steve
> --
> Stephen Collins
> Cell +61 410 680722
> Skype trib22
> www.twitter.com/trib
> www.linkedin.com/in/stephencollins
>
> www.acidlabs.org
>
> acidlabs
> Conversation. Collaboration. Community.
>
> This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private

--
noon silky
http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/

[Stephen Collins]

Noon

I get your points, but I think the crankiness isn't a prerequisite. It
just makes you look snarky and intolerant.

I linked to my post as an indicator as to where some of the thinking
(including mine) is going. Up to you whether you read it. I don't much
mind.

And yes, you're right. Skills are necessary. But as someone who has in
the past run big (20+) dev (back and front end) teams in more than one
organisation, my point is that in my experience working in this
industry since 1995 you'll get better value from someone who has
skills *and* enthusiasm - demonstrated by involvement beyond just
sitting at their desk - than from someone who just sits there and may
not extend themselves. Time, while a factor, is rarely the determining
factor.

Steve

[Nick HaC]

Silky - mate this forum is full of smart and influential people, many of which have had significantly more experience and success than both of us.

Stephen Collins is a well known and well respected community member with deep and broad commercial experience - who you have now openly disregarded in public. Stephen blog, twitter profile and his online influence would be in the top 10 or 100 (depending which measure you take) of Australian media, technology and marketing people. IMO that gives him solid reason to use his blog posts as a reference point.

We all appreciate the sharing of a diverse array of opinions and experiences and that helps us find the truth, but i would counsel you that you can will more value from this community by working with this community and not against the people in it.

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Nick HaC <nic...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Silky - mate this forum is full of smart and influential people, many of
> which have had significantly more experience and success than both of us.

Sure? I'm still entitled to my opinion.

> Stephen Collins is a well known and well respected community member with
> deep and broad commercial experience - who you have now openly disregarded
> in public.

Yep. You're correct.

> Stephen blog, twitter profile and his online influence would be
> in the top 10 or 100 (depending which measure you take) of Australian media,
> technology and marketing people. IMO that gives him solid reason to use his
> blog posts as a reference point.

*shrug*, maybe you value his opinion more then me. That's fine. I just
think all comments should be made in one place (the email) rather than
pushing people to other - self advertising - areas. I won't.
Regardless, it's hardly that big of a deal. It's just a
readability/discussionability thing. I can't respond to his blog post
here.

> We all appreciate the sharing of a diverse array of opinions and experiences
> and that helps us find the truth, but i would counsel you that you can will
> more value from this community by working with this community and not
> against the people in it.

I can't imagine what is wrong with lively/friendly debate. That's all
I'm engaging in.

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:56 AM, silky <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]

> > We all appreciate the sharing of a diverse array of opinions and experiences
> > and that helps us find the truth, but i would counsel you that you can will
> > more value from this community by working with this community and not
> > against the people in it.
>
> I can't imagine what is wrong with lively/friendly debate. That's all
> I'm engaging in.

And FWIW, I'm not going to change my personality based on who's
listening. I'll be myself, and if you don't like me, sure fine, I
don't mind, but if you do, then also fine. I'm not going to act
differently just to be 'friends' with a few 'influential' people. I'd
prefer to be myself and make useful contacts in that fashion.

At least that way you know that when you're dealing with me it's me;
it's not a facade or a trick to try and get your money or earn your
trust to take something from you. It's just me.

[Warren Seen]

> At least that way you know that when you're dealing with me it's me;
> it's not a facade or a trick to try and get your money or earn your
> trust to take something from you. It's just me.

Now there's an interesting comment on "authenticity" which everyone
always bangs on about in "social media"...

I'll admit I haven't had much to do with you silky, and in the past
I've found some of your comments I've read on this list to be abrupt
bordering on dismissive of others. Obviously that's just you though,
so kudos for "keeping it real" or whatever the hell it is the kids
these days say.

And it's a nice segue back to the topic of job ads and whether
employers actually treat their developers like rockstars, gurus or
ninjas once you get them in the door and on the payroll?

[Andrew Boyd]

Silky,

I think that opinions are valued - perhaps it is the smarmy and catty
delivery of those opinions that people were objecting to. They are not
in keeping with the great spirit of cooperation that I've seem on this
list.

Best regards, Andrew

Andrew Boyd fac...@gmail.com
http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss

[Michael Specht]

You guys have been having all the fun while I have been away from my PC to
answer fully. I consider myself reasonable well versed in recruitment so
this is a fascinating discussion.

The language in the job ad is critical for attracting the right candidate
and needs to ensure they fit with your culture. The example here using the
word ninja is a great one. I suspect that GoodBarry (I have no idea of their
culture so this is a guess) want someone for that particular role who
relates with being a Ninja, so if you don't like the term then the role is
probably not for you.

Now recruiters are a different topic. 80%-90% of recruiters are
transactional based, ie they get paid for placing a candidate they advertise
on Seek and have little knowledge of the industry. Then there is the rest,
your search and selection, headhunters if you will. They exist both inside
organisations and in agencies. These are the guys you want to work with,
both from an employer and job seeker. In Melbourne Charles Young (@cmyoung)
and Georgie Carpenter (@goergierecruits) are the search & selection type, in
Sydney you have the Happener boys.

BTW a job thread here is great.

Rgds
Michael
PS I have an eBook on this stuff for purchase as well, sorry Noony I
couldn't help it ;-).


Michael Specht
Principal Consultant



Phone: +61 3 9017 1865 | Mobile: 0418 212 041 | Skype: mspecht
Email: mic...@inspecht.com.au Web: inspecht.com.au

Want to know the latest trends in HR, Recruitment and Technology?
Attend the Inspecht HR Futures Conference

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Andrew Boyd <fac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Silky,
>
> I think that opinions are valued - perhaps it is the smarmy and catty
> delivery of those opinions that people were objecting to. They are not
> in keeping with the great spirit of cooperation that I've seem on this
> list.

I don't believe I did that though; I was just saying that his
reference to his blog post was mostly promotional, and secondarily
informational. I'm happy to see and read the information (here, in
this list) and respond, in context, but if it's about promotion, I'm
not interested. I consider it "rude" to hide promotion, so I responded
in an "abrupt" manner, trying to cut it off.

> Best regards, Andrew
>
> Andrew Boyd fac...@gmail.com
> http://uxbookclub.org -- connect, read, discuss

--
noon silky
http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Michael Specht <msp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You guys have been having all the fun while I have been away from my PC to
> answer fully. I consider myself reasonable well versed in recruitment so
> this is a fascinating discussion.
>
> The language in the job ad is critical for attracting the right candidate
> and needs to ensure they fit with your culture. The example here using the
> word ninja is a great one. I suspect that GoodBarry (I have no idea of their
> culture so this is a guess) want someone for that particular role who
> relates with being a Ninja, so if you don't like the term then the role is
> probably not for you.

That's what I was trying to highlight. I was just trying to show that
experienced people won't enjoy being called a "Ninja". Younger kids,
python/ruby/php types may like it, but it doesn't sit well with me. I
was just trying to make sure that was clear.

> Now recruiters are a different topic. 80%-90% of recruiters are
> transactional based, ie they get paid for placing a candidate they advertise
> on Seek and have little knowledge of the industry. Then there is the rest,
> your search and selection, headhunters if you will. They exist both inside
> organisations and in agencies. These are the guys you want to work with,
> both from an employer and job seeker. In Melbourne Charles Young (@cmyoung)
> and Georgie Carpenter (@goergierecruits) are the search & selection type, in
> Sydney you have the Happener boys.
>
> BTW a job thread here is great.
>
> Rgds
> Michael
> PS I have an eBook on this stuff for purchase as well, sorry Noony I
> couldn't help it ;-).

No probs; I'll trade you one eBook for one Box of Good Feelings :D

> Michael Specht
> Principal Consultant
>
> Phone: +61 3 9017 1865 | Mobile: 0418 212 041 | Skype: mspecht
> Email: mic...@inspecht.com.au Web: inspecht.com.au
>
> Want to know the latest trends in HR, Recruitment and Technology?
> Attend the Inspecht HR Futures Conference

--
noon silky
http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/

[Warren Seen]

> The language in the job ad is critical for attracting the right candidate
> and needs to ensure they fit with your culture. The example here using the
> word ninja is a great one. I suspect that GoodBarry (I have no idea of their
> culture so this is a guess) want someone for that particular role who
> relates with being a Ninja, so if you don't like the term then the role is
> probably not for you.

I guess we software developers are sensitive to labelling -
self-identification or peer identification are one thing, but when it
comes from someone outside of the group, it often comes off as
contrived. I can think of plenty of other cultures where there are
terms which are verboten to those outside the group...

As for fitting the existing culture - my opinion is this: if any org
writes a job ad or position description and doesn't check to see
whether it would catch the eye of their existing developers, they've
got rocks in their head. This would also pick up the glaringly obvious
mistakes that make the advertisers look stupid, like asking for more
experience in a technology than is even possible, etc.

[Michael Specht]

Warren you would be surprised how many organisations don't check labelling &
culture when they do job ads. It is so surprising!

Michael Specht
Principal Consultant



Phone: +61 3 9017 1865 | Mobile: 0418 212 041 | Skype: mspecht
Email: mic...@inspecht.com.au Web: inspecht.com.au

Want to know the latest trends in HR, Recruitment and Technology?
Attend the Inspecht HR Futures Conference


-----Original Message-----
From: silicon-bea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:silicon-bea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Warren Seen
Sent: Friday, 23 January 2009 12:42 PM
To: silicon-bea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [SiliconBeach] Re: Jobs / Vacant Positions.

[Ryan Cross]

HI,

Following this list/group for awhile, but first time posting to this list, I'll do the quick intro. My name is Ryan Cross and I'm a trained engineer (Mechanical & Comp Sci) waiting for the results on my robotics degree. However, I get paid by running my own consulting company in web development and project management, mostly with alot of open source software.

Anyways, I would just like to say that I think this discussion of recruiting and job descriptions is really interesting. However, I would discourage the use of this list to post job openings, or at least at least keep them pretty rare. This is already a very active list, and I think job ads would dilute the benefit of it and would put people off.

That said, I know Elias & Geoff are working on putting together a website for the community and I've offered to help them build it. I think that could be an ideal place to put job posts (or advertise your skills). Hopefully it is something that can be built sooner rather than later. I think there is also some need to get some input on the direction/goals of the website from the community. This probably spins off into a different thread, but just wanted to throw that out there.

Thanks,
Ryan Cross

[Craig]

> > In contrast to your view silky, i find the expression Ninja extremely
> > enticing and extremely complimentary for programmers. I'd hate to see a job
> > advert asking for pirate programmers.
>
> Are you a programmer though? How long have you been one for? And what
> languages? And pirates > ninja's.
>

I am a programmer for 15 years (professionally) and think the ninja
term really describes well what they are after. What they don't want
is people who have spent the last 10 years building data warehouses
for banks and who's home computer is still a 486. What they do want is
people who are up to all hours every night obsessing over whether to
use jQuery or Prototype for their new RoR project they are about to
begin while sucking down Red Bull while they squeeze out that last
line (or 1000) of code for the night. It sounds quite appealing to me
(if the money is right).

Craig.

[Warren Seen]

> What they do want is
> people who are up to all hours every night obsessing over whether to
> use jQuery or Prototype for their new RoR project they are about to
> begin while sucking down Red Bull while they squeeze out that last
> line (or 1000) of code for the night. It sounds quite appealing to me
> (if the money is right).

What's wrong with saying that, rather than trying to sex it up and
sound cool with terms like rockstar, ninja, guru, etc? I identify more
with that description than with the title "ninja" or anything like
that.

As for the money, let's face it, most of the people who are trying to
hire rockstars don't have more than session muso budgets... ;-)

[silky]

hahahaha. nice :D

[Craig]

>
> What's wrong with saying that, rather than trying to sex it up and
> sound cool with terms like rockstar, ninja, guru, etc? I identify more
> with that description than with the title "ninja" or anything like
> that.
>

Because the people who they want like being called rockstar or ninja.
If you don't then you are probably not the right person for the job.

Craig.

[Kevin Littlejohn]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 12:30 PM, silky <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's what I was trying to highlight. I was just trying to show that
experienced people won't enjoy being called a "Ninja". Younger kids,
python/ruby/php types may like it, but it doesn't sit well with me. I
was just trying to make sure that was clear.

I've been trying to find the right email to chip in on this with my 2c worth - this is as good as any.

We employ about 9 developers now.  When we advertise, we jazz up the adverts a bit - try to reflect that we're a casual, agile environment rather than a large corporate - but I would never advertise looking for "code ninjas".  Why? Because I prefer to get coders who are good, but who understand the importance of design, documentation, and maintenance; and who are good at working in a team.

To me, Ninja coders suggests you want someone that'll throw a heap of code at a problem, often by themselves, in a short time.  For long-term projects, though, I'd rather get coders that will take a bit longer, do the design work, and spend time discussing their designs and their code with our other coders.  There's nothing worse than a single coder running away with a single problem and coming back with screeds of code that may or may not fit and be maintainable, or that may be "clever code" and thus near-unmaintainable.

Yes, some of this is a rant, and yes, some of it's from experience.  Basically, though, ninja coders says to me you're either looking for someone who'll put in many more hours than you'll pay for to build something in a hurry that may not be maintainable long-term; or that you haven't yet been burnt by this stuff yourself and still value "clever" coders over thorough ones (or maybe don't have the skills to evaluate the difference).

(Oh, and as you might be able to tell, the idea of a coder "squeezing out the last 1000 lines of code late at night while sucking down red bull" scares the bejeesus out of me - I've seen what I (and other, better coders) produce under those circumstances.  While it may feel good to write, it's not the best environment for building _solid_ code - and anyone who prefers to work that way makes me suspicious straight-up.)

YMMV ;)

KevinL

[Nathan de Vries]

On 23/01/2009, at 12:30 PM, silky wrote:
> Younger kids, python/ruby/php types may like it, but it doesn't sit
> well with me.

You needed to add "GET OFF MY LAWN, YA YOUNG WHIPPER-SNAPPERS!" to
complete the image. So close.

Out of interest, what do you think of GoodBarry's website & corporate
image in general? Do you think it's childish and unprofessional? You
said you wouldn't dream of acting any differently to your normal self
on this mailing list, perhaps the same can be said for GoodBarry and
their corporate identity? Not only are their job advertisements
playful, so is their entire website! While that might seem abrasive to
you, it gels very well with me ( pity I'm not a .NET developer ;-) ).

I think we just belong to different generations - I belong to a newer
generation of "developer" who don't really mind what we're called.
"Software engineer" certainly doesn't describe what I do, since if
that's all I did then why would I be subscribe to a startup and
business-focused mailing list? It's hard to imagine vibrant young
companies wanting "software engineers" anymore; they can just as
easily find themselves someone who's creative and technically /
business savvy.

Cheers,

Nathan de Vries // nathandevries.com

[Warren Seen]

> Out of interest, what do you think of GoodBarry's website & corporate
> image in general? Do you think it's childish and unprofessional? You
> said you wouldn't dream of acting any differently to your normal self
> on this mailing list, perhaps the same can be said for GoodBarry and
> their corporate identity? Not only are their job advertisements
> playful, so is their entire website! While that might seem abrasive to
> you, it gels very well with me ( pity I'm not a .NET developer ;-) ).

I know this wasn't aimed at me but what I'd say is that if they're
consistent to the point where the actual position description,
business cards or org chart show "code ninja" then sure, I'll buy it!
If not, it's just marketing isn't it?

In the case of GoodBarry, I don't find it a complete turn off because
it seems consistent with the image they present, but I'd guess they're
an exception, not the rule. Other cases where the job ads don't mesh
with the public image of the company, it just comes off as more
recruiter wank-speak.

[Michael Specht]

A great example of culture & job ad mismatch was one I found last year
research employer branding. Virgin Mobile prides itself on its culture, in
fact the HR manager has been interviewed say that cultural fit makes up 40%
of the hiring decision. Digging through some job ad's I found one for a BA
at Virgin, so I went to check it out. I was presented with the Optus job
site. Now the culture of Optus & Virgin are very different, even though
Optus owns Virgin Mobile.

Rgds
Michael

Michael Specht
Principal Consultant



Phone: +61 3 9017 1865 | Mobile: 0418 212 041 | Skype: mspecht
Email: mic...@inspecht.com.au Web: inspecht.com.au

Want to know the latest trends in HR, Recruitment and Technology?
Attend the Inspecht HR Futures Conference

-----Original Message-----
From: silicon-bea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:silicon-bea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Warren Seen
Sent: Friday, 23 January 2009 4:04 PM
To: silicon-bea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [SiliconBeach] Re: Jobs / Vacant Positions.

[Nathan de Vries]

On 23/01/2009, at 4:03 PM, Warren Seen wrote:

I know this wasn't aimed at me but what I'd say is that if they're
consistent to the point where the actual position description,
business cards or org chart show "code ninja" then sure, I'll buy it!

You can't honestly mean that if a company advertises for a "code ninja", then every mention of that role *must* be consistent with the original advertisement or they've somehow failed. I can see it now; "Certified <Brand Name> Code Ninja™ required - suit, tie, and pointy-hair mandatory".

Is "consistency" such an important thing? We should pride ourselves on being laid back - we're on the beach, after all.

[Warren Seen]

What? :-p

It was such a reductio ad absurdum kind of argument i thought people
would realise i was taking the piss.

Nevertheless consistency is important if you're advertising for role A
but then want to cram them into role B. You can be laid back without
pandering to some kid's ego by calling him a ninja, rockstar, whatever
when you don't really plan on treating him like that.

[Glen Maddern]

I gotta agree here - there's really nothing ninja about it. Unless you
commit code with smoke bombs, and rollback by jumping backwards on to
a roof. :)

Mind you, I honestly find the 'standard' position titles a little
ambiguous, as well.

So yes, 'ninja' irks me a bit. But i'm glad it's not coming from a
recruiter, or a company like microsoft (source fource, anyone?)

-glen

[Andrew Boyd]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Craig <cra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Because the people who they want like being called rockstar or ninja.
If you don't then you are probably not the right person for the job.

Appropriate cultural fit is important - I know a couple of people on this list that used to work for the same consulting firm that I did, and throughout the long entry interview process cultural fit was constantly being assessed along with technical/people skills and saleability.   

There is an element of "If you have to ask, you'll never know" to it which is probably more art than science, although HR professionals might know of some way of reliably doing this that goes beyond voodoo psychographic testing :)

Cheers, Andrew

--
---
Andrew Boyd

[Warren Seen]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Glen Maddern <gle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I gotta agree here - there's really nothing ninja about it. Unless you
> commit code with smoke bombs, and rollback by jumping backwards on to
> a roof. :)

i think this is somewhat apropos: http://xkcd.com/486/ :-)

[Stephen Price]

Love it.

 

I'd just like to chip in here about Silky. (In response to someone telling him off). I'm guessing here but a few people who read Silky's emails take offence to them. I know Silky from another elist (never met him in real life, but I look forward to the day. I think I shall hug him).

Now I know Silky probably doesn't need me to step in to defend him or anything but meh. Silky comes across as a blunt, tactless, opinionated, righteous, know it all who doesn't care what anyone thinks. He's awesome, and a fresh breath of air in an otherwise stale online world. He says it how he sees it and doesn't apoligise for existing. He owns his place on the planet. We could all learn something from him. (note: Tact and subtlety are not among the list of somethings.)

For those here who take offence to what Silky says, remember he's just doing what hes doing. You are the one who is taking offence to what he is saying. How could you be responsible for that? :)

Perhaps you need to go and take a big long hard look at yourself. Life is not that serious, there's no evidence to support that it is. Grin and move on, he's just being self expressed. I admire him for it. And for the record, people who I've met who say they have met him in real life say he's a nice guy and nothing like how he comes across online. :) Oh, and he really knows his stuff. Very smart guy.

nuff said. we return you to your regular programming. :)

 

cheers,

Stephen

[Andrew Boyd]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Stephen Price <ste...@littlevoices.com> wrote:

Love it.

 

I'd just like to chip in here about Silky. (In response to someone telling him off). I'm guessing here but a few people who read Silky's emails take offence to them. I know Silky from another elist (never met him in real life, but I look forward to the day. I think I shall hug him).

Now I know Silky probably doesn't need me to step in to defend him or anything but meh. Silky comes across as a blunt, tactless, opinionated, righteous, know it all who doesn't care what anyone thinks. He's awesome, and a fresh breath of air in an otherwise stale online world. He says it how he sees it and doesn't apoligise for existing. He owns his place on the planet. We could all learn something from him. (note: Tact and subtlety are not among the list of somethings.)

For those here who take offence to what Silky says, remember he's just doing what hes doing. You are the one who is taking offence to what he is saying. How could you be responsible for that? :)

Perhaps you need to go and take a big long hard look at yourself. Life is not that serious, there's no evidence to support that it is. Grin and move on, he's just being self expressed. I admire him for it. And for the record, people who I've met who say they have met him in real life say he's a nice guy and nothing like how he comes across online. :) Oh, and he really knows his stuff. Very smart guy.

nuff said. we return you to your regular programming. :)

 

cheers,

Stephen

Hi Stephen,

I'd just like to add that the guy he jumped all over (with little cause) is a good friend of mine also knows his stuff - and who lost an immediate family member to cancer a couple of days back - for something (quoting a URL) that I do myself. I am not sure that this is a case of over-reaction - if it were any other list, I would probably have gone out of my way to be specifically and deliberately offensive.

Cheers, Andrew

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Nathan de Vries <nat...@atnan.com> wrote:
> On 23/01/2009, at 12:30 PM, silky wrote:
> > Younger kids, python/ruby/php types may like it, but it doesn't sit
> > well with me.
>
> You needed to add "GET OFF MY LAWN, YA YOUNG WHIPPER-SNAPPERS!" to
> complete the image. So close.

Damn! I knew I was forgetting something.

> Out of interest, what do you think of GoodBarry's website & corporate
> image in general? Do you think it's childish and unprofessional? You
> said you wouldn't dream of acting any differently to your normal self
> on this mailing list, perhaps the same can be said for GoodBarry and
> their corporate identity? Not only are their job advertisements
> playful, so is their entire website! While that might seem abrasive to
> you, it gels very well with me ( pity I'm not a .NET developer ;-) ).

Don't get me wrong; I wasn't really being too critical of their target
audience; I just wanted to make sure that they *KNEW* by using the
word "Ninja" it *limits* them to that audience. That I was
specifically turned away. I'm not saying their audience doesn't have
their place, and that their childish and unprofessional (though, I do
partially think that deep-down, and may have slightly mentioned it
later :D

> I think we just belong to different generations - I belong to a newer
> generation of "developer" who don't really mind what we're called.

Maybe, but I wouldn't be surprised if we're the same age. Or pretty
close. Though I am sort of getting old I guess ...

> "Software engineer" certainly doesn't describe what I do, since if
> that's all I did then why would I be subscribe to a startup and
> business-focused mailing list? It's hard to imagine vibrant young
> companies wanting "software engineers" anymore; they can just as
> easily find themselves someone who's creative and technically /
> business savvy.

Sure; but I don't think "Ninja" covers what you do :) I'm the same, I
have interests outside engineering; but if I was taking a *job* (not
running my own business) "Ninja" wouldn't cut it for *me*.

> Cheers,
>
> Nathan de Vries // nathandevries.com

--
noon silky
http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:37 PM, Andrew Boyd <fac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Stephen Price <ste...@littlevoices.com>

> I'd just like to add that the guy he jumped all over (with little cause) is
> a good friend of mine also knows his stuff - and who lost an immediate
> family member to cancer a couple of days back

Sad to hear it. I'm sure we're all got stories of how cancer has affected us.

> - for something (quoting a
> URL) that I do myself. I am not sure that this is a case of over-reaction -
> if it were any other list, I would probably have gone out of my way to be
> specifically and deliberately offensive.
>
> Cheers, Andrew

--
noon silky
http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/

[Stephen Price]

Sorry to hear about his loss. :(

Hmm.. that's spooky. Google put a link at the top of my Google Apps page linking to "Conflict Resolution". 

Perhaps we should moderate the list? Can't have people posting inappropriate content that offends people and that breaks the list rules, can we. Oh wait, isn't that what the clean feed will take care of? ;)

[silky]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Stephen Price <ste...@littlevoices.com> wrote:
> Love it.
>
> I'd just like to chip in here about Silky. (In response to someone telling
> him off). I'm guessing here but a few people who read Silky's emails take
> offence to them. I know Silky from another elist (never met him in real
> life, but I look forward to the day. I think I shall hug him).
> Now I know Silky probably doesn't need me to step in to defend him or
> anything but meh. Silky comes across as a blunt, tactless, opinionated,
> righteous, know it all who doesn't care what anyone thinks. He's awesome,
> and a fresh breath of air in an otherwise stale online world. He says it how
> he sees it and doesn't apoligise for existing. He owns his place on the
> planet. We could all learn something from him
>

> (note: Tact and subtlety are not among the list of somethings.)

I laughed out loud at this.

> For those here who take offence to what Silky says, remember he's just doing
> what hes doing. You are the one who is taking offence to what he is saying.
> How could you be responsible for that? :)
> Perhaps you need to go and take a big long hard look at yourself. Life is
> not that serious, there's no evidence to support that it is. Grin and move
> on, he's just being self expressed. I admire him for it. And for the record,
> people who I've met who say they have met him in real life say he's a nice
> guy and nothing like how he comes across online. :) Oh, and he really knows
> his stuff. Very smart guy.
> nuff said. we return you to your regular programming. :)

Man .. Stephen ... your money is in the red letter box ... *wink* *wink*

> cheers,
> Stephen

[dekrazee1]

Hey all.

Been following the discussion all day, and only noticed now that
hackles are being raised. Frankly, I don't see what the fuss is
about.
I see the point of dropping the link in, and I also see the point of
keeping the convo flowing in here.

This was just a regular discussion imo. What I wouldn't want to see is
people taking sides and the discussion turning into something
completely unrelated to the subject matter. It's kept on track thus
far, so let's keep it that way. I'm sure there is room here for all in
here, tones, opinions and ninjas included (what with the cloud n
everything.) (Hang on... Google does 'cloud' doesn't it? :-s) </n00bie
moment>

Ok ok, back to Brett's initial post and Ryan's response to it-
I don't see why we can't have a positions vacant thread in here. I see
the value of having a separate jobs board for people looking to hire/
be hired.
I also see the value of putting a line out in here. Higher chance of
referrals or introductions happening via messages in here, vs a jobs
board. I mean, how many of us would look at a separate site if we
weren't in the market ourselves? A quick word here brings it to our
attentions.

'Nuf talkin. Back to the cricket and tennis.

Have a great weekend all!
Rai

[Ryan Cross]

Hi Rai, 

If people decide they do want to keep posting jobs in the list, might I suggest a little limitation then. 

On another list I am on, people sometimes posts lists of things they have to sell or rooms for rent or whatever. For some people on the list (that are in the market) they are useful posts, but for others it feels like spam and increases the signal-to-noise ratio which reduces the impact of the list over time. SO, what they have done is basically implemented a policy that each person is allowed one "advertising" post per year. The list remains unmoderated, so its basically a self-regulated policy and it only needs a reminder once in awhile or if there is some abuse. 

It works pretty well for that list and I would suggest something similar here. Though, I still feel there is enough need that a dedicated board would be helpful. 

Cheers, 

Ryan 

[Kim Heras]

Haha - look what you've done, Brett!

Just caught up on this thread - made me laugh - glad to see a bit of
controversy in the scene for once. Gives me something to write about
at TechNation. Keep it up :P

Seriously though, didn't realise that a simple word would cause so
much drama. I've learnt a lot about coders from this thread.

Finally re: posting jobs here - I don't see why there's a need to
reinvent the wheel. Why would you build a new, inferior job board (in
my mind, posting job listings in a forum is far from the ideal forum)
when there are already good options that we could use that would
support local startups, rather than undermine them.

For instance:

- We could use 2Vouch - www.2vouch.com (as has already been mentioned
here). Riges has been a great supporter of the local startup community
and deserves to be supported in return

- If you want a less formal job board, why not use Jobreel - www.jobreel.com.au
- Alex North (the founder) is a serial entrepreneur (tiinker, gasbag
etc.) and Google employee. He's great technically and understands the
commercial side of startups as well. That makes him just the type of
person we should be supporting.

If the issue is one of aggregation, there are services like Jobfeedr,
which could be used (again started by a kick-ass Aussie team of serial
entrepreneurs, Dale Hurley and Mike Nicholls, an industry vet).

I'll leave the technical details to the technical people, but my point
here is that I thought the goal of Silicon Beach was to support the
local tech startup industry, not to grow Silicon Beach. Hopefully we
can do both, but let's keep our eye on the main prize.

Feel me?


Kim Heras
Editor
TechNation Australia
www.technation.com.au

[dekrazee1]

Completely agree Kim.
It was a point I meant to bring up earlier, but it slipped my mind.
There are tools and resources out there for exactly these kinds of
things, why not just use those?

Ryan, I understand your reservations. Such posts have been made here
over the life of the group, and thus far they haven't lead to a
barrage as such. I'm confident SB Group members are capable of using
the list as a targeted resource.
(Also, most (if not all) of us here are connected irl somehow, so I
don't anticipate some of the usual issues lists like these tend to
face.)

Rai

On Jan 24, 1:00 am, Kim Heras <gee...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Haha - look what you've done, Brett!
>
> Just caught up on this thread - made me laugh - glad to see a bit of
> controversy in the scene for once. Gives me something to write about
> at TechNation. Keep it up :P
>
> Seriously though, didn't realise that a simple word would cause so
> much drama. I've learnt a lot about coders from this thread.
>
> Finally re: posting jobs here - I don't see why there's a need to
> reinvent the wheel. Why would you build a new, inferior job board (in
> my mind, posting job listings in a forum is far from the ideal forum)
> when there are already good options that we could use that would
> support local startups, rather than undermine them.
>
> For instance:
>

> - We could use 2Vouch -www.2vouch.com(as has already been mentioned

[Brett | GoodBarry]

Interesting and entirely unintended discussion here, which I would love to continue over a few beers with you all. It'd be a fun and lively debate :)

Kim, Rai, Ryan:

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I just felt it'd be useful to have a thread that kept people in the loop about jobs available, and not because i'm trying to recruit you directly (necessarily, all apps welcome hehe).

The usefulness of this comes when your poor mate calls you in a week's time and says "Dammit Google made me redundant!" you can say "hey well you know that GoodBarry and Atlassian and startupxyz and startupabc are all hiring man, you should take a look."

I'm not suggesting we start a job board - I'm suggesting we just keep each other informed of vacant positions, sort of an FYI. Why? Because I probably wouldn't go to jobreel or seek or 2vouch looking for jobs for people, and neither would you - we're all busy people. But if you got an email or saw a post once every now and then telling you which startups in australia are hiring... you would be able to help others out when the time came. That's what a community does.

Anyways, I suggest we park this discussion there and leave it for another time. 

I might get in touch with the guys at 2vouch, which looks like a cool service, so thanks for the suggestion.

I hope you all have a great long weekend and a happy Australia day! 

Brett Welch

br...@goodbarry.com • www.goodbarry.com • Online Businesses, Not Websites™

[mmp1]

Ninja in coding may well be becoming the new "dude" (or is that the
new cobol)

apparently even the data portability guys are using it !!!!

- from the "join the conversation" video - "standards ninjas". Are
they your normal ninjas (swords etc) or do they also know javascript ?

personally , i kinda get it - i think it is meant to bring to mind the
idea of a group of "coders" that have spent years perfecting some
secret art and lets face it, until recently doing any of the web 2.0
type stuff we see everywhere today on ALL browsers was a secret art
(ie. pre prototype or jquery etc) - hence the term Javascript ninjas
(where i think it started) and it has mainly been in reference to
javascript ( or should that have been DOM-ninjas ?).

Anyway, i think the term is spreading. first world recession, now an
invasion of ninjas. what next ?

my 2 cents - its just a term. it comes , it goes. it could be worse.
(its not like we have any other pointless FLA's/ TLA's or made up
terms in our industry say like DCOM, or COM, .NET, JSP, JSF , CORBA,
EJB , ORB , PHP etc).

[Alex North]

I tend to agree with Brett. I try to keep my finger on the pulse of who's hiring what in Australian startups and I find at least half of the tips through mailing lists or forums etc. Email gets pushed to me without the effort of going to check another website (tho Jobreel and no doubt 2vouch do email notification too).

If we could keep it to just one thread (well, maybe a new one after this) I think it could be useful and unobstrusive.

Which reminds me: Jobreel was an interesting experiment but it's clear to me now that Australia doesn't have the critial mass of new technology jobs/seekers and or the exposure of something like Joel Spolsky or 37 Signals is necessary to make it work. We have no intention now of ever charging for the service. Does anyone have ideas about how we could make it more useful to the Silicon Beach crew? Crazy ideas encouraged! It's currently languishing below the tipping point needed to make it worthwhile.

Cheers,
Alex

[Elias Bizannes]

The mailing list is not the solution. Not just because I want to support other existing intiatives, but because we can do it a lot smarter. And because I'm a semantic web, data portability, light-weight biased kind of guy - I think we could easily build this with an innovative approach.

My idea about a silicon beach distributed database (SBADD) which has been discussed previously here, could easily be applied in this situation.

The idea at core is about
- The data being stored on other people's websites, not a central database (although the latter would be needed and is more for convinience, as the web of data is not a perfect concept yet)
- Through scrapping, a ping service, or some SPARQL'y way an aggregator can query this distributed data set
- a central 'owned by the community' aggregator sits on siliconbeachaustralia.org to use it in the absense of anything else. Of course, because it's distributed data, non-community initiatives can take advantage of the same data and repurpose it (like for example, 2Vouch).

In the case of flagging available jobs,
- Aussieoioioi.com puts a bit of semantically rich meta content on their "we're hiring" page
- the SBADD aggregator picks it up and can also flag the people at that company. Because SBADD is a distributed social network (think DiSO), it also knows that guys like John Banana's likes to attend Barcamp - and so it allows people to hone in on people they need to meet.

It's a simple idea using existing technology that can very easily be extended. Sure, we can add other things to extend the functionality, but think less about a technology tool and more about the data. Decentralised data is a concept that is a very powerful way to do things.


Elias Bizannes
http://liako.biz