PARA MOTOR TAKES OFF AT 0720 FROM BISHOPS HILL - NO PROBLEM BUT...

[K21 K21]

As the title says paramotor bimbles along on his/her way no probs ,any launches out of Portmoak @ that time possibly/likley a areotow for wave flying at that time and visible. But later on Sat 11 Aug 18 the day when the west wind was weak a lime green para glider sail was a major problem, up and down and all over why is it considered that a gliding site that has been there for many years is a good choice for a para glider, we will be struggling to fly the ridge in those conditions, we might not see you, the early solo pilot might not see  you. Basic air safety suggest that gliders deconflict from para gliders, we do have to give way to you but we need to see you first and give us a chance to avoid.

[Daan van Aalten]

Hi

Thanks for your message. Lots of us in this group regularly fly at Bishop and are keen to do so in a responsible way - we are well aware it is also a

glider site. Your message could be taken to indicate an (almost) incident / annoying behaviour - however without proper use of punctuation it was difficult to deciper, and in general it was quite confusing. For instance, your title suggests a paraMOTOR, whereas the rest of your text seems to imply

a paraGLIDER. Furthermore, it is not clear if you encountered the green "sail" in front of the ridge, in which case it is indeed entirely your responsibility to avoid, or close to/over the airfield, where it shouldn't have been flying. Can you please provide further details in better language?

best wishes

Daan

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 7:10 AM, K21 K21 <dovet...@gmail.com> wrote:

As the title says paramotor bimbles along on his/her way no probs ,any launches out of Portmoak @ that time possibly/likley a areotow for wave flying at that time and visible. But later on Sat 11 Aug 18 the day when the west wind was weak a lime green para glider sail was a major problem, up and down and all over why is it considered that a gliding site that has been there for many years is a good choice for a para glider, we will be struggling to fly the ridge in those conditions, we might not see you, the early solo pilot might not see  you. Basic air safety suggest that gliders deconflict from para gliders, we do have to give way to you but we need to see you first and give us a chance to avoid.

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[Bertie Davel]

Hi there,

I believe that you refer to me/my glider in your email.  I'm sorry to hear that my presence there caused a problem there. It is a bit baffling though seeing that almost 90% of the time that I fly there there is a good mix of gliders and paragliders in the air and we've never had any issues before (that I am aware of).  

As you rightly noted, Saturday we had a weak west met wind on the hill with some intermittent weak thermals.  You are also aware that there were a number of people flying radio controller gliders in the bowl to the north of the normal paragliding take-off site, and after I spotted them, I avoided flying in that area as to not interfere with their activities.  The times I was in that area I was at an altitude greater than 590m.  I was well above them and could clearly see their gliders in the air.

I am also a bit confused by your "up and down and all over" statement.  I was in the air for just over an hour, and for about 36 minutes (14:42 - 15:18) of those my flying was confined to a very small area to the south of our normal takeoff and the treeline between Kinnesswood and Scotlandwell.  I was well below ridge height and quite close into the ridge.  As to the "up and down" - that's kind of the core of our sport/hobby?  On my last flight I did fly straight out towards the west to loose height and then back again to the base of the hill to land.  I do have track logs and some video's available if that would help?

You have also alluded to comments elsewhere that there might have been different sites available for paragliders to fly without endangering many.  Attached is the comment for your ease of reference:

"Not directed at your video, but hope to generate/glean some wisdom. We all love flying..and take airmanship seriousley.. but why was a lime green sail flying on Bishops ridge at Portmoak all over the place, all day, and presenting a danger to all on 11 Aug 18, a glider must give way to a paraglider but we have to see them first, there must be other hills that paragliders can use without endangering many. Many glider pilots are early solo and should not have to encounter these obstacles, a added issue was some lost soul was flying remote control aircraft on the ridge at the same time.. I would welcome some debate and critisism or enlightment on the safety aspect . Thank You"

I deem this an unfair comment as there are a number of glider sites dotted around Scotland where you might never encounter a paraglider.

I welcome any criticism from any pilot/person on my flying and airmanship as it is part of the learning curve.  I do, however, request references to more specific actions or incidents in order for me to identify, and address, those issues.  The last thing I want to do is to become a screaming wind chime hanging from the wing of your glider.  I really enjoy flying with gliders - I see them as our sleeker, faster and more graceful bigger brothers.  It would be quite sad to learn that i/we are viewed as an annoyance by glider pilots!

Best,

Bertie Davel     

[K21 K21]

Hi Dann

Thumbs and small keyboards dont work, paramotors have a degree of control better than a glider, paragliders don't, I have no probs with paramotors, but a paraglider in the same airspace is a poor combination, which has led me to comment. I saw the activity on that day as potentially an accident waiting.

With regards and thanks for taking notice of concern

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 09:55 'Daan van Aalten' via SHPF - The Scottish Hang-gliding & Paragliding Federation <sh...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Hi

Thanks for your message. Lots of us in this group regularly fly at Bishop and are keen to do so in a responsible way - we are well aware it is also a

glider site. Your message could be taken to indicate an (almost) incident / annoying behaviour - however without proper use of punctuation it was difficult to deciper, and in general it was quite confusing. For instance, your title suggests a paraMOTOR, whereas the rest of your text seems to imply

a paraGLIDER. Furthermore, it is not clear if you encountered the green "sail" in front of the ridge, in which case it is indeed entirely your responsibility to avoid, or close to/over the airfield, where it shouldn't have been flying. Can you please provide further details in better language?

best wishes

Daan

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 7:10 AM, K21 K21 <dovet...@gmail.com> wrote:

As the title says paramotor bimbles along on his/her way no probs ,any launches out of Portmoak @ that time possibly/likley a areotow for wave flying at that time and visible. But later on Sat 11 Aug 18 the day when the west wind was weak a lime green para glider sail was a major problem, up and down and all over why is it considered that a gliding site that has been there for many years is a good choice for a para glider, we will be struggling to fly the ridge in those conditions, we might not see you, the early solo pilot might not see  you. Basic air safety suggest that gliders deconflict from para gliders, we do have to give way to you but we need to see you first and give us a chance to avoid.

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[Chris Sangwin]

Hi there K21K21,

I'm very sorry you felt there is a potential for conflict between your sailplane and paragliders at Bishop after your flight on 11th Aug.  I'm replying to this thread in my capacity as the safety officer for the LLSC (http://www.llsclub.co.uk/).  

The vast majority of paraglider pilots take their airmanship responsibilities very seriously, and are keen to improve their flying and the safety of aviation generally.  I think the fact the pilot in question replied here so quickly and has offered to share tracklogs/video is a testament to that more general statement.

Paraglliders have been flying Bishop for a very long time, and will continue to do.  Do you also fly paragliders?  I think you might be surprised quite how narrow the range of conditions we need really is.  There are occasions when Bishop might well be the only sensible hill.  On 11th August I was on Bishop and was looking to fly in the morning, but the wind was just too strong.  I couldn't wait until the afternoon, so had to leave at 13:00, which was a shame.  On that day, I judged the only sensible place for us to fly within a 2 hour drive of Edinburgh was Bishop, so while one of the joys of paragliding is the freedom to walk up a hill and fly from it the practical reality is often very different.  We fly on very few days, and unfortunately the conditions which are marginal for sailplanes is our soaring window.

Paragliders and sailplanes are very different aircraft, and I'm very keen to make sure our pilots (LLSC paragliders) understand how sailplanes operate.  E.g. your performance (high speed, but limited turning circle compared to paragliders) is significantly different.  The last thing anyone wants is an accident, or indeed stress which reduces enjoyment and raises the potential for accidents.  

I'm very willing to talk to you in person at Portmoak if you would find that helpful.  Please let me know, and I'd be happy to arrange a time to meet either in Edinburgh (where I'm based) or at the Scottish Gliding Club.

Chris Sangwin